WEBVTT - Disappearing Species 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:23.996 Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 0:00:24.076 --> 0:00:27.036 where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 0:00:27.436 --> 0:00:33.716 I'm Noah Feldman. This May, the United Nations released a 0:00:33.796 --> 0:00:37.796 report based on thousands of scientific studies, saying that a 0:00:37.916 --> 0:00:42.156 million species are at risk of extinction. It said that 0:00:42.236 --> 0:00:45.996 humans were altering the natural world at a quote unprecedented pace. 0:00:46.956 --> 0:00:49.476 This is something that Elizabeth Culbert has been reporting on 0:00:49.556 --> 0:00:52.196 for years. She's a staff writer at The New Yorker 0:00:52.476 --> 0:00:55.236 and the author of the twenty fifteen Pulitzer Prize winning 0:00:55.236 --> 0:00:59.516 book The Sixth Extinction, which is all about biodiversity loss 0:00:59.796 --> 0:01:04.356 as a result of the human impact on the environment. Elizabeth, 0:01:04.396 --> 0:01:07.076 thank you very much for being here with us. I 0:01:07.156 --> 0:01:10.956 want to ask you about biodiversity from a range of perspectives, 0:01:10.996 --> 0:01:13.516 and I want to start with the question of what 0:01:13.596 --> 0:01:16.836 biodiversity is. It's a kind of catchy phrase, and we 0:01:16.876 --> 0:01:19.516 all feel bad when we hear that biodiversity is endangered. 0:01:20.036 --> 0:01:23.396 But what do we mean when we actually say biodiversity. Well, 0:01:23.436 --> 0:01:26.116 that's a good question. I think that in its most 0:01:26.196 --> 0:01:32.716 basic sense, you know, biodiversity refers to the variety of 0:01:32.796 --> 0:01:37.556 life on Earth, and a sort of shorthand is often 0:01:38.276 --> 0:01:41.716 how many species there are on Earth, and the fact 0:01:41.756 --> 0:01:43.796 of the matter is, we don't know how many species 0:01:43.836 --> 0:01:45.716 there are on Earth. They like to use that estimated 0:01:45.796 --> 0:01:48.236 number of eight million, right, Yeah, I mean there are 0:01:48.236 --> 0:01:51.916 all sorts of numbers that get thrown around because you know, 0:01:51.916 --> 0:01:54.956 we've only sort of named and identified, you know, around 0:01:54.996 --> 0:01:57.676 a million species, so people have to sort of extrapolate 0:01:57.796 --> 0:02:00.196 from that based on, you know, the rate at which 0:02:00.236 --> 0:02:03.756 you're discovering new species. Things like that. We do know, 0:02:03.836 --> 0:02:06.436 don't we that? However, many species there are a whole 0:02:06.476 --> 0:02:09.356 bunch of them are insects. Right. When people is that 0:02:09.396 --> 0:02:11.276 eight million number, they tend to say five and a 0:02:11.316 --> 0:02:13.156 half million or insects. And even if you accept that 0:02:13.196 --> 0:02:16.436 as a total projection, they're saying that substantially more than 0:02:16.516 --> 0:02:19.716 half of the species in our biodiversity measure are in 0:02:19.756 --> 0:02:23.916 fact insects. Yes, the vast majority of species on Earth 0:02:23.916 --> 0:02:27.476 are invertebrates, so you know, animals without a backbone, and 0:02:27.556 --> 0:02:31.396 of those, the biggest group are insects. Yes, definitely. So 0:02:31.436 --> 0:02:34.316 when we talk about the number of species on Earth, 0:02:34.356 --> 0:02:36.396 no matter what it is, as you point out, or 0:02:36.436 --> 0:02:39.436 even what order of magnitude it is, it's likely that 0:02:39.556 --> 0:02:42.796 you know, a great, great proportion of that will be insects. 0:02:43.756 --> 0:02:46.036 So can I ask a follow on question? That's it's 0:02:46.076 --> 0:02:49.436 a little philistinish, I fear, but I actually think it, 0:02:49.556 --> 0:02:51.276 So I want to ask you about it. And it's this, 0:02:51.916 --> 0:02:55.356 when we're talking about these vast numbers and then we 0:02:55.396 --> 0:02:59.516 talk about decline, what is the thing that we're supposed 0:02:59.556 --> 0:03:02.476 to be so panicked about, right, if we were to 0:03:02.516 --> 0:03:04.796 go from eight million species and I understand it's not 0:03:04.796 --> 0:03:09.156 a real number to seven million species, what is it 0:03:09.156 --> 0:03:15.236 it's inherently so worrisome about that observation on its own. Well, 0:03:15.276 --> 0:03:17.396 I think there are a number of different ways to 0:03:17.436 --> 0:03:21.916 answer that question. And the first one that comes to 0:03:21.996 --> 0:03:25.636 mind is if you're eliminating you know, a million species, 0:03:26.396 --> 0:03:29.996 that's an indicator that something very very serious is going on. 0:03:30.116 --> 0:03:32.996 And if you're a living organism, you know, like a human, 0:03:33.596 --> 0:03:37.156 you might wonder, you know, why, why is that happening? 0:03:37.316 --> 0:03:39.916 And how is it going to impact you know, my species, 0:03:39.956 --> 0:03:42.996 because it's pretty unlikely that you're getting rid of, let's 0:03:43.036 --> 0:03:46.156 just say, even an eighth of the species on Earth 0:03:46.316 --> 0:03:49.396 with no impacts. Now, if you want to look at it, 0:03:49.516 --> 0:03:51.076 you know, kind of what does this mean to me? 0:03:51.156 --> 0:03:53.716 What are those million species mean to me? Right now? 0:03:54.316 --> 0:03:57.556 I think the answer that you could give is you 0:03:57.636 --> 0:04:00.996 just don't know. You know, human life, though we live 0:04:01.116 --> 0:04:06.436 in this sort of a lot of manufactured habitat most 0:04:06.436 --> 0:04:10.956 of us, most of the time, we're still absolutely vitally 0:04:11.156 --> 0:04:16.556 dependent on the biological world, biological geochemical cycles, which we're 0:04:16.756 --> 0:04:19.836 screwing around with very very dramatically right now, and that's 0:04:19.876 --> 0:04:24.196 why we're seeing these very high extinction rates. And which 0:04:24.196 --> 0:04:28.876 species we actually depend on, which species are absolutely crucial 0:04:28.916 --> 0:04:31.916 to human life, we don't know, But you wouldn't want 0:04:31.956 --> 0:04:34.236 to screw around with it to the point that you 0:04:34.596 --> 0:04:36.676 find out and realize, oh, that that was the one 0:04:36.716 --> 0:04:40.076 that was really crucial. So can I follow on that too? Though? 0:04:40.516 --> 0:04:42.916 I hear the argument and it sounds like it's an 0:04:42.956 --> 0:04:47.316 argument from uncertainty, right It says something like, that's a 0:04:47.316 --> 0:04:49.996 lot of species. Anytime you're losing a high percentage of 0:04:49.996 --> 0:04:53.236 what's out there in the world, things could go terribly awry, 0:04:53.276 --> 0:04:56.316 and we just don't know how that might be the case. 0:04:56.516 --> 0:04:59.476 So you know, why not try to mitigate and avoid 0:04:59.596 --> 0:05:03.956 the things that are causing this decline in species? If 0:05:03.996 --> 0:05:05.916 that's the argument I tell me first time, I getting 0:05:05.916 --> 0:05:07.676 it right. Well, I mean that's I could offer you 0:05:07.716 --> 0:05:11.916 another argument, and that would simply be an ethical argument. 0:05:11.996 --> 0:05:15.676 I suppose what gives humans, you know, we obviously have 0:05:15.716 --> 0:05:18.876 the ability to eliminate a lot of species. What gives 0:05:18.916 --> 0:05:21.996 us the right, as it were, to do that. I'd 0:05:21.996 --> 0:05:23.476 like to talk about both of those, if it's if 0:05:23.476 --> 0:05:26.196 it's okay with you. They both seem super important. The 0:05:26.276 --> 0:05:29.396 first is a kind of human centric argument, right, you know, 0:05:29.436 --> 0:05:32.636 we should care about these features of our world because 0:05:33.076 --> 0:05:36.156 we might really be in trouble if we don't. The 0:05:36.236 --> 0:05:40.316 second is an argument from morality or from ethics, not 0:05:40.436 --> 0:05:43.396 humans focused in the same way that says, well, you know, 0:05:43.436 --> 0:05:45.316 we shouldn't assume that just because we're the humans, we 0:05:45.316 --> 0:05:46.436 have the right to do all these things that we 0:05:46.476 --> 0:05:47.996 have the capacity to. So I think those are both 0:05:47.996 --> 0:05:50.996 super interesting and important. I'd love to talk about both them. Yeah, 0:05:51.436 --> 0:05:54.756 on the uncertainty argument, this seems to me kind of 0:05:54.796 --> 0:05:57.436 different than the argument with respect to say, climate change, 0:05:57.476 --> 0:06:00.916 which is, you know, the other very pressing environmental issue 0:06:00.916 --> 0:06:08.036 of our moment. There there's overwhelming evidence that rising temperatures 0:06:08.436 --> 0:06:12.596 are going to transformative and transformatively bad effects on huge 0:06:12.676 --> 0:06:17.756 numbers of human beings in the pretty near foreseeable future. 0:06:18.316 --> 0:06:20.076 And that sounds like, as you know, you're looking for 0:06:20.076 --> 0:06:22.116 clarion calls to action. That sounds like a pretty powerful one. 0:06:22.116 --> 0:06:24.756 It's human focused, and it says things are getting bad 0:06:24.796 --> 0:06:29.156 in the following set of ways with respect to the biodiversity. 0:06:29.996 --> 0:06:35.396 Isn't the uncertainty argument slightly mitigated by the history of 0:06:35.556 --> 0:06:38.236 big extinctions? I mean, you call your book the six Extinction, 0:06:38.276 --> 0:06:42.636 because there are five massive prior extinctions, and those all 0:06:42.676 --> 0:06:47.396 took place, and they were caused by disasters into typically 0:06:47.436 --> 0:06:50.956 of various kinds. Of course, they led to big changes 0:06:50.996 --> 0:06:53.676 in the nature of the biodiversity that was out there, 0:06:54.316 --> 0:06:56.596 but we don't know for sure that we would be 0:06:56.636 --> 0:06:59.796 the dinosaurs as it were, right, I mean. And the 0:06:59.876 --> 0:07:02.516 question then becomes, if we're balancing at the human level 0:07:03.196 --> 0:07:07.036 a whole bunch of competing interests, the main one, as 0:07:07.036 --> 0:07:08.996 far as I can make out, is the size of 0:07:09.116 --> 0:07:12.796 a population, because the report suggests that the most significant 0:07:12.796 --> 0:07:15.756 of the various things that's leading to the decline and 0:07:15.796 --> 0:07:18.756 biodiversity is just how many people we have and growing 0:07:18.796 --> 0:07:23.476 food for them and eating animals and fishing for fish, 0:07:23.476 --> 0:07:25.396 and the range of other features that come with having 0:07:25.476 --> 0:07:29.156 so many people. So if we're trading off human values 0:07:29.716 --> 0:07:33.876 like the population against uncertainty, isn't that sort of different 0:07:33.876 --> 0:07:36.796 than the climate change context, where you know that we're 0:07:36.836 --> 0:07:38.556 in a lot of trouble, and we're in a lot 0:07:38.596 --> 0:07:41.156 of trouble very very soon. Well, I want to see 0:07:41.156 --> 0:07:43.676 if you if you accept the idea, you know that 0:07:43.716 --> 0:07:48.196 we're causing a mass extinction, a spasm of extinction, you know, 0:07:48.836 --> 0:07:53.396 potentially on the level of these mass extinctions of the 0:07:53.476 --> 0:07:56.916 path the most recent one of which you know, it's 0:07:56.956 --> 0:08:00.156 believed was caused by an asteroid impact. That's the event, 0:08:00.356 --> 0:08:03.236 the End Cretaceous extinction, which did in you know, not 0:08:03.276 --> 0:08:06.836 just the dinosaurs, which were a dominant form of life 0:08:06.876 --> 0:08:10.876 on land, but also lots of other major groups of organisms, 0:08:11.036 --> 0:08:13.716 and also opened the door for us, not totally coincidentially, 0:08:13.716 --> 0:08:18.596 our little rabbit like rodent like ancestors. Yes, absolutely, But 0:08:18.916 --> 0:08:22.196 even if you were a bird or a small mammal, 0:08:22.436 --> 0:08:25.956 kind of shrew like mammal which lived through the End 0:08:25.956 --> 0:08:30.756 Cretaceous extinction and eventually did give rise to us, I 0:08:30.796 --> 0:08:34.356 don't think that the End Cretaceous extinction was an event 0:08:34.476 --> 0:08:37.396 you would have wanted to live through. It's not the 0:08:37.516 --> 0:08:40.156 kind of world you would have wanted to, you know, 0:08:40.236 --> 0:08:44.196 bequeath to your shrew like children. I think that the 0:08:44.476 --> 0:08:48.276 defining characteristic of a mass extinction is a lot of 0:08:48.636 --> 0:08:53.876 a lot of bad shit going down and cascading effects 0:08:53.956 --> 0:08:59.396 that would affect all groups. So yes, some made it through, absolutely, 0:08:59.476 --> 0:09:02.676 But to take the kind of view sixty six million 0:09:02.756 --> 0:09:06.076 years later, it's easy to sort of sort of blithely say, well, 0:09:06.236 --> 0:09:07.876 you know, that doesn't look so bad from a distance 0:09:07.876 --> 0:09:11.476 of sixty six million years, But I think I look bad. 0:09:11.476 --> 0:09:14.156 That's that's not the argument, But go on, okay, But 0:09:14.276 --> 0:09:17.276 also to say, well, you know it takes your you know, 0:09:17.316 --> 0:09:20.076 you pay your money, you take your chances. We're the 0:09:20.116 --> 0:09:23.276 dominant organism. Now we might come through this extinction event 0:09:23.316 --> 0:09:26.836 still of the dominant organism. I don't think any biologist 0:09:27.196 --> 0:09:29.916 on the planet would say that would be a good 0:09:29.956 --> 0:09:31.596 debt to make. But that's not I mean, to be 0:09:32.236 --> 0:09:35.076 completely you know candid, that's not that I don't think 0:09:35.156 --> 0:09:37.196 is the strongest version of the argument. I mean, the 0:09:37.276 --> 0:09:40.076 strongest version of the argument is something like this, we're 0:09:40.116 --> 0:09:43.116 involved in a world of constant trade offs. We have 0:09:43.156 --> 0:09:47.156 a lot of people on the earth. Those people need 0:09:47.156 --> 0:09:49.556 to eat, and even if all they're eating is fruits 0:09:49.596 --> 0:09:52.276 and vegetables, they need agricultural in order to do that. 0:09:52.756 --> 0:09:57.516 If we significantly changed the degree to which we're relying 0:09:57.676 --> 0:10:01.596 on agriculture and other things to raise food, if we 0:10:01.636 --> 0:10:03.236 could do that in some way, they would still let 0:10:03.316 --> 0:10:06.316 us affordably feed all these people that we have. That 0:10:06.316 --> 0:10:08.756 would be one thing. But we don't actually have the 0:10:08.756 --> 0:10:12.476 full capacity to do that yet. Well that's a that's 0:10:12.476 --> 0:10:15.276 a hardy I mean, you could say you're damned if 0:10:15.276 --> 0:10:17.756 you do, you're damned if you don't. I mean, we 0:10:17.836 --> 0:10:20.996 rely very, very heavily on you know, the health of 0:10:21.036 --> 0:10:25.636 our soils, pollination services that are delivered for free by 0:10:25.676 --> 0:10:28.356 lots of those insects that we were talking about. It's 0:10:28.396 --> 0:10:32.556 not clear that you can do without those and feed 0:10:32.796 --> 0:10:35.476 you know, eight billion, going on nine billion people. Totally 0:10:35.516 --> 0:10:38.356 fair point, but it's a tradeoff situation. You know, reducing 0:10:38.436 --> 0:10:41.876 population substantially, which was the view of all thoughtful educated 0:10:41.876 --> 0:10:44.676 people a century ago. We don't think that's ethical anymore. 0:10:45.116 --> 0:10:47.356 You know, we're beyond that kind of eugenics phase. We 0:10:47.556 --> 0:10:50.236 we accept the world's population for what it is, and 0:10:50.316 --> 0:10:53.156 so then we're in a world of trade offs and 0:10:53.476 --> 0:10:56.396 how do how do we make those trade offs against uncertainty. 0:10:57.116 --> 0:10:59.596 The extinction of the Cretasius tertiary boundary that we were 0:10:59.596 --> 0:11:04.436 talking about was an asteroidal extinction. It wasn't human caused. 0:11:04.676 --> 0:11:07.156 This one is human caused, and to some extent, it's 0:11:07.156 --> 0:11:10.076 the result of humans making decisions that are designed to 0:11:10.076 --> 0:11:12.196 serve the interest of humans. They may be the wrong decisions, 0:11:12.196 --> 0:11:15.596 we may be getting it totally wrong, but they are decisions, 0:11:15.876 --> 0:11:19.076 for example, with respect to growing things that humans have 0:11:19.156 --> 0:11:23.076 made the judgment are necessary to keep us going. You're 0:11:23.116 --> 0:11:25.756 trading off, on the one hand, supporting human life against 0:11:25.756 --> 0:11:27.916 on the other hand, the uncertainty of the consequences of 0:11:28.156 --> 0:11:32.076 the decline. Yeah, and I think that is exactly what 0:11:32.156 --> 0:11:35.236 we're doing. We're doing it unconsciously, and I also want 0:11:35.236 --> 0:11:40.036 to say we are quite possibly doing it very unwisely. 0:11:40.676 --> 0:11:44.276 What looks like a good trade off in the moment 0:11:44.516 --> 0:11:46.876 right in twenty nineteen, which looks like a good trade 0:11:46.876 --> 0:11:49.756 off to us right now, is that a good trade 0:11:49.796 --> 0:11:51.436 off for our kids? Is that a good trade off 0:11:51.436 --> 0:11:54.276 for our kids kids? I mean, these are questions that 0:11:54.756 --> 0:12:01.076 you know, unfortunately from purely scientific, biological and even you know, 0:12:01.156 --> 0:12:04.476 probably ethical view are unanswerable, but I think they have 0:12:04.516 --> 0:12:07.756 to be factored in. One other point that I want 0:12:07.796 --> 0:12:11.636 to make, and I think it's pretty important, is as 0:12:11.836 --> 0:12:14.316 we eat higher and higher, and as more and more 0:12:14.356 --> 0:12:16.596 of us, you know, eat higher and higher, as it were, 0:12:16.596 --> 0:12:19.556 on the food chain, we're using more and more calories 0:12:19.596 --> 0:12:24.636 to produce our own chloric intake. So I don't think 0:12:24.676 --> 0:12:29.316 it's at all true that you know, land use decisions 0:12:29.396 --> 0:12:33.276 are straightforward. They're very very complicated, and they you know, 0:12:33.356 --> 0:12:35.716 have to do with not just feeding eight billion people, 0:12:35.716 --> 0:12:38.716 but how we're feeding eight billion people. For sure. I 0:12:38.956 --> 0:12:42.116 don't dispute that for a moment. I wanted to turn 0:12:42.156 --> 0:12:44.236 out to this ethical argument that you raise, which is 0:12:44.276 --> 0:12:46.876 different from the where you know, we're playing dice with 0:12:46.916 --> 0:12:50.076 our future. It's the argument that, as you put it, 0:12:50.596 --> 0:12:53.996 humans have the capacity to have a you know, an 0:12:54.036 --> 0:12:56.196 unpresented effect on the environment. That's why you know, a 0:12:56.236 --> 0:12:58.036 lot of people think we're already in the anthropasy and 0:12:58.036 --> 0:13:00.556 age defined geologically as the time that humans are having 0:13:00.556 --> 0:13:03.796 an impact on the earth. But we shouldn't. We don't 0:13:03.796 --> 0:13:05.596 have as you put it, the right to do that. 0:13:05.956 --> 0:13:07.156 I don't know if you hold that view, but I'm 0:13:07.156 --> 0:13:09.876 actually really curious to hear whether you do, and if so, 0:13:10.036 --> 0:13:14.116 to hear a little bit more about why you think that. Well. 0:13:14.156 --> 0:13:17.836 I mean, I think from a obviously, humans are one 0:13:17.876 --> 0:13:21.476 species out of let's just say eight million, right, I think, 0:13:21.596 --> 0:13:25.756 you know, the history of human consciousness, as it were, 0:13:26.276 --> 0:13:30.676 has been a kind of widening circle of our concern 0:13:31.196 --> 0:13:33.756 and I think that, you know, we may look back 0:13:33.756 --> 0:13:37.476 at this particular moment when we kind of blithely did 0:13:37.476 --> 0:13:39.756 in a lot of species, and a lot of species 0:13:39.796 --> 0:13:41.876 I want to say that are very very close relatives 0:13:41.876 --> 0:13:46.756 of ours. I mean, you know, orangutangs, gorillas, chimps are 0:13:46.796 --> 0:13:50.276 all very highly threatened right now. So we are doing 0:13:50.396 --> 0:13:53.956 in you know, species, a very high level of consciousness. 0:13:54.076 --> 0:13:55.556 We can you know, you can get into the question 0:13:55.596 --> 0:13:58.076 of also, you know, whether we make a distinction, whether 0:13:58.236 --> 0:14:01.436 this ethical argument even allows for a distinction between conscious 0:14:01.436 --> 0:14:04.756 creatures and unconscious creatures, And perhaps it doesn't, but I 0:14:04.796 --> 0:14:09.276 should point out that we are sort of doing in 0:14:09.756 --> 0:14:13.756 you know, our evolutionarily our very closest relatives, and I 0:14:13.796 --> 0:14:15.356 don't think we're going to look back on this. I 0:14:15.356 --> 0:14:19.236 don't think that, you know, humanity, whatever you know becomes 0:14:19.236 --> 0:14:22.476 of us, is going to look back at that. That's 0:14:22.516 --> 0:14:24.276 going to look like a crime. That's going to look 0:14:24.396 --> 0:14:27.516 you know, not less necessarily crimes against humanity, but crimes 0:14:27.516 --> 0:14:32.436 against humanity's closest relatives. I'm super fascinated by this line 0:14:32.436 --> 0:14:34.556 of line of thought. I always have been, and it's 0:14:34.636 --> 0:14:37.716 you know, a lot of environmentalism takes some part in 0:14:37.756 --> 0:14:40.036 this kind of mode of thinking that we ought not 0:14:40.116 --> 0:14:43.316 to have this effect on the world, not just because 0:14:43.316 --> 0:14:49.036 we're causing pain, not just because we're eventually having you know, 0:14:49.116 --> 0:14:52.116 terrible effects, as you said, killing off our closest cousins, 0:14:52.516 --> 0:14:55.876 but more broadly, that somehow we shouldn't be so focused 0:14:55.876 --> 0:14:59.516 on human consciousness. And I guess my question, and this 0:14:59.596 --> 0:15:01.396 is something I've always struggled with myself. So it's not 0:15:01.436 --> 0:15:04.516 like I think there's some magic blood answer to it is, 0:15:04.996 --> 0:15:08.756 what about the our observation that, although of course we 0:15:08.796 --> 0:15:11.876 do image far out of proportion to all other species, 0:15:12.636 --> 0:15:16.356 that no other species seems to exercise this kind of 0:15:16.356 --> 0:15:21.596 concern for making sure that they take into account the 0:15:21.636 --> 0:15:24.956 interests of other species, or even other individuals of the 0:15:24.996 --> 0:15:27.916 species I mean all species. But that just seems like 0:15:27.956 --> 0:15:31.676 another kind of you know, human sallipsism. To be honest, 0:15:31.716 --> 0:15:34.636 I mean, this is meant to say that what would 0:15:34.636 --> 0:15:37.676 be salapsistic would be assuming that because humans uniquely have 0:15:37.716 --> 0:15:40.676 the ability to think of the interests of others, therefore 0:15:41.276 --> 0:15:43.276 it must be that the correct ethical way to be 0:15:43.356 --> 0:15:44.836 is I think of the interests of others. This is 0:15:44.956 --> 0:15:47.716 the question from meant to be from the other side, well, 0:15:47.876 --> 0:15:50.116 I mean, yeah, that's one way to look at it. 0:15:50.156 --> 0:15:52.836 But I think that once again, the history of you know, 0:15:52.876 --> 0:15:55.716 the last you know, five hundred years or whatever from 0:15:55.796 --> 0:16:00.116 you know, turning from a geocentric to a heliocentric world 0:16:00.676 --> 0:16:06.116 should be sort of questioning trying to decenter humans. And 0:16:06.516 --> 0:16:09.636 we are faced with this really interesting situation and board knows, 0:16:09.716 --> 0:16:11.556 you know, if I had the answer to this, I 0:16:11.596 --> 0:16:13.956 would be happy to impart it. I don't, but I 0:16:14.516 --> 0:16:17.836 certainly think that all of these things are worth questioning 0:16:17.956 --> 0:16:21.956 pretty profoundly at this particular moment in time. And so 0:16:21.996 --> 0:16:26.756 we're faced with this really interesting two divergent trends as 0:16:26.756 --> 0:16:29.756 that were here. One this as I say, d centering 0:16:29.756 --> 0:16:33.476 of people, you know, we're descended from a common ancestor 0:16:33.476 --> 0:16:35.956 with chimps. The Sun does not revolve around the Earth. 0:16:35.996 --> 0:16:39.196 There's revolves around the Sun. So we're one planet among 0:16:39.316 --> 0:16:43.436 you know, millions and potentially billions, So we're pretty small 0:16:43.436 --> 0:16:46.156 aspects in the universe as it were. But then we're 0:16:46.196 --> 0:16:49.596 also one of the lessons of the last generation or 0:16:49.636 --> 0:16:52.956 so has been Wow, we are having a really significant 0:16:52.956 --> 0:16:56.156 impact on this one planet that we as humans call 0:16:56.276 --> 0:16:58.956 home and on everything that shares it with us, and 0:16:58.956 --> 0:17:01.436 that shares an evolutionary history with us that you know, 0:17:01.476 --> 0:17:04.916 we now know goes back almost four billion years. So 0:17:04.956 --> 0:17:08.156 those are pretty heavy numbers in both directions. They sort 0:17:08.156 --> 0:17:11.476 of point and conflict directions, and the fact that we 0:17:11.556 --> 0:17:17.036 have not found as satisfactory way of working our way 0:17:17.076 --> 0:17:22.636 through them is unfortunate because this damage is permanent. You know, 0:17:22.676 --> 0:17:24.556 when you get rid of the species you have, you 0:17:24.596 --> 0:17:27.836 have permanently cut off its evolutionary possibility. So we're really 0:17:27.916 --> 0:17:30.796 screwing with the evolution of life. And once again, this 0:17:30.836 --> 0:17:33.356 goes way beyond you know, our kids and our kids kids. 0:17:33.356 --> 0:17:35.916 It goes to the future of all life on Earth, 0:17:36.036 --> 0:17:38.276 you know, forever. I love the way you put that 0:17:38.276 --> 0:17:41.276 that there's a deep contradiction between two two different insights, 0:17:41.316 --> 0:17:44.036 one that we're just another species and the other that, boy, 0:17:44.076 --> 0:17:46.876 we're not just another species. We're having this disproportionate impact 0:17:47.236 --> 0:17:50.596 when it comes to screwing with evolution. To use your phrase, um, 0:17:51.196 --> 0:17:53.476 are you a believer that that's always a bad thing? 0:17:53.516 --> 0:17:55.316 I mean, I assume that you're in favor of all 0:17:55.396 --> 0:17:57.996 kinds of ways that we tweak evolution that make us 0:17:58.076 --> 0:18:01.276 better off as as humans, from you know, from antibiotics 0:18:01.676 --> 0:18:05.316 on down. You know, I'm not I don't want to say, like, 0:18:05.756 --> 0:18:09.356 you know, screwing with evolution is some you know, you're 0:18:09.436 --> 0:18:12.116 right as you say, every time you know, you um, 0:18:13.036 --> 0:18:15.556 you know, step on that you know, aunt or whatever 0:18:15.676 --> 0:18:18.596 you've on some level, obviously everything is always you know, 0:18:18.676 --> 0:18:22.276 screwing with you know, other organisms all the time. But 0:18:22.356 --> 0:18:27.636 I think we very rarely knowingly and consciously and happily 0:18:28.636 --> 0:18:32.156 cut off entire limbs of the evolutionary tree. And that 0:18:32.196 --> 0:18:36.356 sort of brings me back to our closest relatives. I mean, 0:18:37.036 --> 0:18:41.316 there were a lot of human cousins around at one point. 0:18:41.356 --> 0:18:43.596 We know more and more about different you know, sort 0:18:43.596 --> 0:18:48.556 of human species or subspecies. The Neanderthals, the nencipents, their 0:18:48.636 --> 0:18:52.036 doubtless others out there that no longer exist, quite probably 0:18:52.036 --> 0:18:55.356 because of us. And we are also looking at getting 0:18:55.436 --> 0:18:57.956 rid of great apes. If you just look at the 0:18:57.956 --> 0:19:00.956 future of the evolution of consciousness, right, if we consider 0:19:00.996 --> 0:19:04.516 those to be the animals of the highest you know, consciousness, 0:19:04.876 --> 0:19:09.396 we are potentially creating a world where consciousness you know, 0:19:09.436 --> 0:19:11.876 will not arise again, or will not arise for a 0:19:11.996 --> 0:19:14.396 very very very long time, and you know, take a 0:19:14.476 --> 0:19:16.956 very very different form, quite likely at that point. But 0:19:16.996 --> 0:19:19.276 it just so I understand. Are you saying that if 0:19:19.316 --> 0:19:23.716 those other higher primates continue to exist in and in 0:19:23.796 --> 0:19:26.676 larger numbers, that there would be the possibility of the 0:19:26.916 --> 0:19:31.076 of a repeat in the evolutionary process in which consciousness, 0:19:31.076 --> 0:19:34.436 at least of the human type it would evolve another time, 0:19:34.636 --> 0:19:37.276 another time around. No, I'm not necessarily saying that, although 0:19:37.316 --> 0:19:39.836 that is that is certainly possible. I'm just saying that 0:19:40.436 --> 0:19:43.156 if you consider you know, our great ape you know 0:19:43.196 --> 0:19:45.716 cousins to be conscious, and I certainly think that most 0:19:45.796 --> 0:19:50.796 you know, animal behaviorists would that consciousness itself would continue 0:19:50.796 --> 0:19:53.276 to exist. There would be other species of apes that 0:19:53.316 --> 0:19:57.596 would eventually arise they would not necessarily be humans. They 0:19:57.596 --> 0:19:59.796 would be other things. They would be you know, they 0:19:59.796 --> 0:20:03.876 wouldn't necessarily be have any more or less consciousness, you 0:20:03.876 --> 0:20:06.996 know than a gorilla does. Now let's just say, but um, 0:20:07.356 --> 0:20:10.196 that would be a possibility, that would bevolutionary possibility that 0:20:10.236 --> 0:20:12.356 was open. If you do away with all the species 0:20:12.356 --> 0:20:14.396 of great apes, as we are, you know, pretty much 0:20:14.436 --> 0:20:16.636 on our way to doing right now, then you're just 0:20:16.676 --> 0:20:21.876 cutting off that evolutionary possibility. And I'm simply using this 0:20:21.956 --> 0:20:25.516 example once again of apes because I think that it, 0:20:26.276 --> 0:20:29.916 you know, there are a lot of other evolutionary branches 0:20:30.196 --> 0:20:33.276 that are being you know, cut off for a whole genus, 0:20:33.356 --> 0:20:36.276 let's us say, is disappearing, or there's only one species 0:20:36.356 --> 0:20:39.356 left in the genus and it's disappearing. I mentioned apes 0:20:39.396 --> 0:20:42.396 because I think people have an emotional reaction to them, 0:20:42.396 --> 0:20:44.516 and if they thought of a world without great apes, 0:20:44.876 --> 0:20:48.996 and they think of that evolutionary possibility being closed off, 0:20:49.836 --> 0:20:54.396 that would have some you know, emotional connection that you know, 0:20:54.436 --> 0:20:56.676 if I tell you about this, you know, genus of 0:20:56.796 --> 0:20:59.076 I was just out in Nevada, and I you know, 0:20:59.996 --> 0:21:03.276 was met saw. I don't know what word you'd use 0:21:03.396 --> 0:21:06.036 encountered a you know, a fish that's the last fish 0:21:06.036 --> 0:21:09.396 in its genus because we've been soaking the wall are 0:21:09.396 --> 0:21:12.636 out of the Nevada Desert, so all the other species 0:21:12.636 --> 0:21:15.316 in this genus are gone. I don't think that has 0:21:15.356 --> 0:21:18.356 as much, you know, kind of connection to people, but 0:21:18.396 --> 0:21:21.396 it's it's another way in which you know, we are 0:21:21.556 --> 0:21:25.596 we are cutting off that evolutionary possibility. Can I ask 0:21:25.636 --> 0:21:29.236 about what we can do? I mean, what are the 0:21:29.276 --> 0:21:35.556 real world doable things that could substantially reduce the harm 0:21:35.636 --> 0:21:37.876 that we're doing to to biodiversity that's out there in 0:21:37.876 --> 0:21:43.996 the world. Well, I think that, you know, the basic answer, 0:21:44.036 --> 0:21:47.876 probably the first order answer would be gets back to 0:21:47.916 --> 0:21:51.116 that question of land use that we were discussing. I mean, 0:21:51.156 --> 0:21:57.796 if we did not cut down the rest of the Amazon, 0:21:57.916 --> 0:22:01.076 cut down the rest of the rainforest in the Congo, 0:22:01.276 --> 0:22:06.996 you know, these big big still extant and you know, 0:22:07.156 --> 0:22:12.596 relatively intact what are called biodiversity hot spots. The tropics 0:22:12.716 --> 0:22:15.956 is where most of the diversity of the world exists. 0:22:16.036 --> 0:22:20.236 There's you know, historical reasons for that. The tropics have 0:22:20.356 --> 0:22:22.516 been have had a fairly stable climate for a long 0:22:22.556 --> 0:22:26.716 time and had the ice ages and the temperature, fluctulating, 0:22:26.836 --> 0:22:29.716 all things which are bad for a species continuation. Right 0:22:29.996 --> 0:22:33.156 There's just been a long history of life evolving under 0:22:33.156 --> 0:22:36.236 relatively stable conditions in that you know, that's one theory, 0:22:36.236 --> 0:22:38.956 and it's it's a pretty popular theory. That's why, that's 0:22:38.956 --> 0:22:41.156 why there's so much biodiversity in the tropics right now 0:22:41.876 --> 0:22:45.076 as opposed to in temperate zones like you know, where 0:22:45.316 --> 0:22:47.796 you and I live, where you know, there was ice 0:22:47.836 --> 0:22:51.716 covering this area for you know, until twelve thousand years 0:22:51.716 --> 0:22:54.916