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Speaker 1: There is a battle royale underway among the cardinals over

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Speaker 1: the future of the traditional Latin Mass, really the entire liturgy,

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Speaker 1: and whether Pope Francis's sinnidality will survive. We have new

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Speaker 1: documents to share with you on this edition of The

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Speaker 1: Prayerful pose Welcome to an important Prayerful Posse. Be sure

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Speaker 1: to subscribe to the show. It's a wonderful way to

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Speaker 1: support our work totally free, or visit Raymondarroyo dot com

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Speaker 1: if you'd like to contribute. We've got a lot to

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Speaker 1: unpack today, and I mean a lot. We told you

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Speaker 1: last week about that extraordinary meeting of the cardinals in

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Speaker 1: the Vatican. We warned that the limited time for cardinals

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Speaker 1: to actually speak would probably affect the outcome. Well, new

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Speaker 1: details are now emerging. During the three minutes given to

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Speaker 1: them to speak, Cardinal Joseph zen threw down the gauntlet

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Speaker 1: over sinidality. The ninety three year old hero of the

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Speaker 1: faith stood up into pnounced what he called the Burgoglian sinidality.

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Speaker 1: At the same time, Cardinal Arthur Roach left a parting gift,

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Speaker 1: a letter attacking the Traditional Latin Mass and urging its ban.

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Speaker 1: Welcome the prayerful posse. Canon lawyer Priest of the Archdiocese

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Speaker 1: of New York, Father Gerald Murray, an editor in chief

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Speaker 1: of the Catholic Thing dot Org. Robert Royal, thank you,

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Speaker 1: gentlemen for being here. Let's get to Cardinal Zen's intervention. Here,

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Speaker 1: the former bishop of Hong Kong, a survivor of the

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Speaker 1: Communist persecution. There he stands up at the consistory and

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Speaker 1: he denounces this idea of sinidality put forward by Pope Francis.

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Speaker 1: Here's the quote. The ironclad manipulation of the process is

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Speaker 1: an insult to the dignity of the bishops, and the

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Speaker 1: continual reference to the Holy Spirit is ridiculous and almost blasphemous.

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Speaker 1: They expect surprises from the Holy Spirit. What surprises that

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Speaker 1: he should repudiate what he inspired in the church's two

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Speaker 1: thousand year tradition. Okay, Father Cardinal Zen claims that Pope

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Speaker 1: Francis is listening to the people of God directly. Quote

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Speaker 1: bypasses the bishops. Your thought on what we're seeing here?

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Speaker 1: And are you amazed that they're still battling over this

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Speaker 1: after Pope Francis is passing.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm distressed that we're still talking about cinidality, and

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Speaker 2: I'm glad the Cardinal Zen brought it up because sinnidality,

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Speaker 2: as conceived by Poe Francis is an ongoing revolution in

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Speaker 2: the church. And when you say that, the defenders of

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Speaker 2: Pope France say, no, it isn't it's just where the

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Speaker 2: Holy Spirit's leading us. And that's why I think Cardinals

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Speaker 2: Zen's critique is absolutely right. How can you be so

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Speaker 2: sure it's the Holy Spirit leading you into this new understanding?

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Speaker 2: Does the Holy Spirit contradicting what Jesus himself said, He's

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Speaker 2: put the apostles at the head of the church. They're

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Speaker 2: the shepherds of the flock. According to the synidality model

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Speaker 2: that was given at the last couple of sinnods by

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Speaker 2: Pope Francis, lay people have the exact same voice in

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Speaker 2: a syned meeting as do bishops, and that just plainly

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Speaker 2: contradicts the nature of the church. The churches made it

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Speaker 2: by hierarchical structure in which the bishops guide the flock

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Speaker 2: and the bishops are the definitive teachers.

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Speaker 3: So bravo to Cardinals En.

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Speaker 2: You know, he's seen communist manipulation and I think unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: during the time of Pope Francis, a very similar phenomenon

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Speaker 2: was happening, which is that you sideline leadership in the

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Speaker 2: name of the people, and then the people in charge,

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Speaker 2: meaning the Pope and his associates, they do what they

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Speaker 2: think is best and ignore the bishops.

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Speaker 1: Jens I had forgotten frankly about Pope Francis's final note

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Speaker 1: on that Synod of Sinidelity, and Cardinal Zen called it

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Speaker 1: out during his address. Here here's what he had to say.

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Speaker 1: The Pope says that the document is magisterium. It commits

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Speaker 1: the churches to make choices consistent what is stated in it.

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Speaker 1: But he also says, quote it is not strictly normative.

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Speaker 1: Its application will need various meditations end quote Bob your thoughts.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Zen does go on to ask the question,

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Speaker 1: does the Holy Spirit guarantee the contradictory interpretations that will arise,

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Speaker 1: especially given them many ambiguous and tendentious expressions in that

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Speaker 1: final document.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I have to say that if there is a

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Speaker 4: surprise way the Holy Spirit, at this point it's been

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Speaker 4: made unmistakably clear that there is nothing coming out of sitidelity.

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Speaker 4: There's all that surprising. It's a talk shop.

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Speaker 5: It goes on and on.

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Speaker 4: I mean, what did we get out of the conversations

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Speaker 4: over several years. We had some conversations about gays, We

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Speaker 4: had some conversations about women as possible deacons. Both of

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Speaker 4: those things have basically been rejected. Although there wasn't a

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Speaker 4: I have a feeling by the way that this zen

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Speaker 4: remarks sense a group of bishops who decided. This is

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Speaker 4: only only my only speculation, but I have a feeling that

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Speaker 4: he represents a voice that is pretty widespread among a

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Speaker 4: minority of cardinals in the College of Cardinals. And so

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Speaker 4: when he rejects this idea of cinidality, and we get

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Speaker 4: the impression that Leo himself is not that eager to

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Speaker 4: pursue cinidality in the way that it's been presented to

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Speaker 4: us in the past. If you want to talk about

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Speaker 4: conversations among people, look, that's fine. You don't need to

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Speaker 4: invoke the term synned for this then, and others have

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Speaker 4: rightly pointed out that this is not going to get

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Speaker 4: us anywhere with the churches. If you're concerned about a humanism,

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Speaker 4: it's not going to get us anywhere with the churches

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Speaker 4: that actually have a synodyl tradition, like the Orthodox.

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Speaker 5: To it and it just.

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Speaker 4: Seems to me that Zen has been because he's ninety

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Speaker 4: four years old and he's basically beyond being punished for

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Speaker 4: anything that he's said. He represents a group of cardinals

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Speaker 4: who want this kind of thing to be put on

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Speaker 4: the record, and that now if we're going to have discussions,

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Speaker 4: we're gonna have discussions about what cinideality is. It cannot

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Speaker 4: be possibly be what Father just talked about, where lay

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Speaker 4: people are going to be put on the same level

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Speaker 4: with people who have actually studied theology, who've had responsibilities

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Speaker 4: in the church, who have been authorized by Jesus himself

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Speaker 4: through the Magisterium to guide the church, even at this time,

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Speaker 4: which is admittedly a difficult time.

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Speaker 5: But look, Zen is God bless him.

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Speaker 4: He is over ninety years old, he's sharp as attack,

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Speaker 4: and he is unafraid.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, Bob, just to clarify, and you believe Leo

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Speaker 1: is on what side of this the more traditional form

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Speaker 1: of the Senate or the Francis vision of sinidality, which

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Speaker 1: is everybody, everybody, everybody, toto totos totos.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. I get well.

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Speaker 4: Look, I think that we're going to see more of

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Speaker 4: this where Leo is going to continue to talk, the

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Speaker 4: talk to a certain extent of what we inherited from

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Speaker 4: Pope Francis, but I think he's going to use it

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Speaker 4: in a different way. We're already starting to see that.

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Speaker 4: I mean the fact that he convened these cardinals and

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Speaker 4: he asked him you know, it was a too short

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Speaker 4: a meeting, and you know, we could have asked for

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Speaker 4: a longer time and a better organization. I don't think

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Speaker 4: organized even for the short time that they had, but

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Speaker 4: the fact that he allowed that to happen, and he's

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Speaker 4: already announced that now they're going to be yearly meetings

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Speaker 4: of the cardinals, not of everybody and his uncle, but

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Speaker 4: of the cardinals to talk about specific issues, and that

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Speaker 4: those future meetings are going to be three or four

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Speaker 4: days longer times. Get them in, let them have a

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Speaker 4: chance to really discuss things with one another. This is

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Speaker 4: the hierarchy now beginning to take charge of where the

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Speaker 4: church is going to go next.

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Speaker 5: And I feel it.

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Speaker 4: Look, it could go anywhere after that happens, But I

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Speaker 4: just have a feeling that we're in a different tone

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Speaker 4: of the way that the conversation is now going to

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Speaker 4: unfold within the church.

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Speaker 1: in his intervention here, he talked about the ambiguity of

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Speaker 1: the document that snodyl document, the senod on Cinidality Final

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Speaker 1: Document is being the problem and he asks, he wonders

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Speaker 1: if this won't lead to divisions as you're seeing in Anglicanism.

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Speaker 2: Your thoughts, His warning is absolutely correct when you say

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Speaker 2: that this is a magisterial document, but it's not obligatory

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Speaker 2: because local conditions may require different applications.

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Speaker 3: What are you telling the ten commandments?

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Speaker 2: You know you can have some countries where ten of

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Speaker 2: them will be observed, but others only six or seven. Uh,

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Speaker 2: you know, I mean, what is this? This, unfortunately is

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Speaker 2: the ongoing study group model of the church, which is

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Speaker 2: that everything's under question. We put out what we want

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Speaker 2: you to do, You go, you do as much as

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Speaker 2: you think you can or should, and then we won't

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Speaker 2: let others criticize you for it, because that's what you decide.

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Speaker 2: And you know it's He uses the word manipulation, which

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Speaker 2: I think is the key critique that he's making, and

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Speaker 2: you know, I'll disagree slightly with my esteemed colleague Bob

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Speaker 2: in the sense that I didn't see the new spirit

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Speaker 2: in this meeting, because this was the citidellite model of acting.

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Speaker 2: Small group lectures, very limited time for personal intervention, control agenda,

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Speaker 2: control the agenda. And then I'll say this, the cardinals

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Speaker 2: were summons and the popes that he wants to hear

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Speaker 2: from them, but instead maybe he didn't hear from a

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Speaker 2: lot of them. But what we did get was instruction

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Speaker 2: from the Roman curia about what you're supposed to think

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Speaker 2: about these topics, which I thought was curtuitous.

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Speaker 3: You get the cardinal.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, we'll talk about Cardinal Roach's contribution. But if

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Speaker 2: you look at it time wise, he could never have

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Speaker 2: read that in three minutes. You know, it would have

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Speaker 2: taken longer in order to read it intelligibly. So it's

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Speaker 2: again I think it's it's sort of consultation with control,

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Speaker 2: which again remind I think Cardinal zend the Communist Party.

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Speaker 2: They have Communist Party plenary meetings all the time, but

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Speaker 2: as you know, sometimes people get ejecting from those meetings.

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Speaker 2: And then because the agendas said, and we're going to

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Speaker 2: stage something here, So the Catholic Church should do very

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Speaker 2: well to return to what was done in the early Church,

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Speaker 2: which as bishops gathered together and they talk for as

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Speaker 2: long as they need to talk.

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Speaker 1: Father, we heard from Cardinal Zin who offered a critique

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Speaker 1: of sinidelity at the same time you referenced this a

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Speaker 1: moment ago a courial Cardinal Cardinal Gretch, who's head of

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Speaker 1: the Vatican Sonadyl Office, heroes to make the pitch and

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Speaker 1: the defense of Pope Francis's Sonadyl path Ildornale released this.

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Speaker 1: It reads it is always up to the Bishop of

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Speaker 1: Rome to convene a company, conclude, and if necessary, suspend

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Speaker 1: the Sonadyl process. In no way do the senator bishops

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Speaker 1: and the exercise of cinidality limit the exercise of primacy,

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Speaker 1: that's the papacy. The Senate should offer the Bishop of

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Speaker 1: Rome a consensus on the issue. Grench also hopes for

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Speaker 1: quote an informal modality of exercising cinidality. Father, he's clearly

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Speaker 1: hoping he's split the difference here. But what does he

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Speaker 1: mean by that?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think, first, as a strong man, no one

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Speaker 2: has ever claimed that a sendate has an existence apart

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Speaker 2: from the being summoned by the Pope or dismissed by him.

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Speaker 2: But then secondly, what does this mean we want to consensus?

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Speaker 2: I thought we wanted to hear honestly from people, and

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Speaker 2: if there are honest divisions in the church, then don't

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Speaker 2: pretend that we're going to ignore them. We're going to

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Speaker 2: pretend everybody agrees. This is part of the suffocating aspect

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Speaker 2: that we had under the last pontificate, because you can remember,

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Speaker 2: people who criticized Poe Francis's way of doing were excluded,

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Speaker 2: Cardinal Muller, Cardinal Burke. They experience we could say, the

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Speaker 2: ecclesiastical cold shoulder. You know, they both lost their jobs.

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Speaker 2: And you know, Cardinal Burke was at the first Senate

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Speaker 2: of the family. He was not invited back, you know.

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Speaker 2: So I'm very suspicious when I hear the word consensus.

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Speaker 3: That UN talk.

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Speaker 2: By the way, you know, if you have experienced with

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Speaker 2: UN meetings, that's what they do.

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Speaker 3: Nobody can. Everybody's got to be in consensus.

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Speaker 1: It's always consensus, and you agree to nothing. Bob, I

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Speaker 1: wanted you to pick up on the line the last

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Speaker 1: wish there if you will, of Grench, who again he's

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Speaker 1: got a dog in the fight, He's got a whole office,

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Speaker 1: a sonatal office. He wants that thing to go on,

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Speaker 1: and they want to keep this Francis model of, you know,

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Speaker 1: an experiment in parliamentary government in the church running. He said,

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Speaker 1: he hopes for an informal modality of exercising sinidality. What

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Speaker 1: does that mean in your mind?

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Speaker 4: Well, I find myself in this episode being uncharacteristically the

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Speaker 4: optimist among the three of us.

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Speaker 1: Okay, be that way, Bob.

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Speaker 4: Because look I read all that, and I said to myself,

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Speaker 4: I don't think that there is an intelligent cardinal who

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Speaker 4: here's that.

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Speaker 5: Now.

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Speaker 4: He may hear that, maybe the Pope wants us to

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Speaker 4: listen to this question of sinidality. But I think you

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Speaker 4: hear that, and you say, what in God's name can

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Speaker 4: that possibly mean? Says the gobbletygook that we've been listening

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Speaker 4: to for years about cinidality and all this confusion. I mean,

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Speaker 4: one of the things that I heard about from sources

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Speaker 4: is that many of these cardinals said, look, we're just

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Speaker 4: confused about this. We're tired of going over and over

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Speaker 4: the same things. These pronouncements that come out. I think

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Speaker 4: when I read, I said to myself, this guy is

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Speaker 4: whistling past the graveyard because he knows that they have

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Speaker 4: not gotten anything substantial done. Now you can try to

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Speaker 4: preserve the illusion that somehow that there's some dynamic age

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Speaker 4: of the spirit about to get well.

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Speaker 1: He says, there's good fruits here. He says, there's fruits

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Speaker 1: that are blooming all over the place.

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Speaker 5: Where are they?

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Speaker 4: I mean, I don't see them in or in my diocese.

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Speaker 4: I don't see them in the church in the United States.

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Speaker 4: I mean, we've had lots of conversations within our own

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Speaker 4: church in the United States, which has been synadal in

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Speaker 4: a fairly good way, if you want to use that term, Sonadyl,

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Speaker 4: But you know, what is there out there? Concretely, I

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Speaker 4: think that the cardinals, from at least some of the

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Speaker 4: sources that I've been in contact with, I really think

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Speaker 4: that the dynamic edge of what's going on is something

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Speaker 4: quite different than what he was talking about.

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Speaker 5: Whatever. In God's name, that.

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Speaker 1: Just contrary to that, Bob, and I'm going to throw

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Speaker 1: this to Father quickly. I agree with you. I read

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Speaker 1: the Gretch thing. I read all of these statements from

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Speaker 1: Fernandez Gretch Roach. My hair was on fire reading them.

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Speaker 1: It's enraging and stupid half of the stuff nobody can

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Speaker 1: make sense of. But father, this is done in the

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Speaker 1: name and presumably with the permission of Pope Leo, who's

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Speaker 1: running the show now and called the meeting.

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Speaker 2: Is well, of course, because he's responsible for it. In fact,

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Speaker 2: he set the four topic agenda that we were going

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Speaker 2: to have. But then, you know, the day before the

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Speaker 2: meeting starts or the day it starts, they announced that

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Speaker 2: two of the topics are basically off the table, and

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Speaker 2: that half the group would not be able to report

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Speaker 2: because they live in Rome and the Pope can consult

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Speaker 2: them as he wants to. Now, maybe Bob is right,

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Speaker 2: you know, I love Optimists in the house and he too,

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Speaker 2: eight because maybe in fact the Pope is going to

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Speaker 2: scratch his head and say, wait a minute, I call

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Speaker 2: a meeting and then the organizers don't plan properly for

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Speaker 2: time and microphone time and all that good stuff.

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Speaker 3: I hope that's gonna happen.

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Speaker 2: I'm very encouraged that the next meeting is going to

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Speaker 2: be three to four days.

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Speaker 3: I just hope they'll drop this.

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Speaker 2: How could I a middle school social science approach, which

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Speaker 2: is that the students sit down, they get coloring books,

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Speaker 2: and you know, match the dot things and say okay,

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Speaker 2: here are your ten topics, join them all together, and

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Speaker 2: then at the end we're gonna have one student stand.

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Speaker 3: Up to speak for the rest of you. I hope

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Speaker 3: that ends.

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Speaker 2: You know, what we need, basically, what we need is

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Speaker 2: a little bit of Remember the Pope talked about apostolic

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Speaker 2: or gospel frankness.

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Speaker 3: I think it's for Cardinal zen represents. I love this guy.

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Speaker 2: He's a ninety four year old victim of communism who

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Speaker 2: goes to the Free West to tell them, hey, folks

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Speaker 2: don't act like communists.

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Speaker 3: That's essentially what he's saying.

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Speaker 1: M Yeah, which was I mean, what a hero. This

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Speaker 1: is probably his last meeting, but of course I would

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Speaker 1: have said that about the consistory. You know that elected

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Speaker 1: Pope Leo. And here he is again. I mean, zenj

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Speaker 1: just keeps coming back. He's amazing, Bob. We should recall

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Speaker 1: we lost Cardinal George pell of Australia three years ago.

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Speaker 1: He too wayed in on this Senate on sinidelity in

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Speaker 1: one of his final pieces. He used a non diplome

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Speaker 1: to write this piece, but he described the Senate itself

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Speaker 1: as a toxic nightmare, from which the church must free itself.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he pointed out the confusion over these sinates

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Speaker 1: of bishops as well, intermingling them with a laity. Is

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Speaker 1: that thought still dominant in the minds of these cardinals

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Speaker 1: or is it, as somebody said here, a minority opinion.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Well, look he also used the term catastrophe for the church,

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Speaker 4: and we should, I suppose say for our audience that

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Speaker 4: this is sometimes referred to as the demos document, that

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Speaker 4: it's the people. I actually had lunch shortly before died

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Speaker 4: with him in Rome, and he was talking about then

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Speaker 4: because I was worried that, you know, maybe there are

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Speaker 4: ways that the pope was being manipulated. He said, look,

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Speaker 4: you know, a person who's been a bishop as long

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Speaker 4: as as Pop Francis has should be able to control

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Speaker 4: what is going on. And so he played the He

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Speaker 4: laid the blamed directly on Pope Leo for what was

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Speaker 4: going on, and I think he was absolutely.

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Speaker 5: Right about that.

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Speaker 4: Look, we've got a new situation, pope. Forrancis, Yeah, I'm sorry,

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Speaker 4: but with Pope Prampcis, we've got a new situation. You know,

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Speaker 4: there's an Italian phrase that no pope rules from the grave.

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Speaker 4: And I think that in this circumstances we have to

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Speaker 4: look very carefully at what if there is going to

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Speaker 4: be some new surprises.

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Speaker 5: From the Holy Spirit, what might actually be coming out

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Speaker 5: from Leo. But you have to say that.

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Speaker 4: Cardinal pell who was much respected among the bishops, had

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Speaker 4: done a great deal toward cleaning up the finances of

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Speaker 4: the Holy See, and then was unceremoniously dismissed because obviously

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Speaker 4: he was getting nearer to some truths that would have

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Speaker 4: been uncomfortable for some people. I think people look back

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Speaker 4: at that, it's the third anniversary of his death. I

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Speaker 4: think people look back at that and say, look, there

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Speaker 4: was a guy who was willing to pay the price

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Speaker 4: and spoke the truth, and now is time maybe to

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Speaker 4: move something forward. I really think there are enough voices

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Speaker 4: within the College of the Cardinals that whether they will prevail.

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Speaker 4: I was the one who said that it's a minority

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Speaker 4: view at this point, but whether they avail, there's that

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Speaker 4: minority I think has a strong opinion. I think a

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Speaker 4: lot of the cardinals who were appointed by Pope Francis

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Speaker 4: were appointed. You know, they weren't appointed ideologically the way

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Speaker 4: some of us feared. They were kind of appointed because

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Speaker 4: the Pope personally got.

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Speaker 5: A good impression of them.

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Speaker 4: You know, there's there's this guy from Mongolia, there's another

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Speaker 4: one from tong others there's a I think a Ukrainian

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Speaker 4: Eastern cardinal from Australia. I mean these were strange appointments,

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Speaker 4: and I think that those people are probably on a

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Speaker 4: steep learning curve right now. I'm paying attention to things

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Speaker 4: like the objections that have been raised by because they

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Speaker 4: know that things have not moved forward very far in

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Speaker 4: recent years.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and rank, confusion and decay are all around us.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we can't deny that. I mean if Pearl

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Speaker 1: wrote about that, which I'll get to later, but you

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Speaker 1: mentioned a moment ago, Bob that no pope rules from

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Speaker 1: the grave. Well, the cardinals decided not to discuss liturgy

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Speaker 1: and the Latin Mass due to time restrictions. But right

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Speaker 1: on que Cardinal Arthur Roach, who was Francis's prefect for

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Speaker 1: the Vatican Liturgy Office and now remains under Leo, he

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Speaker 1: left behind a letter at the end of the consistory

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Speaker 1: that sounds awfully like a pope ruling from the grave.

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Speaker 1: It was addressed to the cardinals and it takes aim

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Speaker 1: at the traditional Latin Mass. Father, He writes this, the

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Speaker 1: intervention of reform of the liturgy desired by the Second

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Speaker 1: Vatican counsul is not only in full harmony with the

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Speaker 1: truest sense of tradition, but constitutes a highway of putting

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Speaker 1: ourselves at the service of tradition, so that the latter,

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Speaker 1: like a great river, leads the Church to the port

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Speaker 1: of eternity. Without legitimate progress, tradition would be reduced to

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Speaker 1: a collection of dead things, not always all healthy. Without

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Speaker 1: healthy tradition, progress risks becoming a pathological search for novelty,

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Speaker 1: which cannot generate life. Father Roche quotes Benedict the sixteenth

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Speaker 1: at some point, who's some more in pontificum, was completely

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Speaker 1: flattened by Pope Francis. So the Vatican two liturgy is

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Speaker 1: a complete harmony with tradition. But what tradition?

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Speaker 3: Well, yes, I mean. The problem with the Cardinal Rohat's

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Speaker 3: letter is that it's not a very.

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Speaker 2: Well done historical or canonical or liturgical defense of what's

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Speaker 2: happened since the Second Vatican Council. It basically assumes that

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Speaker 2: the post Vatican Two reform reflects the intent of the Council, fathers,

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Speaker 2: and therefore if you question it, you're questioning an act

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Speaker 2: of the Second Vatican Council. He at least Pope Benedict

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Speaker 2: is one of the quotes in favor of the notion,

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Speaker 2: which is wrongly argued that there's a unit. There's got

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Speaker 2: to be only one liturgical expression in the life of

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Speaker 2: the Church. Well, there's only only one offer of praise

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Speaker 2: given to God through the Sacred Liturgy, but it encompasses

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Speaker 2: many forms, all the Eastern rights, the Western rights that

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Speaker 2: were preserved. It goes back to the Council of Trent

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Speaker 2: arguing that there's only one form of the Mass. The

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Speaker 2: Council of Trent endorsed the continued use of the ambrosion right.

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Speaker 2: Just as a perfect example, the Liturgy Office just issued

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Speaker 2: an approval for the right to be used in a

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Speaker 2: Mexican diocese.

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Speaker 3: There's the Anglican use, right.

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Speaker 2: I mean, the thing is not a seriously well argued document,

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Speaker 2: and it basically though it gets down to this, this

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Speaker 2: is a very important question, and I know many of

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Speaker 2: our listeners are very intent on this point. Is the

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Speaker 2: New Mass an accurate reflection of what the document of

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Speaker 2: the Second Vatican Council said about the reform of the liturgy.

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Speaker 2: There are some who say yes and others who say no.

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Speaker 2: It's an open, scholarly debate. We shouldn't shut it down

434
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 2: because Cardinal Roach says you can't talk about this. That's

435
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:00,080
Speaker 2: I think the essential flaw of this doc.

436
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, Bob. Also the way he apparently I don't think

437
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:07,159
Speaker 1: he was able to offer it because they tabled the topic,

438
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:09,639
Speaker 1: but the fact that he then handed out the letter

439
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 1: like lobbying the cardinals in advance for whatever their next

440
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,159
Speaker 1: meeting will be. But here's the final paragraph of the

441
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:17,359
Speaker 1: Roach letter. I want to read this to people. It

442
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:22,399
Speaker 1: would be trivial to read the tensions unfortunately present around

443
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 1: the celebration as a simple divergence between different tastes concerning

444
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:33,679
Speaker 1: a particular ritual form. The problematic is primarily ecclesiological. I

445
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 1: do not see how it is possible to say that

446
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:40,760
Speaker 1: one recognizes the validity of the Council, though it amazes

447
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 1: me that a Catholic might presume not to do so

448
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 1: and at the same time not accept the liturgical reform

449
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 1: born out of Sacrasanctum conchilium. The Vatican Two Documents, a

450
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 1: document that expresses the reality of the liturgy intimately joined

451
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 1: to the vision of the Church so admirably described in

452
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 1: lou Gensium, another Vatican to document. Bob, how does the

453
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,480
Speaker 1: cardinal overseas liturgy write a letter like this that seems

454
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 1: to have such contempt for a write that was celebrated

455
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:10,920
Speaker 1: by countless saints.

456
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean he gets part of it, right, of course, rights,

457
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 4: it's it's not a trivial question.

458
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:17,199
Speaker 5: He's right about that.

459
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, that the rich goes deeply to the question of

460
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 4: what the church is where he gets off into into

461
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 4: what a lot of people have just mocked.

462
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,440
Speaker 5: It's just very poor reasoning.

463
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,639
Speaker 4: Father just mentioned that it's the it's the assumption, and

464
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 4: that's the word we need to use here, the assumption

465
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 4: that what has preceded from after Vatican two was what

466
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 4: the fathers of the Council actually asked for.

467
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 5: Now we know that Popo Leo.

468
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 4: Has begun to a series of catechises about the documents

469
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:47,680
Speaker 4: of Vatican too.

470
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:49,160
Speaker 5: He wants to go back and visit them.

471
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,400
Speaker 4: He's already just given this week a discourse about Dave Verbum,

472
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 4: which is a document that is about scripture. And I

473
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:57,960
Speaker 4: think we all are going to wait with baited breath

474
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,119
Speaker 4: when he gets to the one about liturgy, which she

475
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 4: made wait a while is to get to because that

476
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,160
Speaker 4: is going to be quite controversial. But you know, look,

477
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 4: he uses a phrase, and I think that this is

478
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,119
Speaker 4: a direct challenge to BENEDICTA the sixteenth, who was of

479
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 4: course an immensely learned and wise theologian and pastor of

480
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 4: the church. He uses a phrase that he says that

481
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:25,119
Speaker 4: freezing divisions is not a good solution. Well, that is

482
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 4: not what Benedict talked about. Benedict tried to provide us

483
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 4: with a peaceful, respectful solution on both sides. We've mentioned

484
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 4: this many times in this show, which would be called

485
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:41,440
Speaker 4: mutual enrichment, that there would be a dynamic dialogue going

486
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,120
Speaker 4: on between what's old and what's new, And in part

487
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,680
Speaker 4: that's what Roach talked about in that document. But he

488
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 4: wanted to suppress one half of that dialogue. And I

489
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:53,439
Speaker 4: don't think that that is going to as time goes on,

490
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:55,240
Speaker 4: and we take a while for this to work itself

491
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 4: up as time goes on, I don't think many people.

492
00:26:57,520 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 5: Are going to buy that argument.

493
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean again, we have to confront what

494
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:08,239
Speaker 1: did the Council Fathers at Vatican to intend. And if

495
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 1: you read the document, there was supposed to be Gregorian chant.

496
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 1: If you read the rubrics, there's a presumption that the

497
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 1: priest is facing the altar and east away from the

498
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,239
Speaker 1: people during the mass. I mean, there are a lot

499
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,879
Speaker 1: of elements that are just ignored that Roach makes no

500
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 1: reference to here. And I think there was wisdom and

501
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,400
Speaker 1: what Pope Benedict did. But this is clearly a battle

502
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,880
Speaker 1: among these cardinals at this point, and I think Roach

503
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 1: is trying to force them in one direction, maybe before

504
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 1: he gets bounced from the office. But we'll see. Cardinal

505
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:44,360
Speaker 1: Victor Manuel Fernandez, the head of the Vatican's Doctrinal Office,

506
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:48,199
Speaker 1: again appointed by Pope Francis, a holdover, offered this to

507
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 1: the College of Cardinals. He addressed this college. He referenced

508
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 1: to teaching documented by Pope Francis. Here's the quote. Certainly

509
00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:00,879
Speaker 1: there may be changes compared to the previous pontiff, but

510
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 1: that the challenge posed by Evangeli Gaudium cannot be buried.

511
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 1: Fernandez says, preaching the Gospel is not an obsessive proclamation

512
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 1: of all the doctrines and norms of the Church, and

513
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,479
Speaker 1: what there is is a need to remain open to

514
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 1: the reform of our practices styles organizations, aware that often

515
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 1: our schemes may not be the best father. You wrote

516
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 1: a recent column where you warned about the dangers of relativism,

517
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 1: this idea the truth is negotiable. Your reaction to this

518
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 1: interjection by Fernandez, Yeah, this.

519
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 2: Is most regrettable, to say the least, as soon as

520
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 2: you start commenting on the mindset of people defending doctrine

521
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 2: by calling it obsessive, what you're doing is disqualifying them

522
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 2: from serious consideration. It's a strong man to say that

523
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 2: preaching the Gospel is an obsessive listing of church doctrines.

524
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 2: But what is evangelization sharing the treasure of the faith?

525
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 3: What is the treasure of the faith? Consist them the

526
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 3: teachings of Jesus Christ.

527
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 2: How are those teachings mediated by the church by means

528
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 2: of doctrinal statements? I mean, why do we say that

529
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 2: one of the greatest things John Paul the Second did

530
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 2: was issue the Catechism of the Catholic Church. We say

531
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 2: that because that brought the clarity of truth in a

532
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 2: very concise and understandable form to the explanation of the

533
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 2: faith in the modern world. So Cardinal Fernandez's assumption here

534
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 2: is that we are in a process of unstoppable change,

535
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 2: and anyone.

536
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 3: Who opposes it is got a problem.

537
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 2: And my answer to him is, did Jesus Christ send

538
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 2: the apostles out and said, guys figure it out on

539
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 2: an ongoing basis? No, he said, teach them everything that

540
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 2: I have commanded you. He talked about passing. He who

541
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 2: hears you hears me. That doesn't mean, hey, guys, now

542
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 2: that I'm gone, you make it up. That's essentially what

543
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 2: we got here in this kind of approach.

544
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I'm going to read that little bit of

545
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 1: the quote again, that the obsessive and obsessive proclamation of

546
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 1: all the doctrines and norms of the church. That that's

547
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 1: not that shouldn't be the pattern, Bob, And he goes

548
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 1: on to say, quote, the need to frequently review the

549
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 1: content of our sermons and interventions so as not to

550
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 1: end up always talking about here here's the lines again,

551
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 1: the same doctrinal, moral, bioethical, political issues. But Bob, if

552
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 1: those issues are in dispute in the world, why aren't

553
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 1: you clearly articulating the maneu.

554
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 4: You know there was an article written as I think

555
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 4: you know Raymond, just recently in the Italian which Cardinal

556
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 4: Fernandez was described.

557
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 5: I have to look this word up actually in the Gestivo.

558
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 4: He's undigestible, according to this writer, and that therefore he

559
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 4: may be the first one who's going to go out

560
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 4: the door if Leo starts changed personal in the Vatican.

561
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,479
Speaker 4: Look what are I detect here? There's an echo of

562
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 4: something that the Pope Francis said very early on in

563
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 4: his papacy, and which he said, we have to stop

564
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 4: insisting and obsessing on the same issues, by which he

565
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 4: meant abortion and homosexuality. Frankly, I mean, no one is

566
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 4: worried about obsessing about the trinity or you know, the incarnation,

567
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 4: or Mary's in perpetual virginity. I mean, those are all

568
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 4: things that are you know, kind of internal to theological debates,

569
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 4: particularly these these bioethical questions, things like abortion, and I mean,

570
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 4: these go to the heart of are we going to

571
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 4: protect human life? Do we care that there are sixty

572
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 4: million abortions a year and globally, I mean, do we

573
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 4: care that the ideas of sexuality and male and female

574
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 4: he created them is being eroded by our culture. Why wouldn't.

575
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 4: I mean, these are the battle fronts in the same

576
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 4: way that during the Crusades the armies had to go

577
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 4: out and battle Islam because that's where the threat was

578
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 4: coming from. Yeah, so look what he's trying to do

579
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 4: is you know, of course, we are going to review

580
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 4: and constantly try to think, can we do better in

581
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 4: our preaching? Can we do better in formulating the doctrines

582
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 4: that we have. Can we do better in teaching people

583
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 4: you know that abortion is an evil? Can we do

584
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 4: better in trying to explain to people why the church

585
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 4: believes that male and female He created them is good.

586
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 4: It is good for everyone. It's good for families, it's

587
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 4: good for children, it's good for society, and ultimately it's

588
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 4: good to bring people to salvation in heaven. But if

589
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 4: we don't look to what the things are that are

590
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 4: the most pressing threats to.

591
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 5: The church, what are we about? Yeah?

592
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 1: And if you're not rearticulating doctrine and truth for each

593
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 1: successive generation and passing on those sacraments as imparted by

594
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 1: Christ to his apostles, what is this all about? What

595
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 1: do you need a church for it all? Then we

596
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 1: should all go join make up our own church. It'll

597
00:32:58,080 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 1: be the Father Jerry Church, and the Bob Church and

598
00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 1: the Church Raymond. It'll be great, and we may have

599
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 1: great music and have many fascinating aspects, but it's not

600
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 1: rooted and tethered in this tradition that I think is

601
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 1: what draws people, and certainly young people to Catholicism. Father,

602
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 1: as I mentioned earlier, and I've been reading Cardinal pell again,

603
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 1: and we talked about these demos letters that he wrote

604
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 1: near the end of his life, this memorandum. These were

605
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 1: again anonymous notes, but they were eerily prophetic. He wrote

606
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 1: this after Vatican Two. Catholic authorities often underestimated the hostile

607
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 1: power of secularization the world flesh and the devil, especially

608
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 1: in the Western world, and overestimated the influence and strength

609
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 1: of the Catholic Church. We are weaker than fifty years ago,

610
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 1: and many factors are beyond our control in the short term,

611
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 1: at least, the decline of the number of believers, the

612
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 1: frequency of mass attendance, the demise or extinction of many

613
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 1: religious orders. The new Pope must under stand that the

614
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 1: secret of Christian and Catholic vitality comes from fidelity to

615
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:09,839
Speaker 1: the teachings of Christ and Catholic practices. It does not

616
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 1: come from adapting to the world or from money. He

617
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,319
Speaker 1: wrote that in twenty twenty two. Father, Do you think

618
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:18,240
Speaker 1: Leo understands that secret?

619
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,320
Speaker 2: I think he does because he lived in South America

620
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 2: and he saw the vitality of faith of the simple people,

621
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 2: you know, in Mountain Diasis where he was. He also

622
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 2: knows about the church in Africa. You know, one of

623
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 2: his pre secretaries is an African. He's very aware. You

624
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 2: want to get a barometer of how right Cardinal pel Is,

625
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 2: call together a hundred, Call together one hundred African Catholics,

626
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 2: and call together one hundred German Catholics, and then ask

627
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 2: them questions, which group do you think would reflect the

628
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 2: mind of Christ better? I can give you an answer.

629
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:59,280
Speaker 2: It's our brothers and sisters in Africa. The African bishops

630
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:04,479
Speaker 2: are heroic because they're completely against this European and North

631
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:09,760
Speaker 2: American notion, which is essentially a philosophical error that truth

632
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:14,320
Speaker 2: has no stability. Truth is a social construct a powerful people,

633
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:16,760
Speaker 2: and what the people say. Now that we're in charge,

634
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 2: we're going to construct a truth that's going to be

635
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:19,879
Speaker 2: more useful and people going.

636
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 3: To embrace it because it works.

637
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:25,439
Speaker 2: And the Africans say, forget that Jesus Christ saved us

638
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 2: from ourselves and from the devil, and we don't want

639
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 2: to live in a world in which somebody comes along

640
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,320
Speaker 2: and tells me sin is a good thing and worshiping

641
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 2: all religions is a good thing. Africans are familiar with

642
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 2: the evils of paganism. That's something we forget about. You know,

643
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 2: we have curious superstitions in the modern world. In America,

644
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:51,239
Speaker 2: in Africa, they have this very deadening paganistic problem control

645
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 2: of people and the rest magical formulism all and the

646
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 2: Catholter liberates from that. So, yeah, thank you for bringing

647
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 2: up Hell. Bob was a good friend of Cardinal Peals.

648
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 2: He might want to jump in on this.

649
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, but Bob, I'll give you the final word on

650
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 1: this Cardinal Pell's prophetic statement there.

651
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:11,919
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I mean, look at Pell's life. Pep.

652
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 4: Pell actually went to prison for a long time. They

653
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:18,880
Speaker 4: did a mistaken accusation against him of abuse and wrote

654
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:21,719
Speaker 4: some very beautiful texts during that time. I mean, I

655
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:23,719
Speaker 4: always look back, as you know, I've written a couple

656
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,399
Speaker 4: of books about modern martyrs, and I always look back

657
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 4: to what actually converted the world, but converted the world,

658
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,799
Speaker 4: I mean, the philosophy and the theology were important in

659
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 4: the Roman Empire and they still are today. A lot

660
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:39,759
Speaker 4: of people need those intellectual developments to clear away some

661
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,440
Speaker 4: of the confusion about why you can believe in a

662
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:47,240
Speaker 4: God who created the world, etc. But what really moves

663
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:51,920
Speaker 4: people is the witness of persons who are willing to

664
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 4: preach the gospel, suffer for it, perhaps be marginalized, and

665
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 4: even die, which is a definition of a Christian martyrdom.

666
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:04,919
Speaker 4: And so you know, in the ancient world we saw

667
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 4: that and people who were willing to die for it

668
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 4: and at the same time exhibited conspicuous charity towards people

669
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 4: around them. I think that that's true now. And if

670
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:18,840
Speaker 4: we look, for example, at the christ the crisis of missions.

671
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 4: Remember Christ, you know, just a few decades ago, we

672
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 4: used to have missionary activity everywhere, and you know, when

673
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:27,320
Speaker 4: we were kids in school, we were saving our dimes

674
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:32,240
Speaker 4: to send off missions. And why did missionary activity fall

675
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,240
Speaker 4: off after Vatican Two. It's because we got this mistaken

676
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 4: idea that there are many cultures that are kind of

677
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:40,239
Speaker 4: okay the way they are, and they don't really need

678
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:43,959
Speaker 4: to hear the saving message of Jesus Christ if that's

679
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 4: the attitude you take. And of course you can you

680
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 4: understand that in pluralistic societies where you.

681
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:50,600
Speaker 5: Want to live, live and let live.

682
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 4: But if you are not a Christian who does not

683
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 4: believe that the message of Jesus Christ is the unique

684
00:37:56,719 --> 00:38:01,240
Speaker 4: savior of the human race is the most important truth

685
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:04,200
Speaker 4: for people to know everywhere in the world. Well, of

686
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 4: course people.

687
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 5: Aren't going to pay attention to it, cause you do

688
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:06,920
Speaker 5: believe it.

689
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:09,440
Speaker 4: People are going to say, oh, and that's the young

690
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 4: people that you talk about, Raymon.

691
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 5: They see that and they feel it and they're attracted

692
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 5: to it.

693
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 1: No, I saw it. I saw it this weekend. I

694
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 1: happen to be near a Latin Mass. I didn't go,

695
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 1: but I passed by and it was packed out and

696
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:24,320
Speaker 1: they've got they've got their babies, and they're they're fighting

697
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 1: with the kids, and they're trying to get everybody into

698
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,799
Speaker 1: the car. It was an amazing display, packed out, not

699
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:31,839
Speaker 1: a room, not a seat in the church. It looked

700
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 1: like Christmas Day and it was a traditional Latin Mass.

701
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:37,399
Speaker 1: You know, you've got to give the people what they want.

702
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 1: I always say that rapid fire stories we have to

703
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 1: get to the Vatican's High Court has denied the prosecutor's

704
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:48,919
Speaker 1: appeal in the case of Cardinal Angelo Bashu. This case,

705
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 1: of course, we've covered it for years, involving financial crimes. Father,

706
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 1: Can you give us the short version of what happened here?

707
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 1: And what does it mean? Is Mashew and the clear.

708
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 3: I don't know about that.

709
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 2: The prosecutor has of course now been revealed to have

710
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 2: been deficient in his filings and timing and the nature

711
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 2: of the arguments. I read a summary of what happened,

712
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:13,920
Speaker 2: and as a canon lawyer, I'm a little surprised that

713
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 2: they would the judge would have to point out that

714
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:18,919
Speaker 2: you didn't file on time and that you didn't state your.

715
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 3: Case very well.

716
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:19,919
Speaker 5: Right.

717
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,239
Speaker 2: So where it goes with Cardinal Baitsu, I don't know,

718
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 2: because his appeal, of course is pending also, so it

719
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 2: remains to be seen. But this whole thing reveals the

720
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 2: chaotic state of Vatican City state justice, that it is

721
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 2: not well organized, and that unfortunately drags out for years

722
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 2: and then results in these drips and drabs, ups and downs.

723
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:43,359
Speaker 3: That's about all I can say on it.

724
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, Bob, Meanwhile, back in the States, Archbishop Paul Cochley,

725
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 1: the president of the Bishop's Conference in the US, met

726
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:53,799
Speaker 1: with President Trump and Vice President Vance to discuss what

727
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:57,719
Speaker 1: he called areas of mutual concern. What do we know

728
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 1: about this meeting and what took Bishop so long to

729
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 1: reach out to the White House, and what do you

730
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:06,240
Speaker 1: make of this meeting?

731
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, they've been very careful about holding close

732
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 4: whatever was discussed. I think we can probably assume that

733
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 4: what they talked about was, uh, were life issues, I think,

734
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 4: but Vans and Trump are concerned about those, although Trump

735
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 4: has gotten.

736
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 5: A little bit more.

737
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 4: Ambiguous about his stance on pro life issues, and I

738
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:33,280
Speaker 4: think I hope Archbishop Cokeley, who's a very strong supporter

739
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 4: of life issues, I hope he put that to them forcefully.

740
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 5: I'm kind of confident that he did.

741
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 4: And of course, obviously they must have talked about immigration,

742
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:44,360
Speaker 4: and Archbishop Cokeley is one of those rare one of

743
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,239
Speaker 4: those rare birds who actually is very strong on those

744
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:50,279
Speaker 4: life issues and marriage and family issues and also has

745
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 4: supported a more liberal immigration policy. So I imagine they

746
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 4: went back and forth on that as well. It'll be

747
00:40:57,440 --> 00:40:59,359
Speaker 4: interesting to see what goes on, and it's I don't

748
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:02,880
Speaker 4: understand why Archbishop Burl, who did not meet with Trump,

749
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 4: did not meet with Biden either. It seems to me

750
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:07,759
Speaker 4: that there were some opportunities missed there.

751
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 5: Yeah.

752
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 1: No, well, it's good that they're meeting. I think it's

753
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 1: always good because not only can you articulate your position,

754
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 1: but you can understand why the administration is doing what

755
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 1: it's doing and shape that policy. So I'm glad they're talking.

756
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:23,400
Speaker 1: Father Pope Leo gave his annual address to the Diplomatic

757
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 1: Corps in Rome. He talked about freedom of expression, criticized

758
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 1: countries that use force to assert dominance. The Pope seems

759
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 1: ever more comfortable to wade into geopolitics at this moment.

760
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:38,240
Speaker 1: Is that prudent?

761
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,600
Speaker 2: Well in this talk, it is because he is talking

762
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 2: to the diplomats, so and he's there to act as

763
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 2: the moral conscience of nations. You know, every nation wants

764
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:49,839
Speaker 2: with the Pope to visit and then to smile at

765
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:52,919
Speaker 2: his leadership. So he says, well, when you represented its coming, we're.

766
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 3: Going to tell you what really think.

767
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:58,920
Speaker 2: I was very happy because he attacked Orwellian language problems,

768
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 2: which is precisely what the European Union is facing. And

769
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 2: it's you know, it's sad to say. It's also a

770
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 2: problem regarding Islamic persecution of Christians, where we don't want

771
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:10,400
Speaker 2: to identify as specifically any Christian.

772
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:11,399
Speaker 3: He did, in that.

773
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 2: Speech spoke very forcefully about it. So among the speeches

774
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 2: of his pontificates so far, this is one of the

775
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 2: best he's given.

776
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, that that enforcement of speech codes and certain speech

777
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:25,400
Speaker 1: was telling and good. I want to end on a

778
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 1: high note. Gents, we're hearing that there's an announcement of

779
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 1: Archbishop Fulton Sheen's beatification. Now this was suspended years ago,

780
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,200
Speaker 1: put a hold was put on it, I'm told by

781
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:41,319
Speaker 1: Cardinal Soupach and Cardinal Dolan at the time. Bob, this

782
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 1: has been coming for a long time, decades. In fact,

783
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:46,960
Speaker 1: why do you think it's taken so long for Fulton

784
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 1: Sheene to have this cause moved along? The miracle was

785
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:52,920
Speaker 1: approved literally years ago by the Vatican.

786
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:55,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, Father may have a better grip on this because

787
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,279
Speaker 4: he's in the orchidises of New York. But this has

788
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 4: always puzzled me because it's clear that among the Americans

789
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 4: who were great evangelizers in the modern world, you have

790
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:09,400
Speaker 4: to look to Sheen and then of course Shean also

791
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 4: was one who was able to use the radio and

792
00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 4: TV in ways to evangelize like nobody else. I mean,

793
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 4: he evangelized ordinary people, evangelized you know, prominent artists and

794
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 4: writers and whatnot. So I mean it's an amazing thing.

795
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:27,879
Speaker 4: And also I think it just would be great if

796
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,319
Speaker 4: under an American born pope we were to get this

797
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 4: American saint who is just I think he's a model

798
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:39,080
Speaker 4: for people who in the modern world and we all

799
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:41,320
Speaker 4: have to as we're doing right here, we all have

800
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 4: to deal with this media environment that he's pointed away

801
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 4: like nobody else.

802
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:49,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, he was incredible and again an Illinois boy

803
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:51,840
Speaker 1: as well. You know, Peoria is where the cause is,

804
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 1: That's where he was born, so there's that commonality with

805
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 1: the pope as well. But look, Fulton Sheen was an

806
00:43:56,719 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 1: evangelist or broadcaster Emmy winner. From me, he is personal,

807
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:05,759
Speaker 1: a great personal devotion on my part. He helped he

808
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 1: was a galvanizing force in helping my wife convert to

809
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:13,279
Speaker 1: the faith. And as a result of that, I was

810
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 1: I just started at e WTN and we were able

811
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 1: to bring Fulton Sheen back to the airwaves and it

812
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:22,280
Speaker 1: was because of you know that, really it was Rebecca's

813
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:25,600
Speaker 1: conversion that helped drive my wanting to bring Sheen back.

814
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:30,799
Speaker 1: So my question, father is what at this moment do

815
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:34,360
Speaker 1: you think is needed in the Sheen witness that the

816
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:36,880
Speaker 1: church can profit from.

817
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 2: Well, I think he displayed that a confidence in proclaiming

818
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:45,440
Speaker 2: Catholic doctrine to all levels of society. You know, he

819
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:50,440
Speaker 2: was a philosophy professor himself a Catholic university. He was

820
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:54,360
Speaker 2: a brilliant student, but he was a popularizer and he

821
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 2: was I think.

822
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:57,359
Speaker 3: He was the male mother Angelic, if I can put

823
00:44:57,400 --> 00:44:58,440
Speaker 3: it that way. You know, he.

824
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:03,840
Speaker 2: Started out this a very bold and confident approach to

825
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:07,440
Speaker 2: mount in America, which is, we love this country, but

826
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:09,319
Speaker 2: we love that we want this country to get to

827
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:12,000
Speaker 2: know Christ in the Catholic Church and that those who

828
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:14,279
Speaker 2: come to embrace it, we're here to help. And I

829
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:17,080
Speaker 2: think that's what he did. I know that he had

830
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:20,320
Speaker 2: a great influence on non Catholics because his television program

831
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 2: had many non Catholic viewers. I'm always reminded as the

832
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:26,360
Speaker 2: philosophy aspect, and you know, I know Bob is a

833
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:34,240
Speaker 2: former professor himself. If you explain complex questions in understandable ways.

834
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 2: People aren't turned off. There are turned off by boring professors.

835
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:41,319
Speaker 2: We've all had him, you know what I mean, you know,

836
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:42,800
Speaker 2: doctor sleep inducer.

837
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 3: But with Sheen we have a man. You know.

838
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:49,880
Speaker 2: He used to do diagrams on the blackboard and explain

839
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:54,359
Speaker 2: these supernatural categories and philosophy every I'll just say this

840
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:58,720
Speaker 2: my conviction after forty one years as a priest, people

841
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 2: needophy explained to them in order to be able to

842
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 2: live a good life. And when he said his life

843
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 2: worth living, that's the title of one of his books.

844
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 2: It was all about what is it that God made

845
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 2: us to know, do and think? And that is exactly

846
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 2: what he brought in a way. So I think, like

847
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,399
Speaker 2: Mother Angelica, all kinds of people follow him that you'd

848
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 2: never expect.

849
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he had a knack for weaving in poetry

850
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 1: and fiction, and he was a great weaver of culture

851
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 1: to reinforce those both philosophical and theological principles that he

852
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:37,080
Speaker 1: shared with that audience. He was just brilliant in so

853
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 1: many ways. So I'm delighted that this cause is finally

854
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:43,400
Speaker 1: moving along. I want to remind our viewers, our listeners

855
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 1: be sure to catch my interview with actor Robert Dobby

856
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 1: this week on a Royal Grande. We talk about his

857
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:52,600
Speaker 1: iconic films, his faith. I did not realize he was

858
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:57,400
Speaker 1: healed as a young boy due to Padre Pio's intervention.

859
00:46:57,800 --> 00:46:59,919
Speaker 1: Much more on that. Go to the Royal Grande Show.

860
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 1: It's on YouTube. It's over wherever you get your podcasts. Gentlemen,

861
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:05,879
Speaker 1: grateful to you all as always. If you want more

862
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 1: of the Arroyo Grande Prayerful Posse, subscribe to the Arroyo

863
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 1: Grande Show channel at YouTube or our podcast wherever you

864
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:16,800
Speaker 1: get yours on behalf of Robert Royal, Faby Gerald Murray.

865
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:20,279
Speaker 1: Until the Posse rides again, Stay the course, follow the light.

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Speaker 1: I'm Raymond Arroyo. We'll see you next time. Arroyo Grande

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Speaker 1: is produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. It's available on

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Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcast