WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 244 0:00:01.760 --> 0:00:03.040 Also media. 0:00:03.320 --> 0:00:05.720 Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:09.440 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:12.680 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:16.560 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:16.560 --> 0:00:19.040 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:19.040 --> 0:00:21.000 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:22.759 there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:24.480 you can make your own decisions. 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:31.240 Welcome to it could happen here, a podcast about things 0:00:31.280 --> 0:00:34.000 falling apart and putting them back together again and occasionally 0:00:34.080 --> 0:00:36.760 discovering that there is in fact a second union. I 0:00:36.800 --> 0:00:40.760 am your host of Meal Long Now. A little while back, 0:00:41.080 --> 0:00:44.239 I did an interview with a group of electrolysis workers 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:47.559 who are working for a company called Real Electrolysis, and 0:00:47.600 --> 0:00:50.519 we talked about, you know, their unionization efforts and the 0:00:50.640 --> 0:00:53.200 kind of horror show that was going on there. Now, 0:00:53.479 --> 0:00:55.920 what I didn't mention at the time was that in 0:00:55.960 --> 0:01:01.880 the process of talking to those work and that union, 0:01:01.960 --> 0:01:05.480 I learned that there was in fact a second union 0:01:05.560 --> 0:01:09.000 that had been organized kind of unrelated to the first 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:13.640 union at the other location. And that is who we 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:17.240 are talking to today. To get an update on what 0:01:17.440 --> 0:01:20.319 has been going on in general with the entire situation, 0:01:21.160 --> 0:01:24.600 and also talk about their union and a thing that 0:01:24.680 --> 0:01:28.600 you will kind of commonly experience randomly unionizing places, which 0:01:28.640 --> 0:01:32.840 is that sometimes there is another organizing effort at another 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:34.520 one of the locations at the same place that you 0:01:34.520 --> 0:01:37.240 were organizing, and you don't know about it because everyone's. 0:01:36.880 --> 0:01:37.720 Keeping it secret. 0:01:39.319 --> 0:01:42.880 So yeah, to talk about this, I'm joined by Lake 0:01:42.959 --> 0:01:47.080 and Andy from Gender Affirming Care Workers Alliance. Yeah, both 0:01:47.120 --> 0:01:48.400 of you two, welcome to the show. 0:01:49.240 --> 0:01:51.480 Hi, thank you for having us. Thank you. 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:54.360 Yeah, I'm very excited to talk to you both. 0:01:54.640 --> 0:01:58.080 And I guess before we get into the initial organizing, 0:01:58.160 --> 0:02:00.280 just what was it like finding out that the other 0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:02.040 shop was also unionizing? 0:02:02.680 --> 0:02:09.360 Oh my god, it was terrifying. So, like our number 0:02:09.400 --> 0:02:15.840 one priority during our Lakewood campaign was secrecy. We absolutely 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:20.679 knew how hostile management was towards any kind of improvement 0:02:20.760 --> 0:02:26.040 of workplace conditions. So going from almost five versus spy 0:02:26.200 --> 0:02:30.520 level of off sec to figuring out that Vancouver was 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:33.799 also unionizing and was doing a walkout, like, I think 0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:36.679 that was when we learned. Oh god, was when the 0:02:36.760 --> 0:02:41.160 day that they kind of imploded and we were terrified, 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:43.959 Like we did not think there would be any way 0:02:43.960 --> 0:02:45.240 out of that for Lakewood. 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:47.160 Yeah. 0:02:47.680 --> 0:02:51.080 Yeah, that's a rough way to find out when Yeah, 0:02:51.120 --> 0:02:54.480 the other union is like, oh God, okay, we have 0:02:54.520 --> 0:02:56.080 to do we have to do a walkout, we have 0:02:56.160 --> 0:02:58.200 to go on strike because they're firing us. 0:02:58.880 --> 0:03:02.519 Yeah, I mean it was certainly understandable. I wouldn't say 0:03:02.520 --> 0:03:07.760 we knew why the walkout was happening. When we found 0:03:07.800 --> 0:03:12.200 out that the walkout happened and that a strike was starting, 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:18.440 our campaign kind of came to a halt. Like realizing 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:23.600 there was another campaign happening made us had to reconsider 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:25.160 what we were doing. Like we had our own a 0:03:25.160 --> 0:03:27.480 grievances and we were really just in the process of 0:03:27.880 --> 0:03:31.440 getting people on board. We had maybe a core group 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:36.040 of five, but we had thirteen or up to thirteen 0:03:36.080 --> 0:03:38.760 in the end, but we had like ten to twelve electrologist. 0:03:38.760 --> 0:03:42.440 Because that number was constantly changing, we had to stop 0:03:42.480 --> 0:03:43.160 and reassess. 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:44.680 Yeah, that makes sense. 0:03:44.760 --> 0:03:48.440 And obviously we wanted solidarity with Vancouver. We wanted to 0:03:48.480 --> 0:03:51.040 do whatever we could to support them, but we also 0:03:51.120 --> 0:03:52.600 didn't want to lose our jobs. 0:03:52.880 --> 0:03:53.560 Yeah. 0:03:53.600 --> 0:03:56.280 One of the first things we decided that Lakewood is 0:03:56.320 --> 0:03:58.040 that we weren't going to ask anyone to lose their 0:03:58.120 --> 0:04:00.720 job in order to unionize. We weren't going to put 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:03.680 anyone in a position where they would then become unstable. 0:04:04.640 --> 0:04:08.120 Almost every single worker at Lakewood like desperately needed this job. 0:04:08.280 --> 0:04:08.720 Yeah. 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:09.400 Yeah. 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:15.040 Without it, we would risk calmlessness or other things. Yeah, 0:04:15.080 --> 0:04:17.320 so we kind of got stuck. I mean, it was 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:19.680 it was a tough situation to be in. Knowing that 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:22.560 we would have been on their side, and with more 0:04:22.560 --> 0:04:25.599 information and more planning, we would have probably joined them, 0:04:26.080 --> 0:04:27.240 but we weren't there yet. 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:28.440 Yeah. 0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:32.960 Yeah, And this is I guess partially also, Like you know, 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:35.560 one of the things is difficult about doing campaigns is 0:04:35.560 --> 0:04:39.880 that sometimes like sometimes campaigns move at the speed that 0:04:40.600 --> 0:04:43.080 the workers are organizing at, and then sometimes they move 0:04:43.160 --> 0:04:46.239 at the speed of like, oh my god, the boss 0:04:46.320 --> 0:04:47.200 is firing everyone. 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:48.279 We just have to go now. 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:50.839 Yeah, And that's yeah, that's always one of the issues 0:04:50.920 --> 0:04:53.480 is like as much as you want to be setting 0:04:53.480 --> 0:04:58.040 the tempos, sometimes you're responding to like what management is doing, 0:04:58.160 --> 0:05:01.279 and that can get very rough, very quickly. 0:05:02.080 --> 0:05:07.480 Absolutely, I think Vancouver did great with their circumstances. Like 0:05:07.480 --> 0:05:10.080 you said it, management set the pace and they had 0:05:10.120 --> 0:05:14.120 to respond. At Lakewood, we were really trying to do 0:05:14.200 --> 0:05:16.600 the opposite. We wanted to put us put ourselves in 0:05:16.640 --> 0:05:19.000 a position where we were taking an action and management 0:05:19.080 --> 0:05:22.839 was responding, and in the end we did. We paused 0:05:22.880 --> 0:05:26.480 when Vancouver went on strike, we tried to assess how 0:05:26.520 --> 0:05:29.760 best we could help them without just also imploding Lakewood. 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:33.160 Part of what we realized is that management had not 0:05:33.200 --> 0:05:35.880 realized any campaign was happening at Lakewood because they were 0:05:35.880 --> 0:05:37.960 going to use us as no votes in the election. 0:05:38.320 --> 0:05:38.560 Yeah. 0:05:38.960 --> 0:05:42.279 They wanted us to be considered one bargaining unit because 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:45.200 they thought that we would say no and that union 0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:46.200 would lose the election. 0:05:46.880 --> 0:05:47.320 Yeah. 0:05:47.400 --> 0:05:49.440 So our Sky versus SPIC shit was successful. 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:56.360 Yeah, we're doing well. Management deceived, yeah perfectly. 0:05:57.240 --> 0:06:00.839 Yeah, So do you want to re wind the clock 0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:03.840 a bit and talk about sort of how organizing efforts started. 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:06.080 It was not connected to the other campaign at all. 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:08.279 It wasn't, but I think we were dealing with a 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:13.599 lot of similar issues. Yeah, in our first year, as 0:06:13.640 --> 0:06:19.080 we got onboarded and saw how things were versus the 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:23.440 position that was promised to us and sold to us, Yeah, 0:06:23.720 --> 0:06:26.440 everyone kind of started catching on to things and started 0:06:26.480 --> 0:06:30.400 like building a list of grievances. There were concerns about 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:35.480 the lack of training and patient safety. There were concerns 0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:38.080 about the lack of time to do our job, you know, 0:06:38.120 --> 0:06:41.719 working during breaks, working during our lunches. There was really 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:48.880 unclear and inconsistent disciplinary actions being taken left and right. Yeah, 0:06:49.440 --> 0:06:51.480 Like one person would be told they could do something, 0:06:51.480 --> 0:06:54.880 another person would do that and get written up for it. Yeah, 0:06:54.960 --> 0:06:58.240 it felt targeted. At some point, Lake would realize that 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:00.960 there was no position you could be in where your 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:05.640 where your job was safe. You could be management, you 0:07:05.680 --> 0:07:09.800 could be the owner's absolute favorite electrologist, you could be 0:07:10.040 --> 0:07:12.440 the best at your job. You could keep your head 0:07:12.440 --> 0:07:15.360 down and do absolutely nothing, and one day you would 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:20.200 be disappeared for whatever reason if you got one. Yeah, 0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:22.160 it was like a span of like two or three 0:07:22.200 --> 0:07:27.240 months where we lost maybe five employees and everyone heard 0:07:27.280 --> 0:07:30.520 a different reason if one was given. 0:07:30.880 --> 0:07:34.280 Hmm, which is a pretty clear sign that something is 0:07:34.640 --> 0:07:35.239 going wrong. 0:07:35.920 --> 0:07:36.480 Exactly. 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:41.480 Yeah, And I think I was the second employee to 0:07:41.720 --> 0:07:43.320 be disappeared. 0:07:42.800 --> 0:07:43.520 At the location. 0:07:43.840 --> 0:07:44.520 Jesus Christ. 0:07:44.720 --> 0:07:47.680 Yeah, there were two employees where we were told they resigned, 0:07:47.880 --> 0:07:51.160 and everyone very very much knew that These are employees 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:55.200 that wouldn't have resigned. These were employees that were ready 0:07:55.280 --> 0:07:57.960 to start careers and build their life around real you 0:07:58.720 --> 0:08:02.000 we all believed in real use mission. But yeah, eventually 0:08:02.080 --> 0:08:05.240 we just realized it didn't matter. Yeah, there was no 0:08:05.360 --> 0:08:08.000 job stability for anyone, and that was a really big 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:10.200 issue because that's what all of us came to this 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:13.600 job for. We were hoping for long term careers that 0:08:13.640 --> 0:08:17.280 paid us livable wages and also were safe for us 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:19.640 to be ourselves in. There's not a lot of jobs 0:08:19.680 --> 0:08:22.960 where trans women get to be trans women, and like 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:24.680 this was a job that almost celebrated it. 0:08:25.120 --> 0:08:29.760 And I know, for me personally, I was really excited 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:33.560 for the opportunity to be able to help the community. 0:08:33.960 --> 0:08:38.040 Yeah, I come from Florida, I'm born and raised unfortunately, 0:08:38.880 --> 0:08:41.440 where transitioning for a long time was kind of a 0:08:41.440 --> 0:08:44.560 pipe dream, Like it was not a realistic goal of 0:08:44.600 --> 0:08:48.280 mine until moving to Washington. And now I get to 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:51.160 take or I used to get to take part in 0:08:51.160 --> 0:08:53.240 people's transition every day for my job. 0:08:53.520 --> 0:08:56.240 Yeah, I don't know, And that's I think like one 0:08:56.280 --> 0:08:59.160 of the kind of cruelest parts of all of this, 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:01.680 And like what management has done it's just like ripping 0:09:01.679 --> 0:09:03.880 that away from both you and from the community. 0:09:04.640 --> 0:09:07.640 Absolutely, And it didn't have to be that way. 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:09.880 No, it really didn't. Yeah. 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:15.199 And I guess speaking of the cruelty of management, Yeah, Andy, 0:09:15.240 --> 0:09:17.000 I guess do you want to talk about when you 0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:22.360 said getting disappeared? What was going on with that? 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:29.600 So I had brought a lot of the grievances that 0:09:30.040 --> 0:09:34.560 I was seeing and had towards the owners of the 0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:40.080 company on on Lea, alongside the manager of the clinic 0:09:40.120 --> 0:09:44.439 at the time. And any time anything wrong with the 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:52.520 business was brought up, hostilities just grew and they kept 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:57.280 growing the more and more that we said, hey, you know, 0:09:57.360 --> 0:10:01.120 there's issues with the training. There these issues with the 0:10:01.160 --> 0:10:03.600 amount of time that people have to do your jobs. 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:10.960 And it was honestly a really hostile environment created by Anna. 0:10:12.760 --> 0:10:19.400 And before I had gotten disappeared, I was in my 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:26.280 educational program for electrolysis. I was in the process of 0:10:26.320 --> 0:10:32.480 completing that before my termination, and I had brought up 0:10:32.520 --> 0:10:37.640 some of my concerns because as I was learning more 0:10:37.679 --> 0:10:43.120 and more about electrolysis, I realized that so many of 0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:49.640 the things we had been taught were just wrong. Yeah, 0:10:49.679 --> 0:10:55.280 And because Ana and Leah didn't want to address it 0:10:56.920 --> 0:11:03.360 and didn't want that information being out there. I was 0:11:03.520 --> 0:11:07.760 put in the position where I either had to sign 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:13.440 a non disclosure to forgive my student low debt, or 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:15.920 I could choose to just be fired. 0:11:16.440 --> 0:11:17.640 And then assume the debt. 0:11:18.040 --> 0:11:21.080 Jesus, I mean they did. They just literally forced you 0:11:21.080 --> 0:11:21.720 out of the company. 0:11:22.400 --> 0:11:25.400 Correct, it was an involuntary resignation. 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:29.840 Yeah, that is only voluntary, and like the strict Hobbesy 0:11:29.840 --> 0:11:32.600 in sense where like Hobbes considers that if someone has 0:11:32.640 --> 0:11:34.320 a gun at your head and tells you to do 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:36.880 something and you do it, you still voluntarily made the decision. 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:39.240 And I don't know. 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:41.360 About you, I don't hold to the strict hobsy an 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:45.120 interpretation of voluntary. I don't think I agree, but I 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:47.320 think that if you were coerced into a decision, it's 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:48.200 not voluntary. 0:11:48.520 --> 0:11:49.000 I don't know. 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:54.079 Oh God, obviously. 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:57.120 I think the other part of this that's just really 0:11:57.960 --> 0:12:00.000 grotesque is what you were talking about in terms of 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:02.840 just the education being wrong, because this is something that's 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:06.160 really common in trans healthcare, where like there should Yeah, 0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:08.280 there is just a bunch of stuff the medical professionals 0:12:08.920 --> 0:12:12.040 are being taught that was developed from something someone figured 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:14.080 out kind of in the eighties and has never been 0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:16.160 updated in the course of like the last twenty five 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:20.680 years of the development of science and then just also 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:24.240 the development of there being more and more trans people 0:12:24.280 --> 0:12:28.760 who have been, you know, just like experiencing treatment. And 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:33.040 it's frustrating, I think, because you really rarely ever get 0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:36.280 a scenario where there are trans people who actually are 0:12:36.400 --> 0:12:40.800 in a position sufficient enough in any kind of medical 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:44.360 institution to even like get to talk about it. And 0:12:44.400 --> 0:12:48.160 the fact that their response was to just like disappear 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:52.320 you and like force you out of the company is 0:12:53.000 --> 0:12:53.760 really bleak. 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:54.960 Yeah. 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:59.520 And on that note, I would say most of the 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:06.840 whole poes received about two weeks training before working on patients. 0:13:07.160 --> 0:13:07.600 Oh boy. 0:13:08.200 --> 0:13:13.440 That and the educational program that I went through was 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:20.160 four months. So if you kind of compare the timelines 0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:24.120 there of how we were trained in the job versus 0:13:24.840 --> 0:13:27.920 the education that I got, it just wasn't enough. 0:13:28.559 --> 0:13:32.440 Yeah, not only was it not enough, but anyone who 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:36.559 voiced that it wasn't enough put their job at risk. 0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:39.120 I mean there's more than one Lakewood worker that went 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:42.199 to management saying, hey, I don't feel well trained enough, 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:45.600 I don't feel informed enough, and they were met with 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:48.200 well more than one situation in which they were like 0:13:48.280 --> 0:13:51.640 directly asked like do you feel comfortable working on patients? 0:13:51.800 --> 0:13:54.719 Do you think you're capable of this job? With the 0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:59.720 implication or the direct verbal statement being if you don't, 0:14:00.320 --> 0:14:03.520 maybe you should find somewhere else to work. Yeah, But 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:06.240 all of us signed up for this job with the agreement, 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:08.400 like we signed these loan agreements with the idea that 0:14:08.440 --> 0:14:12.320 we'd be going to this in depth training. Like the 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:15.960 owners themselves during my interview process at least talked up 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:19.240 sat Master's constantly like this is the place to go 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:25.120 to learn about how to provide electrolysis for transgender clients specifically. 0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:25.560 Yeah. 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:29.000 And then I worked there for sixteen months and never 0:14:29.160 --> 0:14:33.359 saw any training after my first few weeks, Like, yeah, 0:14:33.800 --> 0:14:36.920 I think the entire sixteen months there after my first month, 0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:43.520 my sessions were only observed three times. Jesus only three times. 0:14:43.880 --> 0:14:47.560 And I was not an electrolysist provider before this. This 0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:50.720 was my entry into it. Their training was the only 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:54.800 training I got. Yeah, And the only reason my sessions 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:58.840 started being shadowed at all is because providers themselves started 0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:01.000 asking for like auditing sessions. 0:15:02.160 --> 0:15:05.000 There is an instance that I would like to bring up. 0:15:05.640 --> 0:15:12.080 I was overseeing the training of new hire and during 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:16.800 this training period, I had a patient on my books 0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:20.480 who had requested to never be on my books again, 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:25.040 which no, totally fine, totally valid, But the fact that 0:15:25.080 --> 0:15:29.160 they were put on my books after requesting not to 0:15:29.200 --> 0:15:30.800 see me again was an issue. 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:34.560 It's not totally fine or totally valid to do that. 0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:41.200 That's not fine on management's part. And so as I 0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:44.720 am training this new hire and we're going into this session, 0:15:45.160 --> 0:15:49.200 the patient wasn't comfortable with me being there in the 0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:52.280 room to provide training to the new hire. So I 0:15:52.360 --> 0:15:55.240 had to leave the new hire alone. 0:15:55.280 --> 0:15:57.920 With that patient Jesus. 0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:01.160 Because they weren't come with me being there. 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:05.760 Yeah, that is a just absolutely unacceptable way for any 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:08.680 of this to be running, especially with a delicate healthcare 0:16:08.680 --> 0:16:09.680 thing that can cause. 0:16:09.520 --> 0:16:10.240 Inturgue to people. 0:16:11.000 --> 0:16:13.960 Exactly, if we can back up for a second, can 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:17.080 you explain a little bit for people who didn't listen 0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:19.960 to the first episode or people who don't remember about 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:25.360 the absolutely wild I guess nominally student loan like in 0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:28.560 danger program thing that was. That's the key component of 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:30.040 this whole of this whole story. 0:16:30.720 --> 0:16:34.680 So just about every worker until like some of the 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:39.800 most recent workers, got a job at real U Electrolysis 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:45.400 with the understanding that we would be hired and trained 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:50.920 and receive pay well being trained by real you, but 0:16:50.960 --> 0:16:53.800 that at some point they would send us to zap 0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:59.040 Masters in Centralia for an electrolysis training program and to 0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:03.760 get us licensed via Oregon State. Washington doesn't have electrolysis 0:17:03.800 --> 0:17:07.640 licensure requirements. You could buy a machine and start providing. 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:11.879 You shouldn't, but you could, yea. So the idea was 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:14.840 that they would pay for our zap Master's training, they 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:17.480 would pay for our machine, they would pay us while 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:21.359 we were learning this job and starting with them, and 0:17:21.400 --> 0:17:24.120 they totally all of that at around nineteen thousand, five 0:17:24.200 --> 0:17:28.040 hundred dollars plus interest, So nineteen to twenty one thousand 0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:31.600 is the number that gets thrown around. They would pay 0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:34.399 for that and forgive it if we agreed to work 0:17:34.440 --> 0:17:39.240 for them for four years after they license us. So 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:43.000 this four year timer doesn't even start until we're finished 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:47.080 with school and get our license in Oregon. It included 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:49.600 a clause where not only do we have to work 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:51.960 for them for four years, but we can't work for 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:53.600 other electrolysis. 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:59.280 Clinics, which these kinds of employment agreements are literally called 0:17:59.600 --> 0:18:04.280 trap agreements. Yeah, if that kind of cluesy in anything. 0:18:04.600 --> 0:18:10.080 Yeah, Yeah, it's like it's since an indigered servitud agreements. 0:18:09.560 --> 0:18:16.800 Like and that's like, God, hindsight is twenty twenty Jesus crushed. Yeah, 0:18:16.840 --> 0:18:18.760 a lot of us had the foresight to know it 0:18:18.800 --> 0:18:22.879 wasn't a good situation, but we were coming from worse situation. 0:18:23.440 --> 0:18:24.040 Yeah. 0:18:24.320 --> 0:18:26.479 I think a way to think about this also is 0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:29.480 just that, like, you know, there's two parts of us 0:18:29.520 --> 0:18:33.159 that are predatory. One is the recruitments that is designed 0:18:33.320 --> 0:18:35.520 is you know, based on i mean just lying to 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:39.040 people about how this is going to go. And then 0:18:39.080 --> 0:18:42.800 there's the secondary parts that's the exploitiveness of the agreement itself. 0:18:43.000 --> 0:18:46.080 And I don't know, I think we have this very 0:18:46.280 --> 0:18:50.840 very annoying tendency to look at being an inherently exploitive 0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:53.000 situation to something as you know, something that like through 0:18:53.000 --> 0:18:56.840 anioliberal personal choice, you could just avoid being in these 0:18:56.880 --> 0:18:59.359 situations entirely, and that's just like not true. 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:02.240 No, Unfortunately, if you have a regular job, you are 0:19:02.280 --> 0:19:03.040 being exploited. 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:06.680 Yeah, yeah, and you know the fact that like going 0:19:06.720 --> 0:19:08.639 back to the sort of like hobbsy and consent thing, 0:19:08.680 --> 0:19:12.160 it's like, well, okay, like, is anyone actually like you know, 0:19:12.320 --> 0:19:16.080 operating freely in a set of conditions where yeah, like 0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:18.320 if you don't take the job, your alternative is that 0:19:18.359 --> 0:19:20.520 you don't have food, and you you know, you can't 0:19:20.520 --> 0:19:22.040 pay your rent and you and you don't have a 0:19:22.080 --> 0:19:23.560 home anymore exactly. 0:19:23.680 --> 0:19:28.080 I mean when I came to real you, I was homeless. Yeah, 0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:30.120 before being employed with them. 0:19:30.520 --> 0:19:34.400 You're not the only one. I think many of us were. 0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:37.760 Yeah, And that's something that I think is also really 0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:41.879 bleak about the way that this was structured, which was 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:43.840 like one of the things that we talked about the 0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:47.480 last episode was at Annealantry like very specifically said that 0:19:47.520 --> 0:19:50.520 she was targeting trans people because you could just like 0:19:50.640 --> 0:19:52.520 treat them a little bit nicely and they would do 0:19:52.600 --> 0:19:55.720 anything for you. And yeah, it's like, you know, this 0:19:56.160 --> 0:19:58.800 is a deliberate targeting of a population that has an 0:19:58.880 --> 0:20:02.480 unemployment rate that is what like four and a half 0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:05.960 times the un the general unemployment rate in the US, 0:20:06.000 --> 0:20:08.840 that is, at all times and at all places, operating 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:12.800 in like great depression levels of unemployment and that's yeah, 0:20:12.920 --> 0:20:15.399 you know who's like homelessness rates and like rate of 0:20:15.440 --> 0:20:18.680 having been homelesses like orders of magnitude higher for the 0:20:18.720 --> 0:20:23.320 general population. And I don't know, it's extremely bleak that, 0:20:24.320 --> 0:20:28.240 you know, the opportunity to both like help your community 0:20:28.320 --> 0:20:34.040 and also make a just absolutely seismic like class increase 0:20:34.760 --> 0:20:38.199 from like being homeless and struggling to feed yourself to 0:20:38.320 --> 0:20:43.000 like having stable employment is ultimately kind of this like 0:20:43.480 --> 0:20:44.840 debt peon ship trap. 0:20:45.520 --> 0:20:47.879 Yeah, I mean you put it pretty clearly. 0:20:48.359 --> 0:20:53.160 Capitalism sucks like christ bad economic exist. 0:20:52.800 --> 0:20:55.840 Of good Lord Ough agreed. 0:20:58.840 --> 0:21:02.960 So speaking of capital we should probably throw to ads, 0:21:03.560 --> 0:21:05.320 and then when we come back, we could talk more 0:21:05.320 --> 0:21:08.440 about resisting capitalism, which is to say, how the organizing 0:21:08.800 --> 0:21:10.480 dot going and what's been happening. 0:21:10.200 --> 0:21:11.480 Since Yeah sounds good. 0:21:11.880 --> 0:21:27.520 Sounds good, and we are back. Yeah, so let's get 0:21:27.520 --> 0:21:30.160 into a little bit more of like how the organizing 0:21:30.200 --> 0:21:33.359 process started and how it sort of went. 0:21:34.840 --> 0:21:36.400 I think Andy might be a good one to start 0:21:36.400 --> 0:21:39.560 with this, because, unbeknownst to everyone, there were three different 0:21:39.560 --> 0:21:43.320 starts through our union efforts. Andy, before you got. 0:21:43.160 --> 0:21:49.880 Got yeah, I was looking into the possibility of trying 0:21:49.920 --> 0:21:53.080 to start a union at the shop. I was reaching 0:21:53.119 --> 0:21:57.760 out to different union organizations, and I was also looking 0:21:57.880 --> 0:22:01.720 at what government agencies that I could be reaching out 0:22:01.760 --> 0:22:04.720 to about some of the things that we were experiencing 0:22:04.720 --> 0:22:05.560 at our workplace. 0:22:05.880 --> 0:22:11.400 Yeah, so that would have been around November of last year. 0:22:12.560 --> 0:22:14.640 Around November. 0:22:15.920 --> 0:22:19.960 And then Andy disappeared that there was a string of firings, 0:22:20.880 --> 0:22:25.439 and I would say our efforts started again around January 0:22:25.520 --> 0:22:28.760 of this year. Kind of just started with one of 0:22:28.800 --> 0:22:34.119 our workers chatting with their patients. The trans community is 0:22:34.119 --> 0:22:40.879 also pretty involved in organizing mutual aid unions. So like 0:22:40.960 --> 0:22:43.719 when you're shooting the ship with your patient and they 0:22:43.800 --> 0:22:48.400 hear like a workplace ripe for organizing, they tell. 0:22:48.280 --> 0:22:51.000 You, wait, that is the that is that is maybe 0:22:51.080 --> 0:22:52.440 the sweetest thing I've ever heard. 0:22:52.800 --> 0:22:59.840 Like it was pretty good. This wouldn't have happened. 0:23:00.640 --> 0:23:02.640 Trans people, truly, truly amazing. 0:23:03.480 --> 0:23:09.560 Oh so, yeah, we had a patient who was an 0:23:09.560 --> 0:23:13.920 IWW member who told us that was, look, you gotta start, 0:23:14.440 --> 0:23:17.360 you gotta get in contact with the GNB and then 0:23:17.400 --> 0:23:20.399 start learning how to organize. So we did. 0:23:21.080 --> 0:23:21.840 That's amaze. 0:23:22.680 --> 0:23:27.200 Okay, it's not quite salting because he was someone who 0:23:27.280 --> 0:23:30.080 was a patient and not like an employee, but it's 0:23:30.160 --> 0:23:33.240 like it's kind of like an accidental saulting. 0:23:35.040 --> 0:23:38.240 Oh my god, none of this would have happened without 0:23:38.359 --> 0:23:43.760 our patients. They've been supportive of the entire way. When 0:23:44.000 --> 0:23:47.600 things in Vancouver started happening, we all started having patients 0:23:47.600 --> 0:23:50.680 ask or tell us that, look, I don't want to 0:23:50.680 --> 0:23:53.520 put you in an AFERA position, but if y'all started unionizing, 0:23:53.760 --> 0:23:59.240 that'd be dope. Yeah, it was really nice getting a support. 0:24:00.119 --> 0:24:02.359 Sucked that we couldn't talk to them about it because, 0:24:02.400 --> 0:24:03.960 like we said, we were kind of doing spy versus 0:24:04.000 --> 0:24:07.320 s by level of yeah, yeah, we didn't want management 0:24:07.320 --> 0:24:10.960 to know, so our patients didn't know until kind of 0:24:11.000 --> 0:24:15.040 the last month, which sucked. I mean these people that 0:24:15.080 --> 0:24:20.199 we've been seeing weekly or more often for months, weeks, 0:24:20.359 --> 0:24:23.120 up to a year, it sucked not getting to tell 0:24:23.119 --> 0:24:25.399 them what was going on, knowing that they cared. 0:24:25.960 --> 0:24:29.760 Yeah, And it just really starts example of like what 0:24:29.840 --> 0:24:33.120 community actually is versus what it's sold to us as 0:24:33.200 --> 0:24:36.320 we're like, yeah, you have this thing where you know, 0:24:36.440 --> 0:24:40.479 you have genuine community with the patients that you're treating 0:24:40.840 --> 0:24:45.960 in a way that's staggeringly, unbelievably rare in any kind 0:24:45.960 --> 0:24:50.280 of trans healthcare field, and you know, and from that community, 0:24:50.320 --> 0:24:52.679 you get hey, you get hey, you should organize, and like, 0:24:52.760 --> 0:24:55.800 you know, people trying to help do the organizing, and 0:24:55.840 --> 0:24:58.359 then you know, you have the sort of like the 0:24:58.400 --> 0:25:01.200 corporate version of community, which is the boss is running 0:25:01.240 --> 0:25:03.919 a terror campaign and like disappearing your trans coworkers. 0:25:04.720 --> 0:25:09.160 Yeah, it's pretty stark contrast. Yeah, Honestly, part of why 0:25:09.160 --> 0:25:12.240 it went on for so long is every red flag 0:25:12.280 --> 0:25:16.119 that management had, there were at least one, if not 0:25:16.119 --> 0:25:19.439 two green flags between your coworkers and your clientele. That 0:25:19.560 --> 0:25:24.240 made up for it. Yeah, But going back to organizing. January, 0:25:24.359 --> 0:25:27.280 we got in contact with the Tacoma GMB for the 0:25:28.119 --> 0:25:32.639 IWW GMB is General Membership branch, so it's essentially just 0:25:32.680 --> 0:25:37.119 the local IWW to us, and we had a organizing 0:25:37.160 --> 0:25:39.679 rep who would do kind of like monthly calls with 0:25:39.760 --> 0:25:42.479 us at first, just telling us how to organize, what 0:25:42.560 --> 0:25:47.480 conversations to have, and how to get people interested the 0:25:47.720 --> 0:25:53.280 AIOU conversation, Agitate, educate, inoculate, organized, push one of those. 0:25:53.640 --> 0:25:55.560 Yeah, yeah, you got it. 0:25:55.600 --> 0:25:58.560 Because none of us had any organizing experience, So we 0:25:58.640 --> 0:26:02.840 had all of this energy to write our conditions, but 0:26:02.920 --> 0:26:05.720 we didn't know how to do it, So we started 0:26:05.720 --> 0:26:10.680 having conversations with the IWW and just slowly started building 0:26:10.760 --> 0:26:15.000 up our group of trustworthy workers that we knew wanted this. 0:26:16.480 --> 0:26:21.920 It wasn't hard. Most of us lean left, if not radical, 0:26:22.800 --> 0:26:26.919 so binding union sympathies was not difficult. Binding the grievances 0:26:27.040 --> 0:26:30.040 was even easier. I mean, these things are pretty clear 0:26:30.040 --> 0:26:30.800 in the workplace. 0:26:31.320 --> 0:26:36.560 Yeah to bosses once again, the best organizer. 0:26:37.160 --> 0:26:40.520 Yeah, exactly. What really did it for us is when 0:26:40.640 --> 0:26:42.000 paychecks started bouncing. 0:26:42.160 --> 0:26:44.760 Yeah, I just I just still saw I a hole 0:26:44.840 --> 0:26:46.879 on this for a second to flight, Yeah, what do 0:26:46.920 --> 0:26:48.920 you mean the paychecks are bouncing? 0:26:49.080 --> 0:26:52.359 What the fuck? Jesus Christ? 0:26:52.480 --> 0:26:55.159 Yeah, that's about how we felt like. At the end 0:26:55.160 --> 0:26:57.879 of March, they swapped us from direct posit over to 0:26:58.119 --> 0:27:01.280 paper paychecks. Our first one was in April and there 0:27:01.320 --> 0:27:04.439 was at Lakewood only one person who had it balance. 0:27:05.000 --> 0:27:07.720 I think Vancouver also had some issues, but like we said, 0:27:07.800 --> 0:27:10.720 there was no communication between the branches, so we didn't 0:27:10.720 --> 0:27:13.600 know what they were dealing with. Yeah, and the management 0:27:13.680 --> 0:27:17.520 kind of did their best to keep the locations separate. 0:27:18.640 --> 0:27:22.280 Like Lakewood was told things about Vancouver to kind of 0:27:22.359 --> 0:27:24.960 view them negatively, and the same with Vancouver. 0:27:25.840 --> 0:27:28.840 Yeah, which again is this real sort of image of 0:27:28.880 --> 0:27:33.080 like what the world's ruled by bosses is, which is like, yeah, 0:27:33.440 --> 0:27:36.560 they're deliberately trying to isolate people from their community and 0:27:36.760 --> 0:27:39.919 liberally trying to separate people and instill sort of like 0:27:40.160 --> 0:27:44.359 fear and hatred against each other. And then you get 0:27:44.359 --> 0:27:47.120 put in this position where it's like it becomes difficult 0:27:47.160 --> 0:27:50.800 to actually like do the kind of like community building 0:27:50.800 --> 0:27:52.879 and the kind of like solidarity and organizing that you 0:27:52.920 --> 0:27:56.160 want to because everyone also has to like hide from 0:27:56.160 --> 0:27:57.440 this boss surveillance state. 0:27:57.840 --> 0:28:01.440 I feel pretty bad. Like all the way up until 0:28:01.560 --> 0:28:06.080 we heard about Vancouver's walk out, I kind of referenced 0:28:06.160 --> 0:28:09.480 Vancouver as like the Vancouver colt, because it sounded like 0:28:09.520 --> 0:28:12.840 everyone was really happy and fine with how things were going, 0:28:13.280 --> 0:28:17.840 and Anna and Leo were just doing what they wanted Vancouver, 0:28:17.880 --> 0:28:19.960 and everyone's fine with it, and everyone's happy with it, 0:28:20.320 --> 0:28:24.399 and it was okay over there. So I mean that 0:28:24.480 --> 0:28:26.720 was part of why we didn't contact them Initially. We 0:28:26.720 --> 0:28:30.159 didn't know who it was safe to. Lakewood had our 0:28:30.200 --> 0:28:33.680 own experiences of like talking to a worker we thought 0:28:33.840 --> 0:28:36.600 was on our side and they immediately turned around and 0:28:36.640 --> 0:28:42.720 go talk to management. Yeah yeah, so yeah, communication just 0:28:42.720 --> 0:28:46.360 wasn't there between us and Vancouver. So when checks started bouncing, 0:28:46.680 --> 0:28:50.520 the total number was always unclear. The first paycheck it 0:28:50.560 --> 0:28:53.440 was just one. That second paycheck in April, it was 0:28:53.480 --> 0:28:57.240 already a few more people, Chris. So when they told 0:28:57.280 --> 0:29:00.480 the first worker they had no idea why that check bounced, 0:29:01.080 --> 0:29:04.680 and then the next paycheck, more checks bounced, it was 0:29:05.200 --> 0:29:12.760 like immediately obvious they were being Yeah, untruthful, I'm dishonest, Like. 0:29:12.120 --> 0:29:16.280 Like what one paycheck bouncing is already unacceptable, like the 0:29:16.280 --> 0:29:19.360 correct the paycheck second bounce is zero, but it's like 0:29:19.480 --> 0:29:22.360 the woman there's more than one. Suddenly it's like that 0:29:22.480 --> 0:29:25.880 it becomes a lot less likely that it's like they 0:29:26.000 --> 0:29:29.160 fucked up, and more likely that like like something deliberately 0:29:29.200 --> 0:29:32.520 like malicious and messed up is happening. 0:29:32.120 --> 0:29:36.680 Here exactly each paycheck. The frequency kind of just went up, 0:29:36.720 --> 0:29:39.200 like how many people had their paychecks bounce, and the 0:29:39.240 --> 0:29:43.040 way that it was handled was just rewriting them, like 0:29:43.400 --> 0:29:46.240 it was your responsibility to figure out it had bounced, 0:29:46.440 --> 0:29:49.640 go to management and ask them to fix it. Them 0:29:49.640 --> 0:29:53.320 fixing it was either reissuing you a check or asking 0:29:53.320 --> 0:29:54.640 you to try cashing it again. 0:29:55.000 --> 0:29:56.080 Oh my god. 0:29:57.720 --> 0:30:03.160 There was one paycheck where after it bounced for me 0:30:03.200 --> 0:30:05.400 and my partner, they did just tell us to try 0:30:05.600 --> 0:30:08.320 every day because they couldn't tell us when they would 0:30:08.320 --> 0:30:10.400 have the funds to pay us because some money comes 0:30:10.440 --> 0:30:12.920 in and out every single day. It was a pretty 0:30:12.920 --> 0:30:14.320 wild situation to be put in. 0:30:14.560 --> 0:30:19.760 Yeah, like Jesus Christ, like just like absolute nightmare. 0:30:20.720 --> 0:30:21.880 Oh my god. 0:30:22.240 --> 0:30:26.320 So when checks started bouncing, it it kind of clarified 0:30:26.360 --> 0:30:27.640 what we could organize around. 0:30:27.640 --> 0:30:27.960 First. 0:30:28.160 --> 0:30:30.640 Yeah, I mean, if you're not getting paid, you don't 0:30:30.640 --> 0:30:32.000 have a job to unionize. 0:30:32.440 --> 0:30:36.240 Yeah, that's that's like the most like nothing to lose 0:30:36.280 --> 0:30:38.640 in a world to win situation you could possibly abagine 0:30:38.800 --> 0:30:42.600 exactly like we're getting paid, we're doing real work for 0:30:42.680 --> 0:30:44.120 fake money, like. 0:30:45.800 --> 0:30:46.000 Right. 0:30:46.480 --> 0:30:48.200 So we kind of settled on that as like our 0:30:48.240 --> 0:30:53.000 first grievance and demand to organize around is we're demanding 0:30:53.040 --> 0:30:59.320 guaranteed pay, which isn't even like it shouldn't be a demand. 0:30:59.320 --> 0:31:01.840 It's their legal so much. 0:31:01.920 --> 0:31:05.400 It's like, yes, you must form a union in order 0:31:05.480 --> 0:31:10.360 to have the right to be paid. Which I've been 0:31:10.400 --> 0:31:13.480 saying this kind of joke about what it's like being 0:31:13.520 --> 0:31:15.800 trans for a while where it's like to be a 0:31:15.840 --> 0:31:19.320 trans person in America is to like aspire to the 0:31:19.360 --> 0:31:23.120 status of a meer proletarian. We only get regular exploitation 0:31:23.680 --> 0:31:28.720 instead of like the even honestly you get here, it's like, yeah, 0:31:28.840 --> 0:31:30.680 we had to form a union so they would like 0:31:30.920 --> 0:31:32.440 pay us, and it's like. 0:31:32.600 --> 0:31:33.520 God, like. 0:31:34.960 --> 0:31:36.240 We just wanted real job. 0:31:36.360 --> 0:31:39.520 Yeah, Like, oh my god. 0:31:41.760 --> 0:31:44.720 Going back to when we started talking to the IWW 0:31:45.560 --> 0:31:49.360 in those first like initial union ish meetings, it was 0:31:49.360 --> 0:31:51.560 still just very few of us and we hadn't put 0:31:51.600 --> 0:31:54.680 words to it yet, but we kind of realized that 0:31:55.040 --> 0:31:59.680 we weren't super interested in going the route of the 0:31:59.800 --> 0:32:03.840 an RB with a election for a union and then 0:32:03.960 --> 0:32:08.240 collective bargaining for a contract. We had contracts. We know 0:32:08.320 --> 0:32:11.480 how real you write its contracts. We weren't interested in 0:32:11.520 --> 0:32:16.640 another one. We wanted the ability to react to changes 0:32:16.640 --> 0:32:20.720 in the workplace with flexibility, which is what the IWW 0:32:20.800 --> 0:32:25.479 was offering. They focused on solidarity unionism that doesn't use 0:32:25.520 --> 0:32:29.160 the NLRB but instead uses worker power via direct action 0:32:30.000 --> 0:32:34.040 to get management to the table and to meet your demands. 0:32:34.880 --> 0:32:36.840 Because a lot of this was rushed, we didn't get 0:32:36.880 --> 0:32:40.200 a chance to really get the terminology and our options. 0:32:40.880 --> 0:32:45.000 But one of the terms they used was involuntary recognition. 0:32:46.200 --> 0:32:46.800 That's fun. 0:32:47.040 --> 0:32:49.920 We were running underground until we were ready to go public, 0:32:49.960 --> 0:32:52.239 but we were fine with being a public union. We 0:32:52.320 --> 0:32:55.480 just didn't need the NLRB's backing. We had the worker 0:32:55.520 --> 0:32:57.920 power in the workplace and we were going to do 0:32:58.000 --> 0:33:00.400 direct action to get what we wanted. So, yeah, I 0:33:00.440 --> 0:33:03.520 think the word we were using was involuntary recognition. 0:33:03.920 --> 0:33:08.200 Yeah, like I love that. That's great, right. Yeah. 0:33:08.480 --> 0:33:12.560 So going back to March and April, knowing that we 0:33:12.560 --> 0:33:14.400 weren't interested in contracts and that we were going to 0:33:14.400 --> 0:33:16.760 go the round of direct action, we just had to 0:33:16.840 --> 0:33:19.560 choose a demand to start with. The bouncing paychecks was 0:33:19.560 --> 0:33:22.640 a pretty easy one. So we started having meetings and 0:33:22.720 --> 0:33:26.240 talking about what kind of direct action we could do 0:33:27.000 --> 0:33:29.120 and what kind of escalations we could have if we 0:33:29.120 --> 0:33:33.000 were organizing around the demand for guaranteed pay and that 0:33:33.040 --> 0:33:36.480 demand essentially we were asking them to resume direct deposit 0:33:37.240 --> 0:33:39.960 or deliver our next check in the form of guaranteed 0:33:40.000 --> 0:33:45.720 funds like cash, money orders, cashier's check, something that won't balance. Yeah, 0:33:45.800 --> 0:33:49.840 we wanted our money on the day it was due. 0:33:50.240 --> 0:33:52.240 And also, like I want to say, this too. 0:33:52.360 --> 0:33:54.880 That like there's like a theory version of this in 0:33:54.960 --> 0:33:57.880 Capital where March talks about how like labor is the 0:33:57.920 --> 0:34:00.120 only commodity that you pay for at the end and 0:34:00.200 --> 0:34:03.000 not at the beginning when you purchase it, where like 0:34:03.080 --> 0:34:06.040 every other commodity you have to like pay for it 0:34:06.080 --> 0:34:09.680 before you get it, whereas with labor you pay for 0:34:09.760 --> 0:34:13.399 it after. But like, if you tried this with any 0:34:13.440 --> 0:34:17.560 other commodity other than labor, this is a crime, right. 0:34:17.400 --> 0:34:18.680 I mean it's a crime for labor too. 0:34:18.719 --> 0:34:19.680 Yeah, it is a grid for labor. 0:34:19.719 --> 0:34:22.000 But it's like but it's also like like if you 0:34:22.160 --> 0:34:26.000 do this at a grocery store, like you will be arrested, yes, 0:34:26.560 --> 0:34:30.080 And when a corporation does it, it's like, okay, if 0:34:30.160 --> 0:34:32.200 you want the law to help you for doing again 0:34:32.360 --> 0:34:34.440 the same thing that will get men with guns to 0:34:34.520 --> 0:34:38.200 take you away at a grocery store, right, you have 0:34:38.280 --> 0:34:40.960 to form a fucking union and organize. I don't know, 0:34:41.239 --> 0:34:42.320 I hate this fucking system. 0:34:43.000 --> 0:34:48.160 It's so unbelievably exploitative, and it's so clear in these 0:34:48.200 --> 0:34:50.560 sort of moments like who is designed to protect and 0:34:50.560 --> 0:34:54.080 who's not designed to protect, where like the punishment for 0:34:55.160 --> 0:34:58.680 the same literally the same crime is like one of 0:34:58.719 --> 0:35:01.600 them guess you arrested, and the other one gets you 0:35:01.760 --> 0:35:02.880 like a union campaign. 0:35:03.840 --> 0:35:07.000 Yeah, there's also something that I'd like to mention. 0:35:07.480 --> 0:35:13.040 Yeah, for those who managed to go through this app 0:35:13.080 --> 0:35:17.600 master program, one of the things that was supposed to 0:35:17.640 --> 0:35:23.640 happen was that those employees during their education were supposed 0:35:23.680 --> 0:35:29.960 to receive stipends to cover their living expenses during our schooling, 0:35:30.320 --> 0:35:34.040 many of whom which were either not working at the 0:35:34.120 --> 0:35:39.839 time or working at reduced hours, and some of them 0:35:40.320 --> 0:35:45.600 saw stipends or partial stipends, and some of them, from 0:35:45.760 --> 0:35:49.759 what I understand, received nothing at all. Jesus, but we're 0:35:49.800 --> 0:35:54.279 still working at those reduced hours trying to support themselves 0:35:54.600 --> 0:35:56.240 while also going to school. 0:35:56.560 --> 0:36:00.440 Yeah, which is again also a I guess like it's 0:36:00.440 --> 0:36:02.640 a form of wage stuft. And also b it's a 0:36:02.640 --> 0:36:07.680 thing where like, like the difference between the bosses making 0:36:07.880 --> 0:36:12.360 slightly less money that year and a bunch of workers 0:36:12.480 --> 0:36:16.719 who are like mostly trans and in really horrifying like 0:36:16.800 --> 0:36:19.760 economic conditions not having that money. Is the difference between 0:36:20.400 --> 0:36:23.399 someone like maybe buying I don't even want to say 0:36:23.440 --> 0:36:26.960 buying a slightly less like fancy car because it's not 0:36:27.000 --> 0:36:29.319 even that much money for them, It's like, I don't know, 0:36:29.360 --> 0:36:31.400 like they have one day where they don't go to 0:36:31.480 --> 0:36:35.399 like an unbelievably expensive restaurant, versus like can I feed 0:36:35.440 --> 0:36:36.120 myself at night? 0:36:36.880 --> 0:36:40.239 Yeah, they get one less personal massage. Yeah, we might 0:36:40.360 --> 0:36:41.239 end up homeless. 0:36:43.000 --> 0:36:43.480 Yeah. 0:36:43.560 --> 0:36:43.840 Yeah. 0:36:43.840 --> 0:36:45.640 That was part of the situation that was starting to 0:36:45.640 --> 0:36:48.319 really weigh on me near the end. Is because part 0:36:48.360 --> 0:36:51.239 of what I had signed up for was agreeing to 0:36:51.280 --> 0:36:54.200 work part time and do schooling part time, and it 0:36:54.200 --> 0:36:56.040 was supposed to be like anywhere from five to six 0:36:56.120 --> 0:36:58.759 days a week with the two, which was going to 0:36:58.840 --> 0:37:01.880 be a bit much for me. But at some point 0:37:01.920 --> 0:37:05.000 they decided they wanted all their workers doing school full 0:37:05.120 --> 0:37:08.560 time so that they could get through it quicker. But 0:37:08.680 --> 0:37:11.960 they didn't adjust the stipend they were offering, so you 0:37:12.000 --> 0:37:16.320 were expected to stretch the shame amount of money over 0:37:17.520 --> 0:37:19.680 time where you weren't getting any income at all, and 0:37:19.719 --> 0:37:22.400 that money was four thousand, five hundred dollars, which is 0:37:22.440 --> 0:37:24.880 not enough for that like three months of rent and 0:37:25.160 --> 0:37:28.520 food and gas gas because it's in Centralia. 0:37:28.920 --> 0:37:29.880 Yeah. 0:37:29.960 --> 0:37:32.640 So yeah, Like I had had multiple conversations with them 0:37:32.640 --> 0:37:34.399 about it, and they would not give me a clear 0:37:34.480 --> 0:37:38.320 answer on whether we would be able to continue working 0:37:38.520 --> 0:37:40.560 or if we wouldn't get to work, or what we 0:37:40.600 --> 0:37:42.040 would do about our income situation. 0:37:43.280 --> 0:37:47.080 And that's the situation that I ended up in was 0:37:47.840 --> 0:37:52.200 for the last two months of my schooling, I had 0:37:52.239 --> 0:37:58.600 to float myself on very little income because I had 0:37:58.680 --> 0:38:02.760 only received enough to really cover the first two months 0:38:02.880 --> 0:38:03.239 of the. 0:38:03.200 --> 0:38:06.080 School And it's going took like six to nine months 0:38:06.200 --> 0:38:07.200 if you were part time. 0:38:07.600 --> 0:38:09.279 If you were a part time it took six to 0:38:09.360 --> 0:38:12.880 nine months, yeah, yeah, and four months if you were 0:38:12.920 --> 0:38:14.720 full time, which I was going full time. 0:38:15.280 --> 0:38:15.520 Yeah. 0:38:15.520 --> 0:38:17.919 And then also like the second thing with that too 0:38:18.040 --> 0:38:20.640 is just like it's not only are you like spending 0:38:20.719 --> 0:38:23.560 time doing training for this job unpaid, Like that's also 0:38:23.640 --> 0:38:26.560 taking in time where you can't work another job to 0:38:26.600 --> 0:38:27.280 get more income. 0:38:27.680 --> 0:38:30.400 Well, if you wanted to work at another job, you had 0:38:30.440 --> 0:38:33.319 to get their approval jeess chrust. Yeah, they made it 0:38:33.320 --> 0:38:36.000 pretty clear they wanted you committed to reel you and 0:38:36.040 --> 0:38:36.720 nothing else. 0:38:37.120 --> 0:38:40.360 Yeah, it's it's cult tactics. And then also the classic 0:38:40.480 --> 0:38:44.360 like wonderful capitalist double freedom where you have freedom from 0:38:45.080 --> 0:38:48.120 the ability to eat and then the freedom to sell yourself. 0:38:50.000 --> 0:38:52.960 Yeah, I mean I could always choose to go homeless 0:38:52.960 --> 0:38:53.440 and hungry. 0:38:53.800 --> 0:38:56.560 Yeah, so that the law and is magnificent equality bans 0:38:56.560 --> 0:38:58.840 both the rich and the poor from sleeping under a bridge. 0:38:59.120 --> 0:39:04.200 Yeah. So we chose our demand and we came up 0:39:04.239 --> 0:39:08.440 with our plan. We had our actions settled, and we 0:39:08.480 --> 0:39:12.440 had a plan for if management responded, if they didn't, 0:39:13.480 --> 0:39:18.320 if they escalated, we had our options and we felt 0:39:18.360 --> 0:39:21.319 secure going in at that point. Like when we first 0:39:21.320 --> 0:39:26.280 started our actions, we only actually had five workers participating, 0:39:26.640 --> 0:39:29.400 more that were sympathetic, but all that felt that they 0:39:29.440 --> 0:39:33.520 weren't in a position to do direct action and lose 0:39:33.560 --> 0:39:36.560 their job. We saw Vancouver lose their jobs when they 0:39:36.560 --> 0:39:40.440 took action. We knew it was a very real possibility, 0:39:41.120 --> 0:39:44.960 but we started, I believe. On June twenty ninth, we 0:39:45.000 --> 0:39:48.120 delivered our demand for guaranteed pay to our manager. The 0:39:48.160 --> 0:39:50.000 IWW calls it a march on the boss. 0:39:50.680 --> 0:39:51.560 Yeah. 0:39:51.640 --> 0:39:53.960 It was like less than five minutes total. The five 0:39:54.000 --> 0:39:58.160 workers presented our demand. We gave two testimonials for like 0:39:58.200 --> 0:40:02.760 how it's been impacting us directly, and then we left. 0:40:03.719 --> 0:40:06.920 We sent a follow up email to the owners of 0:40:06.960 --> 0:40:09.120 the company because we had handed it to the manager 0:40:10.200 --> 0:40:13.239 and we're waiting for their response, we put it out 0:40:13.280 --> 0:40:16.799 there and we just had to wait. Yeah, the next day, 0:40:17.719 --> 0:40:21.359 the manager caught one of our workers on her own 0:40:21.840 --> 0:40:26.359 to respond, essentially telling us they could not afford to 0:40:26.400 --> 0:40:28.600 pay us any other way that they were paying us. 0:40:28.960 --> 0:40:32.239 They could cut us paper checks on each payday and 0:40:32.280 --> 0:40:34.279 that was it. That wasn't one of the options we 0:40:34.280 --> 0:40:34.640 gave them. 0:40:34.800 --> 0:40:36.440 Yeah, I just. 0:40:36.400 --> 0:40:39.640 Can't get over the like, yeah, sorry, the only way 0:40:39.640 --> 0:40:41.560 i could afford to keep running my business is if 0:40:41.560 --> 0:40:44.120 I'm allowed to not pay you, and that that's the 0:40:44.160 --> 0:40:46.120 next thing you have to accept is if. 0:40:46.040 --> 0:40:48.920 I'm allowed to hand out checks that can't be cashed. 0:40:50.920 --> 0:40:51.880 Yeah. 0:40:52.280 --> 0:40:56.000 So when they told us no, we looked at our 0:40:56.000 --> 0:40:59.600 plan and we took our next action. We submitted a 0:40:59.600 --> 0:41:03.080 bunch of l and I claims for our checks that 0:41:03.160 --> 0:41:08.320 had been NSF or insufficient funds. An LANI claim Labor 0:41:08.360 --> 0:41:12.400 in Industries is kind of like the Protective body body 0:41:12.440 --> 0:41:15.680 for workers in Washington. For each check that we had 0:41:15.680 --> 0:41:20.000 received that bounced, we had a right to file a 0:41:20.080 --> 0:41:23.640 worker's rights complaint. The problem with those complaints is that 0:41:23.680 --> 0:41:28.360 they're not anonymous. Your employer gets told when one is filed. 0:41:28.600 --> 0:41:31.879 Hoogled it and why they filed it. Unfortunately, that wasn't 0:41:31.880 --> 0:41:33.800 an option, and so we were all doing it together 0:41:34.680 --> 0:41:37.719 unless we wanted to lose our job as one by one. Yeah, 0:41:37.800 --> 0:41:40.080 So when they told us no, we started by submitting 0:41:40.080 --> 0:41:43.360 our LNI claims. It all happened so quick and it 0:41:43.400 --> 0:41:46.760 was one action after another that it kind of blurs together. 0:41:47.400 --> 0:41:49.160 So I think we submitted our l and I claims 0:41:49.400 --> 0:41:51.399 when we gave them our demand on the twenty ninth, 0:41:51.719 --> 0:41:55.080 we gave them a deadline for our next payday, So 0:41:55.280 --> 0:41:57.280 July third is when we were due to get paid again, 0:41:57.640 --> 0:42:00.520 and we said, by then, you have to agree that 0:42:00.520 --> 0:42:04.480 you're going to give us guaranteed pay or deliver guaranteed funds. 0:42:04.880 --> 0:42:05.600 Yeah. 0:42:05.719 --> 0:42:07.920 The next day they had told us no, and on 0:42:08.000 --> 0:42:11.680 Friday they delivered paychecks like any other pay day. Yeah, 0:42:11.760 --> 0:42:14.280 they didn't really acknowledge what we had asked. They didn't 0:42:14.719 --> 0:42:17.759 acknowledge that they weren't meeting our demand. They did not 0:42:17.880 --> 0:42:20.440 tell us there were any issues with these checks, or 0:42:20.480 --> 0:42:22.520 that they might bounce, or that there weren't the funds. 0:42:23.120 --> 0:42:27.399 They at no point asked anyone to delay cashing their 0:42:27.480 --> 0:42:30.160 checks because they didn't have the funds like that was 0:42:30.200 --> 0:42:33.640 part of the issue is like, sometimes businesses run into 0:42:33.680 --> 0:42:37.600 financial issues and you have to deal with it. The 0:42:37.680 --> 0:42:39.520 way to deal with it is not by giving out 0:42:39.560 --> 0:42:43.239 bad checks and not telling your workers. 0:42:54.800 --> 0:42:56.799 For people who haven't like thought of this before, there 0:42:56.800 --> 0:43:00.480 are like actual consequences for attempting to to cash a 0:43:00.560 --> 0:43:03.839 check that doesn't cash, absolutely, like that gets taken out 0:43:03.880 --> 0:43:06.160 on you the person choose attempting to cash the check, 0:43:06.440 --> 0:43:09.279 like as well as the people upstream who are doing 0:43:09.280 --> 0:43:09.920 the bad checks. 0:43:10.000 --> 0:43:10.120 Like. 0:43:10.360 --> 0:43:12.440 We actually managed to avoid that at Lakewood for the 0:43:12.440 --> 0:43:17.040 most part because once checks started bouncing, we were scared 0:43:17.040 --> 0:43:20.680 of that happening. Yeah, so we started cashing them at Chase, 0:43:21.320 --> 0:43:24.319 which is who real you banks with. You don't have 0:43:24.360 --> 0:43:26.440 to have an account with Chase to go get your 0:43:26.520 --> 0:43:28.759 check cash with them. You just have to pay a 0:43:28.760 --> 0:43:32.880 ten dollars fee and have forms of identification. So the 0:43:32.920 --> 0:43:37.160 people who went to Chase and had their checks bounce there, 0:43:37.760 --> 0:43:38.920 it never hit their account. 0:43:39.120 --> 0:43:40.240 Yeah, that's good. 0:43:40.400 --> 0:43:43.200 There were never any fees or any negative marks on 0:43:43.200 --> 0:43:47.720 our accounts. For the people who couldn't do that, there were, Yeah, 0:43:47.920 --> 0:43:51.840 there were NSF fees. At least one lakequoiod employee now 0:43:51.920 --> 0:43:55.760 has had their account completely shut down for ninety days 0:43:55.840 --> 0:43:57.640 while it's investigated for fraud. 0:43:58.480 --> 0:44:01.359 Yeah, which is because it's like, Okay, the people who 0:44:01.360 --> 0:44:05.000 were committing the fraud are the bosses, but now you 0:44:05.000 --> 0:44:08.000 don't have a fucking bank account for ninety days, which 0:44:08.080 --> 0:44:09.040 is just a nightmare. 0:44:09.560 --> 0:44:12.439 Part of our hope had been that by cashing them 0:44:12.480 --> 0:44:17.279 at Chase, Chase would flag the account because like their 0:44:17.280 --> 0:44:20.200 account was with Chase, and they were consistently issuing these 0:44:20.320 --> 0:44:23.120 checks that they couldn't afford to cash, and we were 0:44:23.160 --> 0:44:26.799 consistently cashing them at Chase, who had to acknowledge them. 0:44:26.800 --> 0:44:27.640 Weren't the funds there? 0:44:27.800 --> 0:44:28.280 Yeah. 0:44:28.920 --> 0:44:32.440 Unfortunately, they told us a couple of times that there 0:44:32.520 --> 0:44:34.480 was just nothing they could do on their end. 0:44:35.160 --> 0:44:37.720 Love, capitalist, class solidarity, great stuff. 0:44:38.719 --> 0:44:43.400 So we did our demand, we did our L and 0:44:43.400 --> 0:44:47.680 I claims, and then they delivered our paychecks as if 0:44:47.880 --> 0:44:48.720 nothing had happened. 0:44:48.960 --> 0:44:49.520 Yeah. 0:44:49.960 --> 0:44:56.040 So, over that weekend we finalized our plan to stage 0:44:56.120 --> 0:45:02.480 walkouts starting on Monday from to one. Workers would leave, 0:45:02.560 --> 0:45:05.200 really you to go to the local Chase and attempt 0:45:05.239 --> 0:45:08.439 to cash their checks, and we did that until each 0:45:08.480 --> 0:45:11.800 worker got paid. It normally took like fifteen to twenty minutes, 0:45:11.880 --> 0:45:14.239 and then we spent the rest of the hour, you know, 0:45:14.280 --> 0:45:17.239 doing our direct action, not returning to work. Yeah, but 0:45:17.360 --> 0:45:19.759 when it was one o'clock we returned to work. We 0:45:19.760 --> 0:45:22.839 were ready to see our patients. We all messaged our 0:45:22.880 --> 0:45:26.319 clients the night before if they were affected, and if 0:45:26.360 --> 0:45:30.120 we had the time, we offered them replacement sessions. We 0:45:30.160 --> 0:45:32.399 did our best to follow the rules as much as 0:45:32.400 --> 0:45:35.759 we could while breaking them. We were trying to send 0:45:35.760 --> 0:45:39.160 a message management we weren't trying to disrupt patient care 0:45:40.640 --> 0:45:42.520 every step of the way. We were doing our best 0:45:42.640 --> 0:45:48.280 to disrupt actual patient care to the least amount possible. 0:45:48.360 --> 0:45:48.560 Yeah. 0:45:49.640 --> 0:45:53.719 So that went on for three days. On Monday, none 0:45:53.760 --> 0:45:57.319 of the checks cleared. On Tuesday we got six of them, 0:45:57.600 --> 0:46:00.520 and on Wednesday we got the last one. I did, 0:46:00.560 --> 0:46:02.719 forget to say that was when we picked up two 0:46:02.760 --> 0:46:05.240 more workers. There were a couple of workers who weren't 0:46:05.239 --> 0:46:10.480 comfortable prior to them taking part in direct action, that 0:46:10.600 --> 0:46:15.120 were ready and did join the walkout with us. Management 0:46:15.160 --> 0:46:18.200 ignored the walkouts. We got absolutely no response. 0:46:18.680 --> 0:46:19.120 Oh boy. 0:46:19.320 --> 0:46:22.279 We sent email updates each day, you know, like this 0:46:22.400 --> 0:46:25.319 mini checks cleared, this many didn't. We're going to keep 0:46:25.320 --> 0:46:29.000 going at any point if they had just told us, yes, 0:46:29.200 --> 0:46:35.040 we'll give you guaranteed pay next payday, we would have stopped. Yeah, 0:46:35.160 --> 0:46:39.120 they didn't. Yeah, so we got paid on Wednesday. A 0:46:39.239 --> 0:46:42.560 few days went by when we still weren't hearing from them, 0:46:43.160 --> 0:46:47.480 so we escalated again. I think after that we did 0:46:47.520 --> 0:46:50.120 a stick out, So there was a day where everyone 0:46:50.160 --> 0:46:52.600 called in sick and most of the workers weren't in 0:46:52.600 --> 0:46:57.919 the office. Yeah, yeah, which is pretty noticeable, especially when 0:46:57.920 --> 0:47:01.239 management doesn't come into the office and all that's left 0:47:01.280 --> 0:47:06.960 is your newbies. We did that again, still no response. 0:47:07.680 --> 0:47:11.279 We sent another follow up email being like, you continue 0:47:11.400 --> 0:47:14.360 to not meet our demands, We're going to continue to 0:47:14.360 --> 0:47:17.839 take action. At any point. We will call a ceasefire 0:47:18.040 --> 0:47:20.799 if you come to the table and either meet our 0:47:20.800 --> 0:47:23.600 demand or tell us why you can't tell us what 0:47:23.640 --> 0:47:26.840 your plan is to do to meet it in the future. 0:47:27.080 --> 0:47:29.520 And they still didn't, so we moved on to what's 0:47:29.560 --> 0:47:33.000 called the good Work strike. Every provider that was taking 0:47:33.040 --> 0:47:35.800 part we showed up. We did our jobs, we treated 0:47:35.840 --> 0:47:39.520 our patients, we cleaned our rooms. We just didn't sign 0:47:39.640 --> 0:47:44.160 our notes because that meant that management wasn't able to 0:47:44.200 --> 0:47:49.440 bill for them. Because if we weren't getting paid, neither 0:47:49.560 --> 0:47:50.160 should they. 0:47:50.480 --> 0:47:53.279 Yeah, it's a version of the bus strikes, where like 0:47:53.320 --> 0:47:56.320 you just run the buses but then don't charge anyone. 0:47:56.480 --> 0:48:00.359 Yeah, exactly. That was exactly the line of thinking. There 0:48:00.400 --> 0:48:03.239 was another group of nurses in a hospital that would 0:48:03.480 --> 0:48:06.520 stopped charting so that patients would be billed, but they 0:48:06.600 --> 0:48:08.960 kept performing the work. And that's exactly where I got 0:48:08.960 --> 0:48:11.720 the idea from. Yeah, we had patients that we wanted 0:48:11.760 --> 0:48:15.279 to take care of, but we didn't want to give 0:48:15.920 --> 0:48:19.000 real ne money when they weren't meeting their obligations. 0:48:19.160 --> 0:48:20.120 Yeah. 0:48:20.560 --> 0:48:22.280 Thats that went. 0:48:22.160 --> 0:48:25.440 On for a few days, and then on our day off, 0:48:25.960 --> 0:48:30.040 we got a bunch of information. On that Thursday, it 0:48:30.239 --> 0:48:34.239 was revealed that management had been told really you was 0:48:34.280 --> 0:48:37.560 going bankrupt and would be closing probably the twenty fourth. 0:48:37.680 --> 0:48:38.160 Oh boy. 0:48:38.360 --> 0:48:42.399 So they learned that Thursday, and we didn't know what 0:48:42.440 --> 0:48:47.000 they would tell us if anything, and payday was Friday, 0:48:47.680 --> 0:48:50.560 so they were either going to meet or demand or 0:48:50.600 --> 0:48:53.799 not meet it again yea. And so that plus the 0:48:53.800 --> 0:48:57.160 information we got on Thursday, we decided to do another 0:48:57.160 --> 0:49:00.840 stick out so that we could reassess. We wanted to 0:49:00.880 --> 0:49:03.880 see what they were actually gonna do. We wanted to 0:49:03.880 --> 0:49:05.640 see if the business was going to be open. 0:49:06.320 --> 0:49:07.440 Yeah, because there's just. 0:49:07.440 --> 0:49:10.160 Red flag after red flag. Some of us are expecting 0:49:10.200 --> 0:49:13.720 them to close up and run away at any point. Yeah, 0:49:13.800 --> 0:49:17.160 I mean they opened on Friday, checks were delivered. Two 0:49:17.239 --> 0:49:18.560 of us received fake ones. 0:49:19.160 --> 0:49:21.520 Oh yeah, yeah, let's talk about the fake checks for 0:49:21.560 --> 0:49:25.800 a second. What the fuck? 0:49:26.000 --> 0:49:26.960 I can't get over this? 0:49:27.640 --> 0:49:33.520 What listed We like to joke that whatever you think 0:49:33.520 --> 0:49:36.919 the worst option is, really you will choose a worst one. 0:49:37.040 --> 0:49:38.759 Yeah. 0:49:39.360 --> 0:49:43.759 So at least two employees, We're certain more. We're just 0:49:43.880 --> 0:49:47.279 not sure who exactly and how many. But we were 0:49:47.280 --> 0:49:53.120 given checks that were kind of handwritten, Like the only 0:49:53.200 --> 0:49:56.160 things printed on them were like the color that check 0:49:56.160 --> 0:49:58.960 paper is and one of the lines on the back 0:49:59.000 --> 0:50:03.320 where you endorse it. Everything else was hand drawn from 0:50:03.560 --> 0:50:05.520 like who was made out to how much it was 0:50:05.640 --> 0:50:11.839 the lines those were written on. Yeah, like it sent 0:50:11.920 --> 0:50:13.880 alarm bells ringing pretty quickly. 0:50:15.080 --> 0:50:19.440 That's not even monopoly money, because monopoly money is printed. 0:50:20.280 --> 0:50:23.560 This is like yeah, no, it was like a crafts project. 0:50:23.800 --> 0:50:24.000 Yeah. 0:50:24.040 --> 0:50:25.759 It was like they've invented a form of payment like 0:50:25.880 --> 0:50:27.520 fakers and company store money. 0:50:27.880 --> 0:50:29.640 Like it's unbelievable. 0:50:32.200 --> 0:50:34.239 Yeah, we got those, and we were pretty suspicious but 0:50:34.280 --> 0:50:39.080 we took them to Chase anyways, and the teller was like, look, 0:50:39.120 --> 0:50:42.960 I can't I can't even cash this to tell you 0:50:43.000 --> 0:50:45.279 that it's bounced, because there's no way for me to 0:50:45.400 --> 0:50:49.040 verify it's real. The security markets that are supposed to 0:50:49.120 --> 0:50:50.799 be on the back are not there. 0:50:52.920 --> 0:50:54.920 It's like, sorry, I have a poor frake tell and 0:50:54.920 --> 0:50:58.279 it's just like, yeah, sorry, I like can't cash, Like 0:50:58.280 --> 0:51:01.880 like just like child's draw money, this is not an 0:51:01.920 --> 0:51:03.520 extensible form of payment. 0:51:04.080 --> 0:51:05.680 Yeah, she's right. 0:51:06.880 --> 0:51:11.200 Oh no, They unfortunately couldn't really tell us what to 0:51:11.200 --> 0:51:16.480 do about it. Yeah, So we had to reach out 0:51:16.800 --> 0:51:20.400 to our management and ownership to be like, hey, we 0:51:20.440 --> 0:51:23.480 could not cash our checks. We need real ones issued. 0:51:23.800 --> 0:51:28.600 Uh huh, let us know how you're doing that. Also, 0:51:29.680 --> 0:51:33.600 on Friday, we were out of work. We were waiting 0:51:33.600 --> 0:51:36.400 for news, and I think that's when they sent out 0:51:36.440 --> 0:51:39.759 the email about the business closing. At like one point 0:51:39.760 --> 0:51:43.080 fifty six workers got an email to their company email, 0:51:43.719 --> 0:51:46.520 which meant most of us could not access it because 0:51:46.520 --> 0:51:49.080 we don't access work emails from home. That's when they 0:51:49.080 --> 0:51:51.440 sent it out, and like thirty minutes later they sent 0:51:51.520 --> 0:51:54.800 out a patient announcement, and that's how most of us learned. 0:51:55.640 --> 0:51:59.840 We learned as patients first that really was closing in 0:52:00.080 --> 0:52:01.040 one week. 0:52:01.320 --> 0:52:04.880 Yeah, which is just horrifying stuff. 0:52:05.239 --> 0:52:08.960 That was when it really hit me. When I opened 0:52:09.080 --> 0:52:11.960 my patient portal and read the announcement, I felt like 0:52:12.000 --> 0:52:14.520 I was seeing it, like all my patients were reading it, 0:52:15.120 --> 0:52:19.560 and like I was losing access to needed care out 0:52:19.560 --> 0:52:26.359 of nowhere. It was heartbreaking. It was devastating, Like there's 0:52:26.440 --> 0:52:28.799 no words to describe how I felt for all of 0:52:28.840 --> 0:52:32.759 my patients. Some of them knew it was coming, most 0:52:32.800 --> 0:52:36.080 of them didn't. A lot of them didn't get last sessions. 0:52:36.600 --> 0:52:39.680 I mean when we got the notice, we as a 0:52:39.840 --> 0:52:44.360 union realized that if we worked that last week, whether 0:52:44.440 --> 0:52:46.200 or not we'd get paid was up in the air. 0:52:47.040 --> 0:52:49.000 I mean, if they chose not to pay us, we 0:52:49.040 --> 0:52:52.040 would have to go through bankruptcy court and get in 0:52:52.080 --> 0:52:55.960 line to get paid. So instead we decided to strike. 0:52:56.600 --> 0:52:59.560 We spent the last week that really was open on 0:52:59.640 --> 0:53:03.440 the pick line telling patients what was actually happening. We 0:53:03.440 --> 0:53:06.200 weren't boycotting, We weren't asking anyone not to go in 0:53:06.239 --> 0:53:09.759 and have their last sessions. We were encouraging that any 0:53:09.840 --> 0:53:12.600 of the providers that were left, anyone who had sessions, 0:53:12.600 --> 0:53:16.320 we wanted them to get them before they couldn't. Yeah, 0:53:16.360 --> 0:53:18.080 but we also didn't want to provide free labor. 0:53:18.239 --> 0:53:18.640 Yeah. 0:53:18.840 --> 0:53:19.240 Yeah. 0:53:19.280 --> 0:53:22.080 And it wasn't an easy decision. I mean it's one 0:53:22.120 --> 0:53:24.480 that the group had to talk about and go back 0:53:24.480 --> 0:53:27.560 and forth on. I mean, none of us thought that 0:53:27.560 --> 0:53:29.480 our last sessions were going to be our last sessions. 0:53:30.080 --> 0:53:32.160 We all wanted to see our patients one more time. 0:53:32.520 --> 0:53:35.239 We didn't want our patients' last session to be their 0:53:35.320 --> 0:53:38.360 last session. Yeah, but we also didn't want to be 0:53:38.400 --> 0:53:39.360 exploited even further. 0:53:39.840 --> 0:53:40.120 Yeah. 0:53:40.520 --> 0:53:42.280 I mean we made it clear what we were willing 0:53:42.320 --> 0:53:43.680 to do, and we followed through. 0:53:44.400 --> 0:53:46.879 I mean, I think it's really like the most pure 0:53:46.960 --> 0:53:50.720 example of just the dilemma that healthcare work, and also 0:53:50.840 --> 0:53:55.560 like nonprofit work and anything where you're taking care of people, 0:53:56.239 --> 0:53:58.560 it's you're put in this dilemma. Were like the way 0:53:58.600 --> 0:54:00.960 that exploitation by the bosses were like, they're going to 0:54:00.960 --> 0:54:04.160 exploit you and pay you less because of your care 0:54:04.280 --> 0:54:06.160 for the work that you're doing and the people that 0:54:06.200 --> 0:54:11.319 you're helping. And this is like the most pure like, yeah, 0:54:11.320 --> 0:54:13.239 the choice you've been given by your bosses is to 0:54:13.480 --> 0:54:16.920 probably work for free. To help your community and make 0:54:16.960 --> 0:54:19.040 these people a little bit more money before they fuck 0:54:19.120 --> 0:54:23.239 off or go on strike and have to deal with 0:54:23.600 --> 0:54:25.280 you know, like have to try to get your patient's 0:54:25.320 --> 0:54:26.120 treatment somehow. 0:54:26.239 --> 0:54:26.680 Exactly. 0:54:27.320 --> 0:54:28.520 It's horrifying. 0:54:28.840 --> 0:54:33.680 It's an impossible choice. Yeah, it sucked. None of us 0:54:33.800 --> 0:54:36.640 wanted it to go that way. It didn't have to 0:54:36.680 --> 0:54:37.960 be that way. 0:54:38.000 --> 0:54:38.520 It didn't. 0:54:38.840 --> 0:54:43.640 And I think it's really unfortunate because multiple steps along 0:54:43.680 --> 0:54:48.280 the way, they could have scaled back operations to focus 0:54:48.440 --> 0:54:51.720 on fixing the internal issues with the business. 0:54:52.080 --> 0:54:54.359 Yeah, it's not like they didn't have people telling them 0:54:54.400 --> 0:54:57.759 what was happening. Mm hmm. It's just they chose to 0:54:57.800 --> 0:55:00.239 stick their head in the sand like an ostrich and 0:55:00.640 --> 0:55:01.320 keep going. 0:55:02.040 --> 0:55:02.759 Yeah. 0:55:03.400 --> 0:55:06.359 And you know, and ultimately, like you're the people who 0:55:06.400 --> 0:55:10.759 are paying the price for their mistakes and you know, 0:55:10.920 --> 0:55:15.279 their greed and arrogance and malice. 0:55:15.520 --> 0:55:21.439 Yeah, but we survived, and I know that a lot 0:55:21.440 --> 0:55:25.640 of my fellow workers agree with me that this was 0:55:25.680 --> 0:55:29.120 an experience we would rather have than not have. Yeah, 0:55:29.239 --> 0:55:34.799 we found a lot of solidarity and community, and I mean, 0:55:34.920 --> 0:55:38.080 we've built relationships that are going to last past this. 0:55:39.080 --> 0:55:43.000 We're hoping to move on and work together again. In 0:55:43.120 --> 0:55:44.720 something better. 0:55:45.680 --> 0:55:48.520 Yeah, yeah, And my understanding is that the long term 0:55:48.560 --> 0:55:50.359 goal is to try to set up a co op 0:55:50.440 --> 0:55:52.359 to be able to do this without sort of the 0:55:52.440 --> 0:55:53.840 exploitation of the bosses. 0:55:54.880 --> 0:55:57.600 I mean, yeah, that is the ideal. I think every 0:55:57.719 --> 0:56:01.960 union number's dream would be a worker cooperative or somewhere 0:56:02.000 --> 0:56:07.120 where they have some form of either ownership or say 0:56:07.400 --> 0:56:11.840 in the process. We would love to create something where 0:56:11.880 --> 0:56:15.200 our patients and our workers are working in tandem together 0:56:16.000 --> 0:56:21.200 to create the care that they deserve. Like you mentioned earlier, 0:56:21.280 --> 0:56:24.520 there's just such a lack of standards of care for 0:56:24.680 --> 0:56:27.960 trans like gender firm and care. We don't talk to 0:56:28.040 --> 0:56:31.480 each other enough. We don't value the patient experience enough. 0:56:32.160 --> 0:56:34.000 We figured out a lot of things in the eighties 0:56:34.080 --> 0:56:37.799 and didn't bother doing more research. We want to do that. 0:56:37.880 --> 0:56:40.520 We want to fill that hole, and we have a 0:56:40.520 --> 0:56:42.640 lot of workers that are very committed to that, that 0:56:42.680 --> 0:56:46.600 are very excited by that opportunity. It's a long term 0:56:46.640 --> 0:56:49.719 goal and the short term we're hoping to get more 0:56:49.719 --> 0:56:54.160 people educated like we were promised, and back to providing. 0:56:54.840 --> 0:56:58.120 We're hoping to find new placements for our patients that 0:56:58.200 --> 0:57:02.040 have urgent care needs, like people who have surgeries that 0:57:02.080 --> 0:57:05.200 are coming up. Yeah, we're working on a database of 0:57:05.320 --> 0:57:11.040 like local electrolysis clinics, who has availability, who treats what areas, 0:57:11.120 --> 0:57:14.839 and who takes what insurance is. So if we have 0:57:15.000 --> 0:57:18.120 patients that are looking for new places, they can reach 0:57:18.120 --> 0:57:20.520 out and we can point them somewhere. But we're always 0:57:20.880 --> 0:57:24.720 looking for more resources too. We're in our information gathering phase. 0:57:24.920 --> 0:57:28.680 We're trying to resource compile, just get everything we can 0:57:29.160 --> 0:57:32.320 for our workers so that we can take those next steps. 0:57:32.400 --> 0:57:33.280 Yeah. Absolutely. 0:57:34.320 --> 0:57:40.400 And what's devastating about this all is really was one 0:57:40.440 --> 0:57:44.960 of the few places that actually took insurances. Not many 0:57:45.280 --> 0:57:49.320 electrolysis clinics do, so it can be very difficult for 0:57:49.400 --> 0:57:51.520 people to find and afford care. 0:57:52.400 --> 0:57:56.000 Yeah, absolutely, And that's I don't know, like, yeah, that's 0:57:56.040 --> 0:57:58.360 like another one of the heart wrenching things about this 0:57:58.560 --> 0:58:02.000 is like all of the patients whose medical care is 0:58:02.040 --> 0:58:03.800 ripped away by this, and the fact that it's y'all 0:58:03.840 --> 0:58:04.760 trying to figure out how. 0:58:04.680 --> 0:58:06.439 To help them and not the bosses is. 0:58:08.200 --> 0:58:12.000 Like such an indication of which side people are fundamentally on. 0:58:12.640 --> 0:58:14.880 I mean, how they handled the closure is a pretty 0:58:14.880 --> 0:58:17.840 clear sign of that too. Yeah, if you cared about 0:58:18.000 --> 0:58:21.840 your patients finding new places before their services were disrupted, 0:58:21.960 --> 0:58:24.760 you would have given them more than one week notice. Yeah, 0:58:24.800 --> 0:58:27.720 I mean you require two weeks notice from workers before 0:58:27.760 --> 0:58:28.320 they owe you. 0:58:28.760 --> 0:58:29.320 Yeah. 0:58:29.360 --> 0:58:30.920 I think our patients deserve better. 0:58:31.360 --> 0:58:34.440 Yeah, they absolutely do, and you also deserve better. 0:58:34.800 --> 0:58:38.920 Yeah. Yeah, we have better, We've made better, we're going 0:58:39.000 --> 0:58:42.560 to create better. But it would have been nice to 0:58:42.560 --> 0:58:43.960 have what we thought we were getting. 0:58:44.080 --> 0:58:45.240 Yeah. 0:58:45.480 --> 0:58:48.960 Speaking of that is, are there ways for listeners to 0:58:49.880 --> 0:58:50.720 reach out and help? 0:58:51.360 --> 0:58:55.160 So right now we have a link tree. It's a 0:58:55.160 --> 0:58:57.960 little bit bare bones because this happens so much sooner 0:58:58.000 --> 0:59:01.640 than it was supposed to. Yeah, a gofund me that 0:59:01.760 --> 0:59:05.080 is for worker stability. Not all of us are going 0:59:05.120 --> 0:59:07.600 to qualify for unemployment, and it's going to be a 0:59:07.600 --> 0:59:11.640 while before we can find new jobs because ecolsis clinics 0:59:11.840 --> 0:59:18.320 and being transgendered. Just it's a tough combination, yep. But 0:59:18.960 --> 0:59:22.400 we also have an email for anyone to reach out 0:59:22.440 --> 0:59:25.000 to if they have questions for like if our patients 0:59:25.040 --> 0:59:27.240 are trying to contact us, or if they need somewhere 0:59:27.280 --> 0:59:30.600 new to go. If we have any electrologists in the 0:59:30.600 --> 0:59:33.760 community that have openings, we would love to know. So 0:59:33.840 --> 0:59:34.960 we can send people to you. 0:59:35.400 --> 0:59:35.640 Yeah. 0:59:35.640 --> 0:59:41.320 Absolutely, if anyone who has knowledge starting cooperatives, that's also 0:59:41.320 --> 0:59:44.240 a resource we're really interested in. We want to do 0:59:44.320 --> 0:59:47.440 this right and we want to talk to the people 0:59:47.440 --> 0:59:48.920 that have experience doing it. 0:59:49.360 --> 0:59:49.600 Yeah. 0:59:49.680 --> 0:59:51.440 Do you have anything else that you want to make 0:59:51.480 --> 0:59:52.120 sure people know? 0:59:53.080 --> 0:59:53.160 So? 0:59:54.080 --> 0:59:54.920 There are a. 0:59:54.880 --> 1:00:01.520 Couple of different electrology associations that clinics can align themselves with. 1:00:02.360 --> 1:00:05.240 One of the ones that I'm thinking of is called 1:00:05.480 --> 1:00:12.440 the American Electrology Association or Electrolysis, and they have a 1:00:12.680 --> 1:00:18.640 code of ethics and standards that they require the businesses 1:00:18.640 --> 1:00:22.520 that are partnered with them to adhere to. It's an 1:00:22.520 --> 1:00:25.760 association that you have to pay a subscription fee to, 1:00:26.640 --> 1:00:32.240 but in turn, you get resources for your business and 1:00:32.680 --> 1:00:35.680 are able to have somewhere to reach out to when 1:00:35.720 --> 1:00:39.560 you have questions about the ethics in your business or 1:00:39.560 --> 1:00:43.040 how things are being run. I think something really important 1:00:43.040 --> 1:00:47.439 to note is that really you was not partnered with 1:00:47.600 --> 1:00:54.840 any of them, And there are electrology conventions that will 1:00:54.880 --> 1:01:00.480 happen that a whole bunch of different electrologists, surgeons, you know, 1:01:01.040 --> 1:01:05.800 from different places, we'll get together to discuss the health 1:01:05.840 --> 1:01:11.600 care that they're providing and It's from my understanding that 1:01:12.760 --> 1:01:17.400 really you did not have the best reputation in these circles. 1:01:17.840 --> 1:01:18.360 Yeah. 1:01:19.080 --> 1:01:22.520 I mean, the truth is near the end. Really you 1:01:22.640 --> 1:01:25.920 was having to form their own education program. They were 1:01:25.920 --> 1:01:31.440 forming their own school because their connection with Zapmaster and 1:01:31.520 --> 1:01:36.680 with the rest of the electrologist community was just so poor, 1:01:37.320 --> 1:01:39.360 like they couldn't maintain it. 1:01:39.640 --> 1:01:39.840 Yeah. 1:01:40.800 --> 1:01:46.320 But for the patients, finding a clinic that is associated 1:01:46.960 --> 1:01:52.720 with one of those associations provides them an extra level 1:01:52.800 --> 1:01:59.200 of protection, especially since Washington State is not licensed for electrolysis. 1:02:00.120 --> 1:02:03.000 Is a really really good point. If you are a 1:02:03.040 --> 1:02:06.680 patient and you've heard what was going on behind the scenes, 1:02:06.720 --> 1:02:09.520 it real you and you're concerned about continuing your care, 1:02:10.600 --> 1:02:13.960 one of the ways to protect yourself against the practices 1:02:14.560 --> 1:02:17.480 that you want to avoid is by finding a clinic 1:02:17.520 --> 1:02:22.560 that's associated with one of these professional institutions correct somewhere 1:02:22.560 --> 1:02:26.400 that has standards you have to meet. Yeah. 1:02:26.760 --> 1:02:28.560 Yeah, and I think I think that's a good place 1:02:28.600 --> 1:02:34.320 to end with. You know, the twin promises of workers 1:02:34.320 --> 1:02:36.920 being able to do their jobs and care for the communities, 1:02:36.920 --> 1:02:39.480 and communities being able to get the care that they need. 1:02:39.640 --> 1:02:44.400 How Yeah, this system simply delivers neither of them, and 1:02:44.480 --> 1:02:45.840 the only way out of it is to fight for 1:02:45.880 --> 1:02:46.520 a better one. 1:02:46.680 --> 1:02:49.840 We're swinging well I can say that. 1:02:50.160 --> 1:02:52.200 Yeah, I mean. 1:02:52.120 --> 1:02:54.360 Our group is full of fighters. 1:02:54.960 --> 1:02:59.480 I'm hopeful I am too, and every step of the way, 1:02:59.640 --> 1:03:03.959 every action I have taken has been from a love 1:03:04.240 --> 1:03:07.520 for my patients and the work that I do and 1:03:08.160 --> 1:03:09.440 intend to continue doing. 1:03:09.680 --> 1:03:14.400 Hell yeah, Absolutely, I'm pretty excited to close this chapter 1:03:14.680 --> 1:03:17.560 and start the new one where we can only go up. 1:03:18.440 --> 1:03:22.600 Yeah, hell yeah, hell yeah. Thank you to both so 1:03:22.720 --> 1:03:24.240 much for coming on the show. 1:03:24.440 --> 1:03:27.400 Thank you for having us. Hopefully this was exciting as 1:03:27.440 --> 1:03:27.840 part one. 1:03:29.880 --> 1:03:33.640 Yeah yeah, thank you so much. Yeah, I'm happy to 1:03:33.800 --> 1:03:37.479 and hopefully we get to talk to you all again when, 1:03:37.800 --> 1:03:40.000 like the co Op starts should be lovely. 1:03:40.160 --> 1:03:43.200 Absolutely. Part three will be about our successful co Op beginnings. 1:03:43.280 --> 1:03:46.320 Hell yeah, hell yeah, looking forward to it. 1:03:46.640 --> 1:04:06.520 Hello yeah, hello everyone, unwelcome to it could happened here. 1:04:06.880 --> 1:04:08.920 My name is Dana al Kurd, and I'm a researcher 1:04:08.960 --> 1:04:12.240 and analyst of Arab and Palestinian politics. Today I wanted 1:04:12.240 --> 1:04:15.360 to talk about Western Sahara and the Moroccan occupation of 1:04:15.360 --> 1:04:19.120 Western Sahara. I'm taking this opportunity because Morocco is in 1:04:19.160 --> 1:04:21.800 the news, specifically for the World Cup, but it's always 1:04:21.840 --> 1:04:23.680 a good opportunity when Morocco is in the news to 1:04:23.800 --> 1:04:27.080 bring up this issue and to talk about the ongoing 1:04:27.080 --> 1:04:29.880 occupation of this territory. Now Western s he Hera, for 1:04:29.880 --> 1:04:33.080 those who are unfamiliar, is often called Africa's last colony. 1:04:33.600 --> 1:04:36.960 It's been contested between the Saharawi indigenous people and the 1:04:37.000 --> 1:04:39.640 Moroccan government since Spain withdrew from the territory in nineteen 1:04:39.680 --> 1:04:42.680 seventy five. Now, Morocco took over most of the territory 1:04:42.680 --> 1:04:45.280 and fought a war with the Polisaria Front, which is 1:04:45.400 --> 1:04:50.400 a liberation movement that represents the Saharawi people backed by 1:04:50.440 --> 1:04:53.600 other neighbors of Morocco, including Algeria, and it fought a 1:04:53.640 --> 1:04:56.919 sixteen year war for independence before there was a nineteen 1:04:56.960 --> 1:05:00.000 ninety one seasfire. Now the ceasefire collapsed in twenty twenty 1:05:00.320 --> 1:05:03.160 and there was a un promised referendum on self determination 1:05:03.560 --> 1:05:07.720 that never happened. So today Morocco controls roughly eighty percent 1:05:07.760 --> 1:05:09.720 of the territory and there's still hundreds of thousands of 1:05:09.720 --> 1:05:13.800 Saharawi refugees that remain in refugee camps in Algeria. The 1:05:13.880 --> 1:05:18.720 United States accepted and recognized Morocco's sovereignty over Western Sahara 1:05:19.000 --> 1:05:21.880 in exchange for Morocco signing a peace agreement with Israel. 1:05:21.880 --> 1:05:24.840 So that happened with the Abraham Courts. Now recently, through 1:05:24.920 --> 1:05:27.640 US led diplomacy, there was a twenty twenty five UN 1:05:27.680 --> 1:05:32.560 Security Council resolution that pushed for Moroccan autonomy rather than 1:05:32.600 --> 1:05:36.720 Saharawe independence as the basis for resolving this conflict. So 1:05:36.880 --> 1:05:39.520 to talk more about this issue, I thought it would 1:05:39.560 --> 1:05:42.400 be a good opportunity to get the perspective of a 1:05:42.440 --> 1:05:46.400 Saharawi person and someone who is very embedded in the 1:05:46.480 --> 1:05:50.440 issue and has lived experience. So I spoke today with 1:05:50.640 --> 1:05:54.240 Mahmad Saem Murad, who is the co founder of Saharawi Voice. 1:05:54.560 --> 1:05:57.280 This is a collective of citizen journalists and filmmakers based 1:05:57.320 --> 1:06:00.520 in the Western Sahara refugee camps in southwest Algeria. And 1:06:00.560 --> 1:06:03.800 this collective basically is a way to provide a platform 1:06:03.840 --> 1:06:07.520 for Saharawis to share their challenges, experiences and hopes with 1:06:07.560 --> 1:06:10.960 an international audience, while equipping Sahawi youth with the knowledge 1:06:10.960 --> 1:06:14.560 and tools to advocate effectively for their cause. So I 1:06:14.600 --> 1:06:18.000 spoke some Hama Sadams today to get a Saharawi perspective 1:06:18.040 --> 1:06:20.880 on things. Now, there might be some listeners that don't 1:06:20.880 --> 1:06:24.840 agree with everything that was mentioned, and that's fine. The 1:06:24.960 --> 1:06:27.760 point of this kind of interview is a type of data. 1:06:28.280 --> 1:06:33.200 How do people see this issue from this perspective? So, 1:06:33.280 --> 1:06:35.480 without further ado, here is my interview with them. Hama 1:06:35.480 --> 1:06:40.160 Setum Hamma Sanam, thank you so much for joining us. 1:06:41.000 --> 1:06:42.360 Thank you for the invitation. 1:06:43.240 --> 1:06:45.680 So I'm going to ask a few questions about recent 1:06:45.920 --> 1:06:50.480 Saharawi politics and events, starting with the UN resolution that 1:06:50.600 --> 1:06:54.760 happened in October Resolution twenty seven ninety seven, which basically 1:06:54.840 --> 1:06:59.880 for the first time made Morocco's autonomy the explicit basis 1:06:59.880 --> 1:07:03.720 for negotiations while kind of ignoring self determination for the 1:07:03.720 --> 1:07:06.920 Saharawi people. A lot of our listeners have never heard 1:07:06.920 --> 1:07:09.720 of this resolution, but people have called it the biggest 1:07:09.720 --> 1:07:11.880 shift in the conflict in decades. So can you tell 1:07:11.920 --> 1:07:15.440 us from a Saharawi perspective what it means that the 1:07:15.560 --> 1:07:20.520 UN and international body that once promised Saharawi self determination 1:07:20.680 --> 1:07:25.480 and referendum starts treating the occupier's plan as the starting point. 1:07:26.080 --> 1:07:33.080 So the resolution itself is after they exhausted all the 1:07:33.120 --> 1:07:38.880 other pressure means the US, the European Union and through 1:07:38.920 --> 1:07:44.760 their own individual country pressure and inconditional support to the Morocco, 1:07:45.360 --> 1:07:48.880 the Yuan was the last resort and they want to 1:07:48.960 --> 1:07:53.080 have a stamp of legality on it. And that's why 1:07:53.120 --> 1:07:59.320 the instrument usually the Yuan and their reality in the 1:07:59.680 --> 1:08:02.560 talk now because we don't have a negotiation yet, we 1:08:02.640 --> 1:08:07.600 have talks that have been sponsored and actually administrated and 1:08:08.520 --> 1:08:13.520 by the US. There now is a sideline. And the 1:08:13.640 --> 1:08:17.920 reason is because the international law is clear and the 1:08:18.400 --> 1:08:24.439 repeated resolution before this, all of them they have called 1:08:24.479 --> 1:08:28.120 and demanded that the final status of the territory should 1:08:28.160 --> 1:08:33.759 be decided through a referendum, and sometimes the referendum was mused, 1:08:33.840 --> 1:08:38.640 but always there has to provide for the self determination 1:08:39.000 --> 1:08:44.160 for the Sahara people. And even like playing with self 1:08:44.160 --> 1:08:49.000 determination for listeners and the referendum itself, it's a huge 1:08:49.120 --> 1:08:54.920 concession from the Sahara side. What a in a just world, 1:08:55.120 --> 1:08:59.200 In ideal world, maroc would be called to withdraw from 1:08:59.240 --> 1:09:04.960 western sahar paying the reparation for the Saharai. And those 1:09:05.439 --> 1:09:09.719 are the steps for a just solution for the Saharai. Past, 1:09:09.880 --> 1:09:13.479 but the Saharai, we're willing to go to the extra mile, 1:09:13.840 --> 1:09:17.760 and they made the concessions. They accepted the referendum, which 1:09:17.800 --> 1:09:21.679 is by the way, we will intel a huge number 1:09:21.720 --> 1:09:25.000 of the settlers will be taken a part in that 1:09:25.200 --> 1:09:28.800 referendum and would not be just the Saharau. But even 1:09:28.840 --> 1:09:33.920 with that is still not sure that they will even 1:09:34.080 --> 1:09:37.160 win the support of their own settlers that they brought 1:09:37.200 --> 1:09:40.880 with them, So they had to ask the US for 1:09:41.000 --> 1:09:44.280 the help. And of course the US is doing this 1:09:44.439 --> 1:09:48.559 as a reward for local for being a sub servant 1:09:48.680 --> 1:09:53.400 stage and the watching dog of the European Union, for 1:09:53.520 --> 1:09:56.320 being willing also to go public with their relationship with 1:09:56.400 --> 1:10:00.160 the Zions State of Israel, because for us, we I've 1:10:00.200 --> 1:10:03.120 been saying this for a long time. Morocco always had 1:10:03.160 --> 1:10:07.640 those relationships. It was the price of recognizing the moroccanity 1:10:07.680 --> 1:10:10.840 of Western Sahara was the price to go public with 1:10:10.960 --> 1:10:16.400 those relationships, and that's what they did. Eventually, Morocco is 1:10:16.439 --> 1:10:20.800 selling themselves to the Doubles to get support and recognization 1:10:21.040 --> 1:10:25.240 for their occupation of Ustern Sahara. They are accepting the 1:10:25.840 --> 1:10:30.160 Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. They are sending their 1:10:30.280 --> 1:10:35.120 money to finals the Peace Board committee that Trunt made. 1:10:35.240 --> 1:10:38.280 They are sending their troops. They are willing to send 1:10:38.320 --> 1:10:43.960 them even to fight resistance as they are doing everything. 1:10:44.040 --> 1:10:50.160 They are building chemicals, drunk chemicals factories, Israeli chemicals factories 1:10:50.160 --> 1:10:55.080 in Morocco. Everything that people couldn't even in nation. Now 1:10:55.120 --> 1:10:59.120 it's a reality. And the prices to win a pac 1:10:59.320 --> 1:11:03.480 and Israel support and they're back in turning the occupation 1:11:03.560 --> 1:11:07.920 into a fatal company. And not just that, but to 1:11:08.080 --> 1:11:11.559 even use you. And in the international law and all 1:11:11.840 --> 1:11:19.640 the international body sompose the occupation of But for us, 1:11:19.960 --> 1:11:24.839 we know that slavery and many other stuff were legal. 1:11:25.479 --> 1:11:30.520 So even if they were to outlaw the self determination, 1:11:30.800 --> 1:11:35.920 outlaw our demand for free and independent state, still will 1:11:35.920 --> 1:11:38.760 not make any difference to us. We are determined to 1:11:38.840 --> 1:11:44.400 fight for what's ours. And as a Sahara ex Saharawi 1:11:44.520 --> 1:11:48.479 leader who passed away told the Bush, because this is 1:11:48.520 --> 1:11:51.519 not the first time. Maybe this is public, but this 1:11:51.640 --> 1:11:54.680 is not the first time US try to do this. 1:11:55.360 --> 1:11:59.840 During George W. Bush's first term, when the Twin Tower 1:12:00.160 --> 1:12:05.000 head and US wanted to just like rush to solve 1:12:05.240 --> 1:12:10.120 or to just finish all other conflicts, everywhere. They wanted 1:12:10.200 --> 1:12:13.799 to resolve the occupation of rust in Saharas and asking 1:12:13.880 --> 1:12:17.200 the Sahara to accept the autonomy lane of Moroccan people. 1:12:17.439 --> 1:12:21.600 And that's it. And they said, like when when the 1:12:21.640 --> 1:12:24.919 Sahara leader was pressed to accept that said will not accepted. 1:12:25.040 --> 1:12:27.519 You know, we are so powerful that you can dictate 1:12:27.560 --> 1:12:30.320 to people how to live, but you are not powerful 1:12:30.400 --> 1:12:33.439 enough to dictate to people how to die. So it's 1:12:33.520 --> 1:12:38.760 the same for us. Nothing changed. Morocco has enjoyed the 1:12:38.800 --> 1:12:41.920 supports for a long time from the majority of the 1:12:42.000 --> 1:12:47.120 country and especially those like called the first world country 1:12:47.160 --> 1:12:51.240 and feel world all that bs. They have always the supports, 1:12:51.320 --> 1:12:55.640 but not on theerground. Nothing changed. Of course, made our independen. 1:12:55.640 --> 1:12:58.520 It's difficulty, but will never make it impossible. 1:12:59.160 --> 1:13:03.240 Yeah, the rights of indigenous people are not determined by 1:13:03.520 --> 1:13:04.360 international law. 1:13:05.040 --> 1:13:09.439 Yeah. Yeah. And Morocco is asking for support and I 1:13:09.640 --> 1:13:13.280 want to legalize their occupation first from Western sat They 1:13:13.280 --> 1:13:16.920 are asking the wrong people and they are waiting the 1:13:16.960 --> 1:13:22.120 support from that. And yeah, the teacher and their biggest 1:13:22.200 --> 1:13:27.400 sponsors are friends with all its colonism atrocity in all 1:13:27.520 --> 1:13:32.800 Africa and other places. And the US, who was a 1:13:32.880 --> 1:13:36.200 country that was built on the genocide of indigenous people. 1:13:36.240 --> 1:13:39.080 So they are there, they are. 1:13:39.680 --> 1:13:40.479 In the right company. 1:13:40.880 --> 1:13:44.880 Yes, yes, yes, exactly, that's what we Yeah, Saha will 1:13:44.960 --> 1:13:47.400 say like if someone gives you advice, you have to 1:13:47.439 --> 1:13:54.439 look at their house and if they are abiding by 1:13:54.479 --> 1:13:57.679 the advice, they are giving you a nuts. So yeah, 1:13:58.320 --> 1:14:02.040 the market choose the the right mass and the right 1:14:02.120 --> 1:14:06.560 sponsors to continue its occupation and yeah, graduates from the 1:14:06.840 --> 1:14:15.520 occupation in the university. 1:14:19.000 --> 1:14:21.640 So for our listeners, I want to also kind of 1:14:21.680 --> 1:14:25.759 specify that this February, after the UN resolution, the US 1:14:25.920 --> 1:14:28.360 can be in secret talks in Madrid between Morocco, Algeria, 1:14:28.400 --> 1:14:31.919 Mauritania and the Pulsario overseen by Trump's African advisor. 1:14:32.320 --> 1:14:32.719 Yeah. 1:14:32.800 --> 1:14:36.880 Now it's being negotiated behind closed doors. How are ordinary 1:14:36.880 --> 1:14:40.479 is always especially in the camps. What is their relationship 1:14:40.520 --> 1:14:43.080 right now to these negotiations and to the Pulsaria leadership. 1:14:43.600 --> 1:14:48.639 Yeah, so that's the talk I refer because negotiation has 1:14:49.080 --> 1:14:53.120 to start after you established a framework for what to negotiate, 1:14:53.520 --> 1:14:58.600 and until now that hasn't happened, so that more accurately 1:14:58.640 --> 1:15:01.559 should be described as tall or you know, early stages 1:15:01.640 --> 1:15:06.080 of talk and meetings instead of negotiation, because negotiation then 1:15:06.120 --> 1:15:09.200 when you have a framework for the things that you 1:15:09.320 --> 1:15:14.479 want to achieve and the demands of two parties and 1:15:13.760 --> 1:15:17.439 uh and this case that we haven't even seen one 1:15:17.479 --> 1:15:22.799 photo of the tool negotiating parties, and that's very obvious 1:15:22.840 --> 1:15:27.360 because it shows just how different and how how far 1:15:27.520 --> 1:15:31.160 from each other. And the US came with the misconception 1:15:31.280 --> 1:15:34.639 that they think they just like, can't rush this into 1:15:34.680 --> 1:15:38.800 solutions and be done with it. And when they saw 1:15:38.800 --> 1:15:44.200 a resistance from the from the Sahara negotiation team and 1:15:44.320 --> 1:15:49.040 also for the record, also Algeria hesitance to accept them 1:15:49.040 --> 1:15:55.160 posing of all those solutions, they started to reconsider. And 1:15:55.240 --> 1:15:59.639 we have many statements from Mostart Bulls, advisor for North 1:15:59.680 --> 1:16:04.440 Africa and Middle East or in North Africa, where he's 1:16:04.560 --> 1:16:08.280 saying this seems to be more difficult than what we 1:16:08.400 --> 1:16:12.280 early imagine, and you know, starts to reconsider his positions. 1:16:12.640 --> 1:16:16.280 As to your question, the Saharah in general, the vast 1:16:16.320 --> 1:16:20.160 majority of the Saharawi consider the policario to be a 1:16:20.240 --> 1:16:23.960 liberation movement and their representative. And even if they don't 1:16:24.000 --> 1:16:27.559 have opposed or work in a certain they consider themselves 1:16:27.600 --> 1:16:31.320 to be a policerio member. That doesn't mean we agree 1:16:31.479 --> 1:16:36.760 with all policario or we don't have a different opinion 1:16:36.920 --> 1:16:41.720 about how things should be managed and how the saharawikas 1:16:41.760 --> 1:16:47.360 should be administrated and how to deal with many things. 1:16:47.560 --> 1:16:50.640 That there is a huge and age gap between the 1:16:51.479 --> 1:16:55.160 first generation of police. Are that the vast majority of 1:16:55.520 --> 1:16:58.800 those are the members now and are at the top 1:16:58.840 --> 1:17:02.599 of the leadership. Are people who started the police? Are it? So? 1:17:02.640 --> 1:17:04.600 I was talking about people who have been in the 1:17:04.760 --> 1:17:08.760 leadership position for fifty years, So of course there is 1:17:08.800 --> 1:17:11.800 an obvious need for them to step down and be 1:17:11.960 --> 1:17:16.120 replaced by younger generations, by people who have the ability 1:17:16.800 --> 1:17:21.200 both the physical and the mental and right judgment of 1:17:21.320 --> 1:17:24.160 the time and of the means that should be employed 1:17:24.200 --> 1:17:29.320 to accelerate the liberation. First, Sahara, we see them. But 1:17:29.479 --> 1:17:34.320 the negotiation, as you said, it's happening behind the closed door. 1:17:34.840 --> 1:17:39.360 There are no press conferences. We are dependent on the 1:17:39.360 --> 1:17:42.600 statement from there and there to try to build a 1:17:42.640 --> 1:17:46.280 bigger picture of what's happening. But the biggest takeaway and 1:17:47.040 --> 1:17:50.920 the conclusion from the three rounds that took a place 1:17:50.960 --> 1:17:54.559 so far, two in Washington and one in Madrid, there's 1:17:54.640 --> 1:17:58.200 nothing measure is happening, except the fact that the US 1:17:58.280 --> 1:18:02.000 is starting to think that it's it's it's more difficult 1:18:02.080 --> 1:18:04.840 and it's going to take more time than what they 1:18:05.280 --> 1:18:08.920 initially imagine. So that's the biggest time I think that 1:18:09.439 --> 1:18:13.080 and the Morocco the autonomy plan they had it in 1:18:13.120 --> 1:18:17.479 a three paces paper that was their proposal for a solution, 1:18:17.640 --> 1:18:22.880 and France and you asked them for a more extended 1:18:23.000 --> 1:18:26.759 version where they have to outline details, and they haven't 1:18:27.040 --> 1:18:30.920 showed or produced anything yet. So that's I think they 1:18:30.960 --> 1:18:36.120 are closest ally and supporter and formal colonizer as Francis 1:18:36.320 --> 1:18:39.800 is working closely with them to develop that that proposal 1:18:40.200 --> 1:18:44.760 I see for that doesn't change a lot because you know, 1:18:45.680 --> 1:18:48.639 if we wanted autonomy would have been better up with 1:18:48.640 --> 1:18:52.600 with Spain. And why would we like say, say not 1:18:52.800 --> 1:18:57.160 to to Spain all to accepted fifty years later to 1:18:57.240 --> 1:19:02.760 a craft monarch and the paper to the Zion the 1:19:02.840 --> 1:19:08.800 standard France. Yeah, our occupied is enjoying their support or 1:19:09.040 --> 1:19:10.760 nothing new in Dada San. 1:19:11.680 --> 1:19:14.040 I mean, it's it's funny that you you mentioned that 1:19:14.120 --> 1:19:17.120 the United States and the African Advisors is starting to 1:19:17.120 --> 1:19:20.200 recognize it's not as easy. I mean, you know, very 1:19:20.240 --> 1:19:23.840 surprising that the Trump imgstoration advisors thought it was going 1:19:23.880 --> 1:19:26.479 to be easier than it is, but obviously not. Yeah, 1:19:37.120 --> 1:19:39.800 I wanted to ask a question also about kind of 1:19:39.880 --> 1:19:42.280 daily life right now for Saharawi's You know, it's been 1:19:42.320 --> 1:19:45.320 fifty years after the Madrid Accords, you still have Harawis 1:19:45.400 --> 1:19:48.600 under Moroccan control in the territory. And then there's of 1:19:48.600 --> 1:19:50.080 course the refugee camps in Algeria. 1:19:51.120 --> 1:19:53.080 Now that the diplomatic. 1:19:52.840 --> 1:19:57.840 Horizon seems to be narrowing, what's life like for people 1:19:57.840 --> 1:20:01.200 who are fighting for Saharawi in dependence? So like human 1:20:01.320 --> 1:20:04.080 rights defenders, the women, the students, you know, I know 1:20:04.160 --> 1:20:07.160 they face a lot of repression in Moroccan territory, but 1:20:07.280 --> 1:20:09.600 maybe you can describe to the listeners, Yeah, what the 1:20:09.600 --> 1:20:10.320 conditions are like. 1:20:11.240 --> 1:20:15.040 Yeah, I know, it's probably not something intended to do, 1:20:15.120 --> 1:20:18.920 but it's not Moroccan territory. It's Western Saharay occupied by 1:20:18.960 --> 1:20:19.880 moroccle my mistake. 1:20:19.960 --> 1:20:22.240 Yes, yes, So the. 1:20:22.400 --> 1:20:26.960 Situation there is difficulty the territory. There is a media 1:20:27.040 --> 1:20:30.040 black black heide that's in posing the territory, So non 1:20:30.080 --> 1:20:35.000 international observer or a journalistill allowed to access the territory 1:20:35.040 --> 1:20:38.360 and to see the situation on the ground. The people 1:20:38.479 --> 1:20:43.400 there are morocco Is using both the stick and the carts, 1:20:43.920 --> 1:20:47.880 so trying to buy their allusions to the occupation, try 1:20:47.920 --> 1:20:51.360 to reward those who are willing to give up their 1:20:51.560 --> 1:20:56.600 political rights and so giving them out, putting them on 1:20:56.720 --> 1:21:01.880 social welfare projects and those it's not a lot, but 1:21:02.280 --> 1:21:06.679 enough to survive. And on the other hand has jail 1:21:06.920 --> 1:21:11.639 and depression and the job cutting people from their job 1:21:11.800 --> 1:21:15.880 and making their life as miserable as possible, to the 1:21:16.040 --> 1:21:19.840 to the point either they are announced their activism or 1:21:20.240 --> 1:21:24.400 leave the territory, and in some cases there are sentenced 1:21:24.479 --> 1:21:28.479 to life in prison, which has happened to many Saharawi 1:21:28.560 --> 1:21:32.400 activists who have a group called their Music Group have 1:21:32.560 --> 1:21:36.479 been in jail since two thousand and ten. And yeah 1:21:36.600 --> 1:21:40.080 there are some of them are are serving thirty years, 1:21:40.080 --> 1:21:43.479 some of them twenty, some of them life sentence, and 1:21:43.680 --> 1:21:47.799 a few of them were released recently. So the situation 1:21:47.960 --> 1:21:53.400 is very difficult, and we're very deplorable, and what is 1:21:53.560 --> 1:21:56.839 next to even difficult. That's how they're in the occupied 1:21:56.920 --> 1:22:00.840 territory are out numbered, so there are three morecanslers to each. 1:22:01.479 --> 1:22:05.880 Those are very conservative estimates, it could be more so, 1:22:06.240 --> 1:22:11.920 anything that's civil disobedience strategy or tactics will be would 1:22:11.960 --> 1:22:16.600 be dimity unsuccessful and would not produce any results. So 1:22:17.000 --> 1:22:20.400 it's very difficult situation. But none the less, there are 1:22:20.560 --> 1:22:26.160 still or are standing. Background are or still despite all 1:22:26.240 --> 1:22:30.559 the oppression and all the economic warfare that Mark is 1:22:30.560 --> 1:22:36.920 waging against them, and the even social astralization to try 1:22:36.960 --> 1:22:40.439 to even threaten people around you. So if you are 1:22:40.479 --> 1:22:44.280 an activist, even your father, your people around you, they 1:22:44.320 --> 1:22:48.120 will be laid from their job just as the percussions 1:22:48.160 --> 1:22:51.720 for your activism, So they can punish you if you 1:22:51.800 --> 1:22:55.120 don't care about or own self like they punish you 1:22:55.240 --> 1:22:58.800 through the people or inner circle, and your pop are 1:22:58.840 --> 1:23:03.200 close to you. So it's very difficult. And on the 1:23:03.240 --> 1:23:07.880 other hand, also the infrastructure there are are not are 1:23:07.960 --> 1:23:10.799 not as fancy as Morocco try to claim. There aren't 1:23:11.160 --> 1:23:16.560 a single university, and Morocco is building more of jails. 1:23:16.600 --> 1:23:20.160 And even the presenter Sahara, they sentenced them and they 1:23:20.400 --> 1:23:23.519 when they're serving their senses, they put them far away 1:23:23.600 --> 1:23:26.160 to punish their family, to make them pay a lot 1:23:26.200 --> 1:23:29.000 of money and travel inside Morocco to be able to 1:23:29.120 --> 1:23:33.320 visit their loved ones instead of having them close by 1:23:33.479 --> 1:23:37.959 artists and occupied Western Sahara. So the situation is very difficult. 1:23:38.040 --> 1:23:42.880 But those who are choosing to stand their ground are 1:23:42.920 --> 1:23:45.840 a reader of history and they are aware of the 1:23:45.920 --> 1:23:50.080 price that has to be paid an order to obtain 1:23:50.439 --> 1:23:54.559 our freedom and our independence. And the darker it gets, 1:23:54.640 --> 1:23:58.559 we know that closer that there will be another morning 1:23:58.680 --> 1:24:02.519 that's coming behind that. So we have been here way 1:24:02.640 --> 1:24:07.439 longer before Trump administration and his advisor, and we will 1:24:07.479 --> 1:24:11.960 be here. So it's the Morocca. I think that they 1:24:12.000 --> 1:24:16.120 think this is their golden opportunities and that they can 1:24:16.280 --> 1:24:21.800 use everything including the international law and international institution and 1:24:22.080 --> 1:24:27.599 body like the johan to impose their accupation and Western Saharabad. Again, 1:24:27.640 --> 1:24:30.120 they are misguided. At the end of the day, they 1:24:30.160 --> 1:24:32.080 would have to put out the table and. 1:24:32.080 --> 1:24:34.960 Try to find I think from a pasting in perspective, 1:24:35.120 --> 1:24:39.160 like the genocide in Gaza has clarified that the international 1:24:39.160 --> 1:24:43.439 system is not functioning, So you know, they're trying to 1:24:43.520 --> 1:24:46.080 use the international system. Countries like Morocco are trying to 1:24:46.120 --> 1:24:51.040 use the international system for legitimizing control. But the international 1:24:51.040 --> 1:24:54.880 system itself needs to be restructured, and I do also 1:24:54.880 --> 1:24:57.879 want to apologize. I meant Moroccan control of the territory, 1:24:58.160 --> 1:25:02.720 so I sincerely apologize for that. Yes, I also wanted 1:25:02.760 --> 1:25:05.920 to ask because we, I mean, we have listeners everywhere, 1:25:05.960 --> 1:25:09.200 but especially for listeners in the United States. You know, 1:25:09.320 --> 1:25:12.320 our government here is driving this process. What would you 1:25:12.360 --> 1:25:15.200 want listeners in the United States to take away from 1:25:15.200 --> 1:25:16.320 this conversation or to do? 1:25:17.560 --> 1:25:21.000 To be honest, I have been to the States one time, 1:25:21.320 --> 1:25:26.040 and I have met many Americans, and I am a 1:25:26.200 --> 1:25:29.040 lead the reader of their media, and I follow their 1:25:29.960 --> 1:25:35.840 their famous podcasts and TV channels and Twitter, you know, discussion. 1:25:36.000 --> 1:25:39.280 And it's very obvious that American they don't care about 1:25:39.320 --> 1:25:43.200 what's going on outside America. They care about the prices 1:25:43.240 --> 1:25:47.800 of oil, all of house prices, and their rents and 1:25:48.160 --> 1:25:52.840 the college is And it's okay. I think it's okay 1:25:52.880 --> 1:25:55.760 to a degree when your country is not involved in 1:25:56.040 --> 1:26:00.320 maintaining and supporting and that's your own taxes are used 1:26:00.360 --> 1:26:07.520 to maintain and support and finance genocide and other military occupation. Otherwise, 1:26:07.960 --> 1:26:11.920 then you have the luxury of ignoring what's outside. But 1:26:12.120 --> 1:26:16.160 when it's not, you can just like put your head 1:26:16.240 --> 1:26:19.800 in the ground and imagine and just going to care 1:26:19.840 --> 1:26:25.719 about what's happening here domestically and foreign policy. What's happening 1:26:25.800 --> 1:26:29.360 there is far away there, I don't so I would 1:26:29.400 --> 1:26:33.720 like them to inform themselves about Western Sahara, understand that 1:26:34.400 --> 1:26:38.880 they have to push their government and functionally to the 1:26:38.920 --> 1:26:42.960 Western Sahara. At least, we don't have a politician in 1:26:43.000 --> 1:26:47.160 the United States who thinks that the occupation of Western 1:26:47.200 --> 1:26:51.200 Sahara will accelerate the arrival of the Messiah and that 1:26:51.880 --> 1:26:55.440 it's far away, it has nothing to do with the ideology, 1:26:55.760 --> 1:26:59.679 with the religion, believe with anything like that, and would 1:26:59.680 --> 1:27:05.920 be easier, supposedly and will be less hesitant politician to 1:27:06.040 --> 1:27:09.840 take the right stand and the right position if enough 1:27:09.920 --> 1:27:13.439 people know there and they have a responsibility to learn 1:27:13.720 --> 1:27:18.040 and to understand and that their money and their politicians 1:27:18.080 --> 1:27:23.160 and their foreign policy are taking tools on people past, 1:27:23.560 --> 1:27:28.040 present and the future in a very practical way. And 1:27:28.400 --> 1:27:32.160 they don't have the luxury to be ignorant or to 1:27:32.240 --> 1:27:35.400 be to have the apathy they have to just not 1:27:35.600 --> 1:27:38.720 care about what's going on. They should care because their 1:27:38.840 --> 1:27:43.519 money and their political support and their country resources are 1:27:43.640 --> 1:27:47.639 used against many other people and then anything happens. We 1:27:47.760 --> 1:27:51.599 have the Americans acting like we don't know what's happened. 1:27:51.600 --> 1:27:54.759 Why the rest of the world hates you. People hate 1:27:55.120 --> 1:27:58.759 you for the million of the things that your government 1:27:58.960 --> 1:28:03.040 and your silence has done and has caused everywhere else. 1:28:03.360 --> 1:28:06.519 So they have to learn they have a responsibility. They 1:28:06.560 --> 1:28:09.639 have to speak to their local politician and their their 1:28:09.680 --> 1:28:14.680 representative in Congress and Senate and ask them just to 1:28:14.720 --> 1:28:18.840 do the basic thing, to follow the international law and 1:28:19.040 --> 1:28:24.240 start supporting my local militarily and politically and involved in 1:28:24.400 --> 1:28:28.880 them to continue their occupations and prolonging the suffering of 1:28:28.920 --> 1:28:34.120 the Sahai. That's the very bare minimum. 1:28:34.160 --> 1:28:35.160 Well, thank you so much. 1:28:35.200 --> 1:28:37.840 On that note, I will link Sharawi Voice in the 1:28:37.840 --> 1:28:41.240 show notes. Yeah, I think that people can can learn 1:28:41.240 --> 1:28:44.000 more about the work that your collective does. And thank 1:28:44.040 --> 1:28:45.479 you for making the time. 1:28:46.080 --> 1:28:49.280 Thank you for the invitation as an honor. Thank you. 1:28:49.320 --> 1:28:50.200 Take care, Take care. 1:29:03.120 --> 1:29:05.599 Picture going to the grocery store a few years from now. 1:29:05.800 --> 1:29:08.639 You push your car, grab your staples, scan and head 1:29:08.680 --> 1:29:11.679 out the door. Not much to it, but unlocking your car, 1:29:11.760 --> 1:29:14.599 you hear a faint buzzing sound. Looking around, you don't 1:29:14.600 --> 1:29:17.599 see anything yet it gets louder. Then you look up. 1:29:17.960 --> 1:29:20.120 A drone shoots out toward the street, where you spot 1:29:20.160 --> 1:29:22.800 a man running down the sidewalk with a full backpack. 1:29:23.160 --> 1:29:25.759 They both slip out a view behind some overgrown hedges. 1:29:26.160 --> 1:29:28.920 Then come the sirens. As you drive away, you see 1:29:29.000 --> 1:29:32.000 multiple cops on top of a man, one pulling objects 1:29:32.040 --> 1:29:35.680 out of his backpack. Tags still dangling off a shoplifter. 1:29:36.640 --> 1:29:39.040 Welcome to it could happen here. I'm Kevin Foster, an 1:29:39.080 --> 1:29:41.839 independent journalist and your host for this two part series 1:29:41.880 --> 1:29:45.599 on retail crime, ice, and some deeply concerning policy making 1:29:45.640 --> 1:29:49.200 its way through Congress. In this image of a shoplifter, 1:29:49.439 --> 1:29:51.840 it isn't really from the future. In late June of 1:29:51.880 --> 1:29:54.800 this year, police in Redmond, Washington used the drone to 1:29:54.880 --> 1:29:57.559 track down an alleged shoplifter who had left a store. 1:29:57.920 --> 1:30:00.080 If you live in a major city, you've probably are 1:30:00.120 --> 1:30:03.240 you witness the bolstering of security in retail stores. The 1:30:03.320 --> 1:30:06.919 ungodly number of items locked up behind glass, security guards 1:30:07.120 --> 1:30:10.080 block cameras in the parking lot. This is an industry 1:30:10.120 --> 1:30:13.360 in its own right, commonly referred to as loss prevention, 1:30:13.800 --> 1:30:17.839 and it's surged after the pandemic the national retail Federation 1:30:18.120 --> 1:30:20.439 or NRF for short, who I'll be talking a lot 1:30:20.439 --> 1:30:23.799 about today puts on a yearly conference known as NRF 1:30:23.880 --> 1:30:26.960 Protect where they bring together all the loss prevention slash 1:30:27.000 --> 1:30:31.040 asset protection bigwigs to show off new tech and security strategies. 1:30:31.400 --> 1:30:34.360 Here's the clip of a senior product manager for Amazon 1:30:34.439 --> 1:30:37.080 at the twenty twenty six event, part in the awful 1:30:37.080 --> 1:30:38.280 corporate background music. 1:30:38.720 --> 1:30:40.439 Gotta say, the most unique thing that I saw in 1:30:40.439 --> 1:30:42.040 the expo hall was the robot. 1:30:42.280 --> 1:30:44.519 Seen it on TV, and this was the first time 1:30:44.560 --> 1:30:46.160 I saw it in person. I was like, oh, these 1:30:46.320 --> 1:30:49.040 exactly real. To paint you a picture. 1:30:49.080 --> 1:30:53.360 The video features retail lobbyists, tech giants, and police investigators. 1:30:53.560 --> 1:30:57.080 They show off drones, cameras, people aiming guns, others shooting 1:30:57.160 --> 1:31:00.000 some type of paintballs at hanging targets, and of course 1:31:00.320 --> 1:31:03.160 multiple robots, including one that looks like a mini tank 1:31:03.320 --> 1:31:07.800 called Romeo but spelled like roaming around. Don't worry though 1:31:07.880 --> 1:31:11.120 this quote physical AI on patrol can only go ten 1:31:11.160 --> 1:31:13.880 miles per hour and it has a big led smile 1:31:13.960 --> 1:31:17.200 across the front. If you haven't got the drift. NRF 1:31:17.200 --> 1:31:20.519 Protect is like a National rightfle Association convention, but for 1:31:20.560 --> 1:31:24.280 people obsessed with supply chains and storefront scanners. While our 1:31:24.320 --> 1:31:27.400 little tank Romeo likely invokes the strongest image of a 1:31:27.479 --> 1:31:30.519 sci fi dystopia, it's probably the least of our worries. 1:31:30.960 --> 1:31:34.240 An October twenty twenty four article in Loss Prevention Magazine 1:31:34.240 --> 1:31:38.000 states that multiple top ten retailers rely on facial recognition 1:31:38.120 --> 1:31:41.679 for loss prevention, many working with Face First, a company 1:31:41.680 --> 1:31:44.680 that provides AI facial recognition tech with the goal of 1:31:44.720 --> 1:31:48.679 preventing retail crime. In July of this year, Mission Local 1:31:48.720 --> 1:31:51.839 reported on grocery outlets in the Bay Area using facial 1:31:51.880 --> 1:31:55.479 recognition tech from the AI company Safer. Worried about your 1:31:55.479 --> 1:31:59.240 privacy well, Safer's president says that your photo is immediately 1:31:59.280 --> 1:32:03.400 deleted if it doesn't match a watch list of shoplifters. However, 1:32:03.479 --> 1:32:06.400 stores can manually create their own watch list and pool 1:32:06.520 --> 1:32:10.080 data with other retailers. Surely nothing could go wrong there. 1:32:10.920 --> 1:32:14.880 Even excluding AI, retail stores have become a massive surveillance 1:32:14.960 --> 1:32:17.880 black box. Your photo is taken as you go in 1:32:17.960 --> 1:32:20.559 and out. Video cameras are at checkout. They know the 1:32:20.600 --> 1:32:22.599 time you come in, they know what days you shop, 1:32:22.680 --> 1:32:26.200 what you're buying, They know who you are retailers will 1:32:26.320 --> 1:32:29.680 justify this invasion of our privacy through AI robots and 1:32:29.760 --> 1:32:32.960 large scale data collection as necessary for marketing and to 1:32:33.000 --> 1:32:36.360 protect their capital and employees. Still, I wouldn't blame you 1:32:36.400 --> 1:32:39.240 for worrying about where that data is going. After all, 1:32:39.320 --> 1:32:43.160 if police investigators are already attending NRF conventions, and the 1:32:43.240 --> 1:32:46.160 retailers are happy to work with them, why not other 1:32:46.240 --> 1:32:50.080 law enforcement? Why not ICE? As it turns out, Congress 1:32:50.120 --> 1:32:53.559 is having similar thoughts. The House of Representatives just pushed 1:32:53.560 --> 1:32:55.920 a bill forward that could give ICE access to this 1:32:56.080 --> 1:32:59.600 massive surveillance drag net, and there's a bipartisan effort in 1:32:59.600 --> 1:33:02.680 the Senate to include it any National Defense Authorization Act. 1:33:03.120 --> 1:33:05.559 Why would they do this? To answer that question, we 1:33:05.640 --> 1:33:08.360 need to look at a recently hyped phenomenon known as 1:33:08.560 --> 1:33:12.400 organized retail crime. You may have heard the term organized 1:33:12.439 --> 1:33:15.000 retail crime in the past few years, probably on the 1:33:15.000 --> 1:33:17.960 news or from a politician hinting at a hidden crisis 1:33:18.000 --> 1:33:21.200 in our stores. A basic Google Trends report shows use 1:33:21.240 --> 1:33:23.160 of the term is up two hundred percent in the 1:33:23.200 --> 1:33:27.479 past five years versus the five years before. Organized retail crime, 1:33:27.600 --> 1:33:30.960 sometimes referred to as just ORC, is defined by the 1:33:31.000 --> 1:33:34.479 FBI as the large scale theft of retail merchandise with 1:33:34.560 --> 1:33:37.800 the intent to resell the stolen items for financial gain. 1:33:38.479 --> 1:33:40.800 If you've seen the movie I Love Boosters, that's a 1:33:40.800 --> 1:33:44.679 good satirical example, although the definition is actually quite vague, 1:33:44.760 --> 1:33:47.880 which can cause a lot of problems. The outlet Retail 1:33:47.920 --> 1:33:51.439 Dive says the definition is quote neither legal nor precise, 1:33:51.600 --> 1:33:54.799 contributing to uneven reporting on the part of store workers, 1:33:54.960 --> 1:33:58.280 loss prevention staff, and police, which results in it often 1:33:58.320 --> 1:34:00.880 being lumped in with morban aal form of theft such 1:34:00.880 --> 1:34:04.920 as shoplifting, and this begs the question is organized retail 1:34:04.960 --> 1:34:09.400 crime actually a thing? It is, but the threat to businesses, prices, 1:34:09.439 --> 1:34:12.919 and even national security have largely been blown out of proportion. 1:34:13.720 --> 1:34:16.519 To get a sense of those proportions, here's Iowa Senator 1:34:16.600 --> 1:34:20.040 Chuck Grassley at a Senate hearing on organized retail theft. 1:34:20.320 --> 1:34:22.920 He's the chief sponsor of the bill I mentioned earlier, 1:34:23.040 --> 1:34:26.679 known as the Combating Organized Retail Crime Act or CORKA 1:34:26.840 --> 1:34:27.400 for short. 1:34:28.040 --> 1:34:36.040 The reality is some of the worst criminal organizations, including cartels, terrorists, 1:34:36.080 --> 1:34:41.000 and human traffickers, use this type of crime, funding their 1:34:41.040 --> 1:34:45.920 misdeeds or launder ill gotten proceeds. 1:34:47.000 --> 1:34:49.320 Side note, after hearing how this guy talks, I had 1:34:49.320 --> 1:34:52.439 to look up how old he is. He's ninety two 1:34:52.680 --> 1:34:55.479 fucking years old. This old bat that was born in 1:34:55.520 --> 1:34:59.280 the Great Depression is probably being lobbied till his heart fails. 1:35:00.000 --> 1:35:01.920 We're going to get into the issues with painting this 1:35:02.040 --> 1:35:05.960 all as a national security crisis later. But speaking of lobbying, 1:35:06.240 --> 1:35:09.240 the notoriety of organized retail crime is due in no 1:35:09.360 --> 1:35:12.800 small part to the National Retail Federation, the host of 1:35:12.840 --> 1:35:16.759 the aforementioned Loss Prevention Conference and the largest retail lobbying 1:35:16.800 --> 1:35:19.799 group in the nation. The NRF has spent about fifty 1:35:19.800 --> 1:35:23.040 million dollars on lobbying since just twenty twenty, according to 1:35:23.120 --> 1:35:26.200 Open Secrets, and they've been the driving force behind the 1:35:26.240 --> 1:35:29.519 Combating Organized Retail Crime Act, which passed the House of 1:35:29.560 --> 1:35:33.960 Representatives on May twelfth with bipartisan support, including one hundred 1:35:33.960 --> 1:35:36.840 and forty four Democrats, and it may well get lumped 1:35:36.840 --> 1:35:40.040 in with our defense spending this year. CORCA has a 1:35:40.160 --> 1:35:43.280 slew of problems, but the general picture is a prosecution 1:35:43.439 --> 1:35:46.679 and police cracked down around this idea of organized crime 1:35:46.760 --> 1:35:50.320 in the retail theft world. Despite what the NRF would 1:35:50.360 --> 1:35:52.400 like you to believe there doesn't appear to be an 1:35:52.520 --> 1:35:55.720 organized retail theft crisis in the US, or really even 1:35:55.760 --> 1:35:59.160 a shoplifting crisis in general. With the exception of some 1:35:59.320 --> 1:36:03.439 large cities, particularly New York City, shoplifting in twenty twenty 1:36:03.439 --> 1:36:06.840 three was actually lower than pre pandemic levels, according to 1:36:06.880 --> 1:36:10.280 the Council on Criminal Justice. In twenty twenty two, the 1:36:10.320 --> 1:36:13.960 Council found retail shrink, the term for lost merchandise from 1:36:14.040 --> 1:36:17.679 theft or operational errors, was about one point six percent, 1:36:17.960 --> 1:36:21.040 the same as in twenty nineteen according to the nrf's 1:36:21.040 --> 1:36:23.960 own data. Before we get too deep, I think it's 1:36:24.000 --> 1:36:27.720 worth noting measures of shrink are also somewhat imprecise, and 1:36:27.800 --> 1:36:30.240 a lot of the accessible data surrounding all of this 1:36:30.400 --> 1:36:34.040 comes directly from the retail lobby, who have an incentive 1:36:34.120 --> 1:36:38.720 to make problems look worse to justify security policing, price increases, 1:36:38.960 --> 1:36:42.720 and cutting corners in inventory management. As you'll see, they 1:36:42.720 --> 1:36:45.960 have some credibility issues as well. You know who else 1:36:46.000 --> 1:36:48.760 may or may not have credibility issues the products and 1:36:48.840 --> 1:37:04.120 services that support this podcast, and we're back. In October 1:37:04.160 --> 1:37:06.840 of twenty twenty three, the NRF claimed to Congress that 1:37:07.000 --> 1:37:10.479 organized retail crime accounted for nearly half of the ninety 1:37:10.520 --> 1:37:13.840 four point five billion dollars in SHRINK in twenty twenty one. 1:37:14.280 --> 1:37:18.120 In reality, Retail Dive found that organized theft accounted for 1:37:18.160 --> 1:37:21.360 about five percent of SHRINK, meaning the NRF was off 1:37:21.439 --> 1:37:25.120 by a literal order of magnitude. How did they arrive 1:37:25.160 --> 1:37:28.120 at such a conclusion. Well, they essentially just took some 1:37:28.160 --> 1:37:32.040 guy's word for it, specifically Ben Dugan, the former president 1:37:32.160 --> 1:37:35.960 of the Coalition of Law Enforcement in Retail, a nonprofit 1:37:36.000 --> 1:37:39.920 whose website currently features a giant, low resolution banner saying 1:37:40.160 --> 1:37:45.479 Vegas Baby, the nation's largest ARC investigative conference. An NRF 1:37:45.520 --> 1:37:49.480 spokesperson specifically said their fifty percent claim was an inference 1:37:49.640 --> 1:37:53.600 made by an analyst based on Dugan's congressional testimony, not 1:37:53.920 --> 1:37:57.920 actual statistics or data. The NRF retracted the claim about 1:37:57.920 --> 1:38:01.320 two months later, but the damage was already done. According 1:38:01.320 --> 1:38:04.559 to the Vera Institute, a nonprofit advocacy group and think 1:38:04.600 --> 1:38:08.400 tank focused on criminal justice reform, The NRF leveraged its 1:38:08.439 --> 1:38:11.800 inaccurate data point in a press release, testified to it 1:38:11.840 --> 1:38:14.479 in congressional hearings, and even spoke about it at a 1:38:14.520 --> 1:38:18.719 press conference with Senator Grassley. The figure, of course, stirred 1:38:18.720 --> 1:38:22.519 panic across the country, fueled by viral social media videos 1:38:22.560 --> 1:38:26.519 showing high profile thefts and retail companies pushing the narrative 1:38:26.560 --> 1:38:30.360 that they are under attack. In some cases, retailers either 1:38:30.400 --> 1:38:33.479 closed or threatened to close stores. For example, in San 1:38:33.520 --> 1:38:37.880 Francisco in twenty twenty one, Walgreens blamed organized retail crime 1:38:37.920 --> 1:38:41.840 for the anticipated closure of five locations. The closures made 1:38:41.840 --> 1:38:45.320 it into the national spotlight, but in reality, the locations 1:38:45.320 --> 1:38:48.800 faced less than two reported shoplifting incidents per month on 1:38:48.920 --> 1:38:52.599 average over the previous five years. Target had a similar 1:38:52.640 --> 1:38:56.559 story in New York, Seattle, and San Francisco, blaming retail 1:38:56.640 --> 1:39:00.360 theft for store closures when nearby locations actually had higher 1:39:00.360 --> 1:39:04.840 incidences of shoplifting. What actually happened to these stores, My 1:39:04.960 --> 1:39:07.599 best guess is the shift to online shopping during the 1:39:07.600 --> 1:39:11.000 pandemic drove down the sales of many brick and mortar locations, 1:39:11.240 --> 1:39:14.480 but rather than project something that could lower their stock valuation, 1:39:14.800 --> 1:39:18.640 retailers blamed it on organized theft. Many took up controversial 1:39:18.680 --> 1:39:22.400 practices such as locking up merchandise, which decreased sales and 1:39:22.479 --> 1:39:27.639 customers satisfaction. Even Walgreen's chief financial officer, James Cahoe, would 1:39:27.720 --> 1:39:31.640 later say they quote cried too much unquote about shoplifting 1:39:31.680 --> 1:39:34.640 when the issue was really overblown. But even with a 1:39:34.720 --> 1:39:38.120 lack of evidence, the NRF and Senator Grassley refused to 1:39:38.160 --> 1:39:41.080 back down from their messaging and legislation, and in a 1:39:41.080 --> 1:39:44.040 lot of ways it worked. Let me play you a 1:39:44.040 --> 1:39:46.719 clip of Gavin Newsom at a press conference in twenty 1:39:46.760 --> 1:39:51.240 twenty four signing legislation intended to combat organize retail crime. 1:39:51.800 --> 1:39:54.679 Here he's surrounded by a number of elected officials, law 1:39:54.720 --> 1:39:58.519 enforcement leaders, and representatives of retail associations. 1:39:58.520 --> 1:40:03.240 The issue organized retail theft, the issue of serial theft, 1:40:03.720 --> 1:40:06.720 the issue that is front and center in the consciousness 1:40:06.760 --> 1:40:10.200 of so many Californians. You see it online social media, 1:40:10.280 --> 1:40:13.120 you see it on the nightly news. This is the 1:40:13.160 --> 1:40:17.600 real deal. Grocers and the retailers understand. 1:40:17.080 --> 1:40:21.160 That after the NRF retracted its inflated claim nearly a 1:40:21.240 --> 1:40:24.680 year prior, organized retail crime was still making headlines and 1:40:24.720 --> 1:40:28.960 considered a very serious issue, serious enough that Newsome included 1:40:29.000 --> 1:40:32.000 three hundred and seventy four million dollars in his twenty 1:40:32.080 --> 1:40:36.519 twenty four budget proposal. To combat retail theft. In that bill, 1:40:36.600 --> 1:40:39.000 which he happened to sign atop a table covered in 1:40:39.080 --> 1:40:43.320 orange home depot buckets, it stiffened both enforcement and penalties 1:40:43.320 --> 1:40:44.280 for retail crime. 1:40:44.600 --> 1:40:45.280 It allowed for. 1:40:45.240 --> 1:40:49.599 The aggregation of theft value from different shoplifting incidents, meaning 1:40:49.600 --> 1:40:51.920 the value of items can be added up to turn 1:40:52.000 --> 1:40:55.800 what would be minor charges into grand theft. It also 1:40:55.840 --> 1:40:59.360 allows police to arrest shoplifters solely based on a witness's 1:40:59.400 --> 1:41:03.479 sworn state or video footage of a crime. Again, surely 1:41:03.520 --> 1:41:06.719 nothing could go wrong with that, but the crackdown didn't 1:41:06.720 --> 1:41:10.240 stop there. In the twenty twenty four general election, California 1:41:10.320 --> 1:41:14.400 voters overwhelmingly approved Prop thirty six, which made key changes 1:41:14.439 --> 1:41:17.519 to how thefts are prosecuted. To Newsom's credit, he did 1:41:17.520 --> 1:41:21.400 not support the proposition. Prior to Prop thirty six, thefts 1:41:21.400 --> 1:41:23.879 of items worth less than nine hundred and fifty dollars 1:41:23.880 --> 1:41:27.439 were considered misdemeanors, but now if the individual has two 1:41:27.560 --> 1:41:31.320 or more past convictions for certain theft crimes such as shoplifting, 1:41:31.640 --> 1:41:34.240 it could be considered a felony, with a sentence of 1:41:34.360 --> 1:41:37.760 up to three years in jail or prison. San Diego's 1:41:37.760 --> 1:41:41.280 District Attorney Summer Stephen really hyped up Prop thirty six 1:41:41.360 --> 1:41:45.240 as an advancement in fighting organized retail crime. She actually 1:41:45.280 --> 1:41:48.720 went on the nrf's podcast talk about this. Yes, they 1:41:48.720 --> 1:41:52.120 have a podcast. It's called Retail Gets Real. It's bad, 1:41:52.479 --> 1:41:54.600 don't check it out. But here she is with the 1:41:54.640 --> 1:41:57.360 host having a little laugh about locking people up. 1:41:57.920 --> 1:42:00.920 So we used to have people with like twenty four 1:42:01.000 --> 1:42:05.640 theft cases. They're all misdemeanors. Some thieves bring a calculator 1:42:05.760 --> 1:42:09.600 and they're just under nine hundred and fifty dollars. Literally, 1:42:09.840 --> 1:42:11.559 it's madness. 1:42:11.120 --> 1:42:13.160 Right, got a gun or a calculator? I'm not sure what. 1:42:15.320 --> 1:42:18.479 Yeah, let's joke about mistaking someone for being armed in 1:42:18.520 --> 1:42:22.320 a store. It's not like that's ever gone poorly before anyways. 1:42:22.400 --> 1:42:25.320 What's missing from the analysis here is how these laws 1:42:25.360 --> 1:42:29.840 harm people who aren't necessarily the intended target. A particularly 1:42:29.880 --> 1:42:32.800 striking example of how this could really fuck someone's life 1:42:32.880 --> 1:42:37.000 up comes from Pennsylvania. In twenty twenty one, Joseph Sobeluski 1:42:37.200 --> 1:42:41.040 reportedly misunderstood a discount at an Exxon gas station and 1:42:41.160 --> 1:42:44.639 accidentally underpaid forty three cents for a bottle of mountain 1:42:44.720 --> 1:42:48.839 dew Sobuluski had two theft charges in the past ten years, 1:42:49.120 --> 1:42:51.320 one for a tank of gas and another for a 1:42:51.360 --> 1:42:54.719 pair of shoes. After the Mountain dew incident, state police 1:42:54.800 --> 1:42:57.479 arrested him on a felony charge because of a three 1:42:57.560 --> 1:43:01.240 strikes law in Pennsylvania similar what could happen with Prop 1:43:01.320 --> 1:43:05.320 thirty six. A judge ordered Sobeluski beheld on a fifty 1:43:05.439 --> 1:43:08.800 thousand dollars cash only bond, and he faced up to 1:43:08.880 --> 1:43:13.559 seven years in prison. Fortunately, his public defender successfully argued 1:43:13.560 --> 1:43:17.439 for his release after seven days, and prosecutors ultimately dismissed 1:43:17.439 --> 1:43:19.679 the charge. But it's easy to see how this could 1:43:19.720 --> 1:43:24.280 go wrong for another individual, particularly minorities, who faced disproportionate 1:43:24.320 --> 1:43:28.519 punishment in our legal system. This style of legislation, intended 1:43:28.520 --> 1:43:32.240 to target retail crimes, spread like wildfire across the country. 1:43:32.520 --> 1:43:35.120 According to the text of the twenty twenty five Combating 1:43:35.240 --> 1:43:38.320 Organized Retail Crime Act, more than thirty state laws have 1:43:38.360 --> 1:43:41.719 been enacted since twenty twenty two to address organized theft. 1:43:42.160 --> 1:43:46.280 Common theme stricter penalties and policing. Here's how New York 1:43:46.320 --> 1:43:49.080 Governor Kathy Hokel put it in her twenty twenty four 1:43:49.280 --> 1:43:50.639 State of the state address. 1:43:51.240 --> 1:43:55.679 Let's back our businesses, back our businesses and the workers 1:43:55.720 --> 1:43:59.479 with the full force of the law, and punish those 1:43:59.520 --> 1:44:01.880 who think they can break the rules with impunity. 1:44:02.640 --> 1:44:06.080 After all, policing and aggressive enforcement are the American way 1:44:06.120 --> 1:44:08.719 to deal with crime rather than I don't know addressing 1:44:08.720 --> 1:44:13.280 the root causes, notably poverty and inequality. The pervasive tough 1:44:13.360 --> 1:44:16.639 on crime mentality doesn't have much evidence backing it up, 1:44:16.720 --> 1:44:19.880 but of course there is a wealth of research indicating flaws. 1:44:20.120 --> 1:44:23.559 For one, enforcement is heavily racialized, with black and brown 1:44:23.600 --> 1:44:27.799 people facing retail theft charges at significantly higher rates than whites. 1:44:28.240 --> 1:44:31.760 The Very Institute also highlights how increasing sentences as a 1:44:31.840 --> 1:44:35.960 deterrent doesn't actually work. A twenty eighteen article from Pew 1:44:36.000 --> 1:44:39.320 Research says states can safely raise their value threshold for 1:44:39.360 --> 1:44:42.599 what counts as a felony theft without risking more crime. 1:44:42.960 --> 1:44:45.960 The thirty states that did so between twenty and twenty 1:44:46.000 --> 1:44:50.000 twelve saw no meaningful increase in property crime or larceny rates. 1:44:50.560 --> 1:44:53.200 In South Carolina, Pew found that when they doubled the 1:44:53.200 --> 1:44:56.400 felony threshold from one thousand dollars to two thousand dollars 1:44:56.439 --> 1:44:59.839 in twenty ten, property crime continued to fall by fifteen 1:45:00.479 --> 1:45:03.200 in the next three years. Pew also found that the 1:45:03.320 --> 1:45:06.919 value of stolen goods remained steady, and when adjusted for inflation, 1:45:07.240 --> 1:45:11.360 the median value actually decreased. In essence, the state level 1:45:11.400 --> 1:45:14.560 push for these three strikes shoplifting laws and the aggregation 1:45:14.640 --> 1:45:19.040 of theft value won't meaningfully decrease crime. Rather, it will 1:45:19.040 --> 1:45:23.040 result in more people, particularly minorities, being locked up for 1:45:23.160 --> 1:45:26.960 longer sentences than being saddled with felony convictions that hurt 1:45:27.040 --> 1:45:30.560 their ability to get a job and obtain housing, ultimately 1:45:30.600 --> 1:45:34.360 increasing the likelihood of committing crimes in the future. The 1:45:34.479 --> 1:45:38.760 nonprofit think tank Prison Policy Initiative estimates twenty seven point 1:45:38.920 --> 1:45:42.960 seven billion dollars in annual direct costs of incarceration on 1:45:43.080 --> 1:45:47.400 individuals and families across the US. Families pay in on bail, 1:45:47.640 --> 1:45:51.439 legal fees, civil asset forfeiture, commissary for loved ones, and 1:45:51.520 --> 1:45:55.719 more often going straight to private prison operators. This also 1:45:55.800 --> 1:45:58.559 doesn't begin to factor in the impacts on children and 1:45:58.640 --> 1:46:02.479 local communities. The cost of incarceration on the state also 1:46:02.560 --> 1:46:06.120 needs to be factored in. The California Legislative Analyst Office 1:46:06.240 --> 1:46:09.559 estimates the annual cost of incarcerating one person in state 1:46:09.640 --> 1:46:12.720 prison at one hundred twenty seven thousand, seven hundred eighty 1:46:12.760 --> 1:46:16.960 eight dollars. With massive spending to bolster retail theft enforcement, 1:46:17.200 --> 1:46:20.960 this could create a compounding problem, costing hundreds of millions. 1:46:21.720 --> 1:46:24.360 In July of twenty twenty five, Di Stefan wrote in 1:46:24.400 --> 1:46:28.519 congressional testimonies supporting Korka that her office had prosecuted over 1:46:28.600 --> 1:46:32.080 two hundred eighteen cases of organized retail crime in just 1:46:32.200 --> 1:46:35.920 two years. She says these cases involved theft losses of 1:46:36.000 --> 1:46:40.280 more than two point six million dollars. Putting this into perspective, 1:46:40.560 --> 1:46:43.800 if even half of those prosecutions resulted in one year 1:46:43.880 --> 1:46:47.519 sentences in California state prisons, you're looking at an estimate 1:46:47.560 --> 1:46:52.120 of nearly fourteen million dollars in incarceration costs, over five 1:46:52.240 --> 1:46:55.599 times the reported theft value. But these thoughts don't really 1:46:55.640 --> 1:46:58.160 seem to cross the mind of people like Da Stefan 1:46:58.520 --> 1:47:00.120 or our pals at the NRF. 1:47:00.520 --> 1:47:02.960 This is an argument that drives me crazy, the idea 1:47:03.040 --> 1:47:06.040 that they're stealing because they can't afford the food to 1:47:06.040 --> 1:47:07.719 put on the table to feed their children. 1:47:08.240 --> 1:47:11.960 This is their sole job is to rip off your business. 1:47:12.240 --> 1:47:15.240 That's their blob, that's how they wake up in the morning, 1:47:15.320 --> 1:47:17.240 and so we didn't want them to wake up as 1:47:17.280 --> 1:47:18.320 comfortably as. 1:47:18.160 --> 1:47:21.320 The before with their calculator. 1:47:21.720 --> 1:47:25.400 Yes, they paint this image of people almost getting off 1:47:25.439 --> 1:47:29.320 on doing crime rather than any number of more charitable explanations. 1:47:29.720 --> 1:47:31.960 At face value, it may just sound like typical high 1:47:32.000 --> 1:47:35.599 minded bs from an aggressive DA and lobbyist. But obviously, 1:47:35.680 --> 1:47:37.800 when you think about the position of power someone like 1:47:37.800 --> 1:47:41.600 Stephan is in, it's pretty sickening. In another section of 1:47:41.600 --> 1:47:44.960 the NRF podcast episode, they discuss people switching from drug 1:47:45.000 --> 1:47:49.160 dealing to selling stolen merchandise because of lower penalties, generally 1:47:49.240 --> 1:47:52.880 glossing over the circumstances that might lead an individual into crime. 1:47:53.360 --> 1:47:57.200 Stefan even mentions the need to go after quote frontline boosters, 1:47:57.320 --> 1:47:59.839 the people who are being hired to go into stores 1:47:59.840 --> 1:48:02.880 and steel, who she admits are often homeless or poor. 1:48:03.360 --> 1:48:06.040 It's honestly maddening the listening to this. So that's the 1:48:06.120 --> 1:48:09.000 last quote I'm going to bring from that. Anyways, here's 1:48:09.040 --> 1:48:21.640 some mats. So in the next episode we're going to 1:48:21.720 --> 1:48:24.120 dive into the specifics of the corka bill and how 1:48:24.160 --> 1:48:27.080 Ice has become a key player. But for now I 1:48:27.080 --> 1:48:29.080 want to end on a note that ties together some 1:48:29.160 --> 1:48:32.480 of the broader consequences of all this retail theft propaganda. 1:48:32.880 --> 1:48:36.439 Lobbyists for the bill have a common refrain, quote, organized 1:48:36.479 --> 1:48:38.719 retail crime is not a victimless crime. 1:48:38.960 --> 1:48:39.560 Unquote. 1:48:40.040 --> 1:48:43.200 I think the same goes for their lobbying. Corka hasn't 1:48:43.240 --> 1:48:45.840 even passed the Senate yet there may already be some 1:48:45.960 --> 1:48:50.120 downstream tragedies because of the intensified rhetoric around retail crime. 1:48:50.479 --> 1:48:52.960 In recent years and months, there have been a number 1:48:52.960 --> 1:48:56.800 of high profile killings of individuals accused of shoplifting by 1:48:56.840 --> 1:49:00.280 both shop owners and police. In June of this year, 1:49:00.439 --> 1:49:03.719 police shot and killed Cohen Wiley, a one year old boy, 1:49:04.120 --> 1:49:08.360 while responding to a shoplifting call in Senatobia, Mississippi, over 1:49:08.400 --> 1:49:12.880 allegedly stolen diapers. Police also shot his mother while her 1:49:12.880 --> 1:49:16.320 friend was driving their car. Authorities claim they tried to 1:49:16.360 --> 1:49:19.520 stop the vehicle, but the driver nearly hit an officer, 1:49:19.840 --> 1:49:23.160 a story we've unfortunately become far too familiar with at 1:49:23.160 --> 1:49:26.519 this point. Wiley's mother disputes that the diapers were even 1:49:26.560 --> 1:49:29.320 stolen in the first place, and denies that her friend 1:49:29.400 --> 1:49:32.960 drove towards the officers. Obviously, it didn't matter to the 1:49:33.040 --> 1:49:35.920 trigger happy cops on the scene, who never should have 1:49:36.000 --> 1:49:39.320 pointed firearms at the vehicle in the first place. Other 1:49:39.360 --> 1:49:42.679 similar cases include the killing of Banco Brown, a black 1:49:42.760 --> 1:49:46.160 twenty four year old trance organizer in San Francisco, by 1:49:46.200 --> 1:49:49.920 a Walgreen security guard, and the killing of black fourteen 1:49:49.960 --> 1:49:53.120 year old Cyrus Carmack Belton by a shop owner in 1:49:53.200 --> 1:49:57.559 South Carolina. In Brown's case, San Francisco, Dia Brooke Jenkins, 1:49:57.600 --> 1:50:00.679 who ran on a tough on crime agenda, not pursue 1:50:00.760 --> 1:50:05.080 charges against security guard Michael Arlwaine Anthony, saying he acted 1:50:05.120 --> 1:50:08.679 in self defense based on video footage. The video shows 1:50:08.720 --> 1:50:11.920 Brown and Anthony fighting as Brown apparently tried to leave 1:50:11.960 --> 1:50:15.120 the Walgreens without paying. They grapple on the ground for 1:50:15.160 --> 1:50:18.280 a minute, then Anthony releases Brown but follows him to 1:50:18.320 --> 1:50:22.320 the door. Brown stops just outside the store, possibly talking 1:50:22.360 --> 1:50:24.880 back to the guard. Then the guard pulls his gun 1:50:24.960 --> 1:50:28.760 and shoots Brown as he turns to run. Brown was unarmed, 1:50:28.800 --> 1:50:33.400 and in interviews following the shooting, Anthony repeatedly misgendered him 1:50:33.760 --> 1:50:37.400 for Carmack Belton, his killers. Shop owner cheek. Rick Chow 1:50:37.640 --> 1:50:41.040 face trial for murder but was found not guilty. The 1:50:41.080 --> 1:50:45.479 thing is Carmack Belton, ever actually stole anything, not even 1:50:45.479 --> 1:50:49.599 the water bottles Chow wrongly accused him of. Prosecutors say 1:50:49.680 --> 1:50:52.919 Chow chase the teenager one hundred and thirty yards outside 1:50:52.960 --> 1:50:56.599 the store before shooting him in the back. Prosecutors acknowledged 1:50:56.600 --> 1:50:59.400 that Carmack Belton had a pistol, but said that it 1:50:59.439 --> 1:51:02.519 fell on the ground in the chase. It seems, based 1:51:02.560 --> 1:51:04.880 on the reporting, that the only person who claims to 1:51:04.920 --> 1:51:07.360 have seen the pistol or had it pointed at him 1:51:07.680 --> 1:51:10.920 was Chow's son. I think all this just goes to 1:51:11.000 --> 1:51:14.879 show where we place property, even just a few water bottles, snacks, 1:51:14.960 --> 1:51:19.520 or diapers, relative to human life, especially those in black communities. 1:51:20.120 --> 1:51:23.000 There's a very clear irony that may reflect the types 1:51:23.000 --> 1:51:26.360 of enforcement we could see from CORCA, tough on crime 1:51:26.439 --> 1:51:30.320 for the marginalized, not for those pulling the trigger. There's 1:51:30.360 --> 1:51:33.679 no easy way to determine whether political statements about retail 1:51:33.720 --> 1:51:36.680 crime have an effect on police or shop owners, but 1:51:36.760 --> 1:51:39.439 it's not hard to imagine how a constant bombardment of 1:51:39.479 --> 1:51:43.360 propaganda could embolden someone to take matters into their own hands. 1:51:43.880 --> 1:51:47.360 The retail companies are complicit in this. Somehow they've managed 1:51:47.400 --> 1:51:51.240 to turn a manufacturer's story into a national security crisis 1:51:51.479 --> 1:51:55.360 where states grant hundreds of millions of dollars to protect corporations. 1:51:55.840 --> 1:51:59.480 Retailers blame consumers when they failed to hit desired profits, 1:51:59.760 --> 1:52:03.160 then they raise prices. When that fails, they demonize the 1:52:03.200 --> 1:52:06.439 poor and rattle on about crime. Then they pilfer our 1:52:06.520 --> 1:52:09.360 general funds and team up with the police to crack down. 1:52:09.880 --> 1:52:10.960 It's never enough. 1:52:11.640 --> 1:52:14.040 Now they've sucked in the federal government and we could 1:52:14.080 --> 1:52:16.960 be on the verge of the next upgrade to ice terror, 1:52:17.360 --> 1:52:20.040 but that'll have to wait for the next episode. We'll 1:52:20.080 --> 1:52:34.880 see you tomorrow. Welcome back to It Could Happen Here 1:52:35.040 --> 1:52:38.760 and our Retail Thunderdome. I'm Kevin Foster, and today we're 1:52:38.760 --> 1:52:43.519 continuing our dive into organized retail crime. In the last episode, 1:52:43.560 --> 1:52:46.760 I went over the multi year propaganda campaign waged by 1:52:46.800 --> 1:52:49.800 the retail lobby to make organized retail crime into a 1:52:49.920 --> 1:52:54.599 national crisis, requiring stricter policing and penalties and investment from 1:52:54.640 --> 1:52:58.280 all levels of government. I recommend listening to that episode 1:52:58.280 --> 1:53:01.680 before this one. But in short, huge swaths of politicians 1:53:01.720 --> 1:53:04.759 bought right in spending hundreds of millions at the behest 1:53:04.800 --> 1:53:09.040 of retail giants despite a serious lack of evidence. I 1:53:09.080 --> 1:53:12.599 also touched on the advancements in surveillance at retail stores. 1:53:12.840 --> 1:53:15.680 Whether we see a rollout of AI powered robots in 1:53:15.720 --> 1:53:18.200 the coming years may not matter so much as many 1:53:18.240 --> 1:53:22.759 industry leaders are already implementing facial recognition technology and creating 1:53:22.840 --> 1:53:26.400 watch lists under the guise of loss prevention. And this 1:53:26.479 --> 1:53:30.040 surveillance dragnet is a key element in the rising concern 1:53:30.160 --> 1:53:34.360 around the Combating Organized Retail Crime Act or CORKA, which 1:53:34.439 --> 1:53:38.920 passed the House of Representatives in May with resounding bipartisan support. 1:53:39.400 --> 1:53:42.519 In all likelihood, CORCO will be signed into law. In 1:53:42.560 --> 1:53:45.680 today's episode is about why that is very bad and 1:53:45.720 --> 1:53:49.440 how it's going to impact the American public, notably immigrants. 1:53:49.840 --> 1:53:53.240 Let's get right into it. The Combating Organized Retail Crime 1:53:53.280 --> 1:53:56.240 Act has remained in circulation for years, but to get 1:53:56.280 --> 1:53:59.200 it over the finish line, the retail lobby and supporters 1:53:59.200 --> 1:54:03.559 of the legislation and ultimately found a new boogeyman, cargo theft. 1:54:04.000 --> 1:54:06.480 And this is how they've managed to turn a manufactured 1:54:06.520 --> 1:54:10.679 retail theft story into a national security problem that demands 1:54:10.720 --> 1:54:15.040 intervention by the Department of Homeland Security. In a nutshell, 1:54:15.360 --> 1:54:19.920 the cargo theft narrative has striking similarities to organized retail crime. 1:54:20.280 --> 1:54:24.400 The American Transportation Research Institute says there's between one point 1:54:24.400 --> 1:54:27.840 eight billion and six point five billion dollars in yearly 1:54:27.920 --> 1:54:31.759 losses because of cargo theft, but this includes indirect costs 1:54:31.960 --> 1:54:35.520 a measure of costs across the entire supply chain in 1:54:35.600 --> 1:54:38.800 terms of the actual value of goods. Cargo net, a 1:54:38.920 --> 1:54:43.120 nationally coordinated database placed total cargo theft losses at seven 1:54:43.200 --> 1:54:46.560 hundred twenty five million across the US and Canada in 1:54:46.680 --> 1:54:50.680 twenty twenty five, despite total physical losses being under a 1:54:50.760 --> 1:54:54.040 billion dollars. There have been more attempts to dramatically inflate 1:54:54.080 --> 1:54:57.560 the numbers. Phil Brink, the quote head of fraud Media 1:54:57.600 --> 1:55:01.480 and Education unquote at freight Waves, a trucking logistics and 1:55:01.600 --> 1:55:05.400 news company, estimated the total losses could actually be closer 1:55:05.440 --> 1:55:09.560 to sixty billion dollars because of under reporting of theft. 1:55:10.080 --> 1:55:13.000 No clear evidence is provided to back up this assertion 1:55:13.280 --> 1:55:17.680 other than unnamed experts. If this sounds familiar, it's almost 1:55:17.680 --> 1:55:21.480 the exact same story as the National Retail Federation's fraudulent 1:55:21.640 --> 1:55:25.160 organized retail crime numbers, where they inflated their stats by 1:55:25.240 --> 1:55:29.280 an order of magnitude, mostly based on vibes. And while 1:55:29.280 --> 1:55:31.880 cargo theft did spike in twenty twenty three, a funny 1:55:31.880 --> 1:55:35.600 little side note is that AI integration into logistics might 1:55:35.640 --> 1:55:38.240 be a big part of the problem. Reporting in the 1:55:38.280 --> 1:55:41.360 news outlet the Lever indicates that instead of modern day 1:55:41.440 --> 1:55:44.280 highway robberies, cargo theft is beginning to look more like 1:55:44.320 --> 1:55:48.840 people simply impersonating trucking companies than fooling faulty new AI 1:55:48.960 --> 1:55:52.040 logistics systems. And once they're cleared by the AI, they 1:55:52.040 --> 1:55:54.360 can essentially just pick up the cargo and roll off. 1:55:54.840 --> 1:55:58.680 So between retail crime and cargo theft were essentially operating 1:55:58.800 --> 1:56:02.560 under two manufactures crises. And yet here's the language any 1:56:02.640 --> 1:56:07.160 Combating Organized Retail Crime Act quote. Organized theft groups impact 1:56:07.240 --> 1:56:10.920 the national security of the United States through financing trans 1:56:11.000 --> 1:56:15.360 national criminal activity and providing profit and proceeds supporting larger 1:56:15.400 --> 1:56:20.760 criminal goals of the criminal organizations. In other words, retail 1:56:20.760 --> 1:56:23.640 crime is now a national security threat and it demands 1:56:23.680 --> 1:56:28.240 the influence of Homeland Security and ICE, specifically Corka, calls 1:56:28.240 --> 1:56:32.240 for the establishment of a coordination center to combat organized 1:56:32.280 --> 1:56:36.640 retail and supply chain crime. The DHS Secretary will establish 1:56:36.720 --> 1:56:39.360 the center, and it will be run by an individual 1:56:39.520 --> 1:56:43.880 chosen by the Director of ICE. Fantastic in essence, this 1:56:44.000 --> 1:56:47.080 coordination center will be the hub for federal law enforcement 1:56:47.120 --> 1:56:50.880 activity and connections between the national and local level and 1:56:50.920 --> 1:56:55.360 the public and private sector. Obviously, ICE deepening its involvement 1:56:55.360 --> 1:56:57.320 in our day to day lives is something to be 1:56:57.400 --> 1:57:00.960 concerned about. But here's where it gets really crazy. The 1:57:01.000 --> 1:57:04.320 bill states, quote in general, subject to the approval of 1:57:04.360 --> 1:57:07.560 the director of the center, information that would otherwise be 1:57:07.640 --> 1:57:11.640 subject to the limitation on the disclosure of confidential information 1:57:11.880 --> 1:57:15.160 set forth in Section nineteen oh five of Title eighteen 1:57:15.360 --> 1:57:18.840 United States Code may be shared if such disclosure is 1:57:18.960 --> 1:57:24.320 operationally necessary unquote. Putting the legalese aside. What this means 1:57:24.360 --> 1:57:28.120 in practice is that ICE can access confidential and proprietary 1:57:28.200 --> 1:57:33.120 data from retailers, and because operationally necessary is an extremely broad, 1:57:33.320 --> 1:57:37.280 undefined term, ICE is essentially given full discretion over what 1:57:37.480 --> 1:57:41.200 data they can collect. If anyone questions them, they'll likely 1:57:41.280 --> 1:57:43.760 just say we need to play it safe because organized 1:57:43.800 --> 1:57:47.080 retail crime is a matter of national security that could 1:57:47.120 --> 1:57:52.200 finance drug and weapons trafficking, harming Americans. So that retail 1:57:52.240 --> 1:57:56.280 surveillance dragnet I mentioned in Part one, the AI facial recognition, 1:57:56.440 --> 1:57:59.560 the robots, the customer profiles, they say can be leveraged 1:57:59.600 --> 1:58:03.640 to boot customer loyalty. ICE could potentially leverage that data 1:58:03.720 --> 1:58:07.640 in its immigration crackdown. Imagine a world where ICE knows 1:58:07.720 --> 1:58:10.680 who is going to witch stores and when. No need 1:58:10.720 --> 1:58:13.720 for scanning license plates on the streets anymore. Now they 1:58:13.720 --> 1:58:16.280 can just look up your customer profile and head over 1:58:16.320 --> 1:58:20.360 to Walmart when you're doing your biweekly grocery run. Given 1:58:20.400 --> 1:58:22.320 what we've seen in the past year and a half, 1:58:22.440 --> 1:58:25.680 ICE will likely try to leverage this heavily. They already 1:58:25.680 --> 1:58:29.720 have facial recognition technology like the mobile Fortify app, which, 1:58:29.760 --> 1:58:33.320 according to Vanderbilt University's School of Law, is connected to 1:58:33.360 --> 1:58:37.400 a database of over two hundred million images. The ACLU 1:58:37.440 --> 1:58:40.440 of Wisconsin states that you may already be in this database, 1:58:40.560 --> 1:58:44.680 as it's connected to other databases containing federal biometric systems, 1:58:44.960 --> 1:58:48.960 passport and visa records, and state driver's license photos. A 1:58:49.040 --> 1:58:52.400 depressing little side note some of this may have been preventable. 1:58:52.720 --> 1:58:55.640 For example, in Oregon, the state police are being sued 1:58:55.720 --> 1:58:58.800 for sharing data with ICE, even though they and our 1:58:58.840 --> 1:59:02.280 governor were worn by Congress members to close certain loopholes 1:59:02.800 --> 1:59:07.760 that gave ICE access to DMV records. Now, obviously, grocery 1:59:07.760 --> 1:59:12.200 stores present a significant vulnerability to maintaining our privacy due 1:59:12.280 --> 1:59:16.160 to basic human needs. Nothing is clearly stopping ICE from 1:59:16.200 --> 1:59:19.160 running face scans out of retail stores and creating a 1:59:19.280 --> 1:59:22.880 new front for their anti immigrant crackdown. And there's already 1:59:22.920 --> 1:59:26.160 a blueprint for this. The ACLU published an article in 1:59:26.280 --> 1:59:30.320 January this year about Wegmans using facial recognition and sharing 1:59:30.440 --> 1:59:33.960 data on quote persons of interest with law enforcement on 1:59:34.040 --> 1:59:37.640 a quote, case by case basis. It's unclear how or 1:59:37.680 --> 1:59:41.360 if retail stores will challenge ICE's access in any way. 1:59:41.720 --> 1:59:44.480 As of now, many have been fully on board with 1:59:44.520 --> 1:59:48.160 the organized retail theft hype train. On the other hand, 1:59:48.240 --> 1:59:51.320 on May eleventh this year, a coalition of forty civil 1:59:51.400 --> 1:59:55.000 rights organizations, including the Immigrant Defender's Law Center in the 1:59:55.120 --> 1:59:58.880 National Association of Criminal Defense Attorneys, sent a letter to 1:59:58.960 --> 2:00:02.680 Congress urging the House not to pass corka highlighting how 2:00:02.680 --> 2:00:06.520 it would massively expand DHS's role in authority in domestic 2:00:06.600 --> 2:00:09.960 law enforcement, and the issues don't end there. They also 2:00:10.040 --> 2:00:13.720 pointed out how CORCA gives DHS influence over local and 2:00:13.760 --> 2:00:18.160 state law enforcement through the ability to expand certain grant requirements. 2:00:18.560 --> 2:00:21.880 In effect, this coalition sees a pathway for DHS to 2:00:21.960 --> 2:00:26.520 push jurisdictions toward more intrusive data collection and surveillance, especially 2:00:26.600 --> 2:00:31.560 if that jurisdiction is receiving federal grants. Additionally, the coalition 2:00:31.720 --> 2:00:35.240 noted how the sunset provision for the CORCA Coordination Center 2:00:35.440 --> 2:00:39.839 quote includes no requirement to dismantle data sharing systems, delete 2:00:39.880 --> 2:00:45.600 collected information, or reverse any entrenched surveillance practices quote, So 2:00:45.680 --> 2:00:48.400 these practices could very well be here to stay without 2:00:48.400 --> 2:00:50.960 some sort of intervention down the line. Good luck to 2:00:51.080 --> 2:00:53.760 us trying to get that. I think, as James put 2:00:53.800 --> 2:00:56.480 it in a conversation we had, it's like trying to 2:00:56.520 --> 2:00:58.920 convince a bunch of the HOA moms that we need 2:00:58.920 --> 2:01:01.920 to be softer on real detail crime. It just doesn't 2:01:01.960 --> 2:01:05.320 really seem like it's going to happen. And unfortunately, this 2:01:05.440 --> 2:01:09.160 coalition letter largely fell on deaf ears, with only fifty 2:01:09.240 --> 2:01:13.040 nine Democrats and one Republican voting against Corka in the House. 2:01:13.600 --> 2:01:16.000 I've spoken with many people about this, and there's often 2:01:16.040 --> 2:01:19.480 this question of like do they know? And I'd argue, 2:01:19.560 --> 2:01:22.440 it's their job to know, and this pill is pretty 2:01:22.480 --> 2:01:25.800 cut and dried power expansion for Ice. It's kind of 2:01:25.840 --> 2:01:27.920 hard to tell how they wouldn't have seen this coming, 2:01:28.400 --> 2:01:32.280 especially with progressive groups warning them about it. And by 2:01:32.320 --> 2:01:34.760 now this coalition has grown to over one hundred and 2:01:34.840 --> 2:01:38.560 twenty organizations urging the Senate not to pass Corka. In 2:01:38.600 --> 2:01:42.240 spite of this, in the Senate Judiciary Committee, Republican Senator 2:01:42.320 --> 2:01:45.840 Chuck Grassley and Democratic Senator Dick Durbin have teamed up 2:01:45.840 --> 2:01:48.960 to add Corka as an amendment to the National Defense 2:01:49.000 --> 2:01:52.760 Authorization Act for fiscal year twenty twenty seven. This would 2:01:52.840 --> 2:01:56.240 essentially just mean entrenching this into our defense policy. And 2:01:56.480 --> 2:01:59.680 if that happens, which seems somewhat likely, I suspect it's 2:01:59.720 --> 2:02:02.720 Kurt and Corca is going through. I highly doubt that 2:02:02.760 --> 2:02:04.920 the Democrats are going to hold the line on the 2:02:05.040 --> 2:02:08.520 NDAA for something they clearly either don't care about or 2:02:08.640 --> 2:02:11.640 don't seem to understand. But what they might care about 2:02:11.720 --> 2:02:25.480 are the products and services that support this podcast, And 2:02:25.600 --> 2:02:28.520 we're back, and I'm imagining this is starting to sound 2:02:28.520 --> 2:02:31.720 pretty frightening, and it is to cool the temperature a bit. 2:02:31.800 --> 2:02:36.080 It's important to consider ICE's capacity for enforcement. They've had 2:02:36.120 --> 2:02:39.800 ways of accessing various surveillance tools for quite some time now. 2:02:40.120 --> 2:02:42.600 To some extent, they likely could have done some of 2:02:42.600 --> 2:02:46.320 this stuff with flock cameras or other automated license plate readers. 2:02:46.840 --> 2:02:49.520 But I think the threat in retail comes more from 2:02:49.520 --> 2:02:52.360 the pre existing infrastructure and the fact that this bill 2:02:52.400 --> 2:02:58.080 seems to give ICE sweeping access to confidential and proprietary information. Still, 2:02:58.160 --> 2:03:01.400 there are strategies for resisting this, I won't lie. Many 2:03:01.440 --> 2:03:05.120 of them are time intensive and require consistent community effort, 2:03:05.200 --> 2:03:08.920 but that's the world we're in. For example, in Hillsboro, Oregon, 2:03:09.080 --> 2:03:12.520 just west of Portland, local mutual aid groups began delivering 2:03:12.560 --> 2:03:15.640 groceries to immigrant families who are afraid to go outside 2:03:15.760 --> 2:03:18.520 in the middle of Operation Black Rows, which was the 2:03:18.600 --> 2:03:22.200 massive ice surge last fall in winter. In Los Angeles 2:03:22.320 --> 2:03:26.000 last summer, similar groups set up community defense corners outside 2:03:26.000 --> 2:03:28.800 home depot parking lots in an attempt to protect day 2:03:28.880 --> 2:03:32.960 laborers from ice raids. These usually manifested as just pop 2:03:33.040 --> 2:03:36.920 up tents with community members water and snacks. Certainly didn't 2:03:36.920 --> 2:03:39.840 stop everything, but I know one group in Pasadena that 2:03:40.000 --> 2:03:43.160 was allegedly the last home depot in LA to be raided, 2:03:43.440 --> 2:03:46.720 and they had a consistent community effort for months. In 2:03:46.840 --> 2:03:50.800 terms of shopping, avoiding loyalty programs may end up being necessary, 2:03:50.880 --> 2:03:52.600 as this is one of the ways that we hand 2:03:52.640 --> 2:03:55.560 over a lot of our data to stores. But shopping 2:03:55.600 --> 2:03:58.440 locally or at stores that collect less data will probably 2:03:58.440 --> 2:04:01.920 be the best bet. So CORKA clearly has a number 2:04:01.920 --> 2:04:03.960 of ways that it could be abused by ice. But 2:04:04.040 --> 2:04:06.080 to get the full extent of what we're dealing with, 2:04:06.200 --> 2:04:08.880 I got in contact with Laura Conover, who is the 2:04:08.960 --> 2:04:12.800 district attorney in Pima County, Arizona, which contains Tucson and 2:04:12.840 --> 2:04:16.760 borders the Mexican state of Sonora. Contrary to Da Stephen 2:04:16.880 --> 2:04:20.120 featured in the first episode, Conover has actually been an 2:04:20.160 --> 2:04:24.200 outspoken opponent of CORKA. In particular, she has tied CORKA 2:04:24.200 --> 2:04:26.840 to the Lake and Riley Act, saying Congress is just 2:04:27.040 --> 2:04:30.360 compounding mistakes it already made. The Lake and Riley Act 2:04:30.400 --> 2:04:34.200 became law on January twenty ninth, twenty twenty five, passing 2:04:34.240 --> 2:04:38.160 Congress again with a substantial amount of bipartisan support greater 2:04:38.240 --> 2:04:42.880 than sixty percent in both chambers. It's a particularly abhorrent 2:04:42.960 --> 2:04:46.680 piece of legislation, as a quote requires DHS to detain 2:04:46.880 --> 2:04:53.080 certain non US nationals who have been arrested for burglary, theft, larceny, shoplifting, 2:04:53.320 --> 2:04:56.480 assault of a law enforcement officer, or any crime that 2:04:56.560 --> 2:04:59.960 results in death or serious bodily injury to another person. 2:05:01.480 --> 2:05:05.760 Notice how it says arrested, not charged, not convicted, but 2:05:05.880 --> 2:05:09.000 simply detained for one of the crimes listed, even if 2:05:09.000 --> 2:05:12.960 the individual didn't actually do anything wrong. The law also 2:05:13.200 --> 2:05:16.920 allows states to sue the federal government for alleged failures 2:05:16.920 --> 2:05:20.720 and immigration enforcement, meaning the federal government can effectively be 2:05:20.800 --> 2:05:23.960 held liable for a number of things, such as if 2:05:23.960 --> 2:05:28.400 an undocumented immigrant causes harm to state residents, including financial 2:05:28.440 --> 2:05:31.920 harm greater than one hundred dollars. It's tough to say 2:05:32.000 --> 2:05:34.760 the extent to which this could be applied, but the 2:05:34.800 --> 2:05:38.240 through line between this and CORKA is pretty clear. ICE 2:05:38.280 --> 2:05:42.360 could monitor retail locations for thefts and shoplifting through CORCA 2:05:42.640 --> 2:05:45.680 then they're essentially liable if they don't seek to detain 2:05:45.760 --> 2:05:48.640 someone who has stolen more than one hundred dollars worth 2:05:48.680 --> 2:05:52.840 of merchandise. Conover has specific examples of the ways in 2:05:52.880 --> 2:05:56.080 which the Lake and Riley Act is burdening local jurisdictions, 2:05:56.320 --> 2:06:00.240 destroying due process protections, and ultimately how CORKA will very 2:06:00.360 --> 2:06:03.800 likely make this worse. For example, it was Conover's job 2:06:03.880 --> 2:06:07.440 to prosecute the case of Jessica Corles Duarte, who entered 2:06:07.480 --> 2:06:10.000 the US when she was two years old with her mother, 2:06:10.080 --> 2:06:13.400 who had fled domestic abuse in Mexico and obtained legal 2:06:13.400 --> 2:06:17.640 status through the Violence Against Women Act. Corrales Duarte became 2:06:17.720 --> 2:06:20.640 a DOCA recipient, and she's now thirty two or thirty 2:06:20.640 --> 2:06:22.720 three based on the articles that I read, and she 2:06:22.800 --> 2:06:25.320 has two children. But in the past years she was 2:06:25.400 --> 2:06:28.960 arrested and charged with shoplifting and theft, and her DOCA 2:06:29.000 --> 2:06:32.520 status has been terminated. She allegedly stole up to fifty 2:06:32.520 --> 2:06:35.760 seven hundred dollars in perfume from an Alta beauty location 2:06:36.000 --> 2:06:39.440 over three days, which put her over the felony theft threshold, 2:06:39.640 --> 2:06:42.560 though this number is disputed by her defense. She had 2:06:42.640 --> 2:06:45.560 no prior criminal record, and Conover said based on a 2:06:45.600 --> 2:06:48.879 tape confession, she likely would have qualified for a program 2:06:48.920 --> 2:06:51.640 where she could pay restitution and get back on her feet. 2:06:52.320 --> 2:06:55.880 Then ICE came in. They detained Corles Duarte as she 2:06:55.960 --> 2:06:59.080 was leaving her home for her waitressing job. The ensuing 2:06:59.120 --> 2:07:01.680 months where it is at ICE held her at the 2:07:01.720 --> 2:07:05.160 Elloyd Detention Center, about an hour from Tucson, and blocked 2:07:05.160 --> 2:07:07.360 her from attending many of the court dates for her 2:07:07.400 --> 2:07:10.960 shoplifting case. According to an article in the Tucson Spotlight, 2:07:11.560 --> 2:07:13.560 here's da Conover on the situation. 2:07:14.440 --> 2:07:17.520 So, for example, in our case, the result was just 2:07:18.000 --> 2:07:25.480 defendants disappearing into federal custody and before any normal process. 2:07:26.760 --> 2:07:31.760 So you've got a victim who's now totally out of 2:07:31.840 --> 2:07:37.440 luck for any kind of restoration, be that through probation 2:07:37.960 --> 2:07:40.560 or through restitution, which is important. 2:07:40.600 --> 2:07:40.800 You know. 2:07:40.840 --> 2:07:44.800 So victim's rights are violated. The defendant obviously gets no 2:07:44.920 --> 2:07:48.320 due process. You know, in our experience, they hardly had 2:07:48.360 --> 2:07:50.840 any contact with their attorney, and their attorney was just 2:07:50.960 --> 2:07:56.200 rendered totally ineffective in the local court. So it confounds 2:07:58.000 --> 2:08:02.520 the entire normal criminal justice to this process. It's like 2:08:02.600 --> 2:08:04.440 the opposite of collaboration. 2:08:06.000 --> 2:08:09.879 So not only are Kerles Duarte's rights violated on multiple levels, 2:08:09.960 --> 2:08:12.520 but it also actually hurts the property owner because they 2:08:12.560 --> 2:08:16.200 won't receive restitution if someone is deported. It's not clear 2:08:16.240 --> 2:08:19.560 whether Korles Duarte was involved in some sort of organized 2:08:19.560 --> 2:08:22.640 retail theft operation, but I want to stress again that 2:08:22.680 --> 2:08:25.480 the people in such a situation who actually do this dealing, 2:08:25.840 --> 2:08:29.880 commonly referred to as boosters, are often poor, homeless, or 2:08:29.880 --> 2:08:33.480 struggling in some way themselves. Many of you probably already 2:08:33.560 --> 2:08:37.160 know this, but undocumented people commit less crime overall than 2:08:37.200 --> 2:08:41.280 American citizens. An analysis by the National Institute of Justice 2:08:41.360 --> 2:08:44.520 using data from Texas between twenty twelve and twenty eighteen 2:08:44.840 --> 2:08:48.440 found that undocumented immigrants had offending rates less than half 2:08:48.440 --> 2:08:51.400 of that of US born citizens. This is in spite 2:08:51.440 --> 2:08:53.520 of the fact that the US fakes it much harder 2:08:53.520 --> 2:08:56.840 for undocumented people to obtain good paying jobs, which can 2:08:56.920 --> 2:09:00.440 drive people into poverty and therefore crime. And for all 2:09:00.480 --> 2:09:03.600 of this conover inform me that corle S Duarte appears 2:09:03.600 --> 2:09:06.760 to be in process for deportation away from her children. 2:09:07.440 --> 2:09:10.440 There are just more effective and humane ways to deal 2:09:10.480 --> 2:09:14.320 with this, like the diversion programs mentioned which don't need 2:09:14.360 --> 2:09:17.560 to involve the federal government, but instead we're just giving 2:09:17.600 --> 2:09:19.320 more power ties With. 2:09:19.360 --> 2:09:22.760 Lake and Riley and with Corka, you're talking about such 2:09:22.800 --> 2:09:28.280 a street level, local issue where we have local police 2:09:28.760 --> 2:09:33.960 and prosecutors whose entire purpose is to prosecute local crime, 2:09:34.960 --> 2:09:39.840 and to just give some random federal agency authority over 2:09:39.920 --> 2:09:42.520 that sweeping new authority of that just doesn't make any 2:09:42.640 --> 2:09:48.800 sense operationally. Not to mention the particular agency is one 2:09:48.880 --> 2:09:53.520 in which there's bipartisan concern about how recklessly they're being managed. 2:09:54.440 --> 2:09:57.320 On the note of recklessness, with the expansion of ISIS 2:09:57.320 --> 2:10:02.960 surveillance network comes greater concern over warrantless enforcement, constitutional violations, 2:10:02.960 --> 2:10:07.120 and technological mistakes. The podcast Reveal reported a case of 2:10:07.200 --> 2:10:09.600 ICE scanning the face of a twenty three year old 2:10:09.720 --> 2:10:14.040 US citizen purely on suspicion, and according to Innovation Law Lab, 2:10:14.160 --> 2:10:17.200 the same seems to have happened to a woman in Oregon, 2:10:17.320 --> 2:10:21.000 where Ice used a Palanteer developed platform called Elite, which, 2:10:21.160 --> 2:10:24.400 without a warrant, essentially geofence is an area and creates 2:10:24.440 --> 2:10:29.560 targets with a quote immigration nexus. In this case, the 2:10:29.600 --> 2:10:33.320 mobile Fortify app returned two different incorrect names and images 2:10:33.440 --> 2:10:37.080 for the same woman. Still ICE has told lawmakers it's 2:10:37.120 --> 2:10:41.520 a definitive measure of immigration status that effectively supersedes other 2:10:41.600 --> 2:10:46.080 evidence of citizenship, such as a birth certificate. The National 2:10:46.120 --> 2:10:50.040 Institute of Standards and Technology has also reported that facial 2:10:50.080 --> 2:10:54.000 recognition tech is less accurate on women than men, black people, 2:10:54.320 --> 2:10:57.800 and other individuals with darker skin. This hull gets much 2:10:57.840 --> 2:11:00.480 worse when you're not in a controlled environment where you 2:11:00.520 --> 2:11:03.160 can get a well lit, straight on shot of someone's 2:11:03.160 --> 2:11:06.600 face with no obstruction. Certainly something that isn't going to 2:11:06.640 --> 2:11:11.360 happen under the floodlights of a grocery store entryway. So again, 2:11:11.480 --> 2:11:14.160 I can't really say to what extent ICE will actually 2:11:14.200 --> 2:11:17.560 integrate all of these technologies or what capacity they'll have 2:11:17.640 --> 2:11:20.520 for enforcement, but it seems like the worst case scenario 2:11:20.600 --> 2:11:23.680 could be a warrantless surveillance frenzy where they couldn't care 2:11:23.760 --> 2:11:26.480 less if they're detaining the right people. I say the 2:11:26.560 --> 2:11:29.920 right people as in the individuals that they're actually targeting, 2:11:30.080 --> 2:11:33.000 and I don't actually believe there is a right person 2:11:33.160 --> 2:11:33.839 to be detained. 2:11:33.840 --> 2:11:34.720 It's all bullshit. 2:11:35.040 --> 2:11:39.080 But as Corka also calls for local and federal collaboration, 2:11:39.640 --> 2:11:42.680 cops could very easily worsen this problem, and ICE can 2:11:42.760 --> 2:11:45.960 leverage the Lake and rileyac to ramp up deportations. It's 2:11:46.400 --> 2:12:01.600 not good, but anyways, here's some ads. We're back to 2:12:01.760 --> 2:12:03.880 round out this two parter and like to connect some 2:12:03.960 --> 2:12:07.360 of the dots from the first episode to Corca. To 2:12:07.440 --> 2:12:10.120 do so, I've chatted with James about a concept known 2:12:10.200 --> 2:12:15.000 as moral turpitude. Moral turpitude is a vaguely defined concept 2:12:15.000 --> 2:12:18.120 and there's lots of nebulous legal language surrounding it, but 2:12:18.360 --> 2:12:21.680 in essence, it's a crime that is considered morally offensive 2:12:21.880 --> 2:12:25.520 and it's important to immigration law. Notably included in this 2:12:25.600 --> 2:12:29.120 definition is larceny or theft, and a conviction for one 2:12:29.160 --> 2:12:33.120 of these crimes can render an immigrant either inadmissible or deportable. 2:12:33.480 --> 2:12:35.760 Here's some of the conversation that James and I had. 2:12:36.720 --> 2:12:39.320 In admissibility could be important for someone who is inside 2:12:39.360 --> 2:12:42.480 the United States. Let's say they call it ewe entered 2:12:42.480 --> 2:12:45.840 without inspection. That means coming into the United States, not 2:12:45.920 --> 2:12:47.160 through a port of entry. 2:12:47.320 --> 2:12:47.480 Right. 2:12:47.560 --> 2:12:49.840 Let's say they went over the wall, under the wall, 2:12:49.960 --> 2:12:52.800 around the wall, through the river, through the desert, through 2:12:52.840 --> 2:12:54.840 the mountains. Right, the many ways that people can enter 2:12:54.880 --> 2:12:59.840 with that inspection, they could then be found inadmissible long 2:13:00.160 --> 2:13:04.840 after entering the United States because they hadn't been admitted, right, 2:13:04.880 --> 2:13:07.520 they just came in. Just imagine, like you want to 2:13:07.560 --> 2:13:10.839 go Disneyland. It's prohibitively expensive, so you climb over defence. 2:13:11.480 --> 2:13:14.840 You were not admitted to Disneyland. Yeah, right, So if 2:13:14.920 --> 2:13:19.440 Disneyland found you, they would kick you out. The issue here, 2:13:19.520 --> 2:13:21.160 Let's say if someone has been in the United States 2:13:21.160 --> 2:13:25.120 for a number of years but they are undocumented. If 2:13:25.200 --> 2:13:30.280 they are found guilty of a crime including moral turpitude, 2:13:30.320 --> 2:13:34.560 or convicted of a crime moral turpitude, and the offense 2:13:34.640 --> 2:13:37.680 carries a maximum sentence of one year or more and 2:13:38.040 --> 2:13:40.800 the person committed the offense within five years after the 2:13:40.880 --> 2:13:45.600 date of admission, they are then deportable. Now if the eweed, 2:13:45.640 --> 2:13:47.760 if they ended with that inspection, there aout other reasons 2:13:47.760 --> 2:13:51.360 they could be deportable. Right, But I did say somebody 2:13:51.760 --> 2:13:56.000 has a visa. The same is true with inadmissibility. 2:13:56.120 --> 2:13:56.320 Right. 2:13:56.400 --> 2:13:59.640 So we recently had a Supreme Court ruling about admissibility 2:13:59.680 --> 2:14:02.520 with regard to permanent residents, which kind of brings them 2:14:02.520 --> 2:14:06.560 closer in line to visa holders. But admissibility doesn't just 2:14:06.640 --> 2:14:10.520 mean them giving you the visa. It could also, for example, 2:14:10.680 --> 2:14:13.440 impact you if you went somewhere else and return to 2:14:13.520 --> 2:14:17.120 the United States. Right, So a crime evolving moral TERMSUD 2:14:17.200 --> 2:14:19.960 could then render you in admissible, so you could be 2:14:20.360 --> 2:14:23.120 detained or not admitted to the United States when you 2:14:23.200 --> 2:14:26.960 came back. It's also important, I guess, to note that 2:14:27.480 --> 2:14:32.160 some diversion programs State diversion programs don't count as a 2:14:32.280 --> 2:14:36.160 conviction in terms of federal immigration law if a guilty 2:14:36.200 --> 2:14:41.760 plea is not entered. So if somebody who could previously 2:14:41.800 --> 2:14:45.240 have got into a diversion program ends up not in 2:14:45.280 --> 2:14:48.200 a diversion program. In addition to Corker, right, we have 2:14:48.280 --> 2:14:52.560 all these state sentencing enhancements. Yeah, we see in California. Right, 2:14:52.960 --> 2:14:56.920 If that person ends up with a conviction instead of 2:14:56.960 --> 2:15:00.280 being putting a diversion program without entering a plea, that 2:15:00.440 --> 2:15:03.600 is a night and day different in immigration terms. 2:15:03.680 --> 2:15:04.520 Right, It's black and white. 2:15:04.600 --> 2:15:06.960 One is a conviction for what it's probably a crime 2:15:06.960 --> 2:15:09.920 evolving moral turpitude, because lars andy is a crime evolving 2:15:09.960 --> 2:15:13.120 moral turpitude, and I think that's what this generally falls under. 2:15:13.120 --> 2:15:17.400 Rent again, not a lawyer. But if that is the case, 2:15:17.880 --> 2:15:20.560 one of these sentencing enhanced and at a state level 2:15:21.200 --> 2:15:25.960 results in somebody now having, for federal immigration terms, a 2:15:26.000 --> 2:15:28.480 conviction of a crime involving moral turpitude. They are now 2:15:28.520 --> 2:15:32.960 inadmissible and in a single conviction, as I said before, 2:15:33.040 --> 2:15:36.200 can make a non citizen deportable if it has a 2:15:36.240 --> 2:15:38.600 possible sentence for a year or more, which these sentencing 2:15:38.720 --> 2:15:42.200 enhancement to make a lot more likely. Right, and good luck, 2:15:42.280 --> 2:15:45.560 I guess trying to find some way of getting that 2:15:45.640 --> 2:15:49.320 conviction overturned or like you now you're fighting against all 2:15:49.360 --> 2:15:52.960 this lobbying that retailers are doing, right, and all this 2:15:53.160 --> 2:15:56.480 propaganda that has been put out there that is going 2:15:56.480 --> 2:15:58.800 to make it harder and harder for people to avoid 2:15:58.840 --> 2:16:00.440 those convictions in the first place, and then to get 2:16:00.440 --> 2:16:01.160 them overturned. 2:16:01.840 --> 2:16:02.920 Yeah. 2:16:03.160 --> 2:16:05.680 I don't want to get like to doom and gloom 2:16:05.720 --> 2:16:07.480 about it, but like, do you worry that there's just 2:16:07.520 --> 2:16:10.880 a combination of factors here that could massively worsen things 2:16:10.960 --> 2:16:11.720 with at the level? 2:16:11.920 --> 2:16:12.240 Yeah? 2:16:12.320 --> 2:16:14.480 Yeah, Like every time we make a new law, we're 2:16:14.480 --> 2:16:16.800 giving a new powers to the state, right, and every 2:16:16.840 --> 2:16:20.720 single law is backed up by violence a matter of 2:16:20.720 --> 2:16:23.200 if it's a parking ticket or murder. Right, the state 2:16:23.240 --> 2:16:26.280 can lock you up, beat you up, or shoot you up. 2:16:26.600 --> 2:16:31.280 That is the basis on which all laws rest. Right. Yeah, 2:16:31.280 --> 2:16:32.760 so you don't pick a parking ticket that you don't 2:16:32.760 --> 2:16:34.440 go to court. Eventually someone's going to turn up, but 2:16:34.480 --> 2:16:37.280 your Dora is going to be a person with a gun, right, Like, 2:16:37.600 --> 2:16:40.240 that is the structure on which the state exists to 2:16:40.360 --> 2:16:43.720 use like the crass Faburian definition of the state. I 2:16:43.760 --> 2:16:46.920 guess this is a big one, right. We are handing 2:16:46.959 --> 2:16:51.320 a bunch of tools here to an entity which is 2:16:51.400 --> 2:16:55.880 tearing families apart, which is ripping children from parents, which 2:16:55.920 --> 2:16:58.520 is taking grandmothers away from their grandchildren. 2:16:58.640 --> 2:17:03.520 Right, yeah, I mean what do you Maybe this isn't 2:17:04.280 --> 2:17:06.280 for the episode, but like, what do you think people 2:17:06.360 --> 2:17:07.360 should do? 2:17:08.280 --> 2:17:08.480 Yeah? 2:17:08.600 --> 2:17:10.640 Like, the answer to this is the same as an 2:17:10.680 --> 2:17:14.640 answer to everything. It's stronger. Community is Like, people steal 2:17:14.720 --> 2:17:18.240 things because they need to meet their material needs. Sure, 2:17:18.280 --> 2:17:20.200 some people also enjoy stealing stuff, Right, that's the thing 2:17:20.240 --> 2:17:22.199 that exists, But the vast majority of FAFT is happening 2:17:22.240 --> 2:17:25.119 because people are not meeting their material needs. We need 2:17:25.240 --> 2:17:28.000 to work out a way to meet each other's material needs. 2:17:28.160 --> 2:17:31.280 And like I was in Minneapolis in January, right, yeah, 2:17:31.879 --> 2:17:35.879 very hard for me to be hungry in Minneapolis in January. 2:17:36.400 --> 2:17:39.960 Like I'm vegan, I'm annoying to feed, right, but people 2:17:40.040 --> 2:17:44.039 would constantly bring me fucking food and hot tea. And 2:17:44.120 --> 2:17:46.800 like that's not the be all end all, but gets 2:17:46.920 --> 2:17:50.039 us a long way there. Like if your neighbors aren't hungry, 2:17:50.680 --> 2:17:52.199 and I guess to know if your neighbors are hungry, 2:17:52.240 --> 2:17:55.000 you have to know who your neighbors are, right, So like, 2:17:55.879 --> 2:17:58.680 start by knocking on someone's door, you know, start by 2:18:00.720 --> 2:18:03.640 your truck's not working. Let's work it out. I bet 2:18:03.720 --> 2:18:05.720 I can find a YouTube video. We can watch you. 2:18:05.720 --> 2:18:07.480 You have a bunch of sockets. Let's see how we 2:18:07.480 --> 2:18:08.000 can fix it. 2:18:09.360 --> 2:18:11.560 So I know the ending of this is sort of bleak, 2:18:11.879 --> 2:18:14.280 but I just want to be honest with you about 2:18:14.320 --> 2:18:17.200 the possibilities. If I used this to take Korka as 2:18:17.240 --> 2:18:20.080 far as they can, as Da Conover told me, you 2:18:20.160 --> 2:18:22.600 give them an inch and they take a mile, then 2:18:22.600 --> 2:18:26.120 this will get very bad. Surveillance capitalism isn't going to 2:18:26.200 --> 2:18:29.200 draw a line at immigrants, but that doesn't really matter 2:18:29.320 --> 2:18:33.080 either way. Clearly, the Democratic Party, given their votes support 2:18:33.200 --> 2:18:35.760 is not going to stop this. As James said, It's 2:18:35.920 --> 2:18:38.600 going to come down to community. So go find your 2:18:38.640 --> 2:18:41.680 co op grocery store. Get to know your neighbors' faces 2:18:41.760 --> 2:18:43.800 before Ice gets to know your face at. 2:18:43.720 --> 2:18:44.520 The grocery store. 2:18:45.120 --> 2:18:45.800 Thanks for listening. 2:18:58.320 --> 2:19:01.520 There were some strange looking at people at RNC. This 2:19:01.600 --> 2:19:04.080 is it could happen here at Executive Disorder Hour, with 2:19:04.200 --> 2:19:06.360 the newscast covering what's happening in the White House, the 2:19:06.480 --> 2:19:09.160 crumbling world, and what this means for you. I'm Garrison 2:19:09.240 --> 2:19:12.039 Davis to They am joined by Robert Evans and Mia Wong, 2:19:12.600 --> 2:19:16.320 with a special segment later on by James Stout, who 2:19:16.400 --> 2:19:19.920 is on the ground in Spokane. This episode recovering the 2:19:19.920 --> 2:19:24.920 week of July twenty ninth to August fifth, And let's 2:19:25.000 --> 2:19:30.119 actually start with James reporting from the wildfires in Spokane. 2:19:31.080 --> 2:19:34.760 Hi, everyone, it's James. I'm in Washington State this week 2:19:34.840 --> 2:19:38.160 covering the fires here. I will cover more in depth 2:19:38.240 --> 2:19:41.480 on my new show Natural Courses, which you will soon 2:19:41.520 --> 2:19:44.480 be able to download wherever quality podcasts given away for free, 2:19:45.080 --> 2:19:47.080 but I want to catch everyone up on the fires here. 2:19:47.080 --> 2:19:49.200 As an a little folk prefer to consume then news 2:19:49.240 --> 2:19:51.400 this way and might otherwise not be aware of what's 2:19:51.400 --> 2:19:54.320 going on. So on the first of August, the National 2:19:54.360 --> 2:19:59.280 Weather Service in each Washington and in Idaho issued a PDS, 2:19:59.400 --> 2:20:03.680 a Particular Dangerous Situation Notice. Fires were already burning across 2:20:03.760 --> 2:20:06.600 much of the state and across much of the Pacific Northwest, 2:20:06.680 --> 2:20:09.160 including on the land of the Colville Tribes and the 2:20:09.160 --> 2:20:13.600 Spokane Tribe. On Saturday, three fires struck near the north 2:20:13.640 --> 2:20:16.920 part of the city of Spokane. The PDS doubtless helped 2:20:16.920 --> 2:20:19.600 some folks prepare other folks, I'm sure will have missed 2:20:19.600 --> 2:20:23.640 it entirely. Very quickly, people went from nothing to level 2:20:23.680 --> 2:20:27.640 three go now warnings. This was somewhat compounded by things 2:20:27.640 --> 2:20:31.199 like a large travel volleyball tournament happening in an area 2:20:31.320 --> 2:20:35.039 which got a level three go now warning. What that 2:20:35.040 --> 2:20:37.080 means if you're not familiar. There are three levels of 2:20:37.160 --> 2:20:40.400 warnings when you are evacuated for a fire, and their 2:20:40.480 --> 2:20:43.080 level three is the most severe one, that being like 2:20:43.240 --> 2:20:46.000 you have to leave your home right now. Several people 2:20:46.000 --> 2:20:47.600 have related to me, and I want to caveat here 2:20:47.600 --> 2:20:49.840 that I'm not being critical of the response, which has 2:20:49.879 --> 2:20:54.000 actually been very good. I'm giving information because more people 2:20:54.040 --> 2:20:56.680 are going to find themselves in this situation in the future. 2:20:56.720 --> 2:20:59.360 And I think is important that people understand that the 2:20:59.440 --> 2:21:01.880 level three warning that buzzed on people's phones of the 2:21:01.920 --> 2:21:05.280 emergency alert came not very long before they saw fires 2:21:05.320 --> 2:21:07.160 and even structures on fire in the neighborhood. 2:21:07.200 --> 2:21:07.360 Right. 2:21:07.360 --> 2:21:09.880 I think people sometimes think that someone will come and 2:21:09.959 --> 2:21:13.400 tell you when it is your time to leave, and 2:21:13.480 --> 2:21:16.440 that's not always going to be possible, right, And again, 2:21:16.480 --> 2:21:18.800 I'm not conveying that to say that, like the response 2:21:18.840 --> 2:21:19.480 here was poor. 2:21:19.520 --> 2:21:22.080 I'm conveying that to say that. 2:21:22.000 --> 2:21:25.080 People need to understand this because we're all going to 2:21:25.160 --> 2:21:26.920 have to live with fire in the West because there 2:21:26.920 --> 2:21:30.600 has always been fire here. The climate is changing and 2:21:31.680 --> 2:21:34.720 we are pushing our homes further and further into the 2:21:34.760 --> 2:21:38.360 wildland urban interface, and that is where this fire began. 2:21:38.520 --> 2:21:41.320 Right on Saturday. This state was a tinderbox, and it 2:21:41.360 --> 2:21:44.280 was these neighborhoods along the wildland urban interface that caught 2:21:44.320 --> 2:21:46.640 the brnt of these fast moving fires that had a 2:21:46.640 --> 2:21:48.800 plentiful source of fuel and were pushed along. 2:21:48.600 --> 2:21:49.119 By the wind. 2:21:49.560 --> 2:21:52.160 Currently, about a third of the two hundred thousand people 2:21:52.160 --> 2:21:55.920 who live here in Spokane have been placed under evacuations 2:21:56.080 --> 2:21:58.360 orders and the community is obviously feeling the way of that, 2:21:58.760 --> 2:22:01.039 along with the hundreds of people who lost their homes 2:22:01.080 --> 2:22:04.560 and all their possessions. Here notable points of the evacuations 2:22:04.560 --> 2:22:08.000 included buses evacuating people from Old Folks homes and a 2:22:08.080 --> 2:22:11.520 VA hospital was also evacuated by buses. And of course 2:22:11.959 --> 2:22:15.119 many people left their homes in their cars with their possessions, 2:22:15.120 --> 2:22:17.640 their pets, their families, etc. And of course that resulted 2:22:17.720 --> 2:22:21.039 in very slow moving traffic. Nonetheless, from what I heard 2:22:21.040 --> 2:22:23.360 this morning, seems everyone evacuated in time at least to 2:22:23.440 --> 2:22:27.320 save themselves. I know many people will be dealing with 2:22:27.879 --> 2:22:30.959 tragedies right They've lost their homes, people will have lost pets, 2:22:31.720 --> 2:22:35.000 people will have lost things that are incredibly important to them. 2:22:35.640 --> 2:22:36.320 I spoke to. 2:22:37.240 --> 2:22:39.680 People out on the Covial Tribes reservation who were saying 2:22:39.720 --> 2:22:44.280 they had lost homes that their father, mother, grandparents built 2:22:44.280 --> 2:22:47.520 with their hands, right these intergenerational homes that had gone. 2:22:47.959 --> 2:22:50.840 That is absolutely tragic. I want to give an update 2:22:51.000 --> 2:22:53.640 that I got this morning from a public information officer 2:22:53.680 --> 2:22:56.800 of the IMT that's managing this fire, so we'll drop 2:22:56.840 --> 2:22:58.080 that in right now. 2:22:58.480 --> 2:22:59.680 My name's Tom Stokesbury. 2:23:00.240 --> 2:23:03.920 I'm the lead public information officer for California Interagency Incident 2:23:03.959 --> 2:23:07.120 Management Team seven. So right now, there's three fires that 2:23:07.160 --> 2:23:09.200 make up the Spokane area fires. That's going to be 2:23:09.240 --> 2:23:12.600 the Fairview Fire, the Old Trails Fire, and the Autumn 2:23:12.680 --> 2:23:16.240 Lane Fire. Currently all totaled in the acres is ten 2:23:16.760 --> 2:23:20.520 five hundred and forty But over the last twenty four hours, 2:23:20.520 --> 2:23:23.920 our firefighters have made tremendous progress in putting control lines 2:23:24.000 --> 2:23:27.200 in around the entire perimeter of all three fires. Now 2:23:27.240 --> 2:23:29.959 that doesn't mean the fires contained or controlled. We just 2:23:30.040 --> 2:23:33.400 have those management and control lines. There still have an 2:23:33.400 --> 2:23:36.800 active firefight. Sty'll have active flames in the interior. To 2:23:36.840 --> 2:23:39.240 the point, on the Old Trails and Fairview fire, we 2:23:39.280 --> 2:23:41.520 actually had a spot outside the line on each one 2:23:41.560 --> 2:23:44.360 of those that went to about an acre acre and 2:23:44.360 --> 2:23:46.600 a half, but we had the resources in the right 2:23:46.600 --> 2:23:48.120 place and they were able to pick those up at 2:23:48.120 --> 2:23:51.520 about one acre each. So that just kind of proves 2:23:51.560 --> 2:23:55.120 that there's still active heat hot spots in this interior 2:23:55.440 --> 2:23:57.840 and that's why we have engines and all three of 2:23:57.920 --> 2:24:00.680 these fires still protecting the structures that have not been 2:24:00.720 --> 2:24:04.840 impacted yet because any kind of wind can throw embers, 2:24:05.200 --> 2:24:07.800 and right now, the receptive fuels in this area. In 2:24:07.840 --> 2:24:10.119 by fuels, I mean the vegetation that is so dry, 2:24:10.240 --> 2:24:14.439 right your grass, your brush, it's very receptive to those embers. 2:24:14.800 --> 2:24:17.840 Proof being is the two spot fires. But we have 2:24:17.920 --> 2:24:20.680 thirteen hundred firefighters here. We're expected to be over two 2:24:20.720 --> 2:24:21.959 thousand by the end of the week. 2:24:22.400 --> 2:24:24.480 I also asked about the number of structures impacted and 2:24:24.600 --> 2:24:27.080 when people here can expect to return home. And here's 2:24:27.080 --> 2:24:27.800 what Tom said. 2:24:28.120 --> 2:24:30.440 Right now, we're well over seven hundred structures that have 2:24:30.520 --> 2:24:34.440 been impacted. We do have damage assessment personnel ordered and 2:24:34.840 --> 2:24:37.360 en route. It's my understanding they'll be showing up today 2:24:37.360 --> 2:24:38.879 and we'll have them on the ground tomorrow. So we're 2:24:38.879 --> 2:24:41.080 going to start to get a more accurate number of 2:24:41.120 --> 2:24:44.360 what those impacted structures look like versus a total loss 2:24:44.360 --> 2:24:47.160 to just an impacted structure. And those structures include not 2:24:47.200 --> 2:24:52.000 only people's personal homes, but garages, outbuildings, sheds. But we're 2:24:52.000 --> 2:24:53.800 going to get a better accurate number on those over 2:24:53.840 --> 2:24:56.640 these next few days, trying to get these communities back 2:24:56.680 --> 2:24:59.520 to where we can get them repopulated. But in addition 2:24:59.560 --> 2:25:02.440 to that, there there's a tremendous amount of hasmat in there. 2:25:02.600 --> 2:25:07.120 We're talking burned solar panels, we're talking LPG, possible gas leaks, 2:25:07.720 --> 2:25:10.520 the building materials from homes that have been burnt, the 2:25:10.560 --> 2:25:13.400 stuff that's inside those homes. There is a lot of hazmat. 2:25:13.760 --> 2:25:15.600 So we have to ensure the public is going to 2:25:15.640 --> 2:25:18.240 be safe before we repopulate and let them back in there, 2:25:18.280 --> 2:25:21.720 because our ultimate goal is life first, then property, and 2:25:21.760 --> 2:25:24.000 that life is not just firefighters, it's the public safety. 2:25:24.080 --> 2:25:24.840 Yeah. 2:25:25.000 --> 2:25:26.760 Well, I was at the fire based camp also ran 2:25:26.760 --> 2:25:29.760 into local community members and businesses who are helping out. 2:25:29.920 --> 2:25:35.920 People were constantly dropping off food and snacks and supplies. 2:25:36.440 --> 2:25:39.879 His One local business owner who explained his efforts to. 2:25:39.920 --> 2:25:43.000 Me, So, my name is Tim Codzy. I'm with JK. Boots. 2:25:43.160 --> 2:25:45.240 I'm one of the owners with my brother, and. 2:25:46.000 --> 2:25:48.400 I asked him what him and his company we're doing 2:25:48.400 --> 2:25:49.280 to support the community. 2:25:49.520 --> 2:25:52.600 On Wednesday, August fifth, we're doing something home Front Day. 2:25:52.760 --> 2:25:54.560 We're going to donate one hundred percent of all the 2:25:54.560 --> 2:25:57.200 profits of that day to the Spokane residents who lost 2:25:57.240 --> 2:25:59.240 their homes so they could do that, they could participate 2:25:59.280 --> 2:26:01.720 just on our website and just do something, just get 2:26:01.760 --> 2:26:04.120 something and that'll go to those people. The other things 2:26:04.160 --> 2:26:05.840 you can do is you can come here and you 2:26:05.879 --> 2:26:09.840 can offer to drop off you know again, drinks, wipes, essentials. 2:26:09.879 --> 2:26:12.480 You can look on Facebook, they've posted those things. The 2:26:12.520 --> 2:26:15.120 other big thing is just there's other funds that are 2:26:15.160 --> 2:26:18.040 set up that have like meal trains, and because there's 2:26:18.080 --> 2:26:20.040 about sixty thousand people that are still not a bit 2:26:20.160 --> 2:26:21.440 not able to go back to their homes. 2:26:21.600 --> 2:26:27.760 Yeah, yeah, what's happening in Spokene is tragic and it 2:26:27.840 --> 2:26:30.520 is going to impact this community for years to come. 2:26:30.720 --> 2:26:33.640 It will take a very long time for rebuilding to happen, 2:26:33.720 --> 2:26:36.920 and probably even longer for people to heal emotionally. I 2:26:36.959 --> 2:26:39.800 want to make sure that we do not overlook the 2:26:39.879 --> 2:26:43.199 several large ongoing fires are impacting the indigenous communities around 2:26:43.240 --> 2:26:46.280 the city though, because as resources shift to the fires 2:26:46.280 --> 2:26:48.800 that then the city, these communities will see fewer resources, 2:26:48.800 --> 2:26:52.040 and indeed they already have seen fewer resources. I spent 2:26:52.080 --> 2:26:55.640 the last couple of days visiting the Colville Tribes Reservations 2:26:55.640 --> 2:26:57.320 Spokane Tribe Reservations. 2:26:57.440 --> 2:26:57.840 Today. 2:26:57.920 --> 2:26:59.920 I spoke to folks who would cut their own file 2:27:00.280 --> 2:27:02.760 around their homes and communities who were prepared to fight 2:27:02.800 --> 2:27:06.160 the fire. And indigenous people here have lived with fire 2:27:06.480 --> 2:27:10.480 for thousands of years, right, They have a deep understanding 2:27:10.520 --> 2:27:13.520 of fire, and people there had decided to stay and 2:27:13.560 --> 2:27:16.280 to defend their communities, even in areas that were impacted 2:27:16.320 --> 2:27:20.720 by Level three evacuations. Not everybody, right, Some people who 2:27:20.959 --> 2:27:24.400 were more vulnerable, Some people who were not able to 2:27:24.440 --> 2:27:26.360 pass this bit in that response or didn't feel safe 2:27:26.360 --> 2:27:29.760 doing so, left, and the folks stayed. As resources continue 2:27:29.800 --> 2:27:32.440 to be diverted to fight these fires and spokene, and 2:27:32.520 --> 2:27:34.840 as news coverage will continue to center on the city, 2:27:34.879 --> 2:27:37.120 folks who lost their homes out in these tribal communities 2:27:37.760 --> 2:27:39.879 will also need help, and it might be harder for 2:27:39.920 --> 2:27:42.400 them to find it. Some of these people are still 2:27:42.440 --> 2:27:45.440 in their homes. Just today, I spoke to several people 2:27:45.480 --> 2:27:47.520 who determined to do the hardest to save their homes 2:27:47.520 --> 2:27:49.840 and hoping that the wind doesn't pick up. They're cutting 2:27:49.879 --> 2:27:52.800 their own fire lines. In several cases, forestry and mining 2:27:52.840 --> 2:27:55.080 workers as well as tribal community members who were on 2:27:55.120 --> 2:27:58.320 contract fire crews, have been using their machinery and their 2:27:58.360 --> 2:28:01.720 skills to clear space and create better firebreaks around their communities. 2:28:02.120 --> 2:28:06.720 It's a really tragic and difficult situation, especially when combined 2:28:06.800 --> 2:28:09.800 with this reporting that I will link to of Red 2:28:09.800 --> 2:28:13.640 Cross volunteers making racist remarks shelters that made Indigenous folks 2:28:13.640 --> 2:28:16.600 feel unwelcome there. I don't think I need to repeat those, 2:28:16.600 --> 2:28:17.920 but I will link to the story if you'd like 2:28:18.000 --> 2:28:20.320 to read it. It is also, of course amazing to 2:28:20.320 --> 2:28:22.720 see the strengths and resilience of communities coming together to 2:28:22.760 --> 2:28:26.039 take care of one another in these tragic situations. I 2:28:26.120 --> 2:28:30.440 particularly want to highlight the work of the River Warriors Society. 2:28:30.920 --> 2:28:34.119 I spend today with them moving supplies from one reservation 2:28:34.160 --> 2:28:36.800 to another. I will include a link to the Spokane 2:28:36.879 --> 2:28:39.600 Tribal Network, which people can use if they'd like to 2:28:39.600 --> 2:28:41.840 donate to support that mutual laid work. They're really doing 2:28:41.879 --> 2:28:45.400 excellent work. They're getting people what they need, They're filling 2:28:45.400 --> 2:28:49.200 those gaps. They're moving more quickly than big organizations of 2:28:49.280 --> 2:28:53.160 big government things can even tribal governments where it will 2:28:53.160 --> 2:28:56.680 require paperwork, whereas what they're doing is literally standing at 2:28:56.680 --> 2:29:00.120 gas stations using cards to pay for people's gas so 2:29:00.160 --> 2:29:02.200 they can get where they need to go right, getting 2:29:02.200 --> 2:29:05.200 people hotel rooms, getting people food, getting people the things 2:29:05.240 --> 2:29:09.320 they need to get through this and to begin healing. Today, 2:29:09.480 --> 2:29:12.039 I help load hundreds of pounds of pet food and 2:29:12.200 --> 2:29:15.440 animal food into a trailer, for instance, so that people 2:29:15.440 --> 2:29:18.800 who need to feed their animals don't have to drive 2:29:18.840 --> 2:29:21.360 for hours away from their homes right when the risk 2:29:21.400 --> 2:29:23.040 of fire is high and they want to stay home 2:29:23.200 --> 2:29:25.119 and do what they can to protect their homes. They're 2:29:25.160 --> 2:29:27.200 really doing excellent work, and I would encourage you to 2:29:27.200 --> 2:29:29.840 support them movie you have the resources. I will have 2:29:29.879 --> 2:29:32.640 more of this when I get home. Currently, really tired, 2:29:33.320 --> 2:29:36.840 smell like a campfire, and I am in the bathroom 2:29:36.920 --> 2:29:38.959 of a motel because it is the only quiet place 2:29:38.959 --> 2:29:42.760 I could find. If you'd like to donate, I would 2:29:42.800 --> 2:29:46.320 suggest the Spokane Trible Network and I'll include their web address. 2:29:46.640 --> 2:29:49.760 It's Spokantrible Network dot org, not hard to find. I 2:29:49.760 --> 2:29:52.640 will also include the Innovia Foundation web page for donation 2:29:52.879 --> 2:29:56.959 to folks in Spokane and their ongoing recovery. And yeah, 2:29:57.040 --> 2:29:58.480 I'll have more on this soon. 2:29:59.440 --> 2:29:59.720 Everyone. 2:30:00.240 --> 2:30:02.600 Again, just a little pick up here that I wanted 2:30:02.640 --> 2:30:06.959 to add. Someone has been arrested for arson in connection 2:30:07.040 --> 2:30:10.360 with the Autumn Trails fire. I want to remind everyone 2:30:10.600 --> 2:30:14.800 that an arrest is not a conviction. There were three 2:30:14.879 --> 2:30:19.080 fires and impacted spoken and that fire needs more than ignition, 2:30:19.600 --> 2:30:22.080 right to spread in the way that they did here. 2:30:22.240 --> 2:30:25.800 It needs fuel crucially in this example, and that fuel 2:30:25.840 --> 2:30:26.440 was already there. 2:30:26.520 --> 2:30:26.680 Right. 2:30:26.720 --> 2:30:29.720 That's why I wanted to highlight the PDS that was 2:30:29.720 --> 2:30:34.200 issued on the first of August. Now, I also want 2:30:34.200 --> 2:30:35.720 to address these conspiracy theories. 2:30:35.800 --> 2:30:36.000 Right. 2:30:36.440 --> 2:30:39.880 The most common conspiracy theory seems to be that this 2:30:40.240 --> 2:30:44.520 was an attempt by big data center companies to clear 2:30:44.560 --> 2:30:47.959 a block of land in order to have a place 2:30:48.000 --> 2:30:50.080 where they could put a data center. I can tell 2:30:50.120 --> 2:30:53.600 you that I've spent the last two days driving hundreds 2:30:53.600 --> 2:30:57.960 of miles around eastern Washington. There is plenty of land 2:30:58.320 --> 2:31:00.760 where you could put a data center here without burning 2:31:00.800 --> 2:31:04.680 down the neighborhood. Data centers aren't that they are destroying 2:31:05.040 --> 2:31:09.360 so many beautiful places and so many wonderful things. It 2:31:09.400 --> 2:31:13.240 doesn't mean that they are comic book evil all the time. 2:31:14.160 --> 2:31:18.360 I think we need to inject a little rational thought here. 2:31:18.360 --> 2:31:20.879 We don't have any evidence that it was a data center. 2:31:21.120 --> 2:31:24.960 We did, then people would be presenting it. But the 2:31:25.000 --> 2:31:28.520 data center hypothesis seems to rest on people want to 2:31:28.520 --> 2:31:32.840 build the data center near here, therefore burn down neighborhoods, 2:31:33.000 --> 2:31:37.400 or the relatively common and frequently recurrent fifteen minute cities 2:31:37.440 --> 2:31:42.360 conspiracy theory, which suggests that rather than fifteen minute cities 2:31:42.360 --> 2:31:45.600 being an aspirational goal for urban planning and a framework 2:31:45.640 --> 2:31:51.320 around which you consider permitting, building and potentially growing our cities, 2:31:51.840 --> 2:31:55.120 they are some kind of George Sorrows mandated dictat that 2:31:55.280 --> 2:31:58.039 is now being enforced by burning people's neighborhoods down in 2:31:58.120 --> 2:32:02.520 suburban areas. Again to support that other than this wasn't 2:32:03.320 --> 2:32:05.760 a city that, you know, the fifteen minute city people 2:32:06.000 --> 2:32:09.200 consider to be a fifteen minute city. I want to 2:32:09.200 --> 2:32:11.600 address these things because they come up every single time 2:32:11.920 --> 2:32:14.920 there's a fire, and I think we need and we're 2:32:14.920 --> 2:32:17.160 going to talk about this more in my show Natural Causes, 2:32:17.160 --> 2:32:19.480 which you can hear from seventeenth of August wherever Good 2:32:19.480 --> 2:32:22.039 Podcast giving away for free. There are going to be 2:32:22.160 --> 2:32:26.800 fires in this ecosystem forever. There have been fires, since 2:32:26.800 --> 2:32:31.480 there have been plants to burn. Lightning started fires before 2:32:31.520 --> 2:32:34.640 people ever did. But the people who have been here 2:32:34.680 --> 2:32:37.440 for tens of thousands of years have lived along side 2:32:37.480 --> 2:32:40.840 fire for all that time. We can't entirely suppress fire 2:32:40.840 --> 2:32:44.280 and remove it from our landscape. This landscape needs fire, 2:32:44.280 --> 2:32:47.600 and it evolved co evolved with fire. But there are 2:32:47.680 --> 2:32:51.960 ways that we can prevent fire from doing what happened today, 2:32:52.400 --> 2:32:54.480 but they require a lot of effort, they require a 2:32:54.480 --> 2:32:59.400 lot of resources, and they require some rethinking of how 2:32:59.440 --> 2:33:02.320 we live along. That's something I'd like to approach later 2:33:02.440 --> 2:33:05.240 and in more detail. But I guess I just wanted 2:33:05.280 --> 2:33:07.400 to address these conspiracy theories because I see more and 2:33:07.440 --> 2:33:09.440 more of them. Also want to point out that there 2:33:09.480 --> 2:33:12.200 is no meaningful restitution that be astracted from one person 2:33:12.200 --> 2:33:15.800 if that person did start the fire. Healing doesn't come 2:33:15.920 --> 2:33:21.040 from punishing someone, comes from helping someone. And in this situation, 2:33:21.200 --> 2:33:24.480 there are hundreds of families who lost their homes, both 2:33:24.520 --> 2:33:27.840 on the Coval Tribes reservation, the Spokane Tribe Reservation, and 2:33:27.920 --> 2:33:30.920 here in Spokane the city, and I think the focus 2:33:30.920 --> 2:33:32.640 should be on how to help those people and how 2:33:32.680 --> 2:33:36.400 to help them heal, rather than blaming one person who 2:33:36.480 --> 2:33:38.560 may have started this fire, who may not write. We 2:33:38.600 --> 2:33:41.800 haven't got a conviction yet, but either way, I want 2:33:41.840 --> 2:33:44.440 people to remember that this is about a lot more 2:33:44.480 --> 2:33:45.119 than one person. 2:33:48.800 --> 2:33:54.320 Thank you, James. In other news, on Monday, A federal 2:33:54.440 --> 2:33:58.280 judge issued a preliminary injunction blocking New York's ban on 2:33:58.520 --> 2:34:03.120 ice agents wearing manks. New York State is suing to 2:34:03.200 --> 2:34:06.840 shut down Calshie for operating as an unregulated sports betting 2:34:06.879 --> 2:34:11.040 platform that offers illegal underage gambling. The state is also 2:34:11.160 --> 2:34:15.320 seeking thirty six billion dollars in penalties, and this lawsuit 2:34:15.360 --> 2:34:19.600 comes after a district court ruled against Calshi in their 2:34:19.600 --> 2:34:23.080 bid to protect itself from the enforcement of New York's 2:34:23.160 --> 2:34:27.440 gambling laws. Prior to this lawsuit from the state, Calshe 2:34:27.480 --> 2:34:31.359 attempted to bribe Governor Kathy Hokel by offering ten billion 2:34:31.400 --> 2:34:35.080 in tax revenue over five years. The governor responded on 2:34:35.480 --> 2:34:38.640 the everything app quote, Calshi can promise one hundred percent 2:34:38.720 --> 2:34:41.480 of its revenue. You can't buy yourself an exemption from 2:34:41.600 --> 2:34:44.320 New York law. If an i legal bookie offers this 2:34:44.400 --> 2:34:47.160 state a share of their profits, will still shut them 2:34:47.240 --> 2:34:51.800 down unquote. In response to a lawsuit from Trump accusing 2:34:51.920 --> 2:34:56.640 Capital One of unlawfully closing his bank accounts for political reasons, 2:34:57.120 --> 2:34:59.520 a Capital One is revealed in court filings that the 2:34:59.560 --> 2:35:02.760 Trump or organization bank accounts were closed in twenty twenty 2:35:02.800 --> 2:35:08.000 one for quote unquote anti money laundering reasons, following quote 2:35:08.200 --> 2:35:11.680 months of analysis and careful review by the bank's money 2:35:11.760 --> 2:35:15.039 laundering team. A few wants prior to the closure of 2:35:15.040 --> 2:35:17.640 Trump's accounts, Capital One had to pay a three hundred 2:35:17.680 --> 2:35:20.600 and ninety million dollar penalty to the Financial Crimes Enforcement 2:35:20.640 --> 2:35:24.800 Network for not enforcing an effective anti money laundering program. 2:35:25.520 --> 2:35:29.720 Acting Attorney General Todd Blanche's Senate confirmation hearing is coming up, 2:35:29.959 --> 2:35:33.680 but last week President Trump said he would keep Blanche 2:35:33.720 --> 2:35:38.199 on as acting Attorney General if Blanche doesn't get confirmed, 2:35:38.760 --> 2:35:42.160 and just try to nominate him again after the midterms. 2:35:43.480 --> 2:35:47.000 The US Attorney has dropped charges against three people who 2:35:47.040 --> 2:35:51.560 were accused of damaging the Lincoln Memorial reflecting Pool. The 2:35:51.600 --> 2:35:55.080 motion to dismiss the felony charge against the former Olympic 2:35:55.160 --> 2:35:59.040 athlete claims that it wasn't until after he was indicted 2:35:59.240 --> 2:36:02.599 that the Department of Interior gave evidence over to prosecutors 2:36:02.840 --> 2:36:05.840 that quote damaged to the Lincoln Memorial Reflecting Pool in 2:36:05.920 --> 2:36:08.840 July twenty twenty six was the result of flawed installation 2:36:09.000 --> 2:36:12.080 by the contractor and the rush to complete the project 2:36:12.160 --> 2:36:15.800 prior to events associated with America two fifty celebration in 2:36:15.840 --> 2:36:20.160 the weeks surrounding Independence Day twenty twenty six. The motion 2:36:20.320 --> 2:36:24.360 also states, quote is difficult to attribute the widespread damage 2:36:24.360 --> 2:36:29.039 to the reflecting pool to vandalism unquote. Of course, Trump 2:36:29.080 --> 2:36:32.320 was not too happy about this, turning to truth social 2:36:32.480 --> 2:36:36.760 to say, I disagree one hundred percent with the Chennin Piro, 2:36:37.600 --> 2:36:39.920 the US attorney for the District of Columbia on the 2:36:39.959 --> 2:36:43.400 reflecting Pool. I don't know what she was thinking. To me, 2:36:43.640 --> 2:36:46.960 it was a pure case of vandalism in all caps. 2:36:47.400 --> 2:36:50.280 That includes the grass which had a big eighty six 2:36:50.480 --> 2:36:54.120 forty seven emblazoned in giant letters on it, Oh my god, 2:36:54.600 --> 2:36:57.119 and many other elements of the surrounding area. 2:36:57.720 --> 2:37:00.519 Ah god, ah god, oh God. 2:37:00.959 --> 2:37:04.760 There may have been some contract or difficulty, but the 2:37:04.840 --> 2:37:09.800 major damage was caused by vandals. President dj T. The 2:37:09.800 --> 2:37:13.440 President later said that Piro quote unquote folded like an 2:37:13.520 --> 2:37:17.520 umbrella end quote. Frankly, I think she choked because the 2:37:17.640 --> 2:37:21.240 judge was really vicious unquote. There was some speculation that 2:37:21.280 --> 2:37:24.959 he might fire the US attorney. That has not happened 2:37:25.240 --> 2:37:27.400 as of yet, but who knows. 2:37:27.800 --> 2:37:30.080 You know, it's it's the Trump administration. Things could have 2:37:30.200 --> 2:37:33.960 changed by the time we finished recording this. Yeah, there's 2:37:33.959 --> 2:37:35.880 I got thirty percent chance things will have changed by 2:37:35.879 --> 2:37:37.040 the time we finished recording this. 2:37:38.120 --> 2:37:40.320 Obviously, it's good that these charges were dropped. It was 2:37:40.520 --> 2:37:43.200 very clear that the damage to the reflecting pool was 2:37:43.240 --> 2:37:44.359 not done by vandals. 2:37:44.480 --> 2:37:48.960 No, and that fucking late, middle aged former olympian bending 2:37:49.080 --> 2:37:51.840 briefly down to touch the water did not cause one 2:37:51.920 --> 2:37:54.560 hundred and fifty foot cut in the fucking in this 2:37:54.720 --> 2:37:56.720 central Absolutely not. 2:37:58.800 --> 2:37:59.560 Oh god. 2:38:00.320 --> 2:38:03.840 Ohio House Rep. Max Miller, who's accused of abuse and 2:38:03.879 --> 2:38:06.720 breaking his two year old daughter's collarbone, which we covered 2:38:06.760 --> 2:38:10.920 last week, posted a video this week addressing the allegations 2:38:10.959 --> 2:38:13.720 made by his ex wife, saying, quote if I had 2:38:13.720 --> 2:38:16.560 assaulted her, would she have offered to cook me dinner 2:38:16.600 --> 2:38:21.080 six days later? Un quote. The next day, Trump was 2:38:21.200 --> 2:38:23.520 questioned about Miller and said this. 2:38:23.800 --> 2:38:26.160 It's a very sad thing. I know Max, he said, 2:38:26.840 --> 2:38:28.640 it's a good person. I mean, I always thought he 2:38:28.720 --> 2:38:31.120 was a very good person. And I'm gonna let the 2:38:31.120 --> 2:38:35.560 families figure that out. Those families, I know they're working 2:38:35.640 --> 2:38:38.280 on it. It's a very sad thing, especially when you 2:38:38.360 --> 2:38:42.200 know somebody so well could be going through that when 2:38:42.280 --> 2:38:46.560 it's accusations, and I'm gonna let them figure that out. 2:38:46.760 --> 2:38:49.720 On Tuesday, it was announced the House Ethics Committee would 2:38:49.720 --> 2:38:54.720 open investigation after Miller himself requested a probe into the allegations. 2:38:55.879 --> 2:38:58.400 Let's go to an ad break and then return to 2:38:58.480 --> 2:39:01.960 talk about the primary elections in Michigan and Missouri. 2:39:02.520 --> 2:39:16.920 Yeah, okay, we are back. 2:39:18.680 --> 2:39:22.480 This past Tuesday, left wing populist candidate Abdul el Said 2:39:22.959 --> 2:39:27.360 beat corporate backed and APAC backed candidate Hailey Stevens in 2:39:27.440 --> 2:39:31.959 the Democratic Senate primary in Michigan. In the week prior 2:39:32.160 --> 2:39:35.600 to the election, pulling and showed el Said pulling way 2:39:35.640 --> 2:39:38.680 ahead by double digits, but from election night he won 2:39:38.760 --> 2:39:42.200 by just one point forty eight point five percent to 2:39:42.200 --> 2:39:47.640 Stephen's forty seven point five percent. Very close race. Great 2:39:47.879 --> 2:39:52.760 The more traditional progressive candidate Mallorie McMorrow, who suspended her 2:39:52.800 --> 2:39:56.000 campaign months ago, got four percent of the vote over 2:39:56.080 --> 2:39:59.840 sixty thousand votes. El Sayid ended up winning by j 2:40:00.240 --> 2:40:04.040 fifteen thousand votes. But the fact that Tuesday wasn't a 2:40:04.080 --> 2:40:07.440 total blowout for el Sayid should not take away from 2:40:07.440 --> 2:40:11.359 the magnitude of this victory. Hailey Stevens had nearly seventy 2:40:11.440 --> 2:40:15.080 million dollars of outside spending helping her in this race, 2:40:15.560 --> 2:40:19.240 about half of which came from APAC. Elseayid was outspent 2:40:19.360 --> 2:40:23.800 eleven to one. For the past month, Pro Stevens ads 2:40:23.800 --> 2:40:25.520 have completely dominated the airwaves. 2:40:25.840 --> 2:40:27.800 Jesus, I didn't know it was that big a discrepancy 2:40:27.800 --> 2:40:29.520 in funding. That's crazy. 2:40:29.879 --> 2:40:34.000 It's a brutal This is the most expensive Democratic Senate 2:40:34.040 --> 2:40:37.360 primary and history. A pack and dark money really rallied 2:40:37.400 --> 2:40:40.360 for Stevens, especially in this past month. 2:40:40.440 --> 2:40:40.920 Whoops. 2:40:41.720 --> 2:40:45.720 Some of those ads and mailers just completely blanketing Michigan 2:40:46.280 --> 2:40:49.680 falsely implied that Stevens was endorsed by Barack Obama, which 2:40:49.800 --> 2:40:54.240 some voters cited as their reason for supporting Stevens. Other 2:40:54.280 --> 2:40:57.959 ads tried to smear Abdul as a sexist podcast bro 2:40:58.320 --> 2:41:02.160 for comments critical of Michelle Obama and Gretchen Whitmer's politics. 2:41:02.760 --> 2:41:06.800 Stevens received the endorsement of Michigan's sitting governor, Gretchen Whitmer, 2:41:07.200 --> 2:41:11.439 as well as multiple Democratic Establishment figures Pelosi, Jim Cliburn, 2:41:11.640 --> 2:41:15.400 as well as the Michigan Democratic Party Black and Jewish caucuses. 2:41:15.920 --> 2:41:19.280 Israel and Palestine became a central issue in this race. 2:41:19.879 --> 2:41:22.720 In the last two debates, Abdul hit Stevens again and 2:41:22.800 --> 2:41:26.320 again over APAC and corporate funding. In the final debate, 2:41:26.400 --> 2:41:30.080 even the moderator questioned Stevens on whether her APAC funding 2:41:30.080 --> 2:41:33.360 would influence how she votes in Congress. Also in that 2:41:33.440 --> 2:41:36.600 last debate, Stevens lied on stage about taking money from 2:41:36.760 --> 2:41:40.480 utility companies. In an interview just a week before the election, 2:41:41.160 --> 2:41:46.080 Stevens addressed the attacks over dark money funding. Quote, it 2:41:46.120 --> 2:41:50.120 seems like we got the campaign finance zoomis Jesus Christ. 2:41:51.000 --> 2:41:54.000 We've got to be really honest here. Who's benefiting from 2:41:54.000 --> 2:41:57.480 this level of infighting. It's the republic kids who've already 2:41:57.520 --> 2:41:59.840 have all their dark money all lined up and ready 2:41:59.879 --> 2:42:02.680 to go. Unquote. Let's take a listen to what those 2:42:02.800 --> 2:42:07.480 campaign of finance zuomies can buy you in the Senate. 2:42:08.400 --> 2:42:12.440 Israel comes to me in my dreams. I see Israel's future, 2:42:12.760 --> 2:42:14.519 and I know that Israel. 2:42:14.240 --> 2:42:15.879 Will continue to exist for. 2:42:15.879 --> 2:42:18.080 The Jewish people, just the Zuomies. 2:42:18.280 --> 2:42:23.879 It's fine everyone, It's the Zuomies God, and she's Christ. 2:42:25.280 --> 2:42:27.440 I will not stop playing that clip because it's one 2:42:27.480 --> 2:42:30.120 of the craziest things to have A then sit in 2:42:30.160 --> 2:42:31.400 Congress person say. 2:42:31.640 --> 2:42:34.600 Yeah, now, Hailey. 2:42:34.640 --> 2:42:37.800 Stevens tried to attack Abduel for having a super pack 2:42:37.840 --> 2:42:40.560 off his own, primarily funded by his father in law, 2:42:41.480 --> 2:42:43.800 who did donate three hundred thousand dollars to the pack, 2:42:43.840 --> 2:42:47.120 which was the highest individual contribution. You know, three hundred 2:42:47.160 --> 2:42:50.959 thousand dollars from his father in law versus seventy million 2:42:51.040 --> 2:42:55.119 dollars of outside sped. Dick is christ not a very 2:42:55.120 --> 2:42:57.720 compelling argument, but that was that was one of the 2:42:57.720 --> 2:43:00.640 main things that Stevens tried to hit Abdul law during 2:43:00.640 --> 2:43:03.039 the last two debates when he brought up the massive 2:43:03.080 --> 2:43:06.120 amount of eight pack spending backing her campaign. Abdul has 2:43:06.120 --> 2:43:08.640 worked in public health since twenty fifteen, and for Senate 2:43:08.680 --> 2:43:11.480 he ran on Medicare for All and abolishing medical debt, 2:43:11.920 --> 2:43:14.560 which he did for three hundred thousand residents of Wayne 2:43:14.640 --> 2:43:17.640 County in twenty twenty four as director of the county 2:43:17.640 --> 2:43:21.640 Health Department. His platform also includes repealing Medicaid cuts from 2:43:21.760 --> 2:43:26.320 Trump's quote unquote beautiful bill, codifying reproductive rights, and protecting 2:43:26.360 --> 2:43:29.600 gender affirming care. His quote unquote money out of Politics 2:43:29.640 --> 2:43:32.920 plank includes getting rid of Citizens United to stop dark 2:43:33.000 --> 2:43:37.200 money packs, ending partisan gerrymandering, supporting Supreme Court reform, getting 2:43:37.240 --> 2:43:40.560 rid of the filibuster, abolishing ICE and at quote ICE 2:43:40.640 --> 2:43:43.840 funds should be repurposed to build out the legal infrastructure 2:43:44.000 --> 2:43:46.959 of courts to create a clear pathway to citizenship for 2:43:47.040 --> 2:43:49.600 those who are stuck in limbo in our current system. 2:43:50.680 --> 2:43:55.320 Abduel supports Ukraine and opposes quote the illegal and unjustifiable 2:43:55.360 --> 2:43:59.480 war in Iran. He also opposes quote direct blank check 2:43:59.520 --> 2:44:04.320 funding to foreign militaries including Egypt, Israel, Saudi Arabia, the UAE, 2:44:04.520 --> 2:44:08.920 and others. And he supports an immediate arms embargo on 2:44:09.120 --> 2:44:13.480 Israel and rejects quote the false differentiation between offensive and 2:44:13.720 --> 2:44:17.800 defensive weapons, which is a reference to the Iron Dome. 2:44:18.560 --> 2:44:22.560 His Money in Your Pocket platform includes an anti monopoly 2:44:22.680 --> 2:44:27.480 FTC trade agreements negotiated with unions, restoring funding to the NIH, 2:44:27.600 --> 2:44:32.320 opposing private school vouchers, tying increases in the defense budget 2:44:32.600 --> 2:44:36.320 to an equal increase in education funding, Taxing capital gains 2:44:36.360 --> 2:44:38.879 over a million dollars at the same rate as ordinary income, 2:44:39.280 --> 2:44:42.080 closing loopholes used by the ultrawealthy, raising the marginal tax 2:44:42.120 --> 2:44:45.400 rate on earnings over one million, and a billionaire tax. 2:44:45.879 --> 2:44:49.160 He also supports a cost of living exemption on federal 2:44:49.200 --> 2:44:52.720 taxes up to fifty thousand dollars and closing the Social 2:44:52.720 --> 2:44:56.959 Security payroll tax cap. For housing, his platform aims to 2:44:57.280 --> 2:45:00.480 streamline local regulations to make it easier to build, while 2:45:00.760 --> 2:45:04.320 banning large corporations that speculate on housing stock from owning 2:45:04.360 --> 2:45:09.480 homes and supporting legislation to ban algorithmic rental price fixing software. 2:45:10.120 --> 2:45:14.440 El Said supports regulating AI companies, creating an independent technical 2:45:14.440 --> 2:45:18.360 agency with real enforcement power for AI, which he cites 2:45:18.400 --> 2:45:21.000 the FDA as an example, but having basically an FDA 2:45:21.080 --> 2:45:26.000 type organization to regulate and handle AI. He also is 2:45:26.040 --> 2:45:29.120 in support of federal zoning guidelines and legislation to protect 2:45:29.120 --> 2:45:32.800 communities from the consequences of data centers. In a primary debate, 2:45:33.080 --> 2:45:35.879 el Said said that data center projects must meet the 2:45:36.000 --> 2:45:41.039 following terms quote all union labor, no raising our utility rates, 2:45:41.280 --> 2:45:45.320 increasing our utility reliability, not touching our water. And there's 2:45:45.360 --> 2:45:48.200 got to be a community benefits agreement that's negotiated in 2:45:48.240 --> 2:45:52.600 good faith with all the money put into escrowow el 2:45:52.680 --> 2:45:55.480 Said is not a DSA candidate. He does not call 2:45:55.560 --> 2:45:58.760 himself a socialist, but he was endorsed by Bernie Sanders 2:45:58.800 --> 2:46:02.360 AOC and can paint with Hassan Piker. He's also been 2:46:02.440 --> 2:46:06.200 backed by the UAW, National Nurses United, the Working Families Party, 2:46:06.400 --> 2:46:10.240 Jewish Voice for Peace, and If Not Now. A few 2:46:10.320 --> 2:46:14.879 days before the primary, but after polling indicated that Abdul 2:46:14.920 --> 2:46:19.120 would likely be the nominee, incumbent Republican Senator Mike Rodgers 2:46:19.520 --> 2:46:24.320 released an AI generated ad depicting Abduel as a communist 2:46:24.400 --> 2:46:26.720 trojan horse. Let's take a listen. 2:46:27.800 --> 2:46:29.080 They'll never see us coming. 2:46:31.320 --> 2:46:33.320 They really think we're just democrats. 2:46:35.160 --> 2:46:40.720 God Jesus Christ. Every AI ad, I hear Jeff Goldblum's 2:46:40.760 --> 2:46:43.920 fucking voice say, you were so obsessed with whether or 2:46:43.959 --> 2:46:46.240 not you could you didn't stop to think, you know, 2:46:46.360 --> 2:46:48.440 should we? Is this a good idea? Is this ad 2:46:48.520 --> 2:46:49.160 going to work? 2:46:50.160 --> 2:46:54.199 So basically, this ad has a trojan horse rolling into 2:46:54.200 --> 2:46:58.840 Michigan with a large banner reading definitely not Communism. Inside 2:46:58.879 --> 2:47:02.039 the horse of Duel is dressed as Odysseus from the 2:47:02.080 --> 2:47:05.400 Nolan movie, along with Bernie Sanders IOC and so on, 2:47:05.480 --> 2:47:09.680 Mom Donnie. Text at the end reads don't let communism 2:47:09.720 --> 2:47:13.680 into Michigan. Mike Rogers for US said it, I think 2:47:13.720 --> 2:47:17.520 Mike Rogers should keep releasing ads just like this, nothing else. 2:47:17.760 --> 2:47:20.520 I wanted him just to keep releasing these ads. I 2:47:20.560 --> 2:47:21.720 think that'll be great. 2:47:22.400 --> 2:47:23.000 Yeah. 2:47:23.360 --> 2:47:27.840 Rogers did release the statement after Abdul's victory. Quote, I 2:47:27.959 --> 2:47:32.480 spent years hunting terrorists and bringing Osama bid Laden to justice. 2:47:32.920 --> 2:47:34.800 Never in a million years did I think that I 2:47:34.800 --> 2:47:38.400 would be running against someone who believes America deserved nine 2:47:38.440 --> 2:47:42.120 to eleven unquote. Abdul has never said that, obviously. 2:47:42.320 --> 2:47:44.840 And I also think that this is a example of 2:47:45.000 --> 2:47:48.800 just the sheer level of racism that has defined this campaign. 2:47:48.920 --> 2:47:51.680 And we also saw versions of this with Mom Donnie. 2:47:51.680 --> 2:47:55.920 But like, just the the unhinged amount of Islamophobia that 2:47:55.959 --> 2:47:59.720 has been leveled against Ae just really really disturbing. 2:48:00.080 --> 2:48:03.040 And it's gonna get worse. Yeah, it's gonna get so 2:48:03.120 --> 2:48:03.480 much worse. 2:48:03.560 --> 2:48:03.800 Yeah. 2:48:03.959 --> 2:48:06.160 But it's also like this is an example of his 2:48:06.160 --> 2:48:08.400 almophobia from the Republicans, for the Democrats have been doing 2:48:08.400 --> 2:48:11.520 it too, and it's extremely bleak the extent to which 2:48:11.560 --> 2:48:13.800 this is just a thing you can do running a 2:48:13.800 --> 2:48:14.720 political campaign. 2:48:15.000 --> 2:48:19.119 Yeah, it's interesting because it isn't entirely, at least lately 2:48:19.360 --> 2:48:22.440 to their benefit either, Like it it recently really screwed 2:48:22.480 --> 2:48:26.000 them over in another Michigan race, right like Michigan's eighth district, 2:48:26.160 --> 2:48:29.360 the Republican primary between Thomas J. Smith, Amir Hassan and 2:48:29.480 --> 2:48:33.879 Al Limo. Thomas Smith took ahead even though he had 2:48:34.360 --> 2:48:37.280 like suspended his campaign this campaign, like more than a 2:48:37.280 --> 2:48:40.520 month ago. Amir Hassan had been endorsed by Trump and 2:48:40.600 --> 2:48:42.560 is not a Muslim, but has a name that kind 2:48:42.560 --> 2:48:44.840 of sounds like he would be like two a racist 2:48:45.600 --> 2:48:49.120 and so like it beasts. That's the suspicion as to 2:48:49.160 --> 2:48:51.600 why Hassan did not do better against someone who was 2:48:51.640 --> 2:48:52.760 not actively running. 2:48:53.080 --> 2:48:54.560 Yeah, was not campaign. 2:48:55.120 --> 2:48:58.000 A lot of anger on truth social by MAGA people 2:48:58.040 --> 2:49:01.000 who thought that Trump had endorsed a Muslim. Yeah, yeah, 2:49:01.040 --> 2:49:03.600 it's just I mean, like the level of bigotry is 2:49:03.640 --> 2:49:07.680 off the chart. It's interesting that it doesn't seem to 2:49:07.840 --> 2:49:10.199 or at least in this case, it torpedoed a Republican 2:49:10.240 --> 2:49:12.240 but not a Democrat, which I do think is kind 2:49:12.240 --> 2:49:14.440 of fun. But yeah, the overall trend is very much 2:49:14.480 --> 2:49:14.920 not fun. 2:49:15.440 --> 2:49:19.760 On a similar sort of note, last week, the Michigan 2:49:19.959 --> 2:49:25.840 State AGDNA Nessl announced at an ADL quote unquote anti 2:49:25.879 --> 2:49:29.760 Semitism roundtable great that she would not be attending the 2:49:29.760 --> 2:49:35.080 Michigan nominating convention for their Democratic nominee over fears of 2:49:35.120 --> 2:49:38.879 being booed for working with Trump and cash Hotel's FBI 2:49:38.959 --> 2:49:42.400 to indict the pro Palestine student protesters in June. 2:49:43.160 --> 2:49:46.560 I'm not going to be attending the nominating invention for 2:49:46.680 --> 2:49:51.800 the Michigan Democratic Party in August, and that is because 2:49:51.800 --> 2:49:53.000 of both state going. 2:49:53.600 --> 2:49:55.560 I feel like my presence is not even involved. 2:49:56.480 --> 2:49:58.400 I don't want to get it chased around. I don't 2:49:58.440 --> 2:49:59.320 want to get a prass. 2:49:59.320 --> 2:50:00.800 I don't want to in screedia. 2:50:01.480 --> 2:50:03.480 I don't want to get booed off. 2:50:03.200 --> 2:50:08.000 The stage, irrespective of what I'm saying. And I believe 2:50:08.080 --> 2:50:11.640 that if I go, that is both It's been happening 2:50:11.680 --> 2:50:11.920 to me. 2:50:13.440 --> 2:50:16.920 Gad fucked fuck yeah, which good like you are? 2:50:17.080 --> 2:50:21.840 You are by definition a collaborator for having participated in this. 2:50:22.160 --> 2:50:26.279 That is like the the absolute bare minimum of accountability 2:50:26.280 --> 2:50:28.280 that you should be facing is that you should be 2:50:28.320 --> 2:50:29.680 booed every single place you go to. 2:50:30.400 --> 2:50:34.080 Her office has tried for years to go after propels 2:50:34.160 --> 2:50:37.280 and protesters, and has been forced to drop charges because 2:50:37.320 --> 2:50:41.200 her office was specifically discriminatory, and she only got her 2:50:41.240 --> 2:50:44.080 way via teaming up with the Trump admin and cash 2:50:44.120 --> 2:50:47.600 hotels FBI to go after student protesters. This is something 2:50:47.640 --> 2:50:50.240 she's been trying to do for literal years and has 2:50:50.240 --> 2:50:54.000 been unable to because her her office is too racist. 2:50:54.360 --> 2:50:57.959 Yeah, and again also like student protesters were horribly brutalized 2:50:58.600 --> 2:51:01.160 by the police repeatedly. Is I think most people who 2:51:01.360 --> 2:51:03.560 listen to this remember to some extents. 2:51:03.640 --> 2:51:04.800 But Yeah. 2:51:05.680 --> 2:51:10.120 Also in Michigan, DSA endorsed Rashida Telib handily won her 2:51:10.120 --> 2:51:14.400 reelection in the District twelve primary with seventy four percent 2:51:14.440 --> 2:51:18.080 of the vote. Also in Michigan, left wing populist and 2:51:18.280 --> 2:51:21.560 co founder of the Sunrise Movement, William Lawrence won the 2:51:21.600 --> 2:51:25.440 Democratic primary for House District seven with about fifty six 2:51:25.560 --> 2:51:30.000 thousand votes. Two more kind of moderate candidates each got 2:51:30.280 --> 2:51:33.640 thirty five thousand votes, so there is a sort of 2:51:33.680 --> 2:51:39.320 moderates split here. Lawrence will now be facing the Republican 2:51:39.360 --> 2:51:43.600 incumbent Tom Barrett, who won by just four points in 2:51:43.680 --> 2:51:47.120 twenty twenty four. There's two hundred and twenty six thousand 2:51:47.200 --> 2:51:49.480 votes to two hundred and nine thousand votes, so this 2:51:49.800 --> 2:51:52.120 could end up being a close race. Really depends on 2:51:52.200 --> 2:51:52.879 voter turnout. 2:51:53.080 --> 2:51:53.400 Yeah. 2:51:53.560 --> 2:51:56.200 Now, Lawrence is a member of DSA but is not 2:51:56.320 --> 2:52:00.000 DSA endorsed, though he does have the endorsement of Sanders 2:52:00.080 --> 2:52:04.280 El said Rashida talib Rocana, the Nurses Union, Working Families Party, 2:52:04.320 --> 2:52:05.440 and track a PAK. 2:52:05.760 --> 2:52:06.720 Quick update here. 2:52:07.320 --> 2:52:11.080 Lawrence went on CNN a Wednesday night to clarify that 2:52:11.120 --> 2:52:13.320 while he used to be a member of DSA, he 2:52:13.480 --> 2:52:18.320 let his membership lapse last month. In the weeks before 2:52:18.400 --> 2:52:21.640 the election, Lawrence was attacked by the Democratic Establishment and 2:52:21.680 --> 2:52:26.000 the Congressional Black Caucus for being quote unquote racist because 2:52:26.000 --> 2:52:28.880 of a quote from a podcast conversation on black liberation 2:52:29.000 --> 2:52:32.199 and black anti war activism with an activist named Hui 2:52:32.320 --> 2:52:35.720 Peterson Smith. I'll read the full quote here that was 2:52:36.080 --> 2:52:40.320 clipped and spread around mainly by huff Post. Quote the 2:52:40.400 --> 2:52:43.480 extent to which the older generation of black political leadership 2:52:43.560 --> 2:52:47.520 are such a pillar, frankly for establishment, capitalist, imperialist American 2:52:47.560 --> 2:52:50.879 power through their role as this kind of traditionalist establishment 2:52:51.120 --> 2:52:54.439 is pillar of the Democratic Party. It's a big problem. 2:52:54.600 --> 2:52:57.280 It's a big problem for left politics in this country, 2:52:57.560 --> 2:53:00.680 and it gets us every single time. It really the 2:53:00.800 --> 2:53:04.640 white left and puts us in impossible positions. Really, quote 2:53:05.440 --> 2:53:10.240 Willly Lawrence told huff Post quote, I've tremendous respect for 2:53:10.400 --> 2:53:13.320 black community leaders who have been at the forefront of 2:53:13.360 --> 2:53:16.680 the fight for freedom for centuries. This was in the 2:53:16.720 --> 2:53:19.600 context of a wide ranging conversation with a guest on 2:53:19.640 --> 2:53:23.520 the show about racial dynamics in progressive politics. I regret 2:53:23.640 --> 2:53:28.600 how this specific point was expressed unquote, and yes, absolutely 2:53:28.600 --> 2:53:31.599 there is no reason to say the white left there specifically, 2:53:31.640 --> 2:53:34.440 this harms the entire left. There's really no reason to 2:53:34.440 --> 2:53:36.600 say that. This is part of a larger conversation in 2:53:36.640 --> 2:53:39.200 this podcast he was having about racial dynamics in like 2:53:39.280 --> 2:53:42.280 left wing spaces. But I think that is a bad 2:53:42.320 --> 2:53:46.560 thing to say. Lawrence added to his statement online, quote, 2:53:46.800 --> 2:53:49.039 the way I made this point was clumsy, and I 2:53:49.080 --> 2:53:52.560 regret my choice of words. I understand the potential impact 2:53:52.760 --> 2:53:55.400 when received out of context. The way the story is 2:53:55.440 --> 2:53:58.720 being reported does not reflect my beliefs. National elected leaders 2:53:58.720 --> 2:54:02.000 across race, ethnicity, age, and gender had been supporters of 2:54:02.120 --> 2:54:05.560 unnecessary US wars. This poses a challenge to the anti 2:54:05.560 --> 2:54:08.760 war movement. Americans of all races and ages must work 2:54:08.800 --> 2:54:12.360 together to advance peace. Until we do our resources, we'll 2:54:12.400 --> 2:54:15.119 go to funding war and genocide abroad rather than investing 2:54:15.120 --> 2:54:18.640 in infordable housing and healthcare, or closing the racial wealth gap. 2:54:20.280 --> 2:54:25.680 DSA candidate Donovan McKinney beat Democratic incumbent Shri Tanadar by 2:54:25.760 --> 2:54:31.160 almost four percent about four thousand votes in House District thirteen, 2:54:31.240 --> 2:54:34.680 another close race. It was looking like Shri might pull 2:54:34.720 --> 2:54:38.280 ahead earlier in the night, but Donovan did end up 2:54:38.320 --> 2:54:43.320 winning and will now likely become another DSA congressman. Tanadar 2:54:43.640 --> 2:54:47.560 was backed by Apak Hakeem Jeffries, the Congressional Progressive Caucus, 2:54:47.920 --> 2:54:51.920 and the center left New Democrat Coalition. But it's not 2:54:51.959 --> 2:54:56.760 all wins in Michigan. Kyle Blomquist, another DSA candidate for 2:54:56.920 --> 2:55:01.840 Congress in Michigan House District one, lost to Moderate Hayley Barr, 2:55:02.080 --> 2:55:05.920 who will now face the Republican incumbent in the general. 2:55:06.640 --> 2:55:12.039 And DSA endorsed Asha Farruki lost to pro Israel Democrat 2:55:12.200 --> 2:55:17.119 Jeffrey Moss for Hailey Stephens House seat. So those are 2:55:17.160 --> 2:55:21.280 the two main losses for DSA last Tuesday, both US 2:55:21.320 --> 2:55:24.200 House seats in Michigan, though I think it is interesting 2:55:24.240 --> 2:55:27.400 to note that Detroit is now the only major city 2:55:27.440 --> 2:55:30.360 in the country to be fully represented in the US 2:55:30.440 --> 2:55:35.680 House by DSA candidates and two Day Say candidates for 2:55:35.800 --> 2:55:40.360 the Michigan State House also won their primaries. In Missouri, 2:55:40.600 --> 2:55:44.720 Corey Bush lost her comeback bid to incumbent Wesley Bell, 2:55:45.200 --> 2:55:48.640 who was backed by a pack and was also really 2:55:48.760 --> 2:55:54.040 really outspent, and the Kansas City DSA endorsed candidate Harzel 2:55:54.200 --> 2:55:58.720 Gray lost his primary for House District four by just 2:55:58.879 --> 2:56:03.880 under two thousand vo very close race, so lots of wins, 2:56:04.160 --> 2:56:08.280 some losses, but even just l said winning is probably 2:56:08.640 --> 2:56:10.879 the biggest blow to a pack that we've seen yet. 2:56:11.560 --> 2:56:13.280 Like like I said, this is the most expensive Democratic 2:56:13.320 --> 2:56:16.480 Senate primary in history in a state with open primaries, 2:56:16.879 --> 2:56:20.040 where tens of millions of dollars in ad spending can 2:56:20.080 --> 2:56:23.280 go really far in rural areas and with older, low 2:56:23.320 --> 2:56:26.800 info voters, a left wing Muslim candidate overcoming both a 2:56:26.959 --> 2:56:30.360 PAC and the Democratic establishment in a swing state is 2:56:30.400 --> 2:56:35.800 a massive victory. I have one final little election update 2:56:36.680 --> 2:56:41.360 for the gobnatorial race in Ohio. Oh God, because in 2:56:41.480 --> 2:56:46.880 late July, Republican nominee for governor, the veck Ramaswami, spoke 2:56:47.080 --> 2:56:50.400 or tried to speak at the Young Americans for Liberty 2:56:50.520 --> 2:56:55.240 National Convention, an annual ron Paul Esque convention for young 2:56:55.280 --> 2:57:00.000 libertarian conservatives at Xavier University in Cincinnati, Ohio. Ramaswami Is 2:57:00.160 --> 2:57:04.280 speaking block was for thirty minutes. He lasted fourteen before 2:57:04.440 --> 2:57:06.920 being booed off stage. Let's take a lesson. 2:57:07.160 --> 2:57:09.400 Truth of the matter is, you know, no matter what 2:57:09.480 --> 2:57:11.480 happens in whichever direction goes people, my. 2:57:11.560 --> 2:57:13.200 Generational party made it. We're gonna be fun. 2:57:14.000 --> 2:57:16.599 It's gonna be your generation. 2:57:20.080 --> 2:57:22.520 You're a political green and you need to do. 2:57:27.959 --> 2:57:29.279 Seems like it's going great. 2:57:30.240 --> 2:57:32.920 So there are two cuts in that club. But all 2:57:32.920 --> 2:57:35.039 that audio is from the last like two minutes of 2:57:35.120 --> 2:57:38.640 his speech. Ramaswami was also booed as he first went 2:57:38.800 --> 2:57:39.600 onto stage. 2:57:39.760 --> 2:57:42.039 Great sign, Great sign, And. 2:57:41.959 --> 2:57:46.160 Throughout the fourteen minutes he was heckled over Israel, H one, B, visas, 2:57:46.240 --> 2:57:50.240 data centers, energy prices, and his comments about how the 2:57:50.320 --> 2:57:53.800 socialist government sees your home as a wealth asset, to 2:57:53.840 --> 2:57:56.840 which people in the crowd responded, we can't afford a home. 2:57:57.240 --> 2:58:02.840 Great, isn't the whole premise of our economy that your 2:58:02.879 --> 2:58:04.640 home is like a wealth asset? Right? 2:58:04.680 --> 2:58:04.760 Like? 2:58:04.879 --> 2:58:06.400 Yeah, no, that's socialism, Robert. 2:58:06.440 --> 2:58:08.879 Doesn't everyone who owns a home seat their home that way. 2:58:09.000 --> 2:58:11.199 Isn't that like the how all of the US economy 2:58:11.240 --> 2:58:13.720 is predicated on. I cannot emphasize this enough. 2:58:13.959 --> 2:58:17.160 Literally, this distinction between between your house as a wealth 2:58:17.160 --> 2:58:18.279 asset and your house. 2:58:18.080 --> 2:58:21.360 And you living in it. This is Chapter one of Capital. Yeah, 2:58:21.400 --> 2:58:22.560 that's a wild state. 2:58:23.879 --> 2:58:26.840 Well exactly that is communist, That is kind I think 2:58:26.840 --> 2:58:32.120 I think that that is exactly Ramaswami's point Throughout this 2:58:32.240 --> 2:58:35.280 fourteen minute speech. He tried to say that, like, the 2:58:35.400 --> 2:58:39.240 true divide in this country isn't isn't democrats as Republicans, 2:58:39.760 --> 2:58:43.240 but winners versus whiners. So why would you be a 2:58:43.280 --> 2:58:45.720 whiner and complain about all these things when you could 2:58:45.800 --> 2:58:50.039 just win? And this actually mirrors one of Hailey Stephens 2:58:50.160 --> 2:58:53.240 kind of late campaign tactics to refer to people to 2:58:53.280 --> 2:58:56.959 her left as being part of the quote unquote complaining class. 2:58:57.440 --> 2:58:59.800 Any like DSA, any kind of socialist person is part 2:58:59.840 --> 2:59:02.160 of the complaining class. Anyone talking about you know, a 2:59:02.360 --> 2:59:07.000 pak Israel, They're just complaining. Did not work out for Stevens, 2:59:06.800 --> 2:59:09.720 as we know, and this might not work out for 2:59:09.800 --> 2:59:14.640 Ramaswami either. Last month, the Cook Political Report switched the 2:59:14.680 --> 2:59:20.080 Ohio gobnatoil race from Lean's Republican to toss up and 2:59:20.320 --> 2:59:23.040 the latest New York Times Siena pol from late July 2:59:23.520 --> 2:59:25.000 has the race in a tie. 2:59:25.680 --> 2:59:27.600 All I have to add is that it's funny. 2:59:27.840 --> 2:59:28.920 Yeah, it is funny. 2:59:29.080 --> 2:59:32.480 And I picture him walking around the RNC like once 2:59:32.520 --> 2:59:36.879 a month. He looked like a sad little. 2:59:36.600 --> 2:59:39.520 Guy, not that little. His hair was very tall. 2:59:39.800 --> 2:59:41.080 His hair was very tall. 2:59:41.600 --> 2:59:46.120 His veneers, we were very right, were veneering. 2:59:46.560 --> 2:59:48.160 In the presidential race. You know, me and Robert were 2:59:48.200 --> 2:59:50.720 talking about how much, you know, Ramasamm was trying to 2:59:50.720 --> 2:59:54.680 go after this sort of like like groiper type of young, 2:59:54.800 --> 2:59:57.200 young conservative, right, that that was kind of what his 2:59:57.320 --> 2:59:59.240 like affect. That's a lot of stuff he was talking about, 2:59:59.280 --> 3:00:02.640 seemed seemed to be rooted in and at this you know, 3:00:02.800 --> 3:00:06.760 young Conservative convention, he was like loudly rejected. Right, this 3:00:06.840 --> 3:00:08.720 is the type of person that he's like trying the 3:00:08.720 --> 3:00:10.680 most to appeal to in some ways, or at least 3:00:10.800 --> 3:00:13.120 used to. This was also the case when he was 3:00:13.160 --> 3:00:15.960 doing campaign events with Charlie Kirk, one of which I 3:00:16.360 --> 3:00:19.960 went to in Georgia before the presidential election. But he 3:00:20.000 --> 3:00:21.640 was he was definitely trying to go after this sort 3:00:21.680 --> 3:00:24.920 of like young male Republican and like get make sure 3:00:24.959 --> 3:00:27.040 you mobilize them to the polls. Like that could be 3:00:27.080 --> 3:00:29.119 the thing that tips over the race, is like getting 3:00:29.120 --> 3:00:33.840 like young Republican males, and at least for the governatorial race, 3:00:34.560 --> 3:00:37.120 his strategy of like, you know, it's up to you 3:00:37.160 --> 3:00:39.640 to fix everything, Actually, millennials are going to be fine, 3:00:40.080 --> 3:00:43.440 don't complain too much might not actually help mobilize young 3:00:43.520 --> 3:00:47.320 voters in support of his campaign. So we will see 3:00:47.320 --> 3:00:52.240 how that goes come November. Let's pivot to ads and 3:00:52.280 --> 3:00:57.000 then return for some prediction market and tariff news, two 3:00:57.040 --> 3:00:59.000 great tastes that go great together. 3:01:11.600 --> 3:01:15.199 And we're back. So I wanted to talk a little 3:01:15.240 --> 3:01:18.240 bit more about the munition's crisis. I've reported several times 3:01:18.280 --> 3:01:21.160 on the growing munitions crisis that the US military faces, 3:01:21.600 --> 3:01:23.959 not just but largely as a result of our war 3:01:24.000 --> 3:01:27.480 of choice with AROD advanced munitions. Though like one hundred 3:01:27.520 --> 3:01:29.959 and fifty five milimeters artillery rounds have been stretched past 3:01:29.959 --> 3:01:33.120 the point of sustainability for years now, since the expansion 3:01:33.160 --> 3:01:35.960 of Russia's war with Ukraine, and so defense officials have 3:01:36.000 --> 3:01:38.680 spent much of the last four years scrambling to increase 3:01:38.720 --> 3:01:40.840 production of a number of different rounds, and there were 3:01:40.840 --> 3:01:43.760 a bunch of articles in like the spring early summer 3:01:43.800 --> 3:01:46.200 of twenty twenty five at the Trump Industry crowed over 3:01:46.200 --> 3:01:48.880 about how they'd finally met their goal of quadrupling production 3:01:48.920 --> 3:01:51.800 of one hundred and fifty five millimeters rounds, and a 3:01:51.879 --> 3:01:54.120 major part of this was the construction and opening in 3:01:54.160 --> 3:01:57.280 midcoat twenty twenty five of a fully operated one hundred 3:01:57.280 --> 3:02:00.760 and fifty five millimeters artillery shell factory in miss Texas. 3:02:01.080 --> 3:02:04.200 The factory is named Union Technologies. So that's all what 3:02:04.280 --> 3:02:08.280 the administration reported last year, right. I want to quote 3:02:08.280 --> 3:02:10.680 now from an article the Global Tactical Analysis Center put 3:02:10.680 --> 3:02:13.600 out in February of twenty twenty six. The US military 3:02:13.640 --> 3:02:15.840 is facing a significant crisis as production of one hundred 3:02:15.840 --> 3:02:18.360 and fifty five millimeters artillery rounds at the Mesquite factory 3:02:18.360 --> 3:02:21.480 has severely lagged. This shortfall raises alarms not only for 3:02:21.520 --> 3:02:24.760 domestic military readiness, but also for ongoing foreign military sales 3:02:24.800 --> 3:02:27.879 that depend on timely delivery of munitions. Army acquisitions are 3:02:27.920 --> 3:02:31.760 Bryn Ingraham expressed explicit dissatisfaction with the facility's performance during 3:02:31.760 --> 3:02:35.440 her recent congressional hearings, indicating that immediate investments are necessary 3:02:35.440 --> 3:02:38.360 to correct course and avoid further delays. The logistical and 3:02:38.360 --> 3:02:41.760 technical challenges at the Mesquite factory may involve outdated machinery 3:02:41.840 --> 3:02:44.959 or insufficient workforce levels to meet production quotas. Current estimates 3:02:44.959 --> 3:02:48.519 suggesting twenty five percent lag and output compared to contractual obligations, 3:02:49.000 --> 3:02:53.199 and that sounds bad in and of itself. That's not accurate. 3:02:53.320 --> 3:02:56.000 The lag is a lot more than twenty five percent. 3:02:56.560 --> 3:03:00.359 Oh boy, yeah, yeah. The DoD Office of the Inspector 3:03:00.440 --> 3:03:02.640 General went out to look into what's going on with 3:03:02.680 --> 3:03:05.560 this plant and why isn't shell production up to where 3:03:05.560 --> 3:03:08.000 the administration said it would be. They spent several months 3:03:08.040 --> 3:03:10.600 investigating and put together a report that was published in 3:03:10.680 --> 3:03:13.400 mid July of twenty twenty six. Here's a summary from 3:03:13.400 --> 3:03:16.760 TWZ dot com. Despite receiving close to five hundred million 3:03:16.840 --> 3:03:19.520 dollars from the US Army funded through supplemental spending bills 3:03:19.560 --> 3:03:21.560 from fiscal years twenty twenty two and twenty twenty three, 3:03:21.640 --> 3:03:24.600 General Dynamics, Ordnance and Tactical Systems failed to make a 3:03:24.680 --> 3:03:27.640 single subcomponent needed to produce the badly needed shells as 3:03:27.680 --> 3:03:30.880 of last March without the thirty thousand additional projectile metal 3:03:30.920 --> 3:03:33.560 parts anticipated from this skit facility, the Army will be 3:03:33.640 --> 3:03:36.120 unable to reach its monthly capacity goal of one hundred thousand, 3:03:36.120 --> 3:03:39.040 one hundred and fifty five millimeters artillery rounds. The report concluded, 3:03:39.280 --> 3:03:42.520 as of March twenty twenty six, officials have not developed 3:03:42.520 --> 3:03:44.600 a plan to produce the additional rounds that are supposed 3:03:44.600 --> 3:03:46.960 to be produced at the Mesquite factory. So this means 3:03:46.959 --> 3:03:49.160 that the US is produced and somewhere between like third 3:03:49.240 --> 3:03:51.680 and a half of the goal the Trump administration claimed 3:03:51.680 --> 3:03:53.800 they'd already reached. That's a little hard for me to tell. 3:03:54.160 --> 3:03:56.400 I've heard as low as like thirty six thousand and 3:03:56.440 --> 3:03:58.400 as high as like seventy thousand shells a month that 3:03:58.440 --> 3:04:00.600 we're making, both of which are shorter than were supposed 3:04:00.640 --> 3:04:02.720 to be. In for an idea of how much of 3:04:02.760 --> 3:04:05.680 a problem this is, Ukraine, when things are at a 3:04:05.720 --> 3:04:08.520 fever pitch, can fire up to eight thousand shells per day, 3:04:08.600 --> 3:04:10.760 which means they're shooting enough over there to account for 3:04:10.800 --> 3:04:13.520 a year of USHL production in two weeks. And as 3:04:13.560 --> 3:04:15.680 a result of this discrepancy, the US has seen at 3:04:15.680 --> 3:04:18.280 stockpile of one hundred and fifty five millimeters shells reduced 3:04:18.280 --> 3:04:21.480 by three point six million rounds over the last several years. 3:04:21.720 --> 3:04:24.400 Jesus so I was curious as to what had gone 3:04:24.440 --> 3:04:26.440 so wrong that these fuckers haven't been able to make 3:04:26.560 --> 3:04:31.560 a single solitary component, not fucking one. And it turns 3:04:31.600 --> 3:04:34.280 out this happened because the whole plot to have this 3:04:34.360 --> 3:04:38.200 Mesquite factory, you know, close the gap and production, was 3:04:38.240 --> 3:04:40.800 based on a hope and a prayer, specifically a hope 3:04:40.800 --> 3:04:43.560 that the very old machines in the factory would be 3:04:43.560 --> 3:04:47.520 able to produce modern quality weapons. The IG's report called 3:04:47.520 --> 3:04:50.080 this a high risk production line, which is not the 3:04:50.160 --> 3:04:52.879 kind of production line you want for artillery shells. Per 3:04:52.879 --> 3:04:55.840 an article and tasked purpose. Rather than build new machines 3:04:55.879 --> 3:04:58.080 for the Mesquite plant, the IG said, the Army allowed 3:04:58.120 --> 3:05:00.720 General Dynamics to convert machines U for M one oh 3:05:00.800 --> 3:05:03.200 seven shells, an older one hundred and fifty five millimeters 3:05:03.240 --> 3:05:05.160 round that the M seven ninety five, which we use 3:05:05.240 --> 3:05:07.840 now replaced the M seven ninety five can fire about 3:05:07.840 --> 3:05:10.320 six kilometers further than the M one oh seven, carrying 3:05:10.320 --> 3:05:13.160 a far more powerful explosive charge, But the decision to 3:05:13.160 --> 3:05:16.080 try it the untested production program, the IG said proved 3:05:16.080 --> 3:05:19.240 fateful Army officials believed the Mesquite facility was a high risk, 3:05:19.320 --> 3:05:22.840 high reward opportunity. The IG said the service accepted risk 3:05:22.920 --> 3:05:25.520 associated with the contractor's plan to purchase and adapt M 3:05:25.560 --> 3:05:28.320 one oh seven metal part production equipment, but the new 3:05:28.320 --> 3:05:31.720 production lines were never able to produce acceptable M seven 3:05:31.879 --> 3:05:34.560 ninety five parts using the reworked equipment, and the Army 3:05:34.640 --> 3:05:37.160 ordered the plant to stop work completely and stop spending 3:05:37.200 --> 3:05:39.960 money in August twenty twenty five, just months after the 3:05:40.000 --> 3:05:42.440 Trump administration claimed we were up two hundred thousand shells 3:05:42.480 --> 3:05:44.440 a month and that orders held through at least April 3:05:44.480 --> 3:05:47.760 of twenty twenty six. So we have no idea what's 3:05:47.800 --> 3:05:51.560 going to happen ultimately to this Mesquite factory. But I 3:05:51.600 --> 3:05:54.520 should note here that our munitions woes go even deeper 3:05:54.520 --> 3:05:57.840 than a lack of howitzer fuel. Earlier this year, Reuter's 3:05:57.840 --> 3:06:01.160 reporters Aaron Bonco, Mike Stone, and Nathan Lanley published an 3:06:01.200 --> 3:06:04.760 exclusive article titled US has used virtually all off its 3:06:04.800 --> 3:06:08.560 long range precision missiles during Iran Wars, sources say, citing 3:06:08.560 --> 3:06:10.920 three people familiar with the data, the article claims that 3:06:10.959 --> 3:06:13.720 the US has used virtually all of our army tactical 3:06:13.720 --> 3:06:17.279 missile systems and precision strike missiles. The army tactical missile 3:06:17.280 --> 3:06:19.400 systems are like the older missiles we were using. The 3:06:19.400 --> 3:06:21.720 precision strike missiles are the new ones. These are our 3:06:21.760 --> 3:06:24.920 main surface to surface weapons. And it gets worse to 3:06:24.920 --> 3:06:28.119 continue with another quote from that Reuter's piece. Military leaders 3:06:28.120 --> 3:06:30.879 have for weeks warned the president the stockpiles of defensive weapons, 3:06:30.920 --> 3:06:34.560 including Patriot interceptors, which are effective against ballistic missiles, we're dwindling, 3:06:34.600 --> 3:06:37.240 said two of the sources. Last week, several media outlets 3:06:37.280 --> 3:06:40.039 reported Trump had decided not to launch another massive offensive 3:06:40.080 --> 3:06:42.680 inside a Rod in part because his military advisors had 3:06:42.720 --> 3:06:46.480 warned about the US stockpile. A US official dispeeded those accounts, 3:06:46.520 --> 3:06:48.680 saying Trump's chose not to move forward with another attack 3:06:48.720 --> 3:06:52.400 because of pressure from Gulf states. Now, based on the 3:06:52.400 --> 3:06:54.920 most up to data info, we have at least sixty 3:06:54.959 --> 3:06:58.760 five percent of our Patriot interceptors have been used since February, 3:06:59.080 --> 3:07:01.760 and THAD stock piles are down by at least thirty 3:07:01.760 --> 3:07:04.760 eight percent. We've also used about half, if not more 3:07:04.760 --> 3:07:07.760 than half of our Tomahawk stockpile. None of these weapons 3:07:07.760 --> 3:07:09.920 can be replaced at rates that are even close to 3:07:09.959 --> 3:07:12.160 the rate we are burning them. And these are also 3:07:12.200 --> 3:07:14.200 the weapons systems that we would rely on most in 3:07:14.240 --> 3:07:16.400 the event of a conflict with Russia, China, or any 3:07:16.440 --> 3:07:19.000 other major power, which is why so many people in 3:07:19.000 --> 3:07:21.200 the defense industry are freaking out to the degree that 3:07:21.240 --> 3:07:22.959 Trump has had to pull back on some of his 3:07:23.040 --> 3:07:25.120 plans because they are telling him, hey, man, if we 3:07:25.120 --> 3:07:27.400 get into some serious shit and not this fuckery you're 3:07:27.400 --> 3:07:31.920 doing in the Gulf, we're screwed. We can't make more 3:07:31.959 --> 3:07:35.480 of these. So anyway, the reason I keep beating the 3:07:35.520 --> 3:07:38.959 drum onlike the AMMO shortage, is because I'm certain that 3:07:39.000 --> 3:07:41.200 in history books in the future there are going to 3:07:41.240 --> 3:07:44.560 be pages written about this before whatever fucking disaster comes 3:07:44.600 --> 3:07:47.920 our way next. So that's cool. Keep your eye on that. 3:07:47.959 --> 3:07:49.480 The other thing you should keep your eye on is 3:07:49.520 --> 3:07:52.640 that we have now added a new kind of gambling 3:07:52.680 --> 3:07:55.560 market to our gambling on things that are not traditional 3:07:55.600 --> 3:07:58.920 gambling industry, which is I guess, the only growth industry 3:07:58.959 --> 3:08:02.080 in the country aside from data centers. There's now a 3:08:02.080 --> 3:08:04.840 bunch of different services that are letting people gamble, specifically 3:08:04.920 --> 3:08:07.959 on wildfires and where they hit and how much damage 3:08:08.000 --> 3:08:12.120 they do. Oh Jesus, yeah, yeah, And I want to 3:08:12.200 --> 3:08:15.600 quote from an article in Oregon Live as Oregon surpassed 3:08:15.600 --> 3:08:17.680 its wildfire acreage record over the weekend, with more than 3:08:17.680 --> 3:08:20.520 two million acres burnt. Oregon lawmakers also raised a new 3:08:20.520 --> 3:08:23.400 wildfire concern Monday, as prediction markets continue to allow people 3:08:23.400 --> 3:08:25.640 to place bets on wildfires, saying it could lead to 3:08:25.680 --> 3:08:28.200 more human caused fires. In a letter to the Commodity 3:08:28.240 --> 3:08:31.560 Futures Trading Commission, which regulates prediction markets, Senator Jeff Merkley 3:08:31.640 --> 3:08:35.240 led lawmakers from other wildfire stricken states and Senator Ron 3:08:35.280 --> 3:08:38.280 Wyden in urging the agency to crack down on wildfire 3:08:38.320 --> 3:08:41.200 related contracts. The group warned that the markets could create 3:08:41.240 --> 3:08:44.520 financial incentives for arson. And that's the big deal, is that, Like, 3:08:44.520 --> 3:08:47.560 if you're letting people gamble on this shit, Yeah, firefighters 3:08:47.879 --> 3:08:50.960 might be incentivized to fuck with stuff. Regular people could 3:08:50.959 --> 3:08:54.440 be incentivized to fuck with stuff. We've seen this happen already. 3:08:54.840 --> 3:08:57.880 Like I reported a couple months ago about that Israeli 3:08:57.920 --> 3:09:01.039 journalists who like posted a video of a missile failing 3:09:01.080 --> 3:09:03.520 to get intercepted and like hitting into some trees and 3:09:03.520 --> 3:09:05.800 he started getting death threats because people were gambling on 3:09:05.920 --> 3:09:08.160 like how whether or not it would be intercepted, and 3:09:08.240 --> 3:09:11.040 his reporting was inconvenient to them. Shit's going to be 3:09:11.080 --> 3:09:13.119 happening like that with fires in addition to people trying 3:09:13.160 --> 3:09:15.240 to start them, if this is allowed to go right. 3:09:15.800 --> 3:09:18.959 Polymarket lets people bet on not just wildfires, but a 3:09:19.040 --> 3:09:22.680 variety of natural disasters. People can choose yes or no 3:09:22.840 --> 3:09:24.760 on as to whether or not they think a Category 3:09:24.800 --> 3:09:26.879 five hurricane is going to hit the United States, or 3:09:26.920 --> 3:09:30.240 like a volcano is going to erupt. It's just a 3:09:30.240 --> 3:09:33.000 really bleak thing. And there's one of the things that 3:09:33.040 --> 3:09:36.680 I read recently is there's even a new markets focused 3:09:36.680 --> 3:09:43.959 specifically on gambling on California wildfires called Wildfire wyldfyr. The 3:09:44.040 --> 3:09:47.720 company tagline is you can't predict wildfire, but you can 3:09:47.760 --> 3:09:51.080 trade on it, and I want to quote from High 3:09:51.080 --> 3:09:54.560 Country News and an investigation of this company. Currently, wildfire 3:09:54.680 --> 3:09:57.280 users can only simulate trading, but according to the site, 3:09:57.320 --> 3:09:59.360 the ability to bet with real money is coming soon. 3:09:59.680 --> 3:10:02.280 Go platform purports to be the first prediction market of 3:10:02.320 --> 3:10:04.760 its kind, price in county and city wildfire risk in 3:10:04.800 --> 3:10:07.920 real time. California burns every year and it's getting worse. 3:10:07.959 --> 3:10:10.040 The question is an if, it's when and where the 3:10:10.080 --> 3:10:13.600 site reads wildfire frames. Its platform is providing a public good. 3:10:13.760 --> 3:10:17.880 Wildfire turns collective intelligence into better wildfire forecasting, one trade 3:10:17.920 --> 3:10:20.640 at a time. The site reads, yeah, yeah, yeah, oh 3:10:20.720 --> 3:10:24.080 my god. But entities with the real need for wildfire forecasting, 3:10:24.080 --> 3:10:26.959 including federal and state firefighting agencies, say they aren't interested 3:10:27.000 --> 3:10:29.880 in prediction market data. The Forest Service does not use 3:10:29.879 --> 3:10:33.039 information from prediction markets for wildfire forecasts. It why they 3:10:33.040 --> 3:10:35.080 don't even need to go. It's useless, it's useless. And 3:10:35.120 --> 3:10:36.840 everyone's saying this is an idiot and a liar. 3:10:37.280 --> 3:10:40.039 It's insane. This this whole thing. It's like, we can 3:10:40.120 --> 3:10:42.800 chart like the world's collective knowledge. 3:10:42.400 --> 3:10:44.480 Because money, fucking morons. 3:10:44.040 --> 3:10:47.520 Money you know, speaks, speaks more truthfully than just words. 3:10:47.840 --> 3:10:49.440 Is just complete, complete nonsense. 3:10:49.520 --> 3:10:51.880 No, people are gonna burn down their own neighborhoods to 3:10:51.920 --> 3:10:52.400 get rich. 3:10:52.720 --> 3:10:53.199 Yeah. 3:10:53.280 --> 3:10:55.440 I mean, if you look at how much prediction markets 3:10:55.480 --> 3:10:57.800 have been wrong about a sequence of like high profile 3:10:57.840 --> 3:10:59.760 elections just in the past year, yeah, shows that this 3:10:59.800 --> 3:11:03.760 is not useful or reliable data. There's no you know, 3:11:03.879 --> 3:11:07.360 hidden truth that prediction markets can can can find through 3:11:07.440 --> 3:11:10.480 the the quote unquote wisdom of crowds and like this 3:11:10.480 --> 3:11:12.400 this specific thing on these wildfires is like a two 3:11:12.400 --> 3:11:16.160 pronged issue. One kind of evil right to just you know, 3:11:16.320 --> 3:11:19.640 win money based on the deaths of however many people 3:11:19.800 --> 3:11:21.640 in natural disasters. 3:11:21.120 --> 3:11:25.519 The destruction of other lives everything they've built, the fear. 3:11:25.280 --> 3:11:27.640 And so like, you know, like death markets is like 3:11:27.800 --> 3:11:30.680 one one aspect. The other you know aspect is if 3:11:30.879 --> 3:11:33.800 if someone has a lot of money riding on a 3:11:33.840 --> 3:11:37.880 certain wildfire hitting a certain location, then yeah, there is 3:11:37.920 --> 3:11:41.120 financial incentive to maybe cause a fire to hit a 3:11:41.120 --> 3:11:42.080 certain location. 3:11:42.000 --> 3:11:43.240 Or try to pay someone else to. 3:11:43.360 --> 3:11:45.160 Yeah, there's like that aspect as well. 3:11:45.800 --> 3:11:47.959 It's evil for so many reasons. 3:11:47.840 --> 3:11:50.360 Obviously should be illegal, Like it's insane. 3:11:50.200 --> 3:11:52.000 We should be hanging these people. 3:11:53.160 --> 3:11:58.120 I mean, uh I remember when arguing over whether the 3:11:58.200 --> 3:12:01.640 market is an information process that like like as you're saying, 3:12:01.680 --> 3:12:03.760 like haws, like all of this collective intelligence from market 3:12:03.800 --> 3:12:07.000 signals that it's like the most division information processor versus 3:12:07.120 --> 3:12:09.800 arguing that it's a gambling den Like that used to 3:12:09.800 --> 3:12:12.720 be an academic debate and now it's just like, oh no, 3:12:13.040 --> 3:12:16.320 we're doing this on fires and it's just God every 3:12:16.320 --> 3:12:18.760 every everything that was once metaphor is now literal, and 3:12:19.280 --> 3:12:20.440 all of the metaphors suck. 3:12:21.200 --> 3:12:23.000 Yeah, this is pretty fucked up. I I know that 3:12:23.080 --> 3:12:25.400 this was a this was a concern that was talked 3:12:25.400 --> 3:12:28.200 about with like the La fires yep last year or 3:12:28.240 --> 3:12:31.000 two years ago, because I know there was polymarket or 3:12:31.280 --> 3:12:33.880 caw she betting on those, and that created like a 3:12:33.879 --> 3:12:36.600 little mini news cycle of like talking about this maybe 3:12:36.640 --> 3:12:38.959 being a problem. But like the scale which this is 3:12:39.000 --> 3:12:40.320 like accelerated is crazy. 3:12:40.480 --> 3:12:43.360 Again. I used to do like sports gambling ads because 3:12:43.400 --> 3:12:45.680 I don't have a problem with gambling like ethically, the 3:12:45.760 --> 3:12:47.760 same way I don't have a problem with liquor and whatnot. 3:12:48.400 --> 3:12:51.280 And then it just became very clear before too much, 3:12:51.320 --> 3:12:54.120 Oh wait, no, this isn't your father's gambling. This isn't 3:12:54.160 --> 3:12:56.880 going to fucking like things are well beyond hit heading 3:12:56.879 --> 3:12:59.760 to Vegas for like a weekend or playing cards online 3:12:59.760 --> 3:13:03.120 with you your friends. This is turned into like everything 3:13:03.280 --> 3:13:06.920 like this is the omni culture. It's almost the only 3:13:07.040 --> 3:13:10.600 recreational activity a lot of Americans have anymore. Yeah, I'm 3:13:10.600 --> 3:13:14.160 gonna be honest, I didn't see that happening. That took 3:13:14.160 --> 3:13:14.920 me by surprise. 3:13:15.240 --> 3:13:16.840 No, I used to have a lot more kind of 3:13:16.879 --> 3:13:20.800 libertarian views on gambling, sure, and now I am firmly 3:13:20.879 --> 3:13:24.080 in favor of of like harsh state intervention. Yeah, into 3:13:24.200 --> 3:13:25.920 basically all forms of digital gambling. 3:13:25.959 --> 3:13:27.400 Yeah, I think you should be able to go to 3:13:27.440 --> 3:13:30.000 a casino and gamble, but I don't think you should 3:13:30.000 --> 3:13:33.120 be able to do it on your phone. Like I've 3:13:33.240 --> 3:13:34.280 turned around on that. 3:13:34.480 --> 3:13:34.600 No. 3:13:35.160 --> 3:13:36.840 Yeah, and you know, and you can you can look 3:13:36.840 --> 3:13:38.400 at those there's a whole bunch of data on like 3:13:38.480 --> 3:13:41.039 when when sports gambling is legalized in a state, like 3:13:41.080 --> 3:13:44.080 the bankruptcy rate increases, it's a catastrophe. 3:13:44.200 --> 3:13:44.720 Yeah, you know. 3:13:44.760 --> 3:13:47.000 I mean it's it's already devoured sports, and it's now 3:13:47.040 --> 3:13:50.840 just devouring everything that's left of our society until something changes. 3:13:50.640 --> 3:13:54.000 Literally everything else. Yeah, it's like what if you copy 3:13:54.120 --> 3:13:58.920 that model for literally any event happening in the world. Anyway, Well, 3:13:58.920 --> 3:14:01.280 at least the economy are just doing fine, right me? 3:14:02.240 --> 3:14:06.039 Oh oh boy. Yeah, So let's let's let's check in 3:14:06.560 --> 3:14:09.800 with our dear friend. And by dear friend, I mean 3:14:10.879 --> 3:14:12.920 I don't know if he's an enemy of the show yet, 3:14:13.080 --> 3:14:17.720 but recurring character on the show. Yeah, we're recurring character 3:14:17.840 --> 3:14:21.640 on the show. Federal Reserve Chairman Kevin Walsh, who had 3:14:21.680 --> 3:14:25.120 a press conference to address the fact that in the 3:14:25.160 --> 3:14:29.360 face of you know, rising inflation, everyone was expecting there 3:14:29.440 --> 3:14:31.640 to be some kind of interest rate increase and he 3:14:31.680 --> 3:14:34.320 didn't do one. And well, I mean that the Federal 3:14:34.360 --> 3:14:37.080 Reserve Board didn't vote for one, and he had a 3:14:37.080 --> 3:14:41.560 press conference that was so disastrous it triggered a giant 3:14:41.680 --> 3:14:44.519 sell off of US bonds, which. 3:14:44.400 --> 3:14:45.960 Is not good. 3:14:46.200 --> 3:14:48.800 I'm gonna read this piece from John Cassidy, who wrote 3:14:48.840 --> 3:14:50.640 an article in The New Yorker about it, because I 3:14:50.640 --> 3:14:55.920 think it captures the reactions to this quote. The selloff 3:14:56.000 --> 3:14:59.320 quote looks very much like a loss of confidence trade, 3:14:59.360 --> 3:15:02.720 one market at List told The Financial Times. Another commentor, 3:15:02.840 --> 3:15:06.680 Dario Perkins and economists at the Research from ts Lombard 3:15:06.760 --> 3:15:10.720 compared Worsh's press conference to Donald Trump's announcement last year 3:15:10.760 --> 3:15:14.560 of his Liberation Day tariffs and to the disastrous UK 3:15:14.800 --> 3:15:17.960 mini budget that costs Trust her job as Prime Minister 3:15:18.040 --> 3:15:22.640 in twenty twenty two, describing them all as occasions quote 3:15:22.800 --> 3:15:26.720 where you suddenly realize global policymakers are totally out of 3:15:26.760 --> 3:15:29.600 their depth and don't know what they're doing. Even some 3:15:29.800 --> 3:15:32.040 ex Fed officials, who tend to be more guarded in 3:15:32.080 --> 3:15:35.920 their public comments, voice concerns. In an interview with Bloomberg, 3:15:36.360 --> 3:15:39.640 James Bullard, a former president of the Federal Reserve Bank 3:15:39.640 --> 3:15:42.640 of Saint Louis, described Warsh's press conference as quote a 3:15:42.680 --> 3:15:46.320 little bit rocky, and the bond market's reaction as quote 3:15:46.320 --> 3:15:47.119 nerve racking. 3:15:47.160 --> 3:15:49.880 For a central painter, I don't know, it sounds fine 3:15:49.920 --> 3:15:50.120 to me. 3:15:50.520 --> 3:15:50.680 Now. 3:15:51.360 --> 3:15:53.800 A little bit rocky might seem a little timid to you, 3:15:54.320 --> 3:15:58.000 but for these people, that's like an insane thing to say. 3:15:58.240 --> 3:16:01.120 Yeah, for for a Federal Reserve banker, that is the 3:16:01.160 --> 3:16:04.119 equivalent of just nine alarm fire. 3:16:05.400 --> 3:16:06.480 Oh, I'm gonna. 3:16:06.240 --> 3:16:09.080 Read this one last fart of it. Loretta Mester, who 3:16:09.080 --> 3:16:12.120 headed the Cleveland FED from twenty fourteen to twenty twenty four, 3:16:12.240 --> 3:16:15.680 told the Wall Street Journal quote, I want to feel comfortable, 3:16:15.760 --> 3:16:18.440 but the FED knows what it is doing. I don't 3:16:18.480 --> 3:16:21.040 think it's sustainable what he's doing in terms of not 3:16:21.200 --> 3:16:27.200 saying anything. So that this press conference went so badly 3:16:27.440 --> 3:16:31.360 that the current analysis from basically the day has happened 3:16:31.400 --> 3:16:34.360 until now, the analysis has been that actually know the 3:16:34.360 --> 3:16:36.520 FED is going to be forced to raise interest rates. 3:16:36.920 --> 3:16:40.080 Just to make the markets take like Walsh as a 3:16:40.080 --> 3:16:44.160 guy running the central bank. Seriously, oh god, Economistic Bank 3:16:44.200 --> 3:16:49.720 of America labeled this a quote central bank inflation credibility shock, 3:16:50.200 --> 3:16:57.000 the term I have never seen before. So okay, what 3:16:57.040 --> 3:17:00.280 did Walsh actually say in this press conference that was 3:17:00.560 --> 3:17:04.640 this bad? Well, here here's Jackson baw at Fortune quote. 3:17:04.680 --> 3:17:09.039 He has vowed quote regime change and quote at the 3:17:09.080 --> 3:17:13.000 FED by rolling back so called forward guidance on where 3:17:13.080 --> 3:17:16.040 rates are headed and offered no such clues on Wednesday, 3:17:16.520 --> 3:17:20.120 even talking around no brain air questions on how to 3:17:20.160 --> 3:17:23.520 bring down inflation. So what does that actually mean? The 3:17:23.600 --> 3:17:26.960 Fed usually gives markets some indication of what they're going 3:17:27.040 --> 3:17:29.280 to do with interest rates at our next meeting the 3:17:29.320 --> 3:17:32.160 said interest rates, And you do this because you want 3:17:32.200 --> 3:17:35.240 to give people in the market an opportunity to plan 3:17:35.280 --> 3:17:37.320 around what the FED is probably going to be doing. 3:17:38.240 --> 3:17:42.440 Worsh thinks this is a bad idea, that is very weird. 3:17:42.920 --> 3:17:45.520 I don't think anyone has agreed with him that not 3:17:45.600 --> 3:17:48.680 talking to the markets about what you're about what the 3:17:48.680 --> 3:17:50.240 FED is going to do. I don't think anyone has 3:17:50.280 --> 3:17:52.840 agreed with him since at least like the eighties that 3:17:53.120 --> 3:17:55.200 the FED should just make his decisions in secret and 3:17:55.240 --> 3:17:58.039 not tell anyone. But that's not even the weirdest part 3:17:58.080 --> 3:18:00.520 of this. The weirdest part is a he's not just 3:18:00.560 --> 3:18:02.400 refusing to explain what the FED is going to do 3:18:02.440 --> 3:18:05.560 in the future. He is refusing to explain what the 3:18:05.600 --> 3:18:10.640 FED is doing right now, and that is really really weird. 3:18:10.879 --> 3:18:13.080 People just asked him point blank, like, hey, why did 3:18:13.120 --> 3:18:16.000 you not raise interest rates? And she just would not 3:18:16.000 --> 3:18:19.600 give an answer, and that is the thing that has 3:18:19.640 --> 3:18:21.840 been making it seem like she has no idea what's 3:18:21.879 --> 3:18:22.320 going on. 3:18:22.760 --> 3:18:23.040 Now. 3:18:23.400 --> 3:18:27.600 It's possible that this is pure incompetence. I think that's 3:18:27.640 --> 3:18:31.720 probably part of it. Like it being in competence is 3:18:31.959 --> 3:18:34.680 kind of bolstered by the fed's next move, which was 3:18:34.720 --> 3:18:38.720 to do basically a I don't know if bailout's quite 3:18:38.760 --> 3:18:40.720 the right term, but basically to pump a bunch of 3:18:40.760 --> 3:18:43.440 money into the end to maintain the value of or 3:18:43.480 --> 3:18:46.800 to increase and maintain the value of Japan's currency. Now, 3:18:46.920 --> 3:18:50.600 this is also a kind of cataclysmic thing. The US 3:18:50.640 --> 3:18:53.960 hasn't done this for Japan since I think literally it 3:18:54.000 --> 3:18:56.960 was the Reverse Plaza Accords in the late nineteen eighties, 3:18:57.040 --> 3:18:59.880 as a way to like stave off the just complete 3:19:00.080 --> 3:19:02.279 ruin of the Asian markets during the Asian market collapse. 3:19:02.760 --> 3:19:06.360 So this in and of itself is remarkable. The ZUS 3:19:06.360 --> 3:19:09.960 hasn't done this since almost every economy in Southeast Asia 3:19:10.000 --> 3:19:13.560 was imploding during the end of the nineties. But the 3:19:13.959 --> 3:19:16.520 weirdest part is that instead of doing this by just 3:19:16.760 --> 3:19:21.039 selling dollars, right, he did it by selling euros, which 3:19:21.080 --> 3:19:23.600 is baffling. I have no idea why he did it. 3:19:23.680 --> 3:19:26.200 No one I've read seems to have any idea why 3:19:26.200 --> 3:19:28.600 he did this with the euros instead of dollars. Everyone 3:19:28.680 --> 3:19:32.560 is just extremely confused. So it's actually very funny because 3:19:33.080 --> 3:19:35.640 the thing I'm about to talk about next was brought 3:19:35.760 --> 3:19:38.160 up as the most important thing the FED had done 3:19:38.200 --> 3:19:40.200 during his tenure, and then this happened a few days later. 3:19:41.040 --> 3:19:44.600 So everyone is just completely baffled by what he's doing. 3:19:44.680 --> 3:19:47.320 None of it makes any sense. And it's not only 3:19:47.320 --> 3:19:50.120 doesn't make any sense, it's actively undermining itself because a 3:19:50.120 --> 3:19:52.240 lot of the things that he's doing. You know, this 3:19:52.360 --> 3:19:56.240 yen purchase is supposed to be about restoring confidence in 3:19:56.520 --> 3:19:58.879 the Japanese markets, but then the US is doing some 3:19:58.920 --> 3:20:01.240 weird stuff, and now everyone's what on earth is going on? 3:20:02.040 --> 3:20:03.480 The last thing I want to talk about with the 3:20:03.480 --> 3:20:07.440 FED specifically is because I think I kind of understand 3:20:07.440 --> 3:20:10.200 what he's doing, at least with the interest rates and 3:20:10.240 --> 3:20:12.680 why he's not talking about it. In order to get 3:20:12.680 --> 3:20:14.880 to this, we need to turn to some reporting from 3:20:14.920 --> 3:20:18.520 the New York Times, which reports that Warsh is trying 3:20:18.560 --> 3:20:21.640 to reduce the number of meetings that the FED has 3:20:21.680 --> 3:20:24.480 to decide interest rates. This is also really weird. The 3:20:24.560 --> 3:20:27.080 number of meetings to decide indust rates hasn't changed since 3:20:27.080 --> 3:20:31.000 the eighties, So okay, why is he trying to eliminate? 3:20:32.040 --> 3:20:35.080 But as he's trying to eliminate these meetings, and when 3:20:35.120 --> 3:20:37.920 you put it all together, the reason why he doesn't 3:20:37.920 --> 3:20:39.320 want to say what the FED is going to do 3:20:39.360 --> 3:20:42.480 in the future and he wants to have less meetings 3:20:42.959 --> 3:20:45.280 is that there is a FED meeting in September, right 3:20:45.320 --> 3:20:48.600 before the midterms, and if he raises interest rates, which 3:20:48.640 --> 3:20:52.080 is exactly the opposite of what Donald Trump wants right 3:20:52.160 --> 3:20:55.600 before the midterms. And this is one of John Cassiy's interpretations. 3:20:55.959 --> 3:20:57.959 If he does this, he could get fired by Trump. 3:20:58.360 --> 3:21:00.959 So he doesn't want to raise interest ry before the midterms, 3:21:01.000 --> 3:21:05.720 so he's taking a stance of not saying anything to 3:21:05.760 --> 3:21:09.080 the media and then potentially even canceling this September meeting 3:21:09.520 --> 3:21:12.800 in order to not have to do this. So that's great. 3:21:12.959 --> 3:21:14.879 I think it's an argument as to whether the US 3:21:14.920 --> 3:21:17.600 Federal Reserve is the single most important institution for all 3:21:17.600 --> 3:21:20.440 of global capitalism. I don't know if you can win 3:21:20.480 --> 3:21:22.440 the argument that it's the single most important one, but 3:21:22.480 --> 3:21:24.840 it's one of the most important institutions, and it is 3:21:24.840 --> 3:21:28.080 apparently being run by a guy who is making economic 3:21:28.120 --> 3:21:31.199 decisions with the entire global economy based on him trying 3:21:31.240 --> 3:21:32.959 not to get fired, So. 3:21:33.440 --> 3:21:34.520 This can only go great. 3:21:34.879 --> 3:21:37.440 One of the silliest things about that that purchase of 3:21:37.520 --> 3:21:40.320 yen was the photos leaked from the meeting with the 3:21:40.360 --> 3:21:44.800 notepad they like, oh God, to do call in buy 3:21:45.000 --> 3:21:46.920 ten billion US dollars worth. 3:21:46.680 --> 3:21:49.600 Of yet remarkably similar to my shopping list the other 3:21:49.640 --> 3:21:50.680 day when I went to Alberton. 3:21:50.840 --> 3:21:53.760 That's what concerns me is I feel like you shouldn't 3:21:53.800 --> 3:21:57.680 be able to remember to buy ten billion yen ten 3:21:57.720 --> 3:21:59.800 billion US dollars worth of yen? 3:22:00.160 --> 3:22:02.600 Is there not a better method to make sure that happens? 3:22:02.640 --> 3:22:03.760 In the US government. 3:22:04.920 --> 3:22:08.080 I cannot emphasize this enough. The last time we did 3:22:08.120 --> 3:22:11.840 something like this with Japanese currency, it has an actual name. 3:22:11.920 --> 3:22:15.560 It's called the Reverse Plaza Accords. It was a transformational 3:22:15.640 --> 3:22:19.600 milestone moment in what the American economy was going to be, 3:22:19.600 --> 3:22:21.720 because that was the moment the US abandoned having a 3:22:21.720 --> 3:22:24.800 manufacturing economy. Like that's the kind of decision that is 3:22:24.840 --> 3:22:27.760 being made here, and it's being written on a notepad, 3:22:27.879 --> 3:22:28.720 Like it's just. 3:22:28.520 --> 3:22:30.879 Just just throw that thing on a notepad. I'll do 3:22:30.959 --> 3:22:32.039 that later this afternoon. 3:22:32.280 --> 3:22:35.240 I admit I thought worsh because Worsh had been like 3:22:35.360 --> 3:22:37.360 with with a Federal Reserve bank before, I thought he 3:22:37.440 --> 3:22:40.400 was going to be like slightly more confident than this. 3:22:40.720 --> 3:22:44.480 But this, this entire week, Hassed has raised what I 3:22:44.520 --> 3:22:47.480 think the odds are of the Federal Reserve completely screwing 3:22:47.520 --> 3:22:50.400 things up and blowing up the entire global economy significantly. 3:22:50.920 --> 3:22:53.760 Because if this is the kind of shit that you're doing, 3:22:54.360 --> 3:22:57.320 like a couple of months into being in office, we 3:22:57.360 --> 3:23:01.000 are in for a long eight years. Assuming I guess 3:23:01.040 --> 3:23:01.959 he doesn't like purge by. 3:23:01.920 --> 3:23:05.200 Trump posting a picture of Jerome Powell hurts like shit, 3:23:05.360 --> 3:23:06.080 just want him back. 3:23:07.520 --> 3:23:07.800 God. 3:23:10.280 --> 3:23:12.160 Uh uh. 3:23:12.240 --> 3:23:16.480 Finally, I want to conclude on some tariff talk song. 3:23:20.560 --> 3:23:26.400 Rocky jazz rockety jazz bot Sorry locking. 3:23:28.080 --> 3:23:31.360 Rocking jazz bo Rocky jazz Bob. 3:23:32.520 --> 3:23:34.720 Sorry, we forgot to put this song in that last episode. 3:23:34.800 --> 3:23:35.840 They won't forget bad. 3:23:36.000 --> 3:23:37.960 Yeah, We're we're fixing it. We're fixing it. 3:23:38.520 --> 3:23:40.520 On Monday, half of the states in the Union, that 3:23:40.640 --> 3:23:44.600 is twenty five total states sued the Trump administration over 3:23:44.640 --> 3:23:48.760 the regime's tariff policies. What is bleak here is that 3:23:49.000 --> 3:23:51.080 because of the speed that the courts move at and 3:23:51.120 --> 3:23:53.520 because of the speed that these attorney generals are moving at, 3:23:53.720 --> 3:23:56.480 these lawsuits are coming in an entire terror cycle behind. 3:23:56.720 --> 3:23:57.320 Yeah. 3:23:57.360 --> 3:24:00.960 So these lawsuits are over the administry Section three zero 3:24:01.000 --> 3:24:03.080 one teriffs, which were the forced labor ten to twelve 3:24:03.080 --> 3:24:06.600 percent tariffs on basically all US imports that are supposed 3:24:06.640 --> 3:24:10.360 to be about forced labor. And as as I mentioned before, 3:24:10.879 --> 3:24:13.920 this is an entire cycle of tariffs behind where the 3:24:13.920 --> 3:24:17.360 Trump administration actually is now, which is his even more 3:24:17.400 --> 3:24:21.360 illegal usage of smoot Holly tariffs against Canada. We are 3:24:21.520 --> 3:24:25.240 still awaiting the lawsuit about that one because they just 3:24:25.280 --> 3:24:28.600 haven't gotten there yet. So it's fun in real time 3:24:28.760 --> 3:24:31.039 to get to see the stuff. I said last time 3:24:31.040 --> 3:24:33.600 I was talking about tariffs, about how Trump is just 3:24:33.640 --> 3:24:35.720 going to be able to keep using the tariff justification 3:24:35.760 --> 3:24:37.440 because it just takes time for stuff to get to 3:24:37.480 --> 3:24:40.520 the court. Where we're seeing that here. I mean, I 3:24:40.560 --> 3:24:42.720 guess the Section three oh one tariffs don't have a deadline, 3:24:42.760 --> 3:24:44.400 but who knows how long it's going to take to 3:24:44.480 --> 3:24:47.480 get rid of those ones, or if you could see 3:24:47.480 --> 3:24:51.119 a scenario where those tariffs are irrelevant, as we saw 3:24:51.200 --> 3:24:54.039 with the tariffs that he imposed earlier this year that 3:24:54.120 --> 3:24:56.600 were nominally about like the US having a balance of 3:24:56.640 --> 3:24:59.120 payments crisis, where there were lawsuits about it, but the 3:24:59.200 --> 3:25:03.240 lawsuits don't matter because the authorization expired. Were probably we're 3:25:03.240 --> 3:25:05.600 gonna see a similar thing like that where these terrorists 3:25:05.640 --> 3:25:07.400 are kind of irrelevant by the time. This way, so 3:25:07.520 --> 3:25:10.360 the courts so amazing political system we've set up. 3:25:10.320 --> 3:25:13.160 Here, Well, that does it for us today at it 3:25:13.200 --> 3:25:17.160 could happen here. James sent over two donation links for 3:25:17.400 --> 3:25:20.959 the Spokane wildfires. Both should be at the top of 3:25:21.000 --> 3:25:24.640 the episode sources in the description. The first one is 3:25:24.840 --> 3:25:30.120 Spokanetribalnetwork dot org. The second link is too long to 3:25:30.320 --> 3:25:34.600 fully read, but it's for the Spokane Complex Wildfire Response Fund. 3:25:35.120 --> 3:25:37.400 I can't read out the whole URL, but it should 3:25:37.440 --> 3:25:40.080 be at the top of the sources in the description. 3:25:40.760 --> 3:25:42.640 We the news reported, we. 3:25:42.520 --> 3:25:43.320 Reported the news. 3:25:45.440 --> 3:25:53.480 We reported the news. Hey, We'll be back Monday with 3:25:53.680 --> 3:25:56.480 more episodes every week from now until the heat death 3:25:56.520 --> 3:25:57.160 of the universe. 3:25:57.920 --> 3:26:00.440 It could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 3:26:00.600 --> 3:26:03.600 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 3:26:03.720 --> 3:26:07.320 coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 3:26:07.360 --> 3:26:10.959 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 3:26:11.000 --> 3:26:13.320 now find sources where it could Happen here listed directly 3:26:13.360 --> 3:26:14.480 in episode descriptions. 3:26:14.800 --> 3:26:15.640 Thanks for listening.