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Speaker 1: Hail Satan, and welcome to the short stuff. I'm Josh

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Speaker 1: and there's Chuck and this is our mid metal two

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Speaker 1: parter short stuff that's more metal adjacent than you can

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Speaker 1: possibly imagine. We're talking about the origin of the devil

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Speaker 1: horns hand sign that is as metal as metal gets,

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Speaker 1: as far as hand signs go.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've never had an opportunity to flash this, so

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Speaker 2: I've never really done it, and I feel like a

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Speaker 2: bit of a nerd, but I'm practicing because of that

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Speaker 2: Judas pre show. Yeah, I figure that'll be a great

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Speaker 2: time to whip it up for the first time for sure.

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Speaker 1: So where did this come from? Chuck?

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Speaker 2: Uh? Well, I mean, let's talk a little bit about

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Speaker 2: what it actually is, because there's a bit of irony

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Speaker 2: attached to this, because when you're at a metal show

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Speaker 2: doing this, you are you know, what you're really doing

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Speaker 2: is just a fun thing where you're like, this band rocks,

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Speaker 2: and this is the appropriate sign that you do at

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Speaker 2: a show like this to indicate that I think this rocks.

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Speaker 2: But sort of the the sub the kind of funny

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Speaker 2: subtext is like, yeah, Satan's horns, But what it really

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Speaker 2: is in origin is sort of the opposite. It's it's

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Speaker 2: known as a corner, which is Italian for horn, and

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Speaker 2: it is what you do in old Italy or even

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Speaker 2: if you're you know, have a gram on Italy. He

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Speaker 2: was still you know, still sort of superstitious to ward

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Speaker 2: off the evil eye. It's not like, yeah, Satan rocks.

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Speaker 2: It's like, no, get the out Satan, Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: So all of the metal fans are like, oh, that's

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Speaker 1: the problem. That's why Satan never shows up, right, We've

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Speaker 1: been doing this wrong. Yeah. So yes, and like you said,

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Speaker 1: is totally associated with metal, and the most people trace

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Speaker 1: it back to Dio, Ronnie James Dio, who we surely

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Speaker 1: have talked about by now in part one at the

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Speaker 1: very least, we definitely do. In Part two he sang

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Speaker 1: for Elf Rainbow do O. Obviously. He also took over

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Speaker 1: after Ozzy Rip was kicked out of Black Sabbath in

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy nine. Dio took over as the front man,

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Speaker 1: which is a cool way of saying lead singer for

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Speaker 1: Black Sabbath, and Ozzy was known to like give like

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Speaker 1: double peace signs, yeah as like his thing, and Dio

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Speaker 1: is like, I can't do that same thing, but I

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Speaker 1: gotta come up with something. Everybody's gonna be expecting some

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Speaker 1: signature hand signal, So he turned to he turned to

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Speaker 1: the corner.

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Speaker 2: That's right, what does to deal with those hand signals?

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Speaker 2: It's like definitely a hard rock to meddle thing, because

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Speaker 2: like Van Halen did with the with Sammy Hagar, they

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Speaker 2: did that thing, and I don't know, I just never

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Speaker 2: feel like I see other bands doing that.

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Speaker 1: Essentially, what did Sammy Hagar and Van Halen do?

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Speaker 2: They did the double I Love You put together in

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Speaker 2: such a way that you know it may have indicated

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Speaker 2: something sort of naughty.

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Speaker 1: I'll just say that, oh got youa I remember White

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Speaker 1: Lyon made the w with their two index fingers and

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Speaker 1: thumbs coming together. Did they really No?

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Speaker 2: No?

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Speaker 1: And then the Poison had the thing where you snap

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Speaker 1: your fingers and then slap your hand on top of

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Speaker 1: your closed fist three times.

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Speaker 2: And then that was last mind would go whoooo exactly

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Speaker 2: all right. I don't believe that one. So I did

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Speaker 2: involve for that one. But you know, a lot of people,

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Speaker 2: if you're just a casual researcher, you'll just see everywhere

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Speaker 2: that it was Ronnie James Doo. People have asked him this.

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Speaker 2: So it was an interview in two thousand and one

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Speaker 2: where he said, I doubt very much that I would

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Speaker 2: be the first one who ever did that. That's like

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Speaker 2: saying I invented the wheel, but I think you'd have

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Speaker 2: to say that it made it fashionable. So he'd never

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Speaker 2: claimed to be the originator of that hand symbol, which

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Speaker 2: is great stand up guy, Ronnie James Dio rip of course. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: So where did it come from? I mean, Gene Simmons

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Speaker 2: in court said it was him, or tried to at

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Speaker 2: least he.

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Speaker 1: So here's the thing. Gene Simmons really outed himself as

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Speaker 1: a dipstick, which time well, this time in particular, right

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Speaker 1: because he tried to trademark his his trademark hand sign,

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Speaker 1: which is like the devil horns, but rather than the

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Speaker 1: thumb closing over the two closed middle and ring fingers

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Speaker 1: like you do with the devil sign, he stuck his

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Speaker 1: thumb out, so there's three digits sticking out right. That's

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Speaker 1: I love you. It is. It's the American sign language

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Speaker 1: sign for I love you. Regardless of that, he tried

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Speaker 1: to trademark it for himself, probably so he could sue

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Speaker 1: people who continued to use it, and yeah, he tried

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Speaker 1: to trademark an American sign language sign that just kind

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Speaker 1: of is pretty dipsticky if you ask me. But what's

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Speaker 1: interesting about it is all the press that this thing

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Speaker 1: got started to actually tease out the people who probably

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Speaker 1: really were responsible for introducing the metal horns to heavy

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Speaker 1: metal at least.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, should we take a break, Yeah, all right, we'll

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Speaker 2: be back with more of this mystery right after this.

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Speaker 2: So before we get to who possibly may have created this,

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Speaker 2: we should mention Geezer Butler, the bass player for Black Sabbath.

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Speaker 2: He said, Hey, look at our photo from nineteen sixty nine.

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Speaker 2: I'm flashing the sign. So I did it before Dio

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Speaker 2: and I actually suggested that he do it. And also

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Speaker 2: this was on the cover of Yellow Submarine. Like John

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Speaker 2: Lennon in animated form is making this sign on the

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Speaker 2: cover of Yellow Submarine. That doesn't really clear it up

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Speaker 2: because Geezer Butler is also wrong. So I'm gonna let

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Speaker 2: you lay it on us, my friend of you who

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Speaker 2: maybe started this whole thing.

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Speaker 1: Okay, thank you for giving me this one, because this

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Speaker 1: is amazing. It turns out that it was probably a

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Speaker 1: blonde eighteen year old American girl named Jinx Dawson who

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Speaker 1: was the lead singer of a band called Covin, which

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Speaker 1: would be I guess psychedelic rock maybe, but super dark

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Speaker 1: psychedelic rock. Yeah. Did you listen to much of it?

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Speaker 1: I did. It's not that great, but.

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Speaker 2: It didn't even sound psychedelic to me. And if you

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Speaker 2: hadn't known the lyrics or the song titles, it didn't

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Speaker 2: seem even spooky.

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Speaker 1: It's like a Paul Revere in The Raiders cover band.

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Speaker 2: Or something that's sort of It was interesting.

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Speaker 1: There was a yeah, there was an article by a

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Speaker 1: guy named Dom Lawson and Metal Hammer, and he called

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Speaker 1: it he said it was scarcely any kind of metal,

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Speaker 1: but it flowed with a similar dark magnetism. I think

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Speaker 1: he kind of nailed it on the head.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, what's interesting is like it is ultra metal

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Speaker 2: with imagery and lyrics and right song titles. But it's

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Speaker 2: such a weird thing for your brain to hear that

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Speaker 2: kind of thing coming out of something that's not metal sounding,

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Speaker 2: you know.

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Speaker 1: Right exactly. This is a nineteen sixty nine album called

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Speaker 1: Witchcraft Destroys Minds and Reaped Souls, and it had songs

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Speaker 1: like for Unlawful Cardinal Knowledge on it packed with Lucifer

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Speaker 1: and then very spookily. The first track on this album

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Speaker 1: was called Black Sabbath.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Can I read a few other song titles White,

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Speaker 2: Witch of Rosehall, Choke, Thirst Die.

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Speaker 1: That's just one song.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, commas in between.

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Speaker 1: Each Shoots and Leaves.

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Speaker 2: Wicked Woman is one, and those one called Dignitaries of Hell.

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Speaker 1: She and so Jinks Dawson. The reason why she's like

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Speaker 1: probably the one who did this, she was actually raised

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Speaker 1: in a Left hand Path house and was raised as

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Speaker 1: a Satanist in the Anton LaVey Aleister Crowley since the

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Speaker 1: occult sense, and another reason why it's attributed to her

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Speaker 1: and her band Coven is because no one, no one

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Speaker 1: was doing this, especially in the States. They were from Chicago.

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Speaker 1: They they essentially had no inspirations aside from the real

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Speaker 1: life Left hand Path initiations that Jinks Dawson had been

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Speaker 1: raised around.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, if you look at the uh I

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Speaker 2: think it's on the back cover right of their album

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Speaker 2: once again Witchcraft Destroys Mines and reefs Souls. I just

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Speaker 2: want to read that like five more times. They're they're

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Speaker 2: they're doing that sign. I mean, it's very clear, it's

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Speaker 2: not an accident, it's very much on purpose. It's exactly

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Speaker 2: what it is. And it was so convincing that in

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Speaker 2: twenty seventeen, when Gene Simmons was trying to trademark this stuff,

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Speaker 2: they came forward and Gene Simmons was like, you know,

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Speaker 2: didn't know about these guys.

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Speaker 1: Someone else who said they didn't know about these guys

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Speaker 1: was Ozzy Osbourne and Geezer Butler and Black Sabbath. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and supposedly, and I think it's even spookier the bassist

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Speaker 1: for Coven's name was Greg oz Osbourne. Yeah, this is

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Speaker 1: happening simultaneously in Chicago. Yes, as Black Sabbath is changing

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Speaker 1: their name from Earth to Black Sabbath. Yeah, and Black

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Speaker 1: Sabbath has always maintained this is just some spooky coincidence. Sure,

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Speaker 1: it's believable. There's an article by a guy named Dom

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Speaker 1: Lawson that same Dom Lawson from Metal Hammer magazine who

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Speaker 1: basically says like their album got zero play. It just

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Speaker 1: didn't make it over the UK. There's almost no way

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Speaker 1: they would have heard this, and the reason why is

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Speaker 1: because their album was really right around the time of

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Speaker 1: the Sharon Tate murders, the Manson murders, and America was

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Speaker 1: not known for stuff like satanic rituals.

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Speaker 2: Or bad music.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, but Lester Banks heard it. He compared Black

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Speaker 1: Sabbath to a combination of Cream and Coven. So, at

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Speaker 1: least in the mind of legendary rock critic Lester Bangs,

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Speaker 1: Coven was a at least somehow related thematically to Black Sabbath. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think it was like, take the music of Cream

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Speaker 2: and combine it with the spooky imagery and lyrics of

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Speaker 2: Coven or covin as I like to say.

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Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, you could say it that way too.

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Speaker 2: I forgot, Uh, yeah, that seems to be the deal.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So, I guess it's unclear exactly how much direct

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Speaker 1: influence they had, but at the very least everybody tips

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Speaker 1: their hat to them for being pioneers in that respect.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, at the very least it shut Gene Simmons

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Speaker 2: up right exactly.

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Speaker 1: So hats off to jinksaw someome for that. And then

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Speaker 1: we can't talk about the devil Horns without at least

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Speaker 1: a nod to the Kitsunni side. Consumi means fox and

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Speaker 1: in Japan, if you go to a metal concert, say

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Speaker 1: like a baby metal concert that will come up at

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Speaker 1: the end of part two. You will see something similar

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Speaker 1: to Devil Sign, but rather than the ring finger and

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Speaker 1: middle finger bent down in the thumb crossing them, the

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Speaker 1: ring finger and middle finger come together and are pressed

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Speaker 1: against the thumb with the pinky and the index finger up.

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Speaker 1: And what you're doing is you're making a face of

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Speaker 1: a fox. And this very Japanese. That's what they do

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Speaker 1: at Japanese metal shows.

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Speaker 2: You know. I didn't understand any of that until I

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Speaker 2: just sort of did it as you were following along,

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Speaker 2: and I was like, oh, yeah, look at that little

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Speaker 2: fox right makes a nose is what it does.

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Speaker 1: It does a little fox face.

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Speaker 2: And you can be like, oh, if we have one

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Speaker 2: extra minute here, I would like to do a real

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Speaker 2: time update breaking news. In part one, I rattled off

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Speaker 2: my top five metal bands, and I forgot because I

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Speaker 2: was listening to hair Nation again later that day, and

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Speaker 2: I have an update and I hate to do it,

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Speaker 2: but I'm gonna, I guess bump the Scorpions out, okay

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Speaker 2: in favor of Tesla.

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Speaker 1: Okay, all right, I could see that they're similar in level.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I I feel bad I forgot about Tesla, and

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Speaker 2: while I don't dive deep into Tesla, I think I'm

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Speaker 2: gonna go on record and say that like three of

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Speaker 2: their songs are some of the best songs of that

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Speaker 2: era out of any band, so I have to put

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Speaker 2: him in there.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, while we're talking, while we're doing updates, I

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Speaker 1: watched okay, you and me showed me some I guess

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Speaker 1: Instagram clips of Ozzie's funeral and Sharon Osbourne just losing.

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Speaker 1: It's so hard to watch. But then also she showed

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Speaker 1: me a clip of him singing coming Home. I'm coming home.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, great song.

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Speaker 1: I think he's sitting on like a throne in this

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Speaker 1: stadium in Birmingham that last show, like right before he died.

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Speaker 1: It's amazing. I hadn't seen him when we recorded Partner

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Speaker 1: Heavy Metal, but it's yeah, it's quite stirring. It's really

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Speaker 1: neat to see. So I'm like, man, that is a

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Speaker 1: really great way to go out, you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean he practically passed away on stage, you know, right.

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Speaker 1: So we've said it before, said it again. Rip Ozzy

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Speaker 1: Osbourne one of the metal grats, and I guess Chuck

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Speaker 1: short stuff's out right that's right.

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Speaker 2: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

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