WEBVTT - Invention Playlist 4: Guillotine

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, welcome to Invention. I'm Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick.

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<v Speaker 1>And you might know Robert and I from our other

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<v Speaker 1>show Stuff to Blow your Mind, our other show in

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<v Speaker 1>the house, Stuff Works Network. But today you apparently have

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<v Speaker 1>somehow wandered into our brand new Curiosity Store of Inventions,

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<v Speaker 1>where we explore human ingenuity for good, for ill all

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<v Speaker 1>of the stuff that comes out of our imaginations and

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<v Speaker 1>becomes the technology we use every day or maybe just

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<v Speaker 1>read about in history books. Yes, the hallowed halls of technological, systematic,

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<v Speaker 1>and cultural invention, the very human machines, customs, and systems

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<v Speaker 1>that altered the course of history. And today we're talking

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<v Speaker 1>about one of the most useful inventions of all time.

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<v Speaker 1>It's got to be the And Robert, before I say it,

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<v Speaker 1>do you say it like a French guy's name, or

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<v Speaker 1>like what a fish breathes with? I go with guillotine

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<v Speaker 1>because it sounds a little more like an open face

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<v Speaker 1>sandwich that way, and also it has the the G

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<v Speaker 1>has more of a sound to it. Yeah, I like

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<v Speaker 1>how it sounds kind of like the minotar the guillotine.

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<v Speaker 1>But but apparently guillotine in English is also somewhat acceptable pronunciation.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't think there's a firm ruling one way or

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<v Speaker 1>another from the lords of English pronunciation. Now, one thing

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<v Speaker 1>is for certain as we we venture into this world

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<v Speaker 1>of the guillotine. Beheadings themselves are just a time honored

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<v Speaker 1>way for one human being to kill another. It's a

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<v Speaker 1>wound that still can't be repaired, and it is without

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<v Speaker 1>question certain death. Now, one thing I was thinking about

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<v Speaker 1>to illustrate this is what would you even say is

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<v Speaker 1>the quote cause of death in a beheading so well,

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<v Speaker 1>blood loss, loss of oxygen to the brain. Basically, it

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<v Speaker 1>just cuts off. It cuts off your all your plumbing

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<v Speaker 1>systems from all of your your your your thinking systems. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>it makes it makes you think about how often when

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<v Speaker 1>you hear phrases like clinically dead that can refer to

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<v Speaker 1>something about circulation, like this sation of the heartbeat. Um.

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<v Speaker 1>But yeah, so when you separate the head from the body,

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<v Speaker 1>I guess you've got to be really rigorous about what

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<v Speaker 1>you mean by dead, though I guess it also happens

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<v Speaker 1>pretty quickly so you don't have to worry about it

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<v Speaker 1>too much. But yeah, all the blood comes out of

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<v Speaker 1>the head immediate loss of blood pressure, which means the

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<v Speaker 1>brain can't get oxygen, which means the brain can't work. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's something that's just cemented in our mythology as well, right,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, you want to kill a vampire, you wanna

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<v Speaker 1>kill a medusa, you want to kill a highlander, what

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<v Speaker 1>do you do? You cut their head off? There is

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<v Speaker 1>something just supernaturally potent about this form of death. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>I think that's absolutely true, and you see that in

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of archaeological finds of beheadings from human history. Like,

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<v Speaker 1>here's a kind of strange fact. A lot of times

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<v Speaker 1>when you find beheaded humans from ages past, there appears

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<v Speaker 1>to be evidence that the people were beheaded posthumously. Why

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<v Speaker 1>did that happen? There are a lot of ways you

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<v Speaker 1>could explain it. I mean that you would take a

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<v Speaker 1>dead person and cut off their head. Maybe there's some

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<v Speaker 1>sort of ritual function going on here, might be human sacrifice.

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<v Speaker 1>Maybe there's some kind of symbolic form of justice being done,

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<v Speaker 1>if it's the corps of a criminal or an enemy

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<v Speaker 1>or something. But a lot of times it appears like

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<v Speaker 1>it might be a form of apotropaic magic, the kind

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<v Speaker 1>of magic you would use to ward off evil or

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<v Speaker 1>bad spirits in the same way that you might find

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<v Speaker 1>a skeleton from hundreds of years ago with an iron

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<v Speaker 1>rod driven through its hard or with a brick in

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<v Speaker 1>its mouth, and say the tombs underneath Venice. Yeah, there's

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<v Speaker 1>like a dismantling of the the individual that that seems

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<v Speaker 1>evident in these acts um you know, and we see

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<v Speaker 1>acts of ritual decapitation dating back thousands of years. For instance,

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<v Speaker 1>there's evidence in Brazil that dates back to at least

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<v Speaker 1>nine thousand BC, and it's uh. In it we find

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<v Speaker 1>a human skull draped and amputated, hands palm side down,

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<v Speaker 1>covering the face as if as if in grief. That's

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<v Speaker 1>from place called Lapa Dosanto in uh in South America

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<v Speaker 1>and Brazil, and a lot of bones have been discovered there.

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<v Speaker 1>And it's not always easy to determine how to read

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<v Speaker 1>the intention behind what you see in these people, but that, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>there were all kinds of forms of of apparently posthumous

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<v Speaker 1>mutilation going on in the way these bones are arranged.

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<v Speaker 1>For example, sometimes you'll find skulls they're full of finger

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<v Speaker 1>bones inside the skulls. What was going on? What made

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<v Speaker 1>the people want to do that? It seems like it

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<v Speaker 1>may well have formed some kind of magical intention, but

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<v Speaker 1>what was it? Indeed, we can only guess now. Another

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<v Speaker 1>kind of significance that beheading has often had in the

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<v Speaker 1>ancient world was that it was one of the many

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<v Speaker 1>forms of execution practiced, of course in ancient Greece and Rome. Uh.

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<v Speaker 1>And in fact, our terms decapitation and capital punishment both

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<v Speaker 1>come from the Latin from capit meaning head, so like

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<v Speaker 1>capital punishment is punishment of the head, or that you

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<v Speaker 1>you pay, you pay for a crime with your head

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<v Speaker 1>by separating it from the other stuff. Uh. And there's

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<v Speaker 1>some evidence that the ancient Greeks and Romans viewed beheading

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<v Speaker 1>is not a particularly harsh punishment, but more as a

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<v Speaker 1>particularly noble and honorable form of execution. And you see

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<v Speaker 1>strains of this thinking carried into much more recent times,

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<v Speaker 1>like when beheading was deployed as an execution method throughout

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<v Speaker 1>the history of England. Not always, but it was most

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<v Speaker 1>often reserved for the aristocracy, while common criminals might more

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<v Speaker 1>often be killed in what was considered a less dignified

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<v Speaker 1>way like hanging. Yeah, I mean, obviously, beheadings in general

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<v Speaker 1>have probably been occurring as long as we've had weapons

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<v Speaker 1>fine enough to inflict the blow. Uh, you know, as

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<v Speaker 1>long as we had, you know, something that could knock

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<v Speaker 1>or cut a head off. And then when you start

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<v Speaker 1>looking at these, uh, the the use of the of

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<v Speaker 1>of a sword or an axe and execution, A lot

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<v Speaker 1>of it comes down to the craftsmanship of that weapon,

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<v Speaker 1>but also the skill of the individual using it. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>that's that's a real kicker, isn't it. I Mean, when

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<v Speaker 1>you contract somebody to do a job for you, a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of times if you don't have a previous relationship

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<v Speaker 1>with them, you know, you don't know what kind of

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<v Speaker 1>work they're gonna do. You want to find those people

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<v Speaker 1>you can trust, but it's hard to find a trustworthy

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<v Speaker 1>executioner that you know is going to cut your head

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<v Speaker 1>off right right, Like i' you really gotta put yourself

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<v Speaker 1>in the in the shoes of the condemned here right. Uh.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, obviously you don't want to be stoned to death.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, you don't want to be thrown into that

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<v Speaker 1>burlap sack with two wild animals and thrown into the river.

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<v Speaker 1>You would probably prefer a nice clean beheading, but nobody

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<v Speaker 1>wants a less than perfect beheading. If the local warlord

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<v Speaker 1>is doing it, you know, that's one thing. Uh, you know, unless, however,

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<v Speaker 1>you're worried about the war lord inflicting an intentionally less

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<v Speaker 1>than perfect stroke, you know, out of personal malice. If

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<v Speaker 1>if it's a professional executioner that's doing the honors, well

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<v Speaker 1>that's either really good or really bad, depending on how

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<v Speaker 1>you look at it. Like the idea of a trained

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<v Speaker 1>specialist doing the deed, that sounds good. But on the

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<v Speaker 1>other hand, at death via the sort of person who

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<v Speaker 1>either seeks this line of work out or is not

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<v Speaker 1>suited for any other form of labor, that's a little

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<v Speaker 1>uh frightening, I would say. Plus, do you really want

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<v Speaker 1>to be toward the bottom of an executioner's list for

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<v Speaker 1>the day after they're tired from swinging that big old axe,

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<v Speaker 1>like it's your turn on Friday afternoon? Yeah, like you

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<v Speaker 1>kind of I want to be up there. I would

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<v Speaker 1>want to be up there first. Let me get that

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<v Speaker 1>that first blow in on me. I must admit, I

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<v Speaker 1>don't think I had ever much considered the horrors of

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<v Speaker 1>a weak strike from the executioner until Game of Thrones

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<v Speaker 1>came around, and then that I suddenly began to think,

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<v Speaker 1>like oh yes, this could go very wrong. But George rr.

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<v Speaker 1>Martin did not make up this concept obviously, of of

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<v Speaker 1>being weak at swinging the executioner sword or the axe.

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<v Speaker 1>History is replete with stories of botch to be headings,

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<v Speaker 1>and they are horrific and unfortunately sometimes kind of funny.

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<v Speaker 1>I want to tell you a couple. Uh, this one's

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<v Speaker 1>not so funny. And this concerns Mary, the Queen of Scots.

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<v Speaker 1>So during the reign of Protestant Queen Elizabeth the First

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<v Speaker 1>of England in the sixteenth century, there was obviously a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of anxiety about succession because Elizabeth had been born

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<v Speaker 1>to King Henry the Eighth and his second wife Anne

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<v Speaker 1>Boleyn after Henry's first marriage to Catherine e Verragon had

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<v Speaker 1>been annulled, and obviously lots of people at the time,

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<v Speaker 1>especially some Catholics, had opinions about that right. And Elizabeth's

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<v Speaker 1>cousin Mary Stewart was born to James the Fifth of Scotland,

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<v Speaker 1>who was descended from a legitimate royal line, and so

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<v Speaker 1>many Catholic supporters thought, well, maybe Mary actually has a

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<v Speaker 1>more legitimate claim to the throne than Elizabeth does, and

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<v Speaker 1>so Mary was eventually implicated in an assassination plot against

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<v Speaker 1>Elizabeth in fifteen eighty six, at least she was allegedly

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<v Speaker 1>involved in it, and she was sentenced to execution in

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<v Speaker 1>fifty seven. So you've got Mary Stewart, Mary Queen of Scott's,

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<v Speaker 1>going to her execution and the story goes that she's

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<v Speaker 1>blindfolded and she gets helped to the block and the executioner,

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<v Speaker 1>wearing all black, raises up his axe to kill her,

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<v Speaker 1>but instead of cutting through her neck, he misses and

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<v Speaker 1>he hits her on the head head and then some

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<v Speaker 1>report that she murmurs Sweet Jesus in shock before the

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<v Speaker 1>executioner raises his acts a second time and then strikes

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<v Speaker 1>again and still fails to cut her head off completely.

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<v Speaker 1>And finally he quote just sawed through what remained of

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<v Speaker 1>her neck. That's that's that's rough for Mary. Yeah, and

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<v Speaker 1>this is you know, this is presumed main event beheading here.

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<v Speaker 1>So right, this is before a royal audience, right, so

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<v Speaker 1>this would have to be either an act of just

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<v Speaker 1>just just an utterly inept executioner or one that is

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<v Speaker 1>intentionally doing a bad job out of mouth. It's like

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<v Speaker 1>there seems to be very little room in between. It's

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<v Speaker 1>hard to understand what happened here, because you know, we

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<v Speaker 1>only have accounts from the time, which may not even

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<v Speaker 1>be fully reliable. We're relying on what people told us

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<v Speaker 1>they saw there, right, and there could be some objective

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<v Speaker 1>in crafting a version of the tale that sounds more

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<v Speaker 1>inapt than it actually was. But it actually gets worse

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<v Speaker 1>because apparently so. It's described sometimes that the executioner appeared

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<v Speaker 1>horrified at what was going on, but the head's my

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<v Speaker 1>After he got her head off, he took hold of

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<v Speaker 1>the severed head and he held it up in front

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<v Speaker 1>of the crowd so he could hold up the severed

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<v Speaker 1>head and say, God save Queen Elizabeth. But he grasped

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<v Speaker 1>Mary's head by the hair, and it turned out the

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<v Speaker 1>hair was a wig, so the head fell down and

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<v Speaker 1>rolled away, leaving him holding only a hacked up, bloody

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<v Speaker 1>wig while proclaiming his true queen. And then another part

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<v Speaker 1>of the story, maybe maybe not to be believed, is

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<v Speaker 1>that after Mary's head rolled away, her lips kept moving

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<v Speaker 1>as if she was talking or praying. Okay, some of

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<v Speaker 1>that sounds like it might have been embellished, but it

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<v Speaker 1>also sounds like this guy was a real hack no

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<v Speaker 1>pun intended. Well, I got an even worse hack for you,

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<v Speaker 1>because there was a seventeenth century English executioner named Jack

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<v Speaker 1>Catch Catch spelled like catch up, catch yeah, or like

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<v Speaker 1>what's the kid in the Pokemon's. I have no idea.

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<v Speaker 1>Our very knowledgeable producer Paul just tells me it is

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<v Speaker 1>Ash catch him, Okay, I guess he's got to catch him,

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<v Speaker 1>all right. It's like Jack Ketch him right, the hard writer.

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<v Speaker 1>That's what comes to my mind. I don't well anyway,

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<v Speaker 1>this is Jack Ketch K E T C H so

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<v Speaker 1>Jack Ketch birthday unknown died in sixteen eighty six, who

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<v Speaker 1>was notorious for being a complete screw up at his

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<v Speaker 1>job and bungling executions. A couple of examples. In sixteen

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<v Speaker 1>eighty three, Ketch performed the beheading of William Lord Russell,

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<v Speaker 1>who was convicted for treason in his role of in

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<v Speaker 1>his role in the Rye House plot, which was against

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<v Speaker 1>King Charles the Second of England, and Catches beheading of

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<v Speaker 1>Russell was reportedly just this clumsy horror, with Catch whacking

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<v Speaker 1>Russell again and again with the axe, but repeatedly failing

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<v Speaker 1>to get his head off, and apparently after this Catch

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<v Speaker 1>defended himself by complaining that Russell wouldn't hold still, And

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<v Speaker 1>then you got the second one. Later, James, Duke of Monmouth,

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<v Speaker 1>he went to the block for the Monmouth Rebellion of

0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:54.679
<v Speaker 1>sixteen eighty five, and he tried to pay Catch not

0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:58.640
<v Speaker 1>to screw up his execution. He's recorded as saying, quote,

0:11:58.960 --> 0:12:02.200
<v Speaker 1>here are six guinea for you. Pray, do your business well.

0:12:02.320 --> 0:12:04.800
<v Speaker 1>Do not serve me as you did my lord Russell.

0:12:05.240 --> 0:12:07.680
<v Speaker 1>I have heard you struck him three or four times.

0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:11.000
<v Speaker 1>Then Monmouth gave three more guineas to his servant who

0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:14.080
<v Speaker 1>was standing nearby, and told his servant to pay Catch

0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:18.439
<v Speaker 1>only if Ketch did the beheading correctly, and then Catch

0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:22.360
<v Speaker 1>said I hope I shall. Then Monmouth asked to feel

0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:24.920
<v Speaker 1>the axe blade, and he did, and he complained that

0:12:25.320 --> 0:12:28.640
<v Speaker 1>this is too dull, and Ketch said, no, it's sharp enough,

0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:31.920
<v Speaker 1>it'll be heavy enough. So Monmouth got down in place

0:12:31.960 --> 0:12:35.439
<v Speaker 1>to accept his fate, and Catch brought the axe down

0:12:35.520 --> 0:12:38.520
<v Speaker 1>on Monmouth. And at this point it is reported that

0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:41.440
<v Speaker 1>after he got hit, Monmouth lifted his head up and

0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:46.680
<v Speaker 1>turned around and glared at Ketch angrily. Then he got

0:12:46.720 --> 0:12:49.480
<v Speaker 1>back down so Ketch could hit him again, and Catch

0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:52.200
<v Speaker 1>hit him several more times, failing each time to be

0:12:52.280 --> 0:12:55.320
<v Speaker 1>head him. Then Catch got frustrated and tried to walk

0:12:55.360 --> 0:12:57.800
<v Speaker 1>away and quit in the middle of the execution while

0:12:57.840 --> 0:13:00.600
<v Speaker 1>Monmouth was still alive. But the crowd out yelled at

0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:02.400
<v Speaker 1>him and told him to go back and finish it.

0:13:02.640 --> 0:13:05.640
<v Speaker 1>So finally he went back. After some more blows uh

0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:07.920
<v Speaker 1>and the use of a knife, he finally managed to

0:13:07.960 --> 0:13:11.040
<v Speaker 1>get the duke's head off. Well that's awful, Like, this

0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:13.480
<v Speaker 1>guy is a true hack. I wonder if that's where

0:13:13.520 --> 0:13:16.760
<v Speaker 1>the word hack comes from. Perhaps, Uh yeah, but so

0:13:16.840 --> 0:13:20.320
<v Speaker 1>you had people whose job it was to administer what

0:13:20.480 --> 0:13:22.680
<v Speaker 1>I guess was supposed to be the more humane form

0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:24.720
<v Speaker 1>of execution at the time. I mean, this is different

0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:28.480
<v Speaker 1>than being you know, uh, tortured and hanged and drawn

0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:31.960
<v Speaker 1>and quartered and all that. But he this is obviously

0:13:32.080 --> 0:13:34.640
<v Speaker 1>not going the way it's supposed to. And if we're

0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:37.000
<v Speaker 1>going inspired by the Greek and Roman model, something is

0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:40.720
<v Speaker 1>obviously wrong here. Like not only is it unnecessarily painful,

0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:43.199
<v Speaker 1>this does not really seem like an honorable death. This

0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:47.200
<v Speaker 1>seems humiliating. Yeah, there's nothing noble about this, you know,

0:13:47.280 --> 0:13:50.960
<v Speaker 1>it's this is not a finely craft instrument wielded by

0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:54.360
<v Speaker 1>a by and by an expert practitioner. This is just

0:13:54.400 --> 0:13:59.520
<v Speaker 1>a clumsy exercise and horror. But what if mechanical controls

0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:03.240
<v Speaker 1>could be said at in place the same level of perfection,

0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:06.559
<v Speaker 1>regardless of whoever you know happens to be wearing the hood,

0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:10.440
<v Speaker 1>how tired they are, what sort of weapon they're using,

0:14:10.480 --> 0:14:13.880
<v Speaker 1>or what sort of six stuff they're into. A machine

0:14:13.960 --> 0:14:17.439
<v Speaker 1>that cannot get tired, It can't hesitate or engage in

0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:21.640
<v Speaker 1>unfair punishment. It's not gonna judge you based on your

0:14:21.720 --> 0:14:26.359
<v Speaker 1>your royal or commoner status. A good blade, some gravity,

0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:30.320
<v Speaker 1>and a simple frame with a necklock, well that would

0:14:30.320 --> 0:14:33.120
<v Speaker 1>be the guillotine. All right, We're gonna take a quick break,

0:14:33.120 --> 0:14:37.040
<v Speaker 1>and when we come back we will discuss some precursors

0:14:37.040 --> 0:14:44.920
<v Speaker 1>to the guillotine and the guillotine itself. All right, we're back.

0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:48.920
<v Speaker 1>So the guillotine of late eighteenth century France, which I'm

0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:51.240
<v Speaker 1>sure you've heard about before, that was involved in the

0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:54.640
<v Speaker 1>French Revolution, the Reign of Terror, the first French Republic.

0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:59.240
<v Speaker 1>That guillotine was not the first human head removal machine,

0:14:59.520 --> 0:15:01.440
<v Speaker 1>not by a long shot. And we're not saying it was.

0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:03.840
<v Speaker 1>You know that it was predated by people swinging in

0:15:03.880 --> 0:15:05.920
<v Speaker 1>axe or a sword with their hands, of course it was.

0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:10.040
<v Speaker 1>But there were organized machines for doing this job more

0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:14.040
<v Speaker 1>efficiently and in a more consistent way before the guillotine

0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:17.080
<v Speaker 1>was instituted in France, right, and and they worked along

0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:19.720
<v Speaker 1>the same principles. They maybe they weren't quite as refined,

0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:24.160
<v Speaker 1>but essentially the idea was there that we should say that.

0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:26.760
<v Speaker 1>It was only in the aftermath of the French Revolution

0:15:26.800 --> 0:15:30.880
<v Speaker 1>that people began referring to decapitation machines as guillotines. That's

0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:34.400
<v Speaker 1>where the name comes from. Yes, they had equally less

0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:38.160
<v Speaker 1>refined names. They had more grizzly names. One fines. We'll

0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:40.840
<v Speaker 1>meet a couple in a moment. So as for who

0:15:40.880 --> 0:15:44.920
<v Speaker 1>invented the first general decapitation machine, this is totally unknown,

0:15:45.160 --> 0:15:47.520
<v Speaker 1>lost to history, and in fact, we don't even know

0:15:47.600 --> 0:15:50.760
<v Speaker 1>for sure how many societies used a device like this.

0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:52.720
<v Speaker 1>There There are a lot of tales, but many of

0:15:52.720 --> 0:15:54.920
<v Speaker 1>these tales might not even be true. We don't know

0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:57.239
<v Speaker 1>for sure. Right and then how often is the individual

0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:02.040
<v Speaker 1>uh celebrated for creating such a thing? As we'll discover

0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:05.600
<v Speaker 1>the naming of the guillotine, It doesn't really relate to

0:16:05.640 --> 0:16:08.840
<v Speaker 1>the individual or individuals that created it, right. I mean,

0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:12.280
<v Speaker 1>a lot of people who create execution devices don't want

0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:15.240
<v Speaker 1>to be associated with And when you find the people

0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:17.360
<v Speaker 1>who do want to be associated with them or don't mind,

0:16:17.360 --> 0:16:19.200
<v Speaker 1>you've got to kind of wonder about those people. But

0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:23.200
<v Speaker 1>um So, there are a couple of known mechanical beheading

0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:27.120
<v Speaker 1>devices from England that predated the French guillotine, and one

0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:31.360
<v Speaker 1>is known as the Halifax Gibbet. So the how Halifax

0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:33.560
<v Speaker 1>is a town in West Yorkshire in England, and it

0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:36.920
<v Speaker 1>had this infamous beheading machine known as the Halifax Gibbet,

0:16:37.000 --> 0:16:40.640
<v Speaker 1>which was allegedly used mostly to punish petty theft. So

0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:43.520
<v Speaker 1>people would steal some small sum of money or something

0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:47.280
<v Speaker 1>worth not very much, some cloth or something, and into

0:16:47.400 --> 0:16:51.440
<v Speaker 1>the Halifax Gibbet they would go. It was described in

0:16:51.480 --> 0:16:54.440
<v Speaker 1>an eighteen thirty seven history by an author named William

0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:58.600
<v Speaker 1>White in the following way quote. The executions always took

0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:01.240
<v Speaker 1>place on the Great Mark at day in order to

0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:04.760
<v Speaker 1>strike the more terror into the neighborhood. When the criminal

0:17:04.840 --> 0:17:07.080
<v Speaker 1>was brought to the gibbet, which stood a little way

0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:09.720
<v Speaker 1>out of the town where part of the stone platform

0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:13.000
<v Speaker 1>may still be seen on Gibbet Hill. The execution was

0:17:13.040 --> 0:17:16.040
<v Speaker 1>performed by means of an engine, which was raised upon

0:17:16.040 --> 0:17:20.000
<v Speaker 1>a platform four ft high and thirteen feet square, faced

0:17:20.000 --> 0:17:22.720
<v Speaker 1>on every side with stone, and ascended by a flight

0:17:22.760 --> 0:17:25.840
<v Speaker 1>of steps. In the middle of this platform was placed

0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:29.639
<v Speaker 1>two upright pieces of timber fifteen feet high, joined at

0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:33.000
<v Speaker 1>the top by a transverse beam. Within these was a

0:17:33.080 --> 0:17:36.439
<v Speaker 1>square block of wood four feet and a half long,

0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:39.480
<v Speaker 1>which moved up and down by means of grooves made

0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:41.800
<v Speaker 1>for that purpose. To the lower part of the sliding

0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:45.040
<v Speaker 1>block was fastened in iron axe of the weight of

0:17:45.080 --> 0:17:48.600
<v Speaker 1>seven pounds and twelve ounces. The axe, thus fixed, was

0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:51.520
<v Speaker 1>drawn up to the top by a cord and pulley.

0:17:51.560 --> 0:17:53.600
<v Speaker 1>At the end of the cord was a pin, which,

0:17:53.840 --> 0:17:56.840
<v Speaker 1>being fixed to the block, kept it suspended till the

0:17:56.880 --> 0:18:00.200
<v Speaker 1>moment of execution. When the culprit, having placed his head

0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:02.960
<v Speaker 1>on the block, the pin was withdrawn and his head

0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:06.399
<v Speaker 1>was instantly severed from his body. If the offender was

0:18:06.440 --> 0:18:09.560
<v Speaker 1>condemned for stealing an ox, a sheep, or a horse,

0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:13.280
<v Speaker 1>the end of the rope was fastened to the beast, which,

0:18:13.520 --> 0:18:17.919
<v Speaker 1>being driven, pulled out the pin and thus became the executioner.

0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:20.960
<v Speaker 1>In other cases, the bailiff for his servant cut the

0:18:21.040 --> 0:18:24.320
<v Speaker 1>rope and allowed the axe to descend. It's a little

0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:29.040
<v Speaker 1>unnecessary complexity involving fim animals, but otherwise the basic principles

0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:30.960
<v Speaker 1>of the guillotine as we've come to know it. Yeah,

0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:33.159
<v Speaker 1>it's more or less there there. There might be some

0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:36.879
<v Speaker 1>design refinements we come on later, but this is the idea.

0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:40.320
<v Speaker 1>It's it's a reliable, consistent machine that's not going to

0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:42.919
<v Speaker 1>mess up. Right. And of course it doesn't sound like

0:18:42.960 --> 0:18:45.399
<v Speaker 1>it was necessarily a custom blade, or maybe it was,

0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:47.320
<v Speaker 1>but it's very much based on the design of an

0:18:47.320 --> 0:18:50.720
<v Speaker 1>axe blade. Yeah. And when you see illustrations, it looks

0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:53.159
<v Speaker 1>like just a large axe head on the bottom of

0:18:53.160 --> 0:18:56.560
<v Speaker 1>a huge wooden block. Uh So, this beheading machine of

0:18:56.600 --> 0:19:00.000
<v Speaker 1>Halifax was famous enough that the English poet John Taylor

0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:04.960
<v Speaker 1>are referenced it alongside the notoriously tough police of Kingston

0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:07.800
<v Speaker 1>upon Hull in a poem uh that that I thought

0:19:07.840 --> 0:19:10.679
<v Speaker 1>was pretty good. He writes, there is a proverb and

0:19:10.720 --> 0:19:14.000
<v Speaker 1>a prayer withal that we may not to Three strange

0:19:14.080 --> 0:19:19.120
<v Speaker 1>places fall from Hull, from Halifax, from Hell. 'tis thus

0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:23.440
<v Speaker 1>from all these three, good Lord deliver us at Halifax.

0:19:23.520 --> 0:19:26.520
<v Speaker 1>The law so sharp doth deal that whoso more than

0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:30.600
<v Speaker 1>one threepence doth steal. They have a lynn that wondrous,

0:19:30.680 --> 0:19:34.280
<v Speaker 1>quick and well, since thieves all headless unto Heaven or Hell.

0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:38.280
<v Speaker 1>From Hell, each man says, Lord, deliver me, because from

0:19:38.320 --> 0:19:42.040
<v Speaker 1>Hell can no redemption be. Men may escape from Hull

0:19:42.119 --> 0:19:45.879
<v Speaker 1>and Halifax, but sure in Hell there is a heavier tax.

0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:48.880
<v Speaker 1>It sounds pretty good. Well. I like how it's sort

0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:52.159
<v Speaker 1>of captures two themes there. One is that how the

0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:55.359
<v Speaker 1>Halifax jibbit is deadly and something to be feared, but

0:19:55.440 --> 0:19:58.840
<v Speaker 1>it also contrasts it with the supposed tortures of Hell.

0:19:58.960 --> 0:20:01.760
<v Speaker 1>I guess again in a sizing that, well, it's not

0:20:01.840 --> 0:20:04.600
<v Speaker 1>as torturous as many of the other methods that are

0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:07.320
<v Speaker 1>being used. Yeah, he's almost describing it like it's a

0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:12.720
<v Speaker 1>like it's a plane ticket to to greater rewards or suffering,

0:20:12.760 --> 0:20:17.040
<v Speaker 1>depending on how one supernatural revenge fantasy is playing out here.

0:20:17.440 --> 0:20:19.560
<v Speaker 1>But on the other hand, I like that it is

0:20:19.640 --> 0:20:24.040
<v Speaker 1>to a certain extent farm animals. Uh, you know. Notwithstanding,

0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:28.520
<v Speaker 1>it is to a certain extent saving the horrors of

0:20:28.600 --> 0:20:32.520
<v Speaker 1>an afterlife for those imagined afterlife and not trying to

0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:37.640
<v Speaker 1>um embody them too much in the act of execution itself. Yeah. Now,

0:20:37.640 --> 0:20:39.920
<v Speaker 1>whether that's actually a good thing or not, we can

0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:42.679
<v Speaker 1>discuss later, but it does seem to be there's at

0:20:42.760 --> 0:20:47.240
<v Speaker 1>least there's at least a superficial kind of humaneness to write,

0:20:47.720 --> 0:20:49.720
<v Speaker 1>even though it seems to be being lumped on people

0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:53.800
<v Speaker 1>who commit extremely pent crimes and not and no matter

0:20:53.880 --> 0:20:58.080
<v Speaker 1>what you think, really probably deserving of death. But there's

0:20:58.119 --> 0:21:02.080
<v Speaker 1>some strange stories about how people reacted to what happened

0:21:02.080 --> 0:21:05.200
<v Speaker 1>with at the Halifax gibbet. The story in Thomas Wright

0:21:05.280 --> 0:21:08.719
<v Speaker 1>tells a legend quote of a countrywoman who was writing

0:21:08.760 --> 0:21:11.800
<v Speaker 1>by the gibbet on her hampers to the market just

0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:14.560
<v Speaker 1>at the execution of a criminal when the acts chopped

0:21:14.600 --> 0:21:17.959
<v Speaker 1>his neck through with such force that the head jumped

0:21:18.000 --> 0:21:21.240
<v Speaker 1>into one of her hampers, or as others say, seized

0:21:21.280 --> 0:21:24.879
<v Speaker 1>her apron with the teeth and they're stuck for some time.

0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:28.600
<v Speaker 1>I don't believe that's true, or at least the teeth

0:21:28.640 --> 0:21:30.840
<v Speaker 1>I don't believe. Again, we're coming back to the sort

0:21:30.880 --> 0:21:35.760
<v Speaker 1>of inherent comedy. I mean, it's true gallows humor, uh

0:21:35.800 --> 0:21:40.480
<v Speaker 1>that comes with beheading executions. But there's an interesting observation

0:21:40.920 --> 0:21:44.400
<v Speaker 1>from the Halifax historian John Crabtree, who has a sort

0:21:44.440 --> 0:21:48.359
<v Speaker 1>of attitude about what stories like this mean. He writes, quote,

0:21:48.600 --> 0:21:51.199
<v Speaker 1>it is useless employing words about this fair, but the

0:21:51.240 --> 0:21:55.040
<v Speaker 1>circumstance may serve to show with what apathy the country

0:21:55.080 --> 0:21:58.920
<v Speaker 1>people regarded this mode of punishment. Their minds were evidently

0:21:59.040 --> 0:22:03.240
<v Speaker 1>hardened by such exhibitions, and the fact develops the inadequacy

0:22:03.280 --> 0:22:06.880
<v Speaker 1>of such awful administrations of justice to produce that proper

0:22:06.960 --> 0:22:11.919
<v Speaker 1>moral and salutary effect which might have been anticipated. Such scenes,

0:22:12.040 --> 0:22:16.640
<v Speaker 1>often repeated, appear to harden rather than soften, to stupefy,

0:22:16.920 --> 0:22:20.159
<v Speaker 1>rather than awaken, the sensibilities of man's nature. And I

0:22:20.200 --> 0:22:22.800
<v Speaker 1>think we should come back to that thought later on. Indeed,

0:22:22.840 --> 0:22:24.560
<v Speaker 1>all right, so what else do we have in terms

0:22:24.600 --> 0:22:29.159
<v Speaker 1>of proto guillotine machines. Well, a quicker story is just

0:22:29.320 --> 0:22:33.080
<v Speaker 1>a copy essentially of the Halifax Gibbitt known as the

0:22:33.080 --> 0:22:36.919
<v Speaker 1>Scottish Maiden. So James Douglas, the fourth Earl of Morton,

0:22:37.000 --> 0:22:39.600
<v Speaker 1>who was the ruler of Scotland from fifteen seventy two

0:22:39.640 --> 0:22:42.200
<v Speaker 1>to fifteen seventy eight. He was alleged at some point

0:22:42.280 --> 0:22:46.720
<v Speaker 1>to have introduced the decapitation machine to his country of Scots,

0:22:46.760 --> 0:22:49.840
<v Speaker 1>inspired by the Halifax Gibbet. Allegedly he at some point

0:22:49.920 --> 0:22:52.960
<v Speaker 1>traveled through Halifax and he was so inspired by the

0:22:53.000 --> 0:22:55.320
<v Speaker 1>gibbet that he thought, well, I should share this same

0:22:55.359 --> 0:22:59.040
<v Speaker 1>technology with my countrymen. So a similar machine was built

0:22:59.040 --> 0:23:01.280
<v Speaker 1>out of oak and it can be transported around the

0:23:01.320 --> 0:23:04.360
<v Speaker 1>country to perform beheadings wherever. But it was often accepting

0:23:04.400 --> 0:23:07.920
<v Speaker 1>the condemned at Edinburgh, and according to the National Museums

0:23:07.920 --> 0:23:10.119
<v Speaker 1>of Scotland, crimes that could get you sent to the

0:23:10.119 --> 0:23:17.679
<v Speaker 1>Scottish Maiden included murder, incest, stealing, treason, adultery, forgery and robbery.

0:23:17.720 --> 0:23:21.400
<v Speaker 1>But there's an ironic twist. So James Douglas the Earl,

0:23:21.560 --> 0:23:24.399
<v Speaker 1>fourth Earl of Morton was a supporter of James the

0:23:24.440 --> 0:23:28.800
<v Speaker 1>sixth and Morton opposed the Catholic faction of Mary, Queen

0:23:28.800 --> 0:23:31.760
<v Speaker 1>of Scott's who we discussed earlier, Mary Stewart, and he

0:23:31.840 --> 0:23:35.879
<v Speaker 1>was eventually implicated in a plot to murder Mary's second husband,

0:23:35.960 --> 0:23:40.640
<v Speaker 1>Lord Darnley, and was put to death in June, decapitated

0:23:40.680 --> 0:23:44.240
<v Speaker 1>by the Scottish Maiden that he brought to Scotland. Ah,

0:23:44.480 --> 0:23:48.920
<v Speaker 1>there's your poetic justice. Uh. And legends of that kind

0:23:48.960 --> 0:23:51.800
<v Speaker 1>will appear again and again in this episode actually, well

0:23:52.160 --> 0:23:54.359
<v Speaker 1>and even beyond this episode, because this isn't that a

0:23:54.400 --> 0:23:58.920
<v Speaker 1>common theme? The man destroyed by his own invention, by

0:23:58.960 --> 0:24:01.639
<v Speaker 1>his own machine. It happens enough in the movies that

0:24:01.680 --> 0:24:04.680
<v Speaker 1>you should think it happens more often in reality. Though

0:24:04.720 --> 0:24:07.439
<v Speaker 1>in the movies it's especially common when that invention is

0:24:07.480 --> 0:24:10.800
<v Speaker 1>some kind of hybrid animal, like I created a shark ape,

0:24:10.920 --> 0:24:13.639
<v Speaker 1>and you know it swings from the trees, taking bites

0:24:13.640 --> 0:24:16.760
<v Speaker 1>out of people who could have known my shark ape

0:24:16.800 --> 0:24:20.520
<v Speaker 1>would turn on me, and yet it always happens. Alright, So,

0:24:20.800 --> 0:24:23.840
<v Speaker 1>as we've been discussing, there were similar devices already used

0:24:23.840 --> 0:24:27.200
<v Speaker 1>in Europe and had been for centuries before the guillotine

0:24:27.200 --> 0:24:30.000
<v Speaker 1>came around. But the individual who is often credited as

0:24:30.040 --> 0:24:34.080
<v Speaker 1>the inventor of the guillotine, uh is a French surgeon

0:24:34.240 --> 0:24:39.320
<v Speaker 1>and physiologist Antoine Louis who lives seventy three through seventeen

0:24:39.400 --> 0:24:42.440
<v Speaker 1>nine two. Yeah, he is often credited as the inventor,

0:24:42.520 --> 0:24:45.080
<v Speaker 1>though based on what I was reading, it appears to

0:24:45.119 --> 0:24:48.320
<v Speaker 1>me was maybe designed by some sort of committee of

0:24:48.359 --> 0:24:51.360
<v Speaker 1>which Louis was the leader. Right, And this is actually

0:24:51.480 --> 0:24:54.479
<v Speaker 1>all the more fitting when We really get to the

0:24:54.480 --> 0:24:57.600
<v Speaker 1>heart of the guillotine here, because it is this, this

0:24:57.720 --> 0:25:01.080
<v Speaker 1>thing that is it is this utilization of technology and

0:25:01.119 --> 0:25:04.760
<v Speaker 1>this there's a there's an air of civility to it. Uh.

0:25:04.920 --> 0:25:07.840
<v Speaker 1>This this taking something that is kind of that is

0:25:07.920 --> 0:25:10.880
<v Speaker 1>rather barbaric and making it a little less so. Well,

0:25:10.880 --> 0:25:15.360
<v Speaker 1>it's bureaucratic violence. Yes, it very much embodies the idea

0:25:15.800 --> 0:25:18.399
<v Speaker 1>of retributive violence by the state, taken out of the

0:25:18.400 --> 0:25:21.840
<v Speaker 1>emotional hands of the single executioner and placed into the

0:25:21.880 --> 0:25:25.119
<v Speaker 1>hands of a disembodied machine that is created by a

0:25:25.160 --> 0:25:28.639
<v Speaker 1>committee through drafts. Yes. You know, we have another episode

0:25:28.960 --> 0:25:31.720
<v Speaker 1>that we're recording this week on vending machines, and it's

0:25:31.720 --> 0:25:36.000
<v Speaker 1>amazing this the similarities involved here, this this these sometimes

0:25:36.000 --> 0:25:40.199
<v Speaker 1>these struggles over what exactly is happening when a machine

0:25:40.240 --> 0:25:44.040
<v Speaker 1>does the bidding of a human. If a machine is vending, say,

0:25:44.119 --> 0:25:47.639
<v Speaker 1>blasphemous literature, as we discussed in this other episode, then

0:25:47.960 --> 0:25:51.240
<v Speaker 1>who is it fault foresaid literature sale? And uh and

0:25:51.240 --> 0:25:53.240
<v Speaker 1>there's a sense of that here too. It's like the

0:25:53.280 --> 0:25:57.960
<v Speaker 1>bureaucracy has condemned you to death, the machine is actually

0:25:58.119 --> 0:26:01.359
<v Speaker 1>doing the execution. Uh, we're just merely you know, pushing

0:26:01.400 --> 0:26:05.000
<v Speaker 1>the button, pulling the string, etcetera. To carry out this judgment, right,

0:26:05.160 --> 0:26:08.199
<v Speaker 1>But we do at least have Antoine Louis to associate

0:26:08.240 --> 0:26:10.399
<v Speaker 1>with the creation of the machine, even if it wasn't

0:26:10.480 --> 0:26:14.000
<v Speaker 1>just him alone. But because of his association with it,

0:26:14.000 --> 0:26:17.440
<v Speaker 1>it was often early on it was called names. Not

0:26:17.520 --> 0:26:20.600
<v Speaker 1>the Guillotine yet, but names like the Louisette or the

0:26:20.680 --> 0:26:22.960
<v Speaker 1>louis Zone, which doesn't have as much of a ring

0:26:23.000 --> 0:26:25.360
<v Speaker 1>to it. Oh, I kind of like it. I could

0:26:25.359 --> 0:26:28.240
<v Speaker 1>see executions by the Louisette. Yeah, I guess it would

0:26:28.240 --> 0:26:30.800
<v Speaker 1>have grown on us. But at any rate, later it

0:26:30.840 --> 0:26:36.320
<v Speaker 1>definitely came to be named after Joseph Ignace Guillotan, who

0:26:36.320 --> 0:26:41.640
<v Speaker 1>lived seventy through eighteen fourteen. He was a physician, uh,

0:26:41.680 --> 0:26:44.480
<v Speaker 1>he was a National Assembly member, and he played a

0:26:44.520 --> 0:26:47.280
<v Speaker 1>major role in passing the legislation that made death by

0:26:47.359 --> 0:26:51.119
<v Speaker 1>machine the law. The loose idea here is that it

0:26:51.119 --> 0:26:54.320
<v Speaker 1>would this kind of legislation would provide the best possible

0:26:54.480 --> 0:26:58.800
<v Speaker 1>version of beheading to all classes of society. And we

0:26:58.840 --> 0:27:01.639
<v Speaker 1>do have to point out that bite some urban legends

0:27:01.680 --> 0:27:06.600
<v Speaker 1>out there, Guillotine himself was not killed by his own machine,

0:27:06.680 --> 0:27:09.320
<v Speaker 1>and he wasn't actually a huge fan of execution either.

0:27:09.359 --> 0:27:13.240
<v Speaker 1>It's not like he was a huge execution enthusiasts. Well, no,

0:27:13.320 --> 0:27:17.040
<v Speaker 1>exactly the opposite. Guilloton opposed the death penalty. He wanted

0:27:17.080 --> 0:27:19.440
<v Speaker 1>the abolition of the death penalty, but he didn't think

0:27:19.480 --> 0:27:22.560
<v Speaker 1>that he could accomplish that directly. Right, this seemed the

0:27:23.680 --> 0:27:26.480
<v Speaker 1>best reasonable next step, Right, It's like, if I can't

0:27:26.480 --> 0:27:28.800
<v Speaker 1>we can't eradicate it, we're going to have it. We

0:27:28.920 --> 0:27:32.320
<v Speaker 1>might as well make it clean and uh and fair

0:27:32.480 --> 0:27:36.199
<v Speaker 1>to all involved. According to a popular legend, Guilloton was

0:27:36.320 --> 0:27:39.760
<v Speaker 1>born when his pregnant mother was out walking one day

0:27:39.800 --> 0:27:43.399
<v Speaker 1>and she overheard the screams of a condemned criminal being

0:27:43.440 --> 0:27:45.720
<v Speaker 1>broken on the wheel. And breaking on the wheel was

0:27:45.800 --> 0:27:48.760
<v Speaker 1>you know, a classic death by torture type method, where

0:27:48.920 --> 0:27:51.200
<v Speaker 1>a person would be stretched out on a wheel in

0:27:51.280 --> 0:27:54.080
<v Speaker 1>a kind of starfish poson. They'd have their limbs broken

0:27:54.119 --> 0:27:59.240
<v Speaker 1>with an iron rod or with a club. Just insane brutality.

0:27:59.680 --> 0:28:01.680
<v Speaker 1>So he is very much opposed to that sort of thing,

0:28:01.680 --> 0:28:04.680
<v Speaker 1>not only just the bar the barbaric nature of the execution,

0:28:04.880 --> 0:28:07.919
<v Speaker 1>but the public nature of it, the idea that that

0:28:08.480 --> 0:28:12.800
<v Speaker 1>women and children, uh, just innocent bystanders might just walk

0:28:12.880 --> 0:28:17.239
<v Speaker 1>through town and witness such uh, such horror. So he

0:28:17.320 --> 0:28:20.520
<v Speaker 1>was thinking, maybe if less children end up watching this,

0:28:20.680 --> 0:28:23.280
<v Speaker 1>the better, Yes, and make it. Yeah, it's more systematic,

0:28:23.440 --> 0:28:26.960
<v Speaker 1>it's more you know that the act itself is less flashy.

0:28:27.000 --> 0:28:29.199
<v Speaker 1>And then we're just gonna make it less for performance.

0:28:29.600 --> 0:28:33.080
<v Speaker 1>So Guillot Tom was not out there lobbying to get

0:28:33.119 --> 0:28:36.280
<v Speaker 1>this machine named after his family. No, No, it just

0:28:36.560 --> 0:28:38.920
<v Speaker 1>it ended up sticking. Now, a cool little fact here

0:28:39.000 --> 0:28:41.240
<v Speaker 1>that sounds like something right out of an Alan Moore

0:28:41.360 --> 0:28:46.600
<v Speaker 1>comic book. But along with Benjamin Franklin, uh, Guillotine investigated

0:28:46.680 --> 0:28:51.960
<v Speaker 1>the work of friends mesmer of mesmerism, you know, the

0:28:51.960 --> 0:28:54.480
<v Speaker 1>the form of hypnotism that we had back in the

0:28:54.560 --> 0:28:57.760
<v Speaker 1>day u and they investigated him on behalf of King

0:28:57.800 --> 0:29:04.880
<v Speaker 1>Louis the League of Extraordinary Gentleman exactly. So another way

0:29:04.880 --> 0:29:07.440
<v Speaker 1>of thinking, you alluded to this a minute ago, Robert

0:29:07.480 --> 0:29:09.960
<v Speaker 1>like the idea that it would be the best method

0:29:10.240 --> 0:29:13.480
<v Speaker 1>for all the classes. So another way of thinking about

0:29:13.480 --> 0:29:16.920
<v Speaker 1>the motivation for the institution of the guillotine at this

0:29:16.960 --> 0:29:21.520
<v Speaker 1>time in history was that it supposedly extended the democratic

0:29:21.600 --> 0:29:27.480
<v Speaker 1>and egalitarian principles of the French Revolution to common criminals. Essentially,

0:29:27.560 --> 0:29:31.880
<v Speaker 1>extending them the courtesy of the honorable beheading that was

0:29:31.960 --> 0:29:35.920
<v Speaker 1>more often reserved for nobles and aristocrats, instead of more

0:29:36.000 --> 0:29:39.840
<v Speaker 1>shameful and common and painful deaths like hanging, burning, or

0:29:39.880 --> 0:29:41.840
<v Speaker 1>breaking on the wheel, which you were more likely to

0:29:41.880 --> 0:29:45.040
<v Speaker 1>get if you were just some lower class petty criminal. Now,

0:29:45.080 --> 0:29:47.960
<v Speaker 1>as for the idea Guillotin had, thinking that this would

0:29:47.960 --> 0:29:52.640
<v Speaker 1>shield children from the gruesome practice of execution, unfortunately this

0:29:52.720 --> 0:29:55.600
<v Speaker 1>did not work out. I was reading a section from

0:29:55.960 --> 0:29:59.479
<v Speaker 1>a book called Children's Toys of Bygone Days, A History

0:29:59.480 --> 0:30:02.840
<v Speaker 1>of play things of all people's from prehistoric times to

0:30:02.920 --> 0:30:07.920
<v Speaker 1>the nineteenth century by Carl Grober, published in nineteen and

0:30:08.320 --> 0:30:11.680
<v Speaker 1>the author writes, quote, the worst monstrosity of the kind

0:30:11.840 --> 0:30:14.440
<v Speaker 1>was the outcome of the French Revolution, which indeed was

0:30:14.520 --> 0:30:18.560
<v Speaker 1>over rich in aberrations of taste. The toy shops put

0:30:18.560 --> 0:30:22.760
<v Speaker 1>on the market little guillotines with which little patriots could

0:30:22.760 --> 0:30:27.280
<v Speaker 1>be head figures of aristocrats. They're still survives some specimens

0:30:27.320 --> 0:30:30.560
<v Speaker 1>of this pretty and diverting machine, one of which bears

0:30:30.600 --> 0:30:33.480
<v Speaker 1>the date seventeen ninety four, and he's got an illustration.

0:30:34.000 --> 0:30:36.840
<v Speaker 1>These were not models, but pure toys, And in proof

0:30:36.880 --> 0:30:39.760
<v Speaker 1>of this we have the King's evidence from one whom

0:30:39.800 --> 0:30:43.280
<v Speaker 1>we should never suspect of wishing to give so bloodthirsty

0:30:43.320 --> 0:30:46.560
<v Speaker 1>a toy to his little son. And here the author

0:30:46.640 --> 0:30:49.959
<v Speaker 1>is speaking of the romantic poet Johann wolf Kang von Gota.

0:30:51.040 --> 0:30:56.120
<v Speaker 1>So Gruber tells the story that in December seventeen nine,

0:30:56.520 --> 0:30:59.680
<v Speaker 1>Girta wrote a letter to his mother and Frankfort, asking

0:30:59.720 --> 0:31:02.720
<v Speaker 1>if you would buy a toy guillotine for his little son,

0:31:03.320 --> 0:31:06.200
<v Speaker 1>and she replied, dear son, anything I can do to

0:31:06.240 --> 0:31:08.600
<v Speaker 1>please you is gladly done and gives me joy. But

0:31:08.680 --> 0:31:11.719
<v Speaker 1>to buy such an infamous implement of murder that I

0:31:11.760 --> 0:31:14.480
<v Speaker 1>will not do at any price. If I had authority,

0:31:14.520 --> 0:31:16.520
<v Speaker 1>the maker should be put in the stocks, and I

0:31:16.520 --> 0:31:19.920
<v Speaker 1>would have the machine publicly burnt by the common executioner.

0:31:20.600 --> 0:31:22.480
<v Speaker 1>And I guess this is sort of the seventeen nineties

0:31:22.560 --> 0:31:25.080
<v Speaker 1>equivalent of like asking your grandmother to buy you a

0:31:25.120 --> 0:31:28.120
<v Speaker 1>copy of Doom for Christmas in the nineteen nineties. Yeah, well,

0:31:28.120 --> 0:31:31.360
<v Speaker 1>I'm glad that you brought up Doom here. And just

0:31:31.440 --> 0:31:33.600
<v Speaker 1>because it's it's easy for us to look back on

0:31:33.640 --> 0:31:35.960
<v Speaker 1>this account and think, oh, these children of a more

0:31:36.840 --> 0:31:40.840
<v Speaker 1>barbarous age. But go to any toy store and look

0:31:41.080 --> 0:31:46.560
<v Speaker 1>at the machine gun based toys that are on display. There,

0:31:46.680 --> 0:31:50.560
<v Speaker 1>all the various guns like true true murder weapons. Um,

0:31:50.880 --> 0:31:55.160
<v Speaker 1>not even methods of bureaucratic execution, but weapons of just

0:31:55.200 --> 0:32:01.080
<v Speaker 1>wanton violence. Uh. These are all represented in toys even today. Uh. Likewise,

0:32:01.120 --> 0:32:03.520
<v Speaker 1>I can't help but think back on how much I

0:32:03.600 --> 0:32:06.440
<v Speaker 1>wanted the slime pit when I was a kid. What

0:32:06.560 --> 0:32:09.040
<v Speaker 1>is that? This was a master's of the universe. Place

0:32:09.120 --> 0:32:12.760
<v Speaker 1>set the device and basically you would lock he man

0:32:12.960 --> 0:32:16.120
<v Speaker 1>or some other figure into the machine and it was

0:32:16.200 --> 0:32:18.320
<v Speaker 1>like shaped like a skull, and then it would dump

0:32:18.400 --> 0:32:20.640
<v Speaker 1>slime on top of the head of the poor hero.

0:32:21.080 --> 0:32:23.200
<v Speaker 1>And it was I think that maybe the actual lore

0:32:23.240 --> 0:32:25.160
<v Speaker 1>of it was like I would make them mutate or something,

0:32:25.160 --> 0:32:28.000
<v Speaker 1>but it was very much Uh. It was very much

0:32:28.000 --> 0:32:30.640
<v Speaker 1>like a guillotine, except instead of a blade, it was slime.

0:32:30.720 --> 0:32:34.320
<v Speaker 1>It was like clearly an instrument of execution, of of

0:32:34.480 --> 0:32:38.880
<v Speaker 1>ritualized death for your toys. So you're arranging an execution

0:32:38.920 --> 0:32:42.200
<v Speaker 1>for he man exactly. So you know, the the idea

0:32:42.200 --> 0:32:46.320
<v Speaker 1>of a toy guillotine, it makes perfect sense. Uh. We can't.

0:32:46.360 --> 0:32:48.880
<v Speaker 1>We can only distance ourselves from such an idea so much.

0:32:49.040 --> 0:32:53.040
<v Speaker 1>Though I also have to wonder I somehow detect between

0:32:53.080 --> 0:32:55.600
<v Speaker 1>the lines. This could have been one of those situations

0:32:56.120 --> 0:32:58.560
<v Speaker 1>where and Robert, I bet you're familiar with this, where

0:32:58.560 --> 0:33:01.800
<v Speaker 1>a dad buys or requests a toy for his child

0:33:01.840 --> 0:33:06.200
<v Speaker 1>because secretly he wants to play. Uh. In fact, Gerta

0:33:06.240 --> 0:33:11.000
<v Speaker 1>wrote in faust quote ages no second childhood age makes

0:33:11.040 --> 0:33:16.800
<v Speaker 1>plain children. We were true children. We remain again much

0:33:16.840 --> 0:33:19.440
<v Speaker 1>like it is today. Now we mentioned that Guillaton was

0:33:19.920 --> 0:33:24.600
<v Speaker 1>responsible for introducing legislation that would eventually lead the French

0:33:24.720 --> 0:33:27.560
<v Speaker 1>National Assembly to say, okay, we're only going to be

0:33:27.680 --> 0:33:30.800
<v Speaker 1>killing people by beheading machine. Now that that's that's going

0:33:30.840 --> 0:33:33.840
<v Speaker 1>to be the new method of execution. That's what's humane,

0:33:33.960 --> 0:33:36.200
<v Speaker 1>that's what the state should be up to. And so

0:33:36.240 --> 0:33:38.000
<v Speaker 1>I think in just a minute we should turn to

0:33:38.120 --> 0:33:41.320
<v Speaker 1>the machine itself. But I just wanted quickly before we

0:33:41.360 --> 0:33:45.040
<v Speaker 1>do that, to discuss where it is that this rumor

0:33:45.160 --> 0:33:48.120
<v Speaker 1>came from. The Guillotan was killed by the machine that

0:33:48.240 --> 0:33:52.520
<v Speaker 1>he recommended putting in place for executions in France. And

0:33:52.560 --> 0:33:54.720
<v Speaker 1>I think I know maybe a few threads of where

0:33:54.720 --> 0:33:57.800
<v Speaker 1>the story came from. Obviously, we had that ironic story

0:33:57.800 --> 0:34:00.320
<v Speaker 1>of the Earl of Morton earlier, right, so we can

0:34:00.360 --> 0:34:03.800
<v Speaker 1>see how that might have influenced confused the telling. Right.

0:34:03.880 --> 0:34:05.520
<v Speaker 1>But then there are a couple of other examples. So

0:34:05.680 --> 0:34:09.320
<v Speaker 1>Dr Antoine Louis, the secretary of the Academy of Medicine

0:34:09.320 --> 0:34:12.279
<v Speaker 1>and physician to King Louis, the one who we talked

0:34:12.280 --> 0:34:16.560
<v Speaker 1>about earlier, chairing that committee that designed the device, He

0:34:16.880 --> 0:34:20.919
<v Speaker 1>was actually temporarily condemned to die in the machine that

0:34:21.000 --> 0:34:24.600
<v Speaker 1>he designed or helped design, though he escaped this fate

0:34:24.960 --> 0:34:28.200
<v Speaker 1>basically during a change of power. So he narrowly escaped

0:34:28.280 --> 0:34:32.000
<v Speaker 1>going to the guillotine himself. And then King Louis the sixteenth,

0:34:32.080 --> 0:34:35.360
<v Speaker 1>who was interested in mechanical engineering, is said to have

0:34:35.480 --> 0:34:39.200
<v Speaker 1>made refinements to the design of the guillotine, like recommending

0:34:39.239 --> 0:34:42.920
<v Speaker 1>an angled blade while he was still in power, before

0:34:43.000 --> 0:34:45.520
<v Speaker 1>the device was eventually turned on the King himself and

0:34:45.680 --> 0:34:48.439
<v Speaker 1>on his wife Marie Antoinette. And so there's another kind

0:34:48.440 --> 0:34:52.319
<v Speaker 1>of like creator and then killed by his creation irony there,

0:34:52.360 --> 0:34:55.880
<v Speaker 1>since he apparently or at least allegedly offered refinements to

0:34:55.920 --> 0:34:58.200
<v Speaker 1>the design. All right, well, and that note, We're gonna

0:34:58.200 --> 0:35:00.239
<v Speaker 1>take one more break, and when we come back we'll

0:35:00.239 --> 0:35:03.760
<v Speaker 1>discuss the machine itself. In more detail, and we'll also

0:35:03.800 --> 0:35:11.640
<v Speaker 1>discuss its legacy. All right, we're back. So now we're

0:35:11.680 --> 0:35:14.680
<v Speaker 1>at the machine itself, the French guillotine of the seventeen

0:35:14.719 --> 0:35:18.560
<v Speaker 1>eighties and onward. And the question is was it actually built? Well,

0:35:18.600 --> 0:35:20.799
<v Speaker 1>of course it was. This one was definitely built. Some

0:35:20.840 --> 0:35:24.520
<v Speaker 1>of the inventions were discussing on this show, you know,

0:35:24.640 --> 0:35:27.600
<v Speaker 1>maybe didn't get out of the blueprint phase. This definitely

0:35:27.640 --> 0:35:30.920
<v Speaker 1>saw action. So after the legal standard of execution by

0:35:30.960 --> 0:35:34.640
<v Speaker 1>machine was approved by the National Assembly in sev the

0:35:34.680 --> 0:35:37.879
<v Speaker 1>construction of the machine was delegated to a politician named

0:35:38.239 --> 0:35:42.840
<v Speaker 1>Pierre Louis red Areo, who I'm always going to struggle

0:35:42.880 --> 0:35:45.640
<v Speaker 1>with that name, so I'll just call him Pierre here. Uh.

0:35:45.680 --> 0:35:48.680
<v Speaker 1>He apparently had trouble finding a contractor who could build

0:35:48.719 --> 0:35:51.920
<v Speaker 1>the machine since no one wanted their name associated with it,

0:35:51.960 --> 0:35:55.040
<v Speaker 1>and eventually found a taker was a taker from Germany,

0:35:55.320 --> 0:35:59.440
<v Speaker 1>and so the guillotine was constructed by a German harpsichord maker,

0:36:00.000 --> 0:36:04.240
<v Speaker 1>aimed Tobias Schmidt. Apparently he also supplied a leather sack

0:36:04.320 --> 0:36:06.319
<v Speaker 1>that would catch heads. And now you can you just

0:36:06.360 --> 0:36:09.520
<v Speaker 1>gotta wonder about Tobias. I can just imagine the scenario

0:36:09.640 --> 0:36:12.360
<v Speaker 1>it's like, so, honey, what are you working on today?

0:36:12.440 --> 0:36:14.759
<v Speaker 1>I get this new contracted. You know it pays well,

0:36:14.800 --> 0:36:17.719
<v Speaker 1>it's gonna really help us out next month. Oh who

0:36:17.719 --> 0:36:19.759
<v Speaker 1>are you putting a hots harpsichorde of chord for? Oh,

0:36:19.800 --> 0:36:22.920
<v Speaker 1>it's not quite a harpsichord. Well, I'm just imagining you

0:36:23.360 --> 0:36:26.360
<v Speaker 1>in his shop while he's working on the guillotine. That

0:36:26.520 --> 0:36:31.440
<v Speaker 1>harpsichord music is constantly playing Dan Dan Dan Dan Dan dy. Anyway,

0:36:31.560 --> 0:36:35.480
<v Speaker 1>according to the memoirs of the French executioner Enrie Clement

0:36:35.680 --> 0:36:39.920
<v Speaker 1>Sans Song in eighteen seventy six, saints On came from

0:36:39.960 --> 0:36:43.799
<v Speaker 1>a line of a long line of executioners, and he

0:36:43.960 --> 0:36:47.040
<v Speaker 1>so he has these memoirs about his family's exploits, cutting

0:36:47.080 --> 0:36:51.240
<v Speaker 1>off heads and performing executions in France, and his memoirs

0:36:51.239 --> 0:36:54.800
<v Speaker 1>are considered probably only partially reliable, but his up close

0:36:54.840 --> 0:36:58.120
<v Speaker 1>description of the workings of the guillotine is fairly straightforward.

0:36:58.160 --> 0:36:59.799
<v Speaker 1>So I see, I feel like he's probably on the

0:37:00.200 --> 0:37:02.400
<v Speaker 1>track here. All right, I'm gonna read part of this

0:37:02.440 --> 0:37:05.120
<v Speaker 1>and I'm gonna I'm gonna go for an executioner's voice

0:37:05.120 --> 0:37:08.160
<v Speaker 1>here do it on a scaffold from seven to eight

0:37:08.160 --> 0:37:11.239
<v Speaker 1>feet high. Two parallel bars are made fast in one end.

0:37:11.640 --> 0:37:15.560
<v Speaker 1>Their top part is united by a strong crossbar. To

0:37:15.680 --> 0:37:18.439
<v Speaker 1>this crossbar is added a thick iron ring, and which

0:37:18.480 --> 0:37:21.680
<v Speaker 1>is past a rope which fixes and retains a ram.

0:37:21.719 --> 0:37:24.720
<v Speaker 1>This is perpendicularly armed with a sharp and broad blade,

0:37:24.880 --> 0:37:27.920
<v Speaker 1>which gradually becomes broader on all its surface, so then

0:37:27.960 --> 0:37:32.560
<v Speaker 1>instead of striking perpendicularly, it strikes sideways, so that there

0:37:32.640 --> 0:37:35.080
<v Speaker 1>is not an inch of the blade that does not serve.

0:37:35.680 --> 0:37:39.720
<v Speaker 1>The ram ways from pounds, and its weight is doubled

0:37:39.760 --> 0:37:42.680
<v Speaker 1>when it begins to slide down. It is enclosed in

0:37:42.719 --> 0:37:46.000
<v Speaker 1>the groove of the bars. A spring makes it fast

0:37:46.040 --> 0:37:49.080
<v Speaker 1>to the left bar. A band of iron descends along

0:37:49.080 --> 0:37:52.000
<v Speaker 1>the outside of the same bar, and the handle is

0:37:52.120 --> 0:37:54.600
<v Speaker 1>locked to a ring with a padlock, so that no

0:37:54.840 --> 0:37:58.080
<v Speaker 1>accident is possible and the weight only falls from the

0:37:58.200 --> 0:38:02.960
<v Speaker 1>executioner interferes to a way plank. Strong straps are fastened

0:38:03.160 --> 0:38:06.000
<v Speaker 1>by which the criminal is attached under the armpits and

0:38:06.080 --> 0:38:09.239
<v Speaker 1>over the legs, so that the body cannot move as

0:38:09.280 --> 0:38:12.239
<v Speaker 1>soon as the way plank goes down. The head being

0:38:12.280 --> 0:38:16.040
<v Speaker 1>between the bars is supported by a rounded crossbar. The

0:38:16.080 --> 0:38:21.200
<v Speaker 1>executioner's assistance lower another rounded crossbar. The head being thus

0:38:21.320 --> 0:38:24.680
<v Speaker 1>grooved in a perfect circle, which prevents it from moving

0:38:24.719 --> 0:38:28.840
<v Speaker 1>in any way. This precaution is indispensable in regard to

0:38:28.920 --> 0:38:33.560
<v Speaker 1>the terrible inconveniences of fear. The executioner then touches the spring.

0:38:34.040 --> 0:38:36.560
<v Speaker 1>The whole affair is done so quickly that only the

0:38:36.600 --> 0:38:39.360
<v Speaker 1>thump of the blade when it slides down and forms

0:38:39.400 --> 0:38:42.880
<v Speaker 1>the spectators that the culprit is no longer of the living.

0:38:43.400 --> 0:38:45.880
<v Speaker 1>The head falls into a basket full of brand and

0:38:45.920 --> 0:38:49.640
<v Speaker 1>the body is pushed into another wicker basket lined with

0:38:49.880 --> 0:38:54.879
<v Speaker 1>very thick leather. That's a heck of a rating, Robert. Yeah,

0:38:54.920 --> 0:38:56.400
<v Speaker 1>that is going to do a number on my throat.

0:38:56.440 --> 0:39:00.360
<v Speaker 1>But I'm sorry, maybe I should have taken part of it,

0:39:00.400 --> 0:39:03.359
<v Speaker 1>but I was just enjoying listening to your Henri Clement. Well,

0:39:03.360 --> 0:39:06.680
<v Speaker 1>there is a precision in his in his description of

0:39:06.719 --> 0:39:09.640
<v Speaker 1>the act that I felt like I had had to capture.

0:39:09.960 --> 0:39:13.600
<v Speaker 1>Now obviously, so he's described how the device works now,

0:39:13.680 --> 0:39:15.799
<v Speaker 1>but they had to test it out before they could

0:39:15.880 --> 0:39:18.480
<v Speaker 1>make sure to try it on a human right. So

0:39:19.400 --> 0:39:21.080
<v Speaker 1>you know, you always wonder like, how do you test

0:39:21.080 --> 0:39:23.040
<v Speaker 1>a guillotine? You put a watermelon in there? Do you

0:39:23.080 --> 0:39:25.440
<v Speaker 1>gallagher it? Well, I suppose you could, but it's kind

0:39:25.440 --> 0:39:27.719
<v Speaker 1>of a waste of a good melon, and ultimately you

0:39:27.719 --> 0:39:29.160
<v Speaker 1>want to test it on the real thing, right, So

0:39:29.200 --> 0:39:32.440
<v Speaker 1>they use dead bodies. Oh yeah, also farm animals like

0:39:32.480 --> 0:39:34.920
<v Speaker 1>sheep and calves. Yeah, because you just, I mean, it

0:39:34.960 --> 0:39:36.960
<v Speaker 1>makes sense. You want to make sure you're cutting through

0:39:37.160 --> 0:39:42.239
<v Speaker 1>actual vertebrate tissue there and most notably the neck. And

0:39:42.280 --> 0:39:47.520
<v Speaker 1>then on a officials installed and use the guillotine for

0:39:47.560 --> 0:39:50.000
<v Speaker 1>the first time. Right, So the first victim of the

0:39:50.000 --> 0:39:53.759
<v Speaker 1>French guillotine was Nicholas Jacques Beltier who was a highwayman,

0:39:54.320 --> 0:39:57.359
<v Speaker 1>and he was executed where the machine was erected at

0:39:57.400 --> 0:40:00.960
<v Speaker 1>the Plasta Grev and they're so large crowd came out

0:40:01.000 --> 0:40:03.960
<v Speaker 1>obviously to witness the first execution by the new machine,

0:40:04.360 --> 0:40:07.359
<v Speaker 1>but it was reported that the crowd was somewhat unimpressed

0:40:07.480 --> 0:40:11.399
<v Speaker 1>and they found the efficiency of the killing less entertaining

0:40:11.840 --> 0:40:14.399
<v Speaker 1>than the forms of execution they were used to, even

0:40:14.440 --> 0:40:18.440
<v Speaker 1>the more classic beheadings. Nevertheless, over time, the executions that

0:40:18.520 --> 0:40:22.080
<v Speaker 1>the guillotine became a very popular spectator event during the

0:40:22.120 --> 0:40:24.920
<v Speaker 1>Reign of Terror, and you know, in generally afterwards, when

0:40:24.960 --> 0:40:27.360
<v Speaker 1>the guillotine was used, people would show up to watch

0:40:27.880 --> 0:40:30.120
<v Speaker 1>so we see a little success here. Like it was

0:40:30.200 --> 0:40:34.880
<v Speaker 1>clearly less dramatic. Uh, you know, there was less theater

0:40:35.200 --> 0:40:37.279
<v Speaker 1>in the act. And yet at the same time, a

0:40:37.320 --> 0:40:40.200
<v Speaker 1>few things are more dramatic in life than the ending

0:40:40.239 --> 0:40:42.799
<v Speaker 1>of a life like this is the people. You can

0:40:42.880 --> 0:40:45.440
<v Speaker 1>understand why people would still turn out even if you

0:40:45.520 --> 0:40:50.040
<v Speaker 1>had made things a little more precise. Now, putting aside

0:40:50.040 --> 0:40:52.200
<v Speaker 1>the question, I guess what we can talk talk about

0:40:52.200 --> 0:40:54.680
<v Speaker 1>in a minute over whether it's ever humane to just

0:40:55.000 --> 0:41:00.360
<v Speaker 1>execute somebody? Was it actually true that the guillotine was

0:41:00.400 --> 0:41:04.560
<v Speaker 1>a more refined, more humane version of execution than what

0:41:04.680 --> 0:41:07.520
<v Speaker 1>came before? Was it? Was it an improvement if you

0:41:07.560 --> 0:41:11.960
<v Speaker 1>were somebody who was interested in reducing the suffering of humankind. Yeah,

0:41:12.000 --> 0:41:14.480
<v Speaker 1>I mean you could Again, you could say the concept

0:41:14.520 --> 0:41:17.680
<v Speaker 1>is inherently controversial. But still others took issue with just

0:41:17.760 --> 0:41:22.440
<v Speaker 1>how humane it was. So Prussian doctor Samuel Thomas summer Ing,

0:41:23.000 --> 0:41:25.880
<v Speaker 1>who lives seventeen fifty five through eighteen thirty, he studied

0:41:25.880 --> 0:41:28.720
<v Speaker 1>the cadavers of guillotine victims, and he argued that severed

0:41:28.760 --> 0:41:32.040
<v Speaker 1>heads were still capable feeling and since, and he wrote

0:41:32.040 --> 0:41:36.000
<v Speaker 1>an essay on this in seventeen nine. So he he

0:41:36.080 --> 0:41:38.760
<v Speaker 1>was something of a poly math. In addition to naming

0:41:38.760 --> 0:41:42.239
<v Speaker 1>the twelve pairs of cranial nerves, he also invented a

0:41:42.280 --> 0:41:46.480
<v Speaker 1>telegraphic system and made discoveries in paleontology, specifically with the

0:41:46.560 --> 0:41:50.439
<v Speaker 1>pterodactyl fossils. They're not dinosaurs, folks, that's a different thing.

0:41:51.400 --> 0:41:53.600
<v Speaker 1>So this was you know, this was not just it

0:41:53.800 --> 0:41:55.799
<v Speaker 1>wasn't just some crazy guy coming up in Santa The

0:41:55.840 --> 0:41:58.480
<v Speaker 1>heads are still alive, you know, he was he was

0:41:58.560 --> 0:42:02.600
<v Speaker 1>making an an expert argument that like, I'm not sure

0:42:02.640 --> 0:42:04.560
<v Speaker 1>that this is great what we're doing. Maybe it's a

0:42:04.600 --> 0:42:07.359
<v Speaker 1>little it's almost a little too precise. Yeah, The core

0:42:07.440 --> 0:42:10.000
<v Speaker 1>takeaway of his essay on the inhumanity of the guy

0:42:10.040 --> 0:42:12.960
<v Speaker 1>tain was that we can't rule out that it's possible

0:42:12.960 --> 0:42:16.359
<v Speaker 1>that a severed head could still be having experience, could

0:42:16.360 --> 0:42:19.640
<v Speaker 1>experience being severed. Now we know, there were a lot

0:42:19.640 --> 0:42:22.960
<v Speaker 1>of tales of this happening, right of people running to

0:42:23.040 --> 0:42:25.920
<v Speaker 1>check out the heads of the of the decapitated, in

0:42:26.080 --> 0:42:28.880
<v Speaker 1>various doctors checking in and seeing what was going on

0:42:28.960 --> 0:42:30.960
<v Speaker 1>with the eyes. And there was a lot of interest

0:42:31.000 --> 0:42:33.440
<v Speaker 1>in this in determining what, you know, what happens to

0:42:33.520 --> 0:42:36.680
<v Speaker 1>consciousness to add death like this was a perfect clinical

0:42:37.040 --> 0:42:40.800
<v Speaker 1>exercise for for weighing in on it. Yeah, the classic

0:42:40.840 --> 0:42:43.440
<v Speaker 1>tales about this, they get repeated the most often are

0:42:43.520 --> 0:42:48.640
<v Speaker 1>like seeing someone's cheeks flush with anger when they behold someone,

0:42:48.920 --> 0:42:51.239
<v Speaker 1>or who's someone who mocks them or something like that,

0:42:51.480 --> 0:42:54.720
<v Speaker 1>or or who slaps them in the face, or thinking

0:42:54.840 --> 0:42:58.440
<v Speaker 1>that that a severed head would be like looking at

0:42:58.440 --> 0:43:02.439
<v Speaker 1>people as if it recognize is to them, something like that. Yeah,

0:43:02.480 --> 0:43:04.520
<v Speaker 1>and obviously there's a lot of inbellishment with these stories,

0:43:04.560 --> 0:43:06.440
<v Speaker 1>but we don't know how much to trust them. Yeah,

0:43:06.480 --> 0:43:07.799
<v Speaker 1>we really don't know how much to trust them. But

0:43:07.840 --> 0:43:11.600
<v Speaker 1>we do know today that that any kind of activity

0:43:11.719 --> 0:43:14.640
<v Speaker 1>seen in the heads after death, most of this is

0:43:14.640 --> 0:43:19.600
<v Speaker 1>going to be reflective twitching of muscles. So um, basically,

0:43:20.400 --> 0:43:23.839
<v Speaker 1>coma and brain death are probably gonna occur within two

0:43:23.880 --> 0:43:28.000
<v Speaker 1>to three seconds of decapitation due to interruption of blood

0:43:28.000 --> 0:43:30.920
<v Speaker 1>flow to the brain. So just the massive sudden drop

0:43:30.960 --> 0:43:34.680
<v Speaker 1>in blood pressure, Yeah, that's gonna do it. So any

0:43:34.680 --> 0:43:38.080
<v Speaker 1>tales of like, you know, confronting the head having any

0:43:38.120 --> 0:43:41.640
<v Speaker 1>kind of like moment of human uh contact, even if

0:43:41.640 --> 0:43:44.279
<v Speaker 1>it's just in the eyes, Uh, it's pretty clear that

0:43:44.280 --> 0:43:48.360
<v Speaker 1>that is all just embellishment of stories or just wishful

0:43:48.440 --> 0:43:51.120
<v Speaker 1>thinking on the part of the observer. So what is

0:43:51.200 --> 0:43:55.360
<v Speaker 1>the legacy of this machine, this this machine of bureaucratic violence.

0:43:55.400 --> 0:43:57.600
<v Speaker 1>And if we try to look at it from with

0:43:57.680 --> 0:44:00.480
<v Speaker 1>our perspective, from today, with our hindsight, and you know,

0:44:00.560 --> 0:44:02.680
<v Speaker 1>with with the kind of value judgments we would make,

0:44:02.800 --> 0:44:05.920
<v Speaker 1>was the guillotine a step forward or a step backward?

0:44:06.080 --> 0:44:11.200
<v Speaker 1>Was it as uh guillotan envisioned a more humane way

0:44:11.239 --> 0:44:13.799
<v Speaker 1>of doing business when the state was just you know,

0:44:13.880 --> 0:44:17.160
<v Speaker 1>couldn't be convinced not to kill people. Or did it

0:44:17.600 --> 0:44:21.160
<v Speaker 1>perhaps enable a worse state of affairs where more people

0:44:21.200 --> 0:44:24.000
<v Speaker 1>could be sent to their deaths with impunity than would

0:44:24.000 --> 0:44:26.319
<v Speaker 1>have been the case otherwise. Yeah, I think you could

0:44:26.360 --> 0:44:28.480
<v Speaker 1>probably go either way on it. I mean, one thing

0:44:28.520 --> 0:44:30.600
<v Speaker 1>is for certain. It it changed the way executions were

0:44:30.600 --> 0:44:33.640
<v Speaker 1>performed in France for nearly two hundred years. It was

0:44:33.760 --> 0:44:36.759
<v Speaker 1>actually used in France up until nineteen seventy seven, that's

0:44:36.760 --> 0:44:40.560
<v Speaker 1>when the last execution occurred via guillotine, before the outlying

0:44:40.560 --> 0:44:44.759
<v Speaker 1>of capital punishment in one It also took on symbolic way.

0:44:44.760 --> 0:44:47.200
<v Speaker 1>It's just this this symbol of the reign of terror

0:44:47.200 --> 0:44:50.680
<v Speaker 1>and perhaps to a larger extent a symbol of systematically

0:44:50.760 --> 0:44:54.480
<v Speaker 1>violent rebellion. Yeah, I read one author point out, certainly

0:44:54.520 --> 0:44:57.360
<v Speaker 1>not in defending the guillotine or the use of the guillotine,

0:44:57.360 --> 0:44:59.760
<v Speaker 1>but it just pointing out a kind of strange irony

0:44:59.800 --> 0:45:04.359
<v Speaker 1>that the guillotine now to us symbolizes this this horror,

0:45:04.360 --> 0:45:08.200
<v Speaker 1>this horror period of bureaucratic violence, which it certainly was.

0:45:08.640 --> 0:45:10.040
<v Speaker 1>But we look at that and we think of that

0:45:10.120 --> 0:45:12.840
<v Speaker 1>period as a reign of terror. But don't think the

0:45:12.880 --> 0:45:16.160
<v Speaker 1>same way say about the Napoleonic Wars, which killed far

0:45:16.320 --> 0:45:19.080
<v Speaker 1>more people than the guillotine ever did. Not that that

0:45:19.120 --> 0:45:22.200
<v Speaker 1>makes the killings of the guillotine any less horrific. That's true. Now,

0:45:22.440 --> 0:45:24.839
<v Speaker 1>you know, one the one thing about the weirdness of

0:45:24.840 --> 0:45:27.640
<v Speaker 1>this whole situation that stands out. I mean, aside from

0:45:27.680 --> 0:45:31.440
<v Speaker 1>just the inherently weird nature of of a beheading machine

0:45:31.680 --> 0:45:34.880
<v Speaker 1>machine that cuts off heads, there is still something highly

0:45:34.920 --> 0:45:37.920
<v Speaker 1>symbolic going on here. I think to the means of

0:45:37.920 --> 0:45:41.680
<v Speaker 1>an execution, and you'll typically see an expression of of

0:45:41.840 --> 0:45:45.759
<v Speaker 1>power involved, say it's a physical strength, or you know,

0:45:45.920 --> 0:45:51.640
<v Speaker 1>vengeful spirit or increasingly a culture's greatest technological achievements. Isn't

0:45:51.640 --> 0:45:54.960
<v Speaker 1>it weird? To think about how these methods climbed the

0:45:55.000 --> 0:45:59.000
<v Speaker 1>tree of developing technology. So starting with varying levels of

0:45:59.000 --> 0:46:03.800
<v Speaker 1>tool proficiency, you know, axes and swords, weapons, weapon crafting,

0:46:04.040 --> 0:46:08.800
<v Speaker 1>then we go into gunpowder, uh, you know, firing squads, electricity,

0:46:08.800 --> 0:46:11.560
<v Speaker 1>and the electric chair. It is weird to trace through

0:46:11.600 --> 0:46:15.160
<v Speaker 1>history execution methods just sort of like tracking with whatever

0:46:15.280 --> 0:46:20.080
<v Speaker 1>is the most interesting new technology we have available. Yeah, chemicals, pharmaceuticals.

0:46:20.120 --> 0:46:23.439
<v Speaker 1>I mean, why an electric chair. That is just such

0:46:23.480 --> 0:46:28.200
<v Speaker 1>a strange idea to even come up with. H French

0:46:28.200 --> 0:46:32.440
<v Speaker 1>philosopher Michelle Fuco he weighed in on this, and he

0:46:32.520 --> 0:46:36.240
<v Speaker 1>pointed out that penal technology is of course an expression

0:46:36.280 --> 0:46:38.120
<v Speaker 1>of power, but we also have to dwell on the

0:46:38.160 --> 0:46:43.280
<v Speaker 1>fact that it does this through everyday technology, ubiquitous technology.

0:46:43.520 --> 0:46:46.319
<v Speaker 1>So if it's something like electricity or even you know

0:46:46.440 --> 0:46:50.200
<v Speaker 1>or even you know, pharmaceuticals, chemicals, Uh, it's it's taking

0:46:51.320 --> 0:46:56.160
<v Speaker 1>aspects of everyday life and turning them into the the system,

0:46:56.239 --> 0:46:59.920
<v Speaker 1>the tool of of justice. So like our everyday use

0:47:00.040 --> 0:47:03.840
<v Speaker 1>of energy and the consumer economy, a constant reminder of

0:47:03.920 --> 0:47:06.600
<v Speaker 1>the methods of death that the state can inflict upon

0:47:06.719 --> 0:47:10.600
<v Speaker 1>people if they if they don't stay in line exactly. Now,

0:47:10.680 --> 0:47:13.440
<v Speaker 1>a one small area of the legacy of the guillotine

0:47:13.440 --> 0:47:16.640
<v Speaker 1>comes down to its use in medical terminology. So there

0:47:16.640 --> 0:47:19.920
<v Speaker 1>are two primary means of amputation, um in terms of

0:47:19.920 --> 0:47:22.400
<v Speaker 1>like amputating a limb or what have you. You have

0:47:22.480 --> 0:47:25.680
<v Speaker 1>flap amputations in which flaps of flesh are left so

0:47:25.719 --> 0:47:29.239
<v Speaker 1>that you can fold them and close the stump of

0:47:29.320 --> 0:47:32.319
<v Speaker 1>the wound. And then there are guillotine amputations, which which

0:47:32.360 --> 0:47:34.520
<v Speaker 1>are more of a straight down affair with no immediate

0:47:34.560 --> 0:47:39.600
<v Speaker 1>concerns for flap tissue. So in guillotine amputation, it's more

0:47:39.600 --> 0:47:42.480
<v Speaker 1>about cutting out infected tissue and making sure drainage of

0:47:42.600 --> 0:47:46.719
<v Speaker 1>proper drainage occurs, and then secondary surgery is performed to

0:47:46.800 --> 0:47:49.760
<v Speaker 1>create the flap tissue to close everything off into a stump.

0:47:50.000 --> 0:47:53.200
<v Speaker 1>But obviously that's like a secondary appellation, like you wouldn't

0:47:53.360 --> 0:47:56.759
<v Speaker 1>you wouldn't have called that guillotine cutting in the surgical

0:47:56.800 --> 0:47:59.200
<v Speaker 1>since before the guillotine, right, But it is certainly an

0:47:59.239 --> 0:48:03.279
<v Speaker 1>example where if you're you, you encounter this terminology now

0:48:03.440 --> 0:48:07.200
<v Speaker 1>and in the medical science, and uh, and it stems

0:48:07.239 --> 0:48:09.879
<v Speaker 1>from the use of this execution device. That being said,

0:48:09.880 --> 0:48:13.200
<v Speaker 1>there's a lot of medical terminology that stems from various

0:48:13.280 --> 0:48:16.759
<v Speaker 1>weapons and so forth. Of course, so I want to

0:48:16.760 --> 0:48:19.240
<v Speaker 1>come back to this question that we've been teasing throughout

0:48:19.400 --> 0:48:24.040
<v Speaker 1>where you can't help but wonder if Joseph Eskaton pushed

0:48:24.160 --> 0:48:27.680
<v Speaker 1>us in exactly the wrong direction, if he was actually

0:48:28.160 --> 0:48:32.000
<v Speaker 1>against the death penalty and trying to institute more humane

0:48:32.000 --> 0:48:36.560
<v Speaker 1>treatment of criminals. You know, it's hard not to notice

0:48:36.600 --> 0:48:40.759
<v Speaker 1>that by sanitizing a horrible act, it often seems like

0:48:40.840 --> 0:48:44.560
<v Speaker 1>you make the act easier to carry out. And I

0:48:44.560 --> 0:48:47.320
<v Speaker 1>mean just think about how this applies to modern methods

0:48:47.320 --> 0:48:51.320
<v Speaker 1>of state sanctioned killing, everything from lethal injection to drone strikes.

0:48:51.719 --> 0:48:58.279
<v Speaker 1>Does the sanitizing and distancing and depersonalization opportunity provided by

0:48:58.400 --> 0:49:03.080
<v Speaker 1>lethal technology in encourage us to make ourselves able to

0:49:03.200 --> 0:49:08.000
<v Speaker 1>kill more while feeling less about it? Yeah? I mean, ultimately,

0:49:08.320 --> 0:49:12.320
<v Speaker 1>is the the botched at execution that we've discussed already,

0:49:12.480 --> 0:49:15.880
<v Speaker 1>Are those not maybe a more honest depiction of what's

0:49:15.880 --> 0:49:21.160
<v Speaker 1>going on? This this this fallible, um barbaric human effort,

0:49:21.360 --> 0:49:25.560
<v Speaker 1>not this uh precision of the holy blameless machine. Well,

0:49:25.600 --> 0:49:27.680
<v Speaker 1>I mean, obviously we're not going to sit here and

0:49:27.719 --> 0:49:31.640
<v Speaker 1>advocate brutal botched executions with jack ketch hacking at us

0:49:31.719 --> 0:49:35.000
<v Speaker 1>with a sword or an axe. But yeah, at least

0:49:35.040 --> 0:49:37.920
<v Speaker 1>with that, I'm not saying that's preferable, but I do

0:49:37.960 --> 0:49:40.319
<v Speaker 1>see what you're saying that it's at least there, you're

0:49:40.360 --> 0:49:43.839
<v Speaker 1>acknowledging that something brutal and weird is going on, and

0:49:43.880 --> 0:49:46.120
<v Speaker 1>you can't just you know, clean it up in your

0:49:46.160 --> 0:49:49.160
<v Speaker 1>mind and ignore it because you're hearing the screams and

0:49:49.200 --> 0:49:52.319
<v Speaker 1>it's splattering on you, and it's so brutal that it's

0:49:52.320 --> 0:49:55.239
<v Speaker 1>almost funny. You know. It's interesting. You know, in this

0:49:55.280 --> 0:49:58.600
<v Speaker 1>show we talk about innovation and inventions and how how

0:49:58.640 --> 0:50:02.200
<v Speaker 1>they change the world, and and so often you see

0:50:02.239 --> 0:50:04.640
<v Speaker 1>that that people have to look back and try to

0:50:04.719 --> 0:50:08.319
<v Speaker 1>figure out what changed and how it changed us. Uh,

0:50:08.320 --> 0:50:11.560
<v Speaker 1>And here we are, hundreds of years later, looking back

0:50:11.600 --> 0:50:14.520
<v Speaker 1>and saying, well, what did the guillotine mean? What did

0:50:14.560 --> 0:50:20.319
<v Speaker 1>it do? And what are the ultimate ramifications of this advancement. Well,

0:50:20.360 --> 0:50:23.680
<v Speaker 1>I posit that maybe one takeaway from it is that

0:50:24.080 --> 0:50:26.680
<v Speaker 1>the truth is it has showed us that there is

0:50:26.719 --> 0:50:30.640
<v Speaker 1>no good or clean or sanitary way to kill a person,

0:50:31.280 --> 0:50:34.080
<v Speaker 1>and any belief that there is, in fact turns out

0:50:34.120 --> 0:50:38.359
<v Speaker 1>to be a kind of brutalizing and dehumanizing illusion. All right,

0:50:38.400 --> 0:50:41.040
<v Speaker 1>So that's it for this week's episode of Invention. If

0:50:41.080 --> 0:50:42.560
<v Speaker 1>you want to learn more about the show and check

0:50:42.600 --> 0:50:46.120
<v Speaker 1>out other episodes, head on over to our website invention

0:50:46.280 --> 0:50:50.480
<v Speaker 1>pod dot com. Big thanks to Scott Benjamin for research

0:50:50.520 --> 0:50:54.360
<v Speaker 1>assistance with this episode, thanks to our audio producer Tari Harrison.

0:50:54.600 --> 0:50:56.319
<v Speaker 1>If you would like to get in touch with us

0:50:56.440 --> 0:50:59.200
<v Speaker 1>directly with feedback on this episode or any other, to

0:50:59.239 --> 0:51:01.799
<v Speaker 1>suggest the top for the future, or just to say hi,

0:51:01.960 --> 0:51:03.640
<v Speaker 1>let us know how you found out about the show

0:51:04.400 --> 0:51:06.440
<v Speaker 1>where you listen from all that kind of stuff, you

0:51:06.440 --> 0:51:28.000
<v Speaker 1>can email us at contact at invention pod dot com.