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Speaker 2: What kind of a show you guys putting on here today?
Speaker 1: You're not interested in armed now? So look, we're going
Speaker 1: to do this thing. We're going to have a conversation. Hey,
Speaker 1: film spotters, Adam and Josh. Here. The sixth and final
Speaker 1: film in our Dissident Cinema Marathon is Jafar Panahi's chronicle
Speaker 1: of contemporary Ron Circle the late nineties.
Speaker 3: The Circle.
Speaker 2: The Dissident Cinema Marathon is dedicated to films that depict
Speaker 2: or openly confront fascism of various kinds. We have discussed
Speaker 2: six films in all, or we will have once we
Speaker 2: get through this conversation about the Circle. You can find
Speaker 2: the full lineup at filmspotting dot net. Slash marathons. You
Speaker 2: can also find there our entire history of marathons. We
Speaker 2: have done over fifty of these over the years. What
Speaker 2: are these well? Marathon is the word we use to
Speaker 2: describe these series where we try to eliminate our cinematic
Speaker 2: blind spots. They are often devoted to directors or actors
Speaker 2: or genres, sometimes even regions of world cinema. I had
Speaker 2: to look up, Josh where this film placed exactly in
Speaker 2: Panahi's filmography has been a favorite of mine, certainly over
Speaker 2: the years of doing this show, as I've gotten to
Speaker 2: discover his work. It's his third feature after The White
Speaker 2: Balloon in nineteen ninety five, and then my beloved The Mirror,
Speaker 2: a movie that became beloved for me after watching it
Speaker 2: as part of a marathon here on Film Spotting that
Speaker 2: came out in nineteen ninety seven. This movie closing out
Speaker 2: our marathon is a little bit of an outlier due
Speaker 2: to the time of its release. I did bring up
Speaker 2: whether or not it belonged in this marathon or we
Speaker 2: should just conclude after five movies. Because we had a
Speaker 2: run of what nineteen forty to basically nineteen sixty nine,
Speaker 2: It was kind of compact about three decades, and most
Speaker 2: of what we were recovering was really dealing with World
Speaker 2: War two. It seemed really nice and tidy, and then
Speaker 2: all of a sudden we were jumping ahead to the
Speaker 2: year two thousand and also in terms of subject matter,
Speaker 2: not so much dealing with fascism per se, but definitely
Speaker 2: an oppressive state, as this film is confronting Iran's treatment
Speaker 2: of women in terms of quality, because if I remember correctly,
Speaker 2: we have been fans of every film, both of us,
Speaker 2: every film in this marathon. Yeah, was The Circle an
Speaker 2: outlier or is it an appropriate conclusion to the marathon?
Speaker 1: I think it's appropriate on many terms, including its quality.
Speaker 1: I think it holds up alongside of these classics we've
Speaker 1: been we've been visiting. And I also think, you know,
Speaker 1: we have been tossing around fascism a lot. It's probably
Speaker 1: been the go to phrase for this Dissonan cinema marathon,
Speaker 1: But honestly, in thinking about it in larger terms, we
Speaker 1: were discussing oppressive regimes, authoritarianism, any system of that sort
Speaker 1: that is really limiting human freedom in systematic ways, and
Speaker 1: that's absolutely what we see here. And I do think,
Speaker 1: you know, also there's some unfortunate relevance in the fact
Speaker 1: that we have this pretty blatantly illegal war launched against
Speaker 1: Iran on the part of the United States right now,
Speaker 1: and any chance to get to know an area that
Speaker 1: is being besieged in this way, I think is the
Speaker 1: movies just offer you a really helpful way to get
Speaker 1: your mind around that, beyond news reports and other sources
Speaker 1: of information. You know, I was grateful to our contemporary
Speaker 1: Iranian Cinema marathon when we first did it, for helping
Speaker 1: to educate and enlighten about that part of the world.
Speaker 1: And you know, those questions are anew with the conflict
Speaker 1: going on right now, and so I do think it
Speaker 1: was nice to see again set decades ago now but
Speaker 1: still to learn about movements and people's experiences of the
Speaker 1: regimes in Iran even now. So yeah, I think I'm
Speaker 1: glad we're here. Glad is a strange word. This hasn't
Speaker 1: been the cheeriest of marathons, but I do think it's
Speaker 1: it's fitting. Yeah, curious to hear what you think along
Speaker 1: those lines, and absolutely want to dig into that quality
Speaker 1: question you asked.
Speaker 2: I had a similar reaction as you. I'm certainly glad
Speaker 2: that we watched it. It's befitting in terms of its
Speaker 2: subject matter and befitting in terms of of quality. Trust
Speaker 2: Panahe to find the perfect I'm going to dig in,
Speaker 2: trust Panahi to find the perfect formal conceit to convey
Speaker 2: this portrait of systemic oppression. Right, this is what he
Speaker 2: has become so known for over the years. I have
Speaker 2: not seen The White Balloon, but I wondered if, even
Speaker 2: from the very beginning he was trying cinematic techniques like this,
Speaker 2: And from what I could understand, I didn't want to
Speaker 2: learn too much about it. It seems like that movie
Speaker 2: is relatively straightforward. It did win the Camera Door for
Speaker 2: Best First Feature at the can Film Festival in ninety five.
Speaker 2: The Guardian listed it as one of the fifty best
Speaker 2: family films. Ever, Bfi said that it's one of fifty
Speaker 2: films you should see by the age of fourteen. So
Speaker 2: this is a movie we should probably reckon with. At
Speaker 2: some point. We should see The White Balloons. But in
Speaker 2: terms of its narrative journey and how the craft and
Speaker 2: content meat pretty traditional. The Mirror next is where he
Speaker 2: starts playing the disruptor in terms of technique, and there's
Speaker 2: the Blue Heron esque rupturing of reality. Since then, he
Speaker 2: has almost always I'll say almost always because I didn't
Speaker 2: go back and look at every single film and every
Speaker 2: film that I know. He's almost always had a concept
Speaker 2: and an elegant one, and you catch on, or at
Speaker 2: least I thought I was catching on. Without knowing where
Speaker 2: this movie was going to go. I thought I might
Speaker 2: be catching on to the concept here when we get
Speaker 2: this incredible prelude the opening of this film. This opening scene,
Speaker 2: which is a relatively brief scene in terms of meeting
Speaker 2: this character, the grandmother character that the camera is focusing on.
Speaker 2: She is outside the door this whatever you want to
Speaker 2: call it, the food door or the peep holes. It
Speaker 2: looks like in a jail cell. You'll understand if you've
Speaker 2: seen the movie. Why I'm saying that. But this is
Speaker 2: a This is a hospital, and she's outside the door
Speaker 2: basically of a of a maternity room. Her daughter is
Speaker 2: giving birth, and at the beginning of this film, she's
Speaker 2: awaiting the good news that her daughter has given birth
Speaker 2: to a son. This is especially important to this family.
Speaker 2: It turns out, because the daughter's husband's family was told
Speaker 2: it would be a boy. The ultrasounds said it would
Speaker 2: be a boy. They want a boy, they're expecting a boy,
Speaker 2: and now she's just been told, congratulations, it's a girl.
Speaker 2: We don't even see the grandmother for a long time.
Speaker 2: We're just looking at the back of her head, but
Speaker 2: we can still understand, just from the way the camera
Speaker 2: is positioned behind her, per lack of movement, per lack
Speaker 2: of excitement, that something is off. And then we understand
Speaker 2: from her dialogue, where she essentially is saying some version
Speaker 2: of check again, that that can't be right. She's like, no,
Speaker 2: she doesn't believe it, and she doesn't more importantly, she
Speaker 2: doesn't want to believe it. But as as the camera then,
Speaker 2: and the camera, if I'm remembering correctly, I didn't go
Speaker 2: back just to be one hundred percent sure, But I
Speaker 2: think that entire opening is one long take, a continuous
Speaker 2: take where we follow her. I don't know if there
Speaker 2: are any cuts. We follow her past a couple of
Speaker 2: other characters, including another daughter, and then when she ends
Speaker 2: up out on the street, the baton, if you will,
Speaker 2: sort of gets passed to another character.
Speaker 3: And you you, and it's.
Speaker 2: In real time, and the fact that it's in real time,
Speaker 2: and the fact that then the grandmother disappears, you say, oh, okay,
Speaker 2: I wonder if then this is what's going to happen
Speaker 2: in this film is that we're going to be passed
Speaker 2: along different women and their stories, and that, indeed is
Speaker 2: the circle. That's just part of the circle metaphor of
Speaker 2: the title. That is indeed what happens, isn't it? And
Speaker 2: it is the It is the perfect metaphor. And I
Speaker 2: did not have a sense of just how perfect it
Speaker 2: would be and how devastating it would be until Panahi
Speaker 2: hits us with the stomach punch at the end.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the ending. I mean we should discuss in detail
Speaker 1: and give a little spoiler before we do that for
Speaker 1: folks who are encouraged to watch this for the first time,
Speaker 1: because I didn't know that's what was going to happen.
Speaker 1: But I do think it is the it is the
Speaker 1: triumph of the film is bringing us around to that point.
Speaker 1: You're right, but Tom, that's how I was thinking about
Speaker 1: this too. We essentially have a relay race here, because
Speaker 1: it's not just that first handoff. We go through I
Speaker 1: think three, possibly four or other women or groups of
Speaker 1: women we meet that the movie introduces us to. We
Speaker 1: run along with them for a short while. Some sort
Speaker 1: of resolution kind of comes in some segments, but yeah,
Speaker 1: not airways, and not fully. You know, the women's lives
Speaker 1: move ahead, certainly, but really do they get anywhere? I
Speaker 1: think we see that in most cases not. And you know,
Speaker 1: there's something also. There's a couple of ways this is
Speaker 1: so effective. And the one is we've talked about looking
Speaker 1: at these movies and their depictions of oppressive societies, and
Speaker 1: I think a lot of the movies we considered have
Speaker 1: a fairly broad canvas, you know, but still there are
Speaker 1: main characters in a lot of cases, or two or
Speaker 1: three main characters, and so we can get the sense of, well,
Speaker 1: this time and this oppression was experienced by this person,
Speaker 1: maybe this neighborhood. But by doing this, by expanding the
Speaker 1: canvas so wide in what is you know, probably the
Speaker 1: shortest film of the marathon, but certainly among them, in
Speaker 1: expanding things this wide, we really do get a sense
Speaker 1: of the societal reality that this isn't just a you know,
Speaker 1: a woman or two women in unfortunate situations, that this
Speaker 1: is a top down issue. So it does that, and
Speaker 1: it also does Adam, this is something you know, if
Speaker 1: you had told me the structure, I could have said, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's probably why he chose it, right, But it is
Speaker 1: only experiencing the structure that I think we realize. Going
Speaker 1: back to another quality you talked about devastating, I think
Speaker 1: there's a helplessness to not having these women's stories resolved
Speaker 1: or improved in most cases and anyway, and us as
Speaker 1: viewers moving on, you just feel so helpless, not obviously
Speaker 1: as a viewer that you could do so something for them,
Speaker 1: but I think there's a form of empathy going on.
Speaker 1: There's a contract between viewer and subject in a movie
Speaker 1: where we sort of feel like we're helping by watching
Speaker 1: something about our viewing, our attending, our witnessing, not practically
Speaker 1: but just in our movie going experience. We feel like
Speaker 1: we're there with them. And when that baton gets passed
Speaker 1: from one of them, still in a state of distress,
Speaker 1: and we pick up with someone else and we know
Speaker 1: we're likely not going to get back to the other person,
Speaker 1: there is an extra helplessness that I think feeds into
Speaker 1: that devastation you're describing that really makes this a wrenching,
Speaker 1: a wrenching experience. And let me go back just quickly
Speaker 1: to that, because you were laying it out in such
Speaker 1: detail that opening sequence. There's one thing I want to
Speaker 1: point out about the first baton pass as well, because
Speaker 1: it speaks to your point about Panahi's really incisive use
Speaker 1: of his locations and putting us in the moment, if
Speaker 1: not always precisely long, single takes, certainly longer takes that
Speaker 1: have that feeling. So we follow that grandmother out onto
Speaker 1: the street, and this is where we pick up three
Speaker 1: new women, Arazoo Nargs and then another woman who I
Speaker 1: don't think is named, and this is all on the
Speaker 1: block that the hospital is on. Basically, they separate. We're
Speaker 1: introduced to three women and they separate Nares. The youngest
Speaker 1: stays in the middle where the camera met them, and
Speaker 1: then one of them goes to one far end of
Speaker 1: the block and the other goes to the other far
Speaker 1: end of the block. And the camera looks back and forth,
Speaker 1: and what we're witnessing is that the woman, I think
Speaker 1: it's Arizoo, who goes to the one end to chase
Speaker 1: down a guy who just said something rude to them. Right,
Speaker 1: the other friend goes to the under end of the block.
Speaker 1: I think she's going to a newspaper stand, and the
Speaker 1: camera sees that she's beginning to have a confrontation with
Speaker 1: police and by going back and forth. By looking back
Speaker 1: and forth, we realize that in the course of a
Speaker 1: single block, this is what these three women are experiencing.
Speaker 1: In the middle now, Jess is in this just frightened
Speaker 1: state of not knowing where to move. And again it's
Speaker 1: we'll probably spend more time on this, but Panahi's use
Speaker 1: of the street settings, it just shows you that all
Speaker 1: of this can take place within the course of you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know, one hundred feet or whatever it is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, one hundred feet and a normal day, a fairly
Speaker 2: normal experience, and that is what we get over the
Speaker 2: course of this movie. Helplessness is the right word, because
Speaker 2: the only problem with us using the terminology baton or
Speaker 2: talking about it like it's a race is if it
Speaker 2: was really a race and they were going around the oval,
Speaker 2: is there's a finish line.
Speaker 3: But there's no finish line here.
Speaker 2: That's the entire point is this just continues and continues
Speaker 2: and there is no resolution. There's certainly no neat resolution
Speaker 2: to any of this, and sometimes we get that brought
Speaker 2: to life with the camera. Did you notice how often
Speaker 2: in spaces, whether it's at for example, the bus station,
Speaker 2: we see these women often going around in circles. There
Speaker 2: are parts of these locations where it feels like they
Speaker 2: are they are walking in a loop, or they're they're
Speaker 2: retracing their steps.
Speaker 3: That's one of this too.
Speaker 2: But often it's just a matter of their confinement. And
Speaker 2: that's that's what that's what he shows is that no
Speaker 2: matter where they are, no matter if they're in open spaces,
Speaker 2: they are somehow still trapped. They are trapped by this system.
Speaker 2: They are trapped by this this condition, the condition of
Speaker 2: this state that demands that men get to make all
Speaker 2: the decisions for them. Think about how many times you
Speaker 2: hear people say I mean Perry is one of the
Speaker 2: or Pari is one of the characters who she's she's
Speaker 2: four months pregnant, she has no identification, she doesn't have
Speaker 2: a father who can take responsibility for her, she doesn't
Speaker 2: have a husband, and she just says at one point
Speaker 2: to the one person she thinks can help her, I
Speaker 2: don't know what to do. I don't know where to go.
Speaker 2: And that's true. She she is completely helpless. The woman
Speaker 2: we see at the very end, Josh, who is on
Speaker 2: a bus and even the way that bus is shot,
Speaker 2: she's sitting there and and how is it how is
Speaker 2: it portrayed. There's like four other men and and they're
Speaker 2: they're all angled around her so that there's just there's
Speaker 2: just no escape there, there's no escape. And the bus,
Speaker 2: the ticket person, the taxi driver, they have to beg
Speaker 2: people to do them favors. They have to beg men
Speaker 2: to do them favors, simply to do basic things like
Speaker 2: I want to buy I want to buy a bus ticket.
Speaker 2: That's the Yeah, that's the those conditions that they're living under.
Speaker 1: To go back to the woman on that prison bus
Speaker 1: at the very end, and men making the decisions and
Speaker 1: making the rules even in the moment can't smell talk
Speaker 1: about talk about the payoff to the repeated motif from
Speaker 1: the very beginning about these women failing to light a cigarette,
Speaker 1: wanting to have a cigarette, and how many sequences, Adam,
Speaker 1: do they start to light one for some reason or
Speaker 1: ask for one and it's it's failed.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they no matches whatever.
Speaker 1: I don't think I don't think anyone gets to have
Speaker 1: a cigarette in the point until this sequence where this
Speaker 1: woman who has been picked up. We understand she was
Speaker 1: on the street and a man picked her up, that
Speaker 1: she's a sex worker, and the man is let go.
Speaker 1: She gets arrested. She's on this prison bus with, as
Speaker 1: you said, a couple other men, and she tries to
Speaker 1: light a cigarette and is told no smoking on here.
Speaker 1: What happens later a little bit later, the one or
Speaker 1: two of the other men on the bus they light
Speaker 1: their cigarette, and so suddenly they're smoking, and we cut
Speaker 1: back to this woman and she looks and I forget
Speaker 1: exactly how it happens, but basically the point is she
Speaker 1: either lights her own again. She tries again and figures, well,
Speaker 1: if they're doing it now, I can do it. And
Speaker 1: she's allowed to. But it's the first cigarette in the
Speaker 1: film that's actually lit, is not until the men have
Speaker 1: done it first for themselves, which just speaks to your
Speaker 1: point about, you know, decisions being completely out of your control,
Speaker 1: even something as personal as that is that they all.
Speaker 2: Do. We go ahead and talk about the end, acknowledging
Speaker 2: that we have to we have to say that this
Speaker 2: is heavy spoilers or are there other things you want to
Speaker 2: talk about.
Speaker 1: I do want to build on your note about imprisonment
Speaker 1: and the visual nature of this, because I noticed fairly
Speaker 1: early on that there is so much jail imagery or
Speaker 1: just bars on the screen, and you were already touching
Speaker 1: on one when you talked about narjest circling at the
Speaker 1: bus station, and she does. It's that lower level, so
Speaker 1: they're floor to ceiling windows, but each pane of window
Speaker 1: is separated by a vertical black bar, and as she's circling,
Speaker 1: which you described, the movement makes those they almost come
Speaker 1: quicker than they would if she was just walking looking slowly,
Speaker 1: and they definitely to me had the feeling of jail bars.
Speaker 1: You can see there's another just shot again Panaki using
Speaker 1: the streets so well, of Nargetes crouching against a wall,
Speaker 1: and the wall is next to a gated door, and
Speaker 1: of course there are bars on that, but just maybe
Speaker 1: they waited for the light to be right. But the
Speaker 1: bars are also casting a shadow onto the ground in
Speaker 1: front of her, reminding her as we learn that her
Speaker 1: and the other two women she's with they snuck out
Speaker 1: of prison that morning, and so it's still haunting her
Speaker 1: even though she's escaped. And then just one more I
Speaker 1: really liked. Pari goes to talk to a friend who
Speaker 1: works at a movie theater in the ticket booth and
Speaker 1: she's allowed inside. Panahi keeps the camera outside the ticket booth,
Speaker 1: frames their faces in the window where you pay for
Speaker 1: your tickets, which of course has bars as well, so
Speaker 1: that idea of imprisonment is also very much built into
Speaker 1: the composition.
Speaker 2: Choices of locales imprisonment or barriers to entry, right, they're
Speaker 2: either stuck or they can't get in. That is the
Speaker 2: point that is just the accepted or well it is unfortunately,
Speaker 2: it's the accepted part of existence. They really have no
Speaker 2: choice in this case, these women.
Speaker 3: Unfortunately.
Speaker 2: That is something that Panahi really very vividly depicts in
Speaker 2: this film. People listening who may be thinking, Okay, I
Speaker 2: want to see this movie before especially they spoil the
Speaker 2: ending of the film. There there isn't with this movie
Speaker 2: exactly a case where we could spoil the plot of
Speaker 2: the movie or a big reveal. But as we're talking
Speaker 2: about the formal conceit and how important it is, I didn't,
Speaker 2: as I alluded to expect that it would have the
Speaker 2: total payoff that it does at the end, the devastating
Speaker 2: payoff that it does. So if you want it shouldn't
Speaker 2: be surprising because it's Panahi, and especially after something like
Speaker 2: the ending of it was just an accident A.
Speaker 3: Year or two ago.
Speaker 2: Of course he would give us something like this, but
Speaker 2: I wasn't anticipating it. If you don't want to hear
Speaker 2: us talk about it, you do want to watch this movie.
Speaker 2: This was the one movie. Another reason why we considered
Speaker 2: not putting it in the marathon was that we couldn't
Speaker 2: find it. It didn't seem to be available on DVD,
Speaker 2: couldn't get it at the at the library, no streaming
Speaker 2: or VOD platforms had it. And a listener wrote in,
Speaker 2: and maybe as we're talking I can look it up
Speaker 2: just to make sure we give him credit and said, well,
Speaker 2: you know, the whole thing is legal or illegal. The
Speaker 2: whole thing is English subtitled on YouTube, and it is.
Speaker 2: And if you go to our marathons page, we have
Speaker 2: a link to it, or you can just go to
Speaker 2: YouTube and type in the circle Panahi and it will
Speaker 2: come up, and it's ninety minutes long. And we're obviously
Speaker 2: encouraging you to watch it. So have we done our
Speaker 2: due diligence, Josh and setting up the ending and spoil
Speaker 2: as we talk about it. Could you have ever anticipated
Speaker 2: the gut punch that we get at the end of
Speaker 2: this film?
Speaker 1: I mean, I think if we if I tried to
Speaker 1: plot it out and realize the structure he'd been using
Speaker 1: and thought more deeply about the title, I might you
Speaker 1: can see how we get there, right, but it still
Speaker 1: did take me by surprise. There is a reference at
Speaker 1: one point to one of the women to take me
Speaker 1: to the circle in the taxi car. So so I
Speaker 1: had already understood, like this must be, you know, a
Speaker 1: neighborhood or maybe a traffic area that she's referring to.
Speaker 1: Maybe that's all the title is pulling from. But yeah,
Speaker 1: to bring us again following that arrested sex worker played
Speaker 1: by Emojgan Faramarzi, who brings a very refreshing attitude like
Speaker 1: she's she's the one who who kind of pushes back
Speaker 1: the most. I think, well, that's not true. Actually, I
Speaker 1: would say one of the one goes to chase down
Speaker 1: the men who are being rude. She also Pari. I
Speaker 1: think it's Pari. Yeah, she also has some things to say,
Speaker 1: but at any rate, to know that we're going to
Speaker 1: follow her after being arrested into a holding cell where
Speaker 1: we're going to meet again, reacquaint some of the other
Speaker 1: women we've already met and see contradicting what we were
Speaker 1: saying earlier what I was saying earlier about we don't
Speaker 1: know what's going to happen to them. Now we do
Speaker 1: see what is happening to a couple of them, and
Speaker 1: it's it's as bad as we could have feared, and
Speaker 1: it's possibly even worse. I want to ask you a
Speaker 1: question about a tiny detail in this ending, but first, yes,
Speaker 1: say it, how it affected you and what you made
Speaker 1: of it.
Speaker 2: Well, we get the visual motif of the circle with
Speaker 2: the camera right that is now going around the room.
Speaker 2: It's identifying that we're seeing the women and that they
Speaker 2: the previous women that we have followed, and that they
Speaker 2: have ended up here. But to then on top of
Speaker 2: that that, honestly, Josh, you know, this is where I
Speaker 2: go back to something like it was just an accident.
Speaker 3: I believe.
Speaker 2: I even said the ending we got was already more
Speaker 2: than sufficient, and then he gives us something after it
Speaker 2: that just makes it even more special. And this is
Speaker 2: even more, especially heart wrenching. But in this case, the
Speaker 2: ending is great. And then the added element here is
Speaker 2: to have the symmetry of opening the film. We've come
Speaker 2: full circle. Of course, the film has come full circle.
Speaker 2: To have the visual symmetry of the movie opening on
Speaker 2: the opening of that food door, or I'm calling it
Speaker 2: again the food door, because that's what it is in
Speaker 2: a jail cell. But that sliding, that sliding little door
Speaker 2: within the hospital door. Now we're opening it. Same shot,
Speaker 2: same type of door, same type of little window. It
Speaker 2: was in a hospital door, now it's in the jail cell. There,
Speaker 2: that's enough symmetry. We've come full circle. And then to
Speaker 2: find out that the name that's being called for is
Speaker 2: the name of the woman giving birth at the beginning,
Speaker 2: the woman who gave birth to the girl who failed Josh,
Speaker 2: who failed to properly give birth to a boy as
Speaker 2: she promised that she was going to at the beginning
Speaker 2: of the film, the implication being I don't know what
Speaker 2: else to read into it other than something obviously has
Speaker 2: so spiraled sense that moment, as as we understand it
Speaker 2: likely will based on how the grandmother responds, based on
Speaker 2: how the grandmother. There's a moment Josh, the first person,
Speaker 2: the grandmother, it's so hard to watch. I want to
Speaker 2: say I love it because it's something so stunning, but
Speaker 2: it's so hard to watch. The first person the grandmother
Speaker 2: runs into whoever it is she knows the reality.
Speaker 3: She knows it.
Speaker 2: She's trying to process it, and I don't think she's
Speaker 2: in denial, like she knows it, but it's almost like
Speaker 2: she just doesn't want to face it. So when she
Speaker 2: meets the first person and they're like, oh, so, what's
Speaker 2: the news, and she goes, uh, no, nothing's happened yet,
Speaker 2: Like you know, she just maybe it's a little hazy
Speaker 2: on who exactly. Maybe that was the other I think
Speaker 2: that's the in law's family, and so she doesn't want
Speaker 2: to be the one to tell them.
Speaker 3: That it's not a boy.
Speaker 2: So she's just like, yeah, no news yet, and moves
Speaker 2: and moves along it. That's that's a very hard thing
Speaker 2: to watch. So to know that this is such terrible
Speaker 2: news that they have, that that family has given birth
Speaker 2: to a girl, that now that mother has somehow ended
Speaker 2: up in such a such a state that she's now imprisoned.
Speaker 2: That I mean that the entire movie, Josh, we could
Speaker 2: make an entire movie just about that woman's story.
Speaker 1: Sure, Oh, any of these women, Yeah, absolutely, which I
Speaker 1: think speaks to the richness of the of the storylines
Speaker 1: and the characterizations and the performances that any of these
Speaker 1: women could support there on movie. I think you're That
Speaker 1: was my first impression too, that the name it is
Speaker 1: exactly the same. I went back check the subtitles at
Speaker 1: the beginning against the name they call at the end.
Speaker 1: It's the same, very likely the same woman, like you said,
Speaker 1: spiraled to some point. It wouldn't take much we've learned.
Speaker 1: As you said, I think there's also a possibility that
Speaker 1: this is a bit of symbolic coincidence that Panahi is offering.
Speaker 1: You know, it could be a different woman who has
Speaker 1: the same name, But the point is the same to
Speaker 1: your observation about the door, the window that slides open.
Speaker 1: It's even if it's a different woman but who has
Speaker 1: the same name. The movie is making the same point
Speaker 1: by having the same window in a maternity ward and
Speaker 1: a prison cell.
Speaker 2: There are other hundred There are a hundred of these
Speaker 2: women in a similar position.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it goes back to, you know, my
Speaker 1: notion of the importance of having these be multiple stories.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: The production design choice here too, though, Adam. It's not
Speaker 1: just that the window is about the same size and
Speaker 1: shape and functions the same way. The walls themselves are
Speaker 1: different colors. The maternity ward is like a hospital, white
Speaker 1: but blank, like faceless. Nothing really distinguishes the window, the
Speaker 1: door that slides except it's purpose. It's all painted the same.
Speaker 1: The jail is the same way. It's green, kind of
Speaker 1: like a dark green, it seemed to me. But again
Speaker 1: all you know, like monochrome essentially, where it's the only
Speaker 1: color on that door, and there's just sort of a
Speaker 1: facelessness to that, you know, painting choice. There's there's an
Speaker 1: inhumanity to it that both places have because for women,
Speaker 1: they're experiencing the same thing essentially in both places. So
Speaker 1: the question I had for you, also in addition to
Speaker 1: the use of the name, is about the women there.
Speaker 1: I know we see nigas An Arizo, who we saw
Speaker 1: there the second to take the baton out on the
Speaker 1: block as I described, and Arizo is actually the one
Speaker 1: I was thinking of. Who's Who's kind of talks back
Speaker 1: to the men played by Mariam Parvin Almani. She has
Speaker 1: she has a real spark to her performance. Do we
Speaker 1: see the third woman who is with them on that block?
Speaker 3: And do we I don't remember for sure.
Speaker 1: I rewatched a couple of times. It's very dark in
Speaker 1: the cell. There are other women but the only faces
Speaker 1: you see clearly are Narjessa and Arizela, and so it
Speaker 1: made me wonder, is Pari there? Who is the woman
Speaker 1: who's pregnant and looking for help with that. We also
Speaker 1: spend time with a character we haven't mentioned yet, the
Speaker 1: mother of a young girl who we don't exactly get
Speaker 1: the details, but is in such a desperate situation. She's
Speaker 1: out on the street trying to essentially abandon her young daughter,
Speaker 1: hoping she'll be picked up by a wealthy family that
Speaker 1: can take care of her. I wonder if that woman
Speaker 1: is possibly in the cell as well. We can't. It's
Speaker 1: not hard to see you if there are some of
Speaker 1: them there. For sure, there are some of them, and
Speaker 1: I like that. I guess is my larger If not,
Speaker 1: I like that because if it is all of them,
Speaker 1: I feel like it would be heavy handed if the
Speaker 1: camera lingered on each face for twenty second. But there's
Speaker 1: there's a bit of naturalism against this again, this gorilla
Speaker 1: filmmaking on the street, sensibility fly on the wall that
Speaker 1: Panahi brings to the entire film. There's a naturalism there
Speaker 1: even within this Jyall cell that I think is important
Speaker 1: as opposed to deciding there to linger on their faces too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this film The Circle. We would love to hear
Speaker 2: your thoughts about it. You can email us feedback at
Speaker 2: film spotting dot net. Also, Josh, we need to officially
Speaker 2: conclude our business of this marathon like we always do,
Speaker 2: which is with our awards. We will plan to record
Speaker 2: that conversation where we give out our marathon awards, including
Speaker 2: things like best Actor or Actress, Best Supporting Actor or Actress,
Speaker 2: Best Picture. That'll be tough next week. But the first
Speaker 2: order businesses that we have to decide on what we're
Speaker 2: going to call the awards, and we also have to
Speaker 2: decide what that special topic is. What's that award that
Speaker 2: is unique to this marathon that only the Dissident Cinema
Speaker 2: Marathon could could evoke? Is it? Is it the best
Speaker 2: moment of activism, the best pushback something?
Speaker 1: That's where Yeah, that's where my mind went. I don't
Speaker 1: have something right now for a title for the awards,
Speaker 1: and listeners always have better ones anyway, So get those
Speaker 1: to us quickly, please do, because I think we're going
Speaker 1: to be doing this within a week or so. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I was thinking along the lines of dissident gesture, something
Speaker 1: that's cinematic, you know, so it it not a line
Speaker 1: of dialogue necessarily, and maybe I would probably look for
Speaker 1: something that involves the filmmaking in a especially clever, unique way.
Speaker 1: As we've been discussing the whole structure of the circle,
Speaker 1: you know, just something in the filmmaking that surprises us
Speaker 1: that can count as a dissonant gesture. All of these
Speaker 1: movies are as a whole, taken as a whole, but
Speaker 1: maybe there's like just a little moment or a touch
Speaker 1: or a filmmaking choice that feels particularly like it's trying
Speaker 1: to push back against these forces that the movies are depicting.
Speaker 2: I'm on board if you have a pick for dissident gesture,
Speaker 2: if you've been doing your homework and playing along as
Speaker 2: part of this marathon, or if you have an alternate suggestion,
Speaker 2: if you have a suggestion for a name for these awards,
Speaker 2: or if you have any comments at all about our
Speaker 2: conversation regarding the circle. We'd love to hear all of
Speaker 2: it feedback at filmspotting dot net.
Speaker 1: We're about to start another week here, Adam, so we
Speaker 1: want to remind folks about what's coming up in the
Speaker 1: film Spotting feed Monday, we will have another episode of
Speaker 1: the Movie Racket with Michael Phillips his guest this time.
Speaker 1: This is going to be so great. At least Dana Stevens,
Speaker 1: regular guest on Film Spotting regular live guests. She's done,
Speaker 1: you know, a number of live shows. I think my
Speaker 1: first live show I ever did was with Dana and
Speaker 1: Michael and you. Yes, So this will be really cool
Speaker 1: to hear them together on the Movie Racket that is Monday.
Speaker 1: On Tuesday, Film Spotting SVU will have some Spider Man
Speaker 1: Brand New Day related streaming recommendations, of course, along with
Speaker 1: some thoughts on the new film. You know you want
Speaker 1: those thoughts from Matt Singer, your friendly neighborhood Spider Man expert. Thursday,
Speaker 1: the Next Picture Show, they have part one of a
Speaker 1: new pairing, the Anthony Bourdain biopic Tony and Pixar's Ratitudey.
Speaker 1: I mean, come on, you gotta listen to that. See
Speaker 1: what they make of the new film, which is which
Speaker 1: is pretty good, I'll say, and Ratitude is pretty great.
Speaker 1: So they'll dig into some fascinating connections. On the Next
Speaker 1: Picture Show Friday, we're back Adam with one of our
Speaker 1: most anticipated movies of the year, Jane Shoon Bruns teenage
Speaker 1: sex and death at Camp Miasma, and also some thoughts
Speaker 1: on the Cold War drama The Brink of War for
Speaker 1: Film Spotting, I'm Josh Larson.
Speaker 2: And I met him Kempinar. Thanks for listening. This conversation
Speaker 2: can serve no purpose anymore.
Speaker 3: Good Bye,