Speaker 1: You're listening to Comedy Central. Hey, welcome to Beyond the Scenes.
Speaker 1: This is the podcast that goes deeper into segments and
Speaker 1: topics that aired originally on the Daily Show with Trevor Noah.
Speaker 1: This is what this podcast is like. All right, So, like,
Speaker 1: you ever had a chicken pot pie? And I'm not
Speaker 1: talking about a frozen pot pie. I'm talking about one
Speaker 1: of them, homemade straight out the oven pop pies. One
Speaker 1: of them pot pie is made from somebody in a
Speaker 1: good marriage them the best taste in pot pies. And
Speaker 1: so you have a pot pie and it's good, but
Speaker 1: you never know whether or not there's crust on the
Speaker 1: bottom of the pot pie dish. Right, That's what this
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Speaker 1: because everybody likes mow crust. And that's what this podcast is.
Speaker 1: It's the more crust of the Daily Show universe. I'm
Speaker 1: Roy Wood Jr. And in honor of women's history, we're
Speaker 1: taking a look at the powerful and influential roles that
Speaker 1: the first ladies have played throughout history. Let's roll to
Speaker 1: clip the first Lady.
Speaker 2: It's not a job that's actually in the Constitution, but
Speaker 2: that's just because in seventeen eighty seven, women hadn't been
Speaker 2: invented yet. And even though first Lady is not an
Speaker 2: official role, they've been important figures in the country from
Speaker 2: the very beginning. Maybe the most fascinating thing about first
Speaker 2: ladies is that even though no one votes for them
Speaker 2: and they kind of make up the job as they go,
Speaker 2: just by virtue of being married to the president, they
Speaker 2: can end up having a lot more power than many
Speaker 2: elected officials. The first Lady is the most powerful woman
Speaker 2: in the country because she has the ear first.
Speaker 3: Thing in the morning and last thing at night.
Speaker 2: Of the most powerful man in the country.
Speaker 4: Going back to the very first first Lady, Martha Washington
Speaker 4: and the second one, Abigail Adams, both of them were
Speaker 4: politically involved. They were involved in cabinet decisions, They were
Speaker 4: involved in campaign These women were political partners.
Speaker 5: Nancy Reagan was pulling a lot of the strings, calling
Speaker 5: many of the shots. From President Ronald Reagan's first campaign
Speaker 5: for the White House back in nineteen eighty to his
Speaker 5: Cold War ending triumph in nineteen eighty seven.
Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton became more involved, obviously in policymaking than any
Speaker 1: first lady before her.
Speaker 3: She had an office in the West wing.
Speaker 6: Bill Clinton even ran on the slogan buy one, get
Speaker 6: one free.
Speaker 7: In nineteen nineteen, Edith Wilson was unofficially running the country
Speaker 7: after her husband Woodrow suffered a stroke.
Speaker 1: Today, I'm joined by Daily Show producer and very sad
Speaker 1: Tampa Bay Buccaneers fan because Brady retired, Jeff Gusso, Jeff,
Speaker 1: welcome to the show. How you been?
Speaker 8: I'm good man? How you doing?
Speaker 1: Roy? Look, it's Brady's been going about a month.
Speaker 4: Man.
Speaker 1: It's okay, man. You got to get past it, you know.
Speaker 8: I'm sure the bucks looks like again next year.
Speaker 1: So we're also joined by CNN contributor and New York
Speaker 1: Times best selling author of the book First Women, The
Speaker 1: Grace and Power of America's First Ladies and the Residents,
Speaker 1: Kate Anderson Brower. Thank you for joining us and going
Speaker 1: beyond the scenes with us today. How are you?
Speaker 3: I'm great? Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 1: I'm excited the elegance. You hear that, Jeff, you hear
Speaker 1: the elegance. This is gonna be a good ass conversation. So, Jeff,
Speaker 1: before I get to you, ladies, first, Kate, help us
Speaker 1: for the people who don't know myself included help us
Speaker 1: understand the role of the first lady. You know, it's
Speaker 1: it's unpaid first and foremot we want to talk about
Speaker 1: some inequity. It's an unelected role. There really doesn't seem
Speaker 1: to be a rule book on what you can and
Speaker 1: can't or should and shouldn't do. But yet everybody has
Speaker 1: an opinion on what a first lady should or shouldn't
Speaker 1: be doing. So what are some of the expectations of
Speaker 1: the role.
Speaker 6: Well, it's a very archaic, old fashioned title, right, you know.
Speaker 6: Jackie Kennedy said that she never wanted to be called
Speaker 6: first lady. It sounded like a saddle horse. She said,
Speaker 6: it was like a demeaning name. It's very arcane because
Speaker 6: people don't understand it, and even years of studying it myself,
Speaker 6: I've found it to be completely dependent on the person
Speaker 6: who has the position. One person wrote to Betty Ford,
Speaker 6: who was first Lady in the seventies, and said, you're
Speaker 6: constitutionally required to be perfect.
Speaker 3: And I think that kind of sums it up.
Speaker 6: They are supposed to be ideal wives and mothers, the
Speaker 6: symbol of what it is to be an American woman,
Speaker 6: juggling everything and each of them fails in their own way,
Speaker 6: and I think they feel as though, after a little
Speaker 6: bit of time in the position, that they just have
Speaker 6: to make it their own and do what they want
Speaker 6: with it, because, as Rosalind Carter said, no matter what,
Speaker 6: you're going to be criticized. And you know, there's a
Speaker 6: lot of sexism obviously and in the world still, and
Speaker 6: I think that there's a sense that each woman is
Speaker 6: held up to these very unfairpecs, and so they have
Speaker 6: to make the role their own. And there's nothing in
Speaker 6: the constitution that describes what they have to do, so
Speaker 6: they can do as little like Milania Trump, for instance,
Speaker 6: or as much like eleanor Roosevelt or Hillary Clinton or
Speaker 6: Michelle Obama, these women that really took the role incredibly seriously.
Speaker 3: So it just depends on each woman.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because you know Michelle Obama, you know she it
Speaker 1: was the school Lunch initiative, you know, healthier nutrition, you know,
Speaker 1: the Let's Move program. You know, you look at everything
Speaker 1: that Betty Fortt was doing with regards to you know,
Speaker 1: just being vocal about women's issues. We don't have to
Speaker 1: talk about Nancy Reagan and just say no, we know
Speaker 1: the history of that, how do some of the expectations
Speaker 1: of the first lady play into some of the gender
Speaker 1: norms and gender roles that I believe a lot of
Speaker 1: women are trying to break out of, or at least
Speaker 1: trying to change what the base level expectations are of
Speaker 1: a first seight, because you know, they're responsible for a
Speaker 1: lot of the domestic duties in the white not literally
Speaker 1: cleaning and cooking, but organizing the social events and oh,
Speaker 1: you got to decorate the tree, and we have to
Speaker 1: make sure everything is set for dinner. Like how much
Speaker 1: of those expectations are part of the role.
Speaker 6: I mean, one of the funniest things that happened during
Speaker 6: the Trump administration was when Milania, you know there, was
Speaker 6: caught talking to a friend on the phone and saying
Speaker 6: something about how she just didn't want to deal with
Speaker 6: the stupid Christmas decorations. And I think everyone was like
Speaker 6: agast at that because that's what the job is, and
Speaker 6: it just looked bad too.
Speaker 7: They say, I'm more uncompleted.
Speaker 8: I'm the same like him.
Speaker 9: I support him. I don't say enough, I don't do
Speaker 9: enough where I am I put I'm working like a ass.
Speaker 9: I know Christmas stuff that you know who gives a
Speaker 9: about Christmas stuff and the curation.
Speaker 6: But I need to do it right.
Speaker 3: But I mean, look at Michelle Obama.
Speaker 6: She was making you know, almost three hundred thousand dollars
Speaker 6: at the University of Chicago Medical Center in their communications office.
Speaker 3: She went to Harvard and.
Speaker 6: She's incredibly well educated, and yet her role was in
Speaker 6: many ways to just take care of the daughters.
Speaker 3: And there's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 6: The mother in chief role that Michelle Obama took up
Speaker 6: was really powerful, especially for you know, a black woman.
Speaker 6: I thought that that was really important for her to
Speaker 6: make this point that she was going to focus on
Speaker 6: her daughters, and there was nothing wrong with that. I
Speaker 6: think that you have to be able to just accept
Speaker 6: women doing as much or as little as they want.
Speaker 6: Then you see Hillary Clinton, who had an office in
Speaker 6: the West Wing and she always regretted having that office
Speaker 6: because she realized that she overstepped that the American people
Speaker 6: were not ready for it. And I think that's unfortunate.
Speaker 6: Right that we have a moved beyond that, and I
Speaker 6: think it's going to take a first gentleman, if that's
Speaker 6: what we call him, to be okay with a woman
Speaker 6: doing as much or as little as she as she wants.
Speaker 6: I mean, if Bill Clinton were first gentleman, I think
Speaker 6: that no one would be expecting him to be, you know, beig.
Speaker 1: Cookies, arranging the Christmas decoration and redesigning the White House lawn.
Speaker 1: That's why, Jeff, that's why I was like, in a
Speaker 1: weird way during the last election, I was kind of
Speaker 1: pulling for Corey Booker just because I wanted the chaos
Speaker 1: of an unmarried man in the White House, Like, who's
Speaker 1: gonna do what if? Like, granted he's in a relationship
Speaker 1: with Rosario Dawson at the time, but you know, are
Speaker 1: you still a first lady if your first girlfriend? Like
Speaker 1: I wanted chaos? Dude, what was like the main inspiration
Speaker 1: for putting this piece together? And just talk to us
Speaker 1: a little bit about the ideation of that at the
Speaker 1: Daily Show.
Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean, you know, it was about November twenty twenty,
Speaker 8: the election, I think had just happened, and we were
Speaker 8: sort of like looking at like all the changes that
Speaker 8: were about to happen with Joe Biden and doctor Joe
Speaker 8: Biden coming in in January, and I think we were
Speaker 8: trying to like, you know, we just wanted to focus on,
Speaker 8: like what is this role? What is this handoff between
Speaker 8: Milania Trump to Joe Biden? And you know, what is
Speaker 8: the history? What are the expectations? Four years of Donald
Speaker 8: Trump and Milinia Trump had been so chaotic and like,
Speaker 8: was what Malinnia Trump did normal?
Speaker 1: Was it not normal?
Speaker 8: What is expected of Joe Biden? So we wanted to
Speaker 8: honor these ladies, but we also wanted to like get
Speaker 8: the crux of like, you know, how the job can
Speaker 8: be good and how the job can be bad. You know,
Speaker 8: give it, you know, give people full sense of it,
Speaker 8: you know, which is difficult in ten minutes, but you know,
Speaker 8: that was the big idea of what we were trying
Speaker 8: to get to.
Speaker 1: It's interesting because you know, it's a role where, you know,
Speaker 1: traditionally they all have to champion some sort of social calls,
Speaker 1: you know, and you know it, and that's been the
Speaker 1: traditional Traditionally, you have to have something that you really
Speaker 1: give a lot of extra, give a damn about, and
Speaker 1: you have to roll out a plan about that to
Speaker 1: the American people over the next four years and hopefully
Speaker 1: with no scandals messing it up in the meantime. But
Speaker 1: I feel like the role has evolved over the years.
Speaker 1: What are some of the ways that first ladies just
Speaker 1: in the research that you've seen, Jeff, what are some
Speaker 1: of the ways that the first ladies have kind of
Speaker 1: made this role their own? And I will love to
Speaker 1: hear from you as well on that, Kate.
Speaker 8: When we were developing the peace chronologically, when we had
Speaker 8: like eleanor Roosevelt, like that was a big one that
Speaker 8: like there was so much to unpack and we felt
Speaker 8: like that was really like where it changed, where it
Speaker 8: was like more front where you could be visibly like, uh,
Speaker 8: you know, pushing for these causes and you know, advocating
Speaker 8: on beliefs. Each one made it their own, and so
Speaker 8: like the connecting line through them all was like they
Speaker 8: each had their cause like that they would believe in.
Speaker 8: They were supporting their their husbands and the presidents, but
Speaker 8: they were also like advocating for like women's issues and
Speaker 8: social causes that like would help further you know generations.
Speaker 4: From the earliest days, America's first ladies were referred to
Speaker 4: as Lady Presidentiists or Republican Queen.
Speaker 5: The term first Lady didn't come into use really until
Speaker 5: Dolly Madison's time.
Speaker 1: The fourth First Lady pioneered the practice of championing social causes.
Speaker 3: She helped orphan children and supported women's.
Speaker 7: Rights, And it said that at missus Madison's funeral, President
Speaker 7: Zach Taylor eulogized her as the country's first Lady, the
Speaker 7: first time that title was ever used.
Speaker 6: I was just thinking about what you were saying Roy earlier,
Speaker 6: about if Corey Booker had been elected, and I think
Speaker 6: his mother or his sister or niece or someone would
Speaker 6: have stepped in to take over the role, because there's
Speaker 6: just no way that they would let that go, like
Speaker 6: somebody needs to.
Speaker 3: Fill in, And we saw Thomas Jefferson.
Speaker 10: Yes you need a woman, And I still don't know why,
Speaker 10: but we feel the need to have this position, and
Speaker 10: like James Buchanan was a bachelor and his niece, Harriet Lane,
Speaker 10: you know, took over this going back in the nineteenth century.
Speaker 3: But like the idea that we would elect.
Speaker 6: An unmarried person as president, I think is such an
Speaker 6: interesting question because we attached so much, like you know,
Speaker 6: meaning to being married and having a family, and like
Speaker 6: how that would make you responsible. And I just I
Speaker 6: feel like we haven't moved far enough away from.
Speaker 3: Those really old fashioned ideas.
Speaker 1: No the First Lady is arguably one of the most
Speaker 1: important advisors to the president. I don't believe that it
Speaker 1: was a coincidence that, you know, you know, Reagan ran
Speaker 1: a big deal on having a war on drugs and
Speaker 1: then Nancy had just say, no, how much of a
Speaker 1: role or how much influence does the First Lady have?
Speaker 1: Like in what ways her First Lady's impacted policy in
Speaker 1: this country?
Speaker 6: I mean, a very recent example is Michelle Obama with
Speaker 6: her Let's Move campaign that you mentioned earlier about you know,
Speaker 6: having healthy lunches and ketchup doesn't count as a vegetable
Speaker 6: in school lunches and all of that. She was really
Speaker 6: China continue make it like a very healthy, you know
Speaker 6: environment for kids who sometimes you know, hot lunch is
Speaker 6: like their only meal of the day for some kids
Speaker 6: in this country, which is just like terrible. And so
Speaker 6: she really wanted to make sure they had new, tricious food.
Speaker 6: And Matt dovetailed with the Let's Move campaign, which was
Speaker 6: about exercise, and with her husband's childcare nutrition bill that
Speaker 6: they were trying to get through Congress, and so she
Speaker 6: would make calls to senators and members of Congress trying
Speaker 6: to push that bill through and that's a real example
Speaker 6: of a first lady getting involved in policy.
Speaker 3: Hillary Clinton wanted Ruth.
Speaker 6: Bader Ginsburg on the Supreme Court and let her husband
Speaker 6: know that she was the right pick. So there are actual,
Speaker 6: real ways that they're getting involved. And they call it
Speaker 6: pillow talk, which I still think is kind of silly,
Speaker 6: but the idea that at night, this is the last
Speaker 6: person they're the president's presumably going to be seeing, so
Speaker 6: they can influence policy. But like you mentioned Betty Ford,
Speaker 6: and I think a lot of people know about what
Speaker 6: she did to talk about drug and alcohol addiction, but
Speaker 6: that happened after she was in office, like that, the
Speaker 6: Betty Ford Center was years later, And so I think
Speaker 6: they have this tremendous power for the rest of their
Speaker 6: lives if they choose to use it.
Speaker 1: So we all know that Nancy Reagan was one of
Speaker 1: the people that got you know, her husband to fire
Speaker 1: Donald Reagan, who was then his chief of staff. And
Speaker 1: then this one doesn't necessarily compare the same because it
Speaker 1: was one hundred years ago, but we also know that,
Speaker 1: you know, I think it was it was it Woodrow
Speaker 1: Wilson that I have the stroke and Edith, and Edith
Speaker 1: was running the country after her husband, like not intern
Speaker 1: official capacity, but unofficially she would, you know, Woodrow whispering,
Speaker 1: this is what you need to tell him to do,
Speaker 1: and then she would go password to the vice president.
Speaker 1: Does that support system make the president stronger or is
Speaker 1: it like where's the line of hey, here's what you
Speaker 1: should do versus he let me do my job.
Speaker 6: I mean, that's such a good question when you bring
Speaker 6: up Edith and Nancy, those are two first ladies. The
Speaker 6: reasons why they were so powerful is they decided who
Speaker 6: could see their husbands, right Like Nancy Reagan decided who
Speaker 6: would be chief of staff. She decided even when they
Speaker 6: were putting the cabinet together, who should be in the cabinet.
Speaker 6: And then Edith Wilson was keeping people away from her
Speaker 6: husband when he was sick. So it's the idea of
Speaker 6: who's controlling the people who can get into the oval
Speaker 6: office or have the president's here. So I think that
Speaker 6: that's where the power lies in the position of first lady,
Speaker 6: is being that person who can control people who have
Speaker 6: access to their husband. And I think a lot of
Speaker 6: people would say first ladies shouldn't have any control, right
Speaker 6: because they're not elected.
Speaker 1: I would argue that most first ladies that have kind
Speaker 1: of been doing the pillow talk has been for the
Speaker 1: better of the country, not necessarily for the detriment. We
Speaker 1: don't know if Milania ever slept in the sing be
Speaker 1: but Trump after maybe the first year. But in terms
Speaker 1: of understanding just how influential this role is. Why do
Speaker 1: women have to live in the shadows and be unpaid
Speaker 1: in that regard? If you have a stroke and I'm
Speaker 1: the middle man between you and the chief of staff
Speaker 1: when the bombs again, this is back in the night
Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds, Prohibition, War War one was around the corner.
Speaker 1: Should I get a little bit of money for being
Speaker 1: a first lady?
Speaker 6: It is ridiculous, And that's what doctor Biden is trying
Speaker 6: to do. I think by having a job, by being
Speaker 6: paid for that job. She's teaching, of course, and she
Speaker 6: had taught her entire life. The only time she took
Speaker 6: a break was during the campaign. And I think that
Speaker 6: it's important that women be able to continue their jobs.
Speaker 6: And Laura Bush, it's not a partisan thing either.
Speaker 3: Laura Bush said the same thing.
Speaker 6: She said, first ladies should be, you know, given the
Speaker 6: opportunity to pursue whatever career they had. I mean, you
Speaker 6: cannot expect Hillary Clinton to just sit idly by. And
Speaker 6: I think I think that being paid for being First
Speaker 6: Lady is different than being paid for continuing your job
Speaker 6: as a teacher, which is outside you know, the role.
Speaker 6: I think that's easier to convince people it's.
Speaker 8: Okay, especially like as much work, like you know, still
Speaker 8: expectations of like stuff doing at the White House, but
Speaker 8: like you know, Jill Biden has been traveling all over
Speaker 8: you know, visiting you know, tornado victims and things like that.
Speaker 8: So like there's still just a lot of work as
Speaker 8: well that they are doing and still expected to do
Speaker 8: as well, and like to not get paid for that,
Speaker 8: but also have an office that like with a staff
Speaker 8: that reports to them. Like, why is the boss not paid?
Speaker 3: That's a good point.
Speaker 1: Well, you're paid for prestige and the book deal. After
Speaker 1: you leave office this day, you get faith. Jeff, what
Speaker 1: what didn't make it into the piece? Because that's the
Speaker 1: thing I'm always curious about you all right, what argument
Speaker 1: did y'all have when this piece was thirteen minutes and
Speaker 1: you knew you had to chop it down to ten?
Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean, you know, every woman that's been a
Speaker 8: first lady has. Like you know, there's documentaries about them,
Speaker 8: there's books about them, Like there's hundreds of sources on them,
Speaker 8: and stories to tell, and like it's very difficult to
Speaker 8: like narrow it down. And like right off the top,
Speaker 8: Dolly Madison was where we sort of started this piece,
Speaker 8: and like, you know, one of the stories that was
Speaker 8: interesting but we just didn't have time for it was
Speaker 8: like her saving like all these you know, government documents
Speaker 8: in the Washington portrait when the British were storming of
Speaker 8: the White House, and it was just like a fascinating story,
Speaker 8: but like we just didn't have the time to like
Speaker 8: explain that story. Eleanor Roosevelt we spent one entire role on.
Speaker 8: And there was like two stories that like I thought
Speaker 8: were really interesting but we just didn't have room for.
Speaker 8: One was that, like you know, she was very a
Speaker 8: big advocate for the anti lynching legislation and the KKK
Speaker 8: put it like a bounty on her. And then she
Speaker 8: also would hold women only press conferences. A lot of
Speaker 8: newspapers that only had men reporters would have to either
Speaker 8: hire women reporters or you know, get women to report
Speaker 8: on these stories and to like it's saved with these
Speaker 8: jobs and like was a real force for like having
Speaker 8: women enter into journalism. And so you know, you're condensing
Speaker 8: all this history into like you know, it's a thirteen
Speaker 8: minute piece, and like the sound bites that we use
Speaker 8: are like a minute each roughly, so you know, trying
Speaker 8: to tell eleanor Roosevelt's entire story and a minute is impossible.
Speaker 1: After the break, I want to get into now that
Speaker 1: we know the role in the expectations of the first Lady,
Speaker 1: the criticism and the haters who love or talk that shit. Kate,
Speaker 1: I want you to break down all the shit talking
Speaker 1: and hating and unrealistic expectations that first ladies go through.
Speaker 1: It's Women's History Month. We are going beyond the scenes
Speaker 1: on the history of the First Lady and also first Dude.
Speaker 1: We'll talk about him a little later, the first Gentleman.
Speaker 1: Gentle I think you should be due first Dude. No
Speaker 1: y'all disagree, Okay, that's right. We have the scenes when
Speaker 1: we come back. Kate, we were talking in the previous
Speaker 1: break about the expectations and whether or not some women
Speaker 1: want to deal with the stress of that and Milania
Speaker 1: being you know, caught off the what she thought was
Speaker 1: off the record, complaining about some of the stuff, which
Speaker 1: also I didn't Jeff, did you all come across this
Speaker 1: in your research that if Milania didn't want to be
Speaker 1: first Lady, Ivanka was gonna stay at the end like
Speaker 1: a subject like first of a daughter lady.
Speaker 8: Do you remember that story, Like Malani was going to
Speaker 8: stay in New York if I remember correctly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she wasn't going to go to the White House.
Speaker 8: And that lasted for what a few months before they
Speaker 8: decided to move down there because like security was an
Speaker 8: issue and like they just decided to to make it easier.
Speaker 8: Maybe I must remember that. I think that was, but yeah,
Speaker 8: it was, Yeah, that is true.
Speaker 6: And Michelle Obama and some of the other first Ladies
Speaker 6: were like jealous of Milania for doing that, because Milania,
Speaker 6: like the expectation was you move to the White House
Speaker 6: when your husband moves into the residence.
Speaker 3: And she just flipped the script and didn't do it.
Speaker 6: And I think that that these other women were like,
Speaker 6: what I could have done the same thing, Like none
Speaker 6: of them really wanted to move in right away. So
Speaker 6: in a way, that was one of the more interesting things.
Speaker 6: And I think it kind of great thing. Well, you know,
Speaker 6: she did a lot of terrible things I think as
Speaker 6: source lady, but one of the good things was not
Speaker 6: doing what we all expected her to do all the time.
Speaker 1: And that brings me to the scrutiny because let's let's
Speaker 1: be real, none of these women asked for this role.
Speaker 1: They just married a dude and then one day the
Speaker 1: dude was like, Hey, I want to be in charge
Speaker 1: of everything. I'm gonna need you to bake cookies and
Speaker 1: pet the dog and take nice photos. And if you
Speaker 1: don't move a certain way within that, within that construct,
Speaker 1: you get scrutiny from the press, social media. Now twenty
Speaker 1: four hour news cycle hasn't helped at all. How do
Speaker 1: the first ladies, like, how do they how do they
Speaker 1: handle that constant scrutiny? And number one, how you keep
Speaker 1: from going crazy? Kate? How do you keep from going crazy?
Speaker 1: Especially if you Malani, you know, Milania didn't think he
Speaker 1: was gonna win. I'm gonna be president? That this nice
Speaker 1: don't know where's money? Give me?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: How did the first ladies? How do they deal with
Speaker 1: that scrutiny? You know and try and keep their head
Speaker 1: on straight.
Speaker 6: You look at what happened to Ready Ford in the
Speaker 6: White House. She got addicted to painkillers and alcohol. I mean,
Speaker 6: I think a lot of them dealt with it in
Speaker 6: really unhealthy ways.
Speaker 3: I think it's really hard for them to manage it.
Speaker 6: Some of them reach out to each other, like Michelle
Speaker 6: Obama and Laura Bush talked occasionally. One of the coolest
Speaker 6: parts of this First Lady's documentary on CNN is when
Speaker 6: they show David Axelrod Obama's advisor, with Michelle Obama and
Speaker 6: it's during the campaign, and she's like, I don't understand
Speaker 6: in two thousand and eight why people think that I'm
Speaker 6: angry and not like approachable. And he just played this
Speaker 6: video of her speech with the sound off, and he's like,
Speaker 6: look at your facial expressions, Look how you come across.
Speaker 6: And she was like, she was just stunned because that's
Speaker 6: not how she saw herself. That's not how people who
Speaker 6: knew her saw her.
Speaker 8: I called her in to show her what people were seeing,
Speaker 8: and I earned the sound down and just let her
Speaker 8: see herself.
Speaker 4: In a country, in a world based.
Speaker 3: She got it immediately. She was getting all of this.
Speaker 6: You know, remember when she said the phrase and I'm
Speaker 6: gonna butcher it, but it's about you know, I'm proud
Speaker 6: of my country for the first time, and it wasn't
Speaker 6: quite that harshly said, but that was seized upon by
Speaker 6: the right and made into this huge, huge issue.
Speaker 9: Hope is making a comeback. It is making a comeback.
Speaker 9: And let me tell you something, for the first time
Speaker 9: in my adult lifetime, I'm really proud of my country,
Speaker 9: and not just because Barack is done well, but because
Speaker 9: I think people are hungry for change.
Speaker 6: As the first black first lady, she just had tremendous
Speaker 6: pressure and I think she leans on her good friends
Speaker 6: like Valerie Jared in the White How she you know,
Speaker 6: kept a really tight group of women around her, people
Speaker 6: she had known forever from Chicago.
Speaker 3: Her mom lived with them, which helped a lot.
Speaker 1: That probably helped im mentally.
Speaker 8: Yeah, for the Michelle Obama criticism, you know, one of
Speaker 8: the pieces in the discoveryes like we remember that, Like
Speaker 8: she was criticized for wearing shorts, you know, just like
Speaker 8: regular shorts. There's photos that were getting off a planet.
Speaker 8: I think they were going to Hawaii maybe for like
Speaker 8: one of the winter vacations, and like there was like
Speaker 8: just outrage on conservative media about like is it acceptable
Speaker 8: for Michelle Obama to be wearing shorts and that?
Speaker 1: So then to that point, Jeff, in your research, and
Speaker 1: I'm sure this is probably a lot more recent, let's
Speaker 1: just say, from Clinton onward, did you see a double standard?
Speaker 1: Like just in watching the footage as you're just going
Speaker 1: through hours and hours of footage, is their double standard?
Speaker 1: And how liberal versus conservative media, Like, let's just go
Speaker 1: with Fox News. If Michelle Obama can't wear shorts, Barack
Speaker 1: can't wear a tan suit? Bla on a jacket then
Speaker 1: on the back it said fuck all of y'all something.
Speaker 1: Let me ask K Kate, is that what did I say?
Speaker 3: I don't think K exactly say that. I really I don't.
Speaker 3: I really don't care, do you?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 8: It was like a thousand dollars jacket too, right, Like
Speaker 8: it was like a like a really expensive jacket.
Speaker 6: It was a really No, it was like a forty
Speaker 6: dollars jacket, which made it even weirder because she normally
Speaker 6: wore fifty thousand dollars jackets.
Speaker 3: So it made no sense.
Speaker 1: But is there is there a double standard Jeff? And
Speaker 1: how the media chooses to scrutinize or uplift first ladies.
Speaker 8: Now, yeah, I mean I think everyone goes to their
Speaker 8: home side and starts advocating and tearing down the other
Speaker 8: side because that's what's expected. You know, we were talking
Speaker 8: earlierbout the Michelle Obama like Let's move campaign and like
Speaker 8: you know, growing a garden and the White House and
Speaker 8: like conservative media didn't like that, Like they attacked her
Speaker 8: for encouraging kids deep vegetables. So it's you know, like
Speaker 8: carrots are a cultural worn thing. Now there was a
Speaker 8: whole thing of like mockery of like calling doctor Jill Biden,
Speaker 8: doctor Jill Biden like a degree she had earned, and
Speaker 8: it was like a cycle of news of we're not
Speaker 8: going to call her doctor. She's not an actual doctor.
Speaker 8: If you're dying in the street, she's not going to
Speaker 8: operate on you right there, So therefore she's not a doctor.
Speaker 8: And you know the same thing, like anything Malanie did
Speaker 8: would be defended. Wearing the jacket was fine, you know,
Speaker 8: no criticism.
Speaker 1: Kate, Why is there such scrutiny around what a first
Speaker 1: lady like? Historically it's always been a thing like I
Speaker 1: remember my mother and to this day, my mom talks
Speaker 1: about I want elbow length gloves like Jackie o Nasis.
Speaker 1: That's all like, I don't know what it is, but
Speaker 1: for her there is a regalness, there's an elegance that
Speaker 1: she associates with the first leader, and I too can
Speaker 1: be as elegant and grand as Jackie on nisis all
Speaker 1: the way down to oh my god, Michelle Obama showed
Speaker 1: her arms. Could you believe she out there showing arms?
Speaker 1: She looked like a baby mama. What is with the
Speaker 1: fascination and the scrutiny of what first ladies choose to wear?
Speaker 8: You know?
Speaker 6: I think that And it's interesting because that Jackie Kennedy
Speaker 6: is like the famous Chanelle suits that she would wear,
Speaker 6: the pillbox hat that was all made in America because
Speaker 6: she got criticized for wearing foreign designers, so she had
Speaker 6: knockoffs made in the US of these fancy gowns, and
Speaker 6: then she was the first first lady to bring in
Speaker 6: her you know, own basically in house stylist. I think
Speaker 6: that the thing with Michelle Obama's arms was really strange
Speaker 6: to me because there was such a fascination with them
Speaker 6: also and just how like, you know, I think she
Speaker 6: started a whole craze of women wanting to look like
Speaker 6: her too, because she is so in shape, right, and
Speaker 6: we don't see first ladies normally they're a bit dowdier
Speaker 6: like Barbara Bush, right, and they look more like your grandma,
Speaker 6: And so I think that in a way. You know,
Speaker 6: there was also a lot of positives about the arms,
Speaker 6: At least to me, I thought her arms were amazing.
Speaker 1: Dated style staples.
Speaker 3: I would argue she did like the sleeveless sheaths that
Speaker 3: she wore.
Speaker 6: But to your question about why it matters, I think
Speaker 6: it's because they can't really say anything, Like they can't
Speaker 6: come out Laura Bush is pro choice, she can't come
Speaker 6: out and say that her husband's pro life. So they
Speaker 6: can't say anything substantive. So the only way they can
Speaker 6: be heard is through these choices of what they're wearing.
Speaker 1: Do you think Hillary's pant suit plays into that same thing,
Speaker 1: because I mean, she ran for office while she was
Speaker 1: still First Lady, So it was almost like a statement
Speaker 1: in saying like, no, I'm here to handle y'all. Respect suits,
Speaker 1: as that's what people wear when you think they're here
Speaker 1: to handle business. So I'm gonna wear a pantsuit, Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think so.
Speaker 6: I think absolutely, but I think there's a risk of
Speaker 6: weighing in, like reading into it too much. Like Millennia
Speaker 6: wore white at the State of the Union one year,
Speaker 6: and we were all thinking, oh, is she a suffrage
Speaker 6: just now?
Speaker 3: Is this you know, white is the color of the
Speaker 3: suffrage movement, and you.
Speaker 6: Know, is she is this a hidden message to her
Speaker 6: husband when really we see that was just what democrats.
Speaker 3: I think we're secretly hoping for with Milania.
Speaker 6: I think there was a lot of hope that she
Speaker 6: was this prisoner in the White House, and in reality
Speaker 6: she was really one hundred percent behind him on every issue.
Speaker 3: Tough as nails. I mean, she's not some victim.
Speaker 6: And I think we see that now that she's doing
Speaker 6: all this stuff with selling NFTs and you know, kind
Speaker 6: of making money off of the position in a way
Speaker 6: we have never seen before, because you know, usually you
Speaker 6: donate your gowns to the Smithsonian so the Americans can
Speaker 6: see it and you know it's part of American history,
Speaker 6: and not selling it to the highest bidder.
Speaker 1: You've said it at an ouption for a quarter of
Speaker 1: a million dollars and then no one bids on it,
Speaker 1: didn't they take it off the market?
Speaker 3: Well depressing that, Jeff, What does the scrutiny say though
Speaker 3: about gender expectations?
Speaker 1: You know, like you cannot show your arms, you cannot
Speaker 1: show too much leg even though we're on to Hawaii
Speaker 1: where you will wear a bikini, wait until you are
Speaker 1: alone in private to put on the bikini. And what
Speaker 1: happens you know when a first lady strays away from
Speaker 1: that ideal?
Speaker 8: It'll be interesting to see, like we were talking earlier
Speaker 8: about like you know, what happens when it's the first gentleman,
Speaker 8: Like are those like are those same criticisms like if
Speaker 8: there's you know, can a first gentleman show too much skin?
Speaker 8: Can you know? Or are they going to be criticized for
Speaker 8: what clothes they wear? Uh? You know, like you just
Speaker 8: put it in that context, like I don't think that
Speaker 8: it's not gonna happen. Exactly, it's not gonna happen. So
Speaker 8: it's it you know that right there shows like the
Speaker 8: delicate like you know, you know, high wire, you know,
Speaker 8: walk that these these women have to do to like
Speaker 8: not offend on every little thing that like someone will
Speaker 8: take offense to and like one person taking offense to
Speaker 8: you know, showing arms or legs or wearing the wrong hat.
Speaker 8: It turns into a news cycle for days and weeks,
Speaker 8: and then it becomes a thing that people are questioning
Speaker 8: and get asked about.
Speaker 1: Okay, how much does feminism play into what's happened in
Speaker 1: the last twenty years as well? And some of the
Speaker 1: choices that first ladies make that push against the societal
Speaker 1: expect the traditional societal expectations of the first lady.
Speaker 6: I mean, the point that Jeff was making is that
Speaker 6: a man in this position.
Speaker 3: Wouldn't be scrutinized because he wore.
Speaker 6: Shorts at all, and the fact that a woman would
Speaker 6: shows that we haven't really made very.
Speaker 3: Much headway, you know.
Speaker 6: And the fact that you know, I don't I mean,
Speaker 6: Michelle Obama probably I don't think she could have continued
Speaker 6: her career as a lawyer, just because there probably are
Speaker 6: conflicts of interest and all of that. But you know
Speaker 6: the fact that doctor Biden is getting criticized for using
Speaker 6: the doctor title, it's just such a sign that, you know,
Speaker 6: we haven't made the strides in the White House that
Speaker 6: we have. Outside of the White House. I think there's
Speaker 6: been more progress. I mean, listen, women still don't get
Speaker 6: paid the same as men. For the same work. So
Speaker 6: I don't think we've made enough strides. But I think
Speaker 6: for some reason, this r it's just it's ingrained in
Speaker 6: our conscience because it's the closest thing we have to
Speaker 6: the royal family, and so I feel like we treat
Speaker 6: them kind of like queens, you know, instead of professional women.
Speaker 3: And I don't know how we get out of that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because those are our two royal families, the White
Speaker 1: House and the Kardashians.
Speaker 3: That's the sad statements.
Speaker 1: Well, they both influence fashion. Before we go to the break, Jeff,
Speaker 1: how do you unpack all of this stuff and figure out, like,
Speaker 1: how do y'all zero in on what's funny? Because the
Speaker 1: balance at the show is always what do you need
Speaker 1: to know? Versus what would be entertaining? So how did
Speaker 1: you all navigate trying to put jokes in the middle
Speaker 1: of Oh yeah, she's criticized, probably racially motivate, Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: Milania might not move to Washington, d C. How do
Speaker 1: y'all navigate infusing humor into a historical segment?
Speaker 8: You know, sometimes we'll just give a bucket to some
Speaker 8: of the writers and be like, well, we could end
Speaker 8: on this story, we could end on that story. We'll
Speaker 8: give them three different stories and let them choose which
Speaker 8: one they think they have the best opportunity to make
Speaker 8: a joke off of. You know, it's not always necessarily
Speaker 8: finding the funniest footage, although that's always you know, it's
Speaker 8: always a goal. And so like, you know, we came
Speaker 8: across the footage of like Best Truman, you know, and
Speaker 8: she was, you know, she's christening these planes. We use
Speaker 8: this you know story in the piece, these Christie's these
Speaker 8: planes and she's given a champagne bottle that's not scarred,
Speaker 8: like it's not like cracked, so like you know, it
Speaker 8: doesn't break. The footage is like this nineteen forties newsreel,
Speaker 8: so it's like the you know at the airfield there's
Speaker 8: you know drama. Yeah, it takes exactly and you see
Speaker 8: the footage and they just you know, she's whacking it
Speaker 8: and whacking it over and over and over again, and
Speaker 8: like you just hear these studs and you feel so
Speaker 8: bad for this woman because it's just like that, you
Speaker 8: hear the audience laughter, and like the narrator's telling everything
Speaker 8: that's going on, and like it has to happen like
Speaker 8: half a dozen dozen times I we had been able
Speaker 8: to like just play the entire thing in its entirety,
Speaker 8: because like it just builds and the drama builds, and
Speaker 8: like you just hear it and you just feel so
Speaker 8: bad at a certain point, but you know, going on.
Speaker 6: I had never seen that before. Actually I thought that
Speaker 6: was really fun. And you feel so bad for her, you.
Speaker 8: Really do, and you're like, oh bad, Like I can't
Speaker 8: imagine like what that if that had happened today, how
Speaker 8: like crazy the news would have been of like, you know,
Speaker 8: Jill Biden not able to break a champagne bottle? What
Speaker 8: does that say about Democrats?
Speaker 1: It's like kind of feigned walking out of that sprinter
Speaker 1: during the election, Oh she got to pass it out?
Speaker 1: Is that the president.
Speaker 3: Look at Jill Biden going up on the stage.
Speaker 6: I loved that when she went up on the stage
Speaker 6: during the campaign and like went and like defended our
Speaker 6: husband against some protesters, and like you see stuff like
Speaker 6: that and you see who they are. You just see
Speaker 6: them as human beings, and we don't get to see
Speaker 6: that enough.
Speaker 3: I think for first ladies.
Speaker 8: Yeah, they definitely have to mask who they really are
Speaker 8: to like be this persona that America will accept Okay.
Speaker 1: So then right there, that's a great place to go
Speaker 1: to break because I want on the other side of
Speaker 1: the break as we wrap up here, I want to
Speaker 1: find out from both of you what you think deems
Speaker 1: a first lady successful. Just just just marinate on that,
Speaker 1: and we got to talk about first dude and what's
Speaker 1: the role of first dude because we have a chance now, Jeff,
Speaker 1: you and I to establish what the baseline rules will
Speaker 1: be first dude outfits and his role in the White House.
Speaker 1: This is beyond the scenes. We'll be right back. Kate.
Speaker 1: I'll start with you because you have a New York
Speaker 1: Times bestseller about a lot of the first ladies that
Speaker 1: occupy this space. Jeff, I don't think you have a
Speaker 1: best do you?
Speaker 8: I do not no books?
Speaker 1: Okay, So then Kate, I will start with you what
Speaker 1: makes a first lady successful? Because like I feel like
Speaker 1: with the role of president, it's not really like there's
Speaker 1: the presidency and then there's the twenty twenty year after
Speaker 1: glow when we look at the policies and how they
Speaker 1: actually matriculated or not. And I feel like a president's
Speaker 1: judged twice in a way, or you can, you know,
Speaker 1: pull a bush and do a revision it's history and
Speaker 1: sit next to Michelle Obama and give a little pieces
Speaker 1: of candy and everybody forgets it about yeah that stuff.
Speaker 1: But for the role of first lady, you know what
Speaker 1: deems a first lady successful? And what do you think
Speaker 1: of our current first lady, doctor Jill Biden.
Speaker 6: Well, we've been talking about how the role has changed
Speaker 6: or not, and how old fashioned it is and how
Speaker 6: inherently gendered it is. I think that each first lady
Speaker 6: who moves it forward just moves the ball forward.
Speaker 3: It's going to be it takes a long time to
Speaker 3: get there.
Speaker 6: But I think, you know, Michelle Obama, first Black first lady,
Speaker 6: just simply by being there, she did so much and
Speaker 6: then by doing so much good Michelle Obama had a
Speaker 6: lot of assets that other first ladies don't have. She's
Speaker 6: able to, like, be very relatable and warm, and I
Speaker 6: think some people like Milania are just not able to
Speaker 6: do that. But I think that moves the ball for it.
Speaker 6: I think Hillary Clinton did by having that West Wing
Speaker 6: office that she regretted by becoming a senator and you know,
Speaker 6: a candidate for president and the first woman to win
Speaker 6: the nomination was huge, but it's just moving the ball,
Speaker 6: you know, down the field. I don't know my sports
Speaker 6: analogies that well, but like we're you know, each each
Speaker 6: one is doing little like you know, inch by inch,
Speaker 6: And I think doctor Biden is the best recent example
Speaker 6: of that, because just by having a job is so
Speaker 6: like crazy that we think that's amazing, but it is
Speaker 6: because no one's done it. Before she gets paid, she
Speaker 6: leaves the White House, she goes to her job. That's
Speaker 6: amazing that she's done that, And a lot of people
Speaker 6: don't like it. But people were worried that she wouldn't
Speaker 6: be able to balance everything. And I think that the
Speaker 6: main problem she has is, you know, during the pandemic,
Speaker 6: is just having the ability to do the traditional things
Speaker 6: that we expect, like you know, she doesn't really have.
Speaker 1: Like one.
Speaker 3: Set platform, you know.
Speaker 6: But neither did Melania because be Best just didn't really
Speaker 6: count to me because it just was way too broad
Speaker 6: and we don't know what it meant. And like doctor Biden,
Speaker 6: I don't think I don't think she has one thing
Speaker 6: that she's latched onto yet. And and I know from
Speaker 6: you know, having talked to her and people around her
Speaker 6: that because it's because of the pandemic.
Speaker 1: Jeff, we have a second gentleman in the White House
Speaker 1: right now, and you know, number one, what do we
Speaker 1: think the role of it? Because I think it's an
Speaker 1: interesting opportunity if we're talking about gender dynamics and the
Speaker 1: role of a man than the house as it relates
Speaker 1: to supporting his woman, because I believe that what's going
Speaker 1: on between Kamala Harris and her husband, there are a
Speaker 1: lot of households like that in America where the woman
Speaker 1: is the mover and the shaker and she's the one
Speaker 1: kind of more in the forefront. What do you think
Speaker 1: the role of first gentleman will look like, you know,
Speaker 1: as we go forward, because we are having more women
Speaker 1: in politics, this is not uncommon, so Kamala is not
Speaker 1: going to be the last of this iteration of the
Speaker 1: working the working woman politician being at the forefront and
Speaker 1: the man being there and being supportive. What do you
Speaker 1: think the first gentleman should do?
Speaker 9: Like?
Speaker 1: What? What? What are the expectations?
Speaker 8: Yeah, I think it will be really interesting to watch
Speaker 8: because it's like, you know, with the with the responsibilities
Speaker 8: that are you know, handed off to first ladies right now,
Speaker 8: Like will they end up having to like decorate the
Speaker 8: Christmas trees, Like is that a responsibility? And if they are,
Speaker 8: are is it going to be like traditional where like
Speaker 8: they're on a ladder, you know, not you know, hammering
Speaker 8: up the Christmas lights? Like is that is it going
Speaker 8: to be like that traditional? Like the guy is going
Speaker 8: to be you know, hanging out the you know, mowing
Speaker 8: the lawn, you know, the front lawn. Like it'll be
Speaker 8: interesting to say, see like.
Speaker 1: How God the first gentleman, the first gentleman dug him
Speaker 1: half is now going to start up the official Congressional
Speaker 1: hedge trimmer.
Speaker 8: You know, they'll be doing the engine work on the
Speaker 8: on the beast right, you know, the limos like so
Speaker 8: let's be in the garage, like you know, if they're
Speaker 8: if there are expectations to do, like what the gender
Speaker 8: defined roles are, then like you know, those are the
Speaker 8: things that you know, we you know, seeing that role.
Speaker 8: So I hope that like if when that happens, that
Speaker 8: like you know, when it goes starts going back and
Speaker 8: forth between having a first gentleman and a first lady,
Speaker 8: when it goes back to being a first lady, that
Speaker 8: like a lot of those roles, those expectations are gone
Speaker 8: and like first ladies and women can do whatever they want,
Speaker 8: and like there isn't that gender, you know, defined roles anymore.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think another part of it as well, Kate, is,
Speaker 1: you know, when once we see a woman in office
Speaker 1: who has children and the role that the first gentleman
Speaker 1: plays in the expectations of parenting and fatherhood. I think
Speaker 1: that's probably something that'll probably be a bigger part of
Speaker 1: the conversation as we see more and more women elected
Speaker 1: into higher and higher positions in this country.
Speaker 3: I think so.
Speaker 6: And I think, you know, to Jeff's point about Doug
Speaker 6: m Hoff, like the idea that you know, we're actually
Speaker 6: not seeing him expected to play those male like that.
Speaker 6: You know, we're not expecting him to be this tough,
Speaker 6: macho guy. Like he's out there. He's very warm and
Speaker 6: fuzzy and kind of he's the consoler in the dynamic,
Speaker 6: right Kamala Harris is getting business done and she's the
Speaker 6: powerful person and right now in their relationship, and he
Speaker 6: seems okay with that. You know, he's teaching law at Georgetown,
Speaker 6: he was a corporate lawyer right in California, and he's
Speaker 6: put that you know, that's taken the back seat. And
Speaker 6: now he's out there, you know, visiting people getting COVID
Speaker 6: shots and consoling. Recently, he console the kid who was
Speaker 6: crying because they were afraid about the COVID shot. Like
Speaker 6: he's doing the stuff that we expect women to do.
Speaker 6: And I think that that's what is so great about him,
Speaker 6: is that he's just secure enough whatever in his manhood
Speaker 6: or whatever that you know, let's move forward where they
Speaker 6: don't have to be tough. He can be you know, himself.
Speaker 6: And I think I think that's a great thing about
Speaker 6: that dynamic. And I don't know why we're not talking
Speaker 6: more about it, Like, to me, that's amazing that we
Speaker 6: have a second gentleman and it doesn't get that much
Speaker 6: press attention.
Speaker 3: And I'm not sure why.
Speaker 1: What is the relationship between the first Ladies, you know,
Speaker 1: because it's a very unique shared experience that like literally
Speaker 1: less than fifty people can honestly say that they've done,
Speaker 1: Like there is there a First Ladies group chat. I know,
Speaker 1: you said Laura and Michelle, Laura Bush and Michelle Obama.
Speaker 1: You know, they talked a little bit while Michelle was
Speaker 1: in office, But I look at that as more of
Speaker 1: a transitional Here's what to expect. Girl. You need to
Speaker 1: make sure that dinner's on the table at five thirty.
Speaker 1: Eil's Donald Rumsfield, I'm coming in and cut you. But
Speaker 1: after the fact, are they still chill? Are they still friends?
Speaker 1: What's that life like now for them?
Speaker 3: I wish it's it's funny, I kind of.
Speaker 6: I talked to somebody who worked for the Obamas about this,
Speaker 6: this book I did about the First Ladies, and I
Speaker 6: was like, do they email each other?
Speaker 3: Do they go out to lunch? And He's like, this
Speaker 3: would be a great novel. It is not reality.
Speaker 6: Like the reality is Michelle Obama and Laura Bush see
Speaker 6: each other at events.
Speaker 3: They're friendly, but they're not like they're not.
Speaker 1: Hanging out, you know, spirit fingers.
Speaker 3: It's too bad.
Speaker 6: I mean, I think Joe Biden and Michelle Obama developed
Speaker 6: like a real friendship, you know, especially after bo Biden
Speaker 6: passed away.
Speaker 3: That was real.
Speaker 6: The Obama's and the Bidens, you know, Biden's grandkids or
Speaker 6: friends with the Obama's daughters. You've got that connection. And
Speaker 6: so they still are friendly and I think they do
Speaker 6: lean on each other. And to me, that's what was
Speaker 6: really sad about the transition between the Trumps. And the
Speaker 6: Biden's was there wasn't like I know, you said, it's
Speaker 6: here's what to expect, and it does seem very pro
Speaker 6: forma and kind of like humdrum.
Speaker 3: But that's really important when.
Speaker 6: The first Lady gives a tour the White House to
Speaker 6: the incoming first lady, because it's it's, you know, part
Speaker 6: of the peaceful transfer of power.
Speaker 3: It's part of tradition.
Speaker 6: It's happened since the Truman's and the fact that just
Speaker 6: didn't happen, it's terrible. And there were so many awful
Speaker 6: things going on that I think that that kind of
Speaker 6: like fell under the radar. But Malania didn't invite Joe
Speaker 6: Biden to the White House. Malania had no relationship with
Speaker 6: any other first ladies, and I think that made it
Speaker 6: even harder for her. It's stuff like that that I
Speaker 6: think does matter, even though it's the softer side of
Speaker 6: politics in the White House. You should be able to
Speaker 6: reach back to the people who came before you and
Speaker 6: not have this like awful, poisonous relationship with them, which
Speaker 6: I think was what happened with Trump and Obama.
Speaker 1: Yeah, sounds a lot like high school. Have you liked
Speaker 1: this on? So we don't talk anymore. We just had
Speaker 1: calculus together that one.
Speaker 8: But you start them on Facebook.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and also copy a lot of Michelle Obama's
Speaker 1: speeches and stuff.
Speaker 3: But oh that yeah, that's a conversation.
Speaker 1: For another another episode. So before we go, I want
Speaker 1: to test both of you all. I want to give
Speaker 1: you a little quiz. I want to test your knowledge
Speaker 1: on the first Ladies. This is a segment I'm calling
Speaker 1: First Ladies. First. We're gonna put some music right there
Speaker 1: and make it feel dramatic. Now here's what we're gonna do.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna read a fact about a first lady, and
Speaker 1: you all are going to tell me who was the
Speaker 1: first first lady to accomplish that task? Are you ready?
Speaker 8: I still know that my research went that deep, and
Speaker 8: I guess.
Speaker 1: We're gonna find out. Listen, only one of you is
Speaker 1: a New York Times bestseller with a book that is
Speaker 1: swimming in these waters. And one of you is a
Speaker 1: daily show producer who did some thorough research, but for about.
Speaker 8: A week, like a long time ago to a year ago.
Speaker 1: All right, first question, who was the first first lady
Speaker 1: to win a Grammy? Just holler it out if you
Speaker 1: know it. Either we don't have buzzer, so we don't
Speaker 1: have a budget for that.
Speaker 3: I would go with Eleanor Roosevelt.
Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton.
Speaker 8: Ah, okay, okay, I was gonna go with Michelle Obama
Speaker 8: make it recently, Michelle Obama's a solid guest Hillary Clinton.
Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety seven Best Spoken Word Album was for
Speaker 1: the audiobook of her bestseller It Takes a Village. Michelle
Speaker 1: Obama won one I think about two years ago, and
Speaker 1: that was for her memoir Becoming. Next question, who was
Speaker 1: the first first lady to seek advice from an astrologer
Speaker 1: during the presidency?
Speaker 3: Nancy Reagan. She went to this woman, Joanne Quiggley, and
Speaker 3: she actually had.
Speaker 6: A board where she had days that her husband should
Speaker 6: travel and should not travel, and she would label them
Speaker 6: green was a good day, yellow was iffy, red was bad.
Speaker 6: Because after the assassination attempt, she was so terrified that
Speaker 6: something would happen to him. She reached out to this.
Speaker 1: Astrologer and then she would pill a talker like don't
Speaker 1: you leave town next Thursday?
Speaker 6: Ronald in America, she has wouldn't let him go. It
Speaker 6: was like not going to happen. It was not on
Speaker 6: his schedule. If it was a red day. She controlled
Speaker 6: the Gallander.
Speaker 1: But Nancy, nuclear weapons are in there a whole bit.
Speaker 1: Why did I sound like Chris Farley? What a terrible
Speaker 1: Ronald Reagan? I think that's as good a place as
Speaker 1: any to end. That's all the time we have. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much today for going beyond the scenes, our
Speaker 1: guests Jeff and Kate, thank you so much for going
Speaker 1: beyond the scenes with us. Thank you. Listen to The
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