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Speaker 1: Hey everybody, it's me, W. Kamau Bell. Welcome to episode

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Speaker 1: 16 of Who's With Me. Again, I'm your host, W.

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Speaker 1: Kamau Bell. Hey, did I tell you that I have

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Speaker 1: a new children's book coming out? Rock, paper, scissors, cheese.

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Speaker 1: It's the new children's book I have coming out with

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Speaker 1: my friend, Adam Mansbach. Oops, let me get my finger

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Speaker 1: in the right place. Adam Mansbach, who you may know

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Speaker 1: from the book, Go the Fuck to Sleep. He lives

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Speaker 1: in Berkeley. I live in Oakland. We met years ago.

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Speaker 1: We're friends. We're dads. We've worked on a lot of good,

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Speaker 1: cool things, a lot of PSAs. supporting reproductive rights and

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Speaker 1: so many things. And we collaborated on this children's book

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Speaker 1: called Rock, Paper, Scissors, Cheese. And it comes out October 27th,

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Speaker 1: but we'd love you to pre-order it now from wherever

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Speaker 1: you pre-order things. Go to bookshop.org. It's illustrated by Brianna Chambers.

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Speaker 1: And if you can see, it stars my family. You

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Speaker 1: see all these hands? Those are my daughters. That's my hand.

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Speaker 1: And this is a drawing of my three daughters over here.

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Speaker 1: Here we go. We'll hold it up close. If you're

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Speaker 1: not on the If you're not watching on YouTube, I'm

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Speaker 1: holding up a cover of my new book, Rock, Paper, Scissors, Cheese.

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Speaker 1: It comes out October 27th. And on the back, here's

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Speaker 1: a picture of my whole family. And you can see,

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Speaker 1: if you look at it, it's me, my wife, my

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Speaker 1: three daughters, and my mom. It's called Rock, Paper, Scissors, Cheese.

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Speaker 1: It's a fun children's book that comes out October 27th

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Speaker 1: that you can preorder now. We'll put that in the

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Speaker 1: show notes now. I bring that up today because today

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Speaker 1: on Who's With Me, my guest is the legendary generationally

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Speaker 1: talented children's book author and illustrated Mo Willems and special guest,

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Speaker 1: his wife Cher. Cher is his main collaborator, as you'll

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Speaker 1: learn about in the show. But at some point we

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Speaker 1: were talking about Cher so much that Mo just invited Cher,

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Speaker 1: his wife, to come sit with him. And then it

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Speaker 1: turned into one of the greatest interviews we've done in

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Speaker 1: the history of this podcast. I just love that each

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Speaker 1: podcast interview is very different. And this one was very

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Speaker 1: different because Mo and Cher sat there together. We got

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Speaker 1: to talk about what it is to be a couple

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Speaker 1: working on the same project together. You know, so it's

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Speaker 1: a great interview. We'll talk more about that later. They

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Speaker 1: have a new children's book coming out September 29th called

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Speaker 1: We Really Like Cooking Slop. It's their first book together.

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Speaker 1: It's a cookbook for families. It's sort of inspired by

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Speaker 1: the book that Mo wrote in the Elephant and Piggy

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Speaker 1: series called I Really Like Slop. So this is inspired

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Speaker 1: by that, clearly. So don't be afraid. I'm sure there

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Speaker 1: are recipes in there for not slop. Anyway, Mo Willems

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Speaker 1: is great. We'll talk more about him in a little bit.

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Speaker 1: But I think it's cool to have an episode featuring two,

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Speaker 1: what I would say are two good white people when

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Speaker 1: America just lost one of its best white people, Dolly Parton,

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Speaker 1: last week. When Dolly Parton died, rest in peace, Dolly Parton,

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Speaker 1: thoughts and prayers with her family. When Dolly Parton died,

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Speaker 1: I posted across some of my social media platforms that

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Speaker 1: Dolly Parton is definitely on the list of white folks

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Speaker 1: that black people do not play about. And when I

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Speaker 1: posted that, there were a lot of black people still

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Speaker 1: coming back saying, yep, that's right. You got that right, brother.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Black people of all ages, generations saying, yep,

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Speaker 1: that's true. And then I had some white people who

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Speaker 1: were like, what does it mean don't play about? Which

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Speaker 1: is a fine thing to ask. I mean, it's a

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Speaker 1: fine thing to not know. But then some people were like,

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Speaker 1: I need you to explain it to me in the

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Speaker 1: way that only white people can do. I was like,

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to explain it. And then some people

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Speaker 1: got mad that I didn't explain it, and they started

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Speaker 1: fighting with other people in the comments. Oh, come on.

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Speaker 1: Can't we just say stuff? Can't black people just speak? Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And then I had some black people say, like, why

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Speaker 1: are we so obsessed with this white lady? And I'm not,

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Speaker 1: you know, or why are we making such a big

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Speaker 1: deal out of this white lady? I'm not making such

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Speaker 1: a big deal out of this white lady. It's probably

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Speaker 1: the first time I've ever tweeted or social mediated about

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Speaker 1: Dolly Parton. I didn't tweet about it. Uh, but I'm

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Speaker 1: of the age where Dolly Parton has been in my life,

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Speaker 1: my whole life. I don't remember a time without Dolly Parton.

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Speaker 1: And I don't remember a time when Dolly Parton was

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Speaker 1: a force for negativity. You know, Dolly Parton very famously

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Speaker 1: didn't talk about who she was voting for. She, she

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Speaker 1: apparently turned down being given presidential medals of freedom, uh,

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Speaker 1: because she just didn't want to be associated with any

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Speaker 1: one political party. And, you know, there's an argument against

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Speaker 1: doing that. But Dolly Parton was also in that era

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Speaker 1: of show business where you wanted everybody to come And

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Speaker 1: the thing that it was clear is that she actually

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Speaker 1: did want everybody in her audience. That's so whether who

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Speaker 1: she voted for, if she ever voted, that's one discussion.

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Speaker 1: But I actually think it's more important how you live

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Speaker 1: your life and how you're demonstrating your, who you are

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Speaker 1: in the world. And Dolly Parton made it clear that

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Speaker 1: she believed in inclusion. She believed, she believed in joy.

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Speaker 1: She also believed in equity. Her big philanthropy effort was

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Speaker 1: the imagination library. Apparently she, Around the country, when you

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Speaker 1: have a child that's born, you can go to the

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Speaker 1: Imagination Library. We'll put the link here, right here. And

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Speaker 1: you can tell them, I just had a kid born.

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Speaker 1: And they'll send you a new book every month for

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Speaker 1: the first five years of your kid's life. Every month

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Speaker 1: for free. Apparently, it's all around the country. Apparently, not

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Speaker 1: all zip codes do it for reasons that I'm sure

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Speaker 1: are political. But yeah, so Dolly Parton was advocating for

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Speaker 1: children's literacy, which is huge. She was born in Appalachia.

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Speaker 1: Her parents apparently did not read and write. At least

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Speaker 1: her dad didn't. And she was advocating for children's literacy.

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Speaker 1: So that alone means she is not. She's a good

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Speaker 1: white person. And she also in 2020, when Black Lives

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Speaker 1: Matter was happening, she was like, yeah, Black Lives Matter.

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Speaker 1: She said it with not a hiccup or any sort

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Speaker 1: of like gulp. She's also been very supportive of the

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Speaker 1: LGBTQ community. Apparently, she described herself as that how she

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Speaker 1: dressed was actually a version of her doing drag. She

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Speaker 1: called herself Backwoods Barbie. So, yeah, you know, I'm not

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Speaker 1: here to say Dolly Parton is better than like Harriet

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Speaker 1: Tubman or better than bell hooks or obviously Nikki Giovanni.

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Speaker 1: I keep going on. I'm just saying that the bar

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Speaker 1: for good white person is often so low that it

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Speaker 1: is great to see somebody leap over that bar and

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Speaker 1: clear it quite easily. Hey, real quick, this is Kamau

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Speaker 1: from a few hours later. I just realized I forgot

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Speaker 1: to say that a lot of the information I learned

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Speaker 1: about Dolly Parton post her passing was from a great

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Speaker 1: Lindsay Ellis video. Lindsay Ellis, if you don't know, is

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Speaker 1: a great video essayist here on YouTube, also on Nebula.

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Speaker 1: And she released a video called Yes, She Was Really

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Speaker 1: That Great that she actually had recorded before Dolly Parton

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Speaker 1: passed away and released on Friday before Dolly Parton passed away.

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Speaker 1: And it was supposed to be just on Nebula, which

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Speaker 1: is a great platform for YouTube creators who want to

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Speaker 1: be freed from some of the restrictions of YouTube. But

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Speaker 1: it is currently on YouTube for a limited time. So

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Speaker 1: go check that out. I learned a lot about Dolly

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Speaker 1: Parton from that. Like, for example, that she was friendly

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Speaker 1: with Kid Rock. So I want to give Lindsay Ellis

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Speaker 1: all the credit I can. She's an incredible video essayist.

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Speaker 1: And I wanted to make sure you check out her video.

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Speaker 1: We'll put the link somewhere. Okay, back to Kamau from

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Speaker 1: a few hours ago. And when I sit with the Willems,

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Speaker 1: Moe and Cher Willems, it is clear they are also

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Speaker 1: clearing the bar of good white person very easily. They

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Speaker 1: also advocate for children's literacy. We'll talk about that later.

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Speaker 1: They advocate for food banks. They're very big on trying

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Speaker 1: to make sure that people donate to food banks. And

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Speaker 1: the work that Moe puts out in the world, Moe

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Speaker 1: and Cher, but the work that Moe specifically writes and

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Speaker 1: creates is all about. It's kids' books for little kids.

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Speaker 1: It is about, again, inclusion, problem-solving, but also joy and silliness,

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Speaker 1: but also it shows kids. It's, it's, it's, it's also complicated.

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Speaker 1: The relationships between the characters get complicated. People can be

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Speaker 1: mad and they can be petty and they can be sarcastic,

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Speaker 1: but they get through it. I just think he's, if

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Speaker 1: you're my generation, I think he's in that Dr. Seuss

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Speaker 1: shell Silverstein level of, of, of children's book creator. And

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Speaker 1: if you're not in my generation, don't Google Dr. Seuss racism. Yeah. So, yeah. So,

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Speaker 1: Super happy to have Mo Willems on the podcast today.

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Speaker 1: Rest in peace, Dolly Parton. But also, yeah, if we

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Speaker 1: are to overcome white supremacy, which I still have plans

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Speaker 1: of doing in my lifetime, it's good to have some

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Speaker 1: good white people on our side. And, you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: not saying Dolly Parton was perfect. Although when you Google

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Speaker 1: Dolly Parton controversy, not a lot comes up. Apparently she

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Speaker 1: was friendly with Kid Rock. So, you know, nobody's perfect.

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Speaker 1: But I would like to think that Kid Rock would

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Speaker 1: be a better person if he had spent more time

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Speaker 1: with Dolly Parton. But yeah. Again, rest in peace, Dolly Parton.

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Speaker 1: Stand-up dates. September 25th and 26th, I'll be in Stanford, Connecticut.

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Speaker 1: October 1st, I'll be at Stanford University. February 20th, 2027,

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Speaker 1: I'll be at Bellingham, Washington. Also pre-order my book, Rock, Paper, Scissors, Cheese.

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Speaker 1: Pre-order Mo Willems' book. We really like cooking slop. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and enjoy the show. Hey, thanks for watching an episode

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Speaker 1: of Who's With Me? If you're on YouTube, please like

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Speaker 1: and subscribe, share, hit that hype button. I hear it

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Speaker 1: makes all the difference. Please like, subscribe, share, hit the

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Speaker 1: hype button. Thank you. Mo Willems, thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for being here.

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Speaker 2: It is my pleasure to be in this comfortable chair

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Speaker 2: with this awkward microphone.

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Speaker 1: That's good. And thank you, Cher, for being over there

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Speaker 1: in your comfortable chair.

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Speaker 2: The amazing Cher Willems.

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Speaker 1: So I start the podcast out by giving people their flowers.

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Speaker 1: because I feel like people don't hear directly enough. I mean,

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Speaker 1: if we're in show business, people say, ah. But I

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Speaker 1: mean the things that I love about you and the

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Speaker 1: collective you, So I just, cause I feel like we

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Speaker 1: don't hear enough from the world, from our people about

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Speaker 1: that stuff. So, uh, first of all, before I ever

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Speaker 1: met the two of you, I was just like, so

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Speaker 1: impressed by the work as a person who never fell

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Speaker 1: out of love with kids books as an adult.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: And then when I started reading kids books to my

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Speaker 1: three daughters, like develop some real opinions. Right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Like, really?

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Speaker 2: Well, you're the orchestra. I mean, I think it's really

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Speaker 2: important because you are the orchestra. And if the orchestra

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Speaker 2: doesn't like what they're playing, it's not going to be

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Speaker 2: a good song.

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Speaker 1: Really, and so as we sort of showed you earlier,

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Speaker 1: me and Adam Mansbach have a children's book coming out

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Speaker 1: that features my family this fall. And so when we

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Speaker 1: started to sit down to do it, I was like, okay,

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Speaker 1: it has to do this. And one thing I said

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Speaker 1: was like, and it has to rhyme because we're not

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Speaker 1: Mo Willems. I was like, children's books have to rhyme

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Speaker 1: unless there is one caveat, you're Mo Willems.

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Speaker 2: So children's books are songs.

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Speaker 1: Yes. Yes.

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Speaker 2: Because novels you read once and you can say, that's

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Speaker 2: the greatest novel I've ever read. You don't even have

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Speaker 2: to read it twice. Picture books are songs. You're going

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Speaker 2: to hear them again and again and again. So the

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Speaker 2: punchline isn't the piece. The piece is the journey that

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Speaker 2: you're there and the memory and, Oh, I'm going to

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Speaker 2: get to the juicy part or, Oh, this is going

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Speaker 2: to be the thing. So it's not, books are not

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Speaker 2: meant to be read. They're meant to be read a

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Speaker 2: billion times.

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Speaker 1: Yes. And, And I think the thing you also know

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Speaker 1: that every, because I heard you say this one time

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Speaker 1: that 50% of the book is the person who's reading it.

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Speaker 2: 51%.

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Speaker 3: 51%.

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Speaker 1: I only do 49% of the book.

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Speaker 2: And part of that is, you know, I have a

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Speaker 2: lot to do.

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Speaker 1: I'm a busy man. You can't get 50%.

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Speaker 2: But if you do more than 50% of the book,

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Speaker 2: you're writing a VHS manual.

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Speaker 1: Right? Yeah. Because you're actually making sure. Okay, with the screwdriver.

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Speaker 1: You're telling them what it is. 49 clicks to the left.

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Speaker 2: You're telling them what the book is about. I feel

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Speaker 2: strongly about this. I feel like any writer at any time,

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Speaker 2: this is the writing process. You bang your head against

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Speaker 2: the wall and you want to make a cultural import

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Speaker 2: and you do this and you do that and it's

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Speaker 2: frustrating and it's no good and you get your craft

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Speaker 2: and you spend years and years and one day you

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Speaker 2: have the idea. And man, it's magic. And you're so excited.

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Speaker 2: You run back to your office or wherever you are

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Speaker 2: and you write the idea and you rewrite it and

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Speaker 2: you rewrite it and you give it to people and

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Speaker 2: it's terrible. Because the idea wasn't what excited you. It

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Speaker 2: was the discovery of the idea. So your job is

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Speaker 2: not to write the idea. Your job is to write

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Speaker 2: the discovery.

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Speaker 1: I'm glad this is being recorded. It's funny because I

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Speaker 1: think about that as a stand-up in that with a

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Speaker 1: bit that comes to you like, oh, oh, oh. The

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Speaker 1: moment of like, oh, this is a bit, or oh,

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Speaker 1: I can say that on stage, or oh, this would

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Speaker 1: be funny. And the job is to stay in the, oh.

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Speaker 2: You want your audience sometimes, at least my audience, and

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Speaker 2: I think, you know, I did stand up early on.

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Speaker 2: I think you want them to get to the piece

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Speaker 2: before you did. Because then they're super smart.

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Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Right? Right? And then you're just underlining the underline of

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Speaker 2: the bit or the beat or whatever it is. And

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Speaker 2: now we're all in it together.

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Speaker 1: Yes. Yes.

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Speaker 2: Right? So you're not dragging them along.

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Speaker 1: No. Right? No.

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Speaker 2: You're the rocks that they're skipping to to get to

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Speaker 2: the next place.

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Speaker 1: That's what I've always thought about. I want them to

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Speaker 1: jump the farthest distance of the punchline where they just

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Speaker 1: catch the punch.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: They just get. Because if it's like, ba-boom, and they

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Speaker 1: just land, it's not funny.

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Speaker 2: Or they overshoot it.

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Speaker 1: Or they overshoot it. Yeah, they overshoot it. Or they

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Speaker 1: don't get there. They're like, ah!

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: But you want them to just get to the other side.

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Speaker 2: It's the discovery. That's the excitement of ideas.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And the way that I came to know you,

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Speaker 1: and your book, first of all, the first Mo Willems

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Speaker 1: book I ever got is, oh my God, my brain

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Speaker 1: is blanking. I can't believe that.

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Speaker 2: This happens all the time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, this is funny. Yeah, no, this is great.

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Speaker 2: I also love when you did that joke about that

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Speaker 2: thing that I can't remember.

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Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, no, it's good.

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Speaker 2: That was a funny one. We've got another, what, 50 minutes?

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Speaker 1: I got it, got it, got it, got it, got it.

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Speaker 1: We'll keep all this in. I was just like, suddenly

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Speaker 1: I saw, here's what happened. I just saw a flood

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Speaker 1: of Piggy and Gerald books in my head, and I

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Speaker 1: was like, ah! The way that I came to know

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Speaker 1: you was my best friend, Jason, who owned a bookstore

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Speaker 1: at the time in Chicago, in Oak Park, called The

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Speaker 1: Book Table. when my wife was pregnant with our oldest

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Speaker 1: daughter was like, and he had a bookstore that like

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Speaker 1: an independent bookstore that had a thorough children's section, like

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Speaker 1: a proper, like sitting nook and a little table and

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Speaker 1: lots of seats. And like this, it's like a place

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Speaker 1: for kids to go spend some time. And he gave me,

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Speaker 1: we are in a book. And I, he was just like,

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Speaker 1: this is the guy.

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Speaker 2: That's very sweet.

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Speaker 1: And he was a, and he's a very takes books

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Speaker 1: very seriously. Obviously was an antiquarian bookseller. and really has

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Speaker 1: opinions and won't sell certain books even though they're popular

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Speaker 1: just because I'm not here. I'm not here for everybody.

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Speaker 1: You can go down the street. You can order that online.

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Speaker 1: But it was very much like put it in my

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Speaker 1: hands like this is the one. And so because it

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Speaker 1: came from Jason who I've been best friends with since

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Speaker 1: I was a sophomore in high school, I just knew like, okay, man.

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Speaker 1: And then to fall into We Are in a Book.

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Speaker 1: And I remember the first thing I was impressed about

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Speaker 1: was like, oh, this is meta. Like it's not. And,

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Speaker 1: you know, at that point I'm new to being a dad.

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Speaker 1: And I'm like, oh, this is. this book is actually

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Speaker 1: trying to actually entertain me too. And it's actually teaching

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Speaker 1: my kid like, you know, sort of meta humor. And

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Speaker 1: I was like, and, but also doesn't feel didactic. It just,

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh. And so that for us was

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Speaker 1: a great inroads into the book. And it has only

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Speaker 1: sustained throughout all three of my daughters. So much so

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Speaker 1: that when we went out to dinner in San Francisco,

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Speaker 1: me and Melissa and you and Cher, we went to

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Speaker 1: dinner and you, Drew, I guess you're a doodler, which

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Speaker 1: is no surprise.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we doodle every night at dinner.

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Speaker 1: Always, always, always. And at the end, we were leaving

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Speaker 1: and Cher, you were like, take it. He doesn't want it.

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Speaker 1: When I tell you that on our refrigerator is kid

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Speaker 1: art and your piece of art from that night.

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Speaker 2: That's the best. The idea of being in the refrigerator

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Speaker 2: museum of art.

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Speaker 1: Is a highlight. Yeah, I mean, it's just like, and

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Speaker 1: it is so great that it was because we wanted

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Speaker 1: to keep it. And where are we going to keep

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Speaker 1: it where we all display and see it every day?

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Speaker 1: It is on the refrigerator. And it's great because it's two-sided,

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Speaker 1: so every now and again you can flip it for

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Speaker 1: a different showing. Right, right, right.

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Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely.

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Speaker 1: For a different showing.

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Speaker 2: You don't have the variety there.

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Speaker 1: And just recently we had a bunch of family friends over,

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Speaker 1: and it's also that thing that happens every now and like,

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Speaker 1: Mo Willems, what?

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Speaker 2: That's great. That's great. Well, you know, actually that book

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Speaker 2: is why I'm doing this interview with you, because We

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Speaker 2: Are In A Book came from an interview. where somebody said, well,

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Speaker 2: what are elephant and piggy doing right now? And I

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Speaker 2: was like, what do you mean? They work in books.

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Speaker 2: They work in books. They know they work in books.

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Speaker 2: Maybe they don't know that they work in books.

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: Because they're fully matriculated. They're like Grover. They pay elephantine

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Speaker 2: taxes and they have, you know, poor kind bills to pay,

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Speaker 2: all of.

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Speaker 1: That kind of thing. They eat dinner, they go home

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Speaker 1: at night. Right, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think

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Speaker 1: for me, that was also like, pretty deep into the

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Speaker 1: Mo Willems catalog, right? We are in the book is pretty.

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Speaker 1: It is.

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Speaker 2: We are in a book is the middle of the

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Speaker 2: elephant and piggy books.

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Speaker 1: That's what I mean. So yeah. So we had to

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Speaker 1: go back. Right. But I just felt like it was

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Speaker 1: also like great to sort of be like, oh, this is,

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Speaker 1: it's like, you know, starting a TV like show season six.

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Speaker 1: Oh wait, I got five more seasons I can watch.

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Speaker 2: You got a lot more stuff.

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Speaker 1: And we went back through and we have, we have

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Speaker 1: been dedicated ever since. So it was funny. It took

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Speaker 1: us a while to get the pigeon. Right. Which is like,

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Speaker 1: It's like it took me a while to get to,

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Speaker 1: you know, she loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Right, right, right, right. Good, good, good, good.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like, oh, there's actually, this is the hit. Okay, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: That's great.

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Speaker 2: I love it.

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Speaker 1: So you're a full-fledged, often discussed member of the family.

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Speaker 1: The kids, we talk about you all the time. It

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Speaker 1: was so great to take my youngest to see you

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Speaker 1: at Sketch Fest, see you at Sketch Fest. And this

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Speaker 1: picture I have, which I just referenced, of you two talking. And,

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Speaker 1: you know, she's a kid, so she's not always... open

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Speaker 1: and talk sometimes she's shy even though she's not she

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Speaker 1: sometimes she pulls back but just the level of like

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Speaker 1: comfort and attention you gave to her and the comfort

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Speaker 1: she felt was like and i know this is a

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Speaker 1: celebrity that like that makes a difference and she really

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Speaker 1: like just feels like oh yeah we know him he's

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Speaker 1: our friend.

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Speaker 2: Yeah she was the most important person in the room.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate that and you know so it means a

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Speaker 1: lot and and then the thing i want to talk

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Speaker 1: to you about which is probably the thing i most

401
00:18:34,384 --> 00:18:36,764
Speaker 1: want to talk about before i start crying is uh

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Speaker 1: is I also respect you, and this could be the

403
00:18:41,114 --> 00:18:47,154
Speaker 1: collective you, because the craft, the fact that clearly there

404
00:18:47,234 --> 00:18:52,884
Speaker 1: is a system or something works because it's not like,

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Speaker 1: I don't feel like, the work hasn't slowed down. It

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Speaker 1: feels like the pace has picked up, and I don't

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Speaker 1: know if that's my perception of it. But also, every

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Speaker 1: time I think, oh, he's done with that, there's like

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Speaker 1: another piece will come out. And I'm like, this, if

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Speaker 1: I could ask anything that, what is the process like

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Speaker 1: at this point? And how is it different now from like,

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Speaker 1: because Pigeon.

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Speaker 2: Pigeon's 25 years ago.

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Speaker 1: And that was the first book, right?

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Speaker 2: That was the first book.

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Speaker 1: And so I would imagine that I would just love

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00:19:20,324 --> 00:19:23,724
Speaker 1: to know, has the process changed since Pigeon? Sure. And

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00:19:23,764 --> 00:19:25,924
Speaker 1: then what is a work day like? Like today we're

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Speaker 1: writing books.

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Speaker 2: Well, so that's a lot.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of questions. Well, we got an hour.

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Speaker 1: So that's one. I like to ask one question and

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Speaker 1: then just sit back.

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00:19:32,934 --> 00:19:34,894
Speaker 2: That's good. Well, let's start with sort of what an

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00:19:35,194 --> 00:19:37,874
Speaker 2: ideal day is. Obviously, the days change. I'm on the

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Speaker 2: road about a week, a month. But I separate my

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00:19:41,214 --> 00:19:47,504
Speaker 2: time from creative and reactive. And reactive is addictive. You're

428
00:19:47,544 --> 00:19:49,604
Speaker 2: in a meeting, you're on a Zoom. Yes, no, I

429
00:19:49,664 --> 00:19:51,344
Speaker 2: think it should be that way, blah, blah, blah. And

430
00:19:51,364 --> 00:19:53,374
Speaker 2: then you hang up the phone or whatever and you

431
00:19:53,414 --> 00:19:56,334
Speaker 2: feel like you've accomplished something. You really haven't. But it's

432
00:19:56,474 --> 00:20:00,914
Speaker 2: very addictive. And so I realized that I was getting high.

433
00:20:01,424 --> 00:20:06,114
Speaker 2: off of being reactive. And so I needed to be creative.

434
00:20:06,784 --> 00:20:10,754
Speaker 2: And so for many years, I just didn't pick up

435
00:20:10,774 --> 00:20:13,974
Speaker 2: the phone three days a week. And I was only

436
00:20:14,074 --> 00:20:16,934
Speaker 2: creative those days. And by creative, I mean.

437
00:20:16,954 --> 00:20:17,914
Speaker 1: Were they three days in a row?

438
00:20:18,034 --> 00:20:20,194
Speaker 2: No, no, alternate days. But, you know, because you have

439
00:20:20,214 --> 00:20:21,214
Speaker 2: to keep the empire running.

440
00:20:21,234 --> 00:20:22,594
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But.

441
00:20:23,454 --> 00:20:26,294
Speaker 2: And what I mean by creative is like bored and

442
00:20:26,374 --> 00:20:33,644
Speaker 2: walking and fragile and questioning and wondering. And so now,

443
00:20:34,164 --> 00:20:37,624
Speaker 2: because the empire is a little bit bigger, I'm not

444
00:20:37,664 --> 00:20:38,964
Speaker 2: reactive until after lunch.

445
00:20:41,334 --> 00:20:41,964
Speaker 1: That's great.

446
00:20:42,254 --> 00:20:43,094
Speaker 2: So I wake up.

447
00:20:43,054 --> 00:20:43,674
Speaker 1: In the morning.

448
00:20:44,294 --> 00:20:46,114
Speaker 2: And I do whatever it is. And maybe I go

449
00:20:46,154 --> 00:20:48,674
Speaker 2: for a swim. Maybe I sit and I draw. Maybe

450
00:20:48,734 --> 00:20:53,154
Speaker 2: I'm in production. But ultimately, a book is a single

451
00:20:53,234 --> 00:20:57,904
Speaker 2: question that you do not know the answer to. And

452
00:20:58,284 --> 00:21:03,044
Speaker 2: so I don't know the answer to a lot. And

453
00:21:03,084 --> 00:21:05,763
Speaker 2: it's really hard. Simple and easy are the opposite. So

454
00:21:05,824 --> 00:21:09,344
Speaker 2: it's really hard getting simple to ask myself these questions.

455
00:21:09,404 --> 00:21:13,544
Speaker 2: And these questions are, why am I like this? So

456
00:21:13,704 --> 00:21:17,594
Speaker 2: elephant and piggy is not about friendship. It's about repairing

457
00:21:17,634 --> 00:21:20,054
Speaker 2: friendship because the essence of friendship.

458
00:21:19,714 --> 00:21:20,294
Speaker 1: Is they break.

459
00:21:21,954 --> 00:21:25,254
Speaker 2: So every story is about that because 20 years ago,

460
00:21:25,674 --> 00:21:28,434
Speaker 2: I didn't know how to be a friend. I could

461
00:21:28,494 --> 00:21:31,664
Speaker 2: not figure it out. And we have a new set

462
00:21:31,704 --> 00:21:33,964
Speaker 2: of early readers that are just about to come out

463
00:21:34,984 --> 00:21:37,984
Speaker 2: that are set in the elephant piggy world about snake

464
00:21:38,024 --> 00:21:40,124
Speaker 2: and bat and snake and bat are in the elephant

465
00:21:40,144 --> 00:21:42,594
Speaker 2: and piggy books. And they're going to get their own series.

466
00:21:42,714 --> 00:21:46,214
Speaker 2: And they are about what does support look like? And

467
00:21:46,334 --> 00:21:49,114
Speaker 2: so I have these philosophical questions I don't know the

468
00:21:49,214 --> 00:21:52,514
Speaker 2: answers to that allow me to grab on. What I've

469
00:21:52,554 --> 00:21:54,834
Speaker 2: discovered with Snake and Bat, now having made a lot

470
00:21:54,854 --> 00:21:58,554
Speaker 2: of them, is they need props. They need physical props.

471
00:21:58,734 --> 00:22:01,394
Speaker 2: Because the props are what is getting in the way

472
00:22:01,434 --> 00:22:02,454
Speaker 2: of them supporting each other.

473
00:22:02,774 --> 00:22:04,274
Speaker 1: Oh, wow. Right? Yeah.

474
00:22:04,854 --> 00:22:08,784
Speaker 2: And so the other side is you're writing a letter

475
00:22:08,824 --> 00:22:13,004
Speaker 2: to yourself. That you want somebody else to buy. And

476
00:22:13,164 --> 00:22:17,334
Speaker 2: if that letter is simple enough, it may well be

477
00:22:17,394 --> 00:22:21,034
Speaker 2: that other people are writing that letter right now too.

478
00:22:21,334 --> 00:22:23,314
Speaker 1: So when they pick up the book, they recognize the

479
00:22:23,354 --> 00:22:24,694
Speaker 1: letter that they... Yeah.

480
00:22:24,754 --> 00:22:29,784
Speaker 2: So for instance, just on a shallow level, I love

481
00:22:29,864 --> 00:22:32,384
Speaker 2: having done things and don't love doing.

482
00:22:32,914 --> 00:22:34,134
Speaker 1: Yes, okay, yeah, got it.

483
00:22:34,254 --> 00:22:36,714
Speaker 2: That is me, and I don't understand it. And Cher

484
00:22:36,804 --> 00:22:39,444
Speaker 2: is lovely. Cher is like, hey, let's go to the symphony.

485
00:22:39,724 --> 00:22:41,724
Speaker 2: Why should we go to the symphony? Because you love

486
00:22:41,764 --> 00:22:44,023
Speaker 2: the symphony. Oh, I do love the symphony, but why

487
00:22:44,044 --> 00:22:47,444
Speaker 2: should I go tonight? Because your favorite piece is being performed.

488
00:22:47,704 --> 00:22:48,834
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, I don't really.

489
00:22:48,654 --> 00:22:51,414
Speaker 2: Know that I want to go do that. And Cher's like,

490
00:22:51,734 --> 00:22:54,414
Speaker 2: let us go to the symphony. And so I go,

491
00:22:54,594 --> 00:22:58,263
Speaker 2: and I put on my... pants yes i put on

492
00:22:58,304 --> 00:23:00,744
Speaker 2: my hard pants and i go to the symphony and

493
00:23:00,764 --> 00:23:02,584
Speaker 2: i'm like we should be doing this all the time

494
00:23:03,024 --> 00:23:03,884
Speaker 2: so that.

495
00:23:03,704 --> 00:23:06,464
Speaker 1: Book what again she's like what a great idea.

496
00:23:06,004 --> 00:23:11,374
Speaker 2: Exactly exactly yeah and so that book becomes the pigeon

497
00:23:11,394 --> 00:23:15,194
Speaker 2: needs a bath i'm not writing a bath book i'm

498
00:23:15,234 --> 00:23:18,294
Speaker 2: writing a why don't i want to do the thing

499
00:23:18,374 --> 00:23:19,414
Speaker 2: i love book.

500
00:23:20,694 --> 00:23:23,114
Speaker 1: I mean i love the fact that because there is

501
00:23:23,144 --> 00:23:25,804
Speaker 1: a question of like I think people, I don't tell

502
00:23:25,824 --> 00:23:27,624
Speaker 1: you that people condescend to children's books.

503
00:23:28,424 --> 00:23:29,334
Speaker 2: Hopefully they do.

504
00:23:30,074 --> 00:23:30,614
Speaker 1: Hopefully they do.

505
00:23:30,654 --> 00:23:33,054
Speaker 2: Because their power comes from that, right?

506
00:23:33,074 --> 00:23:35,494
Speaker 1: Because you expect little and get a lot. The Soviet Union.

507
00:23:35,394 --> 00:23:43,644
Speaker 2: Made the most incredible animated films about ultimately politics and psychology,

508
00:23:43,924 --> 00:23:46,224
Speaker 2: and they were children's animated films. There were characters who

509
00:23:46,244 --> 00:23:49,464
Speaker 2: were bureaucrats that were literal bureaus and their mouth open

510
00:23:49,504 --> 00:23:53,314
Speaker 2: and closed. And nobody took kids' film seriously. And they

511
00:23:53,334 --> 00:23:56,894
Speaker 2: were able to express so much so powerfully. So if

512
00:23:56,954 --> 00:23:59,494
Speaker 2: somebody says, I could do that in five minutes, victory.

513
00:23:59,634 --> 00:24:03,194
Speaker 1: Great. Victory. Right?

514
00:24:03,474 --> 00:24:05,394
Speaker 2: Either that or you must really love being a dentist

515
00:24:05,434 --> 00:24:08,854
Speaker 2: or whatever it is, right? But no, hopefully they don't

516
00:24:09,034 --> 00:24:09,874
Speaker 2: see what it is.

517
00:24:10,274 --> 00:24:12,504
Speaker 1: They don't read the pitch and he's about to go... Oh,

518
00:24:12,524 --> 00:24:15,494
Speaker 1: so you want to go to the symphony, I guess. Yes, right, exactly. Oh,

519
00:24:15,534 --> 00:24:17,364
Speaker 1: it's about the symphony. What's funny, because I have a,

520
00:24:17,914 --> 00:24:20,614
Speaker 1: just this happened last night. It's just a thing about,

521
00:24:20,754 --> 00:24:22,914
Speaker 1: you know, partners in marriage and your partner getting you

522
00:24:22,934 --> 00:24:24,934
Speaker 1: to do something. So we went to one of my

523
00:24:24,994 --> 00:24:28,414
Speaker 1: best friend's 50th birthday party. And me and Melissa have

524
00:24:28,434 --> 00:24:30,874
Speaker 1: known him. We met him on the exact same day.

525
00:24:31,494 --> 00:24:33,314
Speaker 1: But he became my best friend. He's just a good

526
00:24:33,354 --> 00:24:35,474
Speaker 1: friend of hers. But we've known him for, we all

527
00:24:35,494 --> 00:24:37,814
Speaker 1: had kids. His kid's about to go to senior in

528
00:24:37,834 --> 00:24:40,154
Speaker 1: high school. He's known all our kids, whatever we've all.

529
00:24:40,424 --> 00:24:42,784
Speaker 1: We've all lived in different locations, but now we're sort

530
00:24:42,804 --> 00:24:44,744
Speaker 1: of near each other again. And at some point towards

531
00:24:44,764 --> 00:24:46,224
Speaker 1: the end of dinner, it's a big dinner. And I

532
00:24:46,244 --> 00:24:47,944
Speaker 1: don't even know everybody there. I've met them before, but

533
00:24:47,964 --> 00:24:50,264
Speaker 1: it's a pretty big dinner. It's an Ethiopian restaurant. So

534
00:24:50,784 --> 00:24:52,854
Speaker 1: most of my thoughts were like, make sure the kids

535
00:24:53,044 --> 00:24:53,814
Speaker 1: eat food.

536
00:24:53,834 --> 00:24:54,334
Speaker 4: Right.

537
00:24:54,354 --> 00:24:56,914
Speaker 1: Because they aren't Ethiopian food eaters. But there's these two

538
00:24:56,934 --> 00:24:58,574
Speaker 1: Ethiopian women who are there who are great with them.

539
00:24:58,614 --> 00:24:59,714
Speaker 1: They ate a lot of it. And so I was

540
00:24:59,734 --> 00:25:01,854
Speaker 1: really just like, yay, this evening worked. The kids ate

541
00:25:01,934 --> 00:25:04,194
Speaker 1: food in an Ethiopian restaurant. And they're not going to

542
00:25:04,214 --> 00:25:06,034
Speaker 1: be hungry when we get home. And we had a

543
00:25:06,054 --> 00:25:08,424
Speaker 1: good time. And Melissa goes, you need to make a speech.

544
00:25:09,554 --> 00:25:11,734
Speaker 1: And it's funny, I'm a stand-up comedian, so that shouldn't be.

545
00:25:11,994 --> 00:25:12,954
Speaker 2: I was like, what?

546
00:25:13,694 --> 00:25:15,694
Speaker 1: It's your friend's 50th birthday party. He's one of your

547
00:25:15,714 --> 00:25:18,174
Speaker 1: best friends. You need to make a speech. I was like,

548
00:25:18,214 --> 00:25:21,014
Speaker 1: but nobody else is making a speech. Also, it's a restaurant.

549
00:25:21,054 --> 00:25:24,294
Speaker 1: It's not like a private room. There's other tables. But

550
00:25:24,374 --> 00:25:27,514
Speaker 1: other people are going to see me? I was also like,

551
00:25:27,584 --> 00:25:30,144
Speaker 1: it's weird if they see Kamau Bell making a speech.

552
00:25:30,164 --> 00:25:35,044
Speaker 1: And she's like, he's your friend. And so I went, okay.

553
00:25:35,164 --> 00:25:36,704
Speaker 1: And I got up and went outside and just thought

554
00:25:36,724 --> 00:25:38,744
Speaker 1: for a couple minutes like, what would I say if

555
00:25:38,804 --> 00:25:41,444
Speaker 1: I made a speech? Oh, that'd be pretty good. I went,

556
00:25:41,884 --> 00:25:45,504
Speaker 1: Jeremy Townsend. Right, right, right. So I like made the

557
00:25:45,544 --> 00:25:49,224
Speaker 1: speech and felt good about it and referenced the fact

558
00:25:49,244 --> 00:25:51,004
Speaker 1: that Melissa told me to make the speech. And it's

559
00:25:51,024 --> 00:25:53,354
Speaker 1: just that thing about like your partner seeing you in

560
00:25:53,394 --> 00:25:55,774
Speaker 1: ways that you can't see yourself and pushing you to

561
00:25:55,874 --> 00:25:57,854
Speaker 1: go to the freaking symphony. That's right.

562
00:25:57,994 --> 00:26:00,754
Speaker 2: That's right. Yeah. But it is also about, we all

563
00:26:00,834 --> 00:26:04,754
Speaker 2: have things that stop us and we don't understand them.

564
00:26:05,154 --> 00:26:05,794
Speaker 2: That's enough.

565
00:26:06,174 --> 00:26:06,974
Speaker 1: Right? Yeah.

566
00:26:07,214 --> 00:26:09,783
Speaker 2: So, we all have so many of those things. You're

567
00:26:09,804 --> 00:26:11,264
Speaker 2: not going to run out of ideas.

568
00:26:11,344 --> 00:26:11,624
Speaker 1: Yeah.

569
00:26:11,864 --> 00:26:13,484
Speaker 2: I would, sometimes people would say like, I have an

570
00:26:13,524 --> 00:26:14,924
Speaker 2: idea for a kid's book. I give it to you.

571
00:26:15,004 --> 00:26:18,724
Speaker 2: Don't give me, I'm fine. Give me three more months

572
00:26:18,964 --> 00:26:23,604
Speaker 2: of life. Ah, make the year 20 months long.

573
00:26:23,644 --> 00:26:24,364
Speaker 1: Yeah.

574
00:26:24,404 --> 00:26:25,244
Speaker 2: That would be the gift.

575
00:26:25,784 --> 00:26:27,804
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, that was cause that was my next question

576
00:26:27,844 --> 00:26:29,844
Speaker 1: is like, cause as a standup and I feel like

577
00:26:29,884 --> 00:26:30,664
Speaker 1: these are similar.

578
00:26:30,684 --> 00:26:34,374
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, look, I, I started in sketch comedy and,

579
00:26:34,644 --> 00:26:37,324
Speaker 2: My drawings are sketchy and my books are sketches.

580
00:26:37,584 --> 00:26:38,324
Speaker 1: Right?

581
00:26:38,344 --> 00:26:39,984
Speaker 2: So it's all, it's a form.

582
00:26:40,144 --> 00:26:42,404
Speaker 1: It's a form. So that you're sort of always, your

583
00:26:42,424 --> 00:26:45,384
Speaker 1: brain is always in the background panning for stuff.

584
00:26:45,544 --> 00:26:50,924
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, again, I think I'm always just

585
00:26:52,044 --> 00:26:57,734
Speaker 2: curious sometimes about where I am and curious about where

586
00:26:57,814 --> 00:27:01,374
Speaker 2: kids are. So for instance, we did a, there's a

587
00:27:01,414 --> 00:27:05,273
Speaker 2: pigeon book, it's the pigeon's birthday. And it turns out

588
00:27:05,334 --> 00:27:10,654
Speaker 2: it's other people's birthdays. And this is not about birthdays. Well,

589
00:27:10,834 --> 00:27:13,414
Speaker 2: it is in the sense that the birthday is the

590
00:27:13,594 --> 00:27:16,964
Speaker 2: only day that you are celebrated for no accomplishment.

591
00:27:18,484 --> 00:27:18,724
Speaker 1: Right?

592
00:27:18,824 --> 00:27:21,244
Speaker 2: For just being you. And I will tell you, in

593
00:27:21,284 --> 00:27:28,524
Speaker 2: my childhood, I was not seen. And Peanuts allowed me,

594
00:27:28,834 --> 00:27:32,714
Speaker 2: Charlie Brown doing this, allowed me to not be seen,

595
00:27:32,734 --> 00:27:34,754
Speaker 2: because that would be too much to ask for, but

596
00:27:34,914 --> 00:27:36,474
Speaker 2: to know that I was seeable.

597
00:27:36,874 --> 00:27:37,404
Speaker 1: Seeable.

598
00:27:37,844 --> 00:27:39,624
Speaker 2: And so in every one of my books, one of

599
00:27:39,664 --> 00:27:44,304
Speaker 2: my characters, so that they know that they're seeable. We're

600
00:27:44,444 --> 00:27:47,304
Speaker 2: in this together, whatever it is. And it may be

601
00:27:47,364 --> 00:27:49,364
Speaker 2: worse for my characters than it is for you out

602
00:27:49,384 --> 00:27:51,854
Speaker 2: there right now. It may be better for my characters.

603
00:27:52,504 --> 00:27:55,974
Speaker 2: But that is enough. So to have the question like,

604
00:27:56,254 --> 00:27:59,074
Speaker 2: am I going to take your flowers?

605
00:27:59,754 --> 00:28:00,294
Speaker 1: Well, that's great.

606
00:28:00,664 --> 00:28:03,844
Speaker 2: That's great. I appreciate that. It's hard for me to take,

607
00:28:04,324 --> 00:28:07,984
Speaker 2: but you're not saying you love me for the meanness

608
00:28:08,044 --> 00:28:09,704
Speaker 2: of me. You're saying you love me for these things

609
00:28:09,744 --> 00:28:11,364
Speaker 2: that I've done again. Fine.

610
00:28:11,424 --> 00:28:11,644
Speaker 1: Yeah.

611
00:28:12,184 --> 00:28:16,944
Speaker 2: But there has to be a moment of seeability. There

612
00:28:16,984 --> 00:28:18,794
Speaker 2: has to be a moment where you feel that that

613
00:28:19,034 --> 00:28:19,834
Speaker 2: is valuable.

614
00:28:20,614 --> 00:28:21,354
Speaker 1: Right. Yeah.

615
00:28:21,594 --> 00:28:23,254
Speaker 2: And so that's one idea.

616
00:28:23,274 --> 00:28:23,734
Speaker 1: Yeah.

617
00:28:24,634 --> 00:28:27,114
Speaker 2: And why up until, I mean, I made that book

618
00:28:27,154 --> 00:28:30,114
Speaker 2: how many years ago, two years ago, Why up until

619
00:28:30,134 --> 00:28:33,234
Speaker 2: my mid-50s was I not even able to approach the

620
00:28:33,314 --> 00:28:35,634
Speaker 2: idea that seeing myself was enough?

621
00:28:37,034 --> 00:28:40,824
Speaker 1: And that, so the pigeon's bird day is about that.

622
00:28:41,044 --> 00:28:44,624
Speaker 2: The pigeon's bird day is, why can't I see myself?

623
00:28:45,804 --> 00:28:46,004
Speaker 1: Right?

624
00:28:46,024 --> 00:28:49,744
Speaker 2: And the pigeon is furious because it's also the duckling's

625
00:28:49,784 --> 00:28:52,484
Speaker 2: bird day and all these other birds, because all birds

626
00:28:52,504 --> 00:28:55,164
Speaker 2: get born at the same time. And now he's got

627
00:28:55,184 --> 00:28:57,164
Speaker 2: to figure it out. Like, I thought this was my

628
00:28:57,204 --> 00:28:58,124
Speaker 2: special day.

629
00:28:58,144 --> 00:28:58,284
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

630
00:28:58,804 --> 00:29:01,964
Speaker 2: But we're all unique, right? We're all special. That's the

631
00:29:01,984 --> 00:29:04,834
Speaker 2: thing of like what Margaret Mead said, remember, you are

632
00:29:04,944 --> 00:29:10,254
Speaker 2: unique just like everybody else. But that's the moment. So

633
00:29:10,294 --> 00:29:12,974
Speaker 2: it's these sort of things that then lead me, because

634
00:29:12,994 --> 00:29:15,934
Speaker 2: the being, the silly and the slapstick and the writing,

635
00:29:16,434 --> 00:29:17,534
Speaker 2: that's craft.

636
00:29:17,974 --> 00:29:19,194
Speaker 1: Yeah.

637
00:29:19,474 --> 00:29:25,664
Speaker 2: The knowing what you are trying to think about is yourself,

638
00:29:25,784 --> 00:29:28,114
Speaker 2: and then freeing it up that somebody else reads it

639
00:29:28,414 --> 00:29:32,694
Speaker 2: and sees something completely different, and they're right. They're never wrong.

640
00:29:51,904 --> 00:29:53,904
Speaker 1: So when you say, I'm gonna get back to craft again.

641
00:29:54,484 --> 00:29:57,434
Speaker 1: When you say like, I don't, I'm not reactive until noon.

642
00:29:58,874 --> 00:30:01,874
Speaker 1: What is that from whenever you wake up and you're

643
00:30:01,894 --> 00:30:04,334
Speaker 1: sitting down? What is that? Is there like, is it like,

644
00:30:04,854 --> 00:30:06,974
Speaker 1: I'm just wondering, like, for example, I go through different

645
00:30:07,014 --> 00:30:09,324
Speaker 1: stages of creativity. Like right now I used to like

646
00:30:09,344 --> 00:30:11,844
Speaker 1: carry on like lined notebooks that I kept in my

647
00:30:11,884 --> 00:30:13,624
Speaker 1: back pocket, you know, but then I was doing it

648
00:30:13,644 --> 00:30:15,584
Speaker 1: on my phone for a while. And now I buy

649
00:30:15,624 --> 00:30:17,684
Speaker 1: these big, like drawing paper.

650
00:30:17,704 --> 00:30:18,144
Speaker 2: Yeah, right.

651
00:30:18,364 --> 00:30:19,084
Speaker 1: And Sharpies.

652
00:30:19,464 --> 00:30:19,704
Speaker 2: Great.

653
00:30:20,004 --> 00:30:22,334
Speaker 1: And so that's how I take notes for standup is like,

654
00:30:22,614 --> 00:30:25,174
Speaker 1: I sit down like an hour before the show and

655
00:30:25,194 --> 00:30:26,634
Speaker 1: sort of go, okay, what did I do last time?

656
00:30:26,674 --> 00:30:28,274
Speaker 1: What do I want to do tonight? And my kids

657
00:30:28,314 --> 00:30:29,914
Speaker 1: laugh because I have Sharpies all over the house now.

658
00:30:30,274 --> 00:30:32,174
Speaker 1: But I like Sharpies because I can write big and

659
00:30:32,434 --> 00:30:33,994
Speaker 1: I can see it easily on stage. And you can

660
00:30:34,034 --> 00:30:36,304
Speaker 1: drop it on the floor. Right. Absolutely. So I like

661
00:30:36,324 --> 00:30:38,844
Speaker 1: that it's like, and also the paper doesn't bleed through.

662
00:30:38,864 --> 00:30:41,664
Speaker 1: So I can really like, and so it's, What is

663
00:30:41,684 --> 00:30:44,164
Speaker 1: your process like if we are sitting down to do work?

664
00:30:44,364 --> 00:30:44,674
Speaker 1: What is it?

665
00:30:44,684 --> 00:30:46,804
Speaker 2: Well, I have, I always have a notebook, which I

666
00:30:46,824 --> 00:30:50,064
Speaker 2: call an idea garden. And my job is to put

667
00:30:50,224 --> 00:30:53,504
Speaker 2: as much feces and manure in the idea garden.

668
00:30:53,604 --> 00:30:53,864
Speaker 1: Yeah.

669
00:30:54,124 --> 00:30:54,424
Speaker 2: Right.

670
00:30:54,564 --> 00:30:54,744
Speaker 3: Yeah.

671
00:30:54,924 --> 00:30:56,484
Speaker 2: And to let it go. So what I do is

672
00:30:56,724 --> 00:30:59,344
Speaker 2: I audition my characters. I take them out for coffee.

673
00:30:59,444 --> 00:31:02,264
Speaker 2: I bring them places. I start to see how they're

674
00:31:02,304 --> 00:31:04,264
Speaker 2: going to react. So I just want to get to

675
00:31:04,324 --> 00:31:06,124
Speaker 2: know them well enough so that when I have an

676
00:31:06,224 --> 00:31:09,434
Speaker 2: idea that I know who's going to fulfill that question.

677
00:31:09,494 --> 00:31:12,854
Speaker 1: So these characters show up before a book maybe shows up. Sure, sure.

678
00:31:12,954 --> 00:31:14,714
Speaker 1: One day a snake shows up. Absolutely. And you're just

679
00:31:14,734 --> 00:31:16,694
Speaker 1: hanging out with snake. Yeah, absolutely.

680
00:31:16,714 --> 00:31:18,904
Speaker 2: Certainly Elephant and Piggy was that. Elephant was there for

681
00:31:18,944 --> 00:31:22,084
Speaker 2: a long time on the drawing table, in the dining

682
00:31:22,104 --> 00:31:25,324
Speaker 2: room table while we were doing dinner drawings, in my notebooks.

683
00:31:25,644 --> 00:31:27,064
Speaker 2: Piggy I held auditions for.

684
00:31:27,084 --> 00:31:29,284
Speaker 1: I love that.

685
00:31:29,524 --> 00:31:32,484
Speaker 2: I know that I needed, it was a comedy duo, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

686
00:31:32,504 --> 00:31:35,434
Speaker 2: And I love comedy duos. I feel like I've, Nichols

687
00:31:35,474 --> 00:31:38,454
Speaker 2: and Mays, Mother's Brother, my first comedy duo in college.

688
00:31:38,514 --> 00:31:41,714
Speaker 2: I was in a group called The Normals. So I

689
00:31:41,774 --> 00:31:44,654
Speaker 2: love that. So I had to audition, figure out Piggy

690
00:31:45,174 --> 00:31:46,274
Speaker 2: once I knew who Gerald was.

691
00:31:46,494 --> 00:31:49,284
Speaker 1: Okay. I love that. It's like we know we got

692
00:31:49,304 --> 00:31:50,964
Speaker 1: this guy, but who's going to match with this guy?

693
00:31:51,064 --> 00:31:51,424
Speaker 2: That's right.

694
00:31:51,524 --> 00:31:52,104
Speaker 1: And it's real.

695
00:31:52,184 --> 00:31:55,384
Speaker 2: They're actual characters. You have to take them seriously.

696
00:31:55,884 --> 00:31:59,144
Speaker 1: And so you have your idea garden and you're auditioning

697
00:31:59,164 --> 00:32:01,464
Speaker 1: characters and waiting for the idea to show up. And

698
00:32:01,504 --> 00:32:03,674
Speaker 1: then like, Do you have a space in your house

699
00:32:03,694 --> 00:32:05,794
Speaker 1: you go? I'm really trying to get super nerdy about this.

700
00:32:05,814 --> 00:32:12,014
Speaker 2: Okay, so I do. I have a studio. I have

701
00:32:12,594 --> 00:32:16,664
Speaker 2: a space that reminds me to be happy. Like, I mean,

702
00:32:16,684 --> 00:32:21,434
Speaker 2: the colors are certain. I've got weird drawers. It's very designy.

703
00:32:21,874 --> 00:32:24,694
Speaker 2: We just left Northampton. So you would know what my

704
00:32:24,734 --> 00:32:27,814
Speaker 2: space was like in Northampton if you saw the dinner doodles.

705
00:32:27,854 --> 00:32:31,474
Speaker 1: That was my workspace. And also during the pandemic.

706
00:32:31,814 --> 00:32:37,134
Speaker 2: Yeah, the lunch doodles. I apologize. So now we live

707
00:32:37,174 --> 00:32:40,054
Speaker 2: in New York and we built something analogous. I made

708
00:32:40,104 --> 00:32:43,584
Speaker 2: it a standing studio. So I'm always standing. I'm always moving.

709
00:32:43,604 --> 00:32:51,624
Speaker 2: I'm always walking around. And very sketchy and loose. And

710
00:32:51,744 --> 00:32:54,704
Speaker 2: once it comes time to develop it a little bit more,

711
00:32:55,144 --> 00:32:58,704
Speaker 2: then I sort of work tighter. Also with a lot

712
00:32:58,724 --> 00:33:03,214
Speaker 2: of books, I have these sheets of every step. So

713
00:33:03,434 --> 00:33:08,274
Speaker 2: it's a giant chart, like the page turn, the color,

714
00:33:08,394 --> 00:33:12,334
Speaker 2: the background, the blue, which is the initial drawing. I

715
00:33:12,394 --> 00:33:15,164
Speaker 2: initially do my tightest drawings in blue because that's what

716
00:33:15,204 --> 00:33:17,834
Speaker 2: you do as an animator. Then you make your mistakes.

717
00:33:17,874 --> 00:33:19,854
Speaker 2: You fix that in red. Then you go to inks.

718
00:33:20,314 --> 00:33:22,974
Speaker 2: All of this. Because it is impossible to make a book.

719
00:33:24,474 --> 00:33:28,494
Speaker 2: It is impossible. But it is possible to make a

720
00:33:28,534 --> 00:33:32,014
Speaker 2: single blue drawing of a snake. And then it is

721
00:33:32,094 --> 00:33:33,994
Speaker 2: possible to fill in a little box and say, I

722
00:33:34,034 --> 00:33:36,424
Speaker 2: made a single drawing of a snake. It's pretty great.

723
00:33:36,924 --> 00:33:41,164
Speaker 2: And so that is how I process it. When I'm

724
00:33:41,204 --> 00:33:45,864
Speaker 2: in production, I always draw the drawings of the book

725
00:33:46,484 --> 00:33:48,964
Speaker 2: Out of order, I start with the middle drawings, the

726
00:33:49,334 --> 00:33:52,454
Speaker 2: after act, act three, end of act two of a book.

727
00:33:52,794 --> 00:33:55,954
Speaker 2: Because at that point, two-thirds into a book, if you

728
00:33:56,014 --> 00:33:59,954
Speaker 2: are noticing the drawings, the book does not work. And

729
00:33:59,994 --> 00:34:02,754
Speaker 2: the more I draw, the better my drawings get. So

730
00:34:02,794 --> 00:34:04,754
Speaker 2: the last drawing I make of a book will be

731
00:34:04,794 --> 00:34:05,234
Speaker 2: the best.

732
00:34:05,494 --> 00:34:05,874
Speaker 1: Okay.

733
00:34:05,894 --> 00:34:06,634
Speaker 2: So that's the cover.

734
00:34:07,434 --> 00:34:07,924
Speaker 1: Oh, great.

735
00:34:08,123 --> 00:34:12,203
Speaker 2: Because you will, at that stage, be looking at that

736
00:34:12,704 --> 00:34:15,703
Speaker 2: cover seriously as a drawing. And then as you get

737
00:34:15,764 --> 00:34:17,344
Speaker 2: into it, you're going to look at it as a drawing.

738
00:34:18,064 --> 00:34:19,223
Speaker 2: In the same way that when you start to see

739
00:34:19,263 --> 00:34:21,263
Speaker 2: a film, you look at a film as film. Yeah.

740
00:34:21,344 --> 00:34:21,564
Speaker 1: Right?

741
00:34:21,683 --> 00:34:24,604
Speaker 2: Oh, the camera is panning. Oh, the lighting is this. Oh,

742
00:34:24,663 --> 00:34:26,724
Speaker 2: this is happening. If you're doing that in the middle

743
00:34:26,743 --> 00:34:28,254
Speaker 2: of the film, it's not a film anymore.

744
00:34:28,294 --> 00:34:28,594
Speaker 1: Yeah.

745
00:34:28,634 --> 00:34:29,154
Speaker 2: Right?

746
00:34:29,334 --> 00:34:32,214
Speaker 1: If you notice the movie soundtrack, then maybe it's not

747
00:34:32,234 --> 00:34:33,073
Speaker 1: a good soundtrack. That's right.

748
00:34:33,094 --> 00:34:34,073
Speaker 2: But in the beginning, you should.

749
00:34:34,174 --> 00:34:34,873
Speaker 1: Yeah.

750
00:34:34,953 --> 00:34:37,254
Speaker 2: And at the end as well. Yeah. Because you're getting up. Yeah.

751
00:34:37,513 --> 00:34:41,194
Speaker 2: So I have certain techniques that I use in my

752
00:34:41,594 --> 00:34:44,644
Speaker 2: production when I'm in actual production of a book. that

753
00:34:44,904 --> 00:34:49,283
Speaker 2: sort of helped me figure out how to work efficiently

754
00:34:49,324 --> 00:34:49,904
Speaker 2: and well.

755
00:34:51,564 --> 00:34:52,924
Speaker 1: Take me to the guy who writes, don't let the

756
00:34:52,944 --> 00:34:53,904
Speaker 1: pigeon drive the bus.

757
00:34:54,444 --> 00:34:55,264
Speaker 2: At that stage?

758
00:34:55,303 --> 00:34:58,544
Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay. Were you two together at that stage? Yes,

759
00:34:58,643 --> 00:34:58,983
Speaker 1: we were.

760
00:34:59,044 --> 00:35:03,893
Speaker 2: We were. Actually, Cher is... Come on, Cameron. This is ridiculous.

761
00:35:04,013 --> 00:35:06,314
Speaker 1: Come sit here. It's totally great. Come say hi. It's

762
00:35:06,334 --> 00:35:08,154
Speaker 1: totally great. I actually was thinking about it later. I

763
00:35:08,154 --> 00:35:09,673
Speaker 1: feel like I should split this in half and bring

764
00:35:09,694 --> 00:35:10,053
Speaker 1: you in.

765
00:35:10,114 --> 00:35:10,673
Speaker 2: Come sit here.

766
00:35:11,413 --> 00:35:15,763
Speaker 1: Yeah. Here we go. Cher... It's the first time we've

767
00:35:15,783 --> 00:35:21,774
Speaker 1: done this, so I love this. It's the perfect chair.

768
00:35:21,794 --> 00:35:23,754
Speaker 2: So I wanted to write the Great American Picture Book,

769
00:35:23,774 --> 00:35:26,214
Speaker 2: so I moved to Oxford, England, so that I could

770
00:35:26,254 --> 00:35:28,294
Speaker 2: be smarter. I just figured it would be in the

771
00:35:28,334 --> 00:35:32,473
Speaker 2: beer somehow. And then I wrote terrible, terrible books, and

772
00:35:32,513 --> 00:35:35,203
Speaker 2: I put out a sketchbook every year for clients and friends,

773
00:35:35,614 --> 00:35:37,243
Speaker 2: and I have for the last 33 years. It's a

774
00:35:37,243 --> 00:35:41,693
Speaker 2: 40-year project, and I made this don't let the pigeon

775
00:35:41,734 --> 00:35:43,893
Speaker 2: drive the bus because his character was saying, don't write

776
00:35:43,913 --> 00:35:46,294
Speaker 2: about this, write about me. And in the beginning, there

777
00:35:46,334 --> 00:35:48,133
Speaker 2: was a little kid whose job was not to let

778
00:35:48,154 --> 00:35:50,514
Speaker 2: the pigeon drive the bus. And the pigeon said, you

779
00:35:50,553 --> 00:35:53,204
Speaker 2: don't need to co-star, I'm the star. Make the audience

780
00:35:53,223 --> 00:35:53,564
Speaker 2: a star.

781
00:35:53,623 --> 00:35:55,084
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. The reader's the star.

782
00:35:55,183 --> 00:35:57,604
Speaker 2: So we went back and I made it that year's sketchbook.

783
00:35:57,763 --> 00:36:00,924
Speaker 2: And the company, the production company where I was making films,

784
00:36:01,364 --> 00:36:05,944
Speaker 2: printed it in a spirit of true contractual obligation. And

785
00:36:05,984 --> 00:36:06,924
Speaker 2: they said it's terrible.

786
00:36:07,564 --> 00:36:07,683
Speaker 1: Oh.

787
00:36:07,864 --> 00:36:10,804
Speaker 2: And then Cher... What were you doing at that time?

788
00:36:11,524 --> 00:36:14,904
Speaker 3: I was working as an assistant in a library on

789
00:36:15,944 --> 00:36:17,304
Speaker 3: the Upper East Side of Manhattan.

790
00:36:18,143 --> 00:36:19,404
Speaker 2: And she took my sketchbook.

791
00:36:20,163 --> 00:36:22,763
Speaker 3: And I read it to a bunch of kindergartners, and

792
00:36:22,824 --> 00:36:24,663
Speaker 3: they lost their minds.

793
00:36:25,143 --> 00:36:29,784
Speaker 1: Talk about great target marketing and test marketing.

794
00:36:30,143 --> 00:36:32,343
Speaker 2: More. I didn't realize it was a picture book. So

795
00:36:32,384 --> 00:36:35,263
Speaker 2: Cher comes back and says, I've read this little thing

796
00:36:35,324 --> 00:36:37,384
Speaker 2: to the kids because I felt like it. They went berserk.

797
00:36:37,404 --> 00:36:39,714
Speaker 2: They were yelling, no, it was punk rock. And I

798
00:36:39,714 --> 00:36:42,053
Speaker 2: was like, that's nice. It's not a picture book. It's

799
00:36:42,074 --> 00:36:42,654
Speaker 2: a sketchbook.

800
00:36:43,234 --> 00:36:44,794
Speaker 3: And it was a tiny little thing.

801
00:36:45,053 --> 00:36:46,453
Speaker 1: And so there were drawings in it, but you just thought,

802
00:36:46,473 --> 00:36:48,123
Speaker 1: this is just a trifle.

803
00:36:48,303 --> 00:36:51,064
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was just a little gift. It was like this. Yeah.

804
00:36:51,123 --> 00:36:53,403
Speaker 1: I'm sure you had that somewhere. Oh, yeah. Okay, okay, yeah.

805
00:36:53,444 --> 00:36:54,524
Speaker 2: And then Cher went back.

806
00:36:55,223 --> 00:36:55,403
Speaker 1: Yep.

807
00:36:56,243 --> 00:36:57,644
Speaker 2: And I read it again.

808
00:36:57,884 --> 00:36:59,964
Speaker 3: And I read it to different kids in different classes.

809
00:37:00,104 --> 00:37:01,343
Speaker 3: And they all lost their minds.

810
00:37:02,033 --> 00:37:02,593
Speaker 1: Wow.

811
00:37:02,634 --> 00:37:04,553
Speaker 2: So then I'm like, ah, you know, I really want

812
00:37:04,574 --> 00:37:07,234
Speaker 2: to do picture books for a variety of reasons.

813
00:37:07,334 --> 00:37:07,513
Speaker 1: Yeah.

814
00:37:08,223 --> 00:37:10,183
Speaker 2: I was going to age out of television. I was

815
00:37:10,243 --> 00:37:10,944
Speaker 2: in my 30s.

816
00:37:11,404 --> 00:37:13,004
Speaker 1: Age out of television? Yeah.

817
00:37:13,344 --> 00:37:15,934
Speaker 2: Any creator of an animated show on Nickelodeon or Cartoon

818
00:37:15,953 --> 00:37:16,993
Speaker 2: Network was 33.

819
00:37:16,993 --> 00:37:18,233
Speaker 1: Oh, wow.

820
00:37:18,294 --> 00:37:21,354
Speaker 2: And I was like, there are no 50-year-old TV creators.

821
00:37:21,413 --> 00:37:25,623
Speaker 2: I got to get out. Yeah. Right? And then Cher,

822
00:37:26,104 --> 00:37:28,323
Speaker 2: while I'm trying to write these terrible books, Cher is

823
00:37:28,344 --> 00:37:30,283
Speaker 2: the one who comes to me and says, this is

824
00:37:30,344 --> 00:37:32,143
Speaker 2: the book. Now we got to go get it made.

825
00:37:32,984 --> 00:37:36,394
Speaker 1: Hmm. That's so great, because I've heard versions of this story,

826
00:37:36,473 --> 00:37:39,453
Speaker 1: but I have not heard this version just directly from you.

827
00:37:39,493 --> 00:37:42,354
Speaker 1: So this is quite a gift. I mean, because I

828
00:37:42,373 --> 00:37:43,723
Speaker 1: think about this too. Me and Melissa have been together

829
00:37:43,743 --> 00:37:48,203
Speaker 1: since 2003, married since 2009. But she met me as

830
00:37:48,223 --> 00:37:50,564
Speaker 1: I was already a stand-up comedian, but I was not

831
00:37:50,683 --> 00:37:55,084
Speaker 1: on a path of any sort of like, you know. Jokingly,

832
00:37:55,123 --> 00:37:56,863
Speaker 1: I'm like, when I met you, I was, she's like,

833
00:37:56,904 --> 00:38:01,513
Speaker 1: you were, you know. I was featuring for headliners occasionally

834
00:38:01,654 --> 00:38:02,973
Speaker 1: in town in San Francisco.

835
00:38:02,993 --> 00:38:03,093
Speaker 2: Right.

836
00:38:03,623 --> 00:38:08,363
Speaker 1: Could not headline. And so she really was there at

837
00:38:08,424 --> 00:38:10,643
Speaker 1: a time when I needed somebody from the outside who

838
00:38:10,683 --> 00:38:14,404
Speaker 1: actually thought I had talent, but also was not totally impressed.

839
00:38:14,424 --> 00:38:15,493
Speaker 2: But thought you weren't using it.

840
00:38:15,533 --> 00:38:17,834
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. But you're not doing it right.

841
00:38:17,854 --> 00:38:20,034
Speaker 2: You have so much talent. You should go get that

842
00:38:20,294 --> 00:38:21,933
Speaker 2: and bring that to the stage.

843
00:38:22,013 --> 00:38:24,893
Speaker 1: Exactly, yeah. And also she's a dancer, so she was

844
00:38:24,933 --> 00:38:26,854
Speaker 1: also like, why do you shuffle like that? Either move

845
00:38:26,893 --> 00:38:29,444
Speaker 1: or don't move. So there were some really specific things.

846
00:38:29,524 --> 00:38:32,183
Speaker 1: So I love the sort of hearing about, I think

847
00:38:32,223 --> 00:38:34,793
Speaker 1: it's important to hear about The person who's like, this

848
00:38:35,053 --> 00:38:38,433
Speaker 1: is the thing. Forget all this other stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

849
00:38:38,493 --> 00:38:40,973
Speaker 1: And I heard that you, then you tried to sell

850
00:38:41,114 --> 00:38:41,774
Speaker 1: it and it didn't.

851
00:38:41,834 --> 00:38:43,804
Speaker 2: No, no. Everybody said the exact same thing.

852
00:38:43,904 --> 00:38:44,094
Speaker 1: Yeah.

853
00:38:44,473 --> 00:38:45,204
Speaker 2: It's unusual.

854
00:38:46,123 --> 00:38:49,584
Speaker 1: I love that. That's such a code word for like.

855
00:38:50,064 --> 00:38:53,383
Speaker 2: But the person who bought it two years later, two

856
00:38:53,444 --> 00:38:56,444
Speaker 2: years of trying to sell this book said it's unusual.

857
00:38:57,723 --> 00:39:00,094
Speaker 2: So it's just a question of whether unusual is pejorative

858
00:39:00,154 --> 00:39:00,343
Speaker 2: or not.

859
00:39:01,033 --> 00:39:02,893
Speaker 1: I mean, I find, I mean, as a person who's been,

860
00:39:03,013 --> 00:39:05,294
Speaker 1: who I think is called unusual. Oh, I mean, there's

861
00:39:05,314 --> 00:39:07,433
Speaker 1: lots of different words for what you call me. Intelligent

862
00:39:07,533 --> 00:39:09,354
Speaker 1: is the way they say I'm unusual. You're really smart.

863
00:39:12,163 --> 00:39:13,504
Speaker 1: You're just a smart comedian.

864
00:39:13,763 --> 00:39:16,243
Speaker 2: So let me tell you, here's the thing that this

865
00:39:16,283 --> 00:39:17,743
Speaker 2: is the ant thing. Do you know, do you know

866
00:39:17,763 --> 00:39:21,144
Speaker 2: how ants culture works? No. All right. So an ant

867
00:39:22,203 --> 00:39:29,973
Speaker 2: finds food and then just, farts, pheromones, and almost all

868
00:39:29,993 --> 00:39:32,534
Speaker 2: the other ants are like, ooh, that's food, and they go,

869
00:39:32,553 --> 00:39:34,854
Speaker 2: and they follow exactly where that ant is, and they

870
00:39:34,873 --> 00:39:36,914
Speaker 2: get the food, and they get a line, and they go,

871
00:39:36,993 --> 00:39:38,953
Speaker 2: and they go, and they go, and they eat the food,

872
00:39:39,033 --> 00:39:41,674
Speaker 2: and it's unsustainable, because the food will run out and

873
00:39:41,703 --> 00:39:45,084
Speaker 2: they die. So what ants have are a series of

874
00:39:45,223 --> 00:39:49,744
Speaker 2: random ants. And the rando ants, they don't follow the smell.

875
00:39:49,944 --> 00:39:50,244
Speaker 1: Okay.

876
00:39:50,404 --> 00:39:51,863
Speaker 2: They just go around. And those are the ones you

877
00:39:51,884 --> 00:39:53,944
Speaker 2: see in your kitchen that you kill. Those are the

878
00:39:53,964 --> 00:39:57,243
Speaker 2: ones that get stepped on. Those are the ones... That

879
00:39:57,364 --> 00:39:58,763
Speaker 2: are just all over the place.

880
00:39:58,783 --> 00:39:59,403
Speaker 1: Why is there an ant there?

881
00:39:59,444 --> 00:40:01,964
Speaker 2: Why is that single ant there? Those are the artists

882
00:40:02,104 --> 00:40:02,724
Speaker 2: in our culture.

883
00:40:03,344 --> 00:40:03,804
Speaker 1: Wow.

884
00:40:04,123 --> 00:40:05,143
Speaker 2: We are the random ants.

885
00:40:05,243 --> 00:40:06,104
Speaker 1: We're the random ants.

886
00:40:06,263 --> 00:40:10,843
Speaker 2: And our job is not to be successful. Yeah. Our

887
00:40:10,904 --> 00:40:13,453
Speaker 2: job is to be random enough to find the new

888
00:40:13,594 --> 00:40:15,754
Speaker 2: thing that has never been found before.

889
00:40:16,033 --> 00:40:16,493
Speaker 4: Yeah.

890
00:40:17,053 --> 00:40:19,153
Speaker 2: And I think that when we talk about the arts,

891
00:40:19,234 --> 00:40:22,114
Speaker 2: we talk about the arts as in, Like that person

892
00:40:22,174 --> 00:40:25,013
Speaker 2: is good. That person's clever. That person's intelligent. That is

893
00:40:25,234 --> 00:40:29,634
Speaker 2: not the purpose of art. Art is unimportant. It is essential. Yes.

894
00:40:29,654 --> 00:40:32,234
Speaker 2: It's a very, very different thing. And it's not essential

895
00:40:32,274 --> 00:40:36,364
Speaker 2: because it's successful. It's essential because we can't exist without it.

896
00:40:36,533 --> 00:40:36,814
Speaker 1: Yeah.

897
00:40:37,453 --> 00:40:41,453
Speaker 2: And for every random ant that finds the most amazing

898
00:40:41,493 --> 00:40:44,344
Speaker 2: sugar cube that saves the colony for a certain amount

899
00:40:44,364 --> 00:40:47,483
Speaker 2: of time, all the other random ants did the other work.

900
00:40:47,723 --> 00:40:49,184
Speaker 1: The random ants. Right.

901
00:40:49,324 --> 00:40:49,544
Speaker 2: Yeah.

902
00:40:50,453 --> 00:40:51,643
Speaker 1: First of all, it's a great name for a punk band.

903
00:40:51,663 --> 00:40:57,244
Speaker 1: You said Punk Rocker. Yeah, because I find the idea

904
00:40:57,283 --> 00:40:59,774
Speaker 1: that at some point in my career, it was like,

905
00:41:00,694 --> 00:41:01,953
Speaker 1: I'm going to go do this thing. It was a

906
00:41:01,993 --> 00:41:04,554
Speaker 1: solo show called The W. Kamau Bell Curve, ending racism

907
00:41:04,574 --> 00:41:06,634
Speaker 1: in about an hour. Because I was going to the

908
00:41:06,723 --> 00:41:10,053
Speaker 1: punchline every Sunday and doing seven minutes of stand-up after

909
00:41:10,053 --> 00:41:12,654
Speaker 1: 15 years has not yielded the results I thought it would.

910
00:41:12,694 --> 00:41:16,274
Speaker 1: Saturday Night Live is not called. Comedy Central called once,

911
00:41:16,314 --> 00:41:17,274
Speaker 1: but they weren't really that excited.

912
00:41:17,294 --> 00:41:18,254
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it was a wrong number.

913
00:41:18,314 --> 00:41:20,723
Speaker 1: Exactly, yeah, yeah. I said my claim to fame was

914
00:41:20,763 --> 00:41:23,364
Speaker 1: I went to the Montreal Comedy Festival with no manager

915
00:41:23,404 --> 00:41:25,384
Speaker 1: and agent and came back with no manager and agent.

916
00:41:25,404 --> 00:41:27,263
Speaker 1: So I managed to go to the comedy festival.

917
00:41:27,283 --> 00:41:29,844
Speaker 2: You probably saved there 20% of your income. Exactly. So

918
00:41:29,884 --> 00:41:30,504
Speaker 2: that's pretty good.

919
00:41:30,524 --> 00:41:35,694
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. I'm unscathed from Hollywood's graces. So at some

920
00:41:35,714 --> 00:41:37,093
Speaker 1: point I was like, I'm just going to go over here.

921
00:41:37,134 --> 00:41:40,403
Speaker 1: And even this podcast is another I sort of think about, again,

922
00:41:40,424 --> 00:41:42,513
Speaker 1: I'm going over here. I'm going to go over here

923
00:41:42,533 --> 00:41:44,413
Speaker 1: and do this thing over here and invite people I

924
00:41:44,433 --> 00:41:45,473
Speaker 1: want to invite and talk to people I want to

925
00:41:45,493 --> 00:41:49,634
Speaker 1: talk to because going headlong at show business is clearly

926
00:41:49,674 --> 00:41:52,324
Speaker 1: not the thing to do. in the way that I've

927
00:41:52,344 --> 00:41:52,883
Speaker 1: been doing it.

928
00:41:52,944 --> 00:41:53,964
Speaker 2: Other people are already doing it.

929
00:41:54,064 --> 00:41:54,683
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

930
00:41:54,703 --> 00:41:55,044
Speaker 2: Right?

931
00:41:55,203 --> 00:41:56,584
Speaker 1: And other people are built for it in a way

932
00:41:56,604 --> 00:41:57,363
Speaker 1: that I'm a random man.

933
00:41:57,384 --> 00:41:59,863
Speaker 2: I often say, like, I have a terrible idea. And

934
00:42:01,163 --> 00:42:03,004
Speaker 2: they're like, well, what is it? I'm like, it's expensive.

935
00:42:03,623 --> 00:42:07,213
Speaker 1: And they do it. Yeah. I've seen some live shows.

936
00:42:07,294 --> 00:42:09,953
Speaker 1: I'm like, how did he get... First of all, how

937
00:42:09,993 --> 00:42:11,713
Speaker 1: did he get somebody to make that tail? The tail

938
00:42:11,754 --> 00:42:16,274
Speaker 1: that goes 75 foot tail on your suit jacket. Somebody

939
00:42:16,314 --> 00:42:17,334
Speaker 1: was annoyed by that order.

940
00:42:17,413 --> 00:42:18,373
Speaker 2: They had to make it.

941
00:42:18,433 --> 00:42:19,214
Speaker 1: We had to do it.

942
00:42:19,254 --> 00:42:20,553
Speaker 2: We had to arrange it.

943
00:42:20,594 --> 00:42:22,334
Speaker 1: Can I do 74 feet? No, I need 75 feet.

944
00:42:22,373 --> 00:42:24,913
Speaker 2: No, it's not funny. 74 is not a funny footage.

945
00:42:25,053 --> 00:42:27,294
Speaker 1: No. Okay. So now that Cher's here, I got to.

946
00:42:27,953 --> 00:42:30,354
Speaker 1: So when did you two meet? Or when did you

947
00:42:30,393 --> 00:42:34,354
Speaker 1: start the process of this? If you know what this means.

948
00:42:34,393 --> 00:42:35,953
Speaker 2: It's a funny thing we always forget. We met at

949
00:42:35,973 --> 00:42:38,823
Speaker 2: a New Year's Eve party. And so it was the

950
00:42:38,904 --> 00:42:40,584
Speaker 2: end of a year in the 90s.

951
00:42:40,654 --> 00:42:44,653
Speaker 1: Okay, but did this start initially or were you friends first?

952
00:42:44,694 --> 00:42:45,274
Speaker 2: Pretty quickly.

953
00:42:45,533 --> 00:42:47,993
Speaker 1: No, no, no. So we're back in the 90s. So

954
00:42:48,013 --> 00:42:50,214
Speaker 1: you meet, and at this point, what are you doing

955
00:42:50,234 --> 00:42:50,754
Speaker 1: for a job, Mo?

956
00:42:50,913 --> 00:42:52,033
Speaker 2: I'm at Sesame Street.

957
00:42:52,094 --> 00:42:54,033
Speaker 1: So you're at Sesame Street, which to me sounds like

958
00:42:54,134 --> 00:42:57,413
Speaker 1: if I met, if I was single and met somebody

959
00:42:57,433 --> 00:42:59,573
Speaker 1: who worked at Sesame Street, I'd be like, oh, you

960
00:42:59,614 --> 00:43:00,854
Speaker 1: got a good job. Like, you know what I mean?

961
00:43:00,893 --> 00:43:05,803
Speaker 1: It sounds like a, Okay, this guy's probably got health insurance. Oh,

962
00:43:05,984 --> 00:43:08,163
Speaker 1: and that show's not going anywhere? Little did we know.

963
00:43:08,223 --> 00:43:14,123
Speaker 1: But yeah, it'll be on PBS till the end of America. So,

964
00:43:15,703 --> 00:43:17,123
Speaker 1: and what were you doing, Cher, at that point?

965
00:43:17,864 --> 00:43:21,824
Speaker 3: I was working as a freelance commercial producer.

966
00:43:22,364 --> 00:43:25,484
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're in the business. I mean, as far

967
00:43:25,504 --> 00:43:27,584
Speaker 1: as like you understand, you're not like a, I think

968
00:43:27,643 --> 00:43:29,803
Speaker 1: it's good that people who are, so you understand that

969
00:43:29,924 --> 00:43:30,604
Speaker 1: there's a, you know.

970
00:43:30,623 --> 00:43:33,553
Speaker 2: Cher produced some of my Sesame Street shorts. I mean,

971
00:43:33,614 --> 00:43:38,533
Speaker 2: there's definitely like, early, early on, there was the sort

972
00:43:38,574 --> 00:43:42,993
Speaker 2: of running the empire versus, you know, she's the head

973
00:43:43,263 --> 00:43:45,203
Speaker 2: and I'm the hand and we both try to be

974
00:43:45,243 --> 00:43:45,564
Speaker 2: the heart.

975
00:43:45,604 --> 00:43:47,564
Speaker 1: That's what I'm talking about. Stop talking, Mo.

976
00:43:47,803 --> 00:43:50,624
Speaker 2: Sorry. There's my problem right there.

977
00:43:50,643 --> 00:43:54,034
Speaker 1: There we go. Is that, And I'm Melissa and I'm

978
00:43:54,134 --> 00:43:55,953
Speaker 1: asking in a sense for Melissa, my wife, the idea

979
00:43:55,973 --> 00:43:58,434
Speaker 1: of like to meet the person who's doing a thing

980
00:43:58,533 --> 00:44:01,113
Speaker 1: and then suddenly the thing shifts and then thing can

981
00:44:01,174 --> 00:44:04,654
Speaker 1: take over. Like, you know, pigeon book comes out and

982
00:44:04,674 --> 00:44:09,734
Speaker 1: suddenly it's like, and now you're like, huh? The guy

983
00:44:09,774 --> 00:44:11,933
Speaker 1: who I was, maybe I'm putting words in your mouth.

984
00:44:11,973 --> 00:44:13,653
Speaker 1: You can take them out. But the guy I met

985
00:44:13,674 --> 00:44:16,234
Speaker 1: who was an accessory is now this. And now this

986
00:44:16,294 --> 00:44:17,393
Speaker 1: is our life. We got to figure out how to

987
00:44:17,413 --> 00:44:18,734
Speaker 1: do this. What is that like? Do you know what

988
00:44:18,754 --> 00:44:18,973
Speaker 1: I'm saying?

989
00:44:19,263 --> 00:44:20,703
Speaker 3: Yeah, I do know what you're saying, but I don't

990
00:44:20,723 --> 00:44:21,864
Speaker 3: know that that's what happened.

991
00:44:21,884 --> 00:44:24,844
Speaker 1: Thank you. Good, good, good. What happened?

992
00:44:28,524 --> 00:44:32,653
Speaker 3: I think that Mo had the ideas and things that

993
00:44:32,683 --> 00:44:36,954
Speaker 3: he's interested in now are not unrelated to the things

994
00:44:36,993 --> 00:44:39,473
Speaker 3: that he was interested in from the beginning.

995
00:44:39,654 --> 00:44:39,914
Speaker 1: Okay.

996
00:44:40,214 --> 00:44:44,594
Speaker 3: So I think it's just about refining ways of talking

997
00:44:44,614 --> 00:44:50,214
Speaker 3: about it and being funny. and being on the side

998
00:44:50,254 --> 00:44:53,694
Speaker 3: of kids. So it's really just him trying to figure

999
00:44:53,794 --> 00:44:59,363
Speaker 3: out different ways to do that the whole time. So

1000
00:44:59,404 --> 00:45:00,944
Speaker 3: it's actually not very different.

1001
00:45:01,584 --> 00:45:03,924
Speaker 1: And so, first of all, you two are literally working together,

1002
00:45:03,944 --> 00:45:04,763
Speaker 1: like I went to the show.

1003
00:45:04,783 --> 00:45:07,013
Speaker 2: Well, we do very well, even though we both work

1004
00:45:07,053 --> 00:45:08,973
Speaker 2: at home, we have our meetings over Zoom.

1005
00:45:11,604 --> 00:45:12,544
Speaker 1: We do. That's great.

1006
00:45:12,584 --> 00:45:14,923
Speaker 2: We do. That's great. And then we turn off the Zoom.

1007
00:45:14,944 --> 00:45:17,423
Speaker 2: We see each other. We live now in New York City.

1008
00:45:17,464 --> 00:45:19,364
Speaker 2: We're relatively close to a big park.

1009
00:45:19,723 --> 00:45:19,923
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1010
00:45:20,123 --> 00:45:21,923
Speaker 2: And we have a rule that once you're in the park,

1011
00:45:21,964 --> 00:45:22,923
Speaker 2: you cannot talk about work.

1012
00:45:23,553 --> 00:45:24,933
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, that's the other thing. You have to

1013
00:45:24,953 --> 00:45:25,493
Speaker 1: have some real clear.

1014
00:45:25,533 --> 00:45:27,014
Speaker 2: So we talk very quickly getting to the park.

1015
00:45:27,094 --> 00:45:28,653
Speaker 1: I mean, if you need to return that phone call,

1016
00:45:28,674 --> 00:45:30,113
Speaker 1: you need to make that decision. You need to be

1017
00:45:30,154 --> 00:45:33,834
Speaker 1: reactive instead of creative on this time. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1018
00:45:33,973 --> 00:45:35,234
Speaker 1: You're like, a tree. It's a tree. We have to

1019
00:45:35,254 --> 00:45:40,234
Speaker 1: stop talking. Exactly. So, I think, do you know Jim Gaffigan?

1020
00:45:40,834 --> 00:45:41,493
Speaker 2: I know of.

1021
00:45:41,734 --> 00:45:44,314
Speaker 1: So, Jim Gaffigan and his wife are very, like, she

1022
00:45:44,354 --> 00:45:47,013
Speaker 1: writes his act with him. Oh, wow. Like, and directs, like,

1023
00:45:47,033 --> 00:45:48,944
Speaker 1: the specials. Okay. I don't know if they still do that,

1024
00:45:48,953 --> 00:45:50,024
Speaker 1: but that was the way, for a long time, it

1025
00:45:50,044 --> 00:45:51,743
Speaker 1: was like, you would see the credits in his act

1026
00:45:52,123 --> 00:45:55,064
Speaker 1: written by Jim and Jeannie Gaffigan, which to me is

1027
00:45:55,123 --> 00:45:57,173
Speaker 1: a stand-up comic, is a male-centered comedian. We all like

1028
00:45:57,223 --> 00:46:00,024
Speaker 1: to act like we, you know. So I'm just a wizard.

1029
00:46:00,044 --> 00:46:01,504
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm kind of like a prophet. I'm

1030
00:46:01,524 --> 00:46:02,804
Speaker 1: like a prophet mixed with a poet.

1031
00:46:03,324 --> 00:46:03,544
Speaker 4: Right.

1032
00:46:03,623 --> 00:46:04,243
Speaker 1: And the idea he was like.

1033
00:46:04,263 --> 00:46:05,423
Speaker 2: Yoko Ono didn't write any songs.

1034
00:46:05,703 --> 00:46:08,584
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, no, no. She had no good ideas. Right, exactly.

1035
00:46:09,024 --> 00:46:11,424
Speaker 1: And so the idea of like, I'm really heartened and

1036
00:46:11,444 --> 00:46:13,344
Speaker 1: it makes me feel good for my relationship to see

1037
00:46:14,384 --> 00:46:18,423
Speaker 1: a couple in the entertainment business. And I know you're that,

1038
00:46:18,703 --> 00:46:21,243
Speaker 1: that like, no, this is, we're doing, we're both doing this.

1039
00:46:21,884 --> 00:46:24,223
Speaker 1: Like where this is not a, And so talk about

1040
00:46:24,263 --> 00:46:26,504
Speaker 1: that share. Because there's also a version of this where

1041
00:46:26,524 --> 00:46:28,454
Speaker 1: you're like, go do that over there. I'm going to still...

1042
00:46:28,223 --> 00:46:31,073
Speaker 1: This library is taking all my time. Was it a

1043
00:46:31,074 --> 00:46:33,513
Speaker 1: decision to make to be like, no, I'm right next

1044
00:46:33,533 --> 00:46:34,573
Speaker 1: to you? Or did it just.

1045
00:46:34,854 --> 00:46:36,973
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, I think everybody's doing the things that

1046
00:46:36,993 --> 00:46:41,194
Speaker 3: they're good at. But it's not like I'm secretly writing

1047
00:46:41,214 --> 00:46:41,614
Speaker 3: the books.

1048
00:46:42,294 --> 00:46:42,614
Speaker 1: Right?

1049
00:46:42,634 --> 00:46:43,234
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1050
00:46:43,354 --> 00:46:45,974
Speaker 3: I'm probably the first reader of most of the books.

1051
00:46:46,174 --> 00:46:46,574
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1052
00:46:46,984 --> 00:46:51,003
Speaker 3: But it's my job to say, I'm bumping on this.

1053
00:46:51,444 --> 00:46:57,224
Speaker 3: Or this drawing... I don't love it. But I don't say,

1054
00:46:57,444 --> 00:47:01,783
Speaker 3: wouldn't it be funny if, and how about this? Because

1055
00:47:01,904 --> 00:47:06,363
Speaker 3: that's not my job. And depending upon what kind of

1056
00:47:06,844 --> 00:47:10,633
Speaker 3: work we're doing, like when you were writing a whole

1057
00:47:10,654 --> 00:47:16,294
Speaker 3: bunch of plays, I don't give notes on plays. I

1058
00:47:16,334 --> 00:47:20,953
Speaker 3: can call the dramaturg and say, I'm bumping on this,

1059
00:47:21,413 --> 00:47:23,064
Speaker 3: and I don't know about this.

1060
00:47:23,604 --> 00:47:25,983
Speaker 2: But I think there's a deeper... I really think that

1061
00:47:26,283 --> 00:47:30,163
Speaker 2: we are using... We're in the philosophy business. And our

1062
00:47:30,243 --> 00:47:33,684
Speaker 2: medium are various forms of entertainment. And that's television and

1063
00:47:33,743 --> 00:47:37,073
Speaker 2: theater and opera. But we're in the philosophy business. And

1064
00:47:37,134 --> 00:47:39,893
Speaker 2: I think that we have a lot of philosophical talks

1065
00:47:41,373 --> 00:47:43,533
Speaker 2: about who we are with each other, about who we

1066
00:47:43,634 --> 00:47:48,433
Speaker 2: are with our kid, about kids in general, about agency. So...

1067
00:47:48,674 --> 00:47:50,613
Speaker 2: When you say like, where do the ideas come from?

1068
00:47:50,634 --> 00:47:53,933
Speaker 2: They come from the dining room table. And because we're

1069
00:47:53,973 --> 00:48:00,763
Speaker 2: drawing on the table, we're slowing down and having real conversations.

1070
00:48:00,824 --> 00:48:03,703
Speaker 2: And Cher is an amazing ceramicist. So she's talking about,

1071
00:48:04,104 --> 00:48:06,324
Speaker 2: I love this mug and I'm thinking about this shape.

1072
00:48:06,404 --> 00:48:10,984
Speaker 2: And like, that's what I'm trying to make. I'm trying

1073
00:48:11,004 --> 00:48:13,203
Speaker 2: to make a mug. I'm trying to make something that

1074
00:48:13,303 --> 00:48:17,893
Speaker 2: holds something. If it doesn't hold it, the story, the meaning,

1075
00:48:18,373 --> 00:48:19,334
Speaker 2: then it's worthless.

1076
00:48:19,453 --> 00:48:22,093
Speaker 1: If it's pretty, that's great.

1077
00:48:22,493 --> 00:48:25,134
Speaker 2: So I think that we go to our own corners

1078
00:48:25,314 --> 00:48:28,413
Speaker 2: of like shares running the business and figuring out to

1079
00:48:28,473 --> 00:48:31,613
Speaker 2: make sure that people feel empowered to do their best,

1080
00:48:31,674 --> 00:48:34,593
Speaker 2: but yet speak with one voice and all of that stuff.

1081
00:48:35,604 --> 00:48:38,584
Speaker 2: But when we're, when we really are together, we're talking

1082
00:48:38,663 --> 00:48:44,084
Speaker 2: about a disenfranchised community, which is children. Yeah.

1083
00:48:44,533 --> 00:48:44,814
Speaker 1: Right?

1084
00:48:45,033 --> 00:48:48,734
Speaker 2: The furniture is not made to their size. They are

1085
00:48:48,913 --> 00:48:50,633
Speaker 2: told to stop.

1086
00:48:50,893 --> 00:48:51,174
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1087
00:48:51,493 --> 00:48:54,643
Speaker 2: They can be lifted out of a room and taken away.

1088
00:48:55,283 --> 00:49:02,244
Speaker 2: They are an inconvenience. So the feelings that that brings

1089
00:49:02,344 --> 00:49:05,084
Speaker 2: up in all of us, we all have had that,

1090
00:49:05,203 --> 00:49:06,303
Speaker 2: even a good childhood.

1091
00:49:06,364 --> 00:49:08,303
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. Right? Yeah.

1092
00:49:08,424 --> 00:49:12,834
Speaker 2: So I think that we are co-philosophers because we work

1093
00:49:12,873 --> 00:49:13,174
Speaker 2: it out.

1094
00:49:13,533 --> 00:49:14,053
Speaker 1: Together.

1095
00:49:14,263 --> 00:49:18,963
Speaker 2: Yeah. That's right. That's right.

1096
00:49:21,364 --> 00:49:23,634
Speaker 1: That's right. That would be a great place to end,

1097
00:49:23,643 --> 00:49:26,604
Speaker 1: but we're not done. This is the other thing I find,

1098
00:49:26,604 --> 00:49:29,163
Speaker 1: because the books, you know, it's it's always it looks

1099
00:49:29,243 --> 00:49:30,923
Speaker 1: easier for like you say somebody like i could write

1100
00:49:30,964 --> 00:49:33,883
Speaker 1: that i don't think that i do think man it

1101
00:49:34,183 --> 00:49:35,743
Speaker 1: like i know that there's like a like there's a

1102
00:49:35,763 --> 00:49:37,524
Speaker 1: certain there's a page count that these books have that

1103
00:49:37,544 --> 00:49:38,883
Speaker 1: you sort of know you have to meet this page

1104
00:49:38,944 --> 00:49:41,774
Speaker 1: count so it can't end on page you know.

1105
00:49:41,703 --> 00:49:44,133
Speaker 2: Right well it has to be an even number because

1106
00:49:44,154 --> 00:49:47,074
Speaker 2: the page has two sides yes if there's a physicality

1107
00:49:47,094 --> 00:49:50,343
Speaker 2: to it yeah here's the thing a When people think

1108
00:49:50,404 --> 00:49:53,104
Speaker 2: about books, they forget that they're sculptures. They're not books.

1109
00:49:53,163 --> 00:49:56,803
Speaker 2: They're sculptures. So the size and shape of the book

1110
00:49:56,944 --> 00:49:59,923
Speaker 2: is already telling you what it is. So I did

1111
00:49:59,964 --> 00:50:03,123
Speaker 2: a book called Leonardo the Terrible Monster. It is a

1112
00:50:03,283 --> 00:50:05,814
Speaker 2: huge book. It is the largest book that you can

1113
00:50:05,973 --> 00:50:09,113
Speaker 2: publish that can still fit in a shelf. Why? Because

1114
00:50:09,174 --> 00:50:12,473
Speaker 2: if I told you that Leonardo was small, I would

1115
00:50:12,493 --> 00:50:15,154
Speaker 2: be didactic. But if I made him small in a

1116
00:50:15,194 --> 00:50:17,234
Speaker 2: book that's too big for a kid to handle, they

1117
00:50:17,274 --> 00:50:22,283
Speaker 2: would make the discovery. So as a general rule, a

1118
00:50:22,604 --> 00:50:26,444
Speaker 2: book that is about a person is tall because when

1119
00:50:26,464 --> 00:50:29,084
Speaker 2: you take a picture of a person, it's tall, right?

1120
00:50:29,524 --> 00:50:33,554
Speaker 2: So Leonardo, the terrible monster, Lily and the purple plastic purse.

1121
00:50:34,114 --> 00:50:37,834
Speaker 2: When you are writing a book about community or a place,

1122
00:50:38,033 --> 00:50:41,173
Speaker 2: it's wide. Knuffle bunny, where the.

1123
00:50:41,114 --> 00:50:42,053
Speaker 1: Wild things are.

1124
00:50:42,973 --> 00:50:45,474
Speaker 2: Because when you take a picture of something that as

1125
00:50:45,513 --> 00:50:49,373
Speaker 2: a scenic thing, it's usually wide. So I made a

1126
00:50:49,433 --> 00:50:53,493
Speaker 2: book called Edwina the Dinosaur Who Didn't Know She Was Extinct.

1127
00:50:54,194 --> 00:50:56,354
Speaker 2: And I really thought that this was about a dinosaur

1128
00:50:56,393 --> 00:50:58,004
Speaker 2: who didn't know she was extinct, so I thought it

1129
00:50:58,044 --> 00:51:00,054
Speaker 2: would be a tall book. But as I drew it,

1130
00:51:00,084 --> 00:51:02,623
Speaker 2: the drawings got wider and wider and wider, and they

1131
00:51:02,663 --> 00:51:06,604
Speaker 2: started to become like the old Japanese cartoon scrolls from

1132
00:51:06,643 --> 00:51:08,974
Speaker 2: the 1900s, 1800s, where time passes even though it's just

1133
00:51:09,033 --> 00:51:14,944
Speaker 2: one image. And they got longer and longer and longer

1134
00:51:14,984 --> 00:51:18,204
Speaker 2: until I realized the question I was asking was not,

1135
00:51:18,344 --> 00:51:21,623
Speaker 2: what is it like to be a dinosaur who's not extinct?

1136
00:51:22,024 --> 00:51:25,284
Speaker 2: What is it like for a society to accept something

1137
00:51:26,024 --> 00:51:30,104
Speaker 2: that doesn't exist? But if you start by going wide

1138
00:51:30,864 --> 00:51:33,364
Speaker 2: and you impose that, you haven't done the process.

1139
00:51:33,574 --> 00:51:35,723
Speaker 1: You have to go through the process. I mean, I find, again,

1140
00:51:35,763 --> 00:51:38,213
Speaker 1: it's like I think about stand-up, like I'll have ideas

1141
00:51:38,234 --> 00:51:42,413
Speaker 1: for jokes or a story I want to tell And

1142
00:51:42,433 --> 00:51:45,514
Speaker 1: then on stage telling the story, you're like, oh, oh, oh, oh,

1143
00:51:45,553 --> 00:51:48,073
Speaker 1: look at that. And also, oh, they laughed at that.

1144
00:51:48,214 --> 00:51:49,213
Speaker 1: I should go down that alley.

1145
00:51:49,354 --> 00:51:49,973
Speaker 2: Right, right.

1146
00:51:49,993 --> 00:51:51,393
Speaker 1: Oh, oh, oh, look at that. I didn't know I'd

1147
00:51:51,433 --> 00:51:55,274
Speaker 1: say that. And then, oh, look where we ended up at.

1148
00:51:55,433 --> 00:51:57,074
Speaker 1: And that's part of the process.

1149
00:51:57,094 --> 00:52:00,143
Speaker 2: That's also just being open to the curiosity of the characters.

1150
00:52:00,263 --> 00:52:03,544
Speaker 2: And in my case, the actual drawings telling me what

1151
00:52:03,683 --> 00:52:08,143
Speaker 2: the story is. If you don't explore and audition pens

1152
00:52:08,223 --> 00:52:12,213
Speaker 2: and papers and ideas and character and design, you're never

1153
00:52:12,274 --> 00:52:15,994
Speaker 2: going to know what you're hiding from yourself.

1154
00:52:17,703 --> 00:52:20,884
Speaker 1: I mean, again, the analogy for me was like, it

1155
00:52:20,904 --> 00:52:22,943
Speaker 1: was stand-up is very quick because you will reveal things

1156
00:52:22,964 --> 00:52:25,383
Speaker 1: about yourself and be like, ah, and then I have

1157
00:52:25,444 --> 00:52:27,123
Speaker 1: this happen where then I have to be like, I

1158
00:52:27,163 --> 00:52:28,944
Speaker 1: got to go make sure it's okay I talked about that.

1159
00:52:28,984 --> 00:52:31,503
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, right, right. But you know what I loved

1160
00:52:31,544 --> 00:52:35,064
Speaker 2: about my time doing, performing and doing stand-up was You

1161
00:52:35,324 --> 00:52:38,004
Speaker 2: never learned what was funny, but you immediately learned what wasn't.

1162
00:52:38,143 --> 00:52:38,663
Speaker 1: No, for sure.

1163
00:52:38,723 --> 00:52:42,704
Speaker 2: Right? And your muscles of what's not funny get really

1164
00:52:42,743 --> 00:52:43,964
Speaker 2: strong really quickly.

1165
00:53:02,053 --> 00:53:04,634
Speaker 1: Do you ever lose an idea? Because this, like, do

1166
00:53:04,654 --> 00:53:06,323
Speaker 1: you ever have an idea that, like, starts off and

1167
00:53:06,344 --> 00:53:09,544
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, I am, this is, I'm cooking with gas.

1168
00:53:09,584 --> 00:53:11,263
Speaker 1: And then at some point it just sort of, like, it's.

1169
00:53:11,504 --> 00:53:12,384
Speaker 2: Gas is poisonous.

1170
00:53:12,404 --> 00:53:12,744
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1171
00:53:12,864 --> 00:53:13,084
Speaker 3: Yes.

1172
00:53:14,123 --> 00:53:17,863
Speaker 2: Yes. Absolutely. I was cooking and it was gas.

1173
00:53:17,904 --> 00:53:19,104
Speaker 1: Yeah. And then I passed out and woke up.

1174
00:53:19,104 --> 00:53:20,024
Speaker 2: And then I passed out and it's.

1175
00:53:20,044 --> 00:53:22,173
Speaker 1: Luckily somebody opened a window.

1176
00:53:22,194 --> 00:53:22,393
Speaker 2: Sure.

1177
00:53:22,413 --> 00:53:24,113
Speaker 1: Sure. Are there ideas right now that you're like, I

1178
00:53:24,154 --> 00:53:26,493
Speaker 1: just can't believe I can't get that back? That something

1179
00:53:26,513 --> 00:53:27,013
Speaker 1: you thought was.

1180
00:53:27,053 --> 00:53:29,533
Speaker 2: I've thrown stuff away. Sure. But you put it back

1181
00:53:29,574 --> 00:53:30,553
Speaker 2: in the idea garden. Yeah.

1182
00:53:30,574 --> 00:53:32,594
Speaker 1: Okay. Okay. But you have, there is a time where you,

1183
00:53:32,783 --> 00:53:34,403
Speaker 1: and Cher, I see you thinking about that too, like

1184
00:53:34,504 --> 00:53:36,663
Speaker 1: ideas where you're like, this didn't come together and we're.

1185
00:53:36,864 --> 00:53:39,854
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, just because you've got a great idea doesn't

1186
00:53:39,873 --> 00:53:40,394
Speaker 3: mean it works.

1187
00:53:41,814 --> 00:53:43,354
Speaker 1: I guess people don't, but I think people think with

1188
00:53:43,373 --> 00:53:45,973
Speaker 1: a kid's book, I mean, again, back to the condescension, like, well,

1189
00:53:45,993 --> 00:53:47,453
Speaker 1: you just say he went here and then he said

1190
00:53:47,493 --> 00:53:49,433
Speaker 1: that and then at the end they hugged. Like, what's

1191
00:53:49,473 --> 00:53:50,054
Speaker 1: the big deal?

1192
00:53:50,493 --> 00:53:51,953
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, you can do that.

1193
00:53:51,973 --> 00:53:54,593
Speaker 1: Yeah. You can do that.

1194
00:53:54,674 --> 00:53:58,473
Speaker 2: That's fine. That's fine with me. You go do that.

1195
00:53:58,634 --> 00:54:00,923
Speaker 2: I don't know. I'm not saying what should be written

1196
00:54:00,964 --> 00:54:03,723
Speaker 2: or what shouldn't be written. People can write what they write.

1197
00:54:04,084 --> 00:54:08,984
Speaker 2: What I am doing for myself is trying to make

1198
00:54:09,283 --> 00:54:13,473
Speaker 2: kids seeable and trying to make discoveries. Is that the

1199
00:54:13,654 --> 00:54:14,694
Speaker 2: only way to make books?

1200
00:54:15,114 --> 00:54:15,454
Speaker 1: No.

1201
00:54:17,953 --> 00:54:21,393
Speaker 2: Jacqueline Woodson and I are very close friends. She does

1202
00:54:21,433 --> 00:54:25,594
Speaker 2: not write like I do. She sits down and, man,

1203
00:54:25,844 --> 00:54:31,244
Speaker 2: she just poets her way through something. And it happens.

1204
00:54:31,384 --> 00:54:33,403
Speaker 2: And she has her own techniques. And she tells her

1205
00:54:33,464 --> 00:54:36,703
Speaker 2: own stories. And she is funny and serious and all

1206
00:54:36,723 --> 00:54:39,553
Speaker 2: of that stuff. But, man, the way I work, I

1207
00:54:39,594 --> 00:54:42,133
Speaker 2: could never impose that on her. And she could never

1208
00:54:42,194 --> 00:54:44,774
Speaker 2: impose that on me. That's not the point.

1209
00:54:44,873 --> 00:54:46,413
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Right? Yeah, yeah.

1210
00:54:47,663 --> 00:54:50,633
Speaker 2: That there are techniques that i have learned from some

1211
00:54:50,674 --> 00:54:52,754
Speaker 2: people that i can use that work for me and

1212
00:54:52,794 --> 00:54:56,254
Speaker 2: vice versa but the idea that you should do it

1213
00:54:56,294 --> 00:54:59,834
Speaker 2: the way i do it means that then i'm already

1214
00:54:59,873 --> 00:55:00,674
Speaker 2: doing that.

1215
00:55:00,674 --> 00:55:03,703
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah right yeah well believe me it was a

1216
00:55:03,743 --> 00:55:05,303
Speaker 1: lot when i just handed you the proofs of the

1217
00:55:05,484 --> 00:55:07,044
Speaker 1: book to me and adam were working on because i

1218
00:55:07,064 --> 00:55:08,964
Speaker 1: was just like i know he's my friend now but

1219
00:55:09,004 --> 00:55:13,234
Speaker 1: it's still It is still Mo Willems. So I just

1220
00:55:13,254 --> 00:55:16,674
Speaker 1: feel like, I mean, it's, I mean, I, you know.

1221
00:55:16,694 --> 00:55:19,263
Speaker 2: You know what? It does not have to speak to

1222
00:55:19,303 --> 00:55:23,464
Speaker 2: me to be great. And it does not have to

1223
00:55:23,524 --> 00:55:26,453
Speaker 2: speak to a lot of people to not speak to

1224
00:55:26,533 --> 00:55:27,933
Speaker 2: a few people deeply.

1225
00:55:28,074 --> 00:55:28,513
Speaker 1: There you go.

1226
00:55:28,984 --> 00:55:32,384
Speaker 2: And so every book does not have to be a

1227
00:55:32,984 --> 00:55:36,884
Speaker 2: hit in that sense. Every hit affords you to take

1228
00:55:36,924 --> 00:55:39,693
Speaker 2: a bigger risk. That's the only thing that a hit

1229
00:55:39,734 --> 00:55:40,354
Speaker 2: is worthwhile.

1230
00:55:41,254 --> 00:55:42,013
Speaker 1: Right? I appreciate that.

1231
00:55:42,033 --> 00:55:43,774
Speaker 2: And so you get a sticker. If you win something,

1232
00:55:43,794 --> 00:55:45,573
Speaker 2: you get a sticker. And I literally would do this.

1233
00:55:45,734 --> 00:55:48,354
Speaker 2: I will trade that sticker in for something that is

1234
00:55:48,393 --> 00:55:49,734
Speaker 2: completely unmarketable.

1235
00:55:51,973 --> 00:55:55,513
Speaker 1: That's funny. Trade it in for an idea that they're like, oh,

1236
00:55:55,533 --> 00:55:58,794
Speaker 1: now we got to do it because you got the sticker. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

1237
00:55:59,114 --> 00:56:01,263
Speaker 2: I mean, on a certain level, Elephant and Piggy was

1238
00:56:01,324 --> 00:56:01,763
Speaker 2: one of those.

1239
00:56:02,384 --> 00:56:03,284
Speaker 1: That's so wild.

1240
00:56:03,324 --> 00:56:04,584
Speaker 2: They didn't want me to make those.

1241
00:56:04,783 --> 00:56:06,343
Speaker 1: I mean, this is the thing I don't think I

1242
00:56:06,444 --> 00:56:09,584
Speaker 1: even understand about kids' books. And I think people, this

1243
00:56:09,604 --> 00:56:12,283
Speaker 1: is the part that I, like, I have a friend

1244
00:56:12,324 --> 00:56:14,174
Speaker 1: who wrote a kid's book years ago. He just wrote it.

1245
00:56:14,174 --> 00:56:16,894
Speaker 1: He didn't draw it. And it is not a hit.

1246
00:56:17,194 --> 00:56:19,013
Speaker 1: It is not. But in our house, it's a hit.

1247
00:56:19,074 --> 00:56:21,474
Speaker 1: And we've taken and read it. And like every kid,

1248
00:56:21,953 --> 00:56:23,754
Speaker 1: each of my three daughters, if someone said, bring this

1249
00:56:23,774 --> 00:56:28,104
Speaker 1: to school and read this. Right. It's called The Hugely

1250
00:56:28,143 --> 00:56:31,084
Speaker 1: Woojley Spider. Okay. By a friend of mine named Ethan Berlin.

1251
00:56:31,123 --> 00:56:32,943
Speaker 1: He was a comedy writer. Again, a comedy writer. Right, right.

1252
00:56:33,004 --> 00:56:36,084
Speaker 1: Wrote Untoldly Biased and wrote this book. And he sent

1253
00:56:36,104 --> 00:56:37,084
Speaker 1: it to me when it came out and I was like,

1254
00:56:37,283 --> 00:56:38,704
Speaker 1: and it's a hit in my house, but it is

1255
00:56:38,743 --> 00:56:40,334
Speaker 1: not a hit I see in the world. There's another

1256
00:56:40,354 --> 00:56:42,954
Speaker 1: kid's book that I was just talking about yesterday called Mr.

1257
00:56:43,094 --> 00:56:45,664
Speaker 1: Okra Sells Fresh Fruits and Vegetables, which is about a,

1258
00:56:45,754 --> 00:56:48,413
Speaker 1: in New Orleans actually. Right, okay. This guy who drove

1259
00:56:48,433 --> 00:56:50,864
Speaker 1: a truck in New Orleans named Mr. Okra, big gregarious

1260
00:56:50,904 --> 00:56:53,224
Speaker 1: black guy who sang through the streets selling fruits and vegetables.

1261
00:56:53,504 --> 00:56:55,163
Speaker 1: And it's also a tourist book of New Orleans because

1262
00:56:55,203 --> 00:56:57,473
Speaker 1: it's like, The blueberries were the same color as the

1263
00:56:57,533 --> 00:57:01,294
Speaker 1: doors of the museum. And we loved that book so

1264
00:57:01,314 --> 00:57:04,133
Speaker 1: much that when Juno, my middle kid, was four, she

1265
00:57:04,174 --> 00:57:05,354
Speaker 1: wanted to go to New Orleans because my dad was

1266
00:57:05,373 --> 00:57:05,653
Speaker 1: in Alabama.

1267
00:57:05,674 --> 00:57:06,473
Speaker 2: Because she wanted to do the book.

1268
00:57:06,513 --> 00:57:08,363
Speaker 1: Yeah. So my dad lives in Alabama, which is two

1269
00:57:08,384 --> 00:57:09,903
Speaker 1: hours from New Orleans. We did it. And we did

1270
00:57:09,944 --> 00:57:13,064
Speaker 1: the book. And we went to the museum. Well, we

1271
00:57:13,104 --> 00:57:15,084
Speaker 1: saw the Mahalia Jackson set. We didn't stop. But we

1272
00:57:15,344 --> 00:57:18,064
Speaker 1: saw everything in the book. Oh, the beignets are across

1273
00:57:18,084 --> 00:57:20,004
Speaker 1: the street from the church. So we're right here. Like

1274
00:57:20,044 --> 00:57:22,524
Speaker 1: the palm front. And we just talked about it last night.

1275
00:57:23,314 --> 00:57:25,194
Speaker 1: in my house, that book is a hit. If you

1276
00:57:25,214 --> 00:57:26,694
Speaker 1: go to Amazon and try to order that book, it

1277
00:57:26,734 --> 00:57:28,334
Speaker 1: is like, it's going to take 10 days. You know,

1278
00:57:28,374 --> 00:57:30,903
Speaker 1: it's not. And so to me, random ants.

1279
00:57:31,204 --> 00:57:31,383
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1280
00:57:31,444 --> 00:57:34,764
Speaker 1: Random ants. But the fine line between like, do you

1281
00:57:34,804 --> 00:57:37,124
Speaker 1: understand that line? Like, do you understand what is the

1282
00:57:37,144 --> 00:57:40,004
Speaker 1: difference between like, I can look at a comedian who

1283
00:57:40,144 --> 00:57:42,744
Speaker 1: I don't think is funny, who is successful and go,

1284
00:57:42,844 --> 00:57:45,054
Speaker 1: I think this is why this person is successful. I

1285
00:57:45,074 --> 00:57:47,133
Speaker 1: can look at a comedian who is not successful, who

1286
00:57:47,174 --> 00:57:49,424
Speaker 1: I think is funny and go, Yeah, I guess I

1287
00:57:49,444 --> 00:57:51,424
Speaker 1: can see why. I can see what's not happening. And

1288
00:57:51,444 --> 00:57:53,444
Speaker 1: sometimes you go, they haven't had the right shot, and

1289
00:57:53,464 --> 00:57:55,944
Speaker 1: so maybe it could come. But can you look, the

1290
00:57:55,984 --> 00:57:59,214
Speaker 1: collective you, the individual you, go, for other people and

1291
00:57:59,234 --> 00:58:01,954
Speaker 1: for yourself, I know why this is happening and why

1292
00:58:01,994 --> 00:58:02,734
Speaker 1: this isn't happening.

1293
00:58:03,774 --> 00:58:05,554
Speaker 2: I'm now at the stage where I don't want to

1294
00:58:05,594 --> 00:58:06,554
Speaker 2: be influenced.

1295
00:58:06,754 --> 00:58:07,034
Speaker 1: Okay.

1296
00:58:07,054 --> 00:58:10,514
Speaker 2: There are very few, like, so I kind of try

1297
00:58:10,574 --> 00:58:11,323
Speaker 2: and step back.

1298
00:58:11,454 --> 00:58:13,343
Speaker 1: You're doing an Enya. You're doing an Enya. No music

1299
00:58:13,364 --> 00:58:13,794
Speaker 1: but your own.

1300
00:58:15,514 --> 00:58:18,354
Speaker 2: It's easier to talk about, like, I will say Vashti

1301
00:58:18,374 --> 00:58:21,054
Speaker 2: Harrison did a book called Big. And I saw that

1302
00:58:21,094 --> 00:58:23,113
Speaker 2: book and I was like, this is a great book.

1303
00:58:23,174 --> 00:58:25,193
Speaker 2: And it won the Caldecon and it did very well

1304
00:58:25,254 --> 00:58:28,034
Speaker 2: and it was great for her career. I don't know

1305
00:58:28,074 --> 00:58:30,394
Speaker 2: that I saw all that, but I was like, this

1306
00:58:31,414 --> 00:58:37,014
Speaker 2: is unique. Here's the thing. Stand-up comedy and kids' books are,

1307
00:58:37,284 --> 00:58:43,484
Speaker 2: I think, the two last bastions of individual voices because

1308
00:58:43,524 --> 00:58:46,354
Speaker 2: of cost. Like a book does not cost a lot.

1309
00:58:46,394 --> 00:58:48,244
Speaker 1: You're going to make a TV show.

1310
00:58:48,404 --> 00:58:51,363
Speaker 2: It can't be an individual voice. It just can't because

1311
00:58:51,384 --> 00:58:55,744
Speaker 2: there's too much risk. And it's an industry based on fear, right?

1312
00:58:56,444 --> 00:59:01,764
Speaker 2: So when I come across a book that sounds only

1313
00:59:01,824 --> 00:59:06,294
Speaker 2: like somebody, then I'm like, wow. Because now I've just

1314
00:59:06,554 --> 00:59:10,754
Speaker 2: met somebody. So big was that. The idea of going

1315
00:59:10,814 --> 00:59:13,894
Speaker 2: around New Orleans and going to different landmarks You're not

1316
00:59:13,934 --> 00:59:16,804
Speaker 2: telling me anything about the book. Yeah. Because so many

1317
00:59:16,844 --> 00:59:18,304
Speaker 2: other people can do a book about that.

1318
00:59:18,344 --> 00:59:18,574
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1319
00:59:19,114 --> 00:59:22,044
Speaker 2: How much was that that person yeah how real did

1320
00:59:22,084 --> 00:59:24,244
Speaker 2: it feel how much you feel that you've actually made

1321
00:59:24,264 --> 00:59:26,403
Speaker 2: a friend yeah because again a book is not meant

1322
00:59:26,424 --> 00:59:28,284
Speaker 2: to be read yeah book is meant to be read

1323
00:59:28,304 --> 00:59:32,284
Speaker 2: a billion times a friend yeah is not meant to

1324
00:59:32,324 --> 00:59:35,494
Speaker 2: be met friend is meant to spend time with and

1325
00:59:35,534 --> 00:59:39,034
Speaker 2: meet over and over and over and over again That's

1326
00:59:39,054 --> 00:59:41,984
Speaker 2: the definition of friendship. That's why books are friends.

1327
00:59:42,484 --> 00:59:44,724
Speaker 1: Well, that's what this book, the Mr. Okra book, I'm

1328
00:59:44,744 --> 00:59:47,863
Speaker 1: thinking of specifically. And the woman who wrote it, LaShawn Daly,

1329
00:59:47,884 --> 00:59:50,204
Speaker 1: is now a kid's lit professor at San Diego State.

1330
00:59:50,244 --> 00:59:51,593
Speaker 1: I just looked at her. Last night, we were like,

1331
00:59:51,904 --> 00:59:54,054
Speaker 1: whatever happened to her? And I met her because I

1332
00:59:54,074 --> 00:59:55,354
Speaker 1: was walking down the street and she knew I had

1333
00:59:55,394 --> 00:59:56,613
Speaker 1: kids and she was going to Berkeley at the time.

1334
00:59:56,634 --> 00:59:58,573
Speaker 1: She gave me the book. Otherwise, I would never know

1335
00:59:58,594 --> 01:00:00,854
Speaker 1: this book. And I was like, thanks. And it became

1336
01:00:00,894 --> 01:00:02,964
Speaker 1: a staple of my family. And it became a thing

1337
01:00:02,984 --> 01:00:05,843
Speaker 1: where we like Googled Mr. Okra and saw news clips

1338
01:00:05,904 --> 01:00:09,344
Speaker 1: about him. And then like, there's a Mr. Okra toy

1339
01:00:09,384 --> 01:00:10,524
Speaker 1: that you could order for a little while, but they

1340
01:00:10,564 --> 01:00:13,964
Speaker 1: weren't selling them anymore. I found that I wasn't singing

1341
01:00:14,004 --> 01:00:16,664
Speaker 1: his voice the right way, like all the things and

1342
01:00:16,704 --> 01:00:19,684
Speaker 1: like found that he had passed away and that his

1343
01:00:19,724 --> 01:00:21,343
Speaker 1: daughter maybe took it over. Like, how can we figure

1344
01:00:21,364 --> 01:00:23,724
Speaker 1: out if his, like we went down the whole Mr.

1345
01:00:23,804 --> 01:00:26,653
Speaker 1: Okra rabbit hole. And so I feel very like that

1346
01:00:26,684 --> 01:00:29,073
Speaker 1: is one of the definitive books of our family. And

1347
01:00:29,094 --> 01:00:32,153
Speaker 1: I can imagine that my kids, if they have kids

1348
01:00:32,194 --> 01:00:35,133
Speaker 1: in their life, will be reading that book along with Piggy.

1349
01:00:35,404 --> 01:00:35,994
Speaker 1: That's great.

1350
01:00:36,034 --> 01:00:38,124
Speaker 2: That's great. I mean, it's a miracle.

1351
01:00:38,184 --> 01:00:38,383
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1352
01:00:38,724 --> 01:00:41,923
Speaker 2: Right? So you're in community with someone you don't know.

1353
01:00:41,944 --> 01:00:43,524
Speaker 2: I mean, that's the power of it.

1354
01:00:43,664 --> 01:00:45,604
Speaker 1: But can you, so again, now I'm talking to you, Cher,

1355
01:00:45,624 --> 01:00:48,224
Speaker 1: because he's trying to ignore my question. Can you, is

1356
01:00:48,264 --> 01:00:49,863
Speaker 1: there a thing that you can look at and go,

1357
01:00:51,284 --> 01:00:54,863
Speaker 1: specifically with books outside of yourself, because I think we,

1358
01:00:55,014 --> 01:00:56,713
Speaker 1: I get that like, you may be too close and go,

1359
01:00:57,234 --> 01:00:59,514
Speaker 1: this book is a hit. This book is not a hit.

1360
01:01:00,014 --> 01:01:02,593
Speaker 1: this book I just, and not that you're judging it,

1361
01:01:03,134 --> 01:01:05,294
Speaker 1: but it's sort of the landscape of these things, you know?

1362
01:01:06,054 --> 01:01:08,454
Speaker 3: Well, I think there's always going to be something that's

1363
01:01:08,494 --> 01:01:13,564
Speaker 3: just going to be a fluke that catches people by

1364
01:01:13,624 --> 01:01:15,804
Speaker 3: surprise and it's for whatever reason, right?

1365
01:01:15,824 --> 01:01:15,904
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1366
01:01:16,604 --> 01:01:21,084
Speaker 3: I think that most of the books that are really

1367
01:01:21,784 --> 01:01:28,534
Speaker 3: genuinely have an authentic voice and that's not somebody telling

1368
01:01:28,614 --> 01:01:33,443
Speaker 3: you what they think you want to hear. I think

1369
01:01:33,484 --> 01:01:37,653
Speaker 3: that's rare. And I think that's ultimately the difference between

1370
01:01:37,914 --> 01:01:40,213
Speaker 3: what Pigeon is and the books that you were trying

1371
01:01:40,234 --> 01:01:41,684
Speaker 3: to write Yeah, yeah.

1372
01:01:41,744 --> 01:01:43,154
Speaker 2: I think in the beginning.

1373
01:01:43,204 --> 01:01:46,113
Speaker 1: Yeah, we didn't talk about the Oxford failures. No, but

1374
01:01:46,154 --> 01:01:46,974
Speaker 1: I do. Not failures.

1375
01:01:47,034 --> 01:01:50,254
Speaker 2: I think I was writing what I thought grownups would think,

1376
01:01:50,394 --> 01:01:53,914
Speaker 2: kids would think, parents would think, kids would think was funny. Right.

1377
01:01:53,934 --> 01:01:54,153
Speaker 1: Wow.

1378
01:01:54,434 --> 01:01:58,604
Speaker 3: And so I think when you encounter someone who's not

1379
01:01:58,724 --> 01:02:03,604
Speaker 3: trying to make themselves into the shape they think you'll like,

1380
01:02:04,904 --> 01:02:07,264
Speaker 3: I think it's surprising and exciting.

1381
01:02:07,534 --> 01:02:07,684
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1382
01:02:09,624 --> 01:02:13,064
Speaker 3: So I think most of the books that are really

1383
01:02:13,104 --> 01:02:15,363
Speaker 3: surprising and delightful have that in common.

1384
01:02:15,494 --> 01:02:15,784
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1385
01:02:15,994 --> 01:02:17,274
Speaker 3: Maybe not all of them, but.

1386
01:02:17,134 --> 01:02:18,173
Speaker 2: A lot of them.

1387
01:02:18,194 --> 01:02:18,573
Speaker 3: I would agree.

1388
01:02:18,614 --> 01:02:22,914
Speaker 2: I would also say that authors who are authentic and illustrators,

1389
01:02:22,954 --> 01:02:25,434
Speaker 2: particularly people who can do both, make a lot of books.

1390
01:02:25,874 --> 01:02:26,154
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1391
01:02:26,594 --> 01:02:29,854
Speaker 2: So there is something about that, that they're in touch with.

1392
01:02:29,874 --> 01:02:32,394
Speaker 2: I mean, Cher has great advice for people who want

1393
01:02:32,414 --> 01:02:35,994
Speaker 2: to write. Jordan's books in particular, she's like, just write

1394
01:02:36,094 --> 01:02:39,113
Speaker 2: one book. Yeah. Don't try to write all the books

1395
01:02:39,174 --> 01:02:42,394
Speaker 2: in one volume. Don't try to say everything you think

1396
01:02:42,434 --> 01:02:44,653
Speaker 2: you know about the world. Just find the one thing.

1397
01:02:44,764 --> 01:02:47,204
Speaker 2: Why don't I want to go to the symphony? That's

1398
01:02:47,304 --> 01:02:49,804
Speaker 2: enough to explore.

1399
01:02:49,964 --> 01:02:51,863
Speaker 1: But even that, you didn't write a book about not

1400
01:02:51,884 --> 01:02:54,284
Speaker 1: going to the symphony. It became about pigeon-teating. So you're

1401
01:02:54,364 --> 01:02:58,024
Speaker 1: letting your brain go, let's deconstruct this Let's get the

1402
01:02:58,124 --> 01:02:59,484
Speaker 1: essence and put that in something.

1403
01:02:59,524 --> 01:03:00,024
Speaker 2: How is.

1404
01:03:00,344 --> 01:03:02,124
Speaker 1: Because it could have been about Pigeon not going to

1405
01:03:02,164 --> 01:03:02,624
Speaker 1: the symphony.

1406
01:03:02,744 --> 01:03:05,394
Speaker 2: How? No. Well, then it's a kid issue and what

1407
01:03:05,454 --> 01:03:08,133
Speaker 2: is funny and what is physical. But the question is,

1408
01:03:08,714 --> 01:03:10,573
Speaker 2: why do I resist what I love?

1409
01:03:10,734 --> 01:03:11,814
Speaker 1: Yeah. You get to the heart.

1410
01:03:12,034 --> 01:03:14,213
Speaker 2: And that's the philosophy. Yeah.

1411
01:03:14,314 --> 01:03:16,914
Speaker 3: Well, and hopefully something that a kid has experienced.

1412
01:03:17,514 --> 01:03:17,753
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1413
01:03:17,854 --> 01:03:20,294
Speaker 3: Because if you write a book about how awesome skydiving is,

1414
01:03:20,314 --> 01:03:21,673
Speaker 3: they're like, well.

1415
01:03:22,084 --> 01:03:24,464
Speaker 2: Okay. Yeah, right.

1416
01:03:24,484 --> 01:03:26,943
Speaker 1: One day I miss, I'll pay the $ 2. 50 and get

1417
01:03:26,964 --> 01:03:29,044
Speaker 1: strapped to a stranger and jump out a plane. We'll

1418
01:03:29,064 --> 01:03:30,104
Speaker 1: see what happens.

1419
01:03:30,644 --> 01:03:32,304
Speaker 2: I think that's a really good point. I mean, you

1420
01:03:32,324 --> 01:03:36,133
Speaker 2: do want to make it simple. And there's also just

1421
01:03:36,234 --> 01:03:41,174
Speaker 2: realizing developmentally where kids are. So the pigeon books. The

1422
01:03:41,214 --> 01:03:45,054
Speaker 2: pigeon is loud, not because he's obnoxious, because he's not heard.

1423
01:03:45,534 --> 01:03:49,494
Speaker 2: But there are picture books. Picture books are books for

1424
01:03:49,554 --> 01:03:52,594
Speaker 2: kids who don't know how to read. Therefore, somebody reads

1425
01:03:52,674 --> 01:03:55,924
Speaker 2: it for them, usually someone who loves them deeply. So

1426
01:03:56,324 --> 01:03:58,363
Speaker 2: the kid who is getting a picture book read to them,

1427
01:03:58,724 --> 01:04:03,704
Speaker 2: who takes a chicken finger and throws it across the room,

1428
01:04:04,284 --> 01:04:06,503
Speaker 2: that parent will say, please don't throw that chicken finger

1429
01:04:06,544 --> 01:04:09,883
Speaker 2: across the room. They might even chastise them, but they're

1430
01:04:09,904 --> 01:04:12,084
Speaker 2: not going to say, I don't love you. Get out

1431
01:04:12,124 --> 01:04:13,804
Speaker 2: of my house. We hope.

1432
01:04:13,924 --> 01:04:15,594
Speaker 1: We hope. We hope.

1433
01:04:17,054 --> 01:04:21,883
Speaker 2: Early readers are elephant and piggy books. Early readers, kids

1434
01:04:21,984 --> 01:04:24,684
Speaker 2: usually tend to learn to read in a school setting,

1435
01:04:24,844 --> 01:04:27,843
Speaker 2: and their social life is about new friends. If you

1436
01:04:27,864 --> 01:04:29,924
Speaker 2: have a brand new friend and you take their chicken

1437
01:04:29,964 --> 01:04:31,724
Speaker 2: finger and you throw it across a room, that friend

1438
01:04:31,744 --> 01:04:33,764
Speaker 2: will say, I will never talk to you again.

1439
01:04:33,844 --> 01:04:34,544
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1440
01:04:34,944 --> 01:04:38,224
Speaker 2: So that's why elephant and piggy are reacting to friendship

1441
01:04:38,264 --> 01:04:39,804
Speaker 2: in a different way than pigeon.

1442
01:04:39,884 --> 01:04:41,114
Speaker 1: Pigeon, yeah. Right?

1443
01:04:41,634 --> 01:04:45,574
Speaker 2: Because the pigeon is not heard, but the pigeon also

1444
01:04:45,654 --> 01:04:49,124
Speaker 2: has a protective layer, we hope. Yeah. that will allow

1445
01:04:49,184 --> 01:04:53,664
Speaker 2: the pigeon to explore his pigeony-ness, right? His first name

1446
01:04:53,724 --> 01:04:55,924
Speaker 2: is The. He's gotta get over it.

1447
01:04:56,444 --> 01:05:00,084
Speaker 1: Right? Yeah, that is a burden.

1448
01:05:00,184 --> 01:05:05,794
Speaker 2: Right, so when you're writing anything, I'm thinking, where are they?

1449
01:05:05,854 --> 01:05:07,754
Speaker 2: Are they on a lap? Are they at school? Are

1450
01:05:07,774 --> 01:05:12,474
Speaker 2: they by themselves? How are they doing what they're doing?

1451
01:05:12,574 --> 01:05:13,894
Speaker 2: And so then how does that hit?

1452
01:05:14,034 --> 01:05:18,613
Speaker 1: Yeah. Um, we're getting close to the end, although it's

1453
01:05:18,654 --> 01:05:20,874
Speaker 1: considered for four more hours, but I know I actually

1454
01:05:20,894 --> 01:05:22,474
Speaker 1: can't cause I have a plane to catch, but also

1455
01:05:22,614 --> 01:05:24,753
Speaker 1: I really, and I love this. Thank you for doing

1456
01:05:24,774 --> 01:05:25,194
Speaker 1: this for me.

1457
01:05:25,214 --> 01:05:26,314
Speaker 2: Thank you. Thank you, Cher.

1458
01:05:26,374 --> 01:05:27,954
Speaker 1: You're welcome.

1459
01:05:28,114 --> 01:05:30,504
Speaker 2: I fit so perfectly in there.

1460
01:05:30,584 --> 01:05:33,323
Speaker 1: I was like, bring the extra wide chair today. I

1461
01:05:33,364 --> 01:05:35,184
Speaker 1: got a plan. They don't know they're both going to

1462
01:05:35,204 --> 01:05:36,444
Speaker 1: be on the show, but I got a plan. Um,

1463
01:05:37,764 --> 01:05:39,464
Speaker 1: the other thing that I want to say, and this

1464
01:05:39,524 --> 01:05:41,383
Speaker 1: is to both of you, but specifically I came through

1465
01:05:41,674 --> 01:05:44,914
Speaker 1: Mo is that as a, as a person in the

1466
01:05:44,954 --> 01:05:48,254
Speaker 1: world who's reading kids' books and who's also analyzing the

1467
01:05:48,294 --> 01:05:50,734
Speaker 1: material from when my kid is not analyzing it and

1468
01:05:50,794 --> 01:05:54,534
Speaker 1: wondering who this person is, who's writing this book and

1469
01:05:56,214 --> 01:05:58,173
Speaker 1: what are their intentions with wanting my kid to read

1470
01:05:58,214 --> 01:06:01,374
Speaker 1: a book. I, first of all, it came through Jason.

1471
01:06:01,414 --> 01:06:02,734
Speaker 1: So I was like, Jason's not going to give me

1472
01:06:02,774 --> 01:06:04,843
Speaker 1: a bad person's book. Like just, that's not, he's not

1473
01:06:04,864 --> 01:06:06,264
Speaker 1: going to do that. Cause he might be like, that's

1474
01:06:06,284 --> 01:06:07,544
Speaker 1: a good book, but don't, you don't want that in

1475
01:06:07,564 --> 01:06:09,204
Speaker 1: your house. I was like, this is a good person.

1476
01:06:13,704 --> 01:06:16,784
Speaker 1: And then to like, sort of like online, like suddenly

1477
01:06:16,804 --> 01:06:18,923
Speaker 1: your social media and I'm following you and I'm like,

1478
01:06:19,044 --> 01:06:21,974
Speaker 1: and I'm just like, this is, this is a good person.

1479
01:06:22,554 --> 01:06:25,134
Speaker 1: And then I'm seeing like the cartoon versions of things

1480
01:06:25,574 --> 01:06:28,254
Speaker 1: and how you're, and how you're casting the, the voice

1481
01:06:28,394 --> 01:06:31,934
Speaker 1: actors and how the people are like, oh, okay. There's

1482
01:06:31,994 --> 01:06:38,134
Speaker 1: a way in which you all are being effortlessly inclusive

1483
01:06:39,844 --> 01:06:44,573
Speaker 1: that reads the But it's also not didactic, as we

1484
01:06:44,594 --> 01:06:49,384
Speaker 1: said earlier, that I'm just like, but it's clearly intentional.

1485
01:06:50,144 --> 01:06:52,844
Speaker 1: And it makes a huge difference.

1486
01:06:52,884 --> 01:06:55,024
Speaker 2: Thank you. We're trying to show the world as it is.

1487
01:06:55,144 --> 01:06:56,343
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1488
01:06:56,524 --> 01:06:59,084
Speaker 2: No, I'm sorry. We're not. We're trying to show the

1489
01:06:59,124 --> 01:06:59,943
Speaker 2: world as it should be.

1490
01:07:00,064 --> 01:07:00,494
Speaker 1: There we go.

1491
01:07:01,264 --> 01:07:05,293
Speaker 2: And we're also trying to be very intentional, not just

1492
01:07:06,234 --> 01:07:11,264
Speaker 2: about including everyone front of house, but also back of house. Yeah,

1493
01:07:11,384 --> 01:07:13,823
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that that's a trickier one. Also,

1494
01:07:13,844 --> 01:07:15,724
Speaker 2: when you have a vision and you want to share

1495
01:07:15,784 --> 01:07:18,994
Speaker 2: that vision and then that sharing gets wider. So that's

1496
01:07:19,294 --> 01:07:20,534
Speaker 2: that's also a big part of it.

1497
01:07:20,694 --> 01:07:22,613
Speaker 1: So, yeah, I would say one thing that made me

1498
01:07:22,634 --> 01:07:23,954
Speaker 1: know you were a good person is when I saw

1499
01:07:23,994 --> 01:07:26,854
Speaker 1: that Bobcat Goldthwait had directed one of your shows. And

1500
01:07:26,894 --> 01:07:29,534
Speaker 1: I love Bob, Bobcat. And so I was like, oh,

1501
01:07:29,574 --> 01:07:32,244
Speaker 1: he's a good person. Bobcat Goldthwait does not mess around.

1502
01:07:32,264 --> 01:07:34,524
Speaker 2: That is hilarious that the guy who burned down Arsenio

1503
01:07:34,564 --> 01:07:36,784
Speaker 2: Hall's set is your version.

1504
01:07:37,104 --> 01:07:39,744
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was like, that's, well, also he had matured

1505
01:07:39,784 --> 01:07:40,923
Speaker 1: since then.

1506
01:07:40,964 --> 01:07:41,804
Speaker 2: No, Bobcat's great.

1507
01:07:41,924 --> 01:07:44,664
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I was really just like, that was an indicator.

1508
01:07:45,144 --> 01:07:49,504
Speaker 1: And then the evolution of naked mole rat gets dressed

1509
01:07:49,684 --> 01:07:52,584
Speaker 1: from the book to the, that is a hit movie

1510
01:07:52,604 --> 01:07:54,684
Speaker 1: in our house. Right. And when it was a period

1511
01:07:54,724 --> 01:07:57,124
Speaker 1: of time, you couldn't find it anywhere. And that was

1512
01:07:57,184 --> 01:07:59,423
Speaker 1: a struggle because it would be, it was being asked for.

1513
01:07:59,884 --> 01:08:03,064
Speaker 1: But the way that you, the mole rats became different

1514
01:08:03,184 --> 01:08:07,653
Speaker 1: shades of naked was like, I was like, it was

1515
01:08:07,684 --> 01:08:11,194
Speaker 1: just very appreciated. Especially I think that came out around COVID-y.

1516
01:08:11,854 --> 01:08:12,874
Speaker 2: We were making it during it.

1517
01:08:12,894 --> 01:08:13,154
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1518
01:08:13,354 --> 01:08:13,634
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1519
01:08:13,674 --> 01:08:14,834
Speaker 1: So it was just like, it also was a time

1520
01:08:14,854 --> 01:08:16,974
Speaker 1: when it was like, again, the world as it should be.

1521
01:08:17,394 --> 01:08:20,254
Speaker 1: So I just, I, you know, I'm a member of the,

1522
01:08:20,434 --> 01:08:23,354
Speaker 1: of the Mo Willems and the Cher Willems, uh, Army.

1523
01:08:23,494 --> 01:08:26,384
Speaker 1: I'm a member of the Bruce Lee Army, the Fishbone Army.

1524
01:08:27,784 --> 01:08:30,104
Speaker 1: There's a few. There's a few.

1525
01:08:30,124 --> 01:08:31,244
Speaker 2: You have a lot of service.

1526
01:08:31,364 --> 01:08:35,784
Speaker 1: Hopefully you don't all call it once, but certainly the

1527
01:08:35,824 --> 01:08:39,784
Speaker 1: Willems Army makes me just feel like whatever is needed

1528
01:08:39,844 --> 01:08:41,864
Speaker 1: for me or whatever I can do, it just makes

1529
01:08:41,904 --> 01:08:44,604
Speaker 1: me feel good to know that you are in the

1530
01:08:44,984 --> 01:08:46,754
Speaker 1: world doing this. And the other thing I want to

1531
01:08:46,764 --> 01:08:49,154
Speaker 1: ask you is about, it feels like you guys are

1532
01:08:49,174 --> 01:08:51,714
Speaker 1: independent now. Is that the case? Like as far as

1533
01:08:51,754 --> 01:08:53,514
Speaker 1: like There was a deal with, I mean, I'm not

1534
01:08:53,534 --> 01:08:54,334
Speaker 1: trying to get into business.

1535
01:08:54,354 --> 01:08:57,744
Speaker 2: No, no, we have a, it's a complicated thing, but

1536
01:08:57,884 --> 01:09:01,384
Speaker 2: we are in a larger company, and Cher is the

1537
01:09:01,424 --> 01:09:03,824
Speaker 2: chairman of the board of this company, and we are

1538
01:09:04,344 --> 01:09:08,434
Speaker 2: figuring out how to make the kind of stuff that

1539
01:09:08,474 --> 01:09:10,934
Speaker 2: we want to make at scale, and so a lot

1540
01:09:10,954 --> 01:09:15,224
Speaker 2: of that is about onboarding people that we've known for

1541
01:09:15,244 --> 01:09:17,974
Speaker 2: a while, brand new people, giving opportunities. You know, I

1542
01:09:17,994 --> 01:09:21,434
Speaker 2: was 24 years old when Sesame Street said, do you

1543
01:09:21,474 --> 01:09:24,574
Speaker 2: want to audition to be a writer? And I don't

1544
01:09:24,614 --> 01:09:26,314
Speaker 2: know what they saw in me. I mean, I literally

1545
01:09:26,394 --> 01:09:30,154
Speaker 2: slammed the head writer's head in the doorway at one

1546
01:09:30,234 --> 01:09:32,914
Speaker 2: point because he criticized me and i didn't realize he was.

1547
01:09:32,874 --> 01:09:36,174
Speaker 4: Behind me i didn't know i didn't know what i

1548
01:09:36,234 --> 01:09:39,014
Speaker 4: was doing but somebody took a shot and so we

1549
01:09:39,054 --> 01:09:40,874
Speaker 4: wanted to try and be in a situation where we

1550
01:09:40,894 --> 01:09:44,514
Speaker 4: could we could do something analogous yeah in our small.

1551
01:09:44,314 --> 01:09:48,754
Speaker 1: Way yeah so yeah i just appreciate i appreciate the

1552
01:09:48,974 --> 01:09:51,274
Speaker 1: the effort that is put in and it's clear for

1553
01:09:51,314 --> 01:09:52,654
Speaker 1: those of us who are outside reading these books to

1554
01:09:52,674 --> 01:09:57,004
Speaker 1: our kids um Could you shout out some kids' books

1555
01:09:57,624 --> 01:10:00,724
Speaker 1: that you think people should also connect with that are

1556
01:10:00,784 --> 01:10:01,504
Speaker 1: out there in the world?

1557
01:10:03,084 --> 01:10:04,484
Speaker 2: This is why I'm reluctant to do this.

1558
01:10:04,584 --> 01:10:05,044
Speaker 1: Okay, great.

1559
01:10:05,124 --> 01:10:07,164
Speaker 2: Because I'm always going to miss something.

1560
01:10:07,214 --> 01:10:07,494
Speaker 1: No, no.

1561
01:10:07,544 --> 01:10:10,254
Speaker 2: I'm always going to miss something in somebody. Here's my technique.

1562
01:10:10,434 --> 01:10:10,714
Speaker 1: Okay.

1563
01:10:11,014 --> 01:10:14,114
Speaker 2: Every time I go to a library, I pick out

1564
01:10:14,214 --> 01:10:16,014
Speaker 2: a picture book by someone I've never heard of.

1565
01:10:16,234 --> 01:10:17,454
Speaker 1: Okay.

1566
01:10:17,714 --> 01:10:19,494
Speaker 2: You're going to get five, six, seven books.

1567
01:10:19,534 --> 01:10:19,754
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1568
01:10:20,074 --> 01:10:21,994
Speaker 2: I would hate to do a list and then I

1569
01:10:22,034 --> 01:10:24,314
Speaker 2: forgot something and not do what's right.

1570
01:10:24,664 --> 01:10:26,784
Speaker 1: Yes, I got you. But just, I think the idea

1571
01:10:26,804 --> 01:10:29,823
Speaker 1: of just like always be looking for new. Always, always.

1572
01:10:30,064 --> 01:10:32,794
Speaker 2: And this is why the library is a magic place.

1573
01:10:33,464 --> 01:10:34,394
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good, yeah.

1574
01:10:34,454 --> 01:10:37,653
Speaker 2: It is really, really important. You can take the risk.

1575
01:10:37,754 --> 01:10:38,014
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1576
01:10:38,454 --> 01:10:41,154
Speaker 2: Just get a bunch of books. You're going to discover,

1577
01:10:41,654 --> 01:10:43,434
Speaker 2: you're going to discover you're Mr. Okra.

1578
01:10:43,694 --> 01:10:44,854
Speaker 1: Yeah. Right? Yeah, yeah.

1579
01:10:44,874 --> 01:10:46,294
Speaker 2: I mean, that's how that happened.

1580
01:10:46,394 --> 01:10:50,594
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Right? Yeah. Is the process, do you feel

1581
01:10:50,614 --> 01:10:52,134
Speaker 1: like it is when the world is the way the

1582
01:10:52,154 --> 01:10:56,294
Speaker 1: world is? Does that affect the process of creation?

1583
01:10:56,794 --> 01:10:57,073
Speaker 2: Sure.

1584
01:10:57,514 --> 01:10:57,794
Speaker 1: Okay.

1585
01:10:58,514 --> 01:11:01,894
Speaker 2: Can't. I feel like... I think the thought that I've

1586
01:11:01,934 --> 01:11:09,834
Speaker 2: come to most recently is the idea of universality is

1587
01:11:09,874 --> 01:11:12,734
Speaker 2: an ivory tower idea that I've clung on to for

1588
01:11:12,874 --> 01:11:15,924
Speaker 2: so long. And it is hard to let go of.

1589
01:11:15,944 --> 01:11:24,483
Speaker 2: I do think that we feel... universal things, shame, joy,

1590
01:11:24,644 --> 01:11:32,484
Speaker 2: all of those things. But I also feel that narrative

1591
01:11:33,824 --> 01:11:38,284
Speaker 2: is a way to be seen that's very specific. I've

1592
01:11:38,344 --> 01:11:40,864
Speaker 2: written a few books that are a little bit more didactic,

1593
01:11:41,204 --> 01:11:46,874
Speaker 2: and I don't know that they connect as well. But yeah,

1594
01:11:47,074 --> 01:11:52,304
Speaker 2: I don't... I would love to be immune to interesting times.

1595
01:11:54,644 --> 01:11:57,104
Speaker 1: That is a great way to put that. I would

1596
01:11:57,144 --> 01:11:59,624
Speaker 1: love to be immune to interesting times. That's the first

1597
01:11:59,764 --> 01:12:01,164
Speaker 1: album from Random Ants.

1598
01:12:01,184 --> 01:12:02,704
Speaker 2: That's Random Ants.

1599
01:12:02,744 --> 01:12:03,524
Speaker 1: No, that's our later.

1600
01:12:03,564 --> 01:12:04,924
Speaker 2: That's when they slowed down. Oh, yeah.

1601
01:12:04,944 --> 01:12:07,484
Speaker 1: That's when it got a little experimental. Got a little

1602
01:12:07,504 --> 01:12:10,624
Speaker 1: bit like Sgt. Pepper. A little bit like, okay, guys.

1603
01:12:10,654 --> 01:12:11,714
Speaker 1: Get back to your original.

1604
01:12:11,754 --> 01:12:13,354
Speaker 2: There's definitely Sitar in there.

1605
01:12:13,394 --> 01:12:16,114
Speaker 1: There's definitely Sitar. Definitely somebody who plays a harmonica who's

1606
01:12:16,154 --> 01:12:17,334
Speaker 1: never picked up a harmonica before.

1607
01:12:17,374 --> 01:12:17,514
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1608
01:12:18,654 --> 01:12:22,594
Speaker 1: I ask everybody, my penultimate question is a charity or

1609
01:12:22,634 --> 01:12:25,534
Speaker 1: a foundation or a nonprofit that you think people should

1610
01:12:25,554 --> 01:12:27,494
Speaker 1: know more about that we can have this audience who

1611
01:12:27,514 --> 01:12:28,354
Speaker 1: loves homework support.

1612
01:12:29,174 --> 01:12:32,234
Speaker 3: So we have two categories of things that we really

1613
01:12:32,274 --> 01:12:32,774
Speaker 3: care about.

1614
01:12:32,794 --> 01:12:32,874
Speaker 2: Okay.

1615
01:12:34,934 --> 01:12:35,234
Speaker 1: Food.

1616
01:12:36,314 --> 01:12:39,794
Speaker 3: Making sure that people have food to eat is really

1617
01:12:39,834 --> 01:12:40,334
Speaker 3: my thing.

1618
01:12:40,364 --> 01:12:41,624
Speaker 1: Yep.

1619
01:12:41,644 --> 01:12:43,784
Speaker 3: And your local food pantry.

1620
01:12:44,064 --> 01:12:44,304
Speaker 1: Yes.

1621
01:12:44,844 --> 01:12:46,704
Speaker 3: If you can give them money, they can do whatever.

1622
01:12:47,584 --> 01:12:48,774
Speaker 3: Very efficient things with it.

1623
01:12:49,124 --> 01:12:51,304
Speaker 1: That's what I learned at the Alameda County Food, Alameda

1624
01:12:51,344 --> 01:12:54,484
Speaker 1: County Community Food Bank. They're like, if you give us

1625
01:12:54,544 --> 01:12:56,004
Speaker 1: a can of food that you bought for a dollar,

1626
01:12:56,044 --> 01:12:57,704
Speaker 1: that's great. But if you give us a dollar, we

1627
01:12:57,724 --> 01:12:59,524
Speaker 1: can buy way more cans of food than you can.

1628
01:13:00,024 --> 01:13:02,494
Speaker 2: When we were in Massachusetts, Cher did a lot of

1629
01:13:02,544 --> 01:13:06,454
Speaker 2: work with our local pantry, but also with what we

1630
01:13:06,494 --> 01:13:10,074
Speaker 2: call the mothership. There are larger regional groups that can

1631
01:13:10,134 --> 01:13:14,444
Speaker 2: buy in bulk. The Food Bank of Western Mass, They

1632
01:13:14,464 --> 01:13:16,404
Speaker 2: did amazing work and they got big enough that they

1633
01:13:16,444 --> 01:13:20,154
Speaker 2: were able to build a larger building and hire local

1634
01:13:20,234 --> 01:13:23,434
Speaker 2: people to physically build that building to buy a mess.

1635
01:13:23,454 --> 01:13:26,294
Speaker 2: So I think that your local food pantry, but also

1636
01:13:26,334 --> 01:13:27,334
Speaker 2: that one step up.

1637
01:13:27,774 --> 01:13:30,354
Speaker 3: The other thing is that if you support the food

1638
01:13:30,394 --> 01:13:34,084
Speaker 3: bank that's one step up, you're going to benefit the

1639
01:13:34,124 --> 01:13:37,424
Speaker 3: communities that are near you, but aren't yours.

1640
01:13:37,704 --> 01:13:38,084
Speaker 1: Okay.

1641
01:13:38,144 --> 01:13:40,764
Speaker 3: Because they're the ones that are buying in bulk and

1642
01:13:40,804 --> 01:13:44,304
Speaker 3: they can get that food to- those other sort of

1643
01:13:44,414 --> 01:13:46,154
Speaker 3: last mile places.

1644
01:13:46,834 --> 01:13:46,954
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1645
01:13:46,974 --> 01:13:48,354
Speaker 1: So you have to find the food banks that are

1646
01:13:48,394 --> 01:13:51,114
Speaker 1: like the regional food banks. That's right. Okay.

1647
01:13:51,154 --> 01:13:53,754
Speaker 2: And they're, oh, they're going food bank to small food bank.

1648
01:13:53,814 --> 01:13:54,094
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1649
01:13:54,114 --> 01:13:55,814
Speaker 2: But you want to open up your idea of what

1650
01:13:55,874 --> 01:13:57,624
Speaker 2: a neighbor is. Cause if I'm only going to deal

1651
01:13:57,664 --> 01:14:00,224
Speaker 2: with the people in my area code. Yes.

1652
01:14:00,264 --> 01:14:01,323
Speaker 1: Yeah. There's need.

1653
01:14:01,424 --> 01:14:03,624
Speaker 2: Yeah. But two, three area codes out there.

1654
01:14:03,664 --> 01:14:05,944
Speaker 1: There's maybe more. Yeah. Especially in New York. You don't

1655
01:14:05,964 --> 01:14:07,344
Speaker 1: have to go that far to go to like, there's

1656
01:14:07,404 --> 01:14:08,714
Speaker 1: need right here. Yeah.

1657
01:14:08,754 --> 01:14:09,113
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1658
01:14:09,544 --> 01:14:11,774
Speaker 1: And what was the other thing? You said there's two areas.

1659
01:14:11,794 --> 01:14:14,614
Speaker 2: Well, what, And this, I would just go back to food.

1660
01:14:14,634 --> 01:14:17,764
Speaker 2: When people say, how do you write good picture books?

1661
01:14:17,844 --> 01:14:23,204
Speaker 2: I say, I'm well fed. And if we expect our children,

1662
01:14:23,244 --> 01:14:26,684
Speaker 2: particularly our children who do not have all the resources

1663
01:14:27,404 --> 01:14:30,804
Speaker 2: to be their best, they can't be their best hungry.

1664
01:14:31,164 --> 01:14:31,604
Speaker 1: For sure.

1665
01:14:32,044 --> 01:14:37,554
Speaker 2: I can't be less than a horrendous human being without

1666
01:14:37,974 --> 01:14:38,914
Speaker 2: regular snacking.

1667
01:14:39,114 --> 01:14:41,734
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's, that's, that's me. That's me. Yeah.

1668
01:14:42,264 --> 01:14:45,304
Speaker 2: The other one is books. And so I think in food,

1669
01:14:45,344 --> 01:14:48,004
Speaker 2: we're able to do maybe more good for less people.

1670
01:14:48,464 --> 01:14:50,574
Speaker 2: And getting books out there, we can do less good

1671
01:14:50,614 --> 01:14:54,594
Speaker 2: for more people. Recently, the last couple of years, most

1672
01:14:54,634 --> 01:14:58,074
Speaker 2: of our public donations have been with DonorsChoose.

1673
01:14:58,814 --> 01:15:00,544
Speaker 1: I'm aware of that. And we've been.

1674
01:15:00,284 --> 01:15:03,244
Speaker 2: Finding that to be really great.

1675
01:15:04,584 --> 01:15:04,884
Speaker 3: I hate.

1676
01:15:06,524 --> 01:15:12,384
Speaker 2: The idea that we live in a culture that demands philanthropy.

1677
01:15:12,404 --> 01:15:15,214
Speaker 2: And if you want to talk about the world as

1678
01:15:15,264 --> 01:15:18,174
Speaker 2: it should be, the world as it should be should.

1679
01:15:18,014 --> 01:15:21,154
Speaker 1: Have no philanthropy. Yes, 100%.

1680
01:15:21,154 --> 01:15:23,134
Speaker 2: Not the world as it should be should have people

1681
01:15:23,214 --> 01:15:24,254
Speaker 2: not being philanthropic.

1682
01:15:24,454 --> 01:15:26,554
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1683
01:15:26,574 --> 01:15:27,494
Speaker 2: That's a different thing.

1684
01:15:27,534 --> 01:15:29,274
Speaker 1: The way that Charles Best from Donor's Shoes, who's the

1685
01:15:29,314 --> 01:15:31,524
Speaker 1: founder of Donor's Shoes, who's now on the board and

1686
01:15:31,544 --> 01:15:33,264
Speaker 1: has moved on to another company, but he says, like,

1687
01:15:33,644 --> 01:15:37,234
Speaker 1: Donor's Shoes should exist because but it should be for

1688
01:15:37,254 --> 01:15:41,764
Speaker 1: the real extra things. Like we want to go to Washington, D.C.

1689
01:15:42,684 --> 01:15:46,224
Speaker 1: or we need another tuba. Not for like snacks and

1690
01:15:46,284 --> 01:15:48,684
Speaker 1: hygiene and books. classroom materials.

1691
01:15:48,704 --> 01:15:51,144
Speaker 2: We need another tuba foundation. If we got to that,

1692
01:15:51,204 --> 01:15:53,344
Speaker 2: that would be great.

1693
01:15:53,384 --> 01:15:56,224
Speaker 1: For just the cost of a cup of coffee, we

1694
01:15:56,264 --> 01:16:01,394
Speaker 1: can get every classroom in America a tuba in every pot. Exactly.

1695
01:16:01,414 --> 01:16:05,074
Speaker 1: We need another tuba. That's the EP from Random Ants.

1696
01:16:05,094 --> 01:16:07,654
Speaker 1: We need another tuba foundation. That's the EP. Or maybe

1697
01:16:07,674 --> 01:16:09,534
Speaker 1: that's the band that opens for Random Ants. I'll figure

1698
01:16:09,554 --> 01:16:12,334
Speaker 1: it out. We'll put a flyer together. My last question,

1699
01:16:12,394 --> 01:16:14,294
Speaker 1: and I never get to ask two people. The podcast

1700
01:16:14,334 --> 01:16:16,454
Speaker 1: is called Who's With Me. Are you two with me?

1701
01:16:16,454 --> 01:16:17,874
Speaker 2: 100%.

1702
01:16:17,874 --> 01:16:19,914
Speaker 1: Thank you. I'll get back to you. Okay, fair, fair.

1703
01:16:20,134 --> 01:16:21,974
Speaker 1: It's fair, it's fair. Well, you got my number. I

1704
01:16:22,574 --> 01:16:24,934
Speaker 1: got your number. You got my email address.

1705
01:16:24,994 --> 01:16:30,254
Speaker 2: Don't stay up late. Of course, Sam. Look, I love

1706
01:16:30,394 --> 01:16:33,834
Speaker 2: your randomness. I love what you're doing. I love the

1707
01:16:33,874 --> 01:16:38,314
Speaker 2: lane that you have created. I love how generous you

1708
01:16:38,414 --> 01:16:41,334
Speaker 2: are with people in different lanes. And I think that

1709
01:16:41,434 --> 01:16:44,374
Speaker 2: that also, this is a hard time to be generous.

1710
01:16:45,614 --> 01:16:49,974
Speaker 2: And therefore, generosity is, Is more powerful.

1711
01:16:51,414 --> 01:16:54,394
Speaker 1: I appreciate that. I, you know, I feel whatever this

1712
01:16:54,454 --> 01:16:55,974
Speaker 1: lane is. And that's what I said. This whole, this

1713
01:16:56,034 --> 01:16:58,414
Speaker 1: whole podcast here was me like, okay, I'm just going

1714
01:16:58,434 --> 01:17:00,494
Speaker 1: to head over there and do what I do. It's funny.

1715
01:17:00,514 --> 01:17:03,384
Speaker 1: You said earlier, like standup comedy, children's books, podcasts is

1716
01:17:03,424 --> 01:17:05,544
Speaker 1: more expensive than those things, but it is another area

1717
01:17:05,564 --> 01:17:07,004
Speaker 1: where you can just sort of go do your own thing.

1718
01:17:07,044 --> 01:17:07,363
Speaker 2: Right.

1719
01:17:07,604 --> 01:17:10,024
Speaker 1: And just like, thankfully these people are over here helping

1720
01:17:10,064 --> 01:17:10,884
Speaker 1: me stay on track.

1721
01:17:11,494 --> 01:17:14,734
Speaker 2: You guys come sit on the chair. Come on, come

1722
01:17:14,814 --> 01:17:17,154
Speaker 2: sit on Carl's lap. He's got a big lap. Come on,

1723
01:17:17,194 --> 01:17:18,074
Speaker 2: both of you, both of you.

1724
01:17:19,074 --> 01:17:19,574
Speaker 3: No, it is.

1725
01:17:19,614 --> 01:17:20,454
Speaker 2: Come on, come on, come on.

1726
01:17:20,454 --> 01:17:21,054
Speaker 1: I think he's insisting.

1727
01:17:21,094 --> 01:17:22,474
Speaker 2: If he's going to give you props, you've got to

1728
01:17:22,494 --> 01:17:23,044
Speaker 2: take it.

1729
01:17:23,094 --> 01:17:23,914
Speaker 1: I think he's insisting.

1730
01:17:23,944 --> 01:17:24,904
Speaker 2: Come on, I'm insisting.

1731
01:17:24,944 --> 01:17:27,604
Speaker 1: He's insisting. Come on in, come on in. Sebastian's like,

1732
01:17:28,024 --> 01:17:31,554
Speaker 1: I don't want it. One of us.

1733
01:17:31,584 --> 01:17:31,934
Speaker 2: One of us.

1734
01:17:31,984 --> 01:17:32,344
Speaker 1: Right?

1735
01:17:32,684 --> 01:17:36,504
Speaker 2: And here's the larger thing. Nobody does it alone. Here's

1736
01:17:36,544 --> 01:17:39,784
Speaker 2: the point, nobody does it alone. So thank you guys,

1737
01:17:39,884 --> 01:17:42,064
Speaker 2: I appreciate it.

1738
01:17:42,244 --> 01:17:45,344
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're blocking my shot. We've talked about this, don't

1739
01:17:45,364 --> 01:17:47,884
Speaker 1: block my shot. You can come over, but don't block

1740
01:17:47,924 --> 01:17:49,524
Speaker 1: my shot. I feel like we have this talk all

1741
01:17:49,544 --> 01:17:52,984
Speaker 1: the time. I also wanna say, these are community people

1742
01:17:53,004 --> 01:17:55,364
Speaker 1: that I only met a few weeks ago, and I

1743
01:17:55,384 --> 01:17:58,324
Speaker 1: already feel like are allowing me to be my weird,

1744
01:17:58,344 --> 01:17:59,964
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be over here self, so thanks.

1745
01:18:00,124 --> 01:18:01,444
Speaker 2: It's beautiful, it's great.

1746
01:18:01,464 --> 01:18:05,144
Speaker 1: I always feel like everybody thinks I'm weird, Well, they're right.

1747
01:18:05,444 --> 01:18:09,264
Speaker 2: And that's good. But this moment, one thing that I

1748
01:18:09,304 --> 01:18:11,244
Speaker 2: learned for years and years in comedy, you're always told,

1749
01:18:11,284 --> 01:18:12,944
Speaker 2: don't write on the nose. Don't write on the nose.

1750
01:18:13,384 --> 01:18:17,404
Speaker 2: And I think, I disagree. Write on the nose sparingly

1751
01:18:17,844 --> 01:18:18,613
Speaker 2: and when you mean it.

1752
01:18:18,864 --> 01:18:20,064
Speaker 1: Yes. Yeah.

1753
01:18:21,304 --> 01:18:24,664
Speaker 2: There you go. You guys have lovely noses. Thank you.

1754
01:18:24,704 --> 01:18:28,464
Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

1755
01:18:28,504 --> 01:18:29,944
Speaker 1: It was a pleasure. I mean, I knew this episode

1756
01:18:29,964 --> 01:18:32,044
Speaker 1: would be a special one. I didn't know how unique

1757
01:18:32,064 --> 01:18:33,344
Speaker 1: it was going to be, but It makes me feel

1758
01:18:33,374 --> 01:18:37,414
Speaker 1: like I was in a piece of Willem's art. Yes, yes.

1759
01:18:37,454 --> 01:18:39,614
Speaker 1: I feel like we just made a doodle. Who's with

1760
01:18:39,634 --> 01:18:39,994
Speaker 1: the doodle?

1761
01:18:40,054 --> 01:18:43,114
Speaker 2: It is a doodle. And the last thing. Yeah. There

1762
01:18:43,134 --> 01:18:45,474
Speaker 2: are no such things as a wrong doodle. Anyone can doodle.

1763
01:18:45,854 --> 01:18:49,014
Speaker 2: A drawing is made with an intention. A doodle has

1764
01:18:49,114 --> 01:18:53,614
Speaker 2: no intention. And that's what's great about it. So you're

1765
01:18:53,794 --> 01:18:55,414
Speaker 2: open to whatever this creativity is.

1766
01:18:55,414 --> 01:18:56,874
Speaker 1: Whatever, like, Cher, you come over here.

1767
01:18:56,894 --> 01:18:57,774
Speaker 2: Yeah, whatever.

1768
01:18:57,794 --> 01:19:01,474
Speaker 1: These are all doodles. We're all human doodlings. Yeah. doodles.

1769
01:19:01,754 --> 01:19:03,744
Speaker 1: There we go. I keep thinking of albums for random answer.

1770
01:19:03,824 --> 01:19:04,464
Speaker 1: All right, thank you.

1771
01:19:04,644 --> 01:19:05,064
Speaker 2: Take care.

1772
01:19:05,084 --> 01:19:10,804
Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you for listening to Who's With Me. Again,

1773
01:19:10,844 --> 01:19:13,164
Speaker 1: the podcast that is based on my Substack. Please feel

1774
01:19:13,184 --> 01:19:15,424
Speaker 1: free to go to Substack, look up Who's With Me,

1775
01:19:15,544 --> 01:19:18,934
Speaker 1: subscribe to my Substack. Thanks to Moe and Cher Willems. Again,

1776
01:19:18,974 --> 01:19:20,704
Speaker 1: such a beautiful episode to have the two of them

1777
01:19:20,744 --> 01:19:24,684
Speaker 1: sitting down and talking about how they work together. Mo

1778
01:19:24,764 --> 01:19:27,704
Speaker 1: going deep into his artistic process and his craft. I

1779
01:19:27,724 --> 01:19:29,264
Speaker 1: think we don't talk about craft enough when we talk

1780
01:19:29,284 --> 01:19:33,073
Speaker 1: about great artists. And Cher really, it was just so

1781
01:19:33,124 --> 01:19:34,754
Speaker 1: clear when you sit there and watch them talk to

1782
01:19:34,774 --> 01:19:36,814
Speaker 1: each other. If you listen to them, they are like,

1783
01:19:37,134 --> 01:19:40,314
Speaker 1: that's couples goals, Mo and Cher Willems. And they've been

1784
01:19:40,354 --> 01:19:41,974
Speaker 1: couples for a while now. So it's nice to know

1785
01:19:41,994 --> 01:19:43,894
Speaker 1: you can still be couples goals when you've been at

1786
01:19:43,914 --> 01:19:46,334
Speaker 1: it for a while. I'm not saying they're old. I'm

1787
01:19:46,364 --> 01:19:49,564
Speaker 1: just saying they've been together forever. They have an adult child.

1788
01:19:49,604 --> 01:19:52,764
Speaker 1: That's all I'm trying to say. Again, pre-order their upcoming book,

1789
01:19:52,864 --> 01:19:56,784
Speaker 1: We Really Like Cooking Slop. Links in the notes. Also

1790
01:19:56,804 --> 01:20:01,564
Speaker 1: pre-order my new children's book with Adam Mansbach and Brianna Chambers, Rock, Paper, Scissors, Cheese.

1791
01:20:01,864 --> 01:20:04,744
Speaker 1: Their book comes out September 29th. My book comes out

1792
01:20:04,864 --> 01:20:10,514
Speaker 1: October 27th. Also check out the Mo Willems YouTube channel.

1793
01:20:10,534 --> 01:20:12,614
Speaker 1: It's called the Hidden Pigeon Channel. It's got a lot

1794
01:20:12,634 --> 01:20:14,994
Speaker 1: of great content for kids, a lot of great Mo Willems.

1795
01:20:15,434 --> 01:20:17,954
Speaker 1: All the characters from the books are in there. Check

1796
01:20:17,994 --> 01:20:19,644
Speaker 1: it out. All links will be in the show notes.

1797
01:20:20,184 --> 01:20:22,314
Speaker 1: And again, shout out to the causes they promoted, the

1798
01:20:22,434 --> 01:20:24,794
Speaker 1: Food Bank of Western Massachusetts where they used to live.

1799
01:20:25,194 --> 01:20:27,094
Speaker 1: And I would just say if you're not in Western Massachusetts,

1800
01:20:27,114 --> 01:20:29,934
Speaker 1: you can also just go to feedingamerica.org and you can

1801
01:20:29,974 --> 01:20:32,704
Speaker 1: find out where the local food banks are in your area,

1802
01:20:33,084 --> 01:20:35,044
Speaker 1: in your city, and also in your county and your region.

1803
01:20:35,384 --> 01:20:38,104
Speaker 1: Here where I live in Oakland, we have the Alameda

1804
01:20:38,244 --> 01:20:41,884
Speaker 1: County Food Bank. Alameda County Community Food Bank. I think

1805
01:20:41,924 --> 01:20:44,444
Speaker 1: that's what it is. I always miss one of the C's. So, yeah.

1806
01:20:44,664 --> 01:20:47,294
Speaker 1: And also, they advocated for DonorsChoose, which, of course, I'm

1807
01:20:47,304 --> 01:20:49,834
Speaker 1: a big advocate for DonorsChoose on the board of DonorsChoose.

1808
01:20:51,054 --> 01:20:53,514
Speaker 1: You know, we'll drop a DonorsChoose project down in there

1809
01:20:53,534 --> 01:20:55,994
Speaker 1: in the show notes so you guys can support some

1810
01:20:56,014 --> 01:21:01,094
Speaker 1: DonorsChoose projects. Again, thanks to Rambergren Productions. Thanks to Pushkin

1811
01:21:01,164 --> 01:21:04,104
Speaker 1: Industries and to Who Knows Best Productions, which is this guy.

1812
01:21:04,424 --> 01:21:06,644
Speaker 1: Thanks to Raging Machine for being a band. I'm wearing

1813
01:21:06,684 --> 01:21:09,944
Speaker 1: their sweatshirt today. And special thanks to Chris Dowd from

1814
01:21:10,064 --> 01:21:15,504
Speaker 1: Fishbone for the theme song. And again, this week, do

1815
01:21:15,544 --> 01:21:18,644
Speaker 1: something good for yourself, for your community, and for the world.