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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: The beloved Oscar winning actor Gene Hackman and his devoted

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Speaker 2: wife Betsy Aracoa found dead and Hackman's home in the

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Speaker 2: last days. A huge twist in the Gene Hackman mystery

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Speaker 2: as police release his wife Betsy's cell phone data.

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Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for

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Speaker 1: being with us.

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Speaker 2: New cell phone data calls into question when exactly Gene

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Speaker 2: Hackman's wife Betsy died. The sound off a medical examiner

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Speaker 2: claimed to post mortem showed she died of hintovirus. That's

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Speaker 2: a rare rat born respiratory illness, probably caused by exposure to.

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Speaker 1: Wood mice around Feb eleven, a full week.

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Speaker 2: Before her Oscar winning husband, Gene Hackman died of heart

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Speaker 2: failure combined with Alzheimer's. But now and a bizarre twist,

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Speaker 2: police confirm Betsy made multiple phone calls on Feb twelve,

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Speaker 2: at least a full day after she was believed to

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Speaker 2: have died. What does that mean to the investigation. Let's

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Speaker 2: back it up and take it from the beginning to.

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Speaker 3: Get used to foul to a one person inside a house.

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Speaker 2: But at this hour, according to law enforcement, the death

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Speaker 2: of Gene Hackman, his wife and dog.

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Speaker 1: Suspicious what happened to the oscar winner.

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Speaker 2: Let's go to that nine to one one call listening.

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Speaker 3: Hello, I've seen us found to a one decease person

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Speaker 3: at the house, but there's no address. I'm gonna wait

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Speaker 3: for you at the gate. I'm gonna wait for you

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Speaker 3: to please, and somebody's really quick? Are you with a patient?

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Speaker 4: Now?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm over their property. There's no address here, so

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Speaker 3: I have to meet the denialist or the police whoever

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Speaker 3: down at the gatehouse. I'll bring them up here.

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Speaker 2: Curiously, hasn't a seed to say two dead bodies, but

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Speaker 2: that could be easily explained with an innocent explanation that

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Speaker 2: the viewer could only see part of the second dead body.

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Speaker 1: Let's listen to more a female.

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Speaker 3: And a male probably, I don't know. I don't know

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Speaker 3: if I's just send somebody up here real quick.

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Speaker 5: Okay?

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Speaker 3: Are they awake? I have no idea?

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Speaker 5: Are they breathing? I have no idea.

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Speaker 3: I'm not inside the house. It's closed. It's a lot.

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Speaker 3: I go in, but I see the ladies laying down

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Speaker 3: on a blocker from the window. They appear to be

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Speaker 3: completely awake. Eactly do they appear to be awake or alerts? No? No, no, no,

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Speaker 3: no noise not.

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Speaker 5: Okay, okay do you ever hear do you hear this

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Speaker 5: talk or cry?

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Speaker 3: No? No, okay, okay?

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Speaker 4: Are they moving at all?

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Speaker 3: No, dude, they're not moving. Just sing somebody out here

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Speaker 3: really quick.

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Speaker 2: Dude, nine only one dispatchers ever bother you because the

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Speaker 2: call has already said they're two dead people, and the

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Speaker 2: nine only one dispatch says, do they appear to be

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Speaker 2: completely awake?

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Speaker 1: Do they appear to be awake or alert? Did you

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Speaker 1: hear them talk or cry? Are they moving?

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Speaker 6: No?

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Speaker 1: They're dead.

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Speaker 2: We are talking about an oscar winner, Gene Hagman, his.

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Speaker 1: Wife and their dog.

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Speaker 2: Now, how can that all be explained away innocently at

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Speaker 2: this hour? As we go to air law enforcement saving

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Speaker 2: the deaths are quote suspicious? Joining me Jessica Fancy, an

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Speaker 2: investigative reporter at the US Son.

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Speaker 1: Jessica, thank you for being with us. Let's just start

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Speaker 1: at the beginning.

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Speaker 2: How the body of Gene Hackman and his wife and

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Speaker 2: his dog.

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Speaker 1: Were found.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, really wild scene in Santa Fe. You find the

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Speaker 7: maintenance worker calling nine one one, and he is very

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Speaker 7: frantic and What's something people don't realize was that there

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Speaker 7: were actually two different nine one one calls. The first one,

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Speaker 7: it's a dial to nine one one. The dispatcher picks

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Speaker 7: up and he says Hello, Hello, nine one one Hello,

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Speaker 7: and you hear the dog sparking the background. You hear

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Speaker 7: a man's voice talking, and it just is this very

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Speaker 7: chaotic scene. And then this guy hangs up the phone,

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Speaker 7: and then the nine one one dispatcher tries to call

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Speaker 7: him back again and tries to get the guy back

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Speaker 7: on the phone, and then there's a second phone call

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Speaker 7: to nine one one, So it just paints this really

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Speaker 7: really hectic picture of what's going on. You hear again

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Speaker 7: the two living dogs in the background, presumably the hackman's dogs,

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Speaker 7: and you hear this maintenance worker just very upset distressed.

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Speaker 7: He's trying to tell the nine on one dispatcher that

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Speaker 7: there are two dead people in the house, and nine

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Speaker 7: one one is asking the series of questions about are

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Speaker 7: they breathing like you said, are they talking? And it's

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Speaker 7: this really strange inquiry from the nine one dispatcher. And

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Speaker 7: one of the other interesting things that the maintenance worker

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Speaker 7: says is, you know, as we know The Hackmans were

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Speaker 7: very private people. There were no security cameras at the house.

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Speaker 7: They were extremely extremely private, and he says to the dispatcher,

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Speaker 7: there's not an address for the house, and there's a

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Speaker 7: reason for that, pointing to how private these two people

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Speaker 7: were and how much they protected their celebrity status and

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Speaker 7: really kind of wanted to make sure that people couldn't

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Speaker 7: track them down and kind.

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Speaker 5: Of were off the grid, so to speak.

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Speaker 2: This is more of what we're learning from the sea.

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Speaker 2: We're Oscar winner, Jane Hagman, wife and dog all found dead.

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Speaker 8: Listen deputies arrived and gain access to the residents, where

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Speaker 8: they observed missus Aracowa deceased. They continue the search of

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Speaker 8: their home and located mister Hackman in a separate area

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Speaker 8: of the residence, also deceased. A German shepherd was also

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Speaker 8: found deceased, and two other dogs who appeared healthy were

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Speaker 8: located on the property.

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Speaker 9: Responding officers find the front door in the glass entry

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Speaker 9: way of Hackman's two story, green colored stuck a home

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Speaker 9: opened a jar just a bit, but there did not

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Speaker 9: appear to be any signs of forced entry. The garage

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Speaker 9: connected to the three point eight million dollar home appeared

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Speaker 9: to be locked, and nothing appeared to be out of place.

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Speaker 2: The garage locked, the door ajar, nothing stolen, nothing ransacked,

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Speaker 2: nothing rummaged through, no items taken, Everything appeared in place.

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Speaker 1: What does it mean? I know at least.

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Speaker 2: One expert has focused on the dog for good reason,

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Speaker 2: joining me forensic expert, director and founder of the Cold

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Speaker 2: Case Investigative Research Institute and star of its own seven podcasts,

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Speaker 2: Cheryl McCollum.

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Speaker 1: What about it?

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Speaker 4: I would focus on the dog because you're going to

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Speaker 4: see the pattern of what the Hackmans did. Did they

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Speaker 4: put the dog in the crate in the morning or

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Speaker 4: the evening? That would give you a timetable to start

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Speaker 4: from those patterns. Those habits are really important. The other

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Speaker 4: thing for me is if you talk about a net

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Speaker 4: cropcy for the dog or testing for the animal, that's

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Speaker 4: going to come back quicker than it will for the Hackmans.

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Speaker 4: We may not know for sure for months what may

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Speaker 4: or may not have happened to them, but with that

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Speaker 4: animal we would know much quicker. So my focus would

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Speaker 4: be on the habit. Why do you say that, Cheryl,

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Speaker 4: Because you're not going to have that many You're going

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Speaker 4: to have many more people that have to have an

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Speaker 4: autopsy than an animal that is killed in a situation

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Speaker 4: or died of natural causes or poison. So those tests

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Speaker 4: are going to be able to tell us much much

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Speaker 4: quicker what might have occurred in at home.

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Speaker 2: So you were saying the reason we would get the

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Speaker 2: results back on the dog more quickly the German shepherd

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Speaker 2: is because there's no line. There's not a long line

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Speaker 2: of gerbils and hamsters and guinea pigs and birds and

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Speaker 2: cats and dogs waiting for an autopsy. Is that your

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Speaker 2: reason for saying that the dog autopsy will come back quicker?

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Speaker 5: Correct? Got it?

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Speaker 1: Got it?

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Speaker 2: Joining me to follow up on that is renowned medical examiner, toxicologist, pathologist,

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Speaker 2: opioid treatment expert, and author of American Narcan doctor William Moroney.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Moroney, thank you for being with us and taking

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Speaker 2: your time away from what you do every day for

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Speaker 2: all of us, Doctor Moroney. With the door ajar, would

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Speaker 2: that rule out carbon monoxide.

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Speaker 5: In any normal case? The answer is yes, because carbon

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Speaker 5: monoxide has to concentrate, can't concentrate with the door.

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Speaker 2: OPENRONI, what would be found typically when bodies when someone

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Speaker 2: dies of carbon monoxide?

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Speaker 1: And then I want to follow up with you with

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Speaker 1: the fact that.

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Speaker 2: Both Hackman and his wife were mummified to a degree.

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Speaker 5: But first, the carbon monoxide. Well, in carbon monoxide, the

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Speaker 5: skin is bright red. Now, that may be complicated because

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Speaker 5: they were mummified, but the appearance of the skin and

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Speaker 5: the color of the deceased is the take home point.

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Speaker 5: And the fire department does not enter a building without

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Speaker 5: running a carbon monoxide meter, so they would know that

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Speaker 5: because when they enter then they would have to use

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Speaker 5: a self contained breathing apparatus. So that's the carbon monote Well.

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Speaker 2: You're going so fast out to maroney for regular lay

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Speaker 2: people like myself. First of all, why with the victim's face.

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Speaker 2: The victim's face be red due to carbon monoxide poisoning,

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Speaker 2: that's a sure fire giveaway.

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Speaker 5: But why because the chemistry of carbon monoxide versus the

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Speaker 5: chemistry of hemoglobin. It's how things work. Hemoglobin allows you

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Speaker 5: to transfer oxygen back and forth carbon monoxide. It's just

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Speaker 5: the color of blood with carbon monoxide in the skin.

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Speaker 5: It doesn't change. And the carbon monoxide molecule permanently sits

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Speaker 5: in the receptor site on the hemoglobin, whereas oxygen moves

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Speaker 5: on and off easily. It's always a red color because

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Speaker 5: that's the chemistry of carbon monoxide.

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Speaker 2: A new cell phone data trail throws a rent into

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Speaker 2: the investigation to the death of Gene Hackman and his

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Speaker 2: beloved wife Betsy. She Betsy called Cloudberry Health, a local

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Speaker 2: concierg's medical practice, seeking medical treatment three times on February twelfth,

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Speaker 2: well after the medical examiner says she was dead. A

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Speaker 2: fourth call was also made to Arakawa.

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Speaker 1: From the clinic. We're learning this from the BBC.

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Speaker 2: The clinic told BBC she never received the care she

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Speaker 2: was seeking, and we know she died. We also now

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Speaker 2: know Betsy communicated with a massage therapist on email, went

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Speaker 2: to the grocery store, a pharmacy, and a pet store.

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Speaker 2: She made it back home around five point fifteen that day,

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Speaker 2: and this is according to the family's garage clicker data. Yes,

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Speaker 2: that has tracking data as well. We also have learned

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Speaker 2: that a doctor, doctor Josiah Child, claims that Betsy called

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Speaker 2: and described congestion. She didn't describe any respiratory distress, shortness

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Speaker 2: of breath, or chest pain, all symptoms of the hint

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Speaker 2: of virus. So we know now she did not die

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Speaker 2: on fab eleven because she called the clinic Feb.

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Speaker 1: Twelve interesting.

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Speaker 2: She also called a couple of weeks before her death

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Speaker 2: about getting an echo an echo cardiogram heart scan for

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Speaker 2: her husband. What, if anything, does it mean to the investigation.

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Speaker 2: We don't know now, but this is what we do know.

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Speaker 1: Listen.

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Speaker 9: Walking in the front door, officers see a bathroom to

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Speaker 9: the left of the front door, Betsy lying on her

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Speaker 9: right side dead. She is wearing dark gray sweatpants and

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Speaker 9: a light colored sweatshirt. Next to the body is a

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Speaker 9: black space heater near her head, but the report doesn't

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Speaker 9: say if it was on. An open orange prescription bottle

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Speaker 9: with pills scattered on the countertop. There are obvious signs

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Speaker 9: of death, body decomposition, bloating in her face, and mummification

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Speaker 9: in both hands and feet. As deputies continued, they see

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Speaker 9: feet and legs near the kitchen area. Jeene Hackman is

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Speaker 9: found dead in the mudroom, wearing gray sweatpants, a blue

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Speaker 9: long sleeved t shirt, brown slippers, has a walking cane

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Speaker 9: and a pair of sunglasses. Hackman also showed obvious signs

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Speaker 9: of death too.

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Speaker 2: Jessica Fann joining US investigative reporter with the US Sun.

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Speaker 2: We're both bodies partially mummified.

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Speaker 1: And are we sure that door was a jar?

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Speaker 7: Yeah, so both both bodies were absolutely partially mummified. Really

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Speaker 7: gruesome scene that police ended up coming upon at the house.

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Speaker 7: At the residence, and you know, we from what we understand,

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Speaker 7: the back door was a jar. It seems like it

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Speaker 7: could have potentially police theorized been a jar to allow

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Speaker 7: the dogs to come in and out of the residence freely.

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Speaker 7: We don't know that for sure. There's different reports about

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Speaker 7: the front door. The maintenance worker initially says in his

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Speaker 7: nine one one call that the front door is locked.

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Speaker 7: When the police get there, the police say that the

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Speaker 7: front door was not locked. So we don't know exactly

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Speaker 7: the situation with the front door, but we do know

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Speaker 7: that the back door absolutely was not only unlocked, but

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Speaker 7: it was open and dogs seemed to be coming in

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Speaker 7: and out of the home freely.

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Speaker 2: Very very curious, And I'm going to follow up in

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Speaker 2: a moment with Cheryl McCollum regarding that door ajar. We've

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Speaker 2: seen that before when pets were involved. Okay, to doctor

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Speaker 2: William Maroney, A lot to break down right there, Doctor Moroney,

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Speaker 2: First of all, mummification, what is it now we believe

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Speaker 2: and I'll get into this too. There's just so much,

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Speaker 2: so many scientific evidence. Is what it's called in the

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Speaker 2: law regarding for instance, the pacemaker, how long had it

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Speaker 2: not been working? And what does that mean? There's a

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Speaker 2: lot to do with this pacemaker. What I'm getting at,

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Speaker 2: Maroney is a timeline. Can you talk to me about

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Speaker 2: what is mummification and how would that happen that quickly?

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Speaker 2: I mean I would expect if they had been dead

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Speaker 2: nine days as we are told based on a lot

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Speaker 2: of different times, circumstantial evidence, extrinsic evidence. I'm very surprised

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Speaker 2: their bodies aren't in decop as opposed.

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Speaker 5: To there's two words that lead us to understand mummification

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Speaker 5: New Mexico. This is totally different than a body dying

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Speaker 5: in Iowa, Connecticut or Wyoming. Bodies desiccate in these kind

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Speaker 5: of environments much faster.

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Speaker 2: And is that do I have to tell you again?

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Speaker 2: Doctr Moroney desicate?

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Speaker 5: I'll try to down.

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Speaker 2: I'll speak rhyme, thank you, yes, and I will take

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Speaker 2: that not in a bad way, dummy down for me.

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Speaker 5: It's look in any other environment. Mummification is a general

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Speaker 5: principle that follows nobody goes to the bloating, the bloating

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Speaker 5: around the face, the bloating around the center chest and

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Speaker 5: the torso. Limbs mummifi faster limbs don't usually bloat up

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Speaker 5: with gas. I see it all the time on scenes

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Speaker 5: mummification if somebody's been down a week. But New Mexico,

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Speaker 5: those are the key words. Is why this went through

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Speaker 5: mummification so fast. Air condition, outdoors, whatever the conditions are

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Speaker 5: New Mexico mummification. Drying is really a big part of this.

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Speaker 2: So you're saying mummification what happened much more quickly in

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Speaker 2: New Mexico as opposed to let's just say Manhattan bingo. Yes,

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Speaker 2: because of the dry air and the temperature. Correct correct, Okay,

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Speaker 2: doctor moroney. How can there be bloating and mummification?

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Speaker 5: Okay, because the bloating comes from gas. There's gas. There's

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Speaker 5: bacteria in your body, in your bowels, in your stomach,

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Speaker 5: in your lungs. There's a normal, healthy group of bacteria

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Speaker 5: that lives in you. And as soon as you stop dying,

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Speaker 5: the life cycle of that bacteria is unopposed and it

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Speaker 5: gives off gas. Ordinarily, you swallow them and they pass

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Speaker 5: in your stool, you cough, you blow them out of

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Speaker 5: your nose. Bacteria is a very important part of the body,

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Speaker 5: and when the body no longer can cleanse itself or

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Speaker 5: reestablish fresh new young bacteria, old bacteria and decay cause

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Speaker 5: the body to bloat. These are very specific gases related

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Speaker 5: to decomposition. But the process of bloating is very very common.

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Speaker 5: It's just that you bloat and you dry in different

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Speaker 5: places at different times, and arms and legs are where

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Speaker 5: you mummify. First, nobody said anything about maggots. That's very

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Speaker 5: interesting because blowflies and maggots would allow you more time

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Speaker 5: to actually stage when they died. Nobody's talking about maggots.

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Speaker 5: That's very interesting. That says to me that the house

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Speaker 5: was sealed and it wasn't as open because flies come

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Speaker 5: in anywhere, and when they plant their eggs, they plant

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Speaker 5: them in the eyes, they plant them in the nose,

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Speaker 5: they plant them in the mouth, and they go to

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Speaker 5: other body parts like the rectum, and they multiply as maggots.

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Speaker 5: Nobody's talking about maggots. That's really important here too.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Maroney. I need to understand what you're saying.

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Speaker 2: It is forensic etymology, the study of bugs, insects as

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Speaker 2: it relates to crime, specifically dead bodies.

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Speaker 1: So let me understand, doctor Moroney.

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Speaker 2: For maggots to appear on a dead body, that body

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Speaker 2: must be exposed in some way.

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Speaker 1: To the outdoors. So the outdoor, the fly has.

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Speaker 2: To come in, yes, to the residents, to get to

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Speaker 2: the body right right, okay, And even if there are

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Speaker 2: no flies in the area, as soon as the body

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Speaker 2: as someone dies.

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Speaker 1: They come.

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Speaker 2: I don't know that, I'm not an etymologist, but they

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Speaker 2: show up in all sorts of weather conditions.

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Speaker 1: So you're saying, this is really interesting.

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Speaker 2: Many people believe that with a dead body magots just

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Speaker 2: originate from the body.

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Speaker 1: That's not true. The fly has to the insect.

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Speaker 2: The adult insect has to appear and then lay eggs,

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Speaker 2: hence maggots. And you're saying, because there were none, that

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Speaker 2: door must not have been a jar the entire time.

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Speaker 5: Field. Yes, And I think it's it's key that they

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Speaker 5: don't talk about maggots. In any other case where anybody

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Speaker 5: dies outdoors, you always bring in a forensic entomologist and

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Speaker 5: the MAGGI help you apply a timeline. Maggots are on

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Speaker 5: the body the first hour it dies, outdoors. So if

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Speaker 5: you don't have any maggots at all, then there were

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Speaker 5: never any openings for windows or doors the whole time

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Speaker 5: this was going on, and the mummification comes from the

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Speaker 5: air conditioning.

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Speaker 9: Hagmann's daughter, Leslie tells reporters that she hadn't seen her

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Speaker 9: father or stepmother in a few months since she lives

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Speaker 9: in California. As far as talking to her dad, she

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Speaker 9: said it had also been a couple of months, but

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Speaker 9: she adds they were closed. She says everything seemed normal

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Speaker 9: and good. Her father was in good shape, doing pilates

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Speaker 9: and yoga multiple times a week.

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Speaker 5: For alert. I have no idea.

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Speaker 3: I'm not inside the house. Its closed as long as

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Speaker 3: I can't go in. But I see that maybe she's

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Speaker 3: laying down a blow from the windows. Okay, I'll femail

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Speaker 3: and email probably, I don't know. I don't know if

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Speaker 3: hers been somebody up both.

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Speaker 1: What do we know about the death of Gene Hackman,

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Speaker 1: his wife and dog.

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Speaker 2: At this hour, law enforcement still saying that the deaths

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Speaker 2: are suspicious, not ruling it accident, not ruling it suicide,

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Speaker 2: and now we're learning carbon monoxide very unlikely. Of course,

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Speaker 2: theories emerge actor Randy Quaid claims Gene Hackman and his

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Speaker 2: wife were murdered. Quaid shared his theory, calling on news

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Speaker 2: agencies to stop talking about the films.

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Speaker 1: He is in.

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Speaker 9: This is how they get away with murdering famous people.

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Speaker 2: To doctor Bethany Marshall joining me, a renounced psychoanalysts out

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Speaker 2: of the LA jurisdiction, author of deal Breaker. You can

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Speaker 2: find her at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com. You can

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Speaker 2: also see her on Peacock Now, doctor Bethany Now. Murder

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Speaker 2: theories are abounding, and part of that reason is because

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Speaker 2: we're not hearing it with suicide for obvious reasons.

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Speaker 1: We're not hearing it was accident. But yet there was.

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Speaker 2: No break in, no forced entry a parent, and we

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Speaker 2: can't find anything missing from the home. So naturally people

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Speaker 2: start thinking murder.

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Speaker 10: That's right, Nancy, But there's so many other things that

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Speaker 10: could have taken place. And what I would be mostly

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Speaker 10: concerned about, just from a behavioral perspective, is did this

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Speaker 10: couple have any negative large events looming.

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Speaker 1: In their life, like a cancer.

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Speaker 10: Diagnosis, not able to pay a mortgage. I know that

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Speaker 10: sounds strange, but I would take that into account. Why

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Speaker 10: was there a two month break in talking to Jean

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Speaker 10: Kackman's daughter, because older couples are much more safe when

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Speaker 10: they are in contact with their families. Were their bills

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Speaker 10: that weren't paid? Was the door typically blocked open? Was

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Speaker 10: there a caregiver or somebody who came in and out

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Speaker 10: of a house. Was there an accountant who paid their bills?

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Speaker 1: How was their food prepared? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: At this hour regarding the deaths of Gene Hackman and

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Speaker 2: his devoted wife Betsy.

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Speaker 1: At this hour, we.

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Speaker 2: Are learning that Hackman's family is also blocking autopsy results

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Speaker 2: for both the star actor and his wife. Reportedly, Hackman's

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Speaker 2: family seeking to block the autopsy reports, photos, and investigation

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Speaker 2: details regarding the actor and his wife. She was a

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Speaker 2: classical pianist, Betsy was now the move is highly unusual

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Speaker 2: to try and block autopsy reports, but it could be

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Speaker 2: because of the interest in his case. And they don't

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Speaker 2: want the photos from the death, including photos of their

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Speaker 2: dead bodies and more to be released to the public.

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Speaker 2: And do you blame them, I don't. We don't know

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Speaker 2: where that is going to land. But this is what

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Speaker 2: we do know about the death.

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Speaker 8: From this search warrant. There were two green and color

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Speaker 8: cell phones, two bottles of medication, one bottle of over

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Speaker 8: the counter tilean on my request, medical records, and a

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Speaker 8: twenty twenty five monthly planner calendar. Mister Hackman and Miss

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Speaker 8: Arikawa were transported to the office of the Medical Investigator.

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Speaker 8: An autopsy was performed. Initial findings noted no external trauma

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Speaker 8: to either individual. The manner and cause of death has

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Speaker 8: not been determined. The official results of the autopsy and

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Speaker 8: toxicology reports are pending.

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Speaker 2: Is that correct, Jessica, No external trauma. That means no

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Speaker 2: gunshot wound, no stabbing, no obvious size of ligature or

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Speaker 2: manual strangulation, no bludgeoning.

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Speaker 1: Correct. Correct.

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Speaker 7: I mean, it's definitely a suspicious case and there's no

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Speaker 7: clear trauma to the bottom. What we do know is

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Speaker 7: that investigators found several types of pills, thyroid medication, blood

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Speaker 7: pressure medication, and over.

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Speaker 1: The counter tile and all.

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Speaker 7: One of the things that's being reported right now from

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Speaker 7: the New York Times is that the pills that were

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Speaker 7: found near Betsy's body are still unidentified, so we don't

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Speaker 7: quite know why those pills that were scattered, what those

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Speaker 7: pills that were scattered on the countertop necessarily were and

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Speaker 7: we know that these two were found in separate rooms.

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Speaker 7: Gene appeared to have been found in what would be

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Speaker 7: the homes and mudroom with his cane nearby and his

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Speaker 7: sunglasses nearby, looking as if he had just simply fallen,

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Speaker 7: whereas she appeared to have possibly fallen and knocked over

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Speaker 7: a space heater on her way down in the bathroom.

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Speaker 7: But we just don't have the answers yet. We don't

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Speaker 7: understand why both of these people were found dead. And

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Speaker 7: definitely it appears that they were found they had passed

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Speaker 7: at least in the last couple of weeks, because people

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Speaker 7: had seen them three weeks ago in the neighborhood.

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Speaker 1: Doctor William Maroney, joining US renowned medical examiner lightning around this.

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Speaker 4: Is a yes, no.

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Speaker 1: Can you die of a thyroid overdose? Thyroid medicine?

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Speaker 5: Not that fast? Yes, not that fast?

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Speaker 2: Okay, what about blood pressure mads? Can you die of

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Speaker 2: an od on blood pressure mads?

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Speaker 5: That blood pressure medicine specifically is known as a calcium

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Speaker 5: channel blocker. One of the things it does is it

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Speaker 5: slows the heart rate. If you took too much, it

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Speaker 5: would stop.

438
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 1: Your heart, but wouldn't that show up in the autopsy.

439
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 10: No.

440
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:41,119
Speaker 5: Well, see the problem with the autopsy and things like

441
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 5: that is they have a predetermined panel of illegal drugs

442
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:50,920
Speaker 5: they looked at. They might have to send out dilthiasm

443
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 5: toxicology to somebody else because for the same reason that

444
00:26:55,840 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 5: the animal toxicology and autopsies are done faster. I don't

445
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:04,879
Speaker 5: know that any medical examiner can give you a fast

446
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 5: level of del taiasm levels. Diocetyl dltiism would be the metabolite,

447
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 5: and you'd look at both of them to see if

448
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 5: it was an acute like took a handful of and died,

449
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 5: or whether we were just taking too much. You've forgotten

450
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 5: it slowed your heart rate. It's a calcium channel.

451
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:27,879
Speaker 2: Blocker that would require But Joshua Ritter joining me, a

452
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 2: high profile criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor, star of

453
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 2: Courtroom Confidential on YouTube, Joshua is not working. Everything he

454
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 2: just said, Ronnie is correct, But you would have to

455
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 2: assume that she the wife, Betsy decided to o date

456
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:51,920
Speaker 2: on BP blood pressure appeals. Then he oded on blood

457
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 2: pressure peeals in a different area, fully closed, looking like

458
00:27:56,359 --> 00:28:00,199
Speaker 2: he was about to walk out the door, and the

459
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:04,440
Speaker 2: dog they forest fed the dog blood pressure medication. It

460
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 2: doesn't fit this scenario, Josh rit Er, I understand why

461
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 2: the murder theories are taking root.

462
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 6: No, absolutely, none of it seems to add up because

463
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 6: you have two people who seem to have collapsed where

464
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 6: they stood. That's my biggest problem is it's not like

465
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,159
Speaker 6: they were one of them was lying in bed or

466
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 6: sitting on a chair. They literally seem to have been

467
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 6: standing and then collapsed on the floor and were found

468
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 6: where they stood. And it seems I think it's safe

469
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,920
Speaker 6: to assume in surmise that it happened close in time

470
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:34,679
Speaker 6: to each other, because neither one of them called nine

471
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 6: to one one for assistance on the other person. So

472
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 6: you've got to assume you've now got two people who

473
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 6: collapse where they stood close in time to each other,

474
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 6: if not at the same time. To me, that's absolutely suspicious.

475
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 6: You have to look into that. I think you have

476
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 6: to do exactly what law enforcement is doing, getting sirch warrants,

477
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 6: starting to gather information, not jumping to any kind of conclusions,

478
00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 6: because do these types of things happen and where two

479
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 6: people might collapse close in time to each other. I

480
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 6: I'm sure that they may have happened before in the past,

481
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 6: but to assume that that's exactly what happened here and

482
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 6: was either, like you said, natural causes or or some

483
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 6: sort of accident, I think would be a mistake at

484
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 6: this point in the investigation.

485
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 3: Hello, money, I think we just found to a one

486
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 3: defief person inside the house. But the year there's nobody dress.

487
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 3: I'm gonna wait for you at the gate. I'm gonna

488
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 3: wait for you and somebody really are now yeah, I'm

489
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 3: their property. There's no address here, so I have to

490
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 3: meet the animalist or the police whoever down at the gatehouse.

491
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 3: I'll bring them up here. I don't even know. You're like, no,

492
00:29:58,040 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 3: they're not moving.

493
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 11: Just bring somebody up here, And in less hours we

494
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 11: learn an obvious possible cause of death has been ruled out.

495
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 8: Both individuals tested negative for carbon monoxide. An initial interrogation

496
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:21,479
Speaker 8: was conducted of mister Hackman's pacemaker. This revealed that his

497
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 8: nasty event was recorded on February seventeenth, twenty twenty five.

498
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 2: Doctor William Ronney, What does that mean his last event?

499
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 2: You mean, for instance, the last time the pacemaker was on, No.

500
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 5: The last time the pacemaker interacted with his heart. His

501
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 5: heart was monitored by the pacemaker, and what that says

502
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 5: to me, once you die, the pacemaker continues to send spikes,

503
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 5: but heart no longer responds. There is no event that

504
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 5: the heart is responding to and they see when that is.

505
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 5: So that would be like the traditional All American heart

506
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 5: attack happened on that day and after that event, the

507
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 5: heart no longer was beating. That's the event he's talking about.

508
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 2: Okay, Cheryl McCollum and joining US coll Case Investigative Research Institute. Cheryl,

509
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 2: my first thought was carbon monoxide, but then when I

510
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 2: heard the door was a jar, in my mind, that

511
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 2: ruled out carbon monoxide.

512
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 1: And the fact.

513
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 2: That the dog is dead too, to me, that rules

514
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 2: out accident. Because you want me to think Gene Hackman

515
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:39,959
Speaker 2: had an accident and died, then his wife had an

516
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 2: accident and died, and then the dog had an accident

517
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 2: and died.

518
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 4: No, agreed. So what we would do in this situation

519
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 4: is look at what is there and what's not there.

520
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,479
Speaker 4: Some of the things that aren't there. There's no blood,

521
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,240
Speaker 4: there's no weapon, there's no shellcasing, there's no sign of

522
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 4: a struggle. Nothing of value is missing. There's no note.

523
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 4: Most importantly, there was not a nine one one call

524
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 4: that came from inside that residence for help. So whatever transpired,

525
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 4: it does seem happen very quickly. Again, it's going to

526
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 4: go back to patterns. You have two animals that were

527
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 4: not in a crate that survives. Why was the one

528
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 4: in the crate? People that are close to them may

529
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 4: be able to tell law enforcement. The German shepherd is

530
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 4: put in the crate. When mister Hackman goes for a walk.

531
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:30,400
Speaker 4: He had sunglasses and.

532
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 1: A cane and was dressed.

533
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 4: Perhaps he was headed outside when either he fail or

534
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 4: whatever occurred happened. But that's the kind of thing you're

535
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 4: going to run into is two almost parallel investigations. You're

536
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 4: going to look at what happened to mister Hackman and

537
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 4: what happened to his wife, and you would almost do

538
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 4: two separate investigations.

539
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 2: There, you're absolutely correct, two separate investigations, and where you're learning,

540
00:32:54,880 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 2: according to law enforcement, that they can't determine who died first,

541
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 2: which could be critical into solving the mystery of Jane

542
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 2: Hackman's death.

543
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 1: Listen, that's a very hard.

544
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 8: Thing to determine, even with the assistance of Omi We

545
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 8: asked that question because that's a question that we want answered.

546
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 8: That's a very hard determination to make, and I don't

547
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 8: think even Omi could make that determination based on the

548
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 8: initial autopsy.

549
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 1: What about it, doctor Moroni? Determining who died first, It's impossible.

550
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 5: You know what time he died, You don't have a

551
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 5: timeline for when she died and how it happened two

552
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 5: separate investigations. Then you can't determine who was first unless

553
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 5: there was security cameras, and there's no security cameras.

554
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 1: Well, wait a minute, hold on, Dr Morony.

555
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 2: Isn't it true if one of them died substantially significantly

556
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 2: before the other, the degree of decomposition would be different.

557
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 5: It would have to be a good full half day

558
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 5: or full day before. You can't really tell a couple hours,

559
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 5: but if it was like a full half day before.

560
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 2: Crime stories with Nancy Grace, also in the Last Days,

561
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 2: we are learning that Gene Hackman made a huge mistake

562
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 2: before his shock death, as a major battle over his

563
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 2: eighty million dollar estate looms. What was the mistake? He

564
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:31,759
Speaker 2: had a living trust at the time of his death

565
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 2: at ninety five, but all the people he listed as

566
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 2: successor trustees were already dead before he passed. Now, according

567
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 2: to documents we have learned about, a representative of Hackman's

568
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 2: estate fought a petition requesting a new temporary success or

569
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 2: trustee be appointed.

570
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 1: That means Gene Hackman's estate is in flux.

571
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 2: Right now, we are also learning the fate of Hackmans

572
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 2: and Betsy's surviving dogs. They love them and treated them

573
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:07,360
Speaker 2: like children. We know seven year old German shepherd Bear

574
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:12,799
Speaker 2: and Nikita have lost each other's companionship. They have been

575
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:20,280
Speaker 2: split up, but they are placed in loving, welcoming homes

576
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 2: after enduring weeks of hell in the house where their

577
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:29,720
Speaker 2: beloved mom and dad, Jane and Betsy passed away.

578
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 1: Where were the other two dogs? Do we know?

579
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 7: You know? From the nine to one one calls, we

580
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:37,720
Speaker 7: hear the dogs barking in the background. We're, of course

581
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:41,279
Speaker 7: assuming that those were the Hackman's dogs. We don't know

582
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 7: where they were found. But the way the nine on

583
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 7: one calls play out, it sounds like they're just kind

584
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 7: of roaming around on the property. It doesn't seem like

585
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,400
Speaker 7: they're inside anywhere. It just seems like they're kind of

586
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 7: like free wheeling outside. From just from the way the

587
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 7: ninemal one calls are the way that echoing of the

588
00:35:57,560 --> 00:35:59,399
Speaker 7: dogs barking in the background can be heard.

589
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 2: The Santa Fe County share of Adam Mendoza stating he's

590
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:08,800
Speaker 2: trying to create a reverse timeline again.

591
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 8: That'll be part of our investigation. We will look and

592
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 8: try to gain access to the cell phones. We'll be

593
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 8: analyzing cell phone data, phone calls, text messages, events, photos

594
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 8: in the cell phone to try to piece a timeline together.

595
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 8: One of the things is in an investigation is we

596
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:29,320
Speaker 8: try a piece of timeline together, usually before the event happens,

597
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 8: and that gives us a lot of information. But in

598
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 8: this case, it seems like we're doing a reverse timeline.

599
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:36,799
Speaker 8: We're doing a timeline from the time of death and

600
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:38,879
Speaker 8: the autopsy and the results, and we're going to start

601
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 8: working our way backwards. We're going to do both and

602
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 8: then hopefully make a determination what may have happened to

603
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 8: both the individuals.

604
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:50,439
Speaker 2: Okay, a reverse timeline based on digital what does that mean?

605
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:54,359
Speaker 2: Looking at cell phone data, computer data? Who were they

606
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,440
Speaker 2: speaking to when? What were they looking up on Google?

607
00:36:57,520 --> 00:36:59,320
Speaker 2: When's the last time they logged in or made a

608
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:02,839
Speaker 2: phone call? Not only that, when it was the last

609
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 2: time people call them and they didn't pick up.

610
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 1: There's more to it, Cheryl McCollum. Think back, Dare I

611
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:10,880
Speaker 1: bring his name up?

612
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,760
Speaker 2: Conjure him? Alex Murdog. The digital data in that case

613
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 2: was overwhelming. As a matter of fact, I believe that's

614
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,880
Speaker 2: how the state finally proved Murdog guilty of double murder

615
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:24,240
Speaker 2: and the deaths of his wife Maggie and son Paul.

616
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 2: The cell phone data compared with the geopositioning and the

617
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 2: NAV system in his suburban really nailed his coffin. So

618
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 2: what do you make of the fact that they're making

619
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:41,240
Speaker 2: a reverse timeline, Cheryl?

620
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 1: And also they have seized pursuit to Warren.

621
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 2: Of course their daytime planners. What does that tell you

622
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 2: they're looking at.

623
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:54,319
Speaker 4: So they're going to take that planner and they're going

624
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:56,920
Speaker 4: to cross check it with what was looked at on

625
00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 4: the phone, dates, calls, appointment, any future event they had

626
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:05,839
Speaker 4: that the person that actually found them was somebody owned

627
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 4: the property doing work that would be in their planner.

628
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 4: So they're going to look at all that to make

629
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 4: sure everything lines up and coincides with what they know

630
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 4: the Hackmans were doing the weeks before in what they

631
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 4: had planned week after.

632
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 2: Well, you know, Josh Ritter, you and I've tried on

633
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,840
Speaker 2: different sides of the fence, of course, many many homicide cases,

634
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 2: and I look at planners to determine did they have

635
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,400
Speaker 2: plans in the future. In other words, when people have

636
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 2: plans in the future, they don't usually commit suicide. If

637
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 2: they're looking forward to something like my twins' spring break.

638
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 2: I'm looking forward to that.

639
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 1: Okay, that's just an example.

640
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 2: But also for forensic reasons, for proative reasons, you look

641
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 2: to see who's the last person there the day that

642
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 2: his pacemaker stopped working, what were they doing, who was

643
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 2: in the home, what was happening. That's why they're looking

644
00:38:58,560 --> 00:38:59,360
Speaker 2: at the planner.

645
00:38:59,480 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 1: Josh.

646
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 6: Absolutely, they're trying to reconstruct the events leading up to it.

647
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 6: And to your point too, are there events, are their

648
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 6: appointments in the future, and if so, does that show

649
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 6: planning for the future which you might be able to

650
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 6: roll that suicide? But did they miss appointments that no

651
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:19,359
Speaker 6: one noticed? And should those people have noticed? Do they

652
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:22,440
Speaker 6: have an appointment with someone and that person they didn't

653
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:24,840
Speaker 6: meet that appointment with that person, and that person didn't

654
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:28,239
Speaker 6: alert anyone or didn't seem bothered by the fact that

655
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:33,239
Speaker 6: they missed this event. So I think the planner can

656
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 6: be a treasure tros of information as far as they're

657
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:39,880
Speaker 6: not only there mundane day to day life, but also

658
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 6: the events that they had planned before and after and

659
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 6: what that might provide some insight into this investigation.

660
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 8: So, you know, I respect the mister Hackman's and miss

661
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 8: ourcau was regard for privacy. I think everybody here understands

662
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:57,800
Speaker 8: that they were very private individuals and a very private family.

663
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 8: There is no surveyance as we right now in the

664
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:04,760
Speaker 8: interior of the residence or the exterior of the residents

665
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 8: that it's going to help us determine our time nine

666
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 8: or events that happened.

667
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 2: That was Santa Fe County Sheriff speaking aid in Mendoza.

668
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 2: What does that mean to be no surveillance, no surveillance,

669
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:22,920
Speaker 2: And let me clarify that, Cheryl McCollum, there's no home

670
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:26,320
Speaker 2: surveillance in the home of a multi time.

671
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 1: Oscar winner Rick, no surveillance.

672
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 2: Hence the theories of murder and or suicide are abounding.

673
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 2: To Jessica Finn, carbon monoxide and I've got a huge

674
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 2: list of celebs and others that die of carbon monoxide

675
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 2: has been ruled out. The levels tested in the autosy

676
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 2: prove it wasn't CM. That was everyone's first thought. That's

677
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 2: been put to bed. No one sees suicide either. It's

678
00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:01,320
Speaker 2: just doesn't make sense that they would both commit suicide

679
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:06,399
Speaker 2: in different rooms with no suicide note, falling like that

680
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 2: look appearing as if they had fallen. I mean, hold on,

681
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 2: doctor William Roney, the method and assessment of suicide is

682
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:16,480
Speaker 2: not consistent with the way these bodies were found.

683
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 5: No suicide usually means there's some kind of preparation. It

684
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:25,400
Speaker 5: doesn't always mean a note, but it means somebody's taken

685
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:32,399
Speaker 5: time to send a message and organize clothes, pills. They

686
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:37,879
Speaker 5: look nice. There's text messages and other communications would give

687
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 5: you a clue that suicide is a possibility, and that

688
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:47,360
Speaker 5: usually follows treatment resistment depression. That we don't have any

689
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 5: sign that these people have major depressive disorders, not at all.

690
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:53,840
Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, Jessica Finn, the US son.

691
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,920
Speaker 2: The daughter says that her dad was actually doing great,

692
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:03,719
Speaker 2: doing polles and yoga multiple times a week. They were

693
00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 2: going out to dinner with France. Nothing suggests to suicide.

694
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:10,400
Speaker 7: Yeah, Jean and his wife really took care of their health.

695
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 7: They were really active in the community. She made sure

696
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:16,719
Speaker 7: that he was in top, top notch shape. He was

697
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:17,879
Speaker 7: doing ploates, like you.

698
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:19,479
Speaker 1: Said, staying fit.

699
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 7: The whole investigation gives us more questions than there are answers.

700
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:27,439
Speaker 7: I mean, for both of these people to have died

701
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:29,800
Speaker 7: and they looked like they dropped where they were standing

702
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 7: in two separate places in the home. You know, we

703
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 7: can't figure out whether this was what kind of foul

704
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 7: play that the police are investigating at this moment. But yeah,

705
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 7: it certainly is a conundrum. It doesn't seem like these

706
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 7: people were in distress together and they were very much

707
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:46,839
Speaker 7: in love from what we've heard.

708
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 8: No, I don't think, you know, there was any indication

709
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 8: that that. Again, there was no trauma indicated on the body.

710
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:55,880
Speaker 8: I'm assuming if they would have fell or you know,

711
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,439
Speaker 8: injured themselves or head injury or brain injury, that would

712
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:01,319
Speaker 8: have been discovered that pathologist. So I'm going to say

713
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:01,959
Speaker 8: that they.

714
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 2: Work so too, Doctor Bethany Marshall. There's no indication this

715
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 2: was an accident, and you just heard the Santa Fe

716
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:13,360
Speaker 2: sheriff say that, and plus if one had an accident,

717
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:15,799
Speaker 2: what the other has an accident and the dog has

718
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:16,320
Speaker 2: an accident.

719
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 1: That that doesn't make sense.

720
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:22,439
Speaker 2: We're not getting that the dog starved, nothing like that.

721
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 2: So the sheriff is saying, no accident, there's no carbon monoxide.

722
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 2: Let's deal with suicide, because I don't see suicide either.

723
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:31,879
Speaker 1: I don't see suicide either.

724
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 10: And that's why I asked earlier, was that there's some catastrophe,

725
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,719
Speaker 10: a catastrophic event looming in their lives which would would

726
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 10: make them want not want to live. You know, Nancy,

727
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 10: there's an untold story here that I'm very curious about,

728
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:47,359
Speaker 10: and that is, even though he was well and doing

729
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 10: pilates and taking walks, had she become his caregiver. I

730
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:54,840
Speaker 10: do to treat couples in my practice where one partner

731
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:56,920
Speaker 10: is ill and the other one is the caregiver, and

732
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:01,279
Speaker 10: especially when it's a family member, they typically refuse respite care,

733
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 10: meaning they don't want other people to come and help.

734
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 10: They want to provide the primary care because they love

735
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:11,800
Speaker 10: their family member and the caregiver's health typically breaks down

736
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:15,920
Speaker 10: over time. In fact, statistically, we know that there's a

737
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 10: greater likelihood of a caregiver dying we maturely when they

738
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:22,319
Speaker 10: are taking care of a family member. So had her

739
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 10: health been breaking down, and in that case, doctor's records

740
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:28,719
Speaker 10: and also looking at that day planner and seeing how

741
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:31,239
Speaker 10: many appointments was she going to, how many appointments was

742
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 10: she taking him.

743
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:36,840
Speaker 2: An Dr Beth and they everything you're saying is correct. However,

744
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 2: friends that just just went out with them say that

745
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:46,840
Speaker 2: they were happy, healthy, doing really well, giving no sign

746
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 2: that his wife, Betsy was.

747
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:51,799
Speaker 1: On the decline. As a matter of fact, she had

748
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 1: devoted herself to him.

749
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 2: I'm just not seeing suicide, So, doctor William Maroney, there

750
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:01,400
Speaker 2: are only so many CODs cause of death. You've got

751
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 2: suicide ruled out, there's no trauma, there's no OD. You've

752
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 2: got carbon monoxide ruled out here, the sheriff ruling out accident.

753
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:17,719
Speaker 2: All this left is what murder, homicide and unexplained.

754
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 5: Yes, number one homicide, number two, accident, number three natural,

755
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:33,719
Speaker 5: number four suicide, and number five would be indetermined. That's

756
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:34,719
Speaker 5: our five pauses.

757
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:41,880
Speaker 1: We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace signing off, goodbye friend,