Speaker 1: Hi, get everybody. I'm Dan Horde and thanks for downloading
Speaker 1: the Bengals boot Podcast. The I want to be in
Speaker 1: the room where it happens, the room where it happens,
Speaker 1: The room where it happens. Addition, as we take you
Speaker 1: inside the Bengals war room during the NFL Draft with
Speaker 1: Greg Seaman, who is a Bengal scout for more than
Speaker 1: a decade. He shares some great stories about Cincinnati selecting
Speaker 1: Andrew Whitworth and Giovanni Bernard and also discusses why things
Speaker 1: didn't work out in twenty fifteen when the team's first
Speaker 1: two picks were Cedric Obwihi and Jake Fisher. Then I'll
Speaker 1: be joined by Tony Pauline, the senior draft analyst for
Speaker 1: Pro Football Network dot Com, who makes the case for
Speaker 1: why the Bengals should not draft Iowa center Tyler Linderbaum
Speaker 1: in round one. The Bengals Booth Podcast is presented by
Speaker 1: Ultimate Bengals. Download Ultimate Bengals ahead of the twenty twenty
Speaker 1: two season. It's free to play next level fantasy football
Speaker 1: with fantastic Bengals prizes. Get it now on the App
Speaker 1: Store and Google Play. And here's a quick reminder that
Speaker 1: you can have the latest edition of this podcast delivered
Speaker 1: right to your phone, tablet, or computer by subscribing wherever
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. It's the greatest thing since Wettle.
Speaker 1: I'm guessing that many of you are playing the game Wardle,
Speaker 1: where you have to figure out a five letter word
Speaker 1: in six tries at the risk of bragging. As of
Speaker 1: this morning, I'm sixty one for sixty one. Because of
Speaker 1: the popularity of Wardle, a bunch of similar games have
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Speaker 1: former Pro Bowl safety Eric Weddle. In Wettle, you have
Speaker 1: eight tries to figure out the identity of an NFL player,
Speaker 1: with clues involving their team, division, position, height, age, and
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Speaker 1: it'll pop right up. I'm three for three so far.
Speaker 1: Now time to take you inside the Bengals draft room
Speaker 1: with former scout Greg Seaman, who was in the room
Speaker 1: where it happens for thirteen drafts from two thousand and
Speaker 1: three to twenty fifteen. Right, we got to know each other.
Speaker 1: When you're the offensive coordinator and you see under Rick Mentor,
Speaker 1: I've never asked you this question, how did you wind
Speaker 1: up in the Bengals personnel department after? You see, I
Speaker 1: was the offensive coordinator at Miamis, Ohio. But in that
Speaker 1: six year period there, I spent a lot of time
Speaker 1: with the Bengals with Bruce Consult and Ken Anderson, who
Speaker 1: were coaching. Was coaching the quarterbacks, and I wanted to
Speaker 1: learn in detail the West Coast system that Sam why
Speaker 1: should implement it? And we were using some of that
Speaker 1: the last couple of years I was at UC and
Speaker 1: then we used it almost exclusively when I went to Miami,
Speaker 1: so I developed a relationship with those folks. In two
Speaker 1: thousand and two, Bruce Coslo became the offensive coordinator of
Speaker 1: the Dallas Cowboys and offered me a job there, coaching
Speaker 1: the tight ends, and I went down there not knowing
Speaker 1: that it was the last year of the head coach's
Speaker 1: contract and they were about to hire Bill Parcel. So
Speaker 1: it was a short tenure in Dallas. But when that
Speaker 1: was over, I really wanted to be back in the
Speaker 1: Cincinnati area. I hadn't it's home for me, Southeast Indiana,
Speaker 1: and I had there were no It was a tough
Speaker 1: year looking for a coaching job, and Bruce did me
Speaker 1: a real favor. He called Mike Brown and Marvin Lewis,
Speaker 1: who had just been hired, and gave me a good recommendation.
Speaker 1: I had a year left on a Dallas contract, so
Speaker 1: I interviewed. Mike called me actually and invited me to
Speaker 1: come to Paul Brown Stadium. I interviewed with him and
Speaker 1: with Marvin, and at that point the Bes had never
Speaker 1: had an advanced scout, someone that would study thoroughly an
Speaker 1: upcoming opponent and then on Mondays sit down with the
Speaker 1: offensive staff, the defensive staff, and then with Darren Simmons,
Speaker 1: a special teams coordinator, and go over what you knew
Speaker 1: about them, what you had learned for the previous week.
Speaker 1: So I did that in two thousand and three and
Speaker 1: really enjoyed it. It kept me connected with coaches and
Speaker 1: it was just it was a fun job. And after
Speaker 1: that they decided to expand the player personnel department by
Speaker 1: thirty three percent. Because there was Lippy Jill Lippincott, and
Speaker 1: there was Duke, and then there was myself, and then
Speaker 1: we added another young guy a year or so later,
Speaker 1: so it really kind of rounded things out for me
Speaker 1: because I still did a lot of the advanced scouting
Speaker 1: I was doing college scouting and we were doing pro scouting,
Speaker 1: and you were intimately involved in what was going on
Speaker 1: with the team and then also of course with the draft,
Speaker 1: and that just kind of blossomed. It became something I
Speaker 1: really enjoyed. And I have three amazing daughters, and they
Speaker 1: were all in school, great elementary school, going into junior high.
Speaker 1: They had after school activities, and it afforded me the
Speaker 1: opportunity to be involved with a lot of the things
Speaker 1: that I probably wouldn't have had the opportunity to do
Speaker 1: were I just coaching. So it was a winding road,
Speaker 1: but it started with a relationship with Kim and with Bruce.
Speaker 1: So were you in the draft room in two thousand
Speaker 1: and three Marvin's first draft when they selected Carson Palmer
Speaker 1: number one overall. I was, and I wasn't a part
Speaker 1: of the all the work that had been done, but
Speaker 1: that decision was an easy one and I and a
Speaker 1: wonderful approach. I thought by Marvin um In that this
Speaker 1: guy is going to be a great quarterback. And we are.
Speaker 1: We are a team in transition. You know, we're not
Speaker 1: as good as we'd like to be. Yet we're not
Speaker 1: going to subject this guy to going out and getting
Speaker 1: sacked fifty or sixty times in the year we had
Speaker 1: John Kittman, who was a good quarterback and a really
Speaker 1: good professional. And I think to this day if people
Speaker 1: ask Carson, he has always said that worked out really
Speaker 1: well for him. He'd learned so much that year and
Speaker 1: just watching John's approach and how John handled situations during
Speaker 1: the ballgame, communication with the coaches. So yeah, that was
Speaker 1: that was a no doubter and ended up being a
Speaker 1: very good pick. So the following year two thousand and four,
Speaker 1: was that the first time that you were really involved
Speaker 1: with the draft process? Yes, sir, what do you remember
Speaker 1: about that first draft where you're in the room and
Speaker 1: you're you're voicing your opinion and you know, really invested
Speaker 1: in every selection. You are as a guy early and
Speaker 1: you're that part of your career, you're reluctant to say
Speaker 1: much of anything. There's a there's a certain paranoia, a
Speaker 1: healthy one when it comes to the draft room on
Speaker 1: draft day. You don't want to screw anything up and
Speaker 1: you don't want to throw out the window all the
Speaker 1: preparation that has been done prior to that. So early
Speaker 1: in your career you are to speak when called upon
Speaker 1: and otherwise, what's the old Mark Twain saying it's better
Speaker 1: to be silent and thought a fool than to open
Speaker 1: your mouth and confirm it. So I was very happy
Speaker 1: to sit there and snack and what's the goings on
Speaker 1: and try to learn how this all works. Our guest
Speaker 1: is Greg Seeman, a former Bengal scout who is in
Speaker 1: the Bengals draft room for thirteen years. What's Mike Brown
Speaker 1: like during the draft? Mike is calm, thoughtful, he is
Speaker 1: He's really good at asking questions, posing the Okay, if
Speaker 1: it comes to this, do you want player A or
Speaker 1: player B with this pick? And why he is steady?
Speaker 1: I think Mike he grew up with the old Cleveland
Speaker 1: Browns as a kid. I mean he hung out with
Speaker 1: Dante Loobelly and the guys on the team, and so
Speaker 1: he's been around it literally his entire life, and so
Speaker 1: there's not a lot that would surprise him. And when
Speaker 1: his father was the head coach of the of the
Speaker 1: Bengals and the general manager, Mike and his brother Pete
Speaker 1: did all of the scouting. The coaches were involved after
Speaker 1: the season, but the preparation leading up to that was
Speaker 1: Mike and Pete. So there's not a in that particular
Speaker 1: room amongst the personnel guys, there's not a job that
Speaker 1: he hadn't already done, and so there's a wealth of
Speaker 1: experience and knowledge there. I didn't get to know his
Speaker 1: brother Pete very well, but he was known for his
Speaker 1: draft acumen. How big was his role during those years.
Speaker 1: I think that his voice was the number one voice
Speaker 1: that Mike would listen to if there was uncertainty. I
Speaker 1: think in those years it would have been Marvin and
Speaker 1: Pete and then Duke who would have had the most
Speaker 1: effect on what we were about to do. YEA, Pete
Speaker 1: lived it. He was just remarkable the amount of time
Speaker 1: that he spent on the guys. And we had our
Speaker 1: draft board, you know, set up by rounds, But in
Speaker 1: this little anti room back behind the draft board and
Speaker 1: this little hallway, Pete had a small board set up
Speaker 1: and he would list in order as he saw them,
Speaker 1: every draft eligible player in the country. He would have
Speaker 1: watched all of them, so he had them labeled one
Speaker 1: through four hundred or whatever there was as his own
Speaker 1: kind of guide. If we were talking about someone around
Speaker 1: and he was uncertain, he would walk around and look
Speaker 1: at his boards, see said, guys, I have him much lower.
Speaker 1: We need to investigate those and talk more about why
Speaker 1: we see this player in this inflated position in the board.
Speaker 1: Do they religiously stick to the board. I mean, you've
Speaker 1: obviously put a ton of work into it leading up
Speaker 1: to the draft. When you get to those three days,
Speaker 1: do you say, all right, we have to trust the
Speaker 1: work we put in and stick to that order for
Speaker 1: the most part, yes, you do. Let's say that you
Speaker 1: are picking sixteenth, middle of them, and it's the first round.
Speaker 1: You establish through your meetings sixteen players that you are
Speaker 1: happy to take. Within those sixteen players, and a lot
Speaker 1: of it we're talking first round. People may not realize
Speaker 1: that there has never been a draft where there were
Speaker 1: thirty two first round pick guys, guys that were worthy
Speaker 1: of you. If you say, you know, you have to
Speaker 1: define it. So in our definition, if you're taking a
Speaker 1: guy in the first round, you're saying that he is
Speaker 1: quite possibly an immediate starter and that you expect him
Speaker 1: to be an impactful player. So a skilled position, someone
Speaker 1: that's going to produce touchdowns or interceptions, or run for
Speaker 1: a lot of yards, or alignment that's going to get
Speaker 1: a defensive alignment that's going to produce sax or an
Speaker 1: offensive linement who's going to play for a long time
Speaker 1: at a high level. So to set the board, you
Speaker 1: have to define what each round is and then say, okay,
Speaker 1: does this player fit the description we're giving it. So
Speaker 1: there's no draft where there are thirty two guys that
Speaker 1: bit them. So some drafts go twenty deep or eighteen deep.
Speaker 1: So if you're sitting there in the middle of the
Speaker 1: first round and you've got sixteen guys and maybe there
Speaker 1: are twelve of them, who are these guys are really good?
Speaker 1: And these next four, yeah they're first round guys, but
Speaker 1: they're not quite the same first round guy as these
Speaker 1: other twelve. So at that point, then if one of
Speaker 1: those twelve seems to be going to be available a
Speaker 1: spot or two ahead of where you're going to go,
Speaker 1: then that's when you might talk about moving up a
Speaker 1: cup of spots, not in violation of your board, but
Speaker 1: maybe better use of the board. You have to have
Speaker 1: a guy, and you have to believe that the work
Speaker 1: and all the discussions you've done with coaches and the
Speaker 1: personnel and the arguments and where you ended up is
Speaker 1: a good plan and yes, for the most part, you
Speaker 1: need to stay true to your board. Now, I imagine
Speaker 1: people listening to this heard you say that in no
Speaker 1: draft are there thirty two guys worthy of a first
Speaker 1: round grade, and they're thinking, well, the Bengals take thirty
Speaker 1: are going thirty first this year, does that mean they're
Speaker 1: not going to get a first round guy. I think
Speaker 1: what a lot of people don't recognize is that the
Speaker 1: Bengals are probably going to get a guy at number
Speaker 1: thirty one that's about fourteenth on their board, or that
Speaker 1: that's just kind of a random number, but somebody that
Speaker 1: is very much higher than the thirty first best player
Speaker 1: right in their mind. Well, that's right, and you when
Speaker 1: you're picking thirty first, it means that you have an
Speaker 1: awfully good football team, and so a player, a specific
Speaker 1: player who would fit a spot on your team, that
Speaker 1: he may be more valuable to you than he is
Speaker 1: to some other players, because it's a very specific skill
Speaker 1: set that you're looking for. But you'll also see oftentimes,
Speaker 1: you know the Patriots for years, we're picking down near
Speaker 1: the bottom, and what they realized early on was that
Speaker 1: the second round starts around pick twenty twenty five somewhere
Speaker 1: in there. And so if someone below you has eyes
Speaker 1: for this person in the first round at thirty one,
Speaker 1: well let's trade down and get a couple more picks.
Speaker 1: We'll take an extra second rounder because we think that
Speaker 1: that's one more guy in this category of players that
Speaker 1: are kind of the same guys. They're good players, they're
Speaker 1: going to play a lot in the NFL. But if
Speaker 1: you have defined the first round as this guy, we
Speaker 1: want people that are going to be Pro bowlers. That
Speaker 1: doesn't mean they're bad players. Aren't that many Pro bowlers around,
Speaker 1: So that's an area where you we'll see teams trade
Speaker 1: down a little bit and teams that are a little
Speaker 1: needy jumping up to take someone at thirty one. And
Speaker 1: now you also have to weigh in the fact that
Speaker 1: that thirty first and thirty second pick have five year contract,
Speaker 1: and that can be really meaningful as you look forward
Speaker 1: at your cap numbers. Maybe it's an offensive lineman or
Speaker 1: a defensive lineman who you want to have for a
Speaker 1: long time. It's really nice to have that fifth year
Speaker 1: build into that first year that first round contract. So
Speaker 1: that's another element into the decisions there. We're getting a
Speaker 1: peek into the war room from former Bengal Scott Greg Seeman.
Speaker 1: How big of a concern is leaking information in this process?
Speaker 1: I think it's a pretty big concern in some places.
Speaker 1: You know, there are only three people that have access
Speaker 1: to the draft board, and the room is double locked,
Speaker 1: and there are cameras and laser sensors informations. As Pete
Speaker 1: Brown used to say, once information is out, it's out
Speaker 1: at all levels. Now there are some that like to
Speaker 1: play the information game and they will leak to a
Speaker 1: writer or an agent that you know, we're really leaning
Speaker 1: this way, or we think this guy's great, and they
Speaker 1: want that information out there. But certainly you don't want
Speaker 1: to broadcast what your intentions are. It changes the value
Speaker 1: of picks. It changes the values placed on certain players
Speaker 1: in what teams are willing to if they want to
Speaker 1: jump ahead of you, or if you're trying to if
Speaker 1: they know you want a certain guy and you call
Speaker 1: them on draft day about moving up, the price for
Speaker 1: that spot may have gone up if they believe that
Speaker 1: you are desperate to go get that player. So yes,
Speaker 1: that information needs to stay in the house. How much
Speaker 1: did things change as Duke Tobin took on a more
Speaker 1: prominent role in running the draft. I think that we
Speaker 1: streamlined our work everybody. The traditional approach to it is
Speaker 1: that in the spring after the draft, scouts go out
Speaker 1: to all the colleges in their region, their area and
Speaker 1: get a first thought on next year's draft eligible players
Speaker 1: at those universities, and you're building networks, talking to coaches,
Speaker 1: that kind of thing. And then in the fall you're
Speaker 1: with your team for a little while in training camp,
Speaker 1: and then as the colleges start to practice and play,
Speaker 1: you're just gone. From maybe the third week of August
Speaker 1: until the end of the college season, you're on those
Speaker 1: campuses and doing all of that. We did have a
Speaker 1: smaller number of scouts, but as as as Duke pointed out,
Speaker 1: let's go and look at the guys that are going
Speaker 1: to play in the NFL, there's a there's some busy
Speaker 1: work that goes on with some of the teams that
Speaker 1: have really big scouting stamps. They'll they'll go into a
Speaker 1: college and grade every senior, for example, in the program.
Speaker 1: So maybe there are eighteen seniors, Well, the place may
Speaker 1: have three prospects, and our approach was going in and
Speaker 1: find out who are the prospects, and let's pay attention
Speaker 1: to those guys and let's get on to the next place.
Speaker 1: So gosh, probably seven or eight years ago, Duke came
Speaker 1: up with the idea that the way that the film
Speaker 1: is distributed now we have all the video immediately from
Speaker 1: the colleges, and it can be really inefficient if you're
Speaker 1: at a If you're at a big school as a
Speaker 1: scout and you go there on a Wednesday to watch
Speaker 1: practice and watch tape, there may be a dozen other
Speaker 1: scouts there and sitting in a darkened room for the
Speaker 1: big part of the day, Trying to watch the video
Speaker 1: tape with eleven other people is a lot like having
Speaker 1: twelve people fighting over the remote to watch television. You
Speaker 1: can't you wait, run that back and then one guy's
Speaker 1: going slowly and run that back running and ten other
Speaker 1: guys we've already seen this. Can we go into something else?
Speaker 1: So Duke came to me with the idea and I
Speaker 1: agreed with it wholeheartedly. He said, let's do this. Let's
Speaker 1: go out in the fall for a couple months, and
Speaker 1: let's not worry about looking at the video tape. You
Speaker 1: might hit two schools in a day. You know, if
Speaker 1: I had the Atlantic States, for example, so I could
Speaker 1: hit Duke, North Carolina and North Canina State in two days,
Speaker 1: and instead of sitting in that room with all the
Speaker 1: other scouts, go around and talk to people. So I
Speaker 1: would spend time in the training room. I'd go see
Speaker 1: the academic counselor you know, any coaches you could grab,
Speaker 1: and let's let's build that kind of information in person,
Speaker 1: and then let's come back home and we can sit.
Speaker 1: I can sit for a day in my office and
Speaker 1: watch all the North Carolina film I want to watch uninterrupted.
Speaker 1: And I thought that was a brilliant idea. It really
Speaker 1: streamlined our time and it made I got to see
Speaker 1: a lot more video, I got to spend a lot
Speaker 1: more time on it, and I got to talk to
Speaker 1: more people on campus. So I don't know that many
Speaker 1: teams do it that way even yet, but I thought that,
Speaker 1: you know, we had to run of some really good
Speaker 1: drafts when we were in the kind of the glory
Speaker 1: years of Marvin's tenure there, and I thought that that
Speaker 1: approach was a big part of that. I thought we
Speaker 1: were more well informed, maybe than some of the other teams.
Speaker 1: When you're on the road talking to trainers, academic advisors,
Speaker 1: assistant coaches, etc. How long I started. They not very
Speaker 1: you and you know that going in part of the
Speaker 1: you know, for the thirteen years that I was there,
Speaker 1: I had the same area, so I was on the
Speaker 1: East coast, and so a part of that is developing relationships.
Speaker 1: You don't really get to talk to coaches a lot
Speaker 1: during their season when you're on the campus. They'll have
Speaker 1: someone assigned. When the scouts are there, we're usually sitting
Speaker 1: in their team room and somebody will come in and
Speaker 1: tell you about all the guys and they're gonna lie
Speaker 1: up and down the board to defend the players that
Speaker 1: they have strength. Coaches by their nature are pretty dog
Speaker 1: gone honest. You know, if you ask the right they'll
Speaker 1: they'll give you the speel. Here are the numbers. This
Speaker 1: guy benches this, this guy runs out and all that.
Speaker 1: But if you can get them alone and you say
Speaker 1: to them, for example, when you have partner workouts, do
Speaker 1: you put young guys with him? And he says no, never, never,
Speaker 1: and it's because he's not a hard worker. Or you
Speaker 1: may ask, have you ever thrown this guy out of
Speaker 1: the weight room? Yeah, two or three times, because you
Speaker 1: know the guy just won't work. So you occasionally find
Speaker 1: that Now you also find out that once the college
Speaker 1: season is over and the draft eligible players aren't going
Speaker 1: to be playing for them anymore. So they we're talking
Speaker 1: now and after the combine, there's a period of time
Speaker 1: a month or so where you can go back out
Speaker 1: and they're having pro days and that kind of thing.
Speaker 1: They're much more honest. The guy doesn't play there anymore,
Speaker 1: you know, but we couldn't wait to get him out
Speaker 1: of here. Or occasionally you'll know, you'll get they'll they'll
Speaker 1: tell you things. You know what, when I talk to
Speaker 1: you in September, I didn't say much about this guy.
Speaker 1: I want to tell you something. By the end of
Speaker 1: the year, he was a real leader for us. I mean,
Speaker 1: this kid just grew as a person and I would
Speaker 1: change my recommendation to the positive now. And I want
Speaker 1: to make sure you hear that because I know I
Speaker 1: didn't leave a very good impression of him early on.
Speaker 1: So it works both ways. But they are more forthcoming
Speaker 1: once the once they don't have to have the kid
Speaker 1: in the program, and maybe that leaks. There was one
Speaker 1: strength coach at a university I will not mention that
Speaker 1: I thought was just over the top, and what he
Speaker 1: did on every kid's locker, he had a belcro strip
Speaker 1: next to their nameplate at the top of their locker,
Speaker 1: and he had these little message boards made up and
Speaker 1: it said things like hard worker, leader, non compliant, lazy,
Speaker 1: you know, inconsistent, And on a weekly basis, he would
Speaker 1: go in and just change those and so you could
Speaker 1: walk through the locker room you see this kid's locker
Speaker 1: and it says lazy. Okay, that's pretty direct. I think
Speaker 1: the head coach after a year made him stop doing
Speaker 1: that because he saw all the scouts walking down the
Speaker 1: hall of the aisle of the locker making notes on
Speaker 1: every player. But he felt that that was motivation, and
Speaker 1: I think that while it was well intentioned, his approach
Speaker 1: was probably less than desirable. Was there a point where
Speaker 1: the Bengals decided to prioritize character concerns more. I think
Speaker 1: that you know, if you if you if you have
Speaker 1: a restaurant, for example, people that have a complaint are
Speaker 1: much more likely to write something on the Internet about that.
Speaker 1: And if a player has an issue and it's a
Speaker 1: public issue, it gets a great deal of attention, and
Speaker 1: not that it shouldn't, but it overshadows a whole bunch
Speaker 1: of other guys on the football team. So uh, yes,
Speaker 1: we had a run where we had a handful of
Speaker 1: players they got in trouble and that reflected badly on
Speaker 1: everyone in the organization. So yes, then you have to
Speaker 1: look then at what you're how you're evaluating them. I
Speaker 1: think that there is a there's a there's aemistry that
Speaker 1: exists in a locker room. We were blessed to have
Speaker 1: Andrew Witworth and Domata Peco, for example, in our locker
Speaker 1: room all those years. If a rookie came onto the team,
Speaker 1: the odds were pretty quickly he was going to end
Speaker 1: up at their homes holding a couple of their kids
Speaker 1: on their lap and waiting for dinner and just getting
Speaker 1: a sense of you know, this is how we do it.
Speaker 1: But even still, then you have a couple of guys
Speaker 1: that don't behave the way you want them to behave,
Speaker 1: and you have a you have to decide what your
Speaker 1: tolerance level is for that, and at a certain point
Speaker 1: you say, you know, this has now become a distraction.
Speaker 1: It's beyond just something that you have to manage. It's
Speaker 1: it's becoming a negative for our football team. And yes,
Speaker 1: then you have to go you have to say, we're
Speaker 1: just not going to take too many chances on guys
Speaker 1: that we know could have an issue. And sometimes you
Speaker 1: bring a guy in that has an issue that never
Speaker 1: showed itself before, so you can't you can't always predict
Speaker 1: it the quality of your locker room, though the leaders
Speaker 1: in the locker room can handle minor issues. If it
Speaker 1: becomes too big, then yeah, the player has to go
Speaker 1: and you have to think in a different direction. Andrew
Speaker 1: Whitworth and Delmato Pecco came in the same draft two
Speaker 1: thousand and six, Jonathan Joseph same year, so that was
Speaker 1: obviously an extremely successful year in the draft for the Bengals.
Speaker 1: Do you have a favorite draft or a favorite draft
Speaker 1: pick from the thirteen years he spent with the team.
Speaker 1: I think wit he was He was not in my area,
Speaker 1: he was in the South, but I got to know him.
Speaker 1: And when we had our at the Indianapolis Combine, you
Speaker 1: get you can select a group of players to interview.
Speaker 1: You get fifteen minutes which each of each of them.
Speaker 1: Each team has a room, a hotel room basically, and
Speaker 1: the players come by and so Witt came in and
Speaker 1: you in that fifteen minutes you're trying to get to
Speaker 1: know him, and you try to have a oh, a
Speaker 1: set of questions that might help them reveal something about themselves.
Speaker 1: And a lot of times you put videotape on of
Speaker 1: them playing and you asked them to explain what we're seeing.
Speaker 1: We simply asked Wit to look at a play, I think,
Speaker 1: and about ten minutes later, after he had finished discussing
Speaker 1: every aspect of his footwork, his hand placement, where the
Speaker 1: safety was, how he knew this guy was going to
Speaker 1: go inside because the placement of the pre safety and
Speaker 1: the linebacker stuff. That was at that moment when he
Speaker 1: left the room that Marvin Lewis turned to Paul Alexander,
Speaker 1: or line coach, and famously said, if we draft this guy,
Speaker 1: I don't need you. He can coach them himself. So
Speaker 1: and you just knew his maturity and part of it
Speaker 1: was his size. I mean, there's a sixty seventh, three
Speaker 1: hundred and thirty pound guy that was really smart and
Speaker 1: a good human being. You just thought that, you know this,
Speaker 1: this guy is going to be so good for so long.
Speaker 1: The other one, for me, it was in my area.
Speaker 1: Giovanni Bernard was, you know, the kind of a scat
Speaker 1: back and punt returner int North Carolina. But I did
Speaker 1: have good contacts there, the video guy and one of
Speaker 1: the trainers, and they went out of their way to say,
Speaker 1: I gotta understand Geo as a special human. You want
Speaker 1: him on your team. He's not only a good player,
Speaker 1: he's just really, really a good person. And so Hugh
Speaker 1: Jaccent at that point was coaching our running backs, and
Speaker 1: I called Hugh and said, we're having a pro day
Speaker 1: down here at University of North Carolina, and I'm going
Speaker 1: to be pushing for Giovanni Bernard. I need an ally
Speaker 1: in the draft meetings leading up to this. Come down,
Speaker 1: work him out and see what you think. So Hugh
Speaker 1: came down for a pro day there at UNC and
Speaker 1: worked him out. Then I think maybe he took him
Speaker 1: to lunch, spent time with him, and then he called
Speaker 1: me later and he said, thank you so much. He said,
Speaker 1: this guy fits in perfectly with what we want to do.
Speaker 1: And Geo became one of the really good third down backs,
Speaker 1: even at his size, just a tremendous pass protector, was
Speaker 1: so important and could catch the ball out of the
Speaker 1: backfield and could run the ball, you know, better than
Speaker 1: probably given credit for and more physical runner than people thought.
Speaker 1: But those two guys really stand out just because of
Speaker 1: all that they have contributed. Sometimes you know, you miss
Speaker 1: on a guy and you feel bad about that. When
Speaker 1: you see guys that are that you thought, I think
Speaker 1: this is what this person's going to be, and then
Speaker 1: they become that for a long period of time, and
Speaker 1: then it makes you feel good about the work that
Speaker 1: you did and that you got that one right. The
Speaker 1: Bengal selected Giovanni Bernard with a thirty seventh pick in
Speaker 1: the twenty thirteen draft. I have it in my notes
Speaker 1: that he was eleventh on the Bengals draft board that year, which,
Speaker 1: if true, indicates how highly the organization thought of him.
Speaker 1: Was that pretty nerve wracking then waiting for that thirty
Speaker 1: seventh pick to see if he would still be there.
Speaker 1: We loved him, and Q and I won our battle
Speaker 1: in the in the draft meetings that this guy's going
Speaker 1: to really help us. But it brings up another points.
Speaker 1: As Duke would always point out, you know, there are
Speaker 1: two grades. The most important grade is the grade that
Speaker 1: you as an organization put on a player relative to
Speaker 1: your football team. And then there's the grade of how
Speaker 1: the league is going to see this player, and we
Speaker 1: were well aware that the league would not see Giovanni
Speaker 1: Bernard as a first round running back, so there was
Speaker 1: no way he was going to go in those first
Speaker 1: thirty two picks. But for us, we saw a guy
Speaker 1: who had first round qualities and we thought that he
Speaker 1: would have phil a real role on our team, would
Speaker 1: catch a lot of passes out of the backfield and
Speaker 1: in our offense, that was a real possibility the ball
Speaker 1: was going to be thrown to a back and that
Speaker 1: he would play for a long time, so he would
Speaker 1: be an impact player. So once you got into the
Speaker 1: second round, yeah, thirty three, thirty four, thirty five, then
Speaker 1: you're starting to squirm a little bit. But that you
Speaker 1: mentioned information earlier, see that would be a pivotal bit
Speaker 1: of information. It would have been noticed by other teams
Speaker 1: that the Bengals running back coach was present at the
Speaker 1: North Carolina Pro Day, because one of the things you
Speaker 1: do as a scout is whether it's on your phone
Speaker 1: or a tablet or a piece of paper in your pocket,
Speaker 1: you're making note. Well, Tomlin was there and so and
Speaker 1: the general manager was there too. So when you come
Speaker 1: back in your draft meetings, after the pro days, you're
Speaker 1: we're talking about where do you think everybody else? Seas?
Speaker 1: And the Steelers had seven guys there, so I think
Speaker 1: they liked the guy, you know, so we were Yeah,
Speaker 1: you would have been a little concerned that people would
Speaker 1: have recognized that Geo was important to us. Our guest
Speaker 1: is former Bengal scouting former NFL assistant coach Greg Sieman.
Speaker 1: One of the bengals all time best draft picks was
Speaker 1: Gino Atkins fourth round in twenty ten. What stands out
Speaker 1: about that selection? Bill Tobin. Bill was helping us and
Speaker 1: was doing scouting. Then Duke's father in a long time
Speaker 1: scout and personnel guy and a general manager, and he
Speaker 1: had Georgia, and he was just adamant that Gino was
Speaker 1: a hard guy to block, that he would be able
Speaker 1: to rush the passer from an interior line position, which
Speaker 1: we did not have at the time, and that we
Speaker 1: shouldn't worry that he wasn't the tallest guy or necessarily
Speaker 1: the biggest guy, but he was just going. He was
Speaker 1: strong and had balance and was powerful. And then when
Speaker 1: you met Gino, he was the quietest guy. You couldn't
Speaker 1: get him to talk. I mean, Jay Hayes coached him
Speaker 1: for years and he said, I've had like two conversations
Speaker 1: with the kid. He's in the room every day, so
Speaker 1: I mean we talked football stuff. He said, he's just
Speaker 1: a quiet guy, but he was so intense. And when
Speaker 1: you saw how powerful he was and his balance, balance
Speaker 1: for those interior defensive lineman comes into play because they
Speaker 1: get double teamed a lot, they get combination blocked a lot,
Speaker 1: and so they're getting pushed kind of in two directions
Speaker 1: and a lot of and some of them get turned
Speaker 1: and they fall or they go to the ground. And
Speaker 1: he just was so sturdy, and the fact that he
Speaker 1: wasn't six five and yet was so powerful was a
Speaker 1: real advantage for him because he had this built in
Speaker 1: leverage that these taller offensive linemen they just couldn't move him.
Speaker 1: You know, it's like a big picture a really a
Speaker 1: boulder with a flat bottom sitting on the ground and
Speaker 1: you can't roll it and you can't push it. And
Speaker 1: that's kind of how he was and that made such
Speaker 1: a difference for the linebackers in the run game. And
Speaker 1: then when he was singled up on a guard or
Speaker 1: a center in the past protection, if they didn't give
Speaker 1: that person help Gino would just push them back into
Speaker 1: the quarterback space to the advantage of Michael Johnson and
Speaker 1: Colonel Stone Lap on the outside. From two thousand and
Speaker 1: nine to twenty fourteen, the Bengals had a run of
Speaker 1: six straight drafts that worked out really well. In two fifteen,
Speaker 1: the streak ended Cedric o'boyhey in round one, Jake Fisher
Speaker 1: in round two. PJ. Dawson was one of two selections
Speaker 1: that the Bengals made in round three that year. Obviously,
Speaker 1: none of those guys really worked out the NFL. Was
Speaker 1: that a draft where you felt like he made mistakes?
Speaker 1: Is that just one of those things that sooner or
Speaker 1: later you're bound to have a bad one. We had
Speaker 1: had a number of good drafts in a row, and
Speaker 1: we had a good football team. We were at a
Speaker 1: point where we did not know how long Wit was
Speaker 1: going to play, and we felt like we were at
Speaker 1: a point where we had good depth on the team
Speaker 1: and we could bring in some guys who did not
Speaker 1: necessarily have to play that first year but would become
Speaker 1: the heir apparent. That was the plan. Oh boy he
Speaker 1: Paul Alexander, the line coach, felt that he was one
Speaker 1: of the best prospects he had ever seen, and then
Speaker 1: Cedric in their bowl game that year, suffered a knee injury.
Speaker 1: We consulted with the physicians that saw him at the Combine,
Speaker 1: and our own doctors examined him when we brought him
Speaker 1: to Cincinnati. The consensus was this was while it was
Speaker 1: a knee injury, it was one that has dealt with
Speaker 1: all the time, and that he should be fine. Fisher
Speaker 1: was from Oregon, aggressive, pretty good athlete. The thinking was
Speaker 1: that those two guys could become the tackles. They just
Speaker 1: didn't for whatever the reasons are. I left after the
Speaker 1: fifteen season, so I wasn't there for a lot of
Speaker 1: their early developments. I can't speak intelligently about what happened
Speaker 1: to them, but clearly we got it wrong because they
Speaker 1: didn't develop, and we went through the same process we
Speaker 1: had done for the previous six drafts and we simply missed.
Speaker 1: And that's a shame. Luckily continued to play and continues
Speaker 1: to play until just a couple of weeks ago, so
Speaker 1: it wasn't like you didn't have a tackle, you know,
Speaker 1: at that point immediately, But yeah, we just missed, and
Speaker 1: that does happen. How heated. Does it get in the
Speaker 1: draft room. I think it depends on the personalities. Mike
Speaker 1: would let you argue to a point, but if he
Speaker 1: thought it became personal or non productive in some way,
Speaker 1: he would put a quick into it. But I think
Speaker 1: that you know, one of Mike's really good traits is
Speaker 1: that he's a very good listener and a very observant person,
Speaker 1: and he would be interested in the level of passion
Speaker 1: you displayed about your guy as long as it was reasonable.
Speaker 1: He and Duke both did a really good job of
Speaker 1: reminding everyone at the outset that we want you to
Speaker 1: speak your mind. We want you to defend the players
Speaker 1: who are in your area that you really like. But
Speaker 1: let us remember that everybody has a voice here and
Speaker 1: that our ultimate goal is to make the Cincinnati manuals better.
Speaker 1: So that's what our decisions based upon. And Mike would
Speaker 1: say at the time, don't be upset if I don't
Speaker 1: go the way you want me to go. I hear
Speaker 1: what you're saying, I also have to hear what everybody
Speaker 1: else is saying, and I have to have my own view.
Speaker 1: So I would encourage you to speak up and say
Speaker 1: your piece, and then we'll make a decision, and when
Speaker 1: we'll walk out of here, it's everyone's decision. I don't
Speaker 1: want to know. One thing he would not tolerate is
Speaker 1: I don't want to hear somebody going down the hall
Speaker 1: into another person's office. Is that, can you believe that, Jesus,
Speaker 1: we just screwed this up. So I don't want to
Speaker 1: hear that. We will make a decision as a group
Speaker 1: and then it's our decision and everybody lives with them.
Speaker 1: So I thought Mike handled that kind of thing really well.
Speaker 1: Are there any examples you can share of when a
Speaker 1: guy that the Bengals really want was taken one or
Speaker 1: two picks before they were on the clock, And does
Speaker 1: that happen frequently? Is that something that happens almost every year?
Speaker 1: I think I can't think of an example immediately. Sure
Speaker 1: it happens, But as I laid out in when we
Speaker 1: started with the first round, and I said, if you're
Speaker 1: picking sixteenth, sixteen names, you repeat that process over and over.
Speaker 1: So the draft is a three day endeavor. So when
Speaker 1: the draft is over on the first night, the scouts
Speaker 1: will stick around and you've taken those thirty two players
Speaker 1: off of your board, and now you have reordered it
Speaker 1: with the next whatever is in the second round, however
Speaker 1: made that is forty or something. You reorder it based
Speaker 1: upon what you have, how you graded those guys. And
Speaker 1: then early the next morning, everybody comes back in and
Speaker 1: we say, okay, here's where we are. Do we want
Speaker 1: to make any adjustment to it? Well, why would you
Speaker 1: make an adjustment. You might make an adjustment based upon
Speaker 1: who you got in the first round. You know, if
Speaker 1: you took your quarterback in the first round, then these
Speaker 1: other quarterbacks that were in that next group of players
Speaker 1: come off, you're not going to take them, and so
Speaker 1: you're going to elevate some guys up and you have
Speaker 1: to have a really good discussion at that point of Right,
Speaker 1: we're picking sixteenth gear again here in the second round.
Speaker 1: Here are the sixteen guys numbered one through sixteen that
Speaker 1: we want. You know, who we really want. We want
Speaker 1: thirteen if we could get thirteen. So you're watching it
Speaker 1: play out, and then that again is where the discussion
Speaker 1: comes in. All Right, we've got Atlanta ahead of us,
Speaker 1: and we're looking at a edge rusher. They've got, let's
Speaker 1: say they have two great edge rushers. They're not going
Speaker 1: to draft an edge rusher, but this team behind us
Speaker 1: maybe looking at the same thing we're looking at. Should
Speaker 1: we call Atlanta first, for example, and say we'd like
Speaker 1: to move up to your spot because we can assure
Speaker 1: ourselves that we'll get our guys. So there's a little
Speaker 1: bit of play with it, you know, at that point,
Speaker 1: based upon who you've already taken. For example. One thing
Speaker 1: that's interested me over the years that I didn't realize
Speaker 1: is that what we see on TV is not live
Speaker 1: in the draft room. You're several minutes ahead, correct, yes, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: they in the first round, you have ten minutes, and
Speaker 1: the TV programming they're working on a ten minute schedule
Speaker 1: as well, and when they plot out the broadcast, so
Speaker 1: they are allowing this person to talk about the players
Speaker 1: and this person. Then there's a commercial break, and so
Speaker 1: the teams. If you know who you're picking, and if
Speaker 1: nobody is calling on the phone, and normally you will
Speaker 1: wait unless you're just absolutely sort of we're taking this
Speaker 1: guy no matter what. As soon as it's your turn,
Speaker 1: you'll call New York and they'll hand in the card.
Speaker 1: If you aren't a position and say, well, five minutes,
Speaker 1: let's see if somebody calls and what they have, and
Speaker 1: you will have already discussed. If we're picking sixteen and
Speaker 1: we're thinking we might move, what would we take in return.
Speaker 1: So you have all that in your mind, and you
Speaker 1: have two people in the room that man the phones
Speaker 1: that other teams can call in and say, hey, we
Speaker 1: interested in moving. So a lot is going on there,
Speaker 1: but rarely does does a team take those full ten minutes. Yes,
Speaker 1: it's the pick is in and then you wait several
Speaker 1: minutes before you see it on television. Yeah, it is
Speaker 1: a very highly rated TV show, So this stuff is important.
Speaker 1: I mean, the draft kills NBA playoff games, Major League
Speaker 1: Baseball games MLS. I mean, it's it's really kind of
Speaker 1: crazy that to watch this thing, but it says, yes,
Speaker 1: it's a primetime showcase. Yeah, but if I'm not mistake, in,
Speaker 1: the combined rating of the first round of the NFL
Speaker 1: Draft between the various networks that now carry it exceeds
Speaker 1: any game of the World Series, which is crazy to
Speaker 1: me being a lifelong baseball fan. But that shows you
Speaker 1: the power of the NFL. Yeah, that's same here. I
Speaker 1: grew up with the Big Red Machine as a local guy,
Speaker 1: and I can't imagine that the World Series was jeez,
Speaker 1: everything you kept scoring. You kept your score book at home. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's very true. The NFL is a monster in terms
Speaker 1: of television. All Right, a few more hard hitting questions
Speaker 1: for my friend Greg Seman, the former Bengal Scout. How
Speaker 1: much snacking is done in the war room and what's available.
Speaker 1: The amount of snacking at the beginning is casual, and
Speaker 1: the closer you get to your pick, it's by the handful,
Speaker 1: and you have somebody coming in just dumping checks, mix
Speaker 1: and candy bars and uh and our and our draft room.
Speaker 1: Licorice was very popular, either the stringy kind or the
Speaker 1: little cheolabol bikes. Um, a little longer lasting. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: it's uh yeah, just a tension reliever, I suppose, but yeah,
Speaker 1: a lot as it gets closer to it. And then
Speaker 1: if you if you really get the guy you want,
Speaker 1: you're really happy, then there's celebratory snacking, you know, people,
Speaker 1: can I get you another candy bar? There? You know,
Speaker 1: self congratulations for a few minutes, and then you start
Speaker 1: thinking about the next round and oh god, is he
Speaker 1: going to be there? What are we going to do?
Speaker 1: That kind of thing. One of the funny things that
Speaker 1: it's not it's not funny at the time, but you
Speaker 1: have a player. Again, let's say we're picking sixteen. You
Speaker 1: have a player ranked eight and he doesn't get picked
Speaker 1: eight or nine or ten or eleven or twelve. He's sliding,
Speaker 1: and you're looking at each other and say, Okay, is
Speaker 1: this really good or is this really bad? Do people
Speaker 1: know something we don't know? And you start you might
Speaker 1: reach out to contacts that you have, maybe somebody maybe
Speaker 1: a writer that has covered that guy, or somebody at
Speaker 1: the school who you have a good relationship. Why is
Speaker 1: this guy sliding? Is there going to be our rest
Speaker 1: report tomorrow that we don't know about? And that can
Speaker 1: be that can be really agonizing because you don't We
Speaker 1: don't want to be the sucker so to speak, that
Speaker 1: takes this guy. And another part of you is saying,
Speaker 1: dag on it. We did our research on him. This
Speaker 1: guy's really good. These folks are just wrong and if
Speaker 1: he slides to us, we're going to hit a home run.
Speaker 1: And so that tension can show up unexpectedly sometimes and
Speaker 1: you just have to work through it and stay true
Speaker 1: to what you believe and then try like hell to
Speaker 1: find out if there's something you don't know, were you
Speaker 1: amazed by the remote draft a couple of years ago
Speaker 1: with Roger Goodell and his basement and you know, Duke
Speaker 1: Tobin with a live camera in his home and all
Speaker 1: of them. Yeah, yeah, amazed as a good word. I
Speaker 1: mean it just um, well it like all of everyone
Speaker 1: that's working from home during that period. It's just different.
Speaker 1: I mean, people are disassociated from another physically, and yeah,
Speaker 1: I didn't find it very appealing. As much as they
Speaker 1: can maybe be bill mannered at times, it's nice to
Speaker 1: have the fans in the draft and their reaction is important,
Speaker 1: I think. So it was a little bizarre almost. You
Speaker 1: were an NFL assistant coach in Dallas and in Cleveland,
Speaker 1: where the coaching staffs are not in the war room,
Speaker 1: at least not all of the time. Should they be
Speaker 1: Do the Bengals have this right? I have a strong
Speaker 1: feeling that all the people that have worked to build
Speaker 1: the draft should be available in the room. One is
Speaker 1: a reward for all that they have done. Two to
Speaker 1: have their availability if there's a last minute question, and
Speaker 1: that what that question would be is, well, unexpectedly, guys,
Speaker 1: we can have choice here between these two players at
Speaker 1: the same position. We have one rated above the other.
Speaker 1: We think they're both really good. Is there anything that
Speaker 1: sways us between these two at this point, maybe based
Speaker 1: upon somebody else we drafted already or whatever. The immediacy
Speaker 1: of that is good, But to go the other on
Speaker 1: the other side of it, you can't have chaos. And
Speaker 1: so you asked me early on about the two thousand
Speaker 1: and four draft, and I said, you speak when spoken to.
Speaker 1: That does have to be the way that the room works.
Speaker 1: I think that if you if you were a team
Speaker 1: that truly had some concerns about leaks and you just
Speaker 1: didn't feel good about your people in that regard, that
Speaker 1: would be part of it. There is a complicating factor
Speaker 1: more these days than probably when I first started, even
Speaker 1: and that's agents. Agents that represent both coaches and players,
Speaker 1: and they have their own relationship, and you have to
Speaker 1: make sure you say, and Mike said this to the coaches,
Speaker 1: if I find out that you're leaking information from the
Speaker 1: draft board about where we are on one of your
Speaker 1: agents players, then that's fiable. We can't do that. So
Speaker 1: that would be a bit of an argument for having
Speaker 1: fewer have access to it. But I felt like when
Speaker 1: you luck most all the people out who have done
Speaker 1: all this work. It's a little insulting and a little
Speaker 1: disappointing for a young scout. I think it's important that
Speaker 1: he is in the room. If his aspirations are to
Speaker 1: run a personnel department or it would ultimately be a
Speaker 1: general manager, it is greatly to his benefit or her benefit.
Speaker 1: Because we have more and more young ladies coming into scouting,
Speaker 1: which is awesome, it's to their benefit to be in
Speaker 1: the room and see how it works, to see how
Speaker 1: it is when you've got three minutes left on the
Speaker 1: pick and suddenly the Dallas Cowboys called, they want to
Speaker 1: move to your spot, and they're just sweeping the offer.
Speaker 1: You've got to have a calm, steady hand there and
Speaker 1: how to handle that because it's not like the movie
Speaker 1: Draft Day where it happens all the time, but it
Speaker 1: does happen, and it happens in a point where you
Speaker 1: have time constraints, like who was it several years ago
Speaker 1: Minnesota Vikings missed their turn and somebody jumped ahead of
Speaker 1: them and took their spot. So I think that there's
Speaker 1: a benefit being in that room and seeing how that
Speaker 1: all works. So I would favor having the people that
Speaker 1: have done the work to be in the draft room
Speaker 1: at least as observers and available as a sounding or
Speaker 1: if there's some discussion that has to take place. Were
Speaker 1: you working for the Browns when Draft Day came out?
Speaker 1: I want to say, yeah, I was there starting in sixteen,
Speaker 1: so I think the movie came out around and that
Speaker 1: was entertaining, and you know, I love the great message
Speaker 1: he used to stay true and he got the general managers,
Speaker 1: got the note to himself in his desk drawer, you know,
Speaker 1: to remind himself, stay true to what you believe and
Speaker 1: take this guy. And then it was a little overdone
Speaker 1: with the birthday party, you know, and they interviewed the kid.
Speaker 1: Yet why didn't many of your teammates come to your
Speaker 1: birthday party? But there is some you know, that was dramatic, certainly,
Speaker 1: But that is the kind of I think the point
Speaker 1: they we're making is a good one. That's the kind
Speaker 1: of thing that you expect a good area scout to
Speaker 1: find out that, you know, he's in that school three
Speaker 1: or four times a year, and he developed relationships where
Speaker 1: he can go down the hall and go into somebody's
Speaker 1: office unannounced and they have a friendly relationship and say,
Speaker 1: you know, what's going on with this kid? And you'd
Speaker 1: find out. So it was entertaining. Yes, we are about
Speaker 1: a week before the draft, what's going on right now?
Speaker 1: And is the work basically done? Yes, boards are set.
Speaker 1: The process has always been assume it's the same. Obviously
Speaker 1: I haven't been in that part of it for a
Speaker 1: few years, but the last week generally was you would
Speaker 1: do a series of mock drafts yourself, and so you
Speaker 1: might take In our case, we would take all the
Speaker 1: coaches and scouts in the room and you would have
Speaker 1: but one or two teams that you represented. You were
Speaker 1: their general manager for this draft, and then we would
Speaker 1: spend a couple of days doing drafts. And so I'm
Speaker 1: the New York Giants, and I picked John Smith, and
Speaker 1: you would come down and there's your spot, and then
Speaker 1: Mike would make the pick, or we would discuss it
Speaker 1: and say, Okay, yep, we're going to stay right where
Speaker 1: we were and take that guy. Next day you might
Speaker 1: do it and he would ask you to make different picks,
Speaker 1: and maybe the person you were left with was the
Speaker 1: sixteenth player on your sixteen player list, and you're thinking
Speaker 1: that the seventeenth and eighteenth players are just about as
Speaker 1: good and we can pick up a second round pick.
Speaker 1: So we're if that happens, we may call these guys
Speaker 1: because we think they're looking for this same player, and
Speaker 1: maybe we can move back to get their second round
Speaker 1: picks still get a guy we really like. So you
Speaker 1: do that and you have that discussion of you try
Speaker 1: to have done your research teams that you think might
Speaker 1: like to move to your spot, and so then you
Speaker 1: have the discussion of, Okay, the Philadelphia Eagles, as anticipated
Speaker 1: have called us about this sixteenth pick, what do we
Speaker 1: want in compensation? And what we learned in the last
Speaker 1: ten years is that general managers on a lot of
Speaker 1: teams place less value on future picks than they do
Speaker 1: on current picks. So you feel, you know, you would
Speaker 1: say to them, Okay, well here's what we want. Maybe
Speaker 1: we want your starting right tackle and your third round pick,
Speaker 1: or we will trade your first round picks. We want
Speaker 1: a second and the fourth, or we will trade you
Speaker 1: first round picks. We want to second and next year's first,
Speaker 1: because they don't value it as much as they do
Speaker 1: this year's. Sometimes it's a GM who's in the last
Speaker 1: year of his contract that he really doesn't care about
Speaker 1: that future pick. He just wants his player to save us.
Speaker 1: But so you try to rehearse as much as you
Speaker 1: can what's going to happen on draft days, so there
Speaker 1: aren't surprised. It's much like putting on a play, for example.
Speaker 1: You rehearse it and rehearse it and rehearse it. And
Speaker 1: so you, as somebody once said, have a plan, execute
Speaker 1: the plan, and plan for the unexpected, and that last
Speaker 1: week is the planning for the unexpected part of that.
Speaker 1: I think last thing. I think a lot of NFL fans,
Speaker 1: football fans in general, would say being inside the war
Speaker 1: room during the draft would be on their bucket list,
Speaker 1: would be one of the coolest things they could experience.
Speaker 1: Do you feel that way about the thirteen years that
Speaker 1: you were in there with the Bengals. Yes, for a
Speaker 1: personnel guy, that's the super Bowl and it's the culmination
Speaker 1: of so much. You know, the free agency period starts
Speaker 1: in early March, and teams have different philosophies about free agency,
Speaker 1: but free agency oftentimes will define a portion of your draft.
Speaker 1: So you want to get that part right. And then
Speaker 1: if you've done that and you've eliminated the necessity of
Speaker 1: drafting for need because you didn't answer your problem with
Speaker 1: a veteran left guard or whatever it is, and that
Speaker 1: you've got to move this left guard way up your
Speaker 1: board out of need. You don't want to do that.
Speaker 1: So if you have a well planned, well designed draft,
Speaker 1: it's a ball. You feel like you're in some control
Speaker 1: and that you're making your team better and that you're
Speaker 1: making your team better for a period of years. And so, yeah,
Speaker 1: would it would be a it would be a well
Speaker 1: experienced bucket list event. Yes, it's very cool. This has
Speaker 1: been extremely enjoyable and informative. I appreciate your time and
Speaker 1: your friendship. Thank you so much, Dan, Thank you, it's
Speaker 1: been a pleasure. By the way, the Draft Day movie
Speaker 1: starring Kevin Costner as Sonny Weaver Junior, the fictitious GM
Speaker 1: of the Browns, actually came out in twenty fourteen while
Speaker 1: Greg was still working for the Bengals, and the famous
Speaker 1: note in Sonny's pocket read Vonte mac No matter what.
Speaker 1: The Bengals Booth podcast is presented by Ultimate Bengals, the
Speaker 1: free to play fantasy football game. This past season, Ultimate
Speaker 1: Bengals awarded a weekly winner during the course of the
Speaker 1: year with tickets, autograph merchandise and money can't buy experiences
Speaker 1: all up for grabs. Find Ultimate Bengals in the app
Speaker 1: Store and Google Play. One of the best websites for
Speaker 1: information about the draft is Pro Football Network dot Com.
Speaker 1: They also have a fun and easy to use draft simulator.
Speaker 1: I did a three round mock draft today and got
Speaker 1: Iowa center Tyler Linderbaum in round one, Colorado State tight
Speaker 1: end Trey McBride and round two, and Alabama cornerback Jalen
Speaker 1: armor Davis in round three. I think most Bengals fans
Speaker 1: would be happy with that, but I'm not so sure
Speaker 1: that Tony Pauline would agree. He's the senior draft analyst
Speaker 1: for Pro Football Network dot Com and I caught up
Speaker 1: with Tony this week. Tony, the name that comes up
Speaker 1: most frequently on mock drafts to the Bengals is Iowa
Speaker 1: center Tyler Linderbaum. Let's start with your evaluation. How good
Speaker 1: is Tyler Linderbaum. I think he's worth a late late
Speaker 1: first round pick early second round pick. I thought that
Speaker 1: he has been overrated throughout most of the process. There
Speaker 1: was talk here in New York about the Jets potentially
Speaker 1: taking him with one of their two top ten picks.
Speaker 1: I thought that was ridiculous, But I think the late
Speaker 1: first round may not be a bad place for him.
Speaker 1: He's a solid player, he's not a great player. He's
Speaker 1: a zone blocker. He's a guy that needs a running
Speaker 1: start into his blocks. He's not a big, strong, mailer guy.
Speaker 1: I tell people go back and watch the film of
Speaker 1: the Big Ten title game when he was basically handled
Speaker 1: by Chris Hinton, and then you factor in that he's
Speaker 1: only he has arms that are barely thirty one inches long,
Speaker 1: and you wonder how he's going to handle those big
Speaker 1: Jordan Davis type defensive tackles in the middle of the line.
Speaker 1: I think if you put him in his own blocking situation,
Speaker 1: you ask him to get out to the second level,
Speaker 1: you have to pull across the line of scrimmage and
Speaker 1: block emotion, He's gonna do exceptionally well. He's a tough guy.
Speaker 1: She's not a very big or powerful guy. But still
Speaker 1: I think it fits in need and I think the
Speaker 1: end of round one isn't a bad spot for Linderbaum. Tony.
Speaker 1: It sounds like you are not as high on Linderbaum
Speaker 1: as many well, I mean as far as centers are concerned.
Speaker 1: There are Day two and Day three guys. I think
Speaker 1: someone like Cameron Jergens of Nebraska, who I think is
Speaker 1: ridiculously underrated. I have him as a third round pick.
Speaker 1: But I think Cameron Jergens Nebraska is better value at
Speaker 1: the end of round two for the Bengals than say,
Speaker 1: Tyler Linderbaum is the end of round one. And then
Speaker 1: you get guys like Zach tom of Wick Forrest, Dylan
Speaker 1: Palm of Memphis. Those are all maybe late Day two,
Speaker 1: early day three guys who I think have got a
Speaker 1: tremendous tremendous amount of upside potential. But if you're looking
Speaker 1: at the Bengals the end of round one, I think
Speaker 1: you got to consider cornerback. You gotta see which cornerback
Speaker 1: is still available, and they could potentially get a very
Speaker 1: good one there. I think your top three cornerbacks Am
Speaker 1: Odd Gardner of Cincinnati, Derek Stingley of LSU, Trent McDuffie
Speaker 1: Washington will be off the board, but still whether it's
Speaker 1: Roger McCreary of Auburn, kar Elam of Florida, Andrew Booth
Speaker 1: of Clemson, Kylie Gordon of Washington, although some people think
Speaker 1: that Gordon could be a late first round choice. Those
Speaker 1: are all going to be considerations. Those are all good prospects,
Speaker 1: and I think those are all upgrades over what the
Speaker 1: Bengals presently have at cornerback. Of the four corners you
Speaker 1: just mentioned McCreery, Elam, Gordon, and Booth, do you like
Speaker 1: two more than the others? I love Roger McCreary of Auburn.
Speaker 1: I mean, he's a tremendous shutdown cornerback. He gets it
Speaker 1: between the ears, he's got great ball skills. What he
Speaker 1: does is he does a tremendous job making plays with
Speaker 1: his back to the ball, almost knowing when the ball
Speaker 1: is in his air, and getting his head back around
Speaker 1: the position himself against the opponents to make plays on
Speaker 1: the ball. And I recommend anybody go back and watch
Speaker 1: that Alabama Auburn game which ended the regular season last year,
Speaker 1: and he was dynamite against those two outstanding Alabama receivers.
Speaker 1: A problem with McCreary is he's under five foot he's
Speaker 1: under six foot tall. He's five ft eleven, ran in
Speaker 1: the low four fives at the combine, and he's got
Speaker 1: short arms, which is going to downgrade him. But he's
Speaker 1: got outstanding cover skills. I also like Ker Elam a lot.
Speaker 1: He's a big, physical guy, he's fast, he shows some
Speaker 1: solid ball skills. I think the issue with Elam is
Speaker 1: opponents purposely stayed away from him. They threw the ball
Speaker 1: in the opposite direction or the opposite side of the
Speaker 1: field of where he was. And sometimes that's a little
Speaker 1: bit difficult to completely scout a player like that. But
Speaker 1: I think Elam's got a tremendous amount of upside potential.
Speaker 1: I like him a lot as well. Tony Pauline is
Speaker 1: our guest. He is the chief draft analyst for Pro
Speaker 1: Football Network dot Com. Last week, the Bengals reportedly hosted
Speaker 1: Houston defensive lineman Logan Hall on a pre draft visit.
Speaker 1: What's your scouting report on Logan Hall? And could you
Speaker 1: see him going as high as thirty one? No, I
Speaker 1: don't think he's the first round pick. I think he's
Speaker 1: a Day two selection. He's a very athletic guy who's
Speaker 1: just hitting his stride. He's a bit of a tweeter,
Speaker 1: you know. Is he a defensive end? Is he a
Speaker 1: defensive tackle? Is he a three technique guy? I think
Speaker 1: he's got to get a little bit bigger. He's got
Speaker 1: to get a little bit stronger. I think he's got
Speaker 1: some upside, But I think that the Bengals can fit
Speaker 1: other positions of need with guys who will be able
Speaker 1: to bring more immediate impact as rookies, as opposed to Hall,
Speaker 1: who I think is going to need a little bit
Speaker 1: of time. I like Hall, but I like Hall as
Speaker 1: a late second round pick and a guy that will
Speaker 1: be a real good player two or three years down
Speaker 1: the road. Tony offensive line is not the obvious need
Speaker 1: that it was before free agency since the Bengals went
Speaker 1: out and signed three guys, But there's still one opening
Speaker 1: on paper for now. Left guard hasn't completely been determined.
Speaker 1: Now Ted Carris could kick over and play guard at
Speaker 1: the Bengals wind up taking a center. But let's look
Speaker 1: at the guards because the name Zion Johnson and Kenyan
Speaker 1: Green have been men and often do you like those
Speaker 1: two guys? And do you see either or both lasting
Speaker 1: as long as thirty one? I'd be surprised if both
Speaker 1: are available. Maybe one of them. I think in Zion
Speaker 1: Johnson you're getting a guy who could play guard. He
Speaker 1: also started at left tackle for Boston College for a while.
Speaker 1: I don't think He's gonna be a left tackle at
Speaker 1: the next level, but still, if your left tackle goes down,
Speaker 1: Zion Johnson successfully played that position at Boston College, so
Speaker 1: we could fill in a pinch. Zion Johnson is also
Speaker 1: a guy that successfully took snaps, etc. During Senior Bowl practices,
Speaker 1: So you're getting a guy that can, you know, play
Speaker 1: two interior positions and may be able to play left
Speaker 1: tackle in a need if your guy goes down. Kenyon
Speaker 1: Green is a big, moler guy. He's the type of
Speaker 1: guy that I think a Tyler Lindebaum, you know, would
Speaker 1: have problems with if he was on the opposite side
Speaker 1: of the ball. He's a nasty guy. He is a tough,
Speaker 1: slug it out, punching your face type of alignement. He
Speaker 1: doesn't have the versatility of Johnson. Although Kenyon Green did
Speaker 1: play a little bit left tackle, wasn't as good as
Speaker 1: Zion Johnson at left tackle, but he's a bigger guy.
Speaker 1: He's more of a smash mouth power gap lineman. I
Speaker 1: think in Johnson you're getting a good, versatile offensive lineman
Speaker 1: that can play multiple positions. You can use them in
Speaker 1: his own blocking system. I think in Kenyan Green you're
Speaker 1: looking at more of a smash you in the mouth,
Speaker 1: power gap type of lineman. The Bengals top three wide
Speaker 1: receivers are excellent, and they all stayed healthy last year,
Speaker 1: but it's unlikely that pet's going to happen in back
Speaker 1: to back seasons. How deep is the wide receiver crop
Speaker 1: in this draft and how far down would you have
Speaker 1: to go to get somebody who could contribute right away? Yeah,
Speaker 1: you should be able to get good receivers in the
Speaker 1: fourth and fifth round in this draft. You know, if
Speaker 1: you're talking about a guy in the fourth round of
Speaker 1: Romeo Dubbs of Nevada, who's Carson Strong's favorite receiver. Kyle Phillips,
Speaker 1: a smallish slot guy who does a great job running routes,
Speaker 1: could also double up as a return specialist. Boaw Melton
Speaker 1: of Rutgers a guy who I don't think was properly
Speaker 1: developed at Rutgers, primarily because they had problems on the
Speaker 1: offensive line. How the terrific Senior Bowl a week of
Speaker 1: Senior Bowl practices, ran four three four at the combines,
Speaker 1: so you know he's got that sort of upside. Taekwon
Speaker 1: Thornton of Baylor, the guy who ran four to eight
Speaker 1: during the combine. He's a toller thing guy, six two
Speaker 1: and a half one hundred and eighty one pounds, a
Speaker 1: lot of good developmental type of prospects that I think
Speaker 1: as rookies could contribute as number four receivers. Tony the
Speaker 1: Bengal's top two safeties, Jesse Bates and Von Bell, could
Speaker 1: both be in the final year of their deal. Jesse
Speaker 1: Bates was franchise tagged. Von Bell's got one year left
Speaker 1: on the contract he signed a couple of years ago.
Speaker 1: How about safety in the first few rounds? How is
Speaker 1: that crop? I think what's gonna happen with the safeties
Speaker 1: is if you want one of the top safeties. And
Speaker 1: I'm going to take Kyle Hamilton out of this equation
Speaker 1: for a variety of reasons, but if you want a
Speaker 1: top safety, you better draft them late in round one
Speaker 1: or by the middle of round two, because I think
Speaker 1: they're going to be off the board late round two
Speaker 1: at round three. I mean, you're top guys or the
Speaker 1: guys that are good safeties, terrific free safeties that goes
Speaker 1: sidelines to sideline, excellent ball skills that could go late
Speaker 1: first round early round two include US scene of Georgia,
Speaker 1: Daxton Hill of Michigan, Jerlen Petrie of Baylor, Jaquon Brisker
Speaker 1: of Penn State, the Cross of Maryland. You know, I think,
Speaker 1: except for maybe seen in Dixton Dixon, Daxton Hill, I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: all those other guys are more second round picks, but
Speaker 1: they won't be there when the Bengals are called to
Speaker 1: the clock Layton round two, I mean later on. You're
Speaker 1: talking about guys like Portell Flat of LSU, who's sort
Speaker 1: of a combo corner safety who's very good, only had
Speaker 1: one really good season at LSU, although he was good
Speaker 1: last year. A little bit ta tall, thin guy Dane
Speaker 1: Belton of Iowa, who's a fourth round pick, more of
Speaker 1: a straight line downhill safety. Ron Kinley of Oregon terrific
Speaker 1: player but not a good athlete. Could not break four
Speaker 1: six five and I'll lead up to the draft, so
Speaker 1: you're talking about Day three guys that have got a
Speaker 1: lot of limitations in their game. Quentin Lake of UCLA
Speaker 1: as someone who I absolutely love. Terrific football player, great instincts,
Speaker 1: great ball skills, but he barely broke four six in
Speaker 1: Pro day workouts in the combine, which is going to
Speaker 1: be an issue at the next level. Tony Pauline is
Speaker 1: our guest. His big board on Pro Football Network dot
Speaker 1: Com is amazing. I highly recommend checking it out. This
Speaker 1: is a Bengals podcast, but there's obviously a lot of
Speaker 1: interest in UC Bearcat prospects since up to nine guys
Speaker 1: could be drafted this year. We know Sauce Gardner is
Speaker 1: going to go in the first round. Do you think
Speaker 1: Desmond Ritter will as well? If it was up to me,
Speaker 1: I'd say no, because Desmond Ritter to me, is a
Speaker 1: Day two pick. But the information I'm getting back from
Speaker 1: teams is just about everybody has a first round great
Speaker 1: on him. And you know, one thing we've seen the
Speaker 1: past what fifteen years in the NFL draft is that
Speaker 1: quarterbacks are always overdrafted. So I'd say right now there's
Speaker 1: a better than fifty fifty chance that Desmond Ritter ends
Speaker 1: up in the first round. I have joked that my
Speaker 1: nightmare is Desmond Ridder to the rival Pittsburgh Steelers. Could
Speaker 1: you see Pittsburgh taking Ridder at number twenty. I think
Speaker 1: they're leaning more towards Malik Willis of Liberty, whether he's
Speaker 1: there at twenty or whether they have to trade up
Speaker 1: to get him. I think that's been their game plan
Speaker 1: all along. I think there's that's a possibility. Same thing
Speaker 1: with Matt Correll to the Steelers at twenty. How have
Speaker 1: super seniors changed your draft evaluation this year? Well, hasn't
Speaker 1: changed the draft evaluation. What it does is it means
Speaker 1: that there's more draftable players than there are draft slots.
Speaker 1: And you know, you go back to last year because
Speaker 1: so many seniors went back for that extra year of
Speaker 1: eligibility granted to them by the NC two A, what
Speaker 1: you had was you had players that were usually seventh
Speaker 1: type talent go in the fifth round. You had players
Speaker 1: that usually would have been priority free agents end up
Speaker 1: being selected in a draft. The opposite's going to happen
Speaker 1: this year. There's going to be a ton of plethora
Speaker 1: of talent in Day three. So what's going to happen
Speaker 1: is guys that will usually be fourth or fifth round
Speaker 1: value could go six or seventh round just because of
Speaker 1: the numbers, and guys that have draftable grades may end
Speaker 1: up not getting drafted drafted at all. So basically, on
Speaker 1: my board, there's only two fifty five players selected in
Speaker 1: a draft. I have about two hundred and eighty players
Speaker 1: with draftable grades. And that is primarily because so many
Speaker 1: players went back for that second senior season that was
Speaker 1: granted to them by the end of two A and
Speaker 1: you've evaluated more than fourteen hundred guys correct, correct, And
Speaker 1: this is you know, a couple of years process. This
Speaker 1: hasn't done over the course of months. I mean most
Speaker 1: of these guys I have notes on for two and
Speaker 1: three years. That's why I like to look at the
Speaker 1: body of work. I can talk about a guy like
Speaker 1: or extinctly throughout his career. So yeah, the evaluations are
Speaker 1: done over the course of their college careers. Obviously, more
Speaker 1: emphasis is put on the final year before they entered
Speaker 1: the draft, but you can't forget about the early seasons
Speaker 1: while they were on the college field. Well, Tony, as
Speaker 1: I mentioned, your big board is awesome. The mock simulator
Speaker 1: on Pro Football Network dot Com is addictive. I love
Speaker 1: them both and I really appreciate your time and your
Speaker 1: expertise today. Thank you so much, thanks for having me again.
Speaker 1: That's going to do it for this episode of The
Speaker 1: Bengals Booth podcast presented by Ultimate Bengals. Download Ultimate Bengals
Speaker 1: ahead of the twenty twenty two season. It's free to
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Speaker 1: find us. I'm Dan Horde and thanks for listening to
Speaker 1: the Bengals Booth podcast.