1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:04,520 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know from House Stuff Works 2 00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. 3 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:17,280 Speaker 1: There's Charles W. Greeny Boy, Chuck and Bryant and Jerry 4 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:21,799 Speaker 1: back in the his house. Now more guest producing. No, 5 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: that was a rough week she was, but she's back. Hey, Jerry, 6 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: did you hear that? Everybody? Probably not? Chuck? Yes, Jerry. 7 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: Have you guys ever heard how much manure a horse 8 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: produces in a day? I'm glad you went with this. 9 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: I was never really occurred to me. Go ahead, pounds 10 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 1: twenty five pounds of manure. Did you do the math? 11 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: Because I did? Right? Will you come with that in 12 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:56,640 Speaker 1: a second? Okay? So, um, just go back with me 13 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: a little bit, Chuck to the time when Daniel day 14 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 1: Lewis was walking around New York with meat Cleaver overacting 15 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: a little bit in my opinion. Um, And it's the 16 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: the late nineteenth century, and the horse is the u 17 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 1: is the preferred mode of transportation for everything from the 18 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: the most humble delivery cart to the greatest ambulance to 19 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: you know, people who like to ride horses. Three musketeers, 20 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:26,480 Speaker 1: that kind of thing. Everybody had a horse to the 21 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 1: limit to the airport wherever. So there were about two 22 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: hundred thousand horses in New York City in use in right, Yeah, 23 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 1: multiply that times twenty five pounds of poop a day 24 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: and what do you get chucked? Well? I did two 25 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 1: thousand because I thought that was the number. Okay, so 26 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 1: that's fine, We'll go with that. More than six point 27 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: two million pounds of horse poop per day deposited on 28 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 1: the streets of New York. Okay, Now, um, let's say 29 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: that's okay, Um, there's that many horses. There's six point 30 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 1: two million pounds of horsepoop every day. It's a lot 31 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: of poop. But not only that, there was no one 32 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 1: cleaning it up. It was not enough people cleaning it up. 33 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 1: Let's say that for sure. It was just left there 34 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 1: basically in a lot of cases, um to basically be 35 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 1: ground into the cobble stone. And you know, it makes 36 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 1: you think, like, I'll bet there's a substantial layer of 37 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 1: horse manure under the streets of New York that make 38 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 1: up like that initial stratum of of of Earth, the 39 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 1: Poopa sphere. I think, oh wait, that would be an 40 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: outer space. No, no, because the lithosphere is yes, so 41 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: you were dead on. Thank you the popa sphere Um, 42 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 1: things change a little bit. The New York Institute's a 43 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 1: department of health and a group of basically an army 44 00:02:56,160 --> 00:03:01,399 Speaker 1: of cleaning guys, very much like the the garbage man 45 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 1: that Homer Simpson envisions in the in the It's the 46 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:10,640 Speaker 1: Garbage Commissioner episode. I can't remember which one it is. Uh, oh, 47 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:14,360 Speaker 1: the Loveday episode is what it is? Okay. Um, These guys, 48 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:17,080 Speaker 1: they're called white Wings. They are deployed to clean up 49 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: the streets of New York and they do a heck 50 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 1: of a job. And possibly the fact of the the episode, 51 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: if I may take it please, this is where the 52 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:29,359 Speaker 1: term cleanliness is next to godliness is coined. Pretty cool 53 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 1: the New York Department of Health slogan in downtown New York, 54 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 1: Josh at the turn of the century. Back then was 55 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: a disgusting, filthy place. And yet I love New York. 56 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 1: I love the history of New York. We watched we 57 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 1: both watched the same Nova video on Typhoid Mary today 58 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: and they had photos of mountains of manure pushed to 59 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: the sidewalks, and uh, sort of like if you've ever 60 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 1: been in New York on garbage day. Imagine all those 61 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: garbage bags is poop, Yeah, but not pooping bags, just 62 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 1: mound poop. And they were dead animal carcasses. Did you 63 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: see that. Probably it was like these boys playing in 64 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: the street with just a dead horse right in the 65 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 1: middle of their little stickball miamond I guess he was 66 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 1: on base or something. And it was just a foul, disgusting, unclean, 67 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 1: unsanitary place, which, like you said, led to the formation 68 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 1: of the Department of Sanitation, Right, So the Department, the 69 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 1: Department of Sanitation um was imbued with a lot of 70 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:33,599 Speaker 1: clout from the get Yeah. And as you said that, 71 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: the Nova documentary on Typhoid Mary, it's called like the 72 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:42,799 Speaker 1: Most Dangerous Woman in America, but it's also on YouTube 73 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 1: under Typhoid Mary Nova. That's good. It was um, but 74 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:49,840 Speaker 1: they had a lot of cloud. They could forcibly inoculate 75 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: you with these new fangled inoculations. They could forcibly remove 76 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 1: you to a quarantine island, and New York had a 77 00:04:57,480 --> 00:04:59,719 Speaker 1: bunch of them. Yeah, that was popular at the time. 78 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:04,479 Speaker 1: But basically, your civil liberties could be entirely suspended without 79 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:08,359 Speaker 1: any sort of due process of law. Um. And you 80 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 1: if you were considered sick. And a lot of this 81 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: was based on this new understanding of science of germ 82 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 1: theory thanks to our buddy Louis past year bacteriology yep. Um. 83 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 1: So the problem was science reporting hadn't been established yet. 84 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: So all of the people who were in charge understood 85 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: what was going on. They understood germ theory, they understood innoculations, 86 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: they understood force quarantine, but no one had explained it 87 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 1: to the public fully right, So it's a recipe for disaster. 88 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 1: So there's this thing called typhus or typhoid, I'm sorry, 89 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 1: And apparently they were one and the same until the 90 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 1: nineteenth centuries. About this time, typhus and typhoid typhoid fever 91 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 1: were separated. But typhoid fever fever, which is the star 92 00:05:54,320 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: of this co star of this episode. Um. It's particularly asked, 93 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:05,480 Speaker 1: isn't it it is? Josh, we're talking not just ordinary diarrhea, 94 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 1: but doubled over cramping, painful diarrhea. I think you'd call 95 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:14,719 Speaker 1: that violent diarrhea, violent diarrhea, high fever, red rashes, sleeplessness, 96 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 1: death if you don't treat it. A lot of people 97 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:22,599 Speaker 1: through history have been stricken with it, including Mary Todd Lincoln, 98 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 1: Georgia O'Keefe, Rabbi Shankar I really uh, Frank McCourt author, 99 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: and Wilbur Wright actually of the Wright Brothers fame died 100 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:37,600 Speaker 1: from typhoid fever. Wow, pretty sad And that was I mean, 101 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 1: that's a scant uh sampling from a long, long list 102 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:43,279 Speaker 1: of famous people that have Those are the people who 103 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 1: count who had typhois. I think Lincoln's son actually died 104 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:48,599 Speaker 1: from it as well, but I don't think Mary Todd 105 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:51,479 Speaker 1: Lincoln died from it. Yeah, but you can know she 106 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 1: died of um or something like that is what they 107 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: would have called abraham hysterics, right, okay, nice. Um. So, 108 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:02,720 Speaker 1: before we started to get a handle on typhoid fever, 109 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 1: it's by the way, it's a um it's caused by 110 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 1: the bacterium Salmonella TYPEE. It's a type of Salmonella UM. 111 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: And before we got a handle on it with antibiotics, 112 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: apparently twelve percent of people died from typhoid. So it 113 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: was a big public health problem. Yeah, New York especially 114 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 1: there were four thousand new cases per year and killed 115 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 1: one in ten people at the time or one And 116 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: remember that that nationwide. Uh yeah, as I understand it 117 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 1: before antibiotic, so um, let's even just say tem percent. 118 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: That's a big public health problem. And because it's spread 119 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 1: by the bacterium salmonella. Did that come out weird because 120 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 1: it did in my head slightly a little bit of 121 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 1: the lazy tongue there, because because of because it's spread 122 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: through salmonella, or because it's a result of salmonella, it's 123 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: very very easily spread from handling your own poop e g. 124 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 1: Using the bathroom, not washing your hands, and then handling food, 125 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 1: uncooked food specifically. Yeah, it was normally considered to be 126 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: like a disease of the lower classes. Yeah, until nineteen 127 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: oh six. Was it chuck the summer of nineteen oh 128 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 1: six in a in a wealthy quarter of the United 129 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 1: States on Long Island called Oyster Bay. Billy Joels film, 130 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: I believe it's neither here nor there. Still, that's one 131 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 1: extra fact you just gave everybody. That's true. Uh yeah. 132 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: When it when it happened in Oyster Bay, it was 133 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 1: a much bigger deal because it was more closely associated 134 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 1: with let's say, the Lower east Side tenement housing the 135 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: filth of Lower Manhattan at the time they've cleaned all 136 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: that up. Now, um, it's expense. What you get though, 137 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: when you're in Oyster Bay is you get wealthy families 138 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 1: who can spend a little money, and that's what you had. 139 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 1: In the case of the Thompson family, they were afraid 140 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 1: that they would not be able to rent out the 141 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 1: house that they were living in because uh, people were 142 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 1: getting sick in that house over and over and over 143 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 1: and they couldn't figure it out. They decided to hire 144 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 1: an investigator who turned out to be a very prominent 145 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:21,679 Speaker 1: figure in this case name Dr George Soper, a sanitation 146 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: engineer and UH epidemiologists, one of the first epidemiologists really 147 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 1: looking to make his career well, he already had out 148 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: he had a reputation um of of you know, being 149 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: able to track any illness back to his source. So 150 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 1: this family, the Thompson family, is that the one who 151 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 1: owned the house or the one who's who got sick. 152 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 1: They owned the house, and I believe some family members 153 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 1: had also gotten sick. Okay, so but there was a 154 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 1: family that rented it originally that's where the typhoid outbreak 155 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 1: first happened. So maybe maybe they were just the homeowners. 156 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 1: The Thompson family hired Soaper I believe, yeah yeah, and said, hey, 157 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: we can't this house anymore because people are dying from typhoid. Concerned, right, yeah. 158 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 1: So Soaper gets on the case, starts some finds the 159 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:13,200 Speaker 1: family where the typhoid outbreak occurred, and starts interviewing the 160 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 1: heck out of him, and he's stumped. He can't figure 161 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 1: it out, like, where did this thing come from? There? 162 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 1: These are clearly patient zeros right here, like nobody else 163 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: on know Weyster Bay had it before then they didn't 164 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:29,319 Speaker 1: bring it with them from the city. There's somebody missing, 165 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 1: there's something missing. And he finally says, have I talked 166 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:35,680 Speaker 1: to everybody who was in this house in the summer 167 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:37,679 Speaker 1: of nineteen o six and they said you should talk 168 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 1: to typhoid Mary, I don't know. I didn't think of that. 169 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 1: He goes what you know, what he did was he 170 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 1: interviewed kitchen staff and it turns out that there was 171 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: a former employee that was no longer there, Mary Mallon, 172 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 1: and he said, wait a minute, you know, maybe I 173 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 1: should check this lady out. Turns out she loved to 174 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: serve this ice cream and fresh peaches. Which is uncooked. 175 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: That was her, I guess her. She was noted for 176 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:08,080 Speaker 1: that dessert, right, But even more incriminating than the dessert 177 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: is the idea that when he looked into her history, 178 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 1: she'd worked for eight families in ten years, and six 179 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 1: of those families said had typhoid outbreaks. So he began 180 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 1: to think that there was something special about Mary mallon 181 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:45,679 Speaker 1: and and that she was what's called a healthy carrier 182 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: meaning um and and I'm just gonna paraphrase this awesome 183 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:54,560 Speaker 1: way that Nova doc put it right. When you get 184 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:58,080 Speaker 1: typhoid fever, there's almost always a clear winner. If the 185 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:02,319 Speaker 1: bacteria wins, you doe, and if you if you win, 186 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 1: if your immune system wins, the bacteria dies. But there's 187 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 1: sometimes where there's a stalemate where your immune system continues 188 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 1: to function and you live, and the bacteria continues to 189 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 1: live in your system, which means you're healthy, but you're 190 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:18,320 Speaker 1: also extremely contagious. And that's what Soaper came to believe 191 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: Mary Mallen was. So she was technically she actually had 192 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 1: typhoid fever, but her immune system was able to suppress 193 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 1: all of it except the killing of all the bacteria part. 194 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:34,959 Speaker 1: So pretty cool, souper cool but interesting because this is 195 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 1: brand new. Yeah, and as guy's on the cutting edge 196 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: of this kind of thinking. Yeah, and he knew like, 197 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 1: potentially she could be the face of bacteriology. The first 198 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 1: bacteriology lab had just set up in New York City 199 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: and it was a burgeoning, uh not industry but science. 200 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:54,679 Speaker 1: So he was like, man, this is really gonna put 201 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 1: me on the map if I can probably prove this 202 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 1: at least. So he he didn't have any training in 203 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 1: science reporting either, though, did he He didn't have training 204 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 1: in people skills studently either. He goes to her and 205 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:08,079 Speaker 1: he's like, I finally found you. I believe you're infected 206 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:11,440 Speaker 1: with typhoid. So I need samples of your stool, your 207 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:13,679 Speaker 1: urine and your blood. By the way, my name is 208 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: George Soper. Good to me And she's like, oh, no, 209 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: you're not. Yeah. So it's about this time that that 210 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: Mary Mallen. We should describe who she is at least, 211 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 1: go ahead. Mary Mallen was Irish. She or Irish, came 212 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: over as a teenager by herself. She was born in 213 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 1: the poorest town county in Ireland, and Ireland at that time, 214 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:37,839 Speaker 1: especially in the poorest County not a great place to 215 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 1: be no, also dirty, also lots of death and dying 216 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 1: in filth and disease. And she was born in eighteen 217 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 1: sixty nine, so I think that's on the heels of 218 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 1: the Potato famine, if not still in the middle of it. 219 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: So she comes over as a teenager, lives with her 220 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: aunt and her uncle who passed away, and then is 221 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 1: basically on her own in New York. And by all accounts, 222 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:00,319 Speaker 1: as a result of how she grew up in Thanto 223 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: being on her in New York, she was very, very tough, 224 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 1: in fiery and independent and resourceful. Like had it been 225 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 1: anyone else, this might not have gone down like this. 226 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: They picked, literally not picked. But as it turns out, 227 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: it sounds like she was the toughest, most obstinate, stubborn, 228 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: fiery woman in New York City, right. And but she 229 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 1: was also good at what she did. She worked her 230 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: way up in the domestic servant classes to the pinnacle 231 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 1: of it. A cook in that era in the domestic 232 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 1: in domestic service, and sort of manager of the kitchen staff. Well, 233 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 1: not just that, almost the whole house, basically the all 234 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 1: of the servants. The cook was pretty much at the top, 235 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: maybe tied with the butler, depending on the house. But um, 236 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 1: she was a cook for all these these families, and 237 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 1: not just you know, families that could afford a cook, 238 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 1: but like very wealthy families. Um, really well at her 239 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 1: at her job. But she took no guff from any man. 240 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: And when Soaper came and told her that he wanted 241 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: her feces, she chased him off with a carving fork. Supposedly, 242 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 1: that's how Super reported it. Yeah, and you know, we'll 243 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 1: get into her specifics later, and she got a real 244 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: bad rap, but at the time there was, like you said, 245 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 1: there was no understanding on the public's behalf of this. 246 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 1: This whole zero I'm sorry, healthy carrier is not even 247 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 1: proven yet. So I mean, what is she supposed to do? 248 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 1: Just say, like, sure, I'll go with you stranger, take 249 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 1: my poop and and put me in a quarantine. Yeah, 250 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 1: So she fought it like she probably had every right 251 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 1: to right most initial though wouldn't normally, you know, brain 252 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 1: to a fork, a carving fork on somebody. But again 253 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 1: it's lost to history whether she really did do that 254 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 1: or not. It's a good story. So Super takes off 255 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 1: and he's not one to let his career just kind 256 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 1: of slip through his fingers, and he goes to the 257 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: New York Commissioner of Health, Herman Biggs. So Biggs was 258 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 1: he was the one. He was the first one, and 259 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: he was the one who was like, oh, by the way, 260 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:07,320 Speaker 1: we can come into your house and forcibly inoculate you 261 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 1: and your children if we want, and we will do 262 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 1: that too if we if we think that it's in 263 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 1: the interests of the public health. So Biggs was very 264 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 1: sympathetic to Soaper's description of the story of this crazy 265 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 1: Irish woman who was just patient zero and more than 266 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: one outbreak um and basically needed to be dealt with. 267 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 1: So he ordered a one of his case workers, a 268 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 1: few a few cops in an ambulance out to where 269 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: Mary lived a tenement. Yeah, Josephine Baker was the inspector 270 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 1: and not the dancer. No, but she apparently was pretty 271 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 1: tough lady as well. She started her own rainbow family. 272 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: Oh really yeah. Oh, and you know, we should also 273 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 1: point out one of the reasons that Mallon was so 274 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 1: upset initially was that she got the feeling that were 275 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 1: essentially calling her dirty an unsanit here because he explained 276 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: to her, like, oh, you go poop and then you 277 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: get poop in your hands and you handle peaches that 278 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 1: you feed people, and so she was very uh, she 279 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 1: was upset that they felt like she they were picking 280 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 1: on her cleanliness, like just a dirty Irish and mcgrinners exactly. 281 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 1: They were, you know, dirty drunks and causing problems and 282 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 1: that was just the stereotype at the time and she 283 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 1: wasn't like that, she said, right, so, um, soaper goes 284 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 1: to Biggs. Biggs orders some people out. They used their 285 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:33,440 Speaker 1: power and grab Mary. Well, she hides out in the 286 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 1: house for a while though okay, like it took three 287 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,639 Speaker 1: hours to find her. Well when they finally did, apparently 288 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 1: it took all either three or four cops to drag 289 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: her to the ambulance and then the the female case 290 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 1: workers sat on her for the whole ride to this hospital, 291 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 1: this quarantine hospital, where she was kept for a while. 292 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 1: And like you said, it's it just happened to work 293 00:17:55,480 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 1: out that the person who was who was tie Foyd 294 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: Mary was this very stubborn, obstinate, self assertive woman from Ireland, 295 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 1: and she came about at a time where there's a 296 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 1: big question about public health, like you know, where do 297 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:19,159 Speaker 1: an individual, civil rights and public the greater public good begin. 298 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 1: That's still going on, it still is. But she forced this, 299 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 1: this conversation into the national spotlight starting about now. So 300 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 1: they keep her. They test her. They they're like, you 301 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:33,919 Speaker 1: need to poop into this bag right now, and she 302 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:37,120 Speaker 1: did um and they tested it and they said, well, 303 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 1: thing's lousy with typhoid. They called her stool a factory 304 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 1: for typhoid. Yeah. And what they did was they said, 305 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 1: here's a deal. Give up cooking because that's how you're 306 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 1: transmitting this, and we'll let you go. And so did 307 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: they say that immediately from the article, but not necessarily 308 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:58,679 Speaker 1: from the document. I think they initially offered her that 309 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 1: deal that she refused stwhich was one reason why she 310 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 1: was you know, lambasted in the in the public later 311 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 1: on in newspapers. But again, at the time, she had 312 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:12,119 Speaker 1: managed to climb up out of the uh, you know, 313 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:14,399 Speaker 1: poor conditions that she was living in an Ireland and 314 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:16,919 Speaker 1: get a really good job and one that she was 315 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 1: good at and she didn't want to have to learn 316 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 1: something new and start over again. So at the time, 317 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 1: you know, like later on I can doll out some 318 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 1: of the blame on her, but early on she still 319 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:31,679 Speaker 1: feels well, It's like, I'm not sick. This doesn't make 320 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:34,400 Speaker 1: any sense. What does this healthy carrier thing? Yes, yeah, 321 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 1: she was not buying it at all, and she basically 322 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 1: came to believe that the public Health department had a 323 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:45,239 Speaker 1: vendetta against her personally and felt quite persecuted. Um So 324 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 1: when she said no, she wasn't going to stop cooking, 325 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 1: they said, okay, well we're gonna take you to a 326 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:52,359 Speaker 1: nice little island called North Brother Island. It's not a 327 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 1: nice island. Seven. They took her there in quarantine her. 328 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:58,679 Speaker 1: Their North Brother Island is a or it was a 329 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 1: tuberculosis hospital, old quarantine quarantine hospital, i should say. And 330 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: she didn't have tuberculosis, and she wasn't even sick, she 331 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 1: didn't have any symptoms, and yet she was being kept 332 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:12,439 Speaker 1: here against her will on North Brother Island, which you 333 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:17,880 Speaker 1: sent a killer urban exploration photo spread that I want 334 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:21,679 Speaker 1: everybody to go check out. It's creepy. It's on Gothamist 335 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: dot com and the g O T H A M 336 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 1: I S T. And it's titled a Trip to the 337 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 1: Abandoned North Brother Island. It is so cool. Yeah. Located 338 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 1: there was a Riverside hospital and initially there was nothing 339 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: there and they said, hey, the idea of island quarantines 340 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:40,880 Speaker 1: was pretty popular at the time, so we should build 341 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,120 Speaker 1: a hospital there so we can treat these people. But UM, 342 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 1: North Brother Island sort of gained a reputation over the 343 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:50,160 Speaker 1: years because one it was I mean, it was much 344 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:53,359 Speaker 1: more than tuberculosis. It was like later on it was 345 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 1: like heroin junkies were treated their syphilis like any kind 346 00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: of nasty disease or addiction. They would dump you on 347 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,159 Speaker 1: at Riverside Hospital. It was an asylum basically was it 348 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: was sort of like, uh, what's the DiCaprio, Shutter Island, 349 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 1: shutter Rock Island, um. But they had a hard time 350 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: staffing it with real doctors for a while because doctors 351 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 1: understandably didn't want to work there, so they had nurses 352 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:18,920 Speaker 1: only for a time. Eventually there was a public campaign 353 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 1: to clean it up and to build better buildings and 354 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 1: change his rep which sort of worked, sort of didn't. 355 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:29,200 Speaker 1: But UM in New York City at the time, especially 356 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 1: on the Lowery Side and where poor people lived, it 357 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,159 Speaker 1: had a very bad reputation as you don't want to 358 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 1: go there, because you go there and you don't come back. 359 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: People were afraid of it. So that's where they send 360 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:44,360 Speaker 1: this Mary Malin off to so and when she gets there, Um, 361 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:49,120 Speaker 1: she starts trying to get out. She hired a escaping 362 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 1: right now, using legal channels, she um. She she hired 363 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 1: a lab, a private lab, and started sending them samples 364 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:00,919 Speaker 1: of her stool and they were testing it and they 365 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:03,440 Speaker 1: were not getting the same result. Her boyfriend would sneak 366 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:05,920 Speaker 1: her poop to the lab and they weren't getting the 367 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,159 Speaker 1: same results that the Public Health Department said that they 368 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: were getting. UM. As far as her being a factory 369 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,639 Speaker 1: for typhoid, which could have been a false negative, right, 370 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:16,640 Speaker 1: it could have been because they said that you don't 371 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:19,679 Speaker 1: always find it in the testing, and that what they 372 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 1: said in the documentary. I believe so. But there was 373 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 1: a discrepancy and it was enough for her to get 374 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 1: her day in court New York Supreme Court. So she 375 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 1: makes her way. She's allowed to um to leave the 376 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: island to go for her court date. And basically the 377 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:37,680 Speaker 1: Public Health Department was like, look, she's a she's a 378 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 1: healthy carrier, and she's a public health and Mary's like 379 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,679 Speaker 1: these people are holding me against my will, and the 380 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 1: New York Supreme Court said you're a public health threat. 381 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: Go back to North Brother Island. Yeah. And around the 382 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 1: same time it started getting newspaper coverage courtesy of William 383 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 1: Randolph Hurst, who may have financed her um law. That's crazy, 384 00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 1: her legal expenses. Imagine it was. It was great for papers. 385 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:02,200 Speaker 1: So yeah, I could see him throwing a little money 386 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 1: towards it. But that's where she was dubbed typhoid Mary, 387 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,119 Speaker 1: and that's where the public cement really swung, because she 388 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:13,879 Speaker 1: was painted as someone who was willingly giving people typhoid fever. Well, no, 389 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,880 Speaker 1: she was. She was called typhoid Mary because they were 390 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,640 Speaker 1: protecting her um her identity as well. That didn't work 391 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:24,680 Speaker 1: too well. No, So Mary Um goes back to North 392 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 1: Brother Island and is there um for another Well, she 393 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:31,920 Speaker 1: was there for three years total, I believe, and on 394 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 1: in the third year, New York City got a new 395 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 1: health commissioner and he was not about basically squashing people's 396 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 1: civil rights letterly so he not. He not only freed her, 397 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:48,639 Speaker 1: he got her job. Yeah, and a lot of people 398 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 1: while she was incarcerated, and it wasn't incarceration I guess 399 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:54,880 Speaker 1: um there were a lot of people that did cry 400 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 1: out for her release at times, um public officials even, 401 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 1: but the Department of Health, basically it was such a 402 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,160 Speaker 1: unique case they wanted to experiment on her and said, 403 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,640 Speaker 1: now we're gonna test do some tests on her and 404 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:10,399 Speaker 1: not let her out. Well, they did do some tests 405 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 1: on or They thought that perhaps the gall block her 406 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,399 Speaker 1: gallbladder was the culprit. So they were like, we're gonna 407 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 1: take your gallbladder out, and she's like, nobody's touching me. 408 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 1: She's afraid they're gonna kill her, but it could have to. 409 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:26,640 Speaker 1: They did forcibly um medicate her. They tried some stuff out, 410 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:28,879 Speaker 1: and she said that she wrote in a diary that 411 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:30,920 Speaker 1: she if they keep this up for much longer, she'll 412 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,200 Speaker 1: surely die because it's just such a side effects were 413 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: so horrid. So it wasn't just like, hey, stay in 414 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:39,919 Speaker 1: this cottage, there's a nice view of the water. It 415 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 1: was it was rough for her. In addition to the 416 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 1: civil liberties being squashed exactly. And so, as you pointed out, 417 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,360 Speaker 1: the new commission comes in letterly of public health and 418 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,479 Speaker 1: a bit more sympathetic, Like he said, he found her 419 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: a job and laundry, which apparently was the bottom of 420 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:01,160 Speaker 1: the barrel for for a woman a woman's career aspirations 421 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 1: and in domestic servant like no money, like the lowest pay, 422 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:09,879 Speaker 1: the worst work. And she was like this sucks. I 423 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 1: don't want to do this, right, I don't want to 424 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 1: work in the laundry. Did you know that Atlanta has 425 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,639 Speaker 1: one of the taxi drivers in Atlanta? Um is a 426 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:21,680 Speaker 1: Ghanese king? Now? Why, that's what I thought of when 427 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 1: I UM, when I when I was reading about that. 428 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 1: When when she got a job in the laundry, It's 429 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,879 Speaker 1: like she worked her way past that. She's way past that. 430 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,719 Speaker 1: Is he? Really there's a Ghanese king coming to America 431 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 1: who operates a cab here in Atlanta. Ain't none but 432 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 1: ltraperm Yeah, that was a good movie. I could quote 433 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:46,440 Speaker 1: it from heart, I think in full. Let's start, okay, 434 00:25:47,000 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 1: barking like a dog. Oh alright, So back to Mary. 435 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,119 Speaker 1: Where are we here? She's just been released or he 436 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 1: offered her the job, right, yeah, and she's out and 437 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 1: she's yeah, but she's making contact with the health department there, 438 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:25,119 Speaker 1: like we need to be able to keep up with 439 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,440 Speaker 1: you and make sure we know what you're doing and everything, 440 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 1: and then they're they're like, we know where she is, 441 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: we know what she's doing. We talked to her every day, 442 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 1: and Okay, we lost her. Yeah, we don't know where 443 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 1: she is anymore. Yeah, it's pretty cool at the time. 444 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 1: You could disappear and if you don't leave afarding address 445 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,400 Speaker 1: or it's like oh no Google searching going on there, 446 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:47,160 Speaker 1: you could disappear into the folds of Daniel day Lewis 447 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,880 Speaker 1: is overacting. So a few years after this, Josh, after 448 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:54,399 Speaker 1: they had lost her, Uh, Dr Soapers brought in again 449 00:26:54,640 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 1: to investigate another typhoid outbreak at the upscale hospital, Sloane Hospital, 450 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 1: and I think it was a baby birth in hospital 451 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: at the time, maternity hospital. And uh what they discovered 452 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 1: was Mary was cooking in the kitchen at the hospital. Yeah, 453 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:20,119 Speaker 1: under an assumed name. Doctors and nurses were sick, and 454 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 1: I believe two of them died and they said, you know, um, 455 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,200 Speaker 1: you're in big trouble this time. Yeah. But not only 456 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 1: did they discover it was Soaper himself was called into 457 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,440 Speaker 1: the case. This is like Lama's rob and he exactly, 458 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 1: it is very much like that, Um, and he comes 459 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:41,880 Speaker 1: to the hospital and he recognizes Mary by sight as 460 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 1: one of the cooking staffs, Like you were kidding me. 461 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 1: She's whipping up her ice cream and beaches and just 462 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:54,119 Speaker 1: stops like amid stroke, like um, her hands awkward. So um. 463 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 1: This time she goes willingly. She knows that that it's 464 00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 1: it's over, it's done. She still doesn't believe that she 465 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:04,679 Speaker 1: is the um this a carrier or the problem, but 466 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,200 Speaker 1: she knows that they think she is, and that she's 467 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 1: broken some sort of horrendous loss. It was kind of 468 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 1: sad at that point from the way it was described 469 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,680 Speaker 1: in the documentary. She was just sort of like, I mean, 470 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,359 Speaker 1: all the fight of this fiery woman was gone, and 471 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 1: she's just like, I just can't fight this anymore. Take me. 472 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 1: And part of it, also, I imagine, was public opinion 473 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 1: turned against her. Like you said, the first time she 474 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 1: was incarcerated at UM North Brother Island, there was a 475 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,159 Speaker 1: lot of public outcry. This time there's a lot of 476 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,360 Speaker 1: public outcry, but it was against her because she had 477 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 1: willfully and knowingly gone back into cooking UM and had 478 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:44,719 Speaker 1: gotten more people sick. Yeah, and I think fifty something 479 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 1: cases were attributed to her in three deaths. Yeah, I 480 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 1: think fifty two is what I read. Um, And you know, 481 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 1: we gotta say, like, I'm defending her in a lot 482 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 1: of ways. But she they gave her a few pretty 483 00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:58,720 Speaker 1: good deals along the way that she did not take, 484 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 1: which was a to give up cooking be um. I 485 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 1: think at one point they said, why don't you just 486 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 1: move to Connecticut with your sister? And she was like, 487 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 1: I don't have a sister, and they're like, sure you do, Jane, 488 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 1: She's like, wait, are you having a stroke? Exactly? So 489 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 1: she didn't take him up on that offer, and um, 490 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 1: soaper promised her of the profits of a book that 491 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 1: he would write about her and about the situation, and 492 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 1: she was like, no, no, no, it wasn't that weird. 493 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 1: Anthony Bourdain is one of the experts in that Nova 494 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 1: documentary A little odd. Yeah, I guess he knows it's 495 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 1: typhoid Mary. He lives on Oyster Bay. I guess with 496 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 1: Billy Joel. So the legacy um of typhoid Mary is 497 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: this great debate over how much civil liberty, how many 498 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 1: how many civil rights does a person get to keep 499 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 1: when they pose some sort of public health threat. And 500 00:29:56,200 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 1: I guess the answer to that is contagion yes, have 501 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 1: you seen it? I have not. You did the other night, right, 502 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 1: it was good? Frightening? No, it was definitely like I 503 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 1: don't my back was tense the whole time. It wasn't frightening, 504 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 1: but it was. Kid. That was a really good editorial 505 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,800 Speaker 1: piece too that I read I sent you. Um, we're 506 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 1: basically this could have gone down in so many different ways. 507 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: It was sort of like the perfect storm of headstrong woman, uh, 508 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 1: healthy guy that didn't have a lot of people skills. 509 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 1: They said, if that or his opinion was, if that 510 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 1: initial meeting had have gone down differently, the whole history 511 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 1: might be rewritten. But it went down as them butting 512 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 1: heads and just got worse from there. Pretty interesting. So 513 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 1: typhoid Mary, was she a bad person? Josh, I can't. 514 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 1: I reserved judgment on historical figures. Okay, I don't. I 515 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:52,960 Speaker 1: don't know enough about him. Yeah, I think you can 516 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 1: only judge your contemporaries. Really, all right, what about me? 517 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 1: I reserved judgment on on podcasters? Yeah. So, Um, if 518 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 1: you want to know more about typeoid Mary, you can 519 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 1: watch Nova's excellent documentary The Most Dangerous Woman in America. Um, 520 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 1: if you want to know the origin of the word quarantine. 521 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 1: You should go back and listen to our Black Death episode. 522 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 1: But if you haven't heard it before and you've read, 523 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 1: don't bother emailing in. I know already, I know, I know, 524 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 1: I'm sorry. You can also look up the how stuff 525 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 1: works article who was typhoid mary T Y P H 526 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 1: O I D space M A R Y question mark? 527 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 1: You want to type that into the search bar at 528 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com And that means it's time 529 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 1: for a listener mail. They should do a good movie 530 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 1: about that. I can't believe they haven't. Yeah, this is 531 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 1: like great. At the very least, there has to be 532 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 1: a book on Soper, Like this is the kind of 533 00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 1: thing that the public eating up right now, you know, 534 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 1: thanks of this um Stars, thanks to this economic collapse. 535 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 1: You know the Stars Guard Stars Guard. Did you ever 536 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,640 Speaker 1: see that doing that live skit? It was during the 537 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 1: Stars outbreak and Uh Stars Guard. The actor what's his name, Peter, 538 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 1: he was on their pitching. It was like a little 539 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 1: infomercial and he's pitching the Stars Guard Stars cards. Awesome. Alrighty, Josh, 540 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 1: I'm gonna call this, uh Moon smack down, the Nicest Moon, 541 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 1: the Nicest Moons back down, we got all right, because 542 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:31,440 Speaker 1: we got a lot of and this guy was actually 543 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 1: really really over behind about it. Guys love the podcast. 544 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 1: I listened as I ride my bike to and from 545 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 1: work past the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco on 546 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,479 Speaker 1: my way to the Moon. Learning interesting facts makes my 547 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 1: day a little better. However, I had to send a 548 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 1: note about a couple of mistakes in the Moon podcast. 549 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,440 Speaker 1: You got the current theories about the formation of the 550 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 1: moon and how it affects Earth's precession right as far 551 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 1: as I know, and those are really the hardest things 552 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 1: to understand. So well done. Yeah, but you did perpetuate 553 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 1: a few mints. Number one, the Moon doesn't rotate and 554 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 1: is dragged along by the Earth. Well sort of. The 555 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:07,480 Speaker 1: Moon is held in place by the Earth's gravity, but 556 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 1: it does rotate. The reason it doesn't appear to rotate, 557 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,760 Speaker 1: which is what we were trying to say, uh, is 558 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:16,479 Speaker 1: because its period of rotation is exactly the same as 559 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 1: its period of revolution around the Earth about twenty nine days. 560 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 1: It's tidally locked, which brings me to point number two. 561 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 1: The moon has a quote dark side that is never illuminated. 562 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 1: Not true. I don't remember saying that, did we say 563 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 1: that we must have because everyone said that we did. 564 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 1: Maybe we didn't say this. Okay, we've just let people 565 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 1: believe that we don't know it, all right. The Moon 566 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 1: has one face we never see from Earth, but is 567 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 1: not permanently in darkness. That's known as the far side 568 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,200 Speaker 1: of the Moon. So it's Gary Larson, not dark Vader. 569 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 1: Huh uh. Number three, we have tides because the moon 570 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 1: quote pulls up on the water on the Earth and 571 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 1: pulls up on the Earth underneath as well. Definitely not true. 572 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,320 Speaker 1: While the Moon's gravity does pull the Earth and its water, 573 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 1: the effect is minuscule compared to the Earth's one gravity. 574 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 1: It's the horizontal differential in the Moon's gravity across the 575 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 1: Earth that causes the water to slide towards and away 576 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,560 Speaker 1: the direction of the Moon. So the water slide sideways, 577 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 1: not up. Wow, that's pretty cool. And that is from 578 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 1: Chris By and he he was very cool about it. 579 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:22,959 Speaker 1: Um and he says, ps, I'm a little worried about 580 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 1: going back and listening to the Sun podcast because the 581 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,360 Speaker 1: Sun is way more complicated than the Moon than Chris. 582 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:32,319 Speaker 1: Don't do it. Don't do it, just skip it, brother, Yeah, 583 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,200 Speaker 1: go listen to cannonball run. Yeah, that's a good one, 584 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,880 Speaker 1: no mistakes. That's a great, great one. Or Twinkies that 585 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 1: was pretty good too. Yeah, muppets, Yeah, anything but the sun, 586 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,840 Speaker 1: anything but that. Um. I guess if you have a correction, 587 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:48,960 Speaker 1: we want to hear it. Um. We we have. We've 588 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 1: been reading him again now lately. I think that's a 589 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:53,359 Speaker 1: good chuck. I forgot all about him, I forgot about 590 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,440 Speaker 1: being wrong. Well, we were right for a good stretch. 591 00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,799 Speaker 1: Well we weren't doing ones like on the moon or whatever. Yeah, 592 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 1: these tough ones are hard, Yes they are. If you 593 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:05,799 Speaker 1: have a correction, you can tweet it to us at 594 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 1: s Y s K podcast. You can um see us 595 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,960 Speaker 1: on Facebook at facebook dot com, slash stuff you should Know, 596 00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 1: and you can send us a plain old fashion email 597 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:25,400 Speaker 1: at Stuff podcast at how stuff works dot com For 598 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:27,840 Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics, is it 599 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:36,720 Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com