1
00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:04,040
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Markets Podcast. I'm Paul Sweeney alongside

2
00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:06,920
Speaker 1: my co host Matt Miller. Every business day we bring

3
00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:11,520
Speaker 1: you interviews from CEOs, market pros, and Bloomberg experts, along

4
00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:15,600
Speaker 1: with essential market moving news. Find the Bloomberg Markets Podcast

5
00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:18,479
Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts, and

6
00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:23,480
Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot com slash podcast. Let's spring in. Bradford

7
00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:27,080
Speaker 1: Evarand's portfolio manager and senior VP at Heartland Advisors. I

8
00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:31,600
Speaker 1: want to talk to you bred about balance sheets. I

9
00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:34,320
Speaker 1: started my career lending money to media companies, so we

10
00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:37,360
Speaker 1: always looked at net at the bat and coverage ratios

11
00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:39,560
Speaker 1: and all that kind of good stuff. Now I've got

12
00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:43,520
Speaker 1: interest rates rising. Is there interest rate risk out there

13
00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:48,240
Speaker 1: for more companies? And maybe we're thinking about well, Paul

14
00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:50,280
Speaker 1: to pleasure to be with you. Thanks for having me. Um.

15
00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:52,239
Speaker 1: What I would just tell you is, you know, you

16
00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:55,600
Speaker 1: know Heartland we're we're a value boutique here in Milwaukee,

17
00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:58,000
Speaker 1: and I managed one of our small cap portfolios and

18
00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:01,840
Speaker 1: our goal is to invest or investment cycles, and you know,

19
00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:04,800
Speaker 1: we seek to invest in undervalued small cap stocks that

20
00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:08,560
Speaker 1: have strong balance sheets, paid dividends and generate strong free

21
00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:11,320
Speaker 1: cash flow that I will just tell you that. You know,

22
00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:15,160
Speaker 1: we're in an environment where, you know, for most investors

23
00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:18,120
Speaker 1: at a high level, balance sheets only matter when there's

24
00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:21,920
Speaker 1: credit stress, and you know, most investors are focused on

25
00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:24,680
Speaker 1: earnings and earnings growth, and you know, balance sheets matter

26
00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:26,800
Speaker 1: especially when the feed is raising its race and the

27
00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:29,120
Speaker 1: old the old match goes don't fight the feds. So

28
00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:32,039
Speaker 1: we think, you know, our process, which you know, you

29
00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:34,400
Speaker 1: know has been tested through various bowl and bear markets

30
00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:38,600
Speaker 1: and through cycles, is a prudent strategy in this of

31
00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:41,720
Speaker 1: our because especially in small cap space, we have a

32
00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:43,679
Speaker 1: lot of companies that are improfitable. We have a lot

33
00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:46,120
Speaker 1: of companies that are very shaky balance sheets, and we

34
00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:48,640
Speaker 1: have a lot of companies that have very secularly challenged

35
00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:51,320
Speaker 1: growth outlooks. And so our job is to weed through

36
00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:55,040
Speaker 1: all that shafe and find things that are interesting and

37
00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:58,040
Speaker 1: have you have investment merit through um you know, through

38
00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:00,240
Speaker 1: an investment cycle that we look for between you know,

39
00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:03,400
Speaker 1: two to three years. Is that the focus? Is that

40
00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:06,400
Speaker 1: your professional focus? Because I noticed you were recognized as

41
00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:09,799
Speaker 1: a category king manager by the Wall Street Journal. I

42
00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:13,800
Speaker 1: don't know what that is. So you know, Heartland has

43
00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:17,359
Speaker 1: long been known for value investing in the Heartland. Value

44
00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:20,440
Speaker 1: plus one, which I do lead manages, is a dividend

45
00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:24,320
Speaker 1: focused small cap fund that looks for undervalued small companies

46
00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:26,800
Speaker 1: which pay dividends. And you know, we we think we

47
00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:30,560
Speaker 1: think low debt has merits always because you know, low

48
00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:34,760
Speaker 1: debt companies have lower volatility than their high debt counterparts.

49
00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:36,760
Speaker 1: So that's an important dynamic, especially as the feed is

50
00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:40,760
Speaker 1: raising rates and lowers volatility, especially in a portfolio context.

51
00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:44,200
Speaker 1: You know, there's an environment also where you know, highly

52
00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,919
Speaker 1: levered companies have much less flexibility in terms of free

53
00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:49,720
Speaker 1: cash flow deployment, and especially as we're going through a

54
00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:53,079
Speaker 1: downturn or I should say maybe an economic that economy

55
00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:56,240
Speaker 1: that is peaking, and the feed that is is messaging

56
00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:59,919
Speaker 1: an aggressive rate cycle to tame the inflationary pressures. UH

57
00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:02,680
Speaker 1: having having free cash flow flexibility to buy back stock

58
00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:04,720
Speaker 1: if it's under value, to service any debt you might

59
00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:07,600
Speaker 1: have to maintain your dividends, and then maybe you know,

60
00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:11,040
Speaker 1: look for attractive m and A opportunities when others are

61
00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:14,440
Speaker 1: not is really a recipe to win. Especially you know,

62
00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:17,720
Speaker 1: we often see um and we saw this the COVID

63
00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:19,960
Speaker 1: crisis is balance sheets were very stress going into the

64
00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:22,520
Speaker 1: COVID crisis, and that was as a result of you know,

65
00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:25,720
Speaker 1: really interest rates being very low and many companies you know,

66
00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:29,079
Speaker 1: feast down that low leverage to acquire companies at high valuations.

67
00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:31,320
Speaker 1: And the end result of that was you know a

68
00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:33,720
Speaker 1: lot of pain for investors as as as we saw

69
00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:36,560
Speaker 1: the COVID recession, I can understand. I mean, how you

70
00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:43,080
Speaker 1: screen for UH small cap value stocks, especially then you

71
00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:44,640
Speaker 1: go look at the balance sheet and you can make

72
00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:46,720
Speaker 1: that judgment. How do you know if the company is

73
00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:50,880
Speaker 1: an M and a candidate, Well, we never really make

74
00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:53,800
Speaker 1: an investment with that as a as you know, the

75
00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:56,640
Speaker 1: necessary outcome. But usually what we find is, you know,

76
00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:00,880
Speaker 1: in the in the small cap space, higher quality companies

77
00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:04,520
Speaker 1: that are on the bargain bin um. They might be underloved,

78
00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:06,320
Speaker 1: under followed. But if if we have managed teams that

79
00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:08,720
Speaker 1: are effectively pursuing a strategy we like to call it

80
00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:12,680
Speaker 1: a self help strategy, which is really where where management

81
00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:15,920
Speaker 1: teams are very internally focused. They're focused on reducing costs,

82
00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:20,400
Speaker 1: perhaps restructuring operations, or perhaps divesting non core assets that

83
00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:24,600
Speaker 1: might be deluded to their overall organization. From a margin perspective,

84
00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:28,560
Speaker 1: we usually find those self help stories as being ones

85
00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,400
Speaker 1: where they don't need the macro economic environment really to

86
00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:33,720
Speaker 1: give them tail winds to to to be successful in

87
00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,880
Speaker 1: driving operating leverage in margin expansion. They really need to

88
00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:39,440
Speaker 1: focus on on on their internal asset base and their

89
00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:43,000
Speaker 1: existing operations to drive value for shareholders. And especially in

90
00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:44,840
Speaker 1: an environment where perhaps the FETE is going to be

91
00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:47,400
Speaker 1: on the prowel with higher interest rates, that we think

92
00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:49,040
Speaker 1: that's going to be an effective place to be. And

93
00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:52,800
Speaker 1: just answer your question, Uh, those self help strategies, you know,

94
00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:55,800
Speaker 1: those companies that are perhaps underloved, under followed because of

95
00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:58,440
Speaker 1: some self inflicted internal issue. If they are successful in

96
00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:01,120
Speaker 1: pursuing that self help strategy on top of having a

97
00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:03,560
Speaker 1: strong balance sheet, those companies usually become a part of

98
00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:06,480
Speaker 1: large organizations over time. Andy Brad thinks so much for

99
00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:09,039
Speaker 1: joining us. We really appreciated. Bradford Evans, portfolio manager and

100
00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:16,400
Speaker 1: senior VP at Heartland Advisor Small Cap Value. All right,

101
00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:18,440
Speaker 1: here's the conversation of the morning, at least for me.

102
00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:21,680
Speaker 1: One of the questions that I've had as we look

103
00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:24,560
Speaker 1: at what's unfolding in Ukraine over the last couple of

104
00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,320
Speaker 1: months is what did the Russian people know? Did they

105
00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:29,240
Speaker 1: do they know? The A that there's a war on

106
00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:33,479
Speaker 1: be the conduct of the Russian military within Ukraine? And

107
00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:35,600
Speaker 1: if so, what is their level of support for Mr

108
00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:41,080
Speaker 1: Putin and this war? Unfortunately? Leonide Burschitski, columnist for Bloomberg Opinions,

109
00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:44,160
Speaker 1: out with a column on that today. So leon and

110
00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:47,159
Speaker 1: do you have a sense of what the Russian people

111
00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:52,880
Speaker 1: know about what's going on in Ukraine? Well, uh, Russia

112
00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:57,680
Speaker 1: has turned into a pretty close society recently, so I

113
00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:01,520
Speaker 1: can only make an educated guess. But my educated guess

114
00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:05,120
Speaker 1: is that they is that people inside Russia know a

115
00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:09,080
Speaker 1: lot about what's going on, and they understand correctly what

116
00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:14,360
Speaker 1: is going on. So they're not really taken in by

117
00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:19,080
Speaker 1: the by the propaganda, even if they might say they are.

118
00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:24,440
Speaker 1: So am I to assume then that they tacitly approve

119
00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:31,880
Speaker 1: putting conduct in Ukraine? Well, you know, in a police state, uh,

120
00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:36,839
Speaker 1: and sort of a copy of the Soviet Union that

121
00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:41,479
Speaker 1: Russia has turned into. Now they're mostly business surviving, so

122
00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:48,120
Speaker 1: it's not really um, you know, tacit agreement or acquiescence

123
00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:51,560
Speaker 1: to what the Russian military is doing in Ukraine. It's

124
00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:54,880
Speaker 1: it's you know, every man for himself and every woman.

125
00:06:56,040 --> 00:07:00,599
Speaker 1: You know, people are just trying to basically avoid clashing

126
00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:06,160
Speaker 1: directly with the regime mostly. Yeah, I mean it's understandable, um, right,

127
00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:08,400
Speaker 1: when we see these surveys, I kind of wonder how

128
00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,600
Speaker 1: many people were being honest. To hear from friends of

129
00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:14,160
Speaker 1: mine that grew up in East Germany that they would

130
00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:19,000
Speaker 1: not criticize the state publicly, not on the telephone, not

131
00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:23,400
Speaker 1: at school, UM, for fear of being um, you know,

132
00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:27,360
Speaker 1: punished exactly. And and this is you know, this is

133
00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:31,000
Speaker 1: a time ownered Soviet instinct. Especially the older generation of

134
00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:34,840
Speaker 1: Russians remember remembers how it used to be, and they

135
00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:38,640
Speaker 1: would never whatever they think about what's going on, they

136
00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:43,200
Speaker 1: would never publicly express those opinions or say anything on

137
00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:46,360
Speaker 1: the phone or on Skype or on any method of

138
00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:51,160
Speaker 1: remote communication, because they assume that even if the authorities

139
00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:54,720
Speaker 1: aren't listening, they can listen in So, you know, here

140
00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:57,679
Speaker 1: in the US, UM, and I guess in Western Europe

141
00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:00,760
Speaker 1: as well. Younger generations don't really watch tell Vision anymore.

142
00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:06,600
Speaker 1: Everyone um gets entertainment and information from the Internet. And

143
00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:11,560
Speaker 1: I noticed, especially Europeans use VPNs a lot the what

144
00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:16,880
Speaker 1: is that virtual personal network virtual private original private network.

145
00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:19,800
Speaker 1: In your column you point out that even to Metri

146
00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:24,680
Speaker 1: Pascoff uses a VPN, So does everybody in Russia have one? Uh? Well,

147
00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:29,320
Speaker 1: the VPNs actually have been uh all of the top

148
00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:35,719
Speaker 1: four most downloaded epps in March or VPNs in Russia. Um,

149
00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:39,520
Speaker 1: and the fifth one was telegram, uh, you know, the

150
00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,760
Speaker 1: encrypted messenger. And this allows people to get around state

151
00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:47,679
Speaker 1: controls of the Internet. Basically, yes, it does. Uh. It

152
00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:51,679
Speaker 1: allows them to get around state controls of both information

153
00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:58,160
Speaker 1: and and and entertainment. Basically, the you know, those Western

154
00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:02,160
Speaker 1: services lake Netflix that have with Russia are still accessible

155
00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:05,240
Speaker 1: via VPN, so a lot of people download these to

156
00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:09,360
Speaker 1: be able to, you know, watch their favorite UH TV series.

157
00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:14,120
Speaker 1: You know. I've been thinking that at the very least

158
00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:17,480
Speaker 1: Mr Putin will never ever be accepted back onto the

159
00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:19,720
Speaker 1: world stage, will never see him at a G twenty summit.

160
00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:22,040
Speaker 1: Now I'm wondering, as we go into the second and

161
00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:26,480
Speaker 1: third month of this war Russia itself, are what is

162
00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:29,959
Speaker 1: the feeling about Russia in terms of being part of

163
00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,400
Speaker 1: the world community, Because it seems like at this point,

164
00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:34,719
Speaker 1: based upon their behavior over the past couple of months

165
00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:37,920
Speaker 1: in Ukraine that they are not welcomed in the world order.

166
00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:41,760
Speaker 1: Does the average Russian even care about any of that? Well,

167
00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:44,800
Speaker 1: the average Russian, as I said, it is probably business surviving.

168
00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:48,520
Speaker 1: You know, those who have not left the country, those

169
00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:54,120
Speaker 1: who have left the country are obviously feeling uh certain

170
00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:59,480
Speaker 1: change of changing attitudes. And you know, Russians are not

171
00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:03,280
Speaker 1: not welcome in many places where they used to be welcome,

172
00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:09,680
Speaker 1: and they're not um you know, treated with um, you

173
00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:13,160
Speaker 1: know as treason is in the same friendly way as

174
00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:16,640
Speaker 1: as they used to be treated in many places. Uh.

175
00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:22,760
Speaker 1: Inside Russia, people perhaps have not felt this yet, but

176
00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:26,800
Speaker 1: it is a similar situation to the one that Germans

177
00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:31,160
Speaker 1: found themselves in after World War Two. Yeah, I will

178
00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:34,560
Speaker 1: actually even say, you know, Leonard, I was living in

179
00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:40,200
Speaker 1: Berlin um around two thousand two, two thousand three, and

180
00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:44,360
Speaker 1: I was welcome at all parties before the invasion of Iraq.

181
00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:48,040
Speaker 1: That basically the day the US invaded Iraq, and if

182
00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:51,440
Speaker 1: you recall at the time, it was without um the

183
00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:54,840
Speaker 1: approval of Gerhard Schroeder and the German government. The day

184
00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:57,640
Speaker 1: after that, I was like persona non grata. And it

185
00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:01,200
Speaker 1: sounds silly, but it is absolutely true. I I felt

186
00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:04,760
Speaker 1: it instantly. Do you feel the same kind of did

187
00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:07,600
Speaker 1: you feel the same kind of turn or do your friends,

188
00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:11,320
Speaker 1: um Russian friends around Berlin or in Western Europe feel

189
00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:14,480
Speaker 1: the same kind of change all of a sudden, Well

190
00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:18,360
Speaker 1: as somebody tried to set my daughter's school on fire,

191
00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:23,080
Speaker 1: which is a biolinqual school. Uh. So you know, you

192
00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:27,439
Speaker 1: get um, all sorts of people and all sorts of attitudes,

193
00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:35,079
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, you get nasty reactions sometimes from

194
00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:39,120
Speaker 1: some people when you speak Russian in public. Uh, you

195
00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:44,680
Speaker 1: have to basically, well I can't really say take it

196
00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:49,319
Speaker 1: and stride, but you have to accept it as um

197
00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:53,960
Speaker 1: sort of normal retribution retribution for what the you know,

198
00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:56,800
Speaker 1: the country's military is doing. I mean, as as Russians,

199
00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:59,720
Speaker 1: we all bear part of the responsibility for not stopping

200
00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:02,600
Speaker 1: this time Leonid, the thirty seconds left. How do you

201
00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:08,320
Speaker 1: think this ends in Ukraine? H? Well, I I don't

202
00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:12,680
Speaker 1: think it ends in the foreseeable future. Okay, but do

203
00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:15,280
Speaker 1: you think the people, I mean, is Putin's position within

204
00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:18,439
Speaker 1: Russia as strong as it ever has been. There's and

205
00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,719
Speaker 1: there's relatively low risk that the people will overthrow him,

206
00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:25,319
Speaker 1: overthrow the current the current level of repression. I don't

207
00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:29,880
Speaker 1: think this is imminent in any way. All Right, lady Brushitski,

208
00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:32,880
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us, giving us really

209
00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:38,080
Speaker 1: fascinating column there for uh Bloomberg opinion, just talking about uh,

210
00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:40,440
Speaker 1: you know, as someone who used to live in Russian

211
00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:42,640
Speaker 1: and as a Russian now in Berlin, giving us his

212
00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:46,040
Speaker 1: thoughts about what's happening in Ukraine from the Russian perspective,

213
00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:47,640
Speaker 1: and again it just kind of begs a question, what

214
00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:50,880
Speaker 1: did the Russian people really know? Uh? And based upon

215
00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:54,360
Speaker 1: that knowledge, how supportive are they of the Russian state,

216
00:12:54,400 --> 00:13:00,240
Speaker 1: the Russian Army, the Russian policy towards Ukraine. All right,

217
00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:03,840
Speaker 1: let's talk about stocks here. Peter McNally joins US Series

218
00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:09,360
Speaker 1: Global Lead looks at industrials, materials, energy, Third Bridge Group Limited. Uh, Peter,

219
00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:11,679
Speaker 1: we had Delta come out with some numbers today, some

220
00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:14,800
Speaker 1: good numbers, some good guidance. What's your call on the

221
00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:17,880
Speaker 1: airline space here? Are we kind of back or are

222
00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:20,400
Speaker 1: we still waiting for the business side of the of

223
00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:24,560
Speaker 1: of flying to come back? Well, it's gonna be with you, guys.

224
00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:27,520
Speaker 1: I mean, revenue is coming back. It has been, you know,

225
00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,719
Speaker 1: particularly on the on the leisure side. There's still a

226
00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:34,920
Speaker 1: ways to go though in business and long haul international.

227
00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:37,400
Speaker 1: But what haven't come back yet have been profits, right.

228
00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,520
Speaker 1: I mean, even though Delta in the second quarter is

229
00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:45,160
Speaker 1: gonna get close close, not quite levels of revenue, it's

230
00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:49,240
Speaker 1: fundamentally less profitable because costs are higher and it's both

231
00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:52,240
Speaker 1: on labor which is the biggest cost, and fuel. But

232
00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:56,079
Speaker 1: that's coming. I mean, Delta is managing well, Um, you

233
00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:59,280
Speaker 1: know they'll be profitable most likely for the rest of

234
00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,880
Speaker 1: the year. Um. But you know, relative to expectations, things

235
00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:07,360
Speaker 1: have picked up for Delta. So what about uh, ticket

236
00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:09,600
Speaker 1: prices are they able to do they have the pricing

237
00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:14,400
Speaker 1: power to make up for rising fuel costs? Well, that

238
00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:16,719
Speaker 1: was you know, one of the key messages I think

239
00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,240
Speaker 1: that Delta delivered today is that they are getting you know,

240
00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:22,520
Speaker 1: getting pricing. You know, it's not bringing them the whole

241
00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:26,240
Speaker 1: way back, but on on a unit basis, um, they

242
00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:30,640
Speaker 1: have recovered to uh actually record levels of you know,

243
00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,880
Speaker 1: beyond where they were in twenty nineteen. There is pent

244
00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:37,600
Speaker 1: up demand for travel, that is, that is fundamental and

245
00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:41,280
Speaker 1: you know we're seeing it as you know, other countries

246
00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:45,520
Speaker 1: open up. Um, you see the bookings in in international

247
00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:48,520
Speaker 1: We've obviously been through that here in the leisure market

248
00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:53,160
Speaker 1: in the United States, and you know, Delta in particular

249
00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:56,440
Speaker 1: has been slow to add capacity. Now some of it

250
00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:00,160
Speaker 1: in the industry is because of labor constraints, you know.

251
00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:02,280
Speaker 1: We we saw Jet Blue last week, you know, actually

252
00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:04,960
Speaker 1: cut some flights because uh, you know, for the summer,

253
00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:09,520
Speaker 1: because they are concerned about staffing levels. Delta is managing

254
00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:13,600
Speaker 1: this pretty well. Uh. They may be an outlier, um,

255
00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:16,400
Speaker 1: you know, relative to the you know, to the industry,

256
00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:18,560
Speaker 1: but that is something we're gonna watch, you know, through

257
00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:21,000
Speaker 1: the summer. Yeah. I've just been on a couple of

258
00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,480
Speaker 1: flights over the past couple of weeks and the load factor,

259
00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:26,920
Speaker 1: as they say in the business, got to be near

260
00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:30,640
Speaker 1: on My planes were were packed here. Where are we

261
00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:33,320
Speaker 1: in terms of capacity? Have the airlines brought all their

262
00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:36,160
Speaker 1: capacity back online? If they've taken some of those parked

263
00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,600
Speaker 1: aircraft in the in the desert and brought him back. No,

264
00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:42,280
Speaker 1: it's been it's been slow. I mean, it looks in

265
00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:45,280
Speaker 1: the domestic leisure market, you know, you're basically there. But

266
00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:47,840
Speaker 1: you know, Delta is still only in the mid eighties

267
00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,720
Speaker 1: at this point in terms of capacity, and they're only

268
00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:54,200
Speaker 1: adding a little bit you know here in the second quarter.

269
00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:58,200
Speaker 1: Despite despite this, you know, uptick, the labor is don't

270
00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:03,640
Speaker 1: be instant in the industry. You know, pilot just people

271
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:08,840
Speaker 1: servicing the planes. Well, it's you know, it's actually like

272
00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:10,400
Speaker 1: a lot of things. I mean, Delta was even talking

273
00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,880
Speaker 1: about how within the airport they're having to take over

274
00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:17,840
Speaker 1: some of the operations themselves. Um, you know, the things

275
00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:21,240
Speaker 1: that had you know, had normally been you know, been outsourced.

276
00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,440
Speaker 1: But you know, Deltas hired like fifteen thousand people in

277
00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:28,120
Speaker 1: the last year or so. Um, you know, they do

278
00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:30,400
Speaker 1: seem to be getting out of it. But not every

279
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:34,280
Speaker 1: airline has been, let's say, as successful and hiring enough

280
00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,600
Speaker 1: people to man all these you know, all these flights.

281
00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:41,040
Speaker 1: And it began about a year ago where the airline

282
00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:44,600
Speaker 1: started talking about pilot you know, and the constraints there

283
00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:47,480
Speaker 1: and um, you know, labor issues are not going to

284
00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:50,240
Speaker 1: go away in this industry. Peter. I've I've always felt

285
00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:55,280
Speaker 1: like airlines in America don't have pricing power relative to

286
00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:59,360
Speaker 1: you know history. When I was a kid, I remember

287
00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,640
Speaker 1: flying out San Francisco to watch The Grateful Dead, and

288
00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:04,640
Speaker 1: then I did it again when they had their fifty

289
00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:06,560
Speaker 1: at the anniversary a few years back, and I paid

290
00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:09,719
Speaker 1: the same price for the same ticket, you know, twenty

291
00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,560
Speaker 1: years apart. So I thought that was a little bit weird.

292
00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:14,800
Speaker 1: But then after having lived in Europe for a while,

293
00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,280
Speaker 1: where I wouldn't have paid more than a hundred dollars

294
00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:21,760
Speaker 1: for an international ticket, Um, I feel like there's something

295
00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,800
Speaker 1: very different about this market. What what is the deal

296
00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:30,680
Speaker 1: with the US market is just an oddly regulated pocket. Well,

297
00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:34,040
Speaker 1: I mean, look, there's one thing that we learned or

298
00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:37,639
Speaker 1: maybe was you know, we were reminded of through the

299
00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:41,399
Speaker 1: pandemic is that investors, whether they're you know, credit or

300
00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:44,960
Speaker 1: equity investors, don't stop giving airlines money, you know, and

301
00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:48,879
Speaker 1: and we're able to finance this industry. We had startups,

302
00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,720
Speaker 1: we had I p o s through the pandemic, and

303
00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:55,120
Speaker 1: we've never seen a decline you know like this now.

304
00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:57,720
Speaker 1: We we we've moved a lot of planes around and

305
00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:02,080
Speaker 1: you know, fleets have in you know, reorganized and gotten

306
00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:05,679
Speaker 1: more you know, more efficient. But you know, it is

307
00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,800
Speaker 1: an industry that does you know, thrive on competition, and

308
00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:12,040
Speaker 1: there's always new you know, new entrance you know coming in.

309
00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:14,320
Speaker 1: It'll be interesting to watch you know, at the low

310
00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:16,880
Speaker 1: end of the market. This fight that has emerged over

311
00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,480
Speaker 1: spirit you know, this is the this is the ultra

312
00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:22,320
Speaker 1: low cost carrier. You know that's out there, and you

313
00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:25,600
Speaker 1: know to you know companies in there, they've they've been disruptive,

314
00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,840
Speaker 1: you know, particularly in Florida, which was been been the

315
00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:34,320
Speaker 1: hottest market in domestic travel, you know, since the since

316
00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:38,600
Speaker 1: the recovery began nearly nearly two years ago. Good stuff,

317
00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:41,720
Speaker 1: Peter McNally, thanks so much for joining us there. Timely

318
00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,160
Speaker 1: discussion there with the good numbers coming out of Delta

319
00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:46,000
Speaker 1: and they had some good guidness so about summer travel.

320
00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:49,000
Speaker 1: So good to get Peter's thoughts there. He's global lead Industrials,

321
00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:53,680
Speaker 1: Materials and Energy. Third Bridge Group is his gang over there,

322
00:18:53,720 --> 00:19:01,119
Speaker 1: so good to get an update there. Alright, tough, tough

323
00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:04,200
Speaker 1: first market for fixed income investors, and I've got a

324
00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,280
Speaker 1: foto reserve that's hell bent on raising rates throughout this year.

325
00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:09,840
Speaker 1: So what's the fixed income investor to do. Let's check

326
00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,800
Speaker 1: in with Allie Peiffer. He does it for real, Managing

327
00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:15,960
Speaker 1: director Fixed Income Coupital Markets at Raymond James ray j

328
00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:18,160
Speaker 1: as we call him in the business, great little firm

329
00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:21,280
Speaker 1: down there in Florida, competed against him for a long time.

330
00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:25,080
Speaker 1: Good stuff, ellis UM talk to us about investing the

331
00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:29,560
Speaker 1: fixed income markets these days? What do you do? That's

332
00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:31,720
Speaker 1: a great question. It's it's the question I get almost

333
00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:35,399
Speaker 1: every day. Good morning, UM. Well, we're saying what we

334
00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:37,840
Speaker 1: found out over time is, you know, when the FED

335
00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:40,679
Speaker 1: is in this kind of environment, is we like to

336
00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:43,679
Speaker 1: do somewhat of a multi primed approach. One is we

337
00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:47,120
Speaker 1: like cash flow in our our portfolios. As we've been

338
00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:51,520
Speaker 1: telling clients to to maintain cash flow, advertising products such

339
00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,600
Speaker 1: as mortgage backs to bring in UM cash that you

340
00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,119
Speaker 1: can reinvest at the higher rates as the FED moves higher.

341
00:19:57,480 --> 00:19:59,760
Speaker 1: We do like floaters at this point. We normally aren't

342
00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:02,000
Speaker 1: big fans of floaters until the FED begins to move

343
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,080
Speaker 1: because that's when you actually capture most of the move

344
00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,680
Speaker 1: from there from from the rising rates. UM, and then

345
00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:10,760
Speaker 1: as far as the rest of the portfolio. Were we

346
00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:14,639
Speaker 1: Barbell uh classic Barbell in a in a curve movement

347
00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,040
Speaker 1: environment like it is, a flattening environment like it is.

348
00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:21,960
Speaker 1: We like m more negatively convexed products like uh, you know,

349
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:26,000
Speaker 1: option embedded products like callables and mortgages that I mentioned earlier,

350
00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:28,159
Speaker 1: and then we like more of our positive convexity on

351
00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:30,240
Speaker 1: the back end of the curve where we can kind

352
00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:32,600
Speaker 1: of control that risk factor a little bit. I haven't

353
00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:37,440
Speaker 1: heard convexity terms since my finance class and a duke,

354
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:41,040
Speaker 1: do you not watch surveillance? Yeah, but it's up there

355
00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:45,880
Speaker 1: with sitgeist among the most mentioned words on surveillance. He's

356
00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:47,800
Speaker 1: got his own you know, he's got his own language.

357
00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:51,760
Speaker 1: Convexity is a Faraoh thing and zeitgeist is tom Okay,

358
00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:54,320
Speaker 1: I wonder what I wonder? What I wonder? At least

359
00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:56,520
Speaker 1: it says just all things credit. So I don't know.

360
00:20:56,600 --> 00:21:00,680
Speaker 1: So So in the corporate market do I go hire?

361
00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:05,000
Speaker 1: You do I stay investment grade? What do I do? Um?

362
00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:07,000
Speaker 1: Right now? I think you're you're better off on the

363
00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:10,320
Speaker 1: corporate market in the in the investment grade, I think

364
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,840
Speaker 1: the risk is just um. You know, the FED normally

365
00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:16,520
Speaker 1: doesn't end in a soft landing. We've only had one

366
00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,800
Speaker 1: to my account, and so you know, I think the

367
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:23,919
Speaker 1: spreads of all widen across the curve. But you know,

368
00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:25,919
Speaker 1: as far as an up in quality trade, I think

369
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:28,920
Speaker 1: still remains the right move at this point is there

370
00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:32,840
Speaker 1: ever a time when someone who works in fixed income says, man,

371
00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:34,639
Speaker 1: now is not not not a good time to be

372
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:42,080
Speaker 1: in fixed income. Yes, I have done that before. I mean,

373
00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:43,560
Speaker 1: it's it is. It is one thing you have to

374
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:47,000
Speaker 1: be careful with. Obviously, in a balanced portfolio, UM, you

375
00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:50,439
Speaker 1: want to be you know, probably underweight uh interest rate

376
00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:52,240
Speaker 1: products at this point. But you know, we have a

377
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:56,320
Speaker 1: lot of clients who are depositories of money managers fixed

378
00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,320
Speaker 1: income products, and it's like that they must maintain investments,

379
00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:03,000
Speaker 1: and so we try to adjust their waitings accordingly in

380
00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:06,360
Speaker 1: order to best fit that environment. So are your corporate

381
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,159
Speaker 1: clients ellis Um, do they feel like the parties over

382
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,880
Speaker 1: in terms of new issuance that the windows closing if

383
00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:16,920
Speaker 1: not closed? Or what are you hearing from your corporate clients? Uh? No,

384
00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,119
Speaker 1: I think I think the the product is still very

385
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:22,960
Speaker 1: violable at this point. I think we're still getting, um,

386
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:26,160
Speaker 1: you know, some some good flow. I mean, it's obviously

387
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:28,320
Speaker 1: things have changed with the with the flattening, but you know,

388
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:30,240
Speaker 1: when when you're looking at corporate credit, a lot of

389
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:34,520
Speaker 1: it gets swapped out once it's initiated. Um, that will

390
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,119
Speaker 1: tighten up as the fed titans. But I think there's

391
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,359
Speaker 1: there's still an open window at this point. I think

392
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:40,960
Speaker 1: we've got a little bit of time before we get

393
00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:43,000
Speaker 1: to that close that you know what as it closes,

394
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:45,040
Speaker 1: was that it for the inversion? Do you feel like

395
00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:49,240
Speaker 1: that was one and done? I do for now, um

396
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:51,160
Speaker 1: And And part of that is if you look at

397
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,600
Speaker 1: the you know, two S tense curve, which I've always

398
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:56,879
Speaker 1: used as is a very good measurement. I mean, all recessions,

399
00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,119
Speaker 1: as we know, have been led by an inversion, but

400
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:01,960
Speaker 1: not all the versions was a recession. And in the

401
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,720
Speaker 1: three tends, the three month to tenure, not the three

402
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,000
Speaker 1: to tends, but the three month tenure is very wide

403
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:09,760
Speaker 1: still at a hundred ninety basis points um And, I

404
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:11,879
Speaker 1: don't think we're going to get that kind of indication

405
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,560
Speaker 1: of a recession until those two curves come more into alignment.

406
00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:19,080
Speaker 1: And I think I understand quantitative easing, but now I'm

407
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,680
Speaker 1: being told by credit folks like you that there gonna

408
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:26,080
Speaker 1: be quantitative tightening. What does that look like? How does

409
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:30,040
Speaker 1: that actually get affected in the market. Well, the FED

410
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:33,240
Speaker 1: will uh in their portfolio, there's a certain amount of

411
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:37,200
Speaker 1: runoff with maturities and mortgage run off from their holdings,

412
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:40,359
Speaker 1: and so they're gonna allow that to to actually begin.

413
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,800
Speaker 1: In the past, every bit of runoff has been met

414
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:46,960
Speaker 1: or exceeded by their purchases. And when they when they

415
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,640
Speaker 1: stopped making new purchases, that's where they kind of left it. Uh,

416
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:52,520
Speaker 1: they kind of made it even at that point. So

417
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,160
Speaker 1: now they're gonna let that run off to a certain limit,

418
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,480
Speaker 1: and so they'll they'll build that up over time. I

419
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:02,080
Speaker 1: expect that to come in May at their next meeting, uh,

420
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 1: and they'll wramp that up to about nine billion per month,

421
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 1: which is an effect you know, it brings about a

422
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 1: double barrel tightening uh in the market. I means you've

423
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,160
Speaker 1: got you've got them raising rates as well as taking

424
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 1: liquidity out of the market by allowing this runoff, and

425
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:21,080
Speaker 1: so they're not putting that liquidity back into the system. Alright. So, uh,

426
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:23,159
Speaker 1: how far down do you think we can get? And

427
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 1: what's the terminal rate? It's got about thirty seconds here,

428
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 1: um as far down? Uh, you know, the truth be told,

429
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:31,159
Speaker 1: that's going to be a difficult one for them at

430
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 1: this point. They're they're pretty much in a very difficult

431
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,399
Speaker 1: bind as far as terminal rate. You know, if you

432
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,200
Speaker 1: think about the FED. If they are right and hitting

433
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 1: there to seventy medium projection in the dot plot, the

434
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 1: terminal rate on tens is probably north of that in

435
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 1: the you know, three and a quarter to three fifty range.

436
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:49,960
Speaker 1: I think that's a that's a real possibility on tens,

437
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 1: but that should occur before the FED or at the

438
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:57,120
Speaker 1: time the FED begins to stop tightening. All right, now,

439
00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 1: that's good stuff. We will appreciate getting some of your

440
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 1: able time. Ellis Pfeiffer, Managing Director, Fixed Income Counpital Markets

441
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:09,399
Speaker 1: for Raymond James again sees that fifty basis point hike

442
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 1: in interest rates coming up at the next meeting in

443
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,119
Speaker 1: May UH and then the runoff likely to occur begin

444
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:21,720
Speaker 1: as well. Then thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Markets podcast.

445
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 1: You can subscribe and listen to interviews with Apple Podcasts

446
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:29,360
Speaker 1: or whatever podcast platform you prefer. I'm Matt Miller. I'm

447
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 1: on Twitter at Matt Miller. Put on fall Sweeney I'm

448
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,199
Speaker 1: on Twitter at pt Sweeney. Before the podcast, you can

449
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 1: always catch us worldwide at Bloomberg Radio