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Speaker 1: What is Up? Runner Gang. Welcome back to Post run High.

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Speaker 1: Today's guest is Zach Clark, whose story is all about

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Speaker 1: second chances, resilience, and turning pain into purpose. This podcast

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Speaker 1: is all about inspiring conversations that start with movement, because

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Speaker 1: we believe movement opens people up in ways nothing else does,

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Speaker 1: and today we ran a mile through the streets of

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Speaker 1: Brooklyn before sitting down to talk. You might know Zach

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Speaker 1: from the Bachelorette, but what we focus on today is

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Speaker 1: his struggle with addiction and the life he's built since.

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Speaker 1: Zach is the founder of Release Recovery and the Release

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Speaker 1: Recovery Foundation, where he's helping people find their way back

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Speaker 1: to themselves after addiction. His own recovery journey is nothing

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Speaker 1: short of extraordinary, and what makes it even more impactful

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Speaker 1: is how open and real he is about it all.

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Speaker 1: In this conversation, Zach and I talk about the moment

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Speaker 1: everything changed for him, how he rebuilt his life from

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Speaker 1: the ground up, and the actionable steps he recommends for

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Speaker 1: anyone struggling with addiction or for those who love someone

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Speaker 1: who is. We also get into the daily habits that

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Speaker 1: keep him centered, how he leads with compassion and why

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Speaker 1: he believes in giving people hope even when they can't

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Speaker 1: see it yet for themselves. We have great episodes coming up,

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Speaker 1: so please make sure you follow the show wherever you

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Speaker 1: get your podcast. All right, let's get our Post Run

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Speaker 1: High going, Zach Clark, Welcome to Post Run High.

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Speaker 2: What's up, Kate.

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Speaker 1: I'm so excited to have you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is nice. It's very comfortable in here.

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Speaker 1: You know Creighton Barrels where we got our set. We

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Speaker 1: just went for a very rainy run in Brooklyn. I

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Speaker 1: think this is the first run we've done in the

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Speaker 1: rain and then sat down for a podcast after a voyage.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to get something out of the way.

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Speaker 1: I have. I have.

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Speaker 3: We had to take our shoes off and I have

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Speaker 3: a hole in my sock. So you know, I didn't

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Speaker 3: know that the socks would be on display.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well you know what, but here we are. That

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Speaker 1: shows that you're getting good wear out of your socks. Also,

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Speaker 1: socks are the one thing going into the show my

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Speaker 1: whole life, like, I was never one of those people

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Speaker 1: that had like matching socks. I don't know what it was.

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Speaker 1: I think it was just like the way my mom

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Speaker 1: did launch growing up. She was like if they look

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Speaker 1: close enough, they're getting put together and they're going in

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Speaker 1: the bedroom like drawer. You know. So even as an adult,

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Speaker 1: like having matching socks was never a priority. But now

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Speaker 1: come on there you go.

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Speaker 3: We've got a shock game is better than mine today,

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Speaker 3: but it's not a competition.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, how was the run for you?

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Speaker 2: Run was great? I'm very impressed.

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Speaker 3: I was telling Grace's with me and works for Release

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Speaker 3: Recovery on the way over that. I just I'm rooting

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Speaker 3: so hard for you guys here because you really it's

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Speaker 3: built from scratch truly, and I root for people that

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Speaker 3: kind of go all into something and content creation is

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Speaker 3: not easy.

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Speaker 2: So to be out there with you, I've been a

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Speaker 2: fan of you for a long time. It was cool.

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Speaker 2: It was cool to be a part of it.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. I love that. Also coming from you, that

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Speaker 1: means so much because you've built something from scratch as

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Speaker 1: well many things from scratch.

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Speaker 2: Really, I like building. It's fun.

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Speaker 1: And you've got a podcast. As we were sitting down,

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Speaker 1: you started saying that you recently had your dad on

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Speaker 1: your show. I want to hear what he said and

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Speaker 1: then we can get into learning all that.

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Speaker 2: It's hilarious because you know, I go on TV.

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Speaker 3: You never I never knew how to like when I

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Speaker 3: was on The Master and coming off of that and

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Speaker 3: then going to some events and have a I never

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Speaker 3: knew how to deal with my family in that It's

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Speaker 3: it's a very tough thing because do they want to

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Speaker 3: be involved?

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Speaker 2: Do they not?

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Speaker 3: But naturally I tell my story a lot. My family's

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Speaker 3: a part of my story. So this week in his

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Speaker 3: Father's Day, I'm having my I interviewed my dad. He's

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Speaker 3: going to be on the podcast, and I was down

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Speaker 3: at the shore this weekend. He goes, son, I need

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Speaker 3: to sit you down and talk to you. I figure

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Speaker 3: he's going to tell me that like him and my

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Speaker 3: mom are getting a divorce. Like I don't know what

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Speaker 3: he's like. He like made it so serious and he

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Speaker 3: sits me down and he said it's only going to

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Speaker 3: take fifteen minutes. He goes, I sent him the link.

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Speaker 3: He goes, I listened to the podcast, and first is

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Speaker 3: it's a little long artistically, I.

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Speaker 2: Think it's a little sweet.

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Speaker 3: Starts giving me all his like critiques of the guy

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Speaker 3: who's never listened to a podcast in his life, you know,

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Speaker 3: So he's like and then he just goes on this

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Speaker 3: loop about now do you think I'm gonna be helpful?

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Speaker 3: Do you think I'm gonna be like help other dads?

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Speaker 3: And I think it was really just his nerves coming up.

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Speaker 3: It was very cute, but he was so nervous to

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Speaker 3: have this conversation with me because to him it probably

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Speaker 3: feels like a really big deal that his story's going

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Speaker 3: to kind of be out there and people can listen

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Speaker 3: to it. And I don't know if I gave that

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Speaker 3: enough like TLC and really health space for that for

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Speaker 3: many of my guests, because for some of these people

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Speaker 3: it's their first time really having a mic put in

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Speaker 3: front of them, So I don't know.

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Speaker 2: It was a cute father son moment.

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Speaker 1: Cute is such an understatement because your dad's story with

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Speaker 1: you and in relation to you is so powerful for

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Speaker 1: so many parents that have kids that struggled with what

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Speaker 1: you struggled with. So I can't wait to listen to

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Speaker 1: that episode.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, Yeah for all the phones and cameras are

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Speaker 3: so much a part of our lives today. But I

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Speaker 3: will say having that conversation on tape filmed with my father, who,

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Speaker 3: like I said, is eighty three years old, and being

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Speaker 3: able to have that for forever and ever is going

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Speaker 3: to be special.

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Speaker 1: Did you guys tap into things that you haven't maybe

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Speaker 1: talked about before.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah we did. I mean we look, my story

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Speaker 2: was a big part of it.

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Speaker 3: But then just I'm very fascinated by by by by

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Speaker 3: old people who have lived a long life and hearing

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Speaker 3: from them what their regrets are, right and trying to

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Speaker 3: learn from their experience. And he shared some of those

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Speaker 3: things and the moral of the stories money doesn't matter,

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Speaker 3: you know, And you know, we talked a lot about

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Speaker 3: this idea that there's like real friends and deal friends,

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Speaker 3: you know, and like the real friends are the people

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Speaker 3: that I want to be around, not these people that

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Speaker 3: are kind of pulling on strings for whatever reason. But

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Speaker 3: it was I hope there's some wisdom in there for.

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Speaker 2: For the masses.

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Speaker 1: Maybe give us one tidbit that you guys kind of

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Speaker 1: uncovered through your conversation.

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Speaker 3: I don't want to make assumptions that people, you know,

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Speaker 3: listening to this podcast know who I am, but like

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Speaker 3: a big part of my story is I am someone

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Speaker 3: that's in long term recovery from substance abuse. You know,

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Speaker 3: I was, I had a brain tumor, which turned in

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Speaker 3: to a pill addiction, which ultimately led me to a

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Speaker 3: heroin addiction. And not that I didn't know this, but

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Speaker 3: hearing my dad retell and replay my story and feeling

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Speaker 3: that pain that he was in when I was kind

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Speaker 3: of at my bottom, it was just a good reminder,

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Speaker 3: you know.

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Speaker 2: It was just a good reminder for me.

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Speaker 3: So I don't know if it was something that was

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Speaker 3: newly uncovered, but it just brought me back to that

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Speaker 3: time in my life where where I was such a mess,

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Speaker 3: and I just have a lot of gratitude for him

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Speaker 3: and then the rest of my family for hanging in

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Speaker 3: there with me.

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Speaker 2: And also.

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Speaker 3: It reminds me that the family members in the recovery

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Speaker 3: process are oftentimes left behind, and my dad was My

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Speaker 3: dad was alone, you know, he was alone.

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Speaker 1: So sometimes growing up, it's hard to remember that your

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Speaker 1: parents are doing life for the first time too. It's

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Speaker 1: like sometimes we expect our parents to have all the answers.

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Speaker 1: But it really must have been very therapeutic to sit

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Speaker 1: down with your dad and understand that, you know, he's

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Speaker 1: human too, and even though it was a very new

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Speaker 1: experience for you and what you were going through was

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Speaker 1: the same thing for him in a different way and

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Speaker 1: in a different role.

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Speaker 3: So wow, I mean, look, I I that perspective that

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Speaker 3: you just gave. I think everyone should probably could benefit.

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Speaker 3: I got my post run high toele here.

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Speaker 2: Keep that organized, ye, keep care of it. Taking care

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Speaker 2: of it Nowac.

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Speaker 1: Is folding his post run high towel very neatly on

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Speaker 1: his way, like.

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Speaker 2: I come back from the rainy run and they have

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Speaker 2: the towel.

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Speaker 3: This is an operation here, No, but I think that's right,

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Speaker 3: you know, And in my work we explain to our

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Speaker 3: patients and our clients all the time who are trying

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Speaker 3: to sober, working on their mental health at hey, like

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Speaker 3: you know, your parents are doing the best they can too,

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Speaker 3: and it's not always.

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Speaker 2: Going to be great, right, They're human beings.

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Speaker 1: Right, So well, I'm excited to get into everything you

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Speaker 1: guys are doing with release recovery and the system that

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Speaker 1: you put your clients and patients through. So I would

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Speaker 1: love it, though, if we could start at the beginning

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Speaker 1: of your journey. Let's walk people back and tell them

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Speaker 1: a little bit about who Zach is. Where did you

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Speaker 1: grow up? What was your childhood?

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Speaker 2: Like, yeah, I mean the short I'm one of five kids.

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Speaker 1: Wow, yeah, where do you fall?

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Speaker 3: I'm second youngest. I have a younger sister and then

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Speaker 3: three older siblings. And I love my family, like my

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Speaker 3: parents are my best friends to this day.

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Speaker 2: I I feel.

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Speaker 3: Like family wasn't grained in me at a at a

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Speaker 3: young age. That you just respect family and you respect

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Speaker 3: what that means and and kind of like the generational

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Speaker 3: sacrifice that's been made for you to be able to

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Speaker 3: live this life. And so I would tell you that

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Speaker 3: I grew up in a to the outside world like

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Speaker 3: what was a pretty normal home. But behind the white

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Speaker 3: picket fence, there's always there's always crap, there's always garbage,

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Speaker 3: you know, Like my sister's been very open about an

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Speaker 3: eating disorder. You know, obviously my mental health and selfstance

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Speaker 3: pute struggles have been broadcast pretty widely. You know, mom

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Speaker 3: and dad don't always get along, you know, like you know,

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Speaker 3: so like it's it was a it was a what

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Speaker 3: I would clas like, what is actually a pretty normal upbringing.

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Speaker 3: And I was, you know, three sport athletes in high school,

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Speaker 3: played college baseball.

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Speaker 2: And I would tell you that, So I'm forty one.

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Speaker 3: I grew up at a time when cell phones weren't

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Speaker 3: at the center of our center of our lives. And

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Speaker 3: so in high school, I loved playing sports and I

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Speaker 3: loved partying. You know, so as long as I had

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Speaker 3: those two things, I was I was good. I don't know,

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Speaker 3: you ever seen the movie Dasing Confused? Seen you gotta

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Speaker 3: watch Dason Confuse.

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Speaker 1: It's it's do you relate to one of the characters?

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Speaker 2: They just like the.

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Speaker 3: Way that they drink in that movie, where they're just

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Speaker 3: you know, in the woods and driving around like maniacs.

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Speaker 3: That was very much kind of my high school experience

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Speaker 3: to a certain degree. At least we thought we thought

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Speaker 3: we were reliving that. We probably weren't as cool as

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Speaker 3: the characters.

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Speaker 1: In that movie, but you had a true out of

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Speaker 1: a movie or out of like a sitcom kind of

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Speaker 1: high school experience.

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Speaker 2: We thought.

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Speaker 3: So, you know, like we thought, so I probably wasn't

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Speaker 3: you know, it probably wasn't as.

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Speaker 1: Cool, But no, I think it could be. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's funny that you say that, because my fiance Jeremy.

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Speaker 3: Shout out, Jeremy that this dude is like grinding. He's

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Speaker 3: out there on the run and the rain like twenty

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Speaker 3: feet ahead of us, with like the gimbal right, I'm

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Speaker 3: learning all the names for these tools. But the magic

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Speaker 3: maker behind the scenes.

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Speaker 1: I was literally going to say that he's the mastermind

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Speaker 1: behind everything that we've got going on. So everybody say

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Speaker 1: thank you to Jeremy.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's no Kate Max Show without Kate Max.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but there's no Kate Max Show also without Jeremy.

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Speaker 2: True.

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Speaker 1: Since the beginning, it.

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Speaker 2: Was, he's agreed. He's not in the background, not heads.

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Speaker 1: Like, thank god. She finally says that he always talks

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Speaker 1: about his high school experience, and I'm like, I was

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Speaker 1: not like this in high school. Like in high school,

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Speaker 1: I was kind of shy. I was also an athlete,

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Speaker 1: but I wasn't. I mean, I definitely went out and

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Speaker 1: lived in New Jersey and had a great group of friends.

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Speaker 1: Glen Rock, I'm from Bergen County, Okay, where did you

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Speaker 1: grow up in Jersey?

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Speaker 2: Haddenfield so South Jersey. Yeah, live in Ramsey though.

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Speaker 1: Yeah that's Burton County.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: We played against Ramsey and sports and runner. I was

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Speaker 1: a runner, but I was really a lacrosse player and

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Speaker 1: then I tore my ACL twice and then I couldn't

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Speaker 1: play lacrosse anymore. But I have two brothers that went

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Speaker 1: to school for lacrosse and won a national championship. Like,

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Speaker 1: we were lacrosse family.

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Speaker 3: So like Maryland John Hopkins or they went to Yale. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: real underachievers in your family.

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Speaker 2: I know.

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Speaker 1: And then there's me. My parents were like, what are

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Speaker 1: we going to do with her? She's running with a

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Speaker 1: tripod with people on the streets of New York. What's

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Speaker 1: going on? My brothers are like working in finance. But

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Speaker 1: I love knowing that you had a true high school

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Speaker 1: experience because it's always so cool. No, I didn't hate

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Speaker 1: high school at all. I just it's so funny when

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Speaker 1: I hear from like based on what you just said,

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Speaker 1: and also having Jeremy that always talks about his high

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Speaker 1: school experience, like it just reminds me of One Tree

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Speaker 1: Hill or those kind of iconic shows that we watched

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Speaker 1: growing up where.

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Speaker 3: It was my best friends are the guys went to

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Speaker 3: high school with. Like still to this day, there's the

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Speaker 3: text chain of the fresh Cha merch commons.

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Speaker 2: Soon now it goes the text chain goes off all

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Speaker 2: day all day.

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Speaker 1: I'm the same way. I mean, Jersey people are just

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Speaker 1: the best. Yeah, I'm biased, but it's the truth. We

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Speaker 1: were at the Jersey Shore recently for Memorial Day weekend,

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Speaker 1: and it was fun being able to introduce Jeremy to

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Speaker 1: some of the parents even that we grew up with.

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Speaker 1: And it's just a really great support system there.

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Speaker 2: I love it.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious for you growing up, what did success look

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Speaker 1: like in your family? Like, how did your parents kind

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Speaker 1: of define it for you guys and all of your siblings.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think I got lucky with that.

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Speaker 3: My parents were not Like I was never grounded. I

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Speaker 3: was never in trouble. I would, you know, I would

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Speaker 3: throw parties at the house and my parents would come

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Speaker 3: home the next day or later in the week and

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Speaker 3: the house.

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Speaker 2: Would be a mess, and they would talk to me

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Speaker 2: about it.

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Speaker 3: Rather than yell and scream and send me to my room,

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Speaker 3: they would sit me down and have the conversation. I

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Speaker 3: would feel really bad, so I wouldn't do it again.

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Speaker 3: But I was never, you know, grounded or sent to

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Speaker 3: my room or anything like that.

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Speaker 2: So so for me, I.

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Speaker 3: Feel like my parents did a really good job of

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Speaker 3: instilling in me what like kindness and compassion and like

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Speaker 3: really rooting for someone looks like like I root for

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Speaker 3: people really hard because I want other people to succeed, right,

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Speaker 3: And I feel like I got that from my parents.

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Speaker 2: Because of the way they rooted for me.

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Speaker 3: So success was doing the best that you possibly can

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Speaker 3: in all situations. And I didn't always do that.

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Speaker 2: I mean I was.

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Speaker 3: A C plus at best student, you know, and a

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Speaker 3: lot of my energy was poured into you know what

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Speaker 3: took place on the athletics field, and they and they

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Speaker 3: and they loved me kind of like no matter what.

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Speaker 3: And they've done that, I think with all their children.

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Speaker 3: So it definitely was not you know, go to school,

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Speaker 3: get the job in finance and make a million dollars.

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Speaker 2: That was not what success looked like in my in

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Speaker 2: my home, and I'm I'm grateful for that.

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Speaker 3: On the flip side, when I told them I was

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Speaker 3: moving to New York City, they wanted to come and

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Speaker 3: you know, put me in handcuffs and not let me come,

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Speaker 3: you know, because like they're just small town that's what

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Speaker 3: they want, and that's what they wanted for me. I

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Speaker 3: will say, my father and I did have someone like

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Speaker 3: so there was an epic story where in the middle

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Speaker 3: of a like a state playoff game, my father was

337
00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,720
Speaker 3: on the sidelines yelling at me to throw, just throw strikes.

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Speaker 3: And I stepped off the rubber and I held up

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Speaker 3: the ball and I was like, you want to come

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Speaker 3: out here and try to throw strikes, tough guy, you know,

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Speaker 3: like in the middle of the game.

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Speaker 2: And we got into this. So maybe it wasn't all

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Speaker 2: how I remember it.

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Speaker 1: You but you ended up playing baseball in college, so

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Speaker 1: you got to have a little bit of the competitive

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Speaker 1: parents to push you into that. When you think back

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Speaker 1: on high school and knowing that you had this super

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Speaker 1: normal child, like good family, played sports the whole nine,

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Speaker 1: when did alcohol and drugs become not comparable to how

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Speaker 1: your peers were using them?

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Speaker 3: I think so for me, I started drinking at a

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Speaker 3: young age, probably like eighth grade was the first time

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Speaker 3: I had a drink and kind of carry that out

354
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Speaker 3: throughout high school and and through high school it was

355
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Speaker 3: very much. So I laughed today at the kids because

356
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Speaker 3: when I was in high school, we used to drink

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Speaker 3: a can of Budweiser and actually roll joints and smoke them.

358
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Speaker 3: Now they have these white claw or like hard cell,

359
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Speaker 3: Like there's a million different options. I'm like, drink a

360
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Speaker 3: Budweiser and smoke a cigarette, you know, like that's you

361
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Speaker 3: know now they're like they huff on these jewels and

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Speaker 3: so like it was a different landscape, right, Like it

363
00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:36,200
Speaker 3: was a different landscape for what I think drinking and

364
00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:41,120
Speaker 3: drugging looked like back then. And so throughout high school

365
00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:43,040
Speaker 3: it was kind of getting in when you could, right,

366
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Speaker 3: as long as it wasn't interfering with with with sports,

367
00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,920
Speaker 3: it was it was fair game. And so high school, yeah,

368
00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:53,120
Speaker 3: like drinking, smoking pot, and then really when I went

369
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Speaker 3: to college was when I started to experiment with you know,

370
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Speaker 3: you get your hands on like an adderall and you realize, okay,

371
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Speaker 3: like I can stay up all night, and like, what's

372
00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:03,880
Speaker 3: the next level of that? Oh, now I know the

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Speaker 3: guy that's like selling cocaine from in town, and you

374
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Speaker 3: just it always found me, right, And I was someone

375
00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:11,480
Speaker 3: who was always willing to take the risk. I was

376
00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:13,520
Speaker 3: always willing to try new things. And that was just

377
00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:16,840
Speaker 3: kind of my personality. And so if someone puts something

378
00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:18,760
Speaker 3: in front of me, like I was not saying no,

379
00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:20,800
Speaker 3: and that's just the way that I would roll. And

380
00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:24,880
Speaker 3: I had other friends that were like that. They also

381
00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:28,240
Speaker 3: knew how to stop, Like on Sunday night, they could

382
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Speaker 3: put it down and go to class all week and

383
00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:34,440
Speaker 3: kind of perform their life. For me, I was Tuesday,

384
00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:37,000
Speaker 3: you know, at six o'clock, I got some free time,

385
00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:39,720
Speaker 3: like let's get blackout, you know. So it started to

386
00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:43,200
Speaker 3: kind of take shape in college and really become a

387
00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:45,840
Speaker 3: part of my identity. And baseball. Playing baseball saved my

388
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Speaker 3: life because it was some structure. If I didn't have

389
00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:53,280
Speaker 3: that structure, I would have burnt it to the ground

390
00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:57,360
Speaker 3: in college. And so baseball and then I met, you know,

391
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Speaker 3: a girl that I dated and al married at a

392
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Speaker 3: young age. And she's not my wife now, but I'm

393
00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:06,680
Speaker 3: very grateful for her.

394
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Speaker 2: And so those two.

395
00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:11,399
Speaker 3: Things, like having this relationship and having baseball kind of

396
00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:13,280
Speaker 3: kept it together for me in college.

397
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Speaker 2: And then the.

398
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Speaker 3: Real like penultimate moment or the moment that brought me

399
00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:21,920
Speaker 3: to my knees is after college I got diagnosed with

400
00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,480
Speaker 3: brain tumor. So it was like the summer or two

401
00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:26,800
Speaker 3: after college, I was packing my car to go to

402
00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:29,080
Speaker 3: the Jersey Shore. We were gonna have this awesome weekend

403
00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:31,240
Speaker 3: with all my college friends and high school friends. We

404
00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:34,880
Speaker 3: had rented these houses, and I was feeling like garbage,

405
00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:38,160
Speaker 3: Like I just was not feeling good. And I remember

406
00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:42,919
Speaker 3: my family assuming that it was just hangovers, because at

407
00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:44,680
Speaker 3: this point I was young, I was drinking, I was

408
00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:47,280
Speaker 3: going out every night, and I looked at them, I said,

409
00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:49,359
Speaker 3: this is not a hangover, and no one believe me.

410
00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:51,760
Speaker 3: So I took it upon myself to go to this

411
00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:54,320
Speaker 3: kind of side of the room, like you know in Jersey.

412
00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:56,080
Speaker 3: It's kind of like one of these like shopping malls

413
00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:58,560
Speaker 3: that says like X rays or like you know, like whatever.

414
00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:02,720
Speaker 3: It was like imaging place, and they did a scan

415
00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:07,400
Speaker 3: and within you know, an hour of that scan, there's

416
00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:09,600
Speaker 3: an ambulance picking me up, taking me to the hospital.

417
00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:11,960
Speaker 3: And the next day I'm in surgery at University of

418
00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,320
Speaker 3: Penn Hospital getting this thing cut.

419
00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:15,440
Speaker 2: Out of the back of my head.

420
00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:19,359
Speaker 3: And I just remember thinking to myself, like I'm in

421
00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:23,760
Speaker 3: trouble because everyone in my life is telling me how

422
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:25,959
Speaker 3: I'm a hero and how this is such great news

423
00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:28,439
Speaker 3: and you're going to come back some strong, you know,

424
00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:31,639
Speaker 3: like that tiger mom energy, like go Zach.

425
00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:33,040
Speaker 2: You know, like so proud of me.

426
00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:37,560
Speaker 3: And I just remember thinking, I'm going to use this

427
00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,640
Speaker 3: so that I can drink more and drug more and

428
00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:42,439
Speaker 3: do the things that I want to do, because no

429
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,240
Speaker 3: one can say shit about it now.

430
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Speaker 1: When you say that you're going to use it to

431
00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:52,600
Speaker 1: drug more and drink more. Did that start with painkillers?

432
00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:55,359
Speaker 3: Well, it was just it was a mentality at the time,

433
00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:59,800
Speaker 3: which was no one, Hey, I just went through this thing.

434
00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:03,359
Speaker 3: I just had this surgery. You're not going to question

435
00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:05,399
Speaker 3: the way that I'm drinking. You're not going to question

436
00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:08,600
Speaker 3: the way that I'm living my life. I'm a miracle, right,

437
00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:11,800
Speaker 3: So it was almost this caper, this badge of honor

438
00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:14,959
Speaker 3: that I wore. But to your question, like, okay, so,

439
00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:18,880
Speaker 3: like where are the painkillers come in? This is pre

440
00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:24,280
Speaker 3: opioid epidemic. This is pre painkillers as we know them today.

441
00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:24,560
Speaker 2: Right.

442
00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:27,600
Speaker 3: Our society has done a decent job of bringing this

443
00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:31,160
Speaker 3: issue to the forefront, and overdose numbers are going down

444
00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:34,080
Speaker 3: and you know, we're starting to see some progress. But

445
00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:36,000
Speaker 3: at the time, they would send you home with a

446
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:38,280
Speaker 3: script of pills and I didn't know what they were.

447
00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:41,280
Speaker 3: So I started eating them like skittles, and next thing

448
00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:43,080
Speaker 3: you know, I ran out and I started to feel

449
00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:46,080
Speaker 3: like garbage. Right, you start detoxing and I said, oh,

450
00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:48,440
Speaker 3: I need more of those drugs, and that's when you start,

451
00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:50,440
Speaker 3: you know, eventually going to the street, you find a

452
00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:53,720
Speaker 3: drug dealer, you start paying money for them, and then

453
00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:56,360
Speaker 3: it becomes this cycle of Okay, you get your script

454
00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:58,560
Speaker 3: for the month, but once you blow through them, you

455
00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:01,400
Speaker 3: got to go out and live the last five to

456
00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:05,560
Speaker 3: ten days because you're gonna get sick otherwise. And that's

457
00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:09,120
Speaker 3: how the addiction really started for me. And then it's

458
00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:10,760
Speaker 3: just a progression, right, and you.

459
00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,920
Speaker 1: Start chasing the high. I think what's really interesting though,

460
00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:18,679
Speaker 1: is using the traumatic experience of having a brain tumor

461
00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,000
Speaker 1: having to undergo surgery, and a lot of people undergo

462
00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,200
Speaker 1: brain tumor surgeries and don't come back the same way

463
00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,879
Speaker 1: you came back okay, and you know, and then using

464
00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:32,159
Speaker 1: that experience almost as a mask to be able to

465
00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:33,800
Speaker 1: go out and party more and kind of use it

466
00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:35,880
Speaker 1: as an excuse. I'm curious, like, if you think back

467
00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:39,199
Speaker 1: to then, did you know in your mind and in

468
00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:41,120
Speaker 1: your heart that you were using it as an excuse

469
00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:43,440
Speaker 1: to kind of party and be like, I'm a miracle,

470
00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:45,400
Speaker 1: so I can you gotta let me do my thing.

471
00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:47,400
Speaker 1: I want to have fun and yeah.

472
00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:52,120
Speaker 3: So there's a thing that exists in everyone who So

473
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,639
Speaker 3: I'm proudly an alcoholic and a drug addict. And I

474
00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:58,880
Speaker 3: say those things because I think someone else out there

475
00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:02,600
Speaker 3: that's listening to this may be questioning that side of themselves.

476
00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:04,399
Speaker 3: Is just not that dramatic. It's just a fact of

477
00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:06,679
Speaker 3: my existence and something I'm very proud of. And so

478
00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:11,760
Speaker 3: I think, you know, for me, the great obsession, like

479
00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,960
Speaker 3: the obsession, is that I can drink and drug like

480
00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:18,520
Speaker 3: a normal person. Right, So for someone like you or

481
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:20,840
Speaker 3: remain in college or whoever, it is like I watch

482
00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:23,800
Speaker 3: people go out and have two glasses of wine and

483
00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,600
Speaker 3: go home and go to bed. That is not possible

484
00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:29,480
Speaker 3: for me. As much as I tried, that's never going

485
00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:32,400
Speaker 3: to happen. So when this is going on, I am

486
00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:34,240
Speaker 3: convinced that at some point in my life I'm gonna

487
00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:39,720
Speaker 3: be able to just stop circumstances, the job, the wife,

488
00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,600
Speaker 3: the family, thing, the opportunity.

489
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,280
Speaker 2: When I really need to put it down, I will.

490
00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:49,320
Speaker 3: And what I learned about myself is that that's just

491
00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:55,879
Speaker 3: not possible. There's no life circumstance or thing that is

492
00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:58,080
Speaker 3: going to prevent me from getting high.

493
00:21:58,119 --> 00:21:58,840
Speaker 2: It's just a fact.

494
00:21:58,960 --> 00:21:59,600
Speaker 1: It's a sickness.

495
00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:02,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, well it's my superpower now, but it is sickness.

496
00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,120
Speaker 1: Yes, it is your superpower now and it's we talked

497
00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:06,920
Speaker 1: about this on the run, but it's so beautiful how

498
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,320
Speaker 1: vulnerable you are and how open you've been with your story,

499
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:12,760
Speaker 1: because there are so many people that go through what

500
00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:14,439
Speaker 1: you went through and are still going through it, and

501
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:16,359
Speaker 1: maybe some of them are listening to this episode now,

502
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,000
Speaker 1: but there's so many people that have experienced with what

503
00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:22,680
Speaker 1: you experienced but almost kind of hide themselves because of it.

504
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:25,920
Speaker 1: And I think it's awesome that you're able to live

505
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,160
Speaker 1: your life loudly and be proud of it and also

506
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,119
Speaker 1: build this company around helping other people because of what

507
00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:31,760
Speaker 1: you went through.

508
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:34,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think for me, it's really it's

509
00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:39,280
Speaker 3: really about giving people permission to be honest and be

510
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:41,440
Speaker 3: curious about the life that they want to live.

511
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:45,560
Speaker 2: No one, why do we lie?

512
00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:45,879
Speaker 1: Right?

513
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:48,560
Speaker 3: We lie because we're scared someone that's going to judge me.

514
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:50,520
Speaker 3: I'm not going to get the outcome that I want.

515
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:54,080
Speaker 3: It's not going to go my way. I'm not enough, right, Like,

516
00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:58,000
Speaker 3: That's why I would lie, And so being able to

517
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,879
Speaker 3: be on the other side of that kind of fearlessly

518
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,199
Speaker 3: tell the truth whether or not the outcome is going

519
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:08,240
Speaker 3: to be to my liking, is a really freeing experience

520
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,960
Speaker 3: and one that I don't think a lot of humans

521
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:14,640
Speaker 3: truly get to get to have because.

522
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:17,879
Speaker 2: Everyone's trying to be something.

523
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:19,639
Speaker 1: And I think a lot of people don't realize that

524
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,439
Speaker 1: they deserve to feel free right of even if the

525
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,680
Speaker 1: worst crap you could have possibly done. And I want

526
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:28,560
Speaker 1: to get to some of the things that you've come

527
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,080
Speaker 1: forward about, even just like in your family life. I

528
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,840
Speaker 1: know one of them was your dad's class ring, but

529
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:34,520
Speaker 1: let's get to it.

530
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 2: You did your resource, Kay, let's go.

531
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:39,600
Speaker 1: But that's a big story to come forward to that.

532
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:41,359
Speaker 1: I probably would have kept that in my back pocket

533
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,320
Speaker 1: for a while, but let's let's talk about that in

534
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 1: a second. So you go from prescription drugs, alcohol drugs

535
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:52,680
Speaker 1: that are now recreational like marijuana, to heroin. When did

536
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 1: you dabble with heroin for the first time and was

537
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:57,360
Speaker 1: it a conscious decision for you?

538
00:23:57,920 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 2: Yeah?

539
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,679
Speaker 3: So I have a lot of thoughts on what you

540
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:05,439
Speaker 3: just said, so I'll just answer the question. I end

541
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,480
Speaker 3: up my timeline is two thousand and I get married

542
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,960
Speaker 3: by twenty ten, So June to two thousand and I

543
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 3: get married by by October of twenty ten. I'm in

544
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 3: rehab for the first time for alcohol and prescription drugs.

545
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 2: I leave rehab.

546
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:30,120
Speaker 3: Within two ish weeks of leaving rehab, my wife catches

547
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:34,679
Speaker 3: me for with drugs, and so what happened in rehab?

548
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 3: And I don't want to scare people, but I read

549
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 3: a book which was a memoir of someone that was

550
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 3: a heroin addict. And when I was reading the book,

551
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 3: I said, this sounds amazing, like I had this internal

552
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,720
Speaker 3: thought right as I'm sitting there trying to get sober.

553
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:58,159
Speaker 3: And so I left rehab very curious, which is probably

554
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:00,679
Speaker 3: not how you should be leaving rehab and went right

555
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:02,520
Speaker 3: back to the environment that I was living in. And

556
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,919
Speaker 3: so I was two weeks sober. I woke up in

557
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 3: the house me and my wife were living in. It

558
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,199
Speaker 3: was like a Tuesday morning. I had this thought that

559
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 3: I'm going to go drink. I went to the local

560
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 3: liquor store. I drank one of those tall flask of

561
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 3: vodka and that kind of gave me the moxie or

562
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:26,400
Speaker 3: the bravado to drive into Camden, New Jersey, which which

563
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 3: I knew there was an open air kind of drug

564
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 3: market there and bought heroin for the first time. Didn't

565
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,720
Speaker 3: think twice about it drove back to the house for

566
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 3: me and my wife were living. I put it kind

567
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 3: of in my glove box, the drugs, and when she

568
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 3: went to bed that night, I went and got it.

569
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 3: And before I even did it, she caught me because

570
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:52,120
Speaker 3: she heard me kind of in the car and came

571
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 3: back down. And so what happened that night is there

572
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 3: was obviously tears and it was very sad and you're done,

573
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,159
Speaker 3: You're You're gone, like I can't. And this is where

574
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,159
Speaker 3: this is where I think people who are struggling with

575
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 3: someone in your life, who's who's who has a substance

576
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:10,679
Speaker 3: abuse or mental health issue.

577
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:11,359
Speaker 1: She was.

578
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:14,639
Speaker 3: She did it in a way she said, I'm gonna

579
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 3: ask you to leave because I need to take care

580
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 3: of myself.

581
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:20,400
Speaker 2: This Like I still love you, I.

582
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,160
Speaker 3: Still know that you're a good person, but this whole

583
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:27,359
Speaker 3: thing that's going on here I can't continue to be

584
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 3: a part of. And that was it for that relationship,

585
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 3: Like she held that boundary, and in a lot of ways,

586
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 3: I believe that she saved my life.

587
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 2: And so I went.

588
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,360
Speaker 3: For the next eight months, I was I was off

589
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,200
Speaker 3: on a run. I mean, it was an epic kind

590
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:45,439
Speaker 3: of using everything I possibly could this is when I

591
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 3: start pawning jewelry and stealing and just becoming a monster

592
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:50,880
Speaker 3: of a human being.

593
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 2: And the entire time.

594
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:56,400
Speaker 3: I'm I'm you know, using heroin and smoking crack and

595
00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 3: it's my my drug habits probably ndred bucks a day,

596
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 3: you know, like trying to manage all the things while

597
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 3: continuing to work a desk job. You know, it was

598
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:11,199
Speaker 3: like this double life. That's incredibly fascinating to me.

599
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,159
Speaker 1: It is incredibly fascinating to think about that. Yeah, you

600
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 1: were able to be an active drug user on heroin

601
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:19,880
Speaker 1: and show up for your nine to five every day.

602
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,920
Speaker 1: But in a way you did, and can correct me

603
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 1: if I'm wrong. You did have the finances to fund

604
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 1: this lifestyle, although five hundred dollars a day is steep

605
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:29,959
Speaker 1: for anybody.

606
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean till till I didn't, you know, till

607
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 3: I didn't. And that's when I I mean, like when

608
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 3: you when I got out of college and you're making

609
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:38,399
Speaker 3: fifty sixty seventy thousand dollars a year, you feel like

610
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 3: you're on top of the world. I mean, that's a

611
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,160
Speaker 3: shitload of cash for someone coming out of like eating

612
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,120
Speaker 3: ramen noodles and you know, drinking natural light, you know.

613
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,160
Speaker 3: So I felt like I was on top of the world,

614
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 3: and I started to save some money.

615
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,160
Speaker 2: But and then you learn to kind of beg borrow

616
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 2: and steel. So there was nothing that was going to

617
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:58,680
Speaker 2: stop me from, you know, from getting high.

618
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 3: And I think the one thing that I that I

619
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 3: do want to comment on, Kate, is is heroin in

620
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:10,639
Speaker 3: our in our world is a very dirty word. But

621
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 3: the truth about heroin is that it is really just

622
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:20,159
Speaker 3: the street form of painkillers, you know. And so like

623
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:21,679
Speaker 3: when I when I was in the hospital and they

624
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 3: were they were pumping to laud it into my veins,

625
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 3: Like that's a very similar exercise as like when someone's

626
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 3: shooting up. Right, Like, there's people being shot up in

627
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:33,719
Speaker 3: hospitals all over the world right now because they are

628
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 3: in so much pain and they need that medication, right

629
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 3: and so intravenous drug use and and it's it's a

630
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 3: very scary thing because you're doing it yourself.

631
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 2: And I don't I guess I don't need to be like,

632
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 2: you know, showing you guys.

633
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 3: But and so like part of what I do is

634
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 3: I try to normalize some of these words because I

635
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 3: don't I don't want a mother or a wife out

636
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:57,400
Speaker 3: there finding out that their loved one is doing heroin

637
00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 3: and and and and and judging them anymore than they

638
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 3: need to be judged, right, Like, It's just it's just

639
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 3: where it got to for.

640
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 1: Me, right, And that is so interesting to learn. I

641
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 1: didn't know that. Yeah, that it's comparable.

642
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 3: To painkillers OUs, Like, it's all the same, they're all

643
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 3: the same class, right. So you're hearing a lot about

644
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 3: fentanyl right now in the world. So fentanyl is basically

645
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 3: a painkiller that is fifty times stronger than your classic

646
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 3: kind of you know, morphine or hydro Like I could

647
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 3: go into all the stuff, which I don't need to,

648
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 3: but it's just it's a really, really really strong painkiller.

649
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 3: And when people use that intraveniously or they don't have

650
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 3: the tolerance, that's why you overdose. I mean, if you

651
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 3: think about that word, you're taking too much.

652
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 2: Right.

653
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 1: The thing that I find so interesting about the story too,

654
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 1: is this eight months for you really spiraled after going

655
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 1: through something so traumatic in your personal life with your wife,

656
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 1: and it was almost an emotional reaction. Right when you're

657
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 1: spending five hundred dollars a day on heroin, How much

658
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 1: of that drug are you getting how long? Just five

659
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 1: hundred dollars of heroin?

660
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 3: And last, yeah, it's a great question no one's ever had.

661
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 3: You're good at this, so I can break it down.

662
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 3: So a shot of dope, A shot of dope is

663
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 3: ten dollars, right, Like that was like like a bag.

664
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 3: So a bundle is really like it would be like

665
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 3: one hundred dollars.

666
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 2: I think, I mean this is so long. I think

667
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 2: my math is right here.

668
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:20,959
Speaker 3: So if I would go out and get a bundle

669
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 3: of heroin, it would be kind of like ten bags

670
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 3: wrapped in a rubber band, and that would be one

671
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 3: hundred dollars. The bulk of that five hundred dollars was

672
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 3: being smoked in a crack pipe. So crack is is cocaine, right,

673
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 3: It's cocaine that you cook and then you put into it.

674
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 3: And so it's a very quick, very intense high. And

675
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 3: when you say someone's a crackhead, what they're saying is

676
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 3: there someone that just is like chasing that high over

677
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 3: and over and over again. And so for me, yes,

678
00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 3: was I spending probably a couple hundred dollars a day

679
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 3: on heroin?

680
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 2: Sure?

681
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 3: But really what took me to my knees was the

682
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 3: crack cocaine addiction, because that shit is once you start,

683
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 3: you absolutely do not stop. And if you just you know,

684
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 3: picture your brain, it's just a it's a day full

685
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 3: of Okay, I'm up here and then I'm crashing. It's

686
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 3: like the highest high from hitting the crack pipe and

687
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 3: then you immediately crash, right, And so then what do

688
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 3: you need to do? You need to get that high,

689
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 3: and you're on this journey all day long, and that

690
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 3: life is a is a scary one.

691
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 2: I mean, that's a scary life. I mean I was

692
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 2: completely entrenched in it.

693
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 1: So what would your advice be to people just recreational

694
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 1: doing it where maybe it is just a Friday and

695
00:31:57,600 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 1: a Saturday, good for you?

696
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 2: I mean, if you can really go out and just

697
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 2: do coke on a Friday and Saturday night.

698
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 1: Because I would say it's a slippery slow yeah.

699
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 3: I mean, look, here's the reality of it is. I

700
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 3: don't judge anyone's drug use.

701
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 2: I really don't.

702
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 3: Like there are people in my life that that do

703
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 3: drugs like and I don't. That's it's not my place

704
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 3: in this world to judge the way that someone else

705
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 3: is going to choose to live their life. My duty

706
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 3: is to be here when someone's ready to get help

707
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 3: or to be curious about what it looks like to

708
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 3: slow down or change. And I've seen I've seen it

709
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 3: happen in a lot of different ways. My advice today

710
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 3: is very, very very clear, and this is for.

711
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 2: Anyone.

712
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 3: I mean, I would say, like age is fourteen, fifteen

713
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 3: and up, because the our youth is experimenting at a

714
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 3: much younger age. Test your drugs, Like, there are ways

715
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 3: to test your drugs. You can get strips to test

716
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 3: for fetanol. They're getting better and better with it. And

717
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 3: if you're gonna go out and do drugs, like don't

718
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 3: do them alone, and do them safely, and know where

719
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 3: you're getting your drugs from. Like, there are some basic

720
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 3: things that we can do to stay alive. Because what's

721
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 3: happening is, and I'm sure you've read the horror stories,

722
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 3: is you know, these delivery services in New York City

723
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 3: are sending out batches. These batches are laced with fentanyl,

724
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 3: and all of a sudden, you know, NYPD's getting ten

725
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 3: calls in the course of an hour, people overdosing. And

726
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 3: you know they didn't have to die. Those people didn't

727
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 3: have to die. I mean, like Carrie narcam, which is

728
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 3: an overdose reversal drug. And so it's one thing to

729
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 3: say like, Okay, are you are you overshooting the mark?

730
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 3: Are you doing too much cocaine? You want to talk

731
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 3: to me about it? You want to reach out to me, Like,

732
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 3: I'm here to talk to anyone about that, And I'm

733
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 3: not going to hit you over the head with the hey,

734
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 3: you need to stop, right, I'm gonna I'm gonna ask questions.

735
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 3: But then on the flip side of that, I would

736
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 3: say there is a sophistication and like a way to

737
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 3: go about using drugs that doesn't have to end in overdose.

738
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,440
Speaker 1: I love that you say that. The way you just

739
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 1: said it is, you know, not hitting somebody over the

740
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 1: head by being like you need to stop. So, for

741
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 1: people out there that have loved ones or friends that

742
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 1: they think are experimenting too heavily with drugs, what is

743
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 1: your advice to them? What are the questions that you

744
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 1: should ask?

745
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, one is don't tell them to stop and don't

746
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 3: judge them. The last thing a drug addict or alcoholic

747
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 3: once a year is like you need to stop drinking,

748
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 3: Like well, internally, no shit, but like, it's not that easy, right.

749
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:36,919
Speaker 2: You know how many times people told me.

750
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 3: To slow down or stop drinking or stop doing like

751
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 3: I know all I need to know, right, And so

752
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:45,120
Speaker 3: what I say to people is if you are in

753
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:48,319
Speaker 3: their shoes for me. When I was struggling, all I

754
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 3: wanted someone to say to me is like, hey, you know,

755
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:56,919
Speaker 3: I really love you, Zach, Like I really care about you,

756
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:01,360
Speaker 3: and I'm noticing some behaviors and something things that are

757
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 3: a little bit concerning, and I just want you to

758
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 3: know that if you ever want to talk about it, like,

759
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:07,839
Speaker 3: I'm here for you and as someone who cares about you,

760
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 3: it didn't feel right to not say something. So many

761
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 3: of us walk through this life and we're scared to

762
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,279
Speaker 3: even have that initial conversation. If this is someone you

763
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:20,400
Speaker 3: love and you care about and you can't sit them

764
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 3: down and have an open dialogue around what's going on,

765
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 3: then then is.

766
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,840
Speaker 2: That really love? Is that really what we're doing here?

767
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 2: And so you know people think that hitting people over the.

768
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:37,759
Speaker 3: Head and saying you need to stop or you're in

769
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,280
Speaker 3: a like like that, that point of the finger never works.

770
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:42,839
Speaker 3: It's like it's got to be hey, I'm here, I'm here,

771
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 3: for you, and then if it progresses to a level

772
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:52,360
Speaker 3: where it's dangerous, obviously you know, getting a professional involved,

773
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 3: calling someone a therapist, a doctor, getting evaluations, getting some

774
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 3: counsel on how to approach it, because there are situations,

775
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:07,800
Speaker 3: especially now with our youth, where it's almost impossible to

776
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 3: walk through without a professional.

777
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's stats that do show that, Yeah.

778
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 2: It's getting worse.

779
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,279
Speaker 3: I mean, the weed thing is it's probably a conversation

780
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:19,280
Speaker 3: for another day.

781
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 2: But it's so bad.

782
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:24,799
Speaker 3: The weed is just so strong, and young people are

783
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,239
Speaker 3: literally losing their minds. Like I don't give a shit

784
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 3: if you're forty and you want to go to smoke

785
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 3: a joint rather than drink, or if you're thirty and

786
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 3: your brain is fully developed and smoke away, have a

787
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 3: pot farm in your backyard, I don't give a shit.

788
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 3: But to give a fifteen year old the weed that

789
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 3: is being produced and manufactured in our world today and

790
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:46,319
Speaker 3: saying hey, this is a safer alternative to drinking or

791
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 3: anything else, is fucking It's crazy because that person is

792
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 3: going to smoke that and they're good, their mental health

793
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 3: is going to potentially go to a place where they

794
00:36:58,239 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 3: can never recover from that.

795
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 2: Yeah.

796
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 3: I mean the number one thing we're seeing at release

797
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 3: is marijuana and do psychosis, which is basically someone who's

798
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 3: smoking so much weed that they're going into crisis mental

799
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 3: health situations and ending up in hospitals.

800
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 1: I actually just heard a story over the weekend. My

801
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:20,879
Speaker 1: mom was sharing with me with a family friend that

802
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 1: just went through that experience with their son where.

803
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,920
Speaker 2: Great k growing up. I don't understand it. The college athlete,

804
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 2: you know, I've heard the story of million tizing.

805
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,239
Speaker 1: Ivy League school exactly. I liked one of the things

806
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,320
Speaker 1: that you said, when it comes to a certain point,

807
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:39,280
Speaker 1: you need to get professional help. But I think getting

808
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 1: professional help, at least from from the experience that I've

809
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 1: had with like loved ones in my life, I think

810
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 1: there's a lot of embarrassment and shame that comes with

811
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 1: knowing that you need help. Right, So from your experience,

812
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 1: when did it get to the point where you decided, oh,

813
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 1: I'm going to go back to rehab and I'm going

814
00:37:57,719 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 1: to take this seriously, Like, was there a turning point

815
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 1: story for me?

816
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:02,760
Speaker 3: It was a great story of when I went to rehab,

817
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 3: which I've told it a lot, but I think it's

818
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 3: you know, worth you hearing. So my last couple of

819
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 3: days using was it was a survival game, right. It

820
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:15,360
Speaker 3: was a survival game at that at that point. So

821
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 3: basically what it looked like was waking up and figuring

822
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 3: out how I was going to get enough money to

823
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 3: go get high again. And so what had happened is

824
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:26,279
Speaker 3: I had been arrested for a duy and I had

825
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 3: been taken to jail obviously, and they said, you know,

826
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 3: you can make a phone call. I said no, thank you,

827
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 3: and I ended up kind of wandering back into the

828
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:43,319
Speaker 3: neighborhood where I was buying drugs to see if I

829
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 3: could cop, which is to go out and get the

830
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:49,799
Speaker 3: drugs that I needed to not feel sick. And so

831
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 3: the decision I made was to break into my dad's

832
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 3: office and steal a check and write it out to

833
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:56,360
Speaker 3: myself for the check and go down to the panc

834
00:38:56,480 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 3: bank in that neighborhood. And I had drug dealers with

835
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 3: me at this moment. My parents had kind of filed

836
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 3: a missing person's report, like no one really knew what was.

837
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:08,239
Speaker 2: Going on with me.

838
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 3: I think they were just kind of like waiting for

839
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:11,719
Speaker 3: the moment they were going to get the call that I.

840
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 1: Was for how long did they know?

841
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:14,919
Speaker 3: I mean it was it was probably three or four days.

842
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,760
Speaker 3: I mean, but like still, that's an eternity for your family.

843
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 2: And they knew you were using oh yeah.

844
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:22,719
Speaker 3: I mean yeah, I mean at this point, like by

845
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:24,759
Speaker 3: you know, the longer version of the story is like

846
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:26,800
Speaker 3: my dad's living in Jersey, my mom's living in Florida.

847
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 3: Like the whole family is completely separated over this thing.

848
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 2: No one knows what to do. Like, you know, it

849
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:32,800
Speaker 2: was a mess.

850
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 3: And I walked into this bank and I handed the

851
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:39,879
Speaker 3: bank teller the check. And this bank teller, her name

852
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:43,360
Speaker 3: is Randa Jackson. She is my angel.

853
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 1: I just got chills, said Ronda Jackson, not getting like

854
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 1: on my legs and stuff.

855
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, she's the best.

856
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 1: Yeah.

857
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:53,840
Speaker 3: She took one look at me and at the time,

858
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 3: just to paint the picture, I am two hundred and

859
00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 3: fifty pounds. I'm like not showered, I probably don't smell great.

860
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:04,720
Speaker 3: And and she just knew, like she knew something was wrong.

861
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 3: And instead of calling the cops or telling the manager,

862
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 3: she called my dad. You know, she did the kind thing,

863
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 3: she did the nice thing, and my dad happened to

864
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 3: be It was a Saturday morning. I believe it was

865
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 3: either Saturday Saturday morning. He was in his office. He

866
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 3: answered the phone from an unknown number, like he was

867
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:29,840
Speaker 3: just doing anything to try and get away, and he

868
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:32,239
Speaker 3: got down to that bank within like fifteen minutes of

869
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 3: talking to Ronda.

870
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 2: She said, I'm gonna try and.

871
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 3: Hold your I'm gonna try and hold your son here

872
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:38,799
Speaker 3: as long as I possibly can. And he walked into

873
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,239
Speaker 3: the bank. White is a ghost. I'll never forget it.

874
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:45,279
Speaker 2: Like white. White is this rug? Maybe this is cream white?

875
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 2: He was, white is a ghost. That was good.

876
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:49,799
Speaker 3: And he put his arm on my arm and he said, son,

877
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 3: we're going home, and I'll never forget like he like

878
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 3: with the second he grabbed my arm, I had a

879
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 3: spiritual experience, like something something left my soul and I

880
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:00,120
Speaker 3: knew you.

881
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 2: That my life was about to change.

882
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:06,319
Speaker 3: I was going to catch my break and the next day,

883
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 3: so that was probably August twenty eight, twenty nine, like

884
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 3: it kind of gets a little blurry of twenty eleven,

885
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,919
Speaker 3: and by August thirtieth of twenty eleven, I'm going out

886
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:19,320
Speaker 3: to rehab in Pennsylvania for the second time, which was

887
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:20,719
Speaker 3: ultimate and hopefully the last time.

888
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:22,799
Speaker 2: Stay sober. One day at a time.

889
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:24,760
Speaker 3: But I stayed there for four and a half months

890
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:31,719
Speaker 3: from August until like early twenty twelve January, and my

891
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:34,719
Speaker 3: counselor was like, where are you going to go? I

892
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 3: had no idea, and I ended up moving to New

893
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:40,319
Speaker 3: York City. I knew zero people like I knew no

894
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:45,240
Speaker 3: one here and started building a life like started building

895
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:47,719
Speaker 3: a life here that today I'm just really proud I

896
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:48,279
Speaker 3: never left.

897
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 2: I'm still here, so I can't get rid of me.

898
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:52,759
Speaker 1: Now. Well, you have so much to be proud of,

899
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 1: and we have to say, thirteen plus years sober, right, Yeah, congratulations.

900
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 3: August will be fourteen, twenty eleven, twenty twenty five, Yeah.

901
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 1: Fourteen, almost fourteen years. I mean, it's I want to

902
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 1: read this stat that I wrote down. According to long

903
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:11,440
Speaker 1: term studies, twenty to thirty percent of people addicted to

904
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 1: heroin achieve long term abstinence after treatment. Seventy to eighty

905
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 1: percent of people relapse within the first year after the

906
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 1: detox if they don't receive treatment or support. The stats

907
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:26,080
Speaker 1: are brutal when it comes to being an addict. But

908
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:31,399
Speaker 1: you are somebody that has beaten the odds, and you know,

909
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 1: I want to know what did your early treatment plan

910
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:40,440
Speaker 1: look like. And what does your treatment plan look like today?

911
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a great question. Thank you for those stats.

912
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 3: And I just will say, like, I'm so grateful to

913
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 3: be sober, and I really feel like it's important for

914
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 3: me to say the way that I define my sobriety

915
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 3: because it really is defined on an individual basis is

916
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 3: I don't drink and I don't do drugs, and for me,

917
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 3: like I don't really even like cooking food or eating

918
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:13,239
Speaker 3: food cooked with wine because I'm not willing to kind of,

919
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 3: you know, toe that line, oh it's cooked off, Well

920
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:19,400
Speaker 3: what if it's not? And it activates that part of

921
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:22,720
Speaker 3: my brain that you know, tells me to go drink.

922
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:25,880
Speaker 2: Here's the reality, and it's.

923
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:28,359
Speaker 3: It's very It's very true with running, it's very true

924
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:35,439
Speaker 3: with recovery. It's very true with life. When people die

925
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 3: by suicide or die by overdose, they die alone. They

926
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:47,760
Speaker 3: are not dying with people around them. Alternatively, when people

927
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 3: heal right from a mental health disorder, from a substance

928
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:54,319
Speaker 3: use disorder, from a heroin addiction, most likely you're going

929
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 3: to see them surrounded by a community. You're going to

930
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:58,959
Speaker 3: see them surrounded by a group of people who are

931
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:04,920
Speaker 3: who are taking similar steps as they are. And so

932
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 3: for me, my treatment plan when I got out of

933
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:13,800
Speaker 3: rehab was to, you know, go to twelve step meetings,

934
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:18,800
Speaker 3: get a sponsor, go to therapy and find community, find people,

935
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:19,960
Speaker 3: make friends.

936
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 2: I get twenty seven years old, go make friends, which

937
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 2: was terrifying, you know, terrifying.

938
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:31,840
Speaker 3: And that's what I did, you know, I didn't fight

939
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:35,879
Speaker 3: what they told me to do, and that was really

940
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:38,160
Speaker 3: refreshing because I tried to figure it out and do

941
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 3: it my own way for many, many years and it

942
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:43,319
Speaker 3: didn't work. And so I had the humility to say,

943
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 3: I'm going to try it someone else's way. And so

944
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 3: thirteen plus years later, what is my It's the same.

945
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 3: It's the same, you know, I it's not a struggle.

946
00:44:57,239 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 3: People say, oh, it's probably still so hard. Like I

947
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 3: can be around drug, I can be around alcohol.

948
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:03,520
Speaker 2: I can go out to the bar, I can you know,

949
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 2: I can do all those things.

950
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:09,319
Speaker 3: And I can choose when I leave, and I can

951
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 3: choose if I want to stay, because I've taken that

952
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 3: power back in my life. But my treatment plan, like

953
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 3: the things I do today are very similar to the

954
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 3: things I did in my first you know year, which is.

955
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 3: You know, I try to take a holistic approach, which

956
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:27,520
Speaker 3: is like physical fitness is very important to me for

957
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:29,840
Speaker 3: my mental health. That run we just went on, Like,

958
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:33,360
Speaker 3: I feel calm right now, I feel in touch with you.

959
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 3: I feel like this is where I'm supposed to be

960
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 3: because my mind got that little boost from the run

961
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 3: that we just went on.

962
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:39,359
Speaker 2: And I know that.

963
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 3: So for my mental health, I try to say physically fit.

964
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 3: I try to surround myself with people that I like

965
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 3: and care about and continue to make friends and connect,

966
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:53,840
Speaker 3: you know. And I and I still take my recovery

967
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:58,120
Speaker 3: very seriously, which means which for me means like I

968
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:00,759
Speaker 3: still do the things that they asked me to do

969
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 3: in those first ninety days because I know that if

970
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 3: I put anything in front of my recovery, I will

971
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:12,279
Speaker 3: become more likely to go get high again. So that's

972
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 3: like the job, the opportunity, the money, the girl, the

973
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:18,959
Speaker 3: house like whatever it is, the car, Like, I start

974
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 3: to put that shit in front of my recovery, I'm going.

975
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 2: To lose it all.

976
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 1: I love. One of the things that you said with community.

977
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 1: You know, finding community is so important in those early days.

978
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:30,800
Speaker 1: And not only have you found community, but you've built

979
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:32,800
Speaker 1: a community right with release recovery.

980
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:33,160
Speaker 2: YEP.

981
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 1: One of the quotes that you've said before is sobriety

982
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:50,320
Speaker 1: isn't about giving up, It's about what you take back.

983
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 1: I want to dive into that through the context also

984
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:56,280
Speaker 1: of what you guys do at release recovery.

985
00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 2: It's not a punishment. I love that quote because it's true.

986
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:03,319
Speaker 3: Oh, society for the longest time has taught us and

987
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 3: told us that getting sober means you're gonna go You're

988
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 3: gonna be shoved into a church basement, You're gonna have

989
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:09,759
Speaker 3: to go to shitty AA meetings with people that are

990
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:12,239
Speaker 3: twice your age, and there's no hope. And I've had

991
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 3: the exact opposite experience, literally, the exact opposite experience. I've

992
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:19,520
Speaker 3: gotten to do things in my sobriety that I never

993
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 3: would have gotten to do had I still been drinking

994
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:25,320
Speaker 3: and drugging. I mean, like the Phillies, so I'm a

995
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 3: diehard Philly sportsman. The Phillies won the World Series in

996
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 3: two thousand and eight.

997
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:30,360
Speaker 2: I was there. I was at the game. I couldn't

998
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 2: tell you a thing that happened. Right.

999
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:36,120
Speaker 3: Eagles wanted the Super Bowl in twenty eighteen Eagles want

1000
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:38,480
Speaker 3: the Super Bowl this year. I was at both those games.

1001
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:40,759
Speaker 3: I was present, I was with my father. We were

1002
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:43,359
Speaker 3: like crying tears of you know, like I remember these

1003
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:46,880
Speaker 3: like it's living this existence that is.

1004
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:50,960
Speaker 2: I never thought was possible. And so.

1005
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 3: You know, when when someone is getting sober, I think

1006
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:59,239
Speaker 3: the fear is that how am I going to socialize?

1007
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:00,800
Speaker 3: How am I gonna date? How am I going to

1008
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:03,400
Speaker 3: be around other people? How am I going to make friends?

1009
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:07,319
Speaker 3: Those are all lies that we tell ourselves because we

1010
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:10,120
Speaker 3: don't actually want to do the hard work. And what

1011
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:12,799
Speaker 3: I have found is that by putting in a little

1012
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:16,799
Speaker 3: effort and surrendering a little bit, it truly is not

1013
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 3: about what I'm giving up, the drugs and the alcohol.

1014
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:24,160
Speaker 3: It's about me, like what I'm getting right, It's taking

1015
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 3: my power back and jurisdiction over my life that I didn't.

1016
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:27,719
Speaker 2: Know was available to me.

1017
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:31,120
Speaker 1: A big part of your recovery journey seemed to be

1018
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:33,480
Speaker 1: going on the Bachelorette, right, and you made it to

1019
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:35,719
Speaker 1: the end of the show, you got engaged. Was it

1020
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:40,000
Speaker 1: hard for you to feel like you could find love

1021
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:41,400
Speaker 1: again and be loved?

1022
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:44,640
Speaker 2: Interesting question.

1023
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:48,960
Speaker 1: And Timeline was timeline wise as soon was that.

1024
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:51,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I it was well, I mean like I

1025
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:54,440
Speaker 3: was thirty six, forty one, I'm forty one now. I

1026
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:55,840
Speaker 3: was thirty six when I went on the show, So

1027
00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:59,400
Speaker 3: I was eight years sober when I was there, And

1028
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:06,279
Speaker 3: you know, you alluded to this on the run like

1029
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 3: was it real and and for me, It's.

1030
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 2: Like, yes, it was real life. You know, for me,

1031
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:13,399
Speaker 2: it was very real.

1032
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 3: I approached that just like I would approach anything else

1033
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 3: in my life, which is like I am going here,

1034
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 3: I am going to try to be myself. I'm going

1035
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:23,520
Speaker 3: to you know, like give it my all, and I'm

1036
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:26,000
Speaker 3: going to try and have like a really authentic experience.

1037
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:29,680
Speaker 3: And I feel like I did those things right.

1038
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:30,080
Speaker 2: And so.

1039
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 3: I'm forgetting a little bit what the question was. But

1040
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:38,840
Speaker 3: like timeline wise, like I was at a place where

1041
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:41,840
Speaker 3: I feel like I was pretty well adjusted.

1042
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:43,960
Speaker 2: I knew who I was.

1043
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:48,080
Speaker 3: I wasn't going there to try and be someone or

1044
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:49,640
Speaker 3: try to like like, I was just going to be

1045
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:51,759
Speaker 3: me right, which is like what I've learned to do

1046
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:54,760
Speaker 3: in my sobriety. And I get a lot of people

1047
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:57,080
Speaker 3: and I don't know if it's real or not, but

1048
00:49:57,160 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 3: like I feel like these people DM me all the time, like, hey,

1049
00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 3: I'm I'm in sobriety and like I'm being cast for

1050
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 3: the show, Like should I do it?

1051
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:08,960
Speaker 2: Like I can't make that decision for you, you know, like

1052
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:09,319
Speaker 2: I can't.

1053
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:10,799
Speaker 3: I can't tell you whether or not this is a

1054
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:13,840
Speaker 3: good decision for you. I know, for me, it was

1055
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:16,520
Speaker 3: the middle of COVID. There was nothing going on in

1056
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:19,040
Speaker 3: the world, so like it was either go on TV

1057
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:21,680
Speaker 3: or sit in my apartment on the you know, in

1058
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:23,239
Speaker 3: New York City.

1059
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:26,040
Speaker 2: And so I was like, let's do it. And I

1060
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:28,120
Speaker 2: ended up having, you know, for the most part, pretty

1061
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:29,239
Speaker 2: positive experience.

1062
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 1: And you know, we talked about this on the run,

1063
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 1: but it is amazing that through being on that show,

1064
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:36,600
Speaker 1: with the platform and reach that they have, you were

1065
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:39,680
Speaker 1: able to without even trying, raise awareness for something that

1066
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 1: so many people struggle with, and also bring hope to

1067
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:46,120
Speaker 1: so many people. And it's cool knowing that, you know,

1068
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:48,399
Speaker 1: now you're getting recognized on the street and people are

1069
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:50,279
Speaker 1: literally saying to you, you saved my life.

1070
00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:52,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a lot, and it's even more reason to

1071
00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:55,880
Speaker 3: take care of myself. You know, I can't take I

1072
00:50:55,920 --> 00:51:00,879
Speaker 3: can't afford to take on everyone else's story, right, and

1073
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 3: so for me, I try really hard, and we try

1074
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:07,160
Speaker 3: really hard at.

1075
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:07,960
Speaker 2: Release to just.

1076
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:12,279
Speaker 3: Answer the bell, you know, like when it rings and

1077
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:14,839
Speaker 3: let people know that there is a way out.

1078
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 2: And that's something that.

1079
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:21,759
Speaker 3: I've seen happen time and time again since you know,

1080
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:24,840
Speaker 3: kind of being on the show. And I'm I'm a

1081
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:26,799
Speaker 3: realistic I'm not going to be the guy out there

1082
00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:29,600
Speaker 3: with my shirt off like flexing for the you know,

1083
00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:32,760
Speaker 3: like whatever the thing is. Like like, I'm like my passion,

1084
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:37,239
Speaker 3: my purpose is to try to help people, you know,

1085
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:40,360
Speaker 3: make positive change.

1086
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:40,800
Speaker 2: In their life.

1087
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 1: And you have you know, it's funny. I was listening

1088
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:45,839
Speaker 1: to a podcast that you did back in twenty twenty four.

1089
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:48,520
Speaker 1: You said in this podcast you had forty five people

1090
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:52,080
Speaker 1: working for you. You now have one hundred, maybe a

1091
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 1: little over a hundred. You guys are growing massively at

1092
00:51:56,040 --> 00:51:59,759
Speaker 1: Release Recovery. Let's talk about when did you start Release

1093
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:02,520
Speaker 1: rect Recovery and give us a little bit of insight

1094
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:03,960
Speaker 1: into the business and how it operates.

1095
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:07,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, so founded in late sixteen, early seventeen. It's funny

1096
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 3: we just did we just did like this little you

1097
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:11,839
Speaker 3: know people people are.

1098
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:14,400
Speaker 2: Like, hey, there's new followers here. Let me reintroduce.

1099
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:16,280
Speaker 3: Myself, Like, we just kind of did that for a release,

1100
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:18,960
Speaker 3: and I hope a little bit.

1101
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:21,279
Speaker 1: More of a Hey, you have to always be reintroducing yourself, right,

1102
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:22,279
Speaker 1: that's what people say.

1103
00:52:22,520 --> 00:52:23,840
Speaker 3: I just kind of went through this and so like

1104
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:25,719
Speaker 3: what we do in a nutshell is yeah. So we

1105
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:29,759
Speaker 3: were founded in late sixteen, early seventeen as a kind

1106
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:33,400
Speaker 3: of higher at We bought a house in Yorktown Heights,

1107
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:35,799
Speaker 3: Westchester County, which is about forty minutes north of New

1108
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:40,400
Speaker 3: York City. And my career in behavioral healthcare started in

1109
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:42,160
Speaker 3: New York. I worked for some other people here in

1110
00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:44,560
Speaker 3: the city, and I, like, you decided to go on

1111
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:47,399
Speaker 3: the entrepreneur journey, and I'm very grateful that I did.

1112
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:51,400
Speaker 3: And we Yeah, we started with a house up in

1113
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:55,360
Speaker 3: Westchester County, thirteen beds, kind of higher end, highly structured

1114
00:52:55,600 --> 00:53:00,560
Speaker 3: transitional living for men and so at the time, and

1115
00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:02,919
Speaker 3: it's really like I'll I don't tell my entrepreneur story

1116
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:04,759
Speaker 3: a lot, but what I did there is I moved

1117
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:06,800
Speaker 3: out of New York City. I moved into this house.

1118
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 3: The relationship that I was in, you know, burnt to

1119
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:13,360
Speaker 3: the ground. So it was all in on this business,

1120
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:17,960
Speaker 3: on this idea of release. And I always joke like,

1121
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:19,600
Speaker 3: in that first year, I was doing everything. I was

1122
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 3: running the program, I was cooking the breakfast, I was

1123
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:22,880
Speaker 3: running the groups like I was.

1124
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:23,239
Speaker 2: I was.

1125
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:24,880
Speaker 3: I was doing it all, you know, like it was

1126
00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:28,520
Speaker 3: my entire life. And I really sacrificed a lot early on,

1127
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 3: and I think for any entrepreneur, anyone starting a business,

1128
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:34,799
Speaker 3: that's what is needed to succeed, right, And I loved it, so.

1129
00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:36,480
Speaker 2: It didn't it didn't bother me.

1130
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:40,920
Speaker 3: And from there we've just, you know, we we've grown

1131
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:45,120
Speaker 3: to today where we have seventy beds throughout New York

1132
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:49,239
Speaker 3: City and Westchester County. We have a treatment center up

1133
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:52,640
Speaker 3: in Westchester where we have a chief medical officer and

1134
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:54,680
Speaker 3: a bunch of clinicians, so we're really focused on the

1135
00:53:54,719 --> 00:53:57,160
Speaker 3: medical and clinical supports.

1136
00:53:57,719 --> 00:53:59,520
Speaker 2: Out of that location.

1137
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 3: We do a bunch of prevention and education work on

1138
00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:07,959
Speaker 3: college campuses. I acquired a company last year that really

1139
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:10,839
Speaker 3: focused on men's mental health on college campuses, and we've

1140
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:15,279
Speaker 3: since added women to those services, and so we're really

1141
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:18,880
Speaker 3: proud of some of that work. Because we've talked a

1142
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:21,839
Speaker 3: lot about my substance abuse today, but the mental health

1143
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:24,399
Speaker 3: stuff for me has also been a struggle from time

1144
00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:26,640
Speaker 3: to time, and so we're really grateful to be providing

1145
00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:30,360
Speaker 3: those services. And so that's kind of like the for

1146
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:33,160
Speaker 3: profit and we have an office in flat Iron and

1147
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:34,040
Speaker 3: you can find us.

1148
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:36,200
Speaker 2: Release Recovery dot com.

1149
00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:39,520
Speaker 3: And then in late right before I went on the show,

1150
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:43,000
Speaker 3: actually we got the five to zho one to do

1151
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:47,359
Speaker 3: a nonprofit, which is the Release Foundation. And it gets

1152
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:50,919
Speaker 3: a little confusing because they're both Released, and so that

1153
00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:54,680
Speaker 3: organization is a separate entity. And what we do there

1154
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:57,920
Speaker 3: is we raise money so that we can send people

1155
00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:02,120
Speaker 3: to treatment, not at our programs, but the programs who

1156
00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:05,759
Speaker 3: otherwise couldn't afford mental health and substance abuse treatment. And

1157
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:09,839
Speaker 3: so we'll probably raise I don't know somewhere around two

1158
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:12,799
Speaker 3: million dollars this year and give away a ton of

1159
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:16,239
Speaker 3: care and a ton of treatments so that people like

1160
00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:20,319
Speaker 3: me who were struggling and maybe can't afford.

1161
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:22,759
Speaker 2: Those services get to go and do that.

1162
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:24,520
Speaker 3: And that's how I fell in love with running, right,

1163
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:27,960
Speaker 3: That's how I've run all these marathons and the wild,

1164
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:29,200
Speaker 3: wild world of.

1165
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:31,240
Speaker 2: Running.

1166
00:55:31,560 --> 00:55:33,600
Speaker 1: I know I always see people or hear about people

1167
00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:36,600
Speaker 1: running through Release Recovery for the marathon, so it must

1168
00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:38,840
Speaker 1: be so cool for you to see. You know, I

1169
00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:43,120
Speaker 1: think what's beautiful about successful communities is when a community

1170
00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:47,279
Speaker 1: can run itself without the person that started it, right,

1171
00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:49,520
Speaker 1: And that's the cool thing about Release recovery is it

1172
00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:52,040
Speaker 1: operates on its own because you really have this powerful

1173
00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:55,240
Speaker 1: community of people that wants to show up for the cause.

1174
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:57,640
Speaker 1: So that must also be so cool for you, is

1175
00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:01,600
Speaker 1: knowing that you've built something that started with your story

1176
00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:03,040
Speaker 1: but really is bigger than yourself.

1177
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:04,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I forget.

1178
00:56:04,680 --> 00:56:07,520
Speaker 3: I mean like even this morning when we were when

1179
00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:09,600
Speaker 3: we were on our run and those girls recognize you

1180
00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:12,800
Speaker 3: and they kind of gave you what's up? Like those

1181
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:16,400
Speaker 3: moments that we take for granted now, you know, like

1182
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:18,279
Speaker 3: people weren't recognizing you three before.

1183
00:56:18,320 --> 00:56:19,960
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know how long ago you.

1184
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:21,840
Speaker 3: Start, you know, And so like for me, it's the

1185
00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:25,520
Speaker 3: same thing, right, Like I I was at High Rocks

1186
00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:28,680
Speaker 3: this past weekend watching some friends and someone I did

1187
00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:31,520
Speaker 3: not know, never seen this person in my life wearing

1188
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:33,440
Speaker 3: a Release shirt.

1189
00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:35,600
Speaker 2: All right? Cool? You know?

1190
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:38,040
Speaker 3: Like that that's the moment that I need to kind

1191
00:56:38,040 --> 00:56:42,000
Speaker 3: of sit with for a second and say like, hey,

1192
00:56:42,160 --> 00:56:45,239
Speaker 3: you go pretty hard and you you know, try your

1193
00:56:45,239 --> 00:56:48,000
Speaker 3: best and you're always pushing for excellence, but maybe you

1194
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:50,200
Speaker 3: can take a second and kind of acknowledge that, like,

1195
00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:52,759
Speaker 3: you're doing some cool shit, right.

1196
00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:07,560
Speaker 1: What are some of the things that you implemented into

1197
00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:11,680
Speaker 1: release recovery that you didn't have when you were getting

1198
00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:15,239
Speaker 1: treatment in the early days that you were excited to

1199
00:57:15,239 --> 00:57:18,760
Speaker 1: give to people that you realized maybe through just self discovery,

1200
00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:19,760
Speaker 1: was really helpful for you.

1201
00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:22,360
Speaker 3: I can tell I can answer that question in like

1202
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:25,080
Speaker 3: where I am today, like what I am focusing on,

1203
00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:33,120
Speaker 3: because I feel like treatment has changed, and I feel

1204
00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:37,680
Speaker 3: like in general, behavioral health care kind of stinks. If

1205
00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:40,080
Speaker 3: you go to a hospital, where are they putting the

1206
00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:42,800
Speaker 3: psych patients probably in the basement, you know, with the

1207
00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:46,680
Speaker 3: linoleum floors, and keeping them away from everyone else, because

1208
00:57:46,720 --> 00:57:50,160
Speaker 3: God forbid someone be around someone that's psychotic, you know,

1209
00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:53,560
Speaker 3: or having a bipolar episode or addicted to drugs, So

1210
00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:58,320
Speaker 3: they keep them away. So what we try to do

1211
00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:00,000
Speaker 3: is it's a little bit of fake it till you made,

1212
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:04,240
Speaker 3: like give them really nice environments and really good places

1213
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:07,120
Speaker 3: and comfortable places to recover so that they can be

1214
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:11,400
Speaker 3: in their mind without even realizing it, working towards that

1215
00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:13,840
Speaker 3: life and that that life is really available to them,

1216
00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:18,400
Speaker 3: and so taking a holistic look at we're really looking

1217
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:20,560
Speaker 3: at the food right now, like how are we feeding

1218
00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:24,240
Speaker 3: these people? How are they sleeping? Are they exercising? Are

1219
00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:28,520
Speaker 3: they moving? Are we paying attention to the things outside

1220
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:31,960
Speaker 3: of your traditional talk therapy and your twelve step or

1221
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:34,720
Speaker 3: other support groups right like? Are we really looking at

1222
00:58:34,760 --> 00:58:38,000
Speaker 3: the whole person? Like when I went to treatment, they

1223
00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:40,120
Speaker 3: didn't give me a physical right. They were just like,

1224
00:58:40,120 --> 00:58:42,400
Speaker 3: you're addicted to drugs, so you need to do therapy

1225
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:46,520
Speaker 3: and so you can stop doing drugs, which okay, works,

1226
00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:50,040
Speaker 3: But I feel like there is room for us to

1227
00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:56,680
Speaker 3: kind of pave the way with really giving the traditional

1228
00:58:56,920 --> 00:59:01,000
Speaker 3: behavioral healthcare patient a better experience, because that's what they deserve.

1229
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:05,080
Speaker 1: You guys are doing a lot. I've heard before that

1230
00:59:05,160 --> 00:59:07,640
Speaker 1: one of the things that you've also always been interested

1231
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:10,320
Speaker 1: in is being a sports coach and going back and

1232
00:59:10,760 --> 00:59:13,080
Speaker 1: you know, being a coach for high school a high

1233
00:59:13,080 --> 00:59:15,919
Speaker 1: school baseball team or something like that. But you're doing

1234
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:19,600
Speaker 1: a lot right now, five, ten, twenty years from now.

1235
00:59:20,160 --> 00:59:24,040
Speaker 1: Where do you see your life going, release, recovery going,

1236
00:59:24,120 --> 00:59:25,680
Speaker 1: Like what are some of the goals that you've set

1237
00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:27,720
Speaker 1: for yourself that you're like, we are going to accomplish this.

1238
00:59:28,160 --> 00:59:35,240
Speaker 2: Yes, business ownership is a wild ride. It really is.

1239
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:40,400
Speaker 3: And I am fully aware that I have a bullseye

1240
00:59:40,480 --> 00:59:47,080
Speaker 3: on my back because of some of the public facing

1241
00:59:47,120 --> 00:59:52,280
Speaker 3: opportunities like here today that I choose to be a

1242
00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:56,160
Speaker 3: part of. And so for me right now, I continue

1243
00:59:56,200 --> 01:00:00,280
Speaker 3: to really focus. I don't think people actually I know

1244
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:04,840
Speaker 3: how much I work, Like I work fifty sixty seventy

1245
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:05,720
Speaker 3: hours a week.

1246
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:06,240
Speaker 2: You know.

1247
01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:08,800
Speaker 1: I feel like I assumed how much you were right,

1248
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:11,160
Speaker 1: just because I know how hard it is to run

1249
01:00:11,160 --> 01:00:14,160
Speaker 1: a business, and you're running you're managing one hundred employees, so.

1250
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:16,560
Speaker 3: Well, it's very easy to And we talked a little bit,

1251
01:00:16,880 --> 01:00:18,200
Speaker 3: like see someone on social media like, oh my god,

1252
01:00:18,240 --> 01:00:19,960
Speaker 3: their life is amazing, like like they get to do

1253
01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:22,200
Speaker 3: all these fun Yes, I get to do a lot

1254
01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:23,800
Speaker 3: of really cool things. I get to be here with

1255
01:00:23,840 --> 01:00:25,880
Speaker 3: you this morning and go into the office a little

1256
01:00:25,880 --> 01:00:35,120
Speaker 3: bit later. But I am hyper focused on making Release

1257
01:00:35,240 --> 01:00:40,000
Speaker 3: Recovery run and operate so that it doesn't need me,

1258
01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:44,160
Speaker 3: and that's going to take a little bit of time,

1259
01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:46,840
Speaker 3: and that's going to take some really smart people like

1260
01:00:46,920 --> 01:00:48,520
Speaker 3: my father. One of the things he taught me is

1261
01:00:48,520 --> 01:00:50,800
Speaker 3: always hire people that are smarter than you. And I

1262
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:54,960
Speaker 3: feel like I'm starting to really do that. I do

1263
01:00:55,080 --> 01:00:58,560
Speaker 3: not want to work in behavioral health care forever. That's

1264
01:00:58,600 --> 01:01:01,480
Speaker 3: not it is hard, hard work. It is emotional work.

1265
01:01:02,280 --> 01:01:06,080
Speaker 2: It is a lot of weddings, a lot of funerals.

1266
01:01:06,120 --> 01:01:10,000
Speaker 2: You get it right, like it's just is so.

1267
01:01:10,120 --> 01:01:15,080
Speaker 3: I'm forty one today, I will say at fifty, I

1268
01:01:15,120 --> 01:01:19,600
Speaker 3: will have hoped to gotten Released to a point where

1269
01:01:19,640 --> 01:01:23,160
Speaker 3: it doesn't need me. And whether that means.

1270
01:01:23,040 --> 01:01:25,360
Speaker 2: I've sold it or like what you know, however that looks.

1271
01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:29,120
Speaker 3: I don't not married to the outcome from like the

1272
01:01:30,080 --> 01:01:32,360
Speaker 3: exit strategy, but that it.

1273
01:01:32,400 --> 01:01:33,360
Speaker 2: Is running.

1274
01:01:34,520 --> 01:01:36,800
Speaker 3: With my blood, sweat and tears all over it and

1275
01:01:36,840 --> 01:01:41,080
Speaker 3: my belief all over it. And yes, I hope to

1276
01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:44,360
Speaker 3: shut down social media and shut.

1277
01:01:44,160 --> 01:01:48,160
Speaker 2: Down you know whatever other responsibilities.

1278
01:01:48,160 --> 01:01:51,120
Speaker 3: I feel like I have to the world and coach

1279
01:01:51,200 --> 01:01:56,080
Speaker 3: some baseball and play some golf and catch some fish

1280
01:01:56,440 --> 01:02:00,880
Speaker 3: and hopefully, you know, still be working for Release foundation,

1281
01:02:01,040 --> 01:02:06,200
Speaker 3: like raising money to help people that can't afford treatment.

1282
01:02:06,320 --> 01:02:09,240
Speaker 2: I don't that sounds like a good life.

1283
01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:11,840
Speaker 1: Definitely. Well, As a fan of you, I hope you

1284
01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:14,200
Speaker 1: don't ever go off of social media for too long

1285
01:02:14,280 --> 01:02:17,280
Speaker 1: because I think you have a voice that needs to

1286
01:02:17,320 --> 01:02:18,320
Speaker 1: be heard, and.

1287
01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:21,440
Speaker 2: That's why I'm there. I appreciate that, you know, I

1288
01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:22,800
Speaker 2: appreciate that. Thank you.

1289
01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:25,280
Speaker 1: So. Our mission with Post Run High and the Running

1290
01:02:25,280 --> 01:02:28,240
Speaker 1: Interview Show is to get the world moving, not only physically,

1291
01:02:28,480 --> 01:02:31,720
Speaker 1: but movement has helped me so much mentally and emotionally,

1292
01:02:31,760 --> 01:02:34,080
Speaker 1: and I know we both share that in common. What's

1293
01:02:34,120 --> 01:02:36,400
Speaker 1: one thing you've taken back in your life that you

1294
01:02:36,520 --> 01:02:39,240
Speaker 1: hope helps get the world moving in a better direction.

1295
01:02:39,720 --> 01:02:41,800
Speaker 2: It's a great question. It may be exactly what you're

1296
01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:42,200
Speaker 2: talking about.

1297
01:02:42,240 --> 01:02:45,720
Speaker 3: I mean for me, right And we didn't talk about

1298
01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:47,400
Speaker 3: running a lot on this show.

1299
01:02:47,400 --> 01:02:52,360
Speaker 2: We did our run, but when I was.

1300
01:02:54,120 --> 01:02:57,800
Speaker 3: At my bottom, which we talked a lot about today,

1301
01:03:00,080 --> 01:03:04,760
Speaker 3: twenty seven years old, I was a mess, a mess physically,

1302
01:03:05,160 --> 01:03:09,120
Speaker 3: I was physically a mess. And so by me taking

1303
01:03:09,160 --> 01:03:14,360
Speaker 3: back my physical health right and really committing to running

1304
01:03:14,520 --> 01:03:20,640
Speaker 3: and lifting weights, I have been able to, I hope,

1305
01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:24,680
Speaker 3: impact the world in a lot of other different ways.

1306
01:03:24,720 --> 01:03:26,600
Speaker 2: Because if I'm not physically.

1307
01:03:27,560 --> 01:03:30,200
Speaker 3: Healthy, right like, if I didn't take back my physical

1308
01:03:30,240 --> 01:03:33,600
Speaker 3: health and hold on too that tightly, I would not

1309
01:03:34,720 --> 01:03:36,600
Speaker 3: be sitting in this chair right now, right like I

1310
01:03:36,680 --> 01:03:38,840
Speaker 3: never would have done the things that I've been able

1311
01:03:38,880 --> 01:03:43,000
Speaker 3: to do. So I think, honestly, there's a lot of

1312
01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:45,000
Speaker 3: parallels between the way that you would answer that question

1313
01:03:45,080 --> 01:03:46,760
Speaker 3: the way that I'm going to answer that question, because

1314
01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:50,440
Speaker 3: the opportunity and the things that have become available to

1315
01:03:50,560 --> 01:03:54,520
Speaker 3: me as a results of moving and running and just

1316
01:03:54,560 --> 01:03:57,080
Speaker 3: not being stagnant, like being a shark in the water,

1317
01:03:57,320 --> 01:04:00,240
Speaker 3: rights has allowed me to be an entrepreneur and be

1318
01:04:00,280 --> 01:04:03,480
Speaker 3: a good friend, and you know, start some cool initiatives

1319
01:04:03,480 --> 01:04:06,920
Speaker 3: and build some communities. And so really I put my

1320
01:04:08,880 --> 01:04:12,120
Speaker 3: substance abuse and mental health recovery first, but very very

1321
01:04:12,360 --> 01:04:17,680
Speaker 3: very closely after that, my physical health is something that

1322
01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:20,200
Speaker 3: I've taken back and use to hopefully put the world

1323
01:04:20,200 --> 01:04:20,920
Speaker 3: in a better place.

1324
01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:23,920
Speaker 1: Let's do one final shout out to for people that

1325
01:04:24,800 --> 01:04:29,439
Speaker 1: listen to this podcast and are newly learning about release recovery. Yes,

1326
01:04:29,800 --> 01:04:31,560
Speaker 1: how can they get involved?

1327
01:04:32,040 --> 01:04:34,560
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, I mean the moral stories.

1328
01:04:34,560 --> 01:04:36,640
Speaker 3: If you're listening to this podcast, you don't know who

1329
01:04:36,680 --> 01:04:39,040
Speaker 3: I am or what release recovery is. I mean, just

1330
01:04:39,160 --> 01:04:41,680
Speaker 3: and you have someone in your life that is struggling

1331
01:04:41,760 --> 01:04:44,920
Speaker 3: with a mental health or behavioral healthcare or substance abuse

1332
01:04:45,840 --> 01:04:50,200
Speaker 3: crises or issue, Please please please call us or look

1333
01:04:50,240 --> 01:04:50,520
Speaker 3: us up.

1334
01:04:51,080 --> 01:04:53,840
Speaker 2: Release recovery dot com is the website.

1335
01:04:53,920 --> 01:04:58,600
Speaker 3: I think it's just Release Recovery on Instagram. You know,

1336
01:05:00,120 --> 01:05:02,720
Speaker 3: I'm sure Kate's gonna tag me, but you can. You

1337
01:05:02,760 --> 01:05:05,120
Speaker 3: can DM me. We see the messages right and if

1338
01:05:05,120 --> 01:05:06,840
Speaker 3: you if you write us asking for help, we're going

1339
01:05:06,880 --> 01:05:09,440
Speaker 3: to get in touch with you because oftentimes the hardest

1340
01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:11,160
Speaker 3: thing to do is to ask for help, and so

1341
01:05:11,240 --> 01:05:14,000
Speaker 3: we want to make that a really wide kind of

1342
01:05:15,480 --> 01:05:17,320
Speaker 3: lane to get in if you if you want to,

1343
01:05:18,080 --> 01:05:18,640
Speaker 3: health is.

1344
01:05:18,720 --> 01:05:22,360
Speaker 1: Wealth and we really learned that from this episode today.

1345
01:05:22,720 --> 01:05:24,400
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for being with me, Zach.

1346
01:05:24,400 --> 01:05:27,760
Speaker 3: Thank you, kudos to you rooting for you guys. It

1347
01:05:27,840 --> 01:05:29,520
Speaker 3: was really cool to be with you today and I'm

1348
01:05:29,560 --> 01:05:30,520
Speaker 3: just if I can help.

1349
01:05:30,320 --> 01:05:31,160
Speaker 2: In any way, I'm here.

1350
01:05:31,240 --> 01:05:33,960
Speaker 1: Thank you guys so much for tuning into today's episode.

1351
01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:36,480
Speaker 1: Your support means the world to me and helps us

1352
01:05:36,560 --> 01:05:40,560
Speaker 1: continue bringing you inspiring conversations. If you've been enjoying post

1353
01:05:40,600 --> 01:05:42,920
Speaker 1: run High, please be sure to follow the show so

1354
01:05:42,960 --> 01:05:45,280
Speaker 1: you never miss an episode. Leave us a quick rating

1355
01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:47,920
Speaker 1: and share this episode with a friend. We've got great

1356
01:05:47,960 --> 01:05:50,800
Speaker 1: conversations coming your way and you won't want to miss them.

1357
01:05:50,840 --> 01:05:52,960
Speaker 1: I'll see you guys next week. I hope you got

1358
01:05:52,960 --> 01:06:01,360
Speaker 1: your post run high going