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Speaker 1: A warning. This episode contains depictions of violence and conversations

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Speaker 1: about suicide that may be disturbing and triggering for some listeners.

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Speaker 1: If you are struggling with suicidal thoughts, please fast forward

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Speaker 1: to the end of this episode to find out where

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Speaker 1: help is available. In May of two thousand and two,

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Speaker 1: Byron Case is convicted of killing Anastasia Whippelsfuchen. As of today,

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Speaker 1: he's been incarcerated for more than twenty three years.

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Speaker 2: People believe what is convenient for them and what feels

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Speaker 2: right to them. Blaming me for Stage's death is convenient.

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Speaker 1: What is Byron Case's truth? Who is he really? And

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Speaker 1: outside of the story he's already told? What am I

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Speaker 1: about to learn? I'm Leah Rothman. This is the Real Killer,

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Speaker 1: Episode six, The Worst Decision. Starting route to Eastern Reception

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Speaker 1: Diagnostic and Correctional Center, proceed to Gammel's Cemetery road, then

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Speaker 1: turn right. Okay, it's cold here. It's early February. I'm

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Speaker 1: in Missouri today. I'm about four hours east of Kansas City,

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Speaker 1: driving to the town of Bontaire to meet Byron Case

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Speaker 1: for the first time. How am I feeling? I feel? Okay?

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Speaker 1: I mean going to a prison is always racking. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I have a lot of questions for Byron,

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Speaker 1: and hopefully he'll answer them. His attorney, Nicole Gordon and

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Speaker 1: investigator Queen O'Brien are coming for the interview, so they

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Speaker 1: will be there. If Queen O'Brien's name sounds familiar, it's

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Speaker 1: because she was in season one of the podcast. Her father,

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Speaker 1: renowned innocence lawyer Sean O'Brien, who was in seasons one

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Speaker 1: and two, has also taken on Byron's case, along with

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Speaker 1: attorneys Nicole Gordon and Brian Russell. Much more about all

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Speaker 1: of them in a later episode. Yeah, I think I'm

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Speaker 1: just like a few miles away. I'm getting a little

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Speaker 1: bit more nervous. Now. I have been allowed four hours

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Speaker 1: with Byron, and if necessary, I can return the following

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Speaker 1: day for four more Pretty generous by in media relations standards.

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Speaker 1: All Right, I am nervous. Yeah, I was all cool

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Speaker 1: a few minutes ago, and now I'm like nervous.

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Speaker 2: You've entered the parking lot for your destination.

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Speaker 1: All right, shit, I'm here. I'm gonna park, get all

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Speaker 1: my equipment together, and then go in more later, I

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Speaker 1: go through security, put my phone, keys, and coat in

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Speaker 1: a locker. Then I'm buzzed in. A few feet away

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Speaker 1: is another security checkpoint. Then I walk down a long

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Speaker 1: hallway which leads to the outdoors. It's an outdoor heavily

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Speaker 1: fenced walkway that leads to another building. That's where the

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Speaker 1: visitors room is and where I'll be conducting Byron's interview.

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Speaker 1: Is a small room just off that. It's where they

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Speaker 1: do parole hearings via the Internet, but really it looks

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Speaker 1: like a storage room. The cinder block walls are painted

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Speaker 1: off white. There are several computer monitors on a table,

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Speaker 1: and some highchairs stacked for family visits. Byron arrives just

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Speaker 1: moments after I do. Byron's bald and has pale skin.

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Speaker 1: He's wearing gray pants and a white T shirt under

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Speaker 1: a gray zip up jacket. I thought he'd be taller

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Speaker 1: or bigger. I'm surprised by his slight build. I set

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Speaker 1: up the microphones and recorder on a table. I also

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Speaker 1: set up a video camera. I'll be posting some clips

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Speaker 1: from our interview on The Real Killer podcast on Instagram

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Speaker 1: and on TikTok at TRK podcast. Nicole and Quinn sit

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Speaker 1: on a metal bench against the wall as we're about

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Speaker 1: to get started, I ask if we can close the

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Speaker 1: door to keep out any sounds from the visitor's room,

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Speaker 1: but am told the or must stay open. I begin

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Speaker 1: the interview by asking about Byron's childhood and growing up

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Speaker 1: with his parents, Evelyn and Dale.

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Speaker 2: Oh, it's great. I loved my childhood. I had what

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Speaker 2: I've heard called a free range childhood. It was like

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Speaker 2: the house and the area around it was just free

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Speaker 2: to be explored. I would go off and just walk

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Speaker 2: through the woods near our house, and my dog would

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Speaker 2: come with me, and sometimes I'd go riding my bike. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I was content to play by myself. I preferred it.

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Speaker 2: I loved animals and had little collections of stuff. I

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Speaker 2: played the violin that I read a lot, probably more

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Speaker 2: than anything else that I did in my childhood. I

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Speaker 2: spent my time reading. I had a fantastic time, you know,

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Speaker 2: going places with my parents. We traveled a lot, both

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Speaker 2: in the States and overseas, and just having that time

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Speaker 2: with them, bonding and experiencing new things so often new cultures,

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Speaker 2: new scenery, new surroundings. My dad loved the world.

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Speaker 1: Byron is homeschooled, and he says from what he sees

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Speaker 1: of regular school kids. He prefers it that.

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Speaker 2: Way, and our yard actually abutted an elementary school. If

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Speaker 2: I was up in my treehouse, I could actually see

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Speaker 2: down into one of the playgrounds at the school, and

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Speaker 2: sometimes I'd see a fight, or I'd see just people

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Speaker 2: running around and be really loud, which I did not

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Speaker 2: care for. I've never liked loud noises. I was like,

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Speaker 2: that looks like a horrible place to be. I do

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Speaker 2: not want to be there. I really did dread the

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Speaker 2: idea I think of going to a so called regular school.

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Speaker 1: Describe your mom for me.

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Speaker 2: My mother was fantastic. She was fun. She was so

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Speaker 2: encouraging and just always willing to let me sort of

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Speaker 2: explore whatever weird interest I might have at the time.

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Speaker 1: And your mom was originally from Germany?

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Speaker 2: Yes?

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Speaker 1: Right? Did she speak German mostly in the house?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? We spoke English and German in the household periodically.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. It was probably about fifty to fifty.

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Speaker 1: Describe your dad for me.

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Speaker 2: My dad was like my mother. He was so encouraging

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Speaker 2: and caring. He was never afraid to talk openly and

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Speaker 2: to be vulnerable, and he was creative too. He liked

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Speaker 2: to write and he made pottery, mostly like clay bowls

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Speaker 2: and flower pots and things like that. But he was

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Speaker 2: definitely an outdoorsman, liked to be with nature, and just

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Speaker 2: a very peaceful guy. In some ways, I think that

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Speaker 2: my family was this sort of bubble and we just

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Speaker 2: sort of existed in our own little world. It was

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Speaker 2: like the house.

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Speaker 1: But that seemingly idyllic home life doesn't last forever.

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Speaker 2: Okay. So when I was ten, my mother and my

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Speaker 2: father called me into the back room of the house

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Speaker 2: and they set me down and they said, we're getting

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Speaker 2: a divorce, and my mother told me that my dad

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Speaker 2: was gay. I was a pretty logical kid, and so

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Speaker 2: I just kind of took it all in stride, and

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Speaker 2: I was more concerned about where my parents were going

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Speaker 2: to live what that meant for me.

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Speaker 1: And Byron's mom decides to move to Australia and Byron

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Speaker 1: goes with her there. He attends public school for the

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Speaker 1: first time.

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Speaker 2: No, I think it was cool for a minute, and

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Speaker 2: then people started maybe getting to know me a little

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Speaker 2: bit better and didn't necessarily like me or just thought

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Speaker 2: that I was, I don't know, different, and not in

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Speaker 2: a good way, you know. I was quiet I like

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Speaker 2: to read. I stayed to myself. Byron says.

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Speaker 1: After about a year, he and his mom moved back

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Speaker 1: to the States and Byron moves in with his dad

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Speaker 1: in Kansas. There, he says, he enrolls in public school

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Speaker 1: and things get worse.

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Speaker 2: I was bullied and harassed, just generally hated school. And

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Speaker 2: I would work myself up so badly, you know, might

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Speaker 2: just being like a bundle of nerves every single morning

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Speaker 2: that I would literally make myself sick. And that went

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Speaker 2: on for sixth grade and seventh grade, so about a

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Speaker 2: year and a half. And then as soon as I

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Speaker 2: had the opportunity, I moved back to Missouri with my

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Speaker 2: mother and then so that was a different school district.

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Speaker 1: It's there in the eighth grade Byron meets Anastasia and

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Speaker 1: what was your first what were some of your first

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Speaker 1: impressions of Anna Stasia?

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Speaker 2: Anastasia was very intelligent. We were in the National Academic

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Speaker 2: League together. We basically competed in academic trivia style competitions.

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Speaker 2: We were on that level first and foremost as colleagues

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Speaker 2: on the team, and then we were in a couple

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Speaker 2: of classes together. Also, she was in my science class. Oh,

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Speaker 2: and I believe we were in the same Latin class

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Speaker 2: as well, and sometimes we would sit at the same

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Speaker 2: table at lunch and just talk about whenever. She loved

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Speaker 2: to read as well, and so we had a fair

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Speaker 2: amount to relate with one another on that front, but

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Speaker 2: we weren't really close, more just casual acquaintances. I guess.

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Speaker 2: We ended up going both of us to Lincoln College

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Speaker 2: Preparatory Academy the following year, so our freshman year in

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Speaker 2: high school and had totally different classes then. So basically

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Speaker 2: never at.

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Speaker 1: Fifteen, Byron says he decides he's done with school altogether.

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Speaker 2: So I dropped out of school when I was when

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Speaker 2: I was fifteen. It was right after my freshman year,

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Speaker 2: and I immediately went and tested for my GED. I

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Speaker 2: just didn't want anything else to do with school. It

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Speaker 2: was sucking the life out of me. It was stressful.

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Speaker 2: I just wanted to I just wanted to be independent

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Speaker 2: and really have that level of autonomy that I felt

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Speaker 2: like I needed in order to, I guess, thrive, although

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Speaker 2: of course at the time I had no idea what

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Speaker 2: thriving meant.

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Speaker 1: So how did your parents feel about you dropping out?

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Speaker 2: They tried to talk me out of it. I don't

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Speaker 2: think any parent wants that for their kid, but I

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Speaker 2: suspect that part of it was a level of maybe

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Speaker 2: failure on their own parts that they may have felt

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Speaker 2: about me dropping out, Like I know that my mother

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Speaker 2: has said in the past, do you think that homeschool

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Speaker 2: was the best thing for you? And then cited that

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Speaker 2: as the reason, like, well, you ended up hating school,

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Speaker 2: so would it have been better to put you in

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Speaker 2: school and maybe let you have that experience early on

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Speaker 2: where you did you get spoiled by that? And my

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Speaker 2: answer has always been no, that school would have been

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Speaker 2: horrible for me, no matter what age I had entered

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Speaker 2: it in.

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Speaker 1: By now it's nineteen ninety five. En Byron has nothing

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Speaker 1: but time. He's spending a lot of it hanging out

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Speaker 1: at the coffeehouses in Westport.

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Speaker 2: It was just so to me cool because you had

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Speaker 2: all of these different people and all of them were creative.

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Speaker 2: There were so many students from the Kansas City Art

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Speaker 2: Institute that would go there. There were people who were homeless,

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Speaker 2: there were people who were older, just bohemians and young people.

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Speaker 2: And that was the big thing that I appreciated about it,

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Speaker 2: really was the fact that nobody gave a shit like

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Speaker 2: what you were, like if you had weird hair, or

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Speaker 2: if you had piercings, or if you were very short,

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Speaker 2: or it didn't matter. No one cared. You were there

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Speaker 2: because you loved coffee, you loved socializing, maybe you loved

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Speaker 2: chess or smoking. But the point is there was always

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Speaker 2: somebody there that you could talk to.

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Speaker 1: But even with having that outlet, Byron says, there are

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Speaker 1: some serious issues he's dealing with.

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Speaker 2: Like I said, I got into drugs, specifically cocaine. I

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Speaker 2: I was hospitalized for a little bit after a suicide attempt.

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Speaker 2: That was actually before that was after right before I

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Speaker 2: dropped out of school. Actually, you know, so that was

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Speaker 2: really just it was in some ways it was a

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Speaker 2: really dark phase of my life.

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Speaker 1: And on May fifteenth, nineteen ninety six, things get darker. Byron,

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Speaker 1: who's now seventeen, decides he wants a new computer monitor

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Speaker 1: and remembers his aunt bought a new one a few

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Speaker 1: months before. So, Byron says, after staying up all night,

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Speaker 1: he and some friends drive to his aunt's home in

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Speaker 1: rural Missouri. Byron crawls through a bathroom window that had

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Speaker 1: been left open, opens the garage. The dogs run out barking,

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Speaker 1: which alerts the neighbor, who calls the police.

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Speaker 2: We were arrested and I was charged with stealing. And

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Speaker 2: while I was in the county jail, it was just

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Speaker 2: it was horrible. You know, these people, It was like

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Speaker 2: it was like public school times five. I think it

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Speaker 2: was there for like three weeks. Afterward, the court ordered

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Speaker 2: me to take a drug treatment program of some kind,

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Speaker 2: and my dad on a really good drug counselor that

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Speaker 2: I ended up seeing, and the guy in some ways

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Speaker 2: changed my life and I actually never used again after that.

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Speaker 2: It was sort of the wake up call. It was like,

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Speaker 2: this is what this is leading to, this is what

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Speaker 2: this has taken you to the depths of so.

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Speaker 1: Because you were high when you broke into yourance home.

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Speaker 2: Oh yes, yeah, and that was like a daily thing

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Speaker 2: for me at the time. So it was yeah, I

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Speaker 2: ruined my relationship with my aunt as far as I'm concerned,

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Speaker 2: and really with the rest of the family, and not

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Speaker 2: that we were terribly close to begin with.

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Speaker 1: Byron pleads guilty and is given five years probation. It's

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Speaker 1: not long after this he meets justin Bruton.

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Speaker 2: I was by myself and I was sitting with a notebook,

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Speaker 2: writing and drinking coffee and smoking, and because that's what

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Speaker 2: I did at that point, this guy at a table

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Speaker 2: next to me, he just like turned around and asked

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Speaker 2: if he could have a sickte And so little background here.

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Speaker 2: I did not like smoking, I guess regular cigarettes, because

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Speaker 2: I'm picky like that. So I had this box of

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Speaker 2: imported cigarettes that I bought from a tobacconist down the street,

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Speaker 2: and they were like three times as much as a

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Speaker 2: pack of Marboroughs would have run me. And so I

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Speaker 2: really hated when people asked me because I'm like, you're

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Speaker 2: not going to appreciate this the way that you should.

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Speaker 2: But I gave this guy a cigarette and he snapped

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Speaker 2: it in half and set it on the table and

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Speaker 2: he said, can I get another one? And I was flabbergassed,

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Speaker 2: and I didn't know what to think. I was like, what, no, no,

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Speaker 2: what the hell? And then he proceeded to give me

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Speaker 2: this whole speech about how cigarettes are bad for me,

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Speaker 2: I shouldn't smoke, and I was like, who are you?

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Speaker 2: Like what the fuck? This is ridiculous. So we started somehow,

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Speaker 2: we started a conversation from that and found out that

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Speaker 2: this guy was he lived in the area, and he

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Speaker 2: was really into movies and obscure stuff, and I kind

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Speaker 2: of fancied myself kind of a I don't know, a cinephile,

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Speaker 2: I guess I definitely liked obscure movies, art house movies,

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Speaker 2: and here was somebody that actually knew about these things.

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Speaker 2: And so we started talking, and he had a collection

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Speaker 2: of movies at home. He said that was that I'd

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Speaker 2: probably be interested in and asked if I wanted to

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Speaker 2: come over and, you know, watch a movie sometime, and

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Speaker 2: I said, yeah, sure, that sounds great. And so that's

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Speaker 2: how our friendship started. Basically, describe Justin for me?

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Speaker 1: What was he? What was he like?

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Speaker 2: So Justin struck me as just kind of a goofy, eccentric,

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Speaker 2: sort of out of place, slightly awkward, but friends league

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Speaker 2: guy and engaging and you could talk with him and

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Speaker 2: he could relate with anybody, it seemed like. And I

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Speaker 2: kind of envied that, I think a little bit, because

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Speaker 2: you know, he he was weird, but he was sociable

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Speaker 2: and I was weird and anti social, and so I

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Speaker 2: thought that that was kind of interesting.

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Speaker 1: Justin was from Tulsa, Oklahoma, but living in Kansas City,

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Speaker 1: in a condo near the coffeehouses in Westport, which his

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Speaker 1: parents bought for him, supposedly under the condition that he

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Speaker 1: stayed in school at the University of Missouri. Does Justin

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Speaker 1: become your best friend?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely? Yeah. Like I said, Justin was so weird that

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Speaker 2: I couldn't not like him, and I really appreciated the

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Speaker 2: fact that he didn't blink an eye, you know, whatever

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Speaker 2: I said or did something that was strange or that

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Speaker 2: somebody else might not like or whatever. We were two

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Speaker 2: kind of outcasts in a way. Although I didn't realize

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Speaker 2: it at the time. I just thought of Justin as

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Speaker 2: being like a really sociable kind of guy. But in reality,

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Speaker 2: I think he was kind of fighting with whatever it

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Speaker 2: was the inside of himself that you know, wanted to

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Speaker 2: stay alone, really, and it was just a way to

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Speaker 2: overcompensate for that. Yeah, I mean we became we became

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Speaker 2: friends and talked about what I think was about the

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Speaker 2: most personal stuff that Justin could ever talk about. Oppression

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Speaker 2: and you know, and struggling with trying to live up

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Speaker 2: to your parents' expectations. His not mine. His parents were

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Speaker 2: pretty rich, his childhood was very different from mine, and

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Speaker 2: so it was just interesting to me that somebody who

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Speaker 2: came from that background could end up like he did,

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Speaker 2: where he just wanted simplicity. I don't know, it was

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Speaker 2: it was like we'd come from very different places to

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Speaker 2: sort of meet on similar ground.

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Speaker 1: When does the goth thing happen?

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Speaker 2: Because yeah, no, that's cool, you know, I don't really know.

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Speaker 2: I've actually tried to pin this down before, and it

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00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:04,600
Speaker 2: was just such a gradual evolution. I remember, I didn't

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Speaker 2: even a name for it, for sure. It sort of

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Speaker 2: came about, I would say, when I was about thirteen,

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Speaker 2: I started wearing all black. It grew like by degrees,

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Speaker 2: I guess, and then of course the question what is

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Speaker 2: God your air? Quotes there like I think any self

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Speaker 2: respecting Goth I would have denied to my dying breath

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Speaker 2: that I was in fact Goth, And yet I would

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Speaker 2: be quick to point to somebody else and go, oh,

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Speaker 2: look at them trying to be Goth? How ridiculous?

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Speaker 1: What about it attracted you?

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Speaker 2: I was without really knowing it. I was dealing with

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Speaker 2: a really intense depression for several years, and I think

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Speaker 2: part of it was driven by that, you know, just

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Speaker 2: that my mood sort of sought some kind of external

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Speaker 2: validation and like this comfort that comes with knowing that

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Speaker 2: you're not alone this, that there are other people who

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Speaker 2: feel like this, and that they express it maybe in

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Speaker 2: music or in art. Although I didn't think about it

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Speaker 2: in those terms at the time, I think that's probably

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Speaker 2: what drove me to that. As far as what it

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Speaker 2: meant to me, I don't know. I felt comfortable wearing

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Speaker 2: black clothes. I was overweight for a little while when

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Speaker 2: I was like a teen, a young teen, and I

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Speaker 2: was pretty self conscious about that. It didn't help that

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Speaker 2: my dad was into bodybuilding at the time, and would

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Speaker 2: I guess the term now is body shame me a

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Speaker 2: little bit. But he, you know, in the most loving way.

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Speaker 2: He could just saying like, hey kid, we got to

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Speaker 2: get you working out, you know. So it started with that,

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Speaker 2: this idea that like black is slimming. It just became

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Speaker 2: something that I felt really comfortable in. Was justin goth

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Speaker 2: oh no, justin So there were these gap ads that

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Speaker 2: ran for a little while around that time, where these

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Speaker 2: young twenty somethings would wear like khakis, tea shirt, black

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Speaker 2: jacket final e. I don't know what that material is,

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00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:09,000
Speaker 2: but some sort of just zip up simple jacket. That's

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Speaker 2: how Justin dressed every single day, just a T shirt

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Speaker 2: and khakis. Justin was definitely not God, and he often

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Speaker 2: made fun of me for being goth, and I would

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Speaker 2: argue that I wasn't goth, and then much hilarity would ensue.

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Speaker 1: And something else is about to ensue when in late

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety six early ninety seven, Byron runs into Anastasia

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Speaker 1: at the Westport Coffeehouse. At this point, Byron says he

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Speaker 1: hadn't seen her in about three years, since the end

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Speaker 1: of their freshman year of high school.

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Speaker 2: We've been you know, and we just started catching up.

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Speaker 2: And I was sitting there with Justin at the time,

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Speaker 2: who I think caught her eye, and so she I

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Speaker 2: invited her to sit down with us, and they did,

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Speaker 2: and she kind of hit it off with him, so

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Speaker 2: I think.

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Speaker 1: Then a few months later, Byron, Justin, and Anastasia are

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Speaker 1: hanging out at the coffeehouse when Kelly Moffatt walks in

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Speaker 1: and says hi to Justin. They had met each other

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Speaker 1: there before. Justin introduces Kelly to Byron and Anastasia and

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Speaker 1: invites her to join them. They talked for a while,

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Speaker 1: then decide to go back to Justin's to watch a movie.

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Speaker 1: Later that night, Justin suggests Byron take Kelly home.

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Speaker 2: I ended up driving her home. She lived about twenty

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Speaker 2: minutes away maybe, and so I dropped her off and

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Speaker 2: I asked for her phone number and she gave it

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Speaker 2: to me. She was eccentric, and she had kind of

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Speaker 2: a twisted sense of humor. She just seemed like this

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Speaker 2: kind of devil may care, like suburban punk rock chick,

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Speaker 2: and I thought she was really cool and so.

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Speaker 1: But Byron says, as they get to know each other,

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Speaker 1: Kelly shares a disturbing family secret time because.

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Speaker 2: She would tell me stories about you know, her dad

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Speaker 2: was an alcoholic, and then at one point he told

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Speaker 2: her if she told me that he would like that,

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00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,520
Speaker 2: he would beat her and her mother. She had shown

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00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:13,639
Speaker 2: me Bruce's pretty significant ones.

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Speaker 1: Byron says, all he knows after hearing this is that

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Speaker 1: he wants Kelly out of that abusive situation. So he

381
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Speaker 1: asks Justin if Kelly can come stay at the condom.

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Speaker 2: You know, of course, there are authorities and there are

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Speaker 2: other places that she could have gone, but you know,

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Speaker 2: to my teenage brain, that was just that was it.

385
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Speaker 2: It was just like, oh, no emergency fix it.

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00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:43,439
Speaker 1: Kelly's mom, Deborah Moffatt, tells a different story at Byron's trial.

387
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Speaker 1: She testifies that Kelly and Byron had been seeing each

388
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Speaker 1: other for a couple of months before she and Kelly's

389
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Speaker 1: dad found out about it. Deborah says once they learned

390
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Speaker 1: Byron's age, which was eighteen, they forbid Kelly, who was

391
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Speaker 1: fourteen and a just finished eighth grade, to continue seeing him.

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Speaker 1: One day, her dad finds Byron in the basement with Kelly,

393
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Speaker 1: kicks him out of the house and tells him never

394
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Speaker 1: to come back. Deborah testifies that a couple of days later,

395
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Speaker 1: Kelly runs off. They file a missing person's report with Lenexa,

396
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 1: Kansas PD. They think she's dead. Byron says, after seven days,

397
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Speaker 1: there's a knock at Justin's door and it.

398
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:30,440
Speaker 2: Was a private investigator who had been tasked with finding her,

399
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Speaker 2: and he took her and they left.

400
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 1: Some time later, Byron says he speaks with Kelly's mom

401
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 1: and dad and they eventually relent. They say that two

402
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 1: can continue dating.

403
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 2: And I was relieved, but also because Kelly said that

404
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 2: her dad, this is what she told me, was that

405
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:53,639
Speaker 2: her dad had promised never to lay a hand on

406
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:54,119
Speaker 2: her again.

407
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 1: Byron says after that he feels welcomed at Kelly's house.

408
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,440
Speaker 1: They have family dinners together, they go to the movies,

409
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 1: and down the line, he even spends Christmas with them.

410
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 2: Looking back, I can't imagine what that would have been

411
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,640
Speaker 2: like for a parent. But you know, they were making

412
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,640
Speaker 2: an effort to try and I guess just appease her.

413
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 2: But also, I mean they really came to like and

414
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:26,159
Speaker 2: trust me. I mean her mother. Her mother would send

415
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:30,160
Speaker 2: me out, like to take Kelly's twelve year old sister

416
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,160
Speaker 2: to the mall, and like loan me the car keys

417
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:36,920
Speaker 2: and the debit card so that I could you get

418
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 2: her whatever she needed. You wouldn't do that with somebody

419
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 2: that I think that you thought was just a scumbag.

420
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 1: On the witness stand, Deborah Moffett says Byron was intelligent,

421
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 1: soft spoken, very mannerly, and seemingly in love with Kelly.

422
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 1: Would you say you and Kelly were in love?

423
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 2: Yes? I felt very attached to her, and yeah, I

424
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 2: absolutely believe that was love.

425
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,680
Speaker 1: And vice versa. When I asked Byron about how Kelly

426
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 1: was only fourteen when they first started dating, he says

427
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:13,919
Speaker 1: she didn't tell him her age until three months in

428
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 1: and for Byron that should have been the end of

429
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 1: the relationship, but it wasn't. He kept seeing her. Byron

430
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 1: also says Kelly's mother later told him that her husband,

431
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:29,880
Speaker 1: Kelly's dad, was not an abuse of alcoholic, but that.

432
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 2: Was a lie apparently. Yeah, And so that was, like,

433
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 2: as far as I know, the first thing that she

434
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 2: lied to me about. And then there were so many

435
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 2: others and I couldn't even name close to them all.

436
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:46,919
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously based on how everything turned out, But

437
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 2: I think even for that time, Kelly was I think

438
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 2: the worst decision I ever made. Everything involving her, I

439
00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:05,640
Speaker 2: think was the worst decision I ever made.

440
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,479
Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety seven, there are two couples going strong,

441
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 1: Byron and Kelly, and Justin and Anastasia. Byron says, for

442
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 1: the first several months, Justin and Anastasia are like two lovebirds.

443
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:27,959
Speaker 1: They talk about marriage and moving to Europe. Then things change.

444
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it seems like to me that he

445
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 2: just kind of got bored with her. Probably well, I

446
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 2: know that he got tired of what he saw is

447
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 2: her neediness, and she was needy. She was very needy.

448
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 2: I think he was more just wanting something that was fun,

449
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 2: something that would you know that that was no work

450
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 2: at all, because he hated putting effort in anything, and

451
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 2: that includes the relationship, and so he was not willing to.

452
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 1: Do what she Byron says, Anastasia often turns him for help.

453
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 2: And then she would call me and ask, you know,

454
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 2: if I could talk to him, and I'm like, I

455
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:07,960
Speaker 2: don't know what you want from me. I can't make

456
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 2: this guy want to hang out with you. At some

457
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 2: point or other, they broke up and she was devastated

458
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 2: and she called me crying, like sloppy, messy crying, and

459
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 2: I did what I could, you know, to give her

460
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 2: that talk like this is probably for the best. You know,

461
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 2: he was starting to lose interest, and you know, and

462
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 2: he this is just how Justin is. You know, he'll

463
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 2: be interested in something.

464
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 1: Byron says, The cycle of them breaking up and getting

465
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:46,719
Speaker 1: back together is constant. So are Anastasia's calls. Talk to

466
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 1: me about your outgoing beeper message.

467
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 2: I know the one you're talking about. It got to

468
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 2: the point where Stasia called so often. I paid twenty

469
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 2: five cents per page, like this was this was not

470
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 2: a good plan, but I just wanted to be available,

471
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 2: and so I had this pager and expecting that maybe

472
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 2: like three times a week or so, I might have

473
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 2: to pay a quarter for a page, I signed up

474
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 2: for this plan. And then one day after she had

475
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 2: broken up with Justin or he had broken up with

476
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 2: her and wouldn't take her calls, Stasia like paged me

477
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 2: and I called her back, and I was at home

478
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 2: at the time, I was getting ready for work. Basically,

479
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 2: she was just like, you have to talk with him,

480
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 2: and I was like, I can't. Also, I'm on my

481
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:33,480
Speaker 2: way to work right now, so I don't really have time.

482
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 2: And she just started talking and talking and talking, and

483
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 2: I was just like, Stasia, I really have to go.

484
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 2: And then I ended up just like, look, I have

485
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 2: to go. I'm sorry, and I hung up the phone,

486
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 2: and all the way to work, and for like a

487
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 2: good portion of my shift she was calling and paging

488
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 2: me again and again and again and again and again.

489
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 2: So I turned off my pager and I dialed the

490
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 2: number to rear ord a new message, and I basically said,

491
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 2: you know, this is byrons my pager. Leave your number

492
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 2: unless this is Anastasia, in which case just stop because

493
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 2: I don't want to talk to you, and if you

494
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 2: keep this up, no one's going to want to talk

495
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 2: to you. And that was that. And then they made

496
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 2: a big deal out of that later on, saying, you

497
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 2: know what a shitty friend I was because I wouldn't,

498
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 2: you know, take her repeated pages.

499
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 1: Byron says, in the weeks leading up to the murder,

500
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 1: Justin had dropped out of school and stopped taking his prozac.

501
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 1: I asked him if anything seemed abnormal at the time

502
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 1: with Anastasia.

503
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 2: No, And that's the thing is, this was such a

504
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 2: in some ways, and I've described it this way. Before

505
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 2: a normal week from my perspective, Justin went to go

506
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 2: visit his parents. I guess he was down there for

507
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 2: the weekend. He and Stasia were. She was planning on

508
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 2: getting together with him. She wanted to, I think, try

509
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 2: and get back together. Of course I didn't know that

510
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 2: at the time, but you know, found out later on

511
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 2: that pretty much every conversation which she had with anybody

512
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 2: that she was even remotely connected with, centered around Justin

513
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 2: for like that whole week. To me, just like I said,

514
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 2: it was just more the same.

515
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 1: I then asked Byron about the afternoon of October twenty second,

516
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 1: the day Anna station was killed.

517
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 2: We were still sort of just milling around, not doing

518
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 2: much of anything at the condo. Justin got a call

519
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 2: from Stasia. And I don't remember now if they had

520
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 2: had these plans previously or if this was something that

521
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 2: like she was pushing for sort of last minute, but

522
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 2: matter of fact, now that I think about it, no,

523
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 2: they had had plans to get together that day, and

524
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 2: he basically was like, yeah, I I don't know, we'll

525
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 2: see what happens.

526
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 1: Byron says. He and Justin go to Funko Land in

527
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 1: Kansas to trade in some video games. Then they pick

528
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 1: up Kelly at her home in Lenexa.

529
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,160
Speaker 2: Then so Justin's like, well, I better, you know, we

530
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 2: got to stop and I'm going to make this phone

531
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 2: call to just tell her I'm not going to come out.

532
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 2: So we stopped at this gas station in Kansas and

533
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 2: he called it. I guess talk with Stacia's sister who

534
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 2: said that she had already left, and so Justin and

535
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 2: I guess it was just like whatever, So that sucks,

536
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 2: nothing to be done. Now, let's go play some games.

537
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 1: So you're at the Phillip sixty sixth station. Justin uses

538
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 1: the phone speaks with Francesca. Francisca says, she got a ride.

539
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 1: She's already left for Mount Washington, right right, because they

540
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 1: were did they have a plan.

541
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they yeah, had agreed to meet out there,

542
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 2: just the two of them, apparently at Mount Washington.

543
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 1: Yes, and when so, remember that's not what Kelly testified to.

544
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 1: She said at the gas station, Byron and Justin had

545
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 1: her call Anastasia to meet them at the dairy Queen. Okay,

546
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:10,720
Speaker 1: Byron says. After the gas station, Justin, Kelly and Byron

547
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 1: go back to the condo.

548
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, And while we were there, a phone call came

549
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:20,359
Speaker 2: in from Stasia, who I guess was at a dairy

550
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,799
Speaker 2: queen across the street from the cemetery where they were

551
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:28,799
Speaker 2: supposed to meet, and she, from the sound of his

552
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:32,759
Speaker 2: end of the conversation, she was not happy. And he

553
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 2: basically explained like, yeah, I tried to call Fran and

554
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 2: you know, just Or tried to call you and talked

555
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 2: with Fran and told her what was up. I tried.

556
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,319
Speaker 2: They stayed on the phone for a little while, I think,

557
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,319
Speaker 2: but he ended up. He got off the phone and

558
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:52,239
Speaker 2: he's like, we are going to have to go out

559
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:56,719
Speaker 2: to Independence, where Stagia lived and pick her up.

560
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 1: Do you remember around what time this was.

561
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:04,400
Speaker 2: It was still like, I don't know, like it was No,

562
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 2: I don't really remember.

563
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 1: Was that still light up?

564
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 2: No? No, I think it was it was getting dark

565
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,719
Speaker 2: at that point. Okay, So, or it was it was

566
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 2: like right at the end of the.

567
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 1: Day when you pick her up. What is she wearing?

568
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 1: What's Anastasia wearing?

569
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:26,400
Speaker 2: She had on I believe she had on blue jeans

570
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 2: and I think like a gray sweater.

571
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 1: Now does Byron actually remember what Anastasia was wearing that

572
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,880
Speaker 1: night or did he hear this description of her clothes

573
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 1: from dairy Queen worker Don Wright when she testified at

574
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 1: his trial. Okay, After the Dairy Queen, Byron Justin, Anastasia

575
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 1: and Kelly drive across the street to Mount Washington Cemetery,

576
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:56,359
Speaker 1: see the caretaker, then leave soon after. Byron says, they

577
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,319
Speaker 1: then make a plan to go back to the condo. Supposedly,

578
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:03,359
Speaker 1: Anastasia asks Justin why he doesn't love her anymore, and

579
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 1: Justin says he doesn't know, he just doesn't.

580
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 2: And so she opened the door to the car and

581
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 2: just slammed it and started walking the direction that we

582
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 2: had just come from. And we sat there for a minute.

583
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 2: I didn't really know what was going on, you know,

584
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:25,400
Speaker 2: and then we just started driving again. He didn't turn around,

585
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:27,719
Speaker 2: he didn't you know, he didn't get out of the

586
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 2: car try to stop. I mean, we just it was

587
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 2: as though, you know, nothing had happened, and we just

588
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 2: kind of sat in an uncomfortable silence for a little while.

589
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 1: She go and walk behind you.

590
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, she just she got out of that and the

591
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 2: passenger side door where she was sitting, she got out

592
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 2: and just walked back and I saw her, you know,

593
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,759
Speaker 2: go behind and then I actually my attention focused on

594
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:52,920
Speaker 2: justin to see what he was going to do, so

595
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 2: I didn't see which side of the street, you know,

596
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:57,359
Speaker 2: she went to or anything like that.

597
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 1: By the way, were you guys drinking that night, doing drugs?

598
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:01,319
Speaker 2: No?

599
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 1: So you drive off, you are in sort of an

600
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 1: uncomfortable silence, and to take me through what happens.

601
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:13,360
Speaker 2: Next, we drove back to the condo almost in complete silence.

602
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,399
Speaker 2: I think if anything got said, it was just very

603
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 2: small talk, very briefly, and it was just we didn't

604
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,960
Speaker 2: know what the hell to say as the bottom line, and.

605
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,760
Speaker 1: It was Byron says, on the way back to the condo,

606
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:28,400
Speaker 1: his friend Abraham pages him. Byron says, he calls him.

607
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 1: When they get back to Justin's. Abraham asks if they

608
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 1: can come by to pick up some stuff he has

609
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:36,400
Speaker 1: of his ex girlfriend Tara's, and then take a tour,

610
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 1: and would.

611
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,360
Speaker 2: You guys do with Justin's Just nothing really, because like

612
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 2: I said, I made a phone call and that was

613
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 2: pretty much it. I mean, if there was a bathroom break,

614
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 2: that was it.

615
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:49,760
Speaker 1: So did anyone change clothes?

616
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:54,880
Speaker 2: No? No, So we went over to Terror. Excuse me.

617
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:59,280
Speaker 2: Actually we went to Broms first, who was living nearby,

618
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 2: and picked up some stuff that he had to drop

619
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:04,800
Speaker 2: off for Tara, and then we only stayed there for

620
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:06,360
Speaker 2: about ten minutes or so, and then we had to

621
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 2: get Kelly home, so we drove and took Kelly back

622
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 2: to her house over in Kansas.

623
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 1: Byron says. At Kelly's, Justin calls Anastasia's house and gets

624
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:20,920
Speaker 1: her sister Fran again.

625
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 2: She kind of read him the riot act about having

626
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:27,759
Speaker 2: just let her get out of the car and not

627
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 2: trying to stop her. So he was I don't know.

628
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:34,320
Speaker 2: He got off the phone and he was just like friends,

629
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 2: not abby, So we drove from Kelly's place, we drove

630
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 2: over to Tara's dropped off whatever it was. He had

631
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 2: a bag of stuff, I think a sweater and some stuff,

632
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 2: but dropped that off at her place. Stayed and talked

633
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:54,080
Speaker 2: for a minute, but I was just ready to go

634
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:56,840
Speaker 2: home and call it a day. The evening had not

635
00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 2: been fun and I just kind of, I don't know,

636
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 2: I was, I was done. So Justin dropped me off

637
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 2: at home from there and then I said, I'll talk

638
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:08,399
Speaker 2: to you later.

639
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:10,760
Speaker 1: And that was that. When you get home, who's there?

640
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 2: My mother and her boyfriend Napoleon, if I remember, they

641
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 2: were just watching TV in the living room, and I

642
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,719
Speaker 2: just kind of came in and said hey, and you know,

643
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 2: Mom asked where I've been, what I've been doing, and

644
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, you know, I saw Justin and

645
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 2: Stasia and Kelly and it's been a night. And that

646
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 2: was pretty much, you know, the end of it. I

647
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:36,399
Speaker 2: was just I don't know, I didn't want.

648
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 1: This is news to me that Byron's mom's boyfriend Napoleon

649
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:43,720
Speaker 1: was there when he got home that night. Is this true?

650
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 1: I go back and check the trial transcripts to see

651
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 1: what Byron's mom, Evelyn said on the stand about that night.

652
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 1: She said she and Byron had quote idle chit chat

653
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,840
Speaker 1: like you hungry. You know, we're watching a movie. Do

654
00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 1: you want to join us? She says, we and us.

655
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,319
Speaker 1: I wonder if police ever spoke with Napoleon. Come to

656
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 1: think of it, I don't remember seeing any interviews done

657
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 1: with Evelyn. I'm going to have to look into this anyway,

658
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 1: Byron says. After he speaks with his mom and Napoleon,

659
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:20,400
Speaker 1: he goes to his room and gets online. Later he

660
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:24,279
Speaker 1: talks to Kelly, did you ever go back out that night? No?

661
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:25,800
Speaker 1: Where's your car?

662
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 2: My car was actually in the shop at that time.

663
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,279
Speaker 2: I had a I think a bad water pump was

664
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:36,360
Speaker 2: the problem, but it had been sitting on the mechanics

665
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 2: lot for a while. They were waiting to I don't know,

666
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 2: waiting to get time to get it in a bay

667
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 2: and look at it.

668
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 1: Byron says his car was in the shop that night.

669
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:49,840
Speaker 1: He also at one point told Sergeant Kilgore it was

670
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 1: parked at his mom's house. I wonder which is true? Okay,

671
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 1: Byron says. The next morning, his mother wakes him up

672
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:01,320
Speaker 1: to say he has a phone call. It's Justine.

673
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 2: He wanted to know if I wanted to go get breakfast,

674
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:10,400
Speaker 2: and I said, absolutely not. It is like nine thirty am,

675
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 2: and I am sleeping because I probably only got to

676
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 2: bed about three hours ago. So I'll talk to you later.

677
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,839
Speaker 2: And he that was that, he mentioned, Oh I think

678
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:22,880
Speaker 2: I asked him, Yes, I did. I asked him what

679
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:24,719
Speaker 2: he was doing awake at that hour, because that was

680
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:27,920
Speaker 2: really weird for him too. And he just said he

681
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 2: had trouble sleeping. And I was like, okay, well I'll

682
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 2: call you when I wake up and maybe we'll go

683
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:34,800
Speaker 2: get lunch or dinner or whatever.

684
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 1: To be clear, you said you had only gotten like

685
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 1: three hours of sleep. Why what were you up doing.

686
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:43,959
Speaker 2: I was just on the computer. That was just my thing.

687
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 2: It probably was more than three hours, but yeah, I

688
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 2: mean I was always up late into the night.

689
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:53,440
Speaker 1: Did Justin say anything else? Did you hear anything in

690
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 1: his voice?

691
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 2: No? And that's the thing. I mean, it was just

692
00:41:57,640 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 2: the only thing that was weird about that call was

693
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 2: just that he was awake at nine thirty am. He

694
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:08,280
Speaker 2: sounded perfectly normal and fine.

695
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 1: Byron says, he goes back to sleep. Later, he goes

696
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:16,480
Speaker 1: to a friend's house. Then around five point thirty, Abraham

697
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 1: or Brahm pages Byron and shares what he saw in

698
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 1: the news that Anastasia had been killed. Byron tells Kelly.

699
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:28,800
Speaker 1: Kelly tries calling Justin but can't get a hold of him. Eventually,

700
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 1: Byron says his mom, Evelyn, drives him and Kelly to Justin's,

701
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 1: but neither he nor his car are there.

702
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 2: And then at some point, I don't even know what

703
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,760
Speaker 2: time it was. It just kind of in some ways,

704
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:47,959
Speaker 2: I think time just kind of stopped from the moment

705
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 2: of that first phone call with Bram and then everything

706
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 2: else after that was just like one moment and then

707
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:58,680
Speaker 2: it ended, and then we just kind of broke down

708
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:03,320
Speaker 2: because it was like, Okay, one of our best friends

709
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 2: is dead, the other best friend is missing. We have

710
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:10,320
Speaker 2: no idea what the hell has happened.

711
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 1: The next day, Kelly and Byron speak with investigators. Are

712
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:19,839
Speaker 1: you at all concerned like you could be a suspect

713
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 1: since you were some of the last people who.

714
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:27,200
Speaker 2: No that was? That never entered my mind, you know,

715
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 2: I just like I said, all I wanted. My focus

716
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:33,279
Speaker 2: then was just like, Okay, so stage has gone, but

717
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 2: Justin's still out there somewhere. I just wanted to help.

718
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 2: It led to anything that was going to help them

719
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:43,759
Speaker 2: find Justin. That was really my biggest thing, I think

720
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:48,399
Speaker 2: is at that point, you know, wondering where he might

721
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:52,320
Speaker 2: have gone to and what happened after he dropped me off,

722
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 2: and then starting to connect the dots, like, well he

723
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 2: called the next day and he had trouble sleeping. Why

724
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 2: did he have trouble sleeping? What happened those you know,

725
00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 2: eleven hours or whatever since I saw him last?

726
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 1: How did you? How did you learn that Justin had

727
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:08,879
Speaker 1: taken his life?

728
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 2: You know, it's strange. I don't even remember now. I

729
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:16,359
Speaker 2: don't even remember how I got that news. I think

730
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 2: at a certain point it just turned into just a blur.

731
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 2: The whole the whole thing was just too much. I

732
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 2: you know, I had never lost anybody before, and you know,

733
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 2: so it was unprecedented emotional stuff, and I didn't know

734
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 2: how to deal with it, you know. And and Kelly,

735
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 2: for her part, you know, she was grieving and we

736
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 2: could lean on each other as far as that goes,

737
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 2: but I think, you know, she kind of No two

738
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:52,720
Speaker 2: people are the same, you know, and no two people

739
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:56,920
Speaker 2: grieve same. I do remember we went to the funerals

740
00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 2: a few days later. J Ston's was first and we

741
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:06,480
Speaker 2: traveled down to Tulsa. It was ridiculous. It was just

742
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 2: this big, opulent thing and it was not at all

743
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:16,400
Speaker 2: what he would have wanted, you know. Yeah, and then

744
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:19,719
Speaker 2: Stasia's funeral came, I think about a week and week

745
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 2: and a half later, and it was different, Like Stasia's

746
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 2: funeral was much smaller and much more intimate. When we walked.

747
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 1: Byron says he attends Anastasia's funeral with their mutual friend

748
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:38,400
Speaker 1: Anna Huntsecker.

749
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:42,960
Speaker 2: When we walked in to the funeral home, there was

750
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 2: they were playing a Susie and the Banshee song. It

751
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 2: seemed weird. I was like, wow, they're actually playing stuff

752
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 2: that she would have liked. And they played some cure.

753
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:58,920
Speaker 1: And you know, it was open casket.

754
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:04,520
Speaker 2: And I went with Anna and then I guess the

755
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:08,200
Speaker 2: last minute that she wanted to go up and say goodbye.

756
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:15,240
Speaker 2: So we walked up to the casket and we stood

757
00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:22,880
Speaker 2: there and Anna she was like, she said, she looks

758
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:29,840
Speaker 2: like a doll, doesn't even look like her, And it didn't.

759
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 2: It was so surreal and fucked up. And I know

760
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:45,440
Speaker 2: that later on I read a report and somebody else

761
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:50,439
Speaker 2: who was at the funeral was like, I guess they

762
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:55,719
Speaker 2: saw me standing up there and and even then had

763
00:46:55,800 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 2: suspicions about me and and made some comment like I

764
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 2: can't believe he's just standing there staring over And it

765
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:10,239
Speaker 2: was years later when I read that, but but I

766
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:16,080
Speaker 2: was just like, this is like, this is exactly the

767
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 2: thing that I've lived my entire life with where people

768
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:25,440
Speaker 2: just go, oh, he's weird and then just assume the worst.

769
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:31,239
Speaker 2: And I don't know, in that moment, it was just

770
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:36,719
Speaker 2: it was it was just me and Anna and our

771
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:42,200
Speaker 2: friend was gone, and we were like, this isn't even her.

772
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 2: It's like a charade, Like this whole thing is just

773
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:52,920
Speaker 2: an elaborate theatrical performance, and it didn't seem real.

774
00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:57,440
Speaker 1: Were you hearing at the coffeehouse or houses. Were you

775
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:02,040
Speaker 1: hearing some of the rumors that were circulating about what

776
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:04,359
Speaker 1: happened to Anastasia?

777
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:10,960
Speaker 2: I was not hearing them firsthand. I I kind of, well,

778
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:13,920
Speaker 2: so let me take that back. Yes, I was hearing

779
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:16,680
Speaker 2: that because even at the funeral there was so much

780
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 2: speculation about what could have happened, and so yeah, I

781
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 2: mean there were no answers. We didn't have anything to

782
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:31,400
Speaker 2: go on. It was just like Sayser's dad, gunshot to

783
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 2: the head cemetery. That was it. That was all we

784
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:36,800
Speaker 2: had to go on. And of course, you know, everything

785
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:40,040
Speaker 2: else was just myth making. I shut down as much

786
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 2: of it as I could when I was around to

787
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:47,359
Speaker 2: do so, but a lot of it involved me.

788
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 1: At this point, and this is like, I don't know,

789
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:56,759
Speaker 1: weeks after, do you have any idea, like if there

790
00:48:56,800 --> 00:49:00,360
Speaker 1: are any suspects or if anybody's been ruled out.

791
00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:00,799
Speaker 3: No.

792
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 2: When I talked with I did make a few phone

793
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:09,719
Speaker 2: calls to Sergeant Kilgore and just to see if there

794
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:12,040
Speaker 2: was anything he could tell me, same as I called

795
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:17,680
Speaker 2: Stagia's mom I think once anyway, and asked if she

796
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 2: knew anything, and I know that later actually that got

797
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:24,799
Speaker 2: twisted around too. I had asked if there was any

798
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:30,839
Speaker 2: indication that Stasia had been sexually assaulted, and she said no,

799
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:33,480
Speaker 2: But then later on she reported to the police that

800
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:37,799
Speaker 2: I told her that Stasia hadn't been sexually assaulted. I

801
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:38,440
Speaker 2: found out.

802
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:43,439
Speaker 1: Byron Is referring to Anastasia's mother, Betsy Owens. In episode two,

803
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:46,800
Speaker 1: we played part of her interview with Sergeant Kilgore, where

804
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 1: she said Byron called her and told her that Anastasia

805
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 1: had not been sexually assaulted. Betsy didn't understand why investigators

806
00:49:56,160 --> 00:49:58,400
Speaker 1: would share that information with Byron.

807
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:02,319
Speaker 2: Needless to say, we didn't have any information. They were

808
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:03,880
Speaker 2: pretty tight lived about that stuff.

809
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 1: Almost two months to the day after Anastasia and Justin's deaths,

810
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:26,000
Speaker 1: Byron experiences the loss of someone even closer to him,

811
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:26,560
Speaker 1: his dad.

812
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:31,800
Speaker 2: He had been in New York. He was, as I

813
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:35,120
Speaker 2: said earlier, he was an amateur bodybuilder, and he was

814
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:39,600
Speaker 2: competing in a competition up there. While he was there,

815
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:47,120
Speaker 2: I guess he got some cold like symptoms and didn't

816
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:49,319
Speaker 2: really think anything of it came back, and they kept

817
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:52,080
Speaker 2: getting worse, and then it got to the point that

818
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:56,279
Speaker 2: apparently he couldn't even breathe. So he finally finally decided

819
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:58,760
Speaker 2: that he would go to the hospital and see maybe

820
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:02,280
Speaker 2: if something was wrong, and they diagnosed him with pneumonia.

821
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:07,479
Speaker 2: He had been living with HIV for six or seven

822
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:10,440
Speaker 2: years at that point. I guess he contracted it almost

823
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:15,239
Speaker 2: It was really soon after my parents' divorce, and he

824
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 2: was taking medication for it, and so much medication. But

825
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:24,000
Speaker 2: I hadn't talked with him for a few days, and

826
00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:29,760
Speaker 2: then I got a call from my aunt who said

827
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:33,640
Speaker 2: he was in the hospital and that he was they

828
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:36,319
Speaker 2: had to intubate him, so he was unconscious. He had

829
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:37,360
Speaker 2: a tube down his throat.

830
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 1: When Byron, Kelly Abraham, and another friend get to the hospital.

831
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:46,440
Speaker 2: And said that he was in an isolation room and

832
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:51,960
Speaker 2: we could only see him under very limited conditions and

833
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:56,960
Speaker 2: for very short periods of time. It was weird. He

834
00:51:57,080 --> 00:52:00,080
Speaker 2: was just lying there with this machine that was breathing

835
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 2: for him in this room all by himself, and his

836
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:08,759
Speaker 2: skin was all puffy because he was retaining fluids, and

837
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:15,279
Speaker 2: it just it was it was almost like what had

838
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:19,839
Speaker 2: happened with Stasia all over because he was just there

839
00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:23,440
Speaker 2: and he wasn't moving, and it didn't look like him.

840
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:25,480
Speaker 2: He had great aeros A few.

841
00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:28,359
Speaker 1: Days later, Byron's grandmother asks him to be the one

842
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:31,480
Speaker 1: to make the decision to take his dad off life support.

843
00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:37,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think he. I think he died that night,

844
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:42,680
Speaker 2: like three am or something, one day before his fiftieth

845
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:47,560
Speaker 2: birthday Christmas Eve. I completely shut down at that point.

846
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:54,600
Speaker 2: He was an amazing guy and yeah, and he gave

847
00:52:54,640 --> 00:53:01,160
Speaker 2: me so much his birthday was Christmas Day, and so

848
00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:05,880
Speaker 2: this was on Christmas Eve, and my family asks like, oh,

849
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:09,040
Speaker 2: do you want to come to the family Christmas gathering

850
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:14,759
Speaker 2: and take his presence? And I did not, but I

851
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:19,960
Speaker 2: went and there was some there was some stuff that

852
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:24,319
Speaker 2: happened while I was there. I literally overheard someone say

853
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:27,200
Speaker 2: that I was a terrible son. Then I didn't go

854
00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:30,440
Speaker 2: and sit in the waiting room while my dad was

855
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:35,759
Speaker 2: in the hospital, as though as though that in any

856
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:39,799
Speaker 2: way mattered. I thought about that in a while. You know,

857
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:45,080
Speaker 2: people grieve in different ways, as I said, and to

858
00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:50,840
Speaker 2: criticize somebody for you know, the way that they're processing

859
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:56,640
Speaker 2: a situation is just insane to me. I mean, I've

860
00:53:56,719 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 2: said this exact same thing about you know, how my

861
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:04,480
Speaker 2: trial went, you know, and you're going to pass judgment

862
00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:08,000
Speaker 2: and say, oh, well he didn't he wasn't animated enough

863
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:11,040
Speaker 2: for oh he was too cold. If somebody wants to

864
00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:13,560
Speaker 2: blame you for Zeth, it's just there's nothing you can

865
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:14,920
Speaker 2: do about it. They're going to find a way to

866
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:18,719
Speaker 2: do it regardless. So I don't know, I don't want

867
00:54:18,719 --> 00:54:24,200
Speaker 2: to necessarily draw that parallel there, but it seems natural.

868
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 1: At the same time, This isn't the greatest place to

869
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:32,560
Speaker 1: stop the interview, but that's when I'm told our four

870
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:36,280
Speaker 1: hours are up. I return the following day to continue

871
00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:40,840
Speaker 1: the conversation. This time we're in a glass enclosed area

872
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:46,279
Speaker 1: within the visitor's room. Attorney Nicole Gordon and investigator Quinn

873
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:49,720
Speaker 1: O'Brien aren't there. They were needed back in Kansas City.

874
00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:53,760
Speaker 1: So today it's just me and Byron.

875
00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:56,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was, it was. It was a lot yesterday.

876
00:54:56,280 --> 00:54:59,080
Speaker 2: That was actually the first time that I have cried

877
00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:05,640
Speaker 2: in about twenty three years, and so it was it

878
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:09,960
Speaker 2: was a big deal. Even when I was convicted, like

879
00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:12,840
Speaker 2: sentenced and all of that, I just went numb that

880
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:14,799
Speaker 2: whole time. And so even then, like I felt like,

881
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:18,560
Speaker 2: I remember, I wanted to cry. I felt like that's

882
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:21,920
Speaker 2: what a person is supposed to do, and I just

883
00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:25,320
Speaker 2: it just was in there, but I couldn't. I couldn't

884
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:30,200
Speaker 2: muster the I don't know, I couldn't just let it out.

885
00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:34,920
Speaker 1: We then move on in the timeline. I asked what

886
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:38,120
Speaker 1: life looked like in early nineteen ninety eight, soon after

887
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:42,400
Speaker 1: Byron's dad passed away, Byron says he was bereft. He

888
00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:45,520
Speaker 1: moved into his dad's house, which was full of memories

889
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:46,520
Speaker 1: from his childhood.

890
00:55:47,280 --> 00:55:51,000
Speaker 2: And that was around the time when I needed some

891
00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:54,880
Speaker 2: I had my wisdom teeth pulled and they prescribed some

892
00:55:56,040 --> 00:56:01,719
Speaker 2: pain meds and those felt pretty okay, so or more specifically,

893
00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:06,319
Speaker 2: they helped me not feel bad. And so it wasn't

894
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:08,800
Speaker 2: even that it felt good, It was just the absence

895
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:13,040
Speaker 2: of feeling, which was a big plus, because I was

896
00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:16,560
Speaker 2: just feeling too much. So so, like I said, for

897
00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:22,399
Speaker 2: a period of a few months, I kind of, you know,

898
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:25,400
Speaker 2: I kind of fell down in that particular hole for

899
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:29,200
Speaker 2: a while. And during that time, I think that, you know,

900
00:56:29,600 --> 00:56:33,840
Speaker 2: Kelly felt that I was sort of distant, that I

901
00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:37,040
Speaker 2: was drifting away, and I think she was bored. I

902
00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:40,200
Speaker 2: know she was, actually because she told me. But that

903
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:43,440
Speaker 2: was Kelly's thing, is she was always about excitement and

904
00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:50,240
Speaker 2: really having fun and not being too awfully serious about

905
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:55,840
Speaker 2: anything and looking for you know, however she could whatever

906
00:56:56,040 --> 00:56:58,759
Speaker 2: way she didn't like, alter her mind, I guess, and

907
00:56:59,640 --> 00:57:03,920
Speaker 2: get out out of reality that way. She was drinking

908
00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:08,279
Speaker 2: a lot more around that time. She had always, I mean,

909
00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:10,840
Speaker 2: since I met her, she had always liked to drink.

910
00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:13,880
Speaker 2: But you know, I think too she was spending a

911
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:17,160
Speaker 2: lot more time with some other friends that she had.

912
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:20,520
Speaker 2: And I don't blame her, you know, I mean, who

913
00:57:20,560 --> 00:57:25,280
Speaker 2: would want to be around some super depressive, you know,

914
00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:28,280
Speaker 2: boyfriend that you know, never wanted to go anywhere and

915
00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:31,960
Speaker 2: never wanted to do anything and half the time was

916
00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:37,560
Speaker 2: just sort of half awake. But yeah, so that was

917
00:57:37,600 --> 00:57:41,200
Speaker 2: sort of I think the beginning of the end, and

918
00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:43,200
Speaker 2: I came out of it a little bit, and I

919
00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:45,920
Speaker 2: think we were more out of habit than anything. You know,

920
00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:47,800
Speaker 2: we continue to see each other.

921
00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:52,160
Speaker 1: Would she want to talk about Anastasia and justin.

922
00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:55,560
Speaker 2: No, that didn't really come up except maybe a couple

923
00:57:55,600 --> 00:57:58,640
Speaker 2: of times, and I was just like, I just didn't

924
00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:00,600
Speaker 2: want to talk about it. You know, I was not

925
00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:04,080
Speaker 2: in a place where I was avoiding in my own way,

926
00:58:04,160 --> 00:58:07,320
Speaker 2: and you know, I was still seeing a counselor at

927
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:11,960
Speaker 2: that point and that was really helpful. But yeah, I

928
00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:16,000
Speaker 2: just really I didn't want to really talk about anything.

929
00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:17,680
Speaker 2: I didn't want to talk about my dad. I didn't

930
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:18,520
Speaker 2: want to talk about them.

931
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:22,200
Speaker 1: August twenty second of nineteen ninety eight, Kelly meets with

932
00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:27,720
Speaker 1: kill Gore. Okay, she tells kil Gore that you two

933
00:58:27,800 --> 00:58:31,920
Speaker 1: had been fighting a lot, you've been acting weird and

934
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:35,600
Speaker 1: that you may know more than what you're saying. She thinks,

935
00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:37,920
Speaker 1: based on a lot of rumors and how you were acting,

936
00:58:38,120 --> 00:58:42,400
Speaker 1: maybe you justin Anaesthetia did have a suicide pact, or

937
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:46,120
Speaker 1: maybe you and Justin watched Anasasia kill herself then freaked out.

938
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:50,600
Speaker 1: She says, quote, I don't really think it. I don't

939
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:53,880
Speaker 1: think it was really a murder situation. I think one

940
00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:55,920
Speaker 1: of them wanted to commit suicide, they couldn't do it,

941
00:58:55,960 --> 00:58:58,880
Speaker 1: they helped each other or something like that. What do

942
00:58:58,920 --> 00:58:59,439
Speaker 1: you make of.

943
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:02,800
Speaker 2: This as far as Yeah, as far as fighting a lot,

944
00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:06,800
Speaker 2: I don't think that was the case. I think that

945
00:59:06,840 --> 00:59:09,960
Speaker 2: we were having some disagreements because I know that some

946
00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:11,840
Speaker 2: of the people that she was hanging out with I

947
00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:16,080
Speaker 2: did not like, mostly because they were drug users, and

948
00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:20,560
Speaker 2: you know, I was very much against that. Other than that, yeah,

949
00:59:20,560 --> 00:59:23,640
Speaker 2: I mean, I wouldn't say that other than just kind

950
00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:26,800
Speaker 2: of a distance, that we had any real problems as

951
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:30,800
Speaker 2: far as her going to kill Gore, I mean, yeah,

952
00:59:30,880 --> 00:59:34,840
Speaker 2: like all of that was. She never gave me any

953
00:59:34,840 --> 00:59:39,920
Speaker 2: indication that she had any suspicions that she felt or

954
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:43,400
Speaker 2: thought that way any of that. So I was completely

955
00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:43,920
Speaker 2: in the dark.

956
00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:49,480
Speaker 1: Byron never answers my question about whether or not there

957
00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:55,800
Speaker 1: was a suicide pact. A few months after Kelly speaks

958
00:59:55,840 --> 00:59:59,920
Speaker 1: with kil Gore. On December ninth, nineteen ninety eight, by

959
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:03,720
Speaker 1: Bran's probation from the stealing charge is revoked. This is

960
01:00:03,760 --> 01:00:05,840
Speaker 1: when he broke into his aunt's house to steal the

961
01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:10,280
Speaker 1: computer monitor. It's revoked for missing meetings with his probation

962
01:00:10,440 --> 01:00:14,440
Speaker 1: officer and failing to report a change of residents. He

963
01:00:14,560 --> 01:00:17,560
Speaker 1: is sentenced to six months in the Clay County Jail,

964
01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:22,160
Speaker 1: but they end up giving him five years probation. Byron

965
01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:24,360
Speaker 1: claims the missed appointments were a mix up with a

966
01:00:24,400 --> 01:00:28,840
Speaker 1: probation officer who didn't like him. Supposedly, the PO changed

967
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:34,320
Speaker 1: Byron's meetings from monthly to weekly, unbeknownst to Byron. Also

968
01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:37,960
Speaker 1: in December of nineteen ninety eight, Byron and Kelly call

969
01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:42,280
Speaker 1: it quits. Kelly supposedly breaks up with Byron for good,

970
01:00:43,280 --> 01:00:46,440
Speaker 1: but then just a few weeks later, on January twenty ninth,

971
01:00:46,640 --> 01:00:50,240
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety nine, Byron says he gets a call from

972
01:00:50,320 --> 01:00:52,440
Speaker 1: Kelly who wants to see.

973
01:00:52,240 --> 01:00:56,120
Speaker 2: Him, you know, and this time I put my foot

974
01:00:56,160 --> 01:00:58,840
Speaker 2: down and I was like, absolutely not, and she didn't

975
01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:00,200
Speaker 2: want to get off the phones, so I hung up

976
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:04,880
Speaker 2: on her. I don't know, maybe who knows, maybe twenty

977
01:01:04,920 --> 01:01:07,400
Speaker 2: thirty minutes after I'd gotten off the phone with her,

978
01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:09,800
Speaker 2: and she had tried to call back several times. But

979
01:01:11,160 --> 01:01:12,400
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, there was a knock at my

980
01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:15,919
Speaker 2: door and I went to open it and it's two

981
01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:21,320
Speaker 2: CACPD officers and I'm like, what can I do for you?

982
01:01:21,560 --> 01:01:25,080
Speaker 2: And they just sort of push past me and they well,

983
01:01:25,080 --> 01:01:27,080
Speaker 2: they said are you Byron Case? And I said yes,

984
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:30,240
Speaker 2: and they just pushed past me and they kind of

985
01:01:30,240 --> 01:01:35,920
Speaker 2: do a cursory look around the area and explained that

986
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:38,040
Speaker 2: they were looking for any weapons. They asked if I

987
01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:40,120
Speaker 2: had a you know, knives or guns in the house,

988
01:01:40,120 --> 01:01:42,360
Speaker 2: and I was like, kitchen drawers. I mean, what do

989
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:42,720
Speaker 2: you want?

990
01:01:43,840 --> 01:01:45,680
Speaker 1: Are you thinking at this point has anything to do

991
01:01:45,760 --> 01:01:46,680
Speaker 1: with the investigation?

992
01:01:47,800 --> 01:01:50,360
Speaker 2: I had no idea what this was about. It was

993
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:53,280
Speaker 2: just it was so out of the blue. No, I

994
01:01:53,360 --> 01:01:55,760
Speaker 2: never had any inkling that this was anything to do

995
01:01:55,800 --> 01:02:00,880
Speaker 2: with the investigation. It was just like, what the hell?

996
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:03,520
Speaker 2: And then one of the officers said, well, we got

997
01:02:03,520 --> 01:02:08,240
Speaker 2: a report that from someone who said she was your girlfriend,

998
01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:09,960
Speaker 2: said she had just talked on you and talked to

999
01:02:09,960 --> 01:02:11,520
Speaker 2: you on the phone and that you were suicidal, that

1000
01:02:11,560 --> 01:02:13,880
Speaker 2: you were threatening to kill yourself. And I was like, no,

1001
01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:17,080
Speaker 2: that's absurd, you know. But they said, well, we have

1002
01:02:17,120 --> 01:02:21,200
Speaker 2: to take you in for observation, and so they put

1003
01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:26,920
Speaker 2: me in handcuffs. I was very concerned and asked them

1004
01:02:26,920 --> 01:02:28,960
Speaker 2: if they would leave some food for my cat, you know,

1005
01:02:29,040 --> 01:02:30,560
Speaker 2: I was. I was worried about her.

1006
01:02:31,080 --> 01:02:35,200
Speaker 1: And Byron says they take him to Western Missouri Medical

1007
01:02:35,240 --> 01:02:38,720
Speaker 1: Health Center and evaluate him for forty seven.

1008
01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:43,160
Speaker 2: Hours basically, and the whole way through I told them

1009
01:02:43,280 --> 01:02:46,720
Speaker 2: I am not suicidal. I am fine. Yeah, it was

1010
01:02:46,760 --> 01:02:52,000
Speaker 2: just it was a nightmare. And then and then they

1011
01:02:52,120 --> 01:02:56,600
Speaker 2: let me out. They're like, well, you're not suicidal. A done.

1012
01:02:57,360 --> 01:03:01,440
Speaker 1: Although Kelly testified that Byron did threatened to kill himself

1013
01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:04,880
Speaker 1: that day, Byron says after he was released from the

1014
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:09,200
Speaker 1: hospital and he confronted Kelly about it, she had something

1015
01:03:09,520 --> 01:03:10,680
Speaker 1: very different to say.

1016
01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:14,600
Speaker 2: She basically didn't seem particularly concerned about it and was

1017
01:03:14,600 --> 01:03:17,040
Speaker 2: sort of like, well, you shouldn't have hung up on me.

1018
01:03:18,000 --> 01:03:18,680
Speaker 2: And that was that.

1019
01:03:32,200 --> 01:03:35,760
Speaker 1: Early to mid nineteen ninety nine is busy for Byron.

1020
01:03:36,480 --> 01:03:39,520
Speaker 1: He says he and Kelly break up. Police take him

1021
01:03:39,520 --> 01:03:42,600
Speaker 1: in on a forty seven hour mental healthhold, and he

1022
01:03:42,640 --> 01:03:46,840
Speaker 1: gets a new attorney who negotiates with prosecutors to get

1023
01:03:46,880 --> 01:03:51,400
Speaker 1: him limited immunity in exchange for him telling them what

1024
01:03:51,520 --> 01:03:53,600
Speaker 1: he knows about the night Anastasia was.

1025
01:03:53,640 --> 01:03:56,439
Speaker 2: Killed by immunity. Where as long as I went in

1026
01:03:56,560 --> 01:03:58,560
Speaker 2: and gave a statement, and as long as nothing that

1027
01:03:58,640 --> 01:04:03,200
Speaker 2: I said was determined to be untruthful, that you know,

1028
01:04:03,240 --> 01:04:05,440
Speaker 2: they wouldn't use anything against me. And I was satisfied

1029
01:04:05,480 --> 01:04:06,960
Speaker 2: with that, and he was satisfied with that.

1030
01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:07,600
Speaker 3: You know.

1031
01:04:07,760 --> 01:04:11,040
Speaker 2: My concern I think I had just I had been

1032
01:04:11,040 --> 01:04:14,200
Speaker 2: listening to my friends, you know, just spin all of

1033
01:04:14,200 --> 01:04:18,560
Speaker 2: these horror stories about oh, well, you know, they'll frame

1034
01:04:18,800 --> 01:04:21,600
Speaker 2: they'll frame somebody if they if they haven't found somebody yet,

1035
01:04:21,600 --> 01:04:24,000
Speaker 2: they're just looking to close the case, and you know,

1036
01:04:24,080 --> 01:04:25,800
Speaker 2: and so I had it in my head like, well,

1037
01:04:26,040 --> 01:04:27,800
Speaker 2: you know, maybe I should be careful. And I think

1038
01:04:27,800 --> 01:04:30,200
Speaker 2: that was really the first time when I started to

1039
01:04:30,200 --> 01:04:34,160
Speaker 2: feel a little uncomfortable about the whole thing, like that

1040
01:04:34,280 --> 01:04:38,200
Speaker 2: maybe I was going to you know, that I was

1041
01:04:38,240 --> 01:04:42,200
Speaker 2: going to be the focus of some kind of you know,

1042
01:04:42,520 --> 01:04:44,680
Speaker 2: attention in the investigation.

1043
01:04:45,080 --> 01:04:48,160
Speaker 1: In any case. On July twenty ninth, nineteen ninety nine,

1044
01:04:48,600 --> 01:04:51,600
Speaker 1: Byron sits down for his second interview with Sergeant Kilgore

1045
01:04:51,720 --> 01:04:56,240
Speaker 1: since Anastasia's death almost two years earlier. Byron gives the

1046
01:04:56,280 --> 01:05:00,000
Speaker 1: same basic story he did back on October twenty five,

1047
01:05:00,480 --> 01:05:04,760
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety seven, so he's free to go. Byron says,

1048
01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:08,080
Speaker 1: after that, things seem to turn around for him. He

1049
01:05:08,160 --> 01:05:10,680
Speaker 1: finds a new group of friends, he gets a job

1050
01:05:10,720 --> 01:05:11,280
Speaker 1: at a hotel.

1051
01:05:11,440 --> 01:05:15,479
Speaker 2: There was a period of time in that year when

1052
01:05:15,880 --> 01:05:22,280
Speaker 2: I think I finally was coming into my own to

1053
01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:27,720
Speaker 2: some extent. At that point, I was celibate by choice,

1054
01:05:28,600 --> 01:05:31,360
Speaker 2: and I was kind of going through this period of

1055
01:05:31,480 --> 01:05:34,560
Speaker 2: what I felt like was kind of being a more

1056
01:05:35,240 --> 01:05:38,840
Speaker 2: purposeful and centered me, and I had moved away from

1057
01:05:38,920 --> 01:05:42,280
Speaker 2: that kind of that fuck the world attitude that I

1058
01:05:42,320 --> 01:05:43,080
Speaker 2: mentioned earlier.

1059
01:05:44,440 --> 01:05:46,880
Speaker 1: But Byron says, as much as he's trying to move

1060
01:05:46,920 --> 01:05:50,840
Speaker 1: on with his life, someone from his past keeps popping

1061
01:05:50,920 --> 01:05:55,720
Speaker 1: up Kelly, and he admits to feeling sorry for her.

1062
01:05:56,880 --> 01:05:59,680
Speaker 2: No matter what Kelly had done, I was always I

1063
01:05:59,720 --> 01:06:04,200
Speaker 2: think she's still a person, you know, she still deserves

1064
01:06:04,280 --> 01:06:08,920
Speaker 2: some basic dignity, even if she's done this to herself.

1065
01:06:09,240 --> 01:06:12,520
Speaker 2: She said she was living in crackhouses, like she had

1066
01:06:12,560 --> 01:06:14,800
Speaker 2: not been taking care of herself at all. And she

1067
01:06:14,800 --> 01:06:16,760
Speaker 2: would say, you know, she would tell me like that

1068
01:06:16,800 --> 01:06:19,040
Speaker 2: she had showered in a week, and you know, she

1069
01:06:19,080 --> 01:06:21,840
Speaker 2: hadn't eaten anything. Sometimes I would give her money if

1070
01:06:21,880 --> 01:06:25,200
Speaker 2: she needed like some you know, some spare cash or whatever.

1071
01:06:25,520 --> 01:06:28,120
Speaker 2: Sometimes she just wanted to come over and sleep, so

1072
01:06:28,280 --> 01:06:31,080
Speaker 2: I let her sleep on the couch and you know,

1073
01:06:31,120 --> 01:06:33,600
Speaker 2: and then at some point she'd leave.

1074
01:06:35,040 --> 01:06:38,680
Speaker 1: Then one day, Byron says, Kelly comes over with a friend.

1075
01:06:39,240 --> 01:06:41,240
Speaker 1: He tells her that he's moving to Saint Louis, about

1076
01:06:41,280 --> 01:06:45,040
Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty miles away. Byron says, Kelly is

1077
01:06:45,200 --> 01:06:50,120
Speaker 1: not happy about this. Before leaving town, Byron asks people

1078
01:06:50,240 --> 01:06:52,920
Speaker 1: not to give Kelly his forwarding information.

1079
01:06:54,040 --> 01:06:57,080
Speaker 2: So, yeah, I mean I was like full on, like

1080
01:06:57,520 --> 01:07:00,960
Speaker 2: witness protection program with her, Like I do not want to.

1081
01:07:01,360 --> 01:07:03,080
Speaker 2: I don't want to knowing where I am. I don't

1082
01:07:03,080 --> 01:07:07,720
Speaker 2: want to knowing like what I'm doing nothing, Byron says.

1083
01:07:07,720 --> 01:07:10,800
Speaker 1: He moves to Saint Louis on September thirteenth, two thousand

1084
01:07:10,800 --> 01:07:12,800
Speaker 1: and he gets a job working at a hotel as

1085
01:07:12,800 --> 01:07:16,520
Speaker 1: a desk clerk. He starts dating a new girl. Then

1086
01:07:16,720 --> 01:07:20,120
Speaker 1: sometime around March two thousand and one, Byron moves back

1087
01:07:20,160 --> 01:07:23,080
Speaker 1: to Kansas City and in with his mom and her

1088
01:07:23,120 --> 01:07:28,960
Speaker 1: now husband, Napoleon. Then around eleven PM on June fifth,

1089
01:07:29,480 --> 01:07:32,120
Speaker 1: the phone rings.

1090
01:07:32,280 --> 01:07:35,960
Speaker 2: I had been sick that week. I was vomiting and

1091
01:07:36,200 --> 01:07:41,760
Speaker 2: I had a fever and just feeling very delirious, and

1092
01:07:42,200 --> 01:07:44,760
Speaker 2: just like I said, lightheaded and dizzy.

1093
01:07:46,360 --> 01:07:50,480
Speaker 1: It's Kelly and this recorded call will become the tacit

1094
01:07:50,560 --> 01:07:52,880
Speaker 1: a mission used against him at.

1095
01:07:52,760 --> 01:08:00,040
Speaker 2: Trial and then whatever the hell we talked about. And

1096
01:08:00,120 --> 01:08:03,720
Speaker 2: I know now, but in that moment, I know that

1097
01:08:03,760 --> 01:08:09,000
Speaker 2: I wasn't really completely following the thread. So I just

1098
01:08:09,360 --> 01:08:11,480
Speaker 2: really did not want to be speaking to her or

1099
01:08:11,560 --> 01:08:15,000
Speaker 2: anybody for that matter, but particularly not her, And I

1100
01:08:15,080 --> 01:08:18,840
Speaker 2: was just I do remember having a distinct impression of like, ah, fu,

1101
01:08:18,960 --> 01:08:19,439
Speaker 2: here you're going.

1102
01:08:19,520 --> 01:08:23,720
Speaker 1: Yet she said something like why did you feel the

1103
01:08:23,760 --> 01:08:26,040
Speaker 1: need to kill her? Why did you have to kill her?

1104
01:08:26,400 --> 01:08:28,920
Speaker 1: And what do you think in that moment when you

1105
01:08:28,960 --> 01:08:30,640
Speaker 1: hear that question from her?

1106
01:08:31,600 --> 01:08:33,679
Speaker 2: I don't remember thinking anything, but.

1107
01:08:33,920 --> 01:08:37,040
Speaker 1: One would say, like somebody listening to this might be like,

1108
01:08:37,120 --> 01:08:39,920
Speaker 1: that's crazy. I don't care how sick I am. If

1109
01:08:39,960 --> 01:08:42,800
Speaker 1: someone asks me why I had to kill someone, I

1110
01:08:42,840 --> 01:08:45,720
Speaker 1: would say, what are you talking about? I didn't do that.

1111
01:08:47,160 --> 01:08:51,760
Speaker 2: What do you say to that, Well, I would say

1112
01:08:51,800 --> 01:08:58,840
Speaker 2: that person doesn't really understand the background of what was

1113
01:08:58,880 --> 01:09:01,600
Speaker 2: going on with Kelly and me, the fact that my

1114
01:09:01,760 --> 01:09:05,280
Speaker 2: strategy with her was always basically just avoid, to push away,

1115
01:09:06,240 --> 01:09:09,360
Speaker 2: ignore whatever I had heard.

1116
01:09:09,560 --> 01:09:13,080
Speaker 1: Byron says a few days later, he's arrested while lying

1117
01:09:13,120 --> 01:09:20,920
Speaker 1: in bed, I read that swat comes through the front

1118
01:09:20,920 --> 01:09:24,080
Speaker 1: door and you tried to barricade yourself in the bedroom.

1119
01:09:24,160 --> 01:09:27,960
Speaker 2: Now that's absolute little shit. I remember reading that though,

1120
01:09:28,040 --> 01:09:32,680
Speaker 2: and going what, No, that did not happen. No, I

1121
01:09:32,760 --> 01:09:36,439
Speaker 2: was absolutely still in bed when they came through that door,

1122
01:09:37,640 --> 01:09:39,800
Speaker 2: and that was what woke me up. Was just like

1123
01:09:39,840 --> 01:09:45,080
Speaker 2: a shot out of the blue. It was horrifying.

1124
01:09:45,960 --> 01:09:51,000
Speaker 1: That's actually why would Byron deny this? Yes, there's always

1125
01:09:51,000 --> 01:09:54,640
Speaker 1: a chance the report isn't true, But why would the

1126
01:09:54,760 --> 01:09:58,759
Speaker 1: arresting officer make up this story, write a detailed report

1127
01:09:58,800 --> 01:10:02,439
Speaker 1: about it, and testify to it at trial. It gives

1128
01:10:02,520 --> 01:10:05,679
Speaker 1: me pause. If Byron is not being truthful about this,

1129
01:10:06,280 --> 01:10:10,559
Speaker 1: then what else could he be lying about? What is

1130
01:10:10,600 --> 01:10:13,040
Speaker 1: going through you when you realize that you have been

1131
01:10:13,720 --> 01:10:15,920
Speaker 1: arrested for the murder of Anna Station.

1132
01:10:17,600 --> 01:10:21,920
Speaker 2: I was in shock, and then I think there was

1133
01:10:22,000 --> 01:10:30,240
Speaker 2: like this sort of grim understanding. It was almost like, well,

1134
01:10:30,280 --> 01:10:34,479
Speaker 2: here it is. This is this is what all of

1135
01:10:34,520 --> 01:10:37,280
Speaker 2: this has come to, Like all of the interviews and

1136
01:10:37,320 --> 01:10:39,920
Speaker 2: all the suspicion and all the rumors and all the

1137
01:10:39,920 --> 01:10:42,639
Speaker 2: bullshit that I've had to deal with over all these years,

1138
01:10:43,160 --> 01:10:45,680
Speaker 2: and now here it is, and this is happening, and

1139
01:10:45,720 --> 01:10:46,400
Speaker 2: it's finally.

1140
01:10:46,479 --> 01:10:49,840
Speaker 1: When Byron's mom, Evelyn, visits him at the Jackson County jail,

1141
01:10:50,439 --> 01:10:52,160
Speaker 1: she asks him if he did.

1142
01:10:52,120 --> 01:10:56,720
Speaker 2: It, and I remember just going like, really, you're going

1143
01:10:56,800 --> 01:10:59,479
Speaker 2: to ask me that, you know? I mean, I saw

1144
01:10:59,520 --> 01:11:03,439
Speaker 2: her that I was, I was around her, I lived

1145
01:11:03,439 --> 01:11:07,719
Speaker 2: with her during that period. I didn't want a gun,

1146
01:11:08,040 --> 01:11:11,840
Speaker 2: you know, I never had. She she would have known

1147
01:11:11,920 --> 01:11:17,559
Speaker 2: if I had any kind of murderous tendencies or you

1148
01:11:17,560 --> 01:11:21,479
Speaker 2: know whatever. I mean. Now, of course I didn't, And

1149
01:11:22,360 --> 01:11:25,880
Speaker 2: what the hell I mean if you don't believe me,

1150
01:11:26,840 --> 01:11:28,200
Speaker 2: like then I'm fucked.

1151
01:11:29,320 --> 01:11:32,160
Speaker 1: Byron remains in jail for almost a year until he

1152
01:11:32,200 --> 01:11:38,040
Speaker 1: goes to trial. As you sat there watching Kelly testify,

1153
01:11:38,840 --> 01:11:41,599
Speaker 1: first of all, did she look at you? No?

1154
01:11:42,080 --> 01:11:44,080
Speaker 2: Not really, I think she glanced in my direction a

1155
01:11:44,080 --> 01:11:44,880
Speaker 2: few times.

1156
01:11:45,560 --> 01:11:52,960
Speaker 1: What was it like sitting there hearing her eyewitness testimony

1157
01:11:53,120 --> 01:11:55,600
Speaker 1: to you killing Anastasia?

1158
01:11:56,080 --> 01:11:59,559
Speaker 2: I was just kind of in awe. I think of

1159
01:11:59,600 --> 01:12:03,000
Speaker 2: her months. Maybe part of me kind of halfway expected

1160
01:12:03,040 --> 01:12:06,519
Speaker 2: that she would change tack and just be like, all right, look, guys,

1161
01:12:06,880 --> 01:12:09,920
Speaker 2: I can't do it anymore. This is he didn't do it.

1162
01:12:10,040 --> 01:12:15,080
Speaker 2: I'm it's bullshit. I made it up. I'm sorry she

1163
01:12:15,200 --> 01:12:15,840
Speaker 2: didn't do that.

1164
01:12:17,080 --> 01:12:19,200
Speaker 1: Why did you choose to take the stand in your

1165
01:12:19,200 --> 01:12:19,759
Speaker 1: own defense?

1166
01:12:21,400 --> 01:12:24,640
Speaker 2: I think it was really I had no choice but to,

1167
01:12:25,000 --> 01:12:30,080
Speaker 2: because who was going to say what actually happened. Justin

1168
01:12:30,400 --> 01:12:33,599
Speaker 2: was there that night. He couldn't take the stand. Kelly

1169
01:12:33,640 --> 01:12:36,880
Speaker 2: obviously wasn't going to tell the truth, and nobody else

1170
01:12:36,920 --> 01:12:41,040
Speaker 2: could say, you know from beginning to end what had

1171
01:12:41,080 --> 01:12:41,639
Speaker 2: taken place.

1172
01:12:42,400 --> 01:12:45,840
Speaker 1: One of the things she said was that you had

1173
01:12:47,560 --> 01:12:50,120
Speaker 1: said at one point, I wouldn't know what it's like

1174
01:12:50,160 --> 01:12:51,680
Speaker 1: to see someone die, or I want to know what

1175
01:12:51,680 --> 01:12:53,719
Speaker 1: it's like to kill someone. Have you ever said anything

1176
01:12:54,080 --> 01:12:54,479
Speaker 1: like that?

1177
01:12:54,680 --> 01:12:56,559
Speaker 2: No? No, absolutely not.

1178
01:12:56,760 --> 01:12:57,840
Speaker 1: Did you ever own a gun?

1179
01:12:58,080 --> 01:12:58,240
Speaker 2: No?

1180
01:12:58,800 --> 01:13:01,160
Speaker 1: Did your dad ever own a gun? No? Did he

1181
01:13:01,200 --> 01:13:02,320
Speaker 1: ever display a gun?

1182
01:13:02,479 --> 01:13:02,679
Speaker 2: No?

1183
01:13:03,400 --> 01:13:06,600
Speaker 1: Were you and Justin ever romantically involved.

1184
01:13:06,760 --> 01:13:10,360
Speaker 2: No, we were not. There was never No, there was

1185
01:13:10,400 --> 01:13:13,280
Speaker 2: never anything even remotely close to that with Justin and me.

1186
01:13:15,120 --> 01:13:18,000
Speaker 1: Did you Kelly and Justin make up the story about

1187
01:13:18,000 --> 01:13:19,280
Speaker 1: Anastasia getting out of the car.

1188
01:13:20,080 --> 01:13:20,280
Speaker 2: No?

1189
01:13:22,080 --> 01:13:25,120
Speaker 1: Did you coach Kelly on what to say during that

1190
01:13:25,200 --> 01:13:26,599
Speaker 1: first interview with kil Gore?

1191
01:13:27,439 --> 01:13:28,320
Speaker 2: Oh no?

1192
01:13:28,320 --> 01:13:28,439
Speaker 3: No.

1193
01:13:29,479 --> 01:13:34,280
Speaker 1: Did you take Kelly in and around Independence so that

1194
01:13:34,360 --> 01:13:36,519
Speaker 1: when she went out with kil Gore she could help

1195
01:13:36,640 --> 01:13:39,680
Speaker 1: tell where Anastasia got out of the car and so on?

1196
01:13:40,360 --> 01:13:43,840
Speaker 2: No, we just as an adenta to that. Though we

1197
01:13:43,920 --> 01:13:49,360
Speaker 2: did go out just not to retrace any route or anything,

1198
01:13:49,400 --> 01:13:51,599
Speaker 2: but we had after talking with a friend of ours

1199
01:13:52,200 --> 01:13:56,320
Speaker 2: who told us that she had been out to Lincoln Cemetery.

1200
01:13:57,080 --> 01:14:01,760
Speaker 2: We were We went out there and wanted to see

1201
01:14:01,760 --> 01:14:03,519
Speaker 2: it because we heard there was like a little memorial

1202
01:14:03,680 --> 01:14:05,600
Speaker 2: or something. So we did go out there, but it

1203
01:14:05,640 --> 01:14:06,639
Speaker 2: was not for that purpose.

1204
01:14:06,840 --> 01:14:09,280
Speaker 1: Did you kill Anastasia Whippelsfugen?

1205
01:14:09,439 --> 01:14:10,400
Speaker 2: I definitely did not.

1206
01:14:11,280 --> 01:14:13,040
Speaker 1: Are you capable of murder?

1207
01:14:14,439 --> 01:14:15,600
Speaker 2: I definitely am not.

1208
01:14:17,080 --> 01:14:19,719
Speaker 1: It was justin capable of murder?

1209
01:14:22,360 --> 01:14:28,000
Speaker 2: I don't think so. I No, I don't think so

1210
01:14:29,200 --> 01:14:29,559
Speaker 2: like that.

1211
01:14:29,760 --> 01:14:33,719
Speaker 1: You know, I'm fully aware that Byron would probably answer

1212
01:14:33,720 --> 01:14:37,519
Speaker 1: these questions the same way, whether he's guilty or innocent,

1213
01:14:38,240 --> 01:14:41,200
Speaker 1: like when I asked him, did you kill Anastasia? If

1214
01:14:41,240 --> 01:14:43,080
Speaker 1: he's guilty, he's not going to all of a sudden

1215
01:14:43,120 --> 01:14:45,880
Speaker 1: say yes, I did it, right. I think I asked

1216
01:14:45,880 --> 01:14:48,839
Speaker 1: these questions because I wanted to see how he looked,

1217
01:14:49,240 --> 01:14:53,040
Speaker 1: how he sounded, how he seemed when he answered them.

1218
01:14:53,800 --> 01:14:57,160
Speaker 1: I'm going to post video clips of this exchange on Instagram.

1219
01:14:57,720 --> 01:15:02,599
Speaker 1: What do you think is Byron convincing or not? Like that?

1220
01:15:02,880 --> 01:15:06,400
Speaker 1: Can you imagine why people might look at Kelly and say, well,

1221
01:15:06,800 --> 01:15:09,679
Speaker 1: of course she went deep and dark into her drug addiction.

1222
01:15:09,920 --> 01:15:11,120
Speaker 1: She witnessed a murder.

1223
01:15:11,600 --> 01:15:16,640
Speaker 2: So to say that witnessing a murderer was the catalyst

1224
01:15:16,720 --> 01:15:21,040
Speaker 2: for her to descend into hard drug use, I'm calling

1225
01:15:21,080 --> 01:15:23,600
Speaker 2: bullshit because I know for a fact that she was

1226
01:15:23,720 --> 01:15:27,320
Speaker 2: using hard drugs, and maybe not as regularly, but that

1227
01:15:27,400 --> 01:15:32,960
Speaker 2: she had at least and long before that, and again

1228
01:15:33,200 --> 01:15:38,800
Speaker 2: I think even before she met me. So right, it

1229
01:15:38,880 --> 01:15:41,200
Speaker 2: is a convenient excuse, though, Yeah, what do.

1230
01:15:41,200 --> 01:15:43,439
Speaker 1: You say to the people out there who think you

1231
01:15:43,640 --> 01:15:44,960
Speaker 1: are murderer?

1232
01:15:46,000 --> 01:15:51,480
Speaker 2: I think that it is very easy because I lived

1233
01:15:53,760 --> 01:15:57,040
Speaker 2: I lived a lifestyle and put forth a persona that

1234
01:15:57,200 --> 01:16:05,519
Speaker 2: was easily detestable. I think that was obnoxious and rude

1235
01:16:05,880 --> 01:16:10,840
Speaker 2: and seemed not to take anybody's feelings at all into account.

1236
01:16:10,880 --> 01:16:14,040
Speaker 2: And I think that a person who does that sort

1237
01:16:14,080 --> 01:16:18,280
Speaker 2: of thing can easily be seen as being heartless and

1238
01:16:18,320 --> 01:16:24,719
Speaker 2: maybe even capable of doing unspeakable things. I a long

1239
01:16:24,800 --> 01:16:32,040
Speaker 2: time ago accepted that people aren't going to like me,

1240
01:16:32,439 --> 01:16:34,600
Speaker 2: and people are going to think some terrible things about me,

1241
01:16:35,439 --> 01:16:44,160
Speaker 2: and it isn't my job to make them think otherwise.

1242
01:16:45,400 --> 01:16:47,280
Speaker 2: It's not my job to go out of my way

1243
01:16:47,360 --> 01:16:52,000
Speaker 2: to try and convince anyone.

1244
01:16:55,640 --> 01:16:58,479
Speaker 1: Byron might not think it's his job to convince anyone

1245
01:16:58,520 --> 01:17:02,360
Speaker 1: he's innocent, but his new legal team is working overtime

1246
01:17:02,680 --> 01:17:03,599
Speaker 1: to do just that.

1247
01:17:04,640 --> 01:17:08,200
Speaker 3: Byron's in prison because people made up their minds without

1248
01:17:08,200 --> 01:17:12,799
Speaker 3: looking at the evidence. But I'm now one hundred percent

1249
01:17:12,920 --> 01:17:16,639
Speaker 3: certain that Byron did not do this, didn't have anything

1250
01:17:16,680 --> 01:17:19,439
Speaker 3: to do with it, and did not get a fair

1251
01:17:19,479 --> 01:17:23,200
Speaker 3: trial and has languished in prison for close to twenty

1252
01:17:23,200 --> 01:17:25,880
Speaker 3: five years for something he didn't do.

1253
01:17:30,560 --> 01:17:32,680
Speaker 1: Next time, on the real killer.

1254
01:17:33,720 --> 01:17:37,280
Speaker 3: There is no physical evidence tying byron case to the

1255
01:17:37,360 --> 01:17:41,320
Speaker 3: murder or the death of Anastasia Whippolsfugen.

1256
01:17:41,479 --> 01:17:45,040
Speaker 1: Will A new bombshell in the case change Byron's Fate.

1257
01:17:46,240 --> 01:17:50,400
Speaker 3: I pulled up the audio and I was just listening along,

1258
01:17:50,479 --> 01:17:54,160
Speaker 3: and I was like, wait, what it was. It was

1259
01:17:54,200 --> 01:17:55,639
Speaker 3: like a lightning bolt or something.

1260
01:17:55,680 --> 01:17:56,200
Speaker 2: It was great.

1261
01:17:56,240 --> 01:18:04,600
Speaker 3: It was crazy.

1262
01:18:05,600 --> 01:18:09,160
Speaker 1: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely

1263
01:18:09,200 --> 01:18:14,240
Speaker 1: those of the individuals participating in the podcast. If you,

1264
01:18:14,760 --> 01:18:18,760
Speaker 1: or someone you know is experiencing suicidal thoughts or a crisis,

1265
01:18:19,200 --> 01:18:23,360
Speaker 1: please no help is available. Call or text nine to

1266
01:18:23,439 --> 01:18:26,879
Speaker 1: eight eight, or chat online at the Suicide and Crisis

1267
01:18:26,920 --> 01:18:32,280
Speaker 1: Lifelines website at nine eight eight lifeline dot org. To

1268
01:18:32,280 --> 01:18:35,559
Speaker 1: see photos, maps and documents related to this season's story,

1269
01:18:36,000 --> 01:18:39,879
Speaker 1: follow The Real Killer podcast on Instagram and at TRK

1270
01:18:40,080 --> 01:18:47,960
Speaker 1: podcast on TikTok. The Real Killer is a production of

1271
01:18:48,040 --> 01:18:54,120
Speaker 1: AYR Media and iHeartMedia, hosted by me Leah Rothman, Executive

1272
01:18:54,120 --> 01:18:59,080
Speaker 1: producers Leah Rothman and Elisa Rosen for AYR Media, Written

1273
01:18:59,320 --> 01:19:03,559
Speaker 1: by Lea Rothman, editing and sound design by Cameron Taggy,

1274
01:19:04,439 --> 01:19:09,680
Speaker 1: mixed and mastered by Cameron Taggi. Production coordinator Andy Levine,

1275
01:19:10,320 --> 01:19:17,160
Speaker 1: Audio engineer Justin Longerbeam studio engineer Graham Gibson. Legal counsel

1276
01:19:17,280 --> 01:19:23,240
Speaker 1: for AYR Media. Gianni Douglas, executive producer for iHeartMedia, Maya

1277
01:19:23,320 --> 01:19:23,679
Speaker 1: Howard