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Speaker 1: Hey, Betrayal fans, I have exciting news to share. Season

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Speaker 1: three of Betrayal is now a docuseries on Hulu. It's

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Speaker 1: the gripping story of Stacy Tyler and the doctor who

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Speaker 1: betrayed them. See the voices You've come to know in

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Speaker 1: Betrayal Under his Eye, streaming now on Hulu.

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Speaker 2: Three weeks before he had first messaged me, he had

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Speaker 2: actually absconded from prison. He was serving a sentence for

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Speaker 2: fraud and he was on the run when he met me.

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Speaker 1: I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about

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Speaker 1: the people we trust the most and the deceptions that

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Speaker 1: change everything. Bernie Brown met a man named Leo on Grinder.

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Speaker 1: Leo was unlike anyone he'd ever met, intoxicatingly charming, and

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Speaker 1: it didn't hurt that he drove a Bentley. After a

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Speaker 1: few weeks of dating, Leo revealed that he was actually

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Speaker 1: a member of the royal family, and because of that,

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Speaker 1: he couldn't come out as gay. His relationship with Bernie

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Speaker 1: had to be a secret. Leo's need for privacy became

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Speaker 1: even more heightened when he received a terminal cancer diagnosis.

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Speaker 1: All the while, Leo kept up his career restoring luxury watches.

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Speaker 1: He even made a deal with Bernie to restore a

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Speaker 1: Rolex for free. Bernie just had to cover the initial cost.

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Speaker 1: To do that. Bernie took out a high interest loan

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Speaker 1: to pay for the watch and together they would resell

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Speaker 1: it for a profit. But once Bernie transferred the money,

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Speaker 1: Leo's communication became more sparse, until one night when Bernie

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Speaker 1: got his darycal call from his boyfriend.

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Speaker 2: He was like, Bernie, I can't take this life anymore.

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Speaker 1: Bernie drove across the country to pick him up.

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Speaker 2: He was in tears. He went asleep and I was

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Speaker 2: stroking his hair.

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Speaker 1: The next morning, Leo made a proposition.

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Speaker 2: And it's like, I've got a serious question that I

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Speaker 2: need to ask you. I want to move somewhere in Scotland.

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Speaker 2: Would you come with me.

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Speaker 1: Leo had been looking to buy a castle in the

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Speaker 1: Scottish countryside where he could live out the rest of

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Speaker 1: his life the way he wanted to with Bernie, and.

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Speaker 2: He was like, I want to put an offer in

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Speaker 2: and move within the month. I'm just done with all

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Speaker 2: of this. I'm like, do you know what, We've got

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Speaker 2: one life, Let's do it.

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Speaker 1: Leo drove them back to London. It was a five

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Speaker 1: hour drive and they spent every minute of it planning

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Speaker 1: their new life.

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Speaker 2: We had designed this entire life down to the jobs

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Speaker 2: we would do, the businesses we would build.

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Speaker 1: On their drive, Leo's grandparents called. They were nearby, so

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Speaker 1: Leo decided to meet up with them and spend the

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Speaker 1: rest of the day with his grandparents. Bernie could drive

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Speaker 1: the Bentley back to London, so halfway through their trip,

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Speaker 1: Leo pulled off at a gas station where his grandparents

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Speaker 1: were waiting. It was the first time Bernie had seen

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Speaker 1: anyone in Leo's family. Leo asked Bernie to act like

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Speaker 1: they were just friends.

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Speaker 2: He went over to this couple they must have been

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Speaker 2: in their late sixties, and his granddad went to go

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Speaker 2: to the bathroom. So I was like, okay, I need

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Speaker 2: to toilet anyway, So I was like, I'll go and

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Speaker 2: then I went in and then he came in after me,

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Speaker 2: so I was like okay.

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Speaker 1: On the way out of the bathroom, Bernie struck up

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Speaker 1: a conversation with Leo's granddad and he was like, oh.

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Speaker 2: Well, we live in Sussex. That's where the castle was.

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Speaker 1: They chatted about life in Sussex, then headed back to

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Speaker 1: their cars. Leo went with his grandparents and Bernie drove

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Speaker 1: alone back to London. Bernie was excited about starting his

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Speaker 1: new life in Scotland, but his financial stress about the

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Speaker 1: watch was mounting. It wouldn't be ready to resell in

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Speaker 1: time for Bernie's next loan payment.

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Speaker 2: I'm panicking now, I'd missed one direct debit. February's was

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Speaker 2: coming up, and it still was not happening.

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Speaker 1: As the weeks went on, Bernie kept asking his boyfriend

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Speaker 1: for an update on the watch.

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Speaker 2: The watch is being almost dangled. It's like, oh, I'll

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Speaker 2: bring it up, can I I'll come up to yours.

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Speaker 2: I was like, okay, fine, I'll bring the watch up.

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Speaker 2: He'd get to the house. No watch, Oh I forgot

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Speaker 2: I didn't go home yet. For whatever reason, the watch

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Speaker 2: would always either be forgotten or once the cleaner accidentally

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Speaker 2: moved it and it was lost in the house somewhere,

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Speaker 2: so he needs to go back and look for it.

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Speaker 1: It was getting absurd that Leo couldn't get the watch

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Speaker 1: sorted out. Sure, there was a lot happening in Leo's life,

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Speaker 1: but waiting this long was affecting Bernie's there.

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Speaker 2: Was something inside that I was questioning a lot more,

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Speaker 2: but I was still hooked. I still agreed to go

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Speaker 2: to Scotland with him.

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Speaker 1: Just weeks before, Leo had needed Bernie to drive through

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Speaker 1: the night to be there for him. Leo showed him

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Speaker 1: the house he was putting an offer on. Now Bernie

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Speaker 1: wasn't even getting a text or a call back for days.

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Speaker 2: The gas lighting started. We'd have this call, for instance,

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Speaker 2: and what are you doing today, Let's have a call tonight. Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 2: and then we'd have a call arrange something, and then

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Speaker 2: he would be like, we didn't arrange it. I was like,

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Speaker 2: well we did, because you know, I put it here,

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Speaker 2: I put it in my diary. I put it. No,

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Speaker 2: we didn't have that conversation.

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Speaker 1: Bernie knew that Leo isolated when he was stressed about

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Speaker 1: his camp or his family. Bernie wondered if things had

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Speaker 1: gotten worse, but all the worrying was starting to take

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Speaker 1: a toll on his own health.

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Speaker 2: End of January, February and beginning of March was and

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Speaker 2: still is, to a degree, a blur. I got into

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Speaker 2: the worst state of mind. I had to take time

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Speaker 2: off of work for depression I got massively depressed. I

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Speaker 2: lost so much weight I didn't eat.

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Speaker 1: Bernie knew something was wrong, and he started spiraling.

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Speaker 2: Of course, like anyone, I went straight into his seeing

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Speaker 2: somebody else mode, somebody else is on the scene, and

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Speaker 2: I went into that whole whirlwind. I did then do

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Speaker 2: something cheap because I was like, I can't do this normal.

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Speaker 2: I literally cannot do this anymore.

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Speaker 1: With Leo across the country, Bernie got an idea, what I.

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Speaker 2: Think I should download Grinder again. And with Grinder you

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Speaker 2: can change location and search for profiles within that location.

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Speaker 1: So Bernie created a fake Grinder profile and set it

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Speaker 1: to Leo's location.

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Speaker 2: Now I knew his type, so I found a decent

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Speaker 2: looking ginger guy, put that on my profile, and I

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Speaker 2: spent a good day at the location looking through profiles

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Speaker 2: that didn't have pictures on Lo and behold, he found

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Speaker 2: my profile.

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Speaker 1: Leo sent the first message.

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Speaker 2: So we're just talking. I'm like, what do you do

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Speaker 2: is I'm a horologist, you know, I deal with watches,

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Speaker 2: And he went straight into you and I'm a part

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Speaker 2: of the Howard family, and then he sent me pictures.

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Speaker 2: It was him.

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Speaker 1: At the same time, Leo was talking to fake Bernie

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Speaker 1: on Grinder. He was avoiding real Bernie's texts.

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Speaker 2: He would reply to this person for literally about an hour,

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Speaker 2: but I'm getting no reply. So I'm like, do you

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Speaker 2: know what I'm done? Now? That's it. I need to

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Speaker 2: get this watch and I need to get it soon.

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Speaker 2: So I did actually confront him with it, and I

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Speaker 2: was like, I know you've been speaking to people, and

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Speaker 2: I sent him a screenshot of the profile, and of

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Speaker 2: course he was like, how dare you try putting it

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Speaker 2: on me? And I was like, I didn't do anything,

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Speaker 2: and I was like, you have no right and went

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Speaker 2: off on one and I'm like, do you know what,

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Speaker 2: it's absolutely fine, just give me the watch. That's when

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Speaker 2: he turned nasty. I was like, you're not getting the watch.

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Speaker 2: You don't deserve the watch.

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Speaker 1: Regardless of Leo's royal status or cancer diagnosis. Bernie wasn't

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Speaker 1: going to allow someone to speak to him that way.

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Speaker 1: He hung up. Then Leo started blowing up his phone.

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Speaker 2: You know, I really love you and all of this

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Speaker 2: and what about Scotland.

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Speaker 1: Bernie told him he wasn't coming to Scotland. Their relationship

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Speaker 1: was over, the only thing he wanted from Leo was

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Speaker 1: the watch.

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Speaker 2: So he's like, look, I'm going to bring the watch.

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Speaker 2: It's finally ready. I was like, oh my god, I'm

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Speaker 2: actually going to get this watch now, and he was like,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to bring it down.

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Speaker 1: They set a time and place to meet.

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Speaker 2: He was like, are you're going to be okay seeing me?

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Speaker 2: You know it may be a strain, and I'm like, listen,

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Speaker 2: I'm sure I'm going to be fine. I just just

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Speaker 2: make sure you bring the watch. Turns up, no watch.

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Speaker 1: That was the last time they ever spoke.

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Speaker 2: I said enough is enough. I'm worth more than this,

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Speaker 2: and I blocked his number. I had just been like,

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Speaker 2: I'm never getting that watch. I need to deal with

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Speaker 2: what I can and this is the position that I'm in.

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Speaker 1: Bernie says he was a shell of himself. Over the

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Speaker 1: course of nine months, his entire life had been rearranged.

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Speaker 1: All of his savings were gone, he had taken out

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Speaker 1: loans and max out every credit card he had. It

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Speaker 1: left Bernie in a dark place.

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Speaker 2: My best friends literally descended on my house and were like,

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Speaker 2: we've never seen you like this, and we need to

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Speaker 2: pick it up. If I didn't have my friends around

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Speaker 2: me at the time, I don't know if I would

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Speaker 2: actually be here to this day. I genuinely, genuinely believe.

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Speaker 1: That Bernie's friend supported him emotionally, but he was facing

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Speaker 1: his financial crisis alone.

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Speaker 2: I had to just bow and say I can't afford it. Default,

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Speaker 2: and my credit score at one point went from the

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Speaker 2: highest it had ever been straight down to zero. I'd

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Speaker 2: never even seen zero on a credit score before. I

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Speaker 2: was working in retail, and I had all this depth,

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Speaker 2: and the debts that were coming out on a monthly

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Speaker 2: basis because of everything that happened was higher than my

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Speaker 2: entire pay let alone, when you take away bills and

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Speaker 2: utilities and all of that.

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Speaker 1: Bernie was overwhelmed with shame. He was at risk of

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Speaker 1: getting his car repossessed or his wages garnished. He was

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Speaker 1: able to make a payment plan, but in the meantime

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Speaker 1: he had very little money to live on.

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Speaker 2: He didn't take an obscene amount of money from me

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Speaker 2: monetary wise, but what he did do was absolutely wipe

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Speaker 2: me out. At one point, I didn't have the money

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Speaker 2: to go to the shop to buy food. The monetary

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Speaker 2: amount for me twenty thousand could have easily been five million.

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Speaker 2: It was all that I had to my name to survive.

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Speaker 1: Twenty thousand pounds was a drop in the bucket for Leo.

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Speaker 1: After all, his family lived in a historic castle. He

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Speaker 1: drove a Bentley. But twenty thousand pounds was everything to Bernie,

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Speaker 1: and Leo knew that.

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Speaker 2: I've reminded him time and time again. He knew exactly

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Speaker 2: what my financial background was, what my current financial situation was.

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Speaker 2: He knew about all of that, but he still pushed

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Speaker 2: to take them credit cards. He knew all of that

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Speaker 2: was coming, and I reminded him many times, every single day,

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Speaker 2: almost that this is hitting. He absolutely did not care.

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Speaker 1: Slowly, Bernie came to terms with his financial reality. He

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Speaker 1: continued leaning on his friends for emotional support. That's when

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Speaker 1: one of his friends said something he hadn't considered before.

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Speaker 1: This was theft he'd been robbed.

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Speaker 2: She was like, he's going to carry on doing it

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Speaker 2: to other people until somebody actually puts a stop to it.

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Speaker 2: At that point, I decided that actually I will contact

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Speaker 2: the police because this isn't right.

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Speaker 1: Bernie walked into the police station and filed a report.

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Speaker 2: They did take it seriously. I gave everything I had

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Speaker 2: to them, and they had absolutely no idea who this person.

220
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Speaker 1: Was according to the police database, Leo Howard didn't exist.

221
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Speaker 2: I emailed Arundel Castle, which is the official residence of

222
00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:26,280
Speaker 2: the Duke of Norfolk, and there was absolutely no record

223
00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:31,200
Speaker 2: of Leo Howard, Leo Bose Howard, or absolutely anything. So

224
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Speaker 2: then I started doing my own research, but there was

225
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Speaker 2: absolutely no trace.

226
00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,880
Speaker 1: Bernie knew the VIN numbers to Leo's Range, Rover and Bentley.

227
00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:45,840
Speaker 2: All of the car registration numbers had completely been erased,

228
00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:49,280
Speaker 2: which is very hard to do. I don't know how

229
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Speaker 2: that's possible.

230
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Speaker 1: The VIN numbers weren't listed on any database. It was

231
00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:58,960
Speaker 1: like the cars never existed. But Bernie remembered riding in

232
00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:04,400
Speaker 1: those cars, driving those cars. It was all so strange.

233
00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:08,160
Speaker 1: He was starting to wonder what was even real.

234
00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:14,320
Speaker 2: It was as if I had completely imagined the entire year,

235
00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:19,760
Speaker 2: completely imagined it, because this person just did not exist.

236
00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:24,040
Speaker 1: Leo had vanished into thin air. Even the police had

237
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Speaker 1: hit a dead end.

238
00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:31,000
Speaker 2: The police could not recognize his picture. They had to

239
00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:35,320
Speaker 2: just close the investigation. It must have been a good

240
00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:39,280
Speaker 2: year later and I get a call when it comes

241
00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:42,120
Speaker 2: up and it's the police officer that was originally dealing

242
00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:45,040
Speaker 2: with the case. Then I answered and there was a

243
00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:47,680
Speaker 2: nice of tears. You know, how are you? And then

244
00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:51,880
Speaker 2: he said, do you watch Channel four? And I said,

245
00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:55,800
Speaker 2: to be honest, no, And he said, right, okay, there's

246
00:14:55,920 --> 00:15:00,560
Speaker 2: this documentary that's just been shown on Channel four and

247
00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:04,200
Speaker 2: from that I've been given a case. And he said,

248
00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:08,160
Speaker 2: everything that's been described in the case and on the

249
00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:12,200
Speaker 2: documentary is almost identical to my story.

250
00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:16,240
Speaker 1: Bernie had no idea that across the country other people

251
00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,080
Speaker 1: had been reporting a very similar crime to the police.

252
00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:23,640
Speaker 1: A broader case was developing. In fact, the story was

253
00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:27,520
Speaker 1: already out as a true crime documentary. It was about

254
00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:31,440
Speaker 1: a prolific and highly manipulative scam artist operating all over

255
00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:36,040
Speaker 1: the UK. The detective calling wanted to know if Bernie

256
00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:38,240
Speaker 1: recognized the man at the center of it.

257
00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:42,600
Speaker 2: He said, can you just google and have a look.

258
00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:47,280
Speaker 2: As soon as he said that, I had that sinking feeling.

259
00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:53,880
Speaker 2: My heart dropped to the ground. I knew it would

260
00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:59,680
Speaker 2: be him. My hands started shaking, and my brain when

261
00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,320
Speaker 2: complete depletely dead on just how to google something. But

262
00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:08,200
Speaker 2: I managed it. I got there and it was his face.

263
00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:32,080
Speaker 1: A year after Bernie first went to the police, he

264
00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,400
Speaker 1: got a call from a detective. They linked his report

265
00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:38,880
Speaker 1: to a serial fraudster, someone who'd been conning men and

266
00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:42,080
Speaker 1: women across the UK with the same mix of charm,

267
00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:43,880
Speaker 1: money and elaborate lies.

268
00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:47,920
Speaker 2: There was a lot of press around it, and I

269
00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:51,800
Speaker 2: broke down. I absolutely broke down in tears.

270
00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:56,880
Speaker 1: The story had exploded. Leo's face was all over the news.

271
00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:01,240
Speaker 1: After Bernie got over the initial shock, a new feeling

272
00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:01,800
Speaker 1: flooded in.

273
00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:09,600
Speaker 2: The wave of relief. Now I have proof that it happens, because,

274
00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:11,800
Speaker 2: bearing in mind at that point, the only person who

275
00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:15,000
Speaker 2: had ever met him was my best friend. We went

276
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,800
Speaker 2: out for one night. Apart from that, he didn't want

277
00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:21,719
Speaker 2: to meet anyone. He didn't want to be photographed anyone

278
00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,200
Speaker 2: that I told this story to. There was always, i'm sure,

279
00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:28,040
Speaker 2: an element of doubt because it was so extraordinary to

280
00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:31,760
Speaker 2: happen to me or to anyone. When I saw this,

281
00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:38,719
Speaker 2: it was that feeling, that overwhelming, almost joyous feeling of

282
00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:42,080
Speaker 2: I told you this did happen.

283
00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:49,240
Speaker 1: There were dozens of articles Bernie clicked on. One about

284
00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:53,080
Speaker 1: a woman who discovered her fiance was a fraud. He

285
00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:56,440
Speaker 1: built a five year relationship in order to scam her

286
00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:58,760
Speaker 1: out of thirty thousand pounds.

287
00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:03,520
Speaker 2: I read the article and everything that happened to me

288
00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:05,520
Speaker 2: had happened to her.

289
00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:10,040
Speaker 1: Bernie knew that the documentary might hold answers to as

290
00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:12,240
Speaker 1: many unanswered questions about Leo.

291
00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:17,040
Speaker 2: We sat down and we watched it, and as soon

292
00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:22,840
Speaker 2: as I press play, it starts with his face again.

293
00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:28,040
Speaker 2: I got that sinking feeling. It was surreal.

294
00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:32,879
Speaker 1: Scene after scene, Bernie realized he'd lived the same exact

295
00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:37,200
Speaker 1: moments with the same con man. The luxury watch business

296
00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:40,680
Speaker 1: a scam, the cancer diagnosis fake.

297
00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:45,800
Speaker 2: I'm heightened at that point, and the Bentley came up

298
00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,480
Speaker 2: and I was like, that's that was the Bentley and

299
00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:51,800
Speaker 2: the watch that I was handling, and the watch that

300
00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:57,040
Speaker 2: I was supposed to be buying was actually in the documentary,

301
00:18:57,200 --> 00:18:59,960
Speaker 2: just even little parts of the story. I was like, yes,

302
00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:00,640
Speaker 2: he told me.

303
00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:05,600
Speaker 1: That, even though it was someone else's story, it was

304
00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:10,879
Speaker 1: like watching his own true crime documentary. Andy learned Leo

305
00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:12,520
Speaker 1: had a dozen aliases.

306
00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:18,320
Speaker 2: After the documentary, I did get emotional because I think

307
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:23,520
Speaker 2: that then sunk in exactly the severity of what was happening.

308
00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:29,399
Speaker 2: I was just a number at that point. Straight Away,

309
00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:33,800
Speaker 2: I found the woman in the documentary on social media

310
00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:36,919
Speaker 2: and connected and I remember The first message was like,

311
00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:41,760
Speaker 2: you don't know me. I've just seen your documentary and

312
00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:45,520
Speaker 2: I met him such and such date. She came back

313
00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:48,840
Speaker 2: and we had a few telephone conversations.

314
00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,719
Speaker 1: They had so much in common. This other victim helped

315
00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,560
Speaker 1: Bernie fill in the gaps in his knowledge and pieced

316
00:19:55,600 --> 00:20:00,120
Speaker 1: together a timeline. Most shocking of all, he learned.

317
00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,680
Speaker 2: Three weeks before he had messaged me, he had actually

318
00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:10,119
Speaker 2: absconded from prison. He was serving a sentence for fraud

319
00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:13,520
Speaker 2: and he was on the run when he met me.

320
00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:18,879
Speaker 1: Looking back, this explained something about Leo's behavior, how he

321
00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:22,160
Speaker 1: was always nervous around the police.

322
00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:26,119
Speaker 2: He never really liked the police. He was kind of

323
00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:27,880
Speaker 2: scared of the police, to the point he would wait

324
00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:30,040
Speaker 2: around the corner if there was police cars from driving past.

325
00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:30,639
Speaker 2: He was scared.

326
00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:34,760
Speaker 1: When Bernie met Leo. He wasn't in that campground because

327
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,199
Speaker 1: it was the only place he could be himself. He

328
00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:40,680
Speaker 1: was there because he was in hiding. Leo had escaped

329
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,560
Speaker 1: while he was serving a five year prison sentence for

330
00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:48,040
Speaker 1: defrauding another victim, and there were many more. He had

331
00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:49,520
Speaker 1: victims across England.

332
00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:54,760
Speaker 2: There was me and one other person in the north

333
00:20:54,840 --> 00:21:00,840
Speaker 2: of London, all the other victims were in the south

334
00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:06,439
Speaker 2: of England, in Kent, in Sussex. The person that was

335
00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:10,520
Speaker 2: in the documentary was in the Isle of Wight when

336
00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:14,679
Speaker 2: he escaped from prison. He had then obviously traveled and

337
00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:15,680
Speaker 2: he was in hiding.

338
00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:20,120
Speaker 1: What was so chilling to Bernie was that the.

339
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:27,080
Speaker 2: Time the documentary was being filmed was when I was

340
00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:27,720
Speaker 2: with him.

341
00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:31,800
Speaker 1: And Bernie wasn't the only person Leo was scamming while

342
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:35,879
Speaker 1: he was on the run. Remember Leo's grandparents, who Bernie

343
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:37,040
Speaker 1: met at the gas station.

344
00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:41,399
Speaker 2: I told the police my story and I said, look,

345
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:45,040
Speaker 2: I came into contact with his nana grandad. They're like, no,

346
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:50,960
Speaker 2: that was another victim. I was like, wow, he was

347
00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:53,200
Speaker 2: doing exactly the same to them.

348
00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:57,760
Speaker 1: If Leo stayed behind bars, many people wouldn't have been victimized.

349
00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:01,360
Speaker 1: He was a fugitive. The police were looking for him.

350
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:05,360
Speaker 1: But the problem was the police weren't as savvy as Leo.

351
00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:10,720
Speaker 2: Now, we do have a national database which comes up,

352
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:15,000
Speaker 2: but they didn't put him on that. So all the

353
00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:19,760
Speaker 2: time that I was with him, there were actually campaigns

354
00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:23,600
Speaker 2: to find this person. However, the police don't talk to

355
00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:27,160
Speaker 2: each other over here, and when I had raised my case.

356
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:31,360
Speaker 2: They had no idea who it was until the documentary

357
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:32,080
Speaker 2: came out.

358
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,800
Speaker 1: That's when police stations across the country started connecting the dots.

359
00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:42,359
Speaker 2: Channel four had done so many press releases that it

360
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:47,120
Speaker 2: really got the national scope. And I think we're on

361
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:51,920
Speaker 2: about ten people that have come forward and raised a case.

362
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,720
Speaker 2: Because of the heightened press and because all of this

363
00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:01,639
Speaker 2: was going around, he decided to hand himself in.

364
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:06,040
Speaker 1: Leo was sent back to prison and Bernie hoped justice

365
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:07,920
Speaker 1: would finally be served.

366
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:13,040
Speaker 2: But he still qualified for early release. The mind boggles,

367
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:15,840
Speaker 2: But that's where we are and that's what we have

368
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,040
Speaker 2: to deal with, and that's what we are currently facing.

369
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,399
Speaker 1: Through this whole process, Bernie was able to get a

370
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:27,639
Speaker 1: true understanding of who this man really was. He even

371
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:30,639
Speaker 1: heard from people who knew the real Leo before he

372
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:31,600
Speaker 1: became a criminal.

373
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:36,600
Speaker 2: I've had so many messages over social media and TikTok

374
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:40,399
Speaker 2: where people have gone to school with him, and he

375
00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:42,679
Speaker 2: used to make up stories to get people in trouble.

376
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 2: He naturally gravitated towards fraud from a very very early age.

377
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:54,919
Speaker 2: His background is so far from the royal family it's unbelievable.

378
00:23:55,480 --> 00:24:01,400
Speaker 2: From my knowledge, he is Polish heritage, very broken upbringing,

379
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:06,520
Speaker 2: and he, in all intents and purposes, created his own

380
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:12,960
Speaker 2: system to survive. And his system was to fraudulently gain

381
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:17,679
Speaker 2: money from anywhere he could to create the life that

382
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 2: he saw himself and that he wanted.

383
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 1: And the life he wanted was one where he was wealthy,

384
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:25,760
Speaker 1: powerful and important.

385
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 2: He wanted to be part of the royal family setting,

386
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:37,359
Speaker 2: and he believed that he was destined for more. He

387
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 2: had created his own reality, and I think the longer

388
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 2: he believed it, the more he believed it.

389
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 1: Creating a string of fraudulent identities was more than just

390
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 1: a dream of being rich. It was pathological.

391
00:24:55,119 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 2: Every time he created this persona this person himself so

392
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:04,159
Speaker 2: hard into it that he then started to believe that

393
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:08,320
Speaker 2: he was this person. And I do think there's mental

394
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 2: issues there.

395
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 1: It's been three years since he met Leo, and Bernie

396
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:18,159
Speaker 1: still questions Leo's true motivations.

397
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:24,879
Speaker 2: Was his intention to outright going and commit fraud on

398
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,560
Speaker 2: every single person that he encountered, or was it that

399
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:34,119
Speaker 2: his world at certain points starts to crumble and he

400
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,080
Speaker 2: has to get what he can do and run to

401
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 2: create another life for himself. That other life that he's

402
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:43,639
Speaker 2: built up that is then crumbling.

403
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,119
Speaker 1: He got back to their first date when he was

404
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,680
Speaker 1: asked to take off his clothes. Was that a test?

405
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 1: Was it blackmail?

406
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,440
Speaker 2: I've tried going back and be like, what did happen?

407
00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 2: Why did it happen? I have absolutely no idea, but

408
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 2: I know it comes down to control.

409
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 1: After having his heart broken and his own financial stability destroyed,

410
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 1: Bernie learned who Leo truly was. He was left picking

411
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 1: up the pieces in the aftermath.

412
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 2: I don't know whether this is still my subconscious emotional tie,

413
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 2: but I think there is an element that he had

414
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:49,880
Speaker 2: gone through so much and then he met me, and

415
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:53,680
Speaker 2: he had said many times that he was gay, he

416
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 2: just couldn't be out. And I do believe that there's

417
00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:03,920
Speaker 2: an element that I wasn't his typical target, and he

418
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 2: wasn't there initially for money, and I do believe at

419
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:14,639
Speaker 2: some point he did get emotionally connected, because going after

420
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 2: me for money wouldn't have made any sense.

421
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,880
Speaker 1: Bernie still wonders if that dream of going to Scotland

422
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,639
Speaker 1: together was a genuine offer to run away together.

423
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,679
Speaker 2: At some point, I do believe that he thought that

424
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,879
Speaker 2: he could get away from it all and escape with

425
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 2: me and live that life that he had in his

426
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:41,679
Speaker 2: mind at the time. And I think potentially, once it

427
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 2: started getting a bit too real with me, that's when

428
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 2: he went into what I would call default mode. And

429
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 2: that's when the watch came. Because the watch conversation came

430
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 2: very very late in the day and then it ended

431
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 2: very very quick because he had to have a new

432
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 2: supply and obviously he couldn't leave empty handed.

433
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 1: Bernie's right, Leo never left empty handed. In fact, he

434
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 1: was running a major fraud scheme and the watches were

435
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 1: at the center of it.

436
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 2: Some businesses have come forward and said that that person

437
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 2: had sold them a fake watch, and bear in mind,

438
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 2: these are big companies. They know how to evaluate watches.

439
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,919
Speaker 1: As more information came out, he learned that Leo defrauded

440
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 1: Herod's department store out of a half a million pounds.

441
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 1: It was all part of Leo's scam.

442
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 2: He was on top of his game with regards to

443
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 2: watches that he knew how to see a fake, a

444
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 2: very good fake, and improve it to the level that

445
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 2: it was a very convincing actual piece. He scams half

446
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 2: a million pounds out of Harold's Like you are a

447
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 2: different level, a completely different level when you can do that.

448
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 2: The knowledge that Leo had on watches, watched brands, the mechanics,

449
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 2: the mechanical workings. There's no doubt in my mind he

450
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 2: has studied watches for a long time.

451
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 1: Leo also knew cars. He scammed Bentley dealerships and financial institutions.

452
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 1: He always had multiple scams going at once.

453
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 2: Absolutely the mind boggles. I do not understand that.

454
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: In February twenty twenty five, Leo was sentenced to ten

455
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 1: months in prison for having absconded from his original fraud

456
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 1: conviction and five year sentence. It's unclear whether he will

457
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 1: be criminally charged with respect to his conduct. While he

458
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 1: was on the run, Bernie took to TikTok, where he

459
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 1: shared his story. Through that experience, he has found language

460
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 1: to describe Leo and what he did.

461
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 2: TikTok was instrumental in me healing and starting that healing process.

462
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 2: Somebody had commented on one of my posts and I

463
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:24,239
Speaker 2: went onto their profile and they talk about narcissist and

464
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 2: narcissistic behavior, everything from the signs to the results of

465
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 2: what it actually does to you for the long term,

466
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 2: and instantly I was like this is exactly what he

467
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 2: was doing. With the amount of gaslighting, love bombing, breadcrumbing,

468
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 2: you get so heavily sucked in that it does actually

469
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 2: change your makeup and it changes the way you think.

470
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 2: If you said in six months time, somebody is going

471
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 2: to be in your life and you are going to

472
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 2: be hanging on every word. You're not going to speak

473
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 2: to your friends, you're not going to speak to your family,

474
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 2: You're going to doubt everything that you say. I would

475
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 2: literally have a laugh and say, carry on drinking. It

476
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 2: would never happen to me, but it did.

477
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 1: We'll carry the experience with him for the rest of

478
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 1: his life.

479
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 2: Your trust in other people after this is almost nonexistent.

480
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 1: He lost a lot, But now Bernie is focused on

481
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 1: what he does have.

482
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 2: I have a beautiful soon to be a husband, and

483
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 2: I've got a little puppy, and I've got amazing friends

484
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 2: and family and actually neighbors. So I'm content. He will

485
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 2: never ever in his life have what I have. Sat

486
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 2: in this chair now and I think that's just incredibly sad.

487
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 2: I don't hate him. I don't think too much other

488
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 2: than just sadness.

489
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 1: Bernie wants to be a resource for other people who've

490
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 1: been victims of scam artists and narcissists, and the best

491
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 1: way for him to do that is on his TikTok

492
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 1: at Berniet Brown.

493
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:22,960
Speaker 2: When I went on and I saw the tiktoks around

494
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 2: narcissism and around the discard, the gas lighting, all of that,

495
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 2: that for me was just the awakening moment. Now I

496
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,479
Speaker 2: can do that for somebody else out there, and it

497
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 2: does take a little bit of courage, especially if you're

498
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 2: going through it or you are very fresh from a

499
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 2: narcissistic encounter. I just want to be that point of

500
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 2: call and be able to just listen.

501
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 1: We end every weekly episode with the same question, why

502
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 1: do you want to share your story?

503
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 2: I know for a fact that there's thousands of leos

504
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 2: around the world. That's why this conversation, I think is massively,

505
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 2: massively important. You know, if I'd have known about certain

506
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 2: things beforehand, maybe i'd have acted differently. Maybe I would't

507
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 2: have gone through what I'd have gone through. Maybe I'd

508
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 2: have acted differently halfway through and I wouldn't have suffered

509
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 2: as much. But you know, what's happened to me is done.

510
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,960
Speaker 2: But if I can share and open somebody else's eyes,

511
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 2: and say, you know, if this ain't right, then it's

512
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 2: worth it.

513
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 1: On the next episode of Betrayal Weekly is.

514
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 3: Like, fine, I just want you to know if you

515
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 3: continue down this path, I will take every single cent

516
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 3: I have and every single cent you have, and I

517
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 3: will spend it burning you to the ground.

518
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 1: If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal

519
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 1: team or want to tell us your Betrayal story, email

520
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 1: us at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal Pod

521
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,879
Speaker 1: at gmail dot com, or follow us on Instagram at

522
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 1: Betrayal Pod. You can also connect with me on Instagram

523
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 1: at It's Andrea Gunning. To access our newsletter, view additional content,

524
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,239
Speaker 1: and connect with the Betrayal community, join our substack at

525
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 1: Betrayal dot substack dot com. We're grateful for your support.

526
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:37,839
Speaker 1: One way to show support is by subscribing to our

527
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 1: show on Apple Podcasts and don't forget to rate and

528
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 1: review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way. A

529
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 1: big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is

530
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 1: a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment

531
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:54,360
Speaker 1: Group and partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive

532
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 1: produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason. Hosted and produced

533
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 1: by me Andrea Gunning, Written and produced by Olivia Hewitt

534
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:07,080
Speaker 1: and Monique Leboard, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Casting support

535
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 1: from Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and

536
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 1: Jessica Krincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt del Vicio.

537
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:19,839
Speaker 1: Additional audio editing by Tanner Robbins. Betrayal's theme composed by

538
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 1: Oliver Bain's music library provided by my Music And. For

539
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

540
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:33,240
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts,