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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind.

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and

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Speaker 1: we're back with part two of our series on the Goat.

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Speaker 1: That's right, it's Halloween season and for some reason, all

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Speaker 1: of our Halloween episodes so far have been livestock based.

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Speaker 1: And this is part two of our look at the goat,

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Speaker 1: a creature that in reality is uh, you know, pretty

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Speaker 1: pretty pretty gentle. Uh, nothing too weird about the goat

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Speaker 1: for the most part, nothing to ferry us, certainly, but

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Speaker 1: within the larger traditions of mythology and folklore, various other

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Speaker 1: connotations take over and kind of spin out of control

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Speaker 1: until you have ultimately demonic goats, uh, half goat, half

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Speaker 1: human hybrids that may not have the best intentions at her.

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Speaker 1: And then also even a few, you know, cinematic incarnations,

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Speaker 1: horror movie incarnations of the goat. We mentioned the Witch

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Speaker 1: in the first episode, of course, and Joe and I

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Speaker 1: were trying to off Mike. We're trying to think of

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Speaker 1: other spooky goats in films, or even two spooky goat

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Speaker 1: people in films, and there aren't maybe a ton of them,

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Speaker 1: Like there are more way more killer cat movies and

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Speaker 1: certainly killer dog movies than there are killer goat movies. Well,

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Speaker 1: it depends on if you include goat headed demons. That

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Speaker 1: then that massively expands the range. And as we were discussing,

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Speaker 1: there is one Italian horror movie that has a really

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Speaker 1: glorious goat costume that you only see for a couple

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Speaker 1: of seconds. But it's in the church yesday. That's film.

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Speaker 1: It's been a while since I've seen it, but it

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Speaker 1: was produced by Dario Argento and a few others and

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Speaker 1: is it's quite an interesting film, kind of a lower

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Speaker 1: budget occult film that was perhaps partially inspired by the

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Speaker 1: Name of the Road. Was like, what if the Name

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Speaker 1: of the Rose um had one of the actors from

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Speaker 1: the Name of the Rose but then also a demonic

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Speaker 1: goatman roman about okay, yeah, And of course The Devil

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Speaker 1: Rides Out, which we discussed on Weirdout Cinema earlier in

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Speaker 1: the year, that has a great goat man in it

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Speaker 1: as well, but they're not a wonderful big old goat

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Speaker 1: boy at a party. Uh yeah, probably one of the

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Speaker 1: better ones committed to the screen, but you don't see

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Speaker 1: them a lot. Um. I think I've mentioned before, I

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Speaker 1: think the first cinematic vision of like goat obsessed Cultists

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Speaker 1: was the movie adaptation of dragnet Um. This was that,

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Speaker 1: I think a seven film. Dan Ackroyd heavily involved in that.

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Speaker 1: I think Christopher Plummer is in it as well and

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Speaker 1: plays one of the cultists, and so there's you know,

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Speaker 1: they're scenes of some sort of Hollywood black mass thing

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Speaker 1: going on, and people wearing goat leggings and goat heads

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Speaker 1: and so forth. You're saying, that's the first one you

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Speaker 1: remember seeing. That's the first one I remember seeing as

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Speaker 1: a kid, because you know, that was I think essentially

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Speaker 1: supposed to be a family movie. You though, I remember

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Speaker 1: there being plenty of elements in it there were maybe

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Speaker 1: not so family friendly, but you know, it was the eighties.

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Speaker 1: Oh and Seth just uh poked in to mention, of

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Speaker 1: course Pans Labyrinth Gamel del Toro's film, which does have

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Speaker 1: a fabulous uh pan incarnation as well as well as

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Speaker 1: some other just fabulous creatures. Um. Definitely not a family

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Speaker 1: movie that one either. It's got some some brutal violence

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Speaker 1: and some very real world themes. But also a fantastic

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Speaker 1: mythological world. Yeah, everybody remembers the monster with the eyes

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Speaker 1: in its hands in that movie, even though pans in

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Speaker 1: the title. Yeah, it's it's not called Eyes and Palms

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Speaker 1: Labyrinth for many of you. Though, when you think cinematic

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Speaker 1: goat men um imagined for an entire generation of people,

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Speaker 1: there's one particular portrayal you're going to think of, and

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Speaker 1: that's gonna be James McAvoy's two thousand and five portrayal

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Speaker 1: of Mr tum Us in The Lion, The Witch and

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Speaker 1: the Wardrobe. I never saw that adaptation. Oh well, I

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Speaker 1: have a feeling. Go get around to it. Uh it's uh,

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's a good one. It rewatched it recently

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Speaker 1: holds up pretty well. It's got some great creatures in it.

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Speaker 1: And of course, in addition to James bacavoy, we have

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Speaker 1: a tremendous Tilda Swinton performance as the as the White Witch.

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Speaker 1: So those two elements are alone alone or enough reason

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Speaker 1: to check it out. Does the movie have Turkish delight

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Speaker 1: in it? Oh? Of course you can't not have Turkish

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Speaker 1: delight in it. So I was thinking about Mr Tumnus

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Speaker 1: because we were talking about satyrs and fauns in the

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Speaker 1: last episode, and I realized that this is an odd,

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Speaker 1: pretty obvious modern fictional presentation of particularly a fawn. In

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Speaker 1: this situation. He's described as a fawn. Of course, Piers

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Speaker 1: appears in C. S. Lewis's Narnia book The Lion, The

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Speaker 1: Witch and the Wardrobe and various adaptations of that work.

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Speaker 1: And despite all of the various connotations of the satyr

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Speaker 1: and the fawn and that Lewis was obviously quite aware of,

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Speaker 1: Mr Tumnus is a rather compassionate figure and not at

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Speaker 1: all a nasty old he goat. About The worst thing

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Speaker 1: you can say about him is that he's technically working

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Speaker 1: for the White Witch. He's technically prepared to poison one

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Speaker 1: of the children and then deliver her to the White Witch.

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Speaker 1: But then he quickly betrays the White Witch to help

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Speaker 1: the children of Earth. So while he's he's not really

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Speaker 1: betrayed for the most part as a sexual being. Uh

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Speaker 1: Still James mcgiboy's two thousand and five portrayal UH is

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Speaker 1: perhaps that has it perhaps a little bit of unintended

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Speaker 1: allure to it. I think it's one of those situations

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Speaker 1: where even if you try and strip those elements away

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Speaker 1: from the visual satyr or faun. If you then recreate

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Speaker 1: the faun, especially using an actual person, an actual actor,

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Speaker 1: you cannot help but evoke some of its symbolic essence. Lewis,

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Speaker 1: by the way, also wrote a poem titled The Satyr,

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Speaker 1: which also seems to dwell on the creatures more sublime

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Speaker 1: quality's um. This is one that he wrote much earlier

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Speaker 1: as an adolescent atheist, is pointed out by Joe R.

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Speaker 1: Christopher in a two thousand sixteen paper title C. S.

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Speaker 1: Lewis's Two Satyrs, referring to this poem and then to

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Speaker 1: Mr Tumnus, I thought, I thought I might read just

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Speaker 1: a little of this poem. You can find the whole

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Speaker 1: thing at all poetry dot com. But it begins like this,

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Speaker 1: when the flowery hands of spring forth their woodland riches,

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Speaker 1: fling through the meadows, through the valleys, goes the satyr

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Speaker 1: caroling from the mountain, and the more forest green and

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Speaker 1: ocean shore, all the fairy ken he rallies making music.

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Speaker 1: Ever more. See the shaggy pelf doth grow on his

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Speaker 1: twisted shanks below, and his dreadful feet are cloven, though

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Speaker 1: his brow be white as snow, and it goes on

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Speaker 1: from there. Uh. It's it's, it's it's a it's a

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Speaker 1: fun little little poem. Uh. Now, Christopher's ride up is uh,

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Speaker 1: I think a pretty interesting analysis, as long as you're

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Speaker 1: in for sort of at times a psycho sexual interpretation

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Speaker 1: of a Narnia book, which I realized it's not everyone's

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Speaker 1: cup of tea, but um. But still I think it's

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Speaker 1: quite interesting. And he points out that while Mr Tumnus

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Speaker 1: is largely desadiarized defontinized, if you will, there are still

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Speaker 1: hints of the basic nature he is overcoming and being civilized,

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Speaker 1: and so forth. Mentions of times when quote and this

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Speaker 1: is from the line the Witch and the Wardrobe quote,

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Speaker 1: the woods were green and old selenas on his fat

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Speaker 1: donkey would come to visit them, and sometimes Bacchus himself,

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Speaker 1: and then the streams would run with wine instead of water,

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Speaker 1: and the whole forest would give itself up to jollification

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Speaker 1: for weeks on end jollification. Yeah. So, Christopher ultimately writes

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Speaker 1: in this paper, quote, if one compares Lewis's two satyrs,

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Speaker 1: one finds that both are about the split in the

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Speaker 1: male human. Partly, he has led by reason, by wisdom

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Speaker 1: and high thoughts, by family, Moore's and philia, and partially

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Speaker 1: he is driven by sexual or bestial or devilish and

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Speaker 1: or traitorous impulses. The satyr attracts fairy maidens by his unhappiness.

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Speaker 1: Perhaps he is unhappy because women flee from him, but

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Speaker 1: more likely, has suggested before, he is unhappy because he

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Speaker 1: has self divided himself about his relationship to women. The

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Speaker 1: fon Mr Tumnus shows that a man can control his impulses,

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Speaker 1: his animal or devilish side, and treat a woman well. Huh, Well,

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Speaker 1: I don't know quite what to make that, because I

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Speaker 1: haven't read this book since I was a kid. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I I listen to the audiobook version of it in

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Speaker 1: recent years, so it's a little fresher on my mind

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Speaker 1: as well. But I'd love to hear it from everyone

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Speaker 1: out there, because I know we have a lot of

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Speaker 1: There are a lot of people out there who either

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Speaker 1: grew up on these books or these movies, and and

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Speaker 1: maybe I thought one way about them at one point

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Speaker 1: in their life and thought another way much later. But

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Speaker 1: Mr Tumnus is still there, standing essentially naked in the snow.

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Speaker 1: I think he's wearing a scarf. In the movie version,

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Speaker 1: it otherwise looks very naked, except you know, for the goat.

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Speaker 1: For okay, Well, in the previous episode, we were talking

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Speaker 1: about the question of why the cultural association, especially stemming

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Speaker 1: from Christian Continental Europe, between goats and devils or between

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Speaker 1: goats and wickedness. Where does this association come from, especially

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Speaker 1: given that it's not universal of course, not like every

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Speaker 1: culture thinks goats are evil? So what are the origin points?

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Speaker 1: And I think we can possibly find some points of

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Speaker 1: inspiration for this mental link link between goats and demons

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Speaker 1: in the Biblical tradition itself, going all the way back

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Speaker 1: to the Torah. One of the most prominent appearances of

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Speaker 1: goats in the Hebrew Bible is the prescription for the

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Speaker 1: day of Atonement or yam Kapoor. Yam Kapoor is the

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Speaker 1: holiest day of the year in Judaism. It is a

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Speaker 1: day dedicated to the ritual cleansing of sin, and the

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Speaker 1: ritual is described in the Book of Leviticus, chapter sixteen.

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Speaker 1: As a prelude, the Lord is talking to Moses, and

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Speaker 1: the Lord tells Moses that Aaron, the high priest uh

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Speaker 1: he can't just come into the presence of the Ark

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Speaker 1: of the Covenant at any time, or God may appear

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Speaker 1: in a cloud upon the cover of the Ark and

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Speaker 1: kill him. And this is coming after God has already

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Speaker 1: struck out from the Ark and and killed people who

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Speaker 1: did the wrong thing with it, who may be brought

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Speaker 1: strange fire before it. Instead, at an appointed time, the

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Speaker 1: high priest will bathe his body and water, and will

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Speaker 1: put on special holy vestments, and then he can enter

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Speaker 1: into the presence of the Lord of the presence of

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Speaker 1: the Ark to give offerings Uh. And then regarding the

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Speaker 1: day of atonement, we're told the following. This is from

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Speaker 1: the n rs V, beginning chapter sixteen, verse five. He

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Speaker 1: shall take from the congregation of the Israelites two male

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Speaker 1: goats for a purification offering, and one ram for a

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Speaker 1: burnt offering. Aaron shall offer the bull as a purification

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Speaker 1: offering for himself, and shall make atonement for himself and

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Speaker 1: for his house. He shall take the two goats and

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Speaker 1: set them before the Lord at the entrance of the

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Speaker 1: tent of meeting, and Aaron shall cast lots on the

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Speaker 1: two goats, one lot for the Lord and the other

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Speaker 1: lot for Azazel. Aaron shall present the goat on which

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Speaker 1: the lot fell for the Lord and offer it as

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Speaker 1: a purification offering. But the goat on which the lot

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Speaker 1: fell for Azazel shall be presented alive before the Lord

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Speaker 1: to make atonement over it, that it may be sent

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Speaker 1: away into the wilderness to Azazel. And in the tradition

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Speaker 1: of the Second Temple, as described in the Mishnah, this

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Speaker 1: ritual is understood to mean that one goat is sacrifice

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Speaker 1: to the Lord for purification, and the other goat becomes

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Speaker 1: a scapegoat. That word scapegoat in the English language, I

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Speaker 1: believe comes from the William Tindale translation of the Bible.

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Speaker 1: William Tindale, by the way, executed for heresy, even though

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Speaker 1: he gave us most of the English translation that would

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Speaker 1: end up in the King James Bible. But so that

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Speaker 1: that English word scapegoat, there is an attempt to translate

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Speaker 1: the concept of the goat for Azazel from the day

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Speaker 1: of atonement. So this is a goat that is ritually

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Speaker 1: designated as a vessel for the sins of the Jewish people,

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Speaker 1: and then after being after the sins of the people

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Speaker 1: are placed upon it, it is driven out into the

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Speaker 1: wilderness perhaps to fall off a cliff and die. So

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Speaker 1: what does it mean to say that the scapegoat was

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Speaker 1: for Azazel. Well, rabbis and scholars have interpreted this phrase

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Speaker 1: in a number of different ways over the ages. So

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Speaker 1: one interpretation is that Azazel is the name of the

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Speaker 1: place to which the goat was sent, specifically maybe a rocky,

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Speaker 1: desolate mountaintop or a land of impassable cliffs. Uh So,

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Speaker 1: so there are different linguistic interpretations. But other commentaries have

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Speaker 1: held that as Azel was a proper name, the name

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Speaker 1: of a supernatural entity or power. And obviously this interpretation

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Speaker 1: is more relevant to what we're talking about today. In

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Speaker 1: this reading, as a Zele is some kind of demon

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Speaker 1: or fallen angel, a spirit of defilement and wickedness haunting

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Speaker 1: the desert, and the goat on which the high priest

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Speaker 1: places the sins of the people is sent out for him.

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Speaker 1: And so, despite the fact that in this ritual actually

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Speaker 1: both the Lord and this demonic figure each get one goat,

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Speaker 1: the scapegoat, the goat that carries the sins of the

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Speaker 1: people away to meet a filthy devil in the waste land,

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Speaker 1: I think might be the more salient image kind of

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Speaker 1: in the same way that um, even in most early

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Speaker 1: Christian literature that the into the idea of the afterlife,

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Speaker 1: descriptions of hell tend to be more vivid than descriptions

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Speaker 1: of heaven, just because of I don't know, certain features

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Speaker 1: of human psychology. Yes, as well, like I guess a

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Speaker 1: lot of these traditions in which Hell is described to

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Speaker 1: those descriptions, very descriptions of Hell are kind of the

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Speaker 1: oftentimes one of the only available avenues into which into

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Speaker 1: which you can pour your dark imagination. Um, if you

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Speaker 1: want to, if you want to create paint devils and

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Speaker 1: demons and grotesque hybrids. Uh, there're certain approved areas of interest,

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Speaker 1: generally religious or of certain later on in Western traditions,

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Speaker 1: you know, the mythological realm uh In paint whatever you want,

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Speaker 1: as long as you're you're depicting one of these stories.

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Speaker 1: It's important to a given culture, right, Yeah, you could

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Speaker 1: use the dark imagination for allegedly, at least the purpose

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Speaker 1: of discouraging sins, saying, look, what will happen to you? Uh.

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Speaker 1: Though it's interesting you could argue that that's the same

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Speaker 1: principle on which exploitation movies are made. It's like, well,

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Speaker 1: we have important subject matter to talk about here. This

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Speaker 1: is a film educating people about the dangers of of

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Speaker 1: using marijuana. Uh, never mind that it's also just an

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Speaker 1: excuse to show a bunch of debauchery and party scenes

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Speaker 1: and stuff. You know. The other thing about this scapegoat scenario,

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Speaker 1: And I was thinking it kind of matches up with

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Speaker 1: some stuff I was thinking about recently because I I

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Speaker 1: started using a new meditation practice that that I was taught,

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Speaker 1: UH called It's a bitch, rather simple, it's just called

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Speaker 1: uh leaves them a stream where you take a particular

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Speaker 1: thought and you sort of externalize yourself from that thought.

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Speaker 1: You realize that you're thinking that thought, and you imagine

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Speaker 1: yourself at a stream. You imagine yourself taking that thought,

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Speaker 1: placing it on the leaf, and letting it float down

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Speaker 1: the stream away from you. And and that's all there

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Speaker 1: is to it, you know. It's just it's a very

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Speaker 1: simple exercise of removing yourself from a thought and then

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Speaker 1: sending that thought away. Um, you know, not trying to

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Speaker 1: avoid thinking that thought or avoid feeling that feeling, but

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Speaker 1: acknowledging it and then letting it go. And I was

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Speaker 1: and as I was after using it, and finding it

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Speaker 1: rather helpful. The last couple of weeks, I was thinking, well,

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Speaker 1: I wonder how much of this is present in various

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Speaker 1: religious practices throughout history. The idea, the simple concept of

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Speaker 1: like acknowledging something and then sending it away. Uh, it

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Speaker 1: seems like it in may line up in some ways

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Speaker 1: with this sort of practice as well. Yeah, I can

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Speaker 1: totally see that. Though. Again I think it's interesting the

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Speaker 1: specifics of the imagery here, which is that the the

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Speaker 1: goat is being sent away for as a zel for

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Speaker 1: this this demon in the desert. And you could obviously

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Speaker 1: see how this standard tradition of yam Kapur could later

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Speaker 1: give rise to a mental association between goats and the

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Speaker 1: creatures of hell, because the goat is being sent out

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Speaker 1: to meet this this devil. Yeah, what does he do

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Speaker 1: with these goats? Does he? Did they just hang out

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Speaker 1: with him? Did they morph into strange goat creatures? Does

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Speaker 1: he eat them? Either way, it would make you maybe

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Speaker 1: think twice about seeing a feral goat in the wild,

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Speaker 1: which is something to think about. I mean, even though

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Speaker 1: these are domesticated species, you'll end up with feral goats

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Speaker 1: out there, and I can imagine there might be something

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Speaker 1: kind of haunting about a feral domestic species that you encounter.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of like a ghost town or a haunted house.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, absolutely. And I also want to be clear

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Speaker 1: that the overall format of the scapegoat ritual is not

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Speaker 1: unique to Jewish tradition. The scapegoat rituals of various kinds

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Speaker 1: are used in a number of ancient cultures, in many

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Speaker 1: instances not involving goats. For example, ancient Greece, I think,

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Speaker 1: especially like like Athens and Ionia, would sometimes banish human

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Speaker 1: scapegoats to appease the gods and avoid some kind of

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Speaker 1: bad fates, such as in the festival of thar Galia,

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Speaker 1: which was a festival of Apollo, where it said that

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Speaker 1: often sort of a couple like a man and a

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Speaker 1: woman who were despised in some way, or who were

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Speaker 1: considered physically ugly or for some reason we're not wanted

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Speaker 1: by the people, would be selected and then they would

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Speaker 1: be paraded around the town and they would be whipped

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Speaker 1: with with branches, like branches of trees or pieces of

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Speaker 1: vegetation that I think was supposed to symbolize a kind

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Speaker 1: of transference of of guilt or or impurity of some

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Speaker 1: kind from the people onto the couple, and then they

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Speaker 1: would be banished outside of the city, exiled, presumably to

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Speaker 1: die outside in the wilderness. Well, we're not we're not

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Speaker 1: advising anyone try that out. What that that doesn't doesn't

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Speaker 1: just doesn't sound helpful to anybody. Uh No, I yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think our gailea we can we can safely put

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Speaker 1: to rest. Okay, I've got another biblical association between goats

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Speaker 1: and sin or evil or impurity. This one comes from

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Speaker 1: the New Testament. This comes from Christian traditions. Some people

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Speaker 1: will probably be familiar with the story of the sheep

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Speaker 1: and the goats in the New Testament. One passage to

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Speaker 1: zero in on here is in the Gospel of Matthew,

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Speaker 1: chapter five, and for context, this is part of the

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Speaker 1: so called olivet Discourse, which is a discourse in which

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Speaker 1: Jesus is giving a bunch of teachings that are full

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Speaker 1: of apocalyptic statements about what is going to happen when

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Speaker 1: the Son of Man comes. And these appearing all three

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Speaker 1: of the Synoptic Gospels, Mark, Luke, and Matthew. And they've

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Speaker 1: got different kinds of predictions. You know, there might be

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Speaker 1: like earthquakes and disasters and uh and the destruction of

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Speaker 1: the temple and so forth. But one of the things

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Speaker 1: described happening when the Son of Man comes in glory,

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Speaker 1: begins in Matthew chapter five, verse thirty one, And to

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Speaker 1: quote from the in RSV, it reads, when the Son

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Speaker 1: of Man comes in glory and all the angels with him,

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Speaker 1: then he will sit on the throne of his glory.

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Speaker 1: All the nations will be gathered before him, and he

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Speaker 1: will separate people one from another, as a shepherd separates

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Speaker 1: the sheep from the goats, and he will put the

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Speaker 1: sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left.

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Speaker 1: I definitely remember growing up hearing this in church, and

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Speaker 1: I mean on one level, it's like, okay, he's separating

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Speaker 1: people like good from bad. But I never really understood

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Speaker 1: like the sheep goat duality aspect of this. I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: kind of like, well, a sheep and a goat. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I've been around both of them at petting zoos, and

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Speaker 1: it's not like one is grosser than the other or anything,

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Speaker 1: or that one sweeter than the other. They're both domesticated

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Speaker 1: farm animals, and just one the goat has a lot

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Speaker 1: more personality than the sheep. In my opinion, I remember

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Speaker 1: being confused to It's actually one of a number of

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Speaker 1: uh comparisons or parables or stories in the New Testament

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Speaker 1: that kind of don't make sense if you're not familiar

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Speaker 1: with like an ancient agricultural context. Like tons of these

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Speaker 1: stories are about agriculture, and like, I don't know what

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Speaker 1: reaping and sewing are and stuff when I'm a little kid.

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Speaker 1: I'm not a farmer, so I like, I don't know

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Speaker 1: what to think about this stuff. But a lot of

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Speaker 1: it ends up just being picked up anyway, and people

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Speaker 1: are like, yeah, you want to be a sheep or goat?

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Speaker 1: Of course you want to be a sheep. And you

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Speaker 1: might go, yeah, of course I want to be a sheep.

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Speaker 1: But then again you might ask, well, is there a

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Speaker 1: third option? Is there a farm animal I could be

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Speaker 1: in this scenario? Well, as best I can tell, I

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Speaker 1: think it is just a point of uh. The point

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Speaker 1: is really about the separation. But to explain the rest

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Speaker 1: of the story, So the sheep go on the right

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Speaker 1: hand and the son of Man will bless them, uh,

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Speaker 1: And they're gonna ask why are we being blessed? What

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Speaker 1: did we do, and Jesus goes on for the to

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Speaker 1: give these famous statements. He says, quote, for I was

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Speaker 1: hungry and you gave me food. I was thirsty and

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Speaker 1: you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger

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Speaker 1: and you welcomed me. I was naked and you gave

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Speaker 1: me clothing. I was sick and you took care of me.

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Speaker 1: I was in prison and you visited me. And then

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Speaker 1: they're gonna ask when did we do any of that?

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Speaker 1: And then the Son of Man will say to them, truly,

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Speaker 1: I tell you, just as you did it to one

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Speaker 1: of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine,

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Speaker 1: you did it to me. Uh. And then we get

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Speaker 1: the same answer inverted for the goats at the left hand.

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Speaker 1: Why are they at his left because they didn't do

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Speaker 1: any of that stuff for him? And they protest, well,

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Speaker 1: they never denied him food or drink or comfort, and uh. Quote.

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Speaker 1: Then he will answer them, truly, I tell you, just

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Speaker 1: as you did not do it to one of the

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Speaker 1: least of these, you did not do it to me.

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Speaker 1: And then it says, and these will go away into

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Speaker 1: eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. So in

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Speaker 1: this story, the sheep are representing the righteous who will

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Speaker 1: inherit the Kingdom of God, and the goats are representing

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Speaker 1: the unrighteous, who must depart into destruction to be annihilated

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Speaker 1: when the Son of Man comes in power. And so

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Speaker 1: I was thinking, why goats here? I didn't find an

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Speaker 1: answer to this that I found super authoritatively convincing. I

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Speaker 1: read one like evangelical theological blog post that had an

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Speaker 1: interesting idea. I don't know how valid this was, but

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Speaker 1: at least it suggested that when you're maintaining mixed herds

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Speaker 1: of goats and sheep, which I do think was actually

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Speaker 1: common in the Levant at this time, goats reproduce faster

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Speaker 1: than sheep, so herdsman would have to regularly call young

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Speaker 1: male goats to maintain the correct balance of their flocks.

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Speaker 1: And if they didn't regularly call the young male goats,

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Speaker 1: the goats would reproduce faster and they would take over

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Speaker 1: there would be too many of them in the flock.

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Speaker 1: M M okay, well that that that's that seems to

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Speaker 1: match up with some of what we were talking about

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Speaker 1: in the last episode about the sex life of the goat.

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Speaker 1: But I would say the question of like, what is

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Speaker 1: the underlying agricultural reasoning about the goats and the sheep.

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Speaker 1: Here that may be true, but I don't know. I'm

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Speaker 1: still interested in this. I feel like there's got to

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Speaker 1: be a good answer out there I just haven't found yet. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is certainly if we have any people with with

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Speaker 1: hurting experience or vaster hurting, acknowledge right in and let

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Speaker 1: us know what that was a good reason to separate

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Speaker 1: the goats from the sheep. Now, at this point, I

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Speaker 1: thought we might get into some other examples of folklore

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Speaker 1: of the goat and the he goat, and perhaps some

427
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:22,360
Speaker 1: more religious traditions and mythological traditions of the goat. Uh.

428
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 1: Some of these are going to match up and be

429
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,000
Speaker 1: more in line with some of the demonic goat ideas

430
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,320
Speaker 1: that we've discussed thus far. Some are going to go

431
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,400
Speaker 1: in an entirely different direction. We're gonna get a little

432
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:38,200
Speaker 1: bit into essentially divine goats at times. Uh. One example

433
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:40,679
Speaker 1: that came up in my research, this is from an

434
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,360
Speaker 1: eighteenth century folklore is by the name of John Brand.

435
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,840
Speaker 1: Brand wrote, quote, there is a popular superstition relative to goats.

436
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 1: They are supposed never to be seen for twenty four

437
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,400
Speaker 1: hours together, and that once in that space they pay

438
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 1: a visit to the devil in order to have their

439
00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 1: beards combed. This is common both in England and Scotland.

440
00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:05,920
Speaker 1: What I don't think I even understand what that's claiming? What?

441
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 1: What is it? How did you understand the never seen

442
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:13,480
Speaker 1: for twenty four hours together? This I took to to

443
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 1: be about this sort of the nature of the goat,

444
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 1: Like the goat is gonna get around, it's gonna explore,

445
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,160
Speaker 1: it's gonna climb a little bit, it's gonna poke around

446
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 1: and see what's are available to eat. And therefore I'm

447
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,240
Speaker 1: imagining a herdsman might maybe have a little more of

448
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 1: a time keeping track of the goats and it'd be like, well,

449
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 1: I think one's missing, and then you find them and

450
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 1: they're like, okay, now we have all the goats. I

451
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 1: wonder where that goat went. It's probably just the other

452
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 1: side of the hill or was poking around under something.

453
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,359
Speaker 1: But what if it was visiting the devil? And what

454
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,120
Speaker 1: would a goat? I feel like there's kind of this.

455
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,439
Speaker 1: This is one of those folk beliefs that maybe as

456
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 1: a little tongue in cheek, you know, like why would

457
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,639
Speaker 1: a goat actually go to the devil. What do they

458
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,879
Speaker 1: have that the devil can offer them? Well, their beards

459
00:25:54,920 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 1: need combed every now and get that nice sheen. Uh. So,

460
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 1: I don't know. I found it. I kind of more

461
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 1: amusing than illuminating. It's like when the dog just gets

462
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,160
Speaker 1: back from the groomers. It's it's the goat just comes back,

463
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,119
Speaker 1: but he's been with the devil. He looks luxurious. Yeah,

464
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 1: I guess it's something about a domesticated species that it

465
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 1: if it has a little bit of a it still

466
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 1: has some of that adventurous spirit to it. You know,

467
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,440
Speaker 1: we often have uh, supernatural ideas about what it does

468
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:24,880
Speaker 1: and where it goes and what its intentions are, such

469
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,640
Speaker 1: as with the cat. The cat is going to want

470
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:29,680
Speaker 1: to go off and do its own things. Where does

471
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:33,199
Speaker 1: the cat go? Uh? Well, what is it up to? Uh?

472
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,159
Speaker 1: That sort of thing? Now? An an interesting paper I

473
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 1: was looking at is uh paper titled a Note on

474
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:44,640
Speaker 1: Goats Defoe on Crusoe's Devil from and this is by

475
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:49,640
Speaker 1: Aaron Santisso. Uh this of course is referring to Robinson

476
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 1: Crussoe by Daniel Dafoe. Robinson Crusoe not a work that

477
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,639
Speaker 1: I think I've ever read um, but I've certainly I

478
00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:00,639
Speaker 1: think seen various film or even cartoon at duptations of

479
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:02,879
Speaker 1: it over the years. Maybe I read it in school,

480
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 1: but it's been a very long time. I think when

481
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:08,720
Speaker 1: I was a kid, I had a children's abridged an

482
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 1: adapted version of it, which is weird to think about.

483
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 1: I think that may have been how I encountered it

484
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:18,360
Speaker 1: as well, But uh, this is still an interesting paper

485
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,679
Speaker 1: to to read. I didn't know they were I did

486
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,679
Speaker 1: not remember there being any goats in it, but but

487
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,639
Speaker 1: that seems to be the case. The author here writes

488
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 1: that by the eighteenth century, old goat and goat foot

489
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,399
Speaker 1: were popular euphemisms for Satan, and the devil was said

490
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,119
Speaker 1: to take the form of a goat, and the image

491
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 1: of Satan was often depicted as that of a robed

492
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,479
Speaker 1: goat headed man. That kind of became the staple image.

493
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 1: But apparently yeah, to explain the title of the work,

494
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 1: there is a bit in Robinson Crusoe where he encounters goats,

495
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 1: and at the same time, Daniel Duffoe wrote an entire

496
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 1: book on the perceived presence of Satan and global affairs.

497
00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 1: The political history of the devil from se Funny with

498
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,879
Speaker 1: that title, that could be either a really interesting book

499
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:09,920
Speaker 1: of historical scholarship or that could be a wild conspiracy tract. Yeah,

500
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 1: it's another work I've not I've not read. I only

501
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:16,239
Speaker 1: have just a a brief brief summaries understanding of it.

502
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:20,160
Speaker 1: But um, at any rate, I thought it was worth mentioning. Uh,

503
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 1: real quick. A couple of goat man type creatures that

504
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,879
Speaker 1: seems related in some guise to the satyrs and the

505
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:31,399
Speaker 1: fonds that pop up in the encyclopedias of Carol Rose.

506
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 1: There's the Bachman. This is a goatman of German folklore,

507
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 1: used as a nursery bogey to keep kids away from

508
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 1: the forest, so don't go near the forest and the

509
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 1: bachman might get you. And of course, in imagining a

510
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,239
Speaker 1: Germatic goatman, we of course can't help but think of

511
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 1: the Crampus creatures as well. Oh yeah, I was gonna,

512
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 1: I was gonna bring up cramp Us. But also as

513
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 1: a brief refresher on on the idea of a nursery bogey,

514
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 1: this was an idea we explored in our series on

515
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,719
Speaker 1: Jinny Green Teeth from a few October's back, which is

516
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 1: a a famous nursery bogie. I think the concept of

517
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 1: a nursery bogie is a monster that is specifically designed

518
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 1: to warn children away from some type of dangerous behavior. Yeah,

519
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 1: and we actually mentioned nursery boggies in the last episode, uh,

520
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 1: talking about Goya, Goya, You're talking about Goya and the

521
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 1: one bit bit about the you know, watch out for

522
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:25,239
Speaker 1: the Boogeyman. It was both a It was a kind

523
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 1: of a takedown of of parents engaging and supernatural ideas

524
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 1: to scare obedience into their children and at the same

525
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 1: time like preparing them for adulthood full of supernatural beliefs.

526
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 1: Another creature that Rose mentions is the Buka knock, which

527
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 1: is described She describes as a quote a vast, menacing goat,

528
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 1: and it's said to terrify travelers on lonely irish roads

529
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 1: at night, which I think is interesting and makes me

530
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 1: think of of the experience even today of encountering either

531
00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 1: a feral goat or a wandering goat on the roadside

532
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 1: and seeing it illuminated in your headlights. Obviously wouldn't be

533
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 1: the same situation on lonely irish roads in in olden times,

534
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 1: but still, perhaps if you had some sort of a lantern,

535
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 1: and your your lantern light caught the eyes of the

536
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 1: goat just right, might be a bit creepy. Now sticking

537
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 1: to the British Isles for a minute, I came across

538
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 1: an interesting goat related creature known as the Glystig or

539
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 1: the Green Maiden, a malevolent fairy from Scottish Gaelic mythology.

540
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 1: According to the Oxford Reference Encyclopedia, this monster sometimes appears

541
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 1: as a beautiful woman, but other times as a half woman,

542
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 1: half goat, and she seduces a male victim, brings him,

543
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 1: lures him to her hideaway near a secluded pool, and

544
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 1: then when they are alone, she slashes his throat and

545
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 1: drinks all his blood. And I thought this was interesting

546
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 1: because it echoes the idea of goats as sort of

547
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 1: a sexual danger in some way, except usually it's like

548
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 1: the idea of a of a of a lusty higo

549
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 1: to that is that kind of mythological threat. Here, instead,

550
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 1: it is a an evil fairywoman who seduces male victims.

551
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 1: Interesting though it's also noted that in other variations, the

552
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 1: glystick is not dangerous and is a helpful creature who

553
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 1: protects children and the elderly. That's an interesting one. Yeah,

554
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 1: I hadn't heard of that one. Now, in Norse tradition,

555
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 1: we have a pair of giant goats that are rather famous.

556
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 1: They are tang Grishner and tan Groshner. There are two

557
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 1: giant goats that pull the chariot of Thor across the

558
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 1: skies in Norse mythology. I may have butchered their names

559
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,959
Speaker 1: a little bit, but they're Those are translated as tooth

560
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 1: nasher and tooth grinder, and these are depicted in the

561
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 1: latest Thor movie as well as screaming goats screaming like

562
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 1: the goats from the internet video. Yeah, just screaming the

563
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 1: whole time. It's pretty pretty music. There's some amusing stuff

564
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 1: in that film. Now, another creature I came across as

565
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 1: the the Yale or syne Coore is the mythical beasts

566
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 1: found in European mythology and ultimately European heraldry, described by

567
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 1: plenty of the elder. Depictions vary from goat like to

568
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 1: more of than more like an antelope, and the descriptions

569
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 1: have been linked to varying creatures from distant lands. Uh

570
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 1: So this is where we kind of get into we

571
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 1: We mentioned this in the last episode. When you're dealing

572
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 1: with either mythological creatures, folkloric creatures, or accounts of actual

573
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 1: creatures in distant lands, the translation of them may take

574
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 1: on different forms that it might end up being a

575
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 1: little more goat like, it might be more horse like.

576
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 1: In there are examples where it might take on the

577
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 1: forms of other animals. Uh. You know. It reminds me

578
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 1: too of of of Europeans going out into the world, uh,

579
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 1: and discovering new fruits and thinking, oh, what kind of

580
00:32:56,600 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 1: apple is this? Oh, we will call it the pineapple? Like,

581
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 1: what kind of strange goat is this? We will interpret

582
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 1: this idea of a new creature by using the goat

583
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 1: as a base point. Now, another creature that I read

584
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 1: about is the us lat a rog. This is a white,

585
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 1: golden horned goat in the traditions of Slovenia. And the

586
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 1: basic idea here is that this is a fabulous I

587
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 1: mean it's not only is it a big goat, almost

588
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:27,239
Speaker 1: like a ram like creature, it also has horns that

589
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 1: are gold, presumably real gold. So of course hunters want it.

590
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 1: Hunters go out, they chase it around. But this is

591
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 1: a smart creature. This is a uh, this is a

592
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 1: a savvy creature, and it may well lead you over

593
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 1: a ravine where you fall to your death. Um. The

594
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 1: creature is also known as or as translated to just

595
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 1: being called gold Horn, and it also seems to be

596
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 1: the mascot of a Slovenian beer. So if if anyone

597
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 1: out there is a fan of of international beers, or

598
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 1: if you have any uh drinker of this particular beer,

599
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 1: I would love to hear your thoughts on it. I

600
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 1: looked it up on Beer Advocate. It has a score

601
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:09,279
Speaker 1: of seventy three there, which I guess that's okay. It

602
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 1: says okay right here, okay, must be an okay beer. Rob,

603
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 1: I have had this beer? What well? I drank this

604
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 1: when I was in Slovenia. Um. Yeah, so in Slovenia.

605
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's still this way, but when

606
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 1: I was there, it seemed to me there were basically

607
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 1: two types of beer. There was Union, which is spelled

608
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 1: like the English word union, and there was Lashko and Uh.

609
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 1: I recall thinking that it seemed like the bars were

610
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 1: divided by which beer they sold. I don't know if

611
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:44,360
Speaker 1: that's really true, but it seemed that way. To me,

612
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 1: so you have like an Union bar and a Lashko bar,

613
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 1: and it's like, do you want to go to the

614
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 1: place that has Lashko or do you want to go

615
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 1: to the other place? Uh? And for whatever reason, I

616
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:56,760
Speaker 1: ended up on the Lashco side, So I was drinking those.

617
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 1: I think I only had a couple of Unions need

618
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,400
Speaker 1: never enough to fall into a ravine. That's the no.

619
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,479
Speaker 1: To be fair, I know I drank Loshko. I don't

620
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:13,240
Speaker 1: know if I if it was the slaughter rog Um variety.

621
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:15,439
Speaker 1: I think it probably was because it looks like that's

622
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 1: one of their their flagship beers, but I can't be

623
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,239
Speaker 1: positive it was. I mean, because it looks like there's

624
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 1: also like just you know, Lashko light and stuff like that.

625
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 1: But I think I had this one. I definitely had

626
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:30,880
Speaker 1: plenty of Lashko. Awesome. Well, I that's that's fabulous question answered.

627
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:32,839
Speaker 1: But then then, of course, if anyone out there has

628
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:37,319
Speaker 1: more experience with with this beer right in, let us know. Yeah,

629
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 1: I would appreciate it. Slovenian listeners. To clarify my memories,

630
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 1: are there actually Lashko bars and Union bars or is

631
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 1: that is that just all mixed up in my head?

632
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 1: Another thing about drinking in Slovenia was I remember everywhere

633
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 1: I went people would show up with wine in unlabeled

634
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,359
Speaker 1: jugs that just have these glass jugs of you because

635
00:35:57,400 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 1: you had red wine and you had white wine. And

636
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 1: it wasn't like, oh, yeah, it's this vineyard, this vintage

637
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:05,479
Speaker 1: is just to juggle wine. I don't know where it's from. Yeah.

638
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 1: And and travel. One of the many, the many things

639
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 1: that's great about traveling is of course finding out what

640
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:14,879
Speaker 1: if there's a local drinking tradition, what is it? And

641
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 1: if there is a local beer or a national beer,

642
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,319
Speaker 1: what is that. Not being a beer enthusiast, they all

643
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 1: tend to kind of taste the same to me, but

644
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:25,320
Speaker 1: there's something that's kind of kind of fun about traveling

645
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:27,719
Speaker 1: to a place and then having the national beer of

646
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 1: that particular country. I also remember in Slovenia a very

647
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 1: fruity type of liqueur called sleeve of its that I

648
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 1: think the innkeeper where I stayed would would like give

649
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 1: us in the morning. It's how you start your dead.

650
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 1: Thank thank okay, I got another goat god type figure.

651
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:58,720
Speaker 1: So in pre Christian Basque mythology of the Basque people,

652
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 1: there was a deity known as Mari uh m a

653
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 1: r i that was sort of a queen of the gods,

654
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 1: a a supreme female deity uh in the in the

655
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 1: Basque pantheon, and she would be depicted as like you know,

656
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 1: flying around and through the air in a chariot, but

657
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:23,239
Speaker 1: also sometimes as riding on a ram well. According to

658
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,839
Speaker 1: the Rutledge Dictionary of Gods and Goddesses, Devils and Demons

659
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 1: by Manford Lurker, two thousand five, one of the representatives

660
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 1: for the physical forms representing the power of the god

661
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 1: or the goddess Mari is this figure called aker Belts,

662
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 1: which means black billy goat. He he looks exactly how

663
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:48,839
Speaker 1: he sounds. He is a billy goat with a black coat.

664
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 1: And this goat spirit is thought to be a protector

665
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:58,760
Speaker 1: of people's flocks, of their livestock. Lurker writes quote people

666
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 1: who want their animals to do well turned to him

667
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 1: for help. In earlier times, a black billy goat was

668
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:07,879
Speaker 1: kept in the farm steading to protect the herd from

669
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:12,239
Speaker 1: plague and sickness. In the sixteenth and seventeen centuries, he

670
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:16,240
Speaker 1: was venerated as a god by witches and wizards sacrifices

671
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 1: were made to him, and dance formed part of the

672
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:23,240
Speaker 1: ritual in his honor. So Ocker Belts is cool. Acker Belts,

673
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:27,720
Speaker 1: we like it seems this is another example of a goat,

674
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 1: a spiritual goat creature that is not a demonic at

675
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:34,319
Speaker 1: all from what I can tell, except maybe viewed you know,

676
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:37,360
Speaker 1: through like a hostile Christian lens on the Basque mythology.

677
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,239
Speaker 1: But within the Basque mythology, it seems like, yeah, this

678
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:42,800
Speaker 1: is just a this is a good thing that protects

679
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:46,880
Speaker 1: your flocks. Yeah, I mean flock. The flocks are life. Yeah,

680
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:48,759
Speaker 1: this is this is something that it really has has

681
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 1: also been a part of of all these episodes we've

682
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 1: looked at, uh this Halloween season regarding domesticated animals. It's

683
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:58,359
Speaker 1: like these are the lifeblood of the people who raised them,

684
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 1: and so threats to those at those animals, be they

685
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 1: real threats or perceived threats or supernatural interpretations of threats. Uh,

686
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:10,399
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's it's serious business. Life and death

687
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 1: depends upon it. And this would be by no means

688
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:19,839
Speaker 1: the only mythological or spiritual goat form that is beneficent

689
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 1: in nature, that is sacred or good or holy or

690
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 1: considered so by the people who believe in it. Not

691
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 1: all of the goat based mythical creatures are are malevolent

692
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 1: wild things that want to want to destroy you. Yeah,

693
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:35,760
Speaker 1: and this brings us to the sacred goats of China,

694
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:38,279
Speaker 1: and China we have in Chinese traditions we have at

695
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 1: least one really special goat in the form of the

696
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 1: z which you might think of as a kind of unicorn.

697
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:50,319
Speaker 1: I think this is word is often translated as unicorn um.

698
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 1: Of course, if we've if we've discussed on the show

699
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 1: previously in our episodes about unicorns. Even in Western traditions,

700
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 1: there's a lot of drift regarding the unicorn. So times

701
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:04,279
Speaker 1: the unicorn is more goat like, sometimes it's more horse like,

702
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 1: and and it's often used in later in Christian traditions

703
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 1: as um as as kind of an incarnation of Jesus.

704
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 1: So so in these in many of these traditions, the

705
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:20,920
Speaker 1: unicorn is both goat like and christ like, which is

706
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:24,439
Speaker 1: in stark contrast to these demonic ideas concerning the goat.

707
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:26,880
Speaker 1: So that's something that's worth keeping in mind as we

708
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:29,600
Speaker 1: go forward, is that you don't even have to remove

709
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:33,759
Speaker 1: yourself from Christian traditions in the West to find some

710
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:36,759
Speaker 1: examples of holy goats. Now with the z she here

711
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 1: it it's essentially like a dark, shaggy goat or perhaps

712
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 1: an ox. Again, we see this kind of a drift

713
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 1: occur with any of these creatures, like is it does

714
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 1: it have the body of a goat? Does it have

715
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 1: the body of an ox? I looked at various images

716
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:55,400
Speaker 1: of statues and depictions, and some of them I included

717
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 1: a picture here of one for you, Joe, that I

718
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 1: think looks very goat like, clearly has goat like legs,

719
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 1: even its head is more fantastic. But then there's another

720
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 1: one that looks very much kind of like a bulldog

721
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 1: or like a cat. Uh So, it has a totally

722
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:11,360
Speaker 1: different morphology going on, at least to my non expert I.

723
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:15,800
Speaker 1: But these are noble, divine creatures uh so. So Again,

724
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 1: in that sense, they are more like the Western idea

725
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 1: of the unicorn. I'm gonna say, at least for these

726
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 1: two pictures you attach for me, these are good boys.

727
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:28,960
Speaker 1: These are good boys who deserves a good scratch. Now

728
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:32,240
Speaker 1: in the Chinese city of Guangzhou. Uh there is also

729
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,759
Speaker 1: the legend of the Five Goats, So This is a

730
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 1: founding myth regarding the five immortals writing to the spot

731
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:43,359
Speaker 1: of the city's founding and bringing the knowledge of rice

732
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 1: cultivation there. And when the immortals leave, according to the myth,

733
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 1: they left their goats behind, and these goats became the

734
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:54,839
Speaker 1: stones of the Dallas temple of the Five immortals there.

735
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 1: And there is also in the in the city in Guangzhou,

736
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:01,880
Speaker 1: there's a splendid statue of the five goats atop a

737
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:06,319
Speaker 1: hill in this expansive garden in the city which which

738
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 1: i've i have visited, and I actually marched to the

739
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:11,400
Speaker 1: top of this hill and got to see the statue

740
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 1: of the goats. There included a picture here for you, Joe.

741
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:15,880
Speaker 1: This is not my picture that you're looking at. There

742
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:17,799
Speaker 1: are a lot of images of this of the goat

743
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 1: statues online, but it's quite quite splendid and again at

744
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:23,920
Speaker 1: the top of this hill in this enormous park beautiful.

745
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 1: Now as a widely domesticated species, we of course find

746
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 1: goats in Indian traditions as well. Um In Hinduism, a

747
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 1: goat is the vehicle of both the fire god Agni

748
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 1: and sometimes the vehicle of the solar deity Pushan. The

749
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:43,759
Speaker 1: god Daksha has the head of a goat following his

750
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 1: insult of Shiva and subsequent execution by the order of Shiva.

751
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 1: But then Shiva shows mercy and allows Daksha to return

752
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 1: to life with the head of the first living being

753
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 1: he meets. Upon his return to life. That animal turns

754
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,400
Speaker 1: out to be a goat. So he didn't a generally

755
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:03,479
Speaker 1: have a goat head, he gets one. Okay, I see, yeah, yeah,

756
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:04,960
Speaker 1: he had a more I guess the human head, a

757
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:08,320
Speaker 1: humanoid head. But then he lost that head because he

758
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 1: earned himself beheading. But then the god shows mercy and says,

759
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:14,239
Speaker 1: all right, you can have your life back. You can

760
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 1: have your head back, but it has to be the

761
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 1: first head of the head of the first animal you

762
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:22,000
Speaker 1: see in the world. Is this is so he gets

763
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 1: to go about with the goat head. Is this interpreted

764
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:26,760
Speaker 1: as a kind of curse or humiliation in the story

765
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:30,919
Speaker 1: or or not so much? Um I'm not so sure

766
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:33,240
Speaker 1: about that, because you're getting into, I guess a deeper

767
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 1: question of how the goat perceived in in in in

768
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:41,800
Speaker 1: in India and in Hindu culture. Um. I was reading

769
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:46,400
Speaker 1: about this particular tale in Nandita Krishna's Sacred Animals of India,

770
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 1: and according to this author, the tale is often used

771
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:54,440
Speaker 1: to justify goat sacrifices, as Daksha was essentially the sacrifice

772
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 1: of Shiva um, you know, albeit with a pre goat head,

773
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:02,759
Speaker 1: and it's you know, execution and sacrifice. Trying to you know,

774
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:06,799
Speaker 1: draw parallels there. Goats are also a sacrifice to the

775
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 1: mother Goddess, according to Krishna here and sometimes to Cali

776
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:14,239
Speaker 1: as well. Man, there is so much goat lore you

777
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:18,520
Speaker 1: could have an entire Wikipedia style goat database just for

778
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 1: goat backstory, goat lore, goat mythology, Internet goat database. Yeah, yeah,

779
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 1: I can see that working. I mean, there's just a

780
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 1: lot of it. And I think it comes down to,

781
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 1: you know what we've been discussing here. It's just it

782
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:31,840
Speaker 1: has been such a part of human traditions for so long.

783
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:36,720
Speaker 1: We've spent plenty of time watching goats, comparing ourselves to goats,

784
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:39,279
Speaker 1: comparing our ways to the ways of goats, and then

785
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 1: out of that all these various fanciful ideas emerge. Those

786
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:46,759
Speaker 1: ideas kind of uh then breed with each other, and

787
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:49,960
Speaker 1: uh we are left with all these interesting traditions of

788
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 1: of the divine, that the demonic UH, and everything in between. Okay,

789
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:56,400
Speaker 1: I think we have to call it for this episode,

790
00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:59,279
Speaker 1: just for time, but we've got more goats stuff to

791
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 1: talk about, that's right. We'll be coming back in the

792
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:07,920
Speaker 1: in the next episode with discussions of Egyptian traditions. UH.

793
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:12,320
Speaker 1: We'll get into occultism a little bit, goat intelligence, wars

794
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:15,400
Speaker 1: on goats. There's a lot more to talk about, but

795
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 1: certainly in the meantime, feel free to write into us,

796
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:20,799
Speaker 1: particularly if you have experience with any of the or

797
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:23,920
Speaker 1: or background in any of the traditions that we've discussed

798
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 1: here and would like to share more about them. If

799
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 1: you have personal experience with goats, if you have lived

800
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 1: any part of your life among the goats, UH, you

801
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 1: probably have insight to share and we would love to

802
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 1: hear from you. You can catch up on all our

803
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 1: episodes and the Stuff to Blow your Mind podcast feed

804
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:44,279
Speaker 1: on Tuesdays and Thursdays, we have our core episodes. On Wednesdays,

805
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 1: we do a short form artifact or monster fact. On

806
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:49,719
Speaker 1: Monday's we do listener mail. On on on Fridays, we do

807
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:51,879
Speaker 1: Weird How Cinema. That's our time to set aside most

808
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:55,719
Speaker 1: serious concerns and just talk about a weird film like

809
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:58,520
Speaker 1: The Devil Rides Out. So if you want some more

810
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:01,800
Speaker 1: discussion of goat people, I think that that may be

811
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:06,239
Speaker 1: the only goat film we've watched. Perhaps your memories better

812
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:08,520
Speaker 1: than mine, and you can remember another goat that's popped up.

813
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 1: That's the only one come to mind, But I don't know.

814
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:13,839
Speaker 1: Our back catalog is starting to get kind of long,

815
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:17,280
Speaker 1: so we're finally reaching the point where I am forgetting

816
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:20,319
Speaker 1: which movies we've covered. Yeah, I think this week's film

817
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:22,920
Speaker 1: will be the ninety film that we have looked at

818
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 1: hum Weird House Cinema. It's been a wild ride so far,

819
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:28,759
Speaker 1: but we have miles to go before we sleep. A

820
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 1: wild goat ride in nowhere. Huge thanks as always to

821
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:39,319
Speaker 1: our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would

822
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:42,160
Speaker 1: like to get in touch with us with feedback on

823
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:45,360
Speaker 1: this episode or any other, to suggest a topic for

824
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:48,759
Speaker 1: the future, to shed some to to shed some light

825
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 1: on goats, to share personal experience about goats, if you

826
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:54,480
Speaker 1: are a goat hurd yourself, or if you just want

827
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 1: to get in touch and say hi, any of that's

828
00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 1: fair game. You can always write us at contact at

829
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:09,759
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow

830
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:12,319
Speaker 1: Your Mind is production of I heart Radio. For more

831
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:14,959
Speaker 1: podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app,

832
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listening to your favorite shows.