Speaker 1: This call is from a correction facility, and it's subject
Speaker 1: to monitoring and recording exactly a hundred years. That's manly.
Speaker 1: I'm a kid. I didn't do anything, you know, and uh,
Speaker 1: you know that was that was real payingful man, No,
Speaker 1: because my life was discarded as if you know, like
Speaker 1: I was a piece of trash or something, you know,
Speaker 1: a hundred years. I had dreams and I wanted to
Speaker 1: do things I wouldn't committing crimes. You know, that was
Speaker 1: a very good young man. That is what happened in
Speaker 1: so many cases. The cops have a hunch because they're
Speaker 1: so smart at the scene, they have a hunch, and
Speaker 1: once they act on that hunch, they sort of developed
Speaker 1: tunnel vision and they take off marching in the wrong direction.
Speaker 1: And that happens in so many of these wrongful convictions.
Speaker 1: The opening, uh to sell door and I'll locked downstairs,
Speaker 1: And I actually walked downstairs to be outside. It felt
Speaker 1: very strange, um to be, like I said, to be
Speaker 1: walking without no shackles on my feet. I thought it
Speaker 1: was a dream, But then again it wasn't a dream.
Speaker 1: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. This
Speaker 1: is Jason flam. I'm your host, and today we have
Speaker 1: an extraordinary episode. I mean, I am, I don't even
Speaker 1: I'm at a loss for words, but I'm going to
Speaker 1: introduce our guests right now. Fred Clay was wrongfully imprisoned
Speaker 1: at the age of sixteen and served thirty eight years
Speaker 1: for a murder he didn't commit. Fred welcome to the show.
Speaker 1: Thank you very much and very on it. Appreciate it
Speaker 1: very much. I always say I'm I'm glad, I'm sorry
Speaker 1: you're here, but I'm glad you're here. And uh, I
Speaker 1: want to start off by apologizing to you on behalf
Speaker 1: of the human race and America and people and just
Speaker 1: there's nothing that can be said, but UM, let me
Speaker 1: just put that out there for starters and and with
Speaker 1: us today is Chris Burrell. Chris Burrell is an investigative
Speaker 1: reporter with the nonprofit New England Center for Investigative Reporting,
Speaker 1: a w g b H News partner. UM who does
Speaker 1: work on well, he's worked on your case. You're telling
Speaker 1: your story and as many other as well as many others.
Speaker 1: So Chris, welcome, I'm glad you're here. Thanks very much.
Speaker 1: Glad to be here. Chris, how did you first come
Speaker 1: across this story and why did it impact you so
Speaker 1: much that you wanted to do an article about it. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: I work for the New England Center for Investigative Reporting.
Speaker 1: We've done several stories on wrongful conviction cases, UM and
Speaker 1: and specifically this issue of you know, what happens afterwards,
Speaker 1: because we do know there's a fair amount of media
Speaker 1: attention when this and somebody's sort of a long amount
Speaker 1: time for a crime that they that they didn't do
Speaker 1: and they're released and it's you know, a lot of
Speaker 1: applause and a lot of TV cameras. So I was
Speaker 1: there the day got out, as was a lot of
Speaker 1: other media. Um. But the question came up, well, what
Speaker 1: is what is life really like? You know, once this
Speaker 1: kind of once the applause fades, what is what is
Speaker 1: what is a person's life really like? So initially, um,
Speaker 1: Fred was not that keen on me proffering this idea
Speaker 1: of following him around at different points over the course
Speaker 1: of about a year. UM, but I met with him
Speaker 1: on a couple occasions and he seemed open to it,
Speaker 1: and so we just struck up this this intervals of
Speaker 1: trying to meet up and I wanted to see him
Speaker 1: in different situations, trying to navigate again the basic survival, UM,
Speaker 1: the blocks, the basic blocks of survival. How do you
Speaker 1: how do you find shelter, how do you how do
Speaker 1: you feed yourself? And so for the first few months
Speaker 1: he didn't he didn't have a job. He had a
Speaker 1: little bit of money from UH, from a go fund
Speaker 1: me site, UM, and he had food stamps. UM. And
Speaker 1: his first job was working for UPS, which was very
Speaker 1: uneven work. He'd show up for a shift and they'd
Speaker 1: tell him, well, we've only got a couple of hours
Speaker 1: work instead of a full shift, and he'd walk home
Speaker 1: through the snow in the street because people didn't shove
Speaker 1: their sidewalks and we got a lot of snow up
Speaker 1: in northern Massachusetts. And UM, it wasn't until um, sometime
Speaker 1: late winter, early spring that he got this job precision
Speaker 1: grinding aviation parts, grinding metal, and UM. He seemed really
Speaker 1: grateful to have that work. But as everybody knows, rent
Speaker 1: in most cities in America is really high, and the
Speaker 1: most he could afford UM was basically a room in
Speaker 1: a basement. And he, you know, said at least once
Speaker 1: that that room kind of reminded me reminded him of prison.
Speaker 1: All it had was a tiny window, uh, with not
Speaker 1: a whole lot of light coming into it. Um, and
Speaker 1: that was the best that his circumstance this gonna allow.
Speaker 1: So Frederick, UM, this is such an insane story because
Speaker 1: even though we're in our eighth season of Wrongful Conviction, Um,
Speaker 1: we've told over seventies stories already. Uh. And just and
Speaker 1: I've been working for twenty five years in this struggle.
Speaker 1: I'm the founding board member of the Innocence Project. I
Speaker 1: thought I had heard everything until I heard your story.
Speaker 1: And you know, seeing the pictures of you as a
Speaker 1: sixteen year old a child really just scared out of
Speaker 1: your mind. Um, faced with this nightmare situation, it almost
Speaker 1: it almost reminded me of Emmett Till or something, and
Speaker 1: it was just so it just hurts my heart. Um.
Speaker 1: But let's go back to that time. You were living
Speaker 1: in a foster home at that time, right, Yes, I
Speaker 1: was living a foster home. I was spaced in it
Speaker 1: by d y S. I had some juvenile cases and
Speaker 1: I got convicted or too. I got sent this to
Speaker 1: like to d y S and he sent me to
Speaker 1: boys it to into center and a state if a
Speaker 1: little while, like month from there to program State A
Speaker 1: football six months, I believe, and they decided that I
Speaker 1: need to be in a fossil home. So I was
Speaker 1: in a fossil home at that time. And you were
Speaker 1: not a big guy either. You were like I mean,
Speaker 1: I remember reading that when this happened, you were like
Speaker 1: five four about a hundred pounds. Um. You were obviously
Speaker 1: ill prepared for any type of scenario, like there's no
Speaker 1: one's prepared for it. But let's go back to it
Speaker 1: and Chris jump in any time. I mean, how did
Speaker 1: this happen? Why was why was Fred targeted for? This
Speaker 1: was the murder of a taxi driver in Massachusetts? Right,
Speaker 1: And can you give us a little background on that? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean the way I understand it is Fred was
Speaker 1: arrested just a few weeks after turning sixteen and charged
Speaker 1: with the murder of a cab driver. The really crazy
Speaker 1: part of the story was that one of the another
Speaker 1: cab driver who saw three um young uh Africa American
Speaker 1: men get into a cab was said he was able
Speaker 1: to I D one of them, another the second person
Speaker 1: he couldn't I D. And the police use the practice
Speaker 1: they used back then of hypnotizing a witness in a case,
Speaker 1: believing that the brain functioned a lot like a videotape,
Speaker 1: and that you could put a witness under hypnosis and
Speaker 1: asked them to rewind to a certain date and time,
Speaker 1: and suddenly your brain would see things that hadn't recalled before.
Speaker 1: And that was one of the pieces um that that
Speaker 1: led police to arrest and charge Fred and and ultimately
Speaker 1: for prosecutors to convict him. But this Fred, this witness,
Speaker 1: how did he come to identify you? Were you anywhere
Speaker 1: near the scene at the time? Did you know these times?
Speaker 1: I was not in a scene. I was in the
Speaker 1: fossil home. I was thinking in the bed. I really
Speaker 1: don't know how he became to identify me. I really
Speaker 1: can't ask that question. He claims he saw, uh the
Speaker 1: picture of the cab, job of the cab in the
Speaker 1: front page of the Boston Globe, and he recognized the
Speaker 1: cab number. I guess one of his friends used to
Speaker 1: brought that cab and he thought, he's all the perpetrators
Speaker 1: get into the cab the previous night, and I guess
Speaker 1: he just went to the police station and try to
Speaker 1: cooperate with the police. There was hypnosis involved. Um, I
Speaker 1: think he was showing my picture a few times, like
Speaker 1: four or five, six times, and when they hypnotized him,
Speaker 1: instead of him actually placing, you know, actually viewing the people,
Speaker 1: the perpetrator at the scene the crime, he sort of
Speaker 1: like mug shot sort of my my faith from the
Speaker 1: mug shot was in his mind. Right, So yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean what we know that hypnosis Going back to what
Speaker 1: Chris was saying, hypnosis will make you see things you
Speaker 1: haven't seen before, but they will may not have any
Speaker 1: collection to reality. Right, That's the problemt I don't think.
Speaker 1: I don't think they hypnosi had anything to do with
Speaker 1: when someone shows you a photograph five or six times
Speaker 1: that faces somewhat imprinted in your mind. Of course. I
Speaker 1: mean that's one thing we do know about the mind
Speaker 1: is if you keep getting repeated u image, the same
Speaker 1: image repeated over and over again, it's going to play
Speaker 1: tricks on your mind, and your mind will start to
Speaker 1: go to that place. And was this That's why I
Speaker 1: think what happened He just stude your mind played his
Speaker 1: mind played tricks on something. I realicate, I redicate answer
Speaker 1: that question how he picked me out? But he did
Speaker 1: was there was this robbery at night. Yes, is four
Speaker 1: o'clock in the morning. Four o'clock in the morning, so
Speaker 1: it's pitch dark outside, right, And this guy supposed we
Speaker 1: saw the robbery, right, But we know how I mean.
Speaker 1: And we also know that the brain, when you witness
Speaker 1: a violent crime I wouldn't identification is notoriously unreliable in
Speaker 1: the first place. Um, if somebody bust into the studio
Speaker 1: now and attacks on one of us, and then they
Speaker 1: put us in a lineup, there's almost just as much
Speaker 1: chance that someone who wasn't here will identify the correct
Speaker 1: perpetrator or not get the wrong perpetrator the same way
Speaker 1: that we will, which is a crazy thing. And people
Speaker 1: are listening going, that's not true, but it has been
Speaker 1: proven over and over again. But it's the brain goes crazy,
Speaker 1: so to speak, because of adrenaline and other factors when
Speaker 1: you're in the presence when you're actually in danger. Right,
Speaker 1: So when you're the either the victim or when your
Speaker 1: witness to a violent crime, as this one was, we
Speaker 1: know that your your your senses are um, you know,
Speaker 1: altered because of the fact that you're just scared out
Speaker 1: of your brain literally. So um, and this was one
Speaker 1: of those cases, right, this was a shooting. Yeah, there's two.
Speaker 1: I'll jump in here to help clarify this. So the
Speaker 1: witness we're talking about who was hypnotized by police, had
Speaker 1: claimed that he'd seen these um, these young African American
Speaker 1: males get into this cab. Then the cab goes to
Speaker 1: UM or allegedly goes to a housing project UM a
Speaker 1: little bit south of the city UM in Rosalindale. And
Speaker 1: then there was another witness that also had pretty serious
Speaker 1: question marks around how the police interacted with this witness.
Speaker 1: And this other witness claimed that he did actually see
Speaker 1: the shooting out of a window of an apartment in
Speaker 1: the housing project. UM. What Fred's attorneys later found out
Speaker 1: and really stressed and trying to re engage with this
Speaker 1: case and and and prove that Fred didn't do it,
Speaker 1: was see that this witness was I think a teenager.
Speaker 1: He had pretty severe developmental um, you know, cognitive issues UM.
Speaker 1: And that police furthermore told him and his family UM
Speaker 1: that if they testified against Fred UM, that they would
Speaker 1: be moved out of this project housing project which was
Speaker 1: mostly African American, into a housing project which was mostly white.
Speaker 1: And again this witness was white. Wow, So talk about
Speaker 1: coercion or you know, and isn't that a crazy thing
Speaker 1: to Chris and Fred? Is that everyone, even the most
Speaker 1: casual TV watcher right who watched his crime shows, knows
Speaker 1: that you cannot bribe a witnes if you go to
Speaker 1: prison for bribing witness in America, right, but the government
Speaker 1: is able to offer the best bribe that there is.
Speaker 1: I mean, in this case, it was a new home. Right,
Speaker 1: It's almost like a game show. Here's a new home.
Speaker 1: Just testify the way we want you to um. Or
Speaker 1: they can threaten you, or they can threaten you and
Speaker 1: they do that very often, will take your kids away,
Speaker 1: We'll lock you up for some prior thing whatever. Or
Speaker 1: they can also agree to vacate charges or reduce charges
Speaker 1: that they have against you. So it's it's amazing that
Speaker 1: the weapons that they have in there are so it's
Speaker 1: really not a fair fight whatsoever. But what were you
Speaker 1: gonna say? Ford? Um? Also, the witness that Christmas talking about,
Speaker 1: they happened to rosin they are projects. This witness I
Speaker 1: sort of I didn't know him personally, but we've seen
Speaker 1: each other from time and time in the projects. So
Speaker 1: he was familiar with my face. That's another thing that
Speaker 1: was really that was really not really mentioned. Mentioned a
Speaker 1: little bit, but it wasn't really focused on. So when
Speaker 1: someone recognized your face and they see your your picture
Speaker 1: in the in the photo of right, then they're not
Speaker 1: really picking out the perpetrated, they're picking out a familiar face.
Speaker 1: So just because he was fermiling my face, he sort
Speaker 1: of displaced me at the scene of crime based on
Speaker 1: the fact that he was for me with my face,
Speaker 1: not because he saw me at the scene the crime.
Speaker 1: So we have a couple of factors here that are
Speaker 1: very common and wrong for convictions. We have police misconduct,
Speaker 1: we have wrong flight witness identification, two of those in fact,
Speaker 1: and and then it gets worse. Um, so you were
Speaker 1: were you at home when you were arrested? How did
Speaker 1: this all go down? And how long did you have
Speaker 1: to wait for trial? Who? Who was your assume you
Speaker 1: got a public defender? Can you fill in some of
Speaker 1: those blanks for us? Fred, Yes, I was at the
Speaker 1: foster home when I got it. I was actually when
Speaker 1: I went I was on probation because I had some
Speaker 1: juvenile cases, so I I had some missues with the
Speaker 1: foster parent. I really didn't. She claims that our friend
Speaker 1: I ran away, but I never really ran away. I
Speaker 1: just you know, vanished from time and time and came back.
Speaker 1: But anyway, I showed up on Overmber fifteen through our
Speaker 1: house and I didn't know that, but she had previously
Speaker 1: reported me for running. So when I showed up on
Speaker 1: November fifteen, she informed me that I can stay at night,
Speaker 1: but at the same time, um, she she didn't want
Speaker 1: me to do it the next morning. I had to
Speaker 1: leave the next morning. So the next morning came and
Speaker 1: she told me I had to leave because she reported
Speaker 1: me running and she didn't want the police out are out,
Speaker 1: So I left, and I was on probation, so I
Speaker 1: went to probation officer and sort of told her about
Speaker 1: what was going on, and based on that, they sent
Speaker 1: me back to another facility that I was previously held
Speaker 1: that before, a juvenile facility, and I was there for
Speaker 1: a few football a little over a couple of weeks,
Speaker 1: I believe, and to playing Colzic tuts. Came in one
Speaker 1: even and they went up to the main desk to
Speaker 1: talk to the council of work there and maybe about
Speaker 1: two minutes after that, they called my name and I
Speaker 1: went to the desk and they asked me my name.
Speaker 1: I told my name is Frederick Clay, and they told
Speaker 1: me they needed to speak with me. So they took
Speaker 1: me to like a little room to the off to
Speaker 1: the side, and in that room they informed me that
Speaker 1: they was arrested me for murder. So I really didn't
Speaker 1: know anything about the murder until it actually they came
Speaker 1: there and arrest me for it. And my attorney at
Speaker 1: the time when I went to trial was Thomas Apprel.
Speaker 1: So it's kind of crazy how I was somewhat informed
Speaker 1: about the murder. How long were you in jail awaiting trial,
Speaker 1: because I'm assuming that there was either two years awaiting trial,
Speaker 1: so that whole thing about it in the constitution. Arrested
Speaker 1: November seventy nine, and I didn't go to trial into right.
Speaker 1: That whole thing in the constitution about your right to
Speaker 1: a speedy trial. Um, we really don't see that very
Speaker 1: often in this country. It's kind of weird. I don't
Speaker 1: know what how that can be so routinely ignored or violated,
Speaker 1: but it is, and your case is sadly not a
Speaker 1: typical in that sense. So you're in jail for two
Speaker 1: years two years awaiting trial, and let's go to the trial.
Speaker 1: Because um, it's always I think for our listeners and
Speaker 1: even for me an eye opener, uh, to hear how
Speaker 1: these things go, especially in a case as serious as
Speaker 1: this one where you were facing life in prison. Tell
Speaker 1: us what you can remember about the trial, for instance,
Speaker 1: did you think, um, if you can remember, and again,
Speaker 1: you were in prison for so long. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: it's actually crazy. You went to prison at sixteen and
Speaker 1: you were in for thirty eight years, which means you
Speaker 1: were in prison for almost two and a half times
Speaker 1: as long as you had been alive, right, and your
Speaker 1: life experience as a sixteen year old, Let's face it,
Speaker 1: the first three or four years, we're not even really
Speaker 1: sentient beings, were kind of just stumbling around, eating animal
Speaker 1: crackers or doing whatever we're doing, right, and playing with
Speaker 1: toys and having I'm gonna read us a book and
Speaker 1: hug us or if we're lucky. So you know, for you,
Speaker 1: your life experience was so brief before you entered the system,
Speaker 1: and you had already been in and out of the system.
Speaker 1: So um, here you are at trial, um, and did you,
Speaker 1: if you can recall, did you feel like when the
Speaker 1: jury went out that you were going to be convicted
Speaker 1: or did you still have hope that you did justice
Speaker 1: would be done. Well, I wasn't really sure that there
Speaker 1: was a chance that I was gonna get convicted. I thought,
Speaker 1: once I don't understand and tell the truth, and so
Speaker 1: sort of present my case and and present the evidence
Speaker 1: that I actually cool that I was innocent, and have
Speaker 1: an elephant present my alibi. I thought, I was I
Speaker 1: might have a chance of being found not guilty. So
Speaker 1: I was I was hoping that I was going to
Speaker 1: be found not guilty. But at the back of my mind,
Speaker 1: according to my attorneys, you know, there was a possible
Speaker 1: chance that I could get convicted. So I was positive,
Speaker 1: hopefully that I was going to get found out guilty.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, I was concerned that I
Speaker 1: will be found guilty. So and and just backtracking for
Speaker 1: a second, the witnesses against you were they white or black? Well,
Speaker 1: able them was black, I mean white, and one of
Speaker 1: them was black, but the one was black really didn't
Speaker 1: really really didn't really hurt me that much. But the
Speaker 1: two name was the es they white? And the reason
Speaker 1: I raised that question is because we know from decades
Speaker 1: of experience, research studies, etcetera. That cross racial identifications are
Speaker 1: just notoriously unreliable, um, much more so than when people are,
Speaker 1: you know, trying to identify someone of their own race. UM.
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of reasons for that. We
Speaker 1: don't have to get into all of them, but it's
Speaker 1: worth knowing because everyone that's listening right now, as I
Speaker 1: always say on this, always a potential juror, and someday
Speaker 1: they may be faced with a situation like yours, where
Speaker 1: there will be I mean, there was no evidence against you,
Speaker 1: so it was only the witness's word. And if it
Speaker 1: is a cross racial identification, and it doesn't matter whether
Speaker 1: that's why white person testifying against a black person, uh,
Speaker 1: Hispanic person testifying against a white person, whatever it might be,
Speaker 1: it's just not reliable and and and so your cases,
Speaker 1: it's important one to highlight that particular factor because again,
Speaker 1: the reason why I do the show for it is
Speaker 1: because I want to help to prevent these things from
Speaker 1: happening to other people in the future, as I'm sure
Speaker 1: you do. I'm not sure if if there was a
Speaker 1: well known fact by one the cross racial identification issue,
Speaker 1: but it's a well known fact now right, and I'm
Speaker 1: glad you brought that up. So so the jury comes
Speaker 1: back and it had to be the worst, uh, the
Speaker 1: worst feeling in the world. Um, you were sentenced to
Speaker 1: life in prison, which is again a bizarre a natural life,
Speaker 1: not just in life, a natural life. Life sort of
Speaker 1: means like a second degree life, but natural means the
Speaker 1: first degree life sentenced with with a chance of no parole,
Speaker 1: which means like a you go spend invest in your
Speaker 1: life in prison, you go and die in prison. And Chris,
Speaker 1: let's talk about that. I mean, I mean, what kind
Speaker 1: of a system do we have where we can sentence
Speaker 1: someone who was really a child and adolescent when this happened,
Speaker 1: a young teenager to life in prison. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's it is. It's just shocking. And you know, thankfully
Speaker 1: there were later, much later the Supreme Court decisions that
Speaker 1: that tried to undo some of that. So it did,
Speaker 1: at a very much later stage, did make Fred eligible
Speaker 1: for parole. But we're talking again decades later, Um, that
Speaker 1: there was some understanding of just how wrong that is
Speaker 1: that that obviously, to to charge someone at sixteen and
Speaker 1: put and put them to adult trial raises a lot
Speaker 1: of really serious squtions. But then to um to make
Speaker 1: that same person um prone to being convicted and sentenced
Speaker 1: to life without any chance of parole is all the
Speaker 1: more um shocking. Yeah, just think about it, or judge
Speaker 1: telling you, a sixteen year kid that you are incapable
Speaker 1: of changing, so therefore you need to spend the rest
Speaker 1: of your life in an adults prison, you know, and
Speaker 1: often think about that. And they took me out of
Speaker 1: a bad situation, and they put me in even a
Speaker 1: worse situation because a lot of people don't survive prison.
Speaker 1: And I was thinking about a lot of that stuff
Speaker 1: and how I was going to survive that. But I
Speaker 1: was going to end up being murdered, raped, killed, whatever.
Speaker 1: So just to have someone tell you at the age
Speaker 1: of sixteen that we think that you are in capable
Speaker 1: of changing. And when you went to prison, um, this
Speaker 1: was you know, this was the reality, right, I mean,
Speaker 1: this was a very violent place and you were in
Speaker 1: amongst people who were much older than you, stronger, um,
Speaker 1: you know, and here you are like thrust into this
Speaker 1: unimaginable nightmare. How did you managed to survive as a
Speaker 1: young not a particularly big tough guy, but you know,
Speaker 1: a young, skinny guy in that situation, How did you
Speaker 1: manage to survive well? Personally? I just paid a tense
Speaker 1: of to my surroundings. A lot of older gentlemans that
Speaker 1: was doing natural life sentence sort of took a liking
Speaker 1: to me, and they just sort of just gave me,
Speaker 1: just told me, uh, the way of prison life. Mind
Speaker 1: your business. If you see something, keep it to yourself,
Speaker 1: don't talk to corrections officers, trying to stay out of trouble,
Speaker 1: get into programs. Try to use that time to benefit
Speaker 1: me as a person, to change things about myself that
Speaker 1: I did not like, to uh, sort of use that
Speaker 1: time to work on me as a human being. And
Speaker 1: they also let me. They also told me I had
Speaker 1: to figure out how to do the time and not
Speaker 1: let the time do me. And it took me quite
Speaker 1: a while to understand that, and so, like what you mean,
Speaker 1: due to time and not let the time do me.
Speaker 1: So basically what they was telling me, just what I
Speaker 1: was telling you, is just try to use this bad
Speaker 1: experience and focus on the things that I don't do
Speaker 1: not like about myself and the things that I can
Speaker 1: change to make me feel good about myself and to
Speaker 1: make other people see me in a way that I
Speaker 1: want them to see me. So I had it was
Speaker 1: some it was a little bit of that, and it
Speaker 1: was just a little bit of me just figuring out
Speaker 1: who I can trust and who I can trust, and
Speaker 1: also not to put myself in a certain position to
Speaker 1: have some of these bad things happened to me. Just
Speaker 1: you know, make sure that who along I'm dealing with,
Speaker 1: be upfront with them about my situation and just uh
Speaker 1: be aware of the emotives, you know. And then there
Speaker 1: was a sort of a hero emerged, if you could
Speaker 1: call it that, from this situation, a guy named Roosevelt
Speaker 1: Pickett really helped to pull you out of this right
Speaker 1: and and introduced you to a very unlikely character who
Speaker 1: became almost like I don't use too strong, but we're
Speaker 1: almost like your savior, right, Um? And can you talk
Speaker 1: about that? Yeah, that whole situation so interesting to me.
Speaker 1: So can you talk about that a little bit. Well,
Speaker 1: Roosevelt Picket was he's an old gentleman. I think he
Speaker 1: was like in the sixties and I knew him at
Speaker 1: that time. I knew of about twelve years thirteen years,
Speaker 1: and he was also doing a life bit and he
Speaker 1: had he was he was walking the king so had
Speaker 1: an accident. He should do carriduty works and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: So he fell off the roof and he should walk
Speaker 1: around with a game. So anyway out, I used to
Speaker 1: work and if I was in Bay State Prison at
Speaker 1: this time, and I was working downstairs on the first
Speaker 1: floor in the day room, and he lived on the
Speaker 1: first floor. And he was down there cooking in the
Speaker 1: in the day room one afternoon and I was I
Speaker 1: was down there doing my job and everything, and he was.
Speaker 1: So we started talking about business and stuff like that,
Speaker 1: and he asked me, did I have anybody that you know,
Speaker 1: family members and friends that visit me? And I told him,
Speaker 1: uh not really, I had my great aunt. She visited
Speaker 1: me like every two years, three years a year, whenever
Speaker 1: she can find time to do it. So then he
Speaker 1: asked me if I was if I wanted somebody to
Speaker 1: visit me, like from a church and stuff like that,
Speaker 1: and I said, sure, why not. I've up in the
Speaker 1: opportunity to meet somebody from church and just have a
Speaker 1: friend to come visit me. So he put me, uh
Speaker 1: in touch with um prison ministry. I think it was
Speaker 1: called candle like Ministries, And I had to fill out
Speaker 1: some forms and stuff like that, and I filled out
Speaker 1: the forms and he sent it in. And I'm not
Speaker 1: quite sure how long after that. Uh, then I met
Speaker 1: Reverend fresh Small. He came to visit me and I
Speaker 1: was back, and I think that was like in and
Speaker 1: once he came to Bay State to visit me. Um.
Speaker 1: We so our friendship developed and got stronger and stronger.
Speaker 1: And the more he visited me, the more start talking
Speaker 1: about my case and and me as a person, and
Speaker 1: things I like and dislike and and I just take
Speaker 1: this interest. And so he helped me somewhat get out
Speaker 1: of prison. And then he spoke to his parishioners and
Speaker 1: asked if anybody would like to get involved in this,
Speaker 1: um you know, helping out, I guess, and you know,
Speaker 1: volunteering to make friends with someone on the inside. And
Speaker 1: it's interesting. People ask me that question a lot, and
Speaker 1: I'm always trying to connect people as best I can. UM.
Speaker 1: And in fact, a software engineer named Dorin Dibble, which
Speaker 1: is sort of an unusual name, right instead of an
Speaker 1: interesting If I was writing a movie about your story,
Speaker 1: I would name the guy Dorin Dibble. UM. So Dorin
Speaker 1: Dibble shows up some sort of a sort of a
Speaker 1: very square looking white guy. Right, so that comes in
Speaker 1: out of nowhere. What was your reaction when you met
Speaker 1: this guy? Well, he was funny, he was very smart,
Speaker 1: he was kind, He was very kind, he was generous,
Speaker 1: he was sincere, he was empathetic. Um, he told her,
Speaker 1: he told some jokes. I thought he was a very
Speaker 1: nice guy, and I thought, this is the kind of
Speaker 1: person that I need in my life to sort of
Speaker 1: help me take me out of my comfort zone, so
Speaker 1: to speak, because I wasn't really that social with in prison.
Speaker 1: So he sort of sort of brought me out of
Speaker 1: my shell a little bit. So I thought he was
Speaker 1: a very nice person something that it is someone that
Speaker 1: I needed to have in my life to help me grow, um,
Speaker 1: socially anyway, you know, and in many other ways after
Speaker 1: the after that, to be exact, And how how important
Speaker 1: was that relationship to you? It was very important. Um.
Speaker 1: I mean how many people do you know will bring
Speaker 1: their their young small children in to see a person
Speaker 1: in prison that's not a family. So he became uh,
Speaker 1: I know I used this phrase before. Um, he was
Speaker 1: a stranger in the beginning, but he became family to me,
Speaker 1: and and he's still family right now. So his friendship
Speaker 1: and him being part of my life was very very
Speaker 1: important then, and it's very important now. It's still in
Speaker 1: my life right now. And Chris and the article that
Speaker 1: you wrote about the case, I was really moved by
Speaker 1: this quote from Mr Dibble where he said, and I'm quoting,
Speaker 1: one of the amazing things for me is given his
Speaker 1: circumstances we're talking life without parole, his resilience, determination, and
Speaker 1: his decency through all that. It's a model to me.
Speaker 1: He didn't hate the establishment. We're white, he didn't care.
Speaker 1: I'm getting the chills, uh, just reading that. And you
Speaker 1: actually did the interview with him. I mean, can you
Speaker 1: share some insight into this guy because he really does
Speaker 1: emerge as a hero in this story. Yeah, no, it was,
Speaker 1: it is and was an incredible part of the of
Speaker 1: the whole story. And just sitting here honestly listening to
Speaker 1: Fred again, I really enjoyed every minute hanging out with
Speaker 1: Fred over the over the course of the last year.
Speaker 1: And I'm guessing that listeners can kind of get a
Speaker 1: feel as to how Fred talks and that people are
Speaker 1: kind of drawn to that that the way he talks
Speaker 1: and understands things about this really awful experience he had
Speaker 1: he had to go through. And um, so Dorin Dibble
Speaker 1: and his wife, Jackie, and and his two kids. I
Speaker 1: met one of his kids who's now, you know, in
Speaker 1: his twenties and and I hung out with them over
Speaker 1: dinner that they invited Fred over, and I asked to
Speaker 1: come along back in July. And UM, yeah, Dorin and
Speaker 1: his wife Jackie just um are really bighearted people. And
Speaker 1: um just showed up there in prison. You know, frequently
Speaker 1: during the year, like every few months, they would drive
Speaker 1: down and and go through. It's not easy to get
Speaker 1: into a prison. You gotta sit there and wait and
Speaker 1: get frisked down and go through metal detectors and wear
Speaker 1: the exactly the right clothing or they turn you away.
Speaker 1: And um, you know they again they brought their little
Speaker 1: kids into kind of hang out friend and sit there
Speaker 1: and play cards, and just the whole dynamic and relationship
Speaker 1: that that was related to me really kind of me away.
Speaker 1: It's almost like the family that Fred couldn't have and
Speaker 1: now all of a suddenly has sort of an adoptive
Speaker 1: family inside. And and you know, it was a long drive, um,
Speaker 1: and they would come every couple of months and there's
Speaker 1: one more quote, and I want to get back to
Speaker 1: the story because again this really touched me and I
Speaker 1: got the chills reading the last one. I'm going to
Speaker 1: get him again, Um, because Mr Dibble said, quote, we'd
Speaker 1: all piled back in the car when our visit was over,
Speaker 1: and it was just dead silence in the car, because
Speaker 1: that's where it really hit everybody. Oh, this is from
Speaker 1: Jackie Dibble. Let me say when we started again and
Speaker 1: and Mrs Dibbel Jackie Dibble said, quote, we'd all piled
Speaker 1: back in the car when our visit was over, and
Speaker 1: it was just dead silence in the car because that's
Speaker 1: where it really hit everybody. We'd walk out of there
Speaker 1: under the barbed wire. We get to go home, and
Speaker 1: he doesn't, and it was just nobody would say anything
Speaker 1: on the way home and end quote. And I've had
Speaker 1: that feeling so many times now, visiting people in and
Speaker 1: who I know are innocent, and then when I leave,
Speaker 1: um and that door slams behind and you can't take
Speaker 1: them with you. It's a horrible feeling. It's a it's
Speaker 1: a sick feeling actually, And Um, Chris is nodding his
Speaker 1: head because he knows, and you know it does drive me, uh,
Speaker 1: and I think all of us every day to try
Speaker 1: to do more to help people like yourself, Fred, because
Speaker 1: it's if you've once you've experienced that. And I brought
Speaker 1: four people with me up to Sing Sing this weekend
Speaker 1: where we met many of the men who are stuck there,
Speaker 1: some of whom are innocent, some are not. UM. But
Speaker 1: you know, I would say that nine of the people
Speaker 1: that we met there don't belong there. You know, they've
Speaker 1: served their time, they may have made a mistake. UM.
Speaker 1: I'm I'm of the Brian Stevenson school. He's one of
Speaker 1: my heroes. And you know he said, I believe everyone
Speaker 1: is better than the worst thing they've ever done. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, I think in our system, we over incarcerate
Speaker 1: to such an extreme degree, we overpunish. UM. The institutions
Speaker 1: that we have that are called correctional institutions are are
Speaker 1: not by and large, and all of it needs to change.
Speaker 1: And that's why it's so important that you're here, Fred
Speaker 1: to tell your story. So I really appreciate that, UM.
Speaker 1: And you two christ So, Fred tell us how this
Speaker 1: situation changed. Because you were sentenced to life in prison,
Speaker 1: you had no hope to get out. You found this
Speaker 1: inner strength, this grace, this courage that always mystifies me
Speaker 1: and amazes me and makes me, you know, draws me
Speaker 1: to people like yourself because I get so much UM
Speaker 1: out of just talking to you and and uh spending time.
Speaker 1: And so how did you ultimately, I mean, we know
Speaker 1: how you survive because you explain that, But how did
Speaker 1: you get out? Because you're here now and that's a
Speaker 1: fantastic thing, and I know, and I want to talk
Speaker 1: about the struggle of being out as well. That's what
Speaker 1: I what I call the second punishment. But how did that?
Speaker 1: Let's get to the happy stuff. How did you get out?
Speaker 1: But I got out on a new trial motion, um,
Speaker 1: they said, having off from the CPCs innocent program. She's
Speaker 1: my attorney, she was my attorney on our pill. We
Speaker 1: drafted and critique and finally finalized a new trial motion,
Speaker 1: and we followed that. I think when I was in
Speaker 1: Concrete Farm, UM, probably late two thousand sixteen, I believe. UM.
Speaker 1: It took a while. But between my witness identification, the hypnosis,
Speaker 1: cross racial identification UM, somewhat mug shot exposure. Some polician
Speaker 1: posts that the detectives somewhat I mean obviously overlooked. It
Speaker 1: was a combination of all that stuff together that helped
Speaker 1: me get out of prison. Um also and not in
Speaker 1: two thousand and thirteen, I would say, late December two
Speaker 1: thousand thirteen, the juvenile life for a large change which
Speaker 1: gave juveniles and opportunities, juvenile is under the age of
Speaker 1: eighteen an opportunity to see the parole board. So once
Speaker 1: that law changed, that law allowed me to see the
Speaker 1: parole board. So at that particular time, I was not
Speaker 1: I was still thinking about and preparing for my room
Speaker 1: thirt emotion, but I was also preparing for my parole
Speaker 1: hear me. So I end up going to parole May one, nineteen,
Speaker 1: two thousand and fifteen, I should say, and the results
Speaker 1: of that I end up getting. I presented my case
Speaker 1: a parole board, stating that I was innocent, but at
Speaker 1: the same time taking responsibility for the crimes that I
Speaker 1: did do. For the juvenile issue, the cases that I
Speaker 1: had previous of me getting arrested for this murder case,
Speaker 1: I took responsibility for all that stuff, but I did
Speaker 1: not take responsibility for the current case that I was
Speaker 1: doing time for Whippus the murder, and I let them
Speaker 1: know that if I did do it, I would have
Speaker 1: no problem taking responsibility to ment and guilt. But that's
Speaker 1: not the case. So I didn't. I did not admit
Speaker 1: to something I did not do. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: I was letting me know that prison, so you know,
Speaker 1: I mean by be being in prison, I was not
Speaker 1: the same person I was when I first went to prison.
Speaker 1: I was a different person sitting in front of them.
Speaker 1: So I just explained to him how different I was
Speaker 1: through programs and education and stuff like that. So basically
Speaker 1: I got up. I was going I was set to
Speaker 1: get out on parole anyway. I was scheduled to get
Speaker 1: out on parole August twelve, but August twelfth was on
Speaker 1: a Saturday, so they pushed it to August was on Monday.
Speaker 1: And tell you the truth, I'm not christ sure how
Speaker 1: this happened, but I ended up getting is onerated a
Speaker 1: week before I was scheduled to get released on parole.
Speaker 1: That is very unusual. And there's so many unusual things
Speaker 1: about your case. I mean, let's go back to the
Speaker 1: hypnosis thing, because even even though back then we you know,
Speaker 1: we didn't, we didn't know a lot of the things
Speaker 1: that we know now, but even back then, Walter Cronkite
Speaker 1: was on TV talking about how this hypnosis thing was
Speaker 1: a disaster and it didn't make any sense. Walter Cronkite
Speaker 1: were the most respected people in America at that time,
Speaker 1: when the most respected journalists of all time. Um, So,
Speaker 1: what was it like, Fred walking out into the fresh
Speaker 1: air after spending a longer time than than most of
Speaker 1: the people that are listening to this show have even
Speaker 1: been alive, right, I mean, we have two people in
Speaker 1: the studio here who haven't been alive that long years. Well,
Speaker 1: the first thing I did was, UM, hugged my attorneys,
Speaker 1: thank them very much. UM hugged Jack and Enduring Dibbles
Speaker 1: and their family. And Victor Vasario, he was there. I
Speaker 1: hugged him. And once I did that, I started talking
Speaker 1: to the media. So that was the first thing I did,
Speaker 1: start talking to the media, after I hugged my friends
Speaker 1: and stuff. But to answer your question what it was like,
Speaker 1: it was I felt very strange to be walking without
Speaker 1: outside of prison, without no shackles on my feet. That
Speaker 1: felt very strange. Every time I left prison, no matter
Speaker 1: to go to hospital, whatever, to the court, whatever, they
Speaker 1: always had shackles on your feet. And once they actually
Speaker 1: said that you're free to go, and they put me
Speaker 1: in the in the like the whole itself for a
Speaker 1: little while, for like an hour to finalize everything. So
Speaker 1: once everything was finalized and they opened the cell door
Speaker 1: and I walked downstairs, and I actually walked downstairs to
Speaker 1: be outside, it felt very strange, um, to be, like
Speaker 1: I said, to be walking without throw chackles on my feet.
Speaker 1: I thought it was a dream. But then again it
Speaker 1: wasn't a dream, but it was kind of overwhelming. It
Speaker 1: was I was happy, I was somewhat cautious, uh, and
Speaker 1: I was like then shocked to some degree. So it
Speaker 1: was there was a combination of all those things. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it's a it's a joyous uh, you know,
Speaker 1: just thinking about it and visiting it's such a joyous thing.
Speaker 1: But I think that um, people get the idea that,
Speaker 1: you know, if everyone sees on the me on the news,
Speaker 1: the photographs or the video of someone like yourself coming out,
Speaker 1: and there's all this joy and you have if you're
Speaker 1: if you're fortunate enough like you were to have some
Speaker 1: friends and family around, and there's news media and there's
Speaker 1: cameras and maybe the sun is shining. But there's another
Speaker 1: side to that too, right. I mean, you come out
Speaker 1: and you get nothing like most of the people. And
Speaker 1: this is crazy because for twenty five years I've been
Speaker 1: doing this work and anyone I talked to that's not aware.
Speaker 1: You know. When I meet somebody new and I'm talking
Speaker 1: about this is because I talk about it everywhere, the
Speaker 1: first thing they want to know is does the exonore
Speaker 1: you get paid? Like, just tell me they get money?
Speaker 1: And I have to tell them that in most cases no,
Speaker 1: and even in the cases when they do, it takes
Speaker 1: an unconscionably long time, years and years. Um. This is
Speaker 1: something that the Instance Project has been deeply involved with. Recently,
Speaker 1: we just passed the compensation statue in Kansas, so it's
Speaker 1: the thirty first state to actually have compensations. That is,
Speaker 1: there's still nineteen states that have none, no compensation statues. Um.
Speaker 1: And for you Fred, coming out of prison at the
Speaker 1: thirty eight years, having gone in as a sixteen year
Speaker 1: old kid, um, you know, trying to rebuild your life.
Speaker 1: I want to focus for a minute on those challenges
Speaker 1: which I don't think get the type of attention that
Speaker 1: they deserve. And I think we as a society owe
Speaker 1: you and every man and woman that has been through
Speaker 1: this type of ordeal, we owe you more than a
Speaker 1: fresh start. I mean, we owe you a debt. And
Speaker 1: I think that as soon as you get out that
Speaker 1: should start to be getting repaid. But that's not the
Speaker 1: way it works, and your case is a very strong
Speaker 1: example of that. So can you talk about the the challenges?
Speaker 1: I mean, have you haven't gotten any money yet? Right? Well,
Speaker 1: um my turns working on that right now, so it's
Speaker 1: still to be remained to be still being worked on.
Speaker 1: And how long How long have you been out? Not
Speaker 1: over year now, so it's been August eight, so it's
Speaker 1: been good over the year, fifteen sixteen months like that. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I can jump in here a little bit. I mean,
Speaker 1: this was this was this was the focus of my
Speaker 1: reporting for the last year was to to kind of
Speaker 1: answer that question, what's life like when you get out
Speaker 1: of prison? His? His, his, Fred's murder conviction was vacated,
Speaker 1: and um, you know, my my editors suggested, why don't
Speaker 1: we see what life's like in the first thirty days?
Speaker 1: And that turned into what are we uh, why don't
Speaker 1: I check in with Fred from time to time over
Speaker 1: the course of a year, and UM and Fred can
Speaker 1: kind of fill in a lot of stuff, but that
Speaker 1: a lot of it was you know, what, what do
Speaker 1: you do to survive? You need you need housing, you
Speaker 1: need shelter, and you need some in UM to provide
Speaker 1: that shelter and food, just the base bare basics of survival.
Speaker 1: And that was what you know, Fred and I would
Speaker 1: kind of meet up and he would very graciously let
Speaker 1: me tag along with him as UM he talked to
Speaker 1: people about filling out job applications and trying to work
Speaker 1: in a resume and and watched him move from one
Speaker 1: apartment to another apartment. UM, and I think, you know,
Speaker 1: maybe Fred, you could talk a little bit about what
Speaker 1: those experiences. Not really a partners a room, but yeah, UM,
Speaker 1: it's it's been kind of challenging, UM, when you've been
Speaker 1: a person what I long. Obviously technology has changed, and
Speaker 1: technology definitely has changed to the point where it's all
Speaker 1: new to me. UM often make this phrase, It's like
Speaker 1: I've been reborn again and I have to learn everything
Speaker 1: all over again, including technology. So and even how do
Speaker 1: you fill out job applications now it's different compared to
Speaker 1: when I was back in the seventies and stuff. Does
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff we've got to fill out online
Speaker 1: now as far as pretty much everything, housing application, job applications, everything.
Speaker 1: So the challenge of learning the technology is still the challenge. Um.
Speaker 1: I'm still I know a little bit, but there's a
Speaker 1: whole lot more that I need to learn. And that's
Speaker 1: been kind of, um, frustrating and exciting at the same
Speaker 1: time and aggravating. But at the same time, I've been
Speaker 1: reminded myself that hopefully, eventually I get there. I just
Speaker 1: need to be patient with myself. But trying to survive
Speaker 1: out here when you've been in prison that long, it's
Speaker 1: kind of difficult. Um, even maintaining a job. Uh's it's
Speaker 1: been kind of challenging. I'm still dealing with that. Oh
Speaker 1: what what What part of Massachusetts are you living in?
Speaker 1: Al fred I'm living in Lower Massachusetts. So that's right
Speaker 1: by Boston, right, Um, it's not, it's it's it's by Boston,
Speaker 1: but I wouldn't call it right by it. It's some distance, yes,
Speaker 1: but it is by Boston, about an hour north of Boston.
Speaker 1: And when you don't drive, that's another thing. I really
Speaker 1: I haven't really started driving yet and when you when
Speaker 1: you don't know how to drive, you're very limited. So
Speaker 1: I'm sort of restricted to a certain area and low
Speaker 1: and that's been kind of challenging. The public transportation here
Speaker 1: is not that great. It's shuts down at seven o'clock
Speaker 1: in the evening, and that's been an issue that I
Speaker 1: still struggle with today. So I need to learn how
Speaker 1: to drive in order to get more access to resources, jobs, housing,
Speaker 1: just to get around. I need to learn how to drive.
Speaker 1: And people been offering their help, and I've even been
Speaker 1: thinking about going through driving school, but it's just the
Speaker 1: thought of it is fine. It's just putting an action,
Speaker 1: is you know, trying to figure out when the right
Speaker 1: time is. Maybe there is an all right time and
Speaker 1: I just need to just jump into it and do it.
Speaker 1: But all that's been kind of challenging to me figure
Speaker 1: out what's important, what's not important, trying to prioritize things.
Speaker 1: That's been a big issue. And I can tell just
Speaker 1: from the way you know you are and the way
Speaker 1: that you've dealt with this situation that I think anybody
Speaker 1: I know, except the Xiason I know, actually would have
Speaker 1: crumbled under the weight of this um unreal ordeal. Um,
Speaker 1: so I know you're going to be successful, but I
Speaker 1: think all of us just need a little boost every
Speaker 1: once in a while. So I'm happy to say that. Um,
Speaker 1: that's something I'm gonna be able to to to provide.
Speaker 1: So UM, I do want to um, I want to
Speaker 1: ask you also, what if you can think of it,
Speaker 1: what's been your happiest moment, uh since you got out.
Speaker 1: It's interesting I'm seeing I'm looking at a picture right
Speaker 1: now if you with the with the dibbls um with
Speaker 1: Dorn and Jackie. It's really sort of a funny picture.
Speaker 1: I mean, you have this giant smile on your face
Speaker 1: and uh, the glasses on and and they you know,
Speaker 1: there's obviously smiling too. But I mean they're really white,
Speaker 1: these people are. You know. It's really just an interesting,
Speaker 1: you know, uh photograph because the it's just such an
Speaker 1: unusual uh you know, a combination of different backgrounds and
Speaker 1: but but it's there's a lot of humanity in that right,
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of beauty. There's a lot of
Speaker 1: beauty in it. So, um, I mean, aside from the
Speaker 1: moment when you first stepped out, which must have been
Speaker 1: as much of a shock as anything else. What's been
Speaker 1: your happiest memory since in the fifteen sixty months since
Speaker 1: you got out. Well, it's there's a few visiting my
Speaker 1: mother's grave that was very happy. But I would say
Speaker 1: right now, the skydiving. M hm, you went skydiving. I
Speaker 1: went skydiving twice, And I would say that. I said
Speaker 1: that because some guys that I was in prison with
Speaker 1: that end up passing away. In prison often, you know,
Speaker 1: we often talked about skydiving and and we watched some
Speaker 1: programs on on double G B H about skydiving and
Speaker 1: stuff like that, and we said to ourselves that they
Speaker 1: look a lot of fun, you know, look like fun
Speaker 1: and look like the people was enjoying themselves. So when
Speaker 1: I went skydiving, I was sort of like dedicating that
Speaker 1: moment to them because they sort of helped me change
Speaker 1: who I was as a person. They sort of helped
Speaker 1: me get back into my case and make me stay
Speaker 1: focused on that. So, um, when I sky dived the
Speaker 1: first time, it was just to honor them and for
Speaker 1: me to thank them and to show respect for them
Speaker 1: for what they did for me, because at that time
Speaker 1: and I still do now, I consider myself very lucky.
Speaker 1: So that was a very especial moment the first time.
Speaker 1: In the second time too, because the second time when
Speaker 1: I went skydiving, I went with a lot of exoter people,
Speaker 1: people that was in my someone in my situation. We
Speaker 1: all had our individual cases that end up that we
Speaker 1: end up in prison for what we always innocent, and
Speaker 1: so it was kind of special to be with them
Speaker 1: that way. I felt, you know, that I was surrounded
Speaker 1: by people who actually knew what I was going through,
Speaker 1: and they didn't have no problem sharing what they was
Speaker 1: going through, what they went through in prison and what
Speaker 1: they're dealing with now out here that you be short
Speaker 1: of to share our experience and share their knowledge and
Speaker 1: helping each other. So that was kind of special. And also, um,
Speaker 1: when I jump out the plane a second time, it's
Speaker 1: sort of reminded me of life. When you jump out
Speaker 1: the plane, there is no turning back. You came to say, well,
Speaker 1: I changed my mind, I want to go back. Once
Speaker 1: you jump out the plane, you you and the elements,
Speaker 1: and so you've got to face whatever there whatever whatever
Speaker 1: fear you have, whatever there is, you've got to face that.
Speaker 1: And it sort of reminds me about my life right now,
Speaker 1: whatever it is in life that I'm uncomfortable with I
Speaker 1: have feel about I have to try to face it
Speaker 1: and try to do the best I can. So to
Speaker 1: answer your question, the sky diving was the most important
Speaker 1: thing to me, Well, that's an incredible uh story and
Speaker 1: very moving and very just amazing to think about. But
Speaker 1: I will say this, if you can jump out of
Speaker 1: a plane, you can definitely only drive a car. And
Speaker 1: I'm gonna make you a deal right here in front
Speaker 1: of however many hundred thousand people listening to this show.
Speaker 1: If you'll take your driver's course wrongful conviction will get
Speaker 1: you a car. So that'll be our deal. Um, you
Speaker 1: gotta go make sure you can drive it. But if
Speaker 1: you can do it, we'll get you a car, all right.
Speaker 1: And then then then me and Chris are coming and
Speaker 1: we're gonna take a ride with you. So because we're
Speaker 1: you jump out of a plane, I'm good end the
Speaker 1: car with you behind a wheel, no problem. Okay, okay, okay,
Speaker 1: all right, we gotta deal. We gotta deal. We have
Speaker 1: a hundred thousand witnesses, So there you go. Um, well
Speaker 1: you know it's it's it's amazing, Fred, you know that,
Speaker 1: um um, And I am going to put that to
Speaker 1: to say something, I want to take one witnesses to
Speaker 1: get someone convicted, never mind hundred thousand. Right there you go. So, um,
Speaker 1: we have a tradition here on wrongful conviction, which is
Speaker 1: my favorite part of the show. I think it's everybody's
Speaker 1: favorite part of the show, which is that at the
Speaker 1: end of the show, which is now, I always, of
Speaker 1: course thank both of you, Um, Chris and Fred for
Speaker 1: being here and sharing your your story and and your
Speaker 1: wisdom Chris and experience. UM, so I'm thanking you now.
Speaker 1: And then also at the end of the show, the
Speaker 1: featured part is where I get to stop talking and
Speaker 1: do all the listening. And what how this works is
Speaker 1: I just turned the microphone over to you for any
Speaker 1: closing thoughts that you have if you have any no pressure, Um,
Speaker 1: but the microphone is yours, so let's start with you. Chris,
Speaker 1: UM anything any last words, well as as always like
Speaker 1: it's really fascinating for me to to listen to Fred
Speaker 1: and UM was the real privilege as a reporter to
Speaker 1: get to Um, you know, spend time with him and
Speaker 1: have work in a place and have editors that that
Speaker 1: saw how important that was to do it. And UM Um,
Speaker 1: it's again. I think Fred Um just went through something
Speaker 1: really awful and has these amazing insights about what his
Speaker 1: experience was. And it's not surprising that he drew Um
Speaker 1: the kind of support to him that he did, because again,
Speaker 1: he's able to kind of reflect and share. He is
Speaker 1: a great sense of humor and um it's uh. It's
Speaker 1: kind of brings me back to what it was like
Speaker 1: talking with him over over these last many months. So
Speaker 1: happy to be here again. Chris Barrel, thank you again
Speaker 1: for being here on Wrongful Conviction, And now over to
Speaker 1: you Fred for your last words and thoughts. I want
Speaker 1: to thank you for the opportunity to speak on the podcast,
Speaker 1: and I want to thank for Brell for bugging me
Speaker 1: to do this. I'm just joking, but who come to
Speaker 1: me in the beginning when I first got out and
Speaker 1: presented the opportunity for him to follow me and talk
Speaker 1: about the the person's life after the cameras go away. Um.
Speaker 1: I'm sort of glad that he did not, because it
Speaker 1: made me stay true to who I was, and it
Speaker 1: made me more focused about my situation and at the
Speaker 1: same time it brought me out of my show so
Speaker 1: to speak to and I want to say that people
Speaker 1: sometimes asked me about why am I not better about
Speaker 1: my situation? Um, don't get me wrong, I'm definitely upset
Speaker 1: about what happened to me. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: it's sort of made me aware of who I was
Speaker 1: at that time as a person, and it made me
Speaker 1: change who I was to who I may or right
Speaker 1: now today. And I must say I like the person
Speaker 1: I've become today. I didn't like myself back then, and
Speaker 1: it made me think about those things. So in the
Speaker 1: process of sharing my my story with Chris is sort
Speaker 1: of made me realize that too. So I thank him
Speaker 1: for the opportunity to make me aware of that. And
Speaker 1: I won't thank my attorney's lift Lisa Kavanaugh and Jeffrey Harris,
Speaker 1: and my attorney who passed away, Emmanuel Howard. I want
Speaker 1: to thank or trade him for helping me get to
Speaker 1: where I'm at today. And my supporters to the devils
Speaker 1: fresh Smalls. These are so many people, so many people
Speaker 1: help me. I won't thank everybody for that. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: just took me a minute to collect myself. But um, well,
Speaker 1: once again you've been listening to Wrongful Conviction. Today's episode
Speaker 1: featuring investigative journalist Chris Barrell and Fred Play exonerated it
Speaker 1: after thirty eight years in prison for a murder he
Speaker 1: didn't commit. Gentlemen, thank you again for being on the show.
Speaker 1: Um and uh, I look forward to um to to
Speaker 1: take a ride through Lole with the with the music
Speaker 1: last and loud, I hope with YouTube guys, and maybe
Speaker 1: we'll go and pick up the Divils along the way.
Speaker 1: So um, and that's a and that's a that's a
Speaker 1: bet so um. Thanks again and uh, we'll keep the
Speaker 1: conversation moving. Thank you, Okay, I appreciate it very much.
Speaker 1: Thanks Fred, don't forget to give us a fantastic review.
Speaker 1: Wherever you get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm
Speaker 1: a proud donor to the Innocence Project and I really
Speaker 1: hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause
Speaker 1: and helping to prevent future wrong for con actions. Go
Speaker 1: to Innocence Project dot org to learn how to donate
Speaker 1: and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team,
Speaker 1: Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis. The music in the show
Speaker 1: is by three time Oscar nomine composer Jay Ralph. Be
Speaker 1: sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction. Podcast rang Full Conviction with
Speaker 1: Jason Flam is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts
Speaker 1: and association with Signal Company Number one