1
00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,800
Speaker 1: If you have heard about the murder of Jessica Chambers,

2
00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:06,200
Speaker 1: do not miss the new docuseries on Oxygen. It's the

3
00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:09,959
Speaker 1: true story of a teen girl, a cheerleader in Mississippi

4
00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:13,960
Speaker 1: who is burned alive and the story of the man

5
00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:17,960
Speaker 1: accused of this heinous crime. Is that the right guy

6
00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:22,200
Speaker 1: on trial? Who is he? And who is Jessica Chambers?

7
00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:27,120
Speaker 1: And how does such a horrific crime occur? With more

8
00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:30,800
Speaker 1: questions than answers, this is the case that has captured

9
00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:35,120
Speaker 1: national headlines, taken over social media, and leaves a small

10
00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:39,279
Speaker 1: town divided. This is a must see TV event. It

11
00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:44,040
Speaker 1: features exclusive interviews that take you inside the investigation as

12
00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:48,640
Speaker 1: a search for answers and justice goes on. Don't miss it.

13
00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:54,680
Speaker 1: Unspeakable Crime The Killing of Jessica Chambers premier September fift seven,

14
00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:58,680
Speaker 1: sixth Central, with new episodes every Saturday on Oxygen, the

15
00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:13,800
Speaker 1: new network for crime Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. When

16
00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:16,000
Speaker 1: I was growing up in the middle of nothing but

17
00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:19,680
Speaker 1: tall pine trees and soybean fields, my mother would always say,

18
00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:22,880
Speaker 1: don't go to the hospital. You'll die. That's where you

19
00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:27,000
Speaker 1: go to die. You'll die in the hospital. Well, as

20
00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:31,320
Speaker 1: it turns out she was right, especially in light of

21
00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:38,560
Speaker 1: one particular doctor, Dr Michael Swango. How How was a

22
00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:45,200
Speaker 1: murderous doctor allowed to kill so many patients? It apparently

23
00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:48,080
Speaker 1: goes all the way back when he was actually a

24
00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:52,600
Speaker 1: student at Southern Illinois University School of Medicine, where he

25
00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:58,680
Speaker 1: took guess what a special interest in dying patients. I

26
00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:02,000
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, this is crime stories. Thank you for being

27
00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:03,800
Speaker 1: with us. Take a listen to this. He had a

28
00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:07,160
Speaker 1: great mind, was very smart, was a good paramedic. He

29
00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:10,120
Speaker 1: always kept scrap books, and he could bring the scrap

30
00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:13,240
Speaker 1: books to work, and in his spare time he would

31
00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:16,520
Speaker 1: go through several different newspapers and cut out stories and

32
00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:19,120
Speaker 1: past them into scrap books. And of course the stories

33
00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:21,960
Speaker 1: he was always interested in were the ones that included

34
00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:25,800
Speaker 1: some type of bizarre accident or death. You are hearing

35
00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:29,280
Speaker 1: John Lammis, who worked with Swango and an ambulance service,

36
00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:34,880
Speaker 1: and he's remembering his very first impressions of Dr Michael Swango,

37
00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:39,840
Speaker 1: a medical doctor, the guy you're supposed to trust the most. Now,

38
00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:43,360
Speaker 1: that's very scary for all of us scrap bookers out there. However,

39
00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:45,840
Speaker 1: my scrap books are full of pictures of the twins,

40
00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:49,800
Speaker 1: and places we've been and things we've done, not unrelated

41
00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:55,839
Speaker 1: newspaper articles about bizarre deaths. Joining me the man who

42
00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:59,280
Speaker 1: literally wrote the book, Bruce Sackman, the president of the

43
00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:03,239
Speaker 1: Society of Actional Investigators Into York and author of Behind

44
00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:08,200
Speaker 1: the Murder Curtain. Special agent Bruce Sagman hunts doctors and

45
00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:13,880
Speaker 1: nurses who kill. Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor Karen Start renowned

46
00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:18,440
Speaker 1: New York psychologists, Ashley Wilcott, judge lawyer, founder of child

47
00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:22,720
Speaker 1: crime watch dot com, special guest doctor William Moroney, medical

48
00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:27,960
Speaker 1: examiner and author of American Narkian, available on Amazon, and

49
00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:33,679
Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Investigative reporter Larry Mayher first to you, Bruce Sackman,

50
00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:40,680
Speaker 1: I'm I'm so intrigued with Dr Michael SWAINO. Well, I

51
00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:44,920
Speaker 1: wouldn't go so far to say interested. It's more like

52
00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:49,160
Speaker 1: looking at a tarantula under a glass box, or when

53
00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:51,000
Speaker 1: you go to the zoo and you're in the snake

54
00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:54,120
Speaker 1: house and it's okay to look at them so through

55
00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:57,560
Speaker 1: some really thick glass. But that's about as close as

56
00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:01,240
Speaker 1: I want to get. Bruce Sackman, what do we know

57
00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:07,840
Speaker 1: about Dr Michael Swango? How many people do you believe

58
00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:12,240
Speaker 1: he murdered? Well, that's a great question because when you

59
00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:17,000
Speaker 1: ask medical serial killers, and even though that finally agree

60
00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:21,920
Speaker 1: to cooperate, they've killed so many people they can't remember themselves,

61
00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:27,039
Speaker 1: um swango, as you know, killed people all over the world. Actually, Wilco,

62
00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:30,279
Speaker 1: did you hear what he said about well, when it

63
00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:33,680
Speaker 1: comes to medical serial killers. Okay, you just threw me

64
00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,200
Speaker 1: over the edge right there. Did you hear that? It

65
00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:40,360
Speaker 1: makes me wonder, Ashley, how many medical serial killers are

66
00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:42,240
Speaker 1: wandering around? It's going to be a cold d a

67
00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:44,520
Speaker 1: in h double l before I put another toe in

68
00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:46,760
Speaker 1: the hospital, Ashley, did you hear what he said? Like?

69
00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:50,240
Speaker 1: Their common place right exactly? And they can't be commonplace.

70
00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:53,400
Speaker 1: You have to believe that most medical professionals and doctors

71
00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:55,839
Speaker 1: are not serial killers. But I think that it does.

72
00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:58,320
Speaker 1: But the question why do I have to believe that? Well,

73
00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:00,839
Speaker 1: because it can't be true. You can't. You know, doctors

74
00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:04,520
Speaker 1: are generally like most people and most occupations generally people

75
00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:07,320
Speaker 1: are good. But you have those outliers, and this is

76
00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:09,240
Speaker 1: an outlier of a serial killer. But I am going

77
00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:11,719
Speaker 1: to say this, Nancy, it's certainly not the only one. Well,

78
00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:15,120
Speaker 1: Dr William Moroney held on just a moment, you're a

79
00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:18,760
Speaker 1: dot term you've worked in the hospital. Have you noticed

80
00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:21,720
Speaker 1: how many people die in the hospital, Dr William Moroney,

81
00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:24,040
Speaker 1: How am I supposed to know who dies of natural causes?

82
00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:29,000
Speaker 1: And if there's not another doctor Michael Swana walking around. Well,

83
00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:32,120
Speaker 1: the first thing is, anytime anybody dies in a hospital,

84
00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:37,160
Speaker 1: it's only investigated in the first twenty four hours. So

85
00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:39,960
Speaker 1: if somebody has been a patient and they've been in

86
00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:45,960
Speaker 1: for chronic disease, the assumption by the medical staff, including

87
00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:49,960
Speaker 1: the doctors and the nurses and the county officials, is

88
00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:54,640
Speaker 1: that that person succumbed to their natural chronic disease. And

89
00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:58,840
Speaker 1: there's very little effort for people to look into an

90
00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:05,760
Speaker 1: investigation only the first twenty four hours trauma, poisoning or

91
00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:12,280
Speaker 1: medical errors. After that, it's transparent. It's a fog. You

92
00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:16,040
Speaker 1: lose these people, and that's how people lose tracks. Well,

93
00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:18,360
Speaker 1: I've just got to tell you a story that I've

94
00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:23,520
Speaker 1: never shared before. You all know that my dad passed

95
00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:28,479
Speaker 1: away recently and we were all with him, and after

96
00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:31,840
Speaker 1: he passed away, everybody left the room, my mom, my brother,

97
00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:34,720
Speaker 1: my sister, everybody that was with them except me, and

98
00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:37,040
Speaker 1: I just could not bring myself to leave his body.

99
00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:40,360
Speaker 1: Let me tell you something that nurse I still see her.

100
00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:44,520
Speaker 1: I want to slap that grin right off her face.

101
00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:47,880
Speaker 1: She came in there like he was just went with

102
00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:50,320
Speaker 1: the sheets that she's just packing the bed up. And

103
00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:54,040
Speaker 1: I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, Wait a minute, whoa lady,

104
00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:56,880
Speaker 1: And she said, you're not supposed to be in here.

105
00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:01,160
Speaker 1: I said, I'm staying with my father, Untie. His body

106
00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:04,919
Speaker 1: is at the funeral home, and you can call the

107
00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:07,520
Speaker 1: security and drag me out if you want to, but

108
00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:11,320
Speaker 1: I can tell you this much. You're going down with me, lady.

109
00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:13,840
Speaker 1: She just wanted to like fold him up in the

110
00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:17,080
Speaker 1: sheets and just take him away. I mean she really

111
00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:21,000
Speaker 1: acted like his body was just a problem. I mean,

112
00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:25,160
Speaker 1: my dad's body was still warm. He hadn't been gone

113
00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:31,440
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes. It was awful. Bruce Sackman, I'm going off

114
00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:34,160
Speaker 1: on a tangent here, but I'm I'm jumping off the

115
00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:36,840
Speaker 1: diving board. William Moroney just put right in front of me.

116
00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:40,360
Speaker 1: Dr Moroney, because Bruce Sackman, I don't think we really

117
00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:44,720
Speaker 1: know how many people Dr Michael Swingo killed. I mean,

118
00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:46,960
Speaker 1: if they get rid of the patient that within the

119
00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:50,520
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes after they died, the family is still mourning

120
00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:54,200
Speaker 1: and grieving and upset. They don't even have time to think, Wow,

121
00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:58,400
Speaker 1: was this expected? Was this a surprise? And I think

122
00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,000
Speaker 1: that's one of the things Swingo have going for him.

123
00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:03,720
Speaker 1: I'm back to my original questions, how many people do

124
00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:08,480
Speaker 1: you think he killed? Bruce? Well, it's been estimated sixty. Oh,

125
00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:11,960
Speaker 1: my son, that's that's you know, that's a rough estimate,

126
00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:15,680
Speaker 1: because even he doesn't even remember how many people he killed.

127
00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:18,600
Speaker 1: I've got a quote from your book, Bruce, you say

128
00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:23,360
Speaker 1: quote He hovered over their bedsides, study their charts, and

129
00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:25,960
Speaker 1: ask questions about what kind of pain they were in

130
00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:30,160
Speaker 1: and how they were bearing it. He had this bizarre

131
00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:35,640
Speaker 1: special interest in dying patience, and that interest was less

132
00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:42,920
Speaker 1: medical than Hannibal Electric I believe what do you think, Bruce? Oh? Absolutely,

133
00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:46,719
Speaker 1: he had a fascination with death. He would poison his

134
00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:49,360
Speaker 1: patients and then sit there in the room with the

135
00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:53,440
Speaker 1: door clothes or the curtain behind around him and the

136
00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:57,040
Speaker 1: patient and just sit there and watch and just watch

137
00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:01,120
Speaker 1: the patient expire. And then he would really enjoy calling

138
00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,520
Speaker 1: the family and telling the family that Dad had just

139
00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:08,000
Speaker 1: passed away, to the real shock of the family because

140
00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:11,000
Speaker 1: they thought Dad was actually improving. You know, many of

141
00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:14,880
Speaker 1: them had actually gone on vacation. They had visited Dad

142
00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:18,480
Speaker 1: then left, only to get a phone call from Swango saying, Hey,

143
00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:21,560
Speaker 1: I'm sorry your dad passed a week by. I hardly

144
00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:25,960
Speaker 1: even know what to say to that. Bruce Sackman, author

145
00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:30,480
Speaker 1: of Behind the Murder Curtain, Listen to this. They were

146
00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:32,920
Speaker 1: talking about a call that they had in the middle

147
00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:35,160
Speaker 1: of the night, um and it was I think of

148
00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:39,000
Speaker 1: one vehicle accident. They arrive on scene only to see

149
00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:43,080
Speaker 1: Swango on top of the roof of the car in

150
00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:46,920
Speaker 1: playing clothes. He starts firing off pictures he had pictures

151
00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:51,520
Speaker 1: of the individuals in that car. Speaking of horrific crimes,

152
00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:54,880
Speaker 1: let me switch gears. Guys, if you've heard about the

153
00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:58,280
Speaker 1: murder of Jessica Chambers, you do not want to miss

154
00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:02,800
Speaker 1: this new docuseries on Oxygen. The true story of a

155
00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:08,000
Speaker 1: teen girl, a cheerleader in Mississippi, burned alive, and the

156
00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:12,080
Speaker 1: story of a man accused of this horrific crime. Is

157
00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:15,080
Speaker 1: the right guy on trial? Who is he? And who

158
00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,960
Speaker 1: is Jessica Chambers? The teen girl, How does such a

159
00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:23,240
Speaker 1: horrific crime occur? With more questions than answers. It's a

160
00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:28,120
Speaker 1: case that has captured the national headlines, taken over social media,

161
00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:33,320
Speaker 1: and leaves a small town divided. It's a musty TV event.

162
00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:41,720
Speaker 1: Unspeakable Crime, The Killing of Jessica Chambers premiere Saturday, September seven,

163
00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:46,720
Speaker 1: sixth Central on Oxygen, with new episodes every Saturday on Oxygen,

164
00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:51,640
Speaker 1: the new network for Crime. We're right outside the hospital

165
00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,240
Speaker 1: entrance to the r when he walks up to us,

166
00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:57,760
Speaker 1: and I'm just absolutely stunned. I'm like, I cannot believe

167
00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:01,920
Speaker 1: he's he's here. So he looks at us, walks right

168
00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:04,640
Speaker 1: on bias, goes through both double doors and who needed

169
00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:06,559
Speaker 1: to walk down the hallway, and that led him down

170
00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:09,360
Speaker 1: another hallway and at that point time, I don't know which,

171
00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:11,440
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know where he's going, but that

172
00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:14,439
Speaker 1: hallway to the end of the hallway leads to the

173
00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:18,920
Speaker 1: exter doors and he walked outside. We're standing there just

174
00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:21,800
Speaker 1: trying to figure out where where's where's the where's the

175
00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:24,680
Speaker 1: right now? And he was walking along the sidewalk and

176
00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:27,600
Speaker 1: now we actually see him. He was on that sidewalk

177
00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:31,200
Speaker 1: walked up to a telephone pole and then crossed his

178
00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:33,800
Speaker 1: arms and kicked up his leg up on the pole

179
00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,360
Speaker 1: and just stared at us for the entire time. You

180
00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:40,680
Speaker 1: were hearing co worker Brandt a Missig and he is

181
00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:44,920
Speaker 1: recalling seeing the killer doctor Michael Swana after he was

182
00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:50,080
Speaker 1: released on bail following arrest for poisoning coworkers. So it

183
00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,360
Speaker 1: wasn't just his patients and other patients that he murdered

184
00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:56,800
Speaker 1: under the guise of being a doctor, but co workers

185
00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:59,560
Speaker 1: poisoned as well. I mean it, sy Grace, this is

186
00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,200
Speaker 1: crimes where he's thank you for being with us. Bruce Satman,

187
00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:05,960
Speaker 1: Wendy Patrick, Karen Start, Ashley Wilcot, Dr William Moroney, and

188
00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:09,520
Speaker 1: Larry Mayher with us. Bruce Sackman wrote the book Behind

189
00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:11,880
Speaker 1: the Murder Curtain. Bruce, I believe you want to defend

190
00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:14,480
Speaker 1: doctors in general health. I just want to say that

191
00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:19,120
Speaker 1: medical professionals, you know, really perform miracles every day. And

192
00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:23,920
Speaker 1: one of the reasons, in my opinion, why medical serial

193
00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:27,480
Speaker 1: killers are so successful, it's because they work in this

194
00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:32,760
Speaker 1: environment with doctors and nurses are saving people every day.

195
00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:37,240
Speaker 1: So when an out while like this comes surface, people

196
00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:40,440
Speaker 1: find it impossible to believe that this person is actually

197
00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:43,600
Speaker 1: killing people. They refuse to believe that one of their

198
00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:49,040
Speaker 1: co workers. Oh, Bruce Sagman, you are totally you're preaching

199
00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:52,760
Speaker 1: to the choir, because Wendy Patrick, a veteran California prosecutor.

200
00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:56,240
Speaker 1: I mean, if I could put a doctor on the stand,

201
00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:01,800
Speaker 1: or a nurse, a dentist, anybody even related to helping

202
00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:06,120
Speaker 1: other people to the medical field, juries would love them,

203
00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:08,719
Speaker 1: particularly if they wore their doctor code or their nurse

204
00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:12,160
Speaker 1: outfit under scrubs. I mean, juries love them, and there's

205
00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:16,520
Speaker 1: a reason for that. We trust doctors. We love doctors. Um,

206
00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:19,800
Speaker 1: They've saved many of our family members. Let me point

207
00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:23,040
Speaker 1: out that when my dad finally passed away, do you

208
00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:26,679
Speaker 1: know that doctors had saved his life multiple times? He

209
00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:29,640
Speaker 1: had his first corninator thrownbosis in his thirties, and he

210
00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:33,000
Speaker 1: had his life saved over and over and over until

211
00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:36,640
Speaker 1: he finally went to heaven. Wendy, So, I mean juris

212
00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:40,840
Speaker 1: respond very positively to doctors. Well, they absolutely do, Nancy,

213
00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:42,520
Speaker 1: and my heart goes out to you and your family

214
00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:44,360
Speaker 1: for for your father. But you you are in in

215
00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:46,640
Speaker 1: the perfect position to know that we rely on doctors

216
00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:50,920
Speaker 1: to perform miracles, not murder. This particular doctor Swangle, if

217
00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:53,319
Speaker 1: you look at his record as we're now unfortunately doing

218
00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:55,400
Speaker 1: in retrospect. This is what I talked about in my

219
00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:58,280
Speaker 1: last book, red Flags. This was somebody who the man

220
00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:01,920
Speaker 1: behind the mask was visible to so many people along

221
00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:03,800
Speaker 1: the way, and that dates back to when he was

222
00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:07,000
Speaker 1: in medical school. So it's too bad that in we

223
00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:11,360
Speaker 1: cannot perspectively pick up and actually investigate, like Bruce has

224
00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:15,079
Speaker 1: done a great job of now. But perspectively, these these

225
00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:17,640
Speaker 1: isolated incidents should have been huge red flags that there

226
00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:23,280
Speaker 1: was something wrong. Focus became fixation became motivation behind these killings.

227
00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:24,840
Speaker 1: And the fact that we don't even know how many,

228
00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:28,720
Speaker 1: but maybe the number is sixty is almost unfathomable. Well,

229
00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:30,880
Speaker 1: if they're sixty, I guarantee you there are more. Dr

230
00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:32,960
Speaker 1: William Moroney, I don't know if it was like this

231
00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:34,680
Speaker 1: for you in medical school, but it was like this

232
00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:36,960
Speaker 1: for me in law school, I believe it or not,

233
00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:40,960
Speaker 1: Dr Maroney, I was so shy and quiet when I

234
00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:43,400
Speaker 1: went to law school. I know, I know, I know,

235
00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:45,400
Speaker 1: hard to believe I would I wouldn't even raise my

236
00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:48,680
Speaker 1: hand ever, and I would look around and listen. I'm like, wow,

237
00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:50,680
Speaker 1: they're so smart. Little did I know they were all

238
00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:53,240
Speaker 1: just be as sing. You know how lawyers are, they

239
00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:56,280
Speaker 1: just can't shut the hay up. Well, they're like that

240
00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:59,360
Speaker 1: in law school. But Dr Maroney, even in law school

241
00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,960
Speaker 1: there would be complain jackasses. Okay, and you knew then

242
00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,680
Speaker 1: who were the jackasses. Turns out those are the people

243
00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:09,280
Speaker 1: that got disbarred. Those are the people that never have

244
00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:11,840
Speaker 1: the discipline to pass the bar. Those are the people

245
00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:17,160
Speaker 1: that got in trouble. I mean, apparently people in medical school.

246
00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:20,080
Speaker 1: New Swingo was a weirdo. Here's what you have. You

247
00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:23,840
Speaker 1: have a really big amphitheater and you have slides and

248
00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:29,200
Speaker 1: diadactic lectures up front. There are people up front paying attention,

249
00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:32,000
Speaker 1: they can't see anybody behind them. There are some of

250
00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:34,760
Speaker 1: the people in the middle. Girls are doing their nails,

251
00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:37,720
Speaker 1: Guys are worried about the test they didn't study for.

252
00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,120
Speaker 1: And then the people in the back are reading the

253
00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:45,280
Speaker 1: sports page. So you have all sorts of people like this.

254
00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:48,200
Speaker 1: Oh man, I was too afraid to do anything but

255
00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:51,280
Speaker 1: take copious notes what I'm saying. Dr Moroneous, I think

256
00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:56,120
Speaker 1: you can tell early on who is Let me just

257
00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:59,040
Speaker 1: say the bad apple that spoils the whole, the whole

258
00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:03,560
Speaker 1: bunch to you, Bruce Sackman, tell me how his murders

259
00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:07,240
Speaker 1: would go down? Of sixty plus murders, how did he

260
00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:11,080
Speaker 1: affect murders within hospitals? Well, Swango like to work. Um

261
00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:15,040
Speaker 1: caught in the pun the graveyard ship, which was three am.

262
00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:17,400
Speaker 1: And if you ever been on the hospital or at

263
00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:20,840
Speaker 1: three am, there aren't too many people around. So what

264
00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:24,160
Speaker 1: he would do is that he would either inject or

265
00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:28,560
Speaker 1: cap a line, usually using a paralytic like suctional coling

266
00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:32,520
Speaker 1: or sometimes epinephrin, and he would close the door and

267
00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:35,120
Speaker 1: put the curtain around him in the patient and sit

268
00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,280
Speaker 1: there for thirty minutes and watch, and then eventually a

269
00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:41,520
Speaker 1: code would call, and sometimes he would respond to the code,

270
00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:44,800
Speaker 1: or sometimes he wouldn't, and he would take out as

271
00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:48,400
Speaker 1: many people as he could until he actually got caught.

272
00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:51,000
Speaker 1: Not only here in the United States, but he did

273
00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:53,520
Speaker 1: the same thing in Zimbabwe. And when he was in

274
00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:59,160
Speaker 1: Zimbabwe Africa, he killed women and children and pregnant women

275
00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:03,200
Speaker 1: actually got charged with murder there as well. Would never

276
00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:06,040
Speaker 1: serve time there because we arrested him here. Larry May

277
00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:09,480
Speaker 1: hear joining us from Crime Online dot Com. And Larry,

278
00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:13,760
Speaker 1: remember this this guy, this doctor Michael Swingo. He was

279
00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,520
Speaker 1: considered and I'm getting this from Bruce Sackman's book Behind

280
00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:20,639
Speaker 1: the Murder Curtain, and I'm quoting from his book. While

281
00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:23,800
Speaker 1: he Swago was considered a brilliant student with the potential

282
00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:26,480
Speaker 1: of being a great doctor, and no one got the

283
00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:30,280
Speaker 1: impression he was searching for ways to help those desperate patients.

284
00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:34,520
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to figure out what that means. It

285
00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:39,159
Speaker 1: appeared that what he enjoyed most was being close to

286
00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:42,680
Speaker 1: their suffering. You know, after I go to you, Larry,

287
00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:45,000
Speaker 1: we're gonna have to go to the shrink here and start.

288
00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:49,560
Speaker 1: Go ahead, Larry, to get an idea of the sort

289
00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:52,399
Speaker 1: of the arc of his of his story. When he

290
00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:55,960
Speaker 1: was in medical school in Illinois, uh some of his

291
00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:59,480
Speaker 1: patients died. He then got a residency and internship in Ohio,

292
00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:04,160
Speaker 1: where more patients died. Well after he was removed from there,

293
00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:07,440
Speaker 1: he went back to his hometown in Illinois and got

294
00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:11,159
Speaker 1: a job as an ambulance attendant, a paramedic, And it

295
00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:14,639
Speaker 1: was while he was a paramedic that he got the

296
00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:19,879
Speaker 1: nickname Double O Swango. Licensed to kill like Double O

297
00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:26,520
Speaker 1: seven James Bond. He was convicted of poisoning several of

298
00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:31,040
Speaker 1: his coworkers by bringing them donuts laced with rat poison

299
00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:35,600
Speaker 1: and dumping arsenic into a picture of ice tea that

300
00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:38,440
Speaker 1: was in the break room, and giving one of his

301
00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:42,719
Speaker 1: co workers a poisoned soft drink. He actually served almost

302
00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:45,280
Speaker 1: three years in prison for that before he went back

303
00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:48,640
Speaker 1: to killing people in hospitals. I don't understand it, Bruce Ackman,

304
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:53,320
Speaker 1: author of Behind the Murder Curtain. He poisoned his coworkers,

305
00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:57,040
Speaker 1: why was he allowed to go back into a hospital. Yeah.

306
00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:00,119
Speaker 1: Pretty amazing, isn't it. But this is what happened. He

307
00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:04,120
Speaker 1: actually forged the number of documents. He had changed his name,

308
00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:08,439
Speaker 1: forged the number of documents. In fact, he even forged

309
00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:13,439
Speaker 1: a statificate, a certificate that reinstated his civil rights from

310
00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,480
Speaker 1: the governor of Virginia, and he had claimed to these

311
00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:20,560
Speaker 1: medical boards that being a tough ex marine, he actually

312
00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,359
Speaker 1: just got in a fist fight, got sentenced to a misdemeanor,

313
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:27,320
Speaker 1: six months in jail, But the governor restored his civil rights,

314
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:30,679
Speaker 1: and they didn't investigate, They didn't go any further than

315
00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:33,879
Speaker 1: didn't try to very star They accepted it, and the

316
00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:37,639
Speaker 1: next thing you know, he's treating patients against Karen start,

317
00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:44,520
Speaker 1: New York psychologist Karen. This fascination with death, what is that?

318
00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,000
Speaker 1: It's part of what makes somebody be a serial killer

319
00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:51,960
Speaker 1: and the murderer, Nancy. It's why people you whenever we

320
00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:54,960
Speaker 1: talked about why didn't they just get divorced instead of

321
00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:58,399
Speaker 1: killing their spouse, It's because they enjoyed the idea of

322
00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:02,000
Speaker 1: somebody suffering, And actually it's something that will turn them on.

323
00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:05,879
Speaker 1: They get excited about it, and it propels them to

324
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,640
Speaker 1: keep doing it. And here we have what you would

325
00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:13,320
Speaker 1: call serial killer heaven for somebody who's interested in killing

326
00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:17,320
Speaker 1: other people because they are in a position where they

327
00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:19,960
Speaker 1: can do whatever they want and kill as many people

328
00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:23,720
Speaker 1: as they want, and very often can continue to go undetected.

329
00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:28,280
Speaker 1: So he could close that curtain and just sit there

330
00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:32,320
Speaker 1: and gleefully watch the person and I named gleefully watch

331
00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:37,640
Speaker 1: the person slowly dying. It was essentially a circumstantial evidence case.

332
00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:42,080
Speaker 1: No one ever actually saw him put poison indonants, or

333
00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:44,400
Speaker 1: saw him put poison and iced tea, or saw him

334
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:48,879
Speaker 1: put poison and soda. When I determine the outcome, I

335
00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:52,000
Speaker 1: was never any more certain of a guilty verdict than

336
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:54,760
Speaker 1: I was of that one. You're hearing Judge Dennis Cashman,

337
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:58,560
Speaker 1: who presided at Swanos trial, saying it was quite just

338
00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:03,520
Speaker 1: a circumstantial But let me remind everyone, under our jurisprudence system,

339
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:09,080
Speaker 1: circumstantial evidence is just as meaningful, just as powerful is

340
00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,000
Speaker 1: direct evidence, which is like d n A or an

341
00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:16,520
Speaker 1: eyewitness or confession. Yeah. I mean, bottom line, when you

342
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:20,480
Speaker 1: have sixty plus dead bodies and they're all uh, the

343
00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:23,879
Speaker 1: only common denominator is you, I think that means a

344
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:27,040
Speaker 1: lot to a jury. We are taking your calls. Let's

345
00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:30,399
Speaker 1: go straight out joining us right now from Nevada A

346
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:34,040
Speaker 1: member from Law Enforcement High Nevada. Thanks for calling. What's

347
00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:37,879
Speaker 1: your question? Well, my question is is that, based on

348
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:39,879
Speaker 1: what I've been hearing just a little bit this morning,

349
00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:44,159
Speaker 1: is uh the fact that if you've got what you

350
00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:48,320
Speaker 1: just said, a strong case of circumstantial evidence here? Why?

351
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:52,840
Speaker 1: My question is, so, why why are we uh? I mean,

352
00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:56,320
Speaker 1: there's been cases before decided buying a strong circumstantial evnence

353
00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:59,080
Speaker 1: without physical upness. Well, I'm trying to figure out what

354
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:01,959
Speaker 1: the crux of the matter are is involving the actual

355
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,159
Speaker 1: evidence versus circumstantial Well, are you saying you think with

356
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:09,840
Speaker 1: enough circumstantial evidence, someone should be convicted? Correct? Correct? Yes,

357
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,959
Speaker 1: I didn't do law enforce. Let me ask you a question. Yes,

358
00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:15,639
Speaker 1: I was just about to ask you. How long have

359
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:17,600
Speaker 1: you been in a law enforcement Are you a cop?

360
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,560
Speaker 1: What are you? I've been in law enforcement state Nevada

361
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:23,240
Speaker 1: for almost thirty years. I started out as a state trooper.

362
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:28,119
Speaker 1: I became a deputy sheriff, an adult probation officer. I

363
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:33,080
Speaker 1: was the sheriff of Mineral County, Nevada from and now

364
00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:36,399
Speaker 1: I'm a federal law enforcement tribal chief on a reservation

365
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:39,920
Speaker 1: central Wow. Okay, that's certainly a resume. Can I tell

366
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:45,000
Speaker 1: you something? Go ahead. I love circumstantial cases because it's

367
00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:49,879
Speaker 1: like putting a puzzle together for a jury and they

368
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,320
Speaker 1: get to put all the pieces out on the card

369
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,680
Speaker 1: table and make it complete. And I think Gerard's like

370
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,560
Speaker 1: figuring things out. I don't think there's ever a law

371
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 1: on a case. And I love telling juries that circumstantial

372
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:09,919
Speaker 1: evidence is just as strong as direct evidence. Um, you know, interesting,

373
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,000
Speaker 1: that's always the way, right. Ashley will kind of want

374
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:14,800
Speaker 1: to follow up on what our friend in Nevada, is

375
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,920
Speaker 1: saying Ashley Willcott, judge lawyer or founder of child crime

376
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:22,680
Speaker 1: watch dot com. Defense attorneys love to argue, Oh, it's

377
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:26,240
Speaker 1: just circumstantial evidence, you know what. I call bs on that,

378
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:31,119
Speaker 1: because circumstantial is just as powerful as direct evidence under

379
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:35,359
Speaker 1: the law. Right it is under the law. And also, Nancy,

380
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:37,840
Speaker 1: if you're a good trial attorney and a good prosecutor,

381
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,440
Speaker 1: you can have a lot of fun, so to speak,

382
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,600
Speaker 1: with a circumstantial case, because it's all about how you

383
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,680
Speaker 1: present the evidence and connect the dots. And once you

384
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,320
Speaker 1: connect the nut dots, it can often be as compelling,

385
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,280
Speaker 1: if not more compelling, than direct evidence cases. You know,

386
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 1: another issue regarding circumstantial versus direct evidence. Very quickly to

387
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:03,240
Speaker 1: Windy Patrick, California prosecutor, I mean, when you have a

388
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,120
Speaker 1: witness on the stand, like our friend from law enforcement

389
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 1: calling him from Nevada right now, yours very often trust

390
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,520
Speaker 1: and believe someone that makes a good impression on the stand.

391
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:19,360
Speaker 1: So the way that circumstantial evidence and folds in front

392
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 1: of a jury is important. And and another thing, Wendy,

393
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 1: I mean, who can be a direct witness in this case?

394
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,440
Speaker 1: They're all dead, That's exactly right, Nancy. So many types

395
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,640
Speaker 1: of crimes, whether it's sexually assault, of crimes, murder, these

396
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 1: types of things, they all happen behind closed doors. But

397
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 1: the beauty of circumstantial evidence. And I love what our

398
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:39,120
Speaker 1: friend on the phone pointed out. Why do we need

399
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,200
Speaker 1: direct evidence? We don't. And when you have, as we've

400
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,920
Speaker 1: been pointing out, the common denominator is this one particular

401
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,880
Speaker 1: doctor that always seems to be in the wrong place

402
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 1: at the wrong time. When you pair that with the

403
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:53,879
Speaker 1: rest of the evidence, then verdict becomes clear. Here's the

404
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,440
Speaker 1: one other thing about circumstantial evidence. It has all has

405
00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 1: to be subject to reasonable interpretations. It would be an

406
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 1: unreasonable interpretation to say that lightning could strike over sixty

407
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,359
Speaker 1: times in one place, even if we didn't have his admissions.

408
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:09,960
Speaker 1: So that's another way we say tie goes to the

409
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:14,440
Speaker 1: defendant if it's reasonable. But circumstantial evidence really does point

410
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,639
Speaker 1: to guilt in a case like this overwhelmingly. Back to

411
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:23,480
Speaker 1: Bruce Sackman, author of Behind the Murder Curtain, who investigated

412
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 1: this case. Bruce, listen to this, and I learned this

413
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,639
Speaker 1: from your book, so you already know this. He was

414
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:37,680
Speaker 1: obsessed with his appearance and working out he graduated valedictorian

415
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 1: of high school and served in the Marines, and he

416
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 1: was a fanatic about his physical condition and was devoted

417
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,879
Speaker 1: to push ups and jogging as the means of self discipline.

418
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 1: One of his medical school professors says that if Swango

419
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:58,160
Speaker 1: was criticized over even a minor mistake, Swango, in front

420
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,200
Speaker 1: of everybody, would drop to the floor and start doing

421
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 1: fifty or more push ups as a form of self punishment. Okay,

422
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 1: can I just say what a freak? Help me out,

423
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 1: Bruce Ackman. Well, that wasn't the only thing that was unusual.

424
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 1: When when he was at the north Ford v A.

425
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,280
Speaker 1: He used to love to walk around in his scrubs,

426
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 1: whether he was on duty or not. And one of

427
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 1: the things he'd like to do, he'd like to go

428
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:29,680
Speaker 1: into the nurses area, lie prone on the floor and

429
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 1: talk on the phone. And what does that mean? I

430
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,640
Speaker 1: have no idea? Okay, wait a minute, wait wait wait, wait,

431
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:39,359
Speaker 1: wait wait wait, Bruce, Spruce, Bruce, lie on the floor

432
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 1: in the nurses area. What do you mean by nurses area?

433
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:47,120
Speaker 1: You know, when where where the nurses would have their

434
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 1: break area. He would go in there, lie on the

435
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 1: floor in a prone position and talk on the phone

436
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 1: for about a half hour. Just the strange what was

437
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 1: he doing looking at their skirts? Not just a strange

438
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:06,160
Speaker 1: bit of behavior on his part, since we're talking about

439
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,640
Speaker 1: looking at people's skirts, since I was talking about looking

440
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 1: at people skirts anyway, Did he have a relationship like

441
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 1: a wife or a girlfriend. Yeah, well that's that's well

442
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 1: she's did too. I mean, he had a wife who

443
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:27,639
Speaker 1: he divorced from, and thank goodness she's she survived him.

444
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 1: But he had a fiancee. Her name was Kristen Kenny.

445
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:35,120
Speaker 1: She was a nurse that he had met in South Fall,

446
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 1: South Dakota. And then what happened in Twoux Falls is

447
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 1: that he applied for membership in the A m A.

448
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,200
Speaker 1: And they said, wait, wait, wait a minute, who is

449
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:48,159
Speaker 1: this guy? And at the same time, there was a

450
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:52,680
Speaker 1: new on television about him. And the next thing, you know,

451
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 1: everybody in the town says, wow, we have the serial

452
00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:01,719
Speaker 1: killer working here in Sioux Falls. So him and his fiancee, UM,

453
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,639
Speaker 1: they had they were just on the out. She was

454
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 1: a v A nurse. Years later, Um, she went home

455
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,360
Speaker 1: to Virginia, she went in the park, she took out

456
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:16,359
Speaker 1: a gun and she shot herself well, you can't blame

457
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 1: spangle for that, can you. Well, actually you can, because

458
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 1: what happened was that Um the family kept She was cremated,

459
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 1: but the family kept a lock of her hair. We

460
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 1: analyzed her hair. It was loaded with Austini. He was

461
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:37,119
Speaker 1: actually poisoning his fiancee. When she was with him, she

462
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 1: used to get all these headaches and she couldn't understand why.

463
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 1: And after they separated, Um the headache seemed to stop.

464
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 1: But he had poisoned her while they were going together.

465
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 1: And uh, that's the separation between the separation and the poisoning.

466
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 1: She just couldn't take it anymore and she killed herself.

467
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 1: Her mom actually wrote a letter to Judge Michela, who

468
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,479
Speaker 1: handled his sentencing for the murders out on Long Island,

469
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 1: and the judge read the letter. It was very moving,

470
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 1: because you can imagine, I have no doubt that there

471
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 1: are more than sixty victims murder victims of Dr Michael

472
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 1: swing Oh listen. I certainly believe that he's a sick

473
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 1: individual and that he did not there does not have

474
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 1: the ability to comprehend what he did. If if, in fact,

475
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 1: our society let him out, then I think they were

476
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 1: probably more anger, but knowing that he was in a

477
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 1: place that he'll never hurt anybody again, I'm good. He

478
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 1: wanted me to call all the paramedics as witnesses for him,

479
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, I think he began to realize

480
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 1: finally that the paramedics weren't for him. Well, they're testimal.

481
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 1: He was very compelling, it was. It was very thorough.

482
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 1: The things they had to say about Swangle that were

483
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 1: relevant in material to the case were so strange and unique,

484
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 1: if you will, that it certainly had a ring of

485
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 1: truth to it, because you wouldn't think anybody could make

486
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 1: something up like that. We are talking about the angel

487
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 1: of death. Dr Michael Swango accused sixty murderers within hospital

488
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 1: settings and elsewhere. Was it necrophilia? What was his motive?

489
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 1: And right there you were hearing about how a trial

490
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 1: he actually wanted to call his coworkers thinking it would

491
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 1: help him. Instead, their testimony was damning. What was their testimony?

492
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 1: Bruce Sackmann, author of Behind the Murder Curtain. The testimony

493
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 1: was that, um, they came into work one day and

494
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 1: he had donuts for them, They ate the donuts, they

495
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 1: got sick, and then he would call them up, and

496
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 1: he would want to know all the details of their illness.

497
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 1: What exactly happened? Did you throw up? Did you sweat?

498
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 1: Did this happen? Did that happen? Asking all these deep,

499
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 1: probing questions because he really wanted to find what happened

500
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 1: as a result of him poisoning them well, and he

501
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 1: wanted to go ahead, Nancy. He wanted to relive what

502
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 1: what had happened. He enjoyed reliving the experience that people

503
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 1: would go through when they died. He was the type

504
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 1: of person who, if he had to speak to it,

505
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 1: the family would give tremendous details about what happened when

506
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 1: their loved one died so that he could relive the

507
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 1: dying experience because he was so fascinated with the idea

508
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 1: of death from the time he was very young. Why

509
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 1: didn't the state pursue the death penalty. You've got all

510
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 1: these poisonings of coworkers. We know of sixty murders, plus

511
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 1: you got the girlfriend whose same m O was poisoned

512
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 1: with arsenic What why aren't they seeking the deaf guilty

513
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 1: on him? Well, I can tell you, and that's because

514
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 1: he agreed to plead guilty and um that saved us

515
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 1: going to trial. And as you know, Nancy, why could

516
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 1: happen to save us from go? Hold on, hold on,

517
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 1: hold on first to you, Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor, save

518
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 1: us from going to trial? Save us. That's what trial

519
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 1: lawyers do, That's how they make a living. They're supposed

520
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 1: to go to trial, go to trial. That's right, Nancy.

521
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 1: There are some cases in which a guilty plea might

522
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 1: spare victims the horror and the trauma of having to testify.

523
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 1: But these victims are deceased, so that isn't the case here.

524
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 1: You could argue, well, the family members don't want to

525
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 1: relive it. These are some of the decisions, as you know, Nancy,

526
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 1: that go on behind the scenes, that oftentimes are frustrating

527
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 1: to those of us looking in from the outside, attempting

528
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 1: to figure out why a trial lawyer didn't go to trial.

529
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 1: Just as a you know, we always try to extend

530
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 1: professional courtesy. Would love to see what went into those

531
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 1: decisions and what went into that decision to allow that

532
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 1: type of Wendy, Wendy, Wendy, Wendy Patrick. Look, Wendy, I'm

533
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 1: on your side. You're a California prosecutor. I'm a crime

534
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 1: victim and I was a prosecutor my entire legal career. Okay,

535
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 1: but I'm just you know, I'm putting it out there.

536
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 1: I'm not taking sides or covering up for people. Sixty

537
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 1: dead bodies that we know of, plus the girlfriend, plus

538
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 1: the poisonings, Ashley Wilcott, I don't understand, and I'm calling

539
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 1: everybody out now. In some jurisdictions they may not have

540
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 1: the death penalty, and there's nothing the prosecutors can do

541
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 1: about that. But with sixty bodies, I guarantee you that

542
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 1: somewhere the death penalty exists for a guy that sat

543
00:33:55,840 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 1: there in a chair and enjoyed watching his victims die

544
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 1: one after the next, after the next, after the next,

545
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 1: and to boot, he's a doctor, Ashley, and I would

546
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,239
Speaker 1: suggest that nationwide, we see those states that have the

547
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,360
Speaker 1: death penalty when you have a serial killer like this,

548
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 1: do absolutely go after the death penalty. So I have

549
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 1: to believe that there's some evidentiary problem issue that they

550
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 1: preferred to take a plea. I don't know what it

551
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 1: was with the dead bodies that they were having difficulty

552
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 1: thinking they could prove, or if they ran into some

553
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 1: evidence issues like it was incorrectly collected and wouldn't be admissible.

554
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:32,840
Speaker 1: I believe there had to have been something like that

555
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 1: that caused the prosecution to say we need to accept

556
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 1: the out of sixty. I know out of sixty. I

557
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 1: don't believe that. I think somebody dropped the ball. And

558
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 1: I know for a fact they have the death penalty

559
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 1: in Ohio. I mean, Bruce Sackman, I'm I'm stunned why

560
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,879
Speaker 1: no one sought the death penalty on this guy. Oh,

561
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:56,360
Speaker 1: I actually uh ant, I believe it was the correct decision. Remember,

562
00:34:56,520 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 1: this guy was sentenced the three consecutive terms without the

563
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 1: possibility of parole, and he's now in super max prison

564
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 1: in Florence, Colorado. He's never getting at And if you

565
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 1: went to trial evil, you're right. But he didn't even

566
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 1: you know, the only plead guilty to three murders plus

567
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 1: the murder later in o Higher. But you remember there

568
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:24,720
Speaker 1: were a number of there's always a number of issues,

569
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 1: particularly with toxicology, and you're talking about embomb tissue. Please

570
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:37,839
Speaker 1: stop at prison, stop at please, Dr William Moronney, will

571
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:43,840
Speaker 1: you please help me? This guy is the devil and

572
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 1: you know, very often my view is I just want

573
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:51,279
Speaker 1: the conviction. I want the person brought to justice, and

574
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 1: you know, the jury could do whatever they wish when

575
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:57,240
Speaker 1: it comes to sentencing. But I mean, come on, Dr Moroney.

576
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:00,239
Speaker 1: Maybe I'm projecting about my dad. I don't know, but

577
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 1: sixty dead bodies and sitting there enjoying watching them die.

578
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 1: This guy is satan. He's built above walking around, he's

579
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,919
Speaker 1: he's getting three hots and a cot and we're paying

580
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,880
Speaker 1: for it. But the technical issues are is if they

581
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 1: brought at the court. The previous speaker is absolutely right,

582
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 1: they didn't collect the tough In many cases, they didn't

583
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 1: do thet You know what, you guys as natural deaths

584
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 1: in your hair is full of I guess arsenic just

585
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:39,879
Speaker 1: appears in your hair naturally. You know what, I think

586
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 1: the two of you have way too much education. I

587
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 1: want you to take a listen to this. A physician

588
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 1: takes a Hippocratic oath, and you know he's aboued to

589
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 1: to preserve and protect and provide the necessary means to

590
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 1: sustain life. And here's this guy looking at that oath

591
00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 1: and just you know, basically burning it. He violated not

592
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 1: only trust of the patients, but trust of his co

593
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 1: workers certainly, well, you know what I have to agree

594
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,759
Speaker 1: with the joy all my guests today that for the

595
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,839
Speaker 1: most part, almost universally, doctors and nurses are there to help.

596
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:15,399
Speaker 1: As I pointed out with my dad saved his life

597
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 1: over and never saved my life when I nearly died

598
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:22,359
Speaker 1: in childbirth. And then Swango comes along. All I can

599
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:29,800
Speaker 1: say is this, Dr Michael Swango rot in h E

600
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:36,240
Speaker 1: double l enjoyed dinner with Satan Nancy Grace Crime Story

601
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 1: signing off goodbye friends,