1 00:00:14,996 --> 00:00:34,156 Speaker 1: Pushkin hay Slight Changers, Happy Fall. Something about this time 2 00:00:34,196 --> 00:00:37,196 Speaker 1: of year gets me feeling a bit more introspective when 3 00:00:37,196 --> 00:00:41,196 Speaker 1: the cold weather arrives. There's something about the change in 4 00:00:41,276 --> 00:00:45,116 Speaker 1: seasons that reminds me that time is passing quickly, and 5 00:00:45,356 --> 00:00:48,676 Speaker 1: I get more philosophical about the choices I'm making in 6 00:00:48,676 --> 00:00:51,716 Speaker 1: my life and about what it even means to live 7 00:00:51,756 --> 00:00:55,396 Speaker 1: a good life. We're back with new episodes that explore 8 00:00:55,516 --> 00:00:58,316 Speaker 1: some of these questions soon, but in the meantime, I 9 00:00:58,396 --> 00:01:01,236 Speaker 1: revisited our archives and found an episode that I wanted 10 00:01:01,276 --> 00:01:04,676 Speaker 1: to share with you. One of my favorite favorite things 11 00:01:04,716 --> 00:01:07,396 Speaker 1: about interviewing people is when I realized that what I've 12 00:01:07,396 --> 00:01:11,236 Speaker 1: read about them publicly does not reflect their internal experience. 13 00:01:12,116 --> 00:01:14,836 Speaker 1: That's what happened when I spoke with Tommy Caldwell, one 14 00:01:14,876 --> 00:01:18,276 Speaker 1: of the best rock climbers in the world. At twenty two. 15 00:01:18,516 --> 00:01:22,116 Speaker 1: Tommy had a near death experience. He was held hostage 16 00:01:22,156 --> 00:01:25,196 Speaker 1: for six days on a climbing trip, and what he 17 00:01:25,236 --> 00:01:28,636 Speaker 1: took away from that experience, well, it kind of blew 18 00:01:28,676 --> 00:01:31,716 Speaker 1: me away. And that's the magic of this show. I 19 00:01:31,756 --> 00:01:33,796 Speaker 1: hope you enjoy. 20 00:01:44,196 --> 00:01:47,556 Speaker 2: I definitely always felt like adversity is what brings us 21 00:01:47,596 --> 00:01:50,676 Speaker 2: to life, but this turned up the volume on that 22 00:01:50,916 --> 00:01:52,436 Speaker 2: in a pretty incredible way. 23 00:01:53,116 --> 00:01:56,036 Speaker 1: That's Tommy Caldwell, who's considered one of the best rock 24 00:01:56,076 --> 00:01:59,476 Speaker 1: climbers in the world. When he was on a climbing expedition, 25 00:01:59,596 --> 00:02:01,876 Speaker 1: he had a near death experience where he was held 26 00:02:01,956 --> 00:02:05,156 Speaker 1: hostage for six days, and he says what he endured 27 00:02:05,196 --> 00:02:08,436 Speaker 1: on that mountain unlocked a completely new state of mind. 28 00:02:09,316 --> 00:02:10,876 Speaker 1: He describes as a flow state. 29 00:02:11,636 --> 00:02:14,596 Speaker 2: To me, that flow state, in its most pure form 30 00:02:14,836 --> 00:02:20,396 Speaker 2: is like this moment where it's almost like everything slows down. 31 00:02:20,796 --> 00:02:24,436 Speaker 2: You feel weightless, you feel like your vision is a cue, 32 00:02:24,436 --> 00:02:28,596 Speaker 2: you notice detail in this incredible way. It's like in 33 00:02:28,636 --> 00:02:33,356 Speaker 2: the moment where all odds are against you, suddenly it's 34 00:02:33,476 --> 00:02:34,876 Speaker 2: like the clarity comes. 35 00:02:36,076 --> 00:02:39,876 Speaker 1: Tommy tapped into this elusive, intoxicating mental state more than 36 00:02:39,916 --> 00:02:44,076 Speaker 1: twenty years ago and he's been relentlessly chasing it ever since. 37 00:02:45,116 --> 00:02:47,916 Speaker 1: I'm maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plans, 38 00:02:48,356 --> 00:02:50,676 Speaker 1: a show that dives deep into the world of change 39 00:02:50,876 --> 00:02:53,716 Speaker 1: and hopefully gets us to think differently about change in 40 00:02:53,756 --> 00:03:18,196 Speaker 1: our own lives. So to jump in, I would love 41 00:03:18,276 --> 00:03:21,396 Speaker 1: to just hear a bit more about how it is 42 00:03:21,396 --> 00:03:22,436 Speaker 1: that you got into climbing. 43 00:03:22,676 --> 00:03:24,516 Speaker 2: I mean, I got into climbing because of my father. 44 00:03:24,596 --> 00:03:27,876 Speaker 2: He was a mountain guy, pretty extraordinary human being. He 45 00:03:27,916 --> 00:03:32,036 Speaker 2: was a bodybuilder in the like eighties and early nineties, 46 00:03:32,156 --> 00:03:37,476 Speaker 2: like big, super macho man. He had this incredible love 47 00:03:37,476 --> 00:03:41,316 Speaker 2: of adventure, and he was a middle school teacher, and 48 00:03:41,396 --> 00:03:44,556 Speaker 2: so he blended all those things together and used me 49 00:03:44,676 --> 00:03:47,116 Speaker 2: kind of as his test subject. Like I was actually, 50 00:03:48,036 --> 00:03:54,676 Speaker 2: at least socially and probably mentally, a pretty meek, delayed 51 00:03:54,756 --> 00:03:56,676 Speaker 2: child in a lot of ways. You know, I'm not 52 00:03:56,716 --> 00:03:59,596 Speaker 2: good at the mental things. You know, I'm socially really 53 00:03:59,636 --> 00:04:01,676 Speaker 2: shy and having a really macho dat. He's like, we 54 00:04:01,756 --> 00:04:03,956 Speaker 2: got to figure out ways to like toughen this kid 55 00:04:04,036 --> 00:04:06,116 Speaker 2: up so that he can deal with the world. And 56 00:04:06,156 --> 00:04:08,276 Speaker 2: he might have overcompensated a little bit. 57 00:04:08,156 --> 00:04:11,556 Speaker 1: But I did not have a cool or adventurous childhood. 58 00:04:11,556 --> 00:04:13,836 Speaker 1: So I'm curious to know what that's like. Like, what's 59 00:04:13,836 --> 00:04:15,596 Speaker 1: an example of something you would do with your dad? 60 00:04:15,916 --> 00:04:18,236 Speaker 2: I mean to a lot of people, my childhood seemed 61 00:04:18,236 --> 00:04:22,396 Speaker 2: pretty insane, especially back then. I mean, one example is 62 00:04:22,516 --> 00:04:24,996 Speaker 2: we heightd to the Lost Arrow Spire, which is the 63 00:04:25,116 --> 00:04:28,836 Speaker 2: spire that sits two thousand feet above the valley floor 64 00:04:29,596 --> 00:04:32,116 Speaker 2: or in you seventy National Park, and we repelled down 65 00:04:32,196 --> 00:04:34,796 Speaker 2: four hundred feet off the rim of Usemni Valley with 66 00:04:34,876 --> 00:04:37,116 Speaker 2: you know, two thousand feet of exposure below us. 67 00:04:37,396 --> 00:04:37,716 Speaker 1: Wow. 68 00:04:37,756 --> 00:04:40,516 Speaker 2: I did this as like maybe six or seven years old. 69 00:04:41,036 --> 00:04:43,356 Speaker 1: Were you scared? Like did this stuff come naturally to you? 70 00:04:43,516 --> 00:04:44,676 Speaker 1: Or was it really hard? 71 00:04:45,756 --> 00:04:47,956 Speaker 2: I think there were There's a couple moments from my 72 00:04:48,036 --> 00:04:51,836 Speaker 2: childhood where I remember feeling pretty scared, like this was 73 00:04:51,876 --> 00:04:55,196 Speaker 2: a bit much. But those were definitely the exceptions. Like 74 00:04:55,876 --> 00:05:01,356 Speaker 2: I developed a sort of fear tolerance that is probably 75 00:05:01,836 --> 00:05:04,476 Speaker 2: part of the reason I've been able to excel the 76 00:05:04,476 --> 00:05:06,516 Speaker 2: way I do now. But there's certainly been times in 77 00:05:06,556 --> 00:05:08,676 Speaker 2: my life where I wonder if it's unhealthy, Like I 78 00:05:08,756 --> 00:05:10,396 Speaker 2: don't get scared when I should. 79 00:05:12,356 --> 00:05:13,716 Speaker 1: But can you say a little more about that? 80 00:05:14,316 --> 00:05:17,916 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the types of climbing that I do 81 00:05:17,996 --> 00:05:20,916 Speaker 2: in the higher mountains, like when I go to Patagonia, 82 00:05:20,956 --> 00:05:24,356 Speaker 2: for instance, there's a lot of objective hazard, Like there's 83 00:05:24,476 --> 00:05:27,916 Speaker 2: instances where you're climbing up a mountain and you know, 84 00:05:28,076 --> 00:05:31,076 Speaker 2: some rockfall event happens, and like a big rock will 85 00:05:31,116 --> 00:05:33,516 Speaker 2: fall and land on a ledge twenty feet away from 86 00:05:33,596 --> 00:05:36,916 Speaker 2: you and most people get freaked out by that kind 87 00:05:36,956 --> 00:05:40,036 Speaker 2: of thing, like they have this emotional kind of adrenal reaction, 88 00:05:40,756 --> 00:05:42,876 Speaker 2: and I don't have that so much, And I wonder 89 00:05:42,916 --> 00:05:44,236 Speaker 2: if that's unhealthy. 90 00:05:44,916 --> 00:05:47,196 Speaker 1: Was this just a natural trait that you had or 91 00:05:47,276 --> 00:05:48,996 Speaker 1: did you did you feel like you were building it 92 00:05:49,036 --> 00:05:50,276 Speaker 1: over time as a kid. 93 00:05:50,716 --> 00:05:52,756 Speaker 2: I feel like for me, I was building it over time. 94 00:05:52,916 --> 00:05:55,516 Speaker 2: Like there are certain climbs that I go and do, 95 00:05:55,956 --> 00:05:59,436 Speaker 2: climbs where I might fall twenty thirty fifty feet at 96 00:05:59,436 --> 00:06:01,236 Speaker 2: a time before I get caught from the rope. That 97 00:06:01,276 --> 00:06:05,036 Speaker 2: feels incredibly terrifying at first, early on in the season, 98 00:06:05,116 --> 00:06:07,436 Speaker 2: but I get more and more used to it over time. 99 00:06:07,436 --> 00:06:09,676 Speaker 2: So I think that can happen within a season or 100 00:06:09,716 --> 00:06:11,356 Speaker 2: on a certain climb, but I think it can also 101 00:06:11,436 --> 00:06:14,636 Speaker 2: happen in a way over the length of your life. 102 00:06:14,716 --> 00:06:17,676 Speaker 2: And so since I started really young doing this stuff, 103 00:06:17,916 --> 00:06:20,716 Speaker 2: I believe that that's why I am the way I am. 104 00:06:20,756 --> 00:06:24,636 Speaker 1: I guess, Yeah, it's so interesting, as you were simply 105 00:06:24,676 --> 00:06:27,516 Speaker 1: describing that, I felt tingles in my fingers and a 106 00:06:27,596 --> 00:06:32,076 Speaker 1: pit in my stomach imagining being at that height. So sadly, yeah, 107 00:06:32,076 --> 00:06:34,756 Speaker 1: I think my brain architecture is slightly different from yours. 108 00:06:35,036 --> 00:06:36,876 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's probably more healthy your way. 109 00:06:36,956 --> 00:06:41,116 Speaker 1: Honestly, When Tommy's twenty two, he gets invited to go 110 00:06:41,196 --> 00:06:43,996 Speaker 1: on a climbing trip with three other climbers to Kyrghyzstan, 111 00:06:44,436 --> 00:06:48,956 Speaker 1: this beautiful mountainous country in Central Asia. Tommy being Tommy, 112 00:06:49,076 --> 00:06:51,756 Speaker 1: is of course excited for the challenge, but the real 113 00:06:51,836 --> 00:06:54,356 Speaker 1: reason he wants to go is because of another climber 114 00:06:54,356 --> 00:06:55,796 Speaker 1: on the trip, Death Rowden. 115 00:06:56,276 --> 00:06:59,316 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was certainly my main motivation behind the trip. 116 00:06:59,356 --> 00:07:01,876 Speaker 2: I would say, we're really really kind of early on 117 00:07:01,916 --> 00:07:03,596 Speaker 2: in our dating period at that time. 118 00:07:03,476 --> 00:07:06,236 Speaker 1: So this was during the like still wooing her stage. 119 00:07:06,276 --> 00:07:07,956 Speaker 1: Is that why you were so excited to go? 120 00:07:08,236 --> 00:07:08,716 Speaker 2: Absolutely? 121 00:07:08,836 --> 00:07:13,676 Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, got it. So can you paint a little 122 00:07:13,716 --> 00:07:16,436 Speaker 1: bit of a scene for me about when you first 123 00:07:16,436 --> 00:07:18,596 Speaker 1: survived in Kyrgusan, Like what is it like and what 124 00:07:18,676 --> 00:07:19,876 Speaker 1: climbing lies ahead of you? 125 00:07:20,316 --> 00:07:23,396 Speaker 2: Yeah, so we flew in, come around this corner and 126 00:07:23,436 --> 00:07:27,716 Speaker 2: we see these magnificent snow covered peaks. If you've ever 127 00:07:27,756 --> 00:07:31,476 Speaker 2: been in a region like the Himalayas or something, the mountains, 128 00:07:31,476 --> 00:07:35,116 Speaker 2: they are just so big and so beautiful that it's surreal. 129 00:07:35,156 --> 00:07:36,956 Speaker 2: I mean, it looks like you're looking at a painting, 130 00:07:36,996 --> 00:07:40,236 Speaker 2: it looks completely unreal. And so those big snow covered 131 00:07:40,236 --> 00:07:43,236 Speaker 2: mountains are in the background, and then these big rock spires, 132 00:07:43,276 --> 00:07:45,836 Speaker 2: these incredible rock spires with perfect rock, the kind of 133 00:07:45,836 --> 00:07:48,716 Speaker 2: thing that climbers dream of, were kind of in the foreground. 134 00:07:48,836 --> 00:07:51,316 Speaker 2: So we flew and there was a bit of a 135 00:07:51,396 --> 00:07:54,916 Speaker 2: valley kind of below all of the rock spires, and 136 00:07:54,996 --> 00:07:58,436 Speaker 2: so that's where we made our base camp. And some 137 00:07:58,516 --> 00:08:00,996 Speaker 2: of the people that live in the valley came and 138 00:08:01,076 --> 00:08:04,676 Speaker 2: visited with us and brought us, you know, yak milk 139 00:08:04,716 --> 00:08:08,356 Speaker 2: and butter and fresh baked bread, and it was like, yeah, 140 00:08:08,356 --> 00:08:11,156 Speaker 2: it was svidible. Yeah, it was pretty idealistic, like they 141 00:08:11,756 --> 00:08:15,116 Speaker 2: had they had encountered climbing teams like us in the past, 142 00:08:15,156 --> 00:08:16,916 Speaker 2: because this is the place that people had been coming 143 00:08:16,916 --> 00:08:20,516 Speaker 2: and climbing for ten or fifteen years, so we knew 144 00:08:20,516 --> 00:08:23,236 Speaker 2: that we would encounter them. So we brought toys to 145 00:08:23,236 --> 00:08:28,636 Speaker 2: play with the kids and bits of candy and stuff. Yeah, 146 00:08:28,636 --> 00:08:31,596 Speaker 2: it was It was absolutely beautiful, certainly sort of a 147 00:08:31,676 --> 00:08:34,636 Speaker 2: dream trip. Everything I kind of expected and hoped for 148 00:08:34,796 --> 00:08:35,676 Speaker 2: at first. 149 00:08:36,876 --> 00:08:39,476 Speaker 1: Can you describe the moment when you realized that you 150 00:08:39,516 --> 00:08:40,196 Speaker 1: were in danger. 151 00:08:42,196 --> 00:08:46,396 Speaker 2: Yeah, So it was very distinct. We had been in 152 00:08:46,436 --> 00:08:50,236 Speaker 2: the valley for five or six days. We had sort 153 00:08:50,236 --> 00:08:53,156 Speaker 2: of walked around and scoped the rocks and decided that 154 00:08:53,196 --> 00:08:54,796 Speaker 2: we were going to do our warm up climb on 155 00:08:54,836 --> 00:08:57,676 Speaker 2: this mountain, which is about a two thousand foot nearly 156 00:08:57,796 --> 00:09:00,436 Speaker 2: vertical rock cliff. And then we had spent the first 157 00:09:00,476 --> 00:09:03,116 Speaker 2: day climbing about halfway up that wall, so a thousand 158 00:09:03,196 --> 00:09:06,076 Speaker 2: feet up. We you know, the style of climbing were doing. 159 00:09:06,116 --> 00:09:08,476 Speaker 2: You climb one hundred or two hundred feet up, and 160 00:09:08,516 --> 00:09:11,996 Speaker 2: then you haul all of your equipment up, which is food, water, 161 00:09:12,596 --> 00:09:15,916 Speaker 2: portal ledges. There's no horizontal places to sleep, so you 162 00:09:15,956 --> 00:09:17,916 Speaker 2: set up your porta ledges, and we had this hanging 163 00:09:18,036 --> 00:09:21,276 Speaker 2: camp a thousand feet up this wall. And that was 164 00:09:21,316 --> 00:09:24,316 Speaker 2: actually the night of my birthday. Beth presents me with 165 00:09:24,356 --> 00:09:27,756 Speaker 2: this candle, we seeing Happy birthday. It's like there's no 166 00:09:27,916 --> 00:09:30,876 Speaker 2: light pollution at all in this place because you're literally 167 00:09:30,916 --> 00:09:36,516 Speaker 2: fifty miles from the nearest source of electricity, and the 168 00:09:36,596 --> 00:09:39,356 Speaker 2: stars are brilliant and these you know, the moonlight is 169 00:09:39,396 --> 00:09:43,476 Speaker 2: illuminating these these snow covered peaks up valley, and it's yeah, 170 00:09:43,516 --> 00:09:46,876 Speaker 2: it's a pretty incredible scene. So we go to beds, 171 00:09:46,996 --> 00:09:51,076 Speaker 2: feeling like everything's great. And then at very first light 172 00:09:51,116 --> 00:09:54,716 Speaker 2: the next morning, we awake to gunshots, like just startled 173 00:09:54,756 --> 00:09:58,156 Speaker 2: awake to gunshots. And first we thought that it was 174 00:09:59,036 --> 00:10:02,196 Speaker 2: just some hunters in the valley, probably, but then bullets 175 00:10:02,236 --> 00:10:04,156 Speaker 2: started to hit this roof of rock that was right 176 00:10:04,196 --> 00:10:06,796 Speaker 2: above us, and so we realized they were actually shooting 177 00:10:06,836 --> 00:10:07,156 Speaker 2: at us. 178 00:10:07,196 --> 00:10:07,996 Speaker 1: They were close by. 179 00:10:09,236 --> 00:10:12,156 Speaker 2: We had a big camera with us with a long 180 00:10:12,196 --> 00:10:15,276 Speaker 2: telephoto lens, and so we pulled out that camera and 181 00:10:15,316 --> 00:10:17,836 Speaker 2: we could look down to the ground, almost like looking 182 00:10:17,836 --> 00:10:22,596 Speaker 2: through you know, binoculars, and we could see these heavily 183 00:10:22,756 --> 00:10:26,276 Speaker 2: armed militants on the ground. We felt very vulnerable, like 184 00:10:26,316 --> 00:10:28,636 Speaker 2: we're expecting bullets to just rip through the bottom of 185 00:10:28,636 --> 00:10:29,956 Speaker 2: the portal edge at any moment. 186 00:10:30,796 --> 00:10:35,316 Speaker 1: Wow. So in that moment, are you thinking, Okay, they 187 00:10:35,396 --> 00:10:39,036 Speaker 1: might have missed slightly with the first few shots, but 188 00:10:39,476 --> 00:10:40,476 Speaker 1: you know we're going to die. 189 00:10:40,796 --> 00:10:43,276 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly what we're worried about. There's no way 190 00:10:43,276 --> 00:10:45,796 Speaker 2: to run away. I mean, it's just complete vulnerability. It's 191 00:10:45,796 --> 00:10:49,196 Speaker 2: like somebody's shooting at you and you can't hide behind anything. 192 00:10:50,396 --> 00:10:53,196 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're literally a fix to a vertical wall in 193 00:10:53,316 --> 00:10:55,716 Speaker 1: a tent right there. There's literally no escape. 194 00:10:55,476 --> 00:10:58,556 Speaker 2: Route, right, yeah, I mean moving out of the way. 195 00:10:58,596 --> 00:11:00,676 Speaker 2: It would have been you know, a several hour process 196 00:11:00,756 --> 00:11:04,236 Speaker 2: to just get up and around the corner or something. 197 00:11:05,036 --> 00:11:08,116 Speaker 1: Okay, So then so you hear this these gunshots. What 198 00:11:08,196 --> 00:11:10,636 Speaker 1: happens next. 199 00:11:10,316 --> 00:11:13,116 Speaker 2: Through our telephoto camera lens, we see them sort of 200 00:11:13,196 --> 00:11:17,276 Speaker 2: waving at us to come down, and we know that 201 00:11:18,036 --> 00:11:20,676 Speaker 2: we have no other option. Basically, they've got these big guns. 202 00:11:20,716 --> 00:11:24,476 Speaker 2: They've proved that they're good shots with these guns, and 203 00:11:24,556 --> 00:11:26,556 Speaker 2: so we're like, we have to go down. So we 204 00:11:26,596 --> 00:11:29,756 Speaker 2: have a discussion and we decide that John Dickey, who 205 00:11:29,796 --> 00:11:33,156 Speaker 2: is the oldest member of our expedition, will go down 206 00:11:33,236 --> 00:11:35,236 Speaker 2: and try and talk to them. We're just trying to 207 00:11:35,236 --> 00:11:37,996 Speaker 2: be super optimistic at this point. Maybe they just want information, 208 00:11:38,116 --> 00:11:42,556 Speaker 2: we don't really know. And so John starts descending down 209 00:11:42,596 --> 00:11:46,676 Speaker 2: the wall. Takes him probably nearly an hour, and he 210 00:11:46,836 --> 00:11:49,236 Speaker 2: gets down there and we have these two way radios 211 00:11:49,236 --> 00:11:51,276 Speaker 2: and he had taken one of them. When he gets 212 00:11:51,316 --> 00:11:55,916 Speaker 2: down there, he just sounds very serious. He radios back 213 00:11:55,956 --> 00:11:57,876 Speaker 2: to us and he's like, you guys are just gonna 214 00:11:57,876 --> 00:12:01,036 Speaker 2: have to come down. So the other three of us 215 00:12:01,076 --> 00:12:03,916 Speaker 2: just start descending down the wall and When we get 216 00:12:03,956 --> 00:12:06,916 Speaker 2: to the ground, we're confronted with a pretty scary scene. 217 00:12:06,956 --> 00:12:11,516 Speaker 2: I would say there's two heavily armed men that are 218 00:12:11,596 --> 00:12:17,036 Speaker 2: wearing this combination of like army fatigues, so they look 219 00:12:17,116 --> 00:12:20,636 Speaker 2: pretty scary, but their demeanor is actually pretty chill. They 220 00:12:20,676 --> 00:12:23,916 Speaker 2: wait for us. We get to the ground and they're 221 00:12:23,956 --> 00:12:26,396 Speaker 2: just kind of sitting around, not really saying that much, 222 00:12:26,436 --> 00:12:28,876 Speaker 2: and then they just kind of wave us on to 223 00:12:28,956 --> 00:12:30,396 Speaker 2: follow them back to base camp. 224 00:12:31,236 --> 00:12:33,316 Speaker 1: A conflict had broken out in the country between the 225 00:12:33,396 --> 00:12:37,116 Speaker 1: Krgeese Army and the Islamic Movement of Zbekistan. Up on 226 00:12:37,116 --> 00:12:39,796 Speaker 1: the mountain, a small group of the militants had captured 227 00:12:39,796 --> 00:12:42,556 Speaker 1: a KRGEE soldier, and when Tommy and the rest of 228 00:12:42,556 --> 00:12:44,996 Speaker 1: his climbing crew were forced down the mountain, they were 229 00:12:45,036 --> 00:12:46,876 Speaker 1: able to get a closer look at the soldier. 230 00:12:47,396 --> 00:12:51,036 Speaker 2: He just looked very stern, you know, he looked kind 231 00:12:51,076 --> 00:12:53,596 Speaker 2: of scared and very stern, and he had blood all 232 00:12:53,596 --> 00:12:56,076 Speaker 2: over his pants. And I think there was at one 233 00:12:56,116 --> 00:12:58,036 Speaker 2: moment in there where John looked over at us and 234 00:12:58,076 --> 00:13:01,236 Speaker 2: he's like, we're hostages. I think we're hostages, And so 235 00:13:01,796 --> 00:13:03,076 Speaker 2: that's kind of when it struck us. 236 00:13:03,956 --> 00:13:06,916 Speaker 1: The militants waste no time. They lead Tommy and Beth 237 00:13:06,956 --> 00:13:09,396 Speaker 1: and the other climbers into the mountain side a point, 238 00:13:09,996 --> 00:13:12,116 Speaker 1: and as they start to cross the river, a group 239 00:13:12,116 --> 00:13:14,556 Speaker 1: of Kirki soldiers appear at the top of the hill 240 00:13:15,036 --> 00:13:16,596 Speaker 1: and start shooting at them. 241 00:13:16,836 --> 00:13:20,156 Speaker 2: This battle breaks out essentially, and we hide in this bush, 242 00:13:20,276 --> 00:13:24,796 Speaker 2: and Beth and myself and this Kurky soldier end up 243 00:13:24,796 --> 00:13:27,796 Speaker 2: in this bush together. The next thing that happened is 244 00:13:27,876 --> 00:13:31,796 Speaker 2: the rebels told us one by one to run up 245 00:13:31,836 --> 00:13:36,916 Speaker 2: behind this boulder, and the Kirky soldier went first, and 246 00:13:37,116 --> 00:13:39,036 Speaker 2: as soon as he got up behind the boulder, we 247 00:13:39,116 --> 00:13:43,076 Speaker 2: heard these handgun shots which were different than the rifle shots, 248 00:13:43,076 --> 00:13:45,436 Speaker 2: and they had just shot him in the shot him 249 00:13:45,436 --> 00:13:47,716 Speaker 2: in the head right there, and then the rest of 250 00:13:47,796 --> 00:13:49,556 Speaker 2: us had to go up and hide behind that boulder. 251 00:13:49,556 --> 00:13:52,356 Speaker 2: As this battle sort of erupted around us. It was 252 00:13:52,396 --> 00:13:55,356 Speaker 2: a full on like war scene. We're hiding behind this boulder. 253 00:13:55,596 --> 00:13:58,236 Speaker 2: The boulder was getting you know, bullets were ricocheting off 254 00:13:58,276 --> 00:14:01,036 Speaker 2: the boulder. We were behind it, sitting on the dead 255 00:14:01,076 --> 00:14:04,836 Speaker 2: body of this other Kurky soldier, and they were shooting 256 00:14:04,836 --> 00:14:09,116 Speaker 2: these these mortars across at us. I mean, we were 257 00:14:09,196 --> 00:14:10,956 Speaker 2: kind of certain that we're going to die at any moment. 258 00:14:12,916 --> 00:14:17,316 Speaker 1: I'm just imagining the juxtaposition of going from these immensely 259 00:14:17,956 --> 00:14:23,876 Speaker 1: peaceful climbs in this expansive valley to absolute life or 260 00:14:23,876 --> 00:14:26,276 Speaker 1: death insanity. What do you remember feeling? 261 00:14:27,116 --> 00:14:30,556 Speaker 2: Definitely riting on adrenaline, totally surreal. I feel like that 262 00:14:30,716 --> 00:14:34,556 Speaker 2: is not like the rest of life at all. And 263 00:14:34,596 --> 00:14:38,716 Speaker 2: I think it was fear that was more intense and 264 00:14:38,836 --> 00:14:41,076 Speaker 2: far different than anything I had noticed. Like in some 265 00:14:41,156 --> 00:14:44,156 Speaker 2: ways I was used to dealing with fear because of 266 00:14:44,196 --> 00:14:46,716 Speaker 2: my climbing life, but this was just way different. 267 00:14:47,716 --> 00:14:50,036 Speaker 1: Tommy, Beth and their crew managed to make it out 268 00:14:50,036 --> 00:14:53,396 Speaker 1: of this skirmish alive, but they're still being held captive 269 00:14:53,436 --> 00:14:57,036 Speaker 1: by two militant rebels. They can't communicate with their captors 270 00:14:57,036 --> 00:14:59,676 Speaker 1: because they don't speak the same language, but from what 271 00:14:59,716 --> 00:15:02,236 Speaker 1: they can glean, there's an older guy who seems to 272 00:15:02,236 --> 00:15:06,276 Speaker 1: be in charge, and then a teenager named Scheripov. During 273 00:15:06,316 --> 00:15:09,116 Speaker 1: the day, the militants lead them around in what ultimately 274 00:15:09,236 --> 00:15:12,636 Speaker 1: ends up being a big circle looking for hiding places. 275 00:15:12,916 --> 00:15:14,876 Speaker 2: And we don't have any food. We had We had 276 00:15:14,876 --> 00:15:16,996 Speaker 2: to abandon all of our food, except I had managed 277 00:15:16,996 --> 00:15:20,196 Speaker 2: to shove like five or six energy bars into my pocket. 278 00:15:20,356 --> 00:15:23,196 Speaker 2: So each day we would in the evening, we would 279 00:15:23,236 --> 00:15:26,156 Speaker 2: split one of those energy bars between the six of us, 280 00:15:26,436 --> 00:15:28,836 Speaker 2: and that's the only food we had, and we do 281 00:15:29,556 --> 00:15:31,236 Speaker 2: kind of feel like we're all in it together, like 282 00:15:31,316 --> 00:15:33,596 Speaker 2: we share our food with them. They didn't just take 283 00:15:33,596 --> 00:15:35,996 Speaker 2: all of our food. They shared it with us, those 284 00:15:36,076 --> 00:15:39,876 Speaker 2: six you know, energy bars that we had, and the 285 00:15:39,956 --> 00:15:43,996 Speaker 2: demeanor became pretty friendly a lot of the time. And 286 00:15:44,076 --> 00:15:48,636 Speaker 2: then during the daylight hours, we would hide in usually 287 00:15:48,716 --> 00:15:52,916 Speaker 2: just absolutely miserable hiding spots like you know, by rivers, 288 00:15:53,076 --> 00:15:56,916 Speaker 2: under boulders. It was always super cold, you know, our 289 00:15:56,956 --> 00:16:00,236 Speaker 2: teeth were chattering all day long, every day, to the 290 00:16:00,236 --> 00:16:03,076 Speaker 2: point where where our jaws and our mouths got really 291 00:16:03,116 --> 00:16:06,756 Speaker 2: sort We'd be sitting there hiding for fourteen hours of 292 00:16:06,836 --> 00:16:08,876 Speaker 2: daylight or whatever, and it would feel like a week. 293 00:16:09,596 --> 00:16:11,516 Speaker 1: Did you ever worry that you were going to die 294 00:16:11,556 --> 00:16:15,036 Speaker 1: of hypothermia, so it's not just the potential of being killed, 295 00:16:15,076 --> 00:16:17,436 Speaker 1: but also you just might die from extreme conditions. 296 00:16:17,796 --> 00:16:20,436 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that was definitely a worry of ours. We 297 00:16:20,436 --> 00:16:23,356 Speaker 2: were probably on the verge most of the time, and 298 00:16:23,636 --> 00:16:27,636 Speaker 2: we're at a point where we can't really just sit 299 00:16:27,676 --> 00:16:31,156 Speaker 2: through these conditions. Anymore. But then weirdly, at times, I 300 00:16:31,156 --> 00:16:33,676 Speaker 2: think this is sort of a proven thing that happens 301 00:16:33,916 --> 00:16:37,036 Speaker 2: when you go through this severe hunger, is you have 302 00:16:37,116 --> 00:16:39,996 Speaker 2: these moments of like mental clarity, like you feel like 303 00:16:40,116 --> 00:16:43,876 Speaker 2: you are almost more alive than ever as you're starving 304 00:16:43,916 --> 00:16:45,796 Speaker 2: to death, your body just sort of starts to kick 305 00:16:45,836 --> 00:16:50,276 Speaker 2: into this like survival mode, and so you sort of 306 00:16:50,356 --> 00:16:54,116 Speaker 2: an alternate between that and then other times of just 307 00:16:54,116 --> 00:16:58,196 Speaker 2: feeling really lethargic and really slow and you know, really hungry. 308 00:16:58,916 --> 00:17:01,196 Speaker 2: So we just traveled around like that for six nights, 309 00:17:01,236 --> 00:17:05,756 Speaker 2: getting progressively weaker, and then finally on that last night, 310 00:17:06,036 --> 00:17:08,716 Speaker 2: things are pretty desperate, and so we were left on 311 00:17:08,756 --> 00:17:14,596 Speaker 2: this with just the young scared soldier Serpov, and told 312 00:17:14,636 --> 00:17:17,716 Speaker 2: to climb up this incredibly steep mountain. It was you know, 313 00:17:17,876 --> 00:17:20,316 Speaker 2: true rock climbing, Like it was kind of terrain that 314 00:17:20,356 --> 00:17:22,556 Speaker 2: if you fell on it didn't seem like you would stop. 315 00:17:22,636 --> 00:17:25,156 Speaker 2: You would just continue falling until you got you know, 316 00:17:25,196 --> 00:17:27,396 Speaker 2: bouncing down the mountain until you got to the bottom. 317 00:17:27,876 --> 00:17:32,316 Speaker 2: And sherif Pov was really scared, we were actually having 318 00:17:32,356 --> 00:17:36,276 Speaker 2: to lead the way because we were climbers. We would 319 00:17:36,356 --> 00:17:38,316 Speaker 2: you know, grab his hand and pull him up over 320 00:17:39,076 --> 00:17:42,356 Speaker 2: rock steps. We would point out footholds for him to 321 00:17:42,356 --> 00:17:44,436 Speaker 2: step on. We would sort of spot him in case 322 00:17:44,476 --> 00:17:46,396 Speaker 2: he stumbled, we could catch him so he didn't just 323 00:17:46,396 --> 00:17:49,876 Speaker 2: fall down the mountain. And so in all of our 324 00:17:49,916 --> 00:17:52,876 Speaker 2: minds like if there was a time to escape, this 325 00:17:53,036 --> 00:17:53,276 Speaker 2: was it. 326 00:17:54,596 --> 00:17:57,836 Speaker 1: So I'm curious, and it seems like the very natural 327 00:17:57,916 --> 00:18:01,036 Speaker 1: instinct to help others was kicking in for you. Right, 328 00:18:01,076 --> 00:18:04,396 Speaker 1: you're spotting this guy, you're leading the way, you're helping him. 329 00:18:05,196 --> 00:18:08,916 Speaker 1: Who were these competing feelings towards him and the situation 330 00:18:09,876 --> 00:18:13,316 Speaker 1: leading to kind of bizarre behaviors in you. It's so fascinating, 331 00:18:13,396 --> 00:18:16,676 Speaker 1: right that you can build this kind of camaraderie with 332 00:18:16,756 --> 00:18:19,476 Speaker 1: a person who might ultimately lead to your death, if 333 00:18:19,516 --> 00:18:21,796 Speaker 1: you have that kind of empathy towards their circumstance and 334 00:18:21,836 --> 00:18:22,516 Speaker 1: their situation. 335 00:18:23,796 --> 00:18:26,636 Speaker 2: I mean, I think it felt different at different times, 336 00:18:26,676 --> 00:18:28,676 Speaker 2: Like at times I was like, we should outlast this, 337 00:18:28,756 --> 00:18:31,156 Speaker 2: We should be good human beings as long as we can. 338 00:18:31,476 --> 00:18:33,636 Speaker 2: In a way, these rebels, I didn't see them as 339 00:18:33,916 --> 00:18:37,156 Speaker 2: super evil people, especially Cherpov who were with like he 340 00:18:37,196 --> 00:18:39,116 Speaker 2: was just he was younger, or he was probably about 341 00:18:39,156 --> 00:18:40,916 Speaker 2: my age or maybe even younger. I think he was 342 00:18:41,236 --> 00:18:43,916 Speaker 2: eighteen years old at the time. He was a hired mercenary. 343 00:18:43,956 --> 00:18:47,596 Speaker 2: He was obviously super frightened himself, you know. He like, 344 00:18:47,596 --> 00:18:49,796 Speaker 2: who's to say, if I didn't grow up in a circumstance, 345 00:18:49,796 --> 00:18:51,796 Speaker 2: I wouldn't have been right there with him. So I 346 00:18:51,876 --> 00:18:54,236 Speaker 2: thought it was sort of morally wrong to try and 347 00:18:54,276 --> 00:18:57,276 Speaker 2: take these guys' lives. But I think on this last night, 348 00:18:57,436 --> 00:19:00,116 Speaker 2: clouds started to roll in. I started to raigin a 349 00:19:00,156 --> 00:19:02,396 Speaker 2: tiny bit, and all of us were like, if we 350 00:19:02,436 --> 00:19:04,796 Speaker 2: don't escape this scene pretty soon, we are going to 351 00:19:04,796 --> 00:19:08,036 Speaker 2: succumb to hypothermia. Yeah, So as we were getting to 352 00:19:08,116 --> 00:19:12,516 Speaker 2: the top of the mountain, I knew that our opportunity 353 00:19:12,556 --> 00:19:16,156 Speaker 2: to push him was going to be gone soon. And 354 00:19:16,516 --> 00:19:20,476 Speaker 2: Beth had been adamantly against killing somebody this whole time, 355 00:19:20,516 --> 00:19:23,436 Speaker 2: but it was getting pretty dire. So I looked over 356 00:19:23,476 --> 00:19:26,276 Speaker 2: her when we're at her, when we were maybe fifty 357 00:19:26,396 --> 00:19:28,196 Speaker 2: or one hundred feet below the top of this mountain, 358 00:19:28,196 --> 00:19:30,436 Speaker 2: and I was like, do you think I should And 359 00:19:30,476 --> 00:19:32,916 Speaker 2: she didn't say anything, which to me that meant that 360 00:19:32,956 --> 00:19:34,956 Speaker 2: she thought she'd come around, like she thought that this 361 00:19:35,116 --> 00:19:38,956 Speaker 2: was probably the right thing to do. And so when 362 00:19:38,996 --> 00:19:42,596 Speaker 2: he saw the top of the mountain kind of close. 363 00:19:42,676 --> 00:19:45,076 Speaker 2: He got a little bit excited. He started to sort 364 00:19:45,116 --> 00:19:48,476 Speaker 2: of rush up ahead of all of us. He is 365 00:19:48,516 --> 00:19:54,276 Speaker 2: in Sharapov, and I then started to sort of sneak 366 00:19:54,356 --> 00:19:58,756 Speaker 2: up behind him. And he was so focused on like 367 00:19:58,996 --> 00:20:00,956 Speaker 2: staying attached to the mountain, you know, like grabbing the 368 00:20:00,996 --> 00:20:02,836 Speaker 2: right hand holds and stuff, that he really didn't even 369 00:20:02,876 --> 00:20:04,996 Speaker 2: notice me. And I ran up behind him, and I 370 00:20:05,076 --> 00:20:08,516 Speaker 2: just grabbed his gun strap and just tugged backwards on it, 371 00:20:08,556 --> 00:20:11,196 Speaker 2: and he started to off the mountain side. He fell 372 00:20:11,716 --> 00:20:14,476 Speaker 2: about twenty feet, hit this ledge that was below us, 373 00:20:14,516 --> 00:20:16,516 Speaker 2: bounced off of it like the sloping ledge, and then 374 00:20:17,116 --> 00:20:20,716 Speaker 2: out of sight, just in the blackness. 375 00:20:22,276 --> 00:20:24,796 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. With a slight change of plans, 376 00:20:28,676 --> 00:20:31,436 Speaker 1: I'm maya shunker, and this is a slight change of plans. 377 00:20:32,316 --> 00:20:35,036 Speaker 1: Tommy Caldwells made the bold decision to push one of 378 00:20:35,036 --> 00:20:38,636 Speaker 1: his captors off the cliff. Years later, a journalist working 379 00:20:38,716 --> 00:20:41,796 Speaker 1: on the story discovers that Cherapov did not actually die 380 00:20:41,836 --> 00:20:44,956 Speaker 1: from the fall, but at the time, Tommy assumes he's 381 00:20:45,036 --> 00:20:48,396 Speaker 1: killed Schherapov, and for Tommy, the reality of what he 382 00:20:48,516 --> 00:20:50,556 Speaker 1: just did comes crashing down on him. 383 00:20:51,036 --> 00:20:53,956 Speaker 2: It's just like this flood of emotion is going through me. 384 00:20:53,996 --> 00:20:57,076 Speaker 2: I like can't believe what I've just done. I remember 385 00:20:57,156 --> 00:21:02,476 Speaker 2: like closing my eyes incredibly tight and like seeing like 386 00:21:02,596 --> 00:21:06,356 Speaker 2: weird starry visions. I mean, it was just like it's 387 00:21:06,396 --> 00:21:10,036 Speaker 2: almost hard to explain it. It was just like emotionally 388 00:21:10,156 --> 00:21:12,556 Speaker 2: overwhelming way that I've never experienced. 389 00:21:12,596 --> 00:21:12,796 Speaker 1: You know. 390 00:21:13,556 --> 00:21:17,116 Speaker 2: Beth was really comforting me. I mean she'd like, I, 391 00:21:17,196 --> 00:21:18,796 Speaker 2: like I said, I was deeply in love with this woman, 392 00:21:18,836 --> 00:21:21,116 Speaker 2: and she was, and I didn't know she'd suddenly think 393 00:21:21,156 --> 00:21:23,076 Speaker 2: that I was like this evil person because we hadn't 394 00:21:23,116 --> 00:21:24,716 Speaker 2: really been able to talk it out what I was 395 00:21:24,756 --> 00:21:26,756 Speaker 2: about to do. So she was the one who was like, 396 00:21:26,796 --> 00:21:30,236 Speaker 2: you're You're my hero. You We're gonna be okay because 397 00:21:30,276 --> 00:21:32,396 Speaker 2: of you, and trying to say the right things to 398 00:21:32,436 --> 00:21:33,556 Speaker 2: help me in that moment. 399 00:21:34,516 --> 00:21:37,116 Speaker 1: The moment doesn't last long, though, with one of their 400 00:21:37,156 --> 00:21:39,396 Speaker 1: captors pushed off the mountain and the other one out 401 00:21:39,396 --> 00:21:41,836 Speaker 1: of sight. Tommy and his team know they need to 402 00:21:41,876 --> 00:21:43,916 Speaker 1: seize the moment and get out of there as quickly 403 00:21:43,956 --> 00:21:46,596 Speaker 1: as possible, so they run down the mountain and find 404 00:21:46,636 --> 00:21:49,996 Speaker 1: safety at a military outpost, and eventually they all make 405 00:21:50,036 --> 00:21:54,356 Speaker 1: it back to the US. Almost immediately, Tommy's dad notices 406 00:21:54,436 --> 00:21:55,636 Speaker 1: a change in him. 407 00:21:56,316 --> 00:21:59,676 Speaker 2: I mean, I felt like for a time I sort 408 00:21:59,676 --> 00:22:03,916 Speaker 2: of receded into a ball. I didn't talk to anybody 409 00:22:03,916 --> 00:22:08,356 Speaker 2: except for Beth about personal things, but Beth on a 410 00:22:08,396 --> 00:22:11,476 Speaker 2: few other clubes friends. I didn't talk to my parents 411 00:22:11,476 --> 00:22:13,316 Speaker 2: that much about it, So I think he probably had 412 00:22:13,316 --> 00:22:15,956 Speaker 2: that take more than most because he knew me a lot. 413 00:22:15,996 --> 00:22:20,116 Speaker 2: And then I just didn't want to discuss this with him. 414 00:22:20,156 --> 00:22:23,876 Speaker 1: What aspect of the experience made you most uncomfortable talking 415 00:22:23,876 --> 00:22:24,796 Speaker 1: about with your dad? 416 00:22:26,516 --> 00:22:29,036 Speaker 2: I think I was just I just didn't know how 417 00:22:29,116 --> 00:22:33,996 Speaker 2: to think about the experience. Like I didn't know for 418 00:22:34,036 --> 00:22:36,596 Speaker 2: a while whether whether I, you know, was kind of 419 00:22:36,596 --> 00:22:38,956 Speaker 2: an evil person for having done this thing, or whether 420 00:22:38,956 --> 00:22:40,876 Speaker 2: I was kind of a hero for saving us. I 421 00:22:40,916 --> 00:22:43,916 Speaker 2: was both, But I'd also learned. I think very few 422 00:22:43,916 --> 00:22:48,516 Speaker 2: people get to find out how they will react in 423 00:22:48,796 --> 00:22:51,956 Speaker 2: super intense experiences like that. Everybody sort of wonders, And 424 00:22:52,756 --> 00:22:56,316 Speaker 2: I now knew that when things are really bad, I 425 00:22:56,396 --> 00:22:58,396 Speaker 2: was able to kind of like rise to the occasion 426 00:22:58,436 --> 00:23:01,796 Speaker 2: and do something that was really hard for me and 427 00:23:02,196 --> 00:23:04,996 Speaker 2: really fight for survival in this way that I think 428 00:23:04,996 --> 00:23:07,116 Speaker 2: I was. I was a bit proud of at the time, 429 00:23:07,196 --> 00:23:10,836 Speaker 2: but I didn't want to seem proud. I didn't want 430 00:23:10,836 --> 00:23:12,596 Speaker 2: to feel I didn't want to feel proud in a 431 00:23:12,636 --> 00:23:15,316 Speaker 2: lot of ways. But I think kind of deep down 432 00:23:15,516 --> 00:23:17,676 Speaker 2: I was a little bit proud, like I felt empowered. 433 00:23:18,356 --> 00:23:22,676 Speaker 1: Interesting, So, so did the adversity you faced in Kyrgyzstan 434 00:23:23,556 --> 00:23:27,396 Speaker 1: change your understanding of yourself or actually just reinforce what 435 00:23:27,436 --> 00:23:30,036 Speaker 1: you had believed all along about what you were capable of. 436 00:23:30,996 --> 00:23:34,476 Speaker 2: I think it it reinforced more than changed, but it 437 00:23:34,516 --> 00:23:38,276 Speaker 2: also revealed a lot. It opened up a ton of curiosity, 438 00:23:38,356 --> 00:23:41,396 Speaker 2: like I wanted to learn more. I wanted to in 439 00:23:41,436 --> 00:23:45,036 Speaker 2: some ways get back to that place of being in 440 00:23:45,116 --> 00:23:49,996 Speaker 2: this incredibly meditative like flow state that I felt like 441 00:23:50,076 --> 00:23:53,236 Speaker 2: I had experienced it at times in Kyrgyzstan. I think 442 00:23:53,596 --> 00:23:56,316 Speaker 2: in some ways my climbing ever since then has been 443 00:23:56,676 --> 00:23:59,596 Speaker 2: an effort to almost get back there in a way 444 00:23:59,636 --> 00:24:04,716 Speaker 2: and learn more. Yeah, almost like an addiction potentially. I 445 00:24:04,756 --> 00:24:10,116 Speaker 2: think I saw Kyrgyzstan as this like fuel to put 446 00:24:10,196 --> 00:24:13,636 Speaker 2: me on this higher plane where I could like use 447 00:24:13,716 --> 00:24:19,516 Speaker 2: that adversity to fuel my life in a lot of ways, 448 00:24:19,556 --> 00:24:23,196 Speaker 2: and and sort of my pursuit of of my craft, 449 00:24:23,236 --> 00:24:26,156 Speaker 2: which continues to be climbing to this day. 450 00:24:27,476 --> 00:24:29,716 Speaker 1: Yeah, man, you are such a climber at heart. Like 451 00:24:29,756 --> 00:24:33,316 Speaker 1: the fact that you're describing Kirkgason as being a flow 452 00:24:33,356 --> 00:24:37,036 Speaker 1: state in which you had like you know, deep mental acuity, 453 00:24:37,236 --> 00:24:41,396 Speaker 1: and you're that's as a lay person, right, That is 454 00:24:41,436 --> 00:24:45,236 Speaker 1: a truly astonishing way of interpreting those events. 455 00:24:45,476 --> 00:24:45,676 Speaker 3: Yeah. 456 00:24:45,676 --> 00:24:48,556 Speaker 2: Well I didn't go there first. I probably win a 457 00:24:48,556 --> 00:24:48,876 Speaker 2: lot of. 458 00:24:48,796 --> 00:24:50,556 Speaker 1: Places in that year. Yeah. 459 00:24:50,636 --> 00:24:53,796 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the place that I ended up finding to 460 00:24:53,876 --> 00:24:55,956 Speaker 2: be the one that suited me. But if you think 461 00:24:55,956 --> 00:24:58,396 Speaker 2: about it, like you know, I can I can equate 462 00:24:58,436 --> 00:25:00,436 Speaker 2: it to situations as a child where I was up 463 00:25:00,476 --> 00:25:02,676 Speaker 2: on some big wall with my dad and you know, 464 00:25:02,716 --> 00:25:07,076 Speaker 2: surrounded by some incredible thunderstorm and things get really real 465 00:25:07,076 --> 00:25:08,516 Speaker 2: and my dad would look at me in these kind 466 00:25:08,556 --> 00:25:10,396 Speaker 2: of moments with these wild eyes would be like, this 467 00:25:10,436 --> 00:25:12,916 Speaker 2: is what brings us to life. So that was built 468 00:25:12,916 --> 00:25:14,476 Speaker 2: into me from a really young age. 469 00:25:14,956 --> 00:25:17,796 Speaker 1: Interesting, Okay, Yeah, I think my parents were like, why 470 00:25:17,796 --> 00:25:21,276 Speaker 1: don't we go inside? Now there's thunder? You would prefer 471 00:25:21,356 --> 00:25:26,436 Speaker 1: not to die? Okay? Anyway, anyway, can you describe more? 472 00:25:26,516 --> 00:25:28,996 Speaker 1: I think for a lot of listeners the'll be curious 473 00:25:29,036 --> 00:25:32,796 Speaker 1: what you mean by this flow state that you experienced 474 00:25:32,796 --> 00:25:35,316 Speaker 1: in Kyrgyzstan, Like, what does it feel like? What were 475 00:25:35,316 --> 00:25:38,876 Speaker 1: you what were you trying to reach psychologically when you 476 00:25:38,916 --> 00:25:40,396 Speaker 1: came back and started climbing again. 477 00:25:42,236 --> 00:25:45,196 Speaker 2: To me, that flow state in its most pure form 478 00:25:45,436 --> 00:25:51,076 Speaker 2: is like this moment where it's almost like everything slows down. 479 00:25:51,596 --> 00:25:55,116 Speaker 2: You feel weightless, you feel like your vision is a 480 00:25:55,156 --> 00:25:58,516 Speaker 2: cute you notice detail in this incredible way. It's like 481 00:25:58,556 --> 00:26:05,316 Speaker 2: a physiological change that is incredibly easy to notice when 482 00:26:05,356 --> 00:26:08,676 Speaker 2: it happens. You know, it's like in the moment where 483 00:26:09,596 --> 00:26:13,636 Speaker 2: all odds are against you, suddenly it's like the clarity 484 00:26:13,716 --> 00:26:17,836 Speaker 2: comes and it's completely surreal and completely magical. I feel 485 00:26:17,876 --> 00:26:20,196 Speaker 2: like I had experienced that in Kyrgyzstan, and so I 486 00:26:20,236 --> 00:26:23,396 Speaker 2: was trying to get back there in climbing, but I wasn't. 487 00:26:23,436 --> 00:26:25,236 Speaker 2: I wasn't finding that flow sted in that way. So 488 00:26:25,276 --> 00:26:27,276 Speaker 2: I did start to shift some of my climbing to 489 00:26:27,396 --> 00:26:31,076 Speaker 2: like this mega endurance days where you're out, you know, 490 00:26:31,196 --> 00:26:33,876 Speaker 2: sleep deprived for you know, fifty hours in a row, 491 00:26:33,916 --> 00:26:36,036 Speaker 2: and a lot of times these climbs would take four 492 00:26:36,076 --> 00:26:38,116 Speaker 2: or five days, and I started to do them in 493 00:26:38,276 --> 00:26:40,156 Speaker 2: one day, like twenty four hour pushes. 494 00:26:41,236 --> 00:26:45,756 Speaker 1: Okay, I'm pausing only because if I were an alien 495 00:26:45,796 --> 00:26:49,116 Speaker 1: descending on this planet and I heard that there's this 496 00:26:49,156 --> 00:26:52,436 Speaker 1: guy named Tommy Caldwell who went through a harrowing experience 497 00:26:52,436 --> 00:26:56,596 Speaker 1: in Kyrgyzstan, who's now trying to replicate aspects of that 498 00:26:56,756 --> 00:27:00,596 Speaker 1: trip on his own volition in normal life. I think 499 00:27:01,276 --> 00:27:04,916 Speaker 1: I think the alien would batny, that's all. It's why 500 00:27:05,036 --> 00:27:10,356 Speaker 1: I admire climber so much. It's the relentless focus and resolve. 501 00:27:10,396 --> 00:27:13,796 Speaker 1: And again, I flirted as a musician with flow right 502 00:27:14,796 --> 00:27:18,956 Speaker 1: in my childhood, and I in my own way, I 503 00:27:18,996 --> 00:27:22,796 Speaker 1: crave that too. There there's something about engaging with art, 504 00:27:22,876 --> 00:27:24,876 Speaker 1: and I guess I see climbing as an art form too, 505 00:27:25,316 --> 00:27:27,236 Speaker 1: that can put you in a certain mental state that's 506 00:27:27,276 --> 00:27:30,116 Speaker 1: really hard to can't. You can't recruit it in daily 507 00:27:30,156 --> 00:27:32,316 Speaker 1: life at will, right, it's not. It's one of these 508 00:27:32,316 --> 00:27:36,236 Speaker 1: elusive things that happens when all the stars align right, 509 00:27:36,316 --> 00:27:38,276 Speaker 1: or at least that's how it's been in my own experience. 510 00:27:39,156 --> 00:27:40,836 Speaker 2: Yeah, now I can tell you have like you have 511 00:27:40,876 --> 00:27:43,636 Speaker 2: the craving and the thirst for it, and yeah, I 512 00:27:43,676 --> 00:27:45,836 Speaker 2: felt like I need to pursue that a lot in 513 00:27:45,836 --> 00:27:48,596 Speaker 2: my life since then. But in some ways I never 514 00:27:48,676 --> 00:27:50,916 Speaker 2: got back to that place that I was in Kyrgyzstan, 515 00:27:51,076 --> 00:27:54,116 Speaker 2: like that flow state that I experienced that really comes 516 00:27:54,796 --> 00:27:59,156 Speaker 2: from this you can really only access when when your 517 00:27:59,276 --> 00:28:01,156 Speaker 2: life really is on the line. Even though I was 518 00:28:01,156 --> 00:28:03,996 Speaker 2: pushing way harder than I was before, I wasn't. I 519 00:28:04,036 --> 00:28:08,516 Speaker 2: wasn't ever getting back to that, to that place, to 520 00:28:08,596 --> 00:28:09,756 Speaker 2: the incredible flow state. 521 00:28:10,836 --> 00:28:13,756 Speaker 1: Tommy spent the next year after his return from Kyrgyzstan 522 00:28:14,116 --> 00:28:17,556 Speaker 1: trying to access that high, that flow state in his clients. 523 00:28:18,116 --> 00:28:21,116 Speaker 1: Whatever downtime he had, he spent with Beth in this 524 00:28:21,196 --> 00:28:24,116 Speaker 1: little fixer upper cabin they bought in the mountains of Colorado. 525 00:28:24,916 --> 00:28:26,996 Speaker 2: Then one day I was working on the house. I 526 00:28:26,996 --> 00:28:28,636 Speaker 2: was trying to use the tools and not knowing how 527 00:28:28,676 --> 00:28:30,596 Speaker 2: to use them properly. I ended up chopping off my 528 00:28:30,996 --> 00:28:34,836 Speaker 2: index finger on my left hand with a table saw. 529 00:28:35,716 --> 00:28:38,396 Speaker 2: So this is kind of like worst case scenario. 530 00:28:39,276 --> 00:28:41,436 Speaker 1: Can you describe the moment where you realize that your 531 00:28:41,436 --> 00:28:43,436 Speaker 1: index finger is no longer on your hand. 532 00:28:44,556 --> 00:28:47,836 Speaker 2: I felt this numbness, and I looked down at my 533 00:28:47,916 --> 00:28:51,196 Speaker 2: left hand and saw that the finger was completely severed. 534 00:28:51,276 --> 00:28:53,236 Speaker 2: Like I didn't know where the other part of it 535 00:28:53,276 --> 00:28:56,476 Speaker 2: was so I think I immediately panicked. I yelled to Beth. 536 00:28:56,516 --> 00:28:58,236 Speaker 2: I was just like, oh, I just cut off my finger, 537 00:28:58,676 --> 00:29:02,996 Speaker 2: And she came over and we found it like laying 538 00:29:03,036 --> 00:29:05,956 Speaker 2: on the ground, ran into the house, put it on ice, 539 00:29:05,996 --> 00:29:07,116 Speaker 2: and drove to the hospital. 540 00:29:08,196 --> 00:29:10,076 Speaker 1: What is going through your head on the drive to 541 00:29:10,116 --> 00:29:11,156 Speaker 1: the hospital. 542 00:29:11,956 --> 00:29:14,516 Speaker 2: I mean I was. I was certainly panicking. I mean 543 00:29:14,716 --> 00:29:16,596 Speaker 2: all I could think about was climbing, Like I had 544 00:29:16,596 --> 00:29:19,236 Speaker 2: gotten to this place where I was, I was a 545 00:29:19,276 --> 00:29:22,076 Speaker 2: professional climber. I was living kind of my ultimate life 546 00:29:22,116 --> 00:29:24,076 Speaker 2: I had, but there's all this curiosity about where I 547 00:29:24,076 --> 00:29:27,036 Speaker 2: could take it. It was sort of my coping mechanism 548 00:29:27,036 --> 00:29:29,836 Speaker 2: for Kyrgyzstan in some ways, like this was the thing 549 00:29:29,876 --> 00:29:32,676 Speaker 2: that I could focus on that could both distract me 550 00:29:32,756 --> 00:29:35,676 Speaker 2: and empower me, and that was what was keeping me 551 00:29:36,356 --> 00:29:39,836 Speaker 2: happy and stable in life. And then suddenly maybe that 552 00:29:40,076 --> 00:29:44,276 Speaker 2: is gone too. So I was panicking. I mean, at first, 553 00:29:44,276 --> 00:29:46,316 Speaker 2: we're just we're just holding on to hope. I'd heard 554 00:29:46,356 --> 00:29:49,596 Speaker 2: stories about people chopping off fingers and then reattaching them 555 00:29:49,596 --> 00:29:53,076 Speaker 2: and everything being just fine. You know, like finger reattachment 556 00:29:53,076 --> 00:29:56,716 Speaker 2: surgery is usually relatively successful thing. At least it was 557 00:29:56,756 --> 00:30:00,436 Speaker 2: in my mind. The doctor came into the room and 558 00:30:00,516 --> 00:30:03,036 Speaker 2: he you know, sat bethling me down, and he's like, 559 00:30:03,236 --> 00:30:06,156 Speaker 2: we've done everything we can. Your finger is dead. We're 560 00:30:06,196 --> 00:30:08,756 Speaker 2: going to do one final surgery and remove it. And 561 00:30:09,276 --> 00:30:12,156 Speaker 2: you know, I'm sorry. And he was a climber. Actually 562 00:30:12,596 --> 00:30:14,636 Speaker 2: that our doctor ended up being a climber as well, 563 00:30:14,956 --> 00:30:17,316 Speaker 2: and he and so he along with that, he said 564 00:30:17,356 --> 00:30:20,076 Speaker 2: that he told us that he's like, you should start 565 00:30:20,076 --> 00:30:21,636 Speaker 2: thinking about what else you want to do in life, 566 00:30:21,676 --> 00:30:23,596 Speaker 2: because you're not you're not going to be able to 567 00:30:23,596 --> 00:30:25,476 Speaker 2: like be a professional climber anymore. 568 00:30:26,356 --> 00:30:29,076 Speaker 1: And when you first heard that, do you agree with him? 569 00:30:29,196 --> 00:30:30,676 Speaker 1: I mean, did you believe that was going to be 570 00:30:30,676 --> 00:30:31,076 Speaker 1: the case? 571 00:30:31,356 --> 00:30:33,116 Speaker 2: Well, I mean I think I heard that, and I 572 00:30:33,196 --> 00:30:37,756 Speaker 2: was just like incredibly sad and trying to absorb that. 573 00:30:38,036 --> 00:30:40,076 Speaker 2: I mean, once again, I feel like this has been 574 00:30:40,116 --> 00:30:41,716 Speaker 2: a theme in my life. I have these things that 575 00:30:41,796 --> 00:30:43,476 Speaker 2: are said or things that happened to me that are 576 00:30:43,516 --> 00:30:46,276 Speaker 2: almost like too grand for me to comprehend in the moment, 577 00:30:46,396 --> 00:30:48,316 Speaker 2: and it takes a long time to really figure it out. 578 00:30:48,876 --> 00:30:52,276 Speaker 2: But he left the room and then Beth looked over 579 00:30:52,316 --> 00:30:54,316 Speaker 2: at me and she's like, fuck that guy. He has 580 00:30:54,316 --> 00:30:56,716 Speaker 2: an idea, what well you're capable of it? That was 581 00:30:56,756 --> 00:30:58,516 Speaker 2: like the perfect thing to say, you know, I think 582 00:30:58,516 --> 00:31:00,956 Speaker 2: I came out of that hospital with like kind of 583 00:31:00,996 --> 00:31:05,236 Speaker 2: this conviction that was driven partially from like this idea 584 00:31:05,276 --> 00:31:06,756 Speaker 2: that I might be able to overk him, but also 585 00:31:06,876 --> 00:31:08,716 Speaker 2: driven a lot by the fear that I've that I 586 00:31:08,836 --> 00:31:11,116 Speaker 2: just like this thing that was incredibly important to me, 587 00:31:11,476 --> 00:31:13,196 Speaker 2: and I wanted to do everything I could, like I 588 00:31:13,276 --> 00:31:15,236 Speaker 2: might as well do everything I can at that point 589 00:31:15,276 --> 00:31:17,316 Speaker 2: to try and prove him wrong. 590 00:31:17,836 --> 00:31:21,316 Speaker 1: Do you think you're experiencing Kyrgyzstan increased your resolve to 591 00:31:21,316 --> 00:31:23,436 Speaker 1: give climbing another go? Like do you think you would 592 00:31:23,436 --> 00:31:25,956 Speaker 1: have actually tried if that experience hadn't happened and you 593 00:31:25,996 --> 00:31:27,516 Speaker 1: hadn't seen your limits? 594 00:31:29,436 --> 00:31:31,716 Speaker 2: I think what it did for me is that it 595 00:31:31,916 --> 00:31:36,276 Speaker 2: made me not fear failure in a weird way, like 596 00:31:36,876 --> 00:31:39,756 Speaker 2: I'd had to confront the worst things that I can 597 00:31:39,836 --> 00:31:42,356 Speaker 2: imagine in my life in a lot of ways, and 598 00:31:42,396 --> 00:31:44,356 Speaker 2: in some ways it like wasn't so bad, you know. 599 00:31:44,436 --> 00:31:46,756 Speaker 2: I Mean it was really bad in some ways, but 600 00:31:46,836 --> 00:31:48,756 Speaker 2: in other ways, I'm like, I lived through it. I 601 00:31:49,116 --> 00:31:53,396 Speaker 2: can find strength through this and that drive, that drive 602 00:31:53,436 --> 00:31:57,716 Speaker 2: that you can feel only in those moments is like 603 00:31:57,756 --> 00:32:00,356 Speaker 2: this moment that you have to seize, you know, It's 604 00:32:00,396 --> 00:32:02,836 Speaker 2: like that only lasts for so long, and so you 605 00:32:02,916 --> 00:32:05,796 Speaker 2: have to capture it, absorb it, and let it, let 606 00:32:05,836 --> 00:32:07,996 Speaker 2: it like push you forward. 607 00:32:08,396 --> 00:32:13,116 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, big change can do that. Wow. What were 608 00:32:13,116 --> 00:32:16,676 Speaker 1: those early first few climbing days Like, so. 609 00:32:16,636 --> 00:32:18,636 Speaker 2: I went straight to the climbing gym, I think from 610 00:32:18,716 --> 00:32:22,116 Speaker 2: the hospital, Like I don't only think we went home inane. 611 00:32:24,196 --> 00:32:26,236 Speaker 1: I love that though you're so passionate about it, you 612 00:32:26,236 --> 00:32:28,236 Speaker 1: couldn't wait to get back on Yeah. 613 00:32:28,276 --> 00:32:29,956 Speaker 2: I mean I'd been laying in a hospital bed for 614 00:32:30,396 --> 00:32:33,076 Speaker 2: two weeks, so I was pretty excited to move. And 615 00:32:33,116 --> 00:32:34,916 Speaker 2: then the doctor had told me that since the finger 616 00:32:35,036 --> 00:32:36,956 Speaker 2: was gone, I couldn't really do any more harm, and 617 00:32:37,036 --> 00:32:39,756 Speaker 2: so I was really curious to see how my you know, 618 00:32:39,916 --> 00:32:43,916 Speaker 2: newly remodeled hand was going to work. And we went 619 00:32:43,996 --> 00:32:46,396 Speaker 2: straight to the gym and it was. It was really 620 00:32:46,396 --> 00:32:48,756 Speaker 2: hard at first, and I was like, Okay, this is 621 00:32:48,756 --> 00:32:51,276 Speaker 2: a starting point I can I can take this and 622 00:32:51,396 --> 00:32:55,516 Speaker 2: improve on it. And then, you know, I went back 623 00:32:55,556 --> 00:32:58,556 Speaker 2: to the climbing gym at first, like basically every day, 624 00:32:58,876 --> 00:33:00,876 Speaker 2: and each day I would feel a little bit stronger 625 00:33:00,916 --> 00:33:02,436 Speaker 2: and a little bit stronger, and before I knew it, 626 00:33:02,476 --> 00:33:05,036 Speaker 2: I was sort of exceeding my own expectations. And that 627 00:33:05,116 --> 00:33:07,876 Speaker 2: started this pretty incredible flywheel where I was like, Wow, 628 00:33:07,916 --> 00:33:11,116 Speaker 2: this is actually working. My strength is coming back, And 629 00:33:11,236 --> 00:33:13,556 Speaker 2: within a couple of months, I actually was back at 630 00:33:13,556 --> 00:33:16,356 Speaker 2: the level of climbing that I had been before I 631 00:33:16,436 --> 00:33:18,756 Speaker 2: chopped off my finger. Like, I went back to other 632 00:33:18,796 --> 00:33:21,636 Speaker 2: climbs that I had had as climbing project, and I 633 00:33:21,676 --> 00:33:24,236 Speaker 2: was able to do them again, and I was like, Wow, 634 00:33:24,276 --> 00:33:26,356 Speaker 2: this is working. I can't believe I'm overcoming this. This is 635 00:33:26,476 --> 00:33:29,436 Speaker 2: so exciting. And then I didn't stop there. I just 636 00:33:29,596 --> 00:33:33,596 Speaker 2: kept on getting better and better, and you know, in 637 00:33:33,636 --> 00:33:37,236 Speaker 2: some ways it was like a super magical time for me. 638 00:33:38,076 --> 00:33:41,236 Speaker 1: There's no manual for how to climb with nine fingers, 639 00:33:41,236 --> 00:33:47,716 Speaker 1: so you're also having to relearn key form elements of climbing, right, 640 00:33:48,356 --> 00:33:50,156 Speaker 1: how does that happen? Like do you have to fully 641 00:33:50,156 --> 00:33:53,156 Speaker 1: adjust your your strategy like the way that you climb 642 00:33:53,316 --> 00:33:55,276 Speaker 1: a wall. 643 00:33:55,476 --> 00:33:58,676 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's experimental. Climbing is always experimental, like 644 00:33:58,796 --> 00:34:01,756 Speaker 2: you're always playing with how to do moves differently, and 645 00:34:01,796 --> 00:34:04,836 Speaker 2: so I was just doing that, but without a finger, 646 00:34:04,956 --> 00:34:07,956 Speaker 2: you know, I sort of cherished that experimenting, Like my 647 00:34:08,076 --> 00:34:11,556 Speaker 2: dad actually welded me up the specific finger strength like 648 00:34:11,676 --> 00:34:14,676 Speaker 2: weightlifting machine just for your fingers though, and so I 649 00:34:14,716 --> 00:34:17,116 Speaker 2: started using that a bunch, and I got more and 650 00:34:17,516 --> 00:34:20,156 Speaker 2: more scientific about building finger strength. 651 00:34:21,036 --> 00:34:24,476 Speaker 1: Okay, so you decide to climb one of the most 652 00:34:24,556 --> 00:34:28,596 Speaker 1: impossible rock faces I think in the world. Is that right? 653 00:34:28,636 --> 00:34:32,236 Speaker 1: I mean, the Don Wall. Most people deemed it impossible. 654 00:34:33,276 --> 00:34:35,636 Speaker 1: And I want to know what was your motivation for that? 655 00:34:35,676 --> 00:34:36,996 Speaker 1: What were you hoping to achieve? 656 00:34:38,076 --> 00:34:40,316 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean so this was after my you know, 657 00:34:40,356 --> 00:34:43,436 Speaker 2: after I came back from chopping off my finger. You know, 658 00:34:43,476 --> 00:34:45,396 Speaker 2: that was sort of when I kept just doing harder 659 00:34:45,436 --> 00:34:48,316 Speaker 2: and harder roots, and I became the person that knew 660 00:34:48,316 --> 00:34:51,556 Speaker 2: more about big wall free climbing on El Capitan than 661 00:34:51,596 --> 00:34:53,316 Speaker 2: any you know, I'd spent more time up there, I'd 662 00:34:53,316 --> 00:34:58,476 Speaker 2: done more roots than anybody. The Don Wall, it is 663 00:34:58,756 --> 00:35:01,356 Speaker 2: by far the hardest big wall free climb in the 664 00:35:01,356 --> 00:35:04,916 Speaker 2: world to anybody except for me, at the time, just 665 00:35:05,036 --> 00:35:06,756 Speaker 2: looked like a pane of glass. Like you look up 666 00:35:06,796 --> 00:35:08,436 Speaker 2: at the wall and you're like, there's nothing to hold 667 00:35:08,476 --> 00:35:10,436 Speaker 2: on to. There's no way you could ever climb this thing. 668 00:35:11,436 --> 00:35:12,876 Speaker 2: Like I said, I had spent so much time up 669 00:35:12,876 --> 00:35:15,196 Speaker 2: there that I knew that sometimes these little edges formed 670 00:35:15,236 --> 00:35:18,876 Speaker 2: on these faces that look totally blank from below. But 671 00:35:18,956 --> 00:35:20,796 Speaker 2: this is just it was such a big scale that 672 00:35:20,876 --> 00:35:25,676 Speaker 2: piecing it together was this incredible puzzle, which ended up 673 00:35:25,676 --> 00:35:28,596 Speaker 2: taking me a year just to figure out the route, 674 00:35:28,716 --> 00:35:32,836 Speaker 2: and then another like seven years to build the strength 675 00:35:32,876 --> 00:35:36,276 Speaker 2: and everything to pull it together. I guess I saw 676 00:35:36,876 --> 00:35:39,356 Speaker 2: pushing that venue to be the one place in the 677 00:35:39,396 --> 00:35:43,196 Speaker 2: world where I could really explore something that nobody else had. 678 00:35:43,756 --> 00:35:47,756 Speaker 1: At any point, did you experience the intensity of the 679 00:35:47,836 --> 00:35:51,076 Speaker 1: Kyrgyzstan flow state when you were climbing the down wall. 680 00:35:51,716 --> 00:35:53,876 Speaker 2: I feel like I did actually on the final on 681 00:35:53,956 --> 00:35:58,436 Speaker 2: the final go, like when we successfully climbed to the thing. 682 00:35:58,516 --> 00:36:00,236 Speaker 2: So me and my partner Kevin Jorgan said, you know, 683 00:36:00,316 --> 00:36:04,356 Speaker 2: we spent seven years. We would fix ropes to the wall, 684 00:36:04,396 --> 00:36:06,076 Speaker 2: and we would descend up and down the ropes, and 685 00:36:06,116 --> 00:36:08,356 Speaker 2: we would try all the different sections and we would 686 00:36:08,436 --> 00:36:11,236 Speaker 2: learn it all, and then when we finally went up 687 00:36:11,636 --> 00:36:14,356 Speaker 2: and successfully climbed the route. I think when I climbed 688 00:36:14,396 --> 00:36:17,636 Speaker 2: those pitches, it was this moment of incredible flow, like 689 00:36:17,676 --> 00:36:21,956 Speaker 2: sudden there was so much pressure and anxiety and excitement 690 00:36:22,196 --> 00:36:26,276 Speaker 2: wrapped up in the seven years of preparing for this 691 00:36:26,436 --> 00:36:32,236 Speaker 2: that when it happened, it felt magical, like that clarity emerged. 692 00:36:32,316 --> 00:36:36,156 Speaker 2: I felt weightless. There was this incredible flow. It was yeah, 693 00:36:36,236 --> 00:36:36,916 Speaker 2: very magical. 694 00:36:59,716 --> 00:37:02,356 Speaker 1: Hey, thanks for listening. See you next week when I 695 00:37:02,356 --> 00:37:05,396 Speaker 1: talk with Megan Phelps Roper. She grew up a devout 696 00:37:05,396 --> 00:37:08,156 Speaker 1: believer in the Westboro Baptist Church, one of the most 697 00:37:08,276 --> 00:37:11,916 Speaker 1: rabid hate group in America, but then in her mid twenties, 698 00:37:12,156 --> 00:37:13,356 Speaker 1: she walked away from it all. 699 00:37:14,116 --> 00:37:17,156 Speaker 3: It felt like this physical, like I had a giant 700 00:37:17,356 --> 00:37:20,636 Speaker 3: boulder sitting on my chest and I couldn't breathe, and 701 00:37:20,676 --> 00:37:23,636 Speaker 3: I couldn't see around it, and I had no vision 702 00:37:23,676 --> 00:37:26,436 Speaker 3: of the future. I had no idea what my life 703 00:37:26,516 --> 00:37:27,236 Speaker 3: was going to look like. 704 00:37:37,276 --> 00:37:40,276 Speaker 1: A slight change of plans is created an executive produce 705 00:37:40,356 --> 00:37:44,356 Speaker 1: by me Maya Schunker. Big thanks to everyone at Pushkin Industries, 706 00:37:44,796 --> 00:37:48,996 Speaker 1: including our producer Mola Board, associate producers David Jaw and 707 00:37:49,076 --> 00:37:53,916 Speaker 1: Julia Goodman, executive producers Mea Lavelle and Justin Lange, senior 708 00:37:54,076 --> 00:37:57,836 Speaker 1: editor Jen Guera, and sound design and mixed engineers Ben 709 00:37:57,916 --> 00:38:02,156 Speaker 1: Holliday and Jason Gambrell. Thanks also to Luis Gara who 710 00:38:02,236 --> 00:38:04,796 Speaker 1: wrote our theme song, and Ginger Smith who helped arrange 711 00:38:04,796 --> 00:38:09,116 Speaker 1: the vocals, incidental music from Epidemic Sound, and of course, 712 00:38:09,116 --> 00:38:12,596 Speaker 1: of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You 713 00:38:12,596 --> 00:38:15,276 Speaker 1: can follow a slight change of plans on Instagram at 714 00:38:15,316 --> 00:38:26,596 Speaker 1: doctor Maya Schunker. I have to say I'm a little 715 00:38:26,596 --> 00:38:28,356 Speaker 1: bit I was a little bit sheepish about doing this 716 00:38:28,396 --> 00:38:31,636 Speaker 1: interview because I was like a budding concert violinist as 717 00:38:31,676 --> 00:38:34,356 Speaker 1: a kid, and then when I was fifteen, I had 718 00:38:34,396 --> 00:38:36,956 Speaker 1: a hand injury in which I tore tendons in my 719 00:38:36,996 --> 00:38:40,236 Speaker 1: hand and doctors told me that I could never play again. 720 00:38:40,316 --> 00:38:42,436 Speaker 1: So my life had to take a totally different route 721 00:38:42,476 --> 00:38:45,316 Speaker 1: from that point forward. But I feel like you would 722 00:38:45,316 --> 00:38:47,076 Speaker 1: have been the dude to play the violin with like 723 00:38:47,116 --> 00:38:51,636 Speaker 1: four fingers and like crush it. So I just feel like, yeah, 724 00:38:51,716 --> 00:38:53,716 Speaker 1: didn't really step up. I was like, oh, the doctor 725 00:38:53,756 --> 00:38:57,636 Speaker 1: said I can't play, I guess I won't play. But anyway, 726 00:38:57,836 --> 00:38:59,156 Speaker 1: some of us are than others. 727 00:38:59,156 --> 00:39:03,036 Speaker 2: I'm glad we could start the interview by me one