WEBVTT - A Rock Climber's Brush with Death 0:00:14.996 --> 0:00:34.156 Pushkin hay Slight Changers, Happy Fall. Something about this time 0:00:34.196 --> 0:00:37.196 of year gets me feeling a bit more introspective when 0:00:37.196 --> 0:00:41.196 the cold weather arrives. There's something about the change in 0:00:41.276 --> 0:00:45.116 seasons that reminds me that time is passing quickly, and 0:00:45.356 --> 0:00:48.676 I get more philosophical about the choices I'm making in 0:00:48.676 --> 0:00:51.716 my life and about what it even means to live 0:00:51.756 --> 0:00:55.396 a good life. We're back with new episodes that explore 0:00:55.516 --> 0:00:58.316 some of these questions soon, but in the meantime, I 0:00:58.396 --> 0:01:01.236 revisited our archives and found an episode that I wanted 0:01:01.276 --> 0:01:04.676 to share with you. One of my favorite favorite things 0:01:04.716 --> 0:01:07.396 about interviewing people is when I realized that what I've 0:01:07.396 --> 0:01:11.236 read about them publicly does not reflect their internal experience. 0:01:12.116 --> 0:01:14.836 That's what happened when I spoke with Tommy Caldwell, one 0:01:14.876 --> 0:01:18.276 of the best rock climbers in the world. At twenty two. 0:01:18.516 --> 0:01:22.116 Tommy had a near death experience. He was held hostage 0:01:22.156 --> 0:01:25.196 for six days on a climbing trip, and what he 0:01:25.236 --> 0:01:28.636 took away from that experience, well, it kind of blew 0:01:28.676 --> 0:01:31.716 me away. And that's the magic of this show. I 0:01:31.756 --> 0:01:33.796 hope you enjoy. 0:01:44.196 --> 0:01:47.556 I definitely always felt like adversity is what brings us 0:01:47.596 --> 0:01:50.676 to life, but this turned up the volume on that 0:01:50.916 --> 0:01:52.436 in a pretty incredible way. 0:01:53.116 --> 0:01:56.036 That's Tommy Caldwell, who's considered one of the best rock 0:01:56.076 --> 0:01:59.476 climbers in the world. When he was on a climbing expedition, 0:01:59.596 --> 0:02:01.876 he had a near death experience where he was held 0:02:01.956 --> 0:02:05.156 hostage for six days, and he says what he endured 0:02:05.196 --> 0:02:08.436 on that mountain unlocked a completely new state of mind. 0:02:09.316 --> 0:02:10.876 He describes as a flow state. 0:02:11.636 --> 0:02:14.596 To me, that flow state, in its most pure form 0:02:14.836 --> 0:02:20.396 is like this moment where it's almost like everything slows down. 0:02:20.796 --> 0:02:24.436 You feel weightless, you feel like your vision is a cue, 0:02:24.436 --> 0:02:28.596 you notice detail in this incredible way. It's like in 0:02:28.636 --> 0:02:33.356 the moment where all odds are against you, suddenly it's 0:02:33.476 --> 0:02:34.876 like the clarity comes. 0:02:36.076 --> 0:02:39.876 Tommy tapped into this elusive, intoxicating mental state more than 0:02:39.916 --> 0:02:44.076 twenty years ago and he's been relentlessly chasing it ever since. 0:02:45.116 --> 0:02:47.916 I'm maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plans, 0:02:48.356 --> 0:02:50.676 a show that dives deep into the world of change 0:02:50.876 --> 0:02:53.716 and hopefully gets us to think differently about change in 0:02:53.756 --> 0:03:18.196 our own lives. So to jump in, I would love 0:03:18.276 --> 0:03:21.396 to just hear a bit more about how it is 0:03:21.396 --> 0:03:22.436 that you got into climbing. 0:03:22.676 --> 0:03:24.516 I mean, I got into climbing because of my father. 0:03:24.596 --> 0:03:27.876 He was a mountain guy, pretty extraordinary human being. He 0:03:27.916 --> 0:03:32.036 was a bodybuilder in the like eighties and early nineties, 0:03:32.156 --> 0:03:37.476 like big, super macho man. He had this incredible love 0:03:37.476 --> 0:03:41.316 of adventure, and he was a middle school teacher, and 0:03:41.396 --> 0:03:44.556 so he blended all those things together and used me 0:03:44.676 --> 0:03:47.116 kind of as his test subject. Like I was actually, 0:03:48.036 --> 0:03:54.676 at least socially and probably mentally, a pretty meek, delayed 0:03:54.756 --> 0:03:56.676 child in a lot of ways. You know, I'm not 0:03:56.716 --> 0:03:59.596 good at the mental things. You know, I'm socially really 0:03:59.636 --> 0:04:01.676 shy and having a really macho dat. He's like, we 0:04:01.756 --> 0:04:03.956 got to figure out ways to like toughen this kid 0:04:04.036 --> 0:04:06.116 up so that he can deal with the world. And 0:04:06.156 --> 0:04:08.276 he might have overcompensated a little bit. 0:04:08.156 --> 0:04:11.556 But I did not have a cool or adventurous childhood. 0:04:11.556 --> 0:04:13.836 So I'm curious to know what that's like. Like, what's 0:04:13.836 --> 0:04:15.596 an example of something you would do with your dad? 0:04:15.916 --> 0:04:18.236 I mean to a lot of people, my childhood seemed 0:04:18.236 --> 0:04:22.396 pretty insane, especially back then. I mean, one example is 0:04:22.516 --> 0:04:24.996 we heightd to the Lost Arrow Spire, which is the 0:04:25.116 --> 0:04:28.836 spire that sits two thousand feet above the valley floor 0:04:29.596 --> 0:04:32.116 or in you seventy National Park, and we repelled down 0:04:32.196 --> 0:04:34.796 four hundred feet off the rim of Usemni Valley with 0:04:34.876 --> 0:04:37.116 you know, two thousand feet of exposure below us. 0:04:37.396 --> 0:04:37.716 Wow. 0:04:37.756 --> 0:04:40.516 I did this as like maybe six or seven years old. 0:04:41.036 --> 0:04:43.356 Were you scared? Like did this stuff come naturally to you? 0:04:43.516 --> 0:04:44.676 Or was it really hard? 0:04:45.756 --> 0:04:47.956 I think there were There's a couple moments from my 0:04:48.036 --> 0:04:51.836 childhood where I remember feeling pretty scared, like this was 0:04:51.876 --> 0:04:55.196 a bit much. But those were definitely the exceptions. Like 0:04:55.876 --> 0:05:01.356 I developed a sort of fear tolerance that is probably 0:05:01.836 --> 0:05:04.476 part of the reason I've been able to excel the 0:05:04.476 --> 0:05:06.516 way I do now. But there's certainly been times in 0:05:06.556 --> 0:05:08.676 my life where I wonder if it's unhealthy, Like I 0:05:08.756 --> 0:05:10.396 don't get scared when I should. 0:05:12.356 --> 0:05:13.716 But can you say a little more about that? 0:05:14.316 --> 0:05:17.916 Yeah, I mean the types of climbing that I do 0:05:17.996 --> 0:05:20.916 in the higher mountains, like when I go to Patagonia, 0:05:20.956 --> 0:05:24.356 for instance, there's a lot of objective hazard, Like there's 0:05:24.476 --> 0:05:27.916 instances where you're climbing up a mountain and you know, 0:05:28.076 --> 0:05:31.076 some rockfall event happens, and like a big rock will 0:05:31.116 --> 0:05:33.516 fall and land on a ledge twenty feet away from 0:05:33.596 --> 0:05:36.916 you and most people get freaked out by that kind 0:05:36.956 --> 0:05:40.036 of thing, like they have this emotional kind of adrenal reaction, 0:05:40.756 --> 0:05:42.876 and I don't have that so much, And I wonder 0:05:42.916 --> 0:05:44.236 if that's unhealthy. 0:05:44.916 --> 0:05:47.196 Was this just a natural trait that you had or 0:05:47.276 --> 0:05:48.996 did you did you feel like you were building it 0:05:49.036 --> 0:05:50.276 over time as a kid. 0:05:50.716 --> 0:05:52.756 I feel like for me, I was building it over time. 0:05:52.916 --> 0:05:55.516 Like there are certain climbs that I go and do, 0:05:55.956 --> 0:05:59.436 climbs where I might fall twenty thirty fifty feet at 0:05:59.436 --> 0:06:01.236 a time before I get caught from the rope. That 0:06:01.276 --> 0:06:05.036 feels incredibly terrifying at first, early on in the season, 0:06:05.116 --> 0:06:07.436 but I get more and more used to it over time. 0:06:07.436 --> 0:06:09.676 So I think that can happen within a season or 0:06:09.716 --> 0:06:11.356 on a certain climb, but I think it can also 0:06:11.436 --> 0:06:14.636 happen in a way over the length of your life. 0:06:14.716 --> 0:06:17.676 And so since I started really young doing this stuff, 0:06:17.916 --> 0:06:20.716 I believe that that's why I am the way I am. 0:06:20.756 --> 0:06:24.636 I guess, Yeah, it's so interesting, as you were simply 0:06:24.676 --> 0:06:27.516 describing that, I felt tingles in my fingers and a 0:06:27.596 --> 0:06:32.076 pit in my stomach imagining being at that height. So sadly, yeah, 0:06:32.076 --> 0:06:34.756 I think my brain architecture is slightly different from yours. 0:06:35.036 --> 0:06:36.876 Yeah, yeah, it's probably more healthy your way. 0:06:36.956 --> 0:06:41.116 Honestly, When Tommy's twenty two, he gets invited to go 0:06:41.196 --> 0:06:43.996 on a climbing trip with three other climbers to Kyrghyzstan, 0:06:44.436 --> 0:06:48.956 this beautiful mountainous country in Central Asia. Tommy being Tommy, 0:06:49.076 --> 0:06:51.756 is of course excited for the challenge, but the real 0:06:51.836 --> 0:06:54.356 reason he wants to go is because of another climber 0:06:54.356 --> 0:06:55.796 on the trip, Death Rowden. 0:06:56.276 --> 0:06:59.316 Yeah, that was certainly my main motivation behind the trip. 0:06:59.356 --> 0:07:01.876 I would say, we're really really kind of early on 0:07:01.916 --> 0:07:03.596 in our dating period at that time. 0:07:03.476 --> 0:07:06.236 So this was during the like still wooing her stage. 0:07:06.276 --> 0:07:07.956 Is that why you were so excited to go? 0:07:08.236 --> 0:07:08.716 Absolutely? 0:07:08.836 --> 0:07:13.676 Yeah, Okay, got it. So can you paint a little 0:07:13.716 --> 0:07:16.436 bit of a scene for me about when you first 0:07:16.436 --> 0:07:18.596 survived in Kyrgusan, Like what is it like and what 0:07:18.676 --> 0:07:19.876 climbing lies ahead of you? 0:07:20.316 --> 0:07:23.396 Yeah, so we flew in, come around this corner and 0:07:23.436 --> 0:07:27.716 we see these magnificent snow covered peaks. If you've ever 0:07:27.756 --> 0:07:31.476 been in a region like the Himalayas or something, the mountains, 0:07:31.476 --> 0:07:35.116 they are just so big and so beautiful that it's surreal. 0:07:35.156 --> 0:07:36.956 I mean, it looks like you're looking at a painting, 0:07:36.996 --> 0:07:40.236 it looks completely unreal. And so those big snow covered 0:07:40.236 --> 0:07:43.236 mountains are in the background, and then these big rock spires, 0:07:43.276 --> 0:07:45.836 these incredible rock spires with perfect rock, the kind of 0:07:45.836 --> 0:07:48.716 thing that climbers dream of, were kind of in the foreground. 0:07:48.836 --> 0:07:51.316 So we flew and there was a bit of a 0:07:51.396 --> 0:07:54.916 valley kind of below all of the rock spires, and 0:07:54.996 --> 0:07:58.436 so that's where we made our base camp. And some 0:07:58.516 --> 0:08:00.996 of the people that live in the valley came and 0:08:01.076 --> 0:08:04.676 visited with us and brought us, you know, yak milk 0:08:04.716 --> 0:08:08.356 and butter and fresh baked bread, and it was like, yeah, 0:08:08.356 --> 0:08:11.156 it was svidible. Yeah, it was pretty idealistic, like they 0:08:11.756 --> 0:08:15.116 had they had encountered climbing teams like us in the past, 0:08:15.156 --> 0:08:16.916 because this is the place that people had been coming 0:08:16.916 --> 0:08:20.516 and climbing for ten or fifteen years, so we knew 0:08:20.516 --> 0:08:23.236 that we would encounter them. So we brought toys to 0:08:23.236 --> 0:08:28.636 play with the kids and bits of candy and stuff. Yeah, 0:08:28.636 --> 0:08:31.596 it was It was absolutely beautiful, certainly sort of a 0:08:31.676 --> 0:08:34.636 dream trip. Everything I kind of expected and hoped for 0:08:34.796 --> 0:08:35.676 at first. 0:08:36.876 --> 0:08:39.476 Can you describe the moment when you realized that you 0:08:39.516 --> 0:08:40.196 were in danger. 0:08:42.196 --> 0:08:46.396 Yeah, So it was very distinct. We had been in 0:08:46.436 --> 0:08:50.236 the valley for five or six days. We had sort 0:08:50.236 --> 0:08:53.156 of walked around and scoped the rocks and decided that 0:08:53.196 --> 0:08:54.796 we were going to do our warm up climb on 0:08:54.836 --> 0:08:57.676 this mountain, which is about a two thousand foot nearly 0:08:57.796 --> 0:09:00.436 vertical rock cliff. And then we had spent the first 0:09:00.476 --> 0:09:03.116 day climbing about halfway up that wall, so a thousand 0:09:03.196 --> 0:09:06.076 feet up. We you know, the style of climbing were doing. 0:09:06.116 --> 0:09:08.476 You climb one hundred or two hundred feet up, and 0:09:08.516 --> 0:09:11.996 then you haul all of your equipment up, which is food, water, 0:09:12.596 --> 0:09:15.916 portal ledges. There's no horizontal places to sleep, so you 0:09:15.956 --> 0:09:17.916 set up your porta ledges, and we had this hanging 0:09:18.036 --> 0:09:21.276 camp a thousand feet up this wall. And that was 0:09:21.316 --> 0:09:24.316 actually the night of my birthday. Beth presents me with 0:09:24.356 --> 0:09:27.756 this candle, we seeing Happy birthday. It's like there's no 0:09:27.916 --> 0:09:30.876 light pollution at all in this place because you're literally 0:09:30.916 --> 0:09:36.516 fifty miles from the nearest source of electricity, and the 0:09:36.596 --> 0:09:39.356 stars are brilliant and these you know, the moonlight is 0:09:39.396 --> 0:09:43.476 illuminating these these snow covered peaks up valley, and it's yeah, 0:09:43.516 --> 0:09:46.876 it's a pretty incredible scene. So we go to beds, 0:09:46.996 --> 0:09:51.076 feeling like everything's great. And then at very first light 0:09:51.116 --> 0:09:54.716 the next morning, we awake to gunshots, like just startled 0:09:54.756 --> 0:09:58.156 awake to gunshots. And first we thought that it was 0:09:59.036 --> 0:10:02.196 just some hunters in the valley, probably, but then bullets 0:10:02.236 --> 0:10:04.156 started to hit this roof of rock that was right 0:10:04.196 --> 0:10:06.796 above us, and so we realized they were actually shooting 0:10:06.836 --> 0:10:07.156 at us. 0:10:07.196 --> 0:10:07.996 They were close by. 0:10:09.236 --> 0:10:12.156 We had a big camera with us with a long 0:10:12.196 --> 0:10:15.276 telephoto lens, and so we pulled out that camera and 0:10:15.316 --> 0:10:17.836 we could look down to the ground, almost like looking 0:10:17.836 --> 0:10:22.596 through you know, binoculars, and we could see these heavily 0:10:22.756 --> 0:10:26.276 armed militants on the ground. We felt very vulnerable, like 0:10:26.316 --> 0:10:28.636 we're expecting bullets to just rip through the bottom of 0:10:28.636 --> 0:10:29.956 the portal edge at any moment. 0:10:30.796 --> 0:10:35.316 Wow. So in that moment, are you thinking, Okay, they 0:10:35.396 --> 0:10:39.036 might have missed slightly with the first few shots, but 0:10:39.476 --> 0:10:40.476 you know we're going to die. 0:10:40.796 --> 0:10:43.276 Yeah, that's exactly what we're worried about. There's no way 0:10:43.276 --> 0:10:45.796 to run away. I mean, it's just complete vulnerability. It's 0:10:45.796 --> 0:10:49.196 like somebody's shooting at you and you can't hide behind anything. 0:10:50.396 --> 0:10:53.196 Yeah, you're literally a fix to a vertical wall in 0:10:53.316 --> 0:10:55.716 a tent right there. There's literally no escape. 0:10:55.476 --> 0:10:58.556 Route, right, yeah, I mean moving out of the way. 0:10:58.596 --> 0:11:00.676 It would have been you know, a several hour process 0:11:00.756 --> 0:11:04.236 to just get up and around the corner or something. 0:11:05.036 --> 0:11:08.116 Okay, So then so you hear this these gunshots. What 0:11:08.196 --> 0:11:10.636 happens next. 0:11:10.316 --> 0:11:13.116 Through our telephoto camera lens, we see them sort of 0:11:13.196 --> 0:11:17.276 waving at us to come down, and we know that 0:11:18.036 --> 0:11:20.676 we have no other option. Basically, they've got these big guns. 0:11:20.716 --> 0:11:24.476 They've proved that they're good shots with these guns, and 0:11:24.556 --> 0:11:26.556 so we're like, we have to go down. So we 0:11:26.596 --> 0:11:29.756 have a discussion and we decide that John Dickey, who 0:11:29.796 --> 0:11:33.156 is the oldest member of our expedition, will go down 0:11:33.236 --> 0:11:35.236 and try and talk to them. We're just trying to 0:11:35.236 --> 0:11:37.996 be super optimistic at this point. Maybe they just want information, 0:11:38.116 --> 0:11:42.556 we don't really know. And so John starts descending down 0:11:42.596 --> 0:11:46.676 the wall. Takes him probably nearly an hour, and he 0:11:46.836 --> 0:11:49.236 gets down there and we have these two way radios 0:11:49.236 --> 0:11:51.276 and he had taken one of them. When he gets 0:11:51.316 --> 0:11:55.916 down there, he just sounds very serious. He radios back 0:11:55.956 --> 0:11:57.876 to us and he's like, you guys are just gonna 0:11:57.876 --> 0:12:01.036 have to come down. So the other three of us 0:12:01.076 --> 0:12:03.916 just start descending down the wall and When we get 0:12:03.956 --> 0:12:06.916 to the ground, we're confronted with a pretty scary scene. 0:12:06.956 --> 0:12:11.516 I would say there's two heavily armed men that are 0:12:11.596 --> 0:12:17.036 wearing this combination of like army fatigues, so they look 0:12:17.116 --> 0:12:20.636 pretty scary, but their demeanor is actually pretty chill. They 0:12:20.676 --> 0:12:23.916 wait for us. We get to the ground and they're 0:12:23.956 --> 0:12:26.396 just kind of sitting around, not really saying that much, 0:12:26.436 --> 0:12:28.876 and then they just kind of wave us on to 0:12:28.956 --> 0:12:30.396 follow them back to base camp. 0:12:31.236 --> 0:12:33.316 A conflict had broken out in the country between the 0:12:33.396 --> 0:12:37.116 Krgeese Army and the Islamic Movement of Zbekistan. Up on 0:12:37.116 --> 0:12:39.796 the mountain, a small group of the militants had captured 0:12:39.796 --> 0:12:42.556 a KRGEE soldier, and when Tommy and the rest of 0:12:42.556 --> 0:12:44.996 his climbing crew were forced down the mountain, they were 0:12:45.036 --> 0:12:46.876 able to get a closer look at the soldier. 0:12:47.396 --> 0:12:51.036 He just looked very stern, you know, he looked kind 0:12:51.076 --> 0:12:53.596 of scared and very stern, and he had blood all 0:12:53.596 --> 0:12:56.076 over his pants. And I think there was at one 0:12:56.116 --> 0:12:58.036 moment in there where John looked over at us and 0:12:58.076 --> 0:13:01.236 he's like, we're hostages. I think we're hostages, And so 0:13:01.796 --> 0:13:03.076 that's kind of when it struck us. 0:13:03.956 --> 0:13:06.916 The militants waste no time. They lead Tommy and Beth 0:13:06.956 --> 0:13:09.396 and the other climbers into the mountain side a point, 0:13:09.996 --> 0:13:12.116 and as they start to cross the river, a group 0:13:12.116 --> 0:13:14.556 of Kirki soldiers appear at the top of the hill 0:13:15.036 --> 0:13:16.596 and start shooting at them. 0:13:16.836 --> 0:13:20.156 This battle breaks out essentially, and we hide in this bush, 0:13:20.276 --> 0:13:24.796 and Beth and myself and this Kurky soldier end up 0:13:24.796 --> 0:13:27.796 in this bush together. The next thing that happened is 0:13:27.876 --> 0:13:31.796 the rebels told us one by one to run up 0:13:31.836 --> 0:13:36.916 behind this boulder, and the Kirky soldier went first, and 0:13:37.116 --> 0:13:39.036 as soon as he got up behind the boulder, we 0:13:39.116 --> 0:13:43.076 heard these handgun shots which were different than the rifle shots, 0:13:43.076 --> 0:13:45.436 and they had just shot him in the shot him 0:13:45.436 --> 0:13:47.716 in the head right there, and then the rest of 0:13:47.796 --> 0:13:49.556 us had to go up and hide behind that boulder. 0:13:49.556 --> 0:13:52.356 As this battle sort of erupted around us. It was 0:13:52.396 --> 0:13:55.356 a full on like war scene. We're hiding behind this boulder. 0:13:55.596 --> 0:13:58.236 The boulder was getting you know, bullets were ricocheting off 0:13:58.276 --> 0:14:01.036 the boulder. We were behind it, sitting on the dead 0:14:01.076 --> 0:14:04.836 body of this other Kurky soldier, and they were shooting 0:14:04.836 --> 0:14:09.116 these these mortars across at us. I mean, we were 0:14:09.196 --> 0:14:10.956 kind of certain that we're going to die at any moment. 0:14:12.916 --> 0:14:17.316 I'm just imagining the juxtaposition of going from these immensely 0:14:17.956 --> 0:14:23.876 peaceful climbs in this expansive valley to absolute life or 0:14:23.876 --> 0:14:26.276 death insanity. What do you remember feeling? 0:14:27.116 --> 0:14:30.556 Definitely riting on adrenaline, totally surreal. I feel like that 0:14:30.716 --> 0:14:34.556 is not like the rest of life at all. And 0:14:34.596 --> 0:14:38.716 I think it was fear that was more intense and 0:14:38.836 --> 0:14:41.076 far different than anything I had noticed. Like in some 0:14:41.156 --> 0:14:44.156 ways I was used to dealing with fear because of 0:14:44.196 --> 0:14:46.716 my climbing life, but this was just way different. 0:14:47.716 --> 0:14:50.036 Tommy, Beth and their crew managed to make it out 0:14:50.036 --> 0:14:53.396 of this skirmish alive, but they're still being held captive 0:14:53.436 --> 0:14:57.036 by two militant rebels. They can't communicate with their captors 0:14:57.036 --> 0:14:59.676 because they don't speak the same language, but from what 0:14:59.716 --> 0:15:02.236 they can glean, there's an older guy who seems to 0:15:02.236 --> 0:15:06.276 be in charge, and then a teenager named Scheripov. During 0:15:06.316 --> 0:15:09.116 the day, the militants lead them around in what ultimately 0:15:09.236 --> 0:15:12.636 ends up being a big circle looking for hiding places. 0:15:12.916 --> 0:15:14.876 And we don't have any food. We had We had 0:15:14.876 --> 0:15:16.996 to abandon all of our food, except I had managed 0:15:16.996 --> 0:15:20.196 to shove like five or six energy bars into my pocket. 0:15:20.356 --> 0:15:23.196 So each day we would in the evening, we would 0:15:23.236 --> 0:15:26.156 split one of those energy bars between the six of us, 0:15:26.436 --> 0:15:28.836 and that's the only food we had, and we do 0:15:29.556 --> 0:15:31.236 kind of feel like we're all in it together, like 0:15:31.316 --> 0:15:33.596 we share our food with them. They didn't just take 0:15:33.596 --> 0:15:35.996 all of our food. They shared it with us, those 0:15:36.076 --> 0:15:39.876 six you know, energy bars that we had, and the 0:15:39.956 --> 0:15:43.996 demeanor became pretty friendly a lot of the time. And 0:15:44.076 --> 0:15:48.636 then during the daylight hours, we would hide in usually 0:15:48.716 --> 0:15:52.916 just absolutely miserable hiding spots like you know, by rivers, 0:15:53.076 --> 0:15:56.916 under boulders. It was always super cold, you know, our 0:15:56.956 --> 0:16:00.236 teeth were chattering all day long, every day, to the 0:16:00.236 --> 0:16:03.076 point where where our jaws and our mouths got really 0:16:03.116 --> 0:16:06.756 sort We'd be sitting there hiding for fourteen hours of 0:16:06.836 --> 0:16:08.876 daylight or whatever, and it would feel like a week. 0:16:09.596 --> 0:16:11.516 Did you ever worry that you were going to die 0:16:11.556 --> 0:16:15.036 of hypothermia, so it's not just the potential of being killed, 0:16:15.076 --> 0:16:17.436 but also you just might die from extreme conditions. 0:16:17.796 --> 0:16:20.436 Yeah, no, that was definitely a worry of ours. We 0:16:20.436 --> 0:16:23.356 were probably on the verge most of the time, and 0:16:23.636 --> 0:16:27.636 we're at a point where we can't really just sit 0:16:27.676 --> 0:16:31.156 through these conditions. Anymore. But then weirdly, at times, I 0:16:31.156 --> 0:16:33.676 think this is sort of a proven thing that happens 0:16:33.916 --> 0:16:37.036 when you go through this severe hunger, is you have 0:16:37.116 --> 0:16:39.996 these moments of like mental clarity, like you feel like 0:16:40.116 --> 0:16:43.876 you are almost more alive than ever as you're starving 0:16:43.916 --> 0:16:45.796 to death, your body just sort of starts to kick 0:16:45.836 --> 0:16:50.276 into this like survival mode, and so you sort of 0:16:50.356 --> 0:16:54.116 an alternate between that and then other times of just 0:16:54.116 --> 0:16:58.196 feeling really lethargic and really slow and you know, really hungry. 0:16:58.916 --> 0:17:01.196 So we just traveled around like that for six nights, 0:17:01.236 --> 0:17:05.756 getting progressively weaker, and then finally on that last night, 0:17:06.036 --> 0:17:08.716 things are pretty desperate, and so we were left on 0:17:08.756 --> 0:17:14.596 this with just the young scared soldier Serpov, and told 0:17:14.636 --> 0:17:17.716 to climb up this incredibly steep mountain. It was you know, 0:17:17.876 --> 0:17:20.316 true rock climbing, Like it was kind of terrain that 0:17:20.356 --> 0:17:22.556 if you fell on it didn't seem like you would stop. 0:17:22.636 --> 0:17:25.156 You would just continue falling until you got you know, 0:17:25.196 --> 0:17:27.396 bouncing down the mountain until you got to the bottom. 0:17:27.876 --> 0:17:32.316 And sherif Pov was really scared, we were actually having 0:17:32.356 --> 0:17:36.276 to lead the way because we were climbers. We would 0:17:36.356 --> 0:17:38.316 you know, grab his hand and pull him up over 0:17:39.076 --> 0:17:42.356 rock steps. We would point out footholds for him to 0:17:42.356 --> 0:17:44.436 step on. We would sort of spot him in case 0:17:44.476 --> 0:17:46.396 he stumbled, we could catch him so he didn't just 0:17:46.396 --> 0:17:49.876 fall down the mountain. And so in all of our 0:17:49.916 --> 0:17:52.876 minds like if there was a time to escape, this 0:17:53.036 --> 0:17:53.276 was it. 0:17:54.596 --> 0:17:57.836 So I'm curious, and it seems like the very natural 0:17:57.916 --> 0:18:01.036 instinct to help others was kicking in for you. Right, 0:18:01.076 --> 0:18:04.396 you're spotting this guy, you're leading the way, you're helping him. 0:18:05.196 --> 0:18:08.916 Who were these competing feelings towards him and the situation 0:18:09.876 --> 0:18:13.316 leading to kind of bizarre behaviors in you. It's so fascinating, 0:18:13.396 --> 0:18:16.676 right that you can build this kind of camaraderie with 0:18:16.756 --> 0:18:19.476 a person who might ultimately lead to your death, if 0:18:19.516 --> 0:18:21.796 you have that kind of empathy towards their circumstance and 0:18:21.836 --> 0:18:22.516 their situation. 0:18:23.796 --> 0:18:26.636 I mean, I think it felt different at different times, 0:18:26.676 --> 0:18:28.676 Like at times I was like, we should outlast this, 0:18:28.756 --> 0:18:31.156 We should be good human beings as long as we can. 0:18:31.476 --> 0:18:33.636 In a way, these rebels, I didn't see them as 0:18:33.916 --> 0:18:37.156 super evil people, especially Cherpov who were with like he 0:18:37.196 --> 0:18:39.116 was just he was younger, or he was probably about 0:18:39.156 --> 0:18:40.916 my age or maybe even younger. I think he was 0:18:41.236 --> 0:18:43.916 eighteen years old at the time. He was a hired mercenary. 0:18:43.956 --> 0:18:47.596 He was obviously super frightened himself, you know. He like, 0:18:47.596 --> 0:18:49.796 who's to say, if I didn't grow up in a circumstance, 0:18:49.796 --> 0:18:51.796 I wouldn't have been right there with him. So I 0:18:51.876 --> 0:18:54.236 thought it was sort of morally wrong to try and 0:18:54.276 --> 0:18:57.276 take these guys' lives. But I think on this last night, 0:18:57.436 --> 0:19:00.116 clouds started to roll in. I started to raigin a 0:19:00.156 --> 0:19:02.396 tiny bit, and all of us were like, if we 0:19:02.436 --> 0:19:04.796 don't escape this scene pretty soon, we are going to 0:19:04.796 --> 0:19:08.036 succumb to hypothermia. Yeah, So as we were getting to 0:19:08.116 --> 0:19:12.516 the top of the mountain, I knew that our opportunity 0:19:12.556 --> 0:19:16.156 to push him was going to be gone soon. And 0:19:16.516 --> 0:19:20.476 Beth had been adamantly against killing somebody this whole time, 0:19:20.516 --> 0:19:23.436 but it was getting pretty dire. So I looked over 0:19:23.476 --> 0:19:26.276 her when we're at her, when we were maybe fifty 0:19:26.396 --> 0:19:28.196 or one hundred feet below the top of this mountain, 0:19:28.196 --> 0:19:30.436 and I was like, do you think I should And 0:19:30.476 --> 0:19:32.916 she didn't say anything, which to me that meant that 0:19:32.956 --> 0:19:34.956 she thought she'd come around, like she thought that this 0:19:35.116 --> 0:19:38.956 was probably the right thing to do. And so when 0:19:38.996 --> 0:19:42.596 he saw the top of the mountain kind of close. 0:19:42.676 --> 0:19:45.076 He got a little bit excited. He started to sort 0:19:45.116 --> 0:19:48.476 of rush up ahead of all of us. He is 0:19:48.516 --> 0:19:54.276 in Sharapov, and I then started to sort of sneak 0:19:54.356 --> 0:19:58.756 up behind him. And he was so focused on like 0:19:58.996 --> 0:20:00.956 staying attached to the mountain, you know, like grabbing the 0:20:00.996 --> 0:20:02.836 right hand holds and stuff, that he really didn't even 0:20:02.876 --> 0:20:04.996 notice me. And I ran up behind him, and I 0:20:05.076 --> 0:20:08.516 just grabbed his gun strap and just tugged backwards on it, 0:20:08.556 --> 0:20:11.196 and he started to off the mountain side. He fell 0:20:11.716 --> 0:20:14.476 about twenty feet, hit this ledge that was below us, 0:20:14.516 --> 0:20:16.516 bounced off of it like the sloping ledge, and then 0:20:17.116 --> 0:20:20.716 out of sight, just in the blackness. 0:20:22.276 --> 0:20:24.796 We'll be right back. With a slight change of plans, 0:20:28.676 --> 0:20:31.436 I'm maya shunker, and this is a slight change of plans. 0:20:32.316 --> 0:20:35.036 Tommy Caldwells made the bold decision to push one of 0:20:35.036 --> 0:20:38.636 his captors off the cliff. Years later, a journalist working 0:20:38.716 --> 0:20:41.796 on the story discovers that Cherapov did not actually die 0:20:41.836 --> 0:20:44.956 from the fall, but at the time, Tommy assumes he's 0:20:45.036 --> 0:20:48.396 killed Schherapov, and for Tommy, the reality of what he 0:20:48.516 --> 0:20:50.556 just did comes crashing down on him. 0:20:51.036 --> 0:20:53.956 It's just like this flood of emotion is going through me. 0:20:53.996 --> 0:20:57.076 I like can't believe what I've just done. I remember 0:20:57.156 --> 0:21:02.476 like closing my eyes incredibly tight and like seeing like 0:21:02.596 --> 0:21:06.356 weird starry visions. I mean, it was just like it's 0:21:06.396 --> 0:21:10.036 almost hard to explain it. It was just like emotionally 0:21:10.156 --> 0:21:12.556 overwhelming way that I've never experienced. 0:21:12.596 --> 0:21:12.796 You know. 0:21:13.556 --> 0:21:17.116 Beth was really comforting me. I mean she'd like, I, 0:21:17.196 --> 0:21:18.796 like I said, I was deeply in love with this woman, 0:21:18.836 --> 0:21:21.116 and she was, and I didn't know she'd suddenly think 0:21:21.156 --> 0:21:23.076 that I was like this evil person because we hadn't 0:21:23.116 --> 0:21:24.716 really been able to talk it out what I was 0:21:24.756 --> 0:21:26.756 about to do. So she was the one who was like, 0:21:26.796 --> 0:21:30.236 you're You're my hero. You We're gonna be okay because 0:21:30.276 --> 0:21:32.396 of you, and trying to say the right things to 0:21:32.436 --> 0:21:33.556 help me in that moment. 0:21:34.516 --> 0:21:37.116 The moment doesn't last long, though, with one of their 0:21:37.156 --> 0:21:39.396 captors pushed off the mountain and the other one out 0:21:39.396 --> 0:21:41.836