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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this

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Speaker 1: is There Are No Girls on the Internet. Welcome to

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Speaker 1: There No Girls on the Internet. Where we were the

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Speaker 1: intersection of technology, social media and identity. And this is

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Speaker 1: another installment of our weekly news roundup where we dig

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Speaker 1: into all the stories that you might have missed on

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Speaker 1: the Internet so you don't have to. I cannot wait

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Speaker 1: to talk to you about that Vanity Fair article and spread.

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Speaker 1: All I can really say is wolf, let's talk about it.

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Speaker 1: First of all, did you see it? Did you see

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Speaker 1: the Fanity Fair of spread and accompanying article.

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Speaker 2: I did, and I was blown away by both of them.

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Speaker 2: The article and the stuff that Susie Wilds was saying

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Speaker 2: was wild. I don't know how that happened. And then

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Speaker 2: also so like seemingly separately, those photos were also uh.

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Speaker 2: I don't even know what the adjective is, like disturbing.

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Speaker 2: I guess uh. I can't imagine that any of the

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Speaker 2: subjects of those photos were happy with what they saw.

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Speaker 2: What were your thoughts about it?

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Speaker 1: Before I even get into the photos, because that's really

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Speaker 1: what I want to talk about the fact that Susie

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Speaker 1: Wiles said, I mean some of the things that she

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Speaker 1: said about Elon Musk. He's an avow ketamine user who

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Speaker 1: sleeps in a sleeping bag in the executive office building

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Speaker 1: adjacent to the White House. You know, he's an ad duck,

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Speaker 1: he's not helpful, this and that, and then her saying

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Speaker 1: I never said that. I would never say that about

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Speaker 1: Elon Musk. I don't know if he uses drugs, and

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Speaker 1: then Vendi Fair being like, oh, really, because we got

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Speaker 1: it on tape. Here's a recording of you saying it.

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Speaker 1: I reject the idea that somebody who is as seasoned

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Speaker 1: as Susie Wiles would not know that this would be recorded. Like,

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Speaker 1: my understanding is that this profile was almost a year

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Speaker 1: in the making, eleven months. I have to imagine that

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Speaker 1: she is thinking that they have some sort of backup

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Speaker 1: to confirm what they've said. So her just quickly going

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Speaker 1: to disavow and distance herself from those words was really

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Speaker 1: I'm not even sure what to make it. And I've

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Speaker 1: heard different takes from different political and media insiders, but

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Speaker 1: to this day, I'm not sure what that was.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you and I talked about it. Because she

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Speaker 2: didn't just have unhelpful things to say about Elon muskause

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Speaker 2: she talked about a lot of people, including Jade Vance.

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Speaker 2: You know, she had some unflattering things to say about

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Speaker 2: him and other people in the administration. And once the

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Speaker 2: story came out, like you said, she seemed to try

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Speaker 2: to deny some of it, and then that didn't work

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Speaker 2: because they had recordings. And then she made a big

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Speaker 2: deal about like there is additional context and things were

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Speaker 2: taken out of context, like really trying to distance herself

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Speaker 2: from things that seemed like they were direct quotes from her.

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Speaker 2: And it's really puzzling, like how she, as someone who

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Speaker 2: has been in politics and not just politics are Chason,

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Speaker 2: but like bare knuckles knees deep in politics for decades,

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Speaker 2: How she could let this happen is really baffling. My

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Speaker 2: personal theory is that it's hubris, and it's just like

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Speaker 2: from being in the White House with Trump in a

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Speaker 2: culture of sycophancy and flattery, it like poisoned her mind

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Speaker 2: and she let her guard down around this reporter. I guess,

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Speaker 2: I don't know. It's a little hard to believe, but

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Speaker 2: the whole thing is difficult to believe.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and let's talk about the photos. My favorite comparison

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Speaker 1: that I've seen about the photo is I know you

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Speaker 1: don't watch this show, but the episode of Sex in

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Speaker 1: the City, when Carrie is out all night hanging out

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Speaker 1: and partying with her friends. The day before she's meant

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Speaker 1: to be at New York Mag to put you to

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Speaker 1: cover photo and she it shows up late to the shoot.

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Speaker 1: She's hungover, she has a phot onto makeup, and so

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Speaker 1: she's sitting for what she has told or do just

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Speaker 1: test shots that they're not gonna use. But then she

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Speaker 1: sees the cover and she thought the cover was gonna

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Speaker 1: say single and fabulous exclamation point. But the photo they

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Speaker 1: use on the cover is hideous and it says single

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Speaker 1: and fabulous question mark. That is the only comparison that

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Speaker 1: I can make here.

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Speaker 2: That's a good comparison. I have not seen that show,

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Speaker 2: But man, what a difference punctuation can make.

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Speaker 1: Huh. Seriously, So nobody's photos in this thing looks look good.

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Speaker 1: Everybody looks bad. I think Rubio. There's a photo of

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Speaker 1: Rubio that you clearly understand that the argument being made,

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Speaker 1: the visual argument being made by the by the photos,

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Speaker 1: the way that they're staged. It's not just that the

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Speaker 1: people in them don't look good, which they don't. It

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Speaker 1: is a set of photos that is clearly making a

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Speaker 1: claim and an argument about the lack of leadership in

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Speaker 1: the White House, like staging someone where they're sitting next

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Speaker 1: there they're standing defiant next to an empty chair, but

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Speaker 1: the chair is posed in such a way where the

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Speaker 1: eye goes right to the empty chair, and it just

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Speaker 1: really makes it. It just you, you cannot look at

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Speaker 1: these pictures and not instantly get the point that they

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Speaker 1: are trying to make visually, I guess they'll put it

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Speaker 1: that way, like there are all these stances meant to

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Speaker 1: telegraph leadership, yet there's visible chords plugged in behind them

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Speaker 1: and like mismatched, a skew lampshades right beside them. Just

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Speaker 1: really nobody looks good here.

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Speaker 2: That photo of Rubio that you mentioned, the angles are

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Speaker 2: strange and like he's not a tall guy. I'm not

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Speaker 2: a tall guy either, but like he's a pretty short

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Speaker 2: guy on a team with like a bunch of big

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Speaker 2: tall guys who are into being tall, I guess, and

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Speaker 2: the angles make him look extra short and he's like

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Speaker 2: looking down. It is it's almost like a disturbing photo

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Speaker 2: to look at. It is like a portrait of dejection

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Speaker 2: or something. I don't even know. It's like an artful photo.

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Speaker 2: It's like it's shot through a fun house mirror lens

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Speaker 2: or something.

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Speaker 1: So the photo that really everybody is talking about is

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Speaker 1: the one of Caroline Lovett. It is a lot of

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Speaker 1: the photos are taken with this super close up stand

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Speaker 1: so like very very close. Nobody looks good into pictures

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Speaker 1: like that, so nobody looks good. But one of the

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Speaker 1: pieces of her photo that's really been making the rounds

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Speaker 1: online is the fact that it's so close up that

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Speaker 1: you can see around her lips. What are I think,

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Speaker 1: pretty clearly injection sites like she gets flip fillers. I

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Speaker 1: want to be careful with what I have to say here.

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Speaker 1: First of all, I don't begrudge anybody getting filler any

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Speaker 1: kind of cosmetic procedure, plastic surgery. I don't want anybody

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Speaker 1: thinking that I'm shaming people who opt to get that

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Speaker 1: kind of stuff done. I think it's great. I'm happy

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Speaker 1: that we live in a time where people have those

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Speaker 1: kinds of choices available to them. However, I have been

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Speaker 1: frankly sort of surprised by how many people and especially

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Speaker 1: women are like rushing to defend that Caroline lead it.

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Speaker 1: I completely get it. I think that it's a totally

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Speaker 1: gendered thing where women are more likely to be dragged

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Speaker 1: for their looks, for aging for our weight, especially professional women.

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Speaker 1: It is absolutely a gendered thing, and I don't think

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Speaker 1: it's like good when we live in a culture that

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Speaker 1: shames women for these things. But I do wonder if

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Speaker 1: we've kind of lost the forest for the trees of

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Speaker 1: when we just blanket say no one is allowed to

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Speaker 1: talk about the looks and physical features of anybody else, right.

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Speaker 1: I think that, you know, I've seen a lot of

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Speaker 1: women say, oh, well, it's anti feminists to talk about

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Speaker 1: injection sites around her lips in this photo that were visible,

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Speaker 1: and I'm just not so sure about that. I think

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Speaker 1: it's I mean, it's something that came up in our

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Speaker 1: episode around Taylor Swift. I think that we sort of

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Speaker 1: it's very kind of easy to rebrand feminism as feminism

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Speaker 1: is never saying a means thing to a woman, and

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Speaker 1: that's not really what it's about.

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Speaker 3: I think.

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Speaker 1: So this is my opinion. I get that it might

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Speaker 1: be unpopular, and I genuinely want feedback. I want to

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Speaker 1: hear what people think, but one I think for the

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Speaker 1: vast majority of people, not everyone, but for most people,

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Speaker 1: cosmetic procedures are voluntary. On another podcast that I'm the

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Speaker 1: co host of, Citycast DC, all about sort of what's

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Speaker 1: happening in DC, we did a whole episode about the

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Speaker 1: rise of what we call mar Lago face in DC.

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Speaker 1: How people who are are part of Trump's world, both

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Speaker 1: men and women, are getting specific types of plastic surgery

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Speaker 1: because that's what everybody in Trump world looks like, right.

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Speaker 1: So men are getting jaw implants and chin implants to

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Speaker 1: give them more sort of square jawlines. Women are getting

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Speaker 1: facelifts and getting stuffed under their eyebrows and lips. And

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Speaker 1: you know, there was a time where plastic surgery was

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Speaker 1: something that you would want to look natural, and you

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Speaker 1: would want people to look at you and think, you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe you didn't get plastic surgery. But that's not These

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Speaker 1: people are intentionally doing a different thing. You know, if

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Speaker 1: you look at people like Matt Gates, like, there are

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Speaker 1: people who when you look at them, the first thing

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Speaker 1: you see is that, oh, you've had plastic surgery, right,

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Speaker 1: And so I think for me, when we're talking about

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Speaker 1: voluntary cosmetic procedures. In my opinion, that's very different than

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Speaker 1: something like a physical feature that somebody can't control, right,

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Speaker 1: their race, their height, their weight, all different kinds of

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Speaker 1: things where it's like, oh, you're born this way, you

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Speaker 1: can't control it. It's how you are to me leave it.

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Speaker 1: Going to a METSPA and getting lip injections and paying

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Speaker 1: for them, that's not something she can't control. Quite the opposite,

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Speaker 1: that's a voluntary procedure that she paid for. And I think,

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Speaker 1: especially when you layer that into what I was just

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Speaker 1: talking about, the way that specific physical attributes have been

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Speaker 1: weaponized and prized and explicitly talked about by this administration

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Speaker 1: in the way that they are making policy decisions and

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Speaker 1: deciding who gets to be involved in policy decisions, I

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Speaker 1: think that's worth talking about. I also think these are

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Speaker 1: people who believe in like their racial and genetic superiority

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Speaker 1: above the racial and genetic superiority of other people people

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Speaker 1: like me, right, and so that being part of their

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Speaker 1: ideological framework, I think the way that they physically present

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Speaker 1: and the choices that they make around their physical presentation

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Speaker 1: is a fair game to be part of that conversation.

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Speaker 2: You make a compelling point. Bridget These people talk about

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Speaker 2: people's physical appearances all the time.

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Speaker 1: You made a great point before we started recording that

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Speaker 1: Trump has explicitly said things like, oh, I want my

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Speaker 1: cabinet to look straight out of Central Casting, and things

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Speaker 1: like this. The administration very explicitly is using physicality and

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Speaker 1: the way people look and cosmetic procedures in a certain

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Speaker 1: kind of way. And I just I don't think that

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Speaker 1: anybody should be shamed for the way that they look. However,

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Speaker 1: I do think that, you know, in an administration that

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Speaker 1: has talked about this in this way, I think it's

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Speaker 1: it behooves us to look at that. And I obviously

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Speaker 1: don't love tearing into a woman for her looks a move,

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Speaker 1: by the way, leave it herself defended when Trump called

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Speaker 1: a female journalist a pit But I just think that

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Speaker 1: when we blanket say, talking about someone's cosmetic procedures is

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Speaker 1: not fair game, we're not allowed to talk about any

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Speaker 1: of the other stuff that directly ties into how our

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Speaker 1: country is being run by whom.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good point, and it's it is a

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Speaker 2: complicated thing. You know. As a man, I'm pretty I've

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Speaker 2: gotten the memo that I shouldn't be commenting on women

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Speaker 2: in politics looks. But you make a great point that

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Speaker 2: like they have brought this into the conversation. Trump brings

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Speaker 2: it up all the time. A lot of maga types,

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Speaker 2: like you said, are into like racial superiority, racial comparisons. Ah,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's they've brought it into the conversation, and

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Speaker 2: it's it's a tricky thing because, like I certainly wouldn't

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Speaker 2: want the bar for the conversation to be set by

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump, who is like one of the worst humans

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Speaker 2: I've personally ever known about existing. But like Caroline Leavitt

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Speaker 2: is carrying water for him every day and like you said,

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Speaker 2: backing him up. When he calls reporters pigs or disparages

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Speaker 2: other reporters, it's often reporters, and it's often black women reporters,

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Speaker 2: and so they've made appearance part of the conversation.

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Speaker 1: Right. When asked about calling a female journalist a pig,

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Speaker 1: Lebrett said, oh, well, I think that we all know

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Speaker 1: that Trump calls it like it is, he calls it

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Speaker 1: like he sees it, He tells the truth, and it's like, okay,

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Speaker 1: So if that's the case, we can't tell the truth

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Speaker 1: about the fact that you've got visible injection sites visible

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Speaker 1: in this image. And I will say this is just

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Speaker 1: an aside part of my beef with it is a

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Speaker 1: makeup choice, because if you have injection sites and you're

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Speaker 1: getting a photo taken, why are they wearing translucent lip

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Speaker 1: gloss where a Matt Dark Live. That was my big

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Speaker 1: and we've already had confirmation that each of the subjects

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Speaker 1: they did their own styling, costuming, and makeup, So it

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Speaker 1: wasn't like Vanity Fair put her in a translucent lip

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Speaker 1: gloss and had her looking crazy with those injection sites

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Speaker 1: showing that was her choice.

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Speaker 2: And it's also not like they went into photograph her

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Speaker 2: in her office in the back of the White House

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Speaker 2: or something. It's like her job is to be up

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Speaker 2: on the podium talking to the press every day. She's,

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Speaker 2: you know, arguably one of the most photographed people in

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Speaker 2: the government, and the idea that someone taking a photo

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Speaker 2: of her would be inappropriate or unethical And I'm not

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Speaker 2: even sure what the complaint is. I guess unethical is

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Speaker 2: the complaint that, like the the photographer shouldn't have taken

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Speaker 2: that photo, or I guess you were telling you were

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Speaker 2: showing me some discourse online that people were suggesting that

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Speaker 2: the photographer should have airbrushed it or like used photoshop

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Speaker 2: for AI to hide those injection sites, right, And that

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Speaker 2: seems ridiculous to think that a photographer for an independent

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Speaker 2: journalistic outfit is going to touch up photos to hide

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Speaker 2: what is real and instead present a fantastical presentation to

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Speaker 2: their readers. Like that doesn't sound like good journalism.

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Speaker 1: So the photographer, Christopher Anderson answered exactly that. In an

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Speaker 1: interview with Shane O'Neil from The Post, O'Neil asked Anderson

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Speaker 1: for his response to people who thought the photos were unfair,

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Speaker 1: specifically mentioning the photo of Leave It and quote what

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Speaker 1: appeared to be injection Sitesson said, I didn't put the

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Speaker 1: injection sites on her. People seem to be shocked that

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Speaker 1: I didn't use photoshop to retouch out blemishes and her

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Speaker 1: injection marks. I find it shocking that someone would expect

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Speaker 1: me to retouch those things. That's the makeup that Leave

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Speaker 1: It puts on. Those are the injections she gave herself.

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Speaker 1: If they show up in a photo, what do you

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Speaker 1: want me to say? Which I have to say iconic

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Speaker 1: if you can see them. They were there. She put

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Speaker 1: them there. I didn't tell them to put them there.

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Speaker 1: What do you want from me? So he goes on

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Speaker 1: to say, Vanity Fair is a magazine that has its

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Speaker 1: feet in two worlds, right, one is the journalism world,

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Speaker 1: and one is the celebrity entertainment machine. Obviously, celebrity portraits

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Speaker 1: on the cover of Vanity Fair are not really about

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Speaker 1: journalism in the way that you and I think about journalism.

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Speaker 1: But then there's the other side of Vanity Fair, which

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Speaker 1: is real journalism. I'm surprised that a journalist would even

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Speaker 1: need to ask me the question of why didn't I

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Speaker 1: retouch out the blemishes, because if I had, that would

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Speaker 1: be a lie. I would be hiding the truth of

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Speaker 1: what I saw there. And that is exactly what you're

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Speaker 1: saying that, you know. I think people maybe forget that

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Speaker 1: photojournalists are journalists, and why he's not a kinsanyerak photographer.

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Speaker 1: He's not a glamour shot photographer. It is not his

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Speaker 1: job to make her look her best. It is his

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Speaker 1: job to visually communicate the truth that was in that room,

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Speaker 1: which I think he did quite well.

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Speaker 2: Frankly, Yeah, I mean, clearly, it is the truth really

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Speaker 2: clearly her lips do have those many regular injection sites

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Speaker 2: along them. It's it's a disturbing photo, honestly, it's I mean,

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Speaker 2: you know, I guess you let off this segment saying

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Speaker 2: that people should feel free to get whatever cosmetic surgery

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Speaker 2: they want, and certainly they should, you know, but like

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Speaker 2: she didn't look good in that photo, kind of kind

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Speaker 2: of wonder about the choice.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's what I'm saying. I think the fact that

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Speaker 1: so many people who are in Trump's orbit make cosmetic

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Speaker 1: procedure choices that come off this way is worth talking about.

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Speaker 1: And just a day ago, the House passed a bill

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Speaker 1: criminalizing gender affirming care for miners, and I cannot not

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Speaker 1: see these things as related. Lip injections are gender affirming care.

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Speaker 1: I avail myself of gender affirming care. I'm sure plenty

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Speaker 1: of our listeners avail themselves of gender affirming care. People

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Speaker 1: in the Trump administration talk about the gender affirming care

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Speaker 1: that they make use of all the time, right, And

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Speaker 1: so I'm not going to play this game where we

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Speaker 1: don't talk about the fact that leave it is getting

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Speaker 1: lip injections as she should if that's her choice, while

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Speaker 1: making it so that miners, some of the most marginalized

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Speaker 1: and vulnerable among us cannot avail themselves of the gender

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Speaker 1: affirming care that they need, and let's not forget when

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Speaker 1: we're talking about transuse, oftentimes that care is life saving.

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Speaker 1: It is critical. And I think then expecting a dynamic

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Speaker 1: where the gender affirming care of others is endlessly scrutinized,

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Speaker 1: endlessly weaponized, but theirs it's not polite to even bring

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Speaker 1: up I won't have it. I won't have it. That's

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Speaker 1: not a dynamics that I think is one that will

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Speaker 1: serve us well. So while I understand where books are

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Speaker 1: coming from when they say it's not good to talk

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Speaker 1: about about her injections and her looks and all of that,

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Speaker 1: I totally get it. I think, ultimately, if you follow

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Speaker 1: that thread, while they are doing the exact same thing

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Speaker 1: to the most marginalized and vulnerable among us, they are

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Speaker 1: creating a dynamic where it's uncivilized for us to give

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Speaker 1: them any scrutiny. And the scrutiny they're getting is sorry,

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Speaker 1: your injection sites are visible on this photograph and vanity

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Speaker 1: fair like that. That's not even a criticism, it's just truth.

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Speaker 1: It's just reality. Of what's happening per our eyes. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it reminds me. I know, I told you about this.

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Speaker 1: I read this anecdote that Trump regularly will use scotch

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Speaker 1: tape to tape the small end to the big end

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Speaker 1: of his neckties, and then I googled it. Y'all, if

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Speaker 1: you google it, there's there's photographic evidence that he does,

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Speaker 1: in fact do this. I think there is something about

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Speaker 1: the idea when somebody who you're being told is like

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Speaker 1: a genius, is genetically superior all of these things, shows

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Speaker 1: up with their necktie scotch tape together in the White House,

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Speaker 1: and then it's like a test of whether or not

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Speaker 1: you're gonna say anything, or whether or not you're gonna

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Speaker 1: laugh at them, or whether or not you're gonna be like,

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Speaker 1: get a load of this guy. Like that's what I

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Speaker 1: feel like. We're asked. We're being asked to do. You

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Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, And I can't. There is nobody

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Speaker 1: in this world that I could see who I'm being

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Speaker 1: told is very important and more important than me and

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Speaker 1: smarter than me, if they showed up with their necktie

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Speaker 1: scotch tape together, that I would not be like, you

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Speaker 1: look you look like a moron right now? Do you

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Speaker 1: not see how you look?

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Speaker 2: That's so comical, just picturing like, actually, I don't even

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Speaker 2: have to picture it. Yeah, I could pull up the photos.

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Speaker 2: There they are. He's got tape holding his tie to itself.

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Speaker 2: It's it's like something a childish buffoon would do, or

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Speaker 2: rather a buffoonish child.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I just wanted to quickly mention a couple two

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Speaker 1: more things about the photographer who took these photos. So

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Speaker 1: he of all the people that he photographed, that Steven

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Speaker 1: Miller was sort of the most concerned about how he

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Speaker 1: was going to look. And he says that when they

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Speaker 1: were finished, Miller came up to me and said, you know,

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Speaker 1: you have a lot of power on the discretion you

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Speaker 1: used to be kind to someone in your photographs. Anderson recalled,

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Speaker 1: and I look at him and I said, you know

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Speaker 1: you do too. I don't know how much he related

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Speaker 1: to that. Anderson added, which I feel like says so

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Speaker 1: much that it's like I have power and how I

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Speaker 1: relate somebody in photography. So do you you have a

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Speaker 1: lot of power and discretion to be kind And the

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Speaker 1: fact that that was apparently lost on Stephen Miller, not

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Speaker 1: for nothing. He looks ghoulish in his.

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Speaker 2: Who nos, Yeah, but we knew that. I mean, of

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Speaker 2: course he's gonna look like a gool. He is a ghoul.

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Speaker 2: He regularly feasts on human flesh to nourish the dark

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Speaker 2: cravings within him. I mean, that's just that's just the

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Speaker 2: kind of guy Stephen Miller is, So of course he's

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Speaker 2: going to look awful.

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Speaker 1: I don't really have a seamless transition, but I just

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Speaker 1: came across this anecdote from Threads about the photographer who

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Speaker 1: took those pictures, and it really struck me. It's might

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Speaker 1: have to share. I found this from Derek guy who

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Speaker 1: you might know as Die Workwear on threads or on

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Speaker 1: social media. He says, in twenty twenty forty four Haitian

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Speaker 1: refugees boarded a small handmade boat they called Believe in

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Speaker 1: God and tried to set sail for the US. Somewhere

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Speaker 1: along the journey, the boat began to sink, but they

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Speaker 1: were rescued by the US Coast Guard. Toward the end,

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Speaker 1: some of the men were so dehydrated that they drifted

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Speaker 1: in and out of consciousness, unable to stand on that

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Speaker 1: boat was a magnum photographer Christopher Anderson, who twenty five

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Speaker 1: years later took a photo of Stephen Miller for Vanity Fair.

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Speaker 1: Andrewson took the photos in the final moments, when everyone

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Speaker 1: on the boat thought they were going to die. This

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Speaker 1: is what he had to say about that experience. Quote.

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Speaker 1: A couple of days into our journey, the boat began

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Speaker 1: to sink. We were doomed, and we knew it. We

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Speaker 1: started saying goodbye to one another. Strangely, it was quite

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Speaker 1: calm on the boat. There was not much to do

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Speaker 1: except resign oneself to the inevitability of it all. Up

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Speaker 1: to that point, I had not taken many pictures. Everyone

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Speaker 1: on the boat knew I was a photographer, but it

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Speaker 1: somehow had not felt right. It's difficult to explain. But

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Speaker 1: as the boat sank, David, the Haitian whom I'd followed

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Speaker 1: on this journey, said to me, Chris, you better start

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Speaker 1: making pictures. We only have an hour to live, and so,

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Speaker 1: without much thought, I began making pictures. We were saved

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Speaker 1: at the last moment by a US Coast Guard cutter.

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Speaker 1: That happened upon us, but that's another story. Much later

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Speaker 1: on back home safe, I've reflected on this question why

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Speaker 1: make pictures that no one will ever see. The only

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Speaker 1: explanation for me was that the act of photographing had

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Speaker 1: more to do with the explaining of the world to

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Speaker 1: myself than explaining something to someone else. The pictures were

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Speaker 1: about communicating something about my experience, not about reporting literal information.

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Speaker 1: This will be the single most transformative moment of my

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Speaker 1: photographic life.

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Speaker 2: Some pretty deep thoughts about photography.

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Speaker 1: I just wanted to share that because I think, especially

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Speaker 1: in the age of photoshop and air rushing an AI

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Speaker 1: and manicured images, it's just a good reminder of the

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Speaker 1: power of photographs and why we take photographs. And I

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Speaker 1: think the fact that these Vanity fair images got they

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Speaker 1: just they really struck a nerve and really struck a

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Speaker 1: cord with people, just shows how powerful they are and

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Speaker 1: the importance of having oppressed. It's not going to be afraid,

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Speaker 1: that's going to be fearless and not feel like they

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Speaker 1: have to communicate a lie when it's a medium about

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Speaker 1: communicating some larger truth, even if not in a literal sense.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that, you know, thinking about photography, and

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00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 2: I guess journalism writ large, but specifically photography as a

432
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:55,400
Speaker 2: tool for understanding the world and communicating truth. It's kind

433
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:56,040
Speaker 2: of beautiful.

434
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 3: Let's take a quick break at our back.

435
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 1: While on the flip side of the possible authenticity of media.

436
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 1: Let's talk about what's happening at my hometown paper, the

437
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,959
Speaker 1: Washington Post, owned by Amazon CEO Jeffrey Bezos, because they

438
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 1: are really continuing their race to the bottom, and this

439
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 1: time it's their podcasts. So semo four has this juicy

440
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:40,160
Speaker 1: report into what The Post is calling their quote, personalized

441
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 1: AI podcasts. Earlier this week, the Post that they were

442
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:47,440
Speaker 1: rolling out these personalized AI generated podcasts for their mobile app.

443
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,280
Speaker 1: The idea here is that using AI, listeners could pick

444
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,440
Speaker 1: their preferred topics and their preferred AI hosts and sort

445
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 1: of make their own podcasts. Quote, they could shape their

446
00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 1: own briefing, select their topics at their length, pick their

447
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 1: and soon even ask questions using ask the Post AI technology.

448
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,639
Speaker 1: And how is that going for the Post? In the

449
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 1: words of Derinda Medley from Real Housewives of New York,

450
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 1: can you guess.

451
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:16,160
Speaker 2: Not well, bitch, Not well, bitch?

452
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 1: This is from Semophor. Less than forty eight hours since

453
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 1: the product was released, people within the Post have flagged

454
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:26,639
Speaker 1: what four sources described as multiple mistakes in personalized podcasts.

455
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,399
Speaker 1: The errors have ranged from relatively minor pronunciation guests to

456
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 1: significant changes to story content like misattributing or inventing quotes

457
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:38,440
Speaker 1: and inserting commentary such as interpreting a source's quotes as

458
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:42,960
Speaker 1: the paper's position on an issue, even that journalists from

459
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 1: within the paper are cringing about this. According to four

460
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,679
Speaker 1: people familiar with the situation, the errors have alarmed senior

461
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 1: newsroom leaders, who have acknowledged in their internal Slack channel

462
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,359
Speaker 1: that the product's output is not living up to the

463
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,159
Speaker 1: papers standards. In a message to other staffer shared with Semaphor,

464
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,439
Speaker 1: head of Standard Karen Pincero, wrote that the errors have

465
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,879
Speaker 1: been frustrating for us all. It is truly astonishing that

466
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 1: this was ever allowed to go forward at all. One

467
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,360
Speaker 1: Post editor wrote on Flack. Never would I have imagined

468
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,159
Speaker 1: that the Post would deliberately warp its own journalism and

469
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,880
Speaker 1: then push these errors out to our audience at scale,

470
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 1: and just days after the White House put up a

471
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:22,120
Speaker 1: site dedicated to attacking journalists, most notably our own, including

472
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 1: for stories with corrections or editors notes attached. If we

473
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 1: were serious, we would pull this tool immediately. Yeah, pretty

474
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 1: big l for the Post and just being in the

475
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,679
Speaker 1: podcast sort of media game. I do know that The

476
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 1: Post has really been trying to compete with other papers

477
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 1: comparable size and stature when it comes to audio in particular,

478
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,159
Speaker 1: Like if you think about The New York Times, the

479
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:50,919
Speaker 1: Daily is one of the most important podcasts around, Like

480
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 1: it's one of the biggest, if not the biggest podcast

481
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 1: in the world. It's the podcast that a lot of

482
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 1: people start their day with. Wall Street Journal has a

483
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 1: really respected podcast division. The Post just it seems like

484
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 1: they're really struggling to get it right.

485
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I feel like trust in the Post is

486
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:10,399
Speaker 2: pretty low these days. It's just like one story after

487
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:14,399
Speaker 2: another diminishing their credibility honestly, Like, I know that they

488
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 2: have a lot of really good journalists who work there

489
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 2: in the news department still, and I feel for them,

490
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:25,159
Speaker 2: But every story that comes out about their editorial department

491
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:31,680
Speaker 2: is awful. And now there's this story about them pushing

492
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 2: AI slop that is not accurate. It's it's you bring

493
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 2: up a good point that, like, why do their competitors

494
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 2: have these really powerful, widely listens to audio products and

495
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 2: the Post doesn't. It feels like they're frankly like on

496
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 2: the wrong track. I guess, I don't know. They're probably

497
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 2: not taking like strategic business decisions from us, but like

498
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 2: it's just one l after another.

499
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I can sort of give you my

500
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 1: sense of what might be happening here. I just don't

501
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 1: think it's a really it's not a kill time in

502
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 1: media or journalism more broadly. And I want to be

503
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 1: super clear that I know personally and work with and

504
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 1: love many, many, many of the journalists at the Post.

505
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 1: They have great reputations. This is not anything against them.

506
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 1: It is the decision makers, it's the higher ups. It's

507
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 1: people like Jeffrey Bezos. I would argue that I don't

508
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 1: think that he had any real interest in being in

509
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 1: the newspaper game at all. I think that he bought

510
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 1: that paper to buy influence and to buy Trump's ear

511
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 1: And I don't think he cares that it's losing money.

512
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 1: I don't think he cares that it's putting out error

513
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 1: and lie riddled AI and generated podcasts, but are on

514
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 1: embarrassment that they're stellar journalists then have to answer for right,

515
00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 1: because you don't want to be a great journalist at

516
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 1: a that's putting out lies via AI generated podcast that's

517
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 1: so embarrassing, and so I think it really is a

518
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 1: leadership culture problem. I also think when you think about

519
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 1: you know, it came up in the episode that we

520
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 1: did with Karen Aatia, the last remaining black columnist at

521
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 1: The Post who was pushed out after Charlie Kirk's death,

522
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 1: I would say, like, completely unairly. I think that it's

523
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 1: a problem where when you have a culture that nobody

524
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 1: wants to be part of work for people who are

525
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 1: smart or dedicated, or hard working or forward thinking or

526
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 1: innovative are pushed out. I think this is what you're

527
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 1: left over with, right Like the former editor at The Post,

528
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 1: Sally Busby, she was apparently working on a lot of

529
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 1: early stage audio concepts before she was pushed out of

530
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 1: the paper in twenty twenty four. I think like this

531
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 1: is what happens when you push out the good people

532
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 1: who actually want to make good stuff. You have to

533
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 1: turn to AI podcasts full of errors and lies. But

534
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 1: it's such short sided leadership to not see how that's

535
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 1: so much worse It would be better to not have

536
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 1: a podcast.

537
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 2: In my opinion, yeah, it has the feel of leadership.

538
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 2: Viewing this as like news flavored content without recognizing the

539
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 2: special considerations that the journalism needs to adhere to to

540
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 2: make sure that readers and listeners trust it.

541
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 3: Yeah.

542
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 1: I mean we've talked about this, that audio is supposed

543
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 1: to build trust and intimacy. I think Pew did a

544
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 1: study that found that people who get information from podcasts

545
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 1: have a higher expectation that that information will be accurate

546
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 1: and true versus other kinds of digital content. So the

547
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 1: content and the media they're getting on social media, they

548
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 1: don't have a high expectation that that will be accurate,

549
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,600
Speaker 1: but when it comes to podcasts, they do, right. And

550
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 1: so if the post is just handing over that trust

551
00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 1: to AI so that it can invent quotes and make

552
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 1: up eyes, it's really a problem. And I think that's

553
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 1: what happens when experienced editors are like, nah, I don't

554
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:08,959
Speaker 1: want I don't want to be involved in this. I

555
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 1: also think there's an element here of news versus tech products.

556
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 1: Uh Cmophore had this little bit of reporting that I

557
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 1: found very interesting about the tensions that have arisen between

558
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 1: the newsroom division and its product division. Right, and so

559
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 1: the perspective from some of the Post product team is

560
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 1: that AI podcasts, even if they have errors, that just

561
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 1: represents a normal part of the rollout of features that

562
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 1: are still being tested, and unsurprisingly the journalists at that

563
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 1: newsroom feel otherwise.

564
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 2: That is really interesting and I could totally see see

565
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 2: that playing out, you know, for a newspaper that is

566
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 2: owned by Jeff Bezos, the owner of Amazon, which famously

567
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 2: works with some employees like really hard and is you know,

568
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 2: very folks on metrics. That works great. If you're running

569
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 2: a company that delivers products to people, and you know,

570
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 2: you make a few errors and some people, you know,

571
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 2: zero point zero one percent of people don't get their

572
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:22,239
Speaker 2: packages on time, it's not that big a deal. But

573
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 2: with a newspaper in journalism, the math is very different

574
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 2: because when you lose trust, it is really difficult to

575
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 2: gain back. Yeah, absolutely true. Side note.

576
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 1: Cmophore also did report as part of the story that

577
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 1: The Post was eyeing Larry Summers to be one of

578
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 1: their podcast hosts for a while, but that deal fell apart.

579
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 1: This was obviously before the emails unsurfaced about Summer's connection

580
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 1: with Epstein. Boy. Part of me is like, I don't

581
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 1: know if that was a decision to not go with

582
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 1: Larry summers as a podcast host or if that just

583
00:33:57,640 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 1: like didn't work out. But that kind of is like

584
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 1: a little bit of a saving grace that they didn't

585
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 1: have to pull that podcast down.

586
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess they dashed a bullet there.

587
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 3: Uh.

588
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's curious. And it's also curious that like, he

589
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 2: is a pretty big name, so they presumably would have

590
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,479
Speaker 2: had to pay him, as opposed to these AI podcasts, which,

591
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:23,439
Speaker 2: like you know, they're probably paying the engineers who work

592
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 2: on it, but they don't have to pay a host.

593
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 2: And I wonder if that's part of it here too,

594
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 2: just trying to turn the screws and do things on

595
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 2: the cheap, maybe question mark.

596
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 1: I know I'm biased, but throwing a few bucks at

597
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 1: a human host might be worth it if it's going

598
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 1: to save you from this level of embarrassment on paper.

599
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, human hosts wouldn't make these sorts of errors that

600
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 2: you listed off of misattributing the a quote from a

601
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 2: source as the official position of the paper, Like that's

602
00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:03,240
Speaker 2: a pretty elementary mistake that a human host probably would

603
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 2: not make. You would hope, you would.

604
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 1: Hope anyone who has listened to this pod will probably

605
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,880
Speaker 1: not be surprised to hear this that Meta is targeting

606
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 1: accounts related to abortion providers and queer identity. We did

607
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:18,279
Speaker 1: a whole episode about the scale of this kind of thing,

608
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 1: where Meta shadow bands or takes down or restricts content

609
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:26,280
Speaker 1: from accounts that provide medically accurate information about things like abortion,

610
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:29,799
Speaker 1: even in places where abortion is perfectly legal. But now

611
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 1: The Guardian has a new report from the organization Repro

612
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:36,759
Speaker 1: Uncensored that shows it is still an ongoing and escalating

613
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 1: issue with Meta. So Repro un Censored they track digital

614
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,880
Speaker 1: censorship against movements focus on gender health and justice, and

615
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 1: they said that they have tracked two hundred and ten

616
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 1: incidents of account removals and severe restrictions affecting these kinds

617
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 1: of groups in the last year, compared with just eighty

618
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,240
Speaker 1: one last year, So this does seem like an escalating problem.

619
00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:00,160
Speaker 1: Meta has removed or restricted dozens of accounts belong to

620
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 1: abortion access providers, queer groups and reproductive health organizations in

621
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 1: the past week, in what these campaigners call, quote one

622
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 1: of the biggest waves of censorship on Meta in years.

623
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 1: The takedowns and restrictions that they looked at started in

624
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,360
Speaker 1: October and targeted the Facebook Instagram and WhatsApp accounts of

625
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 1: more than fifty organizations worldwide, some of which serve tens

626
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 1: of thousands of people. Now, many of these groups are

627
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 1: in Europe or the UK. However, bands also effective groups

628
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 1: serving women in Asia, Latin America, and the Middle East.

629
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,400
Speaker 1: So given what we talked about in our previous episode

630
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 1: about this, it does seem that this is an escalating

631
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:40,720
Speaker 1: pattern with Meta. In this latest purge, it blocked abortion

632
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:44,440
Speaker 1: hotlines and countries where abortion is perfectly legal, banned queer

633
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 1: and sex positive accounts in Europe, and removed posts that

634
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:52,280
Speaker 1: even had non explicit cartoon depictions of nudity. I saw

635
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 1: one of the images that it removed. The post was

636
00:36:55,960 --> 00:37:00,359
Speaker 1: just a cartoon image of two naked people from behind

637
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 1: holding hands, and it would only the only nudity that

638
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 1: would have been shown is butts. However, the image, the

639
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 1: cartoon image has hearts over the butt, so it's like,

640
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 1: you can't there's not even really any nudity. That was

641
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:14,359
Speaker 1: the kind of image that Facebook said don't, Oh, that's

642
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 1: got to come down.

643
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 2: So this is like two different types of censorship, right,

644
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:25,880
Speaker 2: Like there's censorship of anything related to nudity. In what

645
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:30,880
Speaker 2: seems like a pretty prudish way. But then also censorship

646
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:39,799
Speaker 2: of conversation about abortion and other reproductive services, which, uh,

647
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 2: it's weird that that gets linked up with censorship of nudity.

648
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is weird, And I think it just goes

649
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:50,279
Speaker 1: to show how much tech leaders like Mark Zuckerberg, how

650
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 1: much power they have and determining what is the kind

651
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 1: of thing that needs to be censored and like who's

652
00:37:56,040 --> 00:38:00,880
Speaker 1: whose sexuality, whose gender issues whatever are oh hay and allowed,

653
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 1: and whose need to be taken down and centsored from

654
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 1: the platform. But they just like really have all the

655
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 1: power there. Martha de Moratu, the executive director of repro

656
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:12,280
Speaker 1: and Censored, told The Guardian. Within the last year, especially

657
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:15,320
Speaker 1: since this new US presidency, we have seen a definitive

658
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:17,759
Speaker 1: increase in accounts being taken down, not only in the

659
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:20,759
Speaker 1: US but worldwide as a ripple effect. This has been,

660
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 1: to my knowledge, at least one of the biggest waves

661
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 1: of censorship we are seeing. So I want to make

662
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 1: sure that people get what I'm saying here, because keep

663
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 1: this in mind. If we are talking about organizations that

664
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:35,400
Speaker 1: are abortion providers or help connect people who meet abortions

665
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 1: with abortion services, social media is a key way that

666
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 1: people are able to get access to information about something

667
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 1: that is not only life saving and critical, but also

668
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:49,920
Speaker 1: time sensitive. Arbitrary takedowns like this threatened the ability of

669
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,400
Speaker 1: these kind of providers to do their jobs, which is critical.

670
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 1: And you know something else that they said, and the

671
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 1: piece is that Meta is a company that is historically

672
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 1: not easy to work with. They will take down accounts

673
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:03,960
Speaker 1: that have not broken any of Meta's rules. They will

674
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 1: take down accounts that are not breaking in the law,

675
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:09,239
Speaker 1: and then they won't be transparent or clear on what

676
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 1: the thing was that got that account removed, or what

677
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:13,799
Speaker 1: to do next or how to appeal. So really, if

678
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:15,920
Speaker 1: you don't know somebody who works at Meta, if you

679
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:17,640
Speaker 1: don't have a friend or a cousin that works there,

680
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,920
Speaker 1: you might just be out of luck. There's one organization

681
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 1: that they talk about from the Netherlands called Women Help Women,

682
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 1: which is a nonprofit offering information about abortion to women worldwide,

683
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 1: including in Brazil, the Philippines and Poland. It feels about

684
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty thousand emails from women each year,

685
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:37,759
Speaker 1: says the executive director, Kinga Jalinska. Women Help Women has

686
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 1: been on Facebook for eleven years, and they said that

687
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 1: while their account has been suspended before, this time around

688
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:46,719
Speaker 1: it was outright banded. Kinga, the executive director, said this

689
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:49,839
Speaker 1: band could be life threatening and push people who need

690
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:54,839
Speaker 1: abortion care toward dangerous, less reliable information sources. And the

691
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 1: frustrating thing is that Meta doesn't even really tell people

692
00:39:57,640 --> 00:39:59,880
Speaker 1: what they've done to get banned. A message from Me

693
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 1: to the group, dated November thirteenth said that its page

694
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 1: does not follow our community standards on prescription drugs, adding

695
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:08,440
Speaker 1: we know this is disappointing, but we want to keep

696
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:12,279
Speaker 1: Facebook safe and welcoming for everyone. The report then says

697
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:14,919
Speaker 1: that the providers who are impacted have to go into

698
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 1: meetings with Meta. I've personally been at meetings like this

699
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 1: and they are basically useless. This is from The Guardian.

700
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 1: Meta has come under criticism after a leaked email showed

701
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 1: a consultant inviting reproductive health organizations to a private briefing

702
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:32,239
Speaker 1: about problems with Meta's content moderation, while explicitly saying the

703
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 1: meeting was not a place to criticize the company or

704
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:38,840
Speaker 1: suggest any policy changes. Critics say these closed door sessions

705
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:42,839
Speaker 1: reinforce a power imbalance where big techicides which voices are

706
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:47,799
Speaker 1: heard and which are silenced. I can personally confirm my

707
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 1: own experience in these meetings, and Meta is exactly what's

708
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:52,720
Speaker 1: going on, and it speaks to what I was saying earlier,

709
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 1: where Meta is the sole arbiter of whose voices are

710
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 1: allowed to persist on the platform and who are silence,

711
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 1: and they don't feel they need to give anybody transparency

712
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 1: around that.

713
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 2: I'm really reminded of the segment we just covered about

714
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:09,920
Speaker 2: the Washington Post, where there's just a real sense of

715
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:16,759
Speaker 2: them like not realizing or not acknowledging the responsibility that

716
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:21,880
Speaker 2: they have as a big platform where so many people

717
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 2: get information that is of critical importance to like their health,

718
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 2: their financial well being, so many areas of their life.

719
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 2: They're just like not concerned with making arbitrary decisions that

720
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 2: prevent people from getting that information. You know, in Meta's case,

721
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 2: they just want the clicks. I think.

722
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 1: Let me tell you how not concerned they are. They

723
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 1: told one organization that was impacted that they should leave

724
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:57,279
Speaker 1: Meta altogether and start a mailing list and that their

725
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 1: bands would probably continue. Now Meta deny sending that email,

726
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:04,319
Speaker 1: but imagine telling an organization doing critical life saving work

727
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 1: connecting people who need abortions with abortion care. But you've

728
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:09,719
Speaker 1: built up an audience for years and years, just start

729
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 1: a mailing list like these are not serious people.

730
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 2: No, they're certainly not taking the concerns of these organizations seriously,

731
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 2: which is pretty offensive really because if you like, I

732
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 2: don't know any of these organizations, but I feel like

733
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 2: I've known people at similar organizations who've done this kind

734
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 2: of work, and people involved in nonprofits that serve people.

735
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 2: They're not getting rich out there, They're trying to help people.

736
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 2: And it is really disappointing but not at all surprising

737
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 2: to read a report like this about Meta just not

738
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 2: being at all concerned about getting in the way of

739
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:56,759
Speaker 2: their work.

740
00:42:57,239 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 1: And as someone who has followed this kind of thing

741
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:01,520
Speaker 1: for a while, away weird thing that Meta loves to

742
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 1: do is say that they do allow posts about abortion

743
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 1: on their platform as long as those posts don't break

744
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:10,239
Speaker 1: the rules, But then they take down accounts that are

745
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 1: not breaking the rules, and they don't even say why

746
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 1: because according to Meta, even they agree that some of

747
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 1: these accounts are taken down by mistake because when repro

748
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 1: uncensored flagged some of the accounts that they said were

749
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 1: taken down that should not have been. Meta said that

750
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:27,880
Speaker 1: more than half of the accounts flagged by repro and

751
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 1: censored have been reinstated, including Women Help Women, which Facebook

752
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:36,400
Speaker 1: said was taken down an error. So basically, you know,

753
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:39,279
Speaker 1: they like to say, on the one hand, oh, we

754
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 1: allow posts about abortion, why were these posts about abortion

755
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:44,880
Speaker 1: taken down? Even though they don't violate our policies. That

756
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:47,800
Speaker 1: was a mistake. It's been reinstated. But if that mistake happens,

757
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 1: there is no transparency around why it was taken down

758
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 1: unless there's some sort of uproar, unless somebody flags it

759
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 1: for them. And then two, it's incredibly difficult to appeal it.

760
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 1: And so even if these are a miss it's not

761
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 1: a mistake that can be easily rectified If there's no clear,

762
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 1: transparent appeal process, it just seems like Meta doesn't actually

763
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:10,680
Speaker 1: really care. And I think, you know, whether it's a

764
00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:13,719
Speaker 1: mistake or an error or whatever, the impact really is

765
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 1: the same that these platforms have total control over these

766
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 1: digital public spaces arbitrarily, and that ends up silencing abortion

767
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:25,960
Speaker 1: providers and queer organizations and really put people at risk

768
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 1: from being able to access time sensitive light saving information,

769
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 1: and I think having a system where there's no transparency,

770
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 1: there's no functioning appeal process. I don't think these are glitches.

771
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 1: I think that they are structural problems that are built in,

772
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:48,719
Speaker 1: and it's vulnerable people who are paying the price. More.

773
00:44:48,719 --> 00:45:06,959
Speaker 1: After a quick break, let's get right back into it. Okay, So, Mike,

774
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 1: do you remember back when Charlie Kirk was murdered and

775
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 1: we talked all about the wave of crackdowns on free

776
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:16,840
Speaker 1: speech and expression that followed.

777
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:21,200
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean I feel like we're still living

778
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:26,840
Speaker 2: through the repercussions of that crackdown on speech.

779
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:29,719
Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you so. Back when Charlie Kirk

780
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 1: was first murdered, Larry Bushart, who was a sixty one

781
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 1: year old former cop, posted a meme on the Facebook

782
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:39,239
Speaker 1: group What's Happening in Perry County, Tennessee. He posted this

783
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:42,960
Speaker 1: meme on a thread about a visual for Charlie Kirk. So,

784
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:46,720
Speaker 1: the meme shows a picture of Donald Trump saying quote,

785
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:49,720
Speaker 1: we should just get over it, which depicted Trump saying

786
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:52,360
Speaker 1: this about a school shooting at Perry High School, which

787
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 1: is a direct quote he actually did say that. Bush

788
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 1: Art included that image with a comment that said this

789
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 1: seems relevant today. Dot dot dot. That is literally all

790
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 1: it took to land Larry in prison for thirty seven

791
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 1: days because he was unable to make his two million

792
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 1: dollar bail. He got out of prison in late October.

793
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:23,960
Speaker 2: Wow, that escalated quickly. Wait, so what was he arrested for?

794
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:27,840
Speaker 1: According to the intercept, that post got the attention of

795
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:31,280
Speaker 1: the Perry County Sheriff, Nick Wems, who I should add

796
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:35,040
Speaker 1: had mourned Kirk's passing on his own personal Facebook page.

797
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:39,319
Speaker 1: This is from ours Tetnica. Supposedly, Weens's decision to go

798
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 1: after Buschhart wasn't due to his political views, but to

799
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:46,960
Speaker 1: receiving messages from parents who misread Buschard's post as possibly

800
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:49,760
Speaker 1: threatening an attack on the local Perry County High School.

801
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 1: To pressure Buschart to remove the post, Weings contacted the

802
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:57,360
Speaker 1: Lexingon Police department to find Buschart. That led to Larry's

803
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:02,240
Speaker 1: arrest and his transfer to Perry p jail. So Weims,

804
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:06,200
Speaker 1: the sheriff justified the arrest by claiming that Buschart posting

805
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:10,360
Speaker 1: this meme on Facebook represented a true threat, since quote

806
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:13,960
Speaker 1: investigators believed that Buschart was fully aware the fear his

807
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 1: post would cause and intentionally sought to create hysteria within

808
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:22,279
Speaker 1: the community, The Tennessean reported, But as the intercept points out,

809
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:25,000
Speaker 1: there was no evidence of any kind of hysteria. There

810
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:28,400
Speaker 1: weren't even any comments on the meme that suggested that

811
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:31,879
Speaker 1: anybody thought it was anything resembling a threat. And that's

812
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:33,839
Speaker 1: when people started to look a little bit closer at

813
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 1: this sheriff's story. Probably the most suspicious thing here is

814
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 1: that weems The sheriff claims that Buschart had callously refused

815
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:44,279
Speaker 1: to take down his post even after law enforcement told

816
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 1: him that people were scared that he was threatening a

817
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:51,680
Speaker 1: school shooting. They actually the local news has bodycam footage

818
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:55,000
Speaker 1: of his arrest. The footage clearly shows that the arresting

819
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 1: officer did not understand why the Perry County sheriff had

820
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 1: taken issue with Buschart's Facebook post. He says, so, I'm

821
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:04,319
Speaker 1: just going to be completely honest with you. I really

822
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:07,239
Speaker 1: have no idea what they are talking about. He he

823
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 1: just called me and there was some concerning post that

824
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:13,240
Speaker 1: was made. Bushart clarified that it was likely his Facebook post,

825
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 1: laughing at the notion that somebody called the cops to

826
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:19,440
Speaker 1: report his meme. The officer then told busch Art that

827
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 1: he wasn't exactly sure what Facebook posts that you're referring to,

828
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:26,279
Speaker 1: but they said something about insinuating violence. Bushart said, no,

829
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:28,399
Speaker 1: it wasn't and confirming that he wasn't going to take

830
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:32,279
Speaker 1: it down. The arresting officer declined to even glance at

831
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 1: the Facebook post and told Buschhart quote, I don't care.

832
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:39,399
Speaker 1: This ain't got nothing to do with me now. None

833
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:42,399
Speaker 1: of this indifference kept to this officer from taking him

834
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:45,319
Speaker 1: into custody and booking him where he was charged under

835
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:47,759
Speaker 1: a state law passed in July twenty twenty fours that

836
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:50,239
Speaker 1: makes it a Class E felony to make any kind

837
00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:52,960
Speaker 1: of threat against schools. This is reporting from the Tennessee in.

838
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:56,799
Speaker 2: Wow, they're really like making a meal out of this

839
00:48:56,960 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 2: threat against the school thing, which seems to be completely

840
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:04,279
Speaker 2: made up, Like this just seems to be Is this

841
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:06,160
Speaker 2: a new thing that cops make up when they want

842
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:08,360
Speaker 2: to arrest somebody like, oh, he was threatening to school.

843
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:10,600
Speaker 1: Well, here's how we know it was made up, because

844
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:13,400
Speaker 1: the sheriff later admitted to the local news new Channel

845
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:17,160
Speaker 1: five that quote, investigators knew the meme was not about

846
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:22,040
Speaker 1: Perry County High School and still arrested him anyway, supposedly

847
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:25,279
Speaker 1: hoping to quote quell the fears of people in the

848
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:29,799
Speaker 1: community who misrepresented it. Apparently that was as close as

849
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:33,680
Speaker 1: the sheriff came to basically admitting that the intention was

850
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:38,040
Speaker 1: to censor the post. So now Larry Buschhard is out

851
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:41,120
Speaker 1: of prison, he has lost his post retirement job, and

852
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:44,360
Speaker 1: now he is suing the police department. Now, the department

853
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:47,240
Speaker 1: said that he had to be arrested because this post

854
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:50,760
Speaker 1: caused all this mass hysteria from people who were worried

855
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:53,680
Speaker 1: they were misinterpreting this post as a threat of violence

856
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:56,600
Speaker 1: against Perry High School with this meme. But his lawsuit

857
00:49:56,719 --> 00:49:59,960
Speaker 1: notes that none of the commenters on the Facebook thread

858
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:02,600
Speaker 1: and left any kind of comment indicating that this meme

859
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:05,520
Speaker 1: was being taken as threatening some sort of violent act

860
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:09,879
Speaker 1: at a school, and so far, no public records show

861
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:13,640
Speaker 1: any concerned citizens who were flagging the meme as violating

862
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:16,760
Speaker 1: any laws protecting schools. Our question of the school district

863
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:19,239
Speaker 1: turned up no records, and so far police have not

864
00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:23,919
Speaker 1: produced any evidence of this mass hysteria that they said

865
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:26,480
Speaker 1: was the reason that he had to be arrested. This

866
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 1: is all according to Larry Buschard's lawsuit. Instead, what they

867
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:32,480
Speaker 1: say is actually going on is a sheriff who we

868
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:34,720
Speaker 1: know posted a tribute to Kirk on his own personal

869
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:38,080
Speaker 1: Facebook page, was just using his capacity as sheriff to

870
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:42,560
Speaker 1: arrest Larry over a meme that he didn't like about Trump.

871
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:45,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, that seems to be what's going on. You know,

872
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:49,319
Speaker 2: this mass hysteria that the sheriff keeps talking about. I

873
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:52,480
Speaker 2: feel like you needed Like the term nesisteria implies a

874
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:54,919
Speaker 2: lot of people. If you had to guess, how many

875
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:57,759
Speaker 2: people did you say live in Perry County, Tennessee?

876
00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:01,919
Speaker 1: Oh god, I will.

877
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:04,000
Speaker 2: How do you know, Well, I just looked it up

878
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:06,799
Speaker 2: while you were reading that segment. In twenty twenty three,

879
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:11,520
Speaker 2: there were eighty five hundred people in Perry County, Tennessee. So, like,

880
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:15,560
Speaker 2: I feel this whole story is like these two guys

881
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:18,400
Speaker 2: know each other for one thing, Like the sheriff knows

882
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:21,279
Speaker 2: this cop. This is not their first time talking. The

883
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:25,319
Speaker 2: arresting officer knows both of them. Yeah, I am so

884
00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:29,640
Speaker 2: sure that. Like, this story is so much juicier and

885
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:35,000
Speaker 2: more interesting, just like the small town dynamics that are

886
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:39,319
Speaker 2: at play here. I feel like we are just scratching

887
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 2: the surface of this story. And as somebody who grew

888
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:50,160
Speaker 2: up in a small town, I really feel for Bouchard,

889
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:54,560
Speaker 2: the guy who got arrested here, who it seems like

890
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:58,920
Speaker 2: acted perfectly within his rights to make some political speech

891
00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:02,239
Speaker 2: that does not seem like it was threatening anyone, and

892
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:06,640
Speaker 2: then has to go through this whole radiar role of

893
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:10,239
Speaker 2: spending thirty seven days in jail, which probably was not

894
00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:12,960
Speaker 2: super fun for him as an ex cop, right Like

895
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:17,640
Speaker 2: I I couldn't say, but my understanding is that like X,

896
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:19,920
Speaker 2: cops don't have a great time when they're in jail,

897
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:23,960
Speaker 2: especially like older guys who you know, he was retired.

898
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 2: But I gotta say good on him for standing his

899
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:34,120
Speaker 2: ground for the First Amendment against this extremely anti American censorship.

900
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:37,040
Speaker 1: I'm so glad that you brought the context of someone

901
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 1: who grew up in a small town. Side note, do

902
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:41,040
Speaker 1: you remember that time that we were in a small

903
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:44,600
Speaker 1: town and there was somebody who was from the town

904
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:47,960
Speaker 1: and we were we watched like someone go riding by

905
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:50,960
Speaker 1: in their car and they said, Oh, that's that teenager

906
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:53,560
Speaker 1: who's always up and down Main Street in his hot rod.

907
00:52:53,719 --> 00:52:55,719
Speaker 1: And I was like, wow, this guy knew exactly who

908
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:57,520
Speaker 1: that was just from the make and model of their

909
00:52:57,560 --> 00:52:59,160
Speaker 1: car and how they were driving, and you were like,

910
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:02,120
Speaker 1: welcome to a small town. Welcome to a small town.

911
00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:06,520
Speaker 1: Like you know, you have it, you have specific nemesis

912
00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:08,360
Speaker 1: and their car and you know it just by the

913
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:09,359
Speaker 1: sound of it.

914
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:13,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, you you know everyone who lives in the town,

915
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:15,719
Speaker 2: because there's just not a lot of you. It's a

916
00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:16,600
Speaker 2: different way to live.

917
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:19,439
Speaker 1: So this you are right that the story does get

918
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:21,560
Speaker 1: kind of wilder. And I'm sure there's juicy stuff that

919
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:24,400
Speaker 1: we don't even know because according to his lawsuit, Larry

920
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:27,319
Speaker 1: says that the sheriff colluded with another investigator to be

921
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:32,239
Speaker 1: able to arrest Larry. To get Larry jailed, Wems allegedly

922
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:35,719
Speaker 1: collaborated with an investigator, Jason Morrow, to emit a key

923
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:39,120
Speaker 1: detail from the Affiday that served as the entire basis

924
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:42,080
Speaker 1: of his arrest. Moro supposedly left out the fact that

925
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:44,640
Speaker 1: the meme referred to a twenty twenty four school shooting,

926
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:49,879
Speaker 1: allegedly helping Wems manufacture probable cause. Including that detail would

927
00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:53,960
Speaker 1: have made Larry's arrest less likely. As a reviewing magistrate

928
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:56,520
Speaker 1: who was a non lawyer who has no legal education

929
00:53:56,920 --> 00:53:58,960
Speaker 1: would have possibly understood that they were just trying to

930
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:03,880
Speaker 1: arrest Larry for protected speech. His complaint reads, so shout

931
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:06,640
Speaker 1: out to Larry, like you said, for standing up for

932
00:54:06,719 --> 00:54:10,000
Speaker 1: free speech. Larry's legal teams got in touch with us

933
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 1: and they send us a press release where it has

934
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:15,000
Speaker 1: this quote from Larry says, I spent over three decades

935
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:18,000
Speaker 1: in law enforcement and have the utmost respect for the law.

936
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:20,239
Speaker 1: But I also know my rights. I know that's right,

937
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:23,040
Speaker 1: and I was arrested for nothing more than refusing to

938
00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:27,960
Speaker 1: be bullied into censorship his legal team. One of his

939
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:31,080
Speaker 1: attorneys for his legal team, Fire attorney David Ribbin, says,

940
00:54:31,239 --> 00:54:34,000
Speaker 1: this lawsuit goes way beyond Larry. It's about making sure

941
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:37,440
Speaker 1: police everywhere understand that they cannot punish or intimidate people

942
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:41,760
Speaker 1: for sharing controversial opinions online. Law enforcement across the country

943
00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:44,680
Speaker 1: should be on notice respect the First Amendment or prepare

944
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:47,800
Speaker 1: to face the consequences. And another one of his attorneys

945
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:51,240
Speaker 1: from Fire, which is the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression, said,

946
00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:52,719
Speaker 1: if the police can come to your door in the

947
00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:54,960
Speaker 1: middle of the night and put you behind bars based

948
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:58,080
Speaker 1: on nothing more than an entirely false and contrived interpretation

949
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:01,280
Speaker 1: of a Facebook post, No one's First Amendment rights are safe.

950
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:03,200
Speaker 1: And I really agree with that that it's really not

951
00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:07,160
Speaker 1: just about Larry or this post. It's about whether or

952
00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:11,880
Speaker 1: not a sheriff who likes Charlie Kirk can take umbrage

953
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:16,120
Speaker 1: with your perfectly legally protected Facebook post and come arrest

954
00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:16,480
Speaker 1: you for.

955
00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:19,880
Speaker 2: A month, totally, And that was the whole Such a

956
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:23,920
Speaker 2: big part of the fallout from Charlie Kirk's murder was

957
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:29,279
Speaker 2: the right you know, in my opinion, really overstepping in

958
00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:35,840
Speaker 2: trying to use it as an opportunity to shut down

959
00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:41,320
Speaker 2: any speech that they didn't like. And I'm really grateful

960
00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:46,680
Speaker 2: to Larry, who I don't know, for standing up and

961
00:55:48,239 --> 00:55:53,440
Speaker 2: you know, not backing down here. I hope that sheriff

962
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:57,640
Speaker 2: like faces some sort of consequences for this. What I

963
00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:02,000
Speaker 2: think is unfortunate and more likely is that he probably won't,

964
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:08,640
Speaker 2: and instead Larry will win his lawsuit and the taxpayers

965
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:12,239
Speaker 2: of that county will be on the hook to pay

966
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:18,520
Speaker 2: for that sheriff's illegal actions of arresting somebody who said

967
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:19,520
Speaker 2: something that he didn't like.

968
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:21,000
Speaker 1: I fear that you are right.

969
00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:25,680
Speaker 3: More.

970
00:56:25,719 --> 00:56:43,280
Speaker 1: After a quick break, let's get right back into it okay,

971
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:48,759
Speaker 1: so really quickly, I just started watching this show he did, Rivalry,

972
00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:51,319
Speaker 1: and I wanted to talk about it because as I

973
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:53,160
Speaker 1: know that, you know, a while back, I was part

974
00:56:53,160 --> 00:56:55,799
Speaker 1: of a team trying to pitch a documentary project and

975
00:56:56,480 --> 00:56:58,799
Speaker 1: it was unsuccessful, but that is still very much a

976
00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:02,440
Speaker 1: goal of mine. It's my dream to produce a documentary project.

977
00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:04,399
Speaker 1: I met with all of the big streamers, and even

978
00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:07,120
Speaker 1: though it did not result in a project being greenlit,

979
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:09,440
Speaker 1: it was super interesting and it was a process in

980
00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:11,560
Speaker 1: which I learned a ton And one of the things

981
00:57:11,600 --> 00:57:14,399
Speaker 1: I learned is that there is a rising interest in

982
00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:18,400
Speaker 1: movies and shows that people can watch essentially while they

983
00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:21,840
Speaker 1: do something else, essentially be on their phone. Weirdly, I

984
00:57:21,920 --> 00:57:24,000
Speaker 1: will sort of say, this kind of works for the

985
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:27,560
Speaker 1: medium that I'm interested in making. You know, documentary might

986
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:31,360
Speaker 1: kind of work without having to visually see what's happening

987
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:36,120
Speaker 1: on screen. But apparently this also goes for non documentary projects.

988
00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:39,600
Speaker 1: So like fictional television and movie projects too, justice assumption

989
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:42,040
Speaker 1: that people are not going to be paying close attention

990
00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:45,080
Speaker 1: to whatever this thing is that they're watching. They might

991
00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:47,960
Speaker 1: not even be watching what's happening on screen, So make

992
00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:52,320
Speaker 1: projects that work for people who are watching them distracted.

993
00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:56,720
Speaker 2: Just really embrace the ad D brain that all of

994
00:57:56,800 --> 00:58:00,960
Speaker 2: us have that is being actively cultivated by social media.

995
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:04,320
Speaker 1: Have you ever seen that thing where it's the movie Oppenheimer,

996
00:58:04,360 --> 00:58:07,400
Speaker 1: but in one corner it's got like somebody playing Mario Karr,

997
00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:10,280
Speaker 1: Like all the different kind of distracting things that some

998
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:13,120
Speaker 1: people might need to focus on the screen just to

999
00:58:13,280 --> 00:58:17,880
Speaker 1: keep them locked in. In En Plus one magazine, film

1000
00:58:17,920 --> 00:58:21,200
Speaker 1: writer William Tavlin said the exact same thing that screenwriters

1001
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:23,880
Speaker 1: who worked for Netflix told him that a common note

1002
00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:26,360
Speaker 1: that they were given by the company's executives was have

1003
00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:29,320
Speaker 1: this character announce what they're doing so that the viewers

1004
00:58:29,320 --> 00:58:32,280
Speaker 1: who have this program on in the background can follow along.

1005
00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:35,680
Speaker 1: So if a character is like writing a text message,

1006
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:38,200
Speaker 1: even if what they're writing is being shown on the screen,

1007
00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:41,520
Speaker 1: have them say out loud what that message says. I

1008
00:58:41,560 --> 00:58:45,200
Speaker 1: actually hate this kind of exposition. And when I'm watching

1009
00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:48,200
Speaker 1: something where I know that they're doing now, or they're

1010
00:58:48,200 --> 00:58:51,560
Speaker 1: they're saying something out loud that you wouldn't ordinarily say

1011
00:58:51,560 --> 00:58:54,320
Speaker 1: out loud, it just is very distracting to me. I

1012
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:54,640
Speaker 1: hate it.

1013
00:58:54,720 --> 00:58:58,040
Speaker 2: Oh, it's so clunky. I always notice it, or at

1014
00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:01,160
Speaker 2: least I feel like I do, and I always hate it.

1015
00:59:01,160 --> 00:59:06,760
Speaker 2: It like takes the the axiom show me, don't tell me,

1016
00:59:07,160 --> 00:59:10,080
Speaker 2: and just completely inverts it, and it's like, Nah, don't

1017
00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:12,960
Speaker 2: even bother with showing. Just tell. Everything must be told,

1018
00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:14,440
Speaker 2: Just tell, just tell.

1019
00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:19,480
Speaker 1: I mean, I do have a whole slate of stuff

1020
00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:22,280
Speaker 1: that I have on my Hulu or whatever that I

1021
00:59:23,560 --> 00:59:26,520
Speaker 1: I do kind of treat as background. You know, a

1022
00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:28,720
Speaker 1: lot of Bravo content that I've that it's sort of

1023
00:59:28,760 --> 00:59:31,600
Speaker 1: comfort viewing. I'll put it on the iPad while I

1024
00:59:31,640 --> 00:59:34,600
Speaker 1: clean my apartment or do laundry or do kind of

1025
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:38,080
Speaker 1: like work that you can do half paying attention, like

1026
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:41,560
Speaker 1: menial tasks. So I'm not above this, but for an

1027
00:59:41,600 --> 00:59:44,640
Speaker 1: actual show that you're watching for the first time, I'm

1028
00:59:44,640 --> 00:59:46,040
Speaker 1: the kind of person who I like to be locked

1029
00:59:46,040 --> 00:59:48,680
Speaker 1: in for the most part. So this piece and slash

1030
00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:52,480
Speaker 1: film is breaking down Heated Rivalry, which I don't know

1031
00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:53,880
Speaker 1: if I don't know if you have been watching it,

1032
00:59:53,920 --> 00:59:56,760
Speaker 1: but it's this hockey romance, and the piece is really

1033
00:59:56,760 --> 01:00:01,000
Speaker 1: fascinating to me because it says that Heated Rivalry is

1034
01:00:01,080 --> 01:00:06,040
Speaker 1: essentially fucking this trend by being a show that rewards

1035
01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:10,240
Speaker 1: people carefully watching what's happening on screen, and it's working

1036
01:00:10,320 --> 01:00:13,560
Speaker 1: because it's actually super popular. So He and Rivalry is

1037
01:00:13,680 --> 01:00:19,160
Speaker 1: like this steamy hockey romance where two major league hockey

1038
01:00:19,200 --> 01:00:22,040
Speaker 1: stars have a sports rivalry but also a lot of

1039
01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:26,640
Speaker 1: kind a sexy tension. This is from Slash Film. When

1040
01:00:26,720 --> 01:00:30,760
Speaker 1: Isla realizes Shane has forgotten his water bottle, he silently

1041
01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:34,160
Speaker 1: offers his own. Isla dangles the bottle in front of Shane,

1042
01:00:34,240 --> 01:00:36,600
Speaker 1: letting their fingers graze in a way that appears to

1043
01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:40,120
Speaker 1: be anything but accidental. Shane tips the water into his

1044
01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:42,840
Speaker 1: mouth without letting the bottle touch his lips, and Ila

1045
01:00:42,960 --> 01:00:48,640
Speaker 1: watches him, absorbing every subtle tick more Isla mouths barely audible,

1046
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:52,480
Speaker 1: and Shane obeys instantly. The camera catches the moment just

1047
01:00:52,560 --> 01:00:55,560
Speaker 1: above Shane's arm, half of Eylah's face lit by the

1048
01:00:55,600 --> 01:00:58,720
Speaker 1: white of Shane's long sleeved t shirt. His whispered command

1049
01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:01,440
Speaker 1: lies in plain sight for anyone not glued to their phone.

1050
01:01:02,360 --> 01:01:06,400
Speaker 1: So a lot of the sort of steamy stuff that's

1051
01:01:06,440 --> 01:01:09,560
Speaker 1: happening you really have to be paying attention to see.

1052
01:01:09,600 --> 01:01:12,680
Speaker 1: There's also all kinds of like micro expressions and like

1053
01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:15,960
Speaker 1: lingering looks and text messages that are typed and shown

1054
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:19,520
Speaker 1: on screen but not vocally narrated. So all of the

1055
01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:23,480
Speaker 1: hallmarks of steamy will they won't they? Romance? You have

1056
01:01:23,560 --> 01:01:25,720
Speaker 1: to see it to really appreciate what's going on. You

1057
01:01:25,760 --> 01:01:27,600
Speaker 1: wouldn't fully get it if you were on your phone

1058
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:30,320
Speaker 1: or like do like doing your laundry or something.

1059
01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:34,120
Speaker 2: That's interesting, And it's interesting with the subjects matter too,

1060
01:01:34,160 --> 01:01:38,800
Speaker 2: where I haven't been watching the show, but I do

1061
01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:44,200
Speaker 2: enjoy hockey, and I feel like two players who had

1062
01:01:44,720 --> 01:01:50,520
Speaker 2: sexual tension between them would probably feel pressure to not

1063
01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:54,440
Speaker 2: be super overt about being loud and noticeable about that

1064
01:01:54,680 --> 01:02:00,600
Speaker 2: on the ice, and so I wonder I like the

1065
01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:03,280
Speaker 2: fact that the viewer of the show needs to like

1066
01:02:03,320 --> 01:02:06,320
Speaker 2: pay close attention to note these things, otherwise they would

1067
01:02:06,320 --> 01:02:12,919
Speaker 2: be missed if it creates a similar vibe to what's

1068
01:02:12,960 --> 01:02:14,480
Speaker 2: going on between the characters.

1069
01:02:14,760 --> 01:02:17,480
Speaker 1: Yes, as you know, one of my favorite themes in

1070
01:02:17,600 --> 01:02:21,760
Speaker 1: film and media generally like books as well, is homo

1071
01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:27,439
Speaker 1: erotic undertones and homo erotic tension. And it's not it's

1072
01:02:27,480 --> 01:02:30,720
Speaker 1: not a homo erotic undertone if it's like I am

1073
01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:33,600
Speaker 1: putting my hand on your sigh now, I'm moving the

1074
01:02:33,680 --> 01:02:36,440
Speaker 1: hand up now like it's it's it's it doesn't work.

1075
01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:39,080
Speaker 2: The same way, you know, looking at you, Saltburn.

1076
01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:43,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that you that you referenced that, because

1077
01:02:43,400 --> 01:02:45,840
Speaker 1: actually our producer Joey, we had a whole conversation about

1078
01:02:45,840 --> 01:02:48,760
Speaker 1: this before I had seen it. And my favorite ever movie,

1079
01:02:49,000 --> 01:02:51,240
Speaker 1: I guess is the talented mister Ripley. And the reason

1080
01:02:51,280 --> 01:02:53,120
Speaker 1: why I like it is because it's so subtle, right,

1081
01:02:53,200 --> 01:02:56,880
Speaker 1: like subtle looks of like like lingering lingering looks and

1082
01:02:56,880 --> 01:03:00,400
Speaker 1: things like that. I love the subtlety. Saltburn is like, Okay,

1083
01:03:00,400 --> 01:03:02,920
Speaker 1: I'm struggling here because I can't think of anything that's

1084
01:03:02,920 --> 01:03:06,040
Speaker 1: not a spoiler or like really graphic. Just trust me

1085
01:03:06,120 --> 01:03:08,040
Speaker 1: what I say. There's not a lot of subtly in

1086
01:03:08,040 --> 01:03:08,920
Speaker 1: the movie, Saltburn.

1087
01:03:09,080 --> 01:03:11,040
Speaker 2: It's a fun movie, but they're just they're just not

1088
01:03:11,280 --> 01:03:14,280
Speaker 2: doing that. You know, you you could be on your

1089
01:03:14,360 --> 01:03:20,040
Speaker 2: phone and uh and you wouldn't miss anything, you know,

1090
01:03:20,080 --> 01:03:21,440
Speaker 2: you would you would know what's going on.

1091
01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:25,400
Speaker 1: Slash film Rights. A distressing trend in American streaming is

1092
01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:29,120
Speaker 1: the popularization of what Netflix calls casual viewing, or the

1093
01:03:29,160 --> 01:03:31,280
Speaker 1: idea that shows and movies need to be crafted with

1094
01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:34,960
Speaker 1: the understanding that people aren't actually watching. It's a creatively

1095
01:03:35,120 --> 01:03:38,960
Speaker 1: bankrupt approach to storytelling that allows the most disinterested people

1096
01:03:39,240 --> 01:03:41,880
Speaker 1: to become the arbors of what is prioritized by the

1097
01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:45,720
Speaker 1: biggest streaming platform in the world. It's a uniquely American approach,

1098
01:03:45,920 --> 01:03:49,280
Speaker 1: placing more value on the capitalistic benefits of capitulating to

1099
01:03:49,440 --> 01:03:52,600
Speaker 1: laziness rather than what's best for the story. I like

1100
01:03:52,680 --> 01:03:55,640
Speaker 1: that dig at Americans because I believe Heated Rivalry is

1101
01:03:55,720 --> 01:03:58,800
Speaker 1: a Canadian production. So I guess the Canadians are like, oh,

1102
01:03:58,800 --> 01:03:59,880
Speaker 1: we want to pay attention to our.

1103
01:03:59,840 --> 01:04:01,920
Speaker 2: Meat, especially if it's about hockey.

1104
01:04:02,280 --> 01:04:04,880
Speaker 1: Yes, that actually makes a lot of sense. They go

1105
01:04:04,920 --> 01:04:07,600
Speaker 1: on to say that it's arguably a natural consequence of

1106
01:04:07,640 --> 01:04:11,240
Speaker 1: what happens when engagement numbers are the only thing that matters.

1107
01:04:11,240 --> 01:04:13,720
Speaker 1: So if you've got two people who watch Netflix, one

1108
01:04:13,720 --> 01:04:16,280
Speaker 1: who likes to really focus on what they're watching and

1109
01:04:16,320 --> 01:04:18,240
Speaker 1: another who likes to leave their TV on auto play

1110
01:04:18,240 --> 01:04:20,160
Speaker 1: all day while they're doing chores around the house, of

1111
01:04:20,200 --> 01:04:23,080
Speaker 1: course that second person is going to have higher engagement numbers.

1112
01:04:23,080 --> 01:04:26,400
Speaker 1: They're streaming for many hours every day, which makes a

1113
01:04:26,440 --> 01:04:29,360
Speaker 1: lot of sense. And you know, I watched a lot

1114
01:04:29,440 --> 01:04:32,640
Speaker 1: of movies, and I definitely like to watch movies that

1115
01:04:32,960 --> 01:04:35,840
Speaker 1: you have to really pay attention to. I remember you

1116
01:04:35,880 --> 01:04:37,280
Speaker 1: and I and I don't want to put you on

1117
01:04:37,280 --> 01:04:39,760
Speaker 1: the spot, but do you remember when we watched the

1118
01:04:39,800 --> 01:04:43,880
Speaker 1: science fiction thriller Coherence and I was like, Okay, it's

1119
01:04:43,880 --> 01:04:46,080
Speaker 1: a really good movie, but it is a film that

1120
01:04:46,160 --> 01:04:49,240
Speaker 1: rewards careful viewing and you were like, Okay, better get

1121
01:04:49,280 --> 01:04:50,320
Speaker 1: fucked up before we watch.

1122
01:04:52,080 --> 01:04:56,240
Speaker 2: I've since rewatched and you were correct. It does reward

1123
01:04:56,280 --> 01:04:57,080
Speaker 2: careful viewing.

1124
01:04:57,320 --> 01:04:59,800
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you, thank you for thank you for

1125
01:05:00,320 --> 01:05:03,640
Speaker 1: another chance, because if you were like not paying attention

1126
01:05:03,680 --> 01:05:04,720
Speaker 1: to you would be so confused.

1127
01:05:05,040 --> 01:05:06,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it just wouldn't be a very good movie

1128
01:05:07,160 --> 01:05:12,280
Speaker 2: at all. And I guess I'm now I'm like, here's

1129
01:05:12,320 --> 01:05:16,960
Speaker 2: what would be an example of a good movie or show.

1130
01:05:17,040 --> 01:05:19,880
Speaker 2: I feel this casual viewing trend is more about like

1131
01:05:20,440 --> 01:05:24,480
Speaker 2: series than movies, but like, is there one that would

1132
01:05:24,560 --> 01:05:30,200
Speaker 2: be good that does this very overtu you know, announcing

1133
01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:34,160
Speaker 2: everything that is happening, like telegraphing it Because I think

1134
01:05:34,160 --> 01:05:37,840
Speaker 2: about shows like The Office, for example, is something that

1135
01:05:37,880 --> 01:05:40,680
Speaker 2: people stream a lot. I think it's like one of

1136
01:05:40,760 --> 01:05:44,520
Speaker 2: the most streamed shows ever and you know, I personally

1137
01:05:44,560 --> 01:05:49,720
Speaker 2: know multiple people who will just put it on for hours,

1138
01:05:51,000 --> 01:05:55,680
Speaker 2: but they are like in that show, it's it's not

1139
01:05:55,760 --> 01:05:59,160
Speaker 2: like super complicated what's going on, but there are lots

1140
01:05:59,160 --> 01:06:01,640
Speaker 2: of little joe that you will miss if you're not

1141
01:06:01,680 --> 01:06:06,680
Speaker 2: paying attention. And it's okay for that show because you

1142
01:06:06,720 --> 01:06:09,160
Speaker 2: can miss the little jokes but still understand what's going

1143
01:06:09,160 --> 01:06:12,640
Speaker 2: on in the episode. But they are there to pull

1144
01:06:12,680 --> 01:06:17,520
Speaker 2: you in. And you know, I would I have to

1145
01:06:17,600 --> 01:06:19,880
Speaker 2: feel like I probably wouldn't be very interested in a

1146
01:06:19,920 --> 01:06:23,520
Speaker 2: show that it didn't try to do that. Does that

1147
01:06:23,520 --> 01:06:24,200
Speaker 2: make any sense?

1148
01:06:24,560 --> 01:06:26,880
Speaker 1: It makes sense, And I actually can't think of any

1149
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:29,520
Speaker 1: shows that I watch that do it. All of the

1150
01:06:29,600 --> 01:06:32,160
Speaker 1: shows that I that I do watch while I'm doing

1151
01:06:32,200 --> 01:06:34,160
Speaker 1: something else, the reason I'm able to do that is

1152
01:06:34,200 --> 01:06:36,440
Speaker 1: not because they're announcing what they're doing. I've I've just

1153
01:06:36,440 --> 01:06:39,000
Speaker 1: seen them a hundred times. I've seen every episode of

1154
01:06:39,000 --> 01:06:40,840
Speaker 1: the Office one hundred times. I've seen every episode of

1155
01:06:40,880 --> 01:06:44,280
Speaker 1: Real Housewives of New York one hundred times. I'm not

1156
01:06:44,520 --> 01:06:46,800
Speaker 1: watching it to really pay attention. I don't even really

1157
01:06:46,800 --> 01:06:48,160
Speaker 1: know why I'm watching it out that I'm saying it

1158
01:06:48,160 --> 01:06:50,160
Speaker 1: out loud. I don't know I don't know why doing

1159
01:06:50,280 --> 01:06:52,800
Speaker 1: chores is better with a glass of wine and the

1160
01:06:52,840 --> 01:06:55,720
Speaker 1: iPad playing a show that you've seen one hundred times.

1161
01:06:55,760 --> 01:06:57,520
Speaker 1: If anybody knows the science of why that is, I

1162
01:06:57,520 --> 01:06:59,240
Speaker 1: don't know why, but it is. It just is. It's

1163
01:06:59,280 --> 01:06:59,680
Speaker 1: just better.

1164
01:07:00,080 --> 01:07:03,640
Speaker 2: You know, There's this a really interesting question in human

1165
01:07:03,720 --> 01:07:10,840
Speaker 2: preference is when we want novelty and when we want familiarity.

1166
01:07:10,880 --> 01:07:13,680
Speaker 2: It's not as like cut and dry as you might think.

1167
01:07:14,520 --> 01:07:16,200
Speaker 1: I believe this. I believe this.

1168
01:07:16,960 --> 01:07:19,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I guess not really any sort of answer

1169
01:07:19,160 --> 01:07:22,320
Speaker 2: for you, but you know, interesting thing to think about.

1170
01:07:22,560 --> 01:07:25,160
Speaker 1: Well, Mike, thank you for being here as always. Where

1171
01:07:25,160 --> 01:07:26,360
Speaker 1: can folks keep up with us?

1172
01:07:26,600 --> 01:07:29,160
Speaker 2: Well, people can keep up with us on social media,

1173
01:07:29,600 --> 01:07:33,040
Speaker 2: but they can also listen to the mail bag episodes

1174
01:07:33,040 --> 01:07:36,320
Speaker 2: that we're going to be publishing next week over the holidays.

1175
01:07:36,320 --> 01:07:40,000
Speaker 2: We are finally doing Those people who emailed in your

1176
01:07:40,040 --> 01:07:44,520
Speaker 2: stickers are in the mail This includes our friends in

1177
01:07:44,640 --> 01:07:50,640
Speaker 2: Canada and Europe. It was interesting about twenty five percent

1178
01:07:50,920 --> 01:07:55,200
Speaker 2: of the people who emailed in were outside the US,

1179
01:07:55,320 --> 01:07:58,480
Speaker 2: which matches the distribution of who listens to the show.

1180
01:07:58,640 --> 01:08:01,560
Speaker 2: So we love you guys, We appreciate you listening. So

1181
01:08:01,640 --> 01:08:06,040
Speaker 2: you get stickers too, No problem. Yeah, I'm really excited

1182
01:08:06,080 --> 01:08:08,600
Speaker 2: to do these mailbag episodes. We've been making the show

1183
01:08:08,600 --> 01:08:10,880
Speaker 2: for five years. We've never done one of these episodes before.

1184
01:08:11,000 --> 01:08:12,960
Speaker 2: I'm a little nervous. Are you nervous?

1185
01:08:13,200 --> 01:08:15,960
Speaker 1: I am nervous, mostly because that questions we got are

1186
01:08:16,040 --> 01:08:20,000
Speaker 1: like genuinely thoughtful, good questions. I thought people were gonna

1187
01:08:20,040 --> 01:08:23,040
Speaker 1: be you know, I don't know what I'm expecting, but

1188
01:08:23,120 --> 01:08:26,120
Speaker 1: people gave us very good questions, and now I feel

1189
01:08:26,160 --> 01:08:29,840
Speaker 1: a slight pressure to perform, so we'll see be kind.

1190
01:08:30,520 --> 01:08:33,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it'll be good. We're gonna do. We

1191
01:08:33,439 --> 01:08:35,360
Speaker 2: got somebody that we're gonna break it up into two episodes,

1192
01:08:36,200 --> 01:08:37,880
Speaker 2: one with just me and you and then another one

1193
01:08:37,880 --> 01:08:39,880
Speaker 2: where we're gonna bring Joey in because a lot of

1194
01:08:39,880 --> 01:08:42,400
Speaker 2: people had questions for Joey as well, so we've got

1195
01:08:42,439 --> 01:08:45,880
Speaker 2: that coming up. And other than that, we've got our

1196
01:08:45,920 --> 01:08:50,519
Speaker 2: usual social channels Instagram and TikTok at, Bridget Marie in DC,

1197
01:08:51,360 --> 01:08:54,640
Speaker 2: YouTube and blue Sky. There are no girls on the

1198
01:08:54,640 --> 01:08:58,280
Speaker 2: internet easy to find, and you can always email us

1199
01:08:58,400 --> 01:09:01,519
Speaker 2: hello at Tango Doe dot com and you can leave

1200
01:09:02,000 --> 01:09:05,760
Speaker 2: comments on Spotify. People have been doing that. We appreciate it.

1201
01:09:06,680 --> 01:09:08,280
Speaker 1: I read every single one personally.

1202
01:09:09,120 --> 01:09:12,400
Speaker 2: She does and sometimes takes them personally.

1203
01:09:13,400 --> 01:09:16,000
Speaker 1: That's true. I mean I do, But y'all will ever

1204
01:09:16,000 --> 01:09:23,120
Speaker 1: hear about it. Got a story about an interesting thing

1205
01:09:23,120 --> 01:09:25,120
Speaker 1: in tech, or just want to say hi? You can

1206
01:09:25,200 --> 01:09:27,400
Speaker 1: read us at Hello at tegody dot com. You can

1207
01:09:27,439 --> 01:09:30,360
Speaker 1: also find transcripts for today's episode at tengody dot com.

1208
01:09:30,520 --> 01:09:32,160
Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by

1209
01:09:32,200 --> 01:09:35,559
Speaker 1: me Bridget Todd. It's a production of iHeartRadio, an unbossed creative.

1210
01:09:36,000 --> 01:09:38,960
Speaker 1: Jonathan Stricklet as our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our

1211
01:09:39,000 --> 01:09:42,479
Speaker 1: producer and sound engineer. Michael Almato is our contributing producer.

1212
01:09:42,920 --> 01:09:46,720
Speaker 1: Edited by Joey pat I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If

1213
01:09:46,760 --> 01:09:48,479
Speaker 1: you want to help us grow, rate and review us

1214
01:09:48,479 --> 01:09:52,120
Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out

1215
01:09:52,120 --> 01:09:55,240
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1216
01:10:00,760 --> 01:10:04,200
Speaker 2: Oh no, he will wad