Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet as a production
Speaker 1: of iHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and
Speaker 1: this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. Joey.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to the show. I've missed you. It's been
Speaker 1: a minute.
Speaker 2: Hey Bridget, it has missed you too.
Speaker 1: How have thinks been in Joey Land? What's new? What's up?
Speaker 1: How have you been?
Speaker 2: Things have been good.
Speaker 3: I actually had a new show launch that I worked.
Speaker 2: On through iHeart let's call it Afterlives.
Speaker 3: The first episode is of now if people want to
Speaker 3: check that out, would much appreciate it might be having
Speaker 3: a bit of a crossover with There Are No Girls
Speaker 3: on the Internet the next couple of weeks. But yeah,
Speaker 3: it's been a you know, been a busy couple of
Speaker 3: weeks with that.
Speaker 1: I'm so excited. I think that it's going to be
Speaker 1: It's like one of the most anticipated podcasts for a while,
Speaker 1: so people should definitely check it out. You'll hear more
Speaker 1: here about this soon, but definitely check it out. I'm
Speaker 1: really excited about it. And that's a great segue into
Speaker 1: talking about some of the news that folks might have
Speaker 1: missed on the Internet this week. We actually got a
Speaker 1: little bit of good news that will actually be a
Speaker 1: really good thing for survivors of domestic violence and their children.
Speaker 1: That's the passage of the Safe Connections Act. This will
Speaker 1: require telecommunications companies to adopt programs for people dealing with
Speaker 1: the horrors of domestic violence and other similar crimes, including
Speaker 1: removals from family billing plans within two business days upon request,
Speaker 1: low cost emergency phone replacements for domestic violence victims, and
Speaker 1: cloaking of call and text logs to domestic violence hotlines
Speaker 1: and shelters. Domestic violence organizations are really cheering this new legislation,
Speaker 1: and I think it really goes to show how big
Speaker 1: of a role technology can play in domestic violence and
Speaker 1: what a role it has to play in helping get
Speaker 1: people who are experiencing that into safer situations. Jessica Rosenwarsol,
Speaker 1: who became the first woman to lead the FCC back
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty one, told NBC News when I took
Speaker 1: over the Federal Communications Commission, these are not the things
Speaker 1: I thought I would be doing. But if you're trying
Speaker 1: to separate from someone who's abusing you, one of the
Speaker 1: things that you want to do is securely get out
Speaker 1: that family plan and set up your own communications. Now,
Speaker 1: this is actually kind of a common thing. According to
Speaker 1: the National Domestic Violence Hotline, financial abuse exists in ninety
Speaker 1: eight percent of relationships where there is domestic violence. And
Speaker 1: so if you are on a shared phone plan with
Speaker 1: somebody and they have access to how and when you
Speaker 1: use your cell phone because they are financially abusing you
Speaker 1: as well as physically abusing you, that would be a
Speaker 1: real barrier to you getting to safety. The National Domestic
Speaker 1: Violence Hotline CEO Katie Ray Jones said that cell phones
Speaker 1: are a frequently used tool of control and manipulation in
Speaker 1: relationships where there is domestic violence, and so again this
Speaker 1: is something that will really lower a barrier to folks
Speaker 1: getting safety and getting help that they need. Public Knowledge,
Speaker 1: a nonprofit that promotes freedom of expression and open Internet
Speaker 1: and access to affordable communications tools, said implementing the Safe
Speaker 1: Connections Act enables safe and secure line separation processes, allows
Speaker 1: for safer access to critical support resources by omitting calls
Speaker 1: to sensitive phone numbers from consumer facing call records, improves
Speaker 1: protection against disconnection, and provides financial support through the Lifeline
Speaker 1: program to ensure that survivors can remain connected. So they
Speaker 1: mentioned the Lifeline program. The FCC manages the Lifeline program
Speaker 1: and partnership with self service providers for survivors who are
Speaker 1: low income. The program offers free or reduced price phones
Speaker 1: and data plans and minutes for eligible low income individuals.
Speaker 1: So one thing to know about this, even though I
Speaker 1: do think it's a good step in the right direction
Speaker 1: and I'm celebrating this for sure, but one thing to
Speaker 1: know is that it really depends on what state you're in.
Speaker 1: Per Public Knowledge, these rules only allow for survivors to
Speaker 1: self certify their status as the survivor of domestic violence
Speaker 1: to service providers explicitly allowed by a state. Public Knowledge
Speaker 1: is calling upon every state to follow the example set
Speaker 1: by New York and stand with the survivors of domestic
Speaker 1: violence by acting to swiftly enable self certification.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's really great to hear, honestly, Like I I
Speaker 3: feel like, at least for me, like thinking about cell
Speaker 3: phones and cell phone usage and just one of those things,
Speaker 3: it's like a little bit of a blind spot for
Speaker 3: me sometimes, like it is something that is so ingrained
Speaker 3: into everything that we do and to how we communicate
Speaker 3: with people, and it's like, I don't know. I like,
Speaker 3: I don't I don't think about my own phone plan
Speaker 3: that much. Like I'll be honest, like I'm still on
Speaker 3: my family's plan, and like I'm lucky where I have,
Speaker 3: like you know, a good situation with my family where
Speaker 3: I can stay on their phone plan.
Speaker 2: But yeah, it is such a it's so.
Speaker 3: Important to how we communicate and how we kind of
Speaker 3: find safety, and it's yeah, it's really great to hear
Speaker 3: that there's at least seems to be the start of.
Speaker 2: Some sort of structure in place for survivors.
Speaker 1: Definitely, And to your point about not always thinking about
Speaker 1: your cell phone. Do you remember last month when they
Speaker 1: did that test of the National Emergency Alert System where
Speaker 1: all the phones made a noise at the same time,
Speaker 1: they actually have to put out statements that were like, listen,
Speaker 1: if you're in a situation where you have a secret
Speaker 1: cell phone for your own safety, because you're being abused
Speaker 1: or you're not in a safe situation, be sure to
Speaker 1: turn that phone off because that phone is going to
Speaker 1: emit a loud noise at this time in October, so yeah,
Speaker 1: just be aware. Like, yeah, I think it can be
Speaker 1: I agree that it can be difficult to remember cell
Speaker 1: phones and that folks in situations where they're not safe
Speaker 1: for them. It is a critical lifeline, and I think
Speaker 1: it's just so important that we really have robust programs
Speaker 1: that take into effect the role that technology like cell
Speaker 1: phones really can play and survivors get into safety. We
Speaker 1: need to continue to fund those programs. We need to
Speaker 1: make sure they're as robust as they can be because
Speaker 1: people need them, their lives depend on it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and I yeah, I remember that like a
Speaker 3: month ago, and yeah, I'll be honest, like I didn't
Speaker 3: even think about it until afterwards. I was I figure,
Speaker 3: I saw something like on Twitter talking about it, and
Speaker 3: I don't know if you saw bridget, but there was
Speaker 3: like I remember some headline that was going around that
Speaker 3: was about like Amish communities and like people's phones going
Speaker 3: off and Amish communities and like getting outed for having phones.
Speaker 3: But it was like it was so weird because that
Speaker 3: was going around is like like almost its kind of
Speaker 3: like a meme. And then at the same time, it
Speaker 3: was like yeado, there were people that were like actively
Speaker 3: put in danger because of something that seemed so routine
Speaker 3: and normal to so many of us, like, yeah, no,
Speaker 3: that's it's good to hear some good news for once, Like, yeah,
Speaker 3: I always.
Speaker 1: News and sometimes the tech news can be so grim.
Speaker 1: So you know, I always say this on the show,
Speaker 1: We've got to take our double's where we can get them.
Speaker 1: I am a big believer in like celebrating when what
Speaker 1: it feels like some progress has been made to that point.
Speaker 1: We have rolled out some new rules around AI. So
Speaker 1: YouTube just rolled out some new rules around ai I
Speaker 1: rated content on the platform and a blog. YouTube said
Speaker 1: that creators that don't disclose whether they've used AI tools
Speaker 1: to make altered or synthetic videos will face penalties, including
Speaker 1: having their content removed or suspension from the platform's revenue
Speaker 1: sharing program. Two spokespeople from YouTube said this is especially
Speaker 1: important in cases where the content discussed a sensitive topics
Speaker 1: such as elections, ongoing conflicts, and public health crises or
Speaker 1: public officials. So, yeah, that sounds great, But I will
Speaker 1: add that these are the same people who pretty recently,
Speaker 1: just back in June said that election denialism is aokay
Speaker 1: on their platform. You know, they announced that they were
Speaker 1: going to stop taking down content that claims the twenty
Speaker 1: twenty election was stolen or rigged back in June. So
Speaker 1: I guess, girl, I guess that's it. That's what y'all
Speaker 1: are saying, Like fine, And I guess it's one of
Speaker 1: those things where it's like it is hard for me
Speaker 1: to take them seriously at their word when Yeah, on
Speaker 1: one hand, they're saying election nihilism is okay on the platform,
Speaker 1: but they're also when it comes to AI, saying like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: it's important that you disclose that you've used AI when
Speaker 1: you're talking about something sensitive like an election or a
Speaker 1: public official, which one isn't right, Like, it seems like
Speaker 1: those are two different, two different lanes you're in. But whatever.
Speaker 1: So last week, Facebook also announced a new rule stipulating
Speaker 1: that political campaigns advertising on Facebook would have to disclose
Speaker 1: when they used AI in political or social issue ads
Speaker 1: to synthetically depict people or events.
Speaker 3: That seems concerning that they're letting. I mean, I guess
Speaker 3: it's hard to just be like you can't do that
Speaker 3: at all.
Speaker 2: But I don't know.
Speaker 3: I personally don't think that if you're running for office
Speaker 3: you should be using like AI content at all. Like,
Speaker 3: if you can't get real people who talk for you,
Speaker 3: maybe you should not be running for office.
Speaker 1: I would agree, Joey. I completely agree. I mean, like,
Speaker 1: and this is not even like a It's not like
Speaker 1: we're talking about like a far away reality. A pro
Speaker 1: Ron deasantis pack already used an AI generated version of
Speaker 1: Trump's voice in a campaign ad. So yeah, it's it's
Speaker 1: I agree. I think that if I were making the rules,
Speaker 1: I would say that no campaign should be able to
Speaker 1: use AI generated deep fakes or voice deep fakes. The
Speaker 1: Facebook rule does include carveouts for if the AI is
Speaker 1: used for like a small cosmetic thing, right, like you've
Speaker 1: used AI to clean up a photo or to crop
Speaker 1: a photo a certain way. They do allow carve outs
Speaker 1: for that. But I agree with you. I think that
Speaker 1: like allowing that, I don't know how, I don't think
Speaker 1: that's great. And I think that it really signals like
Speaker 1: where we're at on the issue of AI as it
Speaker 1: pertains to election misinformation. A recent report from the Center
Speaker 1: for Technology Innovation found that we're really not prepared for
Speaker 1: the wave of disinformation and misinformation that is AI generated.
Speaker 1: Darrell West, a senior fellow at the same Technology Innovation,
Speaker 1: said there's going to be a tsunami disinformation in the
Speaker 1: upcoming election. Basically, anybody can use AI to create fake
Speaker 1: videos and audio tapes, and it's going to be almost
Speaker 1: impossible to distinguish the real from the fake. So it's
Speaker 1: scary and it's real and it's happening, and we do
Speaker 1: a lot of talking and handering, and I will say
Speaker 1: that like we have. I am hopeful and believe that
Speaker 1: we have started to have conversations about it. You know,
Speaker 1: I think from where we were in conversations about AI today,
Speaker 1: back from like a couple of months ago, I think
Speaker 1: that gone are the conversations that are like just all hype,
Speaker 1: like this is going to be so great, people are
Speaker 1: going to make so much money, Like this is going
Speaker 1: to be so exciting, it's going to change everything. I
Speaker 1: think that we're I think that we are maybe done
Speaker 1: with that hype cycle that just posits that AI is
Speaker 1: this new, shiny piece of digital magic that we all
Speaker 1: should be really excited about, like a parlor trick. I
Speaker 1: think now we're in the part of the conversation where
Speaker 1: it's like, Okay, well, how do we really need to
Speaker 1: be thinking about this in real world application? How is
Speaker 1: this actually going to impact us? So I am hopeful
Speaker 1: that the conversation has really turned to a place where
Speaker 1: people are concerned and want to start getting some guardrails
Speaker 1: in place before it's too late.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, yeah, I know you're You're totally right, though I
Speaker 3: feel like I haven't all of the kind of various
Speaker 3: news cycle things that have come out about II, like
Speaker 3: in the past month, Like none of it's been positive.
Speaker 3: I don't think I've heard a single like positive AI story.
Speaker 2: Something I remember.
Speaker 3: I know there was a Sury listener that was about
Speaker 3: like the issue of ownership of content and you know,
Speaker 3: the fact that a lot of these AI technology they're
Speaker 3: out now, they're relying on training models that are just
Speaker 3: sort of indiscriminately taking content from the Internet, and you know,
Speaker 3: there's a lot of questions about copyright and who owns,
Speaker 3: you know, intellectual property all of that. And it was
Speaker 3: basically saying like if AI companies have to start like
Speaker 3: paying for this stuff, if they need to start actually
Speaker 3: having regulations in place, like they're not going to profit
Speaker 3: from it, which is like something that seems super.
Speaker 2: Obvious, like you can't just steal stuff.
Speaker 3: You actually like you're not gonna make money if you're
Speaker 3: I don't know, like, yeah, if your entire model is
Speaker 3: being able to like steal everything and then you're making
Speaker 3: money off of it.
Speaker 2: No shit, you're gonna make a ton of money.
Speaker 3: And then if you were suddenly taking away the ability
Speaker 3: to steal things, you're not gonna make as much money.
Speaker 2: But yeah, no, I think I want to feel positive
Speaker 2: about this.
Speaker 3: I do think that people like the reception of AI
Speaker 3: and the limits of AI too, and what it can
Speaker 3: be used for is starting to change.
Speaker 2: And it's like good to see that.
Speaker 3: We'll see if there's actually any sort of like consequequences
Speaker 3: I guess to these companies that comes out of this,
Speaker 3: because again, like it does concern me that they're saying,
Speaker 3: like you just have to label that it's using AI,
Speaker 3: and it's still sort of allowing these campaigns to use AI,
Speaker 3: and like you, oh, they will if they if it's
Speaker 3: something that they think is going to help them, they're
Speaker 3: going to use it. And like you said that Desanta's
Speaker 3: campaign already has. There have been a couple notable incidents
Speaker 3: within the past month of certain groups or people using
Speaker 3: AI generated images to try to, you know, construct an
Speaker 3: image of something happening that is not accurate or is
Speaker 3: not you know, entirely actual. We've already seen that happen.
Speaker 3: Every time it's happened, they've gotten called out for it.
Speaker 3: But at the same time, it keeps happening, and it
Speaker 3: definitely impacts how people see reality.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's it's still concerned.
Speaker 3: I'm still definitely concerned, But I guess like it's good
Speaker 3: to see that, like, you know, people speaking out about this,
Speaker 3: and people fighting back and people trying to just sort
Speaker 3: of like perserve the ability to speak the truth in
Speaker 3: these sort of situations is at least going somewhere at
Speaker 3: least there seems to be some response to that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you bring up another good point of It's
Speaker 1: interesting to me how platforms like Facebook, YouTube, Google, they
Speaker 1: are like, oh, like, we'll just label it, Like I
Speaker 1: don't know. I think that now is a time for
Speaker 1: platforms to really like this should be in my book,
Speaker 1: that should be a come to Jesus moment where platforms
Speaker 1: are like, no, but really, how can we really keep
Speaker 1: this tsunami of misinformation at bay? I think that if
Speaker 1: platforms are allowed to be the only forces setting the agenda,
Speaker 1: I don't know how far we'll ever go. Right, It's
Speaker 1: clear to me that we need some combination of platforms,
Speaker 1: but then also government, right, like, because platforms are never
Speaker 1: going to swing big if they're grading their own homework essentially,
Speaker 1: and so yeah, I think now is the time for
Speaker 1: platforms to really make responsible policies. I am not always
Speaker 1: very op a mystic when we are when like the
Speaker 1: only thing standing between us and like a tsunami of
Speaker 1: misinformation is like whether or not Mark Zuckerberg is going
Speaker 1: to do the right thing, or whether or not Elon
Speaker 1: Musk is going to do the right thing or the
Speaker 1: smart thing or whatever.
Speaker 3: But I don't think that Mark Zuckerberg cares about the
Speaker 3: integrity of.
Speaker 2: I whatever.
Speaker 1: In no. I like, it's so funny. This came up
Speaker 1: in a conversation they had the other day about platforms
Speaker 1: that I think are just like garbage. I don't think
Speaker 1: that Facebook is like redeemable. I think that like they're
Speaker 1: at like Google, you know, I have my issues with Google,
Speaker 1: but they do provide Services' is like, oh, it's the
Speaker 1: most used search engine in the world. I get it,
Speaker 1: Like they're they're actually doing things. Facebook, I would argue,
Speaker 1: doesn't actually produce a product that like actually makes anybody's
Speaker 1: lives meaningfully better. They only produce like chaos and darkness.
Speaker 1: At the very best you're gonna get is like an
Speaker 1: update from some girl you went to high school with
Speaker 1: or something like. They're not like they're not providing a
Speaker 1: good service. So like, yeah, I increasingly think that Facebook,
Speaker 1: if they truly wanted to do their part to create
Speaker 1: a more robust digital landscape, they would shut down.
Speaker 2: Totally agree.
Speaker 3: I do think it is really interesting that there was
Speaker 3: a while where Facebook Mark Zuckerberg was able to convince
Speaker 3: us that Facebook was this like super vital platform and
Speaker 3: I mean whatever, there's a larger conversation about social media
Speaker 3: and like the role of social media has played in
Speaker 3: the past cup like two decades. But yeah, like Facebook,
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I've seen the social network. I know Facebook
Speaker 3: started as a way for Mark Zuckerberg to like meet girls,
Speaker 3: like I don't.
Speaker 2: Yes, there was no day.
Speaker 3: With There's no way that was going to end up
Speaker 3: as like that was going to end well for humanity,
Speaker 3: And unfortunately we're seeing the extreme burg about how you
Speaker 3: know that's kind of played out. But it's like it
Speaker 3: never started as this thing that was meant to.
Speaker 2: Be like for the good of humanity.
Speaker 3: And it's so clear now that it's only caused chaos.
Speaker 3: And yeah, and I agree. I think I am pro
Speaker 3: Facebook shutting down. I you know, I will say, I
Speaker 3: do still have an account up there somewhere. I do
Speaker 3: not remember the last time I've opened it. It just
Speaker 3: doesn't have a purpose anymore other than just like creating chaos.
Speaker 1: The thing that you said about the social network, this
Speaker 1: is like a personal pet peeve of mine. A couple
Speaker 1: of years ago, Mark Zuckerberg, I don't remember where he
Speaker 1: said this, but he was like, back when I created Facebook,
Speaker 1: it was during the invasion of Iraq, and I really
Speaker 1: wanted there to be a platform where people could engage
Speaker 1: and robust debate about the issues. And I was like,
Speaker 1: shut the fuck up, no, you fucking liar. Like we
Speaker 1: all saw the social network. We all know that Facebook
Speaker 1: started as a platform called facematch. It was all about rating.
Speaker 1: The quote dogs in his dorm that it's his word.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 1: It was founded on toxicity and misogyny. And I just
Speaker 1: I thought it was really funny how he people really
Speaker 1: do think they're above reproach, that he thought that he
Speaker 1: was going to be able to completely rewrite history, as
Speaker 1: if he like could men in black flashy thing us
Speaker 1: all we'd all forget and we'd all be like, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: you know how the beginning of Facebook was the.
Speaker 2: Irate War Award winning movie. I'm sorry.
Speaker 3: Once you've had Jesse Eisenberg play you like there's no
Speaker 3: going back, it's just you're which love him as an actor,
Speaker 3: but like your image is ruined you. That's yeah, that's insane.
Speaker 3: I the audacity.
Speaker 1: Fun of fact. I have seen every movie that Jesse
Speaker 1: Eisenberg has ever been in love that. I did a
Speaker 1: Jesse Eisenberg film, Deep Dive, where I was gonna pick
Speaker 1: one person and I was going to watch their whole uber.
Speaker 1: I guess this was a couple of years ago now,
Speaker 1: so maybe I need to get back into it if
Speaker 1: there's any that have come out recently that I have missed.
Speaker 1: But hell of an actor, right was born to play
Speaker 1: Marker fanastic.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's fantastic in that movie. Andrew Garfield too. Oh yeah,
Speaker 3: I could still quote the whole groosey flip flops scene.
Speaker 2: But I love that. That's so funny. I God, I
Speaker 2: need to watch more of his movies.
Speaker 3: So like, last one I can think of is the
Speaker 3: Bad Superman movie that he was in.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I haven't seen it. I don't plan on
Speaker 2: watching it, but.
Speaker 3: It was like Luthor's kind of But I guess if
Speaker 3: he plays he plays Mark Zuckerberg and he plays like Luthor,
Speaker 3: there's like a.
Speaker 1: He has a tight Yes, let's take a quick break
Speaker 1: at her back. So, in other election news, former South
Speaker 1: Carolina governor Nikki Haley announced and quickly walked back my
Speaker 1: least favorite social media policy that people float. She promised
Speaker 1: that if she was elected, social media companies would be
Speaker 1: required to authenticate people's identity before allowing them to comment.
Speaker 1: So everything that you both on social media would be
Speaker 1: attached to your real government name and identity. What could
Speaker 1: go wrong? Right?
Speaker 2: That's horrible.
Speaker 3: That's a horrible idea as somebody again, as somebody who
Speaker 3: is a teenager on the internet. Two, Like, I don't
Speaker 3: think I ever used my real name like by Tumblr,
Speaker 3: never had my real na would touch that. I am
Speaker 3: grateful for the fact that I never had my real
Speaker 3: name attached to that.
Speaker 1: Like, oh my god, same like. And also I was
Speaker 1: like when I was like first exploring the Internet, I
Speaker 1: guess I was a scene kid or an emo kid,
Speaker 1: or whoever you want to say it. So it was
Speaker 1: it was always like lowercase X, upper case X, and
Speaker 1: then like maybe it's like an ass trick, some an asterisk,
Speaker 1: and then like the name like it was always the wildest,
Speaker 1: most cumbersome, elaborate names. And that was and that was
Speaker 1: how you showed up on social media back you know,
Speaker 1: back in my day.
Speaker 3: When we were in private country, when the scene kids
Speaker 3: ran exactly media, that was that was the peak.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, there would be.
Speaker 1: You would go to you would go to my I
Speaker 1: had my MySpace all tricked out so that when you
Speaker 1: went to it, first of all, it would definitely crash
Speaker 1: whatever browser you were using, but it would be like
Speaker 1: falling Stars and then like Panic at the Disco, but
Speaker 1: then the button deposit will be hidden, and so you
Speaker 1: had to listen, Like it was very important to me
Speaker 1: that you listened to this whole Panic at the Disco
Speaker 1: song while looking at my profile.
Speaker 2: That was such an era.
Speaker 3: I'm sure if I came across your MySpace page would
Speaker 3: have been like this person is so cool.
Speaker 2: I would say that genuine that it's not SORRYCS.
Speaker 3: I was like, I always wanted to be one of
Speaker 3: those people that could like totally like readdo like their tumbler,
Speaker 3: or like voting. And I'm terrible when it comes to
Speaker 3: like technology ironically, as I say on this tech podcast,
Speaker 3: but I can't, like I do not know how to
Speaker 3: code anything. But I always thought those were like the
Speaker 3: coolest blogs ever when you'd go to somebody's page and
Speaker 3: it was like.
Speaker 2: I was, you know, the big thing when I was on.
Speaker 3: Tumblr was like doctor Who, and it was always like
Speaker 3: the little like button that looked like the tartest Yeah,
Speaker 3: I like tind to get the disco playing.
Speaker 1: That was so fun. That is how I learned how
Speaker 1: to code. And actually there's an entire like generation of
Speaker 1: people that customizing profiles like MySpace is why they are
Speaker 1: coders now, why they work in tech now, Like it
Speaker 1: really was a crash course. Expressing yourself online was like
Speaker 1: an early tech crash course for I think an entire
Speaker 1: generation of us. Oh yeah, Nikki Haley said, we're gonna
Speaker 1: say that they have to make sure that every person
Speaker 1: on social media is verifying. Everybody gets a verified sign
Speaker 1: so we know exactly who they are. Haley said during
Speaker 1: a town hall with iowaccoers. What that will do is
Speaker 1: eliminate every Russian bot, Iranian bot, and Chinese bot. That's
Speaker 1: spreading all of this misinformation because it's the cheapest form
Speaker 1: of warfare for them. They're going to start to be
Speaker 1: more accountable because they know their family and their pastor
Speaker 1: is going to see it. It's going to get more civilized,
Speaker 1: Haley said. So none of this went overwhel It didn't
Speaker 1: go over well with really anybody right, like folks on
Speaker 1: the right, folks on the left. DeSantis told conservative political
Speaker 1: commentator Glenn Beck that he thought that her plan would
Speaker 1: pave the way for a social credit system akin to
Speaker 1: one in China. So eventually, Nikki Haley kind of dialed
Speaker 1: back her remarks on CNBC. She said that she thinks
Speaker 1: that life would be more civil if people were prohibited
Speaker 1: from posting anonymously, but that anonymous accounts would still be
Speaker 1: allowed for American citizens. She said, I don't mind anonymous
Speaker 1: American people having free speech. What I don't like is
Speaker 1: anonymous Russian or Chinese or Iranians having free speech.
Speaker 4: So yeah, the quiet part outline, No, if you're an
Speaker 4: Iran you can just yeah, like you don't even deserve
Speaker 4: free speech.
Speaker 1: So here's my thing about this, this idea that everybody
Speaker 1: needs to be verified with their real government name is
Speaker 1: not new. Trump floated it back when he was president,
Speaker 1: even though he also had no problem boosting anonymous accounts
Speaker 1: that he agreed with, but also at some point floated
Speaker 1: the idea that like, there should be a no anonymous
Speaker 1: accounts on social media. It comes up all the time,
Speaker 1: and it's one of those policies that maybe sounds good
Speaker 1: when you first hear it, you're like, oh, yeah, why not.
Speaker 1: But then when you actually think about it and think
Speaker 1: about the way the internet works, you start to realize
Speaker 1: truly what a dangerous disaster it would be if everything
Speaker 1: that you ever said on the Internet had you be
Speaker 1: associated with your first and last government name, and it
Speaker 1: would absolutely harm and silence and criminalize the most marginalized
Speaker 1: among US, people who are already harmed and criminalized in
Speaker 1: silence on social media platforms or face harsh consequences. We're
Speaker 1: speaking up folks like whistleblowers, activists, survivors of violence, dissidence,
Speaker 1: sex workers, The list goes on and on. David Green,
Speaker 1: director of Civil Liberties at the Electronic Frontier Foundation, put
Speaker 1: it really well, saying, for these individuals and the organizations
Speaker 1: that support them, secure anonymity is critical. It may literally
Speaker 1: save lives. Anonymous communications have an important place in our
Speaker 1: political and social discourse. Yeah. I just think that if
Speaker 1: it wasn't for anonymous accounts online, we would never have
Speaker 1: things like the Me Too movement. We probably never have
Speaker 1: things like filming police and posting it on social media.
Speaker 1: Think of all of the ways that anonymous accounts on
Speaker 1: social media have really pushed our social and political discourse farther.
Speaker 1: And I just think that again, it might seem like
Speaker 1: the kind of thing that sounds like it would work
Speaker 1: when you first hear it, but it would absolutely harm
Speaker 1: people who are marginalized.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, even going back to the story up
Speaker 3: at the top about the FCC and you know, talking
Speaker 3: about cell phones and survivors of domestic assault and our
Speaker 3: domestic abuse. Yeah, social media has been another tool where
Speaker 3: people can talk anonymously about their experiences. Do you know,
Speaker 3: like you said, there is a hypocrisy and that like
Speaker 3: you know, Trump was one of these people that floated
Speaker 3: this idea, and the same time, he's happy to uplift
Speaker 3: anonymous accounts when it serves his narrative. But I think, like,
Speaker 3: especially from the right right now, there's this weird like
Speaker 3: fixation on anonymity and the way that anonymity is used. Yeah,
Speaker 3: oftentimes as a tool for political activism and for social movements,
Speaker 3: but it's like, at the same time, it's just kind
Speaker 3: of a normal part of like online discourse. I mean,
Speaker 3: just think about like how many like really big like
Speaker 3: Twitter accounts that are like comedy accounts that are like
Speaker 3: totally anonymous, like.
Speaker 2: Like Drill.
Speaker 3: Like I feel like it would break the whole like
Speaker 3: kind of character if I knew who that person was
Speaker 3: in real life, Like I don't want to know their name.
Speaker 3: They're just this faceless like Twitter account that I see
Speaker 3: that always puts out like weird things that are like
Speaker 3: kind of funny.
Speaker 2: I yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 3: It's just such a like normal part of the Internet
Speaker 3: landscape that, yes, can be used for a tool for
Speaker 3: political activism. It is important in that sense, but at
Speaker 3: the same time, it's just a part of the way
Speaker 3: that people communicate.
Speaker 1: Yeah, imagine if instead of Drill it was Colin James
Speaker 1: in Richmond, Virginia. It's like these like anonymity has been
Speaker 1: part of the Internet for as long as the Internet
Speaker 1: has been a thing. I think that it's one of
Speaker 1: those things where people try to reverse that they might
Speaker 1: not really be thinking about the ways that would not
Speaker 1: just harm people, but also break our understanding of the Internet,
Speaker 1: like it is a foundational part of how we communicate
Speaker 1: online and certainly has a place in online discourse. The
Speaker 1: Internet would not be what it is today if not
Speaker 1: for anonymity. So, speaking of online discourse, the gaming publication
Speaker 1: PC gamer put out a roundup for their thirtieth anniversary,
Speaker 1: rounding up influential voices who worked on PC gamer in
Speaker 1: the last thirty years, and guess what they did not
Speaker 1: include a single woman. People were calling out influential women
Speaker 1: in the space, women like ROBERTA. Williams, who co founded
Speaker 1: Sierra Online, who is sometimes called like the Queen of
Speaker 1: adventure games, and Mabel Atis, who was the first video
Speaker 1: game writer. People were seriously pissed, like, I don't think
Speaker 1: I've ever seen such clear and quick condemnation of a
Speaker 1: piece of magazine writing in a long time. People were
Speaker 1: referencing that billy on the street name a dollar miss
Speaker 1: miss for a dollar name a woman. Also side note,
Speaker 1: if somebody with a microphone came up to me and
Speaker 1: asked me that, I don't think I think I would
Speaker 1: be like bread Pitt, wait.
Speaker 3: Would think I would totally same, absolutely and it was
Speaker 3: a great clip though. I love it.
Speaker 1: So this was going around on social media with people
Speaker 1: somewhat confusing the issue, saying that that particular thirtieth anniversary
Speaker 1: PC Gamer issue was meant to be celebrating the people
Speaker 1: who worked for the magazine PC Gamer, not the gaming
Speaker 1: industry in general. But here's my thing, I still feel
Speaker 1: like that is still not great, Like I don't know
Speaker 1: that PC Gamer should be celebrating how not diverse and
Speaker 1: how not inclusive their coverage has been for the last
Speaker 1: thirty years. In twenty twenty three, Andrew e Vernee, founder
Speaker 1: of What's Good Games, tweeted, feels like an intentional troll
Speaker 1: to not include any women in their list of influential
Speaker 1: voices over the last thirty years. It isn't possible. They
Speaker 1: just truly did not notice, Right? Is there not a
Speaker 1: single woman on the team responsible for the celebration issue
Speaker 1: and did not even one man on the team notice
Speaker 1: and say something, this is what backsliding and plane sight
Speaker 1: looks like. And I also just think overall, it like
Speaker 1: just does not represent where the gaming space is and
Speaker 1: is headed. There are tons of LGBTQ folks women, people
Speaker 1: of color in the gaming space right now. These people
Speaker 1: have been making games, but also writing about games, streaming
Speaker 1: about games, you know, taking on serious issues in the space,
Speaker 1: like that deep fake skin where popular women video game
Speaker 1: streamers were ridiculed with non consensual deep fakes of them.
Speaker 1: I just don't think that in this moment what we
Speaker 1: need is a celebration of homogeny in this moment. In
Speaker 1: a really thoughtful piece called Dear Video Game Industry, please
Speaker 1: name a woman, Alyssa Marconte writes, though the gamer gate
Speaker 1: trolls have lessened in number since twenty fourteen, or perhaps
Speaker 1: many of them have slunk back to their dank caves
Speaker 1: to hit their jewels, wank and blow the embedded food
Speaker 1: prumbs out of the crannies of their keyboard, the harassment
Speaker 1: that women in gaming experience is no less intense than
Speaker 1: it was nine years ago. The only way to stop
Speaker 1: that harassment is to make the existence of women and
Speaker 1: BIPOC and l GBTQI plus people so normal, so obvious,
Speaker 1: so in your face that objecting to it would be
Speaker 1: like fighting against a rip current. The phrase that we
Speaker 1: repeat at infinitum until we're blue in the face representation matters.
Speaker 1: That means that the game Awards shouldn't just try out
Speaker 1: the same well known male developers it does every year,
Speaker 1: or relegate co host Sidney Goodman to a side stage
Speaker 1: when she hands out the small awards like Best Esports
Speaker 1: Coach or Favorite Community. It means that ign Summer of
Speaker 1: Gaming live stream deck shouldn't feature four white men and
Speaker 1: PC gamers exhaustive look back on its thirty year history
Speaker 1: shouldn't be devoid of women contributors. It means that there
Speaker 1: should be more female voices elevated on Twitch, at industry
Speaker 1: events and developer meetings and at conventions and just yes
Speaker 1: to everything will put the link to the piece in
Speaker 1: the show notes. It is definitely worth a read. But
Speaker 1: I think that the issue that people are screaming about
Speaker 1: here is cultural. It's like, you can't just tell me
Speaker 1: that this is the face of the space right now.
Speaker 1: I understand that this was meant to be people who
Speaker 1: worked on this particular magazine, but even that doesn't feel
Speaker 1: good to be like, oh, well, we're celebrating ourselves and
Speaker 1: how we're all white men. Like No, I don't think
Speaker 1: that in twenty twenty three that is an accurate representation
Speaker 1: of where the space is. And I just think that,
Speaker 1: you know, big institutions like PC gamer, we ought to
Speaker 1: be able to expect better from them by now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean piece of gamer. It's a it's
Speaker 2: a big publication.
Speaker 3: It's not like this is some small company coming out
Speaker 3: and just being like we're going to celebrate our team
Speaker 3: like they have. It's not like there aren't women for
Speaker 3: them to choose from to elevate the women aren't there.
Speaker 3: I think again trying to you know, see a hopeful
Speaker 3: kind of spin on this. Obviously, like Gamery came up
Speaker 3: in that quote and gamer Gate comes up a lot
Speaker 3: in this podcast.
Speaker 2: I think like the seeing the changed from.
Speaker 3: Just everything that happened with Gamergate to this article coming
Speaker 3: out now and the backlash that it's facing, that it
Speaker 3: feels positive to me.
Speaker 2: Like that feels like some positive change.
Speaker 3: The fact that I think women and people of color,
Speaker 3: LGBTQ plus people like we were able to band together
Speaker 3: a little bit more and actually like stand up ourselves
Speaker 3: and that that that structure is there and that support
Speaker 3: is there. We know that that kind of like, you know,
Speaker 3: we're all kind of in the same boat here. We're
Speaker 3: all gonna kind of support each other against this really
Speaker 3: cis white male, homogenous narrative that is they're attempting to
Speaker 3: craft here. So yeah, I again, I mean this is
Speaker 3: a good Like it's good to see that the that
Speaker 3: backlash is happening, but.
Speaker 2: Yeah it is.
Speaker 3: Again it's twenty twenty three, Like I feel like we
Speaker 3: are well past the whole like gamer bros. Stereotype idea
Speaker 3: of like who plays video games. At least I thought
Speaker 3: we were kind of past that clearly, Like, I mean,
Speaker 3: you know, harassment is going to continue to happen because unfortunately,
Speaker 3: like that was just kind of the world we live
Speaker 3: in that shouldn't be the norm. And I do think
Speaker 3: we should continue to write back against that, but like
Speaker 3: you know, but yeah, it is like this just seems
Speaker 3: like such an obvious like blind spot for them, and
Speaker 3: and yeah, like again glad to hear that people are
Speaker 3: speaking out, and I really hope that something changes because
Speaker 3: of this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's so important because I just moderated a
Speaker 1: panel with the Family Online Safety Institutes gathering and this
Speaker 1: came up again and again, this idea that more and
Speaker 1: more people of all identities are showing up in the
Speaker 1: gaming space, especially since the pandemic, and so it's why
Speaker 1: making sure that these spaces, our space is where everybody
Speaker 1: is represented, everybody can show up safely truly does matter
Speaker 1: so much. And I think that institutions like PC gamer
Speaker 1: need to just be better about representing that and representing
Speaker 1: where we really are. Like imagine if they had taken
Speaker 1: this time to look back on the legacy of the
Speaker 1: space being treated like a white cis boys club, right,
Speaker 1: and the harm that that it's caused, and how they
Speaker 1: were planning to do better going forward or something. I
Speaker 1: do think that they have such a responsibility and also
Speaker 1: a power to really make sure that the space is
Speaker 1: being shaped in a way where folks can really be
Speaker 1: represented for who they are showing up to the space.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I mean I think it is really interesting like
Speaker 3: video games, and you mentioned like post beginning of the pandemic.
Speaker 3: I don't like saying post pandemic because I don't think
Speaker 3: it is fair to say that, but you know, post
Speaker 3: the beginning of shutdown, the beginning of lockdown, a lot
Speaker 3: more people have found solids in video games, and I
Speaker 3: have kind of become more involved in like you know,
Speaker 3: video game spaces and communities, and I think like that
Speaker 3: whole idea of shattering who the gamer bro is and
Speaker 3: all of that who's playing video games, Like that's something
Speaker 3: that we're seeing kind of across a lot of entertainment
Speaker 3: sort of things right now. I think it is just
Speaker 3: it's the yeah, the whole conversation about representation. It is
Speaker 3: why it is important when it comes to movies, it
Speaker 3: is important when it comes to I.
Speaker 2: Don't know, I only I always because I feel like a.
Speaker 3: Big issue for me is always representation of movies and
Speaker 3: when it comes to like queer people with color, women, whatever,
Speaker 3: and it feels like such a silly thing on top
Speaker 3: of like all of the various terrible.
Speaker 2: Things happening in the world.
Speaker 3: But it really does like impact how we see each
Speaker 3: other and how we see like, you know, movies, video games,
Speaker 3: all this.
Speaker 2: It's part of our culture.
Speaker 3: It's part of like how we it's it is part
Speaker 3: of how we see each other, and it is important
Speaker 3: to see ourselves reflected. It is important to see people
Speaker 3: with out their experiences reflected. Otherwise you're going to sort
Speaker 3: of create these weird bubbles for people where all they're
Speaker 3: seeing is just white straight men and that's not the
Speaker 3: reality of the world.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I am.
Speaker 3: It's nice to see that we're kind of there has
Speaker 3: been a change since this sort of like game or
Speaker 3: gait thing that happened like what like I think it
Speaker 3: was ten years ago, like almost exactly. Yeah, and and
Speaker 3: the way that conversation has changed. It's disappointing to see
Speaker 3: how much work there's will needs to me like needs
Speaker 3: to happen, especially like from an institutional level. I think,
Speaker 3: like you know, the fans have changed, but that doesn't
Speaker 3: necessarily mean that like these institutions, these companies have changed.
Speaker 3: And I think that's kind of the next uh sort
Speaker 3: of phase of that.
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's yeah, more after a quick break, let's
Speaker 1: get right back into it. Well, to that end, I
Speaker 1: have to talk about what's going on with this new
Speaker 1: movie the Marvels. I kind of saved this topic until
Speaker 1: you were here. I was like, I want to talk
Speaker 1: about this with them, like I know, I have a
Speaker 1: feeling that you'll have thoughts. Have you heard about this
Speaker 1: new movie? Have you seen it?
Speaker 3: I have heard of it, I will be honest, I
Speaker 3: haven't seen it. Thank you version for shaving for you.
Speaker 3: As you know, I'm a big superhero fan. I'm a
Speaker 3: big Marble fan. I have a lot of thoughts on this,
Speaker 3: to be totally honest, I have not watched a lot
Speaker 3: of the most.
Speaker 2: Recent I'm seeing stuff.
Speaker 3: I'm sure we're going to get into it, but I
Speaker 3: do think it is really interesting that like Marvel obviously
Speaker 3: had a really big moment in pop culture, and I
Speaker 3: think there was a point where it was it was
Speaker 3: really popular and it was really resonated with a lot
Speaker 3: of people.
Speaker 2: I think we have seen the past like year or
Speaker 2: so that's kind of fallen off.
Speaker 3: I assume that Disney was at least somewhat aware of that,
Speaker 3: the fact that people were kind of losing interest. I
Speaker 3: think there definitely are things they could do to get
Speaker 3: audiences to come back. I don't think they're doing that,
Speaker 3: and I think they are unfairly putting a lot of
Speaker 3: the blame on a lot of the women and people
Speaker 3: of color that have kind of they pseudo elevated within
Speaker 3: these companies. But yeah, I'm sure I kind of get
Speaker 3: into that. But yeah, I haven't seen it. I probably
Speaker 3: will at some point, but yeah, I.
Speaker 2: Don't know.
Speaker 3: I haven't really had an interest in going to sit
Speaker 3: through another move and see You movie lately.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I should say full disclosure, I have also
Speaker 1: not seen it, and I also just generally don't watch
Speaker 1: a lot of movies like this, although I am I
Speaker 1: watched wand Division, so I like it a little bit.
Speaker 1: I'm not like, I'm not like opposed to it, But
Speaker 1: so if for folks who don't know the Marvels stars
Speaker 1: Bree Larsen as Captain Marvel and Tiana Paris as astronaut
Speaker 1: Monica Rambo, who we saw in wand Division, the movie
Speaker 1: is like not doing great at the box office. On
Speaker 1: opening weekend, the movie generated around forty seven million dollars,
Speaker 1: which Rebecca Rubin at Variety said is the worst debut
Speaker 1: in the MCU history. I was under the impression that
Speaker 1: the film must be getting like terrible review as. I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, it must be a bad movie. But
Speaker 1: I checked it out on Rotten Tomatoes, which I will
Speaker 1: say caveat. We talked about that like maybe people can
Speaker 1: gamify that, so keep that in mind. But the reviews
Speaker 1: actually look fair to mix to me. It's sixty two
Speaker 1: percent fresh for critics eighty four percent fresh for audience,
Speaker 1: so it doesn't look like it's like the reviews are terrible.
Speaker 1: I guess not being panned.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I will say also, I have heard I haven't
Speaker 3: seen it, but I have a couple of friends with it,
Speaker 3: and I all thought it was like good, you know,
Speaker 3: it's a Marvel movie.
Speaker 2: Yes there's but yeah it's I mean, I've heard good
Speaker 2: things about it.
Speaker 1: Same, so you know, I have not seen this movie.
Speaker 1: But social media was social media and was quick to
Speaker 1: blame the poor performance on wokeness, which is a claim
Speaker 1: that is like so silly that it's not even worth
Speaker 1: disputing here. But then those conversations took another turn, namely
Speaker 1: blaming the box office failure on the director n Acosta.
Speaker 1: Nacosta is a black woman. She's actually the first black
Speaker 1: woman to ever direct a Marvel movie. On Twitter, critics
Speaker 1: are basically not movie critics. Like social media critics, we're
Speaker 1: basically trying to make it seem like she is the
Speaker 1: reason in the movie is not performing well. One tweet
Speaker 1: that was viewed almost five million times claimed quote, the
Speaker 1: director of the Marvels had only directed one feature before,
Speaker 1: it was the failed retelling of Candy Man. They're letting
Speaker 1: people with barely any experience direct two hundred and fifty
Speaker 1: million dollar films based on their race and gender. Be
Speaker 1: as critical of it as you want. It's all rigged.
Speaker 1: I have so many problems with that. My first problem
Speaker 1: is that it's not even true. A community note was
Speaker 1: added to that tweet, saying that Nia DaCosta wrote and
Speaker 1: directed the crime thriller Little Woods back in twenty eighteen,
Speaker 1: winning the Nora Effren Prize at the Tribecca Film Festival,
Speaker 1: before directing Candy Man and then directing Marvels, So that
Speaker 1: resume puts her squarely in line with previous NCU directors
Speaker 1: like John Watts, who had a very similar resume before
Speaker 1: directing their first Marvel film, Right, And so that's one.
Speaker 1: Two is this idea that I absolutely cannot stand, which
Speaker 1: is like, oh, she only got what she got for
Speaker 1: being a black woman. They don't give black women anything.
Speaker 1: I can tell you that. So if you are a
Speaker 1: black woman and you got something, you got somewhere, you
Speaker 1: got an honor, an accolade, you earned that shit, right,
Speaker 1: Like they're not just giving away like if you were.
Speaker 1: If you are in these rooms and getting these things,
Speaker 1: you got them because you earned them. They don't give
Speaker 1: us anything. So that that claim in and of itself
Speaker 1: is it just it just makes me laugh it just
Speaker 1: makes me laugh.
Speaker 3: Right, And Okay, Also, I'm like what iron Man came
Speaker 3: out in like two thousand and eight, I think like
Speaker 3: it's been around for a while. The fact that it's
Speaker 3: been over ten years and this is their first black
Speaker 3: woman that they have directing a film, I think maybe
Speaker 3: just their second black director.
Speaker 2: Period of I might be wrong with that, I'll double check.
Speaker 2: But that's not good for them? Is that good? Like
Speaker 2: I have a whole but yeah, no, the whole thing,
Speaker 2: especially about like the other directors too. I mean.
Speaker 3: Honest, like none of the director Marvel movies really had
Speaker 3: like super critically acclaimed stuff beforehand, and the ones that
Speaker 3: did it usually was like specifically because they okay, like
Speaker 3: the Russo brothers did like Community before they did all
Speaker 3: the Marvel, which I love Community, it's a great show,
Speaker 3: but it's like that's like a it's a sitcom.
Speaker 2: It's not like an action movie. And then they got
Speaker 2: this huge action movie deal and like the movies did
Speaker 2: well and they kept getting more movies because of that.
Speaker 3: But it's like they started in the same place. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and I mean other direct like a lot of yeah,
Speaker 3: a lot of their directors came from very like sort
Speaker 3: of smaller film backgrounds before they did Marvel movies, like
Speaker 3: saying that, oh, it's this one person's like they were
Speaker 3: the exception.
Speaker 2: No, she wasn't like this.
Speaker 3: This has just kind of been their their formula. I also,
Speaker 3: I have a whole theory about this. I think the
Speaker 3: fact that, like I kind of mentioned before, or I
Speaker 3: think Disney is somewhat aware of the fact that people
Speaker 3: are losing interest in superhero movies. You know, it was
Speaker 3: a big trend, and trends fall off, and I think
Speaker 3: like people are always gonna love like Spider Man and like,
Speaker 3: you know, the big ones like those are always gonna
Speaker 3: get big audiences. But the MCU just doesn't have the
Speaker 3: same kind of like cultural power that it did like
Speaker 3: a couple of years ago.
Speaker 2: I think they know that.
Speaker 3: I think the fact that all of a sudden they
Speaker 3: suddenly seem super interested in putting women and people of
Speaker 3: color and queer people in their movies.
Speaker 2: I think it's almost sort of.
Speaker 3: Like a weird like latch, like like they're sort of
Speaker 3: using it as a like great, now we can just
Speaker 3: sort of like turn the blame on them, Like the
Speaker 3: first one I can remember that was sort of like
Speaker 3: a big thing that it like didn't do very well,
Speaker 3: and it was was Eternals, which Chloe Dial directed, who's
Speaker 3: a fantastic director, and that also was a movie where
Speaker 3: they intentionally included a lot of actors of color. I
Speaker 3: think they changed one of the characters to be uh
Speaker 3: instead of a man, and they like included a queer couple.
Speaker 3: And then the movie didn't do very well, and I
Speaker 3: think it was very like the company didn't outright say anything,
Speaker 3: but they were sort of like they let the discourse
Speaker 3: go in the direction of like, oh, well, it didn't
Speaker 3: it gets same thing, like it didn't do well because
Speaker 3: of wokeness, Like it gives them sort of a weird
Speaker 3: like it is it is really messed up that they're
Speaker 3: like kind of now positioning themselves, and I think that
Speaker 3: kind of has what they've been doing for like the
Speaker 3: past years when they've been positioning themselves. It's like we're
Speaker 3: putting out the Marvels, which is this movie with like
Speaker 3: all of these women and directed by a woman of color.
Speaker 3: But then they're not, like they're not putting the same
Speaker 3: effort into marketing that they did with their other movies,
Speaker 3: and they're allowing it like when it doesn't do well.
Speaker 3: Instead of being like, yeah, we recognized that that was
Speaker 3: on us, or like we just recognized that kind of
Speaker 3: the market's changing, they're letting the blame fall on women
Speaker 3: like Na Costa and just the back that this is
Speaker 3: like a female bled movie. And again, personally, I'm personally
Speaker 3: not a big Captain Marvel fan, Like I don't think
Speaker 3: she's that interest sing of a character. But I think
Speaker 3: like everything that Brie Larson has gone through because of
Speaker 3: like the stuff that she's done with Marvel is so
Speaker 3: like it's so disapporting, just like the level of the
Speaker 3: harassment that she's kind of faced and this is just
Speaker 3: such a clear example of that happening, and it is
Speaker 3: it is really weird that they're Yeah, again, like the
Speaker 3: fact that they're kind of first of all positioning themselves
Speaker 3: is like, look how progressive we are. We are putting
Speaker 3: out this movie with all these women of color and
Speaker 3: putting out all these TV shows we're having like more diversity.
Speaker 3: But then they're not owning up to the fact that
Speaker 3: they're setting a lot of these women up to be
Speaker 3: harassed and to face that kind of backlash on people.
Speaker 1: That is an interesting theory, And I tell you, I mean,
Speaker 1: the studio could put out statements talking about how proud
Speaker 1: they are to have their first black female Marvel director,
Speaker 1: or like really advocating and supporting the people who are
Speaker 1: in this movie. They could make it clear that they
Speaker 1: are sticking by them and that they're championing them. And
Speaker 1: I think and as far as I know, and if
Speaker 1: anybody knows, like let me know, but as far as
Speaker 1: I know, they're not really doing that. Like you could
Speaker 1: loudly affirm, like we stick by her talent.
Speaker 3: I don't think they have, but I do know in
Speaker 3: the past they haven't because and this isn't just Mark,
Speaker 3: I mean it is like Disney is the parent company.
Speaker 3: Like I know, in the last kind of set of
Speaker 3: like Star Wars movies came out, that was a whole
Speaker 3: thing where Kelly Murray tran uh is, you know, a
Speaker 3: woman of color was a lead in the second of
Speaker 3: the prequel or of the sequel movies. I think she
Speaker 3: was fan I thought she was great in that movie.
Speaker 3: She received so much harassment just for being in that movie.
Speaker 3: John Boyego also received a ton of harassment for being
Speaker 3: a black man in those movies. And Mark, I mean
Speaker 3: not Marvel, Disney did not stick up for them at all,
Speaker 3: So I'm not surprised to see that the same thing
Speaker 3: is now happening.
Speaker 2: But again their other property, What do I.
Speaker 1: Think it's going on there?
Speaker 3: I mean, I honestly think it is like the sort
Speaker 3: of weird combination of them wanting to have this facade
Speaker 3: of being like, look, we are elevating people of color,
Speaker 3: We're elevating women, but then when push comes to shove,
Speaker 3: not standing up for them and not you know, I
Speaker 3: wasn't it like, because there was a whole thing a
Speaker 3: couple of years ago too with like Chris Pratt was
Speaker 3: getting a bunch of hate online.
Speaker 2: I would argue rightfully so.
Speaker 1: Because because I thought seemed to be a good person.
Speaker 3: But like the way that all of the other like
Speaker 3: Barble actors like jumped to support him was like weird.
Speaker 3: It was so especially like that happening after all the
Speaker 3: stuff with Bree Larson originally, and yeah, all the stuff
Speaker 3: that happened on like the Star Wars side of like
Speaker 3: Disney's kind of various things that they own. Yeah, it
Speaker 3: really like there definitely is like a double standard there.
Speaker 3: I'm not sure what the internal feelings are from disneyside
Speaker 3: not me trying to like start conspiracies about Disney. But yeah, no,
Speaker 3: there definitely is a discrepancy with how they treat their
Speaker 3: white male actors and how they treat their the women
Speaker 3: that work for them and the people of color and
Speaker 3: the queer people at work for them.
Speaker 2: So there's some somethings up.
Speaker 1: Something's up. Also, side note, imagine if you were a
Speaker 1: woman of color who had faced harassment because you dared
Speaker 1: to be in a Disney property, and then you got
Speaker 1: the call where it's like, we need everybody to publicly
Speaker 1: tweet supportive Chris Bratt right now, Oh my god, that
Speaker 1: would chef my ass.
Speaker 3: I honestly, I can't remember if Free Large and Ever
Speaker 3: like release the statement around that, but I don't think
Speaker 3: she didn't, which I also I totally support her.
Speaker 2: If she did not, that was but yeah, that's that is.
Speaker 2: I would be so mad. I would be so mad.
Speaker 1: I completely agree with your point about institutions wanting the
Speaker 1: accolades that come with the appearance of like we have
Speaker 1: an inclusive cast, an inclusive director, but then not actually
Speaker 1: doing the things that it takes to support those people, right, Like,
Speaker 1: it's not just about hiring marginalized people. It is about
Speaker 1: also creating the conditions that allow those people to do
Speaker 1: their jobs and thrive. And so if you're just gonna
Speaker 1: hire them and then be quiet when they face unfair,
Speaker 1: gendered or racialized harassment, you're not actually doing anything to
Speaker 1: get accolades for You're just like setting them up to
Speaker 1: become punching bags so that you can look more. You know,
Speaker 1: I don't know with it or whatever, like, like, I
Speaker 1: really take issue with that, And I think another point
Speaker 1: to this that really I think I've made this point
Speaker 1: on the show before, but when you have these films
Speaker 1: that are being unfairly and harshly critiqued for things about
Speaker 1: like the race or the gender the people who are
Speaker 1: in them, or the director or whatever, it does create
Speaker 1: this situation that I hate where people like well Meeting
Speaker 1: people feel the need to really go overboard to defend
Speaker 1: these movies, to be like, oh, I'm gonna like this
Speaker 1: city is getting all this unfair racist, sexist hate, so
Speaker 1: that I'm gonna be the champion of that movie. But
Speaker 1: I don't like that either. I want to be able
Speaker 1: to just watch the movie and judge it or critique
Speaker 1: it on its merit. I understand that, but like it
Speaker 1: is just not the climate in which I want to
Speaker 1: see a movie. I want to watch a movie and
Speaker 1: be like, here's what I liked about it, here's where
Speaker 1: it fell short, and not feel like I'm having to
Speaker 1: do some kind of like weird activism by tweeting about
Speaker 1: how much I like it to defend it from these racist,
Speaker 1: sexist attacks.
Speaker 3: Right yeah, Because then the other side of it is
Speaker 3: like it's still like it's still a Marvel movie, it's
Speaker 3: still Disney movie. It is still like a movie that
Speaker 3: is being cruised by this like multi billion dollar company.
Speaker 3: Like there's nothing really particularly progressive about like going out
Speaker 3: and supporting this movie.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 3: I mentioned this earlier, like I'm not a big fan
Speaker 3: of Captain Marble. I didn't really think that was a
Speaker 3: good movie. I haven't seen this one yet.
Speaker 2: I don't.
Speaker 3: I really loved the Miss Marble Show. I thought that
Speaker 3: was great. I'm excited to see, like, you know, that
Speaker 3: actress was fantastic. I think, like I'll probably see the
Speaker 3: movie because I do want to see her again. But
Speaker 3: it's like, yeah I should, I don't. I don't want
Speaker 3: to have to feel like I have to defend this
Speaker 3: movie somehow because this is going to be the epitome
Speaker 3: of feminism and film for the next couple like that,
Speaker 3: which is another weird thing I think like Marvel and
Speaker 3: Disney has done, is they've because they've kind of taken
Speaker 3: over the market so much. It's like every time, like
Speaker 3: everything they do within movie like that is the standard.
Speaker 3: So it's like when they put a woman in a movie,
Speaker 3: you have to go support it. You have to go
Speaker 3: watch it, otherwise you're not supporting women in film. And
Speaker 3: it's like, no, you could go watch another movie made
Speaker 3: by a woman that probably has a more feminist, you know,
Speaker 3: message or whatever. Like I again, I haven't seen this movie,
Speaker 3: but like the message of the Last Captain Marvel movie
Speaker 3: was sort of like yay, we love the military, which
Speaker 3: I don't think is like the best.
Speaker 2: Thing to be putting out there, but yeah, I don't
Speaker 2: know it is. It is really weird.
Speaker 3: Same with Yeah, like the I think they've kind of
Speaker 3: done the same thing when it comes to you narratives
Speaker 3: about people of color, narratives about women. They probably have
Speaker 3: not had that many queer characters yet, but it is
Speaker 3: sort of weird to be seeing like like they had
Speaker 3: the like Doctor Strange movie there was a queer character.
Speaker 3: The only reason you would know that she was queer
Speaker 3: is because she has a tiny uh Pride flag pin
Speaker 3: on her jacket. And they acted like they were like
Speaker 3: they were like, yes, diversity win for us. We did
Speaker 3: such a good job. And it was like, no, I
Speaker 3: like dinety nine percent of the people that watched that
Speaker 3: didn't pick up on that.
Speaker 2: That is not like, if that is the standard you're
Speaker 2: setting for queer representation, we are fucked.
Speaker 1: Like it's God, I did you ever watch that show
Speaker 1: on HBO? The other two I haven't.
Speaker 2: I've been meaning too though, Okay, I.
Speaker 1: Don't want to spoil it. There's a plot line where
Speaker 1: somebody's in it I think a Disney movie and it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's the first openly gay blob in a movie. How
Speaker 1: do you know he's gay because he sleeps with women,
Speaker 1: not other blobs. And this, you know, is like the
Speaker 1: levels that they will go through to be like, see,
Speaker 1: we did it. She's wearing a pin like.
Speaker 3: My favorite somebody who made a collage one time of
Speaker 3: all the articles of the different like first gay character
Speaker 3: and dissy movie, which they were like and all of
Speaker 3: them like we made a we made a slight comment
Speaker 3: that could have been interpreted as a character coming out,
Speaker 3: but you know what, we left it ambiguous enough that
Speaker 3: like the right wing won't care.
Speaker 2: It's so weird. They love patting themselves on the back
Speaker 2: for the bare minimum.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like a character. They're they're they're gaze lingered a
Speaker 1: little bit, and that's how you're supposed to know. Like
Speaker 1: that was supposed to be the coming out scene, y'all.
Speaker 1: So for all of this, I will I do have
Speaker 1: to say that it does sound like the director DaCosta
Speaker 1: is not sweating it. In an interview with Variety's Angelique Jackson,
Speaker 1: she said, there are pockets where you go because you're like,
Speaker 1: I'm a super fan. I want to exist in the
Speaker 1: space of just adoration, which includes civilized critique. Then there
Speaker 1: are pockets that are really virulent and violent and racist
Speaker 1: and sexist and homophobic and all those awful things. And
Speaker 1: I choose a side of the light that is the
Speaker 1: part of the fandom that I'm most attracted to. And
Speaker 1: I really liked that it's like not focusing on the hatred,
Speaker 1: the racism, the homeophobia, all of that, but focusing on
Speaker 1: the light. Because she's got a great career ahead of her,
Speaker 1: she's already hit a lot of like really dynamic and
Speaker 1: exciting career milestones. I was happy to read that she
Speaker 1: is not letting this get to her, that she's focused
Speaker 1: on the light.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's good to hear.
Speaker 3: And that's really interesting too, because I mean, you brought
Speaker 3: up her other her last film that she did was
Speaker 3: Candy Man, which there was another one where there was
Speaker 3: a whole like it wasn't as big as this, obviously,
Speaker 3: but there was a whole like it came out right
Speaker 3: before the lockdown started. There was a whole thing about
Speaker 3: like marketing and how that and that conversation too, and yeah,
Speaker 3: and again it came out like right before everything shut down,
Speaker 3: so it was sort of hard to you know, hold
Speaker 3: that up to the same standards. But yeah, I mean,
Speaker 3: she seems like she's a super talented individual, and I
Speaker 3: hope the.
Speaker 2: Best for her.
Speaker 3: And you know, it's unfortunate that this has kind of
Speaker 3: been the the experience that she's had with Marvel and
Speaker 3: with Disney, but I do truly hope.
Speaker 2: The best for her.
Speaker 3: And again, I do think that, you know, the future
Speaker 3: of cinema, the future of storytelling, especially storytelling that is
Speaker 3: aimed at marginalized folks. It's not going to come from Disney.
Speaker 3: It's not going to come from these big companies. It's
Speaker 3: going to come from these really talented individuals that are
Speaker 3: making art that really reflects what they want to see
Speaker 3: in the world.
Speaker 2: So I truly hope the best for her and for all.
Speaker 3: Of the you know, swept aside women, people of color,
Speaker 3: queer people of the Disney machine. Maybe they can all
Speaker 3: come together and do their own thing and it'll be
Speaker 3: way better than anything Disney's made in the past ten
Speaker 3: years anyway.
Speaker 1: So yeah, well, speaking of very talented individuals, Joey, thank
Speaker 1: you so much for being here and talking through all
Speaker 1: these stories with me anytime.
Speaker 2: Loved being on, always down to you know, talk sit
Speaker 2: about Disney and Marble.
Speaker 1: And just in case folks missed it, tell us again
Speaker 1: it at the new pod.
Speaker 3: Yes, thank you for reminding me. You all should go
Speaker 3: check out. It's called Afterlives The Leali and Polanco Story.
Speaker 3: Uh it is available. The first episode is out wherever
Speaker 3: you listen to podcasts. Our host is Raquel Willis, who's
Speaker 3: a super awesome journalist, activist. She's done a lot of
Speaker 3: really amazing work within the trans community and trans storytelling.
Speaker 3: She also has a memoir that's coming out I think
Speaker 3: next week, but yeah, you should check it out after Lives.
Speaker 2: It is a heavy one.
Speaker 3: We do have our trigger warnings and everything up top,
Speaker 3: so definitely pay attention to those, take care of yourself.
Speaker 3: But I do think it is a really important story
Speaker 3: to get out there. It's important just in the conversation
Speaker 3: about trans folks and the violence that we face, you know,
Speaker 3: from both in her personally and from a state level,
Speaker 3: and this is a story that talks about state violence
Speaker 3: and particularly for those who but also kind of live
Speaker 3: in New York. He talks a lot about Riker's Island
Speaker 3: and the that is an institution, which I think is
Speaker 3: just a really important conversation to be having right now. Yeah,
Speaker 3: go check it out after Lives. Wherever you get your podcasts,
Speaker 3: first episodes out.
Speaker 1: Now, definitely check it out. Check out Raquel's new memoir,
Speaker 1: The Risk It Takes to Bloom. Joey, thanks for all
Speaker 1: the amazing work you're doing. Is you are such a
Speaker 1: force of course, Thanks Bridget, and thanks to all of
Speaker 1: you for listening. If you want more at free content,
Speaker 1: check out our patreon at Tangody dot com, slash Patreon.
Speaker 1: We'll talk to you soon, be well. If you're looking
Speaker 1: for ways to support the show, check out our mark
Speaker 1: store at tangodi dot com slash store. Got a story
Speaker 1: about an interesting thing in tech, or just want to
Speaker 1: say hi, You can reach us at Hello at tangodi
Speaker 1: dot com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode
Speaker 1: at TENG Goody dot com. There Are No Girls on
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Speaker 1: a production of iHeartRadio and Unboss Creative, edited by Joey
Speaker 1: pat Jonathan Strickland is our execut producer. Terry Harrison is
Speaker 1: our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amado is our contributing producer.
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