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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grease.

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Speaker 2: With three dead bodies just outside your window, how do

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Speaker 2: you miss that? Of course, I'm talking about the three

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Speaker 2: Kansas City Chiefs fans found dead on the back porch

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Speaker 2: and in the yard of.

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Speaker 1: Friend Jordan Willis.

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Speaker 2: But this morning a sobering thought, did these so called

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Speaker 2: friend the homeowner Jordan Willis immediately pack up, move out,

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Speaker 2: lawyer up, and check into rehab as part of an

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Speaker 2: elaborate legal strategy to gain public sympathy and avoid potential

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Speaker 2: jail time.

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Speaker 1: I mean to see, Grace, this is Crime Stories.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories

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Speaker 2: and on series sex sem one eleven. Of course, we

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Speaker 2: are now learning that each of the victims out in

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Speaker 2: the yard and on the friends back porch in plane

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Speaker 2: view from inside, had lethal doses a fentanyl and more

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Speaker 2: in their system. I'm talking about potentially three times a

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Speaker 2: normal dosage or more. We have not seen the official

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Speaker 2: toxicology report. We are getting this information from family now. Again,

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Speaker 2: no one has been named a POI, person of interest

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Speaker 2: or suspect in this case. All the while, the friend

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Speaker 2: slash homeowner remains behind closed doors in an alleged rehab facility.

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Speaker 2: First of all take a listen to this.

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Speaker 3: When Jordan Willis checked into rehab, family and close friends

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Speaker 3: said he decided to tackle his addiction issue head on

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Speaker 3: after the wake up call he got when three friends

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Speaker 3: died outside his house. Retired NYPD inspector Paul Morrow tells

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Speaker 3: Fox News will As checking into rehab could be a

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Speaker 3: preemptive move to get a shorter sentence if he is

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Speaker 3: charged with a crime.

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Speaker 4: Early toxicology results indicate all three men found dead outside

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Speaker 4: Jordan Willis's rented home had cocaine and fentanyl in their systems,

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Speaker 4: according to WDAF. The families confirmed police have the initial

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Speaker 4: toxicology reports. According to a family member, the level of

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Speaker 4: drugs in their system is high three times the amount

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Speaker 4: of a lethal fentanyl dosage. And police say the case

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Speaker 4: remains an ongoing death investigation and.

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Speaker 2: The fact seem to be revealing that the friend slash

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Speaker 2: homeowner may have had something to do with mixing the

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Speaker 2: deadly drug cocktail.

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Speaker 1: Is that true? What do we know? Listen?

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Speaker 4: Caleb mcginney says his cousin Clayton mcguinney, was his best friend.

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Speaker 4: Caleb claims Jordan Willis has been known since high school

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Speaker 4: as the chemist who would make drugs for the specific

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Speaker 4: needs of the individual. Mcginny also says that Ricky Johnson,

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Speaker 4: Clayton mcginney, and David Harrington were all best friends. They

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Speaker 4: all knew Jordan Willis from high school, but from a

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Speaker 4: close knit quote friendship standpoint, Jordan Willis was kind of

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Speaker 4: off to the side.

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Speaker 5: The mysterious fifth man in the group on the night

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Speaker 5: of the football watch party, Alex Lee, is a good man,

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Speaker 5: according to Caleb. Asked if Lee might have brought drugs

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Speaker 5: to the get together, Caleb mcginney tells News Media's hell no.

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Speaker 5: Mcghey also says he's not happy Jordan Willis used his cousin,

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Speaker 5: his best friend as a guinea pig, then effed up

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Speaker 5: and made a mistake.

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Speaker 2: Let me go straight out, We got an all star

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Speaker 2: panel with us right now. But let me go first

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Speaker 2: to Grace Smith out of Kansas City Case TV five

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Speaker 2: investigative reporter, Grace, thank you for being with us. First

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Speaker 2: of all, is it true that the friend and for

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Speaker 2: those of you that can't see me, I'm definitely using

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Speaker 2: air quotes with friends like these.

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Speaker 1: Who needs enemies? The so called friend slash.

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Speaker 2: Homeowner Jordan Willis is it true he's checked into rehab

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Speaker 2: and if so, do you know where?

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Speaker 6: According to family members, they have told me that he

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Speaker 6: has checked into rehab. I do not know where. I

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Speaker 6: have reached out to his attorney and he told me

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Speaker 6: that he is not commenting further on anything until those

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Speaker 6: full toxicology reports are in hand.

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Speaker 1: Is that the same.

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Speaker 2: Lawyer that won't reveal what has happened to the friend

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Speaker 2: slash homeowner's cell phone, won't tell you what was on it,

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Speaker 2: won't give it to you, don't know.

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Speaker 1: If it's been handed over to police. Is that him

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Speaker 1: same lawyer?

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Speaker 6: Yes, he says he is not commenting on anything until

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Speaker 6: those reports are out.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so much to figure out.

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Speaker 2: But first of all, we know for sure, according to

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Speaker 2: family members of the victims, that.

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Speaker 1: The homeowner has gone to rehab.

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Speaker 2: Well, it wouldn't be the first time that a celebrity

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Speaker 2: or an individual gets in hot water and thanks rehab?

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Speaker 2: Is the answer? Does the name Mel Gibson ring a bell?

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Speaker 1: Listen?

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Speaker 7: Mel Gibson was arrested for driving under the influence the

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Speaker 7: first time in nineteen eighty four. Years later, Gibson was

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Speaker 7: once again arrested for drunk driving. He was conspeeding in

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Speaker 7: Malibu in two thousand and six by Los Angeles County

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Speaker 7: Sheriff's Department. According to the police report and arresting officer,

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Speaker 7: Gibson lashed out at the police in a tirade, making

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Speaker 7: anti Semitic remarks against Jewish people, which became known to

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Speaker 7: millions of people worldwide, with his remarks ultimately harming his career.

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Speaker 7: After his dy in two thousand and six, Gibson entered

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Speaker 7: a treatment center for his drug and alcohol addiction, and

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Speaker 7: after a few more alcohol related embarrassments, God's sober after

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Speaker 7: attending his last rehab in twenty ten.

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Speaker 2: Del Carson joining me, high profile lawyer out of Jacksonville,

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Speaker 2: also former FBI and author of arrest Proof Yourself at

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Speaker 2: del Carsonlaw dot com. Del Carson before I play mail

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Speaker 2: Gibson calling a lady cop sugar tits before I play that.

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Speaker 1: Can you explain to me the.

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Speaker 2: Legal strategy of packing up all your belongings, moving out

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Speaker 2: of the house, lawyering up, and shaking into rehabity.

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Speaker 8: It is so easy to get people to talk about

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Speaker 8: stuff they should not talk to the police about. So if

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Speaker 8: you can encounter that individual somewhere, even if he's in rehab.

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Speaker 8: Remember that's not protected speech and rehab. And so the

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Speaker 8: result there is is said that he runs his mouth

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Speaker 8: and he indicates that he was a supplier. In Florida,

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Speaker 8: you'd be subject to the death penalty. And that's in Florida.

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Speaker 8: But they think they're real seriously here, So any providing

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Speaker 8: of narcotics or drugs to someone that results in the death,

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Speaker 8: you're on the hook for not just the life filmy,

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Speaker 8: but for execution.

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Speaker 1: Guys. It's pr strategy, that's what it is now.

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Speaker 2: As many people have pointed out, maybe this is just

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Speaker 2: a scenario where a bunch of guys get together to

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Speaker 2: watch a game, they do drugs, and unspknownst to them,

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Speaker 2: their drugs are cut with a lethal dose of fentanyl.

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Speaker 1: Maybe the friend slash home nunner is.

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Speaker 2: Just lucky to be alive. But how is it that

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Speaker 2: he's alive and they're all dead?

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Speaker 1: Again?

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Speaker 2: Back to entering rehab when you are in legal hot

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Speaker 2: water and not just mel Gibson, Charlie Sheen makes a

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Speaker 2: rush to rehab.

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Speaker 1: Listen.

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Speaker 7: Charlie Sheen was infamously fired from the CBS sitcom Two

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Speaker 7: and a Half Men, in which he played the leader

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Speaker 7: character for the first eight seasons back in twenty eleven,

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Speaker 7: after he began displaying erretic behavior. Now, at that time,

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Speaker 7: Charlie had been dealing with drug and alcohol addiction for years.

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Speaker 7: He'd previously entered rehab after experiencing a near fatal overdose

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Speaker 7: in ninety eight, and he'd faced allegations of physical and

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Speaker 7: verbal abuse from multiple women, including his now ex wife

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Speaker 7: Denise Richards, who claimed he threatened to kill her and

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Speaker 7: their daughter Sammy and Lola. The actor also denied that

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Speaker 7: he had any addiction to drugs or alcohol, and separately

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Speaker 7: criticized alcoholics anonymous during an interview with USA Today, saying

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Speaker 7: that it was for people that aren't special she and

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Speaker 7: eventually did get so. Brand now claimed six years of sobriety.

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Speaker 2: Okay, And of course we can't ignore Alex Murdoch, convicted

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Speaker 2: of double murder when he's looking at the claims about

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Speaker 2: the bodies of his wife and son found in a

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Speaker 2: location where he just was according to his according to

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Speaker 2: a cell phone, his answer to enter rehab listen.

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Speaker 4: Three months after the murder of his wife and son,

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Speaker 4: and just days after he is shot in the head

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Speaker 4: during a staged roadside assassination. Alex Murdogg announces he is

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Speaker 4: going into rehab to treat a twenty year addiction to opioids.

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Speaker 4: In the hours leading up to his rehab announcement, Murdog

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Speaker 4: is fired by his law firm, accused of stealing thousands

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Speaker 4: of dollars from clients' accounts. Alex Murdog issued a statement

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Speaker 4: that says, in part, the murders of my wife and

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Speaker 4: son have caused an incredibly difficult time in my life.

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Speaker 4: I have made a lot of decisions that I truly regret.

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Speaker 4: I am resigning from my law firm and entering rehab

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Speaker 4: after a long battle that has been exasperated by these murders.

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Speaker 4: I am immensely sorry to everyone I've heard, including my family, friends,

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Speaker 4: and colleagues. I ask for prayers as I rehabilitate myself

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Speaker 4: and my relationships.

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Speaker 2: Okay, well, the rehab stunt may work and CA California,

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Speaker 2: it did not work in South Carolina.

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Speaker 1: Murnaud goes down for double murder crime Stories, with Nancy

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Speaker 1: Grace joining us.

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Speaker 2: Barry Hutchinson, senior former law enforcement owner and chief investigator

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Speaker 2: for Barry and Associates Investigative Services.

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Speaker 1: Barry, thank you for being with us. How many times.

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Speaker 2: Have you seen a defendant, a suspect, a person of interest, anyone,

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Speaker 2: whether they're a suspect or not, get in hot water,

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Speaker 2: get in trouble and immediately rush to re happen.

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Speaker 9: Oh, it's pretty much. You know a common play, you

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Speaker 9: know in a defense handbook. You know, to me, it's

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Speaker 9: defense lawyer one oh one deploy and you know they

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Speaker 9: have to you have to understand, you know, a lot

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Speaker 9: of times the defense has to have time, just like

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Speaker 9: investigators have to have time to find out what's going

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Speaker 9: on and formulate the defensive plan for their client. And

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Speaker 9: I think that's exactly what's going on here. I think

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Speaker 9: that he thinks that if he's locked away in rehab,

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Speaker 9: they're not going to have access to him. He's not

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Speaker 9: going to be interrogated. Further, he's not going to have

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Speaker 9: a mediate exposure to law enforcement that they can pry

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Speaker 9: deeper into everything that's going on with this situation and deal.

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Speaker 2: Carson brought it up regarding attorney client confidentiality, physician patient confidentiality.

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Speaker 1: Whatever you say to a psyche or a counselor.

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Speaker 2: In rehab would be protected, but if you're saying it

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Speaker 2: in a group, or you say it to your roommate

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Speaker 2: or your bunkie that is not protected under the Constitution.

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Speaker 2: Joining me now, renowned medical examiner, toxicologist, pathologist, and opioid

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Speaker 2: treatment expert.

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Speaker 1: He is literally the.

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Speaker 2: One who wrote the book, the author of American Narcan,

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Speaker 2: Nolac Sown and Heroin Fentanyl Associated Mortality. And that's what

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Speaker 2: we've got here, according to what we think will soon

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Speaker 2: be revealed in the toxicology reports in the autopsies of

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Speaker 2: these three dead friends, Doctor William Moroney Joining us, Doctor Moroney,

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Speaker 2: could you analyze for us and please dumb me down

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Speaker 2: for me?

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Speaker 1: I'm just a JD. You're the MD.

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Speaker 2: What you think of the levels that are circulating within

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Speaker 2: these three deceased victims' bodies. I mean, fentanyl doesn't come

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Speaker 2: laced with cocaine and vice versa.

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Speaker 1: What happened in your mind, doctor Moroney?

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Speaker 10: Well, we have an enormous drug problem all over large cities,

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Speaker 10: rural areas, urban centers, and fentanyl, as I indicated in

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Speaker 10: my book in twenty seventeen and eighteen, is huge. People.

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Speaker 10: Government's universities focused on prescription medicines and that was like

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Speaker 10: going bull hunting and shooting rabbits. Everybody has been off target.

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Speaker 10: Fentanyl has creeped into fake pills.

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Speaker 1: Okay, first of all, what do you mean by a

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Speaker 1: fake peel?

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Speaker 10: If a drug dealer has people that are afraid of

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Speaker 10: his powders, he says, hey, I got some purposets, Hey

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Speaker 10: I got some oxyconin thirties. Those aren't available anymore. They're fake.

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Speaker 10: They're made in somebody's garage. They've got a pill press.

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Speaker 10: They mix this stuff up in bowls, just like brownies,

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Speaker 10: and they wear masks and they put the powder in

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Speaker 10: the press and they make fake pills that kind of

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Speaker 10: look like pills that you'd get, but real pharmacists and

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Speaker 10: real doctors know the difference. And they're putting sentinel in

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Speaker 10: fake pills. And somebody say, hey have a Viking, and hey,

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Speaker 10: but the Viking is not available, so they're making fake pills.

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Speaker 10: So you have two choices. How did they get cocaine

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Speaker 10: and fentanyl? The first choice is they took them separately,

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Speaker 10: with fake pills and cocaine. The second choice is they

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Speaker 10: did cocaine, knowing that they'd say, hey, you know, we

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Speaker 10: had some beer celebrate, got a little cocaine, And then

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Speaker 10: there was fentanyl in the cocaine, because that's what drug

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Speaker 10: dealers are saying. This is special stuff, man, it's really

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Speaker 10: going to help you out here. But the truth is,

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Speaker 10: and we have an example in Kalamazoo, Michigan, there were

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Speaker 10: eighteen overdoses in one weekend, ten deaths, and everybody died

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Speaker 10: a fentanyl but they went out looking to buy cocaine.

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Speaker 10: And this is a nationwide problem of unintended sentinal overdose

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Speaker 10: deaths for people who've always just done stimulants, they think

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Speaker 10: stilent at the end of the bar at two o'clock

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Speaker 10: in the morning, people do cocaine and they go to

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Speaker 10: private after hours clubs and they dance all night.

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Speaker 8: We have this problem of.

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Speaker 10: Drug consumption and there is no end in sight.

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Speaker 2: Weld On, just a second, Doctor William Roney is telling

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Speaker 2: us about the fentinyl epidemic across our country. But as

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Speaker 2: it relates to this case, Doctor Moroney, according to family members,

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Speaker 2: the victims had a fatal amount of fentel in their

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Speaker 2: systems three times the amount of a lethal fentanyl dose.

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Speaker 1: Again, I'm not asking you to.

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Speaker 2: Address the wider issue fentanyl ODS and the epidemic in

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Speaker 2: our country. I'm talking about this case. What would be

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Speaker 2: a lethal od overdose a fentanyl?

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Speaker 1: What would that look like physically to.

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Speaker 2: Our listeners and viewers if they were to see it,

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Speaker 2: and what would that do to your body? Let's start

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Speaker 2: at the beginning, Okay, starting with a what is a

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Speaker 2: lethal dose a fentanyl for an average size mail, I'm going.

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Speaker 10: To tell you that if you look at grains of

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Speaker 10: salt in an empty t spoon, three or four crystals,

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Speaker 10: three or four grains of salt, we'll knock a seventy

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Speaker 10: kilogram or one hundred and twenty pound man dead in

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Speaker 10: six minutes.

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Speaker 2: Wait, that's almost too much to believe. Let me understand

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Speaker 2: what you just said. Yeah, guys, stay with me please,

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Speaker 2: I've got one of the world's foremost experts on opioid

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Speaker 2: crises and fentanyl, doctor William Roney. I understand that you

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Speaker 2: just said three specs three crystals, like three salt crystals

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Speaker 2: would knock a grown man.

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Speaker 8: Flat in six minutes dead.

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Speaker 2: Why do we even make fentanyl? Why is there even fentanyl?

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Speaker 2: Why is it here? If it only takes three salt

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Speaker 2: crystals worth to kill a grown man, why does it

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Speaker 2: even exist?

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Speaker 10: Because in the drug pipeline, the changeover for profits eliminated

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Speaker 10: heroin because fentanyl is so much more profitable.

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Speaker 1: Fentanyl is cheaper to make than heroin, Is that what

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Speaker 1: you're saying?

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Speaker 10: A thousand times cheaper?

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Speaker 1: Why why is fentanyl so cheap to make? And our

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Speaker 1: pharmaceutical company is still making it?

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Speaker 10: Well, they make it for patches for hospice patients. But

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Speaker 10: the reason why heroin has to be grown in a

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Speaker 10: third world country.

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Speaker 9: Heroin has to.

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Speaker 10: Be cultivated you mean poppies, Yes, then it's sent to

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Speaker 10: France or Mexico and it's processed.

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Speaker 8: This is labor.

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Speaker 2: This is transportation as opposed to like I'm breaking bad

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Speaker 2: out in the desert and a mobile home.

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Speaker 1: You can cook up fentanyl.

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Speaker 10: It's done. We don't make it in America. They make

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Speaker 10: it cheaper somewhere else and then it comes across the border.

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Speaker 2: You're making me realize how easily these guys could have

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Speaker 2: owe deed. Now a lot has been made of the

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Speaker 2: way they were positioned where they were in the backyard.

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Speaker 2: As a matter of fact, take a listen to what

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Speaker 2: we've learned from one of the victims, brothers. Take a

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Speaker 2: listen to our cut twenty eight Dave Matt Crime Online.

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Speaker 7: The mystery surrounding the deaths of three men who died

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Speaker 7: outside in the cold while a fourth friend slept for

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Speaker 7: two days in the house just took another odd turn.

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Speaker 7: The brother of one of the deceased men, Ricky Johnson,

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Speaker 7: says the way the men were found has him wondering

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Speaker 7: what happened. One body was discovered on the back porch

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Speaker 7: by police, while the two other deceased men were found

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Speaker 7: in the backyard. According to Jonathan Price, David Harrington was

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Speaker 7: found on a lawn chair on the back porch rather

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Speaker 7: than all three men laying flat. Paints a picture they

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Speaker 7: didn't have from the beginning.

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Speaker 2: You know, renown psychologist joining me from Manhattan, Karen Stark

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Speaker 2: TV radio trauma expert and consultant at Karenstark dot com.

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Speaker 2: That's Karen with a C in case you're trying to

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Speaker 2: get in touch with her. Karen, I learned this really

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Speaker 2: the hard way in court. I managed to save the case,

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Speaker 2: but every detail matters.

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Speaker 1: At first, we heard.

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Speaker 2: That one victim was lying prone on the back porch

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Speaker 2: and the other two were out in the garden. In

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Speaker 2: the backyard. Now, the brother of one of the victims

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Speaker 2: has pointed out that the back porch. Victim was sitting

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Speaker 2: in a lounge chair. Now does it make a difference.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, but I do know this, Karen Stark,

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Speaker 2: Every single detail is important because there were reports the

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Speaker 2: three have been dragged to the backyard and to the

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Speaker 2: back porch. But who would drag a two hundred plus

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Speaker 2: pound man and then prop him up in a lounge chair.

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Speaker 2: I mean, every fact matters, Karen Stark, And right now

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Speaker 2: these families are grappling with the facts.

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Speaker 1: Is this the case of four, possibly five guys.

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Speaker 2: Celebrating, partying, drinking, doing some cocaine it's laced with fentanyl?

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Speaker 1: Can Maroney explain?

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Speaker 2: Cant cocaine lace withyl have that much ventel that it

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Speaker 2: kills you?

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Speaker 1: Was it the reverse?

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Speaker 2: But about the details, Karen, why are they so important

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Speaker 2: when we're grappling with who's telling the truth? What happened

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Speaker 2: to these guys? Was it an accident? Was it more nefarious?

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Speaker 2: Why did this guy rush off? Get a lawyer and

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Speaker 2: check into rehab? Details matter, Karen, start.

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Speaker 11: They certainly do. Nancy, do you remember when we used

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Speaker 11: to sit and listen to people who were in front

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Speaker 11: of the police and they were trying to let them

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Speaker 11: know their stories and giving all kinds of explanations, and

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Speaker 11: we would look for ways that they were saying the

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Speaker 11: smallest thing that didn't jibe with everything else that they said.

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Speaker 8: When people are even talking.

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Speaker 11: To therapists like me, you really want to note every

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Speaker 11: single specific fact so you can help them figure out

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Speaker 11: their lives, make sense of things that have happened to them.

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Speaker 11: And in this case, it's just such a strange story.

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Speaker 11: We all have to be detected trying to put together

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Speaker 11: how could this possibly have happened. Now there's stentanel.

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Speaker 9: In the cocaine.

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Speaker 11: We know that many people have died from that. That

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Speaker 11: makes a huge difference. So yes, the details really do

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Speaker 11: mat or we've known that for years.

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Speaker 2: Doctor William Moroney jumping off what Karen Stark has just said,

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Speaker 2: and remember to the rest of the panel, jump in

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Speaker 2: if you have any thought on this. You're you're a

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Speaker 2: think tank, you're the brain Trust, so please jump in,

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Speaker 2: doctor Moroney.

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Speaker 1: Would it be sentinel.

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Speaker 2: Mixed in with cocaine or cocaine mixed in with ventanyl

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Speaker 2: And do they.

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Speaker 1: Look the same.

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Speaker 10: You can't tell the difference as far as the size

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Speaker 10: of the powder or the color, but it would always

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Speaker 10: be sentinel mixed in the cocaine, because cocaine by itself

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Speaker 10: is not fatal, the majority of it being cocaine, it's

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Speaker 10: the vehicle now, it's what's used to deliver it. And

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Speaker 10: putting cocaine in fentanyl would mean that the volume of

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Speaker 10: fentanyl would have to be like cut. Nobody's going to

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Speaker 10: do that. They sneak this stuff in and tell you

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Speaker 10: it's really good cocaine. There's no drug dealer that's going

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Speaker 10: to say I've got some really good fentanyl for you,

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Speaker 10: because everybody scared popeless of it.

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Speaker 8: Nobody you're saying that even if you tasted it could

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Speaker 8: kill you, which is the traditional way of besting cocaine.

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Speaker 10: Yes, yes, but.

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Speaker 8: Snorted and and that.

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Speaker 10: These people, I would bet they're not regular.

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Speaker 11: And I'm pretty sure that you could shoot a cocaine.

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Speaker 11: You don't just snort it and crack is off a

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Speaker 11: cocaine and that's lit up.

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Speaker 1: So how would it appear, doctor William Moroney.

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Speaker 10: It's going to look like powder sugar, and it's in

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Speaker 10: small plastic square packets that fold over, and people will

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Speaker 10: put it in spoons and put it in their nose.

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Speaker 10: People that want to get high with cocaine. We've been

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Speaker 10: injecting cocaine for decades, but traditionally, good old boys football fans,

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Speaker 10: big tough guys, they snort this stuff while they're drinking.

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Speaker 10: It would be interesting to see what's the blood alcohol

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Speaker 10: level with this, because then it'll tell you that it's

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Speaker 10: a casual timeline, a chronological drug delivery that begins with alcohol,

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Speaker 10: goes to cocaine. And surprisingly, there's fentanyl in the cocaine.

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Speaker 10: But we've seen this all across America. We've seen fentyl

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Speaker 10: in cocaine for almost a decade in New York, Boston, Baltimore, Detroit, Chicago,

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Speaker 10: and people are afraid of it. That's why they make

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Speaker 10: fake pills.

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Speaker 2: It would also be very interesting Barry Hutchiness, your former

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Speaker 2: l and owner of Buried Associates Investigative Services. It would

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Speaker 2: also be interesting to find out if cops went into

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Speaker 2: the home and processed it with drug dogs a K

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Speaker 2: nine that could actually smell. Hey, is there are were

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Speaker 2: there lines of coke on the dining room table, or

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Speaker 2: on the coffee table, or on a plate or on

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Speaker 2: any surface in that home?

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Speaker 9: Right nature that's correct. You know one thing that the

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Speaker 9: public needs to understand. I'm sure you understand this being

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Speaker 9: a former prosecutor. In regards to a crime scene, there's

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Speaker 9: a rule that's very prevalent, and that is that something

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Speaker 9: is always left at a crime scene and something that's

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Speaker 9: always taken away from a crime scene. Now that could

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Speaker 9: be trace evidence, it could be physical evidence. So I

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Speaker 9: think certain that a drug dog could have been used.

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Speaker 9: I haven't heard that a drug dog.

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Speaker 8: Could have been used.

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Speaker 9: And I don't know what kind of search even took

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Speaker 9: place at the house because that hasn't been made public

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Speaker 9: here that I know was. But certainly I think that

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Speaker 9: the Kansas City Police Department in the Platt County Prosecutor's

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Speaker 9: office are looking at every angle as far as searching everything.

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Speaker 9: And you touched on something earlier. I think it's really

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Speaker 9: important as well. Getting back to the defense lawyer and

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Speaker 9: this subject moving out of the house as the homeowner

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Speaker 9: right away, My personal belief is is that that's done

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Speaker 9: deliberately so that they can come back later and say

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Speaker 9: that if something is recovered in the house after the fact,

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Speaker 9: from like this state forward, that they can the fact

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Speaker 9: of this guy moving out, and they can you know,

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Speaker 9: that can be argued to a jury to where they

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Speaker 9: could say, you know, they only need one person to

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Speaker 9: not believe the prosecution story, you know, as to what happened.

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Speaker 9: And so I think that they're deliberately putting things in

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Speaker 9: place here that could stumble a jury, you know, later on,

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Speaker 9: in anticipation of prosecution of this case.

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Speaker 2: And moving out so quickly Lockstock and Barrel gets rid

440
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 2: of who knows how much evidence. And of course, doctor Moroney,

441
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 2: when you put dishes in the dishwasher and turn it on,

442
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 2: there goes all the evidence off those plates or whatever

443
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:32,919
Speaker 2: surface was being used, whatever you tinsle a bowl, a plate,

444
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 2: a saucer.

445
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,639
Speaker 8: Why or a three guys outside? Is something all do

446
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:42,399
Speaker 8: something with thermogenesis in the body making those want to

447
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:44,919
Speaker 8: be cooler. I don't know the answer to that question,

448
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 8: but there's a reason they were all outside when they died.

449
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,920
Speaker 2: As a matter of fact, Del Carson, you're exactly correct.

450
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 1: What does the temperature have to do with it? Well,

451
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 1: it was not freezing, listen.

452
00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:00,199
Speaker 4: David Harrington's father is also challenging the idea that the

453
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:04,159
Speaker 4: men froze to death. Daily Mail reports John Harrington saying,

454
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 4: I don't think it's very likely they froze to death,

455
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 4: like some people are saying it just wasn't cold enough.

456
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,920
Speaker 4: The temperature for Kansas City late in the night of Sunday,

457
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 4: January seven was around thirty six degrees and the temp

458
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:23,440
Speaker 4: remained above freezing all day Monday, January eighth. Tuesday January

459
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,360
Speaker 4: nine was the coldest day, when it was twenty six

460
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:30,120
Speaker 4: degrees by two pm and twenty at ten pm. The

461
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 4: first thirty six hours of the mystery, the temp is

462
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 4: at or above freezing, and it is only the last

463
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 4: twelve hours where it gets really cold.

464
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 2: But that is a common misconception that the temp has

465
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 2: to be freezing for a person to freeze to death.

466
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 2: You don't freeze to death. It's not like putting a

467
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 2: popsigle in the freezer. You get hypothermia and you die

468
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 2: basically from exposure to cold temps. But what were you saying,

469
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 2: Mary Hudginson, following up on what deal Carson brought one of.

470
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 9: The big things. I think that's going to be one

471
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 9: of the key turning points of the investigation. It's going

472
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 9: to be the toxicology report, and you know, with everything

473
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:13,239
Speaker 9: included in it, a question that I would have is,

474
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 9: you know, why were these guys outside in the very

475
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 9: early morning hours when this happened. And to me, one

476
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 9: thing stands out. They would be outside because they were

477
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 9: out there smoking either cigarettes or marijuana, because this was

478
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 9: a rented home and probably on the lease it says

479
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 9: that they're not allowed to smoke in the house, so

480
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 9: that would explain why they were outside at that point. Now,

481
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 9: whether the drugs were ingested through marijuana or the cocaine

482
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 9: or both is yet to be seen, but I think

483
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 9: that's going to play a key part in the discovery

484
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 9: process of all the evidence involved. That's going to help

485
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 9: narrow down and shake through the funnel, if you will,

486
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 9: the key elements of the case coupled back with you

487
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 9: spoke of earlier this week, Nancy, with the phone records

488
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 9: of every single person that were involved in being there

489
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 9: that night, I think that's going to be a key element.

490
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 9: And you know, addressing the aspect of somebody being drug

491
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 9: you know, or dragged rather to the outside area, I

492
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 9: don't see that happening because one of the guys, at

493
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,720
Speaker 9: least not by one person anyway, because it's my understanding

494
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 9: that one of the one of the victims involved was

495
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 9: an approximation of three hundred pounds and that is a

496
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 9: lot of weight that's not assisting you to be dragged anywhere.

497
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 9: I mean, if you go to the police academy, you know,

498
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 9: one of the tests you have to take in the

499
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 9: police academy to even get into the police academy is

500
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 9: the dummy drag. And that dummy drag is one hundred

501
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 9: and sixty pound dummy, but it's dead weight and it

502
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 9: feels like it weighs five hundred pounds when you grab

503
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 9: a hold of it. So I don't think that one

504
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 9: person could have drugged that individual, any individual that was

505
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 9: a victim at night outside without the help of somebody else.

506
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 9: So I think that's going to be a key element

507
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 9: also that's going to be investigating.

508
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 2: Time stories with Nancy Grace to you, doctor William Moroney,

509
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 2: expert in not only fentanyl but all sorts of opioid

510
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 2: related deaths and studies of it. Doctor Moroney, what do

511
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 2: you make of what we're saying regarding del Carson's question,

512
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 2: is there's something about fentanyl that makes you hot?

513
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 1: Would they want to go outside in those.

514
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 2: Kind of temperatures and also address the issue of freezing.

515
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 10: Well, I agree that there's no way anybody froze there.

516
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 10: I lived in Kansas City for twelve years. It gets

517
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 10: cold a little bit, but it's warmer during the day

518
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 10: and it's not as cold as that's off the table.

519
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 10: But everybody that gets real close to a fentinel overdose,

520
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 10: and I see non fatal overdoses, they come in, they

521
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:12,640
Speaker 10: talk to me, and they enter into treatment in my clinic.

522
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 10: So they're non fatal overdoses. And then I see the

523
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 10: fatal overdoses when we go to autopsy and we work

524
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 10: with the pathologists and the police try to reconstruct it.

525
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 10: Everybody that's around a fatal overdose tries to get them

526
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 10: cold air. And if you feel yourself falling out, you

527
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 10: look for cold.

528
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 9: Fresh air.

529
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 10: So they could have been in the house, and it

530
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 10: sounds good that they would have went out to smoke,

531
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 10: but if they would have felt the fentinel kicking in,

532
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 10: they would have said, you know, I need some fresh air.

533
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 10: Kind of like when you're in that bar all night

534
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 10: long and it's smoky and it's hot and you had

535
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 10: a little too much of drink. You step outside that

536
00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:00,120
Speaker 10: cold air, it straightens you up right away. When you're

537
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 10: drinking alcohol, it does not straighten you up. With a fentanyl,

538
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 10: but you seek something cold, and if you think you're

539
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 10: going to fall out, you sit down, you look for

540
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 10: a chair, you lean up against the car. And sometimes

541
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 10: on death scenes and crime scenes, the people around the

542
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 10: person that's overdosing throw them in a cold shower.

543
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 8: So that's what people seek.

544
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 10: That is the other reason why they would have been outside.

545
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 10: They felt they were going to fall out. They started

546
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:39,239
Speaker 10: feeling sleepy, they couldn't think they were drooling. There it

547
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 10: was difficult to breathe, So you step outside to get

548
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 10: something to straighten up before you fall out.

549
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 2: I mean, doctor Maroney, you and I have talked about

550
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 2: this one hundred times before, but it's elementary. It was

551
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 2: even in The Wizard of Oz. Remember when Dorothy fell

552
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 2: asleep right in the poppy field.

553
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 10: Snow he made herself comfortable, snow.

554
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,960
Speaker 1: Had to wake her up. The cold woke her up.

555
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 1: That's not just a kid's story.

556
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 10: They see the gold, the straighten up.

557
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 2: So was the culprit is the guilty culprit in the

558
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:20,720
Speaker 2: deaths of three Kansas City chiefs, fans, all three best friends,

559
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:26,320
Speaker 2: all too common a fentanyl O D dig here, Doctor

560
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 2: William Maroney, trust me if he says it about fentanyl

561
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 2: or opioids.

562
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 1: It's right that.

563
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 2: Three grains like salt, grains of salt are enough to

564
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 2: kill a grown man.

565
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:45,479
Speaker 1: Is that the.

566
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:50,400
Speaker 2: Culprit, the all too common culprit the killer in America

567
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 2: and in this case, but we've got another problem. Take

568
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 2: a listen to Nicole parton Crime Online, Cut three two.

569
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 4: Caleb mcginney says his cousin Clayton mcginney was his best friend.

570
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 4: Caleb claims Jordan Willis has been known since high school

571
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 4: as the chemist who would make drugs for the specific

572
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:13,360
Speaker 4: needs of the individual. Mcginny also says that Ricky Johnson,

573
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:17,799
Speaker 4: Clayton mcginney, and David Harrington were all best friends. They

574
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 4: all knew Jordan Willis from high school, but from a

575
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 4: close knit, quote friendship standpoint, Jordan Willis was kind of

576
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 4: off to the side.

577
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 2: Does anybody remember the incredibly popular weekly program All in

578
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 2: the Family. The star was Archie Bunker in real life

579
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:41,239
Speaker 2: Carol O'Connor. He went head to head in court with

580
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 2: his son's drug supplier. His son died of an overdose.

581
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:48,320
Speaker 1: And Carol O'Connor won.

582
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 2: So, based on what we're hearing from Nicole partner at

583
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 2: crime online dot Com. Is their culpability on behalf of

584
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 2: the friend slash co owner? Did he personally mix the

585
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 2: drugs for his friends?

586
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:09,800
Speaker 1: Did he know or not know fentanyl was involved?

587
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 2: The fact that all three of them outside had fentanyl

588
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:18,319
Speaker 2: in their system is no coincidence. What about the friend

589
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,880
Speaker 2: slash homeowner? Did he have fentanyl or cocaine in his system?

590
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:26,799
Speaker 2: Was he even tested? Those are answers we don't know.

591
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:30,840
Speaker 2: But to high profile lawyer joining us out of Jacksonville,

592
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:35,800
Speaker 2: Dale Carson, would he be responsible if he personally mixed

593
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 2: the drugs?

594
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:41,720
Speaker 8: There's no question. If they find the chemical sceilarity between

595
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 8: the drugs that are laying around in that house somewhere

596
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,000
Speaker 8: and the drugs that are on the clothing or the

597
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 8: face of these individuals who died, he's definitely chargeable. And

598
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 8: as I said in Florida which now deafinality charged. So

599
00:36:56,600 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 8: if they find the supplier anywhere, that individual's likely retarded

600
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:05,800
Speaker 8: whose manslaught on other states, possibly second degree murder.

601
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:10,320
Speaker 2: Many family members of the three victims are hearing.

602
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 1: None of it.

603
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:15,760
Speaker 7: Listen Harrington's girlfriend of seventeen years flat out says David

604
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,919
Speaker 7: was murdered. Those three guys were murdered. The Kansas City

605
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 7: Police said from the very beginning the deaths are not

606
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 7: being investigated as a homicide, but Lori Cruz says her

607
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 7: boyfriend of seventeen years did not use drugs and that

608
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:30,320
Speaker 7: he was murdered.

609
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,479
Speaker 5: Since early in the investigation, police have said the case

610
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 5: is not being investigative's foul play, but some of the

611
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 5: loved ones of the deceased believe Willis played a role

612
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:43,760
Speaker 5: in their deaths. John Harrington, father of David Harrington, whose

613
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,360
Speaker 5: body was found on the open porch, said that he

614
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 5: and David's mother both are convinced that Jordan Willis played

615
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 5: a part in the deaths.

616
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:55,319
Speaker 2: With conflicting reports about what really happened that night. To you,

617
00:37:55,480 --> 00:38:00,880
Speaker 2: doctor William Roney, can you assume that if there was

618
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:07,000
Speaker 2: a report indicating three times the level of a deadly

619
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:10,240
Speaker 2: dos to fentanyl, which really wouldn't be that much according

620
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:14,240
Speaker 2: to you, it'd be like nine grams of sault would

621
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 2: that be considered the coeod cause of death one hundred percent?

622
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 10: When we look at toxicology, we look at the references

623
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 10: and unless we have any other history to contradict that,

624
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 10: like corneraertor disease or asthma sentinels At the top of

625
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 10: the list. Fentinyl is the number one killer between the

626
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:44,360
Speaker 10: age of nineteen and fifty in Americans with drug toxicity deaths.

627
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 10: And the other thing is when we look at the ratio.

628
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 10: I know I'm going to talk science here, it's a

629
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:50,840
Speaker 10: little bit of medicine.

630
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 9: Forgive me.

631
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 10: When you look at the ratio of fentinyl versus nor fentinyl,

632
00:38:56,520 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 10: the first metabolite. If the fentanyl is out there in

633
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:04,480
Speaker 10: a ten to one ratio, then these guys got the

634
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:07,720
Speaker 10: drug and died within minutes.

635
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:10,880
Speaker 1: But why not the homeowner? Why not the friends?

636
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,759
Speaker 10: Drug dealers don't like doing their own drugs, They don't

637
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:18,880
Speaker 10: make money doing that. Then this is all about the

638
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 10: economies of scale. The more he has to sell, we

639
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 10: not only have to look at the house, look at

640
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 10: the garbage, look at what he's had out there, Look

641
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 10: at the garage, look at the basement. And other people

642
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 10: will come out and talk about this person either selling

643
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 10: cocaine and they've had fentanyl but they didn't die, or

644
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:45,040
Speaker 10: he's pressing fraudulent tablets that are to look like OxyContin,

645
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 10: but they're really fentanyl. If you look back at that ratio,

646
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,719
Speaker 10: the ratio or the parent compound to the metaboli will

647
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:58,040
Speaker 10: tell you how fast they died. It's going to be

648
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 10: critical to the other problem to you.

649
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 2: Barry Hutchinson Senior, Karen Stark and Del Carson or all

650
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 2: the let me just say euphemistically, conflicting statements inconsistent statements,

651
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 2: also known as lies. That the homeowner slash friend has

652
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 2: told that there wasn't a fifth person there, and then

653
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 2: the fifth person emerges that his dogs were at his

654
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 2: dad's house. That's important because in almost three days, when

655
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:29,840
Speaker 2: you have to take dogs outside, the fifth friend says, no,

656
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 2: they were there at midnight the night of the death.

657
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 2: It just goes on and on. Did the guys leave

658
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 2: and come back? Were they there the whole time? Were

659
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 2: they dragged outside? The doors were locked, the doors were unlocked.

660
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 2: I mean, those are just some of the inconsistent reports

661
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:49,480
Speaker 2: given by the friend slash homeowner.

662
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 1: That doesn't look good, Barry.

663
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:56,280
Speaker 2: Hutchinson Senior, Because if this is just a horrible accident

664
00:40:56,520 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 2: and the only culprit is fifth andel, then.

665
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,440
Speaker 8: Why why Well, I think that.

666
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 9: This individual that was the homeowner there, I think that

667
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:11,440
Speaker 9: he realizes that the accusatory finger is going to be

668
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 9: pointed to him. I think that he's smart enough to

669
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 9: understand that. I think he's trying to come up with

670
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 9: some kind of, you know, plausible deniability of being involved.

671
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 9: I think that he's trying to make up a story that, hey,

672
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 9: it wasn't me, it wasn't this, it wasn't that. But

673
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 9: there's so much there's so many statements and so many

674
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 9: things that are really starting to point the finger towards him.

675
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:36,280
Speaker 9: It's becoming insurmountable.

676
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 2: And you know, hold on, hold on, I was just

677
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:42,360
Speaker 2: going to go to you, Dell and care and start

678
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 2: del Carson. That's what I love about trying multiple defends

679
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:49,360
Speaker 2: at the same time. They all start doing this at trial,

680
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 2: pointing at each other. You got that fifth friend who

681
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:55,280
Speaker 2: many of speculator. Oh he's the dope dealer.

682
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:55,920
Speaker 1: We don't know that.

683
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:58,439
Speaker 2: I don't know where that came from, but it's out

684
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:01,560
Speaker 2: there and you got him. And then you have the

685
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 2: friends slash homeowner. One of them knows what happened, and

686
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 2: pretty soon, I put it, they're going to start blaming

687
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 2: each other.

688
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 8: Well, of course, but it's in a rural area which

689
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:15,760
Speaker 8: manufacturers of narcotics like to be in the rural areas.

690
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:18,880
Speaker 8: So if it was manufacturing in the house, they're gonna

691
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:19,840
Speaker 8: find the residue.

692
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 2: Are you calling Kansas City, Missouri a rural area.

693
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 8: I'm calling where that house is a rural area.

694
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:27,800
Speaker 1: Is that true, Gray Smith?

695
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:32,240
Speaker 12: I wouldn't call it a rural area. It is probably

696
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 12: twenty five minutes from downtown, but it's still very populated.

697
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:40,239
Speaker 12: It's one of the area is very nice. Truthfully, there's

698
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 12: a huge shopping center just near.

699
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:44,719
Speaker 1: It, so so it's more suburban.

700
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:47,399
Speaker 12: It is out on the outskirts of town, but it's

701
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 12: not I wouldn't call it rule nacy.

702
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 9: That area is what's commonly known to people in the

703
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:57,400
Speaker 9: Kansas City area as the north Land, and it's an

704
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:02,960
Speaker 9: area that's heavily populated with law yards, neighborhoods. You know.

705
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 9: The street that is directly to the backyard of this

706
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 9: of this residence where this occurred is a four lane

707
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 9: highway called Barry Road. It's a very very populated area,

708
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:18,040
Speaker 9: a lot of heavy traffic area right there. So it's

709
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:21,240
Speaker 9: not a rural setting per se. But I do understand

710
00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:23,840
Speaker 9: what he's trying to get to is that, you know,

711
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 9: in the real areas. A lot of that goes on

712
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 9: because it's easily undetected.

713
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:31,879
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I agree with you, Barry Hudg juston

714
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 2: every time we hear about a mobile home blowing up

715
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:36,440
Speaker 2: or a house in the rural area just blowing up,

716
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:37,919
Speaker 2: well they're cooking up some myth.

717
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 1: So deal, Carson, you got that rural part all wrong.

718
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:43,279
Speaker 1: But you want to just step back in punt.

719
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 8: No, no, when they rent housers, this is the homeowner

720
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:50,799
Speaker 8: doesn't own this house. He's not the suspect. He's not

721
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 8: the one who's in rehab.

722
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:54,920
Speaker 2: Del Carson, You're right, we're calling him the home owner,

723
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:56,520
Speaker 2: but he was a home renter.

724
00:43:57,000 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 1: And how does that factor into your analysis.

725
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:02,719
Speaker 8: Well, people who are doing criminal things that are not

726
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 8: likely to do it in their own backyard, meeting their

727
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 8: own home, and so they read these houses. I mean,

728
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 8: we frequently call them trap houses. I don't know whether

729
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 8: this is a trap house because I haven't been out there,

730
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:20,120
Speaker 8: but certainly that's how narcotics are managed, so that the

731
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:24,720
Speaker 8: individual who owns the house typically is non involved, doesn't

732
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:25,799
Speaker 8: know anything about it.

733
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:29,439
Speaker 2: So Karen Starr Psychologists joining us out of Manhattan way

734
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:29,759
Speaker 2: in on.

735
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:32,200
Speaker 11: This well, Nancy. What I was going to talk about

736
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 11: was the fact that the person who was renting, who's

737
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:39,399
Speaker 11: now in rehab, was there for days and was not

738
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 11: answering any calls when these three guys disappeared. I also

739
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:48,239
Speaker 11: want to say something about the condition they were in,

740
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:52,400
Speaker 11: because if they were that high and really starting to

741
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:55,399
Speaker 11: get fit, they're not making sense what they're doing, so

742
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:59,760
Speaker 11: they'd go outside, they wouldn't realize to come back inside

743
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:02,920
Speaker 11: the it was freezing coal. But the whole idea that

744
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:07,719
Speaker 11: he wasn't responding this person who was renting, that he

745
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:11,239
Speaker 11: was ignoring the fact that there were bodies out there,

746
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 11: that he was ignoring the family is so suspicious that

747
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 11: I haven't heard anything like that.

748
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:18,879
Speaker 8: That's just crazy.

749
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:20,360
Speaker 1: Who is the culprit?

750
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 2: And every tragic In every tragedy, there's not always a

751
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:28,879
Speaker 2: criminal charge?

752
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:38,240
Speaker 1: Is there one? Here? We wait as justice unfolds. Goodbye friend,