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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, Saga and Crystal here.

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Speaker 2: Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election,

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Speaker 2: and we are so excited about what that means for

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Speaker 2: the future of this show.

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Speaker 1: This is the only place where you can find honest

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Speaker 2: So if that is something that's important to you, please

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Speaker 2: go to Breakingpoints dot com. Become a member today and

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Speaker 1: We need your help to build the future of independent

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Speaker 1: news media and we hope to see you at Breakingpoints

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Speaker 1: dot com.

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Speaker 2: All right, well, shall we turn to the Democrats and

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Speaker 2: what's going on with them? So you guys will probably

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Speaker 2: remember there was a significant race for a leadership fight

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Speaker 2: in the House between AOC who wanted to be ranking

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Speaker 2: member on the Oversight Committee, which basically it's a very

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Speaker 2: public facing role. It was a good fit for her

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Speaker 2: because she understands the media, she's feisty, she does well

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Speaker 2: in these committee hearings, etc. So she'd be in this

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Speaker 2: prominent forward facing role in the Democratic Party. Nancy Pelosi

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Speaker 2: intervened and instead got her man Jerry Connolly to across

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Speaker 2: the finish line to be ranking member of this committee. Now,

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Speaker 2: it was known at the time that Jerry Connolly is

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Speaker 2: he's in his seventies and he also is suffering from

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Speaker 2: cancer and apparently that you know, the cancer prognosis has

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Speaker 2: just recently gotten worse. So he is now saying he's

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Speaker 2: stepping away from that role as ranking member of Oversight

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Speaker 2: that he had just won over AOC. Let's put this

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Speaker 2: up on the screen. This is his official statement. Jerry Connelly,

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Speaker 2: by the way, I've met him before a number of times.

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Speaker 2: He represents a northern Virginia suburban like Fairfax County District

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Speaker 2: in Virginia and has for a while. He used to

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Speaker 2: be the head of the Board of Supervisors in Fairbacks County,

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Speaker 2: so long time public official. Anyway, he says to your friends,

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Speaker 2: I want to begin by thanking you for your good

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Speaker 2: wishes and compassion as I continue to tackle my diagnosis.

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Speaker 2: Your outpouring of love and support has given me strength

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Speaker 2: in my fights both against cancer and our collective defensive

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Speaker 2: democracynnounced my diagnosis six months ago. I promised transparency. After

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Speaker 2: grueling treatments, we've learned the cancer which was initially beaten back,

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Speaker 2: has now returned. I'll do everything possible to continue to

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Speaker 2: represent you and thank you for your grace. The sun

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Speaker 2: is setting on my time in public service. This will

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Speaker 2: be my last term in Congress. I will be stepping

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Speaker 2: back as ranking member of the Oversight Committee soon with

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Speaker 2: no rancor, in a full heart, I'm move into this

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Speaker 2: final chapter full of pride in what we've accomplished together

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Speaker 2: over thirty years. My loving family and staff sustain me,

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Speaker 2: my extended family. You all have been a joy to serve,

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Speaker 2: your friend and public servant, and you know I don't

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Speaker 2: want to be an asshole here. I've met, like I said,

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Speaker 2: I met Jerry Connolly, you know, interpersonally, very nice person.

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Speaker 2: But if you truly believe yourself to be which I do,

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Speaker 2: in this existential threat for the future of the country

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Speaker 2: and democracy, you need to put your most effective players forward.

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Speaker 2: And it was always very clear that that would not

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Speaker 2: be Jerry Connell at seventy years old in battling cancer.

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Speaker 2: It would be someone like AOC who is leading the

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Speaker 2: fight and is out there, you know, touring the country

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Speaker 2: alongside Bernie Sanders and garnering record breaking crowds. And understands

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Speaker 2: new media, et cetera. And so here we are four

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Speaker 2: months into the Trump administration and he's already having to

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Speaker 2: step back emily from this role whatsoever. In terms of

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Speaker 2: the who's going to be the replacement, it's not going

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Speaker 2: to be AOC. She is no longer actually on this committee.

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Speaker 2: She I guess got switched or booth committees or whatever.

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Speaker 2: Can put Ken Klippenstein, who's been all over this from

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Speaker 2: the very beginning, put the information to.

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Speaker 3: Say the very least about Ken.

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Speaker 4: I tried.

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Speaker 2: I tried to book Ken for us today, but he's

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Speaker 2: like traveling right now and is just like killing him

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Speaker 2: because yeah, all over this other beginning.

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Speaker 4: But anyway, put this next piece up on the screen.

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Speaker 2: This is who looks to be set to replace him,

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Speaker 2: another seventy year old representative, Stephen Lynch. Ken goes on

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Speaker 2: to say his background is colorful. Lynch was apparently arrested

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Speaker 2: some point for drunkenly attacking a group of Iranian students

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Speaker 2: protesting US intervention abroad. There are some other members on

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Speaker 2: this committee who could have been interesting. Rocana is on

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Speaker 2: this committee. Jasmine Crockett is also on this committee. So

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Speaker 2: you don't have to go with another seventy year old,

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Speaker 2: but yet here they are just like this is the

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Speaker 2: guy who's next in line seniority or leadership can rely

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Speaker 2: on them or whatever. And it's absolutely incredible. I mean,

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Speaker 2: Democrats have had multiple members die in office this session,

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Speaker 2: which have led Republicans to you know, expand their margins

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Speaker 2: by a little bit, and that little bit can make

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Speaker 2: all the difference in terms of, you know, getting close

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Speaker 2: legislation through the House.

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Speaker 5: I'm so there's no committee that Democrats would should have

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Speaker 5: wanted a like very aware and healthy person on more

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Speaker 5: than oversight for the first one hundred days of the

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Speaker 5: second Trump administration. Like, I am furious on behalf of

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Speaker 5: Democratic voters just thinking back on how insane was like

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Speaker 5: this is a concession that everyone who was concerned about

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Speaker 5: Connolly getting this position was correct. This is him basically

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Speaker 5: throwing in the towel and saying I'm not up to

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Speaker 5: the job. Well, if you had had the humility and

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Speaker 5: your supporters had had the humility to say that one

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Speaker 5: hundred days ago, the Oversight Committee could have been much

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Speaker 5: more robustly energetically pushing back on the Trump administration. It

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Speaker 5: is just completely it's you know, all of this is obvious,

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Speaker 5: what we're saying right now, but it is such a

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Speaker 5: just obnoxious example of how wrong the old guard is,

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Speaker 5: and how stubborn the old guard is, and how stuck

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Speaker 5: in their way as the old guard is, and just.

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Speaker 3: How not up to the moment they are.

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Speaker 5: It's just the sort of arrogance of the political class

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Speaker 5: just being I think, you know, to some extent here

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Speaker 5: put on full display and again predictable and obvious. But

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Speaker 5: the Oversight Committee is doing exactly what it says, like

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Speaker 5: they have powers to call witnesses, like when Republicans were

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Speaker 5: in the minority recently under Biden, the Oversight Committee, the

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Speaker 5: Oversight Committee is where they felt they were doing their

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Speaker 5: most important work. And it's because you can then call

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Speaker 5: hearings and do Hunter Biden and Benghazi and all of

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Speaker 5: those things come out of oversight.

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Speaker 3: It's very powerful if you use it correctly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I remember when he won this or was

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Speaker 2: going for this position at the time, which I could

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Speaker 2: remember the exact language that he used, but he said

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Speaker 2: something like like I've waited a long time for this.

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Speaker 2: It was very like I did my time. I'm next

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Speaker 2: in line, so I'm getting this seat. And Nancy Pelosi

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Speaker 2: made sure that he had the votes to be able

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Speaker 2: to and again, like we all knew this was the reality.

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Speaker 2: They knew this was the reality. This was utterly predictable.

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Speaker 2: And so not only was it really you know, self

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Speaker 2: serving for Jerry Connelly even to put himself up for

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Speaker 2: this position is extraordinarily you know, extraordinarily short sighted and

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Speaker 2: weak move from Democratic leadership to push him for this

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Speaker 2: spot and just speaks to a lack of seriousness and

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Speaker 2: a lack of meeting the moment that has been characteristic

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Speaker 2: across the board from the official Democratic leadership. And buydo

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Speaker 2: have another example of that Senator Schumer, who of course,

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Speaker 2: you know, capitulated the Republicans the one thing that where

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Speaker 2: Democrats in the Senate really had some leverage. He completely

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Speaker 2: you know, hands Republicans major victory there. Now he's on

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Speaker 2: CNN saying that don't worry, he's in the fight. He

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Speaker 2: has sent the Trump administration a strongly worded letter, Emily,

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Speaker 2: so he will await their response. Let's take a listen

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Speaker 2: to what he had to say.

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Speaker 6: But it's also going to hurt the kind of medical

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Speaker 6: research and other kinds of great research that has done

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Speaker 6: at Harvard and other universities. So we sent him a

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Speaker 6: very strong letter just the other day, tail asking eight

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Speaker 6: very strong questions about why this isn't just a pretext.

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Speaker 3: Well, you'll let us know if you get a response

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Speaker 3: to that letter.

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Speaker 5: I do want to say, I love yeah, seven not

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Speaker 5: seven strongly worded questions.

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Speaker 2: Eight strong, very strong, very strong questions.

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Speaker 4: He said, I love that.

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Speaker 2: Dana's like, okay, you let me know when they get

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Speaker 2: back to you on that one, sure, buddy, Like, it's

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Speaker 2: just you can't make it up.

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Speaker 4: It's so pathetic. It is so utterly pathetic.

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Speaker 5: It's insane that he was on live television and thought

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Speaker 5: that was a good thing to say, Like, are you

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Speaker 5: listening to yourself? You know that you were stepping straight

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Speaker 5: into a joke, buddy. This is the minority, this is

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Speaker 5: the head of Democrats for how many years and he

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Speaker 5: can't even get through an interview without.

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Speaker 3: Saying something as stupid as that. I mean, it's come on.

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Speaker 2: Man, I miss Harry Reid. That's what I got to

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Speaker 2: say about that. I miss Harry Reid. He would never, No,

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Speaker 2: he would never. Meanwhile, you've got you know, they're they're

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Speaker 2: just the again the leadership. They are just thrashing around

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Speaker 2: trying to figure out where to be, what to say.

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Speaker 2: They've recognized at this point that the base wants them

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Speaker 2: to do more, so you know, their response is things

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Speaker 2: like Senator Schumer sending eight strong questions and a strongly

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Speaker 2: worded letter, and then Hakeem Jeffries and Corey Booker did

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Speaker 2: some sort of a like live showlong else on the

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Speaker 2: capital steps, which everything it's just, you know, it's.

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Speaker 4: Just a little odd.

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Speaker 2: I will say that the Corey Booker speech, it didn't

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Speaker 2: really it really didn't do it for me because of

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Speaker 2: a variety. You know, it wasn't really about anything, and

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Speaker 2: you know, it's felt to me very performative, although impressive,

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Speaker 2: like listen, to hold your bladder that long is extraordinary,

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Speaker 2: if in fact that's true. Just to speak for that long,

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Speaker 2: I can't even imagine. But I have to say, liberals

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Speaker 2: ate that shit up. They loved it, They absolutely loved it.

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Speaker 2: They see him as a hero, and this shows you,

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Speaker 2: like the bar is not that high. They just want

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Speaker 2: people to do something, even I thought something was just

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Speaker 2: like standing and talking for a while, right.

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Speaker 5: Because that's a great that's a great point, because that

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Speaker 5: philibuster didn't have any legislative goal. Like literally, they just

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Speaker 5: were lapping up Corey Booker demonstrating how like passionately he

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Speaker 5: was anti Trump and anti this administration. And it was

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Speaker 5: actually smart because he was like live on TikTok and

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Speaker 5: breaking records and it, you know, as I think vapid

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Speaker 5: as it was, it just rallied the troops because people

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Speaker 5: are desperate.

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Speaker 4: Yeah that's right.

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Speaker 2: But in any case, it came Jeffrey's Corey Booker, do

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Speaker 2: this hangout live stream thing on the Capitol steps. Let

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Speaker 2: me give you just just just a little taste of

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Speaker 2: it them like just a little taste, And.

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Speaker 7: I worked you all to know, I miss Obama, I

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Speaker 7: miss Obama.

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Speaker 8: I miss Obama, I miss Obama.

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Speaker 9: And I miss I miss her husband too.

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Speaker 7: We'll be pushing back against the Republican efforts to jam

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Speaker 7: this far right, extreme budget down the throats of the

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Speaker 7: American people, and we wanted to make sure that heading

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Speaker 7: into that fight, we were very clear with our Republican colleagues,

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Speaker 7: there will not be a single Democratic vote to take

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Speaker 7: away the healthcare of the American people.

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Speaker 9: Not a sing law.

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Speaker 2: Don't worry, Emily, the spirit of Barack Obama is alive

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Speaker 2: and well in the fake ass speech cadence of people

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Speaker 2: like Pete Boodaget and Corey Booker. So never fear. It

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Speaker 2: just feels so try hard, you know. It just feels

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Speaker 2: very like we're going to be cool, We're going to

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Speaker 2: do a thing. Here, we are doing a thing.

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Speaker 4: I don't know. It just lands weird.

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Speaker 5: And Hakim Jeffries is clearly his staff has clearly made

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Speaker 5: a considered effort in the last couple of weeks to

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Speaker 5: make sure that he does media mostly out of a suit.

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Speaker 5: So like now they're putting him in a baseball cap

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Speaker 5: and T shirts and his like sneakers. It's just so like,

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Speaker 5: I'm casual every man, Like I'm just you know, your friend.

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Speaker 5: It's very to your point try hard. When it's so sudden,

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Speaker 5: it looks just cringe and it's again We've we talked

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Speaker 5: about this recently, but it's so strange for me because

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Speaker 5: this used to be even like younger Republicans how they

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Speaker 5: came across. And I'm not saying Republicans are like hip

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Speaker 5: and spry either, because they're not. But it used to

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Speaker 5: not be like this for Democrats, Like it used to

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Speaker 5: be a lot easier for them, especially in the Obama era,

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Speaker 5: to come across as normal human beings. But they're so

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Speaker 5: they're overthinking it so much because they're so thrown off

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Speaker 5: by like the youth shift and working class Hispanic voters,

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Speaker 5: some changes in the black electorate, so it's just hard

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Speaker 5: for them to figure out what they should do and

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Speaker 5: they haven't landed on anything, so it ends up looking

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Speaker 5: really awkward and there's no sign of that, you know,

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Speaker 5: there's no sign of the light being at the end

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Speaker 5: of that tunnel at all.

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Speaker 2: And some of them, I mean, they're just so many

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Speaker 2: of them are just like old and kind of lost

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Speaker 2: at sea in the world of like the new social media.

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Speaker 2: Like they be like I should be doing a thing,

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Speaker 2: but I don't really know what that thing is. And

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Speaker 2: so much of this too, is like just stop trying

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Speaker 2: to be something you're not. Like Kim Jeffries. You're never

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Speaker 2: going to be a firebrand. You're never going to be that.

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Speaker 4: Like super relatable, cool guy. That's just not who you are.

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Speaker 2: I mean, look to go back to the Canada Black

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Speaker 2: Mark Carney is like the ultimate technocrat and he just

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Speaker 2: leans into it and people are like, Okay, that's who

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Speaker 2: he is, you know, I mean Bernie Sanders, like, he's

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Speaker 2: not out there trying to do a thing.

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Speaker 4: He just is himself. That's that's it.

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Speaker 2: That's just stop trying so hard. On the other hand,

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Speaker 2: I'd be remiss if I didn't say Chuck Schumer's strategy,

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Speaker 2: I just basically like, wait around and let the Republicans

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Speaker 2: hang themselves is kind of panning out. Not only have

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Speaker 2: we covered extensively Trump's numbers at one hundred days, obviously

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Speaker 2: they're really bad across the board. Even his best issue

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Speaker 2: of immigration, he's now underwater, especially when you ask about

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Speaker 2: specifics foreign policy, but most importantly, his economic numbers have

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Speaker 2: fallen off a cliff, and predictably that is having a

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Speaker 2: major impact on the down ballot races. I think Republicans

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Speaker 2: just basically expect to lose the House at this point.

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Speaker 2: It's almost like a foregone conclusion, given that we're nowhere

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Speaker 2: near out of the woods with regard to the economic

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Speaker 2: pain either. Harry Enton just did a piece on the

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Speaker 2: unpopularity of the Republican Party and how it may translate

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Speaker 2: to midterm losses. Let's go ahead and take a listen

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Speaker 2: to that.

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Speaker 10: Democrats versus Republicans. We have three polls out within the

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Speaker 10: last few weeks.

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Speaker 8: What do they all show?

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Speaker 10: They all show the Democrats up by two points in

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Speaker 10: the CNBC poll, the Fox News poll that was out

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Speaker 10: on Friday.

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Speaker 8: Look at that, Democrats up by seven.

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Speaker 10: The New York Times poll that was out this Friday

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Speaker 10: as well, Democrats by three.

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Speaker 8: And keep in mind the House.

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Speaker 10: GOP won the popular vote back in twenty twenty four

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Speaker 10: by a little less than three percentage points. So when

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Speaker 10: you see three seven to two averaging four, that is

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Speaker 10: a tremendous shift. That is a shift of seven points

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Speaker 10: from the November twenty twenty four elections away from the GOP.

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Speaker 10: You look at Trump's net federal rating in October of

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Speaker 10: twenty twenty four coin in the New York Times those

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Speaker 10: minus nine points. Look at where it is now minus

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Speaker 10: thirty points among independence That's horrific, that's historically awful. Take

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Speaker 10: a look at the generic ballot in October of twenty

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Speaker 10: twenty four. The Democrats were ahead, but only by three,

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Speaker 10: well within the margin of our Look at where they.

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Speaker 8: Are now, up seventeen points.

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Speaker 10: There is no way on God's green Earth that the

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Speaker 10: Republicans can hold on to the House of Representatives. If

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Speaker 10: they lose independence by seventeen percentage points.

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Speaker 8: My goodness, gracious.

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Speaker 4: What do you think about that?

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Speaker 5: M I mean like, this is despite Democrats' best efforts,

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Speaker 5: I think, And that's part of this is interesting too.

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Speaker 5: Did you see Alyssa slock and dropping like F bombs recently?

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Speaker 5: Did you see the stories about that?

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Speaker 4: I did not see that.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, The Hill had a whole story yesterday about how

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Speaker 5: Dems are like embracing the F word.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god.

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Speaker 5: I feel like that happens every time a political party

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Speaker 5: gets a little bit besperate. But you know, it reminded

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Speaker 5: me of the Hakim Jeffrey's Corey Booker like just sitting

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Speaker 5: on the steps chatting with people moment.

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Speaker 3: Because it's like, you.

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Speaker 5: Guys, what's working right now is Bernie Sanders and Alexandria

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Speaker 5: Acosio Cortez going to Red States and holding fighting oligarchy,

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Speaker 5: fighting oligarchy rallies, Not Alissa Slockin, you know, thinking that

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Speaker 5: she's like a cool mom for dropping F bombs in

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Speaker 5: an interview, like forcing herself to drop an F bomb

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Speaker 5: in an interview.

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Speaker 3: It GE's just so bizarre.

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Speaker 5: But I think the reason they're doing it, Crystal, is

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Speaker 5: because they like Hakim Jefferys and Corey Booker can't go

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Speaker 5: full quote fight oligarchy. This is there and that's, by

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Speaker 5: the way, what's good for the party. Uh, what's good

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Speaker 5: for them would be to embrace this anti oligarch message.

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Speaker 5: But because they are also bankrolled by oligarchs, they're uncomfortable

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Speaker 5: with that messaging. And that's why Alyssa Slockin is now

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Speaker 5: explicitly pushing back against it. And I think it's why

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Speaker 5: Hakim Jeffries and Corey Booker maybe they clear the very

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Speaker 5: low bar of you know, looking like they have at

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Speaker 5: least some energy and aren't you know, full connolly. But

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Speaker 5: at the same time, I think what's what what Trump

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Speaker 5: is struggling with is coming without actually a decent resistance

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Speaker 5: from the Democratic Party, and so that goes to show

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Speaker 5: like what could this be? Like I mean again, like

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Speaker 5: Donald Trump has barely won a couple of elections. This

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Speaker 5: man came off being the host of Celebrity Apprentice, Like

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Speaker 5: Hillary Clinton was terrible, Joe Biden was terrible, Kamala Harris

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Speaker 5: was terrible. That's how bad Dems have been. It's not

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Speaker 5: any I think special testament to Donald Trump being super

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Speaker 5: attractive and likable. I think he's a smart politician with

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Speaker 5: his base. But it's not like the entire country loves

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Speaker 5: Donald Trump despite what he may say. It's just that

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Speaker 5: consistently Dems have been worse than Trump, except for Biden

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Speaker 5: in twenty twenty in the middle of the pandemic. So yea,

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Speaker 5: in ten years, they have not figured out a way

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Speaker 5: to be slightly better than Donald Trump.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well, your point about slock and Jefferson Booker too is

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Speaker 2: really well taken. And I've never seen anything more manufactured

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Speaker 2: than the like pushing slot Eliza Sluckin.

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Speaker 4: Honest, I would wanted this.

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Speaker 2: The Democratic leadership for some reason was like this lady,

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Speaker 2: she's the.

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Speaker 4: Real future of a party. We're going to have her

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Speaker 4: do the response to the state of the Union.

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Speaker 2: We're gonna have her lead our effort to you know,

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Speaker 2: tant down all this anti oligarchy talk that's getting a

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Speaker 2: little too popular among our normy Democrat base. But to

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Speaker 2: your point, you know, I think the I think the

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Speaker 2: things that have really landed with the liberal base has

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Speaker 2: been number one, the stop Oligarchy Tour, the fight Oligarchy tour.

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Speaker 4: Number two.

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Speaker 2: You know, people like Jasmine Crockett who just can like

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Speaker 2: dish it out and really is it just has this

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Speaker 2: vibe and this energy. She's not going to take any shit,

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Speaker 2: and she's gonna like get out there and get in

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Speaker 2: your face.

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Speaker 4: Whatever.

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Speaker 2: Cory Booker's speech, whether I like it or not, I mean, listen,

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Speaker 2: he did a thing, okay, like liberals loved it. The

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Speaker 2: other thing is the Chris van Holland going to El Salvador,

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Speaker 2: which you know, to me is a study in contrast

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Speaker 2: between Corey Booker's thing, which was actually basically about nothing

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Speaker 2: like him positioning himself as a resistance fighter, whereas Chris

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Speaker 2: van Holland, you know, he actually did a thing like

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Speaker 2: he went. It was a real issue. It was some

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Speaker 2: personal risktue himself. It's a risky political issue, and obviously

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Speaker 2: b Kelly did all he could to make the optics

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Speaker 2: as terrible as possible, et cetera. And you know, I

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Speaker 2: think his actions really kept that story alive and has

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Speaker 2: helped to move public opinion dramatically against the Trump administration,

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Speaker 2: not only specifically in that case, but that's what helped

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Speaker 2: to drag them underwater on immigration in general. So and

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Speaker 2: since then, you've seen some other representatives and senators follow

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Speaker 2: suit and going to visit people who are detained because

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Speaker 2: they you know, published an not bed or had some

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Speaker 2: you know, pro Palestine speech or whatever. You saw other

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Speaker 2: members also travel down to El Salvador. So that really

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Speaker 2: set a model for Democrats moving forward who actually wanted

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Speaker 2: to do something and not just like sit on the

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Speaker 2: steps of the Capitol and talk about how much they

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Speaker 2: miss Barack Obama.

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Speaker 5: Well, okay, so I think with the base, it makes

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Speaker 5: sense to me that that would be sort of that

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Speaker 5: all of that would be a shot in the arm.

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Speaker 5: I still think the Van Holland and what was the

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Speaker 5: oh the uh yeah, Well, I think the Van Holland

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Speaker 5: example in particular is like, I don't think they quite

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Speaker 5: nailed the messaging for a broader audience, but I think

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Speaker 5: he understood that what the Democratic Party's base, like the

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Speaker 5: grassroots type people want right now is someone to like

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Speaker 5: actually take personal risk and sect.

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Speaker 2: You know, I really disagree with that, and I think

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Speaker 2: it shows up in the polling. I mean, when we

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Speaker 2: were looking yesterday at the best and the worst issues

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Speaker 2: for Trump, his best issue and this was the New

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Speaker 2: York Times Siena polling, which is you know, considered to

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Speaker 2: be one of the more credible pollsters, and they.

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Speaker 4: Do a large stample, et cetera.

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Speaker 2: Best polling numbers were on immigration, though he was still

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Speaker 2: underwater by four worst polling numbers was the handling of

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Speaker 2: Kilmara Brego Garcia. So I think, I mean, the numbers

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Speaker 2: I've seen are like twenty percent support what the Trump

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Speaker 2: administration is doing there. So I do believe that the

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Speaker 2: efforts of Chris van Holland and others to shine a

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Speaker 2: light on that and to consistently explain, you know, this

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Speaker 2: isn't really about this one guy, and however you may

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Speaker 2: feel about him, this is about due process for all

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Speaker 2: of us. This is about protecting all of our rights

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Speaker 2: and your right to have your day in court before

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Speaker 2: being sent for life to this you know, foreign goolog.

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Speaker 2: I think it's undeniable at this point that that messaging

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Speaker 2: has landed and that it has dramatically turned people against

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Speaker 2: the Trump administration's handling in that one specific case, with

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Speaker 2: bleedover into how they feel about the immigration program read large.

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Speaker 5: I think people definitely agree with that sentiment. I don't

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Speaker 5: disagree that that's where the public has landed on it.

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Speaker 5: I think it's a for me it's an interesting case

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Speaker 5: study and how Dems can misread or not misread that's

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Speaker 5: the wrong word, how they can over maybe overread the

438
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,840
Speaker 5: public's position. Like it's easy to say, and actually I

439
00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,200
Speaker 5: think Trump does this sometimes too. It's easy to say, Okay,

440
00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,840
Speaker 5: the public is with us, this is a winning issue.

441
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:04,080
Speaker 5: Can't be sending people to see caught on, you know,

442
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:08,200
Speaker 5: mistakes that your own administration's attorneys, your own DJ attorneys

443
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,800
Speaker 5: admit and like sucking up to the CALA and doing

444
00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:15,440
Speaker 5: that weird stuff like nobody is like here for that.

445
00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:19,720
Speaker 5: I think what Van Holland did then looked like the

446
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,120
Speaker 5: Trump administration was able to message it in a way

447
00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:25,240
Speaker 5: that probably resonated with a lot of people as Dems

448
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:29,199
Speaker 5: actively trying to keep people who are not in the

449
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:31,240
Speaker 5: country legally in the country, even though it's not what

450
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:33,760
Speaker 5: the case is about. I think it's easy to get

451
00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:35,680
Speaker 5: we probably just disagree on it. I just think it's

452
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,720
Speaker 5: easy to get caught in that trap of like not

453
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:42,320
Speaker 5: sticking on the narrow issue, but then also looking like

454
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:46,480
Speaker 5: you're in the position that most people disagree with because

455
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:50,879
Speaker 5: you kind of misread where people are on the narrow

456
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:51,840
Speaker 5: issue in and of itself.

457
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:52,760
Speaker 3: But we probably.

458
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:53,080
Speaker 4: Disagree with that.

459
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:55,280
Speaker 2: I mean, I do, I do, just disagree with the

460
00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:57,399
Speaker 2: assessment there. And I think at this point the polling

461
00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,359
Speaker 2: bears it out pretty clearly that, you know, because the

462
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:04,320
Speaker 2: Trump administration had admitted fault in this case, it made

463
00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,159
Speaker 2: it fairly clear cut of like you screwed up.

464
00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:08,640
Speaker 4: Bring the guy back, like what are you doing?

465
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:13,200
Speaker 2: And also because the Trump Trump himself was like, we're

466
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:17,439
Speaker 2: going for us born, you know, homegrown criminals next, it

467
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:19,760
Speaker 2: didn't take any imagination to go, oh, this isn't just

468
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:23,600
Speaker 2: about rights for undocumented immigrants. This is an assault on

469
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 2: all He wants to be able to send anybody he

470
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,960
Speaker 2: wants and disappear into this dungeon. And you know, I

471
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:32,439
Speaker 2: think that really made it easier for Democrats to make

472
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:36,200
Speaker 2: the case that this matter is for everyone. And you know,

473
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:41,040
Speaker 2: the Teriff stuff politically is obviously extremely toxic, and it's

474
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:44,720
Speaker 2: also something that everyone is aware of their own material

475
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:48,199
Speaker 2: circumstances and the way they're being negatively impacted. So I

476
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,119
Speaker 2: think they were able to push the message about kil

477
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:53,560
Speaker 2: Mar Abrego Garcia and the assault on rights and the

478
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:57,480
Speaker 2: way that the implications this has for the broader immigration agenda. Well,

479
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:01,400
Speaker 2: obviously the tariff stuff is there, not going away anytime soon,

480
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:03,439
Speaker 2: but we can we can agree to disagree on that

481
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:04,119
Speaker 2: one if you'd like.

482
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:05,680
Speaker 4: We'll come back to it, I'm sure another day.

483
00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, there'll be plenty to talk about.

484
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, so let's go Deportations to come, yes.

485
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,240
Speaker 2: Indeed, no doubt about it. A long way from through

486
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:18,440
Speaker 2: with that. Let's go ahead and talk about some updates

487
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 2: with regard to Israel and with regard to our own country.

488
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:21,400
Speaker 4: Of course.

489
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 2: Edamar Ben Gavier has been doing a tour here in

490
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:29,159
Speaker 2: the US. He is, you know, actual terrorist of Israel,

491
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 2: but part of the NETANYAHUO coalition and government. He routinely,

492
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:34,920
Speaker 2: you know, he's loud and proud about, Hey, I think

493
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 2: we should bomb aid depots, and I don't think there

494
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:39,119
Speaker 2: should be any food going into the Gaza Strip. And

495
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 2: he goes to these resettlement conferences and is a real

496
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 2: hero to you know, the sort of like extremist settler

497
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:48,600
Speaker 2: community who are also very overt about we want to

498
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 2: push all the Palestinians out, and we want to be

499
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,320
Speaker 2: able to completely take over the Gaza Strip and all

500
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 2: of Palestine. So let's go ahead and take a look.

501
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 2: He was here in the halls of Congress and madea bench.

502
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 2: Men of Code Pink was protesting him along with others.

503
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:05,879
Speaker 2: We can go ahead and put this up on the screen.

504
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 2: So this is their headline from Code Pink Israeli war

505
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:12,680
Speaker 2: criminal Itamar Ben Gavie. And you know, she's confronting him

506
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 2: and he's just sort of like completely losing his mind.

507
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 2: He's not one to just you know, to just kind

508
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 2: of take it and keep moving. He's very this is

509
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,200
Speaker 2: his persona is He's this kind of like thuggish character

510
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:27,880
Speaker 2: who you know, will has pulled down a gun on

511
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:32,720
Speaker 2: someone previously and is shouting back and he's been making

512
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:33,160
Speaker 2: the rounds.

513
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:33,840
Speaker 4: We'll get back to that.

514
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 2: He was at Yale, he was protested there, and he

515
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,119
Speaker 2: was also speaking at a synagogue in Brooklyn where there

516
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 2: were protests and you know, one pro Palestine Jewish Israeli

517
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:46,840
Speaker 2: woman was viciously assaulted there.

518
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 4: But we'll get to that in a moment.

519
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 2: I wanted to highlight for people there's a new documentary

520
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 2: out at from BBC done by Louis Thrue about the

521
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:01,639
Speaker 2: settlements in the West Bank and the settler idlogy. He interviews.

522
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:03,399
Speaker 2: I really recommend the whole things about an hour long.

523
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:05,719
Speaker 2: I watched it last night and it's really fantastic. We

524
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 2: were probably watching it at the same time, Crystal.

525
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,160
Speaker 4: Oh really that's last night too.

526
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, we were probably watching it at the

527
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 3: same time.

528
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:14,919
Speaker 2: We should have you know, we could have could have

529
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 2: gotten together and I should have done it. Yeah. Anyway,

530
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:23,439
Speaker 2: he interviewed Daniella Weiss, among others, and she really is

531
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 2: sort of like the the godmother of the settler movement,

532
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 2: and I really recommend people listen to what she has

533
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,399
Speaker 2: to say about what the Israeli government's program is, because

534
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:40,440
Speaker 2: what I've found is that the more like extremist elements

535
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 2: within Israel are much more upfront and much more accurate

536
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:47,359
Speaker 2: about the actual project that Israel is engaging in at

537
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,400
Speaker 2: this point. So let's go ahead and take a listen

538
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 2: to a little bit of that documentary.

539
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 11: So the idea is to force the government by putting

540
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 11: people starts with small settlements, then they get bigger than

541
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 11: they get recognized by the State of Israel and basically

542
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 11: creating a new demographic reality.

543
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 12: We do not force the government. We do for governments

544
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:14,360
Speaker 12: what they cannot do for themselves. Even if you're take

545
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,919
Speaker 12: Nathaniel now, he is very happy with what we do

546
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:22,479
Speaker 12: here and also about our plans to build in Jewish

547
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 12: communities in Gaza. Is happy about it, but he cannot

548
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:30,160
Speaker 12: say it. He says the opposite. It's not realistic.

549
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 13: Good, we will make it realistic. It's not forcing the government,

550
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 13: it's helping the government. It's step number one one in politics.

551
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,160
Speaker 13: You don't force the government. You give the government the courage,

552
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 13: the ability, the public support, the political support.

553
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 12: I think you understand what I said, even if you.

554
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:01,439
Speaker 2: Disagree, and I think we understand Emily. I think she

555
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 2: makes it quite plain. And what Louis, you know, really

556
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,879
Speaker 2: uncovers this won't be surprising to people who have followed

557
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 2: this closely, is just how much of the illegal settlement

558
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 2: activity and the violence against Palestinians is directly backed by

559
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:21,119
Speaker 2: the Israeli government. And Daniella is correct, she has you know,

560
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 2: she's absolutely one hundred percent correct that what they are

561
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,199
Speaker 2: doing is with the tacit support of the government and

562
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:31,400
Speaker 2: helps to enable the you know, explicit project of Natanyahu

563
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 2: and his coalition.

564
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 5: You know, I was thinking about that clip while we

565
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 5: were watching Medea. Benjamin kind of shout at Bengavir because

566
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 5: in a sense, there is. So it is so much

567
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 5: more you know, as she says at the end, you know,

568
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 5: I think you understand what I'm saying, even if you

569
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 5: disagree with it. It is so much more like the so

570
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 5: much more respectable to be Danielle Weiss and Ben Gavir

571
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 5: than to be Benja Yahu, because it is or to be,

572
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 5: for example, Joe Biden or the Republicans who try to

573
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 5: have it both ways and say, this is not what

574
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 5: we're doing, but this is what we're doing. The the

575
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 5: at least like transparency of the project that they're involved in.

576
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 5: U is so much clearer and more discernible than the

577
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 5: people who try to have it both ways and say, no,

578
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 5: we're following all international law. This is uh, you know,

579
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 5: we are doing everything right. It's you who are in

580
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 5: the wrong here. No, they're being honest about what the

581
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 5: project actually is. And again most people disagree with it

582
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 5: very strongly, but you know, it's it just seeing that

583
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 5: puts in stark contrast the sort of muddled bs that

584
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 5: you get from Neta Yahu and Joe Biden. And I

585
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 5: mentioned Biden in particular because we have the next element

586
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 5: to put up on the screen.

587
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 3: D three. This is some reporting from.

588
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 5: Drop site about the quote unquote tireless work that Biden

589
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 5: was putting in to get a cease fire in Crystal.

590
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 5: I just wanted to see your reaction to the strap

591
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 5: site story and a little bit more from it as well.

592
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is a synopsis of an Israeli Channel

593
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 2: thirteen investigation, and you know, it's incredible out the information

594
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 2: you can get from the Israeli press that will never

595
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 2: be repeated in the US media. But in any case,

596
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 2: the former Israeli ambassador Michael Herzog said, God did the

597
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 2: State of Israel a favor that Biden was the president

598
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 2: during this period we fought in Gaza for over a year.

599
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 2: The administration never came to us and said ceasefire. Now,

600
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 2: it never did, and that's not to be taken for granted.

601
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 2: So you know, you can't help but think of AOC

602
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 2: at the DNC saying Kamala Harris working tirelessly for a ceasefire.

603
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 2: In fact, I saw Ilhan Omar kind of take a

604
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 2: shot on Twitter saying, oh, look, it turns out they

605
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 2: were as we all expected. They were never working tirelessly

606
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 2: for a ceasefire. And you know, the Democratic base and

607
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 2: much of the country has completely turned against Israel in

608
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 2: an extraordinary manner because even in spite of the wave

609
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 2: of propaganda, we are fed about what is being done

610
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 2: in the Gaza Strip. It could not help but break

611
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 2: through the images, the immorality, the war crimes, the starvation,

612
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 2: the utter decimation of the Gaza Strip broke through, and

613
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 2: people are looking at that with horror and say, how

614
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:33,959
Speaker 2: can my tax dollars go to support this?

615
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 4: I don't want to be any part of this.

616
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 2: And so to have it overtly said what we all knew,

617
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 2: what we all expected, but just to be brazenly open

618
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 2: about it. No, the Biden administration, they didn't want a ceasefire.

619
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 2: They didn't ask for a ceasefire. They never did. And

620
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 2: so there was always a question emily during the Biden

621
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 2: administration of whether, you know, they really wanted the war

622
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 2: to end, but they just were afraid of the political

623
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 2: pressure and they didn't want to apply leverage. But really

624
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 2: they'd like it if the bomb stopped or whatever. And

625
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:08,719
Speaker 2: I think that this demonstrates that Biden himself, who you know,

626
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 2: was a kind of died in the whole ideological zionist

627
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 2: committed to it, had an outdated view of Israel forge

628
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 2: in like nineteen seventy two or whatever, that he supported this,

629
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 2: he's supported, He'd never asked for it to stop. He

630
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 2: was not working tirelessly for a Seasar Kamala Harris certainly

631
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 2: was not working tirelessly for a ceasefire in spite of

632
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 2: the fact that, yeah, at this point, the people who

633
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 2: have power and are running the show and are driving

634
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 2: the agenda within Israel are Danielle Owiss much more than

635
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 2: any sort of like rump liberal internationalist political group that

636
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 2: may still sort of like exist on the margins within Israel.

637
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 2: It is Itamar Ben Kavie. It is Daniel Owiss who

638
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 2: are driving, who are driving the train and running the show.

639
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 2: So what I've been saying for a while is, you know,

640
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 2: if you had been listening to Danielle Owis and Smochurch

641
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 2: and Ben Gavie and the most alarmist lefties from the beginning,

642
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 2: you know, from October eighth about what was going to

643
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 2: unfold and what were that was going to look like,

644
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 2: you would have a much much, much more accurate, greater

645
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 2: understanding of everything that unfolded from then until now. Now

646
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 2: there is a little bit of possible there's some talks

647
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 2: going on about a potential cease fire. I'm not even

648
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 2: going to come close to getting my hopes up at

649
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 2: this point because it just looks so incredibly dire. And

650
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 2: this comes at a time too. It could put the

651
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 2: next piece up on the screen.

652
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 8: Yo.

653
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 2: The whoever is left in Gaza, However, many people are left,

654
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 2: two million maybe less. According to Trump and things that

655
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 2: he've said, they're being starved to death in real time.

656
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 2: Right now, nothing has entered this from the American Conservative

657
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 2: Nothing has entered Gaza for more than fifty days. Charity

658
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 2: kitchens now they've said they are out completely of food,

659
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 2: they're shuttering services. Two million people on the break. We

660
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 2: are currently witnessing israel solution to the Gaza question, an

661
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 2: unmistakable humanitarian crisis engineered by the Israeli government to remove

662
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,319
Speaker 2: from its borders and entire people. It has deemed the

663
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 2: equivalent of Locus. That's where we are, I mean, and

664
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:18,239
Speaker 2: all of the debate about you know, and the from

665
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:20,280
Speaker 2: the early days, oh did they really bomb a hospital?

666
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 2: They would never do that, And here's our PowerPoint presentation

667
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:25,399
Speaker 2: about the real tunnels and all of that. I mean,

668
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:27,720
Speaker 2: now there's just no even pretense anymore Emily.

669
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,400
Speaker 5: And this is so again, it's not entirely surprising that

670
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 5: the American conservative would publish ASTs surrealist and you know,

671
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 5: been smeared by you know, conservatives for a really long time.

672
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 5: But it gets to it gets back to Bengavir Danielle Weiss,

673
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:46,239
Speaker 5: the at least like consistency of their argument, which is

674
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:50,719
Speaker 5: that yes, the people of Gaza, the people of the

675
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 5: West Bank, but especially the people of Gaza in this context,

676
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:54,440
Speaker 5: starve them.

677
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 3: This is war like.

678
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 5: That's their argument, and they're honest about it, whereas the

679
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:01,919
Speaker 5: nets and Nahu of the world, will, you know, say

680
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 5: this is, you know, we're doing the best that we can.

681
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 5: You know, this is we we did this, we did that,

682
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 5: we follow all the rules. This is you know, totally

683
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 5: in compliance. We're doing the best we can under tough circumstances.

684
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 5: When in reality there's this underlying sort of ideological marriage

685
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 5: of the millenarian approach of people who are trying to

686
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 5: settle areas of the West Bank, but then also the

687
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:34,240
Speaker 5: secular people who believe secular Zionists, who who want Israel

688
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 5: to sort of be protected from enemies. They are not

689
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:42,439
Speaker 5: honest about the means to that end. They both share

690
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 5: the same end, which is uh more land and in

691
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 5: all of the various ways to accomplish that, but they're

692
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:53,319
Speaker 5: not honest that they are pursuing those beings to that end.

693
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 5: And that is that contrast is really clear when you

694
00:35:57,480 --> 00:35:58,800
Speaker 5: watch the documentary.

695
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 4: Especially, Yeah, no doubt about it.

696
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 2: And if you watch the documentary and you talk to

697
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 2: some of these settlers, a number of whom, by the way,

698
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 2: are Americans, by the way, and you'll say, well, what

699
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 2: about this is illegal? Like what you're doing is illegal,

700
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:15,319
Speaker 2: These settlements are illegal under international law. They'll say, one

701
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 2: of them said directly, don't care. Don't care. As the

702
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:21,880
Speaker 2: Bible is the land. Deed is what the Bible is.

703
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:24,919
Speaker 2: The land need some things are greater than the law.

704
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 2: And that's their view, is that they don't have to

705
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,239
Speaker 2: abide by anything. God has promised this land to them.

706
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 2: That's what they believe, and whatever it takes, they're going

707
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 2: to do it, including starving people, including you know, reducing

708
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:44,320
Speaker 2: Gaza to rubble, including ethnic cleansing, whatever.

709
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 5: Testament justice, Yes, that's right, that's yep. And again that

710
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:51,840
Speaker 5: it is so much more honest and like that's the

711
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 5: you know, again, as Danielle Weis says, disagree with it,

712
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 5: but that puts it all on the table for people

713
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:01,800
Speaker 5: to judge what the tactics are as opposed to again

714
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:08,279
Speaker 5: hiding behind this sort of nonsense problem about following international

715
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 5: law and everything. That's just posturing, and it forces American politicians,

716
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 5: our own politicians to lie and stretch the truth on

717
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 5: their behalf in order to keep funneling the money that way.

718
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 2: I have a feeling on the Democratic side it's this

719
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 2: is going to be a real litmus test issue in

720
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 2: twenty twenty eight because the Democratic base is eighty percent

721
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 2: on board with we're not sending any more weapons to Israel.

722
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 2: You know, there has just been an absolute seat change

723
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:42,239
Speaker 2: among Democratic base voters. And I have to think that

724
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:45,840
Speaker 2: this is going to be a significant litmus test issue

725
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 2: in the twenty twenty eight primary, and I think it

726
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 2: will be very hard for a candidate to get through

727
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 2: who holds the old line Joe Biden like whatever Israel

728
00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 2: once Israel gets position moving forward, but well, we'll have

729
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:02,879
Speaker 2: to see how the politics of that play out. And

730
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 2: you know, whether there's uh, there are enough Palestinians and

731
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 2: enough of Palestine left for it to even really matter

732
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 2: at that point, which is increasingly an open and very

733
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 2: concerning question. At the same time, let's go ahead and

734
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 2: talk a little bit more about Benavier. Who is I mean,

735
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 2: this man is convicted to hers. People like this used

736
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 2: to be pushed to the fringe of Israeli society. Now

737
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 2: he is an important and influential and powerful part of

738
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 2: the Netanyahu coalition. So he went to Yale, there were

739
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:39,400
Speaker 2: protests there. He went and spoke at a synagogue in Brooklyn.

740
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 2: There were protests there as well, and the counter the

741
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 2: pro Israel counter protesters turned quite violent. Can put this

742
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 2: up on the screen, and in particular, and you know,

743
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 2: just warning like this is disturbing. So this is a

744
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 2: pro Palestine woman who you know, is surrounded by this

745
00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:00,160
Speaker 2: like mob of counter protesters who are screaming at her

746
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:02,959
Speaker 2: and all sorts of you know, horrible insults and death

747
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:09,360
Speaker 2: to Arabs, et cetera. She's being escorted by police officers,

748
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 2: you know, and it was quite a fraud scene. Could

749
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 2: put the next one up on the screen. You can

750
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:21,279
Speaker 2: see this woman who was assaulted. You can see her

751
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 2: on the left there, you know, bloodied and here after

752
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 2: receiving some treatment and with her bandages. So this is

753
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 2: a pro Palestine woman who happens to be Jewish and

754
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 2: also only happens to be Israeli. And I just have

755
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:38,479
Speaker 2: to say, if this was a Jewish Israeli woman who

756
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 2: was pro Israel who had been viciously assaulted in this way,

757
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 2: we would have heard endless media coverage over it, and

758
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 2: it would be used to smear the entire pro Palestine

759
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 2: movement as violent anti Semites. But because she happens to

760
00:39:56,280 --> 00:40:01,439
Speaker 2: be a pro Palestine Jewish Israeli woman, we get very

761
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:06,279
Speaker 2: very little mainstream coverage, and certainly it's not used to

762
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 2: tar all of the pro Israel side of the equation

763
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:13,760
Speaker 2: as being anti Semitic or being violent and out of bounds,

764
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:14,240
Speaker 2: et cetera.

765
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:19,279
Speaker 5: Things were getting really wild in Brooklyn last night, and

766
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 5: I feel like that hasn't penetrated the media. I think

767
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 5: it's just sort of just happening in the background, and

768
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 5: people weren't talking about what's happening on the streets of

769
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:30,560
Speaker 5: New York. I mean, you see it pop up on

770
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 5: social media. But am I wrong thinking like the sort

771
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:37,799
Speaker 5: of quote unquote mainstream media just isn't really touching this.

772
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:38,760
Speaker 3: I don't know why.

773
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I think you do know why. It's

774
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 2: because it's uncomfortable because so far the violence has been

775
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 2: one sided, and you know, I don't know what chance

776
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:51,000
Speaker 2: were said. There's allegations that some of the pro Palestine

777
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 2: chants were quote unquote anti Semitic. I just you know,

778
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:56,400
Speaker 2: I need to see some evidence and some proof of that.

779
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 2: But rally chants are very different than actual assault and

780
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:03,719
Speaker 2: violent and part of this will help to explain why

781
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 2: the media is very reticent to talk about those. You

782
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:07,600
Speaker 2: can put Eric Adams up on the screen here saying

783
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 2: he's gonna there's going to be an investigation into this assault.

784
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:14,000
Speaker 2: He says, the NYPD is investigating a series of incidents

785
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:16,920
Speaker 2: stemming from clashing protests on Thursday that began when a

786
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:20,880
Speaker 2: group of anti Israel protesters surrounded the Jabad Lebovich World headquarters,

787
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,400
Speaker 2: Jewish House of Worship. Initial reports indicate one female protester

788
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 2: was isolated from a group, harassed by counter protesters, suffered injuries,

789
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 2: and another incident second one was surround and subjected to

790
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:34,359
Speaker 2: vile threatening by counter protesters. One ar us was made

791
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 2: several summonss and he goes on to say that you

792
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 2: know there's going to be an investigation here, and commending

793
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 2: the NYPD police officers who were there on the scene,

794
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:48,279
Speaker 2: and just from him saying you know that there is

795
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:52,440
Speaker 2: going to be an investigation into these assaults. There has

796
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:54,760
Speaker 2: been a complete freak out. We can see this extremist

797
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:56,840
Speaker 2: group Bitar that they're the ones that have been like

798
00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:00,200
Speaker 2: compiling the risks, the lists and bragging that the Trump

799
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:04,400
Speaker 2: administration is listening to them about which students university students

800
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:08,280
Speaker 2: should be arrested and detained for their pro Palestine speech.

801
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 4: Anyway.

802
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 2: They say New York has fallen, Jews are unsafe in

803
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:16,439
Speaker 2: New York City. We urge all Jews to flee. Pagrams

804
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:17,800
Speaker 2: are imminent.

805
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 3: And this is what I say. I have to say.

806
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 5: I kind of it's surprising to me that there just

807
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 5: isn't more again quote unquote mainstream media coverage of this

808
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:28,240
Speaker 5: because of posts like that, because it's sort of becoming

809
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 5: it's being used as almost a roar test where the

810
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 5: groups like Patar are saying pagrams are imminent, flee New

811
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 5: York City, and what you see as an Israeli supporter

812
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 5: of Palestine getting bloodied and punched in the face. I

813
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 5: mean it's just bizarre. How I guess maybe the right

814
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:49,879
Speaker 5: way is the media doesn't know how to deal with

815
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:52,400
Speaker 5: stories like this. It's so I think it's so lost

816
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:56,240
Speaker 5: right now. It's like it's leading to a complete blind

817
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:58,800
Speaker 5: spot where people don't see what's happening on the streets

818
00:42:58,800 --> 00:42:59,319
Speaker 5: of New York.

819
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,239
Speaker 2: Let me also make the Glenn Greenwald point, which is,

820
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 2: you know, when these students were being rounded up and

821
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:07,839
Speaker 2: arrested for writing an op ed or being a negotiator

822
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:11,439
Speaker 2: or at a protest or whatever. What I heard from

823
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 2: a lot of people on the right who defended this

824
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:16,160
Speaker 2: was if you are a foreigner in this country, you

825
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:18,799
Speaker 2: need to zip it, keep your mouth shut, be a

826
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:21,799
Speaker 2: good boy or girl. Don't let us know. We don't

827
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:24,200
Speaker 2: want to know about your politics. And now you have

828
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:28,719
Speaker 2: ben Gavier here, who is obviously a foreigner here in

829
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:31,800
Speaker 2: the US, going to Yale, going to Capitol Hill, going

830
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 2: to Brooklyn. And again, this man is a convicted terrorist

831
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 2: and is out there. You saw the video with him

832
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 2: and Medea. Benjamin like, he's not being shy about he's

833
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 2: not being a good little boy and keeping his views

834
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:48,880
Speaker 2: to himself while he's abroad in the United.

835
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 4: States of America. So hmm.

836
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 2: Interesting, there's a little bit of a double standard there

837
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 2: about who is allowed to aggressively assert their views in

838
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:00,799
Speaker 2: whatever form and venue that they care to, even as it,

839
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:04,200
Speaker 2: you know, as he is like the ultimate insider, and

840
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 2: if anyone has ever deserved for their visit to be protested,

841
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 2: it is that man. He's allowed to do that, no problem.

842
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,880
Speaker 2: But God forbid you write a student op ed calling

843
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:15,719
Speaker 2: in your university to dive us from Israel, then you

844
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:18,520
Speaker 2: deserve to be locked up indefinitely and deported from the country.

845
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 14: Yeah.

846
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:21,799
Speaker 5: It reminds me of the push the pushback of the

847
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:24,440
Speaker 5: pushback to Bryan and Sager's drop site story last week

848
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 5: where people were saying, you know, why is someone in

849
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:30,920
Speaker 5: the NSC formerly working for the Israeli defense Ministry? Well,

850
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 5: why why are you upset that she was on the

851
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 5: Israeli Defence Ministry and sort of saying it smacks of

852
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 5: anti Semitism to say that there's anything newsworthy about that,

853
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:44,560
Speaker 5: and people going back and being like, well, if it

854
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:48,319
Speaker 5: were any other country, we would be allowed to say

855
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 5: that's a little bit weird. Is there an espionage connection?

856
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 5: Is there a conflict of interest? But it's the one

857
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 5: place that if you highlight it, you end up getting

858
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:06,320
Speaker 5: accused of fomenting or perpetuating discrimination against Israel.

859
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:09,919
Speaker 3: And it was quick someone worked for another country. It's

860
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:14,800
Speaker 3: just like and is on the National Security Council. So anyway,

861
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 3: reminded me of that point, Crystal.

862
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, very very good point on that one.

863
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 2: All right, let's go ahead and get to Ben Smith,

864
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:25,600
Speaker 2: who broke open his extraordinary internal dynamics of some of

865
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:28,759
Speaker 2: these group chats which have taken off on the right

866
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 2: and the way that they have shaped the current government

867
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 2: and also sort of the fallout as this government has

868
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 2: become more unpopular, and especially with regard to tariffs.

869
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:38,560
Speaker 4: So let's go ahead and get to that.

870
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:43,520
Speaker 3: We're excited to be joined now by Ben Smith.

871
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:45,440
Speaker 5: He is the co founder and editor in chief of

872
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:48,960
Speaker 5: Semaphore as well as the host of the podcast Mixed Signals,

873
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:51,720
Speaker 5: and has a huge group that we are very eager

874
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 5: to dissect.

875
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:54,000
Speaker 3: Ben, thank you for joining.

876
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:55,640
Speaker 9: Us, Thanks for having me on.

877
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:58,319
Speaker 5: Of course, let's put this first element up on the

878
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:02,280
Speaker 5: screen because this was the already heard around the world yesterday.

879
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:05,719
Speaker 5: Ben's headline over at Semaphore was the group chats that

880
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 5: changed America, and Ben I don't even want to try

881
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:14,320
Speaker 5: to explain the story myself, because you reported it out

882
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 5: and it is really remarkable. And I have to say,

883
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 5: as somebody on the right, conservatives really love signal. Signal

884
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 5: chats are all the rage right now. But this also

885
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:29,000
Speaker 5: wasn't just explicitly conservatives. These are sort of billionaires, power brokers,

886
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:31,359
Speaker 5: the kinds of people who maybe give a little bit

887
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 5: to Dems, a little bit of Republicans and rub elbows

888
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 5: with everyone. So can you just tell us about these

889
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 5: group chats that changed America? Like what the heck is

890
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:40,600
Speaker 5: going on?

891
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:42,080
Speaker 4: Yeah?

892
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:44,600
Speaker 14: Sure, I mean I think you know, basically, starting in

893
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:47,360
Speaker 14: twenty twenty, around the time as some people may remember

894
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 14: that the app Clubhouse was popping off, a number of

895
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 14: kind of powerful Silicon Valley people. Mark Andresen by far

896
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 14: the most important of them. He's the sort of old

897
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:02,320
Speaker 14: school silicon adventure capital leader who created the web browser,

898
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 14: among other things. Tall guy egghead, you've seen him. He

899
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:09,840
Speaker 14: you know, had the feeling which I think a lot

900
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 14: of people had, that it was sort of like impossible

901
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:15,000
Speaker 14: to have open conversations on Twitter as it was known then,

902
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:17,640
Speaker 14: and particularly that it was sort of that it was

903
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:21,399
Speaker 14: in his view like dominated by progressive speech policing and

904
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:25,480
Speaker 14: so that you know, and that tech leaders needed new spaces,

905
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 14: and a colleague of his, again named Shruerham Krishnan, who's

906
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:32,759
Speaker 14: now the White House AI advisor, started eventually dozens of

907
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:35,239
Speaker 14: WhatsApp groups for him and other tech leaders to talk

908
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:37,880
Speaker 14: about their industries, to gossip and I think to somebody

909
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:39,680
Speaker 14: read to complain about their will employees.

910
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 9: Basically, who were.

911
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 14: You know, demanding that they put up whatever symbol was

912
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:46,879
Speaker 14: the sort of trendy at that moment, and they didn't

913
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:48,239
Speaker 14: want to but didn't know how to say no.

914
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:49,960
Speaker 9: And this was the shared experience.

915
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:52,759
Speaker 14: And he then asked another colleague to set up and

916
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:55,640
Speaker 14: he himself set up a bunch of signal groups, first

917
00:47:55,640 --> 00:48:00,360
Speaker 14: with like Harper's specifically with Harper's letter liberals you know

918
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:04,839
Speaker 14: who were pro speech and people like Camille Foster from

919
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:08,799
Speaker 14: the Fifth Column podcast and Thomas chatterthan Williams, Yasha Monk,

920
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:13,760
Speaker 14: and then I think he and recent and Christopher Ruffo

921
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:16,279
Speaker 14: is a conservative activist who was also in that particular group,

922
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:19,319
Speaker 14: basically decided the liberals were too interested in speech and

923
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 14: not interested enough in power, got sick of them, moved

924
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:24,959
Speaker 14: and moved on to another set of chats, and again

925
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:27,920
Speaker 14: in Richard Hanania organized a more I'm saying his name right,

926
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 14: a more like a more right wing chat. Eventually, Richard

927
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 14: felt like he wasn't right wing enough for that chat

928
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:37,319
Speaker 14: as in his view, and recent kind of kept moving

929
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:40,479
Speaker 14: right and you know, and basically these wound up being

930
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:45,240
Speaker 14: very important organizing nodes for Silicon Valley's embrace of Donald Trump.

931
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 14: And the final group, which like through three hundred plus

932
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:50,000
Speaker 14: people are in. I'm honestly a little surprised that you

933
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:52,319
Speaker 14: guys aren't in it, although maybe you are. It's called

934
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 14: Chatham House now, which is like which is basically devolved

935
00:48:56,520 --> 00:49:00,640
Speaker 14: into a space where conservatives fight with Mark Cuban all day.

936
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:05,359
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, well it is extraordinary. Actually, I saw

937
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:08,239
Speaker 2: Richard Hannania's response to this. He's like, these people have

938
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:09,759
Speaker 2: all the money in the world and the o they're

939
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:12,320
Speaker 2: like online try and they're in these groups trying to

940
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:16,360
Speaker 2: impress Mark Cuban or like random anonymous racists. That's what

941
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 2: they spend their time doing. It is kind of extraordinary.

942
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:21,920
Speaker 2: And then the trajectory you sketch out is also I

943
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:26,359
Speaker 2: think important to understand the particular bubble that this Trump

944
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:29,520
Speaker 2: administration is in as well, because you're talking about this,

945
00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 2: like increasing okay that the chat that included Thomas Chatterdan

946
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:35,960
Speaker 2: Williams or whoever, that wasn't right wing enough, and they

947
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:38,520
Speaker 2: were too. They actually had some principles around free speech.

948
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:40,719
Speaker 2: It wasn't just a cudgel to use to, you know,

949
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:43,160
Speaker 2: to crush the left. And then they start a new

950
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 2: group and that one's not right wing enough. And then

951
00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 2: we can put this extraordinary screenshot that you got your

952
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:51,440
Speaker 2: hands on on the screen that shows David Sachs getting

953
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:55,319
Speaker 2: pissed off because this group now has become worthless since

954
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:58,280
Speaker 2: the Lattice voices have TDS.

955
00:49:57,440 --> 00:49:58,840
Speaker 4: Trump arrangement syndrome.

956
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:01,560
Speaker 2: Then he leaves the group and instruct someone to create

957
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 2: a new one with just quote unquote smart people. Brian

958
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:07,640
Speaker 2: Goldberg responds, I'm not sure we have Trump arrangements in Rome.

959
00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 2: I think we Republicans who supported Trump are just seeing

960
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:14,520
Speaker 2: this as a failed administration. Followed by departures from Tucker Carlson,

961
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 2: Sean maguire and one of the Winklevoss twins. Just absolutely

962
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 2: amazing moment there.

963
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:23,360
Speaker 14: Yeah, and I think you do see, I mean I

964
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:24,960
Speaker 14: think there are two things happening. One is that the

965
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 14: original reason that they started these groups, which was that

966
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:30,239
Speaker 14: there was no safe space in their view, sort of

967
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:32,040
Speaker 14: you know, I don't know to I mean, it was

968
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 14: basically true if you felt like the progressives had gone

969
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:37,800
Speaker 14: too far, you were going to get beat up on Twitter,

970
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:39,640
Speaker 14: and they felt like they wanted a place to talk,

971
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:41,160
Speaker 14: to have open conversations.

972
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:43,600
Speaker 9: In general, the notion that you should have your political.

973
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:46,280
Speaker 14: Conversations in an open air in saying asylum like Twitter

974
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:48,960
Speaker 14: is you know, I actually don't think I think that's

975
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:51,400
Speaker 14: a pretty justifiable impulse that you don't want.

976
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 9: To do that.

977
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:54,680
Speaker 14: But now, of course, since Elon bought Twitter, with the

978
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:58,160
Speaker 14: rise of substack and a whole podcast and all these

979
00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:01,120
Speaker 14: alternative media channels, there are lots of places that you

980
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:04,800
Speaker 14: could have conservative conversations. And so I think they I

981
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:06,880
Speaker 14: mean this, you know, this being an early entry actually

982
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:11,840
Speaker 14: in a place some pretty heterodox conversations this show. And

983
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:14,160
Speaker 14: so I think the point of these spaces has eroded

984
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 14: a little bit. I mean, Andreson says that he sort

985
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:18,560
Speaker 14: of feels like this era is drawing to an end.

986
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 14: The other things that the consensus they built and kind

987
00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:23,360
Speaker 14: of talk themselves into that Donald Trump was going to

988
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:26,200
Speaker 14: be this sort of ideal leader for you know, a

989
00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:29,319
Speaker 14: Silicon valley that is most focused on something in recent

990
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:31,919
Speaker 14: talked about in a twenty twenty essay called It's Time

991
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:35,000
Speaker 14: to Build, which is most focused on let's like race

992
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:38,440
Speaker 14: to launch rockets and you know, robots and all these

993
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:41,680
Speaker 14: new products and into sort of an economic boom that is.

994
00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:43,640
Speaker 9: Rooted by the way in free trade.

995
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:46,640
Speaker 14: They really just missed the tariff thing, like did not

996
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:49,040
Speaker 14: when Trump was talking about tariffs. They were not listening

997
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:51,960
Speaker 14: and they are like genuinely very very upset about that.

998
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:56,160
Speaker 5: Well, that's interesting because they were also sort of confident

999
00:51:56,239 --> 00:51:59,279
Speaker 5: that they would be able to stack the administration or

1000
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:01,520
Speaker 5: that the administration and be really favorable to them. And

1001
00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:03,880
Speaker 5: one of the things that the story helped me understand

1002
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:07,800
Speaker 5: is just what was going on behind the scenes, because

1003
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:10,479
Speaker 5: you could kind of without knowing this, you could kind

1004
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:14,560
Speaker 5: of see that there were new alignments and groups of

1005
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:19,319
Speaker 5: people who were expressing similar thoughts at similar times. And

1006
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:21,759
Speaker 5: I think this just like blows it all wide open.

1007
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:24,120
Speaker 5: You can kind of see the background of it. And

1008
00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:25,879
Speaker 5: I want to ask Ben about one of the things

1009
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:28,040
Speaker 5: that stands out to me, which is just the David

1010
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:31,960
Speaker 5: Snacks message that Krystal put on the screen recently was

1011
00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:36,040
Speaker 5: reflective of how much this chat mattered to them, or

1012
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:38,799
Speaker 5: these chats I should say, mattered to them, Like it's

1013
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:43,080
Speaker 5: very bizarre how much they seem to care about the

1014
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:46,080
Speaker 5: quality of the discussion that it's like angering them to

1015
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:48,560
Speaker 5: be surrounded by people who have trumped arrangement syndrome. Like,

1016
00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:51,319
Speaker 5: they really seemed to be relying on these chats as

1017
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:54,320
Speaker 5: places that were shaping the way that they thought, shaping

1018
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:56,000
Speaker 5: the way they thought about other people, shaping the way

1019
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:59,520
Speaker 5: they thought about the world. My takeaway from that exchange

1020
00:52:59,560 --> 00:53:02,040
Speaker 5: is just how important these chats seemed to be. They

1021
00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:04,640
Speaker 5: weren't something that was happening in the background. This was

1022
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:06,319
Speaker 5: like a really active part of the way they were

1023
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:07,440
Speaker 5: working through the world.

1024
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:11,360
Speaker 14: Yeah, I mean, as somebody who's pretty who is I

1025
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:14,440
Speaker 14: mean probably mostly beaten my addiction to Twitter, But has

1026
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:16,759
Speaker 14: the times in my life been like very had my

1027
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:20,200
Speaker 14: brain rewired by social media? I think you kind of

1028
00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:22,680
Speaker 14: understand if you've been there, like how a sort of

1029
00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:26,239
Speaker 14: really vibrant conversation between smart people can just sort of

1030
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:28,719
Speaker 14: pull you in and particularly during the pandemic.

1031
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:31,080
Speaker 9: I mean, this was this, like, I mean, and somebody told.

1032
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:33,319
Speaker 14: Me Andresen was spending like twenty hours on these some

1033
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:37,279
Speaker 14: days and the overwhelming reflet I mean, my first way

1034
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:39,879
Speaker 14: I ran across these would be friends or sources being

1035
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:42,600
Speaker 14: like this is crazy. Marc Andreessen is blowing up my

1036
00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:45,960
Speaker 14: phone like that's so cool. But also what you know,

1037
00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:46,960
Speaker 14: like he's.

1038
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:48,680
Speaker 4: Very important to have something better to do.

1039
00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 14: Yeah, yeah, And all of them were like, you know,

1040
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:53,120
Speaker 14: he should be busier than I am, and yet I

1041
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:55,600
Speaker 14: can't keep up with the text. And he's in like

1042
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:58,759
Speaker 14: dozens of these groups, and any other given person is

1043
00:53:58,760 --> 00:53:59,719
Speaker 14: in one or two of them.

1044
00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:03,000
Speaker 2: Typically the wealthier you are, I think, the less busy

1045
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:04,640
Speaker 2: you actually are is the reality.

1046
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:06,000
Speaker 4: But anyway, go on in.

1047
00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:09,399
Speaker 14: The dreamy they definitely something One of the jokes going

1048
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:11,600
Speaker 14: around was that somebody repeated to me is that in

1049
00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 14: Maslow's hierarchy of needs, at the very very pinnacle is posting.

1050
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:18,279
Speaker 4: I think there really might be something to that.

1051
00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:22,880
Speaker 2: I'm curious a little bit more of the makeup of

1052
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:25,879
Speaker 2: who was in the group. Was it just more of

1053
00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:28,560
Speaker 2: the tech right figures? Were there some of the og

1054
00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:32,319
Speaker 2: maga types, and how much is the quote unquote like

1055
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:37,320
Speaker 2: independent right wing influencer community influenced by like you know, whatever,

1056
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:40,040
Speaker 2: prob whatever these billionaires happened to think on a given day.

1057
00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:43,120
Speaker 14: So I don't have a complete list either of the

1058
00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:45,320
Speaker 14: groups or of the of who was in them, but

1059
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:47,239
Speaker 14: I think there were lots and lots of groups. This

1060
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:52,759
Speaker 14: is like a whole archipelago, the it and so I think,

1061
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:54,879
Speaker 14: you know, a lot is very Silicon Valley centric though,

1062
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:55,640
Speaker 14: like you know.

1063
00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:59,800
Speaker 9: When when the when the.

1064
00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:00,919
Speaker 14: Open Ai stuff was, you know, the sort of coup

1065
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:03,600
Speaker 14: attempt was going down, people were telling about being in

1066
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:06,880
Speaker 14: a group with Sam Altman, like watching him react to

1067
00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:10,200
Speaker 14: posts in the group. As this whole story is playing out.

1068
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:13,279
Speaker 14: When there was a run on Silicon Valley Bank that

1069
00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:15,960
Speaker 14: was really largely through these WhatsApp groups. The reason that

1070
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:19,640
Speaker 14: bank collapsed so fast is that all these big investors

1071
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:22,279
Speaker 14: are texting each other into a panic, which is how

1072
00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:23,160
Speaker 14: bank runs happen.

1073
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:28,160
Speaker 9: And wow, way, yeah, I mean.

1074
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:30,840
Speaker 14: It was Bloomberg Sport didn't explain which groups it was,

1075
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:34,080
Speaker 14: but Bloomberg reported that at the time. Oh wow, you know,

1076
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:36,040
Speaker 14: I don't think Musk personally was in these groups, but

1077
00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:39,560
Speaker 14: he's obviously a huge kind of they kind of orbit

1078
00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:42,399
Speaker 14: him a bit, and a lot of people around him

1079
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:44,880
Speaker 14: were in them. No sure Peter Teal was, or at

1080
00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:47,080
Speaker 14: least not in the big ones, but also sort of

1081
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:49,120
Speaker 14: his world and recent is by far the most kind

1082
00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:51,080
Speaker 14: of influential central figure in them.

1083
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:54,160
Speaker 2: And so how much of the how much have the

1084
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:59,760
Speaker 2: tariffs caused a rift even you know, within this this world,

1085
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:03,920
Speaker 2: this worldling archiple eco as you called it, How significant

1086
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:06,239
Speaker 2: have they been in creating a genuine rift there?

1087
00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:10,000
Speaker 14: I think, as you see in public, like very because

1088
00:56:10,239 --> 00:56:13,080
Speaker 14: you know, ultimately I do think people sort of you know,

1089
00:56:13,120 --> 00:56:15,880
Speaker 14: people like us in Washington, New York often read these

1090
00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:19,520
Speaker 14: Silicon Valley people as basically political and ideological figures, but

1091
00:56:19,560 --> 00:56:22,640
Speaker 14: they are basically entrepreneurs and spend most of their time

1092
00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:26,880
Speaker 14: thinking about investments in companies and could not believe that

1093
00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:29,520
Speaker 14: Trump would do something this dumb. And there's a guy

1094
00:56:29,600 --> 00:56:32,320
Speaker 14: named Bilagi Strinivasan who was another one of the really

1095
00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:35,160
Speaker 14: big kind of dominant chattery voices in these.

1096
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:36,040
Speaker 9: Groups, who has written.

1097
00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:37,279
Speaker 14: And by the way, they're saying the same things in

1098
00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:39,759
Speaker 14: public and in private, as is often true, like you

1099
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:42,960
Speaker 14: get to the very core of the like inner Sanctum

1100
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:45,440
Speaker 14: sanctauram of the most important people in the world. And

1101
00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:47,280
Speaker 14: what they're saying is, hey, did you see that tweet

1102
00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:48,160
Speaker 14: by Taylor Lorenz?

1103
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:50,080
Speaker 8: You know.

1104
00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:52,080
Speaker 9: So it's not like they're saying in power for.

1105
00:56:52,120 --> 00:56:54,360
Speaker 14: What they're saying in public, just they're just there's just

1106
00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:56,200
Speaker 14: more like personal disappointment about it.

1107
00:56:56,880 --> 00:57:00,480
Speaker 4: Interesting. Interesting, This is absolutely wild.

1108
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:03,560
Speaker 2: The Silicon Valley Bank thing is wild too, just because

1109
00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:07,200
Speaker 2: you know, just the real world impact there. And I

1110
00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:09,200
Speaker 2: suspect also, I mean, David sax was one of the

1111
00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:12,359
Speaker 2: people most aggressively pushing for a bailout. I would guess

1112
00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:15,200
Speaker 2: that some of that, like messaging, was also coordinated within

1113
00:57:15,239 --> 00:57:17,840
Speaker 2: these chats, are being floated and surface within these chats for.

1114
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:20,680
Speaker 9: Sure, and it's really influential on the administration.

1115
00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:23,160
Speaker 14: I mean, somebody told me that they had the impression

1116
00:57:23,200 --> 00:57:26,120
Speaker 14: that these these public arguments with Mark Cuban that have

1117
00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:28,960
Speaker 14: been going on all your because chathamass was intended to be,

1118
00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:31,560
Speaker 14: you know, a more centrist place or at least a place

1119
00:57:31,600 --> 00:57:33,360
Speaker 14: where you can kind of pull normies to the right

1120
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:35,560
Speaker 14: depending on who you ask it.

1121
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:38,439
Speaker 9: So so there's some Democrats in there.

1122
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:40,160
Speaker 14: But somebody who was saying to me they felt like

1123
00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:42,480
Speaker 14: arguing with Mark Cuban was a way to audition for

1124
00:57:42,520 --> 00:57:46,640
Speaker 14: the Trump administration and that people have gotten jobs through

1125
00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:48,200
Speaker 14: these groups for sure, And you see, like I mean,

1126
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:50,440
Speaker 14: Sacks obviously is a huge role in the administration, but

1127
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:54,480
Speaker 14: there's a number of people who've gone into various jobs.

1128
00:57:55,760 --> 00:57:59,400
Speaker 2: Who were some of the others who left along with

1129
00:57:59,720 --> 00:58:02,440
Speaker 2: David Sachs. We saw the you know, the screenshot that

1130
00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:05,920
Speaker 2: had him and Tucker and one of the Winklevoss twins.

1131
00:58:07,240 --> 00:58:09,320
Speaker 2: Who are the people who are still in and who

1132
00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:10,120
Speaker 2: are the people who.

1133
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:13,240
Speaker 14: Are like, ah, I kind of I don't have a listration,

1134
00:58:14,080 --> 00:58:15,600
Speaker 14: you know, I don't have a list. I honestly feel

1135
00:58:15,640 --> 00:58:17,560
Speaker 14: like I just got a tiny snapshot of this, and

1136
00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:19,520
Speaker 14: you know, one of the things that's disappearing messages, and

1137
00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:22,160
Speaker 14: so maybe there was some crazy person out there who

1138
00:58:22,200 --> 00:58:24,160
Speaker 14: was screen chatting everything. I kind of hope so, because

1139
00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:27,880
Speaker 14: it's a really interesting piece of intellectual history. But I

1140
00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:31,840
Speaker 14: basically publish everything I knew, which is then a complete picture.

1141
00:58:32,200 --> 00:58:33,800
Speaker 2: Do you see a tie over between this and the

1142
00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:36,760
Speaker 2: signal Gate controversy with with Peate tag Zev, Like Emily

1143
00:58:36,800 --> 00:58:40,560
Speaker 2: was saying, apparently Republicans just love signal chats totally.

1144
00:58:40,640 --> 00:58:42,320
Speaker 9: I mean, lots of people work in love signal.

1145
00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:43,920
Speaker 14: You just saw like a comfort of like, hey, let's

1146
00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:46,080
Speaker 14: jump on a signal chat. That means they're in signal

1147
00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:48,640
Speaker 14: chats all the time. By the way, like signals amazing,

1148
00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:51,240
Speaker 14: that's great, Like the Signal is by far the best

1149
00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:54,360
Speaker 14: and most secure app, and everyone should be in signal

1150
00:58:54,440 --> 00:58:56,920
Speaker 14: chats all the time. Like I'm I think that, I mean,

1151
00:58:56,960 --> 00:58:58,480
Speaker 14: I think you should not. If you would not like

1152
00:58:58,520 --> 00:59:00,360
Speaker 14: to have Jeffrey Goldberg in your signal chat, do not

1153
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:04,360
Speaker 14: add him. And I'm not an expert in sort of

1154
00:59:04,360 --> 00:59:08,520
Speaker 14: classification issues, but it is actually as these things go.

1155
00:59:09,280 --> 00:59:11,680
Speaker 14: And again maybe not if you're in Russia, Steve Whitcoff,

1156
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:15,160
Speaker 14: but because it doesn't if your device has been compromised,

1157
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:18,920
Speaker 14: it doesn't protect you. But it really is an incredible

1158
00:59:18,960 --> 00:59:21,600
Speaker 14: piece of technology and if you care about privacy, we

1159
00:59:21,600 --> 00:59:23,120
Speaker 14: should all be in signal shots all the time.

1160
00:59:23,560 --> 00:59:25,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean we use it for our show planning.

1161
00:59:25,880 --> 00:59:27,680
Speaker 2: Go ahead, him, Yes we do. Oh I was going

1162
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:28,240
Speaker 2: to say, yeah.

1163
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:30,920
Speaker 5: Just my last question is how active are these Did

1164
00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:33,600
Speaker 5: you get an indication of how the chat reacted or

1165
00:59:33,600 --> 00:59:37,440
Speaker 5: how the chats reacted to your story yesterday, Did any

1166
00:59:37,480 --> 00:59:39,120
Speaker 5: of that trickle down to you?

1167
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:41,520
Speaker 14: You know, nobody has sent me any screenshots. I mean,

1168
00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:44,000
Speaker 14: one thing that I honestly find kind of endearing about

1169
00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:45,720
Speaker 14: this is like a lot of people find these.

1170
00:59:45,560 --> 00:59:47,800
Speaker 9: Incredibly lovely and rewarding, and a lot of.

1171
00:59:47,760 --> 00:59:49,640
Speaker 14: People who talk to me on the record or off

1172
00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:53,240
Speaker 14: the record wouldn't share screenshots because they didn't feel you know,

1173
00:59:53,280 --> 00:59:54,920
Speaker 14: they felt like they wanted to talk about.

1174
00:59:54,680 --> 00:59:56,320
Speaker 9: This thing that's been important to them, but didn't want

1175
00:59:56,320 --> 00:59:56,800
Speaker 9: to betray it.

1176
00:59:58,080 --> 00:59:58,840
Speaker 3: That's so interesting.

1177
00:59:58,800 --> 00:59:59,919
Speaker 9: But if that said you, if you're.

1178
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:02,200
Speaker 14: And you have, I would of course love to see

1179
01:00:02,200 --> 01:00:05,240
Speaker 14: how they're talking about that story. I've gotten some feedback actually, Honestly,

1180
01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:08,360
Speaker 14: the pre story thing was, of course the usual like

1181
01:00:08,440 --> 01:00:10,840
Speaker 14: the liberal journalists are coming to destroy us and be

1182
01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:13,560
Speaker 14: mean to us. Friend Bilagi tweeted that, and the schedule

1183
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:16,000
Speaker 14: Linsdale to we're tweeting about how I mean, obviously the

1184
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:18,439
Speaker 14: story was going to be all about them also because

1185
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:22,520
Speaker 14: they're extremely important. But then actually, since the story, I

1186
01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:25,000
Speaker 14: think I've been I've gotten a lot of feedback from

1187
01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:26,520
Speaker 14: people in the groups that they were surprised that it

1188
01:00:26,640 --> 01:00:27,800
Speaker 14: kind of captured the vibe.

1189
01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:32,720
Speaker 2: Very interesting. Fair if you don't mind sticking around. I

1190
01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:35,760
Speaker 2: wanted to get your reaction to on what's going down

1191
01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:38,520
Speaker 2: at sixty Minutes, so long time executive producer there Bill

1192
01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:43,200
Speaker 2: Owens resigned, saying, effectively, I can't be independent anymore, and

1193
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:46,120
Speaker 2: sixty Minutes took the extraordinary step of calling out their

1194
01:00:46,160 --> 01:00:47,200
Speaker 2: own parent company.

1195
01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:48,680
Speaker 4: Let's go ahead and take a listen to what Scott

1196
01:00:48,720 --> 01:00:49,600
Speaker 4: Pelly had to say.

1197
01:00:49,880 --> 01:00:53,520
Speaker 15: In tonight's last minute. A note on Bill Owens, who

1198
01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:57,800
Speaker 15: until this past week was executive producer of sixty Minutes.

1199
01:00:58,360 --> 01:01:02,280
Speaker 15: He was our boss. Bill was with CBS News nearly

1200
01:01:02,320 --> 01:01:06,320
Speaker 15: forty years. Twenty six years at sixty minutes. He covered

1201
01:01:06,360 --> 01:01:10,600
Speaker 15: the world, covered combat, the White House. His was a

1202
01:01:10,680 --> 01:01:14,960
Speaker 15: quest to open minds, not close them. If you've ever

1203
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:18,800
Speaker 15: worked hard for a boss because you admired him, then

1204
01:01:18,840 --> 01:01:24,240
Speaker 15: you understand what we've enjoyed here. Bill resigned Tuesday. It

1205
01:01:24,280 --> 01:01:27,120
Speaker 15: was hard on him and hard on us, but he

1206
01:01:27,160 --> 01:01:31,680
Speaker 15: did it for us and you. Stories we pursued for

1207
01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:36,480
Speaker 15: fifty seven years are often controversial lately, the Israel Gazo

1208
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:40,360
Speaker 15: War and the Trump administration. Bill made sure they were

1209
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:44,080
Speaker 15: accurate and fair. He was tough that way. But our

1210
01:01:44,120 --> 01:01:48,400
Speaker 15: parent company paramount is trying to complete a merger. The

1211
01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:53,720
Speaker 15: Trump administration must approve it. Paramount began to supervise our

1212
01:01:53,840 --> 01:01:58,560
Speaker 15: content in new ways. None of our stories has been blocked,

1213
01:01:58,640 --> 01:02:04,760
Speaker 15: but Bill felt he lost the independence that honest journalism requires.

1214
01:02:05,320 --> 01:02:08,480
Speaker 15: No one here is happy about it. But in resigning

1215
01:02:09,080 --> 01:02:13,480
Speaker 15: Bill proved one thing he was the right person to

1216
01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:16,040
Speaker 15: lead sixty minutes all along.

1217
01:02:16,720 --> 01:02:18,720
Speaker 4: So, Ben, what's your understanding of what went down here?

1218
01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:22,800
Speaker 14: I mean, you know, exactly exactly what he said and

1219
01:02:22,840 --> 01:02:25,520
Speaker 14: exactly as it seems so. In particular, what Max Tani,

1220
01:02:25,600 --> 01:02:28,840
Speaker 14: my colleague at Semaphore, reported was that Sherry Redstone, who

1221
01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:31,720
Speaker 14: owns the company, had been had started to ask for

1222
01:02:32,360 --> 01:02:35,760
Speaker 14: information about what was you know, what what kind of

1223
01:02:35,800 --> 01:02:38,000
Speaker 14: mean thing they might be saying about the Trump administration,

1224
01:02:39,240 --> 01:02:42,640
Speaker 14: which you know, which people internally took, as you know,

1225
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:44,880
Speaker 14: was brand new in the history of this, you know,

1226
01:02:44,920 --> 01:02:47,520
Speaker 14: probably the most important news show in this in the

1227
01:02:47,680 --> 01:02:53,160
Speaker 14: US history, and which they interpreted accurately as the parent

1228
01:02:53,200 --> 01:02:56,040
Speaker 14: company getting nervous that Donald Trump would you know, react

1229
01:02:56,080 --> 01:02:58,120
Speaker 14: to a story by blocking the merger and trying to

1230
01:02:58,120 --> 01:02:59,480
Speaker 14: figure out how to navigate that.

1231
01:03:00,920 --> 01:03:04,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, and sixty minutes.

1232
01:03:04,240 --> 01:03:05,960
Speaker 5: I didn't realize this, but I think he was like

1233
01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:10,000
Speaker 5: only the third executive producer of sixty minutes period, and

1234
01:03:10,360 --> 01:03:12,200
Speaker 5: then maybe you can speak to a little bit about

1235
01:03:12,240 --> 01:03:15,640
Speaker 5: how significant it is, particularly that this happened at sixty

1236
01:03:15,720 --> 01:03:19,120
Speaker 5: minutes in the whole like paramount CBS universe, because it

1237
01:03:19,120 --> 01:03:22,919
Speaker 5: seems like sixty minutes has traditionally sort of been maybe

1238
01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:26,480
Speaker 5: a bulwark against those types of winds shift.

1239
01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:29,040
Speaker 14: Yeah, I mean, you know, I don't know, but I

1240
01:03:29,040 --> 01:03:30,920
Speaker 14: think we all, like I came up in a media

1241
01:03:31,000 --> 01:03:34,720
Speaker 14: universe where there were kind of like fringy groups on

1242
01:03:34,760 --> 01:03:36,920
Speaker 14: the right and the left who would complain that like

1243
01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:39,600
Speaker 14: the owners of media were pulling the strings, you know,

1244
01:03:39,760 --> 01:03:42,360
Speaker 14: Like there was a group called Free Press which on

1245
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:44,680
Speaker 14: the left kind of NATO rite groups and you and

1246
01:03:44,720 --> 01:03:47,200
Speaker 14: if you worked in media, you'd be like, you're crazy,

1247
01:03:47,280 --> 01:03:48,120
Speaker 14: that's not how it works.

1248
01:03:48,120 --> 01:03:50,280
Speaker 9: I've never had my owner or bother me about anything.

1249
01:03:50,600 --> 01:03:52,920
Speaker 14: There's a strong tradition of separate like here that like

1250
01:03:52,960 --> 01:03:57,520
Speaker 14: you had, the journalists are left alone from newspapers, television, magazines, whatever,

1251
01:03:57,640 --> 01:04:00,000
Speaker 14: you know, and if it happened even the tiniest way,

1252
01:04:00,200 --> 01:04:01,040
Speaker 14: be a huge scandal.

1253
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:04,360
Speaker 9: And what happened in the last year is that has totally.

1254
01:04:04,040 --> 01:04:06,920
Speaker 14: Changed Trump's you know kind of focus on leverage and

1255
01:04:07,120 --> 01:04:11,600
Speaker 14: using financial leverage against his enemies and rivals has meant

1256
01:04:11,600 --> 01:04:14,320
Speaker 14: that He's very focused on Jeff Bezos, on Patrick Sonsheong

1257
01:04:14,400 --> 01:04:17,200
Speaker 14: and what he can and they are very sensitive to

1258
01:04:18,000 --> 01:04:21,520
Speaker 14: the way in which Trump will obviously use you know, space,

1259
01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:24,760
Speaker 14: it will use Jeff Bezos' space company against the Washington Post,

1260
01:04:24,760 --> 01:04:28,320
Speaker 14: things like that, and have responded by doing whatever he

1261
01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:31,160
Speaker 14: wants more or less incredibly effective.

1262
01:04:31,160 --> 01:04:33,320
Speaker 9: And I think you see that, you know, he Trump

1263
01:04:33,400 --> 01:04:34,200
Speaker 9: Trump went after.

1264
01:04:34,040 --> 01:04:36,520
Speaker 14: The Time Warner at and T Merger in his first term,

1265
01:04:36,960 --> 01:04:39,280
Speaker 14: lost the case, but did a lot of damage. And

1266
01:04:39,320 --> 01:04:41,880
Speaker 14: I think they it's it's CNN, which was inside Warner.

1267
01:04:41,880 --> 01:04:45,400
Speaker 14: They interpreted that as a you know, as a response

1268
01:04:45,440 --> 01:04:46,640
Speaker 14: to they didn't like their coverage.

1269
01:04:46,640 --> 01:04:48,120
Speaker 9: I mean, the government has a ton of power, the

1270
01:04:48,160 --> 01:04:49,200
Speaker 9: FCC and.

1271
01:04:49,160 --> 01:04:52,640
Speaker 14: Brandan Carr has totally openly said that, in his view,

1272
01:04:53,320 --> 01:04:56,520
Speaker 14: the Biden administration behaved in inappropriate political ways, and so

1273
01:04:56,520 --> 01:04:59,320
Speaker 14: the Trump administration is planning to behave in inappropriate political ways.

1274
01:04:59,320 --> 01:05:00,400
Speaker 9: He literally said that to.

1275
01:05:00,360 --> 01:05:03,320
Speaker 2: Me, how much do you think that this will change,

1276
01:05:03,440 --> 01:05:07,240
Speaker 2: you know, the character of our media a lot.

1277
01:05:07,320 --> 01:05:10,280
Speaker 14: I think these big corporate places are really afraid and

1278
01:05:10,560 --> 01:05:12,720
Speaker 14: by the way, are already very weak. I mean, part

1279
01:05:12,760 --> 01:05:15,040
Speaker 14: of it, of course, is that if sixty Minutes were

1280
01:05:15,560 --> 01:05:19,920
Speaker 14: a you know, and if Paramount, if CPS, whatever kind

1281
01:05:19,920 --> 01:05:22,920
Speaker 14: of collapsed merged parent company, there were were, as it

1282
01:05:23,040 --> 01:05:26,360
Speaker 14: was thirty years ago, a massively profitable juggernaut that could

1283
01:05:26,360 --> 01:05:29,120
Speaker 14: afford to tell the president to screw himself, it would.

1284
01:05:30,080 --> 01:05:31,920
Speaker 14: I think you'll see places that are It's actually interesting,

1285
01:05:31,960 --> 01:05:34,960
Speaker 14: like this is why the kind of financial health of

1286
01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:36,960
Speaker 14: media is so important. I mean, I think the New

1287
01:05:37,040 --> 01:05:39,560
Speaker 14: York Times, which is doing great, has a subscription base,

1288
01:05:40,200 --> 01:05:43,200
Speaker 14: will be able to be independent and stand up to

1289
01:05:43,200 --> 01:05:43,600
Speaker 14: the president.

1290
01:05:43,600 --> 01:05:45,240
Speaker 9: I think it's very hard for the Washington Post too,

1291
01:05:45,240 --> 01:05:45,760
Speaker 9: because it's.

1292
01:05:45,600 --> 01:05:48,800
Speaker 14: Dependent on a billionaire who seems to really want for

1293
01:05:48,840 --> 01:05:51,040
Speaker 14: the president to like it. But I think that stuff

1294
01:05:51,080 --> 01:05:52,160
Speaker 14: is totally real right now.

1295
01:05:53,800 --> 01:05:57,640
Speaker 5: And how much you got, well, yeah, I was just

1296
01:05:57,840 --> 01:05:59,320
Speaker 5: maybe we were going to ask the same question as

1297
01:05:59,440 --> 01:06:01,120
Speaker 5: just this was this is in the report a bit,

1298
01:06:01,200 --> 01:06:04,600
Speaker 5: But how much was this reflective of discomfort with Israel

1299
01:06:04,680 --> 01:06:07,760
Speaker 5: Gaza coverage versus Trump coverage. It seems like there was

1300
01:06:07,800 --> 01:06:08,880
Speaker 5: a little bit of both going on.

1301
01:06:10,640 --> 01:06:11,800
Speaker 9: Yeah, you know, I.

1302
01:06:11,720 --> 01:06:15,480
Speaker 14: Mean, I think it is fascinating the degree to which

1303
01:06:17,240 --> 01:06:20,840
Speaker 14: Israel is being used sort of as a cudgel against

1304
01:06:21,520 --> 01:06:26,680
Speaker 14: the administration's enemies. Oh, you know, I don't think that's

1305
01:06:26,760 --> 01:06:29,760
Speaker 14: why the Trump administration and why conservatives like that's not

1306
01:06:29,760 --> 01:06:32,520
Speaker 14: the sort of pre existing reason that they're upset at

1307
01:06:32,600 --> 01:06:35,680
Speaker 14: universities which they think are too left wing and which

1308
01:06:35,720 --> 01:06:38,520
Speaker 14: are very left wing, but it is the it's sort

1309
01:06:38,560 --> 01:06:40,840
Speaker 14: of the it's sort of the issue that has come

1310
01:06:40,880 --> 01:06:44,640
Speaker 14: to hand and the one that they're beating them with. Yeah,

1311
01:06:44,680 --> 01:06:48,560
Speaker 14: I mean, I haven't particularly got that impression at CBS,

1312
01:06:48,600 --> 01:06:51,920
Speaker 14: like I think the Sherry Redstone separately, the owner is

1313
01:06:51,960 --> 01:06:55,320
Speaker 14: I think unhappy with the you know, with critical coverage

1314
01:06:55,320 --> 01:06:58,520
Speaker 14: of Israel that's been reported separately. But and I'm sure

1315
01:06:58,560 --> 01:07:00,600
Speaker 14: Trump is happy to throw, you know, the kitchen sink

1316
01:07:00,640 --> 01:07:02,800
Speaker 14: of its enemies, and that's one of the that's one

1317
01:07:02,800 --> 01:07:03,640
Speaker 14: of the elements of it.

1318
01:07:04,480 --> 01:07:07,280
Speaker 9: But I don't think that's fundamentally what's driving it is.

1319
01:07:07,320 --> 01:07:10,200
Speaker 14: I mean, maybe it's Trump's concern for you know, the

1320
01:07:10,240 --> 01:07:12,720
Speaker 14: coverage of Israel gocopy straight up the middle, but I

1321
01:07:12,760 --> 01:07:14,040
Speaker 14: don't think that's his main concern.

1322
01:07:15,120 --> 01:07:17,960
Speaker 2: We've seen with some of the other civil society groups

1323
01:07:17,960 --> 01:07:22,640
Speaker 2: like with the law firms. We've seen with universities where

1324
01:07:22,680 --> 01:07:25,960
Speaker 2: there was an initial instinct to just completely capitulate to

1325
01:07:25,960 --> 01:07:28,760
Speaker 2: the Trump administration, and now there seems to be a

1326
01:07:28,760 --> 01:07:32,600
Speaker 2: little bit more backbone starting to grow. Do you see

1327
01:07:32,640 --> 01:07:35,440
Speaker 2: any sign of that with media organizations or do you

1328
01:07:35,440 --> 01:07:37,240
Speaker 2: feel like it just comes down to who has the

1329
01:07:37,280 --> 01:07:38,600
Speaker 2: finances to weather the storm?

1330
01:07:39,600 --> 01:07:39,800
Speaker 9: Yeah?

1331
01:07:39,840 --> 01:07:41,560
Speaker 14: I think, you know, the less, you know, Trump has

1332
01:07:41,640 --> 01:07:44,520
Speaker 14: seen his kind of this his momentum collapse in the

1333
01:07:44,560 --> 01:07:46,280
Speaker 14: sense that he could kind of run the table and

1334
01:07:46,320 --> 01:07:49,680
Speaker 14: do anything, sort of collapse with the tariffs, you know,

1335
01:07:49,760 --> 01:07:52,440
Speaker 14: with the sort of debacle of the tariff rollout, and

1336
01:07:52,520 --> 01:07:55,000
Speaker 14: so yeah, that has affected things a lot. I think also,

1337
01:07:55,720 --> 01:08:00,160
Speaker 14: right the I think that these places underestimated, whether it's

1338
01:08:00,200 --> 01:08:04,360
Speaker 14: Paul Weiss or Columbia, the internal backlash they'd get from capitulating,

1339
01:08:04,600 --> 01:08:09,200
Speaker 14: from students, from donors, from lawyers, right, Like, every big

1340
01:08:09,280 --> 01:08:12,200
Speaker 14: law firm that did not capitulate is currently poaching Paul

1341
01:08:12,240 --> 01:08:16,760
Speaker 14: Wes's associates, right because it's embarrassing to work there. And

1342
01:08:17,680 --> 01:08:19,240
Speaker 14: you know, even I mean, honestly, I think even if

1343
01:08:19,280 --> 01:08:23,919
Speaker 14: you agree one hundred percent with the criticisms, it's embarrassing

1344
01:08:23,960 --> 01:08:27,680
Speaker 14: to work there. And so that's yeah. I think that's

1345
01:08:27,680 --> 01:08:29,000
Speaker 14: true in media too. I think, I mean, I think,

1346
01:08:29,040 --> 01:08:32,080
Speaker 14: you know, there's this illusion. I think the CBS people

1347
01:08:32,200 --> 01:08:35,880
Speaker 14: and believe that basically, like you know, sometimes like when

1348
01:08:35,880 --> 01:08:38,720
Speaker 14: you're selling a company, old management will do all the

1349
01:08:38,720 --> 01:08:41,560
Speaker 14: hard stuff, they'll fire everybody and then neon managing it

1350
01:08:41,560 --> 01:08:43,599
Speaker 14: and be like, hey, we're the good guys, like welcome

1351
01:08:43,640 --> 01:08:45,200
Speaker 14: to your new home, Survivors.

1352
01:08:46,200 --> 01:08:47,960
Speaker 9: And I think that this is the philosophy here.

1353
01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:50,000
Speaker 14: It's like the old company will do all this bad

1354
01:08:50,000 --> 01:08:53,000
Speaker 14: stuff with Trump and then Skydance, which is buying it,

1355
01:08:53,320 --> 01:08:55,679
Speaker 14: can say, hey, that was terrible, so sorry about that,

1356
01:08:56,240 --> 01:08:59,400
Speaker 14: although of course they're coordinating. And I think it's a

1357
01:08:59,479 --> 01:09:01,599
Speaker 14: huge mistake, like look at look at what happened when

1358
01:09:03,200 --> 01:09:05,880
Speaker 14: there was like a year and a half when Warner

1359
01:09:05,920 --> 01:09:07,960
Speaker 14: had bought CNN, and all they wanted like they're not

1360
01:09:08,000 --> 01:09:09,280
Speaker 14: really in the news business, they don't want to be

1361
01:09:09,280 --> 01:09:10,600
Speaker 14: in the news business. They just wanted it to be

1362
01:09:10,720 --> 01:09:13,960
Speaker 14: chill and like instead it was an absolute garbage fire

1363
01:09:14,040 --> 01:09:14,160
Speaker 14: for a.

1364
01:09:14,200 --> 01:09:16,000
Speaker 9: Year and a half. And I think that I think

1365
01:09:16,040 --> 01:09:16,920
Speaker 9: that the.

1366
01:09:16,880 --> 01:09:19,920
Speaker 14: Idea that these folks in Hollywood Skuydance, who are buying

1367
01:09:19,960 --> 01:09:23,640
Speaker 14: Paramount mostly for the entertainment assets. Imagine that just like

1368
01:09:23,680 --> 01:09:27,000
Speaker 14: they're going to like bring a news organization that is

1369
01:09:27,080 --> 01:09:31,000
Speaker 14: just like literally in flames on board into their company,

1370
01:09:31,000 --> 01:09:33,520
Speaker 14: and that that will be like a RESTful and normal experience.

1371
01:09:33,600 --> 01:09:34,880
Speaker 9: I think is not the case.

1372
01:09:36,120 --> 01:09:36,960
Speaker 3: Final thought for me.

1373
01:09:37,640 --> 01:09:40,120
Speaker 5: We talked obviously in an earlier segment about your group

1374
01:09:40,680 --> 01:09:44,080
Speaker 5: group chat story at Smophore, and now we're discussing sixty minutes.

1375
01:09:44,080 --> 01:09:46,679
Speaker 5: It seems like the theme between both of these stories

1376
01:09:46,880 --> 01:09:52,440
Speaker 5: is that American elites in business and media, in academia,

1377
01:09:52,560 --> 01:09:56,920
Speaker 5: in the legal world are actually experiencing a schism in

1378
01:09:56,960 --> 01:09:59,160
Speaker 5: a way that didn't happen and Trump one point zero,

1379
01:09:59,200 --> 01:10:02,120
Speaker 5: that there's this like survival mode maybe that people have

1380
01:10:02,320 --> 01:10:06,080
Speaker 5: entered and it's causing panic and it's causing decisions to

1381
01:10:06,120 --> 01:10:10,600
Speaker 5: be made rationally or otherwise, that it's really becoming a

1382
01:10:10,800 --> 01:10:13,559
Speaker 5: serious wedge in a way that it hadn't before. Ben,

1383
01:10:13,600 --> 01:10:15,439
Speaker 5: I don't know if you if that sounds right, or

1384
01:10:15,439 --> 01:10:17,960
Speaker 5: if you have any thoughts or pushback on them.

1385
01:10:18,040 --> 01:10:20,200
Speaker 14: Yeah, I know, I mean, I think that's a great point,

1386
01:10:20,240 --> 01:10:21,559
Speaker 14: and I think that I mean, one of the things

1387
01:10:21,600 --> 01:10:23,960
Speaker 14: that somebody said to me yesterday was that every day

1388
01:10:24,000 --> 01:10:27,519
Speaker 14: before was that whereas these signal groups were started because

1389
01:10:27,520 --> 01:10:30,080
Speaker 14: people were afraid to say conservative things on the internet

1390
01:10:30,160 --> 01:10:32,160
Speaker 14: and get beat up for it. Now, the thing that

1391
01:10:32,200 --> 01:10:33,960
Speaker 14: you can say in the signal group that you're scared

1392
01:10:34,000 --> 01:10:35,960
Speaker 14: to say in public is criticism of Donald Trump.

1393
01:10:36,520 --> 01:10:38,679
Speaker 3: Yeah. Really interesting.

1394
01:10:39,479 --> 01:10:39,759
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1395
01:10:39,800 --> 01:10:41,640
Speaker 2: And last last thing, Ben, you know, how do you

1396
01:10:41,640 --> 01:10:44,439
Speaker 2: think journalists should think about some of these choices? I mean,

1397
01:10:44,479 --> 01:10:47,400
Speaker 2: you have obviously Bill Owens resigning, Scott Pelly making the choice,

1398
01:10:47,439 --> 01:10:49,880
Speaker 2: and the sixty Minutes team presumably like we need to

1399
01:10:49,880 --> 01:10:52,960
Speaker 2: say something, but we're not going anywhere. We're going to

1400
01:10:53,000 --> 01:10:55,080
Speaker 2: stay here and continue to do the best that we can.

1401
01:10:55,439 --> 01:10:57,120
Speaker 2: You know, from an ethical perspective, how do you think

1402
01:10:57,200 --> 01:10:59,240
Speaker 2: journalists should think about these challenges?

1403
01:11:00,080 --> 01:11:00,439
Speaker 15: I don't know.

1404
01:11:00,479 --> 01:11:03,080
Speaker 14: I think it's like a tough situation and I don't

1405
01:11:03,080 --> 01:11:04,880
Speaker 14: want to tell people how to do their jobs. I mean,

1406
01:11:04,920 --> 01:11:07,840
Speaker 14: I do think it sort of brings home and I'm

1407
01:11:07,880 --> 01:11:09,840
Speaker 14: genuinely not trying to like talk my book into your

1408
01:11:09,880 --> 01:11:13,800
Speaker 14: book here, but there you see why news organizations ought

1409
01:11:13,800 --> 01:11:16,519
Speaker 14: to be independent because they become a headache for the

1410
01:11:16,520 --> 01:11:18,720
Speaker 14: parent company, and the parent company has an obligation to

1411
01:11:18,760 --> 01:11:22,120
Speaker 14: its shareholders to like get the merger through, and you

1412
01:11:22,160 --> 01:11:25,000
Speaker 14: have these maniacs at sixty minutes insulting the president. This

1413
01:11:25,040 --> 01:11:26,400
Speaker 14: is from the point of view of the you know,

1414
01:11:26,439 --> 01:11:28,920
Speaker 14: the lawyers and bankers running the merger, like that's not

1415
01:11:29,000 --> 01:11:33,519
Speaker 14: a normal company like that CBS News shouldn't be inside

1416
01:11:33,520 --> 01:11:35,880
Speaker 14: that company. But on the other hand, that means they've

1417
01:11:35,880 --> 01:11:37,240
Speaker 14: got to figure out a way to run a business

1418
01:11:37,240 --> 01:11:38,920
Speaker 14: on their own. I mean, it's a it's not an

1419
01:11:38,920 --> 01:11:43,240
Speaker 14: easy thing. But you see why sticking independent news organizations

1420
01:11:43,280 --> 01:11:46,240
Speaker 14: inside these conglomerates that have all sorts of other hostages

1421
01:11:46,280 --> 01:11:48,280
Speaker 14: to fortune becomes a real problem.

1422
01:11:48,800 --> 01:11:52,320
Speaker 2: So basically you're saying, when Bernie was criticizing Jeff Bezos

1423
01:11:52,360 --> 01:11:54,160
Speaker 2: owning the Washington Post, he was right.

1424
01:11:55,280 --> 01:11:58,559
Speaker 14: You know when I started, he was right, Bernie Bernie.

1425
01:11:58,560 --> 01:12:00,680
Speaker 14: Bernie was right about everything. When I was at BuzzFeed,

1426
01:12:00,880 --> 01:12:02,559
Speaker 14: I remember I sat down with him and the first

1427
01:12:02,560 --> 01:12:04,600
Speaker 14: thing he said was thank you for standing up to

1428
01:12:04,640 --> 01:12:07,519
Speaker 14: the corporate media. And I was sort of like senator,

1429
01:12:07,680 --> 01:12:10,080
Speaker 14: like and recent Horrorwitz is one of our investors, Like

1430
01:12:10,120 --> 01:12:13,280
Speaker 14: we're like, we're never're like pretty capitalist, and like this

1431
01:12:13,479 --> 01:12:16,320
Speaker 14: idea that the corporate media is like influenced by its owners,

1432
01:12:16,360 --> 01:12:18,280
Speaker 14: Like that's not that's not really how it works, and

1433
01:12:18,320 --> 01:12:19,840
Speaker 14: I think he's been totally vindicated.

1434
01:12:20,280 --> 01:12:22,640
Speaker 3: He was like, the billionaires are paying for the listicles.

1435
01:12:22,720 --> 01:12:23,439
Speaker 3: You're telling me that.

1436
01:12:24,960 --> 01:12:26,679
Speaker 14: I'm not sure he was a reader, and I think

1437
01:12:26,680 --> 01:12:28,680
Speaker 14: he may have confused us with there's a left wing

1438
01:12:28,720 --> 01:12:30,160
Speaker 14: site called buzz Flash.

1439
01:12:30,600 --> 01:12:30,920
Speaker 4: Hmmm.

1440
01:12:31,320 --> 01:12:32,320
Speaker 3: I don't even interest that.

1441
01:12:32,640 --> 01:12:35,920
Speaker 14: He was, but I remember thinking, like, huh, this is

1442
01:12:36,040 --> 01:12:38,000
Speaker 14: not exactly how I think about my job.

1443
01:12:38,640 --> 01:12:40,880
Speaker 4: Amazing, Ben, Thank you so much.

1444
01:12:40,880 --> 01:12:43,080
Speaker 2: It's so great to have your insights, and you know,

1445
01:12:43,160 --> 01:12:46,200
Speaker 2: really appreciate your reporting on all of these things.

1446
01:12:46,240 --> 01:12:48,800
Speaker 9: Great to see you both. Give my regards to Megan Emily.

1447
01:12:49,080 --> 01:12:50,800
Speaker 3: Well do all right?

1448
01:12:50,840 --> 01:12:53,240
Speaker 2: That was fun hearing from Ben on those stories. Always

1449
01:12:53,360 --> 01:12:55,879
Speaker 2: his interesting insights into media in particular.

1450
01:12:56,520 --> 01:12:58,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, he was referring there at the end of that

1451
01:12:58,920 --> 01:13:02,200
Speaker 5: segment too. The last a couple times ago that was

1452
01:13:02,200 --> 01:13:04,559
Speaker 5: on Megan Kelly. She had just done an interview with

1453
01:13:04,720 --> 01:13:08,280
Speaker 5: Ben and she excoriated him for not kind of fully

1454
01:13:08,320 --> 01:13:11,160
Speaker 5: getting new media and I agree with her, still agree

1455
01:13:11,200 --> 01:13:13,519
Speaker 5: with her on that point, so stand by it. But

1456
01:13:13,640 --> 01:13:16,000
Speaker 5: it was good to have a friendly conversation with him,

1457
01:13:16,000 --> 01:13:19,720
Speaker 5: and that report was fantastic and like very worth going through.

1458
01:13:19,840 --> 01:13:22,639
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I have no idea what the Megan Kelly

1459
01:13:22,760 --> 01:13:25,240
Speaker 2: drama was, so I will just stay I'll stay unaligned

1460
01:13:25,479 --> 01:13:30,559
Speaker 2: in that conversation. I'll stay neutral on that one. However, Yes,

1461
01:13:30,720 --> 01:13:33,200
Speaker 2: great to see him, Great to see you. I think

1462
01:13:33,320 --> 01:13:36,920
Speaker 2: Ryan and Emily will be counterpoints per normal tomorrow, and

1463
01:13:37,040 --> 01:13:40,759
Speaker 2: I will be back on Thursday, maybe with soccer.

1464
01:13:41,040 --> 01:13:41,719
Speaker 4: I'm not sure.

1465
01:13:41,880 --> 01:13:44,280
Speaker 5: We'll see it could be baby time on Thursday.

1466
01:13:44,320 --> 01:13:46,120
Speaker 2: It could be baby time, so we're all on the

1467
01:13:46,120 --> 01:13:48,439
Speaker 2: lookout for that. In any case, thank you guys so

1468
01:13:48,520 --> 01:13:51,040
Speaker 2: much for watching and joining. Like I said earlier, if

1469
01:13:51,080 --> 01:13:53,240
Speaker 2: you're having trouble with Spotify, please check your email. If

1470
01:13:53,240 --> 01:13:56,120
Speaker 2: you're still having trouble, email us and we'll get it worked.

1471
01:13:55,920 --> 01:13:58,120
Speaker 4: Out for you. Love you guys and appreciate you, and

1472
01:13:58,160 --> 01:13:59,080
Speaker 4: we'll see you back here soon.

1473
01:14:00,479 --> 01:14:02,000
Speaker 9: Wanted Putt