Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. The Prime Minister of
Speaker 1: Israel is in the United States, Benjamin Netanyah, who arrived
Speaker 1: in Washington this week. The purpose of his trip to
Speaker 1: address a joint meeting of Congress, and that happened on
Speaker 1: Wednesday on.
Speaker 2: Behalf of the people of Israel I came here today
Speaker 2: to say thank you America, thank you for your support
Speaker 2: and solidarity, thank you for standing in Israel with Israel
Speaker 2: in our hour of need.
Speaker 1: But a lot has happened since early June, when US
Speaker 1: lawmakers announced this week's speech. There was an attempt on
Speaker 1: former President Trump's life. President Biden got COVID, and after
Speaker 1: weeks of pressure, he ended his bid for reelection and
Speaker 1: endorsed Vice President Harris. All that complicated Netanyaho's itinerary. By midweek,
Speaker 1: he had three critical meetings on his calendar, one with Trump,
Speaker 1: another with Biden, and a third sit down with Harris.
Speaker 3: It's really an extraordinary moment. I mean, you almost couldn't
Speaker 3: make it up, or if you put it into a
Speaker 3: movie script, it would be seen as almost unbelievable.
Speaker 1: Nick Wadhams oversees Bloomberg's national security coverage from Washington.
Speaker 3: Do you have a suddenly anointed presidential candidate who has
Speaker 3: very little foreign policy experience from her time prior to
Speaker 3: being vice president, and now the first foreign leader she's
Speaker 3: going to be meeting is Prime Minister Benjamin NETANYAHUO. And
Speaker 3: this is not an alliance like you know, a meeting
Speaker 3: with the NATO Secretary General or President of France. This
Speaker 3: is a very very tricky situation.
Speaker 1: Today on the show, a visit from Prime Minister net
Speaker 1: and Yahoo falls in the middle of an unprecedented moment
Speaker 1: in American political history, with implications for Israel's war with
Speaker 1: Hamas and for US foreign policy. As President Biden passes
Speaker 1: the baton to his vice president. This is the Big
Speaker 1: Take DC podcast from Bloomberg News. I'm David Gera. It
Speaker 1: was the Speaker of the House, Mike Johnson, who led
Speaker 1: a campaign to invite Israel's Prime minister to Washington to
Speaker 1: address both houses of Congress. There was backlash from some Democrats,
Speaker 1: but in the end that invitation received bipartisan support. Once
Speaker 1: the visit was set, it was more or less assumed
Speaker 1: Netanyaho would seek meetings with both President Biden and former
Speaker 1: President Trump. I sat down with Nick Wadhams and Ethan Bronner,
Speaker 1: who is Bloomberg's Israel bureau chief. And Ethan told me
Speaker 1: Netanyaho had two goals going into this visit.
Speaker 4: The first is to be seen at home as a statesman,
Speaker 4: as someone who is invited by both Republicans and Democrats. Then,
Speaker 4: of course, there is no greater more important ally for
Speaker 4: Israel than the United States. And Israel feels besieged on
Speaker 4: many fronts right now, from the north, from the south,
Speaker 4: from the east, from very far south, and all of
Speaker 4: which is paid for and trained by Iran. Israel would
Speaker 4: like to urge the American government and people to embrace
Speaker 4: the campaign against Iran as a fight against terrorism and
Speaker 4: a fight against forces that wish ill on the West
Speaker 4: and on the US. And therefore it's time to get
Speaker 4: behind Israel.
Speaker 1: Ethan, it's been more than nine months since October seventh.
Speaker 1: Can you just describe the pressure that Prime Minister is
Speaker 1: under back home.
Speaker 4: The main pressure that the Prime Minister's under back home
Speaker 4: has to do with the remaining hostages in Gaza, some
Speaker 4: one hundred and twenty, probably fifty of them alive, and
Speaker 4: the growing sense that the people who are there are
Speaker 4: going to die of very sad death if Israel doesn't
Speaker 4: do everything it can to bring them home. For many months,
Speaker 4: there was a sense that fighting against Hamas and bringing
Speaker 4: the hostages home were two legitimate and equally important goals.
Speaker 4: But polls show that when people are asked about what's
Speaker 4: really important to them, bringing in the hostel home comes
Speaker 4: out first. So that's the broad public pressure. Then within
Speaker 4: his coalition, he has a very right wing religious coalition.
Speaker 4: Those to his far right do not want him to
Speaker 4: make a deal, do not want anything to be granted
Speaker 4: to Hamas in a return deal or freeing of Palestinian prisoners.
Speaker 4: So he's trying to thread the needle of accepting the
Speaker 4: importance of bringing hostages home without threatening his own coalition.
Speaker 1: On top of that, Netanyahu is under increasing international pressure
Speaker 1: to protect Palestinian civilians and address the humanitarian crisis on
Speaker 1: the ground in Gaza. So all that complexity was there,
Speaker 1: but the prospect of NETANYAHUO meeting with both Biden and
Speaker 1: Trump made the visit even thornier. Can you describe just
Speaker 1: how complicated the dynamics of this visit are. He was
Speaker 1: invited by Congress, It was not an invitation from President Biden.
Speaker 3: It's very complicated for the president. I mean, this is
Speaker 3: a president who, deep in his bones, believes that the
Speaker 3: US should be a steadfast and unwavering ally of Israel.
Speaker 3: After the October seventh attack, he went to Israel and
Speaker 3: gave Prime Minister Netanyaho a literal bear hug to underscore
Speaker 3: just how closely he believes that alliance should remain. But
Speaker 3: at the same time, Biden has been repeatedly undermined by
Speaker 3: the Israeli government in his effort to get this ceasefire,
Speaker 3: to get it done, he came out at one point
Speaker 3: and said, we have a deal that is essentially on
Speaker 3: the table, and framed it as something that had the
Speaker 3: support of Israel and just it was a matter of details.
Speaker 3: The Prime Minister made clear he did not see eye
Speaker 3: to eye with Biden, and there's been a lot of
Speaker 3: frustration within the administration they don't see the Israeli government
Speaker 3: and Prime Minister Netanyah, who as the reliable partner that
Speaker 3: President Biden wants him to be.
Speaker 1: Ethan, what explains the undermining that Nick's describing, Why the
Speaker 1: deterioration of that relationship between these two leaders.
Speaker 4: You know, they've always gotten along personally, Biden to tanyagn
Speaker 4: and each other for four decades, but they've actually never
Speaker 4: particularly agreed on policy. I mean, Biden is far more
Speaker 4: liberal than Ntonia, who briefly embraced the idea of a
Speaker 4: Palestinian state between maybe two thousand and nine and twenty
Speaker 4: and eleven, but he never really bought into it, and
Speaker 4: he's now a firm opponent of it. From Biden's perspective,
Speaker 4: there is no way Israel can be at peace and
Speaker 4: secure without a Palestinian state. So there's a very big
Speaker 4: difference right there. You also have this dichotomy between how
Speaker 4: most Israelis see what happened on October seventh and subsequently
Speaker 4: and how much or most of the world does so.
Speaker 4: For Israel, there was a sense that they had built
Speaker 4: this state in order to be secure in their own
Speaker 4: Jewish state, and now people on their border were coming
Speaker 4: over and slaughtering them, and they came to the conclusion
Speaker 4: that those around them really want them dead, and they
Speaker 4: continue to feel that every day. It's October seventh, pretty
Speaker 4: much every day in Israel and the rest of the world.
Speaker 4: See nearly forty thousand Palestinians killed in the Gaza strip
Speaker 4: and says it's really time to stop this. There's a
Speaker 4: lot of suffering going on there. And while President Biden
Speaker 4: did embrace Israel and come to its aid, as Nick
Speaker 4: said very powerfully the beginning of the war, he has
Speaker 4: waned on that, partly, I think from his own beliefs,
Speaker 4: but also partly there are political problems in the United States.
Speaker 4: He's got young Democrats and Arab Americans and Muslim Americans
Speaker 4: who are horrified by what's been happening in Gaza, and
Speaker 4: that's causing a serious electoral challenge to the Democratic Party.
Speaker 1: How about the relationship between Netanyahu and former President Trump?
Speaker 1: What do we know of the dynamics of that relationship.
Speaker 4: When Trump was president, there was a lot of contact
Speaker 4: and it was widely felt that President Trump took his
Speaker 4: cues about the region trump Prime Minister Natanyahu. It's also
Speaker 4: true you know that President Trump's son in law, Jared Kushner,
Speaker 4: is very active Zionist, close to the right in Israel
Speaker 4: as well. And then, of course, while Trump is president,
Speaker 4: he did several things that made Israeli is certainly conservative.
Speaker 4: Israeli is very happy. He recognized Jerusalem as its capital,
Speaker 4: He recognized the annexation of the goal on heights from
Speaker 4: Syria by Israel, and he declared that settlements in the
Speaker 4: West Bank Jewish settlements are not illegal from an American perspective.
Speaker 4: So in many ways, Trump was a great hero there.
Speaker 4: But then what happened is that when Joe Biden won
Speaker 4: the election in twenty twenty, and of course Trump denied
Speaker 4: the legitimacy of this victory. So it was difficult for
Speaker 4: Natania who he waited a little bit before acknowledging and
Speaker 4: congratulating President Biden his victory, and that really angered President Trump.
Speaker 4: We all know that Trump is a guy who quickly
Speaker 4: makes enemies and then can agree to overlook what's happened.
Speaker 4: I mean, look at his relationship with JD. Vans. So
Speaker 4: the assumption is that they're now going to meet and
Speaker 4: that all will be more or less forgiven.
Speaker 1: So those were the dynamic going into this week initially,
Speaker 1: but then last Sunday, President Biden ended his run for
Speaker 1: a second term. He endorsed Vice President Harris, and all
Speaker 1: of a sudden she was in the spotlight in a
Speaker 1: way she hadn't been, and Netanyahoo added a meeting with
Speaker 1: Harris to his itinerary. Now the Vice President's positions on
Speaker 1: Israel are under fresh scrutiny, But what are those positions exactly?
Speaker 1: That's after the break, you know, when the Prime Minister
Speaker 1: sits down with Vice President Harris, presumptive nominee for the
Speaker 1: Democratic Party for president. The substance, of course, is important,
Speaker 1: but so is the presentation the whole thing. Talk about
Speaker 1: the importance of this meeting from a purely political standpoint.
Speaker 3: She has been Vice president for almost four years now,
Speaker 3: but she was more a foot soldier in the foreign
Speaker 3: policy that was set by the president. And now the
Speaker 3: first foreign leader she's going to be meeting as she
Speaker 3: introduces her herself to the United States as the Democrats
Speaker 3: candidate for the presidency is Prime Minister Benjamin Netta, who
Speaker 3: I mean already Secretary of State Anthony Blinkin held this
Speaker 3: frankly somewhat bizarre press gaggle where he vouched for her
Speaker 3: foreign policy bona fide said he had no doubt about
Speaker 3: her ability to do the job.
Speaker 5: I've seen her command of the room full of world leaders.
Speaker 3: It's almost like, well, if he didn't feel the need
Speaker 3: to try to convince people of that, he wouldn't have
Speaker 3: said it. It was just sort of a strange moment
Speaker 3: that suggests they're really trying to build her up in
Speaker 3: a place that they know is an obvious weakness. If
Speaker 3: this were a poker game, I guess that would have
Speaker 3: been a pretty big tell.
Speaker 2: Ethan.
Speaker 1: I was able to find a photograph of then Senator
Speaker 1: Kamala Harris standing next to Prime Minister NETANYAHUO I think
Speaker 1: back in twenty seventeen, any insight you can give us
Speaker 1: into what kind of relationship if any of these two
Speaker 1: leaders have.
Speaker 4: I'm unaware are there any deeper lizes, but they've met
Speaker 4: on a half a dozen occasions. I mean, I do
Speaker 4: believe that the president was on the line for the
Speaker 4: twenty or so conversations that President Biden has had with
Speaker 4: Natanyahu over these months.
Speaker 5: Of the war.
Speaker 4: I think that Kamala Harris has a deep belief in
Speaker 4: the legitimacy of Israel. There is no disagreement about that.
Speaker 4: But she's more worried about the Palestinians who are undergoing
Speaker 4: bombing and difficult conditions, including hunger, than it's sort of
Speaker 4: this geostrategic question, or at least that's where she has
Speaker 4: placed her attention. I think the question is if she
Speaker 4: were to be elected and she then faced the bigger
Speaker 4: strategic question of what do you do about Iran? And
Speaker 4: whether she would agree that Iran is the big problem
Speaker 4: that Israel says, than what to do about that.
Speaker 1: This is something she addressed in broad strokes during a
Speaker 1: major foreign policy speech she delivered in February at the
Speaker 1: Munich Security Conference.
Speaker 5: Israel then had a right to defend itself. Would we
Speaker 5: would and and how it does so matters. We have
Speaker 5: also been clear that far too many innocent Palestineans have
Speaker 5: been killed, that Israel must do better ethan.
Speaker 1: How are you watching this play out? Prime Minister Netio
Speaker 1: having to really balance two outcomes. Of course, Vice President
Speaker 1: Harris should she be the nominee, she could be the
Speaker 1: next president. Former President Trump could go to the White
Speaker 1: House once again. How is he navigating those two potential outcomes?
Speaker 4: Historically, I mean, at least for many decades, there has
Speaker 4: been a bipartisan, relatively bipartisan consensus about Israel that it
Speaker 4: was an important ally. Now, as Israel moved to the
Speaker 4: right and the American electorate has moved to the left,
Speaker 4: that has been strained, particularly in the Democratic Party. But
Speaker 4: I think that we see what's the Biden administration, how
Speaker 4: it's basically embraced Israel's desire to defend itself and to
Speaker 4: destroy Hamas with caveats of course and disagreements.
Speaker 1: In Congress on Wednesday, Netanyahu spoke for nearly an hour,
Speaker 1: condemning protesters and urging America to side with Israel in
Speaker 1: its fight against Iran.
Speaker 2: America and Israel today can forge a security alliance in
Speaker 2: the Middle East to counter the growing Iranian threat.
Speaker 4: We are your agent in this region. We may have
Speaker 4: minor disagreements about things Palestinian state, this and that, but
Speaker 4: let us look at the big picture. We have a
Speaker 4: lot in common and a long history of shared values.
Speaker 1: As for President Biden, when he addressed the nation on
Speaker 1: Wednesday night about his decision to drop out of the race,
Speaker 1: he said he wants to make the most of his
Speaker 1: remaining time in office, and I'm.
Speaker 3: Going to keep working in the war in Gaza, bring
Speaker 3: home all the hostages, and bring peace and security to
Speaker 3: the Middle East.
Speaker 2: And end this war.
Speaker 3: The question is what his lame duck status means for
Speaker 3: Israel and its willingness to commit to a deal. Would
Speaker 3: they gamble on the idea of waiting for President Trump,
Speaker 3: knowing that Donald Trump is much more sympathetic to Israel.
Speaker 3: JD Vance said that Israel should be allowed to essentially
Speaker 3: finish the job. So there may be some benefit to waiting,
Speaker 3: but there may also be some disadvantage if Kamala Harris
Speaker 3: wins the presidency. So there's a calculation there that Israel
Speaker 3: will have to make, and there's also a calculation that
Speaker 3: the US will have to make. We are getting some
Speaker 3: hints right now from the administration that President Biden, like
Speaker 3: presidents before him, has the desire to take a big
Speaker 3: swing at one of the most intractable foreign policy problems
Speaker 3: in the world with the remaining time he has left
Speaker 3: to cement his legacy and do something that he believes
Speaker 3: would make a profound impact and that has bring peace
Speaker 3: or a ceasefire at least between Israel and Hamas. A
Speaker 3: ceasefire is something very much that the administration wants to achieve,
Speaker 3: not only because they believe in it on the merits,
Speaker 3: but because as college gets back underway in the fall,
Speaker 3: if you see a return of those protests on college
Speaker 3: campuses propelsy protesters, there are folks in the administration who
Speaker 3: believe that puts Kamala Harris in serious political jeopardy. You
Speaker 3: can bet that whatever happens, the administration will seek to
Speaker 3: show that Kamala Harris is in the thick of this thing.
Speaker 3: So one of the goals that President Biden will have
Speaker 3: will be to use some sort of deal, whatever deal
Speaker 3: they can get, as something that they can show the
Speaker 3: Biden Harris administration achieved, and that will be something that
Speaker 3: would argue for voters to turn out in her favor
Speaker 3: in November.
Speaker 4: And I think for President Biden, who considers himself really
Speaker 4: a foreign policy expert his whole life, if he can
Speaker 4: actually drive a deal and there is movement toward a
Speaker 4: normalization agreement between Israel and the Saudis, I think that
Speaker 4: would be for him one of the most important ways
Speaker 4: to end his career.
Speaker 1: Ethan and Nick, thank you very much, Thank you, Thanks
Speaker 1: thanks for listening to the Big Take DC podcast from
Speaker 1: Bloomberg News. I'm David Gura. This episode was produced by
Speaker 1: Julia Press. It was mixed by Blake Maples. It was
Speaker 1: fact checked by Thomas lew and RFT Jalasho Perry. It
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