1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:04,960 Speaker 1: Hey there, SNAFU fans, it's Ed again. I mean, honestly, 2 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:08,320 Speaker 1: who else would it be? Right? This is my podcast? Okay, 3 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:12,080 Speaker 1: I'm excited that today we're sharing another episode from way 4 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: back when. In fact, this was one of the bonus 5 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:18,960 Speaker 1: episodes for the very first season of SNAFU, all about 6 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: Able Archer eighty three, the NATO military exercise that nearly 7 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: started an actual nuclear war. If you missed it back 8 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: then go back and check it out. You're in for 9 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:34,879 Speaker 1: a treat. And in this particular episode, I get to 10 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: talk to a real spy. Yeah, a real freaking spy. 11 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: It was one of the highlights of my career to 12 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: have this conversation. So here it is my special episode 13 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 1: talking to Jack Barski, former KGB spy. We get into 14 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:56,640 Speaker 1: all the Soviet era paranoia and KGB chaos during the 15 00:00:56,640 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: Cold War from someone who saw all of it right 16 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 1: from the inside. This guy is quite a character. We 17 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 1: had an incredible chat. You're not gonna want to miss 18 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: this one. Also, just be aware next week we'll be 19 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 1: back as usual. All right, enjoy. Hey SNAFU listeners, this 20 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:19,120 Speaker 1: is your host ed helms back in your feed for 21 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:24,399 Speaker 1: another bonus episode. This one is really really cool. If 22 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 1: you told me a year ago that I would be 23 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 1: having a conversation with a former KGB agent, I would 24 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 1: just tell you that you're cuckoo bananas, But it actually 25 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: happened now. Over the course of our show, we got 26 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:40,119 Speaker 1: a healthy dose of espionage intrigue through our friends Oleg 27 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:43,639 Speaker 1: Gordievski and Rhiner Rupp, the two spies at the center 28 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: of the Able Archer story. But the KGB had a 29 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: whole network of operatives all over the world, each one 30 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: on their own separate mission. One of those spies was 31 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: a man named Jack Barski, who infiltrated the US in 32 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy eight, then eventually defected from Russia and became 33 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: a US citizen. Just like our pals Oleg and Ryner, 34 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: Jack's story is full of danger, intrigue, and incredible twists 35 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 1: and turns. I had a chance to sit down with 36 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: Jack recently, and it was a really exciting conversation. He 37 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 1: was completely transparent and forthcoming. Literally nothing was off the table, 38 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 1: and he provided some amazing fresh insight into the Soviets 39 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:25,399 Speaker 1: Cold War mindset, and we even had a few chuckles. 40 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 1: I really enjoyed this interview. I got a ton out 41 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:38,119 Speaker 1: of it, and I think you will too. Hello, Jack Barski, 42 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: it is a pleasure to meet you. You have an 43 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 1: incredible story. KGB spy here in the United States for 44 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 1: about a decade. So let's just dive right in to 45 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: your origin story. Tell me about growing up. Where exactly 46 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: did you grow up? 47 00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 2: Well, I was born was in the Soviet occupied part 48 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 2: of Germany, very very poor, very rural. I was taken 49 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 2: care of fundamentally. We had enough food, maybe fifty percent 50 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:13,920 Speaker 2: was potato based, But I can't remember ever having been hungry. 51 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:17,079 Speaker 2: And I didn't know that I was poor because everybody 52 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 2: else was poor. Sure, so you got at Christmas time, 53 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 2: you got a bunch of presents and there was only 54 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:25,359 Speaker 2: one that you really wanted. The rest of its was 55 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 2: underwear and socks. 56 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 1: Wait a minute, Christmas time? Oh yeah, how did you 57 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 1: have Christmas? There's no you didn't but no one believed 58 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 1: in God. 59 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 2: No. But but you see, Christmas also has a pagan tradition, sure, 60 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 2: and in the communist countries, that was the tradition that 61 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 2: was kept. I honestly had no idea that the rest 62 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 2: of the world was celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ. 63 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 2: I had no idea Jesus even existed. 64 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 1: That's yeah, that's pretty extreme. Oh yeah, so you didn't 65 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 1: get a lot of in your education growing up. You 66 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: weren't learning about other ideas. 67 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 2: They were teaching us the wisdom, and there was only 68 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 2: one truth. There was science and math, and then there 69 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:18,719 Speaker 2: was ideology, and the ideology was treated as if it 70 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 2: was a science. Marxism Leninism was considered a science equal 71 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 2: to physics and chemistry and so forth. 72 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 1: Wow, that is fascinating. 73 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 2: If you grow into that kind of an environment, what 74 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:33,600 Speaker 2: are you going to do? You don't know anything else, 75 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 2: there's no other opinions. The only thing that went across 76 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:43,279 Speaker 2: borders was a shortwave radio. But we didn't listen to 77 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 2: shortwave talk. We listened to rock and roll. 78 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: Very cool. Do you remember any bands you were listening 79 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: to at that time? 80 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:54,559 Speaker 2: Initially it was a couple of singers Americans who sang 81 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 2: in German, Gus Bacchus and Bill Ramsey. Huh big all, 82 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 2: how was it? Fundament and pulis? That was That was 83 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 2: Bill ramsay. But one day I heard a band called 84 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:11,600 Speaker 2: the Beatles. 85 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, they'll change your life, the Beatles. 86 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 2: And it doesn't matter how communists we were, so to speak, 87 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 2: we all loved that music. 88 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:27,159 Speaker 1: Oh wow, this is this is fascinating. I wanted to 89 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:31,160 Speaker 1: talk about the pop culture that you were absorbing, not 90 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:34,839 Speaker 1: just Western things, but things coming out of the Soviet 91 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 1: Union and East Germany, particularly movies. You know, the spy 92 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: stories have always been such a rich part of cinematic storytelling, 93 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: and so what were you seeing at the time and 94 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:51,359 Speaker 1: did you have a perception of, like, of the spy life. 95 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 2: Fundamentally there was this dichotomy. So we were listening primarily 96 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 2: to music that came out of the West West Germany, 97 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 2: in England, in the United States, but the communist art 98 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 2: wasn't so bad. There were like some really good movies. 99 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 2: There were inspirational stories, particularly when it came to espionage. 100 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 2: There was a series that was called The Invisible a Visor. 101 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 2: It was about an East German who penetrated West Germany 102 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 2: to find Nazis after World War Two and make sure 103 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 2: that these Nazis would meet the faith that they deserved. 104 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:38,479 Speaker 2: And eventually he rose up in West German government and 105 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 2: did a lot of interesting things. He was all over 106 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:44,599 Speaker 2: the world, you know, he was driving fast cars. He 107 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:49,840 Speaker 2: was our James Bond and he got the woman, and 108 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 2: this is what I thought with what espionage would be like. 109 00:06:56,080 --> 00:07:04,160 Speaker 2: Obviously it was highly ideological against the bad capitalists, but 110 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:07,279 Speaker 2: it nevertheless was well done artistically speaking. 111 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think that there's a great appreciation creatively 112 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: and artistically for so much of what was coming out 113 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 1: of the Soviet Union at that time. So let's transition 114 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: from some of these cultural considerations into you specifically. You're 115 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: sort of working your way through school. At what point 116 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: does you know, an actual spy life start to coalesce 117 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: for you? 118 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, that took a while. So elementary school, I was 119 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 2: just playing along, you know, I didn't care much. And 120 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 2: in high school I was still playing around, you know, 121 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 2: but I became a little more ambitious and I managed 122 00:07:56,200 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 2: to have nothing but a's on my report card, and 123 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 2: so that that allowed me to pretty much have my 124 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:09,119 Speaker 2: pick what university to go to, Ace University as well. 125 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 2: But he's a big butt. It's not because I was 126 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 2: the smartest guy. Because I was clever. There were a 127 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 2: couple of guys at least that were smarter than me, 128 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 2: but they didn't know how to manipulate this. 129 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 1: Huh Yeah, okay, interesting, So you're kind of it's not 130 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 1: just your intellect. It's sort of your your savvy. 131 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 2: Exactly, sort of street smarts. At one point in my 132 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 2: third year, there was a national scholarship and I suggested 133 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 2: that I be submitted, and the fellow who wrote the application, 134 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 2: he showed it to me. I said that that's not 135 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 2: going to work. I rewrote, I wrote my own application, 136 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 2: and I was awarded that scholarship, and that I believe 137 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 2: got the KGB to pay attention to me. 138 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 1: That's it, that's what. That was the sort of opening 139 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:00,559 Speaker 1: volley that put you on the kg's radar. 140 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 2: I believe so because you couldn't, like, if you want 141 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 2: to work for the CIA, you could just like, you know, sure, 142 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 2: contact them and. 143 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:10,559 Speaker 1: Go online fill out an application. 144 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 2: There was no such thing. Uh, you could not contact 145 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 2: the KGB. They came to me. 146 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 1: So you're you're clearly a sort of a desirable candidate. 147 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 1: Oh and and and you think that's what actually put 148 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:28,079 Speaker 1: you on the KGB's radar. What was your first point 149 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: of contact? 150 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 2: So it was on a Saturday afternoon. I was sitting 151 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 2: in my dorm room and I get a knock on 152 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 2: the door. So in comes of a short man who 153 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 2: was not likable even even just looking at him. 154 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 1: It was not James Bond. 155 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 2: No, he was German. And and uh he said, hey 156 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 2: are you? I said, yes, I am. Oh, I just 157 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 2: want to talk with you about your plans after you graduate. 158 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 2: Was the dumbest cover story that I've ever heard in 159 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 2: my entire life, because in those days when you when 160 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:11,080 Speaker 2: you were done, you were assigned. 161 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 1: Oh you didn't get to just kind of pontificate about what. 162 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 2: You No, no, no, no. 163 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:19,679 Speaker 1: That's how this guy started the conversation. Yeah, so you 164 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:22,959 Speaker 1: knew right away this guy doesn't know what's up. 165 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 2: Yes, he pretended to be an employee of the biggest 166 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 2: company in town. But I thought he was German. I 167 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:35,079 Speaker 2: thought he was East German secret police Stazi. 168 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:39,079 Speaker 1: Okay, but aren't you nervous anyway? No, no, no, no, 169 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:42,200 Speaker 1: I mean I would think I would think of STAZZI 170 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:45,239 Speaker 1: knocking on your door might rattle anybody. 171 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 2: I have always been fearless. 172 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: Interesting, Okay, so that is a difference. That's a difference 173 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: between you and me. I clearly have a more fearful 174 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: constitution and you you you're fearless. 175 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, fearless. Well, I'm afraid of my wife, but generally, generally, 176 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 2: I have always done risky things that other people wouldn't do. 177 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 2: So this guy, you know, was lying to me and 178 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 2: we were talking a little bit for a while, and 179 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 2: then after about ten fifteen minutes, he changed his tune. 180 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 2: He says, you know what I got. I gotta confess 181 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 2: I'm not really from that company. I'm from the government, 182 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:34,840 Speaker 2: he said, the government, Like I know. Yeah, I in 183 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 2: my mind I was thinking maybe I should ask him 184 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 2: what part of the government, but I didn't, so I said, yeah, okay, 185 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 2: And he said, can you imagine one day working for 186 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 2: the government. 187 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 1: He didn't ask you to join the KGB, right, Oh no, no, no, 188 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:50,079 Speaker 1: he's still fussing you out. 189 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 2: Yes. And the next meeting was in a restaurant, the 190 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 2: most expensive restaurant in town. And he said, well, we're 191 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 2: going to meet there. And when I get to the table, well, 192 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 2: there was another fella sitting there, and this guy, who 193 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 2: never introduced himself, said, by the way, this is herman. 194 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 2: We're working with our Soviet comrades. 195 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: Wow, this is exciting, right, yeah, curious. Oh yeah, you're 196 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 1: in college and the KGB is is taking you to 197 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:19,239 Speaker 1: a fancy restaurant. 198 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 2: Oh. The KGB was known to us as the most 199 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 2: powerful organization on the planet. You know, there there was 200 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 2: a KGB mythology. 201 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:33,839 Speaker 1: And philosophically right now you're where where are you? With 202 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:35,319 Speaker 1: regards to the Communist Party. 203 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 2: I was a member of the party. I was very 204 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 2: active in the the youth organization at university. 205 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 1: And was this because it was just convenient to do 206 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 1: that or were you a true believer? 207 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:48,559 Speaker 2: I was a true believer, true believer. 208 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:52,559 Speaker 1: Absolutely, So that makes the KGB super. 209 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:56,319 Speaker 2: Oh my god, yes, wow, absolutely, yeah. 210 00:12:55,840 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 1: And uh okay, So you meet with herman. Herman says, uh, 211 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: let's let's let's meet again. Oh okay, okay. So it's 212 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 1: just lots of meetings. 213 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 2: It was a very slow ramp up. Initially I would 214 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 2: meet with him in his car sort of at the 215 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 2: edge of town. After some maybe three four months, he 216 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 2: must have determined that I was a really good candidate. 217 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: Wow. Was there anything in your recruitment that made you 218 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:33,680 Speaker 1: think they want me to be capable of extreme violence 219 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:38,679 Speaker 1: or you know that spying involved, you know, like scary altercations, 220 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 1: weaponry and close quarters combat and all that sort of No, nothing. 221 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 2: No, no, no. All the people that I worked with 222 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 2: both in East Germany and then during my time in 223 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 2: Moscow were gentlemen. Our weapons were supposed to be our brains. 224 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 1: Mmmm. So let's talk about the train. What specific skills 225 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 1: are you learning? What kinds of devices? Tradecraft is entering 226 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 1: the picture here, you'd be surprised. 227 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:12,439 Speaker 2: The very first document they gave me to read was 228 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 2: a book about the history of the Communist Party of 229 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 2: the Soviet Union. 230 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 1: Okay, just moredoctrination. 231 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 2: Oh you bad. But with regard to tradecraft, we're starting 232 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 2: out with a shortwave radio reception Morse code. And then 233 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 2: I was taught how to produce secret writing. That is 234 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 2: a skill. It isn't just something you just do. The 235 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 2: KGB produced pieces of paper that were impregnant and pregnated 236 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 2: with just a trace of a chemical. The way to 237 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 2: do this right, I had to be really, really careful. 238 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 2: I had to make sure that everything was totally clean. 239 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 2: If you didn't know what you were looking for, what 240 00:14:57,280 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 2: chemical you were looking for, you wouldn't find anything. 241 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 1: Wow, that's cool. So you're getting some of these these skills. 242 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 1: Was it surveillance detection or something? 243 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 2: Yes, servans detection route. This is actually an internationally recognized 244 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 2: abbreviation to the FBI uses the same way. So this 245 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 2: is what you do. Counterintelligence need to follow you when 246 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 2: you're out and about, and so the idea was that 247 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 2: you have to have a fictitious reason to go their 248 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 2: and their department stores, going to a movie and buying 249 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 2: a ticket, and the whole idea. If counterintelligence follows you, 250 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 2: they know that you're doing what you're doing. However, there's 251 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 2: no proof. If you see the same phase twice within 252 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 2: three hours, you know that you're being followed. I had 253 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 2: really an extensive training in Moscow where we practice is 254 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 2: about a dozen times and sometimes I had nobody following 255 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 2: me and sometimes I had a whole team following me. 256 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 2: And it was a competition and. 257 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 1: The test was to figure out who was following you. 258 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 2: Yes, I won every time. 259 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 1: Oh nice, So you've you've got You've got some serious skills. 260 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 1: Now you're you're getting training in Moscow. Let's move on 261 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 1: to your placement. So you were born Albrecht Dietrich in 262 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 1: East Germany. But to get to the United States you 263 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: needed an American identity. How did all that go down? 264 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 2: Well, first of all, we had to have some documentation 265 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 2: that allowed me to live in the United States. Right, 266 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 2: there was only one paper that was important. It was 267 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:04,440 Speaker 2: the birth certificate of Jack Barski, a child who passed 268 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:09,400 Speaker 2: away at the age of eleven. This is what this 269 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 2: is what the KGB used to steal identities, and this 270 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 2: is what's still being used if possible. 271 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 1: Wow, Jack Barski was a real There was like a 272 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 1: birth record then and a birth certificate. 273 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 2: Yes, one of those diplomats and who worked in Washington, 274 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 2: d c. Is he was wondering around the cemeteries and 275 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 2: he found the yeahobs on right, and it says Jack 276 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:40,120 Speaker 2: Barski born nineteen forty four, passed away in nineteen fifty five. 277 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,160 Speaker 1: And you want a child, because then there's they don't 278 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 1: have a life of records in all of the evidence 279 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 1: of that. 280 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:48,479 Speaker 2: That's correct. 281 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:50,159 Speaker 1: Wow, that's kind of dark. 282 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:54,160 Speaker 2: And in those days, In those days, it was really 283 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 2: easy to get a birth certificate. You didn't have to 284 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 2: show why you weren't title to get it. All you 285 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 2: had to do is that, you know, fill out a 286 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 2: form and then pay the fee. 287 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 1: So active agents kind of procured your papers, that's correct, 288 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 1: and then you and then you had that to travel with. Right, 289 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:19,919 Speaker 1: So how did they decide? Did they have a conversation 290 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: with you? What do you want to do? Where do 291 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:22,200 Speaker 1: you want to go. 292 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 2: No, you know this was there was never a really 293 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:32,679 Speaker 2: well constructed plan. It was more of an idea. You know, 294 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 2: you just go and then you do good things. 295 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:42,200 Speaker 1: Ah. So basically the assignment is just go and be curious. 296 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 2: Go and find your way up in society. There was 297 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 2: a master plan that if that had succeeded, I would 298 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 2: have become a really, really dangerous agent. The plan was 299 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 2: for me to get all the documentation that you need 300 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 2: to operate in the United States work there, including a passport, 301 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:06,159 Speaker 2: and with that passport, they were going to send me 302 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:11,120 Speaker 2: back to a European country that speaks German, like Austria 303 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:15,879 Speaker 2: or Switzerland, and then they would have had me open 304 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 2: some kind of a company to establish a company, and 305 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 2: they would funnel a lot of money into that company. 306 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,119 Speaker 2: So within two years I would go back to the 307 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 2: United States a millionaire. 308 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 1: Oh that's nice. Oh what happened to This is a 309 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:33,120 Speaker 1: great plan and you get to be a millionaire. Yeah, 310 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:35,880 Speaker 1: that's a hell of a plan. 311 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 2: Yeah I failed. I was able to when I get 312 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:41,399 Speaker 2: got to the United States with that birth certificate, I 313 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 2: was able to get a Social Security card, I was 314 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 2: able to get a driver's license, so I was functional 315 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 2: in the United States, but the journey was really well planned, 316 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:55,399 Speaker 2: except for the very last leg of the trip. The 317 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 2: way I traveled, it was impossible to trace me back 318 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 2: to Moscow. So from Moscow I took a plane. I 319 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 2: went to Belgrade. From Belgrade, I took a train to Vienna, 320 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 2: neutral country. In Vienna, I changed passports. I met a 321 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 2: KGB agent diplomat who gave me a second Forge passport, 322 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 2: and I gave him back the first one that I used. 323 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:27,400 Speaker 2: From Vienna, I traveled by train to Rome. Now we're 324 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:31,920 Speaker 2: in NATO territory, right, but I'm already like twice removed. 325 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 2: And there I got a Canadian. 326 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:38,920 Speaker 1: Passport, okay, and that gets you into in where where 327 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 1: where do you go? From there? 328 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 2: From Rome, I went to Mexico City, and Mexico City, 329 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:49,880 Speaker 2: I bought a ticket to my hometown to fly back 330 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:54,680 Speaker 2: to Toronto, with a stopover in Chicago. So they had 331 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 2: me a deep plane at O'Hare. And that's when the 332 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 2: trouble started. I mean, I should I should have been 333 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:07,400 Speaker 2: busted right then and there because KGB had nobody There 334 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 2: were no Soviet citizens in Chicago. Nobody knew about Chicago anything. 335 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 1: Wow, Okay, So when you first stepped off that plane 336 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 1: at Chicago O'Hare and you're sitting, you're suddenly you're walking 337 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 1: on American soil. Is that that must have been an 338 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 1: incredible rush? 339 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:29,879 Speaker 2: Yes, particularly once I got through customs and immigration. Yes. Yeah. 340 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 2: But but before that it was like anxiety. Yeah, a 341 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:35,160 Speaker 2: lot of it. 342 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 1: Okay, I would imagine, I mean I would be crippled 343 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:40,920 Speaker 1: with fear at this point, but you, being fearless, get 344 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:53,719 Speaker 1: through it. Okay. So you get to New York City eventually, 345 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: I'm so curious. You know, we talked a little bit 346 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 1: about your assignment, but like, what the hell are you 347 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 1: doing day to day? 348 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:04,920 Speaker 2: I had some tasks. There were a couple of times 349 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 2: where they actually asked me to do something really important. 350 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:12,399 Speaker 2: One of them was to find an ex KGB agent 351 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:17,639 Speaker 2: who was actually an assassin who had defected and it 352 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 2: was under a death sentence and they wanted me to 353 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 2: find out where he is. 354 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:22,880 Speaker 1: Did you find him? 355 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:23,880 Speaker 2: Yes? I did? 356 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 1: WHOA And did they send someone after him? 357 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,719 Speaker 2: They didn't, thank god. It's another one of those movie scenes. 358 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 2: I went to San Bernardino and they told me, see 359 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:38,120 Speaker 2: if he's still teaching at the University of California. 360 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:42,120 Speaker 1: Assassin had gotten a job as a college professor. 361 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:43,920 Speaker 2: Yes, well, yeah, he defected. 362 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:46,680 Speaker 1: You know, still that's a pretty different skill set. 363 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 2: Well, you know, an assassin has to be really smart 364 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:55,160 Speaker 2: to get away with what they're doing, right, So yeah, 365 00:22:54,480 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 2: So I'm walking up and down the hallways of University 366 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 2: of California, Bernardino. The last door on the left, there's 367 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 2: a nameplate that says Nikolai Kocklof. That's the guy I 368 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 2: was looking for. And as I'm looking at this, at 369 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 2: this nameplate, the door opens and he comes out. This 370 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:22,359 Speaker 2: is this like delicious situation where an ex KGB agent 371 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:26,200 Speaker 2: who is under a death sentence is looking at a 372 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:30,680 Speaker 2: KGB agent who's trying to find him. Neither I nor 373 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,440 Speaker 2: he knew who we were. I found out much later 374 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 2: he died from natural causes. 375 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 1: Yeah right, yeah right. 376 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 2: I was also asked to operate as a spotter. You know, 377 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:49,959 Speaker 2: when the KGB had a methodology how to recruit people. First, 378 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 2: you got a spotterer who looks, who looks for talent. 379 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,639 Speaker 1: So are you looking for people to flip Americans who 380 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,679 Speaker 1: might work for the KGB? Okay, yes, So at the 381 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 1: time the Soviet Union has this kind of research process 382 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:09,159 Speaker 1: called Operation Ryan just for the listener. Operation Ryan was 383 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 1: this kind of insane thing where spies all over the 384 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 1: world were asked to just give the Soviet Union confirmation 385 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: that America was going to start a nuclear war. 386 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:28,680 Speaker 2: Basically, you are the first and only interviewer who knows 387 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:32,440 Speaker 2: exactly what that was. I didn't know at the time. 388 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 2: I wasn't told there was an operation, but I was 389 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 2: told to keep it periodically. Take a look at the 390 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,400 Speaker 2: Navy weapons station at the shore of New Jersey. 391 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: To just go look at it, or what. 392 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 2: Look at see if I if I see, if I 393 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 2: see signs of preparation for war. Yes, I was also 394 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:59,639 Speaker 2: trained to recognize, based on a silhouette, what kind of 395 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 2: ships are out there? 396 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:01,639 Speaker 1: Oh wow? 397 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 2: And I had no idea I was part of that program. 398 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 1: But you're reporting back on sort of what you're seeing 399 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 1: as possible as possible war preparations. 400 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,880 Speaker 2: I never saw anything out of the ordinary, and in fact, 401 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:20,639 Speaker 2: there was no preparation for war. But you know, the 402 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 2: fellow who was in charge of the KGB at that time, 403 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 2: Andropov was absolutely certain that Ronald Reagan will push the button. 404 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:36,119 Speaker 1: Okay, that's fascinating because there's controversy over whether and drop 405 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 1: Off actually believed Reagan wanted to start a nuclear war, 406 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:45,879 Speaker 1: or if they just wanted us to think they believed that. 407 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:52,160 Speaker 2: No, I believe my interaction with my handless in Moscow 408 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 2: indicated to me that they they were really afraid of 409 00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 2: Ronald Reagan. And there was some some element of cultural 410 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:09,680 Speaker 2: misunderstanding because Reagan was a believing Christian and he sometimes 411 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,480 Speaker 2: quoted the Bible, particularly the Book of Revelation. 412 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 1: The scariest book of the Bible. 413 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 2: Right, So in a communist country, nobody had any kind 414 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 2: of idea, particularly the ones and the decision makers. They 415 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,399 Speaker 2: didn't have context as to what when you quote the Bible, 416 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 2: what that means. And clearly Ronald Reagan was not He 417 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 2: didn't think he was appointed to accelerate the end of 418 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,560 Speaker 2: the world. But you know, Andropov in you know, the 419 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 2: Central Committee of the party, they were really afraid of 420 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 2: this man. 421 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,200 Speaker 1: They believed that Reagan wanted to end the world. 422 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 2: Is that what you're saying, You wanted to start a 423 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,480 Speaker 2: war and the war would have been the end of 424 00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 2: the world, Yes, well. 425 00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:59,879 Speaker 1: Of course, yeah, yeah, of course it would have been armageddon. 426 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 1: But how do you know that what signals were you 427 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 1: getting that? And drop Off really thought Reagan wanted to 428 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:10,680 Speaker 1: start a war. 429 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 2: Obviously. I never never had a conversation with undrop of 430 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 2: but I had conversation with people that were in his 431 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 2: organization and they were all like, definitely afraid of Ronald Reagan. 432 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:27,879 Speaker 1: Wow. Wow, that is fascinating. And are you aware of 433 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 1: the able Archer eighty three military exercise that was happening 434 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 1: right I. 435 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 2: Wasn't aware of it when it happened, but I know 436 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 2: what you're talking about. During the Cold War became close 437 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 2: three four times to a nuclear exchange, and every time 438 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 2: it was based on a misunderstanding. And that is what 439 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 2: I'm worried about right now with Russia being on edge 440 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 2: and you know, the mistakes can be made, and you know, 441 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,680 Speaker 2: you have one mistaken launch, it's over. 442 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,399 Speaker 1: So I want to back up a little bit. You 443 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,199 Speaker 1: had a few specific tasks, but you also had this 444 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:30,679 Speaker 1: kind of grand, larger mission that was really up to you. 445 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 1: It sounds like, how were you communicating with Moscow while 446 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 1: you're in the United States? What were sort of your 447 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 1: what were some of those tricks as a lone wolf. 448 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, So if if you ever watched the Americans. There 449 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 2: are a lot of scenes where the handler of the 450 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 2: two illegals is meeting with them. That never happened. There 451 00:28:56,000 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 2: was a hard rule that you do not meet an illegal, 452 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 2: will not meet with another agent in the country where 453 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 2: he operates. So so communication was it wasn't directed, it 454 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 2: was indirect. They sent me the stuff whatever they wanted 455 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 2: to communicate in Morse code once a week. By the way, 456 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 2: that's still being used, and it's it's significantly better than 457 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 2: using social media or the internet, because when you send 458 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 2: signals out into the ether, you know, people know where 459 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 2: it came from, but people don't know who's actually listening. 460 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 1: To it, right, And then to communicate back to Russia, 461 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 1: what are you. 462 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 2: Doing secret writing? I had what they call convenience addresses. 463 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 2: These were collaborators with a KGB in other countries. So 464 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 2: I would write a letter as if I knew about them, 465 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 2: I knew anything, so that I'm sorry, you know, you 466 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 2: broke your let or some like like opent texture, and 467 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 2: then I overlaid this with some secret writing and then 468 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 2: I would mail this thing and then it would they 469 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 2: would know that this had to be handed over to 470 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 2: the KGB agent. 471 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: That's wild Okay, So at some point during this process 472 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 1: you decide you don't want to be a KGB agent anymore. 473 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 1: What happened? Where was the ideological shift, because now you're 474 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 1: an American and you seem to like America a lot. 475 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it was a what I call a slow decontamination. 476 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 2: The first thing that I realized was that capitalism isn't 477 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 2: really as oppressive to the workers as I thought, because 478 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 2: when I started working for MetLife as a programmer, it 479 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 2: was a nice place and they treated us well, we 480 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 2: got free lunch. Other than like you know, bad bosses 481 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 2: and and and not very nice coworkers. I couldn't find, Uh, 482 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 2: institutional evil wasn't there. But when when I resigned from 483 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 2: the KGB, I put in my letter explicitly, I will 484 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 2: not betray the cause. I will not betray my mother 485 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 2: and East Germany. And I meant that, and you know, 486 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 2: and then I had a career. I developed my version 487 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 2: of the American dream. It wasn't ideological, but it was like, 488 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 2: you know, I liked it here, you know, and I 489 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 2: became what they wanted me to become a real American. 490 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:45,000 Speaker 2: You know, I led a normal life. At one point, 491 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 2: I became a professional. I worked as a computer programmer. 492 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 2: And you know, if you're a young man, you have 493 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 2: some you know, your hormones are still. 494 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 1: There, right, your job is inherently lonely as hell. 495 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 2: Yes, So I started dating and I found a really 496 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:12,719 Speaker 2: pretty young woman who was safe because he had emigrated 497 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:16,040 Speaker 2: from South America. If I had gotten close to and 498 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 2: born American and they would have figured out something odd 499 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 2: about this guy, he wouldn't have known. Turns out that 500 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 2: he had emigrated, but she was actually illegal. So I 501 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 2: helped her to become legal. 502 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:32,840 Speaker 1: Oh you know you married her? 503 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:38,360 Speaker 2: I married her. And so in nineteen eighty seven my 504 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:43,040 Speaker 2: daughter was born. And you know this is I don't 505 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 2: know you have you have any any girls? 506 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 1: I do have two girls. 507 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 2: Okay, don't you love him? Didn't you love him like crazy? 508 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 2: When they grew up? 509 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 1: Well, they're still quite little, and I will say, oh, 510 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 1: it is a form of love that I never even 511 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:03,720 Speaker 1: contemplated before, exactly so deep, it is so profound, And that. 512 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,720 Speaker 2: Is exactly what happened to me. I mean, this girl 513 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:11,719 Speaker 2: was and still is extremely pretty, huge eyes, and I 514 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 2: mean just like just beautiful. And when she was eighteen 515 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:22,000 Speaker 2: months old, the KGB said sent me an urgent message 516 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 2: that I should return to the Soviet Union because I 517 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 2: was about to be arrested by the FBI. It was 518 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,200 Speaker 2: a red herring. It wasn't true, but they believed it, 519 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 2: and obviously I should have believed it too, right. 520 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 1: And you couldn't bring the child back to rust now 521 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 1: with you? 522 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,480 Speaker 2: Oh no, no, no, no no. I kept the fact that 523 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 2: I married this woman. Oh and I didn't tell. 524 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 1: You were keeping secrets from the kg Oh. Wow, of 525 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 1: course this is you really are fearless. Your love for 526 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:56,000 Speaker 1: your daughter is what kept you in the United States. 527 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 1: And explain to me why you don't just say I'll 528 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 1: just keep being a spy in the United States. You 529 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:04,800 Speaker 1: actually want to leave the KGB at this point. 530 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:09,719 Speaker 2: Well, well, they thought I was about to be arrested, 531 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:11,799 Speaker 2: so they wanted me back in the Soviet Union, and 532 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 2: that that forced my hand, okay, because I had to 533 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 2: tell him that I'm not coming, right, so they wouldn't 534 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:26,040 Speaker 2: search for me. And so my last letter in secret 535 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:31,879 Speaker 2: writing stated the following, thank you for pointing that out. 536 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 2: I'm going to be careful, but I can't come because 537 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:41,799 Speaker 2: I have HIV AIDS. Whoa you, But you didn't of 538 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 2: course I didn't. 539 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 1: And so once the case, once, once the KGB finds 540 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,319 Speaker 1: out that you have AIDS or that you've said you 541 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:50,439 Speaker 1: have AIDS, they're terrified. They don't want you back. 542 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:51,520 Speaker 2: Oh no, no way. 543 00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 1: And okay, so now you're off the hook with the KGB. 544 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:56,759 Speaker 1: But I did. 545 00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 2: I didn't know this. I was hoping for it. But 546 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 2: I actually one hundred percent because they went to my 547 00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,200 Speaker 2: German family and told them that I that I already died. 548 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:08,759 Speaker 1: Wow, So then they just forget about you? 549 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 2: They did, absolutely did. I spent about three months after 550 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:17,120 Speaker 2: I mailed that letter at being very cautious, careful looking 551 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:21,359 Speaker 2: for FBI surveillance, looking for KGB. I was so well 552 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:25,920 Speaker 2: trained I knew that there was nothing happening. So I 553 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 2: told the mother of this child, I said, okay, you 554 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:32,840 Speaker 2: know what, we should start looking at moving into the 555 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 2: suburbs and buying a house. That's when I that was 556 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:53,680 Speaker 2: my first step to become an American. Wow. 557 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 1: All right, So a million questions, but the big one 558 00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 1: is you left the KGB. Eventually you actually became an 559 00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:07,480 Speaker 1: American citizen. The FBI got in touch with you, and 560 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:11,799 Speaker 1: you became, you know, an open book to them. They 561 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:17,560 Speaker 1: then offer you citizenship. And here's my question. Once you 562 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:22,080 Speaker 1: became public, why isn't the KGB trying to kill you? Now? 563 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:26,720 Speaker 2: Well, first of all, my case is really old. 564 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,480 Speaker 1: But you're still a liability. I mean, you're you're telling 565 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,839 Speaker 1: these stories all about kind of Russian trade craft and 566 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:36,960 Speaker 1: all these things, and might add sometimes it seems that 567 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:42,319 Speaker 1: Russian assassinations aren't just about keeping someone quiet. There's an 568 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,600 Speaker 1: element of vengeance there. Yes, why are you safe? 569 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 2: If they had a list of you know, priorities, I'm 570 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:50,880 Speaker 2: near the bottom, got it? 571 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:55,840 Speaker 1: Okay, next question. It has been said that there is 572 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:59,520 Speaker 1: no such thing as a former KGB agent. You are 573 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:03,080 Speaker 1: now living your life very publicly and openly and transparently. 574 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:07,520 Speaker 1: But who's to say you're not still sending secret messages 575 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 1: back to Russia. And I say it with a laugh, 576 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:11,440 Speaker 1: but it's a serious question. 577 00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:15,439 Speaker 2: Yeah. No, you got to trust me. Oh is that right? 578 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:16,560 Speaker 1: I just have to trust you? 579 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:20,279 Speaker 2: Okay? All right, So here's the thing. When I was 580 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 2: debriefed by the FBI, you know, and I dumped everything 581 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:27,600 Speaker 2: that I could possibly remember on them. The last thing 582 00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:29,880 Speaker 2: they had me do is I had to pass a 583 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,160 Speaker 2: light detective test. I passed that test and then I 584 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:35,439 Speaker 2: spent I don't know how many years, but to seven 585 00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 2: eight years as a trusted source, I flipped completely. I'm 586 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:43,120 Speaker 2: as anti communist as you can get. 587 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:50,560 Speaker 1: What is Jack Barski's philosophy at this point? What have 588 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:52,440 Speaker 1: you learned from everything you've been through? 589 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 2: That question was asked of me several years ago, and 590 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,640 Speaker 2: I wasn't prepared. I had to think about it, but 591 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,840 Speaker 2: I came up with the best answer. It sounds a 592 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:11,960 Speaker 2: little bit hokey, but it's true. And this is what 593 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:16,640 Speaker 2: I'm telling you. Love conquers all. That's it. 594 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:21,480 Speaker 1: That's it. Yeah, you know what, it does sound hokey, 595 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,440 Speaker 1: but it isn't It is very profound. 596 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 2: It's true. It's true. I lived it okay because I 597 00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:34,200 Speaker 2: if I had not been in love with this little girl, 598 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:38,439 Speaker 2: I would have made the beeline to Moscow and East 599 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,400 Speaker 2: Germany and lived the good life, because at the time 600 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 2: I had nothing but good things back there, and the 601 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:47,960 Speaker 2: love kept me here. 602 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,799 Speaker 1: Well, I think that's a great place to wrap it up. 603 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:56,600 Speaker 1: And I cannot thank you enough for your generosity with 604 00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:00,239 Speaker 1: your time and your wife and your story and hearing 605 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:03,880 Speaker 1: all of it. Jack Barski, I really really appreciate it. 606 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:04,600 Speaker 1: Thanks so much. 607 00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:08,160 Speaker 2: You're welcome, take care byebye. 608 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:13,719 Speaker 1: Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed that 609 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:15,840 Speaker 1: interview as much as I did. If you want to 610 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:19,400 Speaker 1: learn more about Jack's amazing life and his crazy story, 611 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:23,640 Speaker 1: check out his book Deep Undercover My Life Entangled Allegiances 612 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:27,880 Speaker 1: as a KGB Spy in America. There's also a really 613 00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,920 Speaker 1: cool podcast all about his life called The Agent. Definitely 614 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:35,840 Speaker 1: check that out. All right, This is your host Ed 615 00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:41,520 Speaker 1: Helms signing off. Snapoo is a production of iHeartRadio, Film 616 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:45,360 Speaker 1: Nation Entertainment, and Pacific Electric Picture Company in association with 617 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:50,200 Speaker 1: Gilded Audio. It's executive produced by me Ed Helms, Milan Pippelka, 618 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:55,040 Speaker 1: Mike Falbo, Andy Chug and Whitney Donaldson. This bonus episode 619 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:58,720 Speaker 1: was produced and edited by Olivia Canny. Our lead producers 620 00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:02,520 Speaker 1: are Sarah Joyner and Alyssa Martino. Our producer is Carl Nellis, 621 00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:06,120 Speaker 1: Associate producer Tory Smith. Our senior editor is Jeffrey Lewis. 622 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,880 Speaker 1: Olivia Canny is our production assistant. Our creative executive is 623 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:14,600 Speaker 1: Brett Harris. Engineering and technical direction by Nick Dooley. Special 624 00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:16,839 Speaker 1: thanks to Alison Cohen and Matt Aisenstad.