Speaker 1: Welcome to tech Stuff, a production from I Heart Radio. Hey, Laron,
Speaker 1: Welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host, Jonathan Strickland. I'm
Speaker 1: an executive producer with iHeart Radio and I love all
Speaker 1: things tech. It is time for a tech Stuff Classic episode.
Speaker 1: This episode is actually a continuation of last week's classic episode.
Speaker 1: This one published on September two, thousand fourteen. It is
Speaker 1: titled The History of Area fifty one, Part two. So
Speaker 1: if you haven't listened to last week's classic episode, you
Speaker 1: should probably do that first. Area fifty one is it
Speaker 1: feels it feels like it's ironic to say this a
Speaker 1: famous secret facility, And so we kind of go through
Speaker 1: more about how Area fifty history unfolded in reality and
Speaker 1: really focusing on the well documented events that occurred at
Speaker 1: and around Area fifty one. Hope you enjoy The way
Speaker 1: history works is we like to think of it as
Speaker 1: there's a beginning, middle, and end of each thing, and
Speaker 1: then the next thing has a beginning, middle, and end
Speaker 1: when really everything is overlapping everything else. Yeah, it's that's
Speaker 1: that's exactly right. And I'm glad you said that. I
Speaker 1: was thinking about that earlier this week. If you've ever
Speaker 1: looked up historical characters who who lived in the same
Speaker 1: time period. It's it's fascinating. Yeah, and it can get
Speaker 1: really confusing really fast. Right, It's it's hard. It's hard
Speaker 1: to communicate how complex history is because we work really
Speaker 1: well understanding narratives. Right, but when you when you weave
Speaker 1: in so many narratives, that becomes like the ultimate Quentin
Speaker 1: Tarantino film. You can get lost. Yeah, but you are
Speaker 1: an explainer, extraordinary, how about that? So, so, I think
Speaker 1: that you can easily guide us through some stuff that
Speaker 1: might be might be a little confusing if you get
Speaker 1: it all at once, but take us through point by point,
Speaker 1: because I'll be honest with you, man, we're getting to
Speaker 1: my favorite part of the story. Yeah, here's here's where
Speaker 1: things get a little weird. Um. So, we had talked
Speaker 1: about the A twelve that had started. The first A
Speaker 1: twelve arrived at Are fifty one in nineteen sixty two
Speaker 1: and wouldn't really be tested until the following year. That's
Speaker 1: when pilots trained by the c i A or pilots
Speaker 1: who had joined the CIA, began to test these these
Speaker 1: aircraft at that same time, all the way back in
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty two. You had a project that ended up
Speaker 1: being called the D twenty one. That twenty one, by
Speaker 1: the way, where that number come from, Well, they had
Speaker 1: the A twelve and they figured having like an A
Speaker 1: twelve and a D twelve would be really confusing, so
Speaker 1: they just they just transpose those numbers to the A
Speaker 1: twelve and the D twenty one. This is when you
Speaker 1: realize how capricious the naming systems are. It's just you
Speaker 1: eventually like, ah, you know, I always thought those letters
Speaker 1: of numbers really had special designation. Not all the time. Oh,
Speaker 1: here's an idea, Jonathan. We if we end up ever
Speaker 1: doing top secret government work, I I hope that you
Speaker 1: and I could both threw our names in the hat
Speaker 1: to be the people who make up the code names.
Speaker 1: That'd be fantastic. And yeah, and and ultimately people will
Speaker 1: fear us because they know that if they if they
Speaker 1: do not please us, we will give them the worst
Speaker 1: code names. Yeah. Yeah, Also, uh, going back to it,
Speaker 1: sorry for that. Uh it's called the D twenty one
Speaker 1: instead of the A twelve. Then we know they transpose
Speaker 1: numbers to avoid, uh, to avoid too much similarity. But
Speaker 1: what's this D twenty one about? So this is this
Speaker 1: is where things are are pretty amazing. And the D
Speaker 1: twenty one was an unmanned vehicle. It was meant to
Speaker 1: be a spy plane that would not require a human
Speaker 1: pilot behind the controls. I mean, there would be a
Speaker 1: pilot controlling it, but they'd be controlling it remotely on
Speaker 1: the ound. So we are talking about this not an
Speaker 1: autonomous vehicle. I don't want to go so far as
Speaker 1: to say it's like some sort of robotic super thing
Speaker 1: that happened in two but we're talking about a remote
Speaker 1: controlled aerial vehicle that was essentially a jet. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's it was not like it was that much smaller
Speaker 1: than some of the other aircraft were talking about. It
Speaker 1: wasn't It wasn't like the size of a drone. You
Speaker 1: might go and get one of those little quad copters.
Speaker 1: It was significantly larger than that. It was amazing to
Speaker 1: me that it was this early. Now the reasons behind
Speaker 1: developing it make a lot of sense, because if you
Speaker 1: have a manned vehicle, then clearly you have a human
Speaker 1: life at risk whenever that vehicles in operation. Even if
Speaker 1: first we have to consider the fact that flying is
Speaker 1: can be dangerous. Flying a spy plane in particular, can
Speaker 1: be dangerous because the design may mean that it's difficult
Speaker 1: for you to have it take off or land safely,
Speaker 1: even if there's no enemy uh interference whatsoever during the mission, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and if you have to conduct evasive maneuvers, then there's
Speaker 1: not really a nice way to say it. You're in
Speaker 1: a lot of trouble. Yeah, I mean the we already
Speaker 1: mentioned in the previous episode that the YouTube plane is
Speaker 1: notoriously difficult to fly. So just with that alone, if
Speaker 1: you were able to have an unmanned version where you
Speaker 1: could get that same sort of reconnaissance ability but you
Speaker 1: don't put a pilot's life in danger, that's good. But
Speaker 1: on top of that, there's another reason that's that goes
Speaker 1: back to safety, but it's more about the safety of
Speaker 1: the country and not the pilot. Yeah, which means that
Speaker 1: if you have one of these aircraft and it's unmanned
Speaker 1: and it's shot down, there's no pilot. For the folks
Speaker 1: who shot down the aircraft, there's no pilot for them
Speaker 1: to capture and interrogate, so they're not going to get
Speaker 1: any other information apart from the actual workings of whatever
Speaker 1: the device was. So they might see that, you know,
Speaker 1: what kind of engine you're using or whatever, what sort
Speaker 1: of technology made it work, But they're not going to
Speaker 1: have a person that they can say, all right, how
Speaker 1: many other operatives are in the area, where did you
Speaker 1: fly from? Yeah, so that also, I mean, it's not
Speaker 1: completely um, it's not just something that's in concern for
Speaker 1: the pilot's well being. Uh, it's also a national security issue,
Speaker 1: which you know, it's not pleasant to talk about, but
Speaker 1: it's certainly something they had to keep in mind. And
Speaker 1: at this point sixty two, they're developing this early nineteen sixties. Uh,
Speaker 1: the USS are already knows about the you tube, and
Speaker 1: they're on the lookout for these vehicles I almost say creatures,
Speaker 1: but look out for these planes absolutely. And so this
Speaker 1: one in particular, was it was an an ambitious project.
Speaker 1: It wasn't just an unmanned drone, which already like I
Speaker 1: always think of the quad copters. It's just because the
Speaker 1: quad copters is such a popular consumer drone right now,
Speaker 1: and it's also kind of the design that we're seeing
Speaker 1: for stuff like the proposed Amazon delivery drones. This was
Speaker 1: this was a ramjet engine drone. We're talking about a
Speaker 1: super sonic vehicle. It's not meant to travel and speeds
Speaker 1: lower than that. In fact, you couldn't have this take
Speaker 1: off from a regular landing strip, you know, or or
Speaker 1: a runway. You had this mounted to a separate vehicle,
Speaker 1: like an A twelve. The A twelve would travel and
Speaker 1: start to reach supersonic speeds, and from that point you
Speaker 1: would then launch the D twenty one, which would already
Speaker 1: be traveling at a superspeed, know, a sonic supersonic speed,
Speaker 1: and it would just go from there. So this meant
Speaker 1: that they had a pretty risky launch sequence. I mean
Speaker 1: it meant you already had an aircraft that was manned
Speaker 1: that had to be traveling at this incredible speed before
Speaker 1: you even launched the unmanned vehicle during the test that
Speaker 1: the drones would actually land slash crash, usually on a
Speaker 1: nearby mountain, uh near Groom Lake during the actual tests,
Speaker 1: and so to retrieve it, they would send out another aircraft,
Speaker 1: usually I guess a helicopter, because it had to have
Speaker 1: some hovering capabilities, and they had para jumpers, but the
Speaker 1: jumpers wouldn't parachute. What they would do is they would
Speaker 1: lower down on lines from the aircraft hook the drone.
Speaker 1: You know, it had some you know, they would attach
Speaker 1: the line to the drone in some way, and then
Speaker 1: they would essentially tow the drones back to the facility
Speaker 1: so that you just didn't have these unmanned vehicles crashed
Speaker 1: on the side of mountains, which I'm sure would fuel
Speaker 1: even more speculation if they had been found by civilians, yeah,
Speaker 1: or god forbid, a rival government. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: so they were a cool idea, but like I said,
Speaker 1: it was really dangerous and kind of impractical. There's a
Speaker 1: high rate of attrition for these vehicles, just because I mean,
Speaker 1: think about it. We just named four big ifs in
Speaker 1: the takeoff, if the twelve survived, if the pilots cool,
Speaker 1: if it reaches the you know, if it reaches the
Speaker 1: speed sufficient to deploy, and if it deploys successfully. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And unfortunately, there was an accident in nineteen sixty six.
Speaker 1: It was a catastrophic failure. The drone, which I believe
Speaker 1: was top mounted onto an A twelve uh, ended up
Speaker 1: tilting downwards instead of upwards when it took off and
Speaker 1: cut the plane in half. Now, the two pilots inside
Speaker 1: that plane at this point, the the twelve was over
Speaker 1: the Pacific Ocean. It had flown out over the coast
Speaker 1: of California. The two pilots aboard the A twelve were
Speaker 1: able to eject successfully. However, one of the two tragically
Speaker 1: got caught up in his parachute line and drowned in
Speaker 1: the ocean. The other one had been rescued successfully. And
Speaker 1: the story is that Kelly Johnson, we talked about him
Speaker 1: in the first episode about Area fifty one. He's the
Speaker 1: guy from Lockheed who very much was the head of
Speaker 1: development at Area fifty one, this guy who designed the
Speaker 1: YouTube plane. Well, Kelly Johnson was so horrified at this accident.
Speaker 1: I mean, he really personally took it very very hard.
Speaker 1: That he reportedly shut down the project and then returned
Speaker 1: the project funding to the Air Force and the CIA,
Speaker 1: which is sort of unheard of in the world of contracting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that I had heard that. The phrase I read was
Speaker 1: emotionally and impulsively returned the funding. So I mean it
Speaker 1: was clear that he truly cared about the people who
Speaker 1: were working for him. So um, And that's something I
Speaker 1: think that's also important to remember is that we often
Speaker 1: in these stories we d personalized, dehumanize the folks who
Speaker 1: are involved in it. Because so much secrecy is there,
Speaker 1: we don't really know that much about the people involved.
Speaker 1: But these are people, right, and they're probably friends. They
Speaker 1: hang out, they probably eat together, things like you would
Speaker 1: do with your friends. Yeah, So it's it's good to
Speaker 1: have this, this touchstone to just remind ourselves that while
Speaker 1: we're talking about this, and while it lends itself to
Speaker 1: the whole discussion of shadowy government projects, ultimately we're not
Speaker 1: talking about these giant organizations that are somehow sentient on
Speaker 1: their own and acting without direction, their actual people behind,
Speaker 1: not some faceless octopus. But no, that's that's the S
Speaker 1: four facility, not area right, faceless octopus lake. Look it up,
Speaker 1: you know the that got a little love Craft dift.
Speaker 1: That's fair. So in nineteen six seven, a big thing happens, right,
Speaker 1: because the mission that we have always been trying to
Speaker 1: avoid in the United States at this time is to
Speaker 1: never have an aircraft captured, right. But conversely, we want
Speaker 1: to capture aircraft, right, and in fact we were able
Speaker 1: to do that. The very first MiG twenty one plane
Speaker 1: arrived at Groom Lake. So that's a Soviet aircraft. This
Speaker 1: is then the era of the USSR UM. You know,
Speaker 1: I I grew up in the eighties, so I grew
Speaker 1: up when the USSR was still a thing. And even
Speaker 1: at that point, even maybe especially in the eighties, something
Speaker 1: like the thought of a MiG twenty one being in
Speaker 1: US hands was a big big deal because it meant
Speaker 1: that we could see what are our opponent in the
Speaker 1: Cold War was capable of. You could see what the
Speaker 1: military capabilities of this aircraft were. And it meant that
Speaker 1: the Area fifty one became a testing ground not just
Speaker 1: for developing technology here in the United States, but also
Speaker 1: for foreign technology, so that we could really understand what
Speaker 1: the capabilities were and therefore design our stuff to meet
Speaker 1: and exceed those capabilities. So it becomes kind of this
Speaker 1: this game of uh, they get one square ahead, then
Speaker 1: we have to jump two squares ahead, and and what
Speaker 1: are they able to do? In what can't they do?
Speaker 1: And we're continually verse engineering. Right. So, with the arrival
Speaker 1: of Soviet aircraft at the Groom Lake facility, because this
Speaker 1: MiG would not be the only one, there would be
Speaker 1: other Soviet aircraft that would join it throughout the years,
Speaker 1: the pilots begin to have a new name for the
Speaker 1: restricted airspace, which in our last episode you may remember
Speaker 1: we talked about being the groom box or just the box.
Speaker 1: Now it's called Red Square because now it is the
Speaker 1: space the one place in the United States where you
Speaker 1: might see Soviet aircraft lying overhead. And again that starts
Speaker 1: to fuel a lot of conspiracy theories, because you'd see
Speaker 1: a jet that doesn't look like anything you would have
Speaker 1: seen here in the US, and you see it fly overhead,
Speaker 1: and you wonder, what the heck was that thing, and
Speaker 1: and that starts to you know, you start to fill
Speaker 1: in the blanks as much as you can. And if
Speaker 1: you're a veteran, then you say, uhlane, you go back
Speaker 1: to your to your your house, and you sit down
Speaker 1: your typewriter and you type up the first draft of
Speaker 1: Red Dawn, which one of us would reach that first.
Speaker 1: But of course with this they immediately begin uh retooling
Speaker 1: and working on new iterations of stealth craft. Right, right,
Speaker 1: so they're earlier there. Earlier plan had been reduced radar footprint,
Speaker 1: but mainly go go so fast that people can't shoot
Speaker 1: you down right. You know, that's a pretty simple plan,
Speaker 1: but it can be really effective. However, it can mean
Speaker 1: also that the aircraft itself is really dangerous, so they
Speaker 1: start looking at other ways of creating stealth technology, and
Speaker 1: engineers over at Lockheeds start to develop something called Have
Speaker 1: Blue which was a stealth aircraft, and it was a
Speaker 1: proof of concept aircraft. It wasn't meant to be a
Speaker 1: full production vehicle. Only to Have Blue aircraft were ever made,
Speaker 1: and they started as kind of ended up being a
Speaker 1: predecessor to the F one seventeen Nighthawk, which has another
Speaker 1: name that became famous in the early nineties that would
Speaker 1: be the stealth fighter. So this is the even though
Speaker 1: it was not really a fighter by the way, just
Speaker 1: the seal craft it was meant to. It was meant
Speaker 1: it was that air took around combat vehicle, not an
Speaker 1: air to air vehicle, which is what you would typically
Speaker 1: call a fighter, versus what the stealth what the Nighthawk
Speaker 1: actually was. So, and this is the one that if
Speaker 1: you look at the pictures that has all those crazy
Speaker 1: funky angles on it that are meant to deflect radar
Speaker 1: so that the returning radar signals don't go back to
Speaker 1: the receiving station, which means that the receiving station doesn't
Speaker 1: get an accurate representation of where the aircraft is. Right,
Speaker 1: they get something, but it's not anything you can concretely trace,
Speaker 1: and hopefully in theory, not something you can shoot at. Right, right,
Speaker 1: that's the whole point of it. So they have blue aircraft, uh,
Speaker 1: is that that predecessor, And so a lot of stealth
Speaker 1: technology was pioneered at Area fifty one Spade in the
Speaker 1: testing phase, because again a lot of this stuff would
Speaker 1: end up being built at Lockheed's other facilities and then
Speaker 1: transported over to Area fifty one for testing. We'll be
Speaker 1: back with more about the history of Area fifty one
Speaker 1: in just a moment, but first let's take a quick break.
Speaker 1: Now we're gonna skip ahead quite a bit. That was
Speaker 1: seventy seven with they have blue aircraft and eight two
Speaker 1: you have Tacit Blue, which it does? It does Tacit Blue.
Speaker 1: Come on, let's go fight the kaiju um. It's a
Speaker 1: still aircraft that was developed by Northrop. So this one
Speaker 1: was not a Lockheed aircraft, was a Northrop aircraft and
Speaker 1: that's also tested room like. Only one was ever built
Speaker 1: and it was retired in nineteen eighty five. So from
Speaker 1: two to eighty five this thing existed. Now we didn't
Speaker 1: know about it until nineties six, so this thing had
Speaker 1: been out of commission for more than a decade before
Speaker 1: the government said, oh, by the way, yeah we had
Speaker 1: this thing. It was a forerunner of the stealth technology
Speaker 1: that we use today. It's called Tacit Blue, and guys,
Speaker 1: you know, this is an audio podcast, which in some
Speaker 1: ways is great because it means you can listen to
Speaker 1: it whenever you're doing anything like jogging or driving and
Speaker 1: you're not missing it out on anything. But it also
Speaker 1: means that we can't do it justice by saying this
Speaker 1: thing looks weird. Go google tacit Blue and take a
Speaker 1: look at this aircraft, because it does not look like
Speaker 1: other aircraft. It just it's very oddly designed and shaped.
Speaker 1: So it certainly can tell you that the experiments and
Speaker 1: stealth technology were uh, they went in all sorts of
Speaker 1: you're looking at it right now, aren't you, isn't it? Yeah?
Speaker 1: It looks like if you've seen a sci fi film
Speaker 1: made in the seventies about how crazy the two thousands,
Speaker 1: so you're gonna be yea they would fly. You could
Speaker 1: see that plane flying overhead during clockwork orange. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: because with all the white uh, the white furniture that's
Speaker 1: in that. Yeah. So in nineteen eighty four, Area fifty one,
Speaker 1: the Groom Lake Facility petitions Congress for an additional eighty
Speaker 1: nine thousand acres of land. Meanwhile, you've got armed guards
Speaker 1: who patrol the area, essentially patrolling that additional eighty nine
Speaker 1: thousand acres, turning people away, even though it wouldn't be
Speaker 1: till seven that the request would actually be approved by Congress.
Speaker 1: So technically they were kind of acting like the land
Speaker 1: was theirs before it officially had become theirs. And you
Speaker 1: might wonder, well, why were they asking for all this land?
Speaker 1: I mean, besides being able to expand outward for the
Speaker 1: testing purposes. Part of it was that Area fifty one,
Speaker 1: by the eighties was starting to become one of those
Speaker 1: things that people were getting more and more interested in.
Speaker 1: Right exactly because at this time we see as some
Speaker 1: of the what will later become the big known conspiracy
Speaker 1: theories about Area fifty one or about Groom Lake. We
Speaker 1: see these taking roots route because there are now people
Speaker 1: who are able to say, well, I heard some rumors,
Speaker 1: I live nearby, I drove out there, and sure enough
Speaker 1: somebody showed up, uh and they'll say, I don't know,
Speaker 1: was that the United Nations or was that the US government?
Speaker 1: And they and they drove me away, And so now
Speaker 1: it begins to look like a real thing, and you
Speaker 1: still don't know exactly what's going on. Yeah, and there
Speaker 1: were a couple of of points, like natural um hills,
Speaker 1: natural ledges that were not too far from the facility
Speaker 1: that originally we're not we're not within that that border, right,
Speaker 1: so you could crawl up there. Yeah, if you hiked
Speaker 1: out there, which would be quite a hike anyway, but
Speaker 1: because you know, and you'd have to be pretty well
Speaker 1: equipped to do it, but you could, in theory, go
Speaker 1: and hike out it one of these little points of interest,
Speaker 1: set up a telescope or binoculars, and maybe not get
Speaker 1: a real good idea of what was going on, but
Speaker 1: at least see that there's activity going on. And especially
Speaker 1: if you're there towards dusk and you're looking out I mean,
Speaker 1: if you're looking out in the daytime, it's hard anyway,
Speaker 1: because you get a lot of distortion from the heat, sound,
Speaker 1: the desert. But at nighttime, if you're out there looking
Speaker 1: at it and everything's lit up, you could you can
Speaker 1: see that stuff is going on. You might even see
Speaker 1: aircraft taking off and landing, although you know, you might
Speaker 1: not have a real good look at what they how
Speaker 1: they're shaped. But it was one of those things that
Speaker 1: became a concern. And so while they didn't have official
Speaker 1: ownership of that land, they were discouraging people from being there.
Speaker 1: And by day, I mean, uh, some folks in camouflage.
Speaker 1: We'll talk about them in the Mythology episode because because
Speaker 1: they have they have a reputation, like they're called the
Speaker 1: Camo dudes. We'll talk about that. And it's not just
Speaker 1: not just a couple, there's actually quite a few of Almo. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's our teaser for part three exactly. So some citizens
Speaker 1: also point out that it's not strictly legal for them
Speaker 1: to be told to leave land that doesn't belong to
Speaker 1: the facility. You know, it's like the land has belong
Speaker 1: to you, so therefore, what what authority do you have
Speaker 1: to tell me to leave this place? Um, which that
Speaker 1: would end up fueling the facility really petitioning to get
Speaker 1: access to this this right. And and you know, realistically,
Speaker 1: if somebody were to go to uh Quarter or to
Speaker 1: local law enforcement and say, hey, what's going on here.
Speaker 1: There is no chance that it would go anywhere, and
Speaker 1: the those suspicions is very interesting. Those suspicions and those
Speaker 1: concerns were finally verified in Yeah. So all through this
Speaker 1: time the government is still saying there's nothing out there,
Speaker 1: or that they cannot comment on it, or that it's
Speaker 1: a weather station, that anything other than what it actually is. Right,
Speaker 1: and internally, at the same time, they're telling each other,
Speaker 1: we have to keep security at the maximum level, the
Speaker 1: most unreasonable level, because people cannot find out about this,
Speaker 1: and if we slip at all, someone will, yeah, and
Speaker 1: then lives. National security, everything's at stake. So that included
Speaker 1: telling companies that operated satellites, hey, this this area of Nevada,
Speaker 1: you can't photograph that. You cannot image that, and either
Speaker 1: they would prevent companies from imaging that whole area of Nevada,
Speaker 1: or if those images were gathered, they would demand to
Speaker 1: have them censored so that the facility itself would not
Speaker 1: show up on satellite photography, which worked fine until when
Speaker 1: a Soviet satellite flew overhead and took images of very
Speaker 1: fifty one. Here's the thing that the CIA finds a
Speaker 1: little frustrating. They do not have authority over the of
Speaker 1: the union. If they did, their jobs would be so
Speaker 1: much easier during this time. But because the Soviets ended
Speaker 1: up flying a satellite overhead taking images, it meant that
Speaker 1: the cat was out of the bag. So those images
Speaker 1: would end up being published in an article for Popular Science,
Speaker 1: which was the first time that most people got a
Speaker 1: real look and granted a far overhead look of what
Speaker 1: area fifty one actually looks like. You haven't had a
Speaker 1: few people try and sneak some photos here and there
Speaker 1: from a great distance. But one thing, if you're really
Speaker 1: far out and you're taking a picture of a facility
Speaker 1: that's way the heck out there, you have no sense
Speaker 1: of scale. You have no real idea of what you know.
Speaker 1: You just see a bunch of bumps and you're like, yeah,
Speaker 1: there's clearly something there, but I don't have any feel
Speaker 1: for what it is. This gave you an idea of
Speaker 1: what the actual layout was. You could see hangars, you
Speaker 1: could see where the housing units where, you could see
Speaker 1: the the the runways, so it actually showed what the
Speaker 1: general layout was. Now, granted, that's not good enough for
Speaker 1: some people. We'll talk about that in the Mythology and
Speaker 1: a lot of people saying, well, what do you not see?
Speaker 1: So now though as you as you said, uh, the
Speaker 1: Pandora boxes open, the cat is out of the bag,
Speaker 1: and this is the beginning of a well, depending on
Speaker 1: what you what perspective you're looking at this from, is
Speaker 1: either a watershed moment or a disastrous moment because now
Speaker 1: we see, uh, people who are not Soviets start to
Speaker 1: go public. Yeah. Yeah, in this case, it's a story
Speaker 1: that that involves tragedy. So in nine there was an
Speaker 1: Area fifty one employee named Robert Frost who passed away,
Speaker 1: and he wasn't the only one. There were other There
Speaker 1: was another employee who passed away and several who reported
Speaker 1: having serious health issues because what they had. Their story
Speaker 1: was that what they had to do was deal with
Speaker 1: um uh various pieces of equipment and fuel and things
Speaker 1: like that and destroy them by incinerating the incinerating them
Speaker 1: by essentially burning them in a pile, and then sifting
Speaker 1: through all of that pile, burning anything that was left
Speaker 1: over because the smallest trace could give someone an indication
Speaker 1: of what was going on at the facility. So they
Speaker 1: couldn't keep anything. They couldn't they couldn't send anything out
Speaker 1: to be destroyed. They had to destroy it all on site. Well,
Speaker 1: a lot of those materials were toxic, and even if
Speaker 1: they weren't toxic before you set them on fire, they
Speaker 1: became toxic once they were burning. So it meant that
Speaker 1: a lot of these employees were exposed to toxic elements.
Speaker 1: And they apparently according to the allegations laid by the
Speaker 1: former employees and and there's you know, their former spouses
Speaker 1: who lost their spouses as that part of this, Mrs
Speaker 1: Frost in this case. Yeah, so they have at least
Speaker 1: alleged that the workers were not given access to appropriate
Speaker 1: gear that would protect them from the toxicity. And in fact,
Speaker 1: they were essentially told, we don't have anything for you.
Speaker 1: This has to be burned. Burn it. So they ended
Speaker 1: up grouping together and filing a lawsuit against the government
Speaker 1: and they said, you know, this is unconscionable that this happened,
Speaker 1: these these conditions existed, and they sought damages against the government. Well,
Speaker 1: the government's response was that because of the nature of
Speaker 1: what goes on at this facility, they could not go
Speaker 1: forward with this um this lawsuit because it would it
Speaker 1: would mean revealing things that were state secrets that could
Speaker 1: endanger national security, and the judges have agreed with this
Speaker 1: and dismissed cases on the basis that pursuing such a
Speaker 1: case would be a danger to national security, which has
Speaker 1: led critics to point out, and I think rightfully so,
Speaker 1: that this gives the government a get out of jail
Speaker 1: free card, get out of accountability free cards. Sure, if
Speaker 1: you are able to claim that whatever you did you
Speaker 1: did in the name of national security and that having
Speaker 1: to defend yourself would put that security at risk, and
Speaker 1: that means you are no longer accountable, that's a terrible precedent. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's dangerous. And also on the other side, there
Speaker 1: is a legitimate concern because I think this is a
Speaker 1: big misstep on Uncle Sam's part because let's just construct
Speaker 1: the speculative situation here. How did these people end up
Speaker 1: getting exposed these toxic chemicals? They said they did not
Speaker 1: have informed consent. Essentially, does that tie into the need
Speaker 1: to know stuff? Were they concerned that if they said
Speaker 1: what these chemicals are and their toxicity, this would somehow
Speaker 1: get back to a foreign power. Yeah, and we've gotten
Speaker 1: to a point now where everyone knows what is going
Speaker 1: on at a high level at a right. You know,
Speaker 1: Area fifty one is a testing grounds for new technology,
Speaker 1: specifically aircraft technology, whether it's manned or unmanned. We know
Speaker 1: that that's a fact. So the question then becomes, well,
Speaker 1: couldn't we have this case framed in such a way
Speaker 1: where that where the specifics remain top secret. We don't
Speaker 1: need to get into the specifics of what the vehicles were.
Speaker 1: We we just need to address whether or not in
Speaker 1: fact workers were exposed to toxic conditions without without sufficient
Speaker 1: resources to deal with it. Law. Yeah, that that's really
Speaker 1: all we have to to focus on, and then these
Speaker 1: sort of questions could be answered that way. But that's
Speaker 1: not how it played out, and in fact, uh, these
Speaker 1: things have become even more of a concern in the
Speaker 1: post nine eleven world where transparency is even harder to
Speaker 1: come by in certain fields of government. So, you know,
Speaker 1: you do have to balance out the transparency to the
Speaker 1: national security, But when it comes down to people's lives
Speaker 1: and saying well, you know this, this is this is
Speaker 1: an example of where we could say the government is
Speaker 1: wronging the citizens that it's supposed to represent. Then that
Speaker 1: that's a whole other question. Now, it could end up
Speaker 1: being that the government ends up accommodating various workers and
Speaker 1: families and other ways that are very quiet that we
Speaker 1: don't know about. That could happen, but we don't know that, right,
Speaker 1: and the the implications I've seen suggest that that had
Speaker 1: not happened. But moving on, Uh, you know, it's it's
Speaker 1: I certainly don't want to be the one who has
Speaker 1: to make the decisions, so I argue like this is
Speaker 1: a simple thing, but clearly it's a very complex matter.
Speaker 1: So in every fifty one would acquire two sites. These
Speaker 1: are two of those sites that I had talked about
Speaker 1: being kind of a problem for Area fifty one. Uh,
Speaker 1: there was Freedom Ridge and white Side's Peak. Both of
Speaker 1: those had been popular spots for people, and by popular,
Speaker 1: I mean a few times a year, so folks would
Speaker 1: go out there with binoculars. Um, these have been spots
Speaker 1: where people would go and try and get a distant look. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think the closest you can get to Area fifty
Speaker 1: one right now. And I may even be wrong about this,
Speaker 1: It might not be that accurate at this point, but
Speaker 1: I believe it's twenty six miles away right so you
Speaker 1: cannot snatch a photograph and that's what you mean, there's
Speaker 1: legally yeah, yeah, yeah, if you were to trespass, it
Speaker 1: would be really stupid. And we're saying, we're not saying
Speaker 1: do it. In fact, Jonathan, both you and I are
Speaker 1: emphatically saying, don't ever go there unless you are specifically
Speaker 1: invited told by someone who is in charge. If you
Speaker 1: work there, go ahead and go. It's your job. So
Speaker 1: um yeah, But at any rate, it's it's definitely one
Speaker 1: of those things where if you are not invited, you
Speaker 1: do not go are So in two thousand thirteen, there
Speaker 1: was a declassified ci A document, actually a group of
Speaker 1: documents that referred to Area fifty one by that very name. Again,
Speaker 1: may have been a mistake that that part hadn't been
Speaker 1: just blacked out. But Jonathan, this this two thousand thirteen thing,
Speaker 1: which is very recent. It happened several several years after
Speaker 1: another point, a legislative point that I think is very
Speaker 1: important to underline. With some people's favorite presidents, some people's
Speaker 1: least favorite president, our boy saxophonist extraordinaire, William Clinton, Yeah,
Speaker 1: good old Bill So Clinton had signed an act into
Speaker 1: law that puts Area fifty one beyond investigation and legislation
Speaker 1: to preserve national security, which means there were a lot
Speaker 1: of different organizations that were trying to get access out
Speaker 1: of out of various concerns. You had people who were
Speaker 1: concerned for the health of the workers, like the lawsuits
Speaker 1: that we had mentioned. There are also environmental all concerns,
Speaker 1: so environmentalists and environmental agencies that wanted to make sure
Speaker 1: that the facility was following appropriate measures to make to
Speaker 1: make sure it wasn't polluting the area, wasn't affecting water tables,
Speaker 1: wasn't affecting the ecosystem. Because when you hear here things
Speaker 1: like they're burning toxic materials, that raises a lot of flags.
Speaker 1: And Clinton's Act essentially said it doesn't matter. You're not
Speaker 1: gonna You're not gonna get the clearance to investigate this,
Speaker 1: So whether something is going on or not, you're never
Speaker 1: gonna know. And essentially every president since then has backed
Speaker 1: that up, because again, it's one of those national security
Speaker 1: issues where you say, all right, I have to make
Speaker 1: a call. Do I call it on the side of
Speaker 1: national security, which a lot of people think is kind
Speaker 1: of a cop out answer. Yeah, Like it's again, like
Speaker 1: it's a way to just avoid accountability. That's how it
Speaker 1: can often be perceived. And maybe the truth is that, no,
Speaker 1: it really is a matter of national security. It's just
Speaker 1: hard to appreciate when you don't know, right and you
Speaker 1: can't know because if you did know, it would no
Speaker 1: longer be safe. And you don't know what you don't know,
Speaker 1: the old unknown unknown, Yeah, exactly, So, Uh, well, we
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm pretty I'm pretty firm on what
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's it's a lot your authority on
Speaker 1: what you Yeah, I could write a book on what
Speaker 1: I don't know. But what you do know. Um, what
Speaker 1: we have we've looked at here so far is that, um,
Speaker 1: hopefully we've we've done a pretty bang up job of
Speaker 1: going through the facts. You know enough, I think to
Speaker 1: give us a hypothetical or high level look at what
Speaker 1: it would be like if Jonathan Strickland worked at Groom
Speaker 1: Lake and and and just uncle Sam, if you're listening,
Speaker 1: he doesn't I do not know. But here here's kind
Speaker 1: of what it would sound like according to the few
Speaker 1: accounts that we have that seemed credible. Keep in mind
Speaker 1: there are a lot of people who have claimed to
Speaker 1: have worked at Groom Lake at one time or another
Speaker 1: who may or may not have actually worked at Groom Lake.
Speaker 1: But let's say that. Let's say i'm i'm I'm working there.
Speaker 1: This is kind of what the perhaps the the orientation
Speaker 1: video would go. Hi, so you've decided to work at
Speaker 1: Groom Lake. Welcome to the team. When you turn in
Speaker 1: on Monday morning at the McCarron Airport in Las Vegas,
Speaker 1: you'll go straight to a secret area. Well, you'll board
Speaker 1: a Janet aircraft. Janet is the call sign. It's just
Speaker 1: a white plane with a red stripe. Then it's just
Speaker 1: a quick johnt to the airport over at Area fifty one.
Speaker 1: You'll get off the aircraft and go straight to work.
Speaker 1: Don't look around because all that other stuff is secret.
Speaker 1: You will work exactly on the projects you've been assigned
Speaker 1: and on nothing else. In your spare time, maybe you'd
Speaker 1: like to play some baseball, perhaps tennis, go for a swim,
Speaker 1: or visit a wonderful cafeteria. All the amenities you can
Speaker 1: imagine are available at Area fifty one. So that would
Speaker 1: be kind of the beginning. Yeah, that was great. I
Speaker 1: hope I wasn't, but um, but yeah, everything you're saying
Speaker 1: is is spot on? These seven thirty seven's are always
Speaker 1: called Janets. Yeah, it's it's that's the call sign, so
Speaker 1: people refer to it as Janet Airlines, But these are
Speaker 1: that's not an official company name, it's that they contracted
Speaker 1: seven thirty seven's. If you want to be a flight
Speaker 1: attendant on one of these, you have to go through
Speaker 1: the same sort of background check you would if you
Speaker 1: were to work at Area one. In fact, you would
Speaker 1: have to make sure that you got that top secret
Speaker 1: classification clearance because you were going to come into contact
Speaker 1: with folks who are working on top secret projects. So
Speaker 1: you have to be you have to prove that you're trustworthy.
Speaker 1: It's time for another quick break, but we will be
Speaker 1: right back with more about the history of Area fifty one.
Speaker 1: There are, like I said, some amenities. They have a gym,
Speaker 1: they've got a movie theater. The pool they use is
Speaker 1: mostly used for training purposes for pilots to train for
Speaker 1: what would happen if they eject over water. Yea, So
Speaker 1: things like new flight suits that are designed for high
Speaker 1: altitude flying. You know, they had to make new flight
Speaker 1: suits because people, pilots were suddenly flying at altitudes that
Speaker 1: no human had ever gone to before, or at least
Speaker 1: not I had gone to for a sustained amount of time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so they had to they had to say, well, what
Speaker 1: happens if they have to eject over water? Can they
Speaker 1: get out? Is those suit going to weigh them down?
Speaker 1: And the way they tested is they'd essentially have pilots
Speaker 1: fall from a great height into a pool while wearing
Speaker 1: one of those bots, and they've tested out that way,
Speaker 1: so um so, probably not going for a pleasure swim,
Speaker 1: although from what I understand, some of the some of
Speaker 1: the people who are running who are running the programs,
Speaker 1: actually did have their pilots go for a swim first
Speaker 1: before going on a a mission, just to help kind
Speaker 1: of kind of focus themselves. So it all depends. The food,
Speaker 1: like I said, was supposedly really good apparently, and I
Speaker 1: have no idea if this is true, but apparently if
Speaker 1: the test flight involved going to some remote location like Maine,
Speaker 1: the pilots would sometimes bring back lobsters and so you
Speaker 1: would end up being able to have fresh lobster them
Speaker 1: and caught that morning in a desert in Nevada. But now,
Speaker 1: of course, for people who are listening to the series,
Speaker 1: you notice that we've mentioned, the early planes were very,
Speaker 1: very difficult and in some cases impossible to land to
Speaker 1: stop over. So it just makes you think about how
Speaker 1: far this technology has gone, because it makes me think
Speaker 1: where did they land these planes? Where? If you're working
Speaker 1: on a top secret aircraft, where do you land in
Speaker 1: Maine where you could go pick up some lobster and
Speaker 1: come back. I mean I heard the story, but I
Speaker 1: just don't know how that worked. And how do you
Speaker 1: give a lobster security clearance? Right? I mean those guys
Speaker 1: loose mandible sink ships. But uh and and also I
Speaker 1: mentioned that Area fifty one has a black budget project.
Speaker 1: So there have been several people who have reported that
Speaker 1: the way they were paid was in cash, that they
Speaker 1: were not given a check, because a check would mean
Speaker 1: that it's traceable to a specific organization, whatever that might be,
Speaker 1: whether it's Lockheed or it's c I A or whatever.
Speaker 1: Which that that happens in Yeah, yeah, No, you have
Speaker 1: you have people who collect intelligence who just pour over paperwork.
Speaker 1: Not all spying involves dressing in a tuxedo and betting
Speaker 1: on black I mean some spying is pouring over countless
Speaker 1: documents trying to look for hints at what's going on underneath.
Speaker 1: In fact, yeah, yeah, a great deal. Of course, a
Speaker 1: lot of it now has been relegated to algorithms, which
Speaker 1: means that the poor clerks don't have to do it anymore,
Speaker 1: but at any rate. So you might get paid in cash,
Speaker 1: and you might be told that whenever you sign for anything,
Speaker 1: you have to use an assumed name Josh Clark. When
Speaker 1: I sign everything, Josh doesn't realize this be co signed
Speaker 1: alone from my house. So, um, that's totally not true.
Speaker 1: Uh so, yeah, the it's they take their secrecy seriously
Speaker 1: all the way from the very high level we're talking
Speaker 1: like all that that restricted airspace that goes all the
Speaker 1: way up to space to how they pay the employees. Now,
Speaker 1: that doesn't say that doesn't mean that everything we've said
Speaker 1: today is accurate for how things work at Area fifty
Speaker 1: one today. Most of the information we have dates from
Speaker 1: folks who are discussing things that happen back in the
Speaker 1: sixties or seventies. Because they take the secrecy so serious
Speaker 1: lee and because people are signing over oaths that say
Speaker 1: they will not under any circumstances share the information, it
Speaker 1: means that we don't have up to date information. Now,
Speaker 1: I imagine that most of what's going on at Area
Speaker 1: fifty one these days probably involves a lot more onmanned drones.
Speaker 1: I think that's probably one of the big things that
Speaker 1: are under development there, and it really since it is
Speaker 1: an aircraft facility, I imagine that that's mostly what we're seeing.
Speaker 1: You know, there are a lot of people who suggest
Speaker 1: that other types of UH technology are under development Area
Speaker 1: fifty one, but that's really not what it's set up
Speaker 1: to do, right. Yeah, when you set up a facility
Speaker 1: like that there, it goes back to us talking about
Speaker 1: the specialization of these various aircraft. The base is the same.
Speaker 1: A base has to specialize. It can't be all things
Speaker 1: to all projects. So, for instance, another an unmanned UH
Speaker 1: space project that's going on now, the X there five B.
Speaker 1: I think it is UH, and I'm gonna double check
Speaker 1: while we're talking here. UH. That is something that goes
Speaker 1: into space. It requires a platform capable of launching it
Speaker 1: into near Earth orbit, right, So it was how would
Speaker 1: you do that? You wouldn't be able to do that
Speaker 1: at a facility like Area fifty one that doesn't have it,
Speaker 1: and if it did have it, you would you know,
Speaker 1: you would have to be further out than twenty five
Speaker 1: miles to not notice exactly. So a lot of the
Speaker 1: I think a lot of the drones that you'll that
Speaker 1: would be under development at Area fifty one would either
Speaker 1: be lower altitude drones or they would be like the
Speaker 1: old D twenty one where it was launched from a
Speaker 1: larger vehicle. Right, Yeah, and we're talking about U A v.
Speaker 1: S at this point, the Predator or something. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: the which is a name for you A v folks,
Speaker 1: not the not the movie, right they that's actually uh,
Speaker 1: Area fifty one is where they conceived and shot the Predator.
Speaker 1: It's also the fantastic location for the film Into Pay Stay.
Speaker 1: Uh sorry, that's okay. So we are not done with
Speaker 1: Area fifty one yet. We have covered the history as
Speaker 1: much of the real history as is known that we
Speaker 1: can talk about. Um. There of course a lot more
Speaker 1: details on all of these stories, and there's some fantastic
Speaker 1: books that have been written about the subject where people
Speaker 1: have meticulously researched all the available information and piece together
Speaker 1: as much as they could to get as as close
Speaker 1: to a full story as you can get without being
Speaker 1: on the inside. But we aren't done there because in
Speaker 1: our next episode, Ben and I are going to uh,
Speaker 1: we're going to explore the mythology a Very fifty one
Speaker 1: and the fact that you know, in in pop culture,
Speaker 1: we think of it as not just a place where
Speaker 1: spy technology was tested or and is still tested, but
Speaker 1: a place where other worldly technology may resign. Right, yes,
Speaker 1: And that goes along with some of the some of
Speaker 1: the very very range things that you have probably heard
Speaker 1: in your own day to day life about Area fifty one.
Speaker 1: When we say otherworldly, we don't just mean this dimension either. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it could. It could be pretty weird, and they range
Speaker 1: from things that you you could say, I can see
Speaker 1: why people believe that too. How is how was this
Speaker 1: ever an idea that someone had? Uh, There's a pretty
Speaker 1: pretty dynamic range there, So I look forward to having
Speaker 1: that discussion with you. Ben. We're going to end our
Speaker 1: recording for today and and conclude, but um, just just
Speaker 1: out of curiosity before we close the door on the
Speaker 1: the as much of the real story of Very fifty
Speaker 1: one as we can know, what do you think? What
Speaker 1: do you think about? What are your thoughts when you
Speaker 1: hear Area fifty one? Okay, yeah, thank you? The the
Speaker 1: gist of Area fifty one. We've we've explored us some
Speaker 1: of the effects that secrecy have on people's the way
Speaker 1: they frame questions and the way they address you. UM,
Speaker 1: I think it's clear that there is a grain of
Speaker 1: truth to some of the beliefs, unfounded as they may
Speaker 1: be about Area fifty one. We do know that there
Speaker 1: is secret technology being tested there, absolutely right. We know
Speaker 1: that it is. UM. It's it's not unreasonable to assume
Speaker 1: that it is several years ahead of what we would
Speaker 1: consider current publicly known pioneering research. And I would add
Speaker 1: to that that UM, when we when we say that
Speaker 1: there is a grain of truth to these things, what
Speaker 1: we're talking about more is similar to a piece of
Speaker 1: sand getting inside of CShell building a pearl. There's so
Speaker 1: much embellishment that occurs that at some point people will
Speaker 1: consciously dismiss the actual explanation. Where there's so much excitement
Speaker 1: about the embellishment and people fall in love with these
Speaker 1: stories that it can be difficult at times for them
Speaker 1: to admit when we say, oh, we have found the
Speaker 1: grain of sand called Project Mogul or something like right,
Speaker 1: and so as a result, we we run into what
Speaker 1: really is a new mythology that perpetuates itself, and honestly,
Speaker 1: the government is not helping with that at all. But then,
Speaker 1: to be fair, I think the government has a vested
Speaker 1: interest in letting that go as long as it needs
Speaker 1: to go, because if that means that the attention is
Speaker 1: put on something that is not real while they can
Speaker 1: work on very real but very secret projects, it benefits, right, Like,
Speaker 1: there's there's not a whole lot of incentive to say
Speaker 1: you are completely wrong. And here's why when they could
Speaker 1: say we, you know, we have no comment on that,
Speaker 1: which gives them the benefit of saying we didn't. We
Speaker 1: didn't confirm it, we didn't really deny it strongly. I there,
Speaker 1: at the same time, we can continue our work on
Speaker 1: the very secret stuff that we actually need to develop. Um.
Speaker 1: I personally think that such a such a facility like
Speaker 1: Area fifty one, in a world where spying is uh
Speaker 1: necessary evil, that it's absolutely the perfect, the perfect facility
Speaker 1: for that because it has stood the test of time.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, the idea of something that was
Speaker 1: built in the fifties still maintaining this level of mystique,
Speaker 1: you know, five more than five decades later, is pretty incredible,
Speaker 1: So it's it's pretty It's a fascinating subject to me.
Speaker 1: I love the idea of these engineers working to meet
Speaker 1: seemingly unachievable goals. I mean, the idea of the idea
Speaker 1: of creating an aircraft that could defy radar was was
Speaker 1: a real eye opener. And you know, you've got to
Speaker 1: keep in mind that the United States had that technology
Speaker 1: years before we ever had any public unveiling of it.
Speaker 1: So that's pretty exciting stuff. And uh, I love the
Speaker 1: idea of it. I do think that the operation of
Speaker 1: it lends itself to some potential misuses of power. I
Speaker 1: really do think that this, this use of national security
Speaker 1: to kind of um distance yourself from any culpability is
Speaker 1: a little distasteful. Well yeah, I mean, national security is
Speaker 1: the way I like to think of it. Often in
Speaker 1: the post nine eleven world, national security has been become
Speaker 1: the equivalent of hitting base in the Great Game of
Speaker 1: Tag than this national discourse. So one one other thing
Speaker 1: that I wanted to ask you, and again, as always,
Speaker 1: thank you for having me on the show. I wanted
Speaker 1: to ask you, do you think that people should be
Speaker 1: people who let me phrase this correctly, people I wanted
Speaker 1: to ask you, what do you think about the scrutiny
Speaker 1: regarding Area of Fife or Groom Lake, because it's pretty
Speaker 1: well known right now, so I think that the question
Speaker 1: is what else is out there? And my question is
Speaker 1: do you think that there are other lesser known places
Speaker 1: where um, not the bulk of the work, but other
Speaker 1: work is taking place? Absolutely? Oh yeah. I mean Area
Speaker 1: fifty one is really a testing ground. So if you're
Speaker 1: talking about actual research and development to the point of
Speaker 1: before you even built something, where you're just figuring out prototypes.
Speaker 1: There are facilities all over the United States that are
Speaker 1: involved in that in some way or another, Like Lockheed
Speaker 1: has has areas that they have famously disguised from the
Speaker 1: air so that you couldn't see what was going on
Speaker 1: or where where even a building was. But they're not
Speaker 1: the only one by a long shot. I mean there's
Speaker 1: their companies and organizations um, as well as as actual
Speaker 1: military facilities that are just as secretive as Area fifty
Speaker 1: one is, but perhaps don't have the same level of mystique, right.
Speaker 1: I mean, when you're talking about aircraft and you're seeing
Speaker 1: weird things fly overhead, that definitely brings some questions to mind.
Speaker 1: If it's a facility that you can't really see and
Speaker 1: all the stuff they do is ground related, it's not
Speaker 1: going to gain that same level of attention. And that
Speaker 1: wraps up this classic episode, the History of Area fifty one,
Speaker 1: Part two. Next week we're going to go into some
Speaker 1: of the more creative theories and hypotheses about what was
Speaker 1: going on at Area fifty one, So make sure you
Speaker 1: tune into that. And if you have suggestions for topics
Speaker 1: I should cover and current Tech Stuff episodes, reach out
Speaker 1: to me. The best way to do that is over
Speaker 1: on Twitter. The handle for the show is Text Stuff
Speaker 1: hs W and I'll talk to you again. Release. Text
Speaker 1: Stuff is an I Heart Radio production. For more podcasts
Speaker 1: from my Heart Radio, visit the i Heart Radio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.