Speaker 1: This call is from a correction facility, and it's subject
Speaker 1: to monitoring and recording.
Speaker 2: I can put athlete eleven and it hasn't been.
Speaker 3: Easy a hundred years.
Speaker 1: That's man.
Speaker 3: I'm a kid. I didn't do anything, you know, and uh,
Speaker 3: you know that was a that was real painful, man,
Speaker 3: you know, because my life was discarded as if you know,
Speaker 3: like I was a piece of trash or something, you know,
Speaker 3: one hundred years and I had dreams and I wanted
Speaker 3: to do things. I wasn't committing crimes, you know. I
Speaker 3: was a very good young man.
Speaker 4: That is what happens in so many cases. The cops
Speaker 4: have a hunch, because they're so smart at the scene,
Speaker 4: they have a hunch, and once they act on that hunch,
Speaker 4: they sort of developed tunnel vision and they take off
Speaker 4: marching in the wrong direction. And that happens in so
Speaker 4: many of these wrongful convictions.
Speaker 1: The opening to sell door and I'll walk down stif
Speaker 1: and I actually walked down stairs to be outside. It
Speaker 1: felt very strange to be, like I said, to be
Speaker 1: walking without no shackles on my feet. I thought it
Speaker 1: was a dream. But then again, it wasn't a dream.
Speaker 5: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. This
Speaker 5: is Jason Flamm. I'm your host, and today we have
Speaker 5: an extraordinary episode. I mean, I am I don't even
Speaker 5: I'm at a loss for words, but I'm going to
Speaker 5: introduce our guests right now. Fred Clay was wrongfully imprisoned
Speaker 5: at the age of sixteen and served thirty eight years
Speaker 5: for a murder he didn't commit. Fred, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1: Thank you very much, very long. I appreciate it very much.
Speaker 5: I always say I'm glad, I'm sorry you're here, but
Speaker 5: I'm glad you're here, and I want to start off
Speaker 5: by apologizing to you on behalf of the human race
Speaker 5: and America and people and just there's nothing that can
Speaker 5: be said, but let me just put that out there
Speaker 5: for starters and with us. Today is Chris Barrell. Chris
Speaker 5: Barrell is an investigative reporter with the nonprofit New England
Speaker 5: Center for Investigative Reporting, a WGBH News partner who does
Speaker 5: work on well, he's worked on your case. You're telling
Speaker 5: your story and as many others well as many others.
Speaker 5: So Chris, welcome, Glad you're here.
Speaker 6: Thanks very much, glad to be here.
Speaker 5: Chris, how did you first come across this story and
Speaker 5: why did it impact you so much that you wanted
Speaker 5: to do an article about it.
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, I work for the New England Center for
Speaker 6: Investigative Reporting. We've done several stories on wrongful conviction cases
Speaker 6: and specifically this issue of you know, what happens afterwards,
Speaker 6: because we do know there's a fair amount of media
Speaker 6: attention when this happen and somebody's served a long amount
Speaker 6: of time for a crime that they that they didn't
Speaker 6: do and they're released and it's you know, a lot
Speaker 6: of applause and a lot of TV cameras. So I
Speaker 6: was there the day he got out, as was a
Speaker 6: lot of other media. But the question came up, well,
Speaker 6: what is what is life really like? You know, once
Speaker 6: this kind of once the applause fades, what is what
Speaker 6: is what is a person's life really like? So initially
Speaker 6: Fred was not that keen on me proffering this idea
Speaker 6: of following him around at different points over the course
Speaker 6: of about a year, but I met with him on
Speaker 6: a couple occasions and he seemed open to it, and
Speaker 6: so we just struck up this this intervals of trying
Speaker 6: to meet up and I wanted to see him in
Speaker 6: different situations, trying to navigate again the basic survival, the blocks,
Speaker 6: the basic blocks of survival. How do you, how do
Speaker 6: you find shelter, how do you how do you feed yourself?
Speaker 6: And so for the first few months he didn't he
Speaker 6: didn't have a job. He had a little bit of
Speaker 6: money from from a go fund Me site and he
Speaker 6: had food stamps. And his first job was working for UPS,
Speaker 6: which was very uneven work. He'd show up for a
Speaker 6: shift and they'd tell him, well, we've only got a
Speaker 6: couple hours work instead of a full shift, and he'd
Speaker 6: walk home through the snow in the street because people
Speaker 6: didn't show their sidewalks, and we get a lot of
Speaker 6: snow up in northern Massachusetts. And it wasn't until sometime
Speaker 6: late winter, early spring that he got this job precision
Speaker 6: grinding aviation parts, grinding metal, and he seemed really grateful
Speaker 6: to have that work. But as everybody knows, rent in
Speaker 6: most cities in America is really high, and the most
Speaker 6: he could afford was basically a room and a basement.
Speaker 6: And he said at least once that that room kind
Speaker 6: of reminded him, reminded him of prison. All it had
Speaker 6: was a tiny window, not a whole lot of light
Speaker 6: coming into it. And that was the best that his
Speaker 6: circumstance this can allow.
Speaker 5: So, Frederick, this is such an insane story because even
Speaker 5: though we're in our eighth season of Wrongful Conviction, we've
Speaker 5: told over seventy stories already. H and Just and I've
Speaker 5: been working for twenty five years in this struggle. I'm
Speaker 5: the founding board member of the Innocence Project. I thought
Speaker 5: I heard everything until I heard your story. And you know,
Speaker 5: seeing the pictures of you as a sixteen year old
Speaker 5: child really just scared out of your mind faced with
Speaker 5: this nightmare situation. It almost it almost reminded me of
Speaker 5: Emmett Till or something. It was just so it just
Speaker 5: hurts my heart. But let's go back to that time.
Speaker 5: You were living in a foster home.
Speaker 1: At that time, right, Yes, I was living a foster home.
Speaker 1: I was placed in it by DYS. I have some
Speaker 1: juvenile cases and I got convicted too. I got sentenced
Speaker 1: to like to DYS and he sent me to Boys
Speaker 1: into Center and stay there for a little while month
Speaker 1: from there to a program stay of football six months,
Speaker 1: I believe, and they decided that I need to be
Speaker 1: in a falseter home. So I was in a fossil
Speaker 1: home at that.
Speaker 5: Time, and you were not a big guy either. You
Speaker 5: were like I mean, I remember reading that when this happened,
Speaker 5: you were like five four, about one hundred pounds. You
Speaker 5: were obviously ill prepared for any type of scenario, Like
Speaker 5: there's no one's prepared for it. But let's go back
Speaker 5: to it and Chris jump in anytime. I mean, how
Speaker 5: did this happen?
Speaker 1: Was?
Speaker 5: Why was Fred targeted for? This was the murder of
Speaker 5: a taxi driver in Massachusetts? Right? And can you give
Speaker 5: us a little background on that?
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, I mean, the way I understand it is.
Speaker 6: Fred was arrested just a few weeks after turning sixteen,
Speaker 6: charged with the murder of a cab driver. The really
Speaker 6: crazy part of the story was that one of another
Speaker 6: cab driver who saw three young Africa American men get
Speaker 6: into a cab, said he was able to id one
Speaker 6: of them another the second person he couldn't id, and
Speaker 6: the police used the practice they used back then of
Speaker 6: hypnotizing a witness in a case, believing that the brain
Speaker 6: functioned a lot like a videotape and that you could
Speaker 6: put a witness under hypnosis and ask them to rewind
Speaker 6: to a certain date and time, and suddenly your brain
Speaker 6: would see things that hadn't recalled before. And that was
Speaker 6: one of the pieces that led police to arrest and
Speaker 6: charge Fred and ultimately for prosecutors to convict him.
Speaker 5: But this Fred, this witness, how did he come to
Speaker 5: identify you? Were you anywhere near the scene at the time?
Speaker 5: Did you know these people?
Speaker 1: I was not in the scene. I was in a
Speaker 1: Foster home and sleeping in the bed. I really don't
Speaker 1: know how he became to identify me. I really can't
Speaker 1: answer that question. He claims he saw the picture of
Speaker 1: the cab driver of the cab in the front page
Speaker 1: of the Boston Globe, and he recognized the cap number.
Speaker 1: I guess one of his friends used to break that
Speaker 1: cap and he thought, he's, uh, the perpetrators get into
Speaker 1: the cab the previous night, and I guess he just
Speaker 1: went to the police station and tried to cooperate with
Speaker 1: the police. There was hypnosis involved. I think he was
Speaker 1: showing my picture a few times, like four or five,
Speaker 1: six times, and when they hypnotized them, instead of him
Speaker 1: actually placing it, you know, actually viewing the people, the
Speaker 1: perpetrator at the scene of crime. He's sort of like mugshot.
Speaker 1: Sort of my faith from the mugshot.
Speaker 5: Was in his mind, right, So yeah, I mean what
Speaker 5: we know that hypnosis, Going back to what Chris was saying,
Speaker 5: hypnosis will make you see things you haven't seen before,
Speaker 5: but they will may not have any collection to reality. Right,
Speaker 5: that's the problem.
Speaker 1: I don't think. I don't think the hypnosi had anything
Speaker 1: to do with when someone shows you a photograph five
Speaker 1: or six times, that face is somewhat imprinted in your mind.
Speaker 5: Of course. I mean, that's one thing we do know
Speaker 5: about the mind is if you keep getting repeated the
Speaker 5: same image repeated over and over again, it's going to
Speaker 5: play tricks on your mind, and your mind will start
Speaker 5: to go in that place.
Speaker 1: And was this That's why I think what happened. He
Speaker 1: just does your mind played his mind played tricks on something.
Speaker 1: I really can't I really can't answer that question how
Speaker 1: he picked me out? But he did.
Speaker 5: Was there was this robbery at night?
Speaker 1: Yes, it's four o'clock in the morning, four.
Speaker 5: O'clock in the morning, so it's pitch dark outside, right,
Speaker 5: and this guy supposedly saw the robbery, right, But we
Speaker 5: know how I mean, and we also know that the
Speaker 5: brain when you witness a violent crime I wouldn't identification
Speaker 5: is notoriously unreliable in the first place. If somebody busts
Speaker 5: into the studio now and attacks one of us, and
Speaker 5: then they put us in a lineup, there's almost just
Speaker 5: as much chance that someone who wasn't here will identify
Speaker 5: the correct perpetrator or not get the wrong perpetrator the
Speaker 5: same way that we will, which is a crazy and
Speaker 5: people listening going, that's not true, but it has been
Speaker 5: proven over and over again. But it's the brain goes crazy,
Speaker 5: so to speak, because of adrenaline and other factors when
Speaker 5: you're in the presence when you're actually in danger. Right, So,
Speaker 5: when you're either the victim or when you're witness to
Speaker 5: a violent crime, as this one was, we know that
Speaker 5: your senses are altered because of the fact that you're
Speaker 5: just scared out of your brain literally. So and this
Speaker 5: was one of those cases, right, this was a shooting.
Speaker 6: Yeah, there's two. I'll jump in here to help clarify this.
Speaker 6: So the witness we're talking about, who was hypnotized by police,
Speaker 6: had claimed that he'd seen these these young African American
Speaker 6: males get into this cab. Then the cab goes or
Speaker 6: allegedly goes to a housing project a little bit south
Speaker 6: of the city in Roslindale. And then there was another
Speaker 6: witness that also had pretty serious question marks around how
Speaker 6: the police interacted with this witness, and this other witness
Speaker 6: claimed that he did actually see the shooting out of
Speaker 6: a window of an apartment in the housing project. What
Speaker 6: Fred's attorneys later found out and really stressed and trying
Speaker 6: to re engage with this case and prove that Fred
Speaker 6: didn't do it, was see that this witness was I
Speaker 6: think a teenager. He had pretty severe developmental, you know,
Speaker 6: cognitive issues, and that police furthermore told him and his
Speaker 6: family that if they testified against Fred, that they would
Speaker 6: be moved out of this project housing project which was
Speaker 6: mostly African American, into a housing project which was mostly white.
Speaker 6: And again this witness was white.
Speaker 5: Wow, so you talk about coercion or you know, And
Speaker 5: isn't that a crazy thing to Chris and Fred is
Speaker 5: that everyone, even the most casual TV watcher right who
Speaker 5: watched his crime shows, knows that you cannot bribe a witness.
Speaker 5: You go to prison for riving witness in America. Right,
Speaker 5: but the government is able to offer the best bribe
Speaker 5: that there is. I mean, in this case, it was
Speaker 5: a new home. Right, It's almost like a game show.
Speaker 5: Here's a new home. Just testify the way we want
Speaker 5: you to. Or they can threaten you. Or they can
Speaker 5: threaten you, and they do that very often, will take
Speaker 5: your kids away, will lock you up for some prior
Speaker 5: thing whatever. Or they can also agree to vacate charges
Speaker 5: or reduce charges that they have against you. So it's
Speaker 5: amazing that the weapons that they have in there are
Speaker 5: so it's really not a fair fight whatsoever. But what
Speaker 5: were you going to say? Fred?
Speaker 1: Also the witness that Chris was talking about, they happened
Speaker 1: to Ros and their projects. This witness I sort of
Speaker 1: I didn't know him personally, but we've seen each other
Speaker 1: from time to time in the projects, so he was
Speaker 1: familiar with my faith. That's another thing that was really
Speaker 1: that was really not really mentioned a little bit, but
Speaker 1: it wasn't really focused on. So when someone recognized your
Speaker 1: face and they see your your picture in the in
Speaker 1: the photo array, then they're not really picking out the perpetrated.
Speaker 1: They're picking out a familiar face. So just because he
Speaker 1: was familiar with by face. He sort of just placed
Speaker 1: me at the scene of crime based on the fact
Speaker 1: that he was familiar with my face, not because he
Speaker 1: saw me at the scene the crime.
Speaker 5: So we have a couple of factors here that are
Speaker 5: very common and wrong for convictions. We have police misconduct,
Speaker 5: we have wrong flight witness identification, two of those in fact,
Speaker 5: and then it gets worse. So you were were you
Speaker 5: at home when you were arrested? How did this all
Speaker 5: go down? And how long did you have to wait
Speaker 5: for trial? Who was your I assume you had a
Speaker 5: public defender. Can you fill in some of those blanks
Speaker 5: for us?
Speaker 1: Fred, Yes, I was at the foster home when I
Speaker 1: got it. I was actually when I went, I was
Speaker 1: on probation because I had some juvenile cases, so I
Speaker 1: had some issuons with the foster parent. I really didn't.
Speaker 1: And she claims I ran away, but I never really
Speaker 1: ran away. I just you know, vanished from time to
Speaker 1: time and came back. But anyway, I showed up on
Speaker 1: November fifteen through her house and I didn't know that,
Speaker 1: but she had previously reported me for running. So when
Speaker 1: I showed up on November fifteen, she informed me that
Speaker 1: I can stay that night, but at the same time,
Speaker 1: she didn't want me to do the next morning. I
Speaker 1: had to leave the next morning. So the next morning
Speaker 1: came and she told me I had to leave because
Speaker 1: she reported me running. She didn't want the police that
Speaker 1: are out, so I left, and I was on probation,
Speaker 1: so I went to the probation officer and sort of
Speaker 1: told her what was going on, and based on that,
Speaker 1: they sent me back to another facility that I was
Speaker 1: previously held at before, a juvenile facility, and I was
Speaker 1: there for a few for about a little over a
Speaker 1: couple of weeks, I believe, and to playing cozy touches.
Speaker 1: Came in one evening and they went up to the
Speaker 1: main desk to talk to the council of work there,
Speaker 1: and maybe about two minutes after that, they called my
Speaker 1: name and I went up to the desk and they
Speaker 1: asked me my name. I told my name is Frederick Clay.
Speaker 1: They told me they needed to speak with me, so
Speaker 1: they took me to like a little room off to
Speaker 1: the side, and in that room they informed me that
Speaker 1: David was arrested me for murder. So I really didn't
Speaker 1: know anything about the murder until it actually they came
Speaker 1: there and arrest me for it, and my attorney at
Speaker 1: the time when I went to trial was Thomas Saperro.
Speaker 1: So it's kind of crazy how I was somewhat informed
Speaker 1: about the murder.
Speaker 5: How long were you in jail awaiting trial, because I'm
Speaker 5: assuming that there was either new years two years waiting. Wow,
Speaker 5: So that whole thing about it in the constitution.
Speaker 1: Arrested November seventy nine and I didn't go to trial
Speaker 1: until nineteen eighty one.
Speaker 5: Right, that whole thing in the constitution about your right
Speaker 5: to a speedy trial, we really don't see that very
Speaker 5: often in this country. It's kind of weird. I don't
Speaker 5: know how that can be so routinely ignored or violated,
Speaker 5: but it is, and your case is sadly not atypical
Speaker 5: in that sense. So you're in jail for two years
Speaker 5: awaiting trial, and let's go to the trial, because it's
Speaker 5: always I think for our listeners and even for me
Speaker 5: an eye opener, to hear how these things go, especially
Speaker 5: in a case as serious as this one where you
Speaker 5: were facing life in prison. Tell us what you can
Speaker 5: remember about the trial? For instance, did you think if
Speaker 5: you can remember and again, you were in prison, for
Speaker 5: so long. I mean, it's actually crazy. You went to
Speaker 5: prison at sixteen, and you were in for thirty eight years,
Speaker 5: which means you were in prison for almost two and
Speaker 5: a half times as long as you had been alive, right,
Speaker 5: and your life experience as a sixteen year old, Let's
Speaker 5: face it, the first three or four years, we're not
Speaker 5: even really sentient beings. We're kind of just stumbling around,
Speaker 5: eating animal crackers or doing whatever we're doing right, and
Speaker 5: playing with toys and having I'm gonna read us a
Speaker 5: book and hug us or if we're lucky. So you know,
Speaker 5: for you, your life experience was so brief before you
Speaker 5: entered the system, and you had already been in and
Speaker 5: out of the system. So here you are at trial,
Speaker 5: and did you, if you can recall, did you feel
Speaker 5: like when the jury went out that you were going
Speaker 5: to be convicted or did you still have hope that
Speaker 5: you did justice would be done.
Speaker 1: Well, I wasn't really sure there was a fifty to
Speaker 1: fifty chance that I was going to get convicted. I thought,
Speaker 1: once I get understand and tell the truth and so
Speaker 1: sort of present my case and present the evidence that
Speaker 1: actually prove that I was innocent and have E present
Speaker 1: my olibi. I thought, I was I might have a
Speaker 1: chance of being found not guilty, so I was I
Speaker 1: was hoping that I was going to be found not guilty.
Speaker 1: But at the back of my mind, according to my attorneys,
Speaker 1: you know, there was a possible chance that I could
Speaker 1: get convicted. So I was positive, hopefully that I was
Speaker 1: going to get found not guilty. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: I was concerned that I will be found guilty. So
Speaker 1: I had a fifty to fifty chance.
Speaker 5: And just backtracking for a second, the witnesses against you,
Speaker 5: were they white or black?
Speaker 1: Well, a couple of them was black, I mean white,
Speaker 1: and one of them was black, But the one was
Speaker 1: black really didn't really really didn't really hurt me that much.
Speaker 1: But the two name was that, yes, they was white.
Speaker 5: And the reason I raised that question is because we
Speaker 5: know from decades of experience, research, studies, et cetera, that
Speaker 5: cross racial identifications are just notoriously unreliable, much more so
Speaker 5: than when people are, you know, trying to identify someone
Speaker 5: of their own race. I think there's a lot of
Speaker 5: reasons for that. We don't have to get into all
Speaker 5: of them, but it's worth knowing because everyone that's listening
Speaker 5: right now. As I always say on this, always a
Speaker 5: potential juror, and someday they may be faced with a
Speaker 5: situation like yours, where there will be I mean, there
Speaker 5: was no evidence against you, so it was only the
Speaker 5: witness's word. And if it is a cross racial identification,
Speaker 5: and it doesn't matter whether that's why white person testifying
Speaker 5: against a black person, a Hispanic person testifying against a
Speaker 5: white person, whatever it might be, it's just not reliable.
Speaker 5: And so your case is an important one to highlight
Speaker 5: that particular factor because again, the reason why I do
Speaker 5: this show, Fred is because I want to help to
Speaker 5: prevent these things from happening to other people in the future,
Speaker 5: as I'm sure you do.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if there was a well known fact
Speaker 1: back in nineteen eighty one the cross racial identification issue,
Speaker 1: but it's a well known fact now.
Speaker 5: Right, and I'm glad you brought that up. So the
Speaker 5: jury comes back and it had to be the worst
Speaker 5: feeling in the world, and you were sentenced to life
Speaker 5: in prison, which is again a bizarre.
Speaker 1: Yeah, a natural life, not just a life, a natural life.
Speaker 1: Life sort of means like a second degree life, but
Speaker 1: natural means a first to be life sentence with the
Speaker 1: chance of no parole, which means like a you got'spen
Speaker 1: investing in your life in prison, you go and die
Speaker 1: in prison.
Speaker 5: And Chris, let's talk about that. I mean, I mean,
Speaker 5: what kind of a system do we have where we
Speaker 5: can sent in someone who was really a child an
Speaker 5: adolescent when this happened, a young teenager to life in prison. Yeah,
Speaker 5: I mean it is.
Speaker 6: It's just shocking. And you know, thankfully there were later,
Speaker 6: much later, the Supreme Court decisions that tried to undo
Speaker 6: some of that. So it did at a very much
Speaker 6: later stage, did make Fred eligible for parole. But we're
Speaker 6: talking again, decades later that there was some understanding of
Speaker 6: just how wrong that is. That obviously, to charge someone
Speaker 6: at sixteen, put and put them to adult trial raises
Speaker 6: a lot of really serious quesnessions, but then to make
Speaker 6: that same person prone to being convicted and sentenced to
Speaker 6: life without any chance of parole is all the more shocking.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just think about it, judge telling you, a sixteen
Speaker 1: year old kid that you are incapable of changing, so
Speaker 1: therefore you need to spend the rest of your life
Speaker 1: in adults prison. You know, and often think about that
Speaker 1: and they took me out of a bad situation, and
Speaker 1: they put me in even a worse situation because a
Speaker 1: lot of people don't survive prison, and I was thinking
Speaker 1: about a lot of that stuff and how I was
Speaker 1: going to survive that, whether I was going to end
Speaker 1: up being murdered, raped, killed, whatever. So just to have
Speaker 1: someone tell you at the age of sixteen that we
Speaker 1: think that you are incapable of changing.
Speaker 5: And when you went to prison, this was you know,
Speaker 5: this was the reality, right, I mean, this was a
Speaker 5: very violent place and you were in amongst people who
Speaker 5: were much older than you, stronger, you know, and here
Speaker 5: you are, like thrust into this unimaginable nightmare. How did
Speaker 5: you manage to survive as a young not a particularly
Speaker 5: big tough guy, but you know, a young, skinny guy
Speaker 5: in that situation. How did you manage to survive?
Speaker 1: Well? Personally, I just paid attention to my surroundings. A
Speaker 1: lot of older gentleman that was doing natural life sentence
Speaker 1: sort of took a liking to me, and they just
Speaker 1: sort of just gave me, just told me the way
Speaker 1: of prison life. Mind your business. If you see something,
Speaker 1: keep it to yourself, don't talk to corrections officers, try
Speaker 1: to stay out of trouble, get into programs, try to
Speaker 1: use that time to benefit me as a person, to
Speaker 1: change things about myself that I did not like, to
Speaker 1: sort of use that time to work on me as
Speaker 1: a human being. And they also let me. They also
Speaker 1: told me I had to figure out how to do
Speaker 1: the time and not let the time do me. And
Speaker 1: it took me quite a while to understand that. So,
Speaker 1: like what you mean, due to time and not let
Speaker 1: the time do me. So basically what they was telling me,
Speaker 1: just what I was telling you, is just try to
Speaker 1: use this bad experience and focus on the things that
Speaker 1: I do do not like about myself and the things
Speaker 1: that I can change to make me feel good about
Speaker 1: myself and to make other people see me in a
Speaker 1: way that I want them to see me. So I
Speaker 1: it was a little bit of that, and it was
Speaker 1: just a little bit of me just figuring out who
Speaker 1: I can trust and who I can't trust, and also
Speaker 1: not to put myself in a certain position to have
Speaker 1: some of these bad things happened to me. Just you know,
Speaker 1: make sure that whoever I'm dealing with be upfront with
Speaker 1: them about my situation and just be aware of their motives, you.
Speaker 5: Know, and then there was a sort of a hero emerged,
Speaker 5: if you could call it that, from this situation. A
Speaker 5: guy named Roosevelt Pickett really helped to pull you out
Speaker 5: of this right and introduce you to a very unlikely
Speaker 5: character who became almost like, I don't use too strong
Speaker 5: of a word, but almost like your savior, right, And
Speaker 5: can you talk about that?
Speaker 1: Oh much?
Speaker 5: Yeah, that whole situation is so interesting to me, So
Speaker 5: can you talk about that a little bit?
Speaker 1: Well. Roosevelt Pickett was as an old gentleman, I think
Speaker 1: he was like in the sixties, and I knew him
Speaker 1: at that time. I knew of for about twelve years
Speaker 1: thirteen years, and he was also doing a life bit
Speaker 1: and he had he was he was walking on the
Speaker 1: king he had an accident. He used to do cariding
Speaker 1: works and stuff like that, so he fell off the
Speaker 1: roof and he used to walk around with a game. So. Uh. Anyway,
Speaker 1: I used to work and if I was in Bay
Speaker 1: State Prison at this time, and I was working downstairs
Speaker 1: on the first floor in the day room, and he
Speaker 1: lived on the first floor, and he was down there
Speaker 1: cooking in the dayroom one afternoon and I was I
Speaker 1: was down there doing my job and everything and he was.
Speaker 1: So we started talking about visits and stuff like that,
Speaker 1: and he asked me, did I have anybody that you know,
Speaker 1: family members and friends that visit me? And I told him, uh,
Speaker 1: not really. I had my great aunt. She visited me
Speaker 1: like every two years, three years a year, whenever she
Speaker 1: could find time to do it. So then he asked
Speaker 1: me if I was if I wanted somebody to visit me,
Speaker 1: like from a church and stuff like that, and I said, sure,
Speaker 1: why not. I grew up in the opportunity to meet
Speaker 1: somebody from church and just have a friend to come
Speaker 1: visit me. So he put me in touch with prison ministry.
Speaker 1: I think it's called Candlelight Ministries. And I had to
Speaker 1: fill out some forms and stuff like that, and I
Speaker 1: filled out the forms and he sent it in and
Speaker 1: I'm not quite sure how long after that then I
Speaker 1: met Reverend Fred Small. He came to visit me and
Speaker 1: I was back in I think that was like in
Speaker 1: ninety seven, nineteen ninety seven, ninety eight, and once he
Speaker 1: came to Bay State to visit me. So our friendship
Speaker 1: developed and got stronger and stronger, and the more he
Speaker 1: visited me, the more I started talking about my case
Speaker 1: and me as a person and things I like and dislike,
Speaker 1: and I just take this interest. And so he helped
Speaker 1: me somewhat get out of prison.
Speaker 5: And then he spoke to his parishioners and asked if
Speaker 5: anybody would like to get involved in this, you know,
Speaker 5: helping out I guess, you know, volunteering to make friends
Speaker 5: with someone on the inside. And it's interesting because people
Speaker 5: ask me that question a lot, and I'm always trying
Speaker 5: to connect people as best I can. And in fact,
Speaker 5: a software engineer named Doran Dibble, which is sort of
Speaker 5: an unusual name, right, it's sort of an interesting If
Speaker 5: I was writing a movie about your story, I would
Speaker 5: name the guy Doran Dibble. So Dorian Dibble shows up
Speaker 5: some sort of a sort of a very square looking
Speaker 5: white guy, right, sort that comes in out of nowhere.
Speaker 5: What was your reaction when you met this guy?
Speaker 1: Well, he was funny, he was very smart, he was kind,
Speaker 1: he was very kind, he was generous, he was sincere,
Speaker 1: he was empathetic, he told he told some jokes. I
Speaker 1: thought he was a very nice guy, and I thought,
Speaker 1: this is the kind of person that I need in
Speaker 1: my life to sort of help me, take me out
Speaker 1: of my comfort zone, so to speak, because I wasn't
Speaker 1: really that social with in prison, so he sort of
Speaker 1: sort of brought me out of my shell a little bit.
Speaker 1: So I thought he was a very nice person something
Speaker 1: that is, someone that I needed to have in my
Speaker 1: life to help me grow socially anyway, you know, in
Speaker 1: many other ways after that, to be exact.
Speaker 5: And how important was that relationship to you?
Speaker 1: It was very important. I mean, how many people do
Speaker 1: you know will bring their their young, small children in
Speaker 1: to see a person in prison that's non family. So
Speaker 1: he became uh, I know I used this phrase before.
Speaker 1: He was a stranger in the beginning, but he became
Speaker 1: family to me, and and he's still family right now.
Speaker 1: So his friendship and him being part of my life
Speaker 1: was very very important then and it's very important now.
Speaker 1: He's still in my life right now.
Speaker 5: And Chris, in the article that you wrote about the case,
Speaker 5: I was really moved by this quote from mister Dibble
Speaker 5: where he said, and I'm quoting, one of the amazing
Speaker 5: things for me is given his circumstances we're talking life
Speaker 5: without parole, his resilience, determination, and his decency through all
Speaker 5: that It's a model to me. He didn't hate the establishment.
Speaker 5: We're white, he didn't care. I'm getting the chills just
Speaker 5: reading that. And you actually did the interview with him.
Speaker 5: I mean, can you share some insight into this guy,
Speaker 5: because he really does emerge as a hero in this story.
Speaker 6: Yeah, no, it is and was an incredible part of
Speaker 6: the whole story. And just sitting here honestly listening to
Speaker 6: Fred again, I really enjoyed every minute hanging out with
Speaker 6: Fred over the course of the last year. And I'm
Speaker 6: guessing that listeners can kind of get a feel as
Speaker 6: to how Fred talks and that people are kind of
Speaker 6: drawn to the way he talks and understands things about
Speaker 6: this really awful experience he had he had to go through.
Speaker 6: And so Dorian Dibble and his wife Jackie, and his
Speaker 6: two kids. I met one of his kids who's now,
Speaker 6: you know, in his twenties, and I hung out with
Speaker 6: them over dinner that they invited Fred over, and I
Speaker 6: asked to come along back in July. And yeah, Dorian
Speaker 6: and his wife Jackie just are really big hearted people
Speaker 6: and just showed up there in prison, you know, frequently
Speaker 6: during the year, like every few months, they would drive
Speaker 6: down and and go. It's not easy to get into
Speaker 6: a prison. You gotta sit there and wait and get
Speaker 6: frisked down and go through metal detectors and wear exactly
Speaker 6: the right clothing or they turn you away. And you
Speaker 6: know they again they brought their little kids in to
Speaker 6: kind of hang out. Friends sit there and play cards,
Speaker 6: and just the whole dynamic and relationship that was related
Speaker 6: to me really kind of me away.
Speaker 5: It's almost like the family that Fred couldn't have, and
Speaker 5: now all of a sudden he has sort of an
Speaker 5: adoptive family inside. And you know, it was a long
Speaker 5: drive and they would come every couple of months. And
Speaker 5: there's one more quote, and I want to get back
Speaker 5: to the story because again this really touched me and
Speaker 5: I got the chills reading the last one. I'm going
Speaker 5: to get him again because mister Dibble said, quote, we'd
Speaker 5: all pile back in the car when our visit was
Speaker 5: over and it was just dead silence in the car.
Speaker 5: Because that's where it really hit everybody. Oh this is
Speaker 5: from Jackie Dibble. Say we start again, and missus Dibble,
Speaker 5: Jackie Dibble said, quote, we'd all pile back in the
Speaker 5: car when our visit was over, and it was just
Speaker 5: dead silence in the car because that's where it really
Speaker 5: hit everybody. We'd walk out of there under the barbed wire.
Speaker 5: We get to go home and he doesn't, and it
Speaker 5: was just nobody would say anything on the way home
Speaker 5: and end quote. And I've had that feeling so many
Speaker 5: times now visiting people in Priton and who I know
Speaker 5: are innocent, and then when I leave and that door
Speaker 5: slams behind and you can't take them with you. It's
Speaker 5: a horrible feelings. It's a sick feeling actually, And Chris
Speaker 5: is nodding his head because he knows, and you know,
Speaker 5: it does drive me and I think all of us
Speaker 5: every day to try to do more to help people
Speaker 5: like yourself, Fred, because it's if you've once you've experienced that.
Speaker 5: And I brought four people with me up to Sing
Speaker 5: Sing this weekend where we met many of the men
Speaker 5: who are stuck there, some of whom are innocent, some
Speaker 5: are not. But you know, I would say that ninety
Speaker 5: percent of the people that we met there don't belong there.
Speaker 5: You know, they've served their time, they have made a mistake.
Speaker 5: I'm of the Brian Stevenson school. He's one of my
Speaker 5: heroes and you know, he said, I believe everyone is
Speaker 5: better than the worst thing they've ever done. You know,
Speaker 5: I think in our system we overincarcerate to such an
Speaker 5: extreme degree, we over punish. The institutions that we have
Speaker 5: that are called correctional institutions are not by and large,
Speaker 5: and all of it needs to change. And that's why
Speaker 5: it's so important that you're here, Fred to tell your story.
Speaker 5: So I really appreciate that, and you too, Chris. So
Speaker 5: Fred tell us how this situation changed. Because you were
Speaker 5: sentenced to life in prison, you had no hope to
Speaker 5: get out. You found this inner strength, this grace, this
Speaker 5: courage that always mystifies me and amazes me and makes me,
Speaker 5: you know, draws me two people like yourself because I
Speaker 5: get so much out of just talking to you and
Speaker 5: spending time. And so how did you ultimately? I mean,
Speaker 5: we know how you survive because you explain that, But
Speaker 5: how did you get out? Because you're here now and
Speaker 5: that's a fantastic thing, and I know, and I want
Speaker 5: to talk about the struggle of being out as well.
Speaker 5: Becau's what I call the second punishment. But how did that?
Speaker 5: Let's get to the happy stuff. How'd you get out?
Speaker 1: Well, I got out on a new trial motion. Lisa
Speaker 1: Kavanaugh from the CPCs Innocent Program, she's my attorney. She
Speaker 1: was my attorney on our pill We drafted and critique
Speaker 1: and finally finalized a new trial motion, and we followed that.
Speaker 1: I think when I was in Concuent Farm, probably late
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. I believe it took a while, but between
Speaker 1: by witness identification, the hypnosis, cross racial identification, somewhat mug
Speaker 1: shot exposure, some police reports that the detectives somewhat I
Speaker 1: mean obviously overlooked. It was a combination of all that
Speaker 1: stuff together that helped me get out of prison. Also
Speaker 1: in twenty thirteen, I would say late December twenty thirteen,
Speaker 1: the Juveeile Life of law change which gave juveniles and
Speaker 1: opportunities juveniles under the age of eighteen an opportunity to
Speaker 1: see the parole board. So once that law changed, that
Speaker 1: law allowed me to see the parole board. So at
Speaker 1: that particular time, I was not I was still thinking
Speaker 1: about and preparing for my Route thirty emotion, but I
Speaker 1: was also preparing for my parole hearing. So I ended
Speaker 1: up going to parole May twenty first, twenty fifteen, I
Speaker 1: should say, and the results of that, I ended up
Speaker 1: getting presented my case a parole board, stating that I
Speaker 1: was innocent, but at the same time taking responsibility for
Speaker 1: the crimes that I did do. For the juvenile issue,
Speaker 1: the cases that I had previous of me getting arrested
Speaker 1: for this murder case, I took responsibility for all that stuff,
Speaker 1: but I did not take responsibility for the current case
Speaker 1: that I was doing time for with much the murder.
Speaker 1: And I let them know that if I did do it,
Speaker 1: I would have no problem taking responsibility to meet and guilt.
Speaker 1: But that's not the case. So I did not admit
Speaker 1: to something I did not do. But at the same
Speaker 1: time I was letting them know that prison so you
Speaker 1: I mean by be being in prison, I was not
Speaker 1: the same person I was when I first went to president.
Speaker 1: I was a different person sitting in front of them.
Speaker 1: So I just explained to them how different I was
Speaker 1: through programs and education and stuff like that. So basically
Speaker 1: I got up I was going I was set to
Speaker 1: get out on parole anyway. I was scheduled to get
Speaker 1: out on parole August twelve, but August twelfth was on
Speaker 1: a Saturday, so they pushed it to August fourteenth, was
Speaker 1: on Monday. And tell you the truth, I'm not quite
Speaker 1: sure how this happened, but I ended up getting is
Speaker 1: generated a week before I was scheduled to get released
Speaker 1: our parole.
Speaker 5: That is very unusual, and there's so many unusual things
Speaker 5: about your case. I mean, let's go back to the
Speaker 5: hypnosis thing, because even even though back then we you know,
Speaker 5: we didn't, we didn't know a lot of the things
Speaker 5: that we know now. But even back then, Walter Cronkite
Speaker 5: was on TV talking about how this hypnosis thing was
Speaker 5: a disaster and it didn't make any sense. Walter Cronkite
Speaker 5: were the most respected people in America at that time,
Speaker 5: one of the most respected journalists of all time. So
Speaker 5: what was it like, Fred walking out into the fresh
Speaker 5: air after spending a longer time than most of the
Speaker 5: people that are listening to the show have even been alive, right,
Speaker 5: I mean, we have two people in the studio here
Speaker 5: who haven't been alive that long, thirty eight years.
Speaker 1: Well, the first thing I did was hug my attorneys,
Speaker 1: thanked them very much, hugged Shacking and Dorn Dibbles and
Speaker 1: their family, and Victor Vizario, he was there. I hugged him,
Speaker 1: and once I did that, I started talking to the media.
Speaker 1: I see. That was the first thing I did start
Speaker 1: talking to the media after I hugged my friends and stuff.
Speaker 1: But to answer your question of what it was like,
Speaker 1: it was felt very strange to be walking without outside
Speaker 1: of prison, without no shackles on my feet. That felt
Speaker 1: very strange. Every time I left prison, no matter to
Speaker 1: go to the hospital or whatever, to the court, whatever,
Speaker 1: they always had shackles on your feet. And once they
Speaker 1: actually said that you're free to go, and they put
Speaker 1: me in the in the in the like the whole
Speaker 1: itself for a little while, for like an hour to
Speaker 1: finalize everything. So once everything was finalized and they opened it,
Speaker 1: uh the cell door, and I walked downstairs, and I
Speaker 1: actually walked downstairs to be outside, it felt very strange
Speaker 1: to be, like I said, to be walking without thrown
Speaker 1: shackles on my feet. I thought it was a dream.
Speaker 1: But then again it wasn't a dream, but it was
Speaker 1: kind of overwhelming. It was I was happy, I was
Speaker 1: somewhat cautious, and I was like in shocked to some degree.
Speaker 1: So it was it was a combination of all those things.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean it's a it's a joyous uh, you know,
Speaker 5: just thinking about it and envisioning it is such a
Speaker 5: joyous thing. But I think that people get the idea
Speaker 5: that you know, everyone sees on the news the photographs
Speaker 5: or the video of someone like yourself coming out and
Speaker 5: there's all this joy and you have if you're fortunate
Speaker 5: enough like you were, to have some friends and family
Speaker 5: around and there's news media and there's cameras and maybe
Speaker 5: the sun is shining. But there's another side to that too, right,
Speaker 5: I mean, you come out and you get nothing like
Speaker 5: most of the people. And this is crazy because for
Speaker 5: twenty five years I've been doing this work and anyone
Speaker 5: I talk to that's not aware. You know, when I
Speaker 5: meet somebody new and I'm talking about decision because I
Speaker 5: talk about it everywhere, the first thing they want to
Speaker 5: know is does the exonery you get paid? Like, just
Speaker 5: tell me they get money? And I have to tell
Speaker 5: them that in most cases know and even in the
Speaker 5: cases when they do, it takes an unconscionably long time,
Speaker 5: years and years. This is something that the Interests Project
Speaker 5: has been deeply involved with. Recently, we just passed the
Speaker 5: compensation statute in Kansas. So it's a thirty first state
Speaker 5: to actually have compensation statues. There's still nineteen states that
Speaker 5: have none, no compensation statues. And for you, Fred, coming
Speaker 5: out of prison after thirty eight years, having gone in
Speaker 5: as a sixteen year old kid, you know, trying to
Speaker 5: rebuild your life. I want to focus for a minute
Speaker 5: on those challenges, which I don't think get the type
Speaker 5: of attention that they deserve. And I think we as
Speaker 5: a society owe you and every man and woman that
Speaker 5: has been through this type of ordeal, we owe you
Speaker 5: more than a fresh start. I mean, we owe you
Speaker 5: a debt, and I think that as soon as you
Speaker 5: get out that should start to be getting repaid. But
Speaker 5: that's not the way it works, and your case is
Speaker 5: a very strong example of that. So can you talk
Speaker 5: about the challenges? I mean, you haven't gotten any money
Speaker 5: yet right, Well.
Speaker 1: My working on that right now, so it's still to
Speaker 1: be remained to be still being rocked on.
Speaker 5: And how how long have you been out?
Speaker 1: Not over year now, so it's been August eighth, so
Speaker 1: it's been.
Speaker 6: Not over year, fifteen to sixteen months?
Speaker 1: Fifteen months? Much like that?
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, I can jump in here a little bit.
Speaker 6: I mean, this was this was this was the focus
Speaker 6: of my reporting for the last year, was to kind
Speaker 6: of answer that question, what's life like when you get
Speaker 6: out of prison? His his Fred's murder conviction was vacated,
Speaker 6: and you know, my editors suggested, why do we see
Speaker 6: what life's like in the first thirty days? And that
Speaker 6: turned into what are we? Uh, why don't I check
Speaker 6: in with Fred from time to time over the course
Speaker 6: of a year, and and Fred can kind of fill
Speaker 6: in a lot of this stuff, but a lot of
Speaker 6: it was, you know, what what do you do to survive?
Speaker 6: You need you need housing, you need shelter, and you
Speaker 6: need some income to provide that shelter and food. Just
Speaker 6: the base bear basics of survival. And that was what
Speaker 6: you know, Fred and I would kind of meet up
Speaker 6: and he would very graciously let me tag along with
Speaker 6: him as he talked to people about filling out job
Speaker 6: applications and trying to work on a resume, and watched
Speaker 6: him move from one apartment to another apartment, and I think,
Speaker 6: you know, maybe Fred, you talk a little bit about
Speaker 6: what those experiences.
Speaker 1: Not really apartment, it's a room, but yeah, it's been
Speaker 1: kind of challenging when you've been in prison. What I
Speaker 1: long Obviously, technology has changed, and technology definitely has changed
Speaker 1: to the point where it's all new to me. I
Speaker 1: often make this phrase, It's like I've been reborn again
Speaker 1: and I have to learn everything all over again, including technology. So,
Speaker 1: and even how do you fill out job applications now?
Speaker 1: It's different compared to when I was back in the
Speaker 1: seventies and stuff. A lot of stuff you got to
Speaker 1: fill out online now, as far as pretty much everything,
Speaker 1: housing application, job applications, everything. So the challenge of learning
Speaker 1: the technology is still the challenge. I'm still I know
Speaker 1: a little bit, but there's a whole lot more that
Speaker 1: I need to learn. And that's been kind of frustrating
Speaker 1: and exciting at the same time and aggravating. But at
Speaker 1: the same time, I've been reminding myself that hopefully, eventually
Speaker 1: I get there. I just need to be patient with myself.
Speaker 1: But trying to survive out here when you've been in prison,
Speaker 1: that law, it's kind of difficult. Even maintaining a job.
Speaker 1: It's been kind of challenging. I'm still dealing with that.
Speaker 5: Oh, what what part of Massachusetts are you living in now? Fred?
Speaker 1: I'm living in Lowell, Massachusetts.
Speaker 5: So that's right by Boston, right.
Speaker 1: It's not it's it's it's by Boston, but I wouldn't
Speaker 1: call it right by. It's some distance, yes, but it
Speaker 1: is by.
Speaker 6: Boston, about an hour north of Boston.
Speaker 5: Okay. Well wow.
Speaker 1: And when you don't drive, that's another thing. I really
Speaker 1: I haven't really started driving yet. And when you when
Speaker 1: you don't know how to drive, you're very limited. So
Speaker 1: I'm sort of restricted to a certain area and low
Speaker 1: and that's been kind of challenging. The puppet transportation here
Speaker 1: is not that great. It shuts down at seven o'clock
Speaker 1: in the evening, and that's been an issue that I
Speaker 1: still struggle with today. So I need to learn how
Speaker 1: to drive in order to get more access to resources, jobs, housing,
Speaker 1: just to get around, I need to learn how to drive.
Speaker 1: And people been offering their help, and I've even been
Speaker 1: thinking about going through driving school. But it's just the
Speaker 1: thought of it is fine. It's just putting an action is,
Speaker 1: you know, trying to figure out when the right time is.
Speaker 1: Maybe there is no right time. I just need to
Speaker 1: just jump into it and do it. But all that's
Speaker 1: been kind of challenging to me. To figure out what's important,
Speaker 1: what's not important, trying to prioritize things. That's been a
Speaker 1: big issue.
Speaker 5: And I can tell just from the way you know
Speaker 5: you are and the way that you've dealt with this
Speaker 5: situation that I think anybody I know accept the exounre
Speaker 5: reason that I know actually would have crumbled under the
Speaker 5: weight of this unreal ordeal. So I know you're going
Speaker 5: to be successful, but I think all of us just
Speaker 5: need a little boost every once in a while. So
Speaker 5: I'm happy to say that that's something I'm going to
Speaker 5: be able to to provide. So I do want to
Speaker 5: I want to ask you also, what if you can
Speaker 5: think of it, what its been your happiest moment since
Speaker 5: you got out. It's interesting I'm seeing I'm looking at
Speaker 5: a picture right now of you with the with the dibbles,
Speaker 5: with Dorin and Jackie. It's really sort of a funny picture.
Speaker 5: I mean, you have this giant smile on your face
Speaker 5: and the glasses on and they, you know, they're obviously
Speaker 5: smiling too, but I mean they're really white, these people are.
Speaker 5: You know, It's really just an interesting, you know, photograph
Speaker 5: because it's just such an unusual, uh you know, combination
Speaker 5: of different backgrounds. But there's a lot of humanity in that, right,
Speaker 5: and there's a lot of beauty it. There's a lot
Speaker 5: of beauty in it. So, I mean, aside from the
Speaker 5: moment when you first stepped out, which must have been
Speaker 5: as much of a shock as anything else, what's been
Speaker 5: your happiest memory since in the fifteen sixteen months since
Speaker 5: you got out.
Speaker 1: Well, I had a few vision my mother's grave that
Speaker 1: was very happy. But I would say right now, the skydiving.
Speaker 5: Who you went skydiving?
Speaker 1: I went skydiving twice?
Speaker 5: Wow?
Speaker 1: And I would say that. I said that because some
Speaker 1: guys that I was in prison with that end up
Speaker 1: passing away. In prison often, you know, we often talked
Speaker 1: about skydiving, and we watched some programs on Double GBH
Speaker 1: about skydiving and stuff like that, and we said to
Speaker 1: ourselves that they looked a lot of fun, you know,
Speaker 1: looked like fun, and I looked like the people was
Speaker 1: enjoying themselves. So when I went skydiving, I was sort
Speaker 1: of like dedicating that moment to them because they sort
Speaker 1: of helped me change who I was as a person.
Speaker 1: They sort of helped me get back into my case
Speaker 1: and make me stay focused on that. So when I
Speaker 1: skydived the first time, it was just to honor them
Speaker 1: and for me to thank them and to show respect
Speaker 1: for them for what they did for me, because I
Speaker 1: at that time and I still do now, I consider
Speaker 1: myself very lucky. So that was a very special moment
Speaker 1: the first time and the second time too because the
Speaker 1: second time when I went skydiving, I went with a
Speaker 1: lot of its honorary people, people that was in my
Speaker 1: somewhat in my situation. We all had our individual cases
Speaker 1: that end up that we end up in prison for,
Speaker 1: but we all was innocent, and so it was kind
Speaker 1: of special to be with them that way. I felt,
Speaker 1: you know, that I was surrounded by people who actually
Speaker 1: knew what I was going through, and they didn't have
Speaker 1: no problem sharing what they was going through, what they
Speaker 1: went through in prison, and what they're dealing with now
Speaker 1: out here that you be shortage to share our experience
Speaker 1: and share their knowledge and help you each other. So
Speaker 1: that was kind of special. And also when I jump
Speaker 1: out the plane the second time, it's sort of reminded
Speaker 1: me of life, like when you jump out the plane,
Speaker 1: there is no turning back. You came to say, well,
Speaker 1: I changed my mind. I want to go back. Once
Speaker 1: you jump out the plane, you and the elements, and
Speaker 1: so you got to face whatever there whatever fear you have,
Speaker 1: whatever there is, you got to face that. And it
Speaker 1: sort of reminds me about my life right now. Whatever
Speaker 1: it is in life that I'm uncomfortable with, I have
Speaker 1: fear about, I have to try to face it and
Speaker 1: try to do the best I can. So to answer
Speaker 1: your question, the skydiving was the most important thing to me.
Speaker 5: Well, that's an incredible story and very moving and very
Speaker 5: just amazing to think about. But I will say this,
Speaker 5: if you can jump out of a plane, you can
Speaker 5: definitely drive a car. And I'm gonna make you a
Speaker 5: deal right here in front of however many one hundred
Speaker 5: thousand people listening to this show. If you'll take your
Speaker 5: driver's course, wrongful conviction will get you a car. So
Speaker 5: that'll be our deal. You got to go make sure
Speaker 5: you can drive it. But if you can do it,
Speaker 5: we'll get you a car, all right. And then then
Speaker 5: then me and Chris are coming and we're going to
Speaker 5: take a ride with you. So because we're you jump
Speaker 5: out of a plan, I'll get on the car with you.
Speaker 5: Behind a wheel, no problem.
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, okay.
Speaker 5: All right, we got a deal. We got a deal.
Speaker 5: We have one hundred thousand witnesses, so there you go.
Speaker 5: Well you know it's it's it's amazing, Fred, you know that.
Speaker 5: And I am going to put you.
Speaker 1: To say something. It only take one witnesses to get
Speaker 1: someone convicted, never mind one hundred thousand.
Speaker 5: Right, Well, there you go. So we have a tradition
Speaker 5: here on wrongful conviction, which is my favorite part of
Speaker 5: the show. I think it's everybody's favorite part of the show,
Speaker 5: which is that at the end of the show, which
Speaker 5: is now, I always, of course thank both of you,
Speaker 5: Chris and Fred for being here and sharing your your
Speaker 5: story and your wisdom Chris and experience. So I'm thanking
Speaker 5: you now. And then also at the end of the show,
Speaker 5: the featured part is where I get to stop talking
Speaker 5: and do all the listening. And how this works is
Speaker 5: I just turned the microphone over to you for any
Speaker 5: closing thoughts that you have, if you have any, no pressure,
Speaker 5: but the microphone is yours, so let's start with you. Chris,
Speaker 5: anything any last words.
Speaker 6: Well as always, like it's really fascinating for me to
Speaker 6: listen to Fred and was a real privilege as a
Speaker 6: reporter to get to, you know, spend time with him,
Speaker 6: have work in a place, and have editors that saw
Speaker 6: how important that was to do it. And it's again,
Speaker 6: I think Fred just went through something really awful and
Speaker 6: has these amazing insights about what his experience was. And
Speaker 6: it's not surprising that he drew the kind of support
Speaker 6: to him that he did because again he's able to
Speaker 6: kind of reflect and share. He has a great sense
Speaker 6: of humor, and it's it's kind of brings me back
Speaker 6: to what it was like talking with him over these
Speaker 6: last many months. So happy to be here again.
Speaker 5: Chris Barrell, thank you again for being here on Wrongful Conviction.
Speaker 5: And now over to you Fred for your last words
Speaker 5: and thoughts.
Speaker 1: I want to thank you for the opportunity to speak
Speaker 1: on the podcast, and I want to thank Chris Barell
Speaker 1: for bugging me to do this. I'm just choking, but
Speaker 1: who come to me in the beginning when I first
Speaker 1: got out and presented the opportunity for him to follow
Speaker 1: me and talk about the person's life after the cameras
Speaker 1: go away. I'm sort of glad that he did that
Speaker 1: because it made me stay true to who I was,
Speaker 1: and it made me more focused about my situation and
Speaker 1: at the same time, it brought me out of my shell,
Speaker 1: so to speak, too. And I want to say that
Speaker 1: people sometimes ask me about why am I not bitter
Speaker 1: about my situation. Don't get me wrong, I'm definitely upset
Speaker 1: about what happened to me. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: it's sort of made me aware of who I was
Speaker 1: at that time as a person, and it made me
Speaker 1: change who I was to who I am in right
Speaker 1: now today. And I must say I liked the person
Speaker 1: I become today. I didn't like myself back then, and
Speaker 1: it made me think about those things. So in the
Speaker 1: process of sharing my story with Chris, it sort of
Speaker 1: made me realize that too. So I thank him for
Speaker 1: the opportunity to make me aware of that. And I
Speaker 1: won't thank my attorneys Lisa Kavanaugh and Jeffrey Harris, and
Speaker 1: my attorney who passed away, Emanuel Howard. I want to
Speaker 1: thank all three them for helping me get to where
Speaker 1: I'm at today, and my supporters too, the Debbil's Fred Smiles.
Speaker 1: So many people, so many people help me. I won't
Speaker 1: thank everybody for that.
Speaker 5: Wow. Yeah, it just took me a minute to collect myself,
Speaker 5: but well, once again you've been listening to Wrongful Conviction
Speaker 5: today's episode featuring investigative journalist Chris Barrell and Fred Play,
Speaker 5: exonerated after thirty eight years in prison for a murder
Speaker 5: he didn't commit. Gentlemen, thank you again for being on
Speaker 5: the show. And I look forward to to taking a
Speaker 5: ride through Lowell with the with the music blast and loud,
Speaker 5: I hope with you two guys, and maybe we'll go
Speaker 5: and pick up the dibbles along the way. So and
Speaker 5: that's a and that's a that's a bet. So thanks
Speaker 5: again and we'll keep the conversation moving.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Okay, I appreciate it very much.
Speaker 5: Thanks Fred, don't forget to give us a fantastic review.
Speaker 5: Wherever you get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm
Speaker 5: a proud donor to the NSIS project, and I really
Speaker 5: hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause
Speaker 5: and helping to prevent future wrongful convey Go to andisonsproject
Speaker 5: dot org to learn how to donate and get involved.
Speaker 5: I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and
Speaker 5: Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is by three
Speaker 5: Time Oscar nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow
Speaker 5: us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at
Speaker 5: brown Ful Conviction podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is
Speaker 5: a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with
Speaker 5: Signal Company Number one