WEBVTT - Oh Goat, You Devil - Part 2 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.360 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 0:00:05.480 --> 0:00:15.160 Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 0:00:15.280 --> 0:00:17.959 My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and 0:00:18.000 --> 0:00:21.079 we're back with part two of our series on the Goat. 0:00:21.600 --> 0:00:25.760 That's right, it's Halloween season and for some reason, all 0:00:25.800 --> 0:00:29.200 of our Halloween episodes so far have been livestock based. 0:00:29.720 --> 0:00:32.240 And this is part two of our look at the goat, 0:00:32.680 --> 0:00:36.000 a creature that in reality is uh, you know, pretty 0:00:36.040 --> 0:00:39.800 pretty pretty gentle. Uh, nothing too weird about the goat 0:00:39.840 --> 0:00:42.440 for the most part, nothing to ferry us, certainly, but 0:00:42.880 --> 0:00:46.839 within the larger traditions of mythology and folklore, various other 0:00:46.920 --> 0:00:49.680 connotations take over and kind of spin out of control 0:00:49.800 --> 0:00:55.640 until you have ultimately demonic goats, uh, half goat, half 0:00:55.760 --> 0:00:59.880 human hybrids that may not have the best intentions at her. 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:04.560 And then also even a few, you know, cinematic incarnations, 0:01:04.640 --> 0:01:08.600 horror movie incarnations of the goat. We mentioned the Witch 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:10.959 in the first episode, of course, and Joe and I 0:01:10.959 --> 0:01:13.039 were trying to off Mike. We're trying to think of 0:01:13.080 --> 0:01:18.199 other spooky goats in films, or even two spooky goat 0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:22.399 people in films, and there aren't maybe a ton of them, 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:25.120 Like there are more way more killer cat movies and 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:28.560 certainly killer dog movies than there are killer goat movies. Well, 0:01:28.600 --> 0:01:31.920 it depends on if you include goat headed demons. That 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:35.840 then that massively expands the range. And as we were discussing, 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:40.040 there is one Italian horror movie that has a really 0:01:40.080 --> 0:01:42.680 glorious goat costume that you only see for a couple 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:46.600 of seconds. But it's in the church yesday. That's film. 0:01:46.680 --> 0:01:48.600 It's been a while since I've seen it, but it 0:01:48.680 --> 0:01:52.559 was produced by Dario Argento and a few others and 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:55.440 is it's quite an interesting film, kind of a lower 0:01:55.480 --> 0:01:59.320 budget occult film that was perhaps partially inspired by the 0:01:59.400 --> 0:02:01.000 Name of the Road. Was like, what if the Name 0:02:01.000 --> 0:02:04.400 of the Rose um had one of the actors from 0:02:04.440 --> 0:02:06.560 the Name of the Rose but then also a demonic 0:02:06.600 --> 0:02:10.560 goatman roman about okay, yeah, And of course The Devil 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:13.360 Rides Out, which we discussed on Weirdout Cinema earlier in 0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:15.080 the year, that has a great goat man in it 0:02:15.160 --> 0:02:18.000 as well, but they're not a wonderful big old goat 0:02:18.000 --> 0:02:20.480 boy at a party. Uh yeah, probably one of the 0:02:20.720 --> 0:02:23.639 better ones committed to the screen, but you don't see 0:02:23.680 --> 0:02:26.440 them a lot. Um. I think I've mentioned before, I 0:02:26.440 --> 0:02:31.840 think the first cinematic vision of like goat obsessed Cultists 0:02:32.520 --> 0:02:37.480 was the movie adaptation of dragnet Um. This was that, 0:02:37.520 --> 0:02:41.640 I think a seven film. Dan Ackroyd heavily involved in that. 0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:44.360 I think Christopher Plummer is in it as well and 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:46.360 plays one of the cultists, and so there's you know, 0:02:46.400 --> 0:02:50.480 they're scenes of some sort of Hollywood black mass thing 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:54.760 going on, and people wearing goat leggings and goat heads 0:02:54.800 --> 0:02:56.920 and so forth. You're saying, that's the first one you 0:02:56.960 --> 0:02:59.440 remember seeing. That's the first one I remember seeing as 0:02:59.520 --> 0:03:02.040 a kid, because you know, that was I think essentially 0:03:02.040 --> 0:03:05.079 supposed to be a family movie. You though, I remember 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:07.160 there being plenty of elements in it there were maybe 0:03:07.160 --> 0:03:11.600 not so family friendly, but you know, it was the eighties. 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:14.840 Oh and Seth just uh poked in to mention, of 0:03:14.880 --> 0:03:18.440 course Pans Labyrinth Gamel del Toro's film, which does have 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:22.520 a fabulous uh pan incarnation as well as well as 0:03:22.520 --> 0:03:26.720 some other just fabulous creatures. Um. Definitely not a family 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:29.239 movie that one either. It's got some some brutal violence 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:34.360 and some very real world themes. But also a fantastic 0:03:34.760 --> 0:03:38.920 mythological world. Yeah, everybody remembers the monster with the eyes 0:03:38.920 --> 0:03:40.840 in its hands in that movie, even though pans in 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:43.960 the title. Yeah, it's it's not called Eyes and Palms 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:48.560 Labyrinth for many of you. Though, when you think cinematic 0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:52.480 goat men um imagined for an entire generation of people, 0:03:52.960 --> 0:03:55.360 there's one particular portrayal you're going to think of, and 0:03:55.360 --> 0:03:58.880 that's gonna be James McAvoy's two thousand and five portrayal 0:03:59.040 --> 0:04:01.800 of Mr tum Us in The Lion, The Witch and 0:04:01.840 --> 0:04:06.200 the Wardrobe. I never saw that adaptation. Oh well, I 0:04:06.200 --> 0:04:09.160 have a feeling. Go get around to it. Uh it's uh, 0:04:09.160 --> 0:04:12.120 it's it's it's a good one. It rewatched it recently 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:14.960 holds up pretty well. It's got some great creatures in it. 0:04:15.000 --> 0:04:18.120 And of course, in addition to James bacavoy, we have 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:22.920 a tremendous Tilda Swinton performance as the as the White Witch. 0:04:23.480 --> 0:04:26.640 So those two elements are alone alone or enough reason 0:04:26.680 --> 0:04:29.360 to check it out. Does the movie have Turkish delight 0:04:29.480 --> 0:04:32.080 in it? Oh? Of course you can't not have Turkish 0:04:32.120 --> 0:04:35.960 delight in it. So I was thinking about Mr Tumnus 0:04:36.000 --> 0:04:38.080 because we were talking about satyrs and fauns in the 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:40.320 last episode, and I realized that this is an odd, 0:04:40.360 --> 0:04:45.080 pretty obvious modern fictional presentation of particularly a fawn. In 0:04:45.120 --> 0:04:48.960 this situation. He's described as a fawn. Of course, Piers 0:04:49.000 --> 0:04:51.440 appears in C. S. Lewis's Narnia book The Lion, The 0:04:51.440 --> 0:04:55.520 Witch and the Wardrobe and various adaptations of that work. 0:04:56.040 --> 0:04:59.320 And despite all of the various connotations of the satyr 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:01.920 and the fawn and that Lewis was obviously quite aware of, 0:05:02.520 --> 0:05:06.080 Mr Tumnus is a rather compassionate figure and not at 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:09.120 all a nasty old he goat. About The worst thing 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:12.120 you can say about him is that he's technically working 0:05:12.120 --> 0:05:16.160 for the White Witch. He's technically prepared to poison one 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:19.200 of the children and then deliver her to the White Witch. 0:05:19.640 --> 0:05:21.680 But then he quickly betrays the White Witch to help 0:05:21.720 --> 0:05:25.480 the children of Earth. So while he's he's not really 0:05:25.520 --> 0:05:28.719 betrayed for the most part as a sexual being. Uh 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:32.200 Still James mcgiboy's two thousand and five portrayal UH is 0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:34.440 perhaps that has it perhaps a little bit of unintended 0:05:34.480 --> 0:05:37.000 allure to it. I think it's one of those situations 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:40.000 where even if you try and strip those elements away 0:05:40.080 --> 0:05:43.760 from the visual satyr or faun. If you then recreate 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:48.440 the faun, especially using an actual person, an actual actor, 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:53.480 you cannot help but evoke some of its symbolic essence. Lewis, 0:05:53.520 --> 0:05:56.080 by the way, also wrote a poem titled The Satyr, 0:05:56.600 --> 0:05:59.520 which also seems to dwell on the creatures more sublime 0:05:59.600 --> 0:06:03.159 quality's um. This is one that he wrote much earlier 0:06:03.320 --> 0:06:06.800 as an adolescent atheist, is pointed out by Joe R. 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:09.920 Christopher in a two thousand sixteen paper title C. S. 0:06:10.040 --> 0:06:13.160 Lewis's Two Satyrs, referring to this poem and then to 0:06:13.320 --> 0:06:16.560 Mr Tumnus, I thought, I thought I might read just 0:06:16.600 --> 0:06:18.279 a little of this poem. You can find the whole 0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:22.480 thing at all poetry dot com. But it begins like this, 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:27.560 when the flowery hands of spring forth their woodland riches, 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:31.679 fling through the meadows, through the valleys, goes the satyr 0:06:31.920 --> 0:06:36.039 caroling from the mountain, and the more forest green and 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:40.440 ocean shore, all the fairy ken he rallies making music. 0:06:40.680 --> 0:06:44.560 Ever more. See the shaggy pelf doth grow on his 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:48.880 twisted shanks below, and his dreadful feet are cloven, though 0:06:48.960 --> 0:06:51.800 his brow be white as snow, and it goes on 0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:54.080 from there. Uh. It's it's, it's it's a it's a 0:06:54.080 --> 0:06:57.640 fun little little poem. Uh. Now, Christopher's ride up is uh, 0:06:57.920 --> 0:07:00.839 I think a pretty interesting analysis, as long as you're 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:03.880 in for sort of at times a psycho sexual interpretation 0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:06.400 of a Narnia book, which I realized it's not everyone's 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:09.560 cup of tea, but um. But still I think it's 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:12.560 quite interesting. And he points out that while Mr Tumnus 0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:18.200 is largely desadiarized defontinized, if you will, there are still 0:07:18.640 --> 0:07:23.600 hints of the basic nature he is overcoming and being civilized, 0:07:23.680 --> 0:07:26.840 and so forth. Mentions of times when quote and this 0:07:26.880 --> 0:07:29.080 is from the line the Witch and the Wardrobe quote, 0:07:29.160 --> 0:07:32.600 the woods were green and old selenas on his fat 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:36.280 donkey would come to visit them, and sometimes Bacchus himself, 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:39.440 and then the streams would run with wine instead of water, 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:43.120 and the whole forest would give itself up to jollification 0:07:43.240 --> 0:07:50.800 for weeks on end jollification. Yeah. So, Christopher ultimately writes 0:07:50.840 --> 0:07:54.320 in this paper, quote, if one compares Lewis's two satyrs, 0:07:54.320 --> 0:07:56.600 one finds that both are about the split in the 0:07:56.600 --> 0:08:00.160 male human. Partly, he has led by reason, by wisdom 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:04.200 and high thoughts, by family, Moore's and philia, and partially 0:08:04.480 --> 0:08:07.640 he is driven by sexual or bestial or devilish and 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:13.160 or traitorous impulses. The satyr attracts fairy maidens by his unhappiness. 0:08:13.200 --> 0:08:15.840 Perhaps he is unhappy because women flee from him, but 0:08:15.920 --> 0:08:19.080 more likely, has suggested before, he is unhappy because he 0:08:19.120 --> 0:08:23.080 has self divided himself about his relationship to women. The 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:27.000 fon Mr Tumnus shows that a man can control his impulses, 0:08:27.080 --> 0:08:31.000 his animal or devilish side, and treat a woman well. Huh, Well, 0:08:31.200 --> 0:08:32.800 I don't know quite what to make that, because I 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:35.000 haven't read this book since I was a kid. Yeah, 0:08:35.160 --> 0:08:38.040 I I listen to the audiobook version of it in 0:08:38.200 --> 0:08:40.280 recent years, so it's a little fresher on my mind 0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:42.200 as well. But I'd love to hear it from everyone 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:43.679 out there, because I know we have a lot of 0:08:43.679 --> 0:08:44.880 There are a lot of people out there who either 0:08:44.920 --> 0:08:47.760 grew up on these books or these movies, and and 0:08:47.800 --> 0:08:49.880 maybe I thought one way about them at one point 0:08:49.880 --> 0:08:52.760 in their life and thought another way much later. But 0:08:53.000 --> 0:08:56.640 Mr Tumnus is still there, standing essentially naked in the snow. 0:08:57.040 --> 0:08:59.640 I think he's wearing a scarf. In the movie version, 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:03.679 it otherwise looks very naked, except you know, for the goat. 0:09:03.720 --> 0:09:09.600 For okay, Well, in the previous episode, we were talking 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:14.840 about the question of why the cultural association, especially stemming 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:20.120 from Christian Continental Europe, between goats and devils or between 0:09:20.400 --> 0:09:24.960 goats and wickedness. Where does this association come from, especially 0:09:24.960 --> 0:09:27.800 given that it's not universal of course, not like every 0:09:27.800 --> 0:09:31.920 culture thinks goats are evil? So what are the origin points? 0:09:32.360 --> 0:09:34.920 And I think we can possibly find some points of 0:09:35.000 --> 0:09:39.120 inspiration for this mental link link between goats and demons 0:09:39.640 --> 0:09:42.440 in the Biblical tradition itself, going all the way back 0:09:42.520 --> 0:09:46.320 to the Torah. One of the most prominent appearances of 0:09:46.360 --> 0:09:50.200 goats in the Hebrew Bible is the prescription for the 0:09:50.280 --> 0:09:54.120 day of Atonement or yam Kapoor. Yam Kapoor is the 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:56.760 holiest day of the year in Judaism. It is a 0:09:56.880 --> 0:10:01.200 day dedicated to the ritual cleansing of sin, and the 0:10:01.280 --> 0:10:05.199 ritual is described in the Book of Leviticus, chapter sixteen. 0:10:05.240 --> 0:10:09.079 As a prelude, the Lord is talking to Moses, and 0:10:09.200 --> 0:10:12.280 the Lord tells Moses that Aaron, the high priest uh 0:10:12.720 --> 0:10:15.240 he can't just come into the presence of the Ark 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:18.400 of the Covenant at any time, or God may appear 0:10:18.440 --> 0:10:20.600 in a cloud upon the cover of the Ark and 0:10:20.760 --> 0:10:24.800 kill him. And this is coming after God has already 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:27.600 struck out from the Ark and and killed people who 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:30.000 did the wrong thing with it, who may be brought 0:10:30.080 --> 0:10:33.760 strange fire before it. Instead, at an appointed time, the 0:10:33.840 --> 0:10:36.480 high priest will bathe his body and water, and will 0:10:36.520 --> 0:10:39.800 put on special holy vestments, and then he can enter 0:10:39.960 --> 0:10:42.600 into the presence of the Lord of the presence of 0:10:42.640 --> 0:10:46.600 the Ark to give offerings Uh. And then regarding the 0:10:46.640 --> 0:10:49.080 day of atonement, we're told the following. This is from 0:10:49.120 --> 0:10:52.800 the n rs V, beginning chapter sixteen, verse five. He 0:10:52.880 --> 0:10:56.520 shall take from the congregation of the Israelites two male 0:10:56.880 --> 0:11:00.960 goats for a purification offering, and one ram for a 0:11:01.040 --> 0:11:04.960 burnt offering. Aaron shall offer the bull as a purification 0:11:05.040 --> 0:11:09.040 offering for himself, and shall make atonement for himself and 0:11:09.080 --> 0:11:12.440 for his house. He shall take the two goats and 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:15.280 set them before the Lord at the entrance of the 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:19.000 tent of meeting, and Aaron shall cast lots on the 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:22.280 two goats, one lot for the Lord and the other 0:11:22.400 --> 0:11:26.880 lot for Azazel. Aaron shall present the goat on which 0:11:26.920 --> 0:11:29.319 the lot fell for the Lord and offer it as 0:11:29.320 --> 0:11:32.640 a purification offering. But the goat on which the lot 0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:36.679 fell for Azazel shall be presented alive before the Lord 0:11:37.040 --> 0:11:40.000 to make atonement over it, that it may be sent 0:11:40.080 --> 0:11:44.559 away into the wilderness to Azazel. And in the tradition 0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:48.520 of the Second Temple, as described in the Mishnah, this 0:11:48.679 --> 0:11:52.559 ritual is understood to mean that one goat is sacrifice 0:11:52.640 --> 0:11:57.400 to the Lord for purification, and the other goat becomes 0:11:57.440 --> 0:12:02.640 a scapegoat. That word scapegoat in the English language, I 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:06.240 believe comes from the William Tindale translation of the Bible. 0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:10.840 William Tindale, by the way, executed for heresy, even though 0:12:10.880 --> 0:12:13.800 he gave us most of the English translation that would 0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:17.800 end up in the King James Bible. But so that 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:20.839 that English word scapegoat, there is an attempt to translate 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:24.319 the concept of the goat for Azazel from the day 0:12:24.360 --> 0:12:27.720 of atonement. So this is a goat that is ritually 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:32.280 designated as a vessel for the sins of the Jewish people, 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:35.920 and then after being after the sins of the people 0:12:35.960 --> 0:12:38.640 are placed upon it, it is driven out into the 0:12:38.679 --> 0:12:42.520 wilderness perhaps to fall off a cliff and die. So 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:45.280 what does it mean to say that the scapegoat was 0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:49.960 for Azazel. Well, rabbis and scholars have interpreted this phrase 0:12:49.960 --> 0:12:52.240 in a number of different ways over the ages. So 0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:56.679 one interpretation is that Azazel is the name of the 0:12:56.720 --> 0:13:01.439 place to which the goat was sent, specifically maybe a rocky, 0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:06.000 desolate mountaintop or a land of impassable cliffs. Uh So, 0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:10.240 so there are different linguistic interpretations. But other commentaries have 0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:14.480 held that as Azel was a proper name, the name 0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:19.800 of a supernatural entity or power. And obviously this interpretation 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:22.880 is more relevant to what we're talking about today. In 0:13:23.040 --> 0:13:26.840 this reading, as a Zele is some kind of demon 0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:31.720 or fallen angel, a spirit of defilement and wickedness haunting 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:34.480 the desert, and the goat on which the high priest 0:13:34.600 --> 0:13:38.200 places the sins of the people is sent out for him. 0:13:38.280 --> 0:13:40.520 And so, despite the fact that in this ritual actually 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:45.240 both the Lord and this demonic figure each get one goat, 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:48.320 the scapegoat, the goat that carries the sins of the 0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:51.080 people away to meet a filthy devil in the waste land, 0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:54.160 I think might be the more salient image kind of 0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:58.440 in the same way that um, even in most early 0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:01.560 Christian literature that the into the idea of the afterlife, 0:14:01.559 --> 0:14:05.280 descriptions of hell tend to be more vivid than descriptions 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:08.000 of heaven, just because of I don't know, certain features 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:10.640 of human psychology. Yes, as well, like I guess a 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:13.959 lot of these traditions in which Hell is described to 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:18.240 those descriptions, very descriptions of Hell are kind of the 0:14:19.320 --> 0:14:22.880 oftentimes one of the only available avenues into which into 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:27.040 which you can pour your dark imagination. Um, if you 0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:29.520 want to, if you want to create paint devils and 0:14:29.560 --> 0:14:35.000 demons and grotesque hybrids. Uh, there're certain approved areas of interest, 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:38.520 generally religious or of certain later on in Western traditions, 0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:41.360 you know, the mythological realm uh In paint whatever you want, 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:44.400 as long as you're you're depicting one of these stories. 0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:46.960 It's important to a given culture, right, Yeah, you could 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:51.000 use the dark imagination for allegedly, at least the purpose 0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:54.280 of discouraging sins, saying, look, what will happen to you? Uh. 0:14:54.320 --> 0:14:56.760 Though it's interesting you could argue that that's the same 0:14:56.800 --> 0:14:59.960 principle on which exploitation movies are made. It's like, well, 0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:03.000 we have important subject matter to talk about here. This 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:06.640 is a film educating people about the dangers of of 0:15:06.720 --> 0:15:10.000 using marijuana. Uh, never mind that it's also just an 0:15:10.000 --> 0:15:13.520 excuse to show a bunch of debauchery and party scenes 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:17.200 and stuff. You know. The other thing about this scapegoat scenario, 0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:19.400 And I was thinking it kind of matches up with 0:15:19.440 --> 0:15:22.240 some stuff I was thinking about recently because I I 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:26.280 started using a new meditation practice that that I was taught, 0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:29.400 UH called It's a bitch, rather simple, it's just called 0:15:30.120 --> 0:15:33.000 uh leaves them a stream where you take a particular 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:37.800 thought and you sort of externalize yourself from that thought. 0:15:37.880 --> 0:15:41.080 You realize that you're thinking that thought, and you imagine 0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:44.680 yourself at a stream. You imagine yourself taking that thought, 0:15:45.080 --> 0:15:48.280 placing it on the leaf, and letting it float down 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:51.360 the stream away from you. And and that's all there 0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:52.800 is to it, you know. It's just it's a very 0:15:52.880 --> 0:15:57.680 simple exercise of removing yourself from a thought and then 0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:01.000 sending that thought away. Um, you know, not trying to 0:16:01.360 --> 0:16:05.160 avoid thinking that thought or avoid feeling that feeling, but 0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:08.960 acknowledging it and then letting it go. And I was 0:16:09.120 --> 0:16:11.760 and as I was after using it, and finding it 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:14.360 rather helpful. The last couple of weeks, I was thinking, well, 0:16:14.400 --> 0:16:17.800 I wonder how much of this is present in various 0:16:18.680 --> 0:16:22.440 religious practices throughout history. The idea, the simple concept of 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:27.520 like acknowledging something and then sending it away. Uh, it 0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:29.480 seems like it in may line up in some ways 0:16:29.520 --> 0:16:31.680 with this sort of practice as well. Yeah, I can 0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:34.000 totally see that. Though. Again I think it's interesting the 0:16:34.080 --> 0:16:37.320 specifics of the imagery here, which is that the the 0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:40.320 goat is being sent away for as a zel for 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:44.520 this this demon in the desert. And you could obviously 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:49.160 see how this standard tradition of yam Kapur could later 0:16:49.200 --> 0:16:53.080 give rise to a mental association between goats and the 0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:55.760 creatures of hell, because the goat is being sent out 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:58.120 to meet this this devil. Yeah, what does he do 0:16:58.160 --> 0:17:00.520 with these goats? Does he? Did they just hang out 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:03.880 with him? Did they morph into strange goat creatures? Does 0:17:03.920 --> 0:17:06.880 he eat them? Either way, it would make you maybe 0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:09.720 think twice about seeing a feral goat in the wild, 0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:12.560 which is something to think about. I mean, even though 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:15.280 these are domesticated species, you'll end up with feral goats 0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:17.520 out there, and I can imagine there might be something 0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:21.640 kind of haunting about a feral domestic species that you encounter. 0:17:21.800 --> 0:17:24.440 It's kind of like a ghost town or a haunted house. 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:27.480 Oh yeah, absolutely. And I also want to be clear 0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:32.199 that the overall format of the scapegoat ritual is not 0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:35.840 unique to Jewish tradition. The scapegoat rituals of various kinds 0:17:35.840 --> 0:17:38.480 are used in a number of ancient cultures, in many 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:42.479 instances not involving goats. For example, ancient Greece, I think, 0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:48.679 especially like like Athens and Ionia, would sometimes banish human 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:52.199 scapegoats to appease the gods and avoid some kind of 0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:55.800 bad fates, such as in the festival of thar Galia, 0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:59.199 which was a festival of Apollo, where it said that 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:02.320 often sort of a couple like a man and a 0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:06.680 woman who were despised in some way, or who were 0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:10.640 considered physically ugly or for some reason we're not wanted 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:13.560 by the people, would be selected and then they would 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:16.520 be paraded around the town and they would be whipped 0:18:16.560 --> 0:18:20.399 with with branches, like branches of trees or pieces of 0:18:20.480 --> 0:18:23.159 vegetation that I think was supposed to symbolize a kind 0:18:23.200 --> 0:18:28.119 of transference of of guilt or or impurity of some 0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:31.280 kind from the people onto the couple, and then they 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:35.399 would be banished outside of the city, exiled, presumably to 0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:38.720 die outside in the wilderness. Well, we're not we're not 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:43.240 advising anyone try that out. What that that doesn't doesn't 0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:46.400 just doesn't sound helpful to anybody. Uh No, I yeah, 0:18:46.400 --> 0:18:49.760 I think our gailea we can we can safely put 0:18:49.800 --> 0:19:01.440 to rest. Okay, I've got another biblical association between goats 0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:06.280 and sin or evil or impurity. This one comes from 0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:09.320 the New Testament. This comes from Christian traditions. Some people 0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:12.600 will probably be familiar with the story of the sheep 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:15.960 and the goats in the New Testament. One passage to 0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:18.760 zero in on here is in the Gospel of Matthew, 0:19:18.920 --> 0:19:22.959 chapter five, and for context, this is part of the 0:19:23.040 --> 0:19:27.440 so called olivet Discourse, which is a discourse in which 0:19:27.520 --> 0:19:30.400 Jesus is giving a bunch of teachings that are full 0:19:30.440 --> 0:19:34.200 of apocalyptic statements about what is going to happen when 0:19:34.200 --> 0:19:36.720 the Son of Man comes. And these appearing all three 0:19:36.760 --> 0:19:41.480 of the Synoptic Gospels, Mark, Luke, and Matthew. And they've 0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:44.400 got different kinds of predictions. You know, there might be 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:49.040 like earthquakes and disasters and uh and the destruction of 0:19:49.200 --> 0:19:52.200 the temple and so forth. But one of the things 0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:55.520 described happening when the Son of Man comes in glory, 0:19:55.680 --> 0:19:59.399 begins in Matthew chapter five, verse thirty one, And to 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:02.080 quote from the in RSV, it reads, when the Son 0:20:02.160 --> 0:20:05.639 of Man comes in glory and all the angels with him, 0:20:05.760 --> 0:20:08.360 then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:11.639 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he 0:20:11.720 --> 0:20:16.560 will separate people one from another, as a shepherd separates 0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:19.199 the sheep from the goats, and he will put the 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:22.199 sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. 0:20:22.680 --> 0:20:26.439 I definitely remember growing up hearing this in church, and 0:20:26.600 --> 0:20:28.560 I mean on one level, it's like, okay, he's separating 0:20:28.560 --> 0:20:31.840 people like good from bad. But I never really understood 0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:35.760 like the sheep goat duality aspect of this. I'm I'm 0:20:35.800 --> 0:20:37.439 kind of like, well, a sheep and a goat. I mean, 0:20:37.480 --> 0:20:40.520 I've been around both of them at petting zoos, and 0:20:40.600 --> 0:20:43.600 it's not like one is grosser than the other or anything, 0:20:43.800 --> 0:20:46.840 or that one sweeter than the other. They're both domesticated 0:20:46.880 --> 0:20:49.720 farm animals, and just one the goat has a lot 0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:53.640 more personality than the sheep. In my opinion, I remember 0:20:53.680 --> 0:20:55.920 being confused to It's actually one of a number of 0:20:56.760 --> 0:21:01.600 uh comparisons or parables or stories in the New Testament 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:04.200 that kind of don't make sense if you're not familiar 0:21:04.280 --> 0:21:07.359 with like an ancient agricultural context. Like tons of these 0:21:08.080 --> 0:21:10.960 stories are about agriculture, and like, I don't know what 0:21:11.359 --> 0:21:13.800 reaping and sewing are and stuff when I'm a little kid. 0:21:13.800 --> 0:21:15.719 I'm not a farmer, so I like, I don't know 0:21:15.800 --> 0:21:17.960 what to think about this stuff. But a lot of 0:21:18.000 --> 0:21:20.080 it ends up just being picked up anyway, and people 0:21:20.080 --> 0:21:21.560 are like, yeah, you want to be a sheep or goat? 0:21:21.560 --> 0:21:23.200 Of course you want to be a sheep. And you 0:21:23.280 --> 0:21:24.760 might go, yeah, of course I want to be a sheep. 0:21:24.800 --> 0:21:26.560 But then again you might ask, well, is there a 0:21:26.560 --> 0:21:29.520 third option? Is there a farm animal I could be 0:21:29.560 --> 0:21:31.679 in this scenario? Well, as best I can tell, I 0:21:31.680 --> 0:21:35.160 think it is just a point of uh. The point 0:21:35.240 --> 0:21:38.720 is really about the separation. But to explain the rest 0:21:38.760 --> 0:21:41.160 of the story, So the sheep go on the right 0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:43.760 hand and the son of Man will bless them, uh, 0:21:43.800 --> 0:21:46.000 And they're gonna ask why are we being blessed? What 0:21:46.040 --> 0:21:48.199 did we do, and Jesus goes on for the to 0:21:48.240 --> 0:21:50.840 give these famous statements. He says, quote, for I was 0:21:50.920 --> 0:21:53.119 hungry and you gave me food. I was thirsty and 0:21:53.160 --> 0:21:55.520 you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger 0:21:55.560 --> 0:21:58.000 and you welcomed me. I was naked and you gave 0:21:58.040 --> 0:22:00.080 me clothing. I was sick and you took care of me. 0:22:00.320 --> 0:22:02.879 I was in prison and you visited me. And then 0:22:02.920 --> 0:22:04.840 they're gonna ask when did we do any of that? 0:22:05.080 --> 0:22:07.719 And then the Son of Man will say to them, truly, 0:22:07.760 --> 0:22:10.080 I tell you, just as you did it to one 0:22:10.080 --> 0:22:12.520 of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, 0:22:12.880 --> 0:22:15.920 you did it to me. Uh. And then we get 0:22:15.920 --> 0:22:18.920 the same answer inverted for the goats at the left hand. 0:22:18.960 --> 0:22:22.000 Why are they at his left because they didn't do 0:22:22.040 --> 0:22:24.360 any of that stuff for him? And they protest, well, 0:22:24.400 --> 0:22:28.439 they never denied him food or drink or comfort, and uh. Quote. 0:22:28.480 --> 0:22:30.639 Then he will answer them, truly, I tell you, just 0:22:30.720 --> 0:22:32.240 as you did not do it to one of the 0:22:32.320 --> 0:22:34.600 least of these, you did not do it to me. 0:22:35.359 --> 0:22:37.680 And then it says, and these will go away into 0:22:37.800 --> 0:22:42.239 eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. So in 0:22:42.240 --> 0:22:44.760 this story, the sheep are representing the righteous who will 0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:47.639 inherit the Kingdom of God, and the goats are representing 0:22:47.720 --> 0:22:52.159 the unrighteous, who must depart into destruction to be annihilated 0:22:52.200 --> 0:22:54.560 when the Son of Man comes in power. And so 0:22:54.840 --> 0:22:58.439