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Speaker 1: Okay, So what you're hearing here is the sound of

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Speaker 1: a turbine spinning. This is the turbine hall of the

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Speaker 1: Hellotidy geo thermal plant in Iceland. If you've been to

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Speaker 1: the Tate Modern in London, it looks really kind of

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Speaker 1: the same. It's a big, big hall that houses the

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Speaker 1: big spinning turbines. So we're approaching some geothermal cooling towers.

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Speaker 1: The fluid goes through here and water goes through the

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Speaker 1: heat exchangers and cools down the geothermal fluid. So you

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Speaker 1: can go back into the it's the ground, and here

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Speaker 1: is the sound of steam coming out of a recently

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Speaker 1: drilled well. Here at the foot of a mountain in Iceland,

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Speaker 1: on the site of the Hello Tidy plant. We've turned

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Speaker 1: it down for you, but it's roaring like a jet engine.

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Speaker 1: This single well will produce more than ten megawatts, are

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Speaker 1: enough to power more than a thousand homes. Geothermal is

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Speaker 1: a small industry, with just about fourteen get a wat's online,

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Speaker 1: but where it matters, it matters a lot. And the

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Speaker 1: thing you notice about geothermal at the plant level is

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Speaker 1: that it's really powerful stuff. From the wells to the

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Speaker 1: turbine hall to the cooling. Would you just heard so

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Speaker 1: conventional geothermal where developers drill down to tap an existing

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Speaker 1: hot water or steam reservoir to run a turbine. And

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Speaker 1: I know I'm simplifying, here is a key energy source

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Speaker 1: for several tectonically active locations. Basically anywhere there's a volcano.

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Speaker 1: I think volcanic islands where the alternative power sources shipped

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Speaker 1: in diesel, along the East African Rift, the Pacific Rim

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Speaker 1: or even Italy. In those places it can be not

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Speaker 1: just the cleanest form of power but also the cheapest.

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Speaker 1: But geothermal development is hard going out drilling wells with

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Speaker 1: oil and gas risk, but with utility returns, that risk

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Speaker 1: profile is stunted the growth of geothermal. But there are

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Speaker 1: several out there today working hard on technologies to d

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Speaker 1: risk geothermal development, squeeze additional value out of the hot

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Speaker 1: water coming out of the wells, and in some cases

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Speaker 1: throwing out the concept of convention no geo thermal entirely

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Speaker 1: and starting fresh. We're gonna do the show in two parts. Today.

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Speaker 1: In part one, we're going to talk about these new

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Speaker 1: technologies and the different ways of thinking about what geother

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Speaker 1: all means and what it can do. In Part two,

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Speaker 1: we'll talk about some market dynamics and policy changes that

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Speaker 1: have created some very real and immediate demand for geothermal

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Speaker 1: capacity in the US. Our guest today is hit A Thorsteinsen,

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Speaker 1: Managing director for Research and Innovation at RECULC Energy. As

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Speaker 1: always being if to not provide investment or strategy advice,

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Speaker 1: and you can hear the full disclaimer at the end

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Speaker 1: of the show, I'm Mark Taylor coming to you from

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Speaker 1: a force of nature and engineering at the base of

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Speaker 1: a mountain in Iceland and you're listening to switch on

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Speaker 1: the BENF podcast. Hit A, Hi, Hi, Where are we?

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Speaker 1: We are at har which is a concert hall and

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Speaker 1: a conference hall here in the downtown Regulic built just

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Speaker 1: after the crash. It was a big decision to actually

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Speaker 1: go ahead and finish the building, but it is so

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Speaker 1: beautiful and such a centerpiece in the middle of Reckevic.

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Speaker 1: It really is. The first time I was here back

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Speaker 1: in geez oh nine, it was not here. It was

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Speaker 1: just the the boats on the waterfront here, which are beautiful.

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Speaker 1: They are beautiful. We have this beautiful architecture designed by

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Speaker 1: Oliver Elison. It's built around assault columns and you can

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Speaker 1: change the lights in and the light is always different

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Speaker 1: depending on the weather, and then you have this beautiful

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Speaker 1: view over the port. It really is. It's just breathtaking.

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Speaker 1: Why are we here. We're here because over the past

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Speaker 1: three days we just had the largest Geothermore congress in

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Speaker 1: the world. We had over eleven participants here in Recovic

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Speaker 1: and then nine participants online, and so this was the

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Speaker 1: world geother one Congress. We've been planning this thing for

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Speaker 1: eight years now. We had to postpone because of COVID,

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Speaker 1: but we finally made it. Everyone here and it was

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Speaker 1: so great to get together. It really was. And I

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Speaker 1: came up for it and I had to say it was.

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Speaker 1: It was a huge success. Yeah, there's people everywhere, learned

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Speaker 1: a ton, got a great update on the industry, and

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Speaker 1: it was great to see people. Yeah, it truly was.

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Speaker 1: If I may say, you did a great job. You

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Speaker 1: and your group organized the whole thing and it was

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Speaker 1: really fantastic. Thank you. We really enjoyed it and it

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Speaker 1: was great to be able to get people here in

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Speaker 1: showcase what Iceland has been doing in the industry for

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Speaker 1: so long, but also how we're involving and innovating. We

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Speaker 1: can do a lot through virtual and we have over

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Speaker 1: the past two years. But getting together, that's where the

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Speaker 1: magic happens in the connections, and it was wonderful, awesome.

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Speaker 1: Let's set the scene a little bit and then we'll

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Speaker 1: get into the industry. Can you tell us really quick

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Speaker 1: where you work and what do you do there? I

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Speaker 1: work at Recovic Energy. It's a parent company of a

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Speaker 1: bunch of energy companies. Basically, we have made the utilities,

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Speaker 1: which is the utilities for all of Recovic and several

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Speaker 1: other towns in Iceland. We serve over seventy of the

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Speaker 1: nation with geothermal district eating, cold water, sewage services, electrical distribution.

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Speaker 1: We also have on Power it's a geothermal power producer

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Speaker 1: and operator and they sell power from two co generation

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Speaker 1: geothermal power plants. And then we have a fiber optic

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Speaker 1: network and then car Fix our newest and youngest member,

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Speaker 1: which mineralizes CEO two in the ground, which is awesome,

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Speaker 1: really cool. And you do the research and innovation group right, Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: I have the research innovation group in the parent company

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Speaker 1: and we serve all of the subsidiary so we get

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Speaker 1: to be involved with everything, which is very fun. I

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Speaker 1: was talking to a lot of people over the few

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Speaker 1: days about new tech, and it turned out that basically

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Speaker 1: everybody either worked for or works for you, So there

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Speaker 1: at one point anybody doing cool stuff is in your

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Speaker 1: in your team. Yeah, we have a we have a

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Speaker 1: great team, lots of cool scientists, engineers. There's just so

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Speaker 1: much there's so much activity, enthusiasm and all our projects.

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Speaker 1: There's so many projects that are really really progressing. It

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Speaker 1: just gives hope for the future. So going back to

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Speaker 1: the event, right, so this is the first event in

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Speaker 1: geothermal or first thing I've in geothermal I've done since

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Speaker 1: I'd say, when I moderated a panel geez at Geo

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Speaker 1: Lack in Costa Rica. What has changed in the geothermal

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Speaker 1: industry since that time? So just to set the scene

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Speaker 1: back when I was doing that, what I was interested

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Speaker 1: in at the time was fracking existing geothermal wells to

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Speaker 1: get more production out of them, hybrid geothermal and solar,

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Speaker 1: you know, to get more production out of the plant

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Speaker 1: and use the land more efficiently, I guess, and drilling

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Speaker 1: risk funds to sort of spread the risk of drilling

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Speaker 1: geo wells. Are those still hot topics or what's changed?

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Speaker 1: I think we've done all those and we're moving on

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Speaker 1: and and we're expanding into what can we hybrid with

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Speaker 1: other technologies like hydrogen production. We can use geothermal to

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Speaker 1: produce hydrogen. Because geothermal is mostly a baseload power, you

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Speaker 1: can have it flexible and we've been working with that

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Speaker 1: as well, which is an exciting subject. But we can

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Speaker 1: also use hydrogen to make it flexible, so we producing

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Speaker 1: hydrogen at night, solving during the day to the market.

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Speaker 1: We've been working with technologies of taking the small emissions

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Speaker 1: we have from geothermal, but actually taking the CEO two

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Speaker 1: out of those and mineralizing them with carb fixed and

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Speaker 1: that has been a fantastic journey that happened within my company,

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Speaker 1: started as at Tiny R and D Project and is

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Speaker 1: now his own company and doing great things. The other

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Speaker 1: new story is back then, we weren't talking about direct use.

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Speaker 1: We weren't talking about heating and cooling what we've done

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Speaker 1: here in Iceland for so long. The first district heating system, Reculix,

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Speaker 1: started in n If we're going to change the world,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna move into a carbon free or carbon neutral world,

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Speaker 1: we need to find ways to heat and cooler buildings

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Speaker 1: with something else than fossil fuels and geothermal is a

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Speaker 1: great option and it's underutilized. There's so many things we

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Speaker 1: can do with that as a part of the circular economy.

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Speaker 1: I think that's the solution that now Europe is recognizing,

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Speaker 1: the United States is recognizing, we're seeing that people weren't

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Speaker 1: talking about that. And then the third thing is maybe

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Speaker 1: oil and gas is coming back in with a strong

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Speaker 1: interest and push that we're moving the whole world into

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Speaker 1: a new era, new energy era. Oil and gas is

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Speaker 1: realizing they have a lot of competencies in subserve fist

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Speaker 1: technologies which we use in geothermal, and we can work together.

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Speaker 1: I think we're gonna come back to each one of

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Speaker 1: those in turn. And we're not going to spend a

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Speaker 1: whole ton of time on the CEO two mineralization today.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna do a whole other episode on that with

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Speaker 1: card Fix. But I do want to spend more time

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Speaker 1: on the second to so the district heating and coming

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Speaker 1: back of let's say, well in gas on the district heating.

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Speaker 1: So I was at the man, forgive my pronunciation, I

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Speaker 1: was at a geothermal plant yesterday. I'd call it hell

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Speaker 1: a scity, but it's called headless saving. Oh my goodness,

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Speaker 1: thank you. If you ever in Iceland, it's a beautiful place.

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Speaker 1: They have a fantastic visitors center. You can even see

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Speaker 1: the turbine hall where the where the turbines are spinning

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Speaker 1: and producing the power, and you can see the pipes

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Speaker 1: running all over the field. It's really great. Just have

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Speaker 1: a visit. But one part of the tour that was

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Speaker 1: really cool was that they showed this giant cross section

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Speaker 1: of a pipe that takes the fluid once it's cooled

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Speaker 1: down a bit, and pipes it all the way to

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Speaker 1: Recock And I think it said it takes what thirty

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Speaker 1: hours for the fluid to get there or something like that,

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Speaker 1: and then it is used for what's called district heating.

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Speaker 1: Is that right? Can you tell us a bit more

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Speaker 1: about that? Yea, So district heating system and Recular is

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Speaker 1: actually served by a few resource areas. Some are low

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Speaker 1: temperature and low temperatures around a hundred degrees celsius and below.

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Speaker 1: We have actually wells within the city. We're sitting on

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Speaker 1: a geotimal resource and so we use that and have

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Speaker 1: used that since nineteen and then later on when we

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Speaker 1: needed more resources, we developed the high temperature fields, both

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Speaker 1: for power and discertaining, and so that we take cold

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Speaker 1: groundwater actually and heat it up with the high temperature

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Speaker 1: resource and then transport into town. It's about thirty kilometers.

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Speaker 1: The water loses about one to two degrees of heat

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Speaker 1: in that thirty hours, so that's it, and we delivered

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Speaker 1: to houses and recommenc in the capital area at around

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Speaker 1: eighty degrees celsius and that's what heat our homes. That's

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Speaker 1: also the hot potable water in the sinks. I noticed

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Speaker 1: it in my hotel room Iceland. I'd always heard about

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Speaker 1: it that in the winter everybody here, you know, has

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Speaker 1: their heating on but the windows open, And that was

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Speaker 1: how it was in my hotel room right when I

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Speaker 1: walked in. It's very cool. It is cool, but as

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Speaker 1: we progress as a as a world, we can't do

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Speaker 1: that forever. Even here in Iceland, we have plenty of resource,

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Speaker 1: but we're learning that we need to take care of

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Speaker 1: every drop. And I just had that conversation with an

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Speaker 1: old aunt of mine because she heard me saying that

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Speaker 1: this exact thing on the radio and she's like, but

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Speaker 1: hit a, what about what about like moisture? And we

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Speaker 1: have to we have to let it out. We have

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Speaker 1: to get fresh air. Was like, yes, but you can

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Speaker 1: turn down your radio. If you do that, you don't

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Speaker 1: have to have both blasting. But that's the culture and

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Speaker 1: that's what we have to change. I think all over

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Speaker 1: the world. Okay, yeah, energy efficiency and not wasting anywhere. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think a thing that we come across a lot

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Speaker 1: when talking about Iceland is yeah, but can we talk

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Speaker 1: about that for just a second. So like, yeah, this

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Speaker 1: works in Iceland, it works in Recovic, but this district

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Speaker 1: heating does it work elsewhere? It most certainly does. We've

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Speaker 1: shown that, for instance, in China. We had icelanders consultants

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Speaker 1: go to China. I can't remember ten years ago, fifteen

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Speaker 1: years ago, worked with the Chinese government, worked with Cinepec,

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Speaker 1: large energy company and geothermal district heating is now heating

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Speaker 1: I think two million homes in China and they're actually

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Speaker 1: utilizing temperatures way below what we're using, about fifty degrees celsius. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: What they're doing is they have better efficiency in their houses.

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Speaker 1: They're better than us. They don't open their windows, and

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Speaker 1: it really expanding fast and the government is is pushing

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Speaker 1: hard and so the next actually world Geothermal Congress will

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Speaker 1: be in China, and I think that just reflects the

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Speaker 1: enthusiasm there. We have district heating networks all over Europe

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Speaker 1: and they've been using other sources of energy for a

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Speaker 1: very long time and changing over to a new energy

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Speaker 1: so is always complicated. It was complicated here. It was

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Speaker 1: a political matter in nineteen thirty and it was a

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Speaker 1: political matter in nineteen forty three just before the World

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Speaker 1: War Two when we decided to expand. But what way

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Speaker 1: they were selling then is what we're still selling now

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Speaker 1: with the green transition. It was cleaner homes, cleaner skies

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Speaker 1: because we were heating our homes with fuel oil, with coal,

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Speaker 1: with pete. We have clouds of dark, cold smoke over

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Speaker 1: the city. You don't see that today, but it's a

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Speaker 1: very cold day. By the way, it's beautiful here today.

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Speaker 1: It's amazing. Yeah. Yeah, the forecast was rain all week

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Speaker 1: and I came prepped for it, but it's just blue

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Speaker 1: sky and wonderful. That's the thing with Iceland. You just

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Speaker 1: have to wait fifteen minutes and then weather changes. There

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Speaker 1: you go. It's kind of like London way. So let's

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Speaker 1: go back to point to So what I'm hearing so

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Speaker 1: far is that you know, doo thermals changing or has

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Speaker 1: a lot of potential to change, rather than you know,

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Speaker 1: just being a drill well really deep, hope and pray

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Speaker 1: you have a resource and pull up the fluid or

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Speaker 1: the steam. There's a lot of uses for the heat

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Speaker 1: whatever great it might be down below. Now, back when

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Speaker 1: I was a analyst looking more closely at this industry,

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Speaker 1: I worked a lot with the oil and gas companies.

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Speaker 1: About ten years ago. They were taking a good hard

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Speaker 1: look at this industry and a lot of them just

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Speaker 1: kind of passed said, you know what, now is not

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Speaker 1: the time you've mentioned their back again. Can you describe

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Speaker 1: a bit more of what they're doing and why. I

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Speaker 1: was talking to, for instance, Baker Hughes at the conference,

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Speaker 1: and they were saying that they've been serving geo thermal

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Speaker 1: the whole time, but in different different departments. Now they

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Speaker 1: brought the whole team together and they're focusing on what

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Speaker 1: they can do because they've realized they won't be doing

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Speaker 1: oil and gas forever. That's not the future. So where

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Speaker 1: are we going next? And geothermal is an obvious one

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Speaker 1: road for them, and they have the competencies, they have

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Speaker 1: people they want to do something that is good for

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Speaker 1: the planet. It's that's the same for I think for

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Speaker 1: people everywhere. You want to have that higher purpose and

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Speaker 1: geothermal gives you that because it's using the heat from

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Speaker 1: the earth to power the power our homes, and I

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Speaker 1: think that's what we're feeling. So we're seeing companies, big

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Speaker 1: companies like that, coming back in sponsoring conferences, taking part

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Speaker 1: in the research, taking some of the methods that they've

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Speaker 1: been using in oil and gas, and sort of how

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Speaker 1: how can we adopt them to geothermal, So listening to

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Speaker 1: the geothermal community but also coming in with their expertise.

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Speaker 1: And a couple have invested in it. But let's come

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Speaker 1: back to that in a minute. What I would want

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Speaker 1: to get to is that, Okay, So so Baker, Hughes

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Speaker 1: and others that you mentioned, they're not doing this at

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Speaker 1: a charity or you know, the goodness of their hearts.

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Speaker 1: So there must be at least the glimmer of a

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Speaker 1: of a future growth market here, and I'm wondering kind

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Speaker 1: of what that might be. So just to put some

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Speaker 1: context around that, So the BENF New Energy Outlook or

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Speaker 1: NEO our outlook for energy. We've got wind and solar

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Speaker 1: and hydro well, actually wind and solar making up about

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Speaker 1: of capacity now, but about fifty for wind and solar

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Speaker 1: and for hydro about under one scenario. And then there's

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Speaker 1: a thirty percent, you know, sort of gap of other stuff. Batteries,

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Speaker 1: it could be ccs, you know, fossil fuels with ccs,

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Speaker 1: it could be nuclear, it could be a lot of things.

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Speaker 1: What role does geothermal play in that other Can it

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Speaker 1: take a big part of that pie or what what

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Speaker 1: can do there? I think it really can, And especially

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Speaker 1: in the heating and cooling capacity. I think that's our

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Speaker 1: lowest hanging fruit. It's the most spread out throughout the world.

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Speaker 1: There's so many countries that can actually utilize. Of countries

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Speaker 1: coming into directly used like the Netherlands. We never thought

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Speaker 1: of the Netherlands as a geothermal powerhouse, but they've been

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Speaker 1: really expanding their direct use for greenhouses. We have dict

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Speaker 1: heating around Paris, France, Munich, Germany is working on it.

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Speaker 1: There's a project up in Denmark. So those countries and

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Speaker 1: those regions that are focusing that have clear climate targets,

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Speaker 1: they will use geothermal direct use and many will use

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Speaker 1: electricity production as well. Yeah, those are not the places

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Speaker 1: that you would think of when you think geothermal, you

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Speaker 1: think volcanoes, right, Like, do you think anywhere with a

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Speaker 1: volcano is And that's why I used to tell people,

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Speaker 1: you know, geothermals anywhere that that's got a volcano basically,

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Speaker 1: But that's yeah, I guess not true anymore. There are

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Speaker 1: no volcanoes in Denmark or the Netherlands right right. So

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Speaker 1: the question is can geothermal power as we know it

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Speaker 1: play a role in the future energy mix? I think

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Speaker 1: it definitely can. We can see it in California, for instance,

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Speaker 1: there's RFPs specifically for geothermal. Yeah, what's an r request

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Speaker 1: for proposals for power? And they're looking for geothermal specifically

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Speaker 1: or a base load power that can be up of

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Speaker 1: the time that's renewable. And there's not many technologies that

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Speaker 1: fit into that, but geothermal definitely does. And so in

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Speaker 1: those regions where we have the high temperature resource or

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Speaker 1: around hundred degrees, we will reproducing power with the resource,

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Speaker 1: there's no question. And it can play an important role

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Speaker 1: in those regions like it does here is of the

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Speaker 1: electricity production in Iceland. It will be in California and Nevada,

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Speaker 1: other countries around the world, Kenya big on geothermal, and Indonesia,

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Speaker 1: Philippines of course, all of those big countries. I would

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Speaker 1: to say geo thermal can be summed up by that

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Speaker 1: old song nice work if you can get it, you know,

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Speaker 1: if you have the resources, great, it's a it's a

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Speaker 1: really fantastic addition to your to your energy mix, and

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Speaker 1: it seems like we'll see more of that. But it's

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Speaker 1: also well we'll have Paul Thompson from ormat On on

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Speaker 1: the show talking about this as well, that it's a

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Speaker 1: cold potensially be really good for geothermal to promote its

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Speaker 1: benefit it as a baseload power right in the future,

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Speaker 1: we of course need all the solar and when we

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Speaker 1: can get but it is intermittent, we'll go into energy storage.

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Speaker 1: But when we have a resource right there that's baseload

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Speaker 1: in the ground just waiting to be tapped, and it's economical,

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Speaker 1: it's common sense, we're going to use it. Okay. So

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Speaker 1: the question is can geo thermal scale and then why?

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Speaker 1: But also we're getting at what it can be used for.

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Speaker 1: Some other things that came to mind though are okay,

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Speaker 1: so maybe even bitcoin mining or getting creative here, maybe

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Speaker 1: it could be hydrogen production. You mentioned hydrogen production briefly

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Speaker 1: the top can you can you talk about some of

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Speaker 1: the other uses that could be used for so definitely hydrogen,

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Speaker 1: either as to make it more flexible or just straight

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Speaker 1: on more flexible use and twenty four hour production. We

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Speaker 1: are doing bitcoin mining in Iceland to a thermal power,

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Speaker 1: so that's one of the yeah, yes we can do

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Speaker 1: that and first rounded power all kinds of things, and

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Speaker 1: then direct the air capture. That's one of our customers.

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Speaker 1: They often need heat for their technologies. You're capturing CEO

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Speaker 1: two from the air, you might need to heat up

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Speaker 1: the medium or whatever you're doing to capture that. Direct

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Speaker 1: use is perfect for that. All kinds of industries, like

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Speaker 1: I know in New Zealand, milk powder production is a

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Speaker 1: big industry and there's drying involved with that. They're using

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Speaker 1: geothermal any kind of food production. We're producing algae up

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Speaker 1: at had to say they with our geothermal resource. They

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Speaker 1: use the energy, the hot water and the electricity. In

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Speaker 1: some cases you can use the CEO two from the

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Speaker 1: resource if it's pure enough. So all of these food production,

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Speaker 1: hydrogen production, bitcoin mining, and especially when you combine the

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Speaker 1: benefit of electricity and heat. So basically you're saying anything

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Speaker 1: that can use will either electricity or a low grade

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Speaker 1: industrial agricultural heat. Right, So it's not going to be

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Speaker 1: your your blast furnace, you know, but it will be

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Speaker 1: your your other process heat. Very interesting. Let's go back

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Speaker 1: to the oil and gas interest. So back in February,

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Speaker 1: Chevron Technology Ventures and BP Ventures put it, along with

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Speaker 1: ten A seconds some other investors, forty million into a

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Speaker 1: new technology being, you know, driven by a company called Eva,

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Speaker 1: which is called closed loop to your Thermal. So to me,

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Speaker 1: you know, I thought that was pretty cool. Can we

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Speaker 1: just talk about a little bit about what closed loop

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Speaker 1: to you? A thermal is kind of the concept. It's

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Speaker 1: a nazing idea, but it's exciting. Everywhere in the in

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Speaker 1: the world we have heat in the ground just depends

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Speaker 1: on how deep you go. So when we talk about

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Speaker 1: only high temperatures only where well canoes is, it's because

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Speaker 1: the heat is so high and we have fractured ground.

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Speaker 1: But closed loop is about drilling down, pumping the water

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Speaker 1: through the heated ground without sort of making your own

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Speaker 1: reservoir with In a closed loop though, so you you're

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Speaker 1: pumping it down one in one well and taking it

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Speaker 1: up another so it's it's a closed loop. Closed loop

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Speaker 1: to you a thermal. All of those ideas are really

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Speaker 1: exciting because they expand another expansion of the industry into

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Speaker 1: new frontiers and expands the geography of where it can

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Speaker 1: be done and reduces the risk. Potentially it could because

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Speaker 1: there's one aspect for enhanced shield thermal systems, which is

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Speaker 1: also very exciting research going on, especially in the US

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Speaker 1: and other places, and enhanced gieldrmal resources can be you're

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Speaker 1: going deeper, you're going into magma, or you're creating your

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Speaker 1: own system somewhere where we don't have that fractured rock

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Speaker 1: and so you're you're fracturing the rock with pressures. But

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Speaker 1: with closed loop in theory, you could basically drill your

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Speaker 1: loop and so instead of fracturing and relying on pressures,

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Speaker 1: you're drilling the whole way. It's an interesting and exciting concept. Cool. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I really look forward to seeing what happens there. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so we talked a lot about the potential. Let's talk

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Speaker 1: about some of the challenges, right, So let's be very blunt.

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Speaker 1: Cost is still a challenge in geothermal, so wind solar,

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Speaker 1: you know, bargain basement cost geothermal hasn't changed a whole

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Speaker 1: lot since at least been started tracking costs back in

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Speaker 1: two thousand nine, So can you comment on the cost

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Speaker 1: of geo thermal and what some of the challenges are

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Speaker 1: there here? Nicely, we've gotten the costs well down because

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Speaker 1: we know our resources, and I think that's upfront risk

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Speaker 1: is often the hardest to overcome, and the capex at

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Speaker 1: the start of the project because we need to do

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Speaker 1: the drilling before we get to the resource. Before we

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Speaker 1: do the drilling, we need to know what's down there

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Speaker 1: and we have to use indirect methods for that, and

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Speaker 1: we still have risk there. With risk comes cost, and

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Speaker 1: I think that's where, for instance, the oil and gas

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Speaker 1: they've done a lot to overcome that risk in their industry.

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Speaker 1: They have different geologies, but many other technologies can be transferred,

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Speaker 1: and that's what we've been working on in the past

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Speaker 1: few years and that's what's going to be continued. So

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Speaker 1: I think that cost is still there, but I see

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Speaker 1: definite potential of getting that down, both in drilling expiration

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Speaker 1: and then in just in higher efficiencies in the network,

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Speaker 1: in the technology and as you cascade the usage of

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Speaker 1: a resource. If you're not, just, for instance, producing power,

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Speaker 1: but getting other revenue streams, you're upping the upside as well. Yeah, okay,

429
00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,880
Speaker 1: So Paul Thompson yesterday said, you know, when they sell power,

430
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:56,240
Speaker 1: they've got three things. They're selling the power, the renewable

431
00:21:56,280 --> 00:22:00,479
Speaker 1: energy credits, and the capacity. So the uh the payment

432
00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:02,439
Speaker 1: for just the utility to be able to call on

433
00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:04,679
Speaker 1: the power at any given time. That's very true. The

434
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:08,040
Speaker 1: uptime for geother plants is very high up here, and

435
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:11,120
Speaker 1: I had to say that for instance, initiament it we're

436
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:13,600
Speaker 1: on twenty four hours a day, seven days a week.

437
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,679
Speaker 1: We have about a week of maintenance a week a

438
00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:20,080
Speaker 1: year or two. But but it's it's a baseload, the

439
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:24,880
Speaker 1: powers at hand at all times. So if I'm Google

440
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,800
Speaker 1: or Microsoft, you know, and I'm really interested in building

441
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,320
Speaker 1: a data center in Iceland, and I come to you

442
00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:32,639
Speaker 1: and I say, I really want to do this, but

443
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:34,560
Speaker 1: you know what, the price for geothermal is a bit

444
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:36,679
Speaker 1: too high, So I'm gonna go build somewhere else. What

445
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:39,720
Speaker 1: do you say before I go? Before you go, the

446
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:42,680
Speaker 1: prices aren't that high in Icelands, definitely make it makes sense,

447
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:46,840
Speaker 1: but anywhere in the world I think, yes, you can

448
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:48,760
Speaker 1: build on wind and solar, but you always have to

449
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:50,680
Speaker 1: have some backup. Then you have to have story. Data

450
00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,840
Speaker 1: centers are running twenty four hours a day, so you

451
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:56,080
Speaker 1: need to have some sort of baseload or energy storage

452
00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:58,800
Speaker 1: or something in your system. And geothermal is a real

453
00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:02,360
Speaker 1: good option, even though it might have a premium minsum areas,

454
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,240
Speaker 1: that's what you're paying for. You're paying for that energy

455
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:07,680
Speaker 1: security that you need for your data system, specifically on

456
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:09,600
Speaker 1: data centers. Is it a bad assumption to assume that

457
00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,679
Speaker 1: you could use the fluid for cooling as well? Okay, No,

458
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,000
Speaker 1: it's it's a very very astute assumption. I would say,

459
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 1: and and and and the data centers we have out

460
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:22,760
Speaker 1: here and recans are doing similar things out there because

461
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:25,400
Speaker 1: they're using power from recanism, using power from head to say.

462
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:28,080
Speaker 1: Then and then there's the districtating system in the area

463
00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:31,560
Speaker 1: that's helping. And then talking about circular economy. Then once

464
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:33,879
Speaker 1: you cool, you can actually use the heat from the

465
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:37,359
Speaker 1: data centers back into heating more water to put into

466
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,479
Speaker 1: the distantating system. Okay, and a lot of keen listeners

467
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:42,920
Speaker 1: might be familiar with the term, well with that plant,

468
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 1: why do they know it's it's a geothermal power plat

469
00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:52,119
Speaker 1: and and the Blue Lagoon see coming from Iceland, I

470
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:56,400
Speaker 1: just take that for granted, exactly exactly. It's my kid's

471
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 1: favorite place in the world, absolutely, no question. So. But

472
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:01,680
Speaker 1: we know the geothermal industry has been kind of kept

473
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:05,600
Speaker 1: small globally, right like wind and solar have exploded. Geothermal

474
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:07,520
Speaker 1: is again nice work if you can get it. It's

475
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:09,480
Speaker 1: it's good in the places where it's good. What do

476
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 1: you see as the biggest roadblock to geothermal growth or proliferation.

477
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,439
Speaker 1: I think getting the capital into the industry, and I

478
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 1: think for us to do that in some places, we

479
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 1: need to become more systematic. And I think geothermal resources

480
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 1: each one is unique in a way. You have different

481
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:32,520
Speaker 1: geologic formations, water, steam, different things. But we need to

482
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 1: get better at standardizing how we do things and having

483
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:37,840
Speaker 1: a sort of standard way for investors to come in

484
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 1: and say that they can compare portfolio of projects in

485
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 1: the same way. And I think that's where we're headed.

486
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:47,359
Speaker 1: It's sometimes system changes and industry changes are are harder

487
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 1: than the actual technological changes because they can be done

488
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,439
Speaker 1: in one corner. This has to be an industry wide effort,

489
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:55,720
Speaker 1: but I think I think we're on the way. And

490
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:59,879
Speaker 1: and the International Geothermal Association both with its recollect Declaration

491
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:04,359
Speaker 1: and the Geothermal Sustainability Assessment Protocol, it's moving in that

492
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 1: direction and is pushing the industry and the industry wants

493
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:09,680
Speaker 1: to so I think we are changing in that direction.

494
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,200
Speaker 1: And on standardization, I mean, that's a that's a thing

495
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:15,359
Speaker 1: everywhere in every sector. And I was talking to several

496
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:17,639
Speaker 1: people yesterday, both on the panel that that I was

497
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 1: on when we were talking about CO two storage with

498
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 1: car fix, is that you know, there's a lot of

499
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,399
Speaker 1: things that are over engineered, and there's a sense that

500
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:24,719
Speaker 1: you know, in some cases you just need to kind

501
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 1: of get on with it, not treated as a science project,

502
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:30,680
Speaker 1: but a business in some cases, getting that business perspective

503
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 1: in keeping it simple but still something that's in depth

504
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:37,160
Speaker 1: enough that you can trust. So that's that balance. Don't

505
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 1: go too far, don't over engineer because that will add

506
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 1: to the cost, but make sure that you can compare

507
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 1: different options. I think you know the answer to this,

508
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 1: But what is the one thing you're most excited about

509
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:51,359
Speaker 1: right now in this sector? Direct use? I was right, okay,

510
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 1: and uh and and and being from Iceland. When I

511
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 1: was little, I thought all houses were heated with geothermal.

512
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,160
Speaker 1: That's what I grew up with. And you just turn

513
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 1: on your radiator or the tap, and the hot water

514
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:05,160
Speaker 1: that's coming into your house is coming from the ground

515
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,120
Speaker 1: somewhere below you. Right, that's what it likes, what it's

516
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 1: like everywhere in the world. And then I moved abroad

517
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:12,919
Speaker 1: and I grew up, and I always obviously realized that

518
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,359
Speaker 1: that's not the case. But the comfort of that and

519
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 1: the energy security, that's one of the biggest reasons Iceland

520
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,439
Speaker 1: went into it. It's a local resource. We're not getting

521
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:25,080
Speaker 1: gas from another country somewhere far away. We don't have

522
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:30,160
Speaker 1: fluctuating prices for our homeheating, very stable, low prices. It's

523
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,439
Speaker 1: been great for our economy, and I want that for

524
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 1: other countries in other regions. Well, actually, okay, we can.

525
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:36,920
Speaker 1: We can dig into that for just a second. When

526
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 1: you moved abroad. We met in two thousand seven in

527
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 1: you when you were at m I T. So you

528
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 1: moved abroad to Massachusetts all places, right, okay, So, and

529
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 1: I was working in d C for the for the

530
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:54,159
Speaker 1: Geothermal Energy Association back then, so I don't remember the

531
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 1: exact year. But a company called Dandelion do you know it, Yes,

532
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:03,160
Speaker 1: I've heard about it. They started doing ground source geothermal

533
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 1: in Massa Usett exactly. Yeah. And that's a that's a

534
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:10,120
Speaker 1: really expanding industry because and that can be done anywhere.

535
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,640
Speaker 1: You're just using the heat difference and using and using

536
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,640
Speaker 1: the stable temperatures of the ground. And it's really big

537
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 1: in Sweden, it's really big in many parts of the US,

538
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 1: all over Europe. It's a fantastic technology. It's an energy

539
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:28,200
Speaker 1: efficiency geothermal technology that is hard to explain, and that's

540
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,119
Speaker 1: why sometimes it's a hard sell because what is the

541
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,159
Speaker 1: heat difference thing? I would say, don't worry about it,

542
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 1: trust the engineers and do it because it's gonna save

543
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:38,440
Speaker 1: you money and it's good for the environment. That's all

544
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 1: you need. That's all you need. We did a show

545
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 1: on that a long time ago about all this choice

546
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 1: people have in their electricity bill, you know, their provider.

547
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,359
Speaker 1: And the conclusion kind of from our analysts that you know,

548
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,440
Speaker 1: people don't really really really care. Some you know, dig

549
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 1: into it, but most just want to pay less and

550
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,919
Speaker 1: know that the energy they're getting is okay, you know.

551
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 1: And I'm definitely in that camp. I really they don't

552
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,919
Speaker 1: want to think about it. But anyway, one final question,

553
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:04,919
Speaker 1: so I asked this yesterday in the panel. We just

554
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:10,359
Speaker 1: had the World Geothermal Congress yesterday, the next one in China.

555
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 1: So let's say ten years from now, you know, in

556
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,119
Speaker 1: two more of these, what are we going to be

557
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:18,919
Speaker 1: talking about. We are going to be talking about the

558
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,639
Speaker 1: great expansion and direct use, because if Europe is gonna

559
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 1: meet its green goals, if other regions and countries are

560
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,679
Speaker 1: going to meet the green goals, we need that direct use.

561
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 1: And it's easy to do. The barriers are systematic and policy.

562
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 1: Those can be overcome with the push that's going on,

563
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 1: and so I think we will do that. We'll be

564
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 1: talking about how geothermal has pushed into regions where solar

565
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 1: and wind are big right now, and geothermal came in

566
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 1: as the baseload supplier that really helped secure that grid.

567
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 1: And we're going to talk about the new technologies. Card

568
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 1: fixed will no longer just be a geothermal thing. It's

569
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 1: already working with aluminum smelters to capture and mineralize there

570
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 1: so too, it will be everywhere and other mineralization technologies

571
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 1: and of cascade use. The future is bright. The future

572
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 1: does look indeed. Pride for Geothermal hit A thank you

573
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 1: so much, really much my pleasure. Today's episode of Switched

574
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 1: On was edited by Rex Warner of gray Stoke Media.

575
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 1: Bloomberg an EAP is a service provided by Bloomberg Finance

576
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 1: LP and its affiliates. This recording does not constitute, nor

577
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: should it be construed, as investment advice, investment recommendations, or

578
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 1: a recommendation as to an investment or other strategy. Bloomberguin

579
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 1: e F should not be considered as information sufficient upon

580
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 1: which to base an investment decision. Neither Bloomberg Finance LP

581
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 1: nor any of its affiliates makes any representation or warranty

582
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,120
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583
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,520
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584
00:29:47,520 --> 00:30:00,040
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