WEBVTT - What to Know About George C. Thomas Jr. (ft. Geoff Shackelford) 0:00:00.360 --> 0:00:04.360 Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast. 0:00:04.760 --> 0:00:10.320 Today's episode is with Jeff Shackleford. So we are continuing 0:00:10.440 --> 0:00:16.120 our series on golf course architects after many people stated 0:00:16.120 --> 0:00:19.720 that they loved the podcast with Wayne Morrison recently on 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:22.880 William Flynn, so we figured who better to talk about 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:27.320 George Thomas than Jeff Shackleford. Jeff has written the club 0:00:27.440 --> 0:00:32.600 History for Riviera as well as The Captain, a profile 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:37.000 book on George Thomas, the man himself, the man, the architecture, 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:41.239 his courses. Obviously. Another thing on George Thomas you can 0:00:41.280 --> 0:00:46.440 look into is his book Golf Architecture in America, which 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:49.720 a reprint is available on Amazon for fourteen bucks. So 0:00:50.200 --> 0:00:52.959 if you want to dive into George Thomas more, that's available. 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:57.080 But this is a riveting chat with Jeff Shackleford, obviously 0:00:57.120 --> 0:00:59.760 the owner of Jeff Shackleford dot com. He also has 0:00:59.840 --> 0:01:05.000 a substack newsletter called The Quadrilateral that is fifty bucks 0:01:05.040 --> 0:01:07.400 a year that I subscribe to. I really enjoy it, 0:01:08.120 --> 0:01:12.319 recommend that and without further ado, here is Jeff Shackelford. 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:15.399 I miss a green for example, I'm already upset when 0:01:15.400 --> 0:01:16.560 I find my ball in the bunker. 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:17.520 I'm really upset. 0:01:17.600 --> 0:01:18.920 And when I find my ball. 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:21.559 In a fried egg Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, 0:01:21.640 --> 0:01:25.280 Frida Egg, fridagg Brian egg Lie, I'm about ready to 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:26.679 run off of the course. 0:01:48.840 --> 0:01:55.280 Jeff, you are the foremost living George Thomas expert. In 0:01:55.360 --> 0:01:59.320 my opinion, You've written an entire novel, The Captain. I'm 0:01:59.400 --> 0:02:04.360 George Tom I'd love to hear how you first got 0:02:04.360 --> 0:02:06.720 interested in George Thomas. 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:11.240 Well, I was very lucky Andy that my dad joined 0:02:11.320 --> 0:02:15.320 Riviera when I was sixteen years old and kind of 0:02:15.320 --> 0:02:18.480 an aspiring player at the time. And he also had 0:02:18.480 --> 0:02:22.760 a copy of Golf Architecture in America, And so the 0:02:22.800 --> 0:02:26.560 combination of kind of getting to look at it. And 0:02:26.560 --> 0:02:28.720 that was when, by the way, when when copies of 0:02:28.760 --> 0:02:31.120 the book were a big deal and very scarce. Now 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:35.720 there's reprints and it's easier to get your hands on. 0:02:35.880 --> 0:02:40.000 But and it's such an incredible book. So it was 0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:44.239 it was as somebody who had kind of doodled golf 0:02:44.280 --> 0:02:48.560 holes and and had a young mind, and in that book, 0:02:48.639 --> 0:02:50.960 more than any of the great books, has just got 0:02:51.000 --> 0:02:55.600 so much in it visually, and so many little tantalizing 0:02:55.680 --> 0:02:59.440 things once you start playing some of his courses, like well, wait, 0:02:59.440 --> 0:03:02.840 what was this? What on earth is that photo of 0:03:02.880 --> 0:03:04.800 where's that course now? And so I was kind of 0:03:04.840 --> 0:03:12.040 in that mindset as a teenager. And then again when 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:14.679 I was sixteen, he joined Riviera, and so then I 0:03:14.720 --> 0:03:18.560 got to play Riviera and that was a crazy time there. 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:21.040 It was a very busy place, so it was a 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:24.920 miracle to get out before three o'clock. It was like 0:03:24.960 --> 0:03:27.800 a muni. But I grew to love the course, even 0:03:27.840 --> 0:03:36.880 in it's sort of not well aged state. And then 0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:41.000 as I played in college and got more into architecture, 0:03:42.000 --> 0:03:47.720 and they had the Greens project there in ninety three 0:03:47.760 --> 0:03:50.560 and ninety four, and I got to know Ben Crenshaw 0:03:50.720 --> 0:03:53.760 and Dave Excellent and Dan Procter were doing a lot 0:03:53.800 --> 0:03:57.400 of the shaping on site. And one thing led to another, 0:03:57.440 --> 0:04:00.360 and I just started looking for old photos. Went to 0:04:00.400 --> 0:04:03.800 the just kind of as my game was starting to stink. 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:06.120 I had a bad risk, I hit too many balls, 0:04:06.200 --> 0:04:09.800 never took enough days off, and I started hunting for 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:12.400 photos because they started this project and there were a 0:04:12.440 --> 0:04:15.080 lot of questions we had. There were things that Ben 0:04:15.240 --> 0:04:18.839 new and figured out, and then I went found photos 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:24.360 and really just got more and more into that, and 0:04:24.480 --> 0:04:26.960 that's what kind of led to me pitching a book 0:04:26.960 --> 0:04:30.000 to the ownership after college on the history Riviera. And 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:33.719 then I followed that up pretty quickly at age twenty 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:38.840 four with a self published book, The Captain, and it 0:04:38.880 --> 0:04:45.120 was printed quite stunningly by a member just did a 0:04:45.120 --> 0:04:47.760 beautiful job, and it was bound and a nice way. 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:49.680 I'm very proud of all that. The writing makes me 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:52.520 cringe a little bit, but I'm very proud of the 0:04:52.520 --> 0:04:55.160 book still. And I used to be able to draw too. 0:04:55.200 --> 0:04:58.159 I was kind of excited when I could. My hand 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:00.599 was steady or something. But it was just labor of 0:05:00.640 --> 0:05:03.919 love kind of thing. And and uh, there were just 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:06.240 so many questions to try to answer about the man, 0:05:06.400 --> 0:05:09.839 not only his golf architecture, but his his unbelievable. 0:05:09.279 --> 0:05:13.480 Life with the with Riviera. You joined your sixty, you'd 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:17.520 played golf before, obviously you were you know, you played 0:05:17.520 --> 0:05:20.360 college golf, so you at this point you're a you know, 0:05:20.680 --> 0:05:23.760 aspiring golfer. As you said, Yeah, what did you notice 0:05:23.800 --> 0:05:26.480 that was different about Riviera than the other courses that 0:05:26.520 --> 0:05:27.600 you had grown up playing? 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:32.080 Oh, well, it's just the scale of it. Was so grand. 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:36.080 And and again even with more trees than and different 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:41.159 things that that were clearly kind of not quite right. 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:43.400 I mean, there were really a lot of trees. Eucalyptus 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:46.800 were really dense, not trimmed. I mean it was it 0:05:46.880 --> 0:05:49.159 was a there were a lot of tight drives in 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:52.040 but uh, the bunkers of course, even sort of in 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:57.200 that state, were beautiful. And you know, the the ultimate 0:05:58.080 --> 0:06:00.880 thing about Riviera that got me was it's just it 0:06:00.920 --> 0:06:04.160 was just so much fun to play every day. You 0:06:04.240 --> 0:06:07.440 never got tired of it. No hole ever got boring, 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:09.400 even the holes that look you know, if you looked 0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:12.479 at them on Google Earth today or or then, which 0:06:12.560 --> 0:06:15.360 it didn't exist, but if you looked at them from 0:06:15.360 --> 0:06:21.640 afar as, some holes didn't look that captivating. Other holes 0:06:21.640 --> 0:06:23.919 obviously did, like sixteen and the part threes, all of 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:28.120 them really and and there just so were so many 0:06:28.120 --> 0:06:33.800 subtleties and different elements, even with cocuya, which also messes 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:37.839 up a lot of the great components of that design, 0:06:37.920 --> 0:06:42.200 the approaches in particular that are just beautifully done. And 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:44.960 so it was just that kind of that that interest 0:06:45.000 --> 0:06:46.800 in playing it every day, you just never get tired 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:47.080 of it. 0:06:47.520 --> 0:06:51.039 I didn't want to. I didn't This is jumping way ahead. 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:53.280 Rat hole, We're going to go down. 0:06:53.480 --> 0:06:57.200 But why is it cocuya? Does it need to be cocula? 0:06:57.839 --> 0:07:02.919 Could it be grassed differently? Yeah, to get those approaches back. 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:06.920 Yeah. To answer the last question first, yes, I do 0:07:07.000 --> 0:07:10.640 think it's kind of sad that, you know, a lot 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:14.440 of people have thrown that idea out before, of why 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:21.520 can't you have bermuda collars and approaches, kind of like 0:07:21.560 --> 0:07:25.120 Tory Pines did that when when Reese Jones redid it, 0:07:25.160 --> 0:07:27.000 one of the things they did was kept the kakua. 0:07:27.440 --> 0:07:32.040 How rustic is. 0:07:30.640 --> 0:07:33.720 Yeah, yeah, it's bent, and uh, we'd want to have 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:35.600 a little more of the bent in the fairways. And 0:07:35.680 --> 0:07:39.280 originally it was rye fairways. Then the the bent approaches 0:07:39.280 --> 0:07:42.440 and by the way, the bent approaches are unbelievably healthy 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:45.640 on the native soil, whereas the California greens are. They're fine, 0:07:45.680 --> 0:07:48.400 but they're not as healthy. It tells you a little 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:50.520 bit about you know, when you have good native soil, 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:52.880 you should use it. And Rustic had it on all 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:58.000 but one green site, so but Riviera it would be 0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:02.240 really nice to have that. And I know the USGA 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:04.480 threw it out when Tim Morgan was there, and some 0:08:04.560 --> 0:08:06.560 other people have pitched that idea, and it just never 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:10.320 happened because in the summertime it's just a It really 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:15.080 kills the the the allure of having hard, firm, hard greens, 0:08:15.120 --> 0:08:17.160 because if you landed three feet short of some of 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:21.960 those greens or three yards short again in the summer, 0:08:21.960 --> 0:08:24.120 it just stops. Now they've done a lot since to 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:27.040 get the kukua a little tighter, and they use primo 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:31.080 and it's still though, is not you don't run the 0:08:31.080 --> 0:08:32.560 ball up, but in the winter time you can at 0:08:32.600 --> 0:08:35.800 least see balls and that a running ball will move, 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:37.640 and that's that's nice because there's just some of the 0:08:37.679 --> 0:08:40.560 most beautiful approaches. The other thing that kind of got 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:42.920 screwed with over time is every green has like a 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:46.960 little raw style ridge in front, and that that wasn't Thomas. 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:51.679 Thomas had very clean approach. He and Bell built their 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:54.760 approaches right into the green. But years of top dressing 0:08:54.840 --> 0:08:59.080 built these little rims or or up slopes or false 0:08:59.080 --> 0:09:01.480 fronts or whatever you want column and they're awful because 0:09:01.679 --> 0:09:05.160 I mean, I remember as a kid when you know 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:07.280 you're hitting a forewood into some of these holes that 0:09:07.320 --> 0:09:09.679 are really long, like eighteen, You hit the most beautiful 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:11.680 shot and it just hits that little upslope. Sometimes they 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:13.880 would come back at you and you're like, oh God, 0:09:13.920 --> 0:09:16.680 that was such a good shot and a stupid coculea 0:09:16.760 --> 0:09:21.120 ruins it. So coculea was brought there for one of 0:09:21.200 --> 0:09:25.080 two reasons. Don't really know which one is. After all 0:09:25.080 --> 0:09:27.960 these years, I still don't know the actual reason, but 0:09:28.320 --> 0:09:31.920 either one of them works either. For the polo fields 0:09:32.320 --> 0:09:36.720 that were next door to the first fairway, is one 0:09:37.520 --> 0:09:41.200 version that it was a grass sought to be tougher 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:43.840 to handle the polo. I think that's a less likely reason. 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:46.760 The more likely is that after the big flood that 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:51.080 went through the course in thirty eight, Willie Hunter the 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:55.080 pro was kind of charged with trying to reinforce the 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:57.560 seventh and eighth holes and prevent them from from washing 0:09:57.640 --> 0:09:59.760 out and having more damage. They were damaged in that 0:09:59.800 --> 0:10:04.960 flo and they use kukuya to stabilize the banks and 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:08.560 be a tougher grass, And I think that's the more 0:10:08.760 --> 0:10:11.000 likely story. And then it's spread through the course and 0:10:11.080 --> 0:10:13.880 spread through all of West la. If you ever round here, 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:16.320 you can look at a parking sign and the grass 0:10:16.480 --> 0:10:19.800 actually grows up through the railing and comes out the top. 0:10:19.920 --> 0:10:22.760 So it's it's just a noxious, brutal weed. And I 0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:24.720 don't think there's any way you could get it off 0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:27.240 the property now, I mean it would take I mean 0:10:27.280 --> 0:10:30.440 it's so that the root structure is incredible. It just 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:33.120 keeps coming back. But I do think you could, and 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:34.959 it makes a great fairway grass. And they've learned to 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:38.240 manage it, by the way. You know, when I was 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:41.280 younger and playing there, they'd scalped and it was so puffy. 0:10:41.760 --> 0:10:44.080 I mean, you would be exhausted after eighteen holes, just 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:47.880 because like walking on a sponge. Now it's it's managed better. 0:10:49.280 --> 0:10:52.599 I wouldn't lick your ball or anything out there. Just 0:10:52.760 --> 0:10:55.160 premo is probably not a great thing to ingest. But 0:10:56.160 --> 0:10:59.800 I would say that that ultimately, if you could get 0:10:59.840 --> 0:11:05.040 the approaches regrasped, smooth out that transition to the front 0:11:05.080 --> 0:11:08.520 of the green, and it would be it would just 0:11:08.559 --> 0:11:11.800 make the course so much better, and it would allow 0:11:11.840 --> 0:11:14.360 you to really have those greens nice and firm and 0:11:14.960 --> 0:11:17.840 still let somebody land a ball short for those front pins. 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:21.560 So let's talk a little bit about George Thomas. He said, 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:27.160 what an amazing person in life he led. Tell us 0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:31.400 a little bit about George Thomas. You know, his upbringing 0:11:32.240 --> 0:11:35.160 and then his eventual move out to California. 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:40.320 Well, he made his living the old fashioned way. He 0:11:40.400 --> 0:11:44.000 was the executor of the family estate. But you know, 0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:47.560 the beautiful thing about George Thomas is that, you know, 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:51.360 he only lived fifty nine years. And yeah, he was 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:54.040 born into money and never really had to work. But 0:11:54.760 --> 0:11:57.320 boy did he do a lot in his fifty nine years. 0:11:57.320 --> 0:12:06.640 From serving our country and uh to experimenting with roses 0:12:06.800 --> 0:12:13.480 was one of his obsessions. Golf architecture, we know, flyfish, shoating, yachting. 0:12:13.679 --> 0:12:19.040 He had a nice yacht. Dogs. He was into tobri 0:12:19.160 --> 0:12:22.360 I have a trophy up here somewhere in my collection 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:27.960 that his grandson gave me. Uh uh, English shutters I 0:12:28.000 --> 0:12:30.840 believe were his his dog of choice that he showed. Now. 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:32.320 I don't know if he was out in the ring, 0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:34.960 you know, I don't. I don't actually know that part. 0:12:35.040 --> 0:12:38.600 But he had a he had an interest in dogs, 0:12:39.000 --> 0:12:41.600 he got. He just was a busy guy. He really 0:12:41.640 --> 0:12:42.480 did a lot, and. 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:44.240 He wrote a lot too. 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:47.280 He did. He wrote two books on Roses one on 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:50.439 fly fishing and of course golf architecture in America, and 0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:55.640 multiple articles for various publications, and very inter goal in 0:12:56.480 --> 0:12:59.320 you know, the creation of Pine Valley. A founding member, 0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:02.040 a friend of Dry George Crump was out there quite 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:05.320 a bit. You know. One of my real regrets is 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:08.160 there was a little blurb and I cannot find it. 0:13:08.440 --> 0:13:10.520 When I went back to the USGA after I had 0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:13.440 done the Captain and went through the library, I found 0:13:13.480 --> 0:13:17.120 some things that answered some questions that I could not 0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:23.160 answer in the book. And one of those though, was 0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:27.400 a blurb that I I know, I'm not hallucinating, but 0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:29.520 it made clear that he was coming back to help 0:13:30.600 --> 0:13:34.320 William Flynn with the alternate green on number nine, and 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:38.760 just drives me nuts that I don't don't have that 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:42.720 little blurb that he made the trip back. So he 0:13:42.800 --> 0:13:46.120 was very devoted to that place, and he mentioned George 0:13:46.120 --> 0:13:49.200 Crump and his his book and obviously tilling Hast and Ross. 0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:51.720 He had a lot of experience. The one question I've 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:55.319 never been able to answer is during and I speculated 0:13:55.360 --> 0:13:58.960 on in the book is when he was in World 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:03.280 War One. He must have there must have been a 0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:06.679 way he saw the great links because he refers to 0:14:06.720 --> 0:14:10.319 some of them, and he clearly was inspired by elements 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:15.080 of golf there, but he never really wrote anything about 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:18.600 any trips, in particular the way Tilling has did about 0:14:18.640 --> 0:14:22.040 going to visit Tom Morris and took photos of him 0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:25.000 and all that stuff. And so I don't think he 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:26.960 got all this through a w. Tilly ass. I think 0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:29.200 he had to have gotten some of it through experience. 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:32.560 So he was really if you look at the golden 0:14:32.600 --> 0:14:37.680 age of American golf was you had kind of McDonald 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:46.000 leads Fowler, and then you had also Ross doing early 0:14:46.080 --> 0:14:49.000 work in the nineteen tents. Obviously he had his work 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:53.040 at Marion, So he was more if you would, you'd 0:14:53.120 --> 0:14:56.600 kind of classify him as almost like the second generation 0:14:56.840 --> 0:15:00.280 of the first generation of American golf architect in a 0:15:00.320 --> 0:15:04.080 way where he had the benefit of having people that 0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:05.920 somewhat mentored him. 0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:09.240 Correct. Yeah, and he made that very clear in his 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:10.040 own writings. 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:13.000 Yeah, and who were those people, well. 0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:16.960 He Tilling, Hast and Ross he singled out as having 0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:21.080 been huge parts of his life. Crump, Hugh Wilson, the 0:15:21.080 --> 0:15:28.600 whole Philadelphia gang there were really vital to his education. 0:15:28.840 --> 0:15:32.440 And then he attempted and built the golf course on 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:36.040 the family estate at White Marsh, which still exists today. 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:40.240 So it was a combination of all those people. I'm 0:15:40.240 --> 0:15:45.800 sure William Flynn was another person that was vital to 0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:48.080 his education at the time. 0:15:48.440 --> 0:15:52.760 With Pine Valley that was you know of course that 0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:55.440 you know, there are shades of all different types of 0:15:56.320 --> 0:15:59.400 all different architects in there. You know, obviously like health 0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:02.920 half acre is a tilling half feature or believed to 0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:06.000 be what what would you say are the things that 0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:09.080 that screamed George Thomas at Pine Valley other than the 0:16:09.160 --> 0:16:11.000 ninth graden You know. 0:16:11.000 --> 0:16:13.840 I never really thought of it that way. I can't. 0:16:13.880 --> 0:16:17.200 I can't say there's anything that I would I would 0:16:18.760 --> 0:16:21.520 attribute to him. It's just hard to tell, you know, 0:16:21.560 --> 0:16:23.960 when you have you look at Pine Valley and you 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:28.440 look at Colt drawings, and you you know, some things 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:32.480 are maybe attributed to Crump that that weren't his. It's 0:16:32.520 --> 0:16:36.600 it's just it's hard to say. For me, honestly, I 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:41.680 would I would certainly look at the twelfth hole is 0:16:42.040 --> 0:16:45.920 the one hole that I've always wondered how much that 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:49.880 influenced Thomas or how much Thomas influenced that because it 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:54.320 has some shades of the tenth or Riviera, sort of 0:16:54.520 --> 0:16:59.560 sort of almost playing away and taking the longer path, 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:04.720 uh for the approach shot into the better angle into 0:17:04.760 --> 0:17:09.200 the green, which is is a I think the most 0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:12.040 fascinating thing he did with with the tenth of Riviera, 0:17:12.080 --> 0:17:16.280 and with that more people don't like to try and do, 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:18.920 which is which is create a hole where there's obviously 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:23.080 the instinct to take the short route, but if you 0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:27.080 actually take the longer path, which is so against anybody's 0:17:27.119 --> 0:17:30.680 instinct as a golfer, uh, but you get this better angle. 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:32.440 We tried to do it on the on the twelfth 0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:35.280 at rust A Canyon and just just a total ripoff 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:39.120 of that concept from from Thomas and and a little 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:41.600 bit of Pine Valley. Although I don't I don't really 0:17:41.640 --> 0:17:43.840 know if it works on twelve at Pine Valley because 0:17:43.840 --> 0:17:47.440 I've I've hit it over to the right. I don't. 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:51.760 I it's I haven't seen it since Fazzio uh took 0:17:51.760 --> 0:17:54.000 a dump on it. But I can't imagine it's looking 0:17:54.040 --> 0:17:56.679 too great these days from every what everybody says. But uh, 0:17:57.200 --> 0:18:00.439 but I love that concept that because it just it's 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:05.440 just not what anybody, especially now with carry distances, anybody 0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:07.280 wants to do you It's like, why would I make 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:10.000 the hole longer to get a better angle? And it 0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:14.199 just it's something that especially good players just just loath doing, 0:18:14.880 --> 0:18:19.639 even when they've seen it play out in a way 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:22.719 that you know that, yeah, if you take if you're 0:18:22.720 --> 0:18:28.480 gonna play the whole ten times and you're gonna you're 0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:30.560 gonna your average score is going to be better, and 0:18:30.600 --> 0:18:33.000 you're gonna take out double bogie and you're gonna take 0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:36.439 out and maybe you're gonna make a few, you know, 0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:40.919 fewer birdies or no eagle. But over the over the 0:18:40.960 --> 0:18:45.480 long haul, playing safe, playing the longer way in uh, 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:47.560 is the better way to do it. It's just still 0:18:48.600 --> 0:18:51.760 fascinating that that if the hole is done right, when 0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:55.960 when the golfer just just resists that and uh, that 0:18:55.960 --> 0:18:59.320 that that he got from probably from Pine Valley and 0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:02.520 tried to carry Riviera is to me really really need 0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:06.919 and something not enough. The architects explore with especially with 0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:08.560 short part fours. 0:19:08.280 --> 0:19:12.560 Well the idea too. You know, it's an architecture that 0:19:12.640 --> 0:19:17.439 reveals your reveals itself after multiple plays, that counterintuitive nature 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:20.520 of it. The first time you play it, everybody's going 0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:23.719 to hit it up that can hit it is going 0:19:23.760 --> 0:19:25.960 to hit it up into the spot that the architect 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:28.960 wants you to really hit it and realize this is 0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:31.119 the best spot to be. And it could take a 0:19:31.160 --> 0:19:34.679 long time to figure out, Wait, I should play way left. 0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:39.120 And obviously the strategy for tour professionals that Riviera has 0:19:39.200 --> 0:19:43.960 changed drastically because of the immense carry distance. And I 0:19:44.040 --> 0:19:47.720 just want to clarify that before any any of our 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:48.760 friends come at us. 0:19:49.000 --> 0:19:51.280 Yeah, and that's very recent, by the way too. I mean, 0:19:51.480 --> 0:19:53.880 and that's why I've always I wish the whole would 0:19:53.880 --> 0:19:56.680 be lengthened fifteen twenty yards, so I just. 0:19:56.680 --> 0:19:58.760 They could put it back on the on the roof 0:19:58.840 --> 0:19:59.800 of the clubhouse. 0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:02.560 Well, I wouldn't go quite that far. I just go 0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:05.080 there's a nice little pocket on the other side of 0:20:05.119 --> 0:20:06.720 the Gargantua. 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:07.480 County up there too. 0:20:08.359 --> 0:20:11.840 They well they might well know. I wouldn't be surprised. Uh, 0:20:12.400 --> 0:20:14.399 they have cheat off. The club used to have a 0:20:14.440 --> 0:20:18.600 green Monster tournament and they did create a tea up 0:20:18.640 --> 0:20:20.679 on the on the deck of the clubhouse. They actually 0:20:20.680 --> 0:20:23.520 built a platform and and and put a mat down. 0:20:23.560 --> 0:20:27.600 It was pretty wild, and uh, I'm not sure liability wise, 0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:29.199 is the smartest thing to do, but it was. It 0:20:29.240 --> 0:20:29.840 was pretty cool. 0:20:30.600 --> 0:20:35.320 So he's he's in Philly, he's he builds Marion, which 0:20:35.359 --> 0:20:39.000 was up in Massachusetts. He then goes to World War One, 0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:42.480 and then as I understand it correctly, he builds White 0:20:42.560 --> 0:20:46.920 Marsh Valley after that, right, I. 0:20:46.880 --> 0:20:49.239 Don't remember the exact year, but because that's correct, and 0:20:49.280 --> 0:20:51.760 then also Spring Lake in New Jersey. 0:20:52.800 --> 0:20:56.800 M and then what prompts him to move to California. 0:20:56.600 --> 0:21:00.280 Well, according to him, I mean, he was pretty bang up. 0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:02.760 He crashed three times, he was lucky to survive. 0:21:04.000 --> 0:21:06.160 He was a pilot, right, Yeah, he was a. 0:21:06.119 --> 0:21:12.080 Pilot, crashed three crashes, he did, and uh, there's there's 0:21:12.200 --> 0:21:14.719 that that he he was his famous quote as he 0:21:14.760 --> 0:21:17.120 was damn lucky to survive as more of a miracle 0:21:17.160 --> 0:21:20.600 of something like that to Zane Gray, the famous author 0:21:20.600 --> 0:21:24.639 who was his buddy out at the out of Catalina 0:21:24.800 --> 0:21:30.560 flight of deep sea fishing, and uh, he was clearly 0:21:31.840 --> 0:21:34.160 never quite the same from that. He had health problems 0:21:34.160 --> 0:21:37.080 and he died at fifty nine. And there were a 0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:40.199 lot of references to various times even when he was 0:21:40.240 --> 0:21:43.600 out here. You know, he never got to Stamford, which 0:21:43.600 --> 0:21:46.320 he did with Billy Bell and and because of his health, 0:21:46.359 --> 0:21:48.720 and and he never really quite got the south course 0:21:48.760 --> 0:21:51.720 at La Country Club going because of his health. And 0:21:52.520 --> 0:21:54.639 he did plans which are all gone, of course we 0:21:54.720 --> 0:21:57.520 never saw. I never know. They're in the dump somewhere. 0:21:58.880 --> 0:22:02.320 But he wanted to move west in search of better 0:22:02.400 --> 0:22:06.360 rose growing conditions and probably just better weather to kind 0:22:06.359 --> 0:22:09.320 of enjoy. And he was banged up, but the roses 0:22:09.320 --> 0:22:13.000 were the primary reason, according to him and all sources 0:22:13.040 --> 0:22:16.920 that he came here in search of better conditions for 0:22:17.040 --> 0:22:21.280 hybridizing roses, which was a huge passion of his. 0:22:22.960 --> 0:22:26.840 So it would you say he was a avid rose gardener, 0:22:27.040 --> 0:22:29.679 I feel like that might be under selling it. He 0:22:29.840 --> 0:22:34.240 was one of the best rose gardeners in the entire world. Correct. 0:22:35.359 --> 0:22:37.840 Well, it turned out that, yeah, one of the roses 0:22:37.880 --> 0:22:40.560 that he created wasn't a very attractive rose, but it 0:22:40.680 --> 0:22:43.879 ended up ended up doctor Hughey, who was sort of 0:22:43.880 --> 0:22:46.480 his mentor. He named it after It's it's like a 0:22:46.560 --> 0:22:50.400 dark red not it's just not a very attractive rose, 0:22:50.440 --> 0:22:54.720 but the rootstock of it kind of the And I 0:22:54.760 --> 0:22:57.280 apologize to any rosaria and listening to this because I 0:22:57.520 --> 0:23:01.240 still don't understand this, but it essentially is the core 0:23:01.440 --> 0:23:06.480 DNA of the plant that was used to as the 0:23:06.520 --> 0:23:12.120 basis for hybridizing a large majority of the roses by 0:23:12.160 --> 0:23:16.280 one of the main makers. And so because it contained 0:23:16.320 --> 0:23:19.720 elements that made the rose, did did different things for 0:23:19.760 --> 0:23:22.960 different roses but made them hardy. So it was kind 0:23:22.960 --> 0:23:24.920 of accidental, but it ended up being one of the 0:23:24.960 --> 0:23:29.080 most important roses ever created. And then yes, he hybridized 0:23:30.119 --> 0:23:34.200 multiple others. In Is he had this incredible estate which 0:23:34.200 --> 0:23:38.280 has now been subdivided. It appears to me I haven't 0:23:38.440 --> 0:23:40.280 been up there, but I did go there one day. 0:23:41.600 --> 0:23:43.920 I just walked into the backyard, which I can't believe 0:23:43.920 --> 0:23:47.840 I did in hindsight, but where you could still see 0:23:47.840 --> 0:23:50.159