WEBVTT - Wikipedia Founder Jimmy Wales Talks New Book

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. Jimmy Wales is founder

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<v Speaker 1>of Wikipedia. He has a new book out, The Seven

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<v Speaker 1>Rules of Trust, a blueprint for building things that last.

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<v Speaker 1>That book out tomorrow and lucky for us, he joins

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<v Speaker 1>us right here in studio. Welcome, Welcome, Nice to have

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<v Speaker 1>you here with us.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, thanks for having me. It's like a spaceship.

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<v Speaker 1>Some call it the fishball. We call it home. This

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<v Speaker 1>book about trust. When did you start writing it.

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<v Speaker 2>It was a couple of years ago. I had had

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<v Speaker 2>some ideas around this, and yeah, just just started. And

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<v Speaker 2>it's obviously turned out to be quite timely as we

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<v Speaker 2>have a lot of issues around trust in society, and

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I want to encourage people to let's get

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<v Speaker 2>back to society of trust.

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<v Speaker 1>You know.

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<v Speaker 3>It's funny, Carolyn, I spent a lot of time talking

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<v Speaker 3>about this ahead of the interview because Wikipedia sort of

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<v Speaker 3>seems and look, it's had its challenges, question, it's had

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<v Speaker 3>its controversies. But for things that are online, m it's

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<v Speaker 3>kind of as weird utopia in.

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<v Speaker 1>The sense that it's kind of remarkable.

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<v Speaker 3>It's really remarkable. I mean, we know anonymous people online

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<v Speaker 3>are oftentimes are full of vitriol and hate. We can

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<v Speaker 3>see that even when people use their names on social

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<v Speaker 3>media platforms. We lock our doors when we leave the house.

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<v Speaker 3>Why does trust work on Wikipedia? But kind of seems

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<v Speaker 3>like nowhere else right now?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, I think for me, you know, one

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<v Speaker 2>of the seven rules of trust that is most meaningful

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<v Speaker 2>in that regard is purpose. Like Wikipedia has a very

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<v Speaker 2>simple purpose, which is to build an encyclopedia, and we

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<v Speaker 2>make all our decisions around that and the rules about

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<v Speaker 2>participation and so forth. And that's very different from social media,

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<v Speaker 2>where there isn't a clear purpose other than free speech

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<v Speaker 2>and openness, and therefore that toxicity really creeps in quite

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<v Speaker 2>a lot in social media. You know, people say outrageous

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<v Speaker 2>things because they get real for it. They get more followers,

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<v Speaker 2>they get more engagement, and they algorithms love that.

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<v Speaker 1>You talk about clickbait all the time, clickbait.

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<v Speaker 2>All the time, And you know, that's very different from

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<v Speaker 2>the world of Wikipedia, where I mean, thank goodness, our

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<v Speaker 2>headlines are so boring. There's no clickbait. You know. It's

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<v Speaker 2>like the erical on Thomas Jefferson's called Thomas Jefferson, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>but it does what it says on the ten. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>that's a that's a very British expression, afraid, but but yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean I do think that that having a simple

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<v Speaker 2>purpose is a part of what keeps us focused and

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<v Speaker 2>keeps our community focused.

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<v Speaker 1>How do you describe facts? How do you determine facts?

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<v Speaker 1>And I am amazed in I mean, I've been doing

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<v Speaker 1>this a few years and I felt like when I

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<v Speaker 1>started it was very clear fact versus ficion in terms

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<v Speaker 1>of reporting and doing stories, and I feel like there's

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of gray area and I just feel like

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<v Speaker 1>a fact is a fact. So how you guys determine

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<v Speaker 1>what's a fact in an entry?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah? I mean we're really old fashioned, like what we

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<v Speaker 2>look for our reliable sources. So we want you know,

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<v Speaker 2>sort of academic research or quality newspapers, quality magazines, quality books.

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<v Speaker 2>Really old fashioned and you know, uh, the the idea

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<v Speaker 2>that we should treat you know, the New England Journal

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<v Speaker 2>of Medicine as the same as social media influence our

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<v Speaker 2>line is obviously just wrong. Like you, you really want facts,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's what people want from Wikipedia.

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<v Speaker 1>They don't want sources matter.

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<v Speaker 2>Sources really matter, Like having a good quality source is

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<v Speaker 2>what it's all about.

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<v Speaker 1>But why don't sources matter to everybody, and other people

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<v Speaker 1>will say, Okay, I believe this source is reliable, so like,

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<v Speaker 1>you know what I mean, Like we're living in like

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<v Speaker 1>different worlds.

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<v Speaker 2>I think, I think, and I think that's a huge problem.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I do think, you know, it's really important.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean one of the problems that we've seen is

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<v Speaker 2>that a lot of the media, in response to the

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<v Speaker 2>changing and very difficult financial model for journalism, they've chased

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<v Speaker 2>after really partisan audiences and so you know, sometimes you

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<v Speaker 2>read something and you're like, yeah, that was interesting, that

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<v Speaker 2>was good, but I'm not sure I got both sides

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<v Speaker 2>of the story there. I live in the UK and

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<v Speaker 2>we have a just an example, two quality newspapers, the

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<v Speaker 2>Guardian and the Telegraph, left leaning, right leaning. They're both

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<v Speaker 2>great newspapers. But I often read one and I'm like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>but and then I go read the other and I'm like, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>you probably should have been somewhere in the middle both

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<v Speaker 2>of you, and it would have been I think a

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<v Speaker 2>better story had you said, well, you know, we got

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<v Speaker 2>one side of the story, but we actually had to

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<v Speaker 2>go out and find somebody to tell us a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit about the other side, you know. You can't be

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<v Speaker 2>too like the moon is made of rocks or is

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<v Speaker 2>it cheese? Who knows. I don't mean that seriously hopefully geez,

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<v Speaker 2>but you know, like seriously thinking about like who are

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<v Speaker 2>we talking to and we are we getting to the

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<v Speaker 2>bottom of this.

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<v Speaker 3>With media, With trust in media here in the United

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<v Speaker 3>States declining and having declined over the last few years,

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<v Speaker 3>in your view, is there something that we can do

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<v Speaker 3>better the media can do better that it can borrow

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<v Speaker 3>from what has worked at Wikipedia, what has worked with

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<v Speaker 3>the trust, the methods of trust that you've studied, that

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<v Speaker 3>can make us build trust again with our audiences.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I mean, well, the good news is that the

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<v Speaker 2>financial press, like Bloomberg is still among the most trusted

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<v Speaker 2>h And I think that's because by the mandate of

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<v Speaker 2>what you're trying to do informing business people and investors,

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<v Speaker 2>you kind of have to be like ruthlessly objective. You're

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<v Speaker 2>not chasing after partisan audiences and things like that.

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<v Speaker 1>But I do think that's up data.

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<v Speaker 2>Big data. Data is important transparency, I think, you know, realistically,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, one of the things that Wikipedia does that's

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<v Speaker 2>kind of odd is we'll have a you know, at

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<v Speaker 2>the top of a page the neutrality of this article

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<v Speaker 2>has been disputed, and I we've all seen it. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>we've all seen it. And I always say, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I kind of wish sometimes the New York Times would

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<v Speaker 2>put a banner up just saying, you know, we had

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<v Speaker 2>a big fight in the news room. We weren't quite sure,

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<v Speaker 2>so like but yeah, yeah, but here's a little bit

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<v Speaker 2>of their inside thinking, like we did want to report this,

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<v Speaker 2>We're not sure we've got the full story yet, because

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<v Speaker 2>that pretending to be perfection all the time. People see

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<v Speaker 2>through that, and they know, of course, and I think

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<v Speaker 2>they're willing to say, yeah, like, actually journalism is quite hard,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, so a little more transparency is always good.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you get pressure a lot from companies, politicians, individuals

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<v Speaker 1>to like change an entry?

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<v Speaker 2>No, not really. I mean people, you know, I meet

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of people, and people often are like, well,

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<v Speaker 2>you know my Wikipedia entry, what about this? What about that?

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<v Speaker 2>I much like, yeah, send us an email, like you know,

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<v Speaker 2>we'll have somebody look at that. That's all fine in general.

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<v Speaker 3>Note and actually we're very but you really just say,

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<v Speaker 3>just send them in an email and I'm not going

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<v Speaker 3>to do anything about it.

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<v Speaker 2>Kind of yeah, okay, But no. Sometimes people have a

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<v Speaker 2>legitimate point. They're like, oh, well, you know I did

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<v Speaker 2>this thing and it was in the press, and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it's like, okay, well maybe we just overlooked it, and

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<v Speaker 2>that's that's great. But you know, at a deeper level,

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<v Speaker 2>one of the things that's really important is, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>we aren't funded by governments. We aren't funded by sort

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<v Speaker 2>of the major donors. We're funded by people giving their

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<v Speaker 2>twenty dollars and that makes a big difference for our

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<v Speaker 2>intellectual independence. We're not worried like if we've got something

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<v Speaker 2>negative about whatever, then we might lose our donation.

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<v Speaker 3>How is how is the fundraising going? Because I feel

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<v Speaker 3>like I've gotten a lot of messages from you throughout

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<v Speaker 3>the years. Throughout the year, from Jimmy Wills on Wikipedia,

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<v Speaker 3>We've all seen it.

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<v Speaker 1>Is it going okay?

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<v Speaker 3>Is funding going okay?

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<v Speaker 2>It's okay. Yeah, we've we've been uh, you know, we're stable,

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<v Speaker 2>We're very cautious with money, so we always try to

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<v Speaker 2>build our reserves and so on. And then you know, recently,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know, Elon tweeted defund Wikipedia. I think we

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<v Speaker 2>were about five million dollars that day. So you can

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<v Speaker 2>text melon I know you guys have been in touch.

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<v Speaker 2>You can text them and say tweet about us again.

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<v Speaker 3>It's to the end of the year.

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<v Speaker 1>Well you have some cos there raise money