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Speaker 1: I'm Tt and I'm Zachiah, and from Spotify. This is

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Speaker 1: Dope Labs. Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that

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Speaker 1: mixes hardcore science, pop culture, and a healthy dose of friendship.

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Speaker 1: This week, we're continuing our two part series on HIV.

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Speaker 1: There's just so much to cover we couldn't fit it

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Speaker 1: all into one episode. Yes, and last week we really

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Speaker 1: dug deep into the science behind HIV and the history

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Speaker 1: of HIV vaccine development. We talked about the structure of HIV,

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Speaker 1: remember the glaco proteins, and how it infects the body.

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Speaker 1: We also talked about how an HIV vaccine could work

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Speaker 1: and why developing an HIV vaccine is so difficult to achieve.

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Speaker 1: So this week we're going to shift from the science

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Speaker 1: to the people. Because we know science doesn't happen in

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Speaker 1: a vacuum. Our goal is to take what we learned

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Speaker 1: in part one and overlay some cultural context. Sound good,

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Speaker 1: Let's get into the recitation, all right, So what do

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Speaker 1: we know. Let's unpack the thing that we always say,

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Speaker 1: which is that science doesn't happen in a vacuum. There

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Speaker 1: are factors that determine whether or not something is science

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Speaker 1: worthy or research worthy, and you have to consider what's

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Speaker 1: the climate, what's the political or social climate. Is it

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Speaker 1: even seen as urgent? It also depends on if a

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Speaker 1: certain demographic is affected by certain diseases.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: Also beyond just who's affected, is there stigma around even

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Speaker 1: working on these things?

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Speaker 2: Is there any type of health risk?

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Speaker 1: What's understood or not understood at the time where we're

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Speaker 1: trying to make discovery, all right? And there's also scientific

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Speaker 1: communication that is a branch off of the science. So

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Speaker 1: it's when the science is being done, when the research

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Speaker 1: and development is being done, how it's communicated to the population,

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Speaker 1: if at all.

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Speaker 2: Mm hmm.

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Speaker 1: That's a very good point. So these are all really vague,

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Speaker 1: and I think that takes us right into what we

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Speaker 1: want to know. We want to know the specifics around this. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: which communities are affected the most by HIV and has

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Speaker 1: it changed over time? And how has that affected vaccine development?

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Speaker 2: Who were the.

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Speaker 1: Decision makers, what was the initial guidance that affected the

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Speaker 1: scientific response to HIV diagnosis, prevention, public health interventions, treatments, medicine,

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Speaker 1: and eventually vaccine development. And then a question that I

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Speaker 1: have is if and when the vaccine does become available

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Speaker 1: What is the strategy moving forward for the scientists and

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Speaker 1: the people in the medical field that will be administering

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Speaker 1: these vaccines. We've already seen what happened with COVID. What's

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Speaker 1: the game plan for the HIV vaccine.

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Speaker 2: Let's jump into the dissection.

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Speaker 1: You all know Christine doctor daniels by now. Christine recently

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Speaker 1: finished her postdoc at Duke University, where she worked on

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Speaker 1: developing and testing new or novel vaccine candidates. One of

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Speaker 1: the reasons we really wanted to talk to Christine for

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Speaker 1: this series is because of her unique background. She's not

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Speaker 1: just focused on the biology of a vaccine. My background

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Speaker 1: from undergrad is actually a medical anthropology. I'm always interested

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Speaker 1: in how the cultural lens impacts the way people experience

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Speaker 1: and treat disease. If we really want to understand the

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Speaker 1: story of the HIV vaccine from all angles, we need

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Speaker 1: to understand not just the science but also the culture

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Speaker 1: around HIV.

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Speaker 3: So let's dive in.

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Speaker 2: So we're going to start with a little bit of history.

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Speaker 1: In part one, we talked about a couple of different

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Speaker 1: vaccine trials that show various levels of success. There was

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Speaker 1: the first large scale Phase three clinical trial of VAX

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Speaker 1: zero zero four in nineteen ninety eight, but that ultimately failed.

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Speaker 1: And then fast forward to two thousand and three. Read

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Speaker 1: the RV one four to four trial was the first

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Speaker 1: clinical trial with some proven efficacy, but it was only

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Speaker 1: around about thirty percent, which isn't anywhere near enough to

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Speaker 1: get approval. But I mean, when you think about it,

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight, two thousand and three, isn't that twenty

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Speaker 1: years after HIV was first discovered.

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Speaker 4: If we think about historically HIV it's origin, people started

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Speaker 4: realizing that they were infected around the seventies, but we

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Speaker 4: didn't see a big push towards trying to develop treatments

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Speaker 4: for it until late eighties early nineties.

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Speaker 1: A's was first diagnosed in nineteen eighty one. The virus

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Speaker 1: HIV was first isolated and confirmed to be the cause

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Speaker 1: of AIDS in nineteen eighty three. So, yeah, nineteen eighty

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Speaker 1: three to two thousand and three, that's a big gap.

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Speaker 1: To do these numbers justice, we really have to paint

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Speaker 1: the picture of what nineteen eighty one looked like. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so just picture it. It's nineteen eighty one. The number

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Speaker 1: one song from the year is Betty Davis Eyes by

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Speaker 1: Kim Carnes, I don't know that song, but the number

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Speaker 1: two song is Endless Love by Diana Ross and lyon

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Speaker 1: On Richie which we know and Lady by Kenny Rodgers.

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Speaker 3: And then with movies, the top movies.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty one were Indiana Jones, Raiders of the

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Speaker 1: Lost Arc, one of Our Phaves, Superman two, so that

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Speaker 1: is with Christopher Reeves, and then nine to five with

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Speaker 1: The Woman We Love Dolly Parton our Hero. And you know,

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Speaker 1: even when you think about what did the technology look

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Speaker 1: like in Superman two, right, we didn't have all these

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Speaker 1: advances in technology that make it hard for us to

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Speaker 1: think back to what healthcare workers and doctors had in

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Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties. Just for some additional perspective, gloves were

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Speaker 1: used to protect doctor's hands back in the day, so

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Speaker 1: people were using gloves in surgery, but not in other places.

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Speaker 1: So not if you were getting blood drawn, not if

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Speaker 1: you had like a little outpatient procedure, No gloves just

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Speaker 1: out here. And when people were using gloves, it was

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Speaker 1: often thought to protect doctor's hands at the onset of

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Speaker 1: glove use. But then later on in the nineteen eighties,

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Speaker 1: with aids becoming more prevalent, people started using gloves more,

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Speaker 1: just as like universal precautions for healthcare workers everywhere. Glove

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Speaker 1: didn't become required by OSHA, which sets your occupational safety standards,

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Speaker 1: until nineteen ninety two, and that was to protect workers

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Speaker 1: who came in contact with body fluids. So you can

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Speaker 1: imagine people didn't know what was going on. That's less

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Speaker 1: than thirty years ago. Could you imagine a doctor coming

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Speaker 1: towards you and being like, hey, let's take a look

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Speaker 1: in that eyeball and touching your eye.

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Speaker 2: No, just fingerprint to sclera. I don't think so.

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Speaker 1: Thank God for everyone, No way. In nineteen eighty one,

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Speaker 1: the population in the US who tested positive for HIV

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Speaker 1: was estimated to be ninety three percent male and fifty

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Speaker 1: six percent white. Sixty three percent of positive cases were

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Speaker 1: transmitted via male to mail sexual contact, and twenty five

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Speaker 1: percent from intravenous drug use. During this time, the stigma

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Speaker 1: and discrimination against those most effective, gay people and people

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Speaker 1: who injected drugs was staggering, and so there wasn't a

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Speaker 1: big political push to try to fund or direct research

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Speaker 1: efforts towards addressing this problem because it wasn't affecting the

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Speaker 1: dominant population. In fact, many people in positions of power

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Speaker 1: allowed their own personal beliefs to affect their actions and

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Speaker 1: responses to the HIV crisis, not only politicians, but insurance companies, researchers,

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Speaker 1: drug manufacturers, doctors, and support systems like folks, family and

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Speaker 1: friends who believe that the specific behaviors associated with contracting

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Speaker 1: HIV were inherently wrong, and because they thought they were

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Speaker 1: inherently wrong, they then considered these groups undeserving of help

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Speaker 1: or of maximum effort to control the spread of HIV.

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Speaker 4: It's a very controversial issue. A lot of our policy

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Speaker 4: is influenced by religious beliefs. A lot of people use

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Speaker 4: religion as an excuse to discriminate against certain people who

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Speaker 4: have behaviors or lifestyles that they don't agree with. People

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Speaker 4: are you know, I'm a Christian, so I can't support

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Speaker 4: gay marriage or say anything, And that's not in the Bible.

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Speaker 4: You're using the text and interpreting a certain way to

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Speaker 4: push a certain agenda. And so it's not religion that

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Speaker 4: it is dictating that these groups should be ostracized.

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Speaker 5: It's your interpretation of that.

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Speaker 1: And your interpretation is subjective. That's a choice that people make,

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Speaker 1: but also everyone doesn't subscribe to the same religious beliefs,

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Speaker 1: So who's to say that one section of the population

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Speaker 1: gets to make the decision for everyone else? And objectively,

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Speaker 1: these are human beings. We all deserve access to healthcare,

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Speaker 1: secure housing, you know, the basics. The media also failed

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Speaker 1: to cover the epidemic properly. During the first three years

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Speaker 1: of the HIV epidemic, the New York Times only ran

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Speaker 1: three stories on it, and none of them made the

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Speaker 1: front page. And geography was also an issue that impeded

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Speaker 1: widespread education, prevention, and treatment of HIV and AIDS. At

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Speaker 1: the outset, most cases were being reported in New York

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Speaker 1: and California, so lawmakers in other states were reluctant to

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Speaker 1: use funds on HIV that could have been spent otherwise

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Speaker 1: on roads, education or infrastructure.

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Speaker 3: It sounds so much like COVID.

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Speaker 1: This is that vacuum that don't exist, all these different

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Speaker 1: things that affect how we digest the information and how

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Speaker 1: we interact with all of these new things. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we just went through media, geography, religious believe I mean,

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Speaker 1: think about the outset of COVID, right, some people weren't

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Speaker 1: covering it or they were saying, oh, this is only

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Speaker 1: in China, it doesn't matter for the United States. And

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Speaker 1: then even when it was in the United States, when

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Speaker 1: it was affecting New York and California, again, our most

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Speaker 1: densely populated areas in other states weren't doing the things

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Speaker 1: that they needed to do, like implementing mask mandates or

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Speaker 1: ramping up testing, and here we are seeing the exact

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Speaker 1: same thing because they want to spend those dollars elsewhere.

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Speaker 1: This is why it was so important for us to

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Speaker 1: start out with the history of this virus, because you

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Speaker 1: don't know where you're going if you don't know where

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Speaker 1: you came from, and history often repeats itself, and so

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Speaker 1: knowing the history helps us better prepare for things like

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Speaker 1: this in the future. It should have helped us with COVID,

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Speaker 1: but it didn't because we have chosen to stay blissfully

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Speaker 1: unaware of some of these outside factors that are also

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Speaker 1: playing a role.

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Speaker 4: It took a lot of time for people to adopt

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Speaker 4: that more inclusive mindset, and so that's stalled the focus

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Speaker 4: on HIV vaccine development and treatment development, and so we

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Speaker 4: didn't start to see that arise until people who didn't

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Speaker 4: come from those stigmatized groups started to be infected at

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Speaker 4: higher rates. Once we started seeing heterosexual white men or

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Speaker 4: heterosexual women and other people that are part of the

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Speaker 4: dominant culture become affected, then it became a problem. Once

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Speaker 4: we started seeing celebrities become affected and high profile people

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Speaker 4: start dying, then it becomes a problem that the average

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Speaker 4: person cares about. Today, approximately one point two million people

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Speaker 4: have HIV. That's a little under half of one percent

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Speaker 4: of the US population.

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Speaker 1: And that percentage is disproportionately higher among marginalized groups, including

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Speaker 1: sex workers, trans people, and people of color.

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Speaker 2: But we also know that we have some blind spots.

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Speaker 1: I think it's important to know and understand that statistics

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Speaker 1: don't paint a full picture. Data is helpful to see

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Speaker 1: overall trends, but most data is incomplete. Some of these

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Speaker 1: statistics and the way that some of these numbers are

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Speaker 1: put together, you have to take them all with a

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Speaker 1: grain of salt. There are so many factors that go

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Speaker 1: into how the data is collected. Do people feel comfortable

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Speaker 1: with disclosing this information? Who are they asking, how are

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Speaker 1: they asking? Are the questions clear? And it gets even

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Speaker 1: more complicated when you start to go down into marginalized communities,

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Speaker 1: Black folks people who are living with disabilities, people in

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Speaker 1: the LGBTQIA community, all of these populations, they've been excluded

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Speaker 1: from so many of these conversations. It's been used to

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Speaker 1: violate them in the past. Disclosing meant loss of jobs, Disclosing.

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Speaker 3: Meant social stigma. It completely changes your life.

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Speaker 1: That provides a lot more context t t about why

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Speaker 1: we see sex workers or trans people or people of

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Speaker 1: color with higher rates of HIV in these slices of

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Speaker 1: the population because they have higher risks. These categories aren't

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Speaker 1: biological and so when you see these things come together

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Speaker 1: because of social influences, and these types of gaps can

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Speaker 1: potentially lead to problems where people affected the most are

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Speaker 1: excluded or misrepresented in studies. Another thing that's changed a

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Speaker 1: lot since nineteen eighty one is that there has been

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Speaker 1: a lot more education and media coverage. Yes, movies and

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Speaker 1: TV shows have evolved in terms of the stories that

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Speaker 1: they tell about people living with HIV. One that I've

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Speaker 1: been really enjoying lately is It's a Sin on HBO Max,

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Speaker 1: which tells the story of the early eighties and the

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Speaker 1: identification of AIDS and that it leads to HIV from

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Speaker 1: the perspective of a group of friends living in I

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Speaker 1: think they're in London, and you see how they're like, oh, no,

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Speaker 1: this is only issue if you sleep with American boys.

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Speaker 3: Oh my goodness.

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Speaker 1: And that was the framework and the mindset, which doesn't

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Speaker 1: feel that different from this is only an issue if

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Speaker 1: you traveled to China with COVID. Remember in the real

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Speaker 1: world when Pedro Zamora, that was my first introduction to someone.

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Speaker 1: He's not a fictional character that had HIV and they

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Speaker 1: were showing him on television, and I felt like his

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Speaker 1: story really impacted what people generally thought about folks with

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Speaker 1: HIV and really humanized that population a lot.

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Speaker 2: You know what.

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Speaker 1: I remember that movie with Denzel Washington called Philadelphia.

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Speaker 3: Yes, another really good one. I loved that movie.

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Speaker 1: Well known celebrities, including Billy Porter and Jonathan van Ness

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Speaker 1: have recently talked openly about their HIV diagnoses.

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Speaker 4: Now, all of a sudden, there's all of these campaigns

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Speaker 4: and committees and small organizations that are leading efforts to

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Speaker 4: try to devote attention and funding and resources towards addressing

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Speaker 4: this problem.

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Speaker 5: But the problem wasn't new.

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Speaker 4: The problem has been there, it just wasn't pushed to

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Speaker 4: the forefront of attention, and so that's kind of what

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Speaker 4: stalled the efforts. Let's take a break and when we

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Speaker 4: come back, we'll keep talking about why it's taken so

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Speaker 4: long to develop an HIV vaccine. We're back and we

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Speaker 4: want to tell you about our lab for next week.

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Speaker 4: Next week, we're celebrating the end of twenty twenty one

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Speaker 4: with our annual end of the year mixtape. We'll be

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Speaker 4: talking about the biggest moments from twenty twenty one and

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Speaker 4: doing a mini dissection on each of them.

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Speaker 1: And in January, we're really excited about a four part

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Speaker 1: series we're doing all about wellness, self care and how

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Speaker 1: to brush up on your habits in the new year,

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Speaker 1: and we want you to be a part of it.

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Speaker 1: We want to know your new year's resolutions for twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty two. Are you making a list or did you

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Speaker 1: skip resolutions altogether?

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Speaker 3: What are you focusing on? We want to hear from you.

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Speaker 1: Call us at two zero two five six seven seven

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Speaker 1: zero two eight and leave us a message. Okay, let's

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Speaker 1: get back to the dissection. In the first part of

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Speaker 1: the dissection discussed some of the social and behavioral context

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Speaker 1: around who is predominantly affected by AHIV, and so now

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Speaker 1: it all makes sense as to why it's been an

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Speaker 1: uphill battle to developing AHIV vaccine. So at the onset,

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Speaker 1: you have people who feel like this isn't worth investing in,

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Speaker 1: from our political leaders to big corporations, and we saw

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Speaker 1: what it took for something that affected everybody for us

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Speaker 1: to get things going just in twenty twenty.

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Speaker 2: Imagine.

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Speaker 1: Also, what we're talking about is nineteen eighties science. Okay, yeah,

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Speaker 1: science with acid wash genes.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Okay.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how many advances you can make with

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Speaker 1: acid wash gens and all that hairspray and all that hairspray.

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Speaker 1: But you got to give these scientists credit. Okay, they

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Speaker 1: continue to work on this and work on this. Just

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Speaker 1: to give you some perspective. In the early stages, so

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Speaker 1: like around nineteen eighty five, I think that's when they

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Speaker 1: first had the like official HIV diagnostic test. Okay, So

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Speaker 1: we're talking about nineteen eighty one to nineteen eighty five

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Speaker 1: with no standard test, right, these are people observing symptoms

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Speaker 1: and trying to figure out what could possibly be going

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Speaker 1: on in these different patients. That first test, the way

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Speaker 1: it was designed, you could get a non reactive kind

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Speaker 1: of like negative test result. That negative window was eight

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Speaker 1: to ten weeks after exposure, So you needed to wait

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Speaker 1: at least ten weeks after exposure or potential exposure for

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Speaker 1: you to be able to say confidently negative or positive.

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Speaker 1: That's a long time.

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Speaker 3: That is a very very long time.

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Speaker 1: So fast forward, I mean, now that's not the case anymore, right,

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Speaker 1: But so from nineteen eighty five to nineteen ninety one

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Speaker 1: they got that down from eight to ten weeks to

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Speaker 1: tests that only had a two to three week window.

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Speaker 1: It's mind boggling to me that they were able to

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Speaker 1: make that type of progress without the tools that we

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Speaker 1: have available right now.

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Speaker 3: All they had were traffer keepers. You can put in

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Speaker 3: your lab notes in a Traffer keeper.

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Speaker 1: And so what we also have to consider is what

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Speaker 1: population or what group of the population was most affected

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Speaker 1: by HIV and are these the same people who are

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Speaker 1: making decisions about drugs, treatment policy, public health support? Are

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Speaker 1: those the people making the decisions around HIV? And Christine

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Speaker 1: says that representation in those spaces is absolutely crucial.

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Speaker 4: When you think about from a research standpoint, the people

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Speaker 4: that are in a position to decide the questions that

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Speaker 4: research don't look like the populations that are affected. So

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Speaker 4: if those people aren't in the room, they can't direct

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Speaker 4: the questions, and so we see a lot more research

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Speaker 4: funding or research done on things that impact the dominant culture,

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Speaker 4: such as breast cancer, instead of things like sickle cell

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Speaker 4: that affect predominantly African Americans or minorities. So we have

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Speaker 4: the funding issue, we also have the representation issue. If

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Speaker 4: we're not in the room, we can't drive the conversation,

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Speaker 4: we can't direct it.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Daniel's identity is inastricably linked to her work. Diseases

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Speaker 1: she chooses to research are the ones that most frequently

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Speaker 1: impact people who share her identity.

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Speaker 4: I personally don't think you can separate the two. Well,

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Speaker 4: I can't because of my identity. I am a black woman,

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Speaker 4: and so the way I approach research, the way I

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Speaker 4: think about the questions that I'm researching, is always going

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Speaker 4: to be influenced by my identity, and so the diseases

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Speaker 4: I choose to research are typically diseases that more frequently

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Speaker 4: impact people with my identity or similar identities. Christine saw

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Speaker 4: the disparities and how they can affect decisions that are

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Speaker 4: made firsthand when COVID started and when the COVID pandemic

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Speaker 4: first started, we were in these multi day symposiums working force,

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Speaker 4: just trying to understand what was going on. So, what's

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Speaker 4: infecting these people, how is it happening, how is it spreading,

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Speaker 4: what do we do to contain it, how do we

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Speaker 4: treat it, how is it working, and things like that,

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Speaker 4: and who do we prioritize. And in one of them,

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Speaker 4: race only came up one time because a person asked

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Speaker 4: about the prevalence amongst minority communities. The person said that

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Speaker 4: because African Americans have higher rates of obesity and hypertension,

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Speaker 4: that that's why it's more prevalent amongst us, and that's

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Speaker 4: why we're dying because we have all these pre existing conditions,

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Speaker 4: and that was it.

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Speaker 1: If you're not acknowledging the context in which people are

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Speaker 1: living when talking about pre existing conditions, you're not painting

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Speaker 1: the full picture.

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Speaker 3: You're not telling the whole story.

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Speaker 1: Race is not a biological category, So we're talking about

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Speaker 1: things like access to good healthcare, socioeconomic status, even things.

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Speaker 3: Like your ability to social distance. Not everybody can do that.

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Speaker 1: Your housing conditions or the type of job you have

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Speaker 1: might make it impossible for you to do that. One

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Speaker 1: thing Christine talked about that was really interesting was that

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Speaker 1: disparities and representation can also lead to disparities in terms

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Speaker 1: of technology and access. I worry we're developing more and

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Speaker 1: more high tech technologies because we can, but we won't

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Speaker 1: be able to actually benefit the people who need it

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Speaker 1: the most because now it's cost prohibitive, because so much

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Speaker 1: money goes into developing them that now it won't be

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Speaker 1: marketed at a price point that the people who needed

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Speaker 1: it most, the people who was designed for, can benefit

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Speaker 1: from it.

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Speaker 4: Do you have to be in a hospital to get

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Speaker 4: administered this? How feasible is it for someone to go

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Speaker 4: and get competitive doses of something? I don't think that

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Speaker 4: scientists think enough about who they're trying.

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Speaker 1: To help, and that's something that we're seeing with COVID right.

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Speaker 1: One of the things was that the vaccine had to

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Speaker 1: be refrigerated. And which countries can afford to buy these therapies.

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Speaker 1: That's important.

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Speaker 3: That's such a good point.

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Speaker 1: I mean, what's the point of a treatment if only

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Speaker 1: the top one percent can afford the drug? We talked

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Speaker 1: about prep in part one of the series and how

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Speaker 1: it's an effective preventative drug for HIV, but.

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Speaker 3: We didn't mention the cost. A thirty day supply of

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Speaker 3: PREP costs one thousand, seven hundred and fifty eight dollars.

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Speaker 3: That means annually it could add up to over twenty

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Speaker 3: one thousand dollars.

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Speaker 2: That is ridiculous.

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Speaker 3: In July of this year, the federal government passed the

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Speaker 3: law mandating insurers to cover PREP drugs one hundred percent,

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Speaker 3: including clinic visits associated with PREP. That's a big deal.

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Speaker 2: That's huge. Yeah, And the CDC just released new guidelines.

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Speaker 1: Right and it added a recommendation to doctors to inform

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Speaker 1: all sexually active adults and adolescents about PREP. I think

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Speaker 1: that's going to go a long way in raising awareness

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Speaker 1: and reducing stigma.

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Speaker 5: Scientists care about the science.

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Speaker 4: They want the coolest technology and the most high tech thing,

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Speaker 4: But people from different identities think about them and think

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Speaker 4: about how would this work, Like would my friend cousin's

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Speaker 4: sister mother actually be able to use this?

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Speaker 5: I think about this a lot in terms of cancer.

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Speaker 4: I think about how much money will go into funding

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Speaker 4: a drug that will extend the life of a cancer

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Speaker 4: that already has a pretty fair prognosis, versus you know,

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Speaker 4: studying one where people have less options.

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Speaker 1: When we get into conversations about race relations or the

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Speaker 1: experience of people of color in America. There are some

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Speaker 1: people who, while you're in that conversation, they say, oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm just playing Devil's advocate. And to that, I really

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Speaker 1: like to quote Quinta Brunson, and I say, go play

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Speaker 1: Devil's advocate. In hell, we're talking about somebody's ability to live,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like, we're talking about life,

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Speaker 1: someone's life. We're talking about safety. We're talking about the

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Speaker 1: safety of people's family, of their friends, their closest people,

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Speaker 1: their loved ones, and everything like that. So for you,

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Speaker 1: it might just be a mental exercise and you think, oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm just strengthening this debate muscle that I have or whatever.

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Speaker 3: But for some people, it's life or death.

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Speaker 2: It really is.

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Speaker 1: And I think if there's one thing we've learned, it

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Speaker 1: is how important the introduction or rollout of any effective

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Speaker 1: treatment is to whether or not it gets even considered

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Speaker 1: by folks, right, whether folks are even willing to talk

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Speaker 1: about it, think about taking it, let alone, take it

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Speaker 1: as recommend it right. So I think that's something we've

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Speaker 1: learned from COVID, and we got to figure out how

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Speaker 1: is this going to work when an effective HIV vaccine

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Speaker 1: does arrive. We've seen the pitfalls of a bumpy vaccine

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Speaker 1: rollout this past year with COVID. There's been a ton

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Speaker 1: of misinformation around the vaccine, and you can hear more

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Speaker 1: about that in Lab thirty seven called in Denial. We

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Speaker 1: wanted to know from Christine what kinds of barriers she

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Speaker 1: anticipates once an HIV vaccine does hit the market. HIV

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Speaker 1: is an STD, so already you're going to have opposition

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Speaker 1: because people don't like to think about sex or sexual transmit.

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Speaker 5: Diseases and youth.

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Speaker 4: And so in order for U to get widespread population,

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Speaker 4: as what we've seen with COVID, we have to get

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Speaker 4: children vaccinated too, And so I see opposition for parents

441
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,199
Speaker 4: not wanting their children to get something that's associated with

442
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:14,919
Speaker 4: sex because they think that that might encourage them to

443
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:17,200
Speaker 4: have sex, and that's not the case.

444
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:17,640
Speaker 2: Right.

445
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:19,960
Speaker 3: We saw this with the HPV vaccine.

446
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:24,080
Speaker 1: HPV is a very common and highly transmittable STD that's

447
00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:27,040
Speaker 1: linked to many types of cancer, including ninety percent of

448
00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:31,800
Speaker 1: cervical cancer. Doctors recommended getting the twudose vaccine and adolescence,

449
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,879
Speaker 1: but many parents were hesitant. And it's not just because

450
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:38,520
Speaker 1: it's an STD, it's also because of misinformation in general.

451
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:43,000
Speaker 4: The other opposition, again, I would say, is vaccine hesitancy broadly,

452
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,880
Speaker 4: not speaking about just African Americans or Hispanics or anyone population,

453
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,879
Speaker 4: but just people who don't think vaccines work. They base

454
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 4: their belief in the ability of a vaccine to work

455
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:55,440
Speaker 4: on the flu vaccine, which doesn't reach the level of

456
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:58,720
Speaker 4: efficacy that we see with the COVID nineteen vaccine, and

457
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 4: that's for different reasons. I mean, there's multiple circulating strains

458
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,400
Speaker 4: and you taste faster things like that that affect its efficacy.

459
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:06,159
Speaker 4: But there's so many people that have this narrative of

460
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 4: I got the vaccine for flu and I still got sick,

461
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:10,680
Speaker 4: or I never get the vaccine and I never get sick,

462
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 4: And this.

463
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 2: Is really interesting. You know.

464
00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 1: We talked about this in our vaccine episode of Protection

465
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:19,160
Speaker 1: Neck Lab four about one of my friends who's a virologist, yes,

466
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 1: who told me he would not go to dinner with

467
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 1: me until I had my flu vaccine. And we went

468
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:25,480
Speaker 1: right over to the right eight and I got a

469
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,480
Speaker 1: flu vaccine and then we walked back into town for dinner.

470
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:33,920
Speaker 2: And maybe we need you need like that. We all

471
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:35,159
Speaker 2: need York friends like Greg.

472
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:37,119
Speaker 3: Shout out to Greg.

473
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:43,479
Speaker 1: And it does feel like there have been a lot

474
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 1: more people talking about flu shots this year.

475
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:45,920
Speaker 4: Yeah.

476
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 1: I think people feel a lot more comfortable with getting

477
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 1: a flu shot now that we've been in this pandemic

478
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 1: and been away from people and masking and social distancing.

479
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,679
Speaker 1: I think that the folks that were not likely to

480
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 1: get a flu vaccine are now a lot more likely

481
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 1: to get it.

482
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,120
Speaker 4: You also have people from these very privileged backgrounds who

483
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 4: had promoted this idea that they don't need to vaccinate

484
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:08,920
Speaker 4: their children because they don't know what's in it, because

485
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 4: it'll leave autism. There's all of these false narratives and

486
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 4: myths and misconceptions about vaccines that also creates opposition. Another

487
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 4: point Christine made is that when it comes to this

488
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,920
Speaker 4: anti vaxed narrative, we really need to pay attention to

489
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 4: the cultural context, because some people are quick to be

490
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 4: labeled as anti vacs, while others have the luxury of

491
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 4: being labeled curious.

492
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 2: And it's way more complicated than that.

493
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:33,840
Speaker 4: I just don't like the vaccine has a tensing narrative.

494
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,679
Speaker 4: I just think it's inherently problematic. It's an oversimplification of

495
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 4: legitimate concerns that are based in history and evidence. I

496
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 4: hate that that narrative is attributed to people who ask

497
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:51,200
Speaker 4: questions when they are for certain race or a particular group.

498
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 4: When white people ask questions, it's, oh, you know, they

499
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:55,640
Speaker 4: just want to be more informed. When black people ask

500
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 4: questions like, oh, they're has and they apply it to

501
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 4: all vaccines, and I just think it's really problem and

502
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 4: it's not true.

503
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,440
Speaker 1: There's a lot of nuance there that's important to recognize,

504
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 1: and when it comes to approaching those curious about vaccines,

505
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 1: it's really important to meet people where they are and

506
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 1: do so on a case by case basis.

507
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 2: So how do we do that?

508
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 1: What can scientists, doctors, and educators do to help more

509
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,879
Speaker 1: people understand what goes into the vaccine if.

510
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:24,439
Speaker 4: We want people to take the vaccine. As scientists, we

511
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 4: need to do a better job of removing the veil

512
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:30,439
Speaker 4: between the public and the science. The public pays our salaries,

513
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,160
Speaker 4: they pay for the science. The tax payers fund this research,

514
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:35,359
Speaker 4: and so I feel that they are entitled to the

515
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,639
Speaker 4: information of what happens with those funds, and so as scientists,

516
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,159
Speaker 4: I think we don't do a good job of coming

517
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,639
Speaker 4: forward and saying what we're doing or what the story is.

518
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 4: As scientists, our job is to present data, to get data,

519
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:51,160
Speaker 4: explore questions, determine answers in an accurate and reproducible way.

520
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 4: And so if we want that to be conveyed, then

521
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:55,639
Speaker 4: we as scientists have to be the people communicating that

522
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:57,920
Speaker 4: information in the way that we want it to be received.

523
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 4: And that's true for HIV, but it's also going to

524
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 4: be true for some other great developments we've seen.

525
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 2: With the malaria vaccine, Yes, that is huge.

526
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:11,200
Speaker 1: Malaria is a disease that's transmitted through mosquitoes and it

527
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 1: has been really devastating in a lot of different countries,

528
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 1: and so a malario vaccine has now been approved.

529
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:20,439
Speaker 3: This is going to change the lives of so many people.

530
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,239
Speaker 1: And this is also going to be important not just

531
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:27,120
Speaker 1: for malaria globally, but also for the dingay vaccine den Vaccia,

532
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 1: which was approved by the FDA in twenty nineteen and

533
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:40,680
Speaker 1: has some updates to its use in June twenty twenty one.

534
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 1: I love that we separated this into two parts because

535
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 1: it really helped us to be able to explore all

536
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 1: of the contextual social aspects of the HIV vaccine and

537
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 1: the history of HIV in this country.

538
00:27:57,640 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 3: I learned so so much.

539
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:00,720
Speaker 2: And I think it's a great example.

540
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 1: It would not be accurate, fair anything to tell this

541
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:10,679
Speaker 1: story that's only about glycoproteins and only about the latest

542
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,120
Speaker 1: platform for designing small nanoparticles.

543
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 2: That's not the full story, you know.

544
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 1: I think it's only right to say that the identity

545
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 1: of the group's affected influence the response, influence how much

546
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 1: funding gets put towards prevention and public health efforts. I

547
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:32,239
Speaker 1: love how Christine mentioned religion and how societal values at

548
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 1: a specific time can influence the urgency that's considered when

549
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 1: we see people dying, and we see that right now,

550
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 1: I've seen a lot of conversation around whether or not

551
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 1: it matters about who's going to the hospital if they're

552
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 1: not vaccinated. Hey, we want everybody to live, okay, And

553
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 1: so I think it's.

554
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 2: Just like a slippery slope.

555
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 1: Like you said, you have to know your history or

556
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 1: else you're bound to repeat it. And I know human

557
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 1: evolution is not happening that fast.

558
00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 2: Okay.

559
00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 1: We are the same people in nineteen eighty as we

560
00:28:58,880 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 1: are in twenty twenty.

561
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 2: Yes, don't fool yourself, but I.

562
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 1: Do love the increased awareness. You know, we're seeing more conversations,

563
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 1: we're seeing more efforts. You know, you mentioned some of

564
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 1: the things you see in TV celebrities using their platforms.

565
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 1: We talked about movies, you know, I said Philadelphia, but

566
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 1: I don't know if it still holds up. That was

567
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 1: in the nineties, right, But there are some really great

568
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 1: TV shows that are out right now that center around

569
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:25,959
Speaker 1: people who are living with HIV.

570
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 2: Two shows, so there's pose.

571
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 1: And then I think I mentioned earlier it's a sim

572
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 1: which is a historical perspective taking us back to the

573
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 1: eighties with the hairspray and the asset wash genes, but

574
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 1: from the lens of a different country, and we really

575
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 1: get to see how geography plays a role. And then

576
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 1: another great thing is that doctor Daniels gave us some

577
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 1: book recommendations if you want to learn more, and we're

578
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 1: going to have that in the show notes, So make

579
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,720
Speaker 1: sure you head over to dope lauspodcast dot com to

580
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 1: look at those because I am definitely adding all of

581
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 1: those books to my lists of books that I'm going

582
00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 1: to be reading. All Right, it's time for one thing, Zakiya,

583
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 1: what's your one thing? My one thing this week is

584
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 1: ground Truths, which is a newsletter from doctor Eric Topole.

585
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 1: He's a physician but does a lot of translational medicine

586
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 1: and I am loving it. It's Eric Topole so E

587
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 1: R I C T O P O L dot substack

588
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 1: dot com, It's COVID Updates. I really like it because

589
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 1: it's straight off the press. He's a scientist, he's looking

590
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 1: at some of the latest stuff from other scientists, and

591
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 1: he's just telling it like it is, yes, pay attention

592
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 1: to this or nope, we have to take this with

593
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 1: a grain of salt, like is omicron ominous? You know,

594
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 1: like it's just really breaking it down. There are charts

595
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 1: and grabs.

596
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 2: You know. I love that.

597
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 1: Yes, my one thing this week is Masterclass. So I

598
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 1: feel like everybody has seen an ad for master Class

599
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 1: at some point with you know, some of their favorite

600
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 1: directors or writers, and so I took the plunge and

601
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 1: actually got a subscription to Masterclass. So it's kind of

602
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 1: an app, but you can log in on your desktop

603
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 1: and they have master classes for everything from you know,

604
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,400
Speaker 1: people who have been leading in their fields so on

605
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 1: wilderness survival. Filmmaking athlete Steph Curry has done a masterclass

606
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 1: real Estate, graphic Design, Gardening, Barbecue and they're long because

607
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 1: they separated into segments and it's really well put together

608
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 1: and it's not just some random person who is interested

609
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 1: in writing and doing television.

610
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 3: They have Isa Ray doing a master class.

611
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 2: Right, what's been your favorite one so far?

612
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 3: Definitely the one with Ray.

613
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 1: She's so funny and she gets insight into how she

614
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 1: does a lot of things and like how things started

615
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 1: in the way that she's able to develop a story

616
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 1: and develop characters and how she minds in her real

617
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 1: life for character plots and things like that.

618
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 3: So it was really really good. Yeah, they got Samuel L.

619
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 1: Jackson on there, they got Gordon Ramsay on there, Alicia

620
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 1: Keys and another thing that I really love about masterclass,

621
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 1: so you can go to masterclass dot com to check

622
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 1: that out, is that you can give it as a gift.

623
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 1: So if you have a friend that's really interested in gardening,

624
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:16,840
Speaker 1: or really interested in spices, or really interested in cocktails,

625
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 1: like my friend, you can take that one masterclass and

626
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 1: you can send it to them and it's such a

627
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 1: good gift. I did that for Jimmy, I sent him

628
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 1: a barbecue one for I think it was his birthday

629
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 1: last year, and it's so fun and it's such a

630
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 1: great thoughtful gift. So masterclass dot com. Was that a

631
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 1: gift for Jimmy or a gift for you? Because I

632
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 1: know how you like barbecue?

633
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 3: It was a gift for me because guess what I

634
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 3: got ribs that weekend? Brush off the grill.

635
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 2: That's it for Lab forty three. What did you think?

636
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,240
Speaker 2: Call us at two zero two five six seven seven

637
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 2: zero two eight.

638
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 1: And let us know and don't forget. There's so much

639
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 1: more for you to dig into on our website. There'll

640
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 1: be a cheat sheet for today's lab, additional links and

641
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 1: resources in the show notes. Plus you can sign up

642
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 1: for our newsletter check it out at Dope lasspodcast dot com.

643
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 1: Special thanks to our amazing guest expert for this two

644
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 1: part series, Doctor Christine Daniels. Dope Labs is a Spotify

645
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 1: original production from Mega owned Media Group. Our producers are

646
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 1: Jenny ratlit Mask and Lydia Smith of WaveRunner Studios. Editing

647
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 1: in sound design by Rob Smerciak, mixing by Hannes Brown.

648
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 1: Original music composed and produced by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex.

649
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 2: Suguer from Spotify.

650
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Gina Delvak, and creative producers are

651
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 1: Baron Farmer and Candace Manriquez Rinn. Special thanks to Shirley

652
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 1: ramos yasmin of Fifi, camu Elolia, Till krat Key and

653
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 1: Brian Marquis. Executive producers from Mega Own Media Group are

654
00:33:53,880 --> 00:34:10,279
Speaker 1: Us T. T Show Dia and Zakiah Wattler. Do y'all

655
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 1: remember that when Joe Big at like Apple and Starbucks

656
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:15,319
Speaker 1: and Bono was.

657
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 2: I don't know, I'm like Bono was, I'm.

658
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 3: Like, same thing. Isn't the same person? Who's Who's bon Jovi?

659
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 3: I don't know.

660
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 2: They're all red hot chili peppers.

661
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 3: Come on, it's all Bruce Springsteen, you know.

662
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:35,879
Speaker 5: Mm hmm