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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight at iHeartRadio. We're talking true

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Speaker 2: crime all the time. It's Thursday, February twelfth, and man,

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Speaker 2: we have a stacked night of headlines to get to.

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Speaker 2: I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with Courtney Armstrong and body move in.

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Speaker 3: We have a stacked house, a stacked night. Listen.

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Speaker 2: We are still looking for our beloved Nancy Guthrie. I

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Speaker 2: say that collectively she has officially become our mother and

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Speaker 2: grandmother and we want her home. Still some new leads though,

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Speaker 2: so we'll be unpacking that. Plus we're getting into the

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Speaker 2: Epstein files. This one continues to grow. But we're again

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Speaker 2: taking this in some small things that we know, things

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Speaker 2: that we just want to unpack, and then we'll put

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Speaker 2: it away and again not get too carried away, because

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Speaker 2: I think we're all getting a little disregulated. We have

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Speaker 2: a great guest, two of them in fact, today, Joseph Freed.

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Speaker 2: I know Courtney and I we worked with Joseph and

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Speaker 2: his partner Alison Berkeley at Marwar Junction.

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Speaker 3: They're extraordinary producers.

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Speaker 2: Who's also the executive producer of a documentary coming out

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Speaker 2: on Oxygen called love Ted Bundy, and he's here with

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Speaker 2: Edna Cowell, who was ed Bundy's cousin, so lots to

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Speaker 2: discuss there. They also made the documentary The Perfect Wife

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Speaker 2: about Cherry Peppini, Remember that one we talked about that

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Speaker 2: exite a bit that she's the wife that kind of

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Speaker 2: framed her own disappearance.

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Speaker 3: Allegedly, allegedly allegedly.

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Speaker 2: So anyways, so much to get to. We're looking forward

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Speaker 2: to having them on. If you want to join us

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Speaker 2: eight eight eight three one crime, please do so if

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Speaker 2: you want to come on live or leave us a

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Speaker 2: talk back and keep the sweatshirt swell, heaven boom.

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Speaker 3: Where should we begin?

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Speaker 4: Nancy, I mean, that's all anybody can talk about right now, right,

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Speaker 4: and Nancy goodness, I mean, I feel sick about it.

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Speaker 2: So let's start with the updates and things. That's you know,

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Speaker 2: new information since last night.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 4: So, today's a twelfth day, twelve days, and it feels

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Speaker 4: like longer, but also feels like yesterday. Is that like

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Speaker 4: I don't know what the under perceiling is. But it's

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Speaker 4: Today's the twelfth day in the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie.

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Speaker 4: She's eighty four years old and she is the mother

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Speaker 4: of Today's Show host and co anchor Savannah Guthrie. She

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Speaker 4: disappeared from her Tucson home early in the morning hours

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Speaker 4: of February First, the investigators believe she was taken against

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Speaker 4: her will after finding all that blood on her porch

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Speaker 4: and signs that her doorbell camera was tampered with. And

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Speaker 4: then of course they released the video this really scary,

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Speaker 4: really video of a man wearing a backpack full of

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Speaker 4: something and a bottaklava, a scary bottle clava on and

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Speaker 4: he could really only see his eyes and he had

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Speaker 4: like a byte light in his You know, I was

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Speaker 4: thinking about this byte light. Who uses a byte light?

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Speaker 4: What professions use a byte lights? Mechanics, auto mechanics use

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Speaker 4: a byte light. People who work in in small areas

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Speaker 4: that are that's dark where they need like both hands, right,

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Speaker 4: like h VAC user.

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Speaker 3: You know, people that fix.

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Speaker 4: Air conditioners and auto mechanics use the fisherman.

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Speaker 3: Caves. Splunkers.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, anyway, splunkers, is that a thing splunkers, yeah, splunking

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Speaker 4: people in case yeah. Oh yeah, that's right, people in capes. Okay, anyway,

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Speaker 4: I digress. So today the FBI, here's today's updates. All right,

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Speaker 4: The FBI has raised its reward to one hundred thousand

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Speaker 4: dollars because it was fifty Now it's one hundred thousand

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Speaker 4: dollar for information that leads to locating Nancy Guthrie or

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Speaker 4: an arrest in connection with her disappearance. The authorities have

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Speaker 4: also they I woke up this morning and of course

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Speaker 4: I have to go see what's going on. I go

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Speaker 4: right to YouTube and there's like this tent erected in

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Speaker 4: the doorway where the you know, her porches, and I'm like,

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Speaker 4: what are they doing? Well, apparently what they were likely doing,

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Speaker 4: and this is just me hypothesizing, is they were looking

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Speaker 4: at the tiles because looking at the tiles they can

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Speaker 4: get like a shoe size, right, and they're they're measuring.

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Speaker 4: Likely Now this is all behind the tent you can't see.

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Speaker 2: I'm guessing well and also crazy making too that they

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Speaker 2: have to put this tent up because again back to

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Speaker 2: original points made earlier in the week, that this was

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Speaker 2: not a very secured it, which is you know, troublesome.

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Speaker 2: And here's why, right, because now suddenly we're we're trying

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Speaker 2: to preserve something that's already been hanbilaments for eleven to

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Speaker 2: twelve days. One thing to that I also had seen.

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Speaker 2: They had a measuring stick to sort of see based

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Speaker 2: on the tiles and perhaps based art footage, and they

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Speaker 2: arn'tway with the actual height of this perpetrator. Would be

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Speaker 2: why they're saying about five nine.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, they're they're saying he's about five nine to five

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Speaker 4: ten tall, which you know, with an average build. The guys,

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Speaker 4: like every guy in America basically.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I was gonna says so specific.

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Speaker 4: You know, it's it's unfortunately he's not you know, five

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Speaker 4: three or you know, six six five, you know something.

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Speaker 3: You know that pretty basic, Pretty basic, right.

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Speaker 4: So investigators found multiple gloves while examining the scene, although

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Speaker 4: it remains, you know, unclear to us right now if

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Speaker 4: they were used by the person seen in the doorbell

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Speaker 4: footage that you know, the FBI released.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so this seems unbelievable to me that there would

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Speaker 2: be a glove laying in the land so close to

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Speaker 2: where this I'm seen was, which we saw, you know,

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Speaker 2: law enforcement just going so carefully and meticulously through what

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Speaker 2: seems like this open area to find a glove so

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Speaker 2: late in the game also is wild to me.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, this whole investigation is wild to me that this

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Speaker 6: stuff is. You know, to your point, multiple gloves found today, It's.

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Speaker 2: Just like, are they appearing somewhere if somebody depositing them

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Speaker 2: in the dead of night.

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Speaker 3: A lot of.

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Speaker 4: People think that they're you know, planted or but you know,

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Speaker 4: that's scuttle butt. That's not facts, right, that's scuttle butt.

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Speaker 3: That's there again.

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Speaker 2: Plying them up to the person who put on a

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Speaker 2: fake ransom I would like to do try at least today,

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Speaker 2: by the way, I know, I would like to have

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Speaker 2: him look all of us in the eye and have

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Speaker 2: to stand up and you know, explain himself.

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Speaker 3: That was not very kind. And whoever's doing.

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Speaker 2: This, if somebody's running around planting rubber gloves to again

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Speaker 2: clog law enforcement's time, that would be upsetting.

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Speaker 4: I can't imagine somebody would do. Oh well, people do

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Speaker 4: do that. To that point, teams got another ransom note today.

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Speaker 4: I don't know if you guys heard about this, but

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Speaker 4: they got another ransom note, and Harvey is saying that

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Speaker 4: the tone of the note is a lot more menacing.

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Speaker 4: Then of course he's not, you know, letting us know

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Speaker 4: what it says, but he's saying that it's Now, this

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Speaker 4: is the note that said give me one bitcoin and

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Speaker 4: I'll tell you who the kidnapper is.

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Speaker 3: Right that they got yesterday, Well.

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Speaker 4: They got another note today and it was apparently the

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Speaker 4: tone was pretty menacing.

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Speaker 2: And again this is the person who knows the person

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Speaker 2: allegedly so alleged asked right for you know, about sixty

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Speaker 2: seven thousand to seventy thousand dollars is the cash amount

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Speaker 2: roughly of this said bitcoin. This person is saying, look,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to have to go low, and we're we're

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Speaker 2: assessing this. This is Harvey Levin's assessment that he's going

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Speaker 2: to have to go below the radar and maybe, you know,

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Speaker 2: if he has a job, he's going to have to

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Speaker 2: quit it for a little bit and lay low. So

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Speaker 2: he's going to need this bitcoin to survive. And this

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Speaker 2: is not unreasonable. So yeah, what do you make of that?

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Speaker 3: I don't I don't think.

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Speaker 4: I don't think any of the ransoms are legitimate so far,

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Speaker 4: I really don't. No, No, I don't I mean for

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Speaker 4: a while, I was like kind of like, oh, maybe

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Speaker 4: they are, maybe they're not.

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Speaker 3: But I don't know. I just don't. I don't think

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Speaker 3: they're ugitimate.

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Speaker 4: I think that if they were legitimate, I think that

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Speaker 4: they wouldn't be going through TMZ. I think they would

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Speaker 4: be contacting the family directly. I don't think they would

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Speaker 4: be contact maybe. I mean, listen, what about the Zodiac killer?

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Speaker 4: What about you know, they wanted the Zodiac wanted a

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Speaker 4: message to the public for everyone to do something specific.

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Speaker 4: But you know what, listen, maybe just there could be

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Speaker 4: a first time for everything.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 4: That doesn't mean it's it doesn't mean I'm right.

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Speaker 3: It just it's interesting unusual though.

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Speaker 2: So these are the big clues, right why TMZ specifically?

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Speaker 2: Obviously there's also been local affiliates as well, locally the

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Speaker 2: Tucson area period. You know, suddenly we're seeing this new,

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Speaker 2: you know, footage for the first time, this layered in

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Speaker 2: footage that was somehow residual that we were able to

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Speaker 2: retrieve from nest seems like for the first time. How exciting?

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Speaker 2: What does that mean? It's been you know, twelve days.

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Speaker 2: We know she only really had twenty four hours without

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Speaker 2: her medicine. So does that point to something sophisticated or

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Speaker 2: not so sophisticated. You know, every time we think we

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Speaker 2: have an answer in one category, oh, this must be

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Speaker 2: you know, somebody that's out for revenge or.

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Speaker 3: They want the money.

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Speaker 2: Again, it's just very sloppy if money is the goal

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Speaker 2: according to the experts, and.

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Speaker 4: We have to keep in mind they're so wild. I

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Speaker 4: think we have to keep in mind because it does

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Speaker 4: seem crazy making, and it does seem like nothing makes

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Speaker 4: sense but I and whenever I get to that point

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Speaker 4: where it's like none of this is adding up and

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Speaker 4: every theory collapses on itself, we have to remember we're

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Speaker 4: only being told a fraction of what you know, law

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Speaker 4: enforcement knows or whatnot, you know, what they think that

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Speaker 4: they want us to know, right, so what law enforcement

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Speaker 4: beliefs is relevant that won't jeopardize the investigation, et cetera.

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Speaker 4: So we're only being told a little tiny bit and

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Speaker 4: that the things that aren't making sense might be filled

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Speaker 4: in by those details.

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Speaker 7: Right.

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Speaker 6: I think it's bananas that today, day twelve of this investigation,

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Speaker 6: that neighbors were asked to give over their doorbell camera

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Speaker 6: footage for you know, cars, or people, and this was

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Speaker 6: from four weeks before she went missing.

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Speaker 3: Nancy Gothrie went missing. Why is it day twelve.

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Speaker 4: That there is Well, it might be throughout the investigation

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Speaker 4: that they're maybe learning just now, maybe yesterday or today,

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Speaker 4: maybe their theory has evolved to say this that maybe

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Speaker 4: Nancy was being stalked, maybe you know, staked out.

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Speaker 2: Let's say for certain, somebody had to know the coming

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Speaker 2: in goings. And you know one thing too, by the way,

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Speaker 2: if you're just joining us, you're listening to a true

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Speaker 2: crime tonight on iHeartRadio, and we're talking about Guthrie, Savannah

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Speaker 2: Guthrie's allegedly abducted mother, day twelve and how this could

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Speaker 2: possibly be something that else is being brought up pretty

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Speaker 2: regularly is sort of jurisdiction issues, whether it's being with

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Speaker 2: the Sheriff's department who's covering the case locally in Tucson,

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Speaker 2: and the FBI obviously the federal agency being brought in

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Speaker 2: to look at this higher case because.

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Speaker 3: It's an introduction.

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Speaker 2: This reminds me so much of things that Native Americans

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Speaker 2: are facing on reservations and things that we've covered ourselves

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Speaker 2: too in our hope to find missing and murdered Indigenous

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Speaker 2: girls and boys.

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Speaker 3: But that's a.

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Speaker 2: Big issue is jurisdiction. And it sounded like just from

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Speaker 2: some of Brian Anton's reporting to for News Nation, is

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Speaker 2: that there's a real clog right now on who's doing what.

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Speaker 2: So guess what when you don't know who's really in charge?

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Speaker 2: Very simple tasks like hey, who got the ring camera

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Speaker 2: foot edge right? From all of the sabers, Sometimes the

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Speaker 2: most basic things slip through the cracks. We've all been

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Speaker 2: there in certain versions of that in our lives. So

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Speaker 2: some of the things that we cover in a lot

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Speaker 2: of the cases that we work on, specifically with abductions

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Speaker 2: or missing persons cases.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I mean, who else you know?

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Speaker 8: We want?

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Speaker 3: We want justice so much.

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Speaker 2: Maybe we can now be looking at some of this

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Speaker 2: stuff real time and the hiccups that come with it

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Speaker 2: and applying this to cases.

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Speaker 3: After Nancy's safe.

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Speaker 2: Return home, I'm going to remain hopeful that she's coming home.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's all we can do.

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Speaker 4: And I'm really glad you brought that up because the

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Speaker 4: jurisdictional issues are something that is making a lot of rumblings.

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Speaker 4: I understood today that some people that were searching and

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Speaker 4: I think it was the sheriff's office. They weren't sure

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Speaker 4: who to report to something something a long while, and

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Speaker 4: that's what happens.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, who do you report to?

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Speaker 2: And again, some of this stuff is real time experience

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Speaker 2: based on having real time experience, Right, you have to

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Speaker 2: kind of be in the fire to understand how how

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Speaker 2: hot it is. So you know this is a new case.

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Speaker 2: We're all saying it too. There's not a ton to

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Speaker 2: point to in terms of protocol.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, let's go to.

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Speaker 9: We talk about a true crimpth And I quick question

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Speaker 9: for you. Wanted to get your perspective on how the

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Speaker 9: media should handle sourcing around persons of interest, especially when

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Speaker 9: they've not been publicly identified. I'm curious specifically around Ashley

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Speaker 9: Banfield's public sourcing on the son in law being possible

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Speaker 9: persons of interest but he's not been publicly identified. What

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Speaker 9: are your thoughts on how that was handled with led

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Speaker 9: your thoughts?

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Speaker 3: I have a big, good question. Yeah, same here, don't

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Speaker 3: get me started. I have big thoughts about that, Courtney.

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Speaker 3: Were you going to say something?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 6: I think it was handled poorly. I think it was irresponsible.

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Speaker 6: I think it's potentially life ruining. I think being in

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Speaker 6: the thick of it, assuming complete innocence, which is all

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Speaker 6: we can without him being identified. That to add that

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Speaker 6: layer of trauma on top of trauma is very poor.

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Speaker 4: I understand, like wanting to be the first and wanting

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Speaker 4: to like break something and whatnot. But I care about

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Speaker 4: the case more than I care about that, do you

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Speaker 4: know what I mean? Like I care more about the

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Speaker 4: case in them, you know, getting Nancy safely returned and

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Speaker 4: and whatnot that I care about clout.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I mean, I mean, there is not a single

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Speaker 2: thing that doesn't go through all of our minds about

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Speaker 2: somebody being wrongfully accused.

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Speaker 4: Of course, it's exciting to break something, of course, right

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Speaker 4: to be the first with the information. I think that's

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Speaker 4: exciting for a lot of you know, especially journalists, right,

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Speaker 4: But I'm not a journalist, so like.

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Speaker 2: I are, though, is there a certain special badge? So

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Speaker 2: who you're referring to is Ashley Bearfield?

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Speaker 7: You know?

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Speaker 8: Both?

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Speaker 2: Uh, you know, somebody we all respect and look up

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Speaker 2: to that Where did that all shake up?

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Speaker 3: You know that? Ever? Just no, no, So we're going

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Speaker 3: to come.

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Speaker 6: Right back, yeah and stick around because we're going to

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Speaker 6: go into the latest fallout from the Epstein files. We

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Speaker 6: have some talk back from you, and later Ted Bundy's

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Speaker 6: cousin joins us to discuss the family impact we've never

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Speaker 6: heard before True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight and iHeartRadio. We're talking

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Steph here with Courtney

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Speaker 2: and Boddy, and listen, we're getting to your talkbacks.

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Speaker 3: We appreciate them coming in.

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Speaker 2: Nancy Guthrie, we are really just all praying for her

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Speaker 2: safe return.

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Speaker 3: Let's go to a talk back about it right now.

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Speaker 10: Hey guys, it's Julia from South Carolina. I just saw

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Speaker 10: the photos in the Nancy Guthrie case of the perpetrator

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Speaker 10: on the porch, and I'm just wondering if Nancy may

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Speaker 10: have come to the door and saw the perpetrator and

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Speaker 10: maybe he got scared took her there. There was a struggle,

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Speaker 10: that's why there's blood on the porch, and maybe that's

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Speaker 10: why there's no DNA in the house and not much evidence.

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Speaker 3: Have a great night. We have the same theory.

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Speaker 4: That's my theory, and I agree the wording from Cash

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Speaker 4: Ptel when he tweeted out the images or the video,

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Speaker 4: he was like, you know, this is this is this

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Speaker 4: video and these are pictures from the same timeframe, and

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Speaker 4: it kind of made me think that maybe the guy

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Speaker 4: was like lurking around for about forty minutes trying to

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Speaker 4: get in. And I think I mentioned this to Joseph

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Speaker 4: the night that he was here with us. I believe

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Speaker 4: he was here Tuesday with us, right, and he kind

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Speaker 4: of agreed that it looked like maybe, you know, maybe

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Speaker 4: Nancy came to the door.

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Speaker 2: Maybe maybe it seems like she would have, right, she

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Speaker 2: would have come to the door. Maybe it was somebody

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Speaker 2: she did recognize or not, whether way that is, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: or maybe she knew their voice. Maybe it's somebody who

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Speaker 2: had interacted with her in her home or around her home,

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Speaker 2: or service to her home in some way, And yeah,

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Speaker 2: perhaps she came to the door. It also might account

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Speaker 2: for that forty minutes. You know, it's been reported that

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Speaker 2: there was this forty minutes of lag time that they

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Speaker 2: can really pinpoint just based on the ring footage and

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Speaker 2: sort of the time when her watch went out of distance.

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Speaker 2: So you know, if you're really trying to be really

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Speaker 2: meticulous about this particular crime and you've thought it through,

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Speaker 2: you'd be in and out of there real quick. You

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Speaker 2: wouldn't linger for forty to forty five minutes, unless maybe

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Speaker 2: you were looking for pass codes or something, or for

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Speaker 2: very valuables in the house, or having her show you

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Speaker 2: or she could have gone that. He could have been

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Speaker 2: checking different backgrounds maybe.

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Speaker 11: So maybe it was less of a kidnapping plan. Maybe

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Speaker 11: he was planning to try to rob the house and

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Speaker 11: she will be.

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Speaker 6: That doesn't sit with me, because that's the last thing.

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Speaker 6: If you don't plan to take a human, that's an

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Speaker 6: all owing Yes, any four year old human that's in

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Speaker 6: your care.

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Speaker 3: I think you were at that point, right, that's very true.

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Speaker 4: But there's this this forty minute gap from when a

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Speaker 4: person was detected on camera and the camera was removed

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Speaker 4: from the you know, basically when it was discover it

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Speaker 4: was disconnected at like one forty seven, okay, it was

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Speaker 4: removed or disconnected, and then at two twelve the camera

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Speaker 4: software detected movements. It's kind of interesting. I don't in

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Speaker 4: any event, it's it's forty minutes.

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Speaker 12: Yeah, that's a big gap of time. Yeah, so it's scary.

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Speaker 3: Let's go to another talk back.

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Speaker 13: Okay, Hi, this is Danielle calling from Nova Scotia, Canada.

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Speaker 13: So you wanted opinions, and this is an opinion I

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Speaker 13: really don't like having, but I do not think Nancy

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Speaker 13: Discuss three is alive anymore. And I don't want to

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Speaker 13: think this, but I feel like the whole kidnapping ransom

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Speaker 13: is all posturing, maybe an afterthought, maybe a before thought,

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Speaker 13: I'm not sure, to try to cover up the fact

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Speaker 13: that she isn't alive. Could have been a burglary gone wrong,

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Speaker 13: could have been an intentional murder for money, or who

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Speaker 13: knows what else. I just feel like if she were

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Speaker 13: alive right now, maybe there'd be more happening with the

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Speaker 13: ransom notes and all of that. But I'm not sure anyway,

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Speaker 13: and I do really hope and pray that she's found safely.

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Speaker 13: Thank you, love you guys.

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Speaker 3: Bye.

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Speaker 14: Oh.

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Speaker 4: I mean these are really good points, right, Like it's hard,

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Speaker 4: there's there's a similar scuttle, but you know that you

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Speaker 4: know it's possible that maybe this went too far than

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Speaker 4: the person the let's say, the abductor initially intended. And

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Speaker 4: you know, unfortunately Nancy passed during this condition of the crime,

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Speaker 4: and he absconded with her body because you know, there's

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Speaker 4: evidence left behind that he doesn't want, you know.

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Speaker 12: Oh that's interesting.

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Speaker 2: By the way, what a great getaway if everybody's looking

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Speaker 2: for an abducted a the four year old and going

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Speaker 2: door to door in the in the greater area, because

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Speaker 2: you know, we've decided there's this you know, orbit around

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Speaker 2: her home, that would be the most likely scenario. What

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Speaker 2: if she's much further away than that? And do you

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Speaker 2: know this is more of a you know, finding her

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Speaker 2: body and bringing it home. I hope that's not the case,

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Speaker 2: but yeah, totally understand where that could be.

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Speaker 6: And sadly what you just said that that also that

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Speaker 6: scenario which again we do not know we're putting information

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Speaker 6: into avoid, but that would explain the the forty minute time.

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Speaker 12: Oh that is that does logical. It's a logical interesting

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Speaker 12: m all right.

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Speaker 5: Another top Okay.

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Speaker 15: Hi, True crime tonight. This is Andrea from Indiana. I

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Speaker 15: am way too deep in this Nancy Death three stuff

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Speaker 15: because last night I had a dream that my mom

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Speaker 15: got kidnapped but we got her back like five minutes later,

401
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Speaker 15: six hundred and fifty dollars. So I don't know what

402
00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:07,040
Speaker 15: that does about my mom or me in my relationship

403
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Speaker 15: with my mom, but I thought you'd find that interesting.

404
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Speaker 15: I don't know if anyone else is having true crime

405
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Speaker 15: dreams as well. Have a good day.

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Speaker 3: I don't mean to laugh for your mom. Does she

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Speaker 3: know you had this dream?

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Speaker 12: She doesn't know.

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Speaker 3: I love you, Okay, so that's a nightmare for your mom.

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Speaker 3: We won't tell her.

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Speaker 2: Well, by the way, six hundred and fifty dollars. It

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00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:30,960
Speaker 2: ended very happy though.

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Speaker 3: Thanks you.

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Speaker 4: Not in your dream, but true crime dreams. I think

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Speaker 4: I will speak for myself.

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Speaker 6: I've certainly had them, and I there was a moment

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Speaker 6: in time where I talk in my sleep sometimes and

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Speaker 6: literally was waking my husband.

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Speaker 3: Up with welcome to the piped and massacre. Oh I met, yeah, you.

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Speaker 2: Just say yeah, but Corney, just say it for me.

421
00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:58,359
Speaker 2: Please tell me to welcome to the pipe. It was

422
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:02,159
Speaker 2: it an unimaginable crime. Tell me tell me it was

423
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:07,280
Speaker 2: because her voice is so iconic with that, right, it's

424
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:12,200
Speaker 2: like the best bedtime ritual. But welcome to the idahome massacre.

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00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:16,600
Speaker 2: This is the Idaho massacre. But so yeah, like, how

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Speaker 2: do you do you guys have nighttime rituals to kind

427
00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:21,679
Speaker 2: of ease your mind prior to sleep.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I play, I play like a minecraft or something

429
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:29,879
Speaker 4: that like is dumb. And I don't have. It doesn't

430
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:33,239
Speaker 4: give me, it helps me like un anxiety myself. Does

431
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:36,960
Speaker 4: that make sense? Like yes, And I just build houses

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Speaker 4: and like couches and stuff. It's stupid in bed, no,

433
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Speaker 4: but that's the house. Yeah, that's good. What do you do,

434
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Speaker 4: Stephanie at all?

435
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Speaker 3: I watch Bravo? Yeah, I watched my trashy TV.

436
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,040
Speaker 2: I watch my reality shows as I fall asleep, which

437
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Speaker 2: I know is terrible.

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Speaker 3: I did.

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Speaker 2: I have been told by many a sleep expert that

440
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:01,560
Speaker 2: that is incredibly unhealthy for your brain and way too intense.

441
00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:03,240
Speaker 3: It's just silly, believe.

442
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,879
Speaker 2: I watched some of that stuff and it's like I

443
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,119
Speaker 2: see it's like almost like a little bit of white noise.

444
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:11,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, white, that's how I look at it. Do what

445
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:11,879
Speaker 3: about you? Court?

446
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:16,520
Speaker 6: So Bravo's actually too much because I'm engaged with Bravo,

447
00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 6: so I really I take it down. That's part of

448
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,639
Speaker 6: the reason I watch so much West Wing or Er

449
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:27,640
Speaker 6: or I've been watching for Netflix home home decorating show

450
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,480
Speaker 6: that's the most relaxing. So just really body, like you said,

451
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 6: turn my brain off and then go to bed.

452
00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:37,119
Speaker 4: Yeah, I always put on a show that I've seen

453
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,560
Speaker 4: a million times. You know, like Star Trek Deep Space

454
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,240
Speaker 4: nine is like one of my favorites now because I

455
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 4: know what's going on. I don't have to pay attention

456
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 4: to it. But your favorites, Oh it's so good deep

457
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 4: spacing on the start. But anyway, I know what's going on,

458
00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:53,320
Speaker 4: and it makes me feel like I'm not by myself

459
00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:54,760
Speaker 4: because there's people talking and stuff.

460
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:58,160
Speaker 11: Yes, I totally And you don't have to focus on

461
00:23:58,240 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 11: it as much because I've seen it before.

462
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:00,520
Speaker 3: I've seen you.

463
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 12: Thank God.

464
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:03,880
Speaker 5: Mine was TikTok and I just would play with that.

465
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,959
Speaker 11: But now I'm falling down the algorithm of Epstein and

466
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,920
Speaker 11: that's all I'm sewing no, so which you know, I

467
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:14,119
Speaker 11: know we're going to be talking about that, but I

468
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:15,159
Speaker 11: don't know how to change that.

469
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 4: Let's talk about let's talk about Epstein. Get it out

470
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:18,000
Speaker 4: of our system.

471
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:19,639
Speaker 12: Please please do that for me.

472
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 7: Yeah.

473
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:22,800
Speaker 2: I mean we're just really having a lot of internal

474
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,200
Speaker 2: conversations just to bring you guys into it, about how

475
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:31,440
Speaker 2: to really cover this ethically, you know, without really you know,

476
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:36,160
Speaker 2: cherry picking some of the big moments that just seem

477
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 2: either like aha or that just are going.

478
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 3: To make everybody feel more scared.

479
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 2: So again, we're like, we have like categories that we're

480
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:50,399
Speaker 2: looking into, you know, certain people, places and things. But again,

481
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 2: if you guys have certain pieces of this puzzle that

482
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 2: you want us to cover more or less, you know,

483
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,520
Speaker 2: say the word eight eight ah three one crime you

484
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 2: can leave in your talkbacks as well. Because we're kind

485
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 2: of frankly minding new territory for ourselves. You know, this

486
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 2: is unexpected and far larger than I think any of

487
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 2: us were expecting.

488
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,440
Speaker 3: So as we're navigating these.

489
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 2: Files Adam taha, Sam, we're all really playing all in

490
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,439
Speaker 2: on it, but you know, we're trying to kind of

491
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 2: keep our wits as well and not be led by,

492
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,119
Speaker 2: you know, anything personal. So keep it coming if you

493
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,480
Speaker 2: guys have any thoughts or feelings as well, because it's

494
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:38,399
Speaker 2: pretty it's pretty hard to wrap your brain around. Yeah,

495
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:39,680
Speaker 2: should we go to a talkback?

496
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 3: Yeah? Okay, ladies.

497
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,919
Speaker 16: I have gasped and gusped and screamed and scrummed that

498
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,920
Speaker 16: many times in this episode. Firstly, when Stephanie's back, it

499
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:53,680
Speaker 16: is amazing to have you. Secondly merch also, and then thirdly,

500
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 16: what the hell these Epstein files and the bank accounts

501
00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 16: and the photos does it feel to like to anyone

502
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,480
Speaker 16: that they trying to threaten people to keep them quiet.

503
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:02,919
Speaker 3: I don't know.

504
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,399
Speaker 16: Maybe it's the conspiracy theorist in me, but it seems

505
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,439
Speaker 16: sauce sauce.

506
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 3: I think it's fact.

507
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's what we're learning is that the

508
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 2: financial system as we know it is a very specific

509
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:21,920
Speaker 2: financial system with checks and balances and regulatory systems not

510
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 2: just within the US but globally that we collectively are

511
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 2: not a part of. There's two parallel banking universes, and

512
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 2: we have a set of roles, and appears that there's

513
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 2: a whole other set of roles that we've been sort

514
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 2: of left out of.

515
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 3: And I don't even know what that.

516
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:44,960
Speaker 2: Means, because that's how much I've even personally been left

517
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 2: out of it. You know, this is everything we were

518
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 2: being told wasn't is.

519
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:52,640
Speaker 3: I mean, it's the profit.

520
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 6: So you know the banks that now it's coming to

521
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 6: light how much they were looking the other way with

522
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 6: the hernal correspondence that has been coming out of you know,

523
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 6: Epstein being flagged along the way for all of the

524
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:12,639
Speaker 6: illegal things he was doing, but everyone was making profit.

525
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,640
Speaker 6: I mean, that's just the simple, it's the plain answer.

526
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 6: You look the other way to make a buck.

527
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:23,359
Speaker 4: At this hearing yesterday and when you know, Pam BONDI

528
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 4: was in front of Congress and she was being questioned

529
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:27,879
Speaker 4: about what did she know, when did she know it,

530
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,400
Speaker 4: and whatnot, and she was like, this is ridiculous.

531
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,159
Speaker 3: The dow is over. You know, the dow is I

532
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 3: think that the most petulant response that.

533
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,680
Speaker 4: But it goes to what Courtney just said, because as

534
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:40,679
Speaker 4: long as everybody's making money, they're fine with it.

535
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 3: And when she said that, I literally thought that, Yeah,

536
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 3: I never made that connection until right the second.

537
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 4: As long as they're making money, they're totally okay. They're

538
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:54,879
Speaker 4: they're fine looking away, is what I mean. Like, yeah, okay,

539
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 4: so I meaning of the problem.

540
00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:02,879
Speaker 2: Wow, funny enough that just came into like focus and

541
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 2: color from me for the first time. Yeah, that's true,

542
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 2: that is what she said. I thought she was just

543
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 2: sort of distracting the conversation about something so meaningful about

544
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 2: turning it to just money. But you're right, as long

545
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 2: as the Dow is up, then everybody has to look

546
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:19,400
Speaker 2: a blind Wow.

547
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 3: She's ridiculous. The dolls over.

548
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:23,919
Speaker 4: You know, whatever it was, I don't even know, but

549
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 4: it's like the Dow is up over fifty thousand or.

550
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 3: What it nice to see equivalent.

551
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 17: Oh my goodness, it's almost like a funny Freudian slip

552
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 17: because it's like if the files, if everything's unredacted, then

553
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 17: the dow goes down, you know, and it's.

554
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, Adam, that is a salient point. Oh my gos

555
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 3: a good point.

556
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 4: So I just think it emphasizes what you were saying, Courtney,

557
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 4: with the banking system being like all these Epstein things,

558
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 4: all these Epstein red flags, but look at all the

559
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 4: fees we're making, look at all the you know what

560
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 4: I mean, Like.

561
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, handover first.

562
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 2: So keeping us busy, busy as little busy bees, pretending

563
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 2: that we're like voting on things and making decisions and

564
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 2: arguing about things and places, it turns out it might

565
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 2: not actually be all relevant. Yeah, I can't imagine that's

566
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 2: entirely the case.

567
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 3: So I don't want to misspeak. It feels that way.

568
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:23,719
Speaker 2: Boy, It does feel like there's been a lot of

569
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 2: sex trafficking going on, and that pedophilia is at.

570
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 3: The center of so much of it.

571
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 2: So if you know you've been the victim of a

572
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 2: crime that in any way touches into the tentacles of this.

573
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 2: I would say, you know, tread lightly on the looking

574
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 2: in all the files. It could be very triggering if

575
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 2: you're not prepared, and we really are trying to sort

576
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 2: through to be as effective. Is there another talkback we

577
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 2: could go to?

578
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 12: Now?

579
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 18: Hello, this is Timothy from Sedona Colin again with the

580
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 18: swag opinion. Actually it's not an opinion. I hope everyone

581
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 18: feels this way. It's remarkable that in Europe they're actually

582
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 18: investigating and prosecuting people in the Epstein files, but over

583
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 18: here they're saying that that's just not going to happen,

584
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 18: which is disgusting. Everyone I know is outraged. It's not

585
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 18: the Department of Justice, it's the Department of Pedophile Protection.

586
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 18: Love the Show, allegedly allegedly, allegedly, allegedly allegedly, We love

587
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 18: you too.

588
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 4: I think we all agree, love you too. I think

589
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 4: we all agree. One of the things that I find

590
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 4: interesting Ta how you were talking about, you know, these

591
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 4: TikTok algorithms you're on. I implore everybody to go do

592
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 4: a search for what are what is being said outside

593
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 4: of America and go watch those videos. Oh okay, very

594
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 4: very interesting.

595
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 2: Our hearts are with Nancy Guthrie's family, Savannah of course,

596
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 2: and her sister and her brother. I think we're all

597
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 2: really collectively looking for her and just praying for a

598
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 2: happy outcome.

599
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 3: And talkbacks keep them coming in.

600
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 2: I know we're having a lot of swag conversations, so taha,

601
00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 2: I promise we're going to get to that tonight, right,

602
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 2: you promise I.

603
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 12: Will keep my fingers crossed.

604
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 2: Okay, no, breaking news seems to always win, but okay,

605
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 2: let's go to a talk back right now.

606
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 14: Hi, True Crime tonight. This is Marta from Iowa. One

607
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 14: of the names that really stood out in these six

608
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 14: new names that were released that you discussed tonight regarding

609
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 14: the Ebstein list was Jean Luke Brenell. And his name

610
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 14: was mentioned quite a bit in the Virginia Giffrey memoir

611
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:29,239
Speaker 14: and it just resonated with me because he's not a

612
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 14: new name, he's definitely somebody that Virginia talked about quite

613
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 14: a bit.

614
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is the modeling guy, right, that's right, Thank

615
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 4: you for that, Marta.

616
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 6: And you're exactly right. It's a he's a Jean Luke Burnell.

617
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 6: He's a French modeling agent. He founded MC two and

618
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 6: character model which was reportedly financed in part by Jeffrey Ebstein.

619
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 6: He was accused by a bunch of women of recruiting

620
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 6: young mom models, including miners, funneling them into the Epstein

621
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 6: Orbit and Yeah, French authorities arrested him back in December

622
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 6: of twenty twenty. He was charged with rape of miners.

623
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 6: He was charged with sexual assault, and while he was

624
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 6: held in prestrial detention, he was found dead February twenty

625
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 6: two in his prison cell with what officials ruled a suicide.

626
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 2: Wow, suicide seems to happen a lot in this case

627
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 2: with Virginia Gouffrey. Who listen, I've gone down this rabbit

628
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 2: hole and people very very close to her have told

629
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 2: me firsthand that they truly believe it was a suicide.

630
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 3: And then I'm chasing a ghost. To me, the timing

631
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 3: just has.

632
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 2: Always felt impossible to imagine that here it is Virginia

633
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 2: the face of this entire, this entire case, right, many

634
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 2: thousands of girls on the backs of Virginia, right, and

635
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:06,239
Speaker 2: she's kind of rooting for every every person who's been

636
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 2: wronged period, male, female. What have you just you know,

637
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 2: months prior to it all crashing in, she dies by

638
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 2: suicide after that strange like accident that she had had

639
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 2: the bruised photo. You know, how that's been explained to

640
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 2: me is that she was in fact in some sort

641
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 2: of you know, well documented abusive relationship, that perhaps that's

642
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 2: what the bruising was from, and that she had made

643
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 2: up a story surrounding again allegedly may she rest in peace,

644
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 2: perhaps made up a story about the bruising to protect

645
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 2: whoever did this to her. She was going through a

646
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 2: contentious breakup, there was some custodial issues, you know, there

647
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 2: was all the things. Right, this is somebody who had

648
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 2: been you know, traumatized as a young girl by many,

649
00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 2: including her own father, according to her memoir.

650
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 3: So now here she is being.

651
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 2: Validated as so many girls and boys. Can we unvalidated?

652
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 2: Can we talk about this guy though? This John Ley Bernell?

653
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 2: So he okay, fundamentally like the breakdown. He's French, and

654
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 2: he had like a modeling agency, right, and it was

655
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 2: called MC two and Character Model Management. Now this model

656
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 2: management company was funded by Epstein, right, so it's almost

657
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 2: like a self serving funnel of young underage beauties. Right

658
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:39,479
Speaker 2: to remember how let's say, right we were talking about

659
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 2: this models were so young, especially back then in the nineties,

660
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 2: you know, like they were you know, the thirteen fourteen

661
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 2: better right, just to set the stage.

662
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:52,959
Speaker 3: Sorry, no, you're one hundred percent right.

663
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:57,319
Speaker 4: I just feel like, you know, this whole I'm sure

664
00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 4: they did legit model you know, contracts and all that,

665
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 4: but I feel like it was kind of I mean,

666
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 4: I don't know this for sure, but I feel like

667
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:07,719
Speaker 4: it was kind of like a front for it all right,

668
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 4: and in a way to of course girls, Yes, of course,

669
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 4: And it was because it was funded by epscene, and

670
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 4: it was almost like he was beholden to epscene at

671
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 4: that exactly, and at that point he was this was

672
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 4: now his employer, and here it is. Maybe some modeling

673
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 4: was in fact happening.

674
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 3: But yeah, when four girls.

675
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 2: Was maybe a little bit more likely to be a

676
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:35,800
Speaker 2: perfect target and could get funneled through whatever creepy system

677
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 2: they were running.

678
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:37,840
Speaker 3: Well, think about it.

679
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 4: If you if you have a daughter who's a model,

680
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 4: right and you know she's fourteen, let's say, and you

681
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:47,880
Speaker 4: go to these modeling they become part of your life,

682
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 4: so they get to know you, and they can say

683
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 4: that Mom's not as involved, or you know what I mean,

684
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 4: or however where parents.

685
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 2: Involved, priod or dad's you know, a drinker and not

686
00:35:59,040 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 2: in a picture what if it?

687
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,400
Speaker 4: Thing is whatever it is, So I just it's so

688
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 4: it's almost demonic, I want to say, like, it's so.

689
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 2: They're preying on young people and looking for the cracks,

690
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 2: right so that genre they may see it, so they

691
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:15,239
Speaker 2: can fill it.

692
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 4: He's key, you know, and to your point, even with Virginia,

693
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 4: he's a key character, and unfortunately he's not here to

694
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 4: you know, tell us what's going on.

695
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 3: What happened? Do you guys think that he was outed?

696
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:32,319
Speaker 12: Like what? Yes?

697
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:35,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, yeah.

698
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 12: It sounds very suspicious.

699
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 2: Another hang, yeah, it sounds like everybody's close to this story.

700
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 4: Has it was right before his try to get to

701
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:44,799
Speaker 4: the grave in twenty twenty two.

702
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:46,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, odd timing.

703
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 3: Come on, come on, I mean, let's be honest.

704
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,760
Speaker 2: There's not a single person that has had these files

705
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:57,440
Speaker 2: in their hands that has felt that transparency was in

706
00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 2: any way possible. So then again, we're talking about generations

707
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:07,880
Speaker 2: at this point, decades, decades, multiple cabinets. Every single person

708
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 2: that's now in charge of so many things has lied

709
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:14,919
Speaker 2: to us about what's in it. And yeah, this guy

710
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 2: seems terrible. So imagine you're a young model getting brought

711
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 2: into the system of young models where.

712
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 3: You're so exciting, very right, You're excited.

713
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:27,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you have to be a little independent and

714
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 2: you want to be composed, and you're put in situations

715
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:31,360
Speaker 2: that you haven't been in before.

716
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 3: But the perfect this is the perfect setup.

717
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, is this in your And then you're like, this

718
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:42,320
Speaker 4: is this normal because you're young, right, unescorted by a guardian,

719
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 4: and oh, this must be what models do, right exactly. Oh,

720
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:50,320
Speaker 4: it just irritates me because they were so young. Anyway,

721
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 4: let's go to another talk.

722
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 7: Hi.

723
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 15: This is related to the Epstein conversation that we had

724
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:58,360
Speaker 15: yesterday about how we can root out the bad people

725
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:01,280
Speaker 15: in power. There's a long history a powerful men exploiting

726
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 15: people that you can trace back through slavery. And like

727
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 15: Thomas Jefferson, who has views of an assault, I mean,

728
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:10,759
Speaker 15: I love this country, but I want the people in

729
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 15: charge to actually live up to the values we claim

730
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 15: to stand for.

731
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:14,239
Speaker 16: I don't know what to do.

732
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 15: Because this problem is so wide and goes so far back.

733
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:18,279
Speaker 15: I don't know if we're ever going to be able

734
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:20,759
Speaker 15: to root out everybody, but I want to try so

735
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 15: I don't think we should give up hope. Anyway, my

736
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 15: name is Andrea.

737
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 3: Thank you speak in my language.

738
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:28,720
Speaker 2: Yes, she's so right, but by the way, the norms

739
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 2: maybe are changing real time, you know, I think it's

740
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 2: so true.

741
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:36,320
Speaker 3: She's right. Going in the country could.

742
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 2: Be timeat Maybe we should just stop it now.

743
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 3: Can we make this not a thing? Starting today? Like,

744
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 3: from this moment today, moment toward, let it be stone.

745
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 4: We have to live up to the constitution, Like we

746
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 4: really do have the best constitution in the in the planet.

747
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 4: We could be the best country for I want to

748
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 4: believe that. That's what you know, my grandfather and my

749
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 4: father and what not fought for. Right, Like, let's live

750
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,840
Speaker 4: up to it from this point forward, from this moment

751
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:12,280
Speaker 4: exactly right.

752
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 3: Let's let it be so the phoenix rising from the ashes. Yeah,

753
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,320
Speaker 3: like sell us backward, no more pointing backward.

754
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 14: They have.

755
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:24,719
Speaker 3: But therefore they did it.

756
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's almost like we have to burn it down.

757
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 4: Oh no, And I don't mean like anartos that's please.

758
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 4: I just meant like, these people have to be held accountable,

759
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:39,239
Speaker 4: they have to be what does that look like?

760
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 2: You know, who who does that? Who's like, excuse me, sir, you're.

761
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 6: Well, honestly, Massey and Rocanna are really they're they're starting

762
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 6: it and calling people to the carpet, and yeah, they

763
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 6: are not alone, but they are loud, and maybe, honestly,

764
00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:00,880
Speaker 6: maybe it starts with them, Maybe it's.

765
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:04,439
Speaker 2: We have largely been alone, and you know, I think

766
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:06,720
Speaker 2: now they're feeling the support God willing.

767
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 3: But yeah, we all have to play our part.

768
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:14,240
Speaker 2: And I'm somewhere torn between piling on and also wanting

769
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,759
Speaker 2: to make sure that we're not just getting gas lit

770
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 2: for reasons of fear and panic and distractions.

771
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:24,279
Speaker 3: So I don't really know. So I'm going to be

772
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 3: doing this all weekend. Files and files and more files.

773
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 6: If you're just joining us, this is true Crime tonight,

774
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 6: and we indeed are talking about the Epstein files and

775
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:36,400
Speaker 6: you are talking about it as well. So we're in

776
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,080
Speaker 6: the middle of answering some talkbacks and let's go to

777
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 6: another one.

778
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 17: Good morning to Crime. I'm sorry if I sound happy puppy.

779
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:46,400
Speaker 17: I'm out walking in my neighborhood earlier morning. It probably

780
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:49,320
Speaker 17: feels like seventeen degrees. But anyways, I wanted to say

781
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 17: I love listening to Lisa. She was so captivating. I'm

782
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 17: so glad she has her voice and she's getting it

783
00:40:56,200 --> 00:41:00,319
Speaker 17: out there. God bless her and all those that we

784
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,319
Speaker 17: don't even know about, but maybe they'll step forward after

785
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 17: listening to her. Thank y'all keep up from the work.

786
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 5: We love you.

787
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 3: In that early morning watch so inspire.

788
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 2: I know, great, you cannot get me out of bed

789
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 2: in the morning.

790
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 4: Like if it is if if I was.

791
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:22,600
Speaker 2: On fire, dare I say, I would still have to rest? Honestly,

792
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 2: it is so cold. It is just I'm so impressed,

793
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 2: and I'm so impressed, and maybe tomorrow is the day.

794
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 2: But maybe there's somebody out there who heard Lisa and

795
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:38,239
Speaker 2: her the courage in her voice and heard you know

796
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:41,960
Speaker 2: that people want to hear her right that it might

797
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 2: inspire future victims God willing to speak up and I

798
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 2: can really hopefully the takeaway mm hmm.

799
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:54,719
Speaker 6: And Lisa Phillips, she was an Epstein survivor who you

800
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 6: know she was, so she's so brave, she's so poised

801
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:00,799
Speaker 6: and if you do want to hear more stories from

802
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 6: her and other survivors of all sorts of abuse, she

803
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 6: has a podcast. It's called From Now On. It's excellent,

804
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:12,920
Speaker 6: it's award winning and it's uplifting and it really brings

805
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:17,400
Speaker 6: survivors together in strength. And she is also at I

806
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 6: am Lisa Phillips on Instagram, just for anyone who wants

807
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:22,440
Speaker 6: to dig a little deeper.

808
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 2: And by the way, the True Crime Tonight audience, you know,

809
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 2: we have arguably maybe one of the largest cases, if

810
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:33,280
Speaker 2: not two of the largest cases of its kind period.

811
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:38,280
Speaker 2: This Nancy Guthrie case is unparalleled in so many ways,

812
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 2: and I think, you know, the True Crime audience really putting.

813
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:43,480
Speaker 3: Their skills to work.

814
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:47,880
Speaker 2: It's, you know, just this great task and compassion, but

815
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 2: also great tips.

816
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 3: You know, I think we are.

817
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:54,719
Speaker 2: Really actionable together, and I have to say same for

818
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:57,919
Speaker 2: the Epstein files. I think we can really tackle this

819
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 2: in a meaningful way, I hope.

820
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:06,840
Speaker 3: So another talk paka hey everyone, this is Joanna.

821
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:09,760
Speaker 19: You've officially forced me out of my DM comfort zone.

822
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:13,320
Speaker 20: So my opinion on the current state of affairs right.

823
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:15,359
Speaker 4: Now and one word would have to be disheartened.

824
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:17,839
Speaker 19: I really truly thought maybe we would be somewhere else

825
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:21,320
Speaker 19: in twenty twenty six, but here we are. So I

826
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:25,320
Speaker 19: personally just tried to use these times as a teaching

827
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 19: mechanism for my fifteen year old daughter to tell her

828
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:30,360
Speaker 19: to use her voice and stand.

829
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 17: Up for what she believes in love y'all, thank you,

830
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 17: have a great day.

831
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:38,400
Speaker 3: Bye perfect. It's so true, she's so good fifteen years old.

832
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:39,759
Speaker 3: We need some We.

833
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:43,400
Speaker 2: Need some fifteen year old chicks who can speak to themselves.

834
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:45,400
Speaker 4: So they become twenty you know, twenty one and twenty

835
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 4: two and twenty three year old chicks that aren't going

836
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:49,320
Speaker 4: to put up with any crap.

837
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:53,319
Speaker 3: Ect Well, I'm so glad you you left. That left

838
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:56,360
Speaker 3: your DM comfort also, Joanna, So yeah, thanks to that job.

839
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 3: You did great.

840
00:43:57,719 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 4: But I have to say I'm in a my local

841
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 4: groups Dephane's heard me drawn on about it for a

842
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 4: thousand years, but.

843
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:04,480
Speaker 3: It is so helpful.

844
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:09,360
Speaker 6: And a lot of mothers are saying, hey, I want

845
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:12,799
Speaker 6: you know, my child is feeling my teenager is feeling overwhelmed.

846
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 6: How could I make them feel powerful? And any small

847
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:18,839
Speaker 6: actions and using your voice and whether it's you know,

848
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:22,040
Speaker 6: helping at a local shelter, whether it's something that is

849
00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 6: proactive and where you can do some good in your

850
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:28,319
Speaker 6: corner of the world, is empowering.

851
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:30,920
Speaker 12: That's all. I think.

852
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:33,799
Speaker 2: That's why people like true crime or by the way,

853
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:36,359
Speaker 2: when we say like true crime. It kind of triggers me,

854
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:38,239
Speaker 2: you know, I get always twisted with this and like

855
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:41,399
Speaker 2: everyone's like I love true crime as a genre, I'm like, well,

856
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:44,240
Speaker 2: you don't really love crime. Like we don't love crime

857
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 2: quite the opposite. I think we like to understand how

858
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:51,799
Speaker 2: these things happen, hopefully, try to keep ourselves safe, and

859
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 2: you know, kind of work together to collect pieces and clues.

860
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:58,319
Speaker 3: Right, body, would you agree with that? Yeah, I would

861
00:44:58,360 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 3: agree with you.

862
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:01,839
Speaker 2: None of us love crime, no, but like now more

863
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 2: than ever, this genre, like this is the time that

864
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 2: we're all able to really I don't know how anybody

865
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:09,680
Speaker 2: gets away with the crime at this point, because I

866
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:12,239
Speaker 2: don't know they're so smart. People are so smart, but

867
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:14,879
Speaker 2: I you know, a lot of people really do.

868
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:16,479
Speaker 3: The CSI effect is real.

869
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:20,240
Speaker 4: People really do think that, you know, crimes are solved,

870
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 4: you know, and and the police show you everything, and

871
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:25,839
Speaker 4: you know, people are really people really need to temper

872
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:28,239
Speaker 4: their expectations though too a little bit. You know, while

873
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:30,879
Speaker 4: we have wile, while I have the stage, people really

874
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:32,719
Speaker 4: need to temper their expectations on what they're going to

875
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:34,480
Speaker 4: learn from the police.

876
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 6: And rightly, so, rightly so, one hundred percent, so right

877
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:40,920
Speaker 6: as they protect their investigation, to.

878
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:45,080
Speaker 4: Protect Listen, Nancy is more important than our curiosity, right.

879
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:48,799
Speaker 2: Even if it's trying to be helpful, even if we're

880
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 2: trying to be helpful.

881
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:53,719
Speaker 6: Correct, absolutely well, stick around. We are loving your talk

882
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:56,239
Speaker 6: back so much. But coming up at the top of

883
00:45:56,280 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 6: the hour, Ted Bundy's cousin is joining us. She's going

884
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:03,319
Speaker 6: to discuss the death row letters she received from Ted

885
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:07,360
Speaker 6: Bundy and family betrayal and honestly the darkness that was

886
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 6: hiding in plain sight. So you won't want to miss

887
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 6: this True Crime Tonight. Welcome back to True Crime Tonight

888
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:27,480
Speaker 6: on iHeartRadio, where we talk true crime all the time.

889
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 6: I'm Courtney Armstrong, so lucky to be here as always

890
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:36,160
Speaker 6: with Stephanie Leidecker and body. Move in and listen. If

891
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:38,400
Speaker 6: you've missed any part of the show, do not sweat it.

892
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:41,799
Speaker 6: You can catch us as a podcast and always we

893
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:44,719
Speaker 6: want to hear from you, so call anytime eighted eight

894
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 6: three to one crime or get with us on socials

895
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:51,319
Speaker 6: at True Crime Tonight show on TikTok and Instagram, and

896
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:52,960
Speaker 6: True Crime Tonight on Facebook.

897
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 3: We take smoke signals as well, so listen.

898
00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 6: We're so thrilled and Excited are joined by Joseph Freed.

899
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 3: So.

900
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:07,440
Speaker 6: He is co founder of Marwar Junction. He is the

901
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 6: executive producer of an upcoming Oxygen documentary, Loved Ted Bundy,

902
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:18,280
Speaker 6: and that's going to premiere this Sunday, February fifteenth. Joe

903
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 6: also produced The Perfect Wife on So Good, So Good

904
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:26,239
Speaker 6: and many many other things, and he's really one of

905
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:28,439
Speaker 6: the most solid producers out there.

906
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:30,960
Speaker 3: Stephanie and I know him for a long time.

907
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 2: Fun fact, this is you know, true Crime tonight extended family.

908
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 2: Joe Freed and his partner Allison, and Courtney and I

909
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:42,520
Speaker 2: we all work together back in the day.

910
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:43,359
Speaker 3: And you guys do.

911
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:49,080
Speaker 2: Such great work, and you're so ethically minded and cool

912
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:53,440
Speaker 2: to work with and such great storytellers. So Edna, obviously

913
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 2: you've been in such great hands. But your project specifically

914
00:47:56,640 --> 00:48:00,439
Speaker 2: is so interesting and we're so glad here.

915
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:03,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, Edna, my goodness. So Edna Cowell.

916
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:07,359
Speaker 6: She is Ted Bundy's cousin and also an author of

917
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:13,840
Speaker 6: the book Dark Tide, and listen, Joe and Edna together

918
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 6: are helping tell this personal story about one of America's

919
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:23,440
Speaker 6: most notorious serial killers. So, guys, big breath, we are

920
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 6: so I'm so amped, I can't say enough.

921
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 8: But hello, a great introduction.

922
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 14: Thank you.

923
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:35,200
Speaker 6: Of course, what we might start with, Joseph, what what

924
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:37,680
Speaker 6: did first draw you to Edna's story?

925
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:38,279
Speaker 5: So?

926
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 3: Why and why did it feel like now is the

927
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 3: time to tell it?

928
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:44,799
Speaker 8: Wow? Well, I mean, as you might have known, there's

929
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:48,440
Speaker 8: been a lot of documentaries about ed Bundy.

930
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:48,839
Speaker 5: Over the years.

931
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:51,240
Speaker 21: There's been one or two, and so you start to ask.

932
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:56,280
Speaker 8: Yourself, is there anything else to be told? And Edna

933
00:48:56,680 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 8: wrote a book about her experience, and so of course

934
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:04,400
Speaker 8: I picked it up because you know, I had to

935
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:07,279
Speaker 8: find out for myself what's it all about? And what

936
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:12,560
Speaker 8: really struck me immediately is that it's about Ted Bundy, Yes,

937
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:16,319
Speaker 8: but it's not about him and his crime so much

938
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:21,960
Speaker 8: as it's about this idea that really shook me, because

939
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:26,680
Speaker 8: it's about everything that we assume, about our families, about

940
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:29,759
Speaker 8: the people we're close to, and about all of our

941
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:35,760
Speaker 8: human assumptions and our vulnerability and all of our blind spots.

942
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:39,439
Speaker 8: Ask the big question. It doesn't ask the question, oh,

943
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:43,160
Speaker 8: how did Ted Bundy commit these crimes? And how did

944
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:46,080
Speaker 8: he know perpetrate his crimes? That asked the questions what

945
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:50,000
Speaker 8: happens when you discover that someone you love is not

946
00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:54,840
Speaker 8: the person that you thought they were, and it explores

947
00:49:54,920 --> 00:50:03,919
Speaker 8: how we navigate trust and danger and the unknown. And yes,

948
00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:07,600
Speaker 8: I remember putting the book down at one point and

949
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:11,080
Speaker 8: thinking about my family or the people that I love,

950
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:15,000
Speaker 8: and trying to imagine how I might respond if I

951
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:17,720
Speaker 8: just projected some what I loved was not the person

952
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 8: that I imagined them to be. And not just that they

953
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:22,440
Speaker 8: I discovered they were a liar or they you know,

954
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:26,200
Speaker 8: achieated or whatever it is, that they were a monster.

955
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:32,280
Speaker 8: And there was something emotionally universal about that, how scary

956
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:38,160
Speaker 8: that was, and something inherently cinematic about the story as well.

957
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:40,880
Speaker 7: So I was, I was.

958
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:44,680
Speaker 8: I reached out to Edna immediately.

959
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:50,279
Speaker 3: Amazing.

960
00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:53,160
Speaker 6: I mean, well it could be better than that, really,

961
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:58,839
Speaker 6: and Edna, we have to know. So growing up sort

962
00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:02,200
Speaker 6: of how did you understand and Ted Bundy's role in

963
00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 6: your life before everything came out?

964
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:05,480
Speaker 3: Like, how'd you grow up?

965
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:07,600
Speaker 8: Yeah?

966
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:12,560
Speaker 7: So we had a great time growing up. I mean,

967
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:16,160
Speaker 7: our two families did a lot of things together. We

968
00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:20,879
Speaker 7: had you know, family picnics and events because actually we

969
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:25,240
Speaker 7: had all migrated to the Pacific Northwest from the Philadelphia area,

970
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:29,280
Speaker 7: so on my dad's side. We were the only family members,

971
00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 7: so we would get together and have picnics. We had

972
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:37,480
Speaker 7: a cabin out on a beach Puget Sound, and it

973
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 7: was a fun place to gather. Ted is five years

974
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 7: older than I was, so he pretty much hung out

975
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:47,200
Speaker 7: with my brother who was also the same age, and

976
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:49,640
Speaker 7: I played with the younger kids. But he was always

977
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:52,880
Speaker 7: such a nice kid, you know, he was like one

978
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:55,239
Speaker 7: of the other big brothers, and he was always really

979
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:58,839
Speaker 7: nice to us. So that was my experience growing up

980
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:02,600
Speaker 7: with him. He was a great guy, a great, great

981
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:03,520
Speaker 7: kid to be around.

982
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:06,879
Speaker 3: So you guys were pretty close. I feel like you're

983
00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:07,919
Speaker 3: touching on too.

984
00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:08,479
Speaker 8: Yeah.

985
00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:10,320
Speaker 2: Like one of the things that I think we're always

986
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:14,080
Speaker 2: scratching at when we're talking about true crime stories or

987
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:17,120
Speaker 2: things that it can be so grizzly is just how

988
00:52:17,239 --> 00:52:21,000
Speaker 2: a person can be two things at once or many

989
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:24,839
Speaker 2: things at once, is just I mean, that duality is

990
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:25,720
Speaker 2: just hard.

991
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:32,400
Speaker 7: It is because he was somebody that I completely trusted,

992
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 7: and it actually really came home to me. I had

993
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:39,600
Speaker 7: moved away for a little while because my family had

994
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:43,000
Speaker 7: moved out of state, and I came back to the

995
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:47,800
Speaker 7: Seattle area to finish up my college education at the

996
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:52,080
Speaker 7: University of Washington, and so I felt so fortunate because

997
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:55,919
Speaker 7: I had gotten an apartment that was only a five

998
00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:59,680
Speaker 7: minute walk from his place, and so it made me

999
00:52:59,719 --> 00:53:03,760
Speaker 7: feel well, ironically, it made my parents feel very secure

1000
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:04,960
Speaker 7: knowing he was nearby.

1001
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:07,240
Speaker 3: Oh my goodness, and said.

1002
00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:09,880
Speaker 7: If I needed anything, you know, just called Ted. My

1003
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:12,320
Speaker 7: brother lived in Seattle, but he was a twenty minute

1004
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:16,320
Speaker 7: bus ride away, and Ted was literally a five minute walk.

1005
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:21,040
Speaker 7: And that began a really close relationship. I had finally

1006
00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:24,160
Speaker 7: grown up and was more of a contemporary of his,

1007
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:28,439
Speaker 7: and we spent a lot of time together, and I

1008
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:30,799
Speaker 7: introduced him to a lot of my friends, and we

1009
00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:33,720
Speaker 7: hung out and I wrote around in his little tan

1010
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:35,719
Speaker 7: V dub bug with him, you know.

1011
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:42,000
Speaker 4: So the bug the v W Oh my goodness, Joseph,

1012
00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:43,560
Speaker 4: you wanted to say something that looks.

1013
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:48,200
Speaker 8: Like well, I just There's so many parts of Edmond's

1014
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:51,600
Speaker 8: story that are fascinating, and in the documentary, we tracked

1015
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:57,920
Speaker 8: this entire journey through their childhood together. But this chapter

1016
00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:00,160
Speaker 8: that she's talking about when she's in the universe city

1017
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:03,040
Speaker 8: of Washington and Ted is living right down the street,

1018
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:07,759
Speaker 8: is some of the most fascinating and chilling parts of

1019
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:13,360
Speaker 8: the story because if you can imagine heads at Edna's apartment,

1020
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:16,840
Speaker 8: and we've heard the stories about Ted Bundy, He's charming,

1021
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:20,480
Speaker 8: he's handsome, and Edna and her friends are delighted to

1022
00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:24,680
Speaker 8: have him. And then the girls at the university begin

1023
00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:30,839
Speaker 8: to disappear, and Ted's back in her apartment with a

1024
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:34,040
Speaker 8: you know, a bunch of groceries and a bottle of

1025
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:37,839
Speaker 8: wine to spend time with them, and then girls begin

1026
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:41,279
Speaker 8: to disappear and get and forgive me. Then now I

1027
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:43,200
Speaker 8: feel like I'm telling your story and I should shut up.

1028
00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:47,440
Speaker 8: Really hit me what hit me over the head was

1029
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 8: the girls are disappearing, and Edna is terrified, as they

1030
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:55,239
Speaker 8: all were, and so terrified that she quit her job

1031
00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:57,279
Speaker 8: so she wouldn't have to walk home alone at night.

1032
00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:01,360
Speaker 8: And Ted comes over to her house to con for her.

1033
00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:04,080
Speaker 4: Mm hmmm, are you kidding me?

1034
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:07,919
Speaker 7: And so and he's the reason why we were all

1035
00:55:08,040 --> 00:55:10,759
Speaker 7: so right great frightened, but we didn't know it.

1036
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:12,120
Speaker 3: I did know.

1037
00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:15,200
Speaker 4: Did he know, though, that you were frightened because these

1038
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:17,279
Speaker 4: girls are going missing? Like did you share with him

1039
00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:18,480
Speaker 4: that you were you were frightened?

1040
00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:19,920
Speaker 8: Yes?

1041
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:23,839
Speaker 7: And and and he was he would share with us

1042
00:55:24,200 --> 00:55:26,279
Speaker 7: that he said, Oh, I know, I mean, this is

1043
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:29,160
Speaker 7: really this is really terrible. This is really a scary thing,

1044
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:34,000
Speaker 7: you know. And that's that's what blows my mind that

1045
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:38,120
Speaker 7: he could be. Yeah, so you know, one way with

1046
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:41,840
Speaker 7: us and and and you know, just just to be

1047
00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:45,600
Speaker 7: the Ted that we knew and the big brotherlike figure

1048
00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:47,440
Speaker 7: he was to me. I mean I had just adored him.

1049
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:51,879
Speaker 7: He was charming in fun of being around. And yeah, yeah,

1050
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:53,880
Speaker 7: was there.

1051
00:55:53,719 --> 00:55:57,359
Speaker 4: A specific moment that you can recall where like the

1052
00:55:57,400 --> 00:56:00,400
Speaker 4: reality of who Ted was in.

1053
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:07,200
Speaker 7: You know, there really was. And I had worked up

1054
00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:13,719
Speaker 7: in Alaska for the Alaskan King crab season, out in

1055
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:16,919
Speaker 7: the Aleutian Islands in Dutch Harbor, twelve hundred miles away

1056
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:19,680
Speaker 7: from the mainland of Alaska, out on a processing ship.

1057
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:24,439
Speaker 7: And while I was up there, I was getting all

1058
00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:28,400
Speaker 7: these things were happening. Ted had been arrested, and I

1059
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:33,080
Speaker 7: was just absolutely blown away when I found that out.

1060
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:36,520
Speaker 7: I was getting these letters from family. Everybody was just going,

1061
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:41,040
Speaker 7: this is bizarre, this couldn't be happening. And so yeah,

1062
00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:44,880
Speaker 7: so when I got back to Seattle, I knew that

1063
00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:48,840
Speaker 7: I needed to see him, and coincidentally, at the same

1064
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:54,120
Speaker 7: time he was out on bail, so I met up

1065
00:56:54,160 --> 00:56:59,319
Speaker 7: with him. I really wanted to believe, you know, that

1066
00:56:59,440 --> 00:57:03,239
Speaker 7: he was that he was innocent. I just you know

1067
00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:06,759
Speaker 7: how you have these dual feelings, like you receive this

1068
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:11,640
Speaker 7: negative news and you go, oh my god, not Ted,

1069
00:57:11,719 --> 00:57:15,680
Speaker 7: that's impossible. The governor, yeah, they have the wrong guy.

1070
00:57:15,719 --> 00:57:19,160
Speaker 7: Even the governor of the state was he was a

1071
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:22,600
Speaker 7: friend of his because Ted was so active in politics.

1072
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:26,160
Speaker 7: I mean, lots of people believed in him and were

1073
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:29,040
Speaker 7: just going, Okay, this must be a terrible mistake. And

1074
00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:33,800
Speaker 7: I just wanted to believe he was innocent. But there

1075
00:57:33,920 --> 00:57:36,960
Speaker 7: was a moment that we were in the car together

1076
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:44,240
Speaker 7: and I was driving, and what happened in that car

1077
00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:49,560
Speaker 7: changed everything. And it's just so chilling how this comes

1078
00:57:49,640 --> 00:57:54,040
Speaker 7: about in the documentary and how they they bring out

1079
00:57:54,080 --> 00:57:58,320
Speaker 7: this scene of realization, and even thinking about it right now,

1080
00:57:58,440 --> 00:57:59,200
Speaker 7: I get chills.

1081
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:01,000
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh.

1082
00:58:01,280 --> 00:58:03,520
Speaker 6: Listen, if you are just joining us, this is true

1083
00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:06,120
Speaker 6: Crime tonight, and we're talking with Joe Freed. He's the

1084
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:11,000
Speaker 6: executive producer of the upcoming Oxygen documentary Love Ted Bundy,

1085
00:58:11,560 --> 00:58:15,320
Speaker 6: And we are also blessed to be joined by Edna Cowell,

1086
00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:21,360
Speaker 6: who is Ted Bundy's cousin, So Edna, what was it

1087
00:58:21,520 --> 00:58:24,680
Speaker 6: like seeing in the documentary what you lived through?

1088
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:34,880
Speaker 7: You know, this has been an amazing experience for me

1089
00:58:35,120 --> 00:58:37,320
Speaker 7: to be able to tell my story. And if you

1090
00:58:37,320 --> 00:58:42,080
Speaker 7: can imagine, who would want I mean, I didn't want

1091
00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:44,960
Speaker 7: anybody to know that I was related to Ted Bunny.

1092
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:50,920
Speaker 7: I mean it went from adoring someone to wanting to

1093
00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:53,600
Speaker 7: run away and hide from the fact that I was

1094
00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:58,200
Speaker 7: related to him. And so for almost fifty years I

1095
00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:02,000
Speaker 7: could not even talk about him. I didn't want anybody

1096
00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:04,920
Speaker 7: to know. I mean, I've told people this many times.

1097
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:08,240
Speaker 7: I couldn't talk without stuttering, you know, just it was

1098
00:59:08,360 --> 00:59:12,240
Speaker 7: it was such a traumatic experience. And my daughters has

1099
00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:15,120
Speaker 7: said because of this documentary, I mean, she's really seen

1100
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:18,280
Speaker 7: me be able to get a lot of this out

1101
00:59:18,320 --> 00:59:21,160
Speaker 7: of my system. So this has been a really good

1102
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:25,120
Speaker 7: thing about it. And then to work with someone like

1103
00:59:25,240 --> 00:59:29,680
Speaker 7: Joseph Freed and Christopher Castle who was the showrunner, they

1104
00:59:29,800 --> 00:59:35,280
Speaker 7: had such sympathy, and I know, it's such an There's

1105
00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:39,200
Speaker 7: such an amazing group of people to work with. And

1106
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:43,400
Speaker 7: you know, I've been in advertising all my life and

1107
00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:46,360
Speaker 7: in sales, and I've always been on the other side

1108
00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:48,880
Speaker 7: of it where I talk to people and I be

1109
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:52,880
Speaker 7: quiet and let you know, wait to hear their story,

1110
00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:55,040
Speaker 7: and now here I am in the position having to

1111
00:59:55,080 --> 00:59:57,760
Speaker 7: tell mine. So it's been it's been quite an experience,

1112
00:59:57,800 --> 01:00:01,200
Speaker 7: but Joseph has really made it it possible for me

1113
01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:01,760
Speaker 7: to do it.

1114
01:00:04,600 --> 01:00:05,080
Speaker 3: What's there?

1115
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:08,160
Speaker 2: First of all, you're in such an extraordinary hands and

1116
01:00:08,200 --> 01:00:10,640
Speaker 2: it goes without saying, but you're a tremendous talker, So

1117
01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:14,160
Speaker 2: thank you for sharing, because it does sort of take

1118
01:00:14,160 --> 01:00:16,680
Speaker 2: the power out of so much. I would imagine, you know,

1119
01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:20,000
Speaker 2: the secrets that we hold on to sometimes are it

1120
01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:23,400
Speaker 2: can be therapeutic, the most free, for sure.

1121
01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:27,920
Speaker 7: Totally therapeust. Yes, yeah, First of all, writing the book

1122
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:32,560
Speaker 7: Dark Tide, growing up with Ted Bundy, that was hugely

1123
01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:37,919
Speaker 7: therapeutic because there's something about writing that is so releasing.

1124
01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:44,400
Speaker 7: But then to see your words turned into images and

1125
01:00:45,080 --> 01:00:47,640
Speaker 7: that whole thread taken to the next level, that's that's

1126
01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:51,840
Speaker 7: a pretty amazing experience. And also, you know, I know.

1127
01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:52,240
Speaker 8: We're going to.

1128
01:00:54,080 --> 01:00:56,800
Speaker 7: You know, having an opportunity to explain what's going on

1129
01:00:56,880 --> 01:01:02,480
Speaker 7: from the family's perspective, because people, you know, we're two dimensional,

1130
01:01:02,520 --> 01:01:05,040
Speaker 7: who are we We're just there're these people in the background,

1131
01:01:05,120 --> 01:01:08,200
Speaker 7: but we're real people too, and we have feelings, and

1132
01:01:08,320 --> 01:01:12,160
Speaker 7: this whole thing was nothing on the level of what

1133
01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:15,120
Speaker 7: the families who are you know, whose loved ones were

1134
01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:21,160
Speaker 7: you know, murdered by him, But still we were traumatized

1135
01:01:21,160 --> 01:01:23,360
Speaker 7: too in a very profound way.

1136
01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:27,120
Speaker 2: Of course, you're shattered your family, you don't shattered. Yeah,

1137
01:01:27,760 --> 01:01:30,640
Speaker 2: you don't imagine your cousin to be a serial killer,

1138
01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:33,080
Speaker 2: of course no, And that's such a traumatic thing for

1139
01:01:33,120 --> 01:01:35,680
Speaker 2: you too. So this is cathartic for.

1140
01:01:35,680 --> 01:01:38,840
Speaker 3: So many right right, unbelievable.

1141
01:01:39,040 --> 01:01:41,640
Speaker 6: We are so like on the edge of our seats

1142
01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:44,640
Speaker 6: to be hearing your story. And stick around because coming up,

1143
01:01:44,640 --> 01:01:48,000
Speaker 6: we are going to continue this conversation with Edna Cowell,

1144
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:52,600
Speaker 6: Ted Bundy's cousin, and Joe Freed, the executive producer of

1145
01:01:52,640 --> 01:01:57,480
Speaker 6: the upcoming documentary Love Ted Bundy. On Oxygen Keep it

1146
01:01:57,560 --> 01:02:00,560
Speaker 6: Here True Crime Tonight, We're talking true crime all the time.

1147
01:02:11,200 --> 01:02:14,320
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

1148
01:02:14,320 --> 01:02:17,360
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

1149
01:02:17,480 --> 01:02:20,880
Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong and Body. Move in and listen. We have

1150
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:25,360
Speaker 2: two very special guests. We have executive producer Joe Freed.

1151
01:02:26,320 --> 01:02:29,720
Speaker 2: We worked together back in the day with his partner

1152
01:02:29,840 --> 01:02:34,040
Speaker 2: Alison at Marwar Junction, so we used to get into

1153
01:02:34,080 --> 01:02:38,680
Speaker 2: trouble right. We would sometimes, you know, swap production stories

1154
01:02:38,760 --> 01:02:42,240
Speaker 2: over Cheetos and craft service whenever we got the chance.

1155
01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:46,600
Speaker 2: And they're extraordinary producers and they make really important shows.

1156
01:02:47,360 --> 01:02:51,200
Speaker 2: Adam Sampson also a part of their Beloved team. And

1157
01:02:51,640 --> 01:02:54,560
Speaker 2: the Sherry Peppini story that we talked about quite a bit.

1158
01:02:54,680 --> 01:02:58,880
Speaker 2: Shery Peppini is the woman who was accused of basically

1159
01:02:58,960 --> 01:03:02,080
Speaker 2: faking and it was a hoax that she had been

1160
01:03:02,120 --> 01:03:06,600
Speaker 2: abducted and her husband and the country was looking for her.

1161
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:10,200
Speaker 2: So that documentary, if you haven't seen it, please check

1162
01:03:10,200 --> 01:03:15,800
Speaker 2: it out on Hulu and also back by popular demand, Taha,

1163
01:03:16,640 --> 01:03:20,520
Speaker 2: I would be remiss not to share this. We have

1164
01:03:20,760 --> 01:03:25,680
Speaker 2: True Crime and Chill is back by popular demand, and

1165
01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:30,080
Speaker 2: it just seemed wildly appropriate that we have Edna. We

1166
01:03:30,120 --> 01:03:33,400
Speaker 2: have Edna Cromwell here from the documentary that we're all

1167
01:03:33,400 --> 01:03:37,360
Speaker 2: going to be watching this weekend on Oxygen called Loved

1168
01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:42,920
Speaker 2: Ted Bundy Loved Ted Bundy, which really chronicles Edna's personal

1169
01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:48,360
Speaker 2: story and her life as the cousin of one of

1170
01:03:48,400 --> 01:03:51,840
Speaker 2: the more prolific serial killers of our time.

1171
01:03:52,040 --> 01:03:55,040
Speaker 3: So Ted Bundy obviously, so I now, we're so glad

1172
01:03:55,040 --> 01:03:55,320
Speaker 3: you're here.

1173
01:03:56,880 --> 01:03:58,240
Speaker 21: You amazing.

1174
01:03:59,600 --> 01:04:03,520
Speaker 8: You mentioned perfect life. And what that documentary about Sherry

1175
01:04:03,560 --> 01:04:07,120
Speaker 8: Peppini has in common with this one is that Sherry's

1176
01:04:07,600 --> 01:04:11,240
Speaker 8: husband Keith, sort of had an awakening that someone that

1177
01:04:11,320 --> 01:04:13,760
Speaker 8: he loved and trusted was not who she seemed to be.

1178
01:04:13,840 --> 01:04:17,120
Speaker 8: And that really is what Edna's story is all about.

1179
01:04:17,160 --> 01:04:23,120
Speaker 8: And it's about not only the very chilling and dynamic

1180
01:04:23,560 --> 01:04:27,560
Speaker 8: parts of the story, as as Edna's story with Ted

1181
01:04:27,600 --> 01:04:32,760
Speaker 8: Bundy progresses, but it is about that horrifying revelation and

1182
01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:37,520
Speaker 8: then we ask ourselves what would we do? And I

1183
01:04:37,560 --> 01:04:42,040
Speaker 8: think what's what I found so interesting about Edna's story

1184
01:04:42,080 --> 01:04:44,320
Speaker 8: is you almost get to tell parts of her story

1185
01:04:44,360 --> 01:04:48,520
Speaker 8: twice because she lives through her relationship with Ted Bundy,

1186
01:04:48,960 --> 01:04:53,080
Speaker 8: and along the way there may be odd encounters and

1187
01:04:53,240 --> 01:04:56,320
Speaker 8: strange instances. We all have those in our lives with

1188
01:04:56,360 --> 01:04:59,680
Speaker 8: our loved ones. Right, things happen that are strange. And

1189
01:04:59,720 --> 01:05:04,000
Speaker 8: then she finds out the truth about Ted, and she

1190
01:05:04,160 --> 01:05:08,240
Speaker 8: looks back on her life and has to reassess everything

1191
01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:15,520
Speaker 8: and realize that everything, in some ways was a hint

1192
01:05:15,600 --> 01:05:17,840
Speaker 8: about who he was, But there was no way she

1193
01:05:17,880 --> 01:05:21,040
Speaker 8: could have known, because who would imagine the very worst

1194
01:05:21,160 --> 01:05:22,200
Speaker 8: about someone.

1195
01:05:21,920 --> 01:05:25,520
Speaker 4: That you love a beloved cousin. This wasn't he was

1196
01:05:25,560 --> 01:05:29,520
Speaker 4: a beloved cousin in Looking back, did you see any of.

1197
01:05:29,480 --> 01:05:32,880
Speaker 7: Those signs on that well, you know, and that is

1198
01:05:32,920 --> 01:05:36,880
Speaker 7: so true what Joseph said was because at the time,

1199
01:05:37,680 --> 01:05:42,240
Speaker 7: little things maybe pop up, and you notice little bits

1200
01:05:42,280 --> 01:05:45,080
Speaker 7: of behavior. Most of all, he just seemed like the

1201
01:05:45,120 --> 01:05:47,680
Speaker 7: cool cousin, you know, who was really put together and

1202
01:05:48,400 --> 01:05:52,880
Speaker 7: accomplished and doing all these incredible things in politics and

1203
01:05:53,440 --> 01:05:56,840
Speaker 7: for the crime Commission. And then he'd come over and

1204
01:05:56,880 --> 01:05:59,920
Speaker 7: tell us stories. But then there would be little things

1205
01:06:00,080 --> 01:06:03,080
Speaker 7: that that he that would happen that you would go, well,

1206
01:06:03,080 --> 01:06:07,680
Speaker 7: that was a little weird, you know. For example, one

1207
01:06:07,800 --> 01:06:11,720
Speaker 7: night he came over and we were you know, we

1208
01:06:11,720 --> 01:06:14,960
Speaker 7: were starving college students, you know, so we were always

1209
01:06:15,080 --> 01:06:19,400
Speaker 7: especially grateful when somebody showed up with food, and if

1210
01:06:19,440 --> 01:06:21,240
Speaker 7: they had a bottle of wine, that was even better,

1211
01:06:21,320 --> 01:06:25,160
Speaker 7: you know, and Ted would do that on occasion. And

1212
01:06:25,160 --> 01:06:27,680
Speaker 7: one night he came over and he had a bottle

1213
01:06:27,680 --> 01:06:31,640
Speaker 7: of wine and some food, and you know, my roommate

1214
01:06:31,680 --> 01:06:35,200
Speaker 7: Margie was was home that night, and so we all

1215
01:06:35,280 --> 01:06:37,600
Speaker 7: kind of went in the kitchen and cooked dinner, and

1216
01:06:37,640 --> 01:06:43,120
Speaker 7: then afterwards we put on music and we were just

1217
01:06:43,240 --> 01:06:46,880
Speaker 7: dancing around the apartment having a great time. And then

1218
01:06:47,320 --> 01:06:49,000
Speaker 7: one of the songs that came on was kind of

1219
01:06:49,040 --> 01:06:51,520
Speaker 7: a slow song, and I turned around and looked and

1220
01:06:51,920 --> 01:06:55,880
Speaker 7: he and Margie were dancing kind of a slow dance,

1221
01:06:55,920 --> 01:06:59,000
Speaker 7: and she had her head leaning against his shoulder and

1222
01:06:59,080 --> 01:07:03,040
Speaker 7: he and I was really startled because here, this little

1223
01:07:03,120 --> 01:07:06,000
Speaker 7: nice scene was going on, and I went, God, there's

1224
01:07:06,000 --> 01:07:09,200
Speaker 7: something something strange about this scene. And then I looked

1225
01:07:09,240 --> 01:07:13,880
Speaker 7: at him, and he was looking down at her while

1226
01:07:13,920 --> 01:07:19,840
Speaker 7: he was dancing slowly, moving back and forth, and he

1227
01:07:19,880 --> 01:07:23,240
Speaker 7: didn't look like he was having a good time. He

1228
01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:28,120
Speaker 7: had this really intense, mean look on his face, and

1229
01:07:29,640 --> 01:07:35,200
Speaker 7: his jaw was clenched, and he looked really angry. And

1230
01:07:35,240 --> 01:07:38,560
Speaker 7: I remember looking at him and his eyes, which were

1231
01:07:38,960 --> 01:07:43,560
Speaker 7: this bright blue eyes, were black they had And I

1232
01:07:43,680 --> 01:07:47,360
Speaker 7: found out since then that sometimes when people get in

1233
01:07:47,400 --> 01:07:53,280
Speaker 7: the estate like that, their pupils dilates, so but I didn't.

1234
01:07:54,040 --> 01:07:57,760
Speaker 7: I didn't know that, and I remember just going, God,

1235
01:07:57,920 --> 01:08:01,280
Speaker 7: something's going on here, and I, you know, I said, hey, Ted,

1236
01:08:01,440 --> 01:08:03,640
Speaker 7: you know, and I tried to get his attention, and

1237
01:08:04,080 --> 01:08:07,440
Speaker 7: Margie stops and you know, looks up and I said.

1238
01:08:07,200 --> 01:08:08,120
Speaker 3: Ted, are you all right?

1239
01:08:09,400 --> 01:08:13,280
Speaker 7: And he kind of looks at me, and all of

1240
01:08:13,320 --> 01:08:16,639
Speaker 7: a sudden, it was like just a change came over

1241
01:08:16,680 --> 01:08:21,000
Speaker 7: his face and he just started smiling and he goes, oh, yeah, yeah,

1242
01:08:21,040 --> 01:08:26,519
Speaker 7: everything's fine. And I thought, oh, okay, maybe he was

1243
01:08:26,640 --> 01:08:28,479
Speaker 7: just thinking about something. I don't know, you know, you

1244
01:08:28,520 --> 01:08:31,240
Speaker 7: don't know what to think. And then it wasn't more

1245
01:08:31,280 --> 01:08:35,760
Speaker 7: than two or three minutes later that he left. After that,

1246
01:08:36,040 --> 01:08:38,880
Speaker 7: so what do you mean, So what.

1247
01:08:38,880 --> 01:08:40,120
Speaker 3: Do you think it was?

1248
01:08:40,120 --> 01:08:42,400
Speaker 2: Was he thinking he was going to I mean, this

1249
01:08:42,520 --> 01:08:48,639
Speaker 2: is a man who was murdering in large amounts college students,

1250
01:08:48,800 --> 01:08:53,160
Speaker 2: university students, So why didn't he go after a friend

1251
01:08:53,240 --> 01:08:53,719
Speaker 2: of yours?

1252
01:08:53,920 --> 01:08:54,200
Speaker 12: Is there?

1253
01:08:54,640 --> 01:08:55,080
Speaker 14: He was there?

1254
01:08:55,280 --> 01:08:59,559
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean I'm hoping because of the association with

1255
01:08:59,640 --> 01:09:05,200
Speaker 7: me that they were protected because because I really a

1256
01:09:05,280 --> 01:09:09,000
Speaker 7: beloved family member and she was connected to me.

1257
01:09:09,160 --> 01:09:18,280
Speaker 21: I mean, you know that without him And about this, yeah,

1258
01:09:18,840 --> 01:09:24,120
Speaker 21: the fear that had descended on the neighborhoods on the university.

1259
01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:27,280
Speaker 8: At that time because so many girls had disappeared, and

1260
01:09:27,840 --> 01:09:30,240
Speaker 8: when it was at its worst, it was almost like

1261
01:09:30,720 --> 01:09:35,479
Speaker 8: girl every month, and you think about the fear that

1262
01:09:35,640 --> 01:09:39,120
Speaker 8: Edma and her friends were experiencing because these girls were

1263
01:09:39,160 --> 01:09:42,840
Speaker 8: their age and they looked like Edna and her friends.

1264
01:09:43,240 --> 01:09:50,120
Speaker 22: So I can imagine it's honestly, and I think you know,

1265
01:09:50,240 --> 01:09:53,240
Speaker 22: anybody who's listening who's familiar with Ted Bundy, I think

1266
01:09:53,240 --> 01:09:55,439
Speaker 22: it's one of those cases that's been covered from many

1267
01:09:55,560 --> 01:09:58,479
Speaker 22: angles that we all.

1268
01:09:57,800 --> 01:10:02,240
Speaker 2: Devour because it he's so scary, because he seemed so

1269
01:10:02,439 --> 01:10:09,200
Speaker 2: incredibly regular and charismatic and educated, and that is extremely rare.

1270
01:10:09,360 --> 01:10:11,800
Speaker 2: You know, we've talked about this in other cases like

1271
01:10:11,840 --> 01:10:15,840
Speaker 2: the Idaho for for example, where a PhD student took

1272
01:10:15,880 --> 01:10:18,960
Speaker 2: the lives of four students. You know, you know, it

1273
01:10:19,000 --> 01:10:22,040
Speaker 2: didn't really fit the m O, meaning this didn't seem

1274
01:10:22,080 --> 01:10:25,519
Speaker 2: like somebody who was desperate for something. You know, there

1275
01:10:25,560 --> 01:10:29,400
Speaker 2: wasn't even a motive, and Ted Bundy checks that similar box.

1276
01:10:29,439 --> 01:10:30,840
Speaker 2: This is a guy that had a lot of great

1277
01:10:30,840 --> 01:10:33,400
Speaker 2: things going for him. He was a lawyer, you know,

1278
01:10:33,439 --> 01:10:36,200
Speaker 2: he could have been doing all kinds of important things,

1279
01:10:36,280 --> 01:10:39,639
Speaker 2: and he was well liked. He was clearly loved, including

1280
01:10:39,680 --> 01:10:44,559
Speaker 2: by you. What a waste of a life in terms

1281
01:10:44,560 --> 01:10:47,640
Speaker 2: of you know, I don't know, I guess that's what

1282
01:10:47,680 --> 01:10:49,280
Speaker 2: we're always curious about.

1283
01:10:49,600 --> 01:10:52,320
Speaker 7: Right, And how do you protect yourself from someone who

1284
01:10:52,439 --> 01:10:58,439
Speaker 7: is so skilled at at coming across as as someone

1285
01:10:58,479 --> 01:11:03,640
Speaker 7: you would trust and who had who is upstanding citizen,

1286
01:11:04,640 --> 01:11:09,320
Speaker 7: and yet behind that mask there was something completely different.

1287
01:11:09,720 --> 01:11:12,760
Speaker 7: And I got just a little glimpse of it that night,

1288
01:11:12,960 --> 01:11:15,920
Speaker 7: just momentarily. And that's why I think he left so

1289
01:11:16,080 --> 01:11:21,479
Speaker 7: suddenly is because he you know, for just a second,

1290
01:11:21,840 --> 01:11:25,840
Speaker 7: he lost control and I don't think he wanted us

1291
01:11:25,880 --> 01:11:28,200
Speaker 7: to see that. And you know, after he left, we

1292
01:11:28,280 --> 01:11:30,519
Speaker 7: kind of just I kind of just shrugged my shoulders.

1293
01:11:30,560 --> 01:11:33,600
Speaker 7: I mean, Margie didn't even see it, you know, she

1294
01:11:33,840 --> 01:11:37,760
Speaker 7: was looking down. And it just even to this day.

1295
01:11:37,800 --> 01:11:39,799
Speaker 7: I mean, my husband and I talked about it before

1296
01:11:39,840 --> 01:11:42,080
Speaker 7: this call, and that you know, how do you we

1297
01:11:42,160 --> 01:11:44,479
Speaker 7: both talked about it. How do you protect yourself against

1298
01:11:44,520 --> 01:11:45,320
Speaker 7: something like that?

1299
01:11:46,640 --> 01:11:49,600
Speaker 2: How do you do you have any advice for anyone,

1300
01:11:49,920 --> 01:11:52,640
Speaker 2: just you know, a college student. We talk about this

1301
01:11:52,720 --> 01:11:56,240
Speaker 2: often in the spirit of just being productive, not to

1302
01:11:56,320 --> 01:11:59,920
Speaker 2: be scary, but is there something that chester gut?

1303
01:12:00,080 --> 01:12:00,439
Speaker 3: I know it.

1304
01:12:00,600 --> 01:12:03,040
Speaker 2: The core is what we always seem to come back to,

1305
01:12:03,360 --> 01:12:07,280
Speaker 2: is to really listen to your instincts don't shoot shoe

1306
01:12:07,320 --> 01:12:12,160
Speaker 2: it away. But I think because you know your your cousin. Specifically,

1307
01:12:12,880 --> 01:12:18,600
Speaker 2: he prayed on polite girls that were raised to be helpful,

1308
01:12:18,840 --> 01:12:20,240
Speaker 2: and be polite.

1309
01:12:21,360 --> 01:12:23,280
Speaker 7: You hit the nail on the head stuff. I mean,

1310
01:12:23,280 --> 01:12:25,960
Speaker 7: that's one of the things that I always point out

1311
01:12:26,040 --> 01:12:28,519
Speaker 7: is that the nicest girls who offered to help him

1312
01:12:28,640 --> 01:12:32,439
Speaker 7: became his victims. And the only thing that I can

1313
01:12:32,560 --> 01:12:35,800
Speaker 7: pass along is and it's what I've learned from this

1314
01:12:35,880 --> 01:12:40,840
Speaker 7: whole experience, is that you you know, people are so

1315
01:12:41,000 --> 01:12:43,599
Speaker 7: many layers.

1316
01:12:42,479 --> 01:12:44,120
Speaker 3: And we all are that way.

1317
01:12:44,160 --> 01:12:47,200
Speaker 7: We all have parts of us that we don't show

1318
01:12:47,240 --> 01:12:50,920
Speaker 7: to anybody else, and that you just just have to

1319
01:12:51,000 --> 01:12:54,320
Speaker 7: be You have to take the time and not just

1320
01:12:54,600 --> 01:12:58,400
Speaker 7: completely trust somebody. You need to get to know what's

1321
01:12:58,439 --> 01:13:02,479
Speaker 7: behind there and take the time to get to know

1322
01:13:02,560 --> 01:13:06,679
Speaker 7: them before you completely, you know, go off with them.

1323
01:13:07,120 --> 01:13:09,600
Speaker 7: And of course I always noticed, and it happened to

1324
01:13:09,640 --> 01:13:12,839
Speaker 7: me today because I'm an avid walker, but I'm always

1325
01:13:13,400 --> 01:13:16,880
Speaker 7: you know, uh, having situational awareness and being aware of

1326
01:13:16,880 --> 01:13:19,280
Speaker 7: what's around me, and I'm always trying to tell young women,

1327
01:13:19,720 --> 01:13:22,400
Speaker 7: you know, who are wearing EarPods and both their ears

1328
01:13:22,439 --> 01:13:26,280
Speaker 7: and I had this happened today where I just said

1329
01:13:26,320 --> 01:13:29,080
Speaker 7: hi to somebody walking by. She did not hear me.

1330
01:13:29,200 --> 01:13:32,400
Speaker 7: I even got louder, she still did not hear me.

1331
01:13:32,800 --> 01:13:34,960
Speaker 7: How was she going to know that something's coming up

1332
01:13:35,000 --> 01:13:38,639
Speaker 7: behind her? You got to be aware of what's going

1333
01:13:38,680 --> 01:13:40,280
Speaker 7: on around you, you really do.

1334
01:13:40,320 --> 01:13:41,000
Speaker 3: You bring up early.

1335
01:13:41,080 --> 01:13:44,760
Speaker 2: Get loud too, to that point, don't get in the car,

1336
01:13:45,040 --> 01:13:47,960
Speaker 2: scream yell, get as loud as you can and yeah,

1337
01:13:48,240 --> 01:13:51,840
Speaker 2: give them hell. Try no more polite like tell them

1338
01:13:51,880 --> 01:13:54,240
Speaker 2: to f off and part of my friend.

1339
01:13:55,040 --> 01:13:59,200
Speaker 8: Sorry Joe and Sephanie, I think you just said trust

1340
01:13:59,200 --> 01:14:04,320
Speaker 8: your gut. And my longtime collaborator Elizabeth Smart, with whom

1341
01:14:04,360 --> 01:14:08,320
Speaker 8: I've made many different documentaries and movies, that's one of

1342
01:14:08,360 --> 01:14:12,479
Speaker 8: her big messages, which is trust your gut. And even

1343
01:14:12,479 --> 01:14:15,160
Speaker 8: if you think you're going to be embarrassed, or if

1344
01:14:15,200 --> 01:14:19,240
Speaker 8: you're going to look english or you're going to offend someone,

1345
01:14:19,360 --> 01:14:20,840
Speaker 8: always trust your gut no matter what.

1346
01:14:21,520 --> 01:14:21,880
Speaker 3: Smart.

1347
01:14:21,960 --> 01:14:24,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so hard because we're kind of trained to

1348
01:14:24,600 --> 01:14:27,240
Speaker 2: be polite, which makes you not trust your gut sometimes

1349
01:14:27,840 --> 01:14:30,560
Speaker 2: and smile exactly.

1350
01:14:30,840 --> 01:14:34,439
Speaker 4: And that ten continue to write letters to you from

1351
01:14:34,479 --> 01:14:37,840
Speaker 4: death row. Right, you received many letters from him while

1352
01:14:37,840 --> 01:14:40,360
Speaker 4: he was serving time on death row. What was it

1353
01:14:40,439 --> 01:14:42,760
Speaker 4: like we seeing those and how did they affect you

1354
01:14:43,040 --> 01:14:44,679
Speaker 4: in your emotions?

1355
01:14:45,280 --> 01:14:50,960
Speaker 7: Yeah, And actually those really got started getting intense when

1356
01:14:51,800 --> 01:14:55,240
Speaker 7: he got to the point where it was as sure

1357
01:14:55,320 --> 01:14:57,360
Speaker 7: thing that he was not going to walk out of there,

1358
01:14:57,400 --> 01:15:00,160
Speaker 7: that he was going to be executed, and that that's

1359
01:15:00,200 --> 01:15:04,000
Speaker 7: actually when I started writing to him. And I decided

1360
01:15:04,040 --> 01:15:07,160
Speaker 7: at that point, based on the fact that I thought

1361
01:15:07,160 --> 01:15:11,280
Speaker 7: that we still I still might have a special place

1362
01:15:11,400 --> 01:15:15,639
Speaker 7: in his heart and maybe some influence, that I really

1363
01:15:15,680 --> 01:15:19,680
Speaker 7: decided that it was time that somebody went after him.

1364
01:15:19,680 --> 01:15:20,639
Speaker 3: And good for you.

1365
01:15:21,000 --> 01:15:26,639
Speaker 7: I yes, and I, you know, as as Joseph knows,

1366
01:15:26,680 --> 01:15:31,439
Speaker 7: those letters really were, you know, a key part of

1367
01:15:31,479 --> 01:15:35,280
Speaker 7: this whole thing. And I when I sat down with

1368
01:15:35,320 --> 01:15:37,519
Speaker 7: I have a co author, and we started writing back

1369
01:15:37,560 --> 01:15:40,479
Speaker 7: and forth, and we had gotten into writing this book,

1370
01:15:40,520 --> 01:15:42,320
Speaker 7: and it had almost been a year and she finally

1371
01:15:42,360 --> 01:15:46,400
Speaker 7: came and came to where I live, and I brought

1372
01:15:46,400 --> 01:15:50,240
Speaker 7: the letters up from I had them locked up in

1373
01:15:50,360 --> 01:15:54,280
Speaker 7: a box in a cabinet downstairs in the guest room,

1374
01:15:54,320 --> 01:15:56,880
Speaker 7: and then if a guest spent the night, I would

1375
01:15:56,920 --> 01:15:59,120
Speaker 7: take the letters out of there first, because I didn't

1376
01:15:59,120 --> 01:16:02,000
Speaker 7: want them in the room at the same same place

1377
01:16:02,200 --> 01:16:02,799
Speaker 7: as those.

1378
01:16:02,680 --> 01:16:07,280
Speaker 2: Letters oh yeah, smart, yeah, those creepy yeah yeah.

1379
01:16:07,400 --> 01:16:10,320
Speaker 7: I just felt they still had, you know, a lot

1380
01:16:10,360 --> 01:16:15,759
Speaker 7: of power. But the point was that I was really

1381
01:16:15,800 --> 01:16:19,360
Speaker 7: felt strongly about these families that did not have answers,

1382
01:16:19,439 --> 01:16:22,720
Speaker 7: and some of their daughters remains still have not been

1383
01:16:22,760 --> 01:16:23,360
Speaker 7: found to this.

1384
01:16:23,600 --> 01:16:29,320
Speaker 4: He was using those as as leverage, right, he was, right, he.

1385
01:16:29,479 --> 01:16:33,280
Speaker 7: Was and and so that's that's these letters. And so

1386
01:16:33,479 --> 01:16:36,960
Speaker 7: my co author, Megan Atkinson, I brought those out and

1387
01:16:37,000 --> 01:16:40,080
Speaker 7: of course I couldn't touch them with my bare hands.

1388
01:16:40,880 --> 01:16:45,000
Speaker 7: I have gloves, and.

1389
01:16:46,479 --> 01:16:50,960
Speaker 3: These letters, oh my goodness.

1390
01:16:51,240 --> 01:16:56,840
Speaker 7: They were. They made huge, a huge impression on me,

1391
01:16:58,000 --> 01:17:00,639
Speaker 7: and honestly, I didn't know what to do with them,

1392
01:17:00,680 --> 01:17:03,479
Speaker 7: so I just locked them up and hit them.

1393
01:17:04,280 --> 01:17:06,400
Speaker 4: Well, we're going to get to are we gonna? Are

1394
01:17:06,439 --> 01:17:07,960
Speaker 4: we going to be able to hear from these letters?

1395
01:17:08,000 --> 01:17:11,439
Speaker 4: I'm assuming with the name of this great documentary, love

1396
01:17:11,560 --> 01:17:14,960
Speaker 4: Ted Bundy, that many of these letters will be explored.

1397
01:17:15,040 --> 01:17:17,679
Speaker 3: Is that correct, Joseph, it is.

1398
01:17:17,600 --> 01:17:20,800
Speaker 8: That's I mean, that's the inspiration behind the title of

1399
01:17:20,840 --> 01:17:24,840
Speaker 8: the documentary, because Ted always signed his letters to Edna

1400
01:17:25,200 --> 01:17:25,800
Speaker 8: love Ted.

1401
01:17:26,280 --> 01:17:33,120
Speaker 4: Oh goodness, well, Joseph, I'm sorry, Joseph, Edna, thank you

1402
01:17:33,240 --> 01:17:36,000
Speaker 4: so much for joining us and being here sharing this

1403
01:17:36,120 --> 01:17:41,840
Speaker 4: deeply personal story. Love Ted Bundy premieres this Sunday, February

1404
01:17:41,880 --> 01:17:45,360
Speaker 4: fifteenth on Oxygen. Be sure to tune in and Joseph

1405
01:17:45,720 --> 01:17:48,000
Speaker 4: will also be keeping an eye out for your upcoming

1406
01:17:48,040 --> 01:17:51,599
Speaker 4: iHeart podcast hosted by Elizabeth Smart Keep it right here,

1407
01:17:51,680 --> 01:17:53,559
Speaker 4: True You've got more to get into.

1408
01:17:53,560 --> 01:17:53,800
Speaker 3: Thanks.

1409
01:18:05,040 --> 01:18:08,240
Speaker 2: Welcome back to true Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

1410
01:18:08,280 --> 01:18:11,000
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Steph He with Courtney

1411
01:18:11,160 --> 01:18:14,479
Speaker 2: and Body and listen. We have some talkbacks and we

1412
01:18:14,560 --> 01:18:19,360
Speaker 2: have some swag chat to get through. According to Taha,

1413
01:18:19,680 --> 01:18:24,120
Speaker 2: we are breaking down the phone banks. The phones are

1414
01:18:24,240 --> 01:18:27,080
Speaker 2: ringing off the hook for sweatshirts and swag.

1415
01:18:27,320 --> 01:18:29,720
Speaker 3: I'm so excited. I think that's amazing.

1416
01:18:30,240 --> 01:18:34,120
Speaker 2: So in Taha, you're loving it.

1417
01:18:34,320 --> 01:18:35,640
Speaker 3: Give us let's go.

1418
01:18:36,280 --> 01:18:39,000
Speaker 5: I won't go into too many details.

1419
01:18:38,600 --> 01:18:39,040
Speaker 12: Please don't.

1420
01:18:39,280 --> 01:18:41,439
Speaker 11: You can't get too crazy detail. We're not going to

1421
01:18:41,520 --> 01:18:45,439
Speaker 11: go We'll save that for you know something. In this case,

1422
01:18:45,439 --> 01:18:48,080
Speaker 11: We're just going to keep it really surface. And we

1423
01:18:48,160 --> 01:18:50,800
Speaker 11: have gotten a lot of people who have reached out

1424
01:18:50,840 --> 01:18:55,960
Speaker 11: to us with amazing opinions and requests for swag. We're

1425
01:18:56,080 --> 01:18:59,080
Speaker 11: compiling lists. We've got it all nice and organized, and

1426
01:18:59,160 --> 01:19:01,599
Speaker 11: we are in the process of shipping things out.

1427
01:19:01,880 --> 01:19:05,679
Speaker 4: Really, but we're going to in the I don't even

1428
01:19:05,720 --> 01:19:06,599
Speaker 4: have mine yet.

1429
01:19:07,320 --> 01:19:08,880
Speaker 12: You're in that list too, You're.

1430
01:19:10,320 --> 01:19:13,760
Speaker 3: We were putting that, we were putting listeners first. How

1431
01:19:13,880 --> 01:19:15,920
Speaker 3: dare you? That was my decision? Do you think?

1432
01:19:16,160 --> 01:19:16,240
Speaker 9: No?

1433
01:19:16,320 --> 01:19:16,720
Speaker 3: I like that.

1434
01:19:17,040 --> 01:19:22,679
Speaker 4: It's so exciting that people are reaching out. Honestly, I know.

1435
01:19:22,720 --> 01:19:23,720
Speaker 3: I'm so excited too.

1436
01:19:24,360 --> 01:19:27,200
Speaker 11: There's a lot of love for everyone but the team

1437
01:19:27,479 --> 01:19:30,759
Speaker 11: the show. So we we love hearing the positive feedback

1438
01:19:30,760 --> 01:19:33,280
Speaker 11: that people have been leaving when requesting it.

1439
01:19:33,360 --> 01:19:34,800
Speaker 5: So not that we.

1440
01:19:34,760 --> 01:19:37,040
Speaker 3: Also have mediums. We have mediums.

1441
01:19:37,040 --> 01:19:40,120
Speaker 2: Also, I was always do not just large extra large.

1442
01:19:40,479 --> 01:19:45,280
Speaker 2: We also have mediums. So I get corrected. Yeah, that's good.

1443
01:19:45,360 --> 01:19:48,479
Speaker 2: Oh I misspoke, I miss nice? How do you listen?

1444
01:19:48,520 --> 01:19:52,680
Speaker 2: We're running high stakes, you know, boiler room swag. We

1445
01:19:53,160 --> 01:19:57,280
Speaker 2: really are a swetch. We are like went in doubt listen, teams.

1446
01:19:59,080 --> 01:20:02,880
Speaker 2: I have never passed the buffet that I didn't go on.

1447
01:20:03,920 --> 01:20:05,280
Speaker 3: I love swag.

1448
01:20:05,640 --> 01:20:08,720
Speaker 2: There is no bag ever wasted on me that has

1449
01:20:08,800 --> 01:20:10,400
Speaker 2: somebody's company logo on it.

1450
01:20:11,320 --> 01:20:14,040
Speaker 3: I just love me a mug. So yeah, I think

1451
01:20:14,080 --> 01:20:16,120
Speaker 3: it's like it feels really fun. And it's like a

1452
01:20:16,120 --> 01:20:19,719
Speaker 3: little Christmas. It's like a little holiday after the holiday.

1453
01:20:20,000 --> 01:20:22,920
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, they're hand packed, like talk to Whitney.

1454
01:20:22,960 --> 01:20:25,720
Speaker 11: Whitney's involved with sending them out, and of course every

1455
01:20:25,720 --> 01:20:27,760
Speaker 11: time I FaceTime with her, she's wearing it to show

1456
01:20:27,760 --> 01:20:28,040
Speaker 11: it off.

1457
01:20:28,080 --> 01:20:29,759
Speaker 12: I'm like, okay, when the mind comes.

1458
01:20:29,760 --> 01:20:32,439
Speaker 2: The only one, the only person who has the swag

1459
01:20:32,520 --> 01:20:33,280
Speaker 2: is Whitney.

1460
01:20:33,880 --> 01:20:36,920
Speaker 3: But literally today I see it.

1461
01:20:37,000 --> 01:20:37,360
Speaker 5: I see it.

1462
01:20:38,600 --> 01:20:41,040
Speaker 12: It's it, but it's.

1463
01:20:40,840 --> 01:20:43,599
Speaker 3: Going out, It's happening real time.

1464
01:20:43,760 --> 01:20:48,000
Speaker 2: It's like a Valentine's Day kiss, sending out Valentine's Day.

1465
01:20:47,880 --> 01:20:51,000
Speaker 11: Love Now Quity and during the break had a really

1466
01:20:51,000 --> 01:20:55,000
Speaker 11: smart idea of how we decide what the next phase?

1467
01:20:55,080 --> 01:20:58,920
Speaker 11: Who gets the next future? You know sweatshirt right, because

1468
01:20:58,920 --> 01:21:00,240
Speaker 11: it went out pretty quick.

1469
01:21:00,160 --> 01:21:00,960
Speaker 5: We're going to run out.

1470
01:21:01,120 --> 01:21:03,599
Speaker 11: And I think it was a tie in with True

1471
01:21:03,680 --> 01:21:06,679
Speaker 11: Crime and Chill because, as you guys heard the other day,

1472
01:21:06,720 --> 01:21:09,360
Speaker 11: someone said, what happened to True Crime and Chill? Well,

1473
01:21:09,680 --> 01:21:12,640
Speaker 11: we're talking about bringing it back, and this is the person.

1474
01:21:12,520 --> 01:21:14,880
Speaker 3: I was talking about. Are we talking about who's talking

1475
01:21:14,920 --> 01:21:15,599
Speaker 3: about it exactly?

1476
01:21:15,680 --> 01:21:15,840
Speaker 21: Well?

1477
01:21:16,120 --> 01:21:19,920
Speaker 6: Somebody we had the d M and this darling woman.

1478
01:21:25,760 --> 01:21:28,800
Speaker 2: She finally know what's doing on what Night, and I

1479
01:21:28,960 --> 01:21:31,400
Speaker 2: decided to change it all up, which is true, which

1480
01:21:31,439 --> 01:21:34,680
Speaker 2: is Christmas break? It usually was I get listen, I

1481
01:21:34,760 --> 01:21:37,320
Speaker 2: get a c after three weeks, let's change it up.

1482
01:21:38,720 --> 01:21:42,479
Speaker 2: So but it seems like it was. It's back by

1483
01:21:42,680 --> 01:21:46,160
Speaker 2: popular demand, and we will. We can't concede. We have

1484
01:21:46,240 --> 01:21:48,840
Speaker 2: to concede to the listeners. Well, so the first.

1485
01:21:48,560 --> 01:21:52,679
Speaker 4: One is going to be love Ted Bundy Right comes

1486
01:21:52,680 --> 01:21:55,679
Speaker 4: out Sunday on the Oxygen Network. I don't have this network.

1487
01:21:55,720 --> 01:21:57,920
Speaker 4: I have to I have to go buy it. I'm

1488
01:21:57,960 --> 01:21:59,479
Speaker 4: going to because I really want to watch this, this

1489
01:21:59,560 --> 01:22:03,080
Speaker 4: document and that was so charming, wasn't she so charming?

1490
01:22:03,320 --> 01:22:05,720
Speaker 4: And by the way, can we just say, like I

1491
01:22:05,760 --> 01:22:07,439
Speaker 4: feel like she was telling us, like she was in

1492
01:22:07,479 --> 01:22:12,040
Speaker 4: this car with this and like this moment happened. I

1493
01:22:12,080 --> 01:22:15,639
Speaker 4: feel like now Edna, who by the way, was so

1494
01:22:15,760 --> 01:22:19,280
Speaker 4: kind and gracious with her time, she found her voice

1495
01:22:20,200 --> 01:22:22,519
Speaker 4: and I can feel that from her, you know what

1496
01:22:22,560 --> 01:22:25,160
Speaker 4: I mean, Like, yeah, she was kind of living under

1497
01:22:25,200 --> 01:22:27,240
Speaker 4: the thumb of this, and I feel like now she

1498
01:22:27,400 --> 01:22:28,000
Speaker 4: has her voice.

1499
01:22:28,040 --> 01:22:28,760
Speaker 3: I'm excited to see.

1500
01:22:28,760 --> 01:22:31,760
Speaker 4: It's gonna be our first our comeback moment with true

1501
01:22:31,800 --> 01:22:32,880
Speaker 4: crime and Chill right.

1502
01:22:33,120 --> 01:22:35,920
Speaker 3: Exactly what saying. Is that what we're saying, We're gonna

1503
01:22:35,960 --> 01:22:36,719
Speaker 3: call it a comeback.

1504
01:22:36,960 --> 01:22:41,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're already around and love listen, everybody loves a comeback.

1505
01:22:41,360 --> 01:22:48,280
Speaker 2: I love myself included. Yes, the day she was the Pyrotechnics.

1506
01:22:48,360 --> 01:22:52,200
Speaker 4: Okay, give people a minute because people might need to

1507
01:22:52,360 --> 01:22:53,320
Speaker 4: like find it.

1508
01:22:53,200 --> 01:22:57,599
Speaker 11: And oxygen oxygen the network.

1509
01:22:57,680 --> 01:22:59,519
Speaker 12: And then also because we haven't.

1510
01:22:59,320 --> 01:23:02,880
Speaker 11: Done true crime, and we haven't, there's a lot going on,

1511
01:23:03,000 --> 01:23:04,479
Speaker 11: so we'll figure out a way to score.

1512
01:23:04,479 --> 01:23:06,559
Speaker 2: There's a lot of things to watch, Like I got

1513
01:23:06,680 --> 01:23:09,679
Speaker 2: Nancy Guthrie coverage twenty four to seven on my TV.

1514
01:23:10,400 --> 01:23:11,080
Speaker 3: I'm gonna have to.

1515
01:23:11,040 --> 01:23:14,360
Speaker 2: Stop it and watch this stuff that I've been I

1516
01:23:14,400 --> 01:23:17,559
Speaker 2: can't say it, but like you can only imagine it

1517
01:23:17,640 --> 01:23:21,240
Speaker 2: for so long, you know, like your brain almost disconnects.

1518
01:23:21,240 --> 01:23:24,000
Speaker 2: By the time I sit with you, guys, I've already

1519
01:23:24,040 --> 01:23:26,720
Speaker 2: lost my mind. I don't know my watching it so

1520
01:23:26,920 --> 01:23:30,080
Speaker 2: much of it that I'm like, I've already my brain

1521
01:23:30,120 --> 01:23:33,040
Speaker 2: has already collapsed. Then I've had to pull it back together.

1522
01:23:33,600 --> 01:23:36,120
Speaker 2: And then right around now, I get like the church kickles,

1523
01:23:36,560 --> 01:23:39,320
Speaker 2: which is not inappropriate. It's just because I get it

1524
01:23:39,360 --> 01:23:43,240
Speaker 2: from being nervous for so so much tension around it

1525
01:23:43,320 --> 01:23:45,520
Speaker 2: and pent up like concern.

1526
01:23:45,840 --> 01:23:48,160
Speaker 11: Yeah, I feel like that. That's why we hit with

1527
01:23:48,280 --> 01:23:49,240
Speaker 11: negative news.

1528
01:23:49,320 --> 01:23:52,559
Speaker 4: I really appreciate this show because it's like an outlet

1529
01:23:52,640 --> 01:23:55,800
Speaker 4: number one to get all the cacocta out of my

1530
01:23:55,840 --> 01:23:59,320
Speaker 4: system from the day. And I know, I know that

1531
01:23:59,400 --> 01:24:02,200
Speaker 4: I'm not going crazy. Other people are feeling it too.

1532
01:24:02,439 --> 01:24:04,479
Speaker 4: You guys were in it together, by the way.

1533
01:24:05,400 --> 01:24:07,960
Speaker 3: The talkback, yeah, I love it the talkbacks.

1534
01:24:07,960 --> 01:24:09,720
Speaker 11: I just say, when the three of you start at

1535
01:24:09,720 --> 01:24:11,599
Speaker 11: the top of the show, I can see all that

1536
01:24:11,680 --> 01:24:14,040
Speaker 11: pent up energy from all day and it's like everybody,

1537
01:24:14,600 --> 01:24:20,040
Speaker 11: it's like wrangling cats because everybody's like, let's get it together.

1538
01:24:20,200 --> 01:24:24,519
Speaker 11: We have like ten minutes before the show.

1539
01:24:26,960 --> 01:24:28,960
Speaker 5: Second would change it for.

1540
01:24:28,920 --> 01:24:33,559
Speaker 4: A minute, all right, I would have it the other way.

1541
01:24:33,840 --> 01:24:35,599
Speaker 12: Let's go to a talkback.

1542
01:24:36,200 --> 01:24:41,000
Speaker 20: I beautiful humans, this is Rose from Mecula, California. I've

1543
01:24:41,120 --> 01:24:43,960
Speaker 20: just calling in to let you know how much I

1544
01:24:44,000 --> 01:24:48,960
Speaker 20: love your podcast and listening to all of you. Your

1545
01:24:49,040 --> 01:24:53,240
Speaker 20: encouragement for one another and your support or one another

1546
01:24:53,360 --> 01:24:54,320
Speaker 20: is so encouraging.

1547
01:24:55,600 --> 01:24:59,439
Speaker 4: Oh that's so hard, and you know it's easy. It's

1548
01:24:59,560 --> 01:25:02,760
Speaker 4: you know, I've always lived through this, this thing. It's

1549
01:25:02,840 --> 01:25:07,520
Speaker 4: it takes strength to be gentle and kind and caring.

1550
01:25:07,200 --> 01:25:07,880
Speaker 3: For other people.

1551
01:25:08,240 --> 01:25:11,800
Speaker 4: And it's really easy to be mean and spiteful and

1552
01:25:11,920 --> 01:25:14,960
Speaker 4: jealous and you know whatnot. Yeah, I need to take

1553
01:25:15,080 --> 01:25:18,160
Speaker 4: strength or to lift up other women. And I think

1554
01:25:18,160 --> 01:25:22,160
Speaker 4: that we as women, we are very strong. Let's start

1555
01:25:22,240 --> 01:25:25,200
Speaker 4: out and like it, lift other women up. And this

1556
01:25:25,240 --> 01:25:28,439
Speaker 4: is our village and anyway, it's allfu shit, so true,

1557
01:25:28,680 --> 01:25:30,160
Speaker 4: but it's so but it really works.

1558
01:25:30,200 --> 01:25:32,240
Speaker 2: You guys are so good to me, and it makes

1559
01:25:32,400 --> 01:25:34,080
Speaker 2: you know, like it kind of makes you feel like

1560
01:25:34,240 --> 01:25:36,280
Speaker 2: you can fight the fight right its.

1561
01:25:36,200 --> 01:25:39,880
Speaker 4: River is how I feel like, you know well, and

1562
01:25:39,920 --> 01:25:42,640
Speaker 4: it's also so wonderful if one of us, you know,

1563
01:25:42,680 --> 01:25:46,720
Speaker 4: if the case is hitting us particularly hard and need

1564
01:25:46,760 --> 01:25:49,240
Speaker 4: to either step back or whatever it is that at

1565
01:25:49,320 --> 01:25:52,599
Speaker 4: least for me knowing you too are here there, it's

1566
01:25:52,640 --> 01:25:55,479
Speaker 4: just it's a comfort and a security and it's very

1567
01:25:56,080 --> 01:25:58,519
Speaker 4: it's very cool, and it is like I kind of

1568
01:25:58,560 --> 01:26:01,559
Speaker 4: crashed out a little bit the Lisa Phillips interview because

1569
01:26:01,560 --> 01:26:06,800
Speaker 4: it was just very it was so good you and

1570
01:26:07,080 --> 01:26:10,160
Speaker 4: you guys kind of like jumped in and like rescued me.

1571
01:26:10,280 --> 01:26:10,559
Speaker 3: Kind of.

1572
01:26:10,560 --> 01:26:13,879
Speaker 4: That's how I feel. Yeah, And so what you're hearing

1573
01:26:13,960 --> 01:26:18,080
Speaker 4: is very authentic, right, and we're learning stuff together, you know.

1574
01:26:18,360 --> 01:26:21,080
Speaker 4: So yeah, thanks for being a part of our club.

1575
01:26:21,320 --> 01:26:22,599
Speaker 3: Yes, I love te Mechila.

1576
01:26:22,640 --> 01:26:25,400
Speaker 11: By the way, thank you rose from megaphone. Well how

1577
01:26:25,400 --> 01:26:28,200
Speaker 11: about another one. Here's one that's a topic that came

1578
01:26:28,280 --> 01:26:31,080
Speaker 11: up a lot about AI. So let's tell you this one.

1579
01:26:31,520 --> 01:26:32,719
Speaker 3: Hi, ladies in Taha.

1580
01:26:32,800 --> 01:26:35,200
Speaker 23: This is Liz calling from Washington. I wanted to give

1581
01:26:35,200 --> 01:26:38,599
Speaker 23: my opinion on AI. I personally am a.

1582
01:26:38,479 --> 01:26:39,479
Speaker 3: Bit wary of it.

1583
01:26:39,560 --> 01:26:40,599
Speaker 8: I think it's a bit scary.

1584
01:26:40,680 --> 01:26:43,080
Speaker 23: There's a lot of cool, good things that I think

1585
01:26:43,120 --> 01:26:45,719
Speaker 23: could come of it, but I'm really more interested to see,

1586
01:26:46,000 --> 01:26:49,200
Speaker 23: specifically in the true crime sphere, where AI is going

1587
01:26:49,240 --> 01:26:52,400
Speaker 23: to either start creating alibis or getting people out of

1588
01:26:52,439 --> 01:26:54,600
Speaker 23: them with these videos that a lot of us do

1589
01:26:54,640 --> 01:26:57,080
Speaker 23: a deep fake for, or even worse, what could get

1590
01:26:57,080 --> 01:26:58,599
Speaker 23: people like in trouble.

1591
01:26:59,160 --> 01:26:59,320
Speaker 12: Oh?

1592
01:26:59,400 --> 01:27:01,880
Speaker 3: Yes, this all I think I've talked about this.

1593
01:27:02,240 --> 01:27:06,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, what about if AI puts me robin a bank?

1594
01:27:07,080 --> 01:27:07,400
Speaker 12: Yeah?

1595
01:27:07,560 --> 01:27:08,160
Speaker 3: Do you know what I mean?

1596
01:27:08,240 --> 01:27:10,640
Speaker 2: And I'm just sitting at home and crocheting like I

1597
01:27:10,640 --> 01:27:11,439
Speaker 2: got an alibi?

1598
01:27:11,960 --> 01:27:12,599
Speaker 4: Do you know what I mean?

1599
01:27:12,920 --> 01:27:16,000
Speaker 2: And now somebody just thinking to me, like kicks your

1600
01:27:16,040 --> 01:27:20,360
Speaker 2: door down and comes guns of blazing and starts cutting

1601
01:27:20,439 --> 01:27:24,120
Speaker 2: up your cushions and thrashing my underwear and the spirit

1602
01:27:24,320 --> 01:27:28,240
Speaker 2: of security exactly, Like that's what it would look like.

1603
01:27:28,240 --> 01:27:32,160
Speaker 3: They're turning drawers over. Yeah, I think that's a real thing.

1604
01:27:32,200 --> 01:27:33,800
Speaker 2: And you know, listen, even what we're seeing now with

1605
01:27:33,840 --> 01:27:36,559
Speaker 2: the Nancy Guthrie case and looking at Ringham footage or

1606
01:27:36,640 --> 01:27:40,120
Speaker 2: Nest footage, that could all be you know, pretty quickly.

1607
01:27:41,800 --> 01:27:42,080
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1608
01:27:42,240 --> 01:27:44,599
Speaker 2: I don't even want to say it, but I don't

1609
01:27:44,640 --> 01:27:46,720
Speaker 2: know what the answer is there other than it just

1610
01:27:46,960 --> 01:27:49,720
Speaker 2: is like another layer you can you know, finally we

1611
01:27:49,840 --> 01:27:52,800
Speaker 2: have video of everything. Now it's like, oh, well, we

1612
01:27:52,800 --> 01:27:55,800
Speaker 2: can't use that because now it can be altered. You know,

1613
01:27:55,960 --> 01:27:58,400
Speaker 2: there's this chicken and an egg thing that we can't

1614
01:27:58,439 --> 01:27:59,120
Speaker 2: seem to get.

1615
01:27:59,000 --> 01:28:00,200
Speaker 3: Out of, right.

1616
01:28:00,320 --> 01:28:02,920
Speaker 11: I mean, I'm hoping they're like the experts out there

1617
01:28:02,960 --> 01:28:05,479
Speaker 11: that they can really analyze each piece, because that is

1618
01:28:05,479 --> 01:28:08,240
Speaker 11: a constant concern I have as well, that like, you know,

1619
01:28:08,360 --> 01:28:10,599
Speaker 11: someone's going to take my image and put it in

1620
01:28:10,600 --> 01:28:13,559
Speaker 11: some other place. But do you know body, like I mean,

1621
01:28:13,600 --> 01:28:15,320
Speaker 11: I don't know how much you know in the AI world,

1622
01:28:15,479 --> 01:28:18,120
Speaker 11: like they can look at it and tell at this

1623
01:28:18,240 --> 01:28:19,360
Speaker 11: point if something is.

1624
01:28:19,600 --> 01:28:22,960
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a lot of software that will analyze

1625
01:28:23,040 --> 01:28:27,479
Speaker 2: pictures and videos to look for like hallmarks of AI,

1626
01:28:27,560 --> 01:28:31,680
Speaker 2: and most AI that the public has access to watermarks,

1627
01:28:31,880 --> 01:28:34,360
Speaker 2: you know those videos in some way, but those can

1628
01:28:34,400 --> 01:28:36,880
Speaker 2: all be kind of like cropped out, you know what

1629
01:28:36,880 --> 01:28:38,840
Speaker 2: I mean, these watermarks and whatnot, they can all be

1630
01:28:38,920 --> 01:28:41,839
Speaker 2: kind of like cropped out of the final you know release.

1631
01:28:42,760 --> 01:28:46,400
Speaker 4: Uh. But there are deep fake detectors out there. But

1632
01:28:46,479 --> 01:28:50,719
Speaker 4: as AI advances, this deep fake stuff has to advance too.

1633
01:28:51,080 --> 01:28:54,000
Speaker 4: I mean, right, we have to put the brakes on

1634
01:28:54,080 --> 01:28:57,080
Speaker 4: a little bit. It's it's it's I feel it's advancing

1635
01:28:57,680 --> 01:29:02,240
Speaker 4: too quickly. Yeah, you know from what months ago?

1636
01:29:02,640 --> 01:29:04,800
Speaker 11: Yeah, just from the time that we've all worked together,

1637
01:29:05,120 --> 01:29:06,800
Speaker 11: Like I've seen it go from like oh that looks

1638
01:29:06,800 --> 01:29:09,120
Speaker 11: a little fake, or I see seven fingers, and now

1639
01:29:09,160 --> 01:29:10,439
Speaker 11: it's like it's starting to look.

1640
01:29:10,560 --> 01:29:12,639
Speaker 2: As soon as I fell from that bunny that bunny

1641
01:29:12,680 --> 01:29:14,840
Speaker 2: video on the trampoline, I knew you were cooked. As

1642
01:29:14,840 --> 01:29:17,280
Speaker 2: a society whole video is amazing.

1643
01:29:18,439 --> 01:29:20,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, and I mean I saw and recently and to

1644
01:29:21,000 --> 01:29:23,920
Speaker 6: your point, body, it can be so cropped. I watched

1645
01:29:24,080 --> 01:29:26,200
Speaker 6: to the end and at the very end of it

1646
01:29:26,200 --> 01:29:28,920
Speaker 6: it said this was made by AI and I'm sitting

1647
01:29:28,920 --> 01:29:31,040
Speaker 6: there crying. I forget it was you know, a soldier

1648
01:29:31,080 --> 01:29:32,280
Speaker 6: comes home and sees his dog.

1649
01:29:32,720 --> 01:29:33,439
Speaker 12: It's really.

1650
01:29:34,880 --> 01:29:37,560
Speaker 2: The soldiers coming home seeing their dogs.

1651
01:29:37,200 --> 01:29:40,680
Speaker 3: Though, is I love the heart. Yeah, when they come

1652
01:29:40,720 --> 01:29:49,600
Speaker 3: out of the box at the it was so realistic.

1653
01:29:50,520 --> 01:29:52,800
Speaker 4: We're coming home and seeing their baby for the first time,

1654
01:29:54,160 --> 01:29:58,080
Speaker 4: for the first time the military, during the military, I

1655
01:29:58,120 --> 01:29:58,880
Speaker 4: do love it hard.

1656
01:29:58,920 --> 01:30:00,559
Speaker 3: You can't handle it actually.

1657
01:30:01,000 --> 01:30:03,080
Speaker 4: You know what though, I'm okay with those being AI

1658
01:30:03,200 --> 01:30:05,559
Speaker 4: because they're good, you know what I mean, Like those are,

1659
01:30:06,160 --> 01:30:09,559
Speaker 4: but I'm not okay with like, yeah, are they gonna

1660
01:30:09,560 --> 01:30:11,200
Speaker 4: put me robbing a bank?

1661
01:30:11,360 --> 01:30:14,280
Speaker 2: I don't want to, you know, or what if you're

1662
01:30:14,479 --> 01:30:18,280
Speaker 2: actual alibi, that would be the actual alibi or the

1663
01:30:18,400 --> 01:30:23,080
Speaker 2: video that would release you from allegations. Now that's being

1664
01:30:23,120 --> 01:30:25,519
Speaker 2: brought into question because they're like, well, I don't know

1665
01:30:25,640 --> 01:30:30,240
Speaker 2: that that looks like just AI. So you know, we're

1666
01:30:30,280 --> 01:30:33,080
Speaker 2: kind of getting into this weird gray space yet again.

1667
01:30:33,320 --> 01:30:33,800
Speaker 3: That's true.

1668
01:30:33,840 --> 01:30:38,720
Speaker 4: And also the you know, the victimization of the nudes

1669
01:30:39,400 --> 01:30:43,519
Speaker 4: that are coming out of people that you know they're

1670
01:30:43,520 --> 01:30:47,879
Speaker 4: being victimized by these fake nudes that are right.

1671
01:30:49,120 --> 01:30:51,920
Speaker 3: High school in Los Angeles. Yeah, that was what happens.

1672
01:30:52,120 --> 01:30:56,000
Speaker 2: By the way, they'll get real, real time behind bars

1673
01:30:56,000 --> 01:30:56,479
Speaker 2: for that.

1674
01:30:56,720 --> 01:30:59,759
Speaker 3: GROC, which is x's ai. That's like peace.

1675
01:31:00,680 --> 01:31:04,360
Speaker 4: People were like tweeting photos of like, you know, people

1676
01:31:04,400 --> 01:31:07,679
Speaker 4: they know in their life or their coworkers or even

1677
01:31:07,760 --> 01:31:12,240
Speaker 4: like celebrities, saying, remove the clothing from you know, this person,

1678
01:31:12,479 --> 01:31:15,880
Speaker 4: and then X the Groc would put it in, you know,

1679
01:31:15,960 --> 01:31:19,720
Speaker 4: either scantily, you know, like a thong or something and

1680
01:31:19,760 --> 01:31:23,639
Speaker 4: then post the here you go, you know. Yeah, And

1681
01:31:23,680 --> 01:31:26,760
Speaker 4: I mean there was outrage.

1682
01:31:26,120 --> 01:31:28,920
Speaker 6: About outrage, and there was there was a woman I

1683
01:31:28,960 --> 01:31:31,720
Speaker 6: was reading an article and this had happened to her,

1684
01:31:31,880 --> 01:31:35,840
Speaker 6: and she said, it's not my this is fake. It's

1685
01:31:35,880 --> 01:31:39,400
Speaker 6: not my body, but boy, it even it looked to

1686
01:31:39,560 --> 01:31:40,400
Speaker 6: me like.

1687
01:31:40,320 --> 01:31:43,320
Speaker 4: It could be my body. It's that it's that like

1688
01:31:43,560 --> 01:31:49,160
Speaker 4: realistic and that's I do think that they retooled it.

1689
01:31:49,600 --> 01:31:51,760
Speaker 4: I haven't checked in like a week or two, but

1690
01:31:52,200 --> 01:31:54,719
Speaker 4: I do think they retooled it so that GROC doesn't

1691
01:31:54,720 --> 01:31:59,799
Speaker 4: do that anymore. But it was an issue for a while.

1692
01:32:00,520 --> 01:32:04,719
Speaker 4: It was happening to a lot of women on the platform.

1693
01:32:04,800 --> 01:32:06,639
Speaker 4: They were getting really like they were they were having

1694
01:32:06,680 --> 01:32:10,479
Speaker 4: like discussions with people maybe even disagreeing, so instead of

1695
01:32:10,520 --> 01:32:14,080
Speaker 4: having the argument and using your words. People were like, well,

1696
01:32:14,080 --> 01:32:17,759
Speaker 4: here here's your picture in a thong, you know or something.

1697
01:32:18,120 --> 01:32:20,160
Speaker 12: Yeah, it was.

1698
01:32:20,280 --> 01:32:21,120
Speaker 3: It was really bad.

1699
01:32:22,360 --> 01:32:25,800
Speaker 2: Careful, careful because they are throwing the book at people too.

1700
01:32:26,240 --> 01:32:29,800
Speaker 2: When caught, they will be the book will be thrown

1701
01:32:29,840 --> 01:32:31,360
Speaker 2: at them as should.

1702
01:32:32,760 --> 01:32:35,280
Speaker 3: By the way, we have such little time.

1703
01:32:35,439 --> 01:32:37,559
Speaker 6: But you had mentioned, you know, it's like a little

1704
01:32:37,640 --> 01:32:42,080
Speaker 6: Valentine's Day, you know, but Valentine's Day is upon us.

1705
01:32:42,120 --> 01:32:47,080
Speaker 3: It's this Saturday, guys, Valentine's Day. Valentine's Day.

1706
01:32:47,320 --> 01:32:49,479
Speaker 5: Everybody Valentine's Day.

1707
01:32:50,640 --> 01:32:54,360
Speaker 4: I know somebody to say, I love you.

1708
01:32:55,520 --> 01:33:00,280
Speaker 3: That's the truth. I would sucker for any thing.

1709
01:33:00,520 --> 01:33:02,600
Speaker 6: Jeff Shane, who we've all worked with, would say, I

1710
01:33:02,640 --> 01:33:05,920
Speaker 6: would decorate my house for Canadian Day, which I do.

1711
01:33:06,000 --> 01:33:07,000
Speaker 5: I decorate like.

1712
01:33:07,240 --> 01:33:11,280
Speaker 2: Any excuse to be like a true Irish Cathleen.

1713
01:33:14,240 --> 01:33:14,760
Speaker 8: I love that.

1714
01:33:16,320 --> 01:33:18,519
Speaker 4: I do love Valentine's Day, though, I will say, but

1715
01:33:18,720 --> 01:33:21,840
Speaker 4: you know, we give Valentine's Day because you know, it

1716
01:33:22,479 --> 01:33:25,080
Speaker 4: makes you feel like if you're not you know, married

1717
01:33:25,160 --> 01:33:27,760
Speaker 4: or something, that you're just less bands and I hate that.

1718
01:33:28,080 --> 01:33:31,200
Speaker 3: Listen, enjoy love yourself. This is love yourself.

1719
01:33:31,439 --> 01:33:31,679
Speaker 1: Joy.

1720
01:33:31,760 --> 01:33:34,320
Speaker 3: I love you yourself. This is Valentine's Day.

1721
01:33:34,439 --> 01:33:38,080
Speaker 2: Stay cozy in bed, order something yummy and if you're

1722
01:33:38,200 --> 01:33:41,160
Speaker 2: with your lover enjoy that too. And we wish you

1723
01:33:41,160 --> 01:33:45,040
Speaker 2: a great weekend. We will be back on Sunday. Talk

1724
01:33:45,080 --> 01:34:02,400
Speaker 2: to you then, Bye bye