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Speaker 1: This call is from a correction facility, and it's subject

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Speaker 1: to monitoring and recording.

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Speaker 2: I can put athlete eleven and it hasn't been.

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Speaker 3: Easy a hundred years.

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Speaker 1: That's man.

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Speaker 3: I'm a kid. I didn't do anything, you know, and uh,

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Speaker 3: you know that was a that was real painful, man,

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Speaker 3: you know, because my life was discarded as if you know,

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Speaker 3: like I was a piece of trash or something, you know,

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Speaker 3: one hundred years and I had dreams and I wanted

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Speaker 3: to do things. I wasn't committing crimes, you know. I

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Speaker 3: was a very good young man.

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Speaker 4: That is what happens in so many cases. The cops

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Speaker 4: have a hunch, because they're so smart at the scene,

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Speaker 4: they have a hunch, and once they act on that hunch,

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Speaker 4: they sort of developed tunnel vision and they take off

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Speaker 4: marching in the wrong direction. And that happens in so

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Speaker 4: many of these wrongful convictions.

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Speaker 1: The opening to sell door and I'll walk down stif

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Speaker 1: and I actually walked down stairs to be outside. It

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Speaker 1: felt very strange to be, like I said, to be

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Speaker 1: walking without no shackles on my feet. I thought it

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Speaker 1: was a dream. But then again, it wasn't a dream.

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Speaker 5: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. This

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Speaker 5: is Jason Flamm. I'm your host, and today we have

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Speaker 5: an extraordinary episode. I mean, I am I don't even

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Speaker 5: I'm at a loss for words, but I'm going to

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Speaker 5: introduce our guests right now. Fred Clay was wrongfully imprisoned

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Speaker 5: at the age of sixteen and served thirty eight years

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Speaker 5: for a murder he didn't commit. Fred, Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 1: Thank you very much, very long. I appreciate it very much.

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Speaker 5: I always say I'm glad, I'm sorry you're here, but

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Speaker 5: I'm glad you're here, and I want to start off

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Speaker 5: by apologizing to you on behalf of the human race

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Speaker 5: and America and people and just there's nothing that can

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Speaker 5: be said, but let me just put that out there

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Speaker 5: for starters and with us. Today is Chris Barrell. Chris

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Speaker 5: Barrell is an investigative reporter with the nonprofit New England

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Speaker 5: Center for Investigative Reporting, a WGBH News partner who does

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Speaker 5: work on well, he's worked on your case. You're telling

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Speaker 5: your story and as many others well as many others.

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Speaker 5: So Chris, welcome, Glad you're here.

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Speaker 6: Thanks very much, glad to be here.

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Speaker 5: Chris, how did you first come across this story and

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Speaker 5: why did it impact you so much that you wanted

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Speaker 5: to do an article about it.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, well, I work for the New England Center for

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Speaker 6: Investigative Reporting. We've done several stories on wrongful conviction cases

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Speaker 6: and specifically this issue of you know, what happens afterwards,

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Speaker 6: because we do know there's a fair amount of media

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Speaker 6: attention when this happen and somebody's served a long amount

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Speaker 6: of time for a crime that they that they didn't

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Speaker 6: do and they're released and it's you know, a lot

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Speaker 6: of applause and a lot of TV cameras. So I

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Speaker 6: was there the day he got out, as was a

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Speaker 6: lot of other media. But the question came up, well,

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Speaker 6: what is what is life really like? You know, once

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Speaker 6: this kind of once the applause fades, what is what

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Speaker 6: is what is a person's life really like? So initially

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Speaker 6: Fred was not that keen on me proffering this idea

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Speaker 6: of following him around at different points over the course

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Speaker 6: of about a year, but I met with him on

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Speaker 6: a couple occasions and he seemed open to it, and

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Speaker 6: so we just struck up this this intervals of trying

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Speaker 6: to meet up and I wanted to see him in

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Speaker 6: different situations, trying to navigate again the basic survival, the blocks,

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Speaker 6: the basic blocks of survival. How do you, how do

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Speaker 6: you find shelter, how do you how do you feed yourself?

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Speaker 6: And so for the first few months he didn't he

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Speaker 6: didn't have a job. He had a little bit of

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Speaker 6: money from from a go fund Me site and he

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Speaker 6: had food stamps. And his first job was working for UPS,

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Speaker 6: which was very uneven work. He'd show up for a

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Speaker 6: shift and they'd tell him, well, we've only got a

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Speaker 6: couple hours work instead of a full shift, and he'd

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Speaker 6: walk home through the snow in the street because people

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Speaker 6: didn't show their sidewalks, and we get a lot of

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Speaker 6: snow up in northern Massachusetts. And it wasn't until sometime

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Speaker 6: late winter, early spring that he got this job precision

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Speaker 6: grinding aviation parts, grinding metal, and he seemed really grateful

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Speaker 6: to have that work. But as everybody knows, rent in

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Speaker 6: most cities in America is really high, and the most

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Speaker 6: he could afford was basically a room and a basement.

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Speaker 6: And he said at least once that that room kind

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Speaker 6: of reminded him, reminded him of prison. All it had

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Speaker 6: was a tiny window, not a whole lot of light

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Speaker 6: coming into it. And that was the best that his

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Speaker 6: circumstance this can allow.

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Speaker 5: So, Frederick, this is such an insane story because even

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Speaker 5: though we're in our eighth season of Wrongful Conviction, we've

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Speaker 5: told over seventy stories already. H and Just and I've

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Speaker 5: been working for twenty five years in this struggle. I'm

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Speaker 5: the founding board member of the Innocence Project. I thought

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Speaker 5: I heard everything until I heard your story. And you know,

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Speaker 5: seeing the pictures of you as a sixteen year old

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Speaker 5: child really just scared out of your mind faced with

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Speaker 5: this nightmare situation. It almost it almost reminded me of

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Speaker 5: Emmett Till or something. It was just so it just

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Speaker 5: hurts my heart. But let's go back to that time.

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Speaker 5: You were living in a foster home.

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Speaker 1: At that time, right, Yes, I was living a foster home.

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Speaker 1: I was placed in it by DYS. I have some

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Speaker 1: juvenile cases and I got convicted too. I got sentenced

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Speaker 1: to like to DYS and he sent me to Boys

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Speaker 1: into Center and stay there for a little while month

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Speaker 1: from there to a program stay of football six months,

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Speaker 1: I believe, and they decided that I need to be

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Speaker 1: in a falseter home. So I was in a fossil

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Speaker 1: home at that.

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Speaker 5: Time, and you were not a big guy either. You

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Speaker 5: were like I mean, I remember reading that when this happened,

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Speaker 5: you were like five four, about one hundred pounds. You

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Speaker 5: were obviously ill prepared for any type of scenario, Like

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Speaker 5: there's no one's prepared for it. But let's go back

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Speaker 5: to it and Chris jump in anytime. I mean, how

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Speaker 5: did this happen?

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Speaker 1: Was?

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Speaker 5: Why was Fred targeted for? This was the murder of

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Speaker 5: a taxi driver in Massachusetts? Right? And can you give

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Speaker 5: us a little background on that?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, I mean, the way I understand it is.

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Speaker 6: Fred was arrested just a few weeks after turning sixteen,

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Speaker 6: charged with the murder of a cab driver. The really

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Speaker 6: crazy part of the story was that one of another

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Speaker 6: cab driver who saw three young Africa American men get

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Speaker 6: into a cab, said he was able to id one

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Speaker 6: of them another the second person he couldn't id, and

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Speaker 6: the police used the practice they used back then of

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Speaker 6: hypnotizing a witness in a case, believing that the brain

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Speaker 6: functioned a lot like a videotape and that you could

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Speaker 6: put a witness under hypnosis and ask them to rewind

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Speaker 6: to a certain date and time, and suddenly your brain

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Speaker 6: would see things that hadn't recalled before. And that was

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Speaker 6: one of the pieces that led police to arrest and

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Speaker 6: charge Fred and ultimately for prosecutors to convict him.

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Speaker 5: But this Fred, this witness, how did he come to

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Speaker 5: identify you? Were you anywhere near the scene at the time?

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Speaker 5: Did you know these people?

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Speaker 1: I was not in the scene. I was in a

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Speaker 1: Foster home and sleeping in the bed. I really don't

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Speaker 1: know how he became to identify me. I really can't

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Speaker 1: answer that question. He claims he saw the picture of

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Speaker 1: the cab driver of the cab in the front page

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Speaker 1: of the Boston Globe, and he recognized the cap number.

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Speaker 1: I guess one of his friends used to break that

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Speaker 1: cap and he thought, he's, uh, the perpetrators get into

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Speaker 1: the cab the previous night, and I guess he just

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Speaker 1: went to the police station and tried to cooperate with

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Speaker 1: the police. There was hypnosis involved. I think he was

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Speaker 1: showing my picture a few times, like four or five,

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Speaker 1: six times, and when they hypnotized them, instead of him

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Speaker 1: actually placing it, you know, actually viewing the people, the

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Speaker 1: perpetrator at the scene of crime. He's sort of like mugshot.

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Speaker 1: Sort of my faith from the mugshot.

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Speaker 5: Was in his mind, right, So yeah, I mean what

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Speaker 5: we know that hypnosis, Going back to what Chris was saying,

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Speaker 5: hypnosis will make you see things you haven't seen before,

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Speaker 5: but they will may not have any collection to reality. Right,

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Speaker 5: that's the problem.

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Speaker 1: I don't think. I don't think the hypnosi had anything

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Speaker 1: to do with when someone shows you a photograph five

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Speaker 1: or six times, that face is somewhat imprinted in your mind.

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Speaker 5: Of course. I mean, that's one thing we do know

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Speaker 5: about the mind is if you keep getting repeated the

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Speaker 5: same image repeated over and over again, it's going to

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Speaker 5: play tricks on your mind, and your mind will start

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Speaker 5: to go in that place.

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Speaker 1: And was this That's why I think what happened. He

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Speaker 1: just does your mind played his mind played tricks on something.

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Speaker 1: I really can't I really can't answer that question how

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Speaker 1: he picked me out? But he did.

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Speaker 5: Was there was this robbery at night?

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Speaker 1: Yes, it's four o'clock in the morning, four.

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Speaker 5: O'clock in the morning, so it's pitch dark outside, right,

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Speaker 5: and this guy supposedly saw the robbery, right, But we

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Speaker 5: know how I mean, and we also know that the

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Speaker 5: brain when you witness a violent crime I wouldn't identification

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Speaker 5: is notoriously unreliable in the first place. If somebody busts

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Speaker 5: into the studio now and attacks one of us, and

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Speaker 5: then they put us in a lineup, there's almost just

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Speaker 5: as much chance that someone who wasn't here will identify

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Speaker 5: the correct perpetrator or not get the wrong perpetrator the

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Speaker 5: same way that we will, which is a crazy and

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Speaker 5: people listening going, that's not true, but it has been

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Speaker 5: proven over and over again. But it's the brain goes crazy,

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Speaker 5: so to speak, because of adrenaline and other factors when

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Speaker 5: you're in the presence when you're actually in danger. Right, So,

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Speaker 5: when you're either the victim or when you're witness to

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Speaker 5: a violent crime, as this one was, we know that

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Speaker 5: your senses are altered because of the fact that you're

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Speaker 5: just scared out of your brain literally. So and this

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Speaker 5: was one of those cases, right, this was a shooting.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, there's two. I'll jump in here to help clarify this.

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Speaker 6: So the witness we're talking about, who was hypnotized by police,

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Speaker 6: had claimed that he'd seen these these young African American

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Speaker 6: males get into this cab. Then the cab goes or

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Speaker 6: allegedly goes to a housing project a little bit south

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Speaker 6: of the city in Roslindale. And then there was another

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Speaker 6: witness that also had pretty serious question marks around how

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Speaker 6: the police interacted with this witness, and this other witness

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Speaker 6: claimed that he did actually see the shooting out of

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Speaker 6: a window of an apartment in the housing project. What

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Speaker 6: Fred's attorneys later found out and really stressed and trying

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Speaker 6: to re engage with this case and prove that Fred

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Speaker 6: didn't do it, was see that this witness was I

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Speaker 6: think a teenager. He had pretty severe developmental, you know,

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Speaker 6: cognitive issues, and that police furthermore told him and his

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Speaker 6: family that if they testified against Fred, that they would

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Speaker 6: be moved out of this project housing project which was

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Speaker 6: mostly African American, into a housing project which was mostly white.

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Speaker 6: And again this witness was white.

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Speaker 5: Wow, so you talk about coercion or you know, And

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Speaker 5: isn't that a crazy thing to Chris and Fred is

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Speaker 5: that everyone, even the most casual TV watcher right who

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Speaker 5: watched his crime shows, knows that you cannot bribe a witness.

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Speaker 5: You go to prison for riving witness in America. Right,

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Speaker 5: but the government is able to offer the best bribe

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Speaker 5: that there is. I mean, in this case, it was

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Speaker 5: a new home. Right, It's almost like a game show.

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Speaker 5: Here's a new home. Just testify the way we want

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Speaker 5: you to. Or they can threaten you. Or they can

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Speaker 5: threaten you, and they do that very often, will take

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Speaker 5: your kids away, will lock you up for some prior

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Speaker 5: thing whatever. Or they can also agree to vacate charges

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Speaker 5: or reduce charges that they have against you. So it's

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Speaker 5: amazing that the weapons that they have in there are

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Speaker 5: so it's really not a fair fight whatsoever. But what

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Speaker 5: were you going to say? Fred?

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Speaker 1: Also the witness that Chris was talking about, they happened

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Speaker 1: to Ros and their projects. This witness I sort of

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Speaker 1: I didn't know him personally, but we've seen each other

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Speaker 1: from time to time in the projects, so he was

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Speaker 1: familiar with my faith. That's another thing that was really

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Speaker 1: that was really not really mentioned a little bit, but

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Speaker 1: it wasn't really focused on. So when someone recognized your

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Speaker 1: face and they see your your picture in the in

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Speaker 1: the photo array, then they're not really picking out the perpetrated.

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Speaker 1: They're picking out a familiar face. So just because he

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Speaker 1: was familiar with by face. He sort of just placed

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Speaker 1: me at the scene of crime based on the fact

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Speaker 1: that he was familiar with my face, not because he

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Speaker 1: saw me at the scene the crime.

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Speaker 5: So we have a couple of factors here that are

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Speaker 5: very common and wrong for convictions. We have police misconduct,

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Speaker 5: we have wrong flight witness identification, two of those in fact,

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Speaker 5: and then it gets worse. So you were were you

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Speaker 5: at home when you were arrested? How did this all

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Speaker 5: go down? And how long did you have to wait

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Speaker 5: for trial? Who was your I assume you had a

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Speaker 5: public defender. Can you fill in some of those blanks

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Speaker 5: for us?

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Speaker 1: Fred, Yes, I was at the foster home when I

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Speaker 1: got it. I was actually when I went, I was

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Speaker 1: on probation because I had some juvenile cases, so I

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Speaker 1: had some issuons with the foster parent. I really didn't.

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Speaker 1: And she claims I ran away, but I never really

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Speaker 1: ran away. I just you know, vanished from time to

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Speaker 1: time and came back. But anyway, I showed up on

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Speaker 1: November fifteen through her house and I didn't know that,

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Speaker 1: but she had previously reported me for running. So when

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Speaker 1: I showed up on November fifteen, she informed me that

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Speaker 1: I can stay that night, but at the same time,

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Speaker 1: she didn't want me to do the next morning. I

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Speaker 1: had to leave the next morning. So the next morning

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Speaker 1: came and she told me I had to leave because

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Speaker 1: she reported me running. She didn't want the police that

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Speaker 1: are out, so I left, and I was on probation,

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Speaker 1: so I went to the probation officer and sort of

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Speaker 1: told her what was going on, and based on that,

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Speaker 1: they sent me back to another facility that I was

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Speaker 1: previously held at before, a juvenile facility, and I was

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Speaker 1: there for a few for about a little over a

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Speaker 1: couple of weeks, I believe, and to playing cozy touches.

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Speaker 1: Came in one evening and they went up to the

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Speaker 1: main desk to talk to the council of work there,

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Speaker 1: and maybe about two minutes after that, they called my

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Speaker 1: name and I went up to the desk and they

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Speaker 1: asked me my name. I told my name is Frederick Clay.

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Speaker 1: They told me they needed to speak with me, so

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Speaker 1: they took me to like a little room off to

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Speaker 1: the side, and in that room they informed me that

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Speaker 1: David was arrested me for murder. So I really didn't

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Speaker 1: know anything about the murder until it actually they came

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Speaker 1: there and arrest me for it, and my attorney at

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Speaker 1: the time when I went to trial was Thomas Saperro.

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Speaker 1: So it's kind of crazy how I was somewhat informed

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Speaker 1: about the murder.

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Speaker 5: How long were you in jail awaiting trial, because I'm

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Speaker 5: assuming that there was either new years two years waiting. Wow,

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Speaker 5: So that whole thing about it in the constitution.

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Speaker 1: Arrested November seventy nine and I didn't go to trial

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Speaker 1: until nineteen eighty one.

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Speaker 5: Right, that whole thing in the constitution about your right

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Speaker 5: to a speedy trial, we really don't see that very

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Speaker 5: often in this country. It's kind of weird. I don't

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Speaker 5: know how that can be so routinely ignored or violated,

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Speaker 5: but it is, and your case is sadly not atypical

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Speaker 5: in that sense. So you're in jail for two years

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Speaker 5: awaiting trial, and let's go to the trial, because it's

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Speaker 5: always I think for our listeners and even for me

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Speaker 5: an eye opener, to hear how these things go, especially

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Speaker 5: in a case as serious as this one where you

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Speaker 5: were facing life in prison. Tell us what you can

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Speaker 5: remember about the trial? For instance, did you think if

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Speaker 5: you can remember and again, you were in prison, for

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Speaker 5: so long. I mean, it's actually crazy. You went to

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Speaker 5: prison at sixteen, and you were in for thirty eight years,

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Speaker 5: which means you were in prison for almost two and

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Speaker 5: a half times as long as you had been alive, right,

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Speaker 5: and your life experience as a sixteen year old, Let's

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Speaker 5: face it, the first three or four years, we're not

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Speaker 5: even really sentient beings. We're kind of just stumbling around,

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Speaker 5: eating animal crackers or doing whatever we're doing right, and

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Speaker 5: playing with toys and having I'm gonna read us a

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Speaker 5: book and hug us or if we're lucky. So you know,

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Speaker 5: for you, your life experience was so brief before you

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Speaker 5: entered the system, and you had already been in and

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Speaker 5: out of the system. So here you are at trial,

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Speaker 5: and did you, if you can recall, did you feel

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Speaker 5: like when the jury went out that you were going

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Speaker 5: to be convicted or did you still have hope that

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Speaker 5: you did justice would be done.

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Speaker 1: Well, I wasn't really sure there was a fifty to

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Speaker 1: fifty chance that I was going to get convicted. I thought,

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Speaker 1: once I get understand and tell the truth and so

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Speaker 1: sort of present my case and present the evidence that

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Speaker 1: actually prove that I was innocent and have E present

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Speaker 1: my olibi. I thought, I was I might have a

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Speaker 1: chance of being found not guilty, so I was I

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Speaker 1: was hoping that I was going to be found not guilty.

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Speaker 1: But at the back of my mind, according to my attorneys,

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Speaker 1: you know, there was a possible chance that I could

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Speaker 1: get convicted. So I was positive, hopefully that I was

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Speaker 1: going to get found not guilty. But at the same time,

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Speaker 1: I was concerned that I will be found guilty. So

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Speaker 1: I had a fifty to fifty chance.

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Speaker 5: And just backtracking for a second, the witnesses against you,

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Speaker 5: were they white or black?

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Speaker 1: Well, a couple of them was black, I mean white,

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Speaker 1: and one of them was black, But the one was

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Speaker 1: black really didn't really really didn't really hurt me that much.

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Speaker 1: But the two name was that, yes, they was white.

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Speaker 5: And the reason I raised that question is because we

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Speaker 5: know from decades of experience, research, studies, et cetera, that

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Speaker 5: cross racial identifications are just notoriously unreliable, much more so

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Speaker 5: than when people are, you know, trying to identify someone

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Speaker 5: of their own race. I think there's a lot of

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Speaker 5: reasons for that. We don't have to get into all

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Speaker 5: of them, but it's worth knowing because everyone that's listening

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Speaker 5: right now. As I always say on this, always a

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Speaker 5: potential juror, and someday they may be faced with a

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Speaker 5: situation like yours, where there will be I mean, there

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Speaker 5: was no evidence against you, so it was only the

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Speaker 5: witness's word. And if it is a cross racial identification,

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Speaker 5: and it doesn't matter whether that's why white person testifying

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Speaker 5: against a black person, a Hispanic person testifying against a

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Speaker 5: white person, whatever it might be, it's just not reliable.

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Speaker 5: And so your case is an important one to highlight

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Speaker 5: that particular factor because again, the reason why I do

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Speaker 5: this show, Fred is because I want to help to

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Speaker 5: prevent these things from happening to other people in the future,

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Speaker 5: as I'm sure you do.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure if there was a well known fact

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Speaker 1: back in nineteen eighty one the cross racial identification issue,

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Speaker 1: but it's a well known fact now.

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Speaker 5: Right, and I'm glad you brought that up. So the

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Speaker 5: jury comes back and it had to be the worst

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Speaker 5: feeling in the world, and you were sentenced to life

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Speaker 5: in prison, which is again a bizarre.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, a natural life, not just a life, a natural life.

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Speaker 1: Life sort of means like a second degree life, but

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Speaker 1: natural means a first to be life sentence with the

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Speaker 1: chance of no parole, which means like a you got'spen

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Speaker 1: investing in your life in prison, you go and die

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Speaker 1: in prison.

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Speaker 5: And Chris, let's talk about that. I mean, I mean,

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Speaker 5: what kind of a system do we have where we

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Speaker 5: can sent in someone who was really a child an

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Speaker 5: adolescent when this happened, a young teenager to life in prison. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: I mean it is.

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Speaker 6: It's just shocking. And you know, thankfully there were later,

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Speaker 6: much later, the Supreme Court decisions that tried to undo

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Speaker 6: some of that. So it did at a very much

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Speaker 6: later stage, did make Fred eligible for parole. But we're

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Speaker 6: talking again, decades later that there was some understanding of

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Speaker 6: just how wrong that is. That obviously, to charge someone

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Speaker 6: at sixteen, put and put them to adult trial raises

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Speaker 6: a lot of really serious quesnessions, but then to make

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Speaker 6: that same person prone to being convicted and sentenced to

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Speaker 6: life without any chance of parole is all the more shocking.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, just think about it, judge telling you, a sixteen

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Speaker 1: year old kid that you are incapable of changing, so

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Speaker 1: therefore you need to spend the rest of your life

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Speaker 1: in adults prison. You know, and often think about that

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Speaker 1: and they took me out of a bad situation, and

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Speaker 1: they put me in even a worse situation because a

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Speaker 1: lot of people don't survive prison, and I was thinking

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Speaker 1: about a lot of that stuff and how I was

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Speaker 1: going to survive that, whether I was going to end

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Speaker 1: up being murdered, raped, killed, whatever. So just to have

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Speaker 1: someone tell you at the age of sixteen that we

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Speaker 1: think that you are incapable of changing.

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Speaker 5: And when you went to prison, this was you know,

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Speaker 5: this was the reality, right, I mean, this was a

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Speaker 5: very violent place and you were in amongst people who

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Speaker 5: were much older than you, stronger, you know, and here

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Speaker 5: you are, like thrust into this unimaginable nightmare. How did

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Speaker 5: you manage to survive as a young not a particularly

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Speaker 5: big tough guy, but you know, a young, skinny guy

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Speaker 5: in that situation. How did you manage to survive?

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Speaker 1: Well? Personally, I just paid attention to my surroundings. A

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Speaker 1: lot of older gentleman that was doing natural life sentence

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Speaker 1: sort of took a liking to me, and they just

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Speaker 1: sort of just gave me, just told me the way

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Speaker 1: of prison life. Mind your business. If you see something,

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Speaker 1: keep it to yourself, don't talk to corrections officers, try

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Speaker 1: to stay out of trouble, get into programs, try to

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Speaker 1: use that time to benefit me as a person, to

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Speaker 1: change things about myself that I did not like, to

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Speaker 1: sort of use that time to work on me as

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Speaker 1: a human being. And they also let me. They also

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Speaker 1: told me I had to figure out how to do

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Speaker 1: the time and not let the time do me. And

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Speaker 1: it took me quite a while to understand that. So,

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Speaker 1: like what you mean, due to time and not let

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Speaker 1: the time do me. So basically what they was telling me,

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Speaker 1: just what I was telling you, is just try to

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Speaker 1: use this bad experience and focus on the things that

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Speaker 1: I do do not like about myself and the things

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Speaker 1: that I can change to make me feel good about

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Speaker 1: myself and to make other people see me in a

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Speaker 1: way that I want them to see me. So I

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Speaker 1: it was a little bit of that, and it was

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Speaker 1: just a little bit of me just figuring out who

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Speaker 1: I can trust and who I can't trust, and also

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Speaker 1: not to put myself in a certain position to have

437
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 1: some of these bad things happened to me. Just you know,

438
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:09,639
Speaker 1: make sure that whoever I'm dealing with be upfront with

439
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:15,600
Speaker 1: them about my situation and just be aware of their motives, you.

440
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 5: Know, and then there was a sort of a hero emerged,

441
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:23,320
Speaker 5: if you could call it that, from this situation. A

442
00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:26,640
Speaker 5: guy named Roosevelt Pickett really helped to pull you out

443
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,159
Speaker 5: of this right and introduce you to a very unlikely

444
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 5: character who became almost like, I don't use too strong

445
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 5: of a word, but almost like your savior, right, And

446
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:38,359
Speaker 5: can you talk about that?

447
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 1: Oh much?

448
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:41,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, that whole situation is so interesting to me, So

449
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:43,640
Speaker 5: can you talk about that a little bit?

450
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,480
Speaker 1: Well. Roosevelt Pickett was as an old gentleman, I think

451
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,120
Speaker 1: he was like in the sixties, and I knew him

452
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:52,480
Speaker 1: at that time. I knew of for about twelve years

453
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 1: thirteen years, and he was also doing a life bit

454
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,200
Speaker 1: and he had he was he was walking on the

455
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,400
Speaker 1: king he had an accident. He used to do cariding

456
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:04,639
Speaker 1: works and stuff like that, so he fell off the

457
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 1: roof and he used to walk around with a game. So. Uh. Anyway,

458
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:11,440
Speaker 1: I used to work and if I was in Bay

459
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 1: State Prison at this time, and I was working downstairs

460
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 1: on the first floor in the day room, and he

461
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:19,400
Speaker 1: lived on the first floor, and he was down there

462
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:23,119
Speaker 1: cooking in the dayroom one afternoon and I was I

463
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 1: was down there doing my job and everything and he was.

464
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,480
Speaker 1: So we started talking about visits and stuff like that,

465
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,879
Speaker 1: and he asked me, did I have anybody that you know,

466
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:36,479
Speaker 1: family members and friends that visit me? And I told him, uh,

467
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 1: not really. I had my great aunt. She visited me

468
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 1: like every two years, three years a year, whenever she

469
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:46,680
Speaker 1: could find time to do it. So then he asked

470
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 1: me if I was if I wanted somebody to visit me,

471
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 1: like from a church and stuff like that, and I said, sure,

472
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:54,680
Speaker 1: why not. I grew up in the opportunity to meet

473
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,719
Speaker 1: somebody from church and just have a friend to come

474
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:02,920
Speaker 1: visit me. So he put me in touch with prison ministry.

475
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 1: I think it's called Candlelight Ministries. And I had to

476
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:08,919
Speaker 1: fill out some forms and stuff like that, and I

477
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 1: filled out the forms and he sent it in and

478
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 1: I'm not quite sure how long after that then I

479
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:20,879
Speaker 1: met Reverend Fred Small. He came to visit me and

480
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 1: I was back in I think that was like in

481
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 1: ninety seven, nineteen ninety seven, ninety eight, and once he

482
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 1: came to Bay State to visit me. So our friendship

483
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 1: developed and got stronger and stronger, and the more he

484
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 1: visited me, the more I started talking about my case

485
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:42,120
Speaker 1: and me as a person and things I like and dislike,

486
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:47,880
Speaker 1: and I just take this interest. And so he helped

487
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 1: me somewhat get out of prison.

488
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 5: And then he spoke to his parishioners and asked if

489
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 5: anybody would like to get involved in this, you know,

490
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 5: helping out I guess, you know, volunteering to make friends

491
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,440
Speaker 5: with someone on the inside. And it's interesting because people

492
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 5: ask me that question a lot, and I'm always trying

493
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:12,680
Speaker 5: to connect people as best I can. And in fact,

494
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:17,679
Speaker 5: a software engineer named Doran Dibble, which is sort of

495
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 5: an unusual name, right, it's sort of an interesting If

496
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 5: I was writing a movie about your story, I would

497
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:26,159
Speaker 5: name the guy Doran Dibble. So Dorian Dibble shows up

498
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:28,639
Speaker 5: some sort of a sort of a very square looking

499
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,679
Speaker 5: white guy, right, sort that comes in out of nowhere.

500
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 5: What was your reaction when you met this guy?

501
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 1: Well, he was funny, he was very smart, he was kind,

502
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 1: he was very kind, he was generous, he was sincere,

503
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 1: he was empathetic, he told he told some jokes. I

504
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,160
Speaker 1: thought he was a very nice guy, and I thought,

505
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 1: this is the kind of person that I need in

506
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 1: my life to sort of help me, take me out

507
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: of my comfort zone, so to speak, because I wasn't

508
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:03,600
Speaker 1: really that social with in prison, so he sort of

509
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 1: sort of brought me out of my shell a little bit.

510
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,439
Speaker 1: So I thought he was a very nice person something

511
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 1: that is, someone that I needed to have in my

512
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:16,639
Speaker 1: life to help me grow socially anyway, you know, in

513
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 1: many other ways after that, to be exact.

514
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 5: And how important was that relationship to you?

515
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:26,639
Speaker 1: It was very important. I mean, how many people do

516
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:31,159
Speaker 1: you know will bring their their young, small children in

517
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 1: to see a person in prison that's non family. So

518
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 1: he became uh, I know I used this phrase before.

519
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 1: He was a stranger in the beginning, but he became

520
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 1: family to me, and and he's still family right now.

521
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 1: So his friendship and him being part of my life

522
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 1: was very very important then and it's very important now.

523
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 1: He's still in my life right now.

524
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 5: And Chris, in the article that you wrote about the case,

525
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 5: I was really moved by this quote from mister Dibble

526
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 5: where he said, and I'm quoting, one of the amazing

527
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 5: things for me is given his circumstances we're talking life

528
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 5: without parole, his resilience, determination, and his decency through all

529
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 5: that It's a model to me. He didn't hate the establishment.

530
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 5: We're white, he didn't care. I'm getting the chills just

531
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 5: reading that. And you actually did the interview with him.

532
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 5: I mean, can you share some insight into this guy,

533
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 5: because he really does emerge as a hero in this story.

534
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 6: Yeah, no, it is and was an incredible part of

535
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 6: the whole story. And just sitting here honestly listening to

536
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 6: Fred again, I really enjoyed every minute hanging out with

537
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 6: Fred over the course of the last year. And I'm

538
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 6: guessing that listeners can kind of get a feel as

539
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 6: to how Fred talks and that people are kind of

540
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 6: drawn to the way he talks and understands things about

541
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 6: this really awful experience he had he had to go through.

542
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 6: And so Dorian Dibble and his wife Jackie, and his

543
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 6: two kids. I met one of his kids who's now,

544
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 6: you know, in his twenties, and I hung out with

545
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 6: them over dinner that they invited Fred over, and I

546
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 6: asked to come along back in July. And yeah, Dorian

547
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 6: and his wife Jackie just are really big hearted people

548
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 6: and just showed up there in prison, you know, frequently

549
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 6: during the year, like every few months, they would drive

550
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 6: down and and go. It's not easy to get into

551
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 6: a prison. You gotta sit there and wait and get

552
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 6: frisked down and go through metal detectors and wear exactly

553
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 6: the right clothing or they turn you away. And you

554
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 6: know they again they brought their little kids in to

555
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 6: kind of hang out. Friends sit there and play cards,

556
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 6: and just the whole dynamic and relationship that was related

557
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 6: to me really kind of me away.

558
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 5: It's almost like the family that Fred couldn't have, and

559
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 5: now all of a sudden he has sort of an

560
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 5: adoptive family inside. And you know, it was a long

561
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 5: drive and they would come every couple of months. And

562
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 5: there's one more quote, and I want to get back

563
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 5: to the story because again this really touched me and

564
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 5: I got the chills reading the last one. I'm going

565
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 5: to get him again because mister Dibble said, quote, we'd

566
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 5: all pile back in the car when our visit was

567
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 5: over and it was just dead silence in the car.

568
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 5: Because that's where it really hit everybody. Oh this is

569
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 5: from Jackie Dibble. Say we start again, and missus Dibble,

570
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 5: Jackie Dibble said, quote, we'd all pile back in the

571
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 5: car when our visit was over, and it was just

572
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 5: dead silence in the car because that's where it really

573
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 5: hit everybody. We'd walk out of there under the barbed wire.

574
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 5: We get to go home and he doesn't, and it

575
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 5: was just nobody would say anything on the way home

576
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 5: and end quote. And I've had that feeling so many

577
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 5: times now visiting people in Priton and who I know

578
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 5: are innocent, and then when I leave and that door

579
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 5: slams behind and you can't take them with you. It's

580
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 5: a horrible feelings. It's a sick feeling actually, And Chris

581
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 5: is nodding his head because he knows, and you know,

582
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 5: it does drive me and I think all of us

583
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 5: every day to try to do more to help people

584
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 5: like yourself, Fred, because it's if you've once you've experienced that.

585
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 5: And I brought four people with me up to Sing

586
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 5: Sing this weekend where we met many of the men

587
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 5: who are stuck there, some of whom are innocent, some

588
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 5: are not. But you know, I would say that ninety

589
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 5: percent of the people that we met there don't belong there.

590
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 5: You know, they've served their time, they have made a mistake.

591
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 5: I'm of the Brian Stevenson school. He's one of my

592
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 5: heroes and you know, he said, I believe everyone is

593
00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 5: better than the worst thing they've ever done. You know,

594
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 5: I think in our system we overincarcerate to such an

595
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 5: extreme degree, we over punish. The institutions that we have

596
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 5: that are called correctional institutions are not by and large,

597
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 5: and all of it needs to change. And that's why

598
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 5: it's so important that you're here, Fred to tell your story.

599
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 5: So I really appreciate that, and you too, Chris. So

600
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 5: Fred tell us how this situation changed. Because you were

601
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,000
Speaker 5: sentenced to life in prison, you had no hope to

602
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 5: get out. You found this inner strength, this grace, this

603
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 5: courage that always mystifies me and amazes me and makes me,

604
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 5: you know, draws me two people like yourself because I

605
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 5: get so much out of just talking to you and

606
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 5: spending time. And so how did you ultimately? I mean,

607
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 5: we know how you survive because you explain that, But

608
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 5: how did you get out? Because you're here now and

609
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 5: that's a fantastic thing, and I know, and I want

610
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 5: to talk about the struggle of being out as well.

611
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 5: Becau's what I call the second punishment. But how did that?

612
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 5: Let's get to the happy stuff. How'd you get out?

613
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 1: Well, I got out on a new trial motion. Lisa

614
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 1: Kavanaugh from the CPCs Innocent Program, she's my attorney. She

615
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 1: was my attorney on our pill We drafted and critique

616
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 1: and finally finalized a new trial motion, and we followed that.

617
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,840
Speaker 1: I think when I was in Concuent Farm, probably late

618
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. I believe it took a while, but between

619
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 1: by witness identification, the hypnosis, cross racial identification, somewhat mug

620
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 1: shot exposure, some police reports that the detectives somewhat I

621
00:34:55,080 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 1: mean obviously overlooked. It was a combination of all that

622
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 1: stuff together that helped me get out of prison. Also

623
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:11,240
Speaker 1: in twenty thirteen, I would say late December twenty thirteen,

624
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 1: the Juveeile Life of law change which gave juveniles and

625
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 1: opportunities juveniles under the age of eighteen an opportunity to

626
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:24,839
Speaker 1: see the parole board. So once that law changed, that

627
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 1: law allowed me to see the parole board. So at

628
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 1: that particular time, I was not I was still thinking

629
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 1: about and preparing for my Route thirty emotion, but I

630
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 1: was also preparing for my parole hearing. So I ended

631
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 1: up going to parole May twenty first, twenty fifteen, I

632
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:53,359
Speaker 1: should say, and the results of that, I ended up

633
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 1: getting presented my case a parole board, stating that I

634
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:01,840
Speaker 1: was innocent, but at the same time taking responsibility for

635
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: the crimes that I did do. For the juvenile issue,

636
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 1: the cases that I had previous of me getting arrested

637
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 1: for this murder case, I took responsibility for all that stuff,

638
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 1: but I did not take responsibility for the current case

639
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 1: that I was doing time for with much the murder.

640
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 1: And I let them know that if I did do it,

641
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 1: I would have no problem taking responsibility to meet and guilt.

642
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 1: But that's not the case. So I did not admit

643
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,359
Speaker 1: to something I did not do. But at the same

644
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 1: time I was letting them know that prison so you

645
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 1: I mean by be being in prison, I was not

646
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,760
Speaker 1: the same person I was when I first went to president.

647
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 1: I was a different person sitting in front of them.

648
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 1: So I just explained to them how different I was

649
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 1: through programs and education and stuff like that. So basically

650
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 1: I got up I was going I was set to

651
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,799
Speaker 1: get out on parole anyway. I was scheduled to get

652
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 1: out on parole August twelve, but August twelfth was on

653
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 1: a Saturday, so they pushed it to August fourteenth, was

654
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:10,759
Speaker 1: on Monday. And tell you the truth, I'm not quite

655
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:14,319
Speaker 1: sure how this happened, but I ended up getting is

656
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,880
Speaker 1: generated a week before I was scheduled to get released

657
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 1: our parole.

658
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,319
Speaker 5: That is very unusual, and there's so many unusual things

659
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 5: about your case. I mean, let's go back to the

660
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 5: hypnosis thing, because even even though back then we you know,

661
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 5: we didn't, we didn't know a lot of the things

662
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 5: that we know now. But even back then, Walter Cronkite

663
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,160
Speaker 5: was on TV talking about how this hypnosis thing was

664
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 5: a disaster and it didn't make any sense. Walter Cronkite

665
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 5: were the most respected people in America at that time,

666
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 5: one of the most respected journalists of all time. So

667
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 5: what was it like, Fred walking out into the fresh

668
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:56,239
Speaker 5: air after spending a longer time than most of the

669
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 5: people that are listening to the show have even been alive, right,

670
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 5: I mean, we have two people in the studio here

671
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 5: who haven't been alive that long, thirty eight years.

672
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,880
Speaker 1: Well, the first thing I did was hug my attorneys,

673
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 1: thanked them very much, hugged Shacking and Dorn Dibbles and

674
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 1: their family, and Victor Vizario, he was there. I hugged him,

675
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,840
Speaker 1: and once I did that, I started talking to the media.

676
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 1: I see. That was the first thing I did start

677
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 1: talking to the media after I hugged my friends and stuff.

678
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 1: But to answer your question of what it was like,

679
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:38,359
Speaker 1: it was felt very strange to be walking without outside

680
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 1: of prison, without no shackles on my feet. That felt

681
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:46,360
Speaker 1: very strange. Every time I left prison, no matter to

682
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 1: go to the hospital or whatever, to the court, whatever,

683
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:54,839
Speaker 1: they always had shackles on your feet. And once they

684
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:59,439
Speaker 1: actually said that you're free to go, and they put

685
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 1: me in the in the in the like the whole

686
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 1: itself for a little while, for like an hour to

687
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:09,239
Speaker 1: finalize everything. So once everything was finalized and they opened it,

688
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 1: uh the cell door, and I walked downstairs, and I

689
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 1: actually walked downstairs to be outside, it felt very strange

690
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 1: to be, like I said, to be walking without thrown

691
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 1: shackles on my feet. I thought it was a dream.

692
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,239
Speaker 1: But then again it wasn't a dream, but it was

693
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:31,640
Speaker 1: kind of overwhelming. It was I was happy, I was

694
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:39,280
Speaker 1: somewhat cautious, and I was like in shocked to some degree.

695
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 1: So it was it was a combination of all those things.

696
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean it's a it's a joyous uh, you know,

697
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:57,400
Speaker 5: just thinking about it and envisioning it is such a

698
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 5: joyous thing. But I think that people get the idea

699
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:09,439
Speaker 5: that you know, everyone sees on the news the photographs

700
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 5: or the video of someone like yourself coming out and

701
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:15,840
Speaker 5: there's all this joy and you have if you're fortunate

702
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 5: enough like you were, to have some friends and family

703
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:22,800
Speaker 5: around and there's news media and there's cameras and maybe

704
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:27,920
Speaker 5: the sun is shining. But there's another side to that too, right,

705
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 5: I mean, you come out and you get nothing like

706
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:34,719
Speaker 5: most of the people. And this is crazy because for

707
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:38,840
Speaker 5: twenty five years I've been doing this work and anyone

708
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:40,840
Speaker 5: I talk to that's not aware. You know, when I

709
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:42,799
Speaker 5: meet somebody new and I'm talking about decision because I

710
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 5: talk about it everywhere, the first thing they want to

711
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:48,319
Speaker 5: know is does the exonery you get paid? Like, just

712
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 5: tell me they get money? And I have to tell

713
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,640
Speaker 5: them that in most cases know and even in the

714
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 5: cases when they do, it takes an unconscionably long time,

715
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 5: years and years. This is something that the Interests Project

716
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 5: has been deeply involved with. Recently, we just passed the

717
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:07,359
Speaker 5: compensation statute in Kansas. So it's a thirty first state

718
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 5: to actually have compensation statues. There's still nineteen states that

719
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:15,880
Speaker 5: have none, no compensation statues. And for you, Fred, coming

720
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:19,319
Speaker 5: out of prison after thirty eight years, having gone in

721
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 5: as a sixteen year old kid, you know, trying to

722
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:26,240
Speaker 5: rebuild your life. I want to focus for a minute

723
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:28,960
Speaker 5: on those challenges, which I don't think get the type

724
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:31,279
Speaker 5: of attention that they deserve. And I think we as

725
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 5: a society owe you and every man and woman that

726
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,239
Speaker 5: has been through this type of ordeal, we owe you

727
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 5: more than a fresh start. I mean, we owe you

728
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 5: a debt, and I think that as soon as you

729
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 5: get out that should start to be getting repaid. But

730
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,400
Speaker 5: that's not the way it works, and your case is

731
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:53,919
Speaker 5: a very strong example of that. So can you talk

732
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 5: about the challenges? I mean, you haven't gotten any money

733
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 5: yet right, Well.

734
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 1: My working on that right now, so it's still to

735
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 1: be remained to be still being rocked on.

736
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 5: And how how long have you been out?

737
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:13,960
Speaker 1: Not over year now, so it's been August eighth, so

738
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 1: it's been.

739
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 6: Not over year, fifteen to sixteen months?

740
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:19,880
Speaker 1: Fifteen months? Much like that?

741
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,279
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, I can jump in here a little bit.

742
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 6: I mean, this was this was this was the focus

743
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:27,319
Speaker 6: of my reporting for the last year, was to kind

744
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 6: of answer that question, what's life like when you get

745
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:35,240
Speaker 6: out of prison? His his Fred's murder conviction was vacated,

746
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:39,959
Speaker 6: and you know, my editors suggested, why do we see

747
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 6: what life's like in the first thirty days? And that

748
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:45,479
Speaker 6: turned into what are we? Uh, why don't I check

749
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:47,759
Speaker 6: in with Fred from time to time over the course

750
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 6: of a year, and and Fred can kind of fill

751
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 6: in a lot of this stuff, but a lot of

752
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 6: it was, you know, what what do you do to survive?

753
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 6: You need you need housing, you need shelter, and you

754
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:02,360
Speaker 6: need some income to provide that shelter and food. Just

755
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 6: the base bear basics of survival. And that was what

756
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:08,600
Speaker 6: you know, Fred and I would kind of meet up

757
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:11,799
Speaker 6: and he would very graciously let me tag along with

758
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 6: him as he talked to people about filling out job

759
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 6: applications and trying to work on a resume, and watched

760
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 6: him move from one apartment to another apartment, and I think,

761
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 6: you know, maybe Fred, you talk a little bit about

762
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 6: what those experiences.

763
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:34,319
Speaker 1: Not really apartment, it's a room, but yeah, it's been

764
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 1: kind of challenging when you've been in prison. What I

765
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 1: long Obviously, technology has changed, and technology definitely has changed

766
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:44,800
Speaker 1: to the point where it's all new to me. I

767
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 1: often make this phrase, It's like I've been reborn again

768
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 1: and I have to learn everything all over again, including technology. So,

769
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:55,319
Speaker 1: and even how do you fill out job applications now?

770
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 1: It's different compared to when I was back in the

771
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 1: seventies and stuff. A lot of stuff you got to

772
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:04,360
Speaker 1: fill out online now, as far as pretty much everything,

773
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 1: housing application, job applications, everything. So the challenge of learning

774
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:15,040
Speaker 1: the technology is still the challenge. I'm still I know

775
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 1: a little bit, but there's a whole lot more that

776
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:21,640
Speaker 1: I need to learn. And that's been kind of frustrating

777
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 1: and exciting at the same time and aggravating. But at

778
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:30,800
Speaker 1: the same time, I've been reminding myself that hopefully, eventually

779
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 1: I get there. I just need to be patient with myself.

780
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 1: But trying to survive out here when you've been in prison,

781
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:45,879
Speaker 1: that law, it's kind of difficult. Even maintaining a job.

782
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 1: It's been kind of challenging. I'm still dealing with that.

783
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 5: Oh, what what part of Massachusetts are you living in now? Fred?

784
00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:58,880
Speaker 1: I'm living in Lowell, Massachusetts.

785
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:00,440
Speaker 5: So that's right by Boston, right.

786
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 1: It's not it's it's it's by Boston, but I wouldn't

787
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:09,160
Speaker 1: call it right by. It's some distance, yes, but it

788
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 1: is by.

789
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 6: Boston, about an hour north of Boston.

790
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 5: Okay. Well wow.

791
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 1: And when you don't drive, that's another thing. I really

792
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:22,239
Speaker 1: I haven't really started driving yet. And when you when

793
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:26,319
Speaker 1: you don't know how to drive, you're very limited. So

794
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:29,359
Speaker 1: I'm sort of restricted to a certain area and low

795
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:33,000
Speaker 1: and that's been kind of challenging. The puppet transportation here

796
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:35,640
Speaker 1: is not that great. It shuts down at seven o'clock

797
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 1: in the evening, and that's been an issue that I

798
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:44,239
Speaker 1: still struggle with today. So I need to learn how

799
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:49,000
Speaker 1: to drive in order to get more access to resources, jobs, housing,

800
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:52,920
Speaker 1: just to get around, I need to learn how to drive.

801
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:56,839
Speaker 1: And people been offering their help, and I've even been

802
00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 1: thinking about going through driving school. But it's just the

803
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:04,320
Speaker 1: thought of it is fine. It's just putting an action is,

804
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:06,920
Speaker 1: you know, trying to figure out when the right time is.

805
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:09,359
Speaker 1: Maybe there is no right time. I just need to

806
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:12,160
Speaker 1: just jump into it and do it. But all that's

807
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 1: been kind of challenging to me. To figure out what's important,

808
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 1: what's not important, trying to prioritize things. That's been a

809
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:20,920
Speaker 1: big issue.

810
00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:23,960
Speaker 5: And I can tell just from the way you know

811
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 5: you are and the way that you've dealt with this

812
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:31,720
Speaker 5: situation that I think anybody I know accept the exounre

813
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:34,360
Speaker 5: reason that I know actually would have crumbled under the

814
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 5: weight of this unreal ordeal. So I know you're going

815
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:44,239
Speaker 5: to be successful, but I think all of us just

816
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 5: need a little boost every once in a while. So

817
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 5: I'm happy to say that that's something I'm going to

818
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:54,680
Speaker 5: be able to to provide. So I do want to

819
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:58,359
Speaker 5: I want to ask you also, what if you can

820
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:02,439
Speaker 5: think of it, what its been your happiest moment since

821
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 5: you got out. It's interesting I'm seeing I'm looking at

822
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:08,880
Speaker 5: a picture right now of you with the with the dibbles,

823
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:12,960
Speaker 5: with Dorin and Jackie. It's really sort of a funny picture.

824
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:14,960
Speaker 5: I mean, you have this giant smile on your face

825
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:20,280
Speaker 5: and the glasses on and they, you know, they're obviously

826
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 5: smiling too, but I mean they're really white, these people are.

827
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 5: You know, It's really just an interesting, you know, photograph

828
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:36,719
Speaker 5: because it's just such an unusual, uh you know, combination

829
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:41,120
Speaker 5: of different backgrounds. But there's a lot of humanity in that, right,

830
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:43,440
Speaker 5: and there's a lot of beauty it. There's a lot

831
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:46,920
Speaker 5: of beauty in it. So, I mean, aside from the

832
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:49,359
Speaker 5: moment when you first stepped out, which must have been

833
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:52,919
Speaker 5: as much of a shock as anything else, what's been

834
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 5: your happiest memory since in the fifteen sixteen months since

835
00:47:57,120 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 5: you got out.

836
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:02,400
Speaker 1: Well, I had a few vision my mother's grave that

837
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:10,440
Speaker 1: was very happy. But I would say right now, the skydiving.

838
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:13,279
Speaker 5: Who you went skydiving?

839
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 1: I went skydiving twice?

840
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:16,280
Speaker 5: Wow?

841
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:20,799
Speaker 1: And I would say that. I said that because some

842
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 1: guys that I was in prison with that end up

843
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:27,040
Speaker 1: passing away. In prison often, you know, we often talked

844
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:32,920
Speaker 1: about skydiving, and we watched some programs on Double GBH

845
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 1: about skydiving and stuff like that, and we said to

846
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:37,719
Speaker 1: ourselves that they looked a lot of fun, you know,

847
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:40,239
Speaker 1: looked like fun, and I looked like the people was

848
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:43,919
Speaker 1: enjoying themselves. So when I went skydiving, I was sort

849
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:46,879
Speaker 1: of like dedicating that moment to them because they sort

850
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 1: of helped me change who I was as a person.

851
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:52,640
Speaker 1: They sort of helped me get back into my case

852
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 1: and make me stay focused on that. So when I

853
00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:01,840
Speaker 1: skydived the first time, it was just to honor them

854
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 1: and for me to thank them and to show respect

855
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:09,080
Speaker 1: for them for what they did for me, because I

856
00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:11,840
Speaker 1: at that time and I still do now, I consider

857
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 1: myself very lucky. So that was a very special moment

858
00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 1: the first time and the second time too because the

859
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 1: second time when I went skydiving, I went with a

860
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:27,799
Speaker 1: lot of its honorary people, people that was in my

861
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:32,440
Speaker 1: somewhat in my situation. We all had our individual cases

862
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 1: that end up that we end up in prison for,

863
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 1: but we all was innocent, and so it was kind

864
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:42,360
Speaker 1: of special to be with them that way. I felt,

865
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 1: you know, that I was surrounded by people who actually

866
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:48,160
Speaker 1: knew what I was going through, and they didn't have

867
00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 1: no problem sharing what they was going through, what they

868
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:55,200
Speaker 1: went through in prison, and what they're dealing with now

869
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 1: out here that you be shortage to share our experience

870
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:01,120
Speaker 1: and share their knowledge and help you each other. So

871
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:06,480
Speaker 1: that was kind of special. And also when I jump

872
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:10,120
Speaker 1: out the plane the second time, it's sort of reminded

873
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 1: me of life, like when you jump out the plane,

874
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 1: there is no turning back. You came to say, well,

875
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 1: I changed my mind. I want to go back. Once

876
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:23,040
Speaker 1: you jump out the plane, you and the elements, and

877
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:26,960
Speaker 1: so you got to face whatever there whatever fear you have,

878
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:29,840
Speaker 1: whatever there is, you got to face that. And it

879
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:33,080
Speaker 1: sort of reminds me about my life right now. Whatever

880
00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:35,960
Speaker 1: it is in life that I'm uncomfortable with, I have

881
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:38,840
Speaker 1: fear about, I have to try to face it and

882
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 1: try to do the best I can. So to answer

883
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 1: your question, the skydiving was the most important thing to me.

884
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:52,200
Speaker 5: Well, that's an incredible story and very moving and very

885
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:54,960
Speaker 5: just amazing to think about. But I will say this,

886
00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 5: if you can jump out of a plane, you can

887
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 5: definitely drive a car. And I'm gonna make you a

888
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:05,959
Speaker 5: deal right here in front of however many one hundred

889
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:08,879
Speaker 5: thousand people listening to this show. If you'll take your

890
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:13,160
Speaker 5: driver's course, wrongful conviction will get you a car. So

891
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:17,399
Speaker 5: that'll be our deal. You got to go make sure

892
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:19,160
Speaker 5: you can drive it. But if you can do it,

893
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:21,839
Speaker 5: we'll get you a car, all right. And then then

894
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:23,160
Speaker 5: then me and Chris are coming and we're going to

895
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:26,200
Speaker 5: take a ride with you. So because we're you jump

896
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:28,880
Speaker 5: out of a plan, I'll get on the car with you.

897
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:30,280
Speaker 5: Behind a wheel, no problem.

898
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:32,760
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, okay.

899
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:34,279
Speaker 5: All right, we got a deal. We got a deal.

900
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:36,480
Speaker 5: We have one hundred thousand witnesses, so there you go.

901
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:40,719
Speaker 5: Well you know it's it's it's amazing, Fred, you know that.

902
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:43,560
Speaker 5: And I am going to put you.

903
00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:48,040
Speaker 1: To say something. It only take one witnesses to get

904
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:50,280
Speaker 1: someone convicted, never mind one hundred thousand.

905
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 5: Right, Well, there you go. So we have a tradition

906
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:58,160
Speaker 5: here on wrongful conviction, which is my favorite part of

907
00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 5: the show. I think it's everybody's favorite part of the show,

908
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:03,680
Speaker 5: which is that at the end of the show, which

909
00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 5: is now, I always, of course thank both of you,

910
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:14,000
Speaker 5: Chris and Fred for being here and sharing your your

911
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:19,920
Speaker 5: story and your wisdom Chris and experience. So I'm thanking

912
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 5: you now. And then also at the end of the show,

913
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:27,760
Speaker 5: the featured part is where I get to stop talking

914
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:32,520
Speaker 5: and do all the listening. And how this works is

915
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:35,479
Speaker 5: I just turned the microphone over to you for any

916
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:39,240
Speaker 5: closing thoughts that you have, if you have any, no pressure,

917
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:45,360
Speaker 5: but the microphone is yours, so let's start with you. Chris,

918
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:48,240
Speaker 5: anything any last words.

919
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:52,520
Speaker 6: Well as always, like it's really fascinating for me to

920
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:56,680
Speaker 6: listen to Fred and was a real privilege as a

921
00:52:56,719 --> 00:52:59,839
Speaker 6: reporter to get to, you know, spend time with him,

922
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:02,959
Speaker 6: have work in a place, and have editors that saw

923
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:08,400
Speaker 6: how important that was to do it. And it's again,

924
00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:14,799
Speaker 6: I think Fred just went through something really awful and

925
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:18,880
Speaker 6: has these amazing insights about what his experience was. And

926
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:22,200
Speaker 6: it's not surprising that he drew the kind of support

927
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:25,200
Speaker 6: to him that he did because again he's able to

928
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:28,000
Speaker 6: kind of reflect and share. He has a great sense

929
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:32,600
Speaker 6: of humor, and it's it's kind of brings me back

930
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:34,640
Speaker 6: to what it was like talking with him over these

931
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:37,960
Speaker 6: last many months. So happy to be here again.

932
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:42,320
Speaker 5: Chris Barrell, thank you again for being here on Wrongful Conviction.

933
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:46,120
Speaker 5: And now over to you Fred for your last words

934
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:46,919
Speaker 5: and thoughts.

935
00:53:47,160 --> 00:53:51,360
Speaker 1: I want to thank you for the opportunity to speak

936
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:55,760
Speaker 1: on the podcast, and I want to thank Chris Barell

937
00:53:55,920 --> 00:53:59,560
Speaker 1: for bugging me to do this. I'm just choking, but

938
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:03,680
Speaker 1: who come to me in the beginning when I first

939
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 1: got out and presented the opportunity for him to follow

940
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:12,760
Speaker 1: me and talk about the person's life after the cameras

941
00:54:12,760 --> 00:54:16,640
Speaker 1: go away. I'm sort of glad that he did that

942
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:20,560
Speaker 1: because it made me stay true to who I was,

943
00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:24,319
Speaker 1: and it made me more focused about my situation and

944
00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:26,680
Speaker 1: at the same time, it brought me out of my shell,

945
00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:30,719
Speaker 1: so to speak, too. And I want to say that

946
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:36,680
Speaker 1: people sometimes ask me about why am I not bitter

947
00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:43,040
Speaker 1: about my situation. Don't get me wrong, I'm definitely upset

948
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:45,640
Speaker 1: about what happened to me. But at the same time,

949
00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:49,279
Speaker 1: it's sort of made me aware of who I was

950
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:51,680
Speaker 1: at that time as a person, and it made me

951
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:54,399
Speaker 1: change who I was to who I am in right

952
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:58,200
Speaker 1: now today. And I must say I liked the person

953
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:02,840
Speaker 1: I become today. I didn't like myself back then, and

954
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:07,200
Speaker 1: it made me think about those things. So in the

955
00:55:07,239 --> 00:55:11,279
Speaker 1: process of sharing my story with Chris, it sort of

956
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:14,400
Speaker 1: made me realize that too. So I thank him for

957
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:19,360
Speaker 1: the opportunity to make me aware of that. And I

958
00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:24,440
Speaker 1: won't thank my attorneys Lisa Kavanaugh and Jeffrey Harris, and

959
00:55:24,719 --> 00:55:28,319
Speaker 1: my attorney who passed away, Emanuel Howard. I want to

960
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 1: thank all three them for helping me get to where

961
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:35,760
Speaker 1: I'm at today, and my supporters too, the Debbil's Fred Smiles.

962
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:41,239
Speaker 1: So many people, so many people help me. I won't

963
00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:42,160
Speaker 1: thank everybody for that.

964
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:47,120
Speaker 5: Wow. Yeah, it just took me a minute to collect myself,

965
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:52,600
Speaker 5: but well, once again you've been listening to Wrongful Conviction

966
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:59,000
Speaker 5: today's episode featuring investigative journalist Chris Barrell and Fred Play,

967
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:02,560
Speaker 5: exonerated after thirty eight years in prison for a murder

968
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:05,600
Speaker 5: he didn't commit. Gentlemen, thank you again for being on

969
00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:11,360
Speaker 5: the show. And I look forward to to taking a

970
00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:16,160
Speaker 5: ride through Lowell with the with the music blast and loud,

971
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 5: I hope with you two guys, and maybe we'll go

972
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:22,920
Speaker 5: and pick up the dibbles along the way. So and

973
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:26,760
Speaker 5: that's a and that's a that's a bet. So thanks

974
00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:30,360
Speaker 5: again and we'll keep the conversation moving.

975
00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:33,279
Speaker 1: Thank you, Okay, I appreciate it very much.

976
00:56:33,719 --> 00:56:48,000
Speaker 5: Thanks Fred, don't forget to give us a fantastic review.

977
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:51,719
Speaker 5: Wherever you get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm

978
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:54,399
Speaker 5: a proud donor to the NSIS project, and I really

979
00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:57,520
Speaker 5: hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause

980
00:56:57,719 --> 00:57:01,800
Speaker 5: and helping to prevent future wrongful convey Go to andisonsproject

981
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:04,560
Speaker 5: dot org to learn how to donate and get involved.

982
00:57:04,920 --> 00:57:07,440
Speaker 5: I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and

983
00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:10,239
Speaker 5: Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is by three

984
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:13,680
Speaker 5: Time Oscar nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow

985
00:57:13,719 --> 00:57:17,200
Speaker 5: us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at

986
00:57:17,320 --> 00:57:21,040
Speaker 5: brown Ful Conviction podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is

987
00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:24,560
Speaker 5: a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with

988
00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:26,600
Speaker 5: Signal Company Number one