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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert here, just introducing we've got another rerun.

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Speaker 2: This is the first time we've done two weeks in

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Speaker 2: a row. Normally we just do one week at the

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Speaker 2: end of the year. But all of the other shows

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Speaker 2: on our network and most of the other shows that

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Speaker 2: I know in podcasting take off two weeks. And Sophie

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Speaker 2: was like, hey, Robert, why don't you actually take off

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Speaker 2: two weeks instead of cramming during your vacation to write

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Speaker 2: another podcast so that we don't fall behind. And I

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Speaker 2: was like, you know what, Sophie, that's a pretty good idea.

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Speaker 2: So anyway, that's what we're doing. Enjoy this episode on

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Speaker 2: how cigarettes invented everything. Should really get that checked out.

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Speaker 2: Cut me blowing my nose, but keep the yell, keep

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Speaker 2: the It sounded like a wounded elephant. I feel like

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Speaker 2: a wounded elephant. The pollen count in Oregon right now

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Speaker 2: is unbelievable. I just went outside during the break between

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Speaker 2: episode recordings and emptied a magazine from an AR fifteen

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Speaker 2: into a tree, but it does not appear to have

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Speaker 2: solved the problem.

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Speaker 3: So, yeah, you gotta gotta get heavier than that, man,

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Speaker 3: You gotta Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I should have used the three eight. You know, that's

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Speaker 2: why they went.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's why the army is up created.

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Speaker 2: Yeah you want to fuck up a tree? Yeah you

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Speaker 2: really want you really want to move closer to that

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Speaker 2: thirty caliber range.

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Speaker 3: Yep, so spoil to you by six point eight tree killer.

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Speaker 2: Yeah that's three thirty eight Lappawa baby.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that' fuck up.

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Speaker 2: When I was a young man, times like this, right

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Speaker 2: around near the end of the year, my friends and

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Speaker 2: I would go out into the woods and we would

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Speaker 2: shoot down a tree in order to have a bonfire

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Speaker 2: around it. And that doesn't really relate to the subject

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Speaker 2: of the episode, but we often smoked cigarettes while doing it.

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Speaker 3: Interesting, and it's kind of like shooting down a tree,

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Speaker 3: isn't it, Because if you're active consumer base, it's a

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Speaker 3: bit like shooting shooting down a tree.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. You just have to hope that they can grow

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Speaker 2: up faster than you can shoot them shoot them, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I mean. And it's also what they say about the

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Speaker 2: human race, because one thing you got to give it

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Speaker 2: to us is we bred slightly faster than cigarettes were

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Speaker 2: able to kill us.

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Speaker 3: Once again, a win for humanity.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, a titanic dub So cigarettes did not get to

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Speaker 2: have their real moment in the sun until a few

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Speaker 2: years after the dissolution of American tobacco, which again the

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Speaker 2: Supreme Court knocks it out in nineteen eleven. Probably somewhere

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Speaker 2: under ten percent of a merit of smokers and a

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Speaker 2: much smaller portion of the US population actually smoked cigarettes.

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Speaker 2: So a pretty small fraction of the US adult population

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Speaker 2: is smoking still, even even as successful as our old

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Speaker 2: buddy Duke wasn't getting people to smoke. But the thing

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Speaker 2: that's going to actually start to change this and really

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Speaker 2: turn around cigarettes fortunes is the First World War. Now, James,

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Speaker 2: you've been a trench.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I've been in a couple of trenches, so yeah,

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Speaker 3: that's no professional reasons.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there trenches are not the cleanest places in the world,

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Speaker 2: especially if it's raining and their muddy. You wouldn't want

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Speaker 2: to have a pipe in a trench necessarily, Like you

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Speaker 2: could smoke a pipe in a trench, but stuff's going

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Speaker 2: to get in it. That's kind of gross, right, that's

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Speaker 2: not ideal. Yeah, And when you know, if you're doing

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Speaker 2: trench stuff, you probably don't have time to sit down

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Speaker 2: and really smoke a cigar. You know, they take a while.

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Speaker 2: Cigarettes are the depends on what rank you're at, doesn't

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Speaker 2: it Once you write right, if you're sitting yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you get up to the you know, the

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Speaker 3: field grade officers, you find a cigarette.

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Speaker 2: They have plenty of time for cigars, and they have

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Speaker 2: clean enough areas for cigarette or for pipes. But if

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Speaker 2: you're a working man in the trenches, the best way

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Speaker 2: you have to smoke in between getting murdered by German

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Speaker 2: machine guns is a cigarette. And that's really what causes

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Speaker 2: a shitload of people to start adopting cigarettes. That's what

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Speaker 2: actually makes it a mainstream thing. Is World War One.

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Speaker 3: Now it goes well with death, It.

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Speaker 2: Does go well with death, James. Cigarette adoption had crept

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Speaker 2: up only gradually prior to this, and it had been

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Speaker 2: met by this a really active anti smoking campaign the

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Speaker 2: whole time. It's kind of always noting that the first

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Speaker 2: twenty years of like the twentieth century, basically from like

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Speaker 2: the late eighteen nineties to like nineteen seventeen nineteen eighteen,

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Speaker 2: there's a very active anti smoking campaign in the United States,

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Speaker 2: and it's powered by a lot of the same voices

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Speaker 2: who are also fighting for prohibition. There were even bands

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Speaker 2: on the public consumption of tobacco in some states. In

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Speaker 2: nineteen ten, a doctor named Charles Peace founded the Non

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Speaker 2: Smoker's Protective League, advocating for a public smoking band in

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Speaker 2: America's largest city. In nineteen thirteen, The New York Times

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Speaker 2: published an op ed opposing the establishment of smoking cars

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Speaker 2: in the subway. Now, these people we now know are right,

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Speaker 2: you know, like cigarettes bad, public smoking bad. But they're not. Again,

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Speaker 2: there's not strong evidence that proves cigarettes cause cancer at

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Speaker 2: this point. There's not really good scientific studies at this point.

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Speaker 2: These people are just busybodies, right, Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 3: Right, they can be right for the wrong reasons. Well,

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Speaker 3: what are their arguments that they well don't like it?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, let me let me tell you. Chief among the

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Speaker 2: voices of small of non smokers is our old friend

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Speaker 2: of the pod, John Harvey Kellogg, America's good.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Kellogg's complaint was quote, smoking has become so nearly universal

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Speaker 2: among men that non smokers are practically ignored and their

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Speaker 2: rights trampled upon. Now that means that, like, by being

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Speaker 2: around cigarette smoke, you're having your rights trampled upon. And yes,

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Speaker 2: we now know secondhand smoke is seriously bad for you.

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Speaker 2: At the time we did it. And also, let's be

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Speaker 2: honest here nineteen seventeen, walking around a city that's still

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Speaker 2: filled with horseshit and now leaded gasoline fumes from all

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Speaker 2: of the cars rolling around and industrial smoke from all

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Speaker 2: of the different fucking coal factories and stuff. Cigarettes are

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Speaker 2: not your number one health risk.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the end of the thing, number one trampling on

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Speaker 3: your right side of seventeen.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just not the biggest problem. Look, John Harvey Kellogg,

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Speaker 2: Well he don't give him credit. Yeah, do not give

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Speaker 2: him credit for being on the right side of history

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Speaker 2: with this one. So non smokers also, it was not

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Speaker 2: again because there's not greats there are some of these

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Speaker 2: people do so ours are ahead of their time and

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Speaker 2: are saying like, hey, this stuff is has to be

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Speaker 2: bad for you, and we're going to figure out like

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Speaker 2: the way in which it's killing people later. A lot

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Speaker 2: of them are just angry because they think it's gross,

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Speaker 2: And a huge chunk of them are angry because cigarettes

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Speaker 2: are popular with women, right because women start smoking. That's

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Speaker 2: a big part of the anti smoking campaign. In nineteen

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Speaker 2: oh four, New York State passes a law that makes

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Speaker 2: it a crime for women to quote, endanger the morals

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Speaker 2: of children by smoking in their presence. A woman named

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Speaker 2: Jinny Lasher was charged and sentenced to jail for violating it.

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Speaker 2: In nineteen oh eight, New York City aldermen passed an

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Speaker 2: ordinance restricting public smoking by women from the Washington Post quote.

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Speaker 2: The Sullivan Ordinance made it illegal for restaurant and bar

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Speaker 2: owners to permit women to smoke in their establishments. The

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Speaker 2: stated rationale from Bowery moralist and political chieftain Tim Sullivan

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Speaker 2: was that proper ladies were offended by women smoking, and

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Speaker 2: it certainly wasn't any kind of attempt by a man

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Speaker 2: to control women's behavior. Despite the ordinance's short duration it

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Speaker 2: lasted only two weeks, the sentiment underlying it was held

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Speaker 2: by others as well. Women smoking was viewed by many

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Speaker 2: as taboo, associated with what Amanda Amos and Margaretha Haglund

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Speaker 2: have termed lush and libbid moral behavior. So it is

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Speaker 2: a good band name, and it's interesting. One of the

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Speaker 2: things that cigarettes do is they make it. They are

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Speaker 2: a big part of why it starts to become okay

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Speaker 2: for men and women to socialize together who are unmarried.

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Speaker 2: Right in a lot of ways. So one of the

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Speaker 2: things that is common prior to cigarettes becoming mainstream, after

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Speaker 2: you have like a big dinner, if you have a

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Speaker 2: fancy pody, then after dinner, the men will go to

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Speaker 2: smoke cigars and the women will, you know, go clean

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Speaker 2: up or something. And increasingly in the early twenties, what starts,

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Speaker 2: or in the early nineteenth nineteen hundreds, what starts to

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Speaker 2: happen is after dinner, everybody has a cigarette. And women

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Speaker 2: didn't smoke cigars, but cigarettes are new, and so it's

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Speaker 2: not really that weird to a lot of modern people

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Speaker 2: that women would smoke them. And also there's not women's cigarettes,

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Speaker 2: so everyone's smoking the same cigarettes, and increasingly they start

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Speaker 2: doing it in the same places together, unmarried men and

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Speaker 2: women just hanging out and having a smoke and talking.

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Speaker 2: This is a big part of this is kind of

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Speaker 2: in the background of the of the suffrage movement, but

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Speaker 2: cigarettes do play a significant role in the increasing acceptance

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Speaker 2: of social equality for women because men and women spend

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Speaker 2: time together to smoke. Yeah, it makes not a non factor.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, It's definitely a time period when there's generally

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Speaker 3: this change in gender roles, right with women working in

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Speaker 3: a first World War and like, well.

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Speaker 2: That's yeah, that's another part of it, right, is like

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Speaker 2: women are taking on men's jobs, why wouldn't they be

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Speaker 2: able to smoke? And you know, it's a it's a

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Speaker 2: whole thing. So smokers also started to organize to establish

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Speaker 2: more public smoking places. Tobacco dealers would often back and

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Speaker 2: fund local efforts to lobby for smoking cars on trains

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Speaker 2: or to allow the smoking of cigarettes on the rear

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Speaker 2: platform of street cars. Within the military, there were strenuous

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Speaker 2: debates as to whether or not tobaccos should be legal

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Speaker 2: for soldiers. In nineteen oh seven, the surgeon General of

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Speaker 2: the Navy had recommended that sailors under twenty one be

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Speaker 2: banned from smoking cigarettes. This was outrageous to the actual

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Speaker 2: men of the Navy, and one enlisted man wrote this

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Speaker 2: in response, If this cigarette recommendation has made the rule,

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Speaker 2: and such a thing as ordered, it's gonna put all

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Speaker 2: us young fellows who like them on the beam. It's

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Speaker 2: all right to talk about your cigars and your pipes,

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Speaker 2: but cigarettes are cigarettes, and when you once get to

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Speaker 2: liking the little sticks, there's nothing that can take their place.

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Speaker 2: Then don't forget that life on the ocean with none

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Speaker 2: of your women, folks or girlfriends around to break the monotony.

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Speaker 2: Is a lot different from life ashore. And I tell

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Speaker 2: you those dream sticks help you pass away Miniga, dreary

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Speaker 2: and homestick hour. Just a bunch of navy boys, no

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Speaker 2: women around, sucking down dream sticks.

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Speaker 3: Dreamsticks.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Direct quote from Joe Biden's speech about pardoning people with marijuana.

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Speaker 2: For dream sticks. In an unrelated note, I saw a

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Speaker 2: picture of Joe Biden with a quantum computer the other

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Speaker 2: day and it just struck me as the most wrong thing.

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Speaker 2: It's like looking at Winston Churchill with a game boy. Know,

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Speaker 2: those aren't supposed to be in the same photograph. And

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Speaker 2: Joe Biden should never have lived to see a quantum computer.

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Speaker 3: It's like seeing a diplodocus for Tamagotchi hang it out

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Speaker 3: and yeah, yeah, I expect.

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Speaker 2: No, that's not okay, that's not okay. So opposition to

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Speaker 2: cigarettes in the military disappeared overnight once the United States

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Speaker 2: got into World War One. Much of this had to

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Speaker 2: do with black Jack Pershing, the leader of the American

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Speaker 2: Expeditionary Force, who, when asked what Americans could do to

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Speaker 2: support their soldiers going overseas gave this reply. You asked

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Speaker 2: me what we need to win this war. I answered,

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Speaker 2: tobacco as much as bullets.

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Speaker 3: Oh great, it's so true.

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Speaker 2: It is.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, we've spoken about this before, but the universal

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Speaker 3: truth of conflict journalism that if you need something and

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Speaker 3: you're not sure that someone's going to give it to you,

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Speaker 3: you can probably get it by giving someone enough cigarettes.

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Speaker 2: I keep packs on me every time I'm anywhere near

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Speaker 2: because like it's not always just getting something. Some of

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Speaker 2: it is like you meet people and their stand on

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Speaker 2: because like I don't know, they're fucking soldiers in a

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Speaker 2: war zone whose daily life involves dealing with horrible trauma,

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Speaker 2: and they don't know you. And then you like bust

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Speaker 2: out some Marboroughs and you sit and smoke for like

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Speaker 2: twenty minutes together, and then they just start talking. You know,

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Speaker 2: like that's a thing. They're useful, yeah.

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Speaker 3: Work, Yeah, they're a great tool for journalism.

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Speaker 2: Well, they're also in terms of how they're being used

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Speaker 2: that's not unhealthy by the military, because cigarettes spoilers make

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Speaker 2: you worse at everything that is important for soldiers, almost everything.

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Speaker 2: Right today, US soldiers who smoke score an average of

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Speaker 2: thirty five points lower on PT tests. Cigarette smoking harms

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Speaker 2: your night vision, like it's bad for your performance. Yes,

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Speaker 2: they are bad for your performance in combat. In addition

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Speaker 2: to like people get shot smoking cigarettes cherries.

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Speaker 3: Right, that happens for sure.

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Speaker 2: But one thing they do is they are a stress reliever.

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Speaker 2: And we can debate in the long term it's not

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Speaker 2: a great coping strategy, but if your daily job is

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Speaker 2: to get shot at repeatedly, you don't care about the

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Speaker 2: long term. You just went like a moment where things

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Speaker 2: feel okay.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there is not a long term for a lot

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Speaker 3: of people in World War One.

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Speaker 2: No, no, especially not. And the other thing that they

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Speaker 2: do is, as we just talked about, people bond while smoking.

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Speaker 2: It's a part of why men and women. It's a

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Speaker 2: way in which men and women start to bond socially

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Speaker 2: in a way they had not in a long time

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Speaker 2: in Western society. And soldiers in the trenches bond sharing smokes. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it is a thing that you do with each other

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Speaker 2: and you can't Number one, this is a thing I

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Speaker 2: don't think the tobacco industry could have anticipated because it's

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Speaker 2: just a very human thing. And it's also you can't

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Speaker 2: fight this like there's nothing to do about it. It's

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Speaker 2: just a thing that people have adopted for themselves in

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Speaker 2: a difficult time. And so this is a this is

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Speaker 2: a problem for the anti smoking people. Obviously smoking again

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Speaker 2: very bad for everything else that makes you be a soldier,

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Speaker 2: But soldiers are not thinking about that in the times

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Speaker 2: when they're smoking them, and in a lot of military

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Speaker 2: planners cases like they're also it's hard to argue even

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Speaker 2: though you've got people who are in the medical profession

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Speaker 2: for the military being like these probably aren't good for people.

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Speaker 2: It's hard to argue that like a guy who you're

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Speaker 2: asking to run at a machine gun nest doesn't deserve

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Speaker 2: to have like a cigarette. Yeah. Yes, And you know,

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Speaker 2: if you know America, you know that love for our

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Speaker 2: military is basically the not so secret control level lever

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Speaker 2: for the American mind. So cigarettes had been controversial prior

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Speaker 2: to World War One, but once we start sending men

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Speaker 2: in the field and pershings like we need cigarettes. Organizations

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Speaker 2: that had previously lobbied nationwide for smoking bands like the

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Speaker 2: YMCA prior to World War One. The YMCA is a

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Speaker 2: massive part of trying to ban public smoking as soon

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Speaker 2: as the war starts they start shipping palettes of cigarettes

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Speaker 2: to the battlefields.

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Speaker 3: It's great entry for so long. You can just put

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Speaker 3: the support of the troops stank on anything and people

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Speaker 3: will love it.

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Speaker 1: Here.

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Speaker 2: It's it's interesting. In the cigarette century, Alan Brandt writes,

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Speaker 2: volunteers organized smoke funds to collect donations to assure that

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Speaker 2: the troops had adequate supplies of cigarettes. The Sun Fund

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Speaker 2: A massed one hundred and thirty seven million cigarettes in

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Speaker 2: a two month period. Tobacco may not be a necessity

294
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Speaker 2: of life in the ordinary sense of the term, explained

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Speaker 2: The New York Times, but it certainly lightens the inevitable

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Speaker 2: hardships of war as nothing else can do. The National

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Speaker 2: Cigarette Service Committee collected the names of soldiers without families

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Speaker 2: to make sure they received cigarettes. Volunteers prepared packages for

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Speaker 2: shipment to the troops under the auspices of groups such

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Speaker 2: as the Army Girls Transport Tobacco Fund. That's sweet, yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, amazing. I'm sure these people were also like dying

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Speaker 3: of trench foot and would have really appreciated like a

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Speaker 3: new pair of socks.

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Speaker 2: Yes, socks probably also would have gone over well yeah coat,

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Speaker 2: I mean, I assume the military was already attempting to

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Speaker 2: provide those things, Like, it is new that you would

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Speaker 2: provide cigarettes as the military.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So, in the early days of the war, the US

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Speaker 2: war effort, I should say, the fact that most aid

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Speaker 2: organizations in Europe provided cigarettes to soldiers for a fee,

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Speaker 2: often substantial, regularly made the news back home. Soldiers are like,

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Speaker 2: we're paying as much for a cigarette at the front

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Speaker 2: as we have to pay back at home. Like, that's

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Speaker 2: kind of fucked up.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 2: Donated cigarettes were only able to solve a small portion

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Speaker 2: of this problem. One hundred and thirty nine million cigarettes

319
00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:30,280
Speaker 2: is not a lot. If you know anything about cigarettes,

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Speaker 2: that's not very many. Sounds like a lot. It is not.

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Speaker 2: A fucking army in the field will smoke through one

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Speaker 2: hundred and thirty nine million cigarettes quicker than they'll go

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Speaker 2: through that many bullets.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that is true.

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Speaker 2: Donated cigarettes only, yeh, solved a small number of the problems.

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Speaker 2: So the War Department had to make the decision to

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Speaker 2: issue tobacco rations to soldiers starting in May of nineteen eighteen.

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Speaker 2: The New York Times wrote of the decision, quote, a

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Speaker 2: wave of joy swept through the American Army.

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Speaker 3: Great and them have it.

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Speaker 2: War fever means a temporary end to the anti smoking movement.

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Speaker 2: Many men who had hated cigarettes prior to the war

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Speaker 2: had become addicts while overseas, right they you know, they're

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Speaker 2: big hygiene guys before and then they get shot at

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Speaker 2: and they have a smoke in the fucking trench with

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Speaker 2: their buddy, and then you know, for the rest of

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Speaker 2: their lives they think kindly of cigarettes. And also the

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Speaker 2: fact that the cigarette is now associated with the hard

339
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Speaker 2: bitten trench fighter means that you can't attack the moral

340
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Speaker 2: character of smokers the anti smoking movement. They're only smoked

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Speaker 2: by criminals and not white people, right, and now they're

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00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:40,280
Speaker 2: like they're part of the icon of the heroic soldier. Right.

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Speaker 2: So in nineteen hundred, again, barely five percent of the

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Speaker 2: country smoked, or like nineteen oh four something like that.

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Speaker 2: By nineteen forty and again sorry, in like the start

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Speaker 2: of the nineteen hundreds, about five percent of the country

347
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Speaker 2: who smokes tobacco smokes. Right. By nineteen forty, forty percent

348
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Speaker 2: of the United States adult population smokes on a daily

349
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Speaker 2: BASEI oh, yeah, it is a huge increase.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that is crazy.

351
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Speaker 2: Average per consumer consumption escalated to in nineteen hundred, Americans

352
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Speaker 2: consumed about fifty four cigarettes per person per year. Right,

353
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Speaker 2: that's the average for the whole population. In nineteen sixty three,

354
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Speaker 2: Americans consume forty three hundred cigarettes per Jesus Christ. Was

355
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Speaker 2: not expecting that. That is so many cigarettes.

356
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Speaker 3: Forty three hundred per Jesus Christ.

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Speaker 2: That's quite a few cigarettes.

358
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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you're really opting the intake they're going to get. True.

359
00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,600
Speaker 3: Those Pokemon car collections now, oh.

360
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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no, a lot of kids are getting a

361
00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:48,439
Speaker 2: lot of baseball cards. Yep. You know, those numbers are

362
00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:50,919
Speaker 2: drive driven up by all of this. The eleven year

363
00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:54,920
Speaker 2: old smoking twelve thousand cigarettes.

364
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Speaker 3: Smoking four cigarettes at once, just burning through an entire

365
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Speaker 3: carton in a day. Yeah.

366
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Speaker 2: So this new wave of smokers brought with it changes

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Speaker 2: in American smoking habits, largely driven by R. J. Reynolds,

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Speaker 2: president of the Reynolds Tobacco Company. Richard Joshua Reynolds had

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00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:17,040
Speaker 2: been born on July twentieth, eighteen fifty, in Patrick County, Virginia.

370
00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:19,480
Speaker 2: His father was a tobacco farmer, and as a young man,

371
00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:23,119
Speaker 2: Reynolds worked for his dad's plantation, which absolutely included a

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00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:26,840
Speaker 2: fuckload of enslaved people. R J was just fifteen when

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00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:29,479
Speaker 2: the Civil War ended, bringing with it the first tiny

374
00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:32,320
Speaker 2: surge and cigarette usage. He quickly fell in love with

375
00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:34,879
Speaker 2: the things, and he turned his father's company into an

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00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:37,600
Speaker 2: industry leading producer. And R. J. Reynolds is different from

377
00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:41,480
Speaker 2: Duke in that Duke, when he smokes, smokes cigars right.

378
00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:44,120
Speaker 2: He wants to sell cigarettes. He thinks they're a good business.

379
00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:46,800
Speaker 2: He doesn't understand them, right. He understands how to get

380
00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:49,280
Speaker 2: people to want to buy something. He's a good marketer.

381
00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,359
Speaker 2: He doesn't really get what people like in a cigarette.

382
00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:55,800
Speaker 2: There is nothing that R. J. Reynolds loves more than cigarettes.

383
00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:59,800
Speaker 2: This man. You have never loved a human being in

384
00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:02,480
Speaker 2: your life the way this man loves the concept of

385
00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:06,959
Speaker 2: a cigarette. He is such a cigarette lover that he

386
00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:10,639
Speaker 2: attempts to avoid getting into Duke's tobacco trust. Right. He

387
00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:12,320
Speaker 2: has his own way. He wants to do things. He

388
00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:14,120
Speaker 2: doesn't want to get involved in this trust. He wants

389
00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:17,960
Speaker 2: to sell his cigarettes the way he wants to. He

390
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,760
Speaker 2: actually gets forced by Duke into the trust because Duke

391
00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:24,120
Speaker 2: uses shady methods to buy two thirds of reynolds tobacco

392
00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:28,280
Speaker 2: stock to force the company into American tobacco, and despite this, R. J.

393
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,560
Speaker 2: Reynolds refuses to work with Duke, and he even secretly

394
00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:34,280
Speaker 2: helps the US government build an anti trust case against

395
00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:38,440
Speaker 2: American Tobacco. When the Supreme Court broke the trust, Reynolds

396
00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:41,560
Speaker 2: had one goal to fuck over Buck Duke and his company.

397
00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:45,359
Speaker 2: In nineteen thirteen, he created a new cigarette which featured

398
00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:47,919
Speaker 2: a mix of American and Turkish tobacco to create a

399
00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:51,439
Speaker 2: blended cigarette. He called this new cigarette the Camel.

400
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:56,560
Speaker 3: Oh, there is camel cigarettes. Why did he choose camel

401
00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:02,880
Speaker 3: because it's Turkish tobacco. I see, you know, Turkey, camels,

402
00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:07,480
Speaker 3: two things that are famous, constantly associated with each other.

403
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,480
Speaker 3: Just imagine how much better he just called it the

404
00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:15,199
Speaker 3: Turkey the Turkey, right, yeah, yes, His angry Turkish nationalists

405
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:18,560
Speaker 3: love love the fact that those two things are sort of.

406
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:21,840
Speaker 2: Say he should have called it the Greek and then

407
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:27,600
Speaker 2: had just a drawing of the Anatolian Peninsula on it.

408
00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,280
Speaker 2: They'd be banned there to this day.

409
00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:34,720
Speaker 3: There would have been more wars in twentieth century Europe.

410
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:38,080
Speaker 2: I'm going to quote now from the cigarette century. To

411
00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:41,359
Speaker 2: help distinguish it from its competition, Reynolds offered no promotions.

412
00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,199
Speaker 2: Smokers realized that the value was in the cigarettes, and

413
00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:48,080
Speaker 2: do not expect promotions or coupons, he explained. Against Duke's

414
00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:52,040
Speaker 2: earlier advertising devoted to these now traditional promotional devices, Reynolds

415
00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:55,919
Speaker 2: went modern. Reynolds committed unprecedented advertising money to promote this

416
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,200
Speaker 2: single product, creating a national campaign to make the camel

417
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:03,159
Speaker 2: cigarette a true national brand. In nineteen fourteen, newspapers throughout

418
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,400
Speaker 2: the country ran ads several days in succession that announced simply,

419
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,480
Speaker 2: the camels are coming. They were followed by a second

420
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,199
Speaker 2: wave of ads proclaiming tomorrow there will be more in

421
00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:15,840
Speaker 2: this town than all of Asia and Africa combined. Creating

422
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:19,160
Speaker 2: such expectations and their fulfillment would become a central technique

423
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:22,359
Speaker 2: of modern consumer advertising. The third ad portraying the camel

424
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:27,200
Speaker 2: cigarette package read, camel cigarettes are here this advertising campaign

425
00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,680
Speaker 2: and here The term campaign appropriately reflects the strategic technique

426
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:35,320
Speaker 2: met with unprecedented success. We look at that yeah, yeah,

427
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:36,080
Speaker 2: smart man.

428
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it is like iconic brand, okay, cigarettes, Like

429
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:43,040
Speaker 3: I know, there are many brands that seem to like

430
00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:45,960
Speaker 3: be as iconic as cigarette brands, and its global and.

431
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is the start of that part of it, right,

432
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,920
Speaker 2: because cigarettes have started to go viral in this but

433
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:55,560
Speaker 2: not necessarily on a brand basis. Right, you do have

434
00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:57,600
Speaker 2: kind of some of these early brands, but they all,

435
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,439
Speaker 2: like every tobacco company has a bunch of different and

436
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,240
Speaker 2: they sell different ones in different regions. Reynolds is the

437
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:04,840
Speaker 2: first guy to be like, no, not only do I

438
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:07,480
Speaker 2: want my company to be the biggest, I want this

439
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:11,960
Speaker 2: one specific kind of cigarette to be everywhere. So when

440
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,399
Speaker 2: World War One ended, Campbell accounted for more than thirty

441
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:17,440
Speaker 2: percent of the US cigarette market. Campbell's came into vogue

442
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:19,960
Speaker 2: just as a new generation of female smokers came onto

443
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,960
Speaker 2: the scene. These women had traditionally taken male job had

444
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:25,200
Speaker 2: taken traditionally male jobs for men who'd left to fight,

445
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:27,800
Speaker 2: and after helping to save the US economy, they didn't

446
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:30,040
Speaker 2: take well to the argument that them enjoying a smoke

447
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,160
Speaker 2: with some sort of sin against femininity from the Washington Post.

448
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 2: Cigarette advertising companies, which at the time primarily employed Mabel

449
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 2: advertising executives, quickly co opted the ideas of independence that

450
00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 2: women began to assert at the polls and in the workplace.

451
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,639
Speaker 2: They targeted women, conveying the notions that women who smoked

452
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:50,399
Speaker 2: were independent, attractive, and even athletic. Lucky Strikes nineteen twenty

453
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 2: five marketing pitch to women told them to reach for

454
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,920
Speaker 2: a lucky instead of a suite, the message smoke and

455
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:56,640
Speaker 2: you'll be thin.

456
00:23:57,480 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 3: Oh great, there is.

457
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:00,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty fun.

458
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:02,680
Speaker 3: Yeah how long that would take?

459
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:05,679
Speaker 2: And this is number one. One thing that starts to

460
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,639
Speaker 2: happen in this is a whole new generation of extremely

461
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,920
Speaker 2: skinny female models starts to become popular because of this

462
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,920
Speaker 2: Lucky Strike ad campaign they helped to create, like that

463
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,159
Speaker 2: that whole great thing, that whole trend.

464
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:20,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, body image.

465
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 2: Now this there's a backlash to this, and there's kind

466
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 2: of a war between cigarettes and the candy industry, and

467
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:30,440
Speaker 2: it's it's very funny that one of the cigarettes that

468
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 2: will come in the market at this time, I think

469
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,760
Speaker 2: it might be Marlboroughs. Their advertising campaign is to like

470
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 2: push back at camel by being like, no, cigarettes and

471
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 2: candy are both good for you. You should have your

472
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 2: cigarette and your chocolate. They're a healthy treat. But no,

473
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:47,919
Speaker 2: the candy industry has to be like, the fuck are

474
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:51,960
Speaker 2: you saying about people not eating candy? Come on, we're

475
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 2: not trying to shit on cigarettes.

476
00:24:53,640 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 3: Here, they're just too nice, you won't care. And just

477
00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 3: when they start making candy cigarettes and reading, well.

478
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is that. And in this period. One of

479
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,120
Speaker 2: the interesting things about candy cigarettes when they first get made,

480
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,119
Speaker 2: they're all made with the brands of real cigarettes. So

481
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 2: there'll be cammebl's now not legally they're all illegal. They're

482
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 2: all candy companies using a brand illegally. The cigarette industry

483
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,959
Speaker 2: makes a concerted decision to never pursue charges over it,

484
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,719
Speaker 2: to never go after them, because they're like, well, if

485
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 2: kids get used to picking up a pack of camels,

486
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 2: that's a win for us. Yeah, Like, there's no downside

487
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 2: to us letting them do this.

488
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a win for everyone. Great.

489
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, one thing that does happen in the post

490
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,119
Speaker 2: war period is that female smokers are an easier target

491
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 2: for anti smoking advocates than soldiers who are you know,

492
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:51,919
Speaker 2: heroic and stuff. When the Eighteenth Amendment gets past banning

493
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 2: the sale of alcohol, moral crusaders like evangelist Billy Sunday

494
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 2: turn their attention to tobacco, saying in one speech, prohibition

495
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,880
Speaker 2: is one now for tobacco. The Women's Christian Temperance Union

496
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 2: issued a pamphlet titled Smoking Next. The first success in

497
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,639
Speaker 2: this wave of the anti smoking movement came in Utah,

498
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 2: which banned the sale, giving away, or other exchange of cigarettes.

499
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 2: The bill's advocates included the WCTU and and the Mormon Church,

500
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 2: both of which emphasized the moral risks of letting women

501
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:24,440
Speaker 2: be seen smoking. Senator Edward Southwick, who wrote the bill,

502
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 2: quoted US Surgeon General Hugh Cumming, which was his real name,

503
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 2: as saying, if American women generally contract the habit as

504
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 2: reports now indicate they are doing, the entire American nation

505
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 2: will suffer. The physical tone of the whole nation will

506
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:40,919
Speaker 2: be lowered. This is one of the most evil influences

507
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 2: in American life today. The habit harms a woman more

508
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 2: than it does a man. Great, thanks you, Yeah, yeah, yeah,

509
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 2: real smart guy, real comer. Hugh.

510
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, there are the names he could have been cursed

511
00:26:58,000 --> 00:26:59,880
Speaker 3: with which his first name could have been worse.

512
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:05,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know what will make you come, James,

513
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:11,880
Speaker 2: Please lend me the sponsors of our podcasts, not their products,

514
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,400
Speaker 2: which are a sexual but the actual people who run

515
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:19,120
Speaker 2: an own stock in the companies. Any time you ask for.

516
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 3: It, that's that's a promise. Yeah, I don't put that

517
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 3: in the old context.

518
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 2: But ah, we're back. We're talking about come. You know,

519
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 2: every time I talk about come on this show, somebody

520
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,400
Speaker 2: gets up in the subreddit and they're like, I wish

521
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:43,159
Speaker 2: they wouldn't make juvenile jokes about come. It's not very funny.

522
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 3: It's exceptionally funny to make you.

523
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, look, I am never going to stop making jokes

524
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:50,920
Speaker 2: about come, and I'm never going to stop telling people

525
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,440
Speaker 2: that when Mitch McConnell comes, all that exits his penis

526
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 2: is a mix of dry scabs and spider legs.

527
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 3: That that well, no juvenile, is still funny.

528
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 2: It is.

529
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:05,160
Speaker 3: It's funny and true, exceptionally funny. Yeah, it's true, and

530
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:07,400
Speaker 3: he can sew us over it, will take him to court.

531
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:10,440
Speaker 3: Shows show us the evidence, Mitch.

532
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, show us the evidence, Mitch, show us the evidence

533
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 2: that when you come, the dry scabs exiting year urethra

534
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,919
Speaker 2: don't make a sound exactly like crabs scuttling on a

535
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:25,400
Speaker 2: soap stone bed. Prove it to me. Prove it to me, Mitch.

536
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 3: I now physically and will.

537
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 2: Would you like a cigarette?

538
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 3: Yeah? I think I've been traumatized on a level. Yeah,

539
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 3: I'd like to shorten my life.

540
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 2: Yes, well, why don't you reach for a lucky instead

541
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 2: of a sweet.

542
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 3: That will help me stay maintain my girl physique.

543
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 2: So as we've just come back, the Surgeon General has

544
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 2: been like, this is going to lower the moral tone

545
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 2: of women. And again, I just so that I'm not mistaken.

546
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 2: Cigarettes are bad. Don't smoke them. These people are technically

547
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 2: in the right, but they're in the right for the

548
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 2: wrong reasons usually, so fuck them. I'm going to quote

549
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 2: again from Alan Brandt here, another supporter of the legislation,

550
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 2: noted that the fingers of our girls are being varnished

551
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 2: with the stains of those harmful little instruments of destruction,

552
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 2: just as earlier opponents of the cigarette had done. Senator

553
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 2: Southwook argued that the use of the cigarette violated the

554
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 2: liberties of non smokers, which is fair, offended moral sensibilities

555
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 2: which is unfair, and polluted public space, which is we'll

556
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 2: call that one mixed. We cannot bring our wives and

557
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 2: daughters to the city, he wrote, and cannot come along

558
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 2: without encountering tobacco smoke everywhere. Is it that saturates our

559
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 2: clothing and nauseates us personal liberty. Ours is as inviolate

560
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 2: or as or should be as theirs.

561
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 3: Amazing. Yeah, when industry is ripping children's arms off their body.

562
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, No, people are just burning pure petroleum jelly

563
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 2: in the back of a fucking model ty Yeah.

564
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, just pouring some lead into the reserve lead tank.

565
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 2: Yeah again, fucking nineteen twenty two. Your worst encounter is

566
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 2: not going to be with tobacco smoke in the streets of society.

567
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 3: The coal burning colonialism factory isn't a problem. It's women

568
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 3: smoking that we need to worry about.

569
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 2: Now. By nineteen twenty two, sixteen states had banned a

570
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 2: restrict the cigarette sales and promotion, but none of these

571
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 2: restrictions lasted long. The disaster that was prohibition and the

572
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 2: growing number of tobacco addicts made the anti smoking cause untenable.

573
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 2: A chief issue with the fight to restrict smoking was

574
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 2: the fact that it rested mostly on moral panic grounds.

575
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 2: Right again, If all of these people are saying smoking

576
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 2: is horrible for your health, and I'm sure we shouldn't

577
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 2: be doing it, that's one thing. But a lot of

578
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 2: them are being like, well, women shouldn't be smoking. It's

579
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 2: bad for kins to see it it's going to stain

580
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 2: in their hands. They don't have at this point, they

581
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 2: don't have widely agreed upon medical evidence that smoking is

582
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 2: bad for you, And in fact, a lot of doctors

583
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 2: will argue that smoking is if not healthy, then not

584
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 2: a serious harm. It was not as common in this

585
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 2: period for you have doctors be like, smoking clears your lungs,

586
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 2: But most of them tended to be like, well, it's

587
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 2: not that bad for you, right, you know, It's like

588
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 2: it's like it is like eating candy, right, that's what

589
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 2: they It's not like eating candy. Please. I'm not saying

590
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 2: that someone's gonna get really angry at me. I'm just saying,

591
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 2: if you're a doctor in the twenties, odds are rather

592
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 2: than saying smoking is bad for you, saying like, well,

593
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 2: it's probably okay to have the occasional cigarette as part

594
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 2: of a balanced diet or whatever, you know. Right, And again,

595
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 2: doctors are heavily debating as the thirties dawn whether or

596
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 2: not smoking causes cancer. There were studies by this point

597
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 2: that showed a correlation between self reported smoking habits and

598
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 2: lung cancer, and by the nineteen twenties, rates of lung

599
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 2: cancer had started to soar. Given all of this, it

600
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 2: might seem easy to prove a link between cigarettes and

601
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 2: lung cancer, but it's not. All you've got in the

602
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 2: twenties is that there's a correlation between the two. But

603
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 2: obviously cigarettes aren't the only thing that's been introduced to

604
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 2: modern life in the early part of the twentieth century,

605
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 2: Right there's cars now, Suddenly people are getting a whole

606
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 2: bunch of different medications that didn't used to exist. All

607
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 2: sorts of shit is around that just wasn't before. So

608
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 2: how do you know, how do you know think about this?

609
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 2: How can you prove if you're just a dude in

610
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 2: nineteen twenty fucking two, that the thing causing lung cancer

611
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 2: in your friends is the cigarette and not the car

612
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 2: or the fucking fluorescent light bulbs, right, Like, you don't know,

613
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 2: there's not evidence at this point, you know, Yeah, it is.

614
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 3: Part of this industrial my identity again.

615
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot has changed really quickly, and there's actually

616
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 2: there's some surprisingly logical reasons to question the early science.

617
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 2: One doctor and critic over fears of cigarette use. One

618
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 2: of the guys who's arguing against the people saying that

619
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 2: lung cancer and smoking are correlated. One of the things

620
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 2: he says is that, like, well, when we get lung

621
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 2: cancer patients, they have a lung and one they have

622
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 2: a tumor and one lung or the other. Very few

623
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 2: of them have tumors in both lungs. But when you smoke,

624
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 2: the smoke is drawn into both lungs equally. So if

625
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 2: smoking is causing lung cancer, why wouldn't it be causing

626
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 2: it in both lungs at the same time. Obviously we

627
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 2: know that's just the way cancer works. Right, But again,

628
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 2: based on the knowledge at the time, that's not a

629
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 2: bad point to make. Right, he's wrong, but you can

630
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 2: see how a person who is not like in the

631
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 2: pocket of big tobacco could make that stake. Yeah, his

632
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 2: reasoning is not inherently unsound. Right, he's wrong, but not

633
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 2: because he's like again, later all the scientists on the

634
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 2: other side of this will be doing something fundamentally dishonest.

635
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 2: These are just people trying to understand the human body

636
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 2: in a period in which we don't have that much

637
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 2: information about it. Other scientists would argue that the rise

638
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 2: in lung cancer was attributed to the fact that life

639
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 2: expectancy had risen a lot in the first quarter of

640
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 2: the twentieth century, people were getting more weird cancers, they argued,

641
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 2: because people were living longer. Maybe lung cancer has always

642
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 2: been normal once you hit a certain age, and we

643
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 2: just didn't have that many people reaching it. You know, again,

644
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 2: these are not inherently illogical arguments. Now. There were, however,

645
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 2: doctors early on who were who figured out what was happening,

646
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 2: who knew and who put together that there was a

647
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,720
Speaker 2: link between smoking and lung cancer, But it took data

648
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 2: a long time to catch up with that. For one thing,

649
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 2: epidemiology is in its infancy in this period of time,

650
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:16,800
Speaker 2: the first small batch studies, and by the late twenties,

651
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 2: we have studies that show a correlation between smoking and

652
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 2: lung cancer, but there's no control group so all they

653
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 2: show it, So there's no group of people who don't

654
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,280
Speaker 2: smoke to see what their lung cancer rates are, because

655
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 2: that's not a normal part of medical science. Yet they're

656
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:33,879
Speaker 2: starting to do that. They're figuring out like, oh, yeah,

657
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,360
Speaker 2: you should have fucking control groups in your medical studies,

658
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,400
Speaker 2: but it's not the thing that you just do. Derigor

659
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:41,839
Speaker 2: At this point in time, it becomes that partly as

660
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 2: a result of this research, and in fact, there's a

661
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,239
Speaker 2: nineteen twenty eight article in the New England Journal of

662
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 2: Medicine in which that points out like it shows a

663
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 2: link between smoking and lung cancer, but it also points

664
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 2: out that their study and other similar studies are of

665
00:34:56,640 --> 00:35:00,280
Speaker 2: little value without similar studies on individuals without cancer, without

666
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,319
Speaker 2: control groups. Right, So part of why that becomes more

667
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:05,839
Speaker 2: common in this period is scientists trying to figure out

668
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 2: if there's a link between smoking and lung cancer. The

669
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 2: scientists to write that nineteen twenty eight study, Herbert Lombard and

670
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 2: paroled during carried out their own small two hundred person

671
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 2: study with a control group, and this is the first

672
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 2: good quality study we have that shows lung cancer. Is

673
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:23,720
Speaker 2: it shows a bunch of things? Number one, I shouldn't

674
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 2: say shows. It suggests a bunch of things. Number one,

675
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 2: It suggests that lung cancer is not a contagious disease.

676
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:32,360
Speaker 2: Which how would you have known that, you know, without psyche,

677
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:34,799
Speaker 2: you don't know that people aren't giving it to each other, Right,

678
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 2: that it's not some weird thing that people got when

679
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 2: they started walking in the Amazon or whatever. Right, how

680
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,319
Speaker 2: would you know they know they find they or at

681
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 2: least the data suggests that it's also there's not a

682
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:48,719
Speaker 2: correlation between lung cancer and low quality housing, which was

683
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:50,879
Speaker 2: another thing people didn't know. It's something about the way

684
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 2: we insulate our homes, you know. They also find out

685
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 2: that it's not associated with constipation, which was a thing

686
00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 2: that some doc And again we can laugh about that,

687
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 2: but how would you know if you didn't do the study. Yeah.

688
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:06,880
Speaker 2: One of the primary, like damning thing the study finds

689
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 2: is that self reported heavy smokers are twenty seven percent

690
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 2: likely to get lung cancer. This is the first scientifically

691
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:17,399
Speaker 2: solid evidence linking cigarettes to lung cancer. Now, two hundred

692
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 2: person study with a two hundred person control group. That's

693
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,959
Speaker 2: not definitive, right, That's enough to justify further research. Sure,

694
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,239
Speaker 2: but that's not a huge study. The nineteen thirties are

695
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 2: what we're going to see the first attempts on a

696
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:31,280
Speaker 2: large scale to document the relationship between cigarettes and cancer.

697
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,400
Speaker 2: The impetus to this, the impetus for this research actually

698
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:36,720
Speaker 2: comes from one of the few industries that can rifle

699
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:40,799
Speaker 2: big tobacco for sheer evil, the insurance industry. They are

700
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:42,799
Speaker 2: the people who are going to break them because they

701
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 2: see this early research and they're like, wait a second,

702
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 2: we're paying a shitload of money out on all these

703
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 2: fuckers dieing a lung cancer. If cigarettes cause it, we

704
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:51,920
Speaker 2: need to be charging people more if they smoke, right, Like,

705
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,759
Speaker 2: they're doing it for evil reasons, but it is important

706
00:36:55,800 --> 00:37:01,800
Speaker 2: research cos god' zillar exactly. So one of the chief

707
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,880
Speaker 2: drivers of this is a guy named Frederick Hoffman, who

708
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 2: is a statician at Prudential, and Hoffman notices in nineteen

709
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,720
Speaker 2: thirty one that a lot of fucking life insurance policies

710
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 2: are being filled for dead lung cancer patients. If smoking

711
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 2: was the cause, then again you're going to need to

712
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 2: restructure the way premiums work. A lot of money is

713
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,399
Speaker 2: at stake, which is obviously what interests Prudential. They don't

714
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:25,359
Speaker 2: care about the cost of human life. So the thing

715
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 2: that Hoffman notices is that in nineteen fifteen, the lung

716
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,879
Speaker 2: cancer rate stands at about point seven people per thousand people. Right,

717
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:35,320
Speaker 2: about point seven people per every thousand in the population

718
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 2: are likely to get lung cancer. By nineteen twenty, it's

719
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 2: risen to one point one per thousand. It's one point

720
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 2: six per thousand by nineteen twenty four, and one point

721
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,759
Speaker 2: nine per thousand by nineteen twenty eight. That means in

722
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 2: thirteen years the rate of lung cancer has nearly tripled.

723
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,360
Speaker 2: Now Hoffman is not bound by the ethical constraints of

724
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:55,840
Speaker 2: a doctor, right, he doesn't have to wait until he

725
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 2: has really good data to be like smoking causes lung cancer.

726
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 2: He sees this, he puts two and two together, and

727
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:05,239
Speaker 2: he becomes the first prominent pig figure to publish a

728
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 2: claim that tobacco use is associated with a heightened rate

729
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,399
Speaker 2: of cancer and early death. And he's doing it again

730
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 2: to warn insurance companies. A new wave of studies follows,

731
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 2: and as the nineteen thirties gives away to the forties,

732
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 2: the tobacco industry keeps a worried, watchful eye on this

733
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:23,400
Speaker 2: emerging science. They also start exploding their advertising budgets in

734
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 2: order to kind of make up for the increasing talk

735
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 2: in the background about maybe cigarettes aren't so great too

736
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,279
Speaker 2: for us. In nineteen eleven, prior to the bust of

737
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 2: the American Tobacco Trust, the entire cigarette industry profited about

738
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:39,319
Speaker 2: thirteen million dollars a year. By nineteen eighteen, the big

739
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,360
Speaker 2: five tobacco companies were spending more than thirteen million dollars

740
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 2: every year just in ads. In doing so, they'd helped

741
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,319
Speaker 2: create the very language of American culture. And I'm going

742
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:49,840
Speaker 2: to quote from a write up in the Journal of

743
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 2: Marketing Theory and Practice by Richard Pole. Cigarette sellers were

744
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:57,360
Speaker 2: among the most enthusiastic pioneers in the use of network

745
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 2: broadcasting for coast to coast advertising. Nineteen thirty American Tobacco,

746
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 2: Brown and Williamson, P. Lrillard and R. J. Reynolds were

747
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 2: all buying to network radio time. There has been no

748
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 2: greater enthusiasts for radio broadcast advertising the George W. Hill

749
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 2: of the ATC, whose business for the first five months

750
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 2: of nineteen thirty s are pasted all records. The company

751
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,920
Speaker 2: sponsors the Lucky Strike Dance Orchestra in three hour broadcasts

752
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:24,280
Speaker 2: each week. Lucky Strike sponsored many radio comedies and musical shows,

753
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 2: such as Jack Benny and the Ka Kaser College of

754
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 2: Music Musical Knowledge, and the best known and longest running

755
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 2: popular musical shows, Lucky Strike's Hit Parade. This show started

756
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 2: in nineteen twenty eight and ran into the nineteen fifties

757
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 2: on television. It featured teen idol Frank Sinatra when he

758
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:42,319
Speaker 2: was launching his career. So popular was this show in

759
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 2: nineteen thirty eight that a sweepstakes promotion offering free cartons

760
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 2: of Luckies for the names of the three most popular

761
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:51,720
Speaker 2: tunes drew nearly seven million entries per week. The Lucky

762
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 2: Strike Hit Parade was the first show to rank popular

763
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 2: music releases in an ongoing basis. This is where we

764
00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:00,400
Speaker 2: get the top forty. The entire structure of them musical

765
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 2: industry comes out of Lucky Strikes.

766
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:04,360
Speaker 3: Hit The Yeah, so they gave us all those crappy

767
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:07,840
Speaker 3: Christmas number one singles, And it seems like podcasts.

768
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 2: And podcasts we all owe a debt to Lucky Strike

769
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:12,280
Speaker 2: every time.

770
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 3: You read just saying lucky well in more ways than one,

771
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 3: I see listening.

772
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:20,840
Speaker 2: Let's let's all give the good folks at Lucky Strike

773
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,399
Speaker 2: a solid go ahead and pick out a pack right

774
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:24,840
Speaker 2: now that you don't have to smoke, and give it

775
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 2: to a kid you know they love to smoke. Sophie,

776
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 2: what I'm done with my script. I'm throwing the ads now.

777
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 2: I'm throwing the ads like the good men at R. J.

778
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:40,239
Speaker 2: Reynolds and Laura Lard and the other greats of the

779
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:44,400
Speaker 2: tobacco industry taught me to Sophie, I'm I'm I'm honoring

780
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:52,800
Speaker 2: our ancestors. We're back.

781
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 3: So we had a cigarette and we're ready to go.

782
00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:01,960
Speaker 2: Cigarettes have now just invented the modern music industry.

783
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 3: So Lunatic's taken over the asylum house.

784
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 2: The lunatics had taken over.

785
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 3: A couple of lucky strikes. They felt better and they

786
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:11,280
Speaker 3: said a sign them.

787
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that is a lucky strike, if you ask me.

788
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:14,879
Speaker 3: So.

789
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 2: The need to capture smokers young, because market research had

790
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 2: shown that people tended to be brand loyal, also helped

791
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:24,840
Speaker 2: to create the modern conception of ad demographics. Right, advertisers

792
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 2: start learning how to differentiate and split over. You know,

793
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 2: the idea that like the eighteen to thirty five males

794
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 2: is like the most valuable that comes out here, right,

795
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:35,719
Speaker 2: And it's because like those are, that's when you got

796
00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 2: to get them fucker smoking right earlier possible.

797
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's ready to keep.

798
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:44,360
Speaker 2: Ideally, I'll like eleven or twelve. They advertise a lot

799
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 2: in colleges, and they also it leads tobacco companies to

800
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 2: steer more and more towards funding children's entertainment. This starts

801
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 2: with the comics pages a syndicated weekly pop collection called

802
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:58,800
Speaker 2: Puck is like massive for cigarette ads, but as Poli

803
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:02,720
Speaker 2: rights and quickly expand beyond that quote. In the nineteen fifties,

804
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:06,400
Speaker 2: many brands used cartoon trade characters in their advertising. The

805
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:08,760
Speaker 2: ads on Lucky Strikes Hit Parade for a while featured

806
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:11,640
Speaker 2: a cute animated character called Scoop, who, through the then

807
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:15,720
Speaker 2: impressive technical feet of superimposition, appeared on a on screen

808
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 2: with the show's star Dorothy Collins. So that's where we

809
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:21,840
Speaker 2: get who framed Roger Rabbit? Motherfucker's cigarettes taught us how

810
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:23,719
Speaker 2: to do that?

811
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, gave us avata.

812
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:31,400
Speaker 2: Philip Morris's us Philip Morris's cartoons when advertising on Philip

813
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:34,719
Speaker 2: Morris used cartoons when advertising on I Love Lucy. Laura

814
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:37,800
Speaker 2: Lard created TV cartoon ads for Old Gold that featured

815
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 2: the voices of their Honeymooners stars Jackie Gleeson and Art Carney.

816
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:44,719
Speaker 2: This presaged the Winston spots that employed the animated hit

817
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 2: characters from The Flintstones, a totally cartoon show they sponsored,

818
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 2: whose voices, structure, and sense of humor all imitated the Honeymooners.

819
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 2: And I think a lot of people are vaguely aware

820
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 2: that The Flintstones used to have cigarette ads. You knew that, right, No, whoa,

821
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:03,600
Speaker 2: that's why it was created. The Flintstones were made as

822
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:07,319
Speaker 2: a cigarette ad. And to get an idea for how

823
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,279
Speaker 2: blatant this advertising was, you need to see some old

824
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:12,720
Speaker 2: episodes of The Flintstones, and I think this one includes

825
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 2: a representative scene you should know to understand what's happening

826
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:17,680
Speaker 2: on screen. Right at the start of this, we see

827
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 2: Fred and Barney kind of like hanging out in the

828
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:22,520
Speaker 2: yard on their asses while their wives are doing like

829
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 2: yard work and house chores. So they're like chilling out

830
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:26,239
Speaker 2: and watching their wives work.

831
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 3: Good stuff.

832
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:36,879
Speaker 2: They sure work, God, don't they're them work so hard? Yeah?

833
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 2: Me tool and let's go around back. Well, we can't see.

834
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 3: Him, do we want to do something?

835
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:47,360
Speaker 2: Fred? Okay, how's about taking on that? I got a

836
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 2: better idea.

837
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 3: Let's take a Winston break.

838
00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:55,719
Speaker 2: From the cigarette that delivers flavor twenty times a pack

839
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 2: makes the big taste difference, and only Winston has it

840
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,919
Speaker 2: up front where it comes here ahead of the pure

841
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 2: white silt Winston packs, rich tobaccos, specially selected and specially Wow,

842
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:18,759
Speaker 2: that's a good flavor. Room. Yeah, it's still going yeah,

843
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:26,360
Speaker 2: like uh cigarette. Uh yeah, that is a lot of

844
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:27,799
Speaker 2: cigarette advertising.

845
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 3: Yeah. I was. At first, I was appalled by the

846
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,759
Speaker 3: records of it, but then just the duration of it. Yeah.

847
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:37,319
Speaker 2: Wow, they really were committed to selling kids cigarettes.

848
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:40,760
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, whist and also not a great name compared

849
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 3: to the Camel Camel Marlborough. Yeah, just a dude called

850
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:49,400
Speaker 3: Winston with little imagination. Yeah wow, that was amazing.

851
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:51,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the best. Yeah.

852
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 3: That is like Alex Jones here just transissued from content

853
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:56,680
Speaker 3: to ads.

854
00:44:56,920 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 2: Fucking Barney Rubble wants to get your ass into a

855
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:00,960
Speaker 2: pack of Winston's.

856
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:03,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's going to be doing what is it, fucking

857
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 3: silver or whatever Alex Jokes.

858
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 2: Is trying to sell you now, colloidal silver? Yes, to

859
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 2: see past that you can shoot up your ass.

860
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 3: I don't know, yeah, nor do I care. I don't

861
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 3: think our listenership overlapped, so no one else knows either,

862
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 3: So it's fine.

863
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:18,719
Speaker 2: No, our listeners are buying a lot of gold now

864
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 2: because of those gold ads running.

865
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, well that's good to say. Success. We have

866
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 3: to get him back to the season.

867
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 1: Yeah.

868
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:26,279
Speaker 2: We love we love the gold ad people. You know,

869
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:28,239
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna I'm gonna do a free ad. Right now,

870
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 2: buy gold. It's the cigarettes of currency. Well, actually that's cigarettes.

871
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 2: Gold's almost as valuable as cigarettes and the pinch. So

872
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 2: it pick some up today, smoke it. Why don't you

873
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:43,439
Speaker 2: you know what, James, I have an idea. Why don't

874
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 2: we make a lot of money. We get cigarettes, grind

875
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:49,440
Speaker 2: up gold into them, pour gold flakes into the cigarettes,

876
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:51,840
Speaker 2: and then sell them to rich assholes who have taped.

877
00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:54,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's definitely. There's like a thing, isn't it like

878
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:56,720
Speaker 3: a vodka? Don't think that has got.

879
00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:58,840
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, there's a couple of liquors that have.

880
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, you may, it's not necessary, Sophie, but I need to.

881
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 1: Signy so many gold gold unussary gold.

882
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 2: So you know how there's you know, Robert getting script

883
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:16,120
Speaker 2: poured out some.

884
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 3: Gold liquor and uh yeah right, I'm back.

885
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:21,160
Speaker 2: Wrap a cigarette.

886
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:24,520
Speaker 3: Yeah there was no gold, but I've got my glass

887
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:26,320
Speaker 3: of lead.

888
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:31,320
Speaker 2: And so during the late forties to the early fifties,

889
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,360
Speaker 2: the science coming out about cigarettes and cancer starts to

890
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 2: look worse and worse. The RJ. Reynolds Company launches a

891
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:41,280
Speaker 2: new campaign for camel cigarettes in nineteen forty six, centered

892
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:44,319
Speaker 2: around the slogan more doctor smoked camels than any other

893
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:47,719
Speaker 2: cigarette six years. This is like, this is their main

894
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:49,720
Speaker 2: advertising push for six years.

895
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:51,880
Speaker 3: Dentist and tooth brush thing with cigarettes.

896
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:56,879
Speaker 2: Amazing, great, Yeah, absolutely, yes, the cigarette that nine out

897
00:46:56,880 --> 00:47:00,479
Speaker 2: of ten doctors recommend. Reynolds backs up their claim that's

898
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 2: more stick doctors smoke camels than any other cigarette, with

899
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:07,080
Speaker 2: surveys that they said had been conducted by quote three

900
00:47:07,239 --> 00:47:11,800
Speaker 2: leading independent research organizations. Now they don't name these organizations.

901
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 2: One representative ad claims that a survey of one hundred

902
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 2: and thirteen five hundred and ninety seven doctors from quote

903
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:21,759
Speaker 2: every branch of medicine had shown that Camels were the

904
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:24,880
Speaker 2: brand most often smoked by doctors.

905
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 3: That's what you want is a cigarette that your pediatrist chooses?

906
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, really, yeah, I want to know. Yeah, nobody,

907
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:35,279
Speaker 2: nobody knows what you should be smoking better than a

908
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 2: fucking proctologist. That that's that's that's who's got it down. Yeah,

909
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 2: as an obstetricians chooses Winston's. Yeah, that would be quite funny.

910
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 1: Boy.

911
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:50,759
Speaker 2: Women seem to really want a cigarette after giving birth.

912
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:51,880
Speaker 2: Probably good for you.

913
00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:56,680
Speaker 3: Why don't you drink? So?

914
00:47:58,280 --> 00:47:58,480
Speaker 1: R J.

915
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:03,400
Speaker 2: Reynolds assured, cutustomers that this survey, which totally existed, was

916
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:07,439
Speaker 2: an actual fact and not a casual claim, and their

917
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:11,120
Speaker 2: competitors were all doing the same thing. American Tobacco present

918
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 2: president George Washington Hill contracted the legendary ad executive Albert

919
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:17,640
Speaker 2: Lasker and tasked him to come up with a reason

920
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 2: why customers should smoke his cigarettes. And I want to

921
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 2: quote now from a write up in the American Journal

922
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:25,799
Speaker 2: of Public Health. With no real scientific evidence to back

923
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:29,239
Speaker 2: their claims, American Tobacco insisted that the toasting process that

924
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:33,720
Speaker 2: Lucky Strikes Tobacco underwent decreased throat irritation. In fact, Lucky

925
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 2: Strikes curing process did not significantly differ from that of

926
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:41,239
Speaker 2: other brands. Related campaigns emphasized that Luckies would help consumers,

927
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:44,480
Speaker 2: especially women, their new market stay trimmed since they could

928
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:46,880
Speaker 2: reach for a Lucky instead of a suite. Along with

929
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 2: these persistent health claims, a typical advertisement from nineteen thirty

930
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:53,840
Speaker 2: boldly stated that twenty six hundred and seventy nine physicians

931
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:59,759
Speaker 2: say Luckies they're less irritating. Good Great now, James, do

932
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:01,920
Speaker 2: you want to know how they'd gotten the information that

933
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:04,400
Speaker 2: Luckies were seen as less irritating by doctors.

934
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:07,960
Speaker 3: Did they send them a capacut of lucky strikes? And also,

935
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:10,879
Speaker 3: shit they did.

936
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:15,239
Speaker 2: Yeah. Their advertising agency, Lloyd Thomas and Logan sent cigarette

937
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 2: cartons to physicians in nineteen twenty six, nineteen twenty seven,

938
00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:20,840
Speaker 2: and nineteen twenty eight and then asked them to answer

939
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:24,000
Speaker 2: our Lucky strike cigarettes less irritating to tender throats than

940
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:26,839
Speaker 2: other cigarettes. And the doctors were like, yeah, I want

941
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:27,799
Speaker 2: more free cigarettes.

942
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 3: Sure, yeah, I what's free cigarette bolk school. I'll take

943
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 3: that one, great good. That's how science is done.

944
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:36,000
Speaker 2: That is how science is done.

945
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:36,640
Speaker 3: Yep.

946
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:40,720
Speaker 2: Now, touting the toasting process and the accompanying cover letter,

947
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:44,360
Speaker 2: advertising executive Thomas Logan pointed out the virtues of lucky

948
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 2: strikes and claimed that they had quote heard from a

949
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:48,840
Speaker 2: good many people that they could smoke lucky strikes with

950
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 2: perfect comfort to their throats. American Tobacco used doctor's responses

951
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:55,400
Speaker 2: to this survey in order to push the claim that

952
00:49:55,480 --> 00:50:00,000
Speaker 2: lucky strikes are less irritating. The toasting, as they explained,

953
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:03,400
Speaker 2: it is quote your throat protection against irritation against cough.

954
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:07,560
Speaker 2: Thank god, thank god they figured out toasting, Otherwise these

955
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:09,160
Speaker 2: cigarettes might really are hurt people.

956
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:11,480
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, you got to toast them. That's how

957
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:13,319
Speaker 3: you just popic up the cigarettes and your toast it.

958
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:17,560
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, no counser for you. So.

959
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:22,440
Speaker 2: Self reported adults smoking peaked in the early nineteen fifties

960
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:25,960
Speaker 2: at about forty five percent of the population. Big Tobacco's

961
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:28,440
Speaker 2: ploy to buy up doctors had worked for a while,

962
00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:31,440
Speaker 2: but in late nineteen fifty three, the first irrefutable studies

963
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:34,640
Speaker 2: linking lung cancer to tobacco use were published, to tremendous

964
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 2: public interest. Major peer reviewed journal studies had tied not

965
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:42,720
Speaker 2: just cancer, but cardiac disease and serious respiratory illness to smoking.

966
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:45,719
Speaker 2: The situation was serious enough that the head executives of

967
00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:48,480
Speaker 2: the big five tobacco companies all came together in December

968
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:51,080
Speaker 2: of nineteen fifty three to figure out how to respond

969
00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:53,680
Speaker 2: to this news. They picked the Plaza Hotel in New

970
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:56,000
Speaker 2: York City as the place to map out their strategy,

971
00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:58,360
Speaker 2: and it is possible that no other location in the

972
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 2: United States, including the pentag Gone, has been used to

973
00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:04,040
Speaker 2: make plans that ended with a greater death toll. The

974
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:07,480
Speaker 2: master of the moment was John W. Hill, president of

975
00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:10,360
Speaker 2: the biggest pr firm in the country. Hill and Knowlton

976
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:13,640
Speaker 2: now John had been born in Indiana in eighteen ninety.

977
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:16,400
Speaker 2: He'd spent most of his early career working as a journalist.

978
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:18,920
Speaker 2: He's a journalist for eighteen years, working his way up

979
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:21,600
Speaker 2: the ladder to become an editor and a popular columnist.

980
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 2: In nineteen twenty seven, he blazed a trail that generations

981
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:27,880
Speaker 2: of soulless hacks would follow, and he decided to start

982
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 2: a PR firm. By the time nineteen fifty three year

983
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:33,160
Speaker 2: rolled around, it was the largest PR firm on the planet.

984
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:36,360
Speaker 2: Hill was worth the money, and in that hotel conference

985
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:38,200
Speaker 2: room he laid out the bones of what would be

986
00:51:38,239 --> 00:51:42,200
Speaker 2: known as Plan Whitecoat. The basic idea was to create

987
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:45,919
Speaker 2: an industry sponsored research entity, a think take of scientists

988
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:49,719
Speaker 2: funded by tobacco money but ostensibly independent. This would allow

989
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:52,000
Speaker 2: big tobacco to claim they were taking fears of lung

990
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 2: cancer seriously, while also providing them with disinformation to muddy

991
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:59,040
Speaker 2: the waters by painting the existing studies is insufficient. I'm

992
00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:01,560
Speaker 2: going to quote, yeah, it's awesome, it's so good.

993
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:04,200
Speaker 3: No one's ever done it, since no one.

994
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:06,600
Speaker 2: This is not this is not the thing that's going

995
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:08,919
Speaker 2: to end all life. On this planet. No, he'll did

996
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:11,040
Speaker 2: not just build the apocalypse bomb.

997
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:14,600
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, Jesus Christ. Yeah. Well they've given us everything

998
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:17,040
Speaker 3: from Pokemon cars to fucking timate change.

999
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:20,080
Speaker 2: It's incredible. Cigarettes are amazing je.

1000
00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:23,879
Speaker 3: Yes, wow, yeah, yeah, they are something.

1001
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:27,080
Speaker 2: One of the single most important inventions in the history

1002
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:27,760
Speaker 2: of the planet.

1003
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:31,439
Speaker 3: Yeah. God, and people die of starvation. You don't. Here

1004
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:34,839
Speaker 3: we are. We've made a cancer steak, and we've we've

1005
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:37,200
Speaker 3: created new and exciting ways to lie about it.

1006
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:39,160
Speaker 2: It's amazing, it's so cool.

1007
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:40,400
Speaker 3: I'm kind of close him.

1008
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:43,920
Speaker 2: Who could full it? God, what a great product. I'm

1009
00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:46,000
Speaker 2: going to quote now from a twenty twelve article in

1010
00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:49,280
Speaker 2: the American Journal of Public Health. The industry had supported

1011
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:52,360
Speaker 2: some individual research in recent years, but Hill's proposal offered

1012
00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:54,720
Speaker 2: the potential of a research program that would be controlled

1013
00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 2: by the industry yet promoted as independent. This was a

1014
00:52:57,640 --> 00:53:01,840
Speaker 2: public relations masters stroke. Hill stood that you're giving Yeah.

1015
00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:04,800
Speaker 2: Hill understood that simply giving money to scientists through the

1016
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:07,360
Speaker 2: National Institutes of Health or some other entity, for example,

1017
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:11,400
Speaker 2: offered little opportunity to shape the public relations environment. However,

1018
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:15,080
Speaker 2: offering funds directly to university based scientists would enlist their

1019
00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:18,200
Speaker 2: support in dependence. Moreover, it would have the added benefit

1020
00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:21,719
Speaker 2: of making academic institutions partners with the tobacco industry in

1021
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:26,800
Speaker 2: its moment of crisis. Hill and his clients had no interest. Yeah.

1022
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:29,080
Speaker 2: In answer, Hill and his clients had no interest in

1023
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:32,560
Speaker 2: answering a scientific question. Their goal was to maintain vigorous

1024
00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:35,440
Speaker 2: control over the research program to use science in the

1025
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:38,960
Speaker 2: service of public relations. Although the tobacco executives had proposed

1026
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:42,480
Speaker 2: forming a Cigarette Information Committee dedicated to defending smoking against

1027
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:46,360
Speaker 2: the medical findings, Hill argued aggressively for adding research to

1028
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:49,160
Speaker 2: the committee's title and agenda. It is believed he wrote

1029
00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:51,400
Speaker 2: that the word research is needed in the name to

1030
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:54,799
Speaker 2: give weight and added credence to the committee's statements. Hill

1031
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:57,440
Speaker 2: understood that his clients should be viewed as embracing science

1032
00:53:57,560 --> 00:54:02,120
Speaker 2: rather than dismissing it. Now again, Hill's a journalist, right,

1033
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:03,640
Speaker 2: That's part of how he's able to do this. He

1034
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:06,880
Speaker 2: understands how to communicate, He understands how people read things.

1035
00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:11,120
Speaker 2: One of the first things he emphasized to the industry

1036
00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:13,799
Speaker 2: leaders was that they had to stop competing with each

1037
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:16,719
Speaker 2: other trying to move cartons by convincing customers that their

1038
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:19,640
Speaker 2: smokes were more soothing or healthier than the others. This

1039
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:22,680
Speaker 2: was bad, right, Arguing like lucky strikes are healthier than

1040
00:54:22,719 --> 00:54:25,400
Speaker 2: Marlborough's is bad for the whole industry, so we have

1041
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:28,399
Speaker 2: to stop it. The key to surviving, this Hill told them,

1042
00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:31,719
Speaker 2: was collective action, and one that looked like a commitment

1043
00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:35,000
Speaker 2: to public welfare while actually doing everything possible to harm

1044
00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:38,640
Speaker 2: public welfare. The Tobacco Industry Research Committee was formed in

1045
00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:41,560
Speaker 2: nineteen fifty four and announced its existence with full page

1046
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:45,160
Speaker 2: ads and more than four hundred newspapers. This ad, known

1047
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:48,760
Speaker 2: as the Frank Statement, claimed that tobacco companies were deeply

1048
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:51,840
Speaker 2: concerned about the welfare of their customers and would pursue

1049
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:53,640
Speaker 2: any end to get to the bottom of this whole

1050
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:57,799
Speaker 2: tobacco equals cancer thing. Quote. We accept an interest in

1051
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:01,319
Speaker 2: people's health as a basic responsibility paramount to every other

1052
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:04,279
Speaker 2: consideration in our business. We believe the products we make

1053
00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:07,000
Speaker 2: are not injurious to health. We always have and always

1054
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:09,680
Speaker 2: will cooperate closely with those whose task it is to

1055
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:11,160
Speaker 2: safeguard the public health.

1056
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:16,759
Speaker 3: That's good, great, yeah, show very honest, very straightforward.

1057
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:20,640
Speaker 2: So despite these high minded claims, the TRC's agenda was

1058
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:23,480
Speaker 2: laid out by Hill before he consulted a single scientist.

1059
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:27,480
Speaker 2: The executive director of the organization, W. T. Hoyt, had

1060
00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:31,040
Speaker 2: no scientific background. His previous job had been selling ads

1061
00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:34,560
Speaker 2: for the Saturday Evening Post. Within his first few months

1062
00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:37,919
Speaker 2: of operation, Hoyt and other executives of the TRC put

1063
00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:40,640
Speaker 2: out a statement directly responding to studies that purported to

1064
00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:43,680
Speaker 2: show a link between cigarettes and disease. It is an

1065
00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:46,520
Speaker 2: obligation of the Tobacco Industry Research Committee at this time

1066
00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:49,440
Speaker 2: to remind the public of these essential points. One, there

1067
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:52,120
Speaker 2: is no conclusive scientific proof of a link between smoking

1068
00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:55,680
Speaker 2: and cancer. Two, medical research points to many possible causes

1069
00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:58,479
Speaker 2: of cancer, and three, but millions of people who derive

1070
00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:01,680
Speaker 2: pleasure and satisfaction from SMI can be reassured that every

1071
00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:03,879
Speaker 2: scientific means will be used to get oh, the facts

1072
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:04,960
Speaker 2: as soon as possible.

1073
00:56:06,719 --> 00:56:08,360
Speaker 3: Great, Yeah, yeah, it's.

1074
00:56:08,239 --> 00:56:10,080
Speaker 2: Gotta go well, James, it's gonna go really well.

1075
00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:11,520
Speaker 3: Yep, I can see this anying. Well.

1076
00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:12,200
Speaker 1: So.

1077
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:15,880
Speaker 2: The first scientific director appointed to the TRC was Clarence

1078
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:19,880
Speaker 2: Cook Little, an extremely prominent biologist and geneticists who had

1079
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:23,360
Speaker 2: become extremely prominent because he was a popular eugenicist.

1080
00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:24,359
Speaker 3: That good.

1081
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:32,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's really funny because Cook like a

1082
00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:35,759
Speaker 4: little the reason he believes that cigarettes did because he's

1083
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:38,359
Speaker 4: a He truly believes that the people who connect him

1084
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:41,440
Speaker 4: to cancer is wrong because he believes that lung cancer

1085
00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:44,560
Speaker 4: is genetic, so it can't be caused by an environmental factor,

1086
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:47,040
Speaker 4: like inhaling cigarettes a year.

1087
00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:49,839
Speaker 2: It's got to be. It's gotta be something to do

1088
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:52,360
Speaker 2: with the fact that certain races are more likely to

1089
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:56,680
Speaker 2: get cancer. Oh god, it is one thing I'll have

1090
00:56:56,719 --> 00:56:59,480
Speaker 2: to you got to say for a racist, this guy

1091
00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:02,759
Speaker 2: probably killed more white people than any other racist. Yeah.

1092
00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:07,000
Speaker 2: He does drop a lot of white folks.

1093
00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:09,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, accidentally.

1094
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:12,560
Speaker 2: Based well he drops everyone else too. Yeah, true, maybe

1095
00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:15,120
Speaker 2: not maybe unlike him, cigarettes don't discriminate.

1096
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:20,280
Speaker 3: Yeah. Oh, dear god. They become a magnet for the

1097
00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:21,760
Speaker 3: shittest things in humanity.

1098
00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:25,200
Speaker 2: It is incredible. How many terrible? Yeah, it's it's amazing.

1099
00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:27,480
Speaker 3: What's gonna happen next? They're going to like stand with

1100
00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:34,840
Speaker 3: the turfs or something. Cigarettes. You just don't like queer people. Yeah,

1101
00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:37,480
Speaker 3: I'm tell you. It's probably in the Harry Potter books somewhere.

1102
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:42,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. In nineteen fifty four, the TRC's budget was around

1103
00:57:42,200 --> 00:57:44,440
Speaker 2: a million dollars, nearly all of which went to Hill

1104
00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:47,760
Speaker 2: and Knowlton in various ads rather than actual science. But

1105
00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:50,760
Speaker 2: by nineteen sixty three the TRC was giving out close

1106
00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:54,360
Speaker 2: to a million dollars in grants. These funded research, actual

1107
00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:57,880
Speaker 2: scientific research, but they picked the kind of research carefully.

1108
00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:01,400
Speaker 2: So we're not going to do research what causes lung cancer,

1109
00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:04,520
Speaker 2: but we'll do research into how cancer develops over time

1110
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:06,760
Speaker 2: and how it grows in the body, and ways to

1111
00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:10,400
Speaker 2: fight it and stuff, and this is important stuff. So

1112
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:12,480
Speaker 2: they can keep coming out with these studies funded by

1113
00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:15,440
Speaker 2: TRC money that are real studies, but none of them

1114
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:18,280
Speaker 2: happen to look into whether or not smoking causes cancer. Right,

1115
00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:21,680
Speaker 2: you can look at how genetics or virology impacts cancer rates,

1116
00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:24,560
Speaker 2: and those are important things to study. But by picking

1117
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:28,080
Speaker 2: what gets funded specifically, they are very very.

1118
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:33,560
Speaker 3: Purposefully putting better airbags in then no breaks Modelobo car.

1119
00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:39,560
Speaker 2: So this strategy worked for decades, distracting the public and

1120
00:58:39,640 --> 00:58:42,440
Speaker 2: lawmakers from any actions that might negatively impact the rate

1121
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:44,920
Speaker 2: at which people smoked. Key to the success of this

1122
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:48,080
Speaker 2: program was Hill's understanding of how journalism worked. From that

1123
00:58:48,160 --> 00:58:51,360
Speaker 2: journal of public health article. Hill understood that the success

1124
00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:54,680
Speaker 2: of any public relations strategy was highly dependent on face

1125
00:58:54,720 --> 00:58:58,320
Speaker 2: to face interpersonal relations with important media outlets. Each time

1126
00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:00,960
Speaker 2: the TRC issued a press release, the Hill and Nolton

1127
00:59:01,040 --> 00:59:05,480
Speaker 2: organization would initiate a personal contact. The firm systematically documented

1128
00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:08,000
Speaker 2: the courtship of newspapers and magazines where it could urge

1129
00:59:08,040 --> 00:59:11,320
Speaker 2: balance and fairness in the industry. In these intreaties on

1130
00:59:11,360 --> 00:59:15,240
Speaker 2: behalf of the industry, the firm staffers repeated several key themes. First,

1131
00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:18,000
Speaker 2: they would note that the industry completely understood its important

1132
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:21,280
Speaker 2: public responsibilities. Second, they would affirm that the industry was

1133
00:59:21,320 --> 00:59:24,480
Speaker 2: deeply committed to investigating all of the scientific questions relevant

1134
00:59:24,520 --> 00:59:30,440
Speaker 2: to resolving the controversy. Third, they urged skepticism regarding statistical studies. Finally,

1135
00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:32,680
Speaker 2: they offered members of the media a long list of

1136
00:59:32,720 --> 00:59:36,680
Speaker 2: independent skeptics to consult to ensure balance in their presentations.

1137
00:59:37,080 --> 00:59:41,960
Speaker 3: Great also responsible for the dozens of direct marketing emails

1138
00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:46,800
Speaker 3: I guess every single day. Yeah great, right now I'm

1139
00:59:46,840 --> 00:59:48,160
Speaker 3: personally agree for this MATTERFI.

1140
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:53,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, cigarettes created everything. The primary independent skeptic, of course,

1141
00:59:53,560 --> 00:59:56,640
Speaker 2: was the TRC. Is little that's the eugenics guy. Given

1142
00:59:56,680 --> 00:59:58,959
Speaker 2: the pinshant of the press for controversy and it's often

1143
00:59:59,120 --> 01:00:02,840
Speaker 2: naive notion of allance. These appeals were remarkably successful. Hilln

1144
01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:06,440
Speaker 2: Nolton expertly broadcast their arguments, typically not based on substantive

1145
01:00:06,440 --> 01:00:09,080
Speaker 2: research of any kind, of a small group of skeptics,

1146
01:00:09,080 --> 01:00:11,680
Speaker 2: as if their positions represented a dominant perspective on the

1147
01:00:11,720 --> 01:00:14,600
Speaker 2: medical science of the cigarette. In this sense, the public

1148
01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:19,000
Speaker 2: relations campaign advantaged two critical pieces of mid century media practice. First,

1149
01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:23,840
Speaker 2: journalists favored reporting on controversy. Second, by providing opposing positions

1150
01:00:23,880 --> 01:00:28,680
Speaker 2: as if they were equal, they affirmed their commitment to balance. Yeah.

1151
01:00:28,200 --> 01:00:31,560
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's right, baby, that's right baby.

1152
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:36,400
Speaker 3: Fuck sake, why piss off? Uh huh, yeah, No, they've

1153
01:00:36,440 --> 01:00:37,480
Speaker 3: invented both sides.

1154
01:00:37,960 --> 01:00:40,680
Speaker 2: They did invent both sides again. So they gave us

1155
01:00:40,760 --> 01:00:44,040
Speaker 2: Donald Trump. That's what they gave us, Donald Trump. They

1156
01:00:44,080 --> 01:00:47,440
Speaker 2: gave us climate change denial. They gave us a lot

1157
01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:51,480
Speaker 2: of the gun industries, tactics, Barry Weiss, all of that

1158
01:00:51,560 --> 01:00:52,960
Speaker 2: ship comes from big tobacco.

1159
01:00:53,360 --> 01:00:54,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, god, they gave us.

1160
01:00:54,640 --> 01:00:57,520
Speaker 2: They gave us the fucking Iraq war. All of these,

1161
01:00:57,640 --> 01:00:59,840
Speaker 2: all of these strategies are the things that like we're

1162
01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:03,840
Speaker 2: like they pioneered all of those strategies, and that's where

1163
01:01:03,880 --> 01:01:08,200
Speaker 2: we're going to end for the day. James, Yeah, will, Yeah.

1164
01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:10,440
Speaker 3: Let's stop. So I've become enraged.

1165
01:01:11,320 --> 01:01:13,720
Speaker 2: We will. We will talk in more detail about the

1166
01:01:13,720 --> 01:01:21,000
Speaker 2: tobacco industry later, but yeah, this is this is how they, like,

1167
01:01:21,320 --> 01:01:24,800
Speaker 2: there's a bigger story in kind of how they kept

1168
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:28,160
Speaker 2: this up as it became increasingly obvious that cigarettes caused cancer,

1169
01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:30,960
Speaker 2: and like how they advertised to children and like the

1170
01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:34,360
Speaker 2: nineties and stuff, and Joe Cammell there's a story, and

1171
01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:36,440
Speaker 2: like how they tried to destroy the lives of people

1172
01:01:36,440 --> 01:01:40,320
Speaker 2: who blew the whistle on them, like former tobacco employees,

1173
01:01:41,600 --> 01:01:43,360
Speaker 2: And we'll talk about all of those one day. But

1174
01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:45,880
Speaker 2: this is this is the story of how tobacco invented

1175
01:01:45,920 --> 01:01:47,160
Speaker 2: everything in the modern world.

1176
01:01:47,800 --> 01:01:49,880
Speaker 3: Yeah. Great, I feel really good about all the things

1177
01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:51,120
Speaker 3: that we've got from it.

1178
01:01:51,120 --> 01:01:55,720
Speaker 2: It's cool that you can tie like funco pops, climate change,

1179
01:01:55,760 --> 01:01:58,360
Speaker 2: denial in the Iraq War all to trying to get

1180
01:01:58,400 --> 01:01:59,160
Speaker 2: people to smoke.

1181
01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:03,560
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, it's really it's really great and caism and

1182
01:02:03,640 --> 01:02:04,439
Speaker 3: that's nothing but good.

1183
01:02:04,520 --> 01:02:09,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, pokemon and medical patents all all have cigarettes to think.

1184
01:02:10,160 --> 01:02:15,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, god, yeah, it's just unfathomable. It's terrible, it's awful. Yeah,

1185
01:02:15,720 --> 01:02:17,880
Speaker 3: it's it's the nature of the system we live in.

1186
01:02:18,800 --> 01:02:19,560
Speaker 3: Maybe change it.

1187
01:02:19,560 --> 01:02:21,360
Speaker 2: It's the nature of the system we live in part

1188
01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:22,360
Speaker 2: because of cigarettes.

1189
01:02:22,560 --> 01:02:26,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, very good. Maybe maybe consider a different system.

1190
01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:30,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe consider a system in which it's not possible

1191
01:02:30,120 --> 01:02:30,280
Speaker 2: to do.

1192
01:02:30,840 --> 01:02:33,200
Speaker 3: The good thing is Robert that none of these issues

1193
01:02:33,240 --> 01:02:36,560
Speaker 3: are tied to vaping, which is fine and totally totally

1194
01:02:36,640 --> 01:02:39,360
Speaker 3: normal and good, and therefore you should just get a

1195
01:02:39,440 --> 01:02:40,560
Speaker 3: fruit loop vape.

1196
01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:44,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, get get a flavored vape, you know, buy some

1197
01:02:44,840 --> 01:02:48,040
Speaker 2: of that. Uh, I don't know what else, what other

1198
01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:50,640
Speaker 2: what drugs do kids like to do today? Get some

1199
01:02:50,840 --> 01:02:53,080
Speaker 2: Get some of that. Get some of that flavored Fitanel

1200
01:02:53,160 --> 01:02:56,240
Speaker 2: tide pods mixture, Finnel in your tide pods together kids. Yeah,

1201
01:02:56,240 --> 01:02:56,680
Speaker 2: a good one.

1202
01:02:57,320 --> 01:02:59,880
Speaker 3: That's so turing that on taking the talk right now

1203
01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:01,320
Speaker 3: from what I understand, Yeah.

1204
01:03:01,240 --> 01:03:04,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, TikTok and everything that doesn't have any further James,

1205
01:03:04,640 --> 01:03:06,120
Speaker 2: is there anything you like to plug.

1206
01:03:07,080 --> 01:03:11,720
Speaker 3: Apart from tide pods? Yeah, I did think. Yeah, we

1207
01:03:11,760 --> 01:03:14,600
Speaker 3: talked about a podcast. I've written a book. It's called

1208
01:03:14,600 --> 01:03:17,720
Speaker 3: The Popular Front and the nineteen thirty six Bus owner Olympics.

1209
01:03:17,760 --> 01:03:19,760
Speaker 3: You can probably find it at the library. Then you

1210
01:03:19,800 --> 01:03:22,000
Speaker 3: won't be helping to create the system which gave us,

1211
01:03:22,040 --> 01:03:27,080
Speaker 3: you know, Pokemon cards and everyone having cancer. And yeah,

1212
01:03:27,120 --> 01:03:29,320
Speaker 3: you can find me on Twitter. It's just my name, James,

1213
01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:33,880
Speaker 3: like bondst Out, like the beer. We that's all. Anarchism

1214
01:03:33,960 --> 01:03:35,760
Speaker 3: is the other thing. I always like to plug on podcasts.

1215
01:03:35,800 --> 01:03:38,200
Speaker 3: So maybe yeah, Recrepokin.

1216
01:03:37,680 --> 01:03:39,960
Speaker 1: And we're doing a it could happen here livestream virtual

1217
01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:41,800
Speaker 1: show on October twenty six.

1218
01:03:42,680 --> 01:03:47,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, motherfuckers, yep, So pick up a pack of lucky strikes.

1219
01:03:47,480 --> 01:03:49,800
Speaker 2: I want to see all of you beautiful people smoking

1220
01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:53,120
Speaker 2: when we do our live show. Just just really burn

1221
01:03:53,160 --> 01:03:55,920
Speaker 2: them down. Nothing raises the value of a house faster

1222
01:03:56,040 --> 01:03:58,360
Speaker 2: than the smoking cigarette's Yeah.

1223
01:04:02,520 --> 01:04:05,400
Speaker 3: Ring, go back to return to tradition by sticking two

1224
01:04:05,400 --> 01:04:07,320
Speaker 3: cigarettes up your nose after smoking them that way.

1225
01:04:07,480 --> 01:04:09,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, smoke your cigarettes the traditional way.

1226
01:04:09,800 --> 01:04:10,240
Speaker 3: Mm hmm.

1227
01:04:10,400 --> 01:04:13,120
Speaker 2: Anyway, yeah.

1228
01:04:13,320 --> 01:04:18,400
Speaker 1: By Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1229
01:04:18,760 --> 01:04:22,040
Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia

1230
01:04:22,200 --> 01:04:25,400
Speaker 1: dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1231
01:04:25,520 --> 01:04:28,640
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the

1232
01:04:28,680 --> 01:04:32,760
Speaker 1: Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes every Wednesday

1233
01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:36,480
Speaker 1: and Friday. Subscribe to our channel YouTube dot com slash

1234
01:04:36,680 --> 01:04:38,400
Speaker 1: At Behind the Bastards