WEBVTT - Ep. 783: Does the Moon Impact Deer Behavior? 0:00:08.760 --> 0:00:13.320 If this is the me Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:18.560 bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listeningst you can't 0:00:18.600 --> 0:00:22.920 predict anything brought to you by first Light. When I'm hunting, 0:00:23.079 --> 0:00:27.640 I need gear that won't quit. First Light builds, no compromise, 0:00:27.760 --> 0:00:31.480 gear that keeps me in the field longer, no shortcuts, 0:00:31.720 --> 0:00:34.840 just gear that works. Check it out at first light 0:00:35.000 --> 0:00:38.639 dot com. That's f I R S T L I 0:00:38.760 --> 0:00:46.160 T E dot com for people. Oh no, the show 0:00:46.240 --> 0:00:48.200 is starting right now with this ring. Can it start 0:00:48.240 --> 0:00:48.800 with this ring? 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:49.160 Yeah? 0:00:49.400 --> 0:00:54.880 Sounds good dyland Mark Canyon. If he doesn't pick up 0:00:54.880 --> 0:00:59.120 where we keep it, you think, I see? Oh, Mark, 0:00:59.160 --> 0:01:01.920 you know who I'm sitting here with. I have no 0:01:01.960 --> 0:01:04.240 idea you're on you're on the You're not on the air, 0:01:04.280 --> 0:01:07.839 but you know what I mean, you're being recorded. Okay, 0:01:09.080 --> 0:01:10.280 Uh it's me Mark. 0:01:14.200 --> 0:01:16.680 I'm here with doctor Bronson Strickland. 0:01:17.520 --> 0:01:21.480 Hm hm, great guy. And I'm about ready to start 0:01:21.520 --> 0:01:23.919 telling him about the last thing you told me about 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:28.000 deer in the moon and I and I'm gonna like 0:01:28.080 --> 0:01:31.400 kind of make you look bad. Then I thought that 0:01:32.920 --> 0:01:37.320 that it was a very interesting point I was telling 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:39.720 you about how you know you and I have argued 0:01:39.760 --> 0:01:44.160 about whether deer are impacted by lunar phases. Yep, you're 0:01:44.280 --> 0:01:47.680 very I mean you're you're very aware of this debate. 0:01:48.720 --> 0:01:49.280 Very aware of it. 0:01:49.560 --> 0:01:52.880 I'm position is, well, I'll tell you what you said 0:01:52.880 --> 0:01:54.400 the last time we talked, Mark, and it was a 0:01:54.440 --> 0:01:56.760 long time ago, and it's stuck in my head, it's 0:01:56.760 --> 0:02:00.720 stuck in my craw you were you were kind of 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:08.640 hinting at that science can't detect the subtle difference. Is 0:02:08.680 --> 0:02:11.920 that could the subtle, subtle things that could make a 0:02:11.960 --> 0:02:16.560 difference between your success and your failure where you're like, 0:02:16.639 --> 0:02:21.119 if that buck steps out of the woods a minute earlier, 0:02:22.919 --> 0:02:28.000 that could be the difference and science can't find that. Yes, 0:02:29.800 --> 0:02:31.640 So when I say about how you think that, you 0:02:31.680 --> 0:02:38.200 still think that, well, that has been not my position, 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:38.840 but my. 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:42.080 No, you didn't put it to me like a question. 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:46.120 So I've always said that that is the question that 0:02:46.240 --> 0:02:49.040 I feel like science has yet was like, there's all 0:02:49.040 --> 0:02:53.720 these studies that show that cold fronts don't impact movement 0:02:53.800 --> 0:02:57.200 in a statistically significant way, or the moon in many 0:02:57.200 --> 0:03:00.000 different ways has not shown yet to make a statistics 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:03.239 that's a difference. So I've always been curious though, because 0:03:03.560 --> 0:03:05.960 on when we see that in all the studies. On 0:03:06.000 --> 0:03:08.080 the other hand, you have all these other hunters with 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:09.960 anecdotal evidence that you. 0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:11.840 Know that says that's not the case. 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:15.200 And so my question has always been, maybe maybe we're 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:18.799 just not measuring in the same way or in quite 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:21.520 the right way to us these tiny. 0:03:21.240 --> 0:03:25.119 Little possible edges that you could get. 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:27.480 So I'm still like very much on the fence. So 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:29.720 Steel like, I'm just curious. I'm Moon curious. 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:32.040 That's how I've always described myself. 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:34.160 We already talked about you being Moon curious. 0:03:35.280 --> 0:03:35.720 I'm Mark. 0:03:35.840 --> 0:03:36.960 I'm Mark curious. 0:03:37.360 --> 0:03:37.520 Ye know. 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:41.400 And Bronson has done a really good job of a 0:03:41.440 --> 0:03:42.960 lot of this stuff. So I'm glad you're talking to 0:03:43.040 --> 0:03:44.880 him because he's someone who I listened to a lot 0:03:45.240 --> 0:03:47.520 and uh, and he certainly knows better than I. 0:03:47.520 --> 0:03:48.880 I'm simply a guy with questions. 0:03:49.080 --> 0:03:52.200 Yeah. Remember how I said you're on the air, Mark, Yeah, 0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:53.880 Well you know what I found all was interested ther 0:03:53.960 --> 0:03:56.800 day after the after learning at the other day where 0:03:56.800 --> 0:04:00.360 the FCC start like threatening people for say and stuff 0:04:00.360 --> 0:04:04.360 they didn't like. Yeah, I was like, the FCC has 0:04:04.400 --> 0:04:07.080 nothing to do with podcasts. But then I was like, 0:04:07.120 --> 0:04:09.600 do they the FCC has nothing to do with podcasts? 0:04:10.800 --> 0:04:11.960 Is that a question of statement. 0:04:12.000 --> 0:04:13.920 No, I'm telling you it's true because you're not on 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:14.280 the air. 0:04:15.120 --> 0:04:17.000 You're not on the air, you're not we're not using 0:04:17.040 --> 0:04:19.960 the air, so we can say like things and the 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:22.360 FCC won't threaten us and take the show off the air. 0:04:22.400 --> 0:04:24.480 So if they get mad about this lunar phase stuff, 0:04:24.480 --> 0:04:25.440 there's nothing to do about it. 0:04:27.640 --> 0:04:29.479 Saying a lot of crazy stuff about the moon over 0:04:29.520 --> 0:04:31.160 all these years, I would hate to be brought to 0:04:31.240 --> 0:04:32.080 court almose past. 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:35.960 You can do this the hardware of the easy way mark. 0:04:36.000 --> 0:04:40.200 That's what they say. All right, man, we'll talk to 0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:42.520 you later. Thank you. When the episode comes out, why 0:04:42.520 --> 0:04:44.840 don't you listen and we'll try to find out if 0:04:44.920 --> 0:04:46.800 what you're saying is a thing or not. 0:04:47.760 --> 0:04:48.760 I'm looking forward to. 0:04:51.040 --> 0:04:54.000 As we just said, day goodbye to him. Oh, I 0:04:54.040 --> 0:04:54.960 don't really do that. 0:04:55.240 --> 0:04:57.440 Never, No, not even if it's your wife. 0:04:58.279 --> 0:04:58.800 Definitely not. 0:04:58.960 --> 0:05:02.960 No, that is a of Steve's is it's a it's 0:05:03.000 --> 0:05:09.080 in the name of efficiency that please, thank you, hello, goodbye. 0:05:09.320 --> 0:05:12.960 Once you achieve a certain intimacy with Steve follow in 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:15.880 this category as well. That those pleasant trees are out 0:05:15.880 --> 0:05:16.279 the window. 0:05:16.520 --> 0:05:18.840 I think, I think that happens to me too, But 0:05:18.960 --> 0:05:20.799 and then I watch it happen to someone else. 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:24.240 If you really want to. 0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:26.600 If you really want to dig it, I'll take a 0:05:26.680 --> 0:05:30.760 quick break to take this for you. I like there's 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:33.599 people I talk to. I like the main people in 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:35.800 my life. I like I talked to him. I like 0:05:35.839 --> 0:05:38.360 to talk to him a lot, so that anytime we 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:40.839 talk it's only about what we have to talk about. 0:05:41.680 --> 0:05:46.279 The minute I go too long and I haven't talked 0:05:46.279 --> 0:05:49.200 to somebody, then I dread talking to him because we've 0:05:49.200 --> 0:05:52.280 got to do all the parts of talking that I don't. 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:52.680 Want to do. 0:05:54.920 --> 0:05:56.359 You know what I mean, how's the family? 0:05:56.600 --> 0:05:58.680 So if I keep up like a cadence, like if 0:05:58.680 --> 0:06:00.479 I call it Yanni, I don't need to get into like, 0:06:00.480 --> 0:06:03.080 oh geez, how you been? Is the householding up? Ye know? 0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:05.719 I mean, you know, and like wind up in something 0:06:05.800 --> 0:06:06.360 like that. Yeah. 0:06:06.400 --> 0:06:07.960 I come to expect no small talk. 0:06:08.080 --> 0:06:09.280 So I just like if I call you on and 0:06:09.400 --> 0:06:12.080 like hey blank blank, and he's like blank blank, and 0:06:12.080 --> 0:06:14.000 then we just hang up because we like kept up 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:16.359 on it and we don't have to do like whatever 0:06:16.480 --> 0:06:18.520 did happen? To your cousin you know I mean or whatever? 0:06:18.560 --> 0:06:21.920 You know what I mean? Like, it's just better that way. 0:06:22.120 --> 0:06:23.600 So I just like to. But I tell my wife 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:25.760 I love her, and I can always tell how I 0:06:25.800 --> 0:06:28.680 stand with her because I'll do it because I'm just 0:06:28.720 --> 0:06:30.200 trying to find out if she's mad at me about 0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:32.120 something so big I love you and she says I 0:06:32.120 --> 0:06:33.880 love you, then we're cool. If I go I love 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:35.320 you and she just hangs up the I'm like, oh 0:06:35.360 --> 0:06:39.080 my god, now what now? Okay, you know what I mean. 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:41.000 So that's how I find out if I got it, like, 0:06:41.680 --> 0:06:43.479 if I'm That's how I find out if I'm like 0:06:43.560 --> 0:06:44.760 cool or not. When I go home. 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:48.600 The longer I've been gone, the less likely I am 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:49.360 to get the return. 0:06:51.040 --> 0:06:54.160 You know, things get frosty at home. Join Today by 0:06:54.440 --> 0:07:00.039 Doctor Brownson Strickland of University of Mississippi. 0:07:00.000 --> 0:07:01.520 Mississippi State University. 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:03.400 Is that a big mistake? 0:07:03.800 --> 0:07:04.680 That's a pretty yeah. 0:07:06.440 --> 0:07:09.520 It's not on to make up for say, hot Toddy, 0:07:10.520 --> 0:07:11.239 it's right. 0:07:15.040 --> 0:07:15.800 Where do I see it on? 0:07:15.920 --> 0:07:16.080 Here? 0:07:17.240 --> 0:07:19.040 The bigger? 0:07:20.760 --> 0:07:24.280 Doctor Brownson is the Saint John Family Professor of Wildlife 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:31.200 Management and the Extension Wildlife Specialist for Mississippi State University. 0:07:31.200 --> 0:07:32.000 And what do you say when you. 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:37.240 Say that that that's that's another mess up. You've offended 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:38.640 more Mississippi State folks. 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:40.840 Yeah, what does it mean? Hot? 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:42.040 Hot like Christmas drinks? 0:07:42.360 --> 0:07:45.080 I do think hatty toddy means anything. It's a different school. 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:47.840 Yeah, that's old. Miss we booze it up. 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:58.800 Mississippi State University. Did his did his BS degree in 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:02.840 forest resources in the University of Georgia. Did a master's 0:08:02.880 --> 0:08:09.680 degree Texas A and m Kingsville PhD from Mississippi State University. 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:12.520 Bronson is the co director of the ms Here's where 0:08:12.520 --> 0:08:17.360 things get interesting. He's a co director of the MSU 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:23.080 Deer Lab, a certified wild wildlife biologist, and professional member 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:27.120 of the Boone and Crockett Club. We're this is We're 0:08:27.120 --> 0:08:29.679 here to make this is the most important podcast ever 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:35.520 ever done. I would say, because this is going to 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:41.000 be the final answer. This is gonna be we hope. Yeah. 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:45.160 Dudes out there that are like are they argue about 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:49.000 like the moon phase? And if I'm talking to Jay Scott, 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:52.920 We're going to go down to Mexico for Ko's Deer 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:56.319 And he's talking about what dates to go and he's 0:08:56.320 --> 0:08:59.840 talking about what the moon's doing on those dates. Is 0:08:59.880 --> 0:09:04.560 all of that true or not true? Every old man, 0:09:05.559 --> 0:09:08.320 young man, not even old man, every hunter has an 0:09:08.360 --> 0:09:11.360 opinion about what is the moon doing and how does 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:13.720 it effect dear movements. 0:09:13.800 --> 0:09:15.200 Jay Scott is one of those guys. 0:09:15.280 --> 0:09:17.760 I don't know where he stands now. Everybody changes. 0:09:18.040 --> 0:09:20.240 I used to just believe it too, because I like, well, 0:09:20.280 --> 0:09:23.240 I used to believe that squirrels, that red squirrels bit 0:09:23.280 --> 0:09:25.640 the nuts off gray squirrels. That's what I was told. 0:09:28.360 --> 0:09:32.439 He will definitely push us one way or another in 0:09:32.559 --> 0:09:35.560 January according to what the Moon's going to be doing. 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:38.400 When you know, so, I have a lot of I 0:09:38.440 --> 0:09:41.120 have a lot of friends that are lunar guys, moon guys, 0:09:41.200 --> 0:09:43.120 and like, here's the deal. And when we started playing 0:09:43.160 --> 0:09:44.839 It's out, I had a conversation with Krint about it, 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:52.280 and I'm like, it's not ridiculous, Okay, I mean, what's 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:54.880 not ridiculous about is look at all the wildlife that 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:59.560 that absolutely one hundred percent is driven by moonface. Okay, 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:03.680 Like turtle nesting, like when turtles hatch turtles, like like 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:11.000 shore nesting turtles that lay eggs, their eggs hatch on 0:10:11.040 --> 0:10:15.040 a new moon. Some species hatch where it's real dark. Okay, 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:18.080 what are the kind of examples we have? I mean 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:22.840 there's tons of things, man, fish, tides and fish. Yeah, 0:10:22.880 --> 0:10:25.440 think about it's huge. Well, here here's another one for you. 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:28.640 I remember they You ever hear the writer Barbara King Salver. 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:32.280 She had a book called High Tide and Tucson, and 0:10:32.280 --> 0:10:34.880 it was a book of like science writing. Was it 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:44.439 King Salver? Was it? They took these mollufs and brought 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:47.600 them to Tucson to a university what what universities in Tucson? 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:52.040 Camera They took these clams whatever the hell it is asu. 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:55.000 I believe it was clams. I'm sure it was clams. 0:10:55.080 --> 0:10:59.679 They had these clams in an aquarium and Tucson, and 0:11:01.320 --> 0:11:02.880 they didn't need the ocean to tell them what the 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:07.000 tide was doing. Their whole groove became tied to their 0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:10.640 whole feeding groove became tied to the moon. And it's 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:13.840 not even enough, like it's an imperceptible Like the effect 0:11:13.840 --> 0:11:18.880 on an aquarium is like imperceptible, right, But those suckers 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:22.360 tuned in and stayed on a lunar. They stayed on 0:11:22.400 --> 0:11:25.080 a lunar cycle without even being where there's a giant 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:29.440 tide swing. Right, they just knew. So it stands the 0:11:29.480 --> 0:11:35.920 reason with all these different creatures migratory birds, right, it 0:11:35.920 --> 0:11:39.280 stands the reason, Like, yeah, the moon impacts stuff. So 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:42.080 for someone to say that the moon impacts how bucks move, 0:11:43.080 --> 0:11:43.960 it's not crazy. 0:11:44.080 --> 0:11:49.040 It's not like dumb, it's not so Yeah, there is 0:11:49.120 --> 0:11:52.760 a lot of evidence for some species. And I think 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:57.040 the species you mentioned that does make sense. The gravitational 0:11:57.080 --> 0:12:03.480 pull affecting the tide or moonlight affecting visibility, all that stuff, 0:12:03.480 --> 0:12:05.800 to me makes perfect sense. And I think there's a 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:08.960 lot of examples in the literature for that and it 0:12:09.040 --> 0:12:13.160 being useful. But what I come back to is, but 0:12:13.640 --> 0:12:17.480 what made it that way? How did the story begin 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:22.559 for white tail deer? Where has there ever been evidence 0:12:23.280 --> 0:12:27.920 that its influencing whitetail deer except for Paul Paul the 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:32.839 stories that are passed down from grandfather today, you know, 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:36.520 and it just becomes part of the story, and it 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:39.920 makes it fun and it makes it interesting. And humans 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:42.760 are always looking for patterns, and we're really good at 0:12:42.800 --> 0:12:46.000 looking for patterns even when they don't exist, and so 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:48.640 it adds I think this element to making it more 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:53.960 interesting when the bottom line is, in my opinion, I 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:56.920 think the evidence is very strong they're not influenced by 0:12:56.920 --> 0:13:01.439 the moon whatsoever. And then you think about the natural 0:13:01.559 --> 0:13:04.160 history of deer and you start asking your question, why 0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:04.959 would they be. 0:13:06.120 --> 0:13:10.920 Uh, something to do with visibility. 0:13:11.480 --> 0:13:15.480 Well, like in reading like historic texts, you'll often find 0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:18.840 people pre flashlight and stuff, people traveling by horse. You 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:22.959 read historic text you'll often find people planning trips to 0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:28.000 have their trip coincide with a full moon for better 0:13:28.080 --> 0:13:28.880 nighttime travel. 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:30.959 So I used to think I'm the deer thing. 0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:35.480 I'm like, maybe just historically, when it's a full moon 0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:39.040 and you're out at night, because there's more light, you 0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:42.400 become aware of deer around you, so you can see 0:13:42.600 --> 0:13:44.800 you can see them, and so you think in your head, 0:13:44.840 --> 0:13:48.680 maybe you wind up thinking. Maybe people wind up thinking 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:51.720 when there's a full moon, the deer out. 0:13:53.240 --> 0:13:55.200 They're always out just because you seeing them. 0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:57.560 And so you're like, I'm out because I'm out traveling 0:13:57.559 --> 0:13:59.680 at night because it's a full moon, I can see 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:03.119 I see deer because it's a full moon, and therefore 0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:06.160 I don't know. People land on on that idea that 0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:10.080 that's a wild I'm like, I'm grasping at straws big, 0:14:10.120 --> 0:14:14.040 where did that come from? But but I like, like 0:14:14.200 --> 0:14:16.400 probably the other guys in the room you can like, 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:19.320 I'd love to hear Yanni and Spencer like, how if 0:14:19.320 --> 0:14:23.360 you can remember where it come from, where your idea 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:25.480 about this came from? And then and then and then 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:29.640 doctor Stricklan, I'd love to hear when you guys did 0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:34.200 the survey, if you could talk about how eighty three 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:41.400 eighty three percent of hunter of surveyed hunters, eighty three 0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:44.200 percent agree it affects moon, the moon affects deer movement. 0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:47.920 What they don't agree on is why and how right right, 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:51.280 They don't agree on like what it does, how it 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:53.360 does it, but they believe it does something. But do 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:54.560 you remember, Yanni? 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:58.280 Sure, I would say for me it didn't really come 0:14:58.360 --> 0:15:03.480 down generationally it wasn't because basically for me growing up 0:15:03.520 --> 0:15:07.320 before I came out West and started hunting professional, really 0:15:08.640 --> 0:15:14.640 it was maybe five to ten days of archery in Michigan, 0:15:15.600 --> 0:15:17.720 two or three days of shotgun, and then I'd get 0:15:17.720 --> 0:15:20.440 three days of rifle in Wisconsin. That was like my 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:25.000 entire big game hunting year. So we're gonna be hunting 0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:27.560 no matter what. Those days you know. 0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:32.200 You never got I'll take an opening day off this year. 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:35.840 I'm not hunting the opener because the looter phase just 0:15:35.960 --> 0:15:36.800 no way, right. 0:15:36.760 --> 0:15:40.280 Yeah, exactly. And my dad just never got into it 0:15:40.320 --> 0:15:42.320 to that level either, which is where I would have 0:15:42.320 --> 0:15:44.400 got it. So I just started learning about it once 0:15:44.440 --> 0:15:47.320 I started reading hunting magazines. 0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:50.120 And doing research on my own, and you would encounter it, 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:53.520 yeah as fat Yeah, I would say that. 0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:54.000 Uh. 0:15:56.160 --> 0:15:59.000 Where I felt like it actually played a part in 0:15:59.080 --> 0:16:01.520 my hunting was that when I was an elkhunting guy 0:16:01.560 --> 0:16:07.200 in Colorado, usually the second rifle season would coincide with 0:16:07.240 --> 0:16:11.160 the pretty big moon. It would also coincide a lot 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:15.760 of times with some warmer weather, extreme amount of hunting pressure, 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:21.120 and it was always our hardest week of hunting. Would 0:16:21.120 --> 0:16:23.960 still kill some olt, but man, it was always our 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:27.400 hardest week. So a lot a lot of factors that 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:30.400 play there, but it always would seem like that week 0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:33.240 would also have a big moon, And in my mind 0:16:33.280 --> 0:16:35.200 it was like, of course, they're just up all night 0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:37.400 feeding and by the time we get to the meadow 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:39.520 half an hour before daylight, they're long gone. 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:42.920 They're you know in bed. That's the version I was 0:16:43.000 --> 0:16:50.000 raised on. Yeah, I was raised on, but again I 0:16:50.040 --> 0:16:53.480 was raised on a full moon. They feed all night, 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:59.080 so they don't need to feed in the daylight hours. 0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:02.840 But it had zero It was just an observation. It 0:17:02.880 --> 0:17:05.880 was an observation, but it did not dictate your dictate 0:17:05.960 --> 0:17:08.719 your habits. Right. It was like you had a two 0:17:08.760 --> 0:17:11.960 week gun season, you were gonna hunt, you know whatever. 0:17:13.240 --> 0:17:15.679 We weren't like going out or not going out based 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:17.200 on it, But it was just like you'd be like, oh, 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:21.800 it's too bad that there's a full moon on the opener. 0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:22.600 They'll be out. 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:26.960 Less because they convenient excuse, or if you're successful, you 0:17:27.040 --> 0:17:29.959 did it in spite of a full moon, Like damn? 0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:32.440 Was that your awareness of what the moon was doing. 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:35.280 I think when I was a kid, there was a 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:39.920 communal anti full moon take from like the deer hunters 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:42.560 in my area, and it was just a very rudimentary 0:17:43.200 --> 0:17:47.879 understanding of like what moon, what moon phase would do 0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:50.480 to deer movement. And it was like today and I 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:52.520 feel like in the last twenty years, there will be 0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:56.520 very like hyper specific moments of the moon that are 0:17:56.520 --> 0:17:58.159 good or bad for deer movement. It's like if a 0:17:58.200 --> 0:18:01.760 new moon is rising under in the morning, Like that's 0:18:01.800 --> 0:18:04.280 a thing people will say when I was a kid 0:18:04.280 --> 0:18:06.359 that it was just like full moon bad, and it was. 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:08.440 It was not that they were up feeding all night. 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:11.000 It was that they were chasing tail all night. So 0:18:11.040 --> 0:18:14.360 they were tired. They were like exhausted come first light. 0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:17.840 And so now you're actually going to get some movements 0:18:17.880 --> 0:18:21.439 like late morning, early afternoon, and so that is like 0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:24.080 a stronger time to be in the woods, or it's 0:18:24.080 --> 0:18:27.600 now as good as the morning or the evening. That's 0:18:27.600 --> 0:18:28.160 like a take. 0:18:28.280 --> 0:18:29.200 Can you hit me that again? 0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:30.640 If if it's a full. 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:32.960 Moon, since he's been chasing does all chasing does. 0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:35.159 All night, he can see things so well, it's like 0:18:35.680 --> 0:18:38.040 it's not that no one even turned the lights off tonight, 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:40.160 you know they can. They can chase them all through 0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:42.680 the hardwoods, all out in the cornfields. So now they're 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:45.840 tired come sunrise at seven thirty am, so they're just 0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:48.720 bedded down somewhere already got it. But now they're getting 0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:52.240 a little restless come like eleven am, and so they're 0:18:52.240 --> 0:18:53.840 gonna be on their feet a little more from that 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:56.560 eleven am to one pm. Period kind of unorthodox. It's 0:18:56.600 --> 0:18:59.879 been so long, yes, yep, and then you know, now 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:04.240 it's really thrown off his schedule, and that that like movement, 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:06.439 it's probably not going to be as good for like 0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:09.760 that last you know, thirty minutes of shooting light either, 0:19:09.920 --> 0:19:12.720 because his whole schedule's just off at this point. 0:19:12.760 --> 0:19:15.320 You know, what's coming coming to my mind is like that. 0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:18.080 We always think about how the full moon would be 0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:22.360 beneficial to these animals, right, like they can chase mortel 0:19:22.560 --> 0:19:25.680 or they can feed better all night long. Right, but 0:19:25.720 --> 0:19:30.640 they're prey animals, so like really the wolves can see 0:19:30.640 --> 0:19:32.879 them better, the coyotes can see them better. 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:37.879 Let's hear from the experts. Okay, let's start out. Tell 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:39.840 us about your survey. We just we just gave you 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:46.240 three really read Yeah, we just gave you two of 0:19:46.280 --> 0:19:48.000 the things that are floating around out there. But tell 0:19:48.080 --> 0:19:49.200 tell us about the survey he did. 0:19:49.840 --> 0:19:57.280 Okay, So before I get tops, so we did a 0:19:57.280 --> 0:20:01.359 a buck movement project for a complete dealy different reason. 0:20:02.119 --> 0:20:05.240 And so seven or eight years ago, I thought, uh, well, 0:20:05.280 --> 0:20:07.000 this is going to be a great opportunity. We have 0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:10.560 all these daily movement rates, and so I'm going to 0:20:10.640 --> 0:20:14.600 tinker with this, real simple analyses. I'm gonna take these 0:20:14.680 --> 0:20:18.800 daily movement rates averaged for the population day by day 0:20:18.840 --> 0:20:24.480 by day and daytime movements nighttime movements, and it was 0:20:25.240 --> 0:20:30.040 very apparent that when you plotted that from September all 0:20:30.080 --> 0:20:34.040 the way to six weeks, two months or a month 0:20:34.080 --> 0:20:40.120 plus post rut, all the variation in movement was apparent. 0:20:40.400 --> 0:20:42.960 Is the rut, there is the right difference in daytime 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:45.920 movement nighttime movement. So so here we go. I'm gonna 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:50.120 put this on Facebook. So on top of that movement graph, 0:20:50.280 --> 0:20:55.240 I plotted the oscillation of full moon, new moon, full 0:20:55.359 --> 0:20:59.560 moon new and had those superimposed on each other. And 0:20:59.640 --> 0:21:03.040 so you can see that from from the phase of 0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:07.040 the moon from new to full in that period there's 0:21:07.080 --> 0:21:12.479 a little there's no variation in deer movement whatsoever. And 0:21:12.520 --> 0:21:15.560 so I put it out there on Facebook. Appears to me, 0:21:15.840 --> 0:21:19.200 you know, the biology and and the science is very 0:21:19.200 --> 0:21:22.719 clear that that there's nothing going on with the moon phase. 0:21:22.880 --> 0:21:24.680 What state Mississippi? 0:21:25.119 --> 0:21:27.320 Yeah, come on. 0:21:27.320 --> 0:21:29.840 This is the thing, people, this is a. 0:21:29.800 --> 0:21:32.240 Thing you will yeah, okay, they will to be like, 0:21:32.240 --> 0:21:34.240 well you didn't study the deer in Wisconsin. 0:21:35.160 --> 0:21:37.919 Well, what the typical things you can't win. You can't win. 0:21:39.880 --> 0:21:42.480 They won't even say in my state it will be 0:21:42.760 --> 0:21:46.760 but my deer, yes. 0:21:49.040 --> 0:21:51.040 And so the fact I got I got it because 0:21:51.080 --> 0:21:53.080 one thing that you got I never encountered it before. 0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:57.520 So when you're talking about that, you're graphic movement. Can 0:21:57.560 --> 0:22:01.480 you is this the yards per hour? Which great? M okay, 0:22:01.560 --> 0:22:03.879 keep explaining that to people, like when you say, like 0:22:03.880 --> 0:22:06.440 you're measuring movement, like, what what does that mean? 0:22:06.920 --> 0:22:10.320 What's the metric? Yeah, yeah, we typically do yards per 0:22:10.440 --> 0:22:13.879 day or yards per hour. That that's the measurement, and 0:22:13.920 --> 0:22:17.399 that's from the sequential GPS locations, So we're getting a 0:22:17.400 --> 0:22:20.320 location from them every fifteen minutes and so it's just 0:22:20.320 --> 0:22:22.159 the sum of that over whatever period of time and 0:22:22.200 --> 0:22:24.199 you come up with a rate of movement from that. 0:22:24.800 --> 0:22:26.600 So put that out there and a couple of people 0:22:26.680 --> 0:22:29.240 where yeah, I knew nothing was going on with this. 0:22:29.440 --> 0:22:34.840 What's but the overwhelming response was this guy's an idiot? 0:22:35.320 --> 0:22:36.600 Me this guy sure? 0:22:37.080 --> 0:22:40.400 And that has nothing to do with the moon phase. 0:22:40.800 --> 0:22:44.800 That's what Grandpa talked about. What was moon phase. It's 0:22:44.920 --> 0:22:50.200 moon position. It's the so lunar aspect of it. That 0:22:50.200 --> 0:22:53.280 that's what's driving it. So it's what time of the 0:22:53.359 --> 0:22:59.240 day is the moon overhead underfoot? Setting things like that, 0:22:59.400 --> 0:23:02.920 where is the moon on the horizon, and the supposed 0:23:03.800 --> 0:23:08.119 gravitational pull and how that might be impacting. That is 0:23:08.160 --> 0:23:11.280 what got people interested in that. So that was all 0:23:11.320 --> 0:23:13.480 the deal. And I didn't have any data at that 0:23:13.560 --> 0:23:16.680 point to refute it, so I just tucked that away 0:23:16.840 --> 0:23:17.800 like this just. 0:23:17.760 --> 0:23:21.680 Another eggheaded college guy about the mood. 0:23:21.760 --> 0:23:26.000 Yeah, a lot worse than that, but yeah. And so 0:23:26.080 --> 0:23:29.840 that data set sat there and we you know, I 0:23:29.880 --> 0:23:32.000 was holding that we got to do this, We've got 0:23:32.040 --> 0:23:35.680 to do something more sophisticated. And I was very lucky 0:23:35.840 --> 0:23:41.000 to have a coworker, a research analyst at POSTOCU named 0:23:41.080 --> 0:23:47.200 Natasha Ellison. She has a PhD in mathematics, so undergraduate 0:23:47.400 --> 0:23:52.520 masters PhD and mathematics with the application to biology and 0:23:52.720 --> 0:23:56.520 movement ecology, and she actually tinkered with quantum mechanics for 0:23:56.600 --> 0:24:00.520 her master's degree. One of her famous statements is the 0:24:00.560 --> 0:24:04.359 math really wasn't that challenging for physics and quantum mechanics 0:24:04.359 --> 0:24:07.480 with their master's degree. So she's at the tip of 0:24:07.520 --> 0:24:12.320 the spear and understanding how to disentangle all this and uh, 0:24:12.560 --> 0:24:14.919 I'm sure she chuckled and rolled her eyes when I 0:24:14.960 --> 0:24:16.719 told her, it's like, Natasha. 0:24:16.960 --> 0:24:18.159 We got a problem with Bucks. 0:24:18.240 --> 0:24:21.239 We gotta we gotta do. We've got an opportunity and 0:24:21.280 --> 0:24:23.840 this is going to be something No other academic is 0:24:23.920 --> 0:24:27.920 going to spend this amount of time and emotion going 0:24:27.920 --> 0:24:29.760 into this life. But we've got a real opportunity to do, 0:24:29.800 --> 0:24:34.119 hopefully to do something special. And so she analyzed it 0:24:34.359 --> 0:24:39.320 at a way a level of detail that had never 0:24:39.400 --> 0:24:44.600 been done before. And so, but when we were digging 0:24:44.640 --> 0:24:48.240 into that, and when we were trying to figure out 0:24:48.320 --> 0:24:49.920 what we're gonna do, how we're gonna do it, et cetera, 0:24:50.160 --> 0:24:52.960 we thought, you know, what, we need to do a survey. 0:24:53.560 --> 0:24:56.440 We need to we need to figure out what what 0:24:56.560 --> 0:25:01.359 people think and what are their expectations from If there 0:25:01.640 --> 0:25:05.520 is a moon effect, how big is it? And so 0:25:05.840 --> 0:25:08.919 we use the term in science called effect size, and 0:25:08.960 --> 0:25:12.480 so is something statistically significant or not? That's what people 0:25:12.560 --> 0:25:15.840 hear all the time. So it's really not as important 0:25:16.320 --> 0:25:20.399 as effect size. Effect size just means the difference between 0:25:20.400 --> 0:25:23.560 the treatment and the control. You get a one percent increase, 0:25:23.640 --> 0:25:27.280 fifty percent increase, one hundred percent increase. That is what's 0:25:27.840 --> 0:25:32.200 the most important people. So we did survey and got 0:25:32.240 --> 0:25:38.840 to say this, this was not a sociology sanctioned, sophisticated 0:25:38.960 --> 0:25:42.919 survey and that department. This was the MSU dear lab 0:25:43.560 --> 0:25:48.520 us doing social media survey and just saying, hey, all 0:25:48.600 --> 0:25:50.920 you people out there, what do you think about this? 0:25:51.040 --> 0:25:55.960 So what came back was yet eighty three percent eighty 0:25:56.000 --> 0:25:59.359 three percent of the people that responded thought the moon 0:25:59.640 --> 0:26:03.520 is affecting deer movement in some way. And then a 0:26:03.680 --> 0:26:07.840 subset of that, which was always more than half. You say, okay, 0:26:08.080 --> 0:26:12.200 if it is affecting deer movement by how much and 0:26:12.880 --> 0:26:16.760 the effect size they reported or the differences they reported 0:26:17.119 --> 0:26:20.600 for something like betting, the difference in bedding was at 0:26:20.640 --> 0:26:25.199 a minimum, they're on their feet thirty minutes earlier, or 0:26:25.240 --> 0:26:29.359 they're on their feet up to two hours earlier. The 0:26:29.359 --> 0:26:32.600 moon is stimulating them to get up out of their 0:26:32.600 --> 0:26:37.880 bed two hours earlier. The distance that they were moving 0:26:37.960 --> 0:26:42.000 in terms of velocity was always at least fifty yards 0:26:42.040 --> 0:26:46.720 per hour, two greater than two hundred yards per hour. 0:26:47.320 --> 0:26:52.840 So these people that are believing the moon is stimulating movement, 0:26:53.560 --> 0:26:58.520 they're all in God, Yeah, they're different animals under a 0:26:58.560 --> 0:27:00.240 specified moon condition. 0:27:00.240 --> 0:27:04.000 Ronson Were those respondents were they all from that general 0:27:04.040 --> 0:27:06.480 area in Mississippi or were they nationwide? 0:27:06.880 --> 0:27:07.480 Nationwide? 0:27:08.000 --> 0:27:08.200 Yeah? 0:27:08.280 --> 0:27:08.960 Nationwide? 0:27:09.000 --> 0:27:09.440 Certainly. 0:27:09.840 --> 0:27:14.679 Was there a specific concentration among you know, was twenty 0:27:14.760 --> 0:27:18.639 five percent although nationwide twenty five percent respondents from like 0:27:18.960 --> 0:27:19.600 Texas or. 0:27:19.600 --> 0:27:23.199 So difficult for us to tell because that was I 0:27:23.200 --> 0:27:26.360 can't remember it was Facebook or Instagram and you might 0:27:26.359 --> 0:27:29.840 be able to disentangle that. I can't. 0:27:32.480 --> 0:27:35.040 When they did the survey and you had eighty three 0:27:35.080 --> 0:27:39.359 percent say that it did something, was it did you 0:27:39.440 --> 0:27:41.920 find that there was a lot of that they had 0:27:41.960 --> 0:27:47.560 contradictory opinions, meaning some people thought they moved earlier, people 0:27:47.600 --> 0:27:49.800 thought they moved later, or did you find like was 0:27:50.520 --> 0:27:52.200 let me put it a different way instead of exploring 0:27:52.240 --> 0:27:55.560 all the exceptions, what if you had to synthesize it 0:27:55.560 --> 0:28:00.199 and make it that like the general impression was what 0:28:00.480 --> 0:28:01.520 among survey people? 0:28:02.119 --> 0:28:06.280 So during the day they betted less, meaning they're on 0:28:06.320 --> 0:28:10.320 their feet more. They are on their feet if you're 0:28:10.320 --> 0:28:14.360 thinking about an afternoon movement, about they're on their feet earlier, 0:28:14.920 --> 0:28:17.679 and when they are moving they are moving at a 0:28:17.720 --> 0:28:21.680 greater rate of speed. All of that which would result 0:28:21.720 --> 0:28:23.480 in greater observability. 0:28:23.720 --> 0:28:25.600 When there's what happening with the moon. 0:28:26.560 --> 0:28:27.000 Name it. 0:28:28.280 --> 0:28:33.040 Oh, okay, so it's an idea that there's more movement, 0:28:34.720 --> 0:28:39.400 but there's But like the general conception is, the general 0:28:39.400 --> 0:28:43.920 perception is that what depending on what the moon is doing, 0:28:44.240 --> 0:28:46.800 it drives more movement. But there's not a lot of 0:28:46.840 --> 0:28:49.520 a there's not a lot of agreement about what the 0:28:49.560 --> 0:28:53.640 moon needs to be doing to drive more movement. Yeah, 0:28:53.720 --> 0:28:56.560 it's not like a it's not like a full. 0:28:56.360 --> 0:28:58.240 Moon gives more dear movement. 0:28:58.520 --> 0:29:01.760 People might disagree about the detail, but something happens and 0:29:01.800 --> 0:29:04.640 there's more movement based on the moon. I'm not doing 0:29:04.640 --> 0:29:05.680 a very good job of articulate. 0:29:06.120 --> 0:29:11.000 There is a moon situation for every person and their 0:29:11.080 --> 0:29:14.520 pet hypothesis for when I want to go hunt. Okay, 0:29:14.600 --> 0:29:16.480 it's either I'm going to go with the moon overhead 0:29:16.600 --> 0:29:19.280 or the moon underfoot, or the moon is setting or rising, 0:29:19.640 --> 0:29:22.440 or it's a full moon, or we're in the perigy 0:29:22.640 --> 0:29:25.840 or apogee because of the gravitation, it's closer or it's 0:29:25.880 --> 0:29:28.960 further away. Every single day you can pull out a 0:29:29.040 --> 0:29:30.840 scenario of what the moon is doing. 0:29:31.000 --> 0:29:31.360 Got it? 0:29:31.720 --> 0:29:36.440 And but whatever that is, it's driving movement. No, it's 0:29:36.480 --> 0:29:37.360 not you know what I'm saying. 0:29:37.440 --> 0:29:40.960 No, No, in their mind, yeah, and they're sold and 0:29:41.000 --> 0:29:43.880 then and then in their mind yeah, in the mind 0:29:43.880 --> 0:29:45.520 of a And I'm not trying to dog on them 0:29:45.880 --> 0:29:47.440 like in the mind of because, like I said, I 0:29:47.480 --> 0:29:50.040 used to I used to think there was something to it. 0:29:50.080 --> 0:29:52.440 Is it fair to say that that people that believe 0:29:52.520 --> 0:29:56.560 it also believe that there's like the opposite effect. Meaning 0:29:57.880 --> 0:29:59.600 let's say you're a full moon or like you're a 0:29:59.600 --> 0:30:03.400 full moon guy, You're a full moon guy, Like I 0:30:03.440 --> 0:30:07.000 see more deer movement at a full moon? Do they do? 0:30:07.080 --> 0:30:08.720 They usually then believe. 0:30:08.680 --> 0:30:12.280 That there is a opposite effect, So a new moon 0:30:13.080 --> 0:30:17.920 equals yes, an extreme on the other example, like much 0:30:18.000 --> 0:30:18.560 less movement. 0:30:18.640 --> 0:30:21.160 Yeah, that's the reason the deer weren't moving today. 0:30:21.240 --> 0:30:23.600 Yeah, because of the opposite gotcha. So it's not just 0:30:23.680 --> 0:30:25.920 it creates a spike, but it's sort of this like 0:30:26.560 --> 0:30:27.920 trend that moves in and out. 0:30:28.120 --> 0:30:30.080 Yeah, and it has a top and bottom. Ya, a 0:30:30.080 --> 0:30:33.760 spike and then a suppression. Yeah, God during daylight hours. 0:30:33.760 --> 0:30:35.880 And that's what we focused on. What hunters are going 0:30:35.960 --> 0:30:36.960 to see? 0:30:37.640 --> 0:30:40.800 What did your study find that did impact deer movement 0:30:41.360 --> 0:30:42.440 just the rut. 0:30:43.320 --> 0:30:51.160 Yeah, so crepuscular periods. So nothing supersedes this, Nothing comes 0:30:51.240 --> 0:30:57.120 even close to superseding sun up and sundown and the rut. 0:30:58.360 --> 0:31:02.440 There is a subtle, subtle effect of temperature, and that 0:31:02.600 --> 0:31:07.040 is what Natasha, It's really complicated in this multivariate all 0:31:07.080 --> 0:31:10.840 these variables are interacting, but there is a subtle effect 0:31:11.040 --> 0:31:14.480 of temperature. Meaning in our neck of the woods it 0:31:14.520 --> 0:31:16.600 would be different up Nora, uh huh, and our neck 0:31:16.640 --> 0:31:19.560 of the woods, when you start getting sub forty degrees, 0:31:20.240 --> 0:31:23.520 we will see a little bit more higher of a 0:31:23.560 --> 0:31:25.880 movement rate during daylight hours. 0:31:25.920 --> 0:31:28.960 I feel like you're saying that is like the hottest 0:31:28.960 --> 0:31:33.040 take a dear biologist has ever had on deer temperature movement. 0:31:33.280 --> 0:31:35.800 And yeah, yeah, deer movement based on tempera. 0:31:35.920 --> 0:31:38.400 Well, this is the guy right here that said for 0:31:38.720 --> 0:31:41.320 more than a decade, it had nothing to do. We 0:31:41.360 --> 0:31:46.480 do not see any signature whatsoever of temperature. But it 0:31:46.600 --> 0:31:49.400 took more data, and it took the right type of 0:31:49.440 --> 0:31:55.000 person analytically to tease apart very very subtle differences, a 0:31:55.040 --> 0:31:56.280 skill set that I didn't have. 0:31:56.600 --> 0:32:02.040 Yeah, can you lay out you do the survey, and 0:32:02.080 --> 0:32:06.800 then you got to start pulling data, like the surveys 0:32:06.840 --> 0:32:07.280 just kind of a. 0:32:07.240 --> 0:32:08.640 Side project to see where you're at. 0:32:08.760 --> 0:32:12.479 Yeah, so to go get a definitive picture of this. 0:32:13.880 --> 0:32:16.240 What are you doing? Like how many deer are you monitoring? 0:32:16.320 --> 0:32:18.560 How do you monitor the deer? Like what is the 0:32:18.640 --> 0:32:20.240 sort of scale of the project? 0:32:20.560 --> 0:32:24.120 Yeah, so, yeah, this is one thing we wanted to 0:32:24.120 --> 0:32:27.200 do different and probably one of the issues in the past, 0:32:27.280 --> 0:32:30.320 including the stuff I did in the past, is treating 0:32:30.360 --> 0:32:33.920 the population as the population and not looking at individuals. 0:32:34.120 --> 0:32:39.080 There's a lot of individual variation and buck movements. Some 0:32:39.160 --> 0:32:42.680 of them are homebodies, some of them have very disjointed 0:32:43.160 --> 0:32:46.840 home ranges that we call a mobile buck personality home range. 0:32:46.960 --> 0:32:48.800 Some of them move a whole bunch, some of them 0:32:48.840 --> 0:32:51.000 don't move a lot. So we don't want to just 0:32:51.400 --> 0:32:54.480 put all of that together and come up with an average. 0:32:55.040 --> 0:32:58.240 We want to be able to look at every single 0:32:58.280 --> 0:33:02.840 buck and what is his movement profile, and then look 0:33:02.880 --> 0:33:07.360 at when you evaluate all these different moon conditions, is 0:33:07.400 --> 0:33:12.280 the buck's behavior movement behavior deviating from the norm that buck. 0:33:12.720 --> 0:33:15.200 Yeah, you're looking at I see like what is he? 0:33:15.400 --> 0:33:18.400 What is it buck a or buck. 0:33:18.200 --> 0:33:19.760 One twenty one? 0:33:19.920 --> 0:33:22.840 What is buck one? Twenty one's normal groove. That's right, 0:33:23.520 --> 0:33:26.520 and then how does Buck one twenty one's groove switch 0:33:26.520 --> 0:33:26.960 at the moon? 0:33:27.080 --> 0:33:27.560 That's right? 0:33:27.920 --> 0:33:31.400 And then Buck one twenty eight, same thing. And one 0:33:31.400 --> 0:33:33.080 of those bucks might be like a dude who likes 0:33:33.080 --> 0:33:34.560 to cruise, and one of those bucks might be a 0:33:34.640 --> 0:33:35.600 dude who likes to stay home. 0:33:35.680 --> 0:33:37.920 Yeah, So the guy that cruises, does he cruise more? 0:33:38.120 --> 0:33:38.320 You know? 0:33:38.360 --> 0:33:39.840 There is a stay of home guy cruse more? 0:33:39.920 --> 0:33:40.400 Yeah? Yeah. 0:33:41.280 --> 0:33:46.640 And so Natasha went through and so for every single buck, 0:33:46.800 --> 0:33:50.080 she created a fourteen day window. So this is a 0:33:50.160 --> 0:33:54.440 moving window. And so for every fourteen days, she looked 0:33:54.440 --> 0:33:59.280 at the seven days prior seven days and it uh 0:34:00.080 --> 0:34:04.960 behind and calculated for every single hour of the day. 0:34:05.960 --> 0:34:09.960 So for this buck at ten am, she has a 0:34:10.000 --> 0:34:13.760 movement profile of what the average response for that buck 0:34:14.320 --> 0:34:19.400 will be at ten am, calibrated for the prior seven 0:34:19.480 --> 0:34:22.840 days and the future seven days. And so when we 0:34:22.920 --> 0:34:26.920 have some moon alignment or phase or whatever, we then 0:34:27.040 --> 0:34:32.040 look at does that buck's ten am movement pattern deviate 0:34:32.640 --> 0:34:35.879 because of the moon. And so then you do the 0:34:35.920 --> 0:34:40.640 sum of those deviations for every single buck that is 0:34:40.680 --> 0:34:44.239 in the population to come up with a mean response 0:34:45.120 --> 0:34:50.360 and that's how we are able to work through A 0:34:50.520 --> 0:34:54.640 Saturday occurred, big hunting day, a Saturday, the rut occurred. 0:34:54.960 --> 0:34:57.160 It was a really warm period, we had a really 0:34:57.200 --> 0:35:00.720 a cold front. By doing that and having a moving 0:35:00.840 --> 0:35:04.000 average for every single buck, you account for all the 0:35:04.120 --> 0:35:06.960 extraneous noise. Sure that can be going on. 0:35:07.320 --> 0:35:11.279 Huh okay, off the moon because now just you brought 0:35:11.280 --> 0:35:14.759 it up a Saturday, a lot of guys hunting. You 0:35:14.840 --> 0:35:21.400 mentioned it crepuscular period. So sunrise, sunset impacts, the rot impacts, 0:35:21.719 --> 0:35:23.279 temperature impacts. 0:35:24.280 --> 0:35:26.320 Pressure's got to make them not move, right, sure? 0:35:26.400 --> 0:35:30.280 Okay, yeah, so that's true. 0:35:31.040 --> 0:35:35.240 I think it's less about it's not that they're not moving, 0:35:35.600 --> 0:35:40.160 it is where they choose to move based on hunting pressure. 0:35:40.880 --> 0:35:45.480 And so in another study that we did conducted in Oklahoma, 0:35:46.160 --> 0:35:48.360 we and that was set up differently. So that was 0:35:48.400 --> 0:35:53.240 a treatment area where there was hunting pressure and treatment 0:35:53.280 --> 0:35:57.480 area too heavy hunting pressure, and a control area. And 0:35:57.520 --> 0:36:00.560 in those places the deer were collared, the hunters were 0:36:00.560 --> 0:36:05.440 collared carrying a GPSHW and so could we could monitor 0:36:05.480 --> 0:36:07.400 where they were going on the landscape and so forth. 0:36:07.400 --> 0:36:11.200 Then we're watching the bucks be able to move around them, 0:36:11.800 --> 0:36:15.440 and it literally took three to four days, and three 0:36:15.480 --> 0:36:18.879 to four days of there are hunters on the landscape, 0:36:18.920 --> 0:36:24.440 it changed. Something is different. Their the bucks movement behavior changed, 0:36:25.080 --> 0:36:28.839 not as much as total distance moved during the day, 0:36:29.440 --> 0:36:34.719 but where they went on the landscape. And the academic 0:36:35.160 --> 0:36:39.919 term is called their tortuosity, meaning the complexity of their 0:36:40.040 --> 0:36:45.120 movement path changed. That we think was because they had 0:36:45.160 --> 0:36:48.840 to avoid all these different places on the landscape that 0:36:48.920 --> 0:36:51.440 they had three to four days of info was going 0:36:51.520 --> 0:36:53.200 to be associated with hunting in danger. 0:36:55.560 --> 0:36:59.879 Oh but his yards per hour, his his yards per 0:37:00.520 --> 0:37:02.840 stay up, stay consistent. 0:37:02.920 --> 0:37:07.800 In that experiment. Yeah. Yeah, their movement behavior really didn't 0:37:07.920 --> 0:37:12.480 change other than the tortuosity and where they went. So quote, 0:37:12.640 --> 0:37:16.200 they did not go nocturnal. They were still on their 0:37:16.239 --> 0:37:19.400 feet because they got eat They're on their feet, they're forging. 0:37:19.719 --> 0:37:23.600 They're just going to areas where they determine there's not 0:37:23.680 --> 0:37:27.440 going to be hunting pressure, no evidence, no memory of 0:37:27.640 --> 0:37:28.440 human activity. 0:37:28.560 --> 0:37:31.799 Yeah. Old Lady Thompson's house, you know, doesn't let anybody hunt. 0:37:32.840 --> 0:37:35.360 Oh yeah, I was just telling my buddy Seth. We 0:37:35.440 --> 0:37:37.719 came out of the woods after we killed the bull. 0:37:37.760 --> 0:37:41.440 I was telling you about earlier. The next night dead, 0:37:42.080 --> 0:37:43.880 not that it was on fire the night before. I've 0:37:43.920 --> 0:37:46.720 only heard like four or five bugles before that bull died. 0:37:47.040 --> 0:37:50.080 But the next evening we hear like a bugle. It's 0:37:50.120 --> 0:37:53.920 just just dead, still quiet. And I'm remarking to my 0:37:53.960 --> 0:37:56.280 buddy's seth. I'm like, yeah, it was kind of hot, 0:37:56.440 --> 0:38:00.080 no wind. You know, it's just like, you know, they 0:38:00.120 --> 0:38:02.200 don't want to run when they got that big winter codeon. 0:38:02.480 --> 0:38:06.279 He goes, well, where I was at yesterday, We're the 0:38:06.480 --> 0:38:09.480 lasting a big herd out in a private hayfield and 0:38:09.520 --> 0:38:13.200 at four thirty they are ripping. Yeah, you know. 0:38:13.280 --> 0:38:16.440 So it's like, yeah, they found a good place to 0:38:16.480 --> 0:38:20.520 go exactly. Yeah, they're going to do their thing. Huh. 0:38:20.560 --> 0:38:24.520 So the going nocturnal from pressure, they just go do 0:38:24.560 --> 0:38:24.960 what they. 0:38:24.800 --> 0:38:25.799 Want to do somewhere else. 0:38:25.920 --> 0:38:28.880 Yeah, yeah, they just changed their behavior on where they 0:38:28.920 --> 0:38:32.839 spend time. Now, I will say this, there have been 0:38:32.960 --> 0:38:36.359 cases at the deer conference we go to, you know 0:38:36.480 --> 0:38:40.800 every year, there have act there have been some cases 0:38:40.960 --> 0:38:46.640 with GPS or VHF collared bucks where in heavily heavily 0:38:46.760 --> 0:38:53.360 hunted places, a buckbedded all day long. But I literally, Steve, 0:38:53.520 --> 0:38:57.279 I remember that one time. In the thirty years i've 0:38:57.320 --> 0:38:59.480 been going and learning about deer and thinking, I've heard 0:38:59.520 --> 0:39:03.440 of one instance where objectively a buck had a mark, 0:39:03.760 --> 0:39:06.560 a radio caller on it or a GPS collar, and 0:39:06.719 --> 0:39:10.840 it did not move during daylight hours because hunting pressure 0:39:10.920 --> 0:39:14.680 was all around God and all these other instances. They're 0:39:14.800 --> 0:39:17.440 up on their feet and moving. Now they may not be. 0:39:17.560 --> 0:39:21.200 You have to look at what's called the step length, 0:39:21.719 --> 0:39:25.480 the movement path. So step length is a surrogate for velocity. 0:39:25.920 --> 0:39:28.160 So if you're getting a ping from that collar every 0:39:28.200 --> 0:39:32.080 fifteen minutes, if he's got a really high rate of speed, 0:39:32.120 --> 0:39:35.759 you're going to cover more distance in fifteen minutes. And 0:39:35.800 --> 0:39:39.279 so what you will see is that their yards per 0:39:39.320 --> 0:39:43.320 hour can slow down, but they're still on their feet 0:39:43.400 --> 0:39:44.720 and they're foraging and moving. 0:39:46.400 --> 0:39:49.600 The other day, we were watching a bull moose. 0:39:50.840 --> 0:39:55.080 Doing his like rut wander, and he was going through 0:39:55.080 --> 0:39:59.680 this big alpine area and we watched them, I mean, 0:40:00.320 --> 0:40:06.040 we watched him go a couple miles fast, and we're 0:40:06.080 --> 0:40:08.399 waiting for him to stop. He was so far away 0:40:08.400 --> 0:40:10.160 where like, well, when he stops, we'll try to call 0:40:10.200 --> 0:40:13.520 and see if he registers the noise at all. We 0:40:13.560 --> 0:40:18.080 watched him go a couple of miles and never stopped once, 0:40:18.600 --> 0:40:24.200 just moving, just cruising, and you're like, where what you know, 0:40:24.320 --> 0:40:27.200 what is his concept of where he's going? But just 0:40:28.640 --> 0:40:33.680 moving and yeah, he's not afraid of anything. Yeah, I'm 0:40:33.680 --> 0:40:34.600 not afraid of anything. 0:40:34.960 --> 0:40:39.680 Yeah. Whitetail hunters have this time period between October ten 0:40:39.800 --> 0:40:43.120 October twenty they refer to as the October Law. And 0:40:43.200 --> 0:40:45.080 if you were to if you lived in a state 0:40:45.120 --> 0:40:48.240 where the deer season is September one to December thirty, 0:40:48.280 --> 0:40:51.040 first they would tell you that is the hardest ten 0:40:51.120 --> 0:40:54.399 day stretch to kill a buck because they're nocturnal. What 0:40:54.440 --> 0:40:57.680 are your movement studies say about that? 0:40:57.760 --> 0:41:01.000 There is no lull that that does does not exist. 0:41:01.200 --> 0:41:03.879 Not in any form. Like they're not only are they 0:41:03.920 --> 0:41:07.040 not nocturnal during that period, but they're also like they're 0:41:07.080 --> 0:41:09.799 moving more in that period than they were October one 0:41:09.840 --> 0:41:10.640 to October Tenen. 0:41:11.000 --> 0:41:14.040 I can't say they're moving more, but they're moving. And 0:41:14.280 --> 0:41:16.560 this is just sit in the Mississippi State data here. 0:41:16.680 --> 0:41:20.239 This is over and over again that there is no law. 0:41:20.600 --> 0:41:24.239 But what can be going on at that time is 0:41:25.040 --> 0:41:28.920 you have got a shuffling, so to speak. It's a 0:41:29.000 --> 0:41:32.400 little bit late in October. So think about bachelor groups 0:41:32.800 --> 0:41:37.120 during the summer box low testosterone velvet, and then we 0:41:37.160 --> 0:41:41.560 get into September October, testosterone is surging through their body again. 0:41:41.640 --> 0:41:44.480 They start getting into hard antler and then they start 0:41:44.520 --> 0:41:49.040 shifting and moving around and setting up their fall winter 0:41:49.480 --> 0:41:52.759 rut home ranges. So I think what's going on a 0:41:52.800 --> 0:41:55.840 lot there is you've had a couple months or a 0:41:55.840 --> 0:42:00.560 couple weeks of seeing the deer that you're normally seeing, 0:42:01.200 --> 0:42:03.560 and then you get into that period in October where 0:42:03.560 --> 0:42:07.160 a shuffle is coming and so they're moving in different 0:42:07.200 --> 0:42:09.720 areas or they have left your area where your trail 0:42:09.760 --> 0:42:12.600 camera is at, but they're still moving. 0:42:13.160 --> 0:42:13.359 Yeah. 0:42:13.360 --> 0:42:16.640 I think like if I was speaking to hunters in 0:42:16.680 --> 0:42:19.000 eastern South Dakota where I grew up, I bet they 0:42:19.000 --> 0:42:22.360 are seeing less movement in that period. But it's because 0:42:22.360 --> 0:42:24.880 now there's combines in the fields. It's because there are 0:42:24.920 --> 0:42:27.960 acorns on the ground. It's because pheasant season just opened 0:42:28.040 --> 0:42:30.280 and that's kicked deer out of some beds. In CRP 0:42:30.760 --> 0:42:34.480 like that, there is a lull happening that's very specific 0:42:34.520 --> 0:42:37.360 to them, but it's not because the buck is now nocturnal. 0:42:37.560 --> 0:42:39.719 It's because he's just moving in a different way in 0:42:39.719 --> 0:42:40.360 a different place. 0:42:40.520 --> 0:42:42.319 You're in a strategic. 0:42:41.840 --> 0:42:45.920 Low, yes, where like all summer, these five bucks come 0:42:45.920 --> 0:42:48.640 into that beanfield and all of a sudden they're not 0:42:48.719 --> 0:42:49.200 there anymore. 0:42:49.320 --> 0:42:51.160 Yeah, And I think it can be true that that's 0:42:51.239 --> 0:42:53.560 like maybe the hardest ten day window to kill a 0:42:53.560 --> 0:42:56.640 mature buck. But it's not because he's unkillable. 0:42:57.880 --> 0:43:01.239 Yeah, he's just in a different place. Yeah, you got 0:43:01.239 --> 0:43:05.160 to go look for him. Now Here's us really interesting 0:43:05.400 --> 0:43:10.279 to me is we we looked at So we had 0:43:10.320 --> 0:43:12.600 to have deer where we had to have two years 0:43:12.960 --> 0:43:15.400 of them being collared. So we had a lot of 0:43:15.440 --> 0:43:17.600 deer come and go, you know, why is. 0:43:17.560 --> 0:43:21.120 That that you had Why two years? What's the significance. 0:43:21.040 --> 0:43:26.440 Because the question, like Spencer was alluding to, is do 0:43:26.480 --> 0:43:31.120 they have fidelity for a site the following year? So 0:43:31.400 --> 0:43:34.640 if you see it in a particular place this October, 0:43:35.120 --> 0:43:37.319 what are the odds you're going to see it next year? 0:43:37.800 --> 0:43:40.520 So we had to limit our data just to bucks 0:43:40.800 --> 0:43:42.799 that so it's a subset of that that we had 0:43:42.920 --> 0:43:47.840 two years of data and it was really amazing. Is 0:43:47.880 --> 0:43:51.879 that on the average when you got to after that 0:43:52.200 --> 0:43:55.239 October kind of break up and shuffling, and when they 0:43:55.280 --> 0:44:00.279 went back and started settling into that area, the average 0:44:00.360 --> 0:44:05.200 distance on a daily scale. And so what we did is, 0:44:05.640 --> 0:44:09.960 where is this buck at five pm October ninth, twenty 0:44:10.000 --> 0:44:13.800 twenty four. Where is it at October ninth, five pm, 0:44:13.880 --> 0:44:16.760 twenty twenty five? About a thousand yards apart? 0:44:17.719 --> 0:44:18.239 Is that right? 0:44:19.800 --> 0:44:21.200 About a thousand yards apart? 0:44:21.600 --> 0:44:24.279 See, if you're hunting ten ac or parcels, that's a lot. 0:44:26.000 --> 0:44:28.879 And that could absolutely be off property and you may 0:44:28.920 --> 0:44:32.760 never see it again. But he's in the neighborhood. If 0:44:32.800 --> 0:44:34.400 he's alive, he's in the neighborhood. 0:44:34.520 --> 0:44:35.160 Yeah. God. 0:44:36.800 --> 0:44:39.080 I used to work with a lot of fish biologists, 0:44:39.120 --> 0:44:41.720 and I found that there were equal number of fish 0:44:41.719 --> 0:44:45.759 biologists who were hardcore anglers as there were guys who 0:44:45.840 --> 0:44:48.600 never fished a day a year, like they just literally 0:44:48.719 --> 0:44:51.440 never wed a line. And I found that they would 0:44:51.800 --> 0:44:54.480 ask very different questions when it came to what they 0:44:54.520 --> 0:44:57.840 were studying. What do you notice for what percentage of 0:44:57.880 --> 0:45:01.200 dear biologists are hardcore hunters? These guys who just like 0:45:01.400 --> 0:45:02.160 never fill a tag? 0:45:04.600 --> 0:45:06.640 Good question, are. 0:45:06.880 --> 0:45:07.600 You a big hunter? 0:45:08.120 --> 0:45:09.359 I am? I am? 0:45:09.560 --> 0:45:10.920 Which do you think that's normal. 0:45:12.320 --> 0:45:16.440 Yeah, yeah, I do. I guess hardcore is a scale, 0:45:16.880 --> 0:45:22.000 you know, I would say probably seventy five percent. There 0:45:22.000 --> 0:45:25.799 are absolutely some that love deer and just ungulates, you know, 0:45:26.000 --> 0:45:28.280 and study that type of stuff, that aren't big hunters. 0:45:28.640 --> 0:45:30.319 But I would say on the white tail side, at 0:45:30.360 --> 0:45:32.040 least the ones I'm thinking about off the top of 0:45:32.080 --> 0:45:33.279 my head, they all hunt. 0:45:33.320 --> 0:45:35.399 Until like that twenty five percent. You don't think those 0:45:35.440 --> 0:45:36.520 folks hunt at all? 0:45:38.480 --> 0:45:42.200 Probably not, okay. I think they're enamored with the deer 0:45:42.480 --> 0:45:47.000 and ecology of it. The system really excites them. Yeah, 0:45:47.040 --> 0:45:49.040 But then picking up our bow or rifle just in 0:45:49.200 --> 0:45:49.760 their things. 0:45:49.600 --> 0:45:52.520 And do you notice anything different with like those biologies? Yeah, 0:45:52.560 --> 0:45:54.080 the questions okay. 0:45:53.840 --> 0:45:57.040 The questions I asked typically that type of part and 0:45:57.080 --> 0:45:58.640 this isn't good or bad, it's just different. 0:45:59.120 --> 0:46:01.799 But I think it needs both, like the field needs 0:46:01.800 --> 0:46:02.239 both of those. 0:46:02.320 --> 0:46:06.960 Yeah, yeah, right. I would say they're more the theory 0:46:07.800 --> 0:46:11.720 type of stuff, which is really important ecological grounding in theory. 0:46:12.280 --> 0:46:15.279 And then people like me is more about the application, 0:46:16.200 --> 0:46:19.280 and you know, my roles extension. So then what's the application? 0:46:19.400 --> 0:46:21.279 How do I tell people about it? What does it 0:46:21.320 --> 0:46:24.040 mean to you for hunting? Your land or managing your land. 0:46:24.600 --> 0:46:27.520 Yeah, I want to hit you with a bunch of 0:46:29.719 --> 0:46:31.680 once we cover off on them. We sold this pretty 0:46:31.680 --> 0:46:34.560 heavy on the moon thing. But let's let's put the 0:46:34.600 --> 0:46:36.399 moon thing to bed. So I want to get into 0:46:36.440 --> 0:46:38.319 other things that drive I want to get into other 0:46:38.360 --> 0:46:41.360 things that drive changes of movement and other things about 0:46:42.200 --> 0:46:44.520 Like you mentioned that different deer have different personalities. I'd 0:46:44.520 --> 0:46:46.640 love to hear more about that. Let's close out on 0:46:46.680 --> 0:46:52.520 this moon thing for a little bit out put some 0:46:52.640 --> 0:46:58.279 numbers to us, or put some way of expressing the 0:46:59.600 --> 0:47:03.040 how much which you can rule out and how much 0:47:03.080 --> 0:47:06.600 could still be up for grabs. Meaning Mark thing is like, hey, listen, 0:47:07.640 --> 0:47:10.319 if a buck comes out. If I'm watching a buck 0:47:10.680 --> 0:47:12.400 and I can't catch him out in the daylight and 0:47:12.440 --> 0:47:15.640 he comes out five minutes early because of the moonface, 0:47:15.760 --> 0:47:16.719 that's a big deal to me. 0:47:17.440 --> 0:47:19.000 Are they catching that in the research? 0:47:19.040 --> 0:47:21.600 You know? That was his question, right, like, when they're 0:47:21.640 --> 0:47:25.680 looking at these general things, like they generally don't change 0:47:25.680 --> 0:47:27.560 their behavior. But he says, but let's say it's just 0:47:27.600 --> 0:47:33.080 five minutes, right, That to me matters, Like when you 0:47:33.120 --> 0:47:35.480 look at it, how like what degree of certainty are 0:47:35.480 --> 0:47:40.080 you comfortable putting on that there is there isn't any 0:47:40.080 --> 0:47:41.920 impact because you're always going to have guys that are like, 0:47:41.920 --> 0:47:44.400 he doesn't know what he's talking about, yeah, yeah, or 0:47:44.440 --> 0:47:47.719 he's not detecting what I'm seeing because I'm seeing things 0:47:47.719 --> 0:47:50.000 at a micro scale and he's looking to macro. 0:47:50.719 --> 0:47:55.279 And I don't ever think we can produce anything that's 0:47:55.320 --> 0:47:59.160 going to affect that person. So when you get in 0:47:59.680 --> 0:48:01.880 got feedback from people, and this was part when we 0:48:01.920 --> 0:48:05.680 when we reached out initially doing this survey. We had 0:48:06.080 --> 0:48:08.880 and I would call them the saddle bow hunter. I 0:48:08.920 --> 0:48:11.759 mean they are just locked in. They they're trying to 0:48:11.840 --> 0:48:15.840 hunt close to cover. And so if if that buck 0:48:15.960 --> 0:48:20.080 is walking out thirty seconds earlier and five more steps, 0:48:20.120 --> 0:48:20.920 I got a shot. 0:48:21.040 --> 0:48:21.320 Yep. 0:48:22.960 --> 0:48:26.319 So what we looked at is, of course, like we 0:48:26.400 --> 0:48:31.440 explained earlier deviation from normal. We did eighty five different analyzes, 0:48:32.120 --> 0:48:35.840 so we we made eighty five different comparisons of all 0:48:35.920 --> 0:48:39.960 the different moon stuff you can put together. And the 0:48:39.960 --> 0:48:47.680 the average response for bedding time deviations were less than 0:48:47.719 --> 0:48:50.840 a minute. A couple of them were two or three minutes. 0:48:52.120 --> 0:48:55.399 But and not to get too deep in the stats here, 0:48:56.040 --> 0:48:59.839 when you run that many analyzes you're gonna you're gonna 0:48:59.880 --> 0:49:02.840 hear your results are gonna follow a bell shaped curve. 0:49:04.200 --> 0:49:07.080 You're gonna get some results that were positive. You're gonna 0:49:07.080 --> 0:49:11.200 get some results that were negative. And so when you 0:49:11.280 --> 0:49:14.640 look at the body of everything that we did, we 0:49:14.680 --> 0:49:17.319 had a couple instances where the deer were on their 0:49:17.320 --> 0:49:22.000 feet a few seconds earlier, maybe a minute earlier. We 0:49:22.080 --> 0:49:24.680 had some results where they stayed in their bed a 0:49:24.719 --> 0:49:28.280 few seconds or a minute longer. We had some results 0:49:28.360 --> 0:49:31.480 where the yard per hour and so think about that. 0:49:31.560 --> 0:49:35.680 Put that in your terms. My pace, one of my steps. 0:49:35.320 --> 0:49:35.840 Is a yard. 0:49:37.200 --> 0:49:39.560 And so when you talk about, yeah, we found a 0:49:39.560 --> 0:49:42.040 big result on such and such a moon condition, they 0:49:42.040 --> 0:49:46.360 were moving three yards per hour more. That's three steps 0:49:47.160 --> 0:49:52.359 and one hour three steps. Now, if that motivates you, 0:49:52.480 --> 0:49:55.040 and that does get back when I'm given this as 0:49:55.040 --> 0:49:57.360 a seminar and people are ready to throw beer cans 0:49:57.360 --> 0:50:00.399 and rotten tomatoes and all that stuff at me. If 0:50:00.400 --> 0:50:02.440 it makes you feel good, man, if this is your 0:50:02.480 --> 0:50:08.240 placebo effect, yeah, roll with it. If it instills more 0:50:08.360 --> 0:50:11.440 confidence in you, that's such and such moon condition, and 0:50:11.480 --> 0:50:14.719 I'm gonna be more alert and I'm gonna get to 0:50:14.760 --> 0:50:17.200 the stand thirty minutes earlier, because this is a red 0:50:17.239 --> 0:50:20.600 moon day. You know, then, by God, keep doing it 0:50:21.360 --> 0:50:23.880 if it makes you happy, but the evidence does not 0:50:23.960 --> 0:50:24.480 support it. 0:50:24.880 --> 0:50:28.240 In college, I would get the field in Stream magazine 0:50:28.280 --> 0:50:30.279 and they would always predict the rut, the best days 0:50:30.280 --> 0:50:32.200 of the rut. And I think it was maybe a 0:50:32.280 --> 0:50:36.080 sophomore and I had saw that, like, the best day 0:50:36.120 --> 0:50:37.920 of the rut this year was on a Saturday. I 0:50:38.000 --> 0:50:41.520 was available, So I did what you're talking about. I 0:50:41.600 --> 0:50:43.640 sat in my best stand that day that I had 0:50:43.680 --> 0:50:45.800 saved for a week leading up to it because I 0:50:46.120 --> 0:50:47.799 knew it was the best day of the rut. I 0:50:47.840 --> 0:50:50.399 got there earlier, I packed lunch to be there all day. 0:50:50.480 --> 0:50:52.479 I was more alert because I was like, it's going 0:50:52.560 --> 0:50:54.840 to happen. And then a buck showed up and the 0:50:55.000 --> 0:50:57.360 killed him, and so I was just more confidence and 0:50:57.400 --> 0:51:00.320 I was a better hunter. That day was going to 0:51:01.400 --> 0:51:05.120 optimistic and so that that I think that that can 0:51:05.160 --> 0:51:05.840 work for people. 0:51:05.840 --> 0:51:08.799 That can be a thing, and keep doing it. If 0:51:08.840 --> 0:51:12.080 it keeps working for you, keep doing it, keep taking 0:51:12.120 --> 0:51:16.120 the placebo. Placebo effect is really really powerful. There's some 0:51:16.160 --> 0:51:19.160 cool science behind that as well. Sure, but yeah, you 0:51:19.160 --> 0:51:21.440 took the words out of my mouth. But I wonder 0:51:21.560 --> 0:51:25.080 if you had gone five additional times under those exact 0:51:25.080 --> 0:51:27.520 same conditions and you didn't have a good day. 0:51:27.520 --> 0:51:30.360 Totally, if you remember the good ones, then I was like, 0:51:30.440 --> 0:51:32.399 it was because this was the best day of the rut, 0:51:32.400 --> 0:51:35.760 as Field and Stream had deemed it. You know, looking 0:51:35.800 --> 0:51:38.160 back now and since I've like formed my own white 0:51:38.160 --> 0:51:41.800 tail opinions, I recognized I was just very confident that day. 0:51:41.760 --> 0:51:43.520 And Field and that was throughout the range of the 0:51:43.560 --> 0:51:44.279 white tailed deer. 0:51:44.440 --> 0:51:45.920 Yeah, but this was going to be the day. 0:51:46.080 --> 0:51:52.359 Yeah, yep, yeah, so that should totally. I got one 0:51:52.360 --> 0:51:55.080 more moon question before we move on. Charles Allsheimer he 0:51:55.200 --> 0:51:58.840 had developed like the rutting moon theory in the nineties 0:51:58.840 --> 0:52:00.480 that caught on with a lot of guys, and the 0:52:00.560 --> 0:52:04.040 running moon theory is that the second full moon after 0:52:04.080 --> 0:52:07.560 the autumn equinox is what triggers the white tail rut. 0:52:07.680 --> 0:52:10.759 That's like, this is the beginning of it. And in 0:52:10.800 --> 0:52:13.200 his theory he had determined there are three types of 0:52:13.239 --> 0:52:15.160 white tail ruts. You could have it a given year 0:52:15.239 --> 0:52:16.880 based on when that second. 0:52:16.640 --> 0:52:18.640 Moon fo Okay, bag, I want to make sure I'm 0:52:18.680 --> 0:52:21.880 tracking autumn equin second full. 0:52:21.719 --> 0:52:23.879 Moon, right, not the first one, the second one. 0:52:24.000 --> 0:52:25.879 When I got that part, but then you said another 0:52:25.960 --> 0:52:26.799 thing that threw me off. 0:52:26.840 --> 0:52:29.839 So that that second full moon could land in late October, 0:52:29.960 --> 0:52:32.959 it could land in mid November, okay, based on when 0:52:33.000 --> 0:52:36.200 that would fall. You could have one of three ruts. 0:52:36.440 --> 0:52:39.440 You could have a synchronized rut, which is if it's 0:52:39.480 --> 0:52:43.359 between like October thirty one and November five. You could 0:52:43.360 --> 0:52:47.200 have a classic rut, which is like November six to thirteen, 0:52:47.719 --> 0:52:50.560 or you could have a trickle rut, which is November 0:52:50.600 --> 0:52:51.200 thirteen on. 0:52:51.520 --> 0:52:51.800 Huh. 0:52:51.960 --> 0:52:55.680 And it's it's basically saying that like some years, if 0:52:55.719 --> 0:52:58.919 you have a trickle rut, for example, maybe that Bell 0:52:59.000 --> 0:53:01.560 curve you're talking about is flat at the top and 0:53:01.600 --> 0:53:05.760 it's just wider, Whereas if you have a synchronized rut 0:53:06.120 --> 0:53:09.480 where you get that full moon on November third, now 0:53:09.480 --> 0:53:11.879 the Bell curve has a really tall peak in it, 0:53:12.000 --> 0:53:15.000 and it's skinnier. Is that anything you've ever seen that 0:53:15.160 --> 0:53:17.960 some years the rut was longer or shorter. 0:53:18.680 --> 0:53:24.640 No, no, no, never even outside of the moon, like 0:53:24.800 --> 0:53:25.600 never mind the moon. 0:53:26.200 --> 0:53:29.880 Yeah, not from from year to year in a place. 0:53:30.040 --> 0:53:33.800 And so when you talk about a you know, a 0:53:33.840 --> 0:53:37.360 protracted rut or a trickle rut. All that stuff is 0:53:37.680 --> 0:53:41.080 related to sex ratio of the population, so we can 0:53:41.200 --> 0:53:45.200 manipulate that with management. Here it has nothing to do 0:53:45.520 --> 0:53:50.040 with the moon. It is about the availability of dozen 0:53:50.280 --> 0:53:54.200 estres and enough box to serve them when they are 0:53:54.200 --> 0:53:58.160 in standing heat. If your sex ratio becomes so biased 0:53:58.200 --> 0:54:01.080 that the dozen estres there is not a buck to 0:54:01.640 --> 0:54:05.520 copulate twenty eight later days later, she's going to cycle 0:54:05.600 --> 0:54:08.360 and come into heat again, and there is your trickle 0:54:08.480 --> 0:54:13.000 or your extended rut. Or if you have dough fawns, 0:54:13.360 --> 0:54:16.560 dough fawnts will typically the proportion of them that do 0:54:16.640 --> 0:54:19.080 come into estres are going to come in a little 0:54:19.080 --> 0:54:19.640 bit later. 0:54:20.200 --> 0:54:25.360 So adult adult that has a faun with her and 0:54:25.360 --> 0:54:27.080 she's trying to get rid of it in the fall, 0:54:27.680 --> 0:54:30.640 she'll come into estris later than adult that did that 0:54:30.719 --> 0:54:32.000 didn't was not carrying a faun. 0:54:32.320 --> 0:54:36.600 I'm sorry, I misspoke, though, uh not everywhere. This varies 0:54:36.760 --> 0:54:39.560 depending on where you're at in the US. In Mississippi, 0:54:39.560 --> 0:54:43.560 for example, ten to fifteen percent of dough faunds or 0:54:43.680 --> 0:54:47.040 do funds will reach sufficient body size and condition to 0:54:47.200 --> 0:54:49.680 come into heat. They're never going to come in at 0:54:49.680 --> 0:54:52.880 the peak of the rut, it'll be two three weeks 0:54:52.920 --> 0:54:56.960 a month later by the time they've reached physiological condition 0:54:57.000 --> 0:54:58.320 where they can come into estras. 0:54:58.320 --> 0:55:00.239 Got it, so that we'll be part of it, and 0:55:00.280 --> 0:55:02.280 that can drive a little late rut action. 0:55:02.480 --> 0:55:03.240 That's your trickle. 0:55:03.680 --> 0:55:06.560 If you do believe in the rutting moon. This year 0:55:06.640 --> 0:55:09.799 twenty twenty five, it is November fifth, so you're you're 0:55:09.920 --> 0:55:14.200 like straddling a synchronized rut and a classic rut, meaning 0:55:14.239 --> 0:55:15.759 that like November five to ten. 0:55:15.880 --> 0:55:16.480 Period. 0:55:16.480 --> 0:55:20.920 Wow, it's gonna be November five to ten. All right, 0:55:20.960 --> 0:55:22.000 let's back it up like those. 0:55:23.280 --> 0:55:24.880 To be clear, I don't believe in this either. I 0:55:24.920 --> 0:55:27.960 just love that, but I throw out this thing because 0:55:27.960 --> 0:55:28.440 some people do. 0:55:28.520 --> 0:55:31.200 But then he and then he, he says that's not right, 0:55:31.239 --> 0:55:33.200 and then you alert everybody what day. 0:55:33.080 --> 0:55:36.480 To be Because because I love that people do believe it. 0:55:36.520 --> 0:55:39.040 I really appreciate that those folks have taken the time 0:55:39.120 --> 0:55:42.480 to develop a theory and to spread that theory around. 0:55:42.719 --> 0:55:45.480 Reason you have bigfoot experts on radio the other day. 0:55:45.480 --> 0:55:49.880 Exactly, we need a new believer hat it's not just 0:55:49.920 --> 0:55:51.120 the black bucket of moon. 0:55:51.280 --> 0:55:53.240 Yeah, exactly, that's great idea. 0:55:53.400 --> 0:55:56.560 Oh, core full moon buck, That says believer. 0:55:58.680 --> 0:56:04.520 What's the purpose of the timing of the ruts when 0:56:04.640 --> 0:56:08.160 the fawns will hit the ground in spring? Yeah? Yeah, 0:56:08.880 --> 0:56:13.640 Why would mother nature? Why would evolution have that affected 0:56:13.719 --> 0:56:18.960 by some moon. So the most reliable clock, of course, 0:56:19.120 --> 0:56:23.239 is photo period. They can be calibrated so well, and 0:56:23.280 --> 0:56:27.359 so it's so important over time of when the dough 0:56:27.400 --> 0:56:29.879 needs to be bred seven months later, when that fawn 0:56:30.000 --> 0:56:30.359 is going. 0:56:30.280 --> 0:56:30.920 To be dropped. 0:56:32.000 --> 0:56:35.520 Why would evolution fold in any of the moon stuff 0:56:35.560 --> 0:56:39.399 to tinker with that at all, I mean, biologically or ecologically. 0:56:39.400 --> 0:56:44.439 That just doesn't make sense. However, we did test this, 0:56:45.480 --> 0:56:47.120 and so we did it two ways. We did it 0:56:47.160 --> 0:56:49.560 at an individual scale and we did it at a 0:56:49.600 --> 0:56:55.080 population scale, individual scale with our captive deer herd. We 0:56:55.200 --> 0:57:00.920 looked at records of estrus and copulation for all of 0:57:00.960 --> 0:57:04.280 our does so population of doze over many, many, many years, 0:57:04.320 --> 0:57:06.800 and so we know when they were coming into heat, 0:57:07.080 --> 0:57:08.680 and we knew when they were bred. So we have 0:57:08.760 --> 0:57:13.759 those records. We then line that up with this rutting moon. 0:57:14.440 --> 0:57:16.840 And so every year you know that rutting moon is 0:57:16.960 --> 0:57:19.840 moving back and forth a week or fifteen days or whatever. 0:57:20.240 --> 0:57:23.320 And so we should have seen if it was influencing 0:57:23.400 --> 0:57:25.800 when they are coming into estrus, we should have seen 0:57:25.840 --> 0:57:28.520 them moving towards that or moving back. 0:57:29.320 --> 0:57:30.680 Zero. 0:57:30.960 --> 0:57:34.640 We then go to let's go to wild populations, and 0:57:34.720 --> 0:57:37.920 we looked at wildlife management areas and our state Wildlife 0:57:37.960 --> 0:57:41.280 Agency is very good at doing what is called spring 0:57:41.440 --> 0:57:45.960 health checks. What that does is they harvest doze post 0:57:46.000 --> 0:57:49.360 deer season, typically March, and they will look at the 0:57:49.400 --> 0:57:52.880 condition of dose and then also look at the number 0:57:52.880 --> 0:57:55.880 of fetuses that they are carrying. So along with all 0:57:55.960 --> 0:57:58.760 the general hunter harvest data, that is a way for 0:57:58.800 --> 0:58:02.520 them to look at what's the condition of this population statewide, 0:58:02.600 --> 0:58:05.080 so forth. So we know where the rut is in 0:58:05.200 --> 0:58:07.120 all these places, we know where the peak of the 0:58:07.200 --> 0:58:09.960 rut is, and so we then line that up with 0:58:10.480 --> 0:58:16.960 the rutting moon zero no effect whatsoever. So individually population 0:58:17.120 --> 0:58:20.680 wise logic, Yeah, doesn't make sense to. 0:58:20.640 --> 0:58:22.479 Me because of the Mississippi deer. 0:58:23.160 --> 0:58:26.520 That's why maybe it's just those Mississippi deer. 0:58:27.440 --> 0:58:31.440 Would it be worth just taking five minutes to tabrons 0:58:31.440 --> 0:58:35.160 and explain what confirmation bias is and how that shows 0:58:35.280 --> 0:58:37.200 up in hunters? 0:58:38.480 --> 0:58:38.760 Sure? 0:58:39.320 --> 0:58:39.800 I think so? 0:58:40.160 --> 0:58:44.320 Yeah. My favorite analogy about this is you go, I 0:58:44.360 --> 0:58:46.400 don't know, surprise analogy, Like you go out and you 0:58:46.480 --> 0:58:49.920 fishing small mouths and you're throwing shar troops and you 0:58:49.920 --> 0:58:52.560 get a bunch, You're hitting them real good. Then at 0:58:52.600 --> 0:58:55.560 one minute you throw on a pumpkin colored jig and 0:58:55.560 --> 0:58:57.320 you're fishing for a couple of seconds, you don't get 0:58:57.320 --> 0:59:00.280 a hit. You put shar truce back on lo and 0:59:00.280 --> 0:59:02.840 behold throughout the day you keep catching fish. They were 0:59:02.840 --> 0:59:06.360 coming on hartreuse. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And like there's something 0:59:06.400 --> 0:59:09.600 to that, because you know, ain't shartruths. It ain't no use. 0:59:09.680 --> 0:59:12.120 But I'm saying like you do have a way of 0:59:12.360 --> 0:59:14.680 you know, like if you were going to go design 0:59:14.760 --> 0:59:18.160 a study about what color small mouth bass are hitting 0:59:18.160 --> 0:59:19.960 on in some given day, it wouldn't be like that, 0:59:21.120 --> 0:59:24.680 you know. Yeah. So I think that you find part 0:59:24.720 --> 0:59:27.760 of the fun. You find patterns and things, and and 0:59:28.640 --> 0:59:33.160 you know that works for me. Therefore that's what that's 0:59:33.200 --> 0:59:34.080 dictated by. 0:59:34.000 --> 0:59:39.000 Nature, right, Yeah, Well that's a that's a deeper question. 0:59:39.080 --> 0:59:41.439 I mean, that would be a psychologist to get into 0:59:41.480 --> 0:59:44.040 all the logical fallacies and how the brain works with that. 0:59:44.160 --> 0:59:46.360 But I guess the way I think about it, is 0:59:47.560 --> 0:59:50.560 we're we're really good as human beings. We want to 0:59:50.560 --> 0:59:53.840 find patterns, so we're trying to find the shortcut. We're 0:59:53.880 --> 0:59:57.280 really good that that's helped us, that's helped human beings 0:59:57.600 --> 0:59:59.640 to be able to link those things together, and that's 0:59:59.680 --> 1:00:03.920 the path. Let's capitalize on it. But the problem that 1:00:04.120 --> 1:00:08.560 we have is we become enamored with this linkage that 1:00:08.600 --> 1:00:13.040 we have made between these two things. A leads to B, 1:00:13.040 --> 1:00:18.440 B leads to C, and we will start ignoring contrary evidence. 1:00:18.480 --> 1:00:23.840 So it's like we become bought in and emotionally invested 1:00:23.920 --> 1:00:26.760 in our and hey, in science, it's it's called the 1:00:26.800 --> 1:00:30.400 pet hypothesis. That's why we have to get outside peer review. 1:00:30.440 --> 1:00:32.440 That's why you got to talk to a buddy, help me, 1:00:32.680 --> 1:00:36.120 help me think about this. I'm really locked in confirmation 1:00:36.280 --> 1:00:40.040 bias could be bothering me here. But but I think 1:00:40.080 --> 1:00:43.680 that is always going on. Is we we never remember 1:00:43.760 --> 1:00:49.080 the times we were unsuccessful. We disproportionately remember the times 1:00:49.120 --> 1:00:50.520 that we were mm hm. 1:00:53.000 --> 1:00:56.040 And I think if we if you are a moon believer, 1:00:57.280 --> 1:01:00.960 you only go hunt in those conditions where you mostly 1:01:01.040 --> 1:01:04.720 hunt those conditions that you think are you know, positively 1:01:04.760 --> 1:01:07.560 affect your deer hunting. You're not hunting the other days, 1:01:08.160 --> 1:01:12.040 and so you only have a data set from those days. Yeah, 1:01:12.280 --> 1:01:14.200 and it could be exactly the same from the days 1:01:14.200 --> 1:01:16.120 that the moon is doing something completely different. 1:01:16.600 --> 1:01:19.760 Yeah. And you may be a good enough hunter, and 1:01:19.800 --> 1:01:22.360 you may be hunting in a enough of a target 1:01:22.440 --> 1:01:25.280 rich environment where every day you go, you were going 1:01:25.360 --> 1:01:28.280 to see deer if that's your metric for success, but 1:01:28.320 --> 1:01:30.720 you're only going to go on those special days, and 1:01:30.760 --> 1:01:35.360 then that just keeps reinforcing that this moon condition or 1:01:35.360 --> 1:01:39.120 weather condition or whatever was the reason for my success. 1:01:39.760 --> 1:01:42.720 When the way to do it would be, and nobody's 1:01:42.720 --> 1:01:45.960 gonna do this. I'm going to get a random number generator, 1:01:46.040 --> 1:01:47.920 and I'm going to get a calendar, and I'm going 1:01:47.960 --> 1:01:51.040 to pick out these particular days and I'm gonna go hunt. 1:01:51.400 --> 1:01:52.360 That's a fun study. 1:01:52.600 --> 1:01:58.160 And or look at camera data. Yeah, that'd be another way. 1:01:58.400 --> 1:02:00.800 Just record camera data all the time and go back 1:02:00.800 --> 1:02:03.439 and look at it. 1:02:03.520 --> 1:02:04.200 This is about the moon. 1:02:04.720 --> 1:02:09.200 It's it's sort of Bloomberg had an article that bigfoot 1:02:09.240 --> 1:02:12.160 sightings have decreased in the last decade. They peaked around 1:02:12.240 --> 1:02:14.640 like two thousand and four or so, and they've been 1:02:14.680 --> 1:02:19.680 going down ever since. If deer hunters were like very 1:02:19.720 --> 1:02:23.120 conscious of what their trail cameras are telling them. Now 1:02:23.120 --> 1:02:26.120 that trail cameras are so effective and so cheap and 1:02:26.480 --> 1:02:30.600 sell cams are very available, I feel like the same 1:02:30.640 --> 1:02:33.440 thing would happen that if you pulled deer hunters in 1:02:33.480 --> 1:02:36.400 twenty years from now, it wouldn't be eighty three percent anymore. 1:02:36.600 --> 1:02:37.520 Yeah, it would be. 1:02:37.480 --> 1:02:41.000 Lower because they if they were trying to like really 1:02:41.000 --> 1:02:43.280 pay attention, they would maybe notice it. Oh yeah, the 1:02:43.280 --> 1:02:46.440 moon isn't saying that that the deer movement is different 1:02:46.800 --> 1:02:48.080 based on what the moon is doing. 1:02:48.640 --> 1:02:51.720 Yeah, I agree. I just think it's gonna take a 1:02:51.800 --> 1:02:56.479 long time because it's really difficult to let go right 1:02:56.800 --> 1:03:01.720 with that belief, especially if within your little group, you're 1:03:01.760 --> 1:03:06.360 you're the older, wiser, you're the influencer. The single most 1:03:06.360 --> 1:03:10.240 difficult thing for a human being to say publicly, I 1:03:10.360 --> 1:03:10.760 was wrong. 1:03:11.600 --> 1:03:12.000 Mm hmm. 1:03:12.200 --> 1:03:15.240 I mean, that's that's real. That's very powerful. It's so 1:03:15.360 --> 1:03:18.080 difficult to stand up and go forgive me, I was wrong. 1:03:18.120 --> 1:03:21.360 I made a big mistake. People are very reluctant. 1:03:20.920 --> 1:03:22.960 To do that. I'm going to hit you with a 1:03:23.000 --> 1:03:25.439 real I want to bring something up, but I don't 1:03:25.440 --> 1:03:30.760 want to dwell on it. What's your take on? How 1:03:30.760 --> 1:03:35.000 do I even ask this man? I'm trying to figure out. 1:03:34.040 --> 1:03:35.840 He's just saying he wants a real concise ance. 1:03:35.880 --> 1:03:37.520 I don't want to get into it. I'm just curious 1:03:37.560 --> 1:03:40.240 because you're a big deer guy. Do your hunter deer researcher, 1:03:41.480 --> 1:03:44.200 give me, give me your basic like one sentence, what's 1:03:44.240 --> 1:03:45.640 your basic take on CWD? 1:03:46.400 --> 1:03:55.440 It's it's real, it's it's the single biggest challenge I 1:03:55.520 --> 1:04:00.480 believe to deer management and the application of science ants 1:04:01.000 --> 1:04:08.000 while simultaneously keeping hunters engaged and believing in science. That 1:04:08.120 --> 1:04:12.040 wasn't very concise, but that's that's the way. It's the 1:04:12.160 --> 1:04:13.400 challenge of our time. 1:04:13.520 --> 1:04:16.680 You think it's you believe it's a legitimate threat at. 1:04:16.560 --> 1:04:17.440 A herd level. 1:04:17.640 --> 1:04:20.160 Yes, yes, yes I do. 1:04:21.840 --> 1:04:25.880 Earlier you mentioned different buck personalities? 1:04:26.600 --> 1:04:29.840 Are there? Is it? Is it possible to give like 1:04:29.880 --> 1:04:32.240 a handful of buck personality types? 1:04:33.480 --> 1:04:34.720 Yeah? 1:04:35.400 --> 1:04:37.000 And have you heard of a shirker buck? 1:04:38.480 --> 1:04:38.960 I have not. 1:04:39.840 --> 1:04:42.040 Okay, go on, okay, different. 1:04:41.680 --> 1:04:44.600 Buck we'll come back to We'll come back to that. 1:04:46.600 --> 1:04:51.800 You never heard of a shirker I'm not recalling val geist, Oh, 1:04:51.880 --> 1:04:56.720 val Geist I have heard of that word, but man, 1:04:56.840 --> 1:04:59.000 I'm drawing a blank on. 1:04:58.600 --> 1:05:00.000 We'll come around to it. 1:05:00.240 --> 1:05:02.360 Do give me some buck personality types. 1:05:02.120 --> 1:05:07.320 Buck personalities, Well, it's just two from what we categorize. 1:05:07.600 --> 1:05:11.440 This is just relative. We call it buck movement behavior. 1:05:11.520 --> 1:05:12.600 Yeah, that's what I'm getting at. 1:05:12.640 --> 1:05:14.080 Yeah, I don't mean like what they're thinking about. I 1:05:14.080 --> 1:05:17.200 mean what they're like personality types in a way that 1:05:17.240 --> 1:05:19.000 would impact the hunter's experience. 1:05:19.080 --> 1:05:23.920 Yeah, so that we call it a sedentary type that's 1:05:23.920 --> 1:05:28.120 gonna be your introvert, and then your mobile personality type 1:05:28.160 --> 1:05:31.520 that's gonna be your extrovert. Uh. The what people thought 1:05:31.560 --> 1:05:33.680 for the longest time, until we had the type of 1:05:33.680 --> 1:05:37.360 instrumentation to be able to see this, was that after 1:05:37.520 --> 1:05:39.960 yearling buck dispersal, a buck is going to go set 1:05:40.040 --> 1:05:42.919 up and have his home range, and that is where 1:05:42.960 --> 1:05:44.640 it's going to be. Now, the size of that home 1:05:44.760 --> 1:05:48.240 range can vary by resources. He may be a five 1:05:48.360 --> 1:05:51.040 hundred acre home range guy, he may be a fifteen 1:05:51.160 --> 1:05:54.280 hundred acre home range guy. But that is where he 1:05:54.440 --> 1:05:58.400 is essentially going to live and die is in that 1:05:58.400 --> 1:06:03.040 that fixed home range. What we found is that about 1:06:03.080 --> 1:06:10.280 thirty percent of our bucks have completely disconnected and disjointed 1:06:10.800 --> 1:06:14.919 home ranges, and so they will spend six, seven, eight 1:06:15.000 --> 1:06:18.720 months and one location, and then they will get up 1:06:18.760 --> 1:06:21.960 and move to a completely different location. 1:06:21.800 --> 1:06:23.080 Just forget about the old spot. 1:06:23.800 --> 1:06:24.280 That's right. 1:06:24.680 --> 1:06:25.160 That's right. 1:06:25.760 --> 1:06:29.960 The most sensational example, just to show you that intrinsically 1:06:30.080 --> 1:06:33.120 in some deer, this is in them that they are 1:06:33.320 --> 1:06:37.360 going to do it. We call her a buck. In 1:06:37.440 --> 1:06:43.439 Mississippi fall winter, and we started noticing really strange long 1:06:43.480 --> 1:06:47.040 distance behavior about February so in Mississippi, so we're on 1:06:47.080 --> 1:06:49.720 the east side of the Mississippi River. He goes all 1:06:49.800 --> 1:06:53.000 the way to the Mississippi River miles and miles of miles, 1:06:53.760 --> 1:06:56.880 and then paces up and down the river for a 1:06:56.960 --> 1:07:00.880 few days, and then crosses the river and then sets 1:07:00.920 --> 1:07:07.600 up camp in Louisiana for essentially all summer. August rolls around. 1:07:07.880 --> 1:07:10.960 He does the same thing. On the Louisiana side. He 1:07:11.040 --> 1:07:13.440 goes stages by the river a day or two, getting 1:07:13.480 --> 1:07:17.040 up his nerve, maybe swims the river, comes back to 1:07:17.040 --> 1:07:20.400 Mississippi to that exact same home range he was the 1:07:20.480 --> 1:07:23.880 year before. Did that two years in a row, so 1:07:23.960 --> 1:07:28.240 we had four instances of him taking that long distance 1:07:28.360 --> 1:07:33.600 movement and crossing the Mississippi River. So that's an extreme 1:07:33.680 --> 1:07:38.040 example of a mobile personality. And just the way the 1:07:38.200 --> 1:07:41.840 crow flies distance it was just shy twenty miles wow, 1:07:41.880 --> 1:07:44.200 so his route was a lot more than that. 1:07:44.400 --> 1:07:46.439 Yeah, And it's like you could see him doing it once, right, 1:07:47.240 --> 1:07:49.240 and then he has a good experience or doesn't have 1:07:49.240 --> 1:07:52.840 a good experience, but the fact that he he goes 1:07:52.880 --> 1:07:55.480 back to Mississippi. Then a while later he wants to 1:07:56.400 --> 1:08:00.000 you know what I mean, yeah, like repeat it where yeah, 1:08:00.280 --> 1:08:03.440 just felt or we wind up thinking that it's a 1:08:03.440 --> 1:08:07.520 bigger deal, that that swim is a bigger deal than 1:08:07.520 --> 1:08:10.120 he regards it as. Right, I was reading this thing 1:08:10.160 --> 1:08:11.760 like these guys were looking at it. There used to 1:08:11.760 --> 1:08:13.400 be this thing that links. They used to think that 1:08:13.440 --> 1:08:15.640 links didn't like cross big rivers, and they thought these 1:08:15.680 --> 1:08:19.000 big rivers were boxed in links home ranges. So they 1:08:19.080 --> 1:08:21.600 had these links with collars were swimming the tan and 1:08:21.680 --> 1:08:25.960 awe swimming the Yukon, you know, mm hmm. And people 1:08:26.000 --> 1:08:28.200 always saw it just they had just figured that that's 1:08:28.240 --> 1:08:31.760 a border to a lynx's habitat. That's some bit just yeah, 1:08:31.840 --> 1:08:33.760 right across it, shoot across. You don't even think about it, 1:08:33.760 --> 1:08:36.000 and in the human mind, you're like, oh, that would 1:08:36.040 --> 1:08:38.280 be a he can't get across that. He wouldn't want 1:08:38.280 --> 1:08:39.720 to cross that a cat, you know. 1:08:40.200 --> 1:08:42.960 And yet we had some bucks that, uh in this 1:08:43.040 --> 1:08:45.920 one in the Mississippi River. We're talking about a normal river, 1:08:46.040 --> 1:08:49.639 so think think a river that's fifty yards across or something. 1:08:50.320 --> 1:08:52.960 We had some bucks that would go across that every 1:08:53.040 --> 1:08:56.920 single day. Was not an impediment to them whatsoever. We 1:08:56.960 --> 1:08:59.639 had some bucks that would never cross that river. When 1:08:59.680 --> 1:09:02.839 you look at their home range and all of their points, 1:09:03.120 --> 1:09:06.800 it is directly adjacent to that river. They would not 1:09:07.160 --> 1:09:11.080 do it. Really, So there's just so much variation in 1:09:11.520 --> 1:09:13.839 their personality and what they're willing to accept. 1:09:13.920 --> 1:09:18.080 You can't I guess you probably can't say this is 1:09:18.120 --> 1:09:20.840 one of those strategies better for longevity. Like do you 1:09:20.880 --> 1:09:24.320 find that like super tight stay at home box, super 1:09:24.360 --> 1:09:28.760 small home ranges, they have a greater survival rate or 1:09:28.800 --> 1:09:31.400 is it that not or is that not fair to say. 1:09:31.400 --> 1:09:34.760 Yeah, we didn't have enough of a sample size to 1:09:34.800 --> 1:09:37.400 tease that apart, because again, only a third of them 1:09:37.640 --> 1:09:42.720 were had this mobile personality. But that makes sense to me. 1:09:42.800 --> 1:09:46.360 I think that's reasonable. I also think of it. This 1:09:46.600 --> 1:09:50.040 may be a bad analogy here, but I think it's 1:09:50.120 --> 1:09:55.400 just like embedded within some species and some individuals. There's explorers, 1:09:55.960 --> 1:09:59.640 there's colonizers, there's individuals that are willing to take a 1:09:59.720 --> 1:10:02.800 rip and go somewhere else. And you know, I think 1:10:02.800 --> 1:10:05.840 when you just go way way way back in time, 1:10:06.240 --> 1:10:08.800 you know, hundreds and hundreds of years ago, and you 1:10:08.840 --> 1:10:14.320 think about the landscape and that deer. We're always having 1:10:14.360 --> 1:10:19.080 to colonize different areas based on buffalo going through, based 1:10:19.120 --> 1:10:23.559 on wildfire, and so I just want to think any 1:10:23.640 --> 1:10:28.360 way that that tendency is embedded within some individuals that 1:10:28.720 --> 1:10:30.719 I'm going to go look, I'm going to go explore 1:10:30.760 --> 1:10:33.960 and I'm going to capitalize on some resources unbeknownst to me. 1:10:34.400 --> 1:10:36.960 Yeah right here. Oh yeah, because if not you because 1:10:37.040 --> 1:10:41.479 as as environments and landscapes change, if everybody was a 1:10:41.520 --> 1:10:44.160 super home body, you'd have awesome pieces of habitat open 1:10:44.240 --> 1:10:51.320 up and like we're never found. Word doesn't get out. Yeah, 1:10:51.760 --> 1:10:56.320 with the with the idea that like I've heard this 1:10:56.360 --> 1:10:59.840 express two ways, maybe it's not this clean that during 1:10:59.880 --> 1:11:02.320 the rut bucks move more. Okay. 1:11:04.000 --> 1:11:06.080 I remember someone pointing. 1:11:05.720 --> 1:11:10.240 Out, like they move more but they don't move to 1:11:10.400 --> 1:11:14.559 new places more. They just move more in the places 1:11:14.600 --> 1:11:15.519 that they already move. 1:11:15.479 --> 1:11:17.880 Anyways, is that fair. 1:11:18.160 --> 1:11:19.080 That's not think that's fair. 1:11:19.160 --> 1:11:22.360 That's not fair. Yeah, okay, So what. 1:11:22.720 --> 1:11:24.680 We were able to do is, of course we did 1:11:24.680 --> 1:11:29.360 all the annual home range stuff, but we also looked 1:11:29.360 --> 1:11:35.240 at two week home ranges, daily home ranges, and a 1:11:35.360 --> 1:11:39.920 term called net distance or net displacement. And the bottom 1:11:39.960 --> 1:11:43.400 line is you will see the greatest home range if 1:11:43.400 --> 1:11:45.720 you look at it in two week periods during the 1:11:45.760 --> 1:11:48.680 peak of the rut and during the late rut or 1:11:48.720 --> 1:11:53.599 immediately after the peak of the rut. But the amount 1:11:53.680 --> 1:11:57.040 of area that a buck is spending each day, it 1:11:57.080 --> 1:11:59.800 did not matter if it was pre rut, no rut, 1:12:00.280 --> 1:12:05.920 after the rut. Two hundred acres per day independent okay, 1:12:06.320 --> 1:12:10.120 on a daily scale, independent on the time of year, 1:12:10.479 --> 1:12:14.240 rut phase or not peak of the rut, post rut, 1:12:14.360 --> 1:12:18.559 pre rut, et cetera. Did not matter. Even though there 1:12:18.960 --> 1:12:26.040 they're daily ground they were covering could be greater. During 1:12:26.080 --> 1:12:29.360 the rut, the amount of area that they were covered 1:12:29.720 --> 1:12:34.040 was two hundred acres per day, But when you look 1:12:34.080 --> 1:12:37.240 at the very next day where they're at, it will 1:12:37.280 --> 1:12:42.040 be further apart, meaning a buck is spending covering ground 1:12:42.080 --> 1:12:45.840 about two hundred acres of ground per day, but during 1:12:45.920 --> 1:12:48.479 the peak of the rut in late rut, those daily 1:12:48.760 --> 1:12:57.320 areas or places are further apart. Really, maybe you make. 1:12:57.439 --> 1:13:00.320 A single move and then do the two hundred yard 1:13:00.360 --> 1:13:02.800 circuit and then makes a single move into another two 1:13:02.840 --> 1:13:04.479 hundred yard circuit. Is that what you're saying? 1:13:05.240 --> 1:13:09.400 Yeah, so maybe think of it like this. When you 1:13:09.479 --> 1:13:13.519 get into a non rut and early pre rut, every 1:13:13.600 --> 1:13:17.360 single day there is a great deal of overlap in 1:13:17.400 --> 1:13:21.160 the area of buckets covering. He might have an overlap 1:13:21.160 --> 1:13:23.960 of eighty percent of the area he covered the day before, 1:13:24.160 --> 1:13:27.960 he's in this area. But when you get to later 1:13:28.080 --> 1:13:31.200 in the rut, because now they're seeking, they're chasing, they're looking. 1:13:31.640 --> 1:13:34.559 Now we're spending two hundred acres away over here, fifteen 1:13:34.600 --> 1:13:37.519 hundred yards away, he's in a completely different area. He's 1:13:37.560 --> 1:13:40.680 covering the same amount of area in a twenty four 1:13:40.720 --> 1:13:44.479 hour time frame, but the distance away from the dates 1:13:44.720 --> 1:13:46.080 he's exploring new spots. 1:13:46.400 --> 1:13:48.360 Yeah. 1:13:49.000 --> 1:13:51.880 Really, so do you really as a hunter then are 1:13:51.880 --> 1:13:57.360 we trying to capitalize on that move between the two spots? 1:13:58.600 --> 1:14:02.200 If you can. I mean, if if you can find out. 1:14:02.120 --> 1:14:07.760 I rut funnel, it would be a good place to sit, right, Okay. 1:14:07.640 --> 1:14:10.360 I think you got to frame it like this. If 1:14:10.640 --> 1:14:13.120 if you've got a lot of intel on a buck, 1:14:13.200 --> 1:14:16.040 I mean, I know from camera data observation, I know 1:14:16.439 --> 1:14:19.759 kind of where he's going to be. The best chance 1:14:19.840 --> 1:14:24.000 for that is pre rut. But if you want to 1:14:24.040 --> 1:14:26.160 go out, I'm going to go to the woods and 1:14:26.200 --> 1:14:29.920 what are my greatest odds of seeing a buck? A 1:14:29.960 --> 1:14:34.120 good buck? Then because of that movement behavior that is 1:14:34.240 --> 1:14:34.840 absolutely so. 1:14:34.880 --> 1:14:38.080 The one that hides out of old Lady Thompson's might 1:14:38.080 --> 1:14:39.240 be off on your spot. 1:14:39.560 --> 1:14:42.920 That's right, that's right, he's gonna shift, he's gonna move. 1:14:43.400 --> 1:14:43.839 Yeah. 1:14:45.320 --> 1:14:49.320 Really mm hmm. I can show you the show the data. 1:14:49.439 --> 1:14:51.240 Yeah, oh, let me, I'll hit you know, and then 1:14:51.280 --> 1:14:52.760 these guys can hit you with whatever they want. 1:14:53.640 --> 1:14:55.479 Do you this might not be something you can tell 1:14:55.520 --> 1:14:56.160 from your data. 1:14:56.920 --> 1:15:01.759 Do you think it's true that bucks play the wind 1:15:02.520 --> 1:15:05.320 and cruise for does by coming on the down wind 1:15:05.360 --> 1:15:06.240 side of betting cover? 1:15:09.040 --> 1:15:12.000 I think probably fifty percent of the time they do. 1:15:12.479 --> 1:15:18.920 Okay, so they're not visually looking for them. They do, 1:15:19.000 --> 1:15:22.280 but they in addition to visually looking, they're cruising to 1:15:22.320 --> 1:15:22.880 smell them. 1:15:23.240 --> 1:15:27.599 Yeah, what we generally think of right now, and this 1:15:27.640 --> 1:15:30.559 could have a lot to do with those two hundred 1:15:30.560 --> 1:15:35.559 acre daily areas being so far apart and disjointed. What 1:15:35.600 --> 1:15:39.720 we think is that bucks are cruising to find what 1:15:39.840 --> 1:15:44.519 are called dough focal areas. So think about the social 1:15:44.760 --> 1:15:49.519 behavior of your dough population, those matrilineal groups. And so 1:15:49.880 --> 1:15:52.120 here's a group of dose here, here's a group of 1:15:52.160 --> 1:15:55.479 dose over here. We think of it as a circuit. 1:15:56.439 --> 1:15:59.120 And so a buck is going to go into this area. 1:15:59.200 --> 1:16:03.559 He knows who all's there, you know, via signposts sent 1:16:03.720 --> 1:16:06.760 so forth. He's gonna check it. Since check it, who's 1:16:06.840 --> 1:16:09.639 good or bad? Anybody close coming into heat? Maybe she's 1:16:09.640 --> 1:16:13.479 already into heat but occupied. He's gonna go to another area, 1:16:14.439 --> 1:16:17.479 part of that circuit and look for adoin estris there. 1:16:18.240 --> 1:16:20.519 Okay, I light, I got one more question than he's 1:16:20.520 --> 1:16:21.200 Guys can hit some. 1:16:23.080 --> 1:16:25.000 I asked this earlier, but I kind of screwed it up. 1:16:27.240 --> 1:16:32.680 During peak rut? Is there like a high Is there 1:16:33.120 --> 1:16:35.719 a strong likelihood or however you want to put it, 1:16:35.760 --> 1:16:39.280 Is there a strong likelihood that a buck will go 1:16:39.400 --> 1:16:42.080 somewhere during peak rut that he has never before been 1:16:42.160 --> 1:16:45.000 in his life, or is he usually at some point 1:16:45.000 --> 1:16:47.120 in his life been to all the places he's gonna go. 1:16:47.280 --> 1:16:50.439 So he's visiting places he knows about, or is he 1:16:50.600 --> 1:16:53.559 legit like going spots he's never seen before. 1:16:55.720 --> 1:16:59.080 I think the answer is yes, But I don't think 1:16:59.120 --> 1:17:01.920 that is just during the rut. So the way we 1:17:01.960 --> 1:17:05.800 would define that would be called an excursion, and so 1:17:05.920 --> 1:17:08.960 that would be different from a mobile personality like we 1:17:09.000 --> 1:17:11.320 talked about earlier, because that is where you set up 1:17:11.360 --> 1:17:14.440 a new home range and you have affinity for that area, 1:17:14.520 --> 1:17:17.240 and excursion is I'm in my existing home range and 1:17:17.240 --> 1:17:19.240 I'm gonna take a trip yep, a two to three 1:17:19.320 --> 1:17:21.320 day I'm will cut a loop and go here and 1:17:21.360 --> 1:17:25.559 go here. We see those start to occur during the 1:17:25.600 --> 1:17:29.479 pre rut, and it really escalates during the rut. But 1:17:29.600 --> 1:17:33.559 with our data during our study, we saw the greatest 1:17:33.560 --> 1:17:36.200 amount of excursions in the in the post rut, so 1:17:36.400 --> 1:17:37.439 after the rut. 1:17:37.520 --> 1:17:41.920 But excursions being that he again like he's going to 1:17:42.520 --> 1:17:43.720 it might be hard to do it because you can't 1:17:43.760 --> 1:17:46.519 track him his whole life. He's going to places he's 1:17:46.640 --> 1:17:51.920 never been. I can't answer that because you don't know 1:17:51.960 --> 1:17:53.880 where he's because you can't you don't know his whole life. 1:17:53.880 --> 1:17:56.240 I don't have his whole life history, got it. 1:17:56.360 --> 1:18:00.639 Yeah, Yeah, but we we definitely saw the the bucks 1:18:00.680 --> 1:18:04.320 going to novel areas within the limited time frame we 1:18:04.360 --> 1:18:05.120 had them studied. 1:18:05.240 --> 1:18:05.479 We did. 1:18:05.479 --> 1:18:07.680 In other words, we didn't see the exact same excursion 1:18:07.760 --> 1:18:10.720 loop every time they would go different areas. Yeah, and 1:18:10.760 --> 1:18:14.200 so yeah, we think they are looking prospecting, whether it 1:18:14.280 --> 1:18:16.120 be those food resources whatever. 1:18:16.479 --> 1:18:19.519 That's when you get like really vulnerable. Man, Like you 1:18:19.560 --> 1:18:21.840 get really vulnerable to something bad happen to you when 1:18:21.880 --> 1:18:25.600 you're in places you've never been, Like you're on some 1:18:26.200 --> 1:18:27.360 do you know what I mean? You have no idea 1:18:27.400 --> 1:18:31.680 what's going on? And like that to me feels like 1:18:31.720 --> 1:18:33.960 a that to me feels like a buck would get light. Dude, 1:18:34.000 --> 1:18:36.439 I'm not doing that. Yeah, do you know what I mean? Like, 1:18:36.479 --> 1:18:38.400 I'm not like, I've never been there, I have no 1:18:38.439 --> 1:18:41.400 idea what's happening. It seems like they'd feel so vulnerable. 1:18:41.680 --> 1:18:44.160 And from a deer management perspective, I mean, if you 1:18:44.439 --> 1:18:46.519 do the kind of stuff we were gone with, you 1:18:46.560 --> 1:18:49.120 know your you're managing for antlers and older bucks and 1:18:49.120 --> 1:18:52.320 so forth. That is where even with a large area, 1:18:52.400 --> 1:18:54.519 so you may have a five to ten thousand acre 1:18:54.640 --> 1:18:58.320 tract and you were primarily controlling the harvest within that 1:18:58.360 --> 1:19:02.800 population except for the excursion, and so that is where 1:19:02.840 --> 1:19:04.960 you will see some of those target bucks are gonna 1:19:04.960 --> 1:19:07.160 go off and man, they get hammered. 1:19:07.400 --> 1:19:09.680 Yeah. Yeah, you go over to the place where the 1:19:09.920 --> 1:19:12.000 you know, brown it's down property. 1:19:11.600 --> 1:19:15.800 I get shot. And that is so frustrating because you've 1:19:15.840 --> 1:19:19.120 done everything all year long for years and years and years, 1:19:19.400 --> 1:19:21.840 and you have that weekend where he decides to take 1:19:21.880 --> 1:19:22.640 a trip. 1:19:22.560 --> 1:19:24.040 Do What's funny is uh? 1:19:24.439 --> 1:19:27.720 I know these guys and they have a big no 1:19:27.840 --> 1:19:32.400 fence operation in Texas, but they wound up doing one fence. 1:19:33.160 --> 1:19:36.200 They fenced one property line because they have some brown 1:19:36.240 --> 1:19:40.479 it's down neighbors and so they just tried to like 1:19:40.560 --> 1:19:43.559 control it a little bit by blocking that spot right 1:19:44.120 --> 1:19:47.040 you know, the other three sides or do whatever they want. Yeah. 1:19:47.520 --> 1:19:50.679 I got a couple of places like that too. It's 1:19:50.760 --> 1:19:53.120 that pinch point, that corridor of where they're going to 1:19:53.200 --> 1:19:55.280 go on to that other property and we're gonna block. 1:19:55.040 --> 1:19:56.640 That up, and these dudes stands. 1:19:56.800 --> 1:19:59.439 It's so funny is these dudes stands are all we're 1:19:59.479 --> 1:20:04.400 all that property life. Oh yeah, oh just waiting, you know, Yeah, 1:20:05.320 --> 1:20:06.160 all right, I'm done. 1:20:08.560 --> 1:20:12.160 The October Boogeyman is the October law for hunters. The 1:20:12.200 --> 1:20:16.479 November version of that is lockdown, where there's an idea 1:20:16.640 --> 1:20:18.760 that there is a phase of the rut for like 1:20:18.840 --> 1:20:22.439 two to four days where a buck gets a hot 1:20:22.479 --> 1:20:26.120 dough around like November sixteenth, and they bed down and 1:20:26.160 --> 1:20:29.800 they breed and they just become less visible and they 1:20:29.880 --> 1:20:34.479 just become very dedicated to that spot and like running 1:20:34.720 --> 1:20:35.360 with each other. 1:20:35.960 --> 1:20:37.400 I don't care what he says, this is true? 1:20:37.560 --> 1:20:38.080 Is that a thing? 1:20:38.280 --> 1:20:41.160 Do the deer movement studies show thing. 1:20:41.760 --> 1:20:44.719 Yeah, they just stand there like the does are feeding, 1:20:44.680 --> 1:20:46.280 and he just stands there. He doesn't lay down, he 1:20:46.320 --> 1:20:47.960 doesn't eat, he just stands there. 1:20:48.240 --> 1:20:49.559 Yeah, that's legit. 1:20:49.840 --> 1:20:52.920 Oh it is okay, Yeah, because everything else you're like, no, 1:20:53.000 --> 1:20:55.800 that's not true. That's legit. 1:20:55.880 --> 1:20:57.360 So you get like in the peak of the rut, 1:20:58.000 --> 1:21:01.679 this is going to occur all all the time. When 1:21:01.720 --> 1:21:05.920 there is a dough an estras it becomes a population 1:21:06.120 --> 1:21:09.479 a level of fact, or it becomes noticeable when a 1:21:09.560 --> 1:21:13.240 greater proportion of the does are in standing heat and 1:21:13.320 --> 1:21:17.000 bucks are tending them. So you're gonna have less bucks 1:21:17.040 --> 1:21:19.800 available roaming the landscape because they're locked in. 1:21:19.960 --> 1:21:24.000 If there are too many dos, that happens. 1:21:24.040 --> 1:21:26.960 You're saying no, I'm saying that if you had an 1:21:27.000 --> 1:21:28.479 appropriate number of doughs. 1:21:28.760 --> 1:21:32.519 Okay, that's kind of like some magical world every dough, 1:21:32.880 --> 1:21:35.200 like you have some thing where it lists every dough 1:21:35.200 --> 1:21:39.120 in a population all came into heat on November seventh. 1:21:39.280 --> 1:21:42.240 It would be reasonable to assume that on November seventh, 1:21:43.240 --> 1:21:46.240 no bucks are running around doing crazy stuff, right because 1:21:46.240 --> 1:21:47.839 they're standing there with all these doughs. 1:21:47.640 --> 1:21:51.800 That are exactly And then twenty eight days later you're 1:21:51.800 --> 1:21:54.719 gonna have the leftovers because the sex ratio, there's always 1:21:54.720 --> 1:21:57.960 more doughs than bucks, and so some of them may 1:21:58.000 --> 1:22:01.559 not get bred, and so then that would follow again 1:22:01.720 --> 1:22:02.760 twenty eight days later. 1:22:03.280 --> 1:22:06.040 How impactful, though, do you think lockdown is? Is it 1:22:06.080 --> 1:22:08.000 a thing where like hunters are going to have a 1:22:08.000 --> 1:22:09.439 worse experience in the woods. 1:22:11.160 --> 1:22:14.519 I would still go because it's it's the rut. I 1:22:14.520 --> 1:22:18.040 would look at it as the frequency of just seeing 1:22:18.560 --> 1:22:22.200 more bucks during that time frame is gonna be less 1:22:22.360 --> 1:22:25.200 because some of them are locked in with does, but 1:22:25.400 --> 1:22:27.599 you also have the odd man out or the odd 1:22:27.680 --> 1:22:30.040 buck out, and he's gonna be going around looking for 1:22:30.160 --> 1:22:34.280 another dough and estress, so that there's still gonna be 1:22:34.400 --> 1:22:37.439 general buck movement. You're just gonna have a greater number 1:22:37.600 --> 1:22:39.679 of them that is occupying a dough. 1:22:39.600 --> 1:22:41.960 And there's no crater though in the bell curve. When 1:22:42.000 --> 1:22:46.799 that happens, don't see it, Okay, Yeah, man, I wonder. 1:22:46.640 --> 1:22:49.479 If you do, you could tell me what days not 1:22:49.600 --> 1:22:50.280 to hunt. 1:22:50.800 --> 1:22:53.200 What I'm thinking is this man picture you got like 1:22:53.280 --> 1:22:56.360 some kind of weird deal where you can it's illegal, 1:22:58.640 --> 1:23:01.679 like you put out some kind of a birth control 1:23:01.760 --> 1:23:04.680 thing or something where none of the dos ever come in. 1:23:04.840 --> 1:23:07.479 Oh, Bucks, just crazy everywhere. 1:23:08.520 --> 1:23:11.639 It's a short term play. Yeah, it's not a good lie. 1:23:11.720 --> 1:23:13.920 That'd be some some evil science there. 1:23:14.600 --> 1:23:17.439 It's a bad long term play. You're going to see 1:23:17.479 --> 1:23:18.639 a plumbing deer population. 1:23:19.040 --> 1:23:22.960 We're in Wisconsin. Uh you know, cwd's big there, big deer. 1:23:23.000 --> 1:23:26.679 Heard a lot of our neighbors have started shooting more does. 1:23:28.240 --> 1:23:31.120 Since they've started doing that, they claim to have a 1:23:31.280 --> 1:23:36.920 better rut because less does mean more bucks moving around, 1:23:37.000 --> 1:23:40.320 more bucks reacting to calls does that make sense. 1:23:40.880 --> 1:23:44.920 It makes perfect sense. I do not know of a 1:23:45.280 --> 1:23:49.519 study that has specifically evaluated that, but I think that 1:23:49.640 --> 1:23:54.360 is entirely logical because you've increased competition. You know, they're 1:23:54.600 --> 1:23:57.439 less does per male and so they have to compete more, 1:23:57.560 --> 1:23:59.679 look more, search more, et cetera. 1:24:01.479 --> 1:24:02.120 It's my turn. 1:24:02.479 --> 1:24:04.439 We're just going said you were done. 1:24:04.560 --> 1:24:08.160 I was for my turn when this turn, This turn 1:24:08.160 --> 1:24:09.240 is gonna be one question turned. 1:24:10.680 --> 1:24:11.360 Uh. 1:24:11.760 --> 1:24:14.439 We have a buddy who has a really great property 1:24:14.479 --> 1:24:21.960 in Texas whereabouts Way South Texas, Brownsville, Way South Texas. 1:24:22.920 --> 1:24:27.360 Like when you're cruising around, you see I mean, you 1:24:27.360 --> 1:24:30.559 see way more Bucks and does anyhow, we go down 1:24:30.600 --> 1:24:32.360 there a couple times. We've gone down to Rattle Bucks, 1:24:32.360 --> 1:24:33.800 which is the funnest thing in the world because it's 1:24:33.880 --> 1:24:39.080 very effective there. I developed this little theory that the 1:24:39.120 --> 1:24:42.439 most effective time to rattle them is during the middle 1:24:42.439 --> 1:24:45.080 of the day. In my thinking, the dolls are all 1:24:45.160 --> 1:24:48.799 laying down on their board and they're just more inclined 1:24:48.800 --> 1:24:51.360 to wonder what's up when the doors are up on 1:24:51.439 --> 1:24:53.200 their feet. They're like, yeah, yeah, I hear it, but 1:24:53.240 --> 1:24:57.120 I'm like following my dough around. Then midday he gets bored. 1:24:57.760 --> 1:24:59.920 He hears the rattle, He's got nothing else going on, 1:25:00.120 --> 1:25:02.439 and so he runs over. Yeah, what do you think 1:25:02.479 --> 1:25:03.000 about that? 1:25:03.080 --> 1:25:10.360 There's a merit to that, Steve, but it's wrong. We 1:25:10.400 --> 1:25:15.040 did a study on that. Now I was a tech, 1:25:15.200 --> 1:25:17.760 I was a participant as a buddy of mine. So 1:25:17.840 --> 1:25:20.680 again my master's degree was in South Texas, so I 1:25:20.720 --> 1:25:23.840 spent a lot of time down there, and so we 1:25:23.880 --> 1:25:27.439 did a rattling experiment. To my knowledge, it is the 1:25:27.520 --> 1:25:31.000 only peer reviewed experiment ever done on rattling antlers and 1:25:31.439 --> 1:25:36.599 and dough response. And what we found, very generally was 1:25:36.800 --> 1:25:43.200 we we varied the how loud the rattling was, the 1:25:43.400 --> 1:25:49.439 duration of rattling, the time of day of rattling, and 1:25:49.479 --> 1:25:53.160 then the time of year relative to the rut for 1:25:53.240 --> 1:25:57.080 the rattling. And so the clear winner for time of 1:25:57.200 --> 1:26:04.160 day was crepuscular. No, here's why, because the real winner 1:26:04.320 --> 1:26:07.400 on the rattling technique. And remember back then, so this 1:26:07.439 --> 1:26:10.680 would have been this has been mid nineties, and so 1:26:10.760 --> 1:26:13.559 this is your You're reading the magazine and how do 1:26:13.600 --> 1:26:17.280 you set up your rattling sequence? And so you got 1:26:17.280 --> 1:26:19.640 to get there, and you gotta get crouch and you 1:26:19.720 --> 1:26:23.000 got to scrape the brush and you gotta kick and 1:26:23.000 --> 1:26:25.719 you gotta rattle, and you got to remember that, remember 1:26:25.840 --> 1:26:27.519 all that. 1:26:28.200 --> 1:26:30.040 But anyways, gone, okay, Well. 1:26:30.200 --> 1:26:31.479 It was a thing back in the day. 1:26:32.680 --> 1:26:35.320 And what we found, you're you're painting the whole picture, 1:26:35.439 --> 1:26:38.240 like the deer. You're kind of like you're you're sort 1:26:38.240 --> 1:26:40.400 of creating the entire encounter. 1:26:40.520 --> 1:26:43.599 You're trying to mimic reality. Yeah, where they're bumping into 1:26:43.600 --> 1:26:46.520 the brush and all that, sort of making it more realistic. 1:26:46.840 --> 1:26:50.760 But the bottom it was just very very clear, how 1:26:50.880 --> 1:26:55.200 loud you are. Number One, the louder you make it, 1:26:55.360 --> 1:26:58.720 you increase the probability that more bucks will hear it. 1:26:59.200 --> 1:27:02.200 More bucks will hear it when more bucks are circulating 1:27:02.320 --> 1:27:05.160 during the crepuscular period, more bucks are going to be 1:27:05.240 --> 1:27:09.960 up and about circulating during the pre rut. So make 1:27:10.000 --> 1:27:14.360 it as loud as you can. And the sequence that 1:27:14.400 --> 1:27:18.040 we were doing, we had a we had four different sequences, 1:27:18.120 --> 1:27:21.360 but the one that always worked the best was called 1:27:21.760 --> 1:27:26.040 long and Loud. I still remember it. It's still etched 1:27:26.080 --> 1:27:28.800 in here. Long and Loud was you got to go 1:27:28.920 --> 1:27:32.120 for three minutes. Three minutes. That doesn't sound like a 1:27:32.160 --> 1:27:36.559 lot with those things. As hard as you can possibly go. 1:27:36.720 --> 1:27:39.160 Your arms will be tired, they're spaghetti. Yeah, I mean 1:27:39.160 --> 1:27:42.840 you're you're just done by that. But that was the 1:27:42.880 --> 1:27:46.160 clear winter, and so just the obvious thing is they 1:27:46.160 --> 1:27:48.960 could hear it better. And so I and I even 1:27:49.040 --> 1:27:51.559 had chances where a sweat somebody on the ground. 1:27:52.120 --> 1:27:52.519 This was that. 1:27:52.760 --> 1:27:55.400 Do youn't know where the Welder Wildlife Refuge is? 1:27:55.439 --> 1:27:55.599 Aid? 1:27:55.640 --> 1:27:59.400 Did you go past it? Going south? Unhunted population tens 1:27:59.439 --> 1:28:02.360 of thousands of They have all these observation towers. So 1:28:02.360 --> 1:28:05.960 we got an observers up top fifteen twenty foot above 1:28:05.960 --> 1:28:09.679 the brush, and somebody down below, and you could literally 1:28:09.760 --> 1:28:13.559 even see I saw this to where the guy below 1:28:13.640 --> 1:28:16.320 starts rattling. He's doing a long and loud or something 1:28:16.400 --> 1:28:19.280 like that, and the buck is four hundred yards away, 1:28:19.680 --> 1:28:22.639 and he hears it and he starts coming, coming, coming, 1:28:22.680 --> 1:28:25.840 He's not running, but he's coming. He's obviously moving that way, 1:28:26.240 --> 1:28:32.320 stopped rattling. He was back to browsing around. And then 1:28:32.360 --> 1:28:34.320 it was over a thirty minute period, and so then 1:28:34.360 --> 1:28:36.439 we had an elapsed time and you do another rattle, 1:28:36.479 --> 1:28:39.400 and then another rattle, and do you rattle bring him in, 1:28:39.600 --> 1:28:44.160 keep coming, stop rattling. He stopped rattled him again, finally 1:28:44.479 --> 1:28:50.120 closed the distance and brought him in the volume and 1:28:50.280 --> 1:28:54.760 increasing the probability that a buck is within distance of 1:28:54.840 --> 1:28:57.280 hearing you. That was the secret sauce. 1:28:58.120 --> 1:29:00.680 I like your strategy, though, Steve, because as if I'm 1:29:00.720 --> 1:29:04.679 thinking about rattling, if it's donn or dusk, in my head, 1:29:04.760 --> 1:29:06.800 deer movement is already like a nine out of ten. 1:29:07.040 --> 1:29:09.559 I don't need to help the deer movement anymore right now. 1:29:09.800 --> 1:29:12.000 At midday, though, maybe it's like a four out of ten, 1:29:12.479 --> 1:29:13.960 and so I could rattle and bring it up to 1:29:13.960 --> 1:29:16.439 a seven out of ten. And so I'm just like 1:29:16.680 --> 1:29:19.840 I'm raising the floor of my hunt at that point. 1:29:20.040 --> 1:29:24.320 Yeah, we were not viewing it as making We were 1:29:24.360 --> 1:29:26.280 not viewing it as hey, there's nothing else to do. 1:29:27.120 --> 1:29:30.000 We're viewing it as going out in the morning. There's 1:29:30.040 --> 1:29:32.679 like deer round and you do a few rattle sessions, 1:29:32.800 --> 1:29:35.160 nothing happened, gets to be eleven am, and all of 1:29:35.160 --> 1:29:39.440 a sudden, buck buck buck. So I had this whole boredom. 1:29:39.560 --> 1:29:42.240 There you go, hypothesis, But it could be other factors 1:29:42.240 --> 1:29:42.880 in there. Well. 1:29:43.080 --> 1:29:46.000 Ask a question, what do your movement studies say about age? 1:29:46.040 --> 1:29:47.920 I assume it's just real simple that like a one 1:29:48.000 --> 1:29:50.360 and a half year old moves more and he's more 1:29:50.360 --> 1:29:52.120 reckless than a five and a half year old. Is 1:29:52.160 --> 1:29:53.240 that Is that what you've seen? 1:29:54.120 --> 1:29:57.559 Yeah, it's very subtle. You know. There's a lot of 1:29:57.680 --> 1:30:00.880 people will say, and maybe we didn't not have enough 1:30:01.160 --> 1:30:04.280 really really old bucks. We had several five and six 1:30:04.400 --> 1:30:09.000 year olds, but we saw a general decline, a general 1:30:09.400 --> 1:30:14.799 contraction in home range. But it was not overwhelming. Okay, 1:30:14.920 --> 1:30:18.200 but yes it did. You know after the yearling dispersal event, 1:30:18.320 --> 1:30:20.880 they're typically going to have a larger one and then 1:30:20.920 --> 1:30:23.599 it's like they keep figuring out, you know, year after 1:30:23.680 --> 1:30:24.920 year it gets a little bit small. 1:30:25.160 --> 1:30:29.280 Huh, I feel like hard oh Whitetail hunters will also 1:30:29.400 --> 1:30:32.639 say that you talked about how there's more movement after 1:30:32.680 --> 1:30:36.000 the peak of the rut, and usually those are the 1:30:36.000 --> 1:30:38.880 mature bucks. They're the wise ones who know that not 1:30:39.000 --> 1:30:41.040 every dough has been bred yet, so they're playing the 1:30:41.080 --> 1:30:42.680 long game. That's when they're going to get up and 1:30:43.640 --> 1:30:46.720 be a little more reckless. Is if you think the 1:30:46.880 --> 1:30:50.200 peak of the rut is like November fourteen, those old 1:30:50.240 --> 1:30:53.960 mature bucks, five six year olds, they are really participating 1:30:54.000 --> 1:30:56.880 in the rut more in that like fifteenth to twenty 1:30:56.920 --> 1:30:59.280 fifth time period than a two and a half year old? 1:30:59.320 --> 1:31:03.800 Is that? Is that like putting too much stock in 1:31:04.200 --> 1:31:04.919 those ideas. 1:31:05.280 --> 1:31:09.800 I think a buck is gonna participate whenever he can, huh, 1:31:09.800 --> 1:31:12.839 and whenever he detects there is a dough an estress, 1:31:13.040 --> 1:31:17.040 he's gonna participate. Okay, if that answers your question. 1:31:17.160 --> 1:31:19.000 Yeah, Like I said, a white tail hunter would say, 1:31:19.000 --> 1:31:20.519 that is the time period of the rut for the 1:31:20.560 --> 1:31:23.240 old bucks. That's like when they are vulnerable. 1:31:24.040 --> 1:31:27.439 Well, yeah, they would be exposed more during that time, 1:31:27.479 --> 1:31:29.479 but not more than a two and a half year old, 1:31:29.560 --> 1:31:31.479 is I wouldn't think? 1:31:31.479 --> 1:31:33.600 So? Okay, Yeah, I'm gonna go out of order and 1:31:33.600 --> 1:31:36.679 ask my next question. Then Yanni, and then Spencer. 1:31:37.560 --> 1:31:40.080 We have a couple left time. 1:31:40.120 --> 1:31:41.000 Why ask your question? 1:31:41.840 --> 1:31:43.240 I was afraid I don't forget you. 1:31:43.360 --> 1:31:45.120 No, go ahead, I won't forget mine because it's sitting 1:31:45.160 --> 1:31:45.680 right in front of me. 1:31:45.800 --> 1:31:49.720 How far away you think? How far away you think 1:31:49.760 --> 1:31:53.680 a buck can smell it a dough? That's an astress? 1:31:57.200 --> 1:32:01.240 Great question, I would say, Uh, I haven't said it 1:32:01.280 --> 1:32:04.320 depends yet, but I think it's going to depend so 1:32:04.439 --> 1:32:06.920 much on wind condition, you know, and. 1:32:06.920 --> 1:32:10.519 So wild ass like, like perfect conditions. 1:32:10.320 --> 1:32:11.439 Hundreds of yards? 1:32:12.640 --> 1:32:16.120 Are you asking about the doe herself or just the 1:32:16.160 --> 1:32:17.679 scent that maybe she left behind? 1:32:18.920 --> 1:32:24.000 Just detect the presence of a doe that's in heat. Yeah, 1:32:24.040 --> 1:32:26.799 in perfect conditions, it wouldn't be it wouldn't be crazy 1:32:26.840 --> 1:32:28.000 to say hundreds of yards. 1:32:28.680 --> 1:32:30.360 I don't think so, not at all. 1:32:30.960 --> 1:32:33.559 Yeah, their sense of smells that good. 1:32:34.080 --> 1:32:36.400 Yeah, yeah, I think so. I don't know if it's 1:32:36.439 --> 1:32:41.200 five hundred yards to me, I think about diffusion, and so, 1:32:41.240 --> 1:32:43.240 you know, the further and further you're getting away, the 1:32:43.280 --> 1:32:47.559 more those molecules are, you know, being distributed within the air, 1:32:47.600 --> 1:32:51.040 and can they pick up enough of a concentration to 1:32:51.080 --> 1:32:53.600 cause a response. But certainly hundreds. 1:32:53.200 --> 1:32:54.040 Of yards. 1:32:56.680 --> 1:32:58.960 Bronson, why did you bring that antler all the way 1:32:58.960 --> 1:33:00.479 from here? 1:33:01.360 --> 1:33:02.759 Yeah? 1:33:03.120 --> 1:33:05.880 And if you're just listening, you're just later gonna have 1:33:05.920 --> 1:33:07.880 to go to YouTube and watch to see what we're 1:33:07.920 --> 1:33:08.360 gonna tell you. 1:33:08.439 --> 1:33:10.280 He's got a big old he's got a big old 1:33:10.280 --> 1:33:13.200 buck antler. It's a Michigan tan with the browtie and 1:33:13.240 --> 1:33:17.080 saw it off's got one. He's got an a luinum contraption. 1:33:19.040 --> 1:33:21.439 He's got an a lunum contraption glued to the end 1:33:21.439 --> 1:33:21.680 of it. 1:33:21.840 --> 1:33:23.840 Squirrels have been chewing on the times. 1:33:24.520 --> 1:33:26.760 That was actually damage during velvet. 1:33:27.000 --> 1:33:28.800 Oh, I just thought. 1:33:31.040 --> 1:33:36.000 This is a this is an example from or this 1:33:36.080 --> 1:33:40.000 is a specimen from an experiment we did about ten 1:33:40.080 --> 1:33:44.120 years ago now. And the question was, let me, let 1:33:44.120 --> 1:33:46.160 me back up. We always at Mississippi State with the 1:33:46.200 --> 1:33:48.720 Deer Lab, we tried to do every single thing we 1:33:48.800 --> 1:33:52.000 do has a purpose for the end user. It's gonna 1:33:52.000 --> 1:33:54.519 affect hunting, it's going to affect management, help you manage 1:33:54.560 --> 1:33:58.000 your property. Except this. This has nothing to do at 1:33:58.000 --> 1:34:01.519 all with man. This is straight up deer biology. Me 1:34:01.760 --> 1:34:06.200 and Steve Demris, the other co director of the Deer Lab, 1:34:06.280 --> 1:34:08.519 we have this debate going on for years and years 1:34:08.920 --> 1:34:14.599 about female choice. Do female white tailed deer can they 1:34:14.680 --> 1:34:19.600 do they have any type of choice whatsoever? Now? Behaviorally, 1:34:20.439 --> 1:34:22.439 we don't know if she does, because when she comes 1:34:22.439 --> 1:34:26.080 into standing heat, she's she's going to breed, you know, 1:34:26.120 --> 1:34:28.120 if there is a If she's in standing heat and 1:34:28.240 --> 1:34:30.519 a buck is behind her, she's gonna breed. 1:34:30.479 --> 1:34:34.720 Doesn't matter if it's a spiky or no big old 1:34:34.800 --> 1:34:35.439 rope dragger. 1:34:35.640 --> 1:34:39.080 So I think she has to assume whom I guess 1:34:39.160 --> 1:34:41.920 that's the right word, assume that that's going to sort 1:34:42.040 --> 1:34:47.160 itself out, that that hopefully, through a dominance hierarchy, she's 1:34:47.240 --> 1:34:50.960 getting the better buck. But during the peak of the rut, 1:34:51.000 --> 1:34:53.280 that may not always be the case because the quote 1:34:53.320 --> 1:34:56.000 dominant older buck, he may be occupied on a you know, 1:34:56.080 --> 1:34:58.720 way over here with another though, you know, And we 1:34:58.760 --> 1:35:05.360 see multi paternity, and so in twenty five percent of doze, 1:35:06.280 --> 1:35:09.519 the twin faunds, twenty five percent of those will have 1:35:09.520 --> 1:35:13.759 two different fathers, got it, So it's going on multiple 1:35:13.800 --> 1:35:17.800 bucks of breeding. So I had just always thought that 1:35:18.680 --> 1:35:22.559 she has to care. She has to care. Now whether 1:35:22.600 --> 1:35:24.120 she can do anything about it or not, it's a 1:35:24.120 --> 1:35:26.920 different question, but she has to care that if what 1:35:27.080 --> 1:35:29.439 is behind me and about to breed me, is it 1:35:29.479 --> 1:35:32.280 a year old spike or would it be a three, 1:35:32.400 --> 1:35:35.160 four or five year old with larger antlers and a 1:35:35.160 --> 1:35:39.720 big body who has clearly demonstrated I'm a survivor. I 1:35:39.760 --> 1:35:42.720 can make it. You know, she's got all the investment, 1:35:42.760 --> 1:35:44.840 she's going to have the gestation for seven months, is 1:35:44.880 --> 1:35:48.280 all her resources. She ought to care who's behind hers? Like, well, 1:35:48.360 --> 1:35:50.720 how do we do this? So we ended up we 1:35:50.760 --> 1:35:53.760 had another project going on and we had a way 1:35:53.840 --> 1:35:56.760 we could set this up. So we took all of 1:35:56.800 --> 1:35:59.680 our bucks and we standardized them. We came up with 1:35:59.760 --> 1:36:03.479 p We paired them by age. We paired them by 1:36:03.560 --> 1:36:08.160 body size, so a doe looking at a buck couldn't say, well, 1:36:08.200 --> 1:36:10.920 that buck is clearly four year four years old, that 1:36:10.960 --> 1:36:14.160 one is clearly a yearling and choose one of them. 1:36:14.320 --> 1:36:14.519 Yep. 1:36:15.720 --> 1:36:18.760 So we standardized by body size and age. And then 1:36:18.800 --> 1:36:21.759 we got with our egg engineering people and we developed 1:36:21.760 --> 1:36:26.640 a contraption to where we could manipulate antlers. 1:36:26.200 --> 1:36:28.160 Could make him look like a toad even when he wasn't. 1:36:28.200 --> 1:36:32.360 That's exactly right. So we challenged these does with. 1:36:32.640 --> 1:36:34.400 Well, hold on, you gotta explain how you did that. 1:36:35.360 --> 1:36:38.000 Take a little spike and put that antler on his ass. 1:36:39.560 --> 1:36:40.559 Yeah he's alive. 1:36:41.200 --> 1:36:43.760 Yeah, Well we sedate him. Yeah we sedatum. 1:36:43.880 --> 1:36:44.080 Yeah. 1:36:44.720 --> 1:36:51.120 Looking so they all had the base part somehow attached 1:36:51.120 --> 1:36:51.679 to their. 1:36:51.880 --> 1:36:55.120 Pedical Yeah yeah, So all the all the bucks that 1:36:55.120 --> 1:36:57.680 are they're in the study. They're going to be sedated 1:36:58.040 --> 1:37:00.799 and then we're gonna cut their antlers off. We're gonna 1:37:01.080 --> 1:37:04.519 fix that part, the coupling, a fix to the antler 1:37:04.920 --> 1:37:07.200 and then the pedicle. They're going to get a receiver 1:37:07.840 --> 1:37:12.800 coupling there, and so this is incredible, and so then 1:37:13.320 --> 1:37:15.839 we will challenge a dough. So then we had someone 1:37:15.920 --> 1:37:21.439 from that school reproductive physiologist. They can induce estress, you know, 1:37:21.479 --> 1:37:24.080 with the progesterone treatment or something. So now we know 1:37:24.120 --> 1:37:26.920 where that dough is coming into heat. And so now 1:37:26.960 --> 1:37:30.200 she's behaviorally, she's demonstrating that she's an estress. So we 1:37:30.280 --> 1:37:32.920 send her down an alleyway and she's got a pen, 1:37:33.400 --> 1:37:35.519 and then to her left and her to her right 1:37:35.680 --> 1:37:41.880 are too equally aged or equally body sized bucks. One 1:37:41.920 --> 1:37:43.880 of them is carrying a one sixty, one of them 1:37:43.920 --> 1:37:48.360 is carrying a ninety, and then we monitored her behavior 1:37:48.520 --> 1:37:52.080 to see which one she would prefer. Now, we could 1:37:52.080 --> 1:37:54.680 not allow them to breed just the way it was 1:37:54.720 --> 1:37:57.280 set up the logistics, but then we looked at all 1:37:57.400 --> 1:38:01.120 the behavioral signs of if we pull the fence up, 1:38:01.439 --> 1:38:04.559 which which one would she go to? And it was 1:38:04.680 --> 1:38:08.880 over eighty percent of the time she always went for 1:38:09.520 --> 1:38:12.800 the antlers. Wow, even a younger official. 1:38:12.479 --> 1:38:16.559 Dude, good for her, superficial man, hey man, But there's 1:38:16.560 --> 1:38:21.760 that twenty interest in personality, it's like totally suficial. 1:38:21.840 --> 1:38:24.000 But it wasn't one hundred percent. It was you know, 1:38:24.160 --> 1:38:26.599 twenty percent didn't fall for the for the big antlers. 1:38:27.000 --> 1:38:30.160 So there's some selection going on. Well, but but like 1:38:30.200 --> 1:38:33.559 you're saying whether or not it, I get what you're saying, 1:38:33.720 --> 1:38:36.759 Like in that environment, there's selection going on. But however 1:38:36.800 --> 1:38:38.880 that's occurring in the real world scenario, it. 1:38:38.880 --> 1:38:43.200 Is hard to determine exactly right, Yeah, can that even happen? 1:38:43.280 --> 1:38:45.000 You know? The only the only thing we can say 1:38:45.000 --> 1:38:47.439 in the wild of does she have any choice at all? 1:38:47.640 --> 1:38:51.240 Is when she since the sensing she's coming into estras, 1:38:51.600 --> 1:38:55.160 might she go to an area where she knows this 1:38:55.439 --> 1:38:59.280 knows this guy occupies and just make herself available. Yeah, 1:38:59.320 --> 1:39:02.439 but yeah, she can't be very proactive in this thing. 1:39:02.680 --> 1:39:05.280 But when you standardize all that and controlled for it, 1:39:06.080 --> 1:39:11.040 that's what she preferred. So it does follow the ecological 1:39:11.120 --> 1:39:14.639 theory about antlers or an honest signal of quality. 1:39:14.760 --> 1:39:16.519 Yeah, yeah, I think I've wondered. 1:39:18.280 --> 1:39:20.560 I'm especially thinking about this as you're explaining this is 1:39:20.600 --> 1:39:23.160 when you're watching a buck work a group of does 1:39:24.400 --> 1:39:27.519 and you see like he's particularly interested, like he sort 1:39:27.560 --> 1:39:30.160 of singled out a dough. He's very interested in his dough. 1:39:30.200 --> 1:39:32.599 He's singled out. But you see her every time he approaches. 1:39:32.640 --> 1:39:33.080 She runs. 1:39:33.120 --> 1:39:35.200 Every time he approaches, she runs, And you. 1:39:35.240 --> 1:39:38.599 Wonder, like, well, if it was a different buck, would 1:39:38.640 --> 1:39:41.360 she run every time? Like? Is she running because she's 1:39:41.400 --> 1:39:43.200 just not ready? Or is she running because she doesn't? 1:39:43.320 --> 1:39:47.080 Like she doesn't want that buck buyer? Because from whatever 1:39:47.120 --> 1:39:50.160 in his perspective, there's something very particular. 1:39:49.600 --> 1:39:50.880 About that dough. 1:39:50.960 --> 1:39:54.880 He's like hounding that dough, so he knows something's going on. 1:39:55.120 --> 1:39:56.280 But she's not receptive. 1:39:58.439 --> 1:40:02.160 I just don't think she's ready. She's just not She's close. 1:40:02.360 --> 1:40:06.000 Yeah, he knows she's close, but she's not that ready yet, right, yeh, 1:40:06.280 --> 1:40:08.240 got it? So she might not be making like a 1:40:08.360 --> 1:40:11.479 not you not you wait, I'm waiting for Dave or whatever. 1:40:11.960 --> 1:40:16.759 Yeah, I think she's just waiting to be receptive. Physiologically, yeah. 1:40:18.160 --> 1:40:18.240 Uh. 1:40:18.360 --> 1:40:22.240 There's a theory among whitetail hunters that if you have 1:40:22.439 --> 1:40:24.519 an old dominant buck, like a six and a half 1:40:24.640 --> 1:40:28.519 year old, when he gets killed, you've now created a 1:40:28.600 --> 1:40:32.280 vacuum where there's an opportunity for another big, mature buck 1:40:32.320 --> 1:40:34.960 to come in and take that home range and own 1:40:35.000 --> 1:40:37.719 that food source, own that betting area, own those doughs. 1:40:38.120 --> 1:40:40.400 Do you ever see that with your movement studies, that 1:40:40.479 --> 1:40:43.599 a big buck disappears until a new big buck moves in. 1:40:44.760 --> 1:40:49.160 No, I'm really interested in that. I do think that 1:40:49.240 --> 1:40:52.439 has a lot of logic and appeal, and I want 1:40:52.520 --> 1:40:55.920 that to happen because I think that's something as managers 1:40:55.920 --> 1:40:59.880 we can manipulate doing that, removing particular bucks and creating 1:41:00.000 --> 1:41:03.000 space for others to move in. Uh, we did not 1:41:03.240 --> 1:41:06.080 have enough data. Well, first of all, we didn't want 1:41:06.080 --> 1:41:11.320 to shoot all of our mature bucks. But to my knowledge, 1:41:11.360 --> 1:41:14.800 there's been no good experiment to demonstrate that. But but 1:41:14.920 --> 1:41:17.640 I would love to try it if we could. I 1:41:17.920 --> 1:41:19.040 do think it's logical. 1:41:20.479 --> 1:41:22.759 Yeah, some little bucks like now's my time to shine? 1:41:22.840 --> 1:41:27.680 Yeah? Yeah, Yeah, that's the best cornfield in the neighborhood. 1:41:28.360 --> 1:41:29.439 Does all beding here? 1:41:30.640 --> 1:41:33.400 Have you ever heard that bucks avoid certain kinds of 1:41:33.400 --> 1:41:36.360 cover when they're in velvet and they're more comfortable going 1:41:36.400 --> 1:41:38.200 into that cover once their antlers are hard? 1:41:38.640 --> 1:41:38.800 No? 1:41:40.479 --> 1:41:42.240 You you never heard that with elk and stuff like 1:41:42.280 --> 1:41:42.720 that too. 1:41:43.320 --> 1:41:47.240 Well, I don't think a lot about elk, but I'm 1:41:47.280 --> 1:41:50.840 biased with my time in South Texas and so man 1:41:51.200 --> 1:41:53.840 thorny up in that helicopter. I say, a lot of 1:41:53.920 --> 1:41:57.360 bucks and velvet going through. Yeah, the pair and the 1:41:57.439 --> 1:41:58.800 mesquite and got it. 1:41:59.160 --> 1:42:00.920 That's really a good testing ground. 1:42:01.000 --> 1:42:03.320 Yeah. Yeah, there's a price to pay for going through 1:42:03.360 --> 1:42:05.000 that mesquite. 1:42:04.680 --> 1:42:07.439 And the awareness that they have, you know, when you're 1:42:07.560 --> 1:42:09.840 you're pushing them with the helicopter and and there's a 1:42:09.840 --> 1:42:12.720 big mesquite branch coming up, and they know how to 1:42:12.760 --> 1:42:15.320 tilt their head just enough to get their antlers under it. 1:42:15.360 --> 1:42:19.719 And it's a thing of beauty to watch moose question. 1:42:21.040 --> 1:42:22.080 I mean, you can ask. 1:42:21.960 --> 1:42:26.800 If you're maybe there's a deer parallel. You're calling. You're 1:42:26.800 --> 1:42:29.400 calling to a moose. You're making cow calls to a moose. 1:42:30.000 --> 1:42:33.320 And then he comes from a mile away and he 1:42:33.360 --> 1:42:38.080 gets up, he comes just b line stops, his head's 1:42:38.120 --> 1:42:39.680 pointing towards you. 1:42:39.680 --> 1:42:41.360 You call, he comes, you call, he comes. 1:42:41.360 --> 1:42:45.080 He gets five hundred yards away and lays down, lays 1:42:45.120 --> 1:42:47.080 down for an hour, gets up, walks the other direction. 1:42:48.960 --> 1:42:50.160 Dawn's in his head. 1:42:50.720 --> 1:42:56.120 You were supposed to come to him. 1:42:54.040 --> 1:42:54.439 You think so? 1:42:55.160 --> 1:42:55.759 Was there. 1:42:57.439 --> 1:42:59.840 Was the wind in his face? No, there's no wind. 1:43:00.080 --> 1:43:02.960 Isn't a human thing it wasn't a human thing. Wind's 1:43:03.000 --> 1:43:08.719 totally wrong. He hadn't seen nothing. Yeah. 1:43:08.840 --> 1:43:12.320 My My only guess was there was no there was 1:43:12.360 --> 1:43:16.120 no visual queue to stimulate him coming any further. 1:43:16.479 --> 1:43:19.240 That would make sense because he's like, I'm looking at 1:43:19.240 --> 1:43:23.280 the whole hill, dude, there's nothing there. I'll cow standing there. 1:43:23.880 --> 1:43:26.439 Yeah you know that. Yeah. 1:43:26.960 --> 1:43:28.519 He's like at some points, like at some point I 1:43:28.520 --> 1:43:29.160 need to see. 1:43:28.960 --> 1:43:31.080 The cow, so you need a cow decoy. 1:43:32.280 --> 1:43:34.120 I've seen this sap two times in the same place, 1:43:34.479 --> 1:43:36.600 comes all that way, and it's lays down staring and 1:43:36.640 --> 1:43:37.479 gets up and leaves. 1:43:39.439 --> 1:43:40.920 Sounds like you've gotta be able to shoot at five 1:43:41.000 --> 1:43:42.160 hundred yards next time. 1:43:42.280 --> 1:43:45.719 We did one time got him, but it's it's thick 1:43:45.800 --> 1:43:46.920 and yeah, it's hard. 1:43:50.439 --> 1:43:52.200 If we have time, I could lay out the shirt 1:43:52.280 --> 1:43:53.000 or buck, but I know. 1:43:52.960 --> 1:43:55.080 We're a shirt. Yeah. 1:43:55.160 --> 1:43:56.200 He's big believer in us. 1:43:56.560 --> 1:44:02.639 That's not true. But I did re Valgeist a couple 1:44:02.680 --> 1:44:07.439 of his books, and he observed watching mule deer he 1:44:07.640 --> 1:44:13.920 felt he observed, yeah, that there were bucks that he 1:44:13.960 --> 1:44:18.880 would watch that would shirk the responsibility of breeding for 1:44:19.080 --> 1:44:21.920 many seasons in a row, and then all of a 1:44:21.960 --> 1:44:26.439 sudden year five year six come in there and because 1:44:26.479 --> 1:44:29.840 they had reserved all those resources for that many years 1:44:29.880 --> 1:44:33.840 and built up an extra whatever amount of body weight, 1:44:33.880 --> 1:44:36.719 bigger antlers or whatever, then they could come in. 1:44:36.800 --> 1:44:39.920 And rule the roost, just lay waste. 1:44:40.280 --> 1:44:44.080 That's one way to put it. Yeah, did you ever 1:44:44.120 --> 1:44:47.640 see that in your captive heard where the bucks would shirk. 1:44:48.720 --> 1:44:52.439 Not at that that scale. But so he valarious guys 1:44:52.520 --> 1:44:57.080 is talking about a multi year right, what we would 1:44:57.160 --> 1:45:00.360 see which we attributed to, but we don't know this, 1:45:00.479 --> 1:45:05.800 you know, buck personality in this case hormonally higher testosterone 1:45:05.840 --> 1:45:10.080 levels or something. But there were definitely some bucks that 1:45:10.160 --> 1:45:14.080 at the beginning of the rut they were absolute mad men. 1:45:14.720 --> 1:45:17.080 I mean, they wanted to fight. Everybody hated them. The 1:45:17.120 --> 1:45:19.200 dos hated them, other bucks hated them. They just want 1:45:19.240 --> 1:45:23.960 to fight, fight, fight, And their breeding success was always 1:45:24.120 --> 1:45:29.400 greater the first path and maybe even longer into the 1:45:29.400 --> 1:45:32.799 breeding season. So you know, we were able to enumerate 1:45:32.840 --> 1:45:34.639 how many fawns you know that they sired. 1:45:35.040 --> 1:45:37.519 He's a fighter, he's a fighter, and he does good 1:45:37.800 --> 1:45:39.080 in the beginning of the breeding season. 1:45:39.200 --> 1:45:42.519 Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah yeah, and then his body condition, 1:45:42.920 --> 1:45:46.760 all of that fighting begins to take its toll on him. 1:45:46.960 --> 1:45:49.439 Now keep in mind too, these are captive deer. They 1:45:49.439 --> 1:45:53.479 got ad lib food, So I mean he's avoiding eating. 1:45:53.960 --> 1:45:57.519 He is so consumed and obsessed with fighting and breeding. 1:45:57.960 --> 1:46:01.000 But when you get a month, six weeks whatever into it, 1:46:01.200 --> 1:46:04.519 his body condition begins to suffer. And now he starts 1:46:04.600 --> 1:46:08.200 getting his butt kicked by the more passive deer who 1:46:08.280 --> 1:46:10.760 now weighed even though they're the same age, even though 1:46:10.760 --> 1:46:14.000 they weigh twenty pounds more. Those guys may be the shirkers. 1:46:14.280 --> 1:46:17.000 Then they have higher breeding success later in the year. 1:46:17.720 --> 1:46:20.760 So we kind of saw that, but compressed within year. 1:46:23.920 --> 1:46:27.760 It's super interesting. But it's different than the idea that well, 1:46:27.760 --> 1:46:29.720 we told this the one deer biologist. I'm sure you're 1:46:29.720 --> 1:46:31.720 familiar with Jim half a finger. Oh yeah, yeah, So 1:46:31.760 --> 1:46:34.000 we told this the one deer biologist, and he felt 1:46:34.040 --> 1:46:37.640 that it was just like he felt, it was a 1:46:37.760 --> 1:46:42.880 very questionable approach from an evolutionary standpoint, to be that, like, 1:46:43.000 --> 1:46:48.439 you're alive now, you're sexually mature now, to put off 1:46:48.600 --> 1:46:52.559 breeding opportunity after breeding opportunity after breeding opportunity in order 1:46:52.600 --> 1:46:56.120 to really kick ass some year down the road just 1:46:56.120 --> 1:46:59.479 didn't make sense. Risky, Yeah, like, you know, it just 1:46:59.479 --> 1:47:02.719 didn't make sense as a way to really to to 1:47:02.960 --> 1:47:06.800 put more progeny on the landscape that your banking that. Well, 1:47:07.520 --> 1:47:09.800 I'm gonna have a hell of a year when I'm five. Yeah, 1:47:09.840 --> 1:47:12.320 and I'm taking off two, three and four. 1:47:12.720 --> 1:47:14.320 Yeah, I agree with that. 1:47:14.439 --> 1:47:22.240 Yeah, what are the the guest reasons for this? I mean, 1:47:22.280 --> 1:47:26.599 it's it's not I don't believe it's like a buck 1:47:26.720 --> 1:47:29.920 makes a conscious choice to do this. So, like, what 1:47:30.080 --> 1:47:35.120 would be the biological underpinnings if this were a thing. 1:47:36.000 --> 1:47:40.320 Yeah, my well, I don't remember what hilarious geist all 1:47:40.360 --> 1:47:43.160 of his reasoning, But I'm I'm trying to think about 1:47:43.320 --> 1:47:45.599 a mechanism of how that could work. 1:47:45.760 --> 1:47:48.360 And like onset of hormones and things. 1:47:48.160 --> 1:47:55.439 Are happening differing testosterone levels, and whereas the example I 1:47:55.560 --> 1:47:59.559 was giving with our data, I think it's within season, 1:48:00.160 --> 1:48:05.080 different timing in the surging of testosterone. But there's some 1:48:05.120 --> 1:48:08.120 great research out of Auburn University showing that there's a 1:48:08.240 --> 1:48:12.439 lot of variation by age class, and so it could 1:48:12.439 --> 1:48:14.720 be that those younger Bucks, and then there's gonna be 1:48:14.800 --> 1:48:17.360 variation within an age class where some have born, some 1:48:17.400 --> 1:48:19.280 have less, and so some of them, they just don't 1:48:19.320 --> 1:48:21.080 have a lot of testosterone. When they're two or three 1:48:21.160 --> 1:48:26.920 years of age. They're looking at this particular older, dominant, bigger, antlered, 1:48:26.920 --> 1:48:31.400 bigger bodied buck and maybe it's a survival strategy. Man, 1:48:31.439 --> 1:48:35.000 I'm not gonna risk it. But then later in life 1:48:35.160 --> 1:48:39.439 greater surgeon testosterone and they risk it and go for it. 1:48:40.520 --> 1:48:41.719 What do you wind up seeing? 1:48:43.360 --> 1:48:45.200 If you think of an old buck that gets a 1:48:45.240 --> 1:48:49.200 reputation with hunters as being like, he's so stealthy, he's shy, 1:48:49.520 --> 1:48:51.799 he's sly, right. 1:48:55.160 --> 1:48:58.400 That that's got to be real, right, But what is that? 1:48:58.479 --> 1:48:58.760 What is it? 1:48:58.840 --> 1:49:00.240 What do you think he's doing? 1:49:00.360 --> 1:49:02.880 What is he not doing? You know? 1:49:03.080 --> 1:49:04.840 When he gets to be that they just seem like 1:49:05.280 --> 1:49:06.160 they vanish. 1:49:06.439 --> 1:49:10.320 Yeah, right, And and to me that that's a really 1:49:10.320 --> 1:49:13.519 good question of ways you have to think about it. 1:49:14.200 --> 1:49:19.439 So is it that that buck has always been that 1:49:19.600 --> 1:49:24.040 way and the ones that were dumber were killed? So 1:49:24.200 --> 1:49:25.840 selection that's great going on? 1:49:25.960 --> 1:49:27.000 Yeah? 1:49:27.160 --> 1:49:31.679 Or are they literally learning and modifying their behavior over time? 1:49:32.680 --> 1:49:35.479 Like I love, I love what you're saying. I would 1:49:35.520 --> 1:49:37.880 have when I approached the question. I was approaching that 1:49:37.920 --> 1:49:40.599 he learned it, yeah, not that he's just always been paranoid. 1:49:40.800 --> 1:49:44.160 Yeah, it's probably a little bit of both as well, 1:49:44.360 --> 1:49:49.160 would be my guess. Yeah, so what what are they 1:49:49.200 --> 1:49:52.840 doing different? I think it's probably just being more perceptive 1:49:52.960 --> 1:49:57.280 and maybe being more slow in how they process what's 1:49:57.320 --> 1:49:59.639 going on. They're not as much of a risk taker, 1:50:00.479 --> 1:50:02.600 and so they're playing for the long game of like 1:50:03.400 --> 1:50:05.960 I might not breed as many doves within a year, 1:50:06.080 --> 1:50:10.479 but lifetime reproductive success I may win. Yeah, things like that. 1:50:10.960 --> 1:50:16.400 Yeah, there seems like there's some learn stuff like looking 1:50:16.479 --> 1:50:20.080 up in trees, you know what I mean, like learning 1:50:20.160 --> 1:50:22.479 like in certain areas. He's just like looking up, looking up, 1:50:22.520 --> 1:50:27.639 looking up, like because he's seen before, yeah, trees. Yeah, 1:50:27.680 --> 1:50:30.479 and like the coming out of the box, like a 1:50:30.640 --> 1:50:32.840 year and a half old buck probably hasn't figured out 1:50:32.920 --> 1:50:36.519 yet to like yeah look up. Yeah you know. 1:50:37.560 --> 1:50:40.840 Yeah, and so does that yearling buck have to live 1:50:40.960 --> 1:50:45.559 through a bad experience and then he's able to he's 1:50:45.600 --> 1:50:47.439 going to be looking from this point forward. 1:50:47.560 --> 1:50:50.959 Yeah, or a yearling bucks that are just so paranoid 1:50:50.960 --> 1:50:52.480 they're looking all around, And. 1:50:52.240 --> 1:50:54.760 It's good they learn it from their five year old mother. 1:50:55.720 --> 1:50:56.439 I think they do. 1:50:56.680 --> 1:51:00.400 Oh that's a good point too. Yeah, she's like the 1:51:00.439 --> 1:51:04.200 big cherry tree at the point, the point that juts 1:51:04.200 --> 1:51:05.040 out between the fields. 1:51:05.080 --> 1:51:06.360 Don't go by that cherry tree. 1:51:06.400 --> 1:51:09.400 You know. The other thing is specific cherry tree I 1:51:09.400 --> 1:51:12.559 grew up by with the deer dude, like the Ranella's 1:51:12.680 --> 1:51:13.759 are always in that tree. 1:51:15.040 --> 1:51:18.559 There's less of those bucks on the landscape too, so 1:51:18.600 --> 1:51:22.559 we just we have this perception that we see them less. 1:51:22.640 --> 1:51:25.400 So there's sneakier though, but it's just like a numbers 1:51:25.439 --> 1:51:27.920 game where you're just gonna see less of those bucks, 1:51:28.200 --> 1:51:29.880 even if they're moving just as much as the two 1:51:29.960 --> 1:51:33.320 year olds, because there's I don't know where percentage is 1:51:33.360 --> 1:51:37.200 in most populations, but yeah, much less. 1:51:37.800 --> 1:51:42.800 Yeah, all depends on punting rate and mortality. But but yeah, 1:51:42.880 --> 1:51:46.200 that's gonna be uh yeah. I mean even in a 1:51:46.439 --> 1:51:50.000 well managed population, less than twenty five percent of the 1:51:50.040 --> 1:51:54.000 bucks are going to be something like that. And that's 1:51:54.040 --> 1:51:56.040 just based on age. And then when you start adding 1:51:56.040 --> 1:51:58.799 in antler size, it's gonna be less than ten percent 1:51:58.920 --> 1:52:01.519 are gonna resemble something like that. So they're very rare. 1:52:03.240 --> 1:52:05.400 In twenty fifteen, I tried very hard to kill a 1:52:05.439 --> 1:52:07.400 cactus buck. And if you're listening, you don't know what 1:52:07.400 --> 1:52:09.200 that is. It's A cactus buck is a buck who 1:52:09.240 --> 1:52:12.160 does not shut his velvet, and sometimes he will grow 1:52:12.320 --> 1:52:14.439 a unique rack as a result of that. It could 1:52:14.479 --> 1:52:17.840 be a testosterone problem that his testicles never dropped. It 1:52:17.840 --> 1:52:20.519 could be that he was crossing a fence and ripped 1:52:20.520 --> 1:52:24.120 his sack open one time. And that cactus buck was 1:52:24.240 --> 1:52:26.160 very hard to kill because it seemed as though he 1:52:26.160 --> 1:52:28.880 didn't participate in the rut. He just like didn't loosen 1:52:29.000 --> 1:52:32.439 up and become reckless like the other bucks would. Have 1:52:32.520 --> 1:52:35.080 you ever looked at the movement of a cactus buck? 1:52:35.640 --> 1:52:36.200 Have not? 1:52:36.760 --> 1:52:37.120 Have not? 1:52:37.360 --> 1:52:40.880 We've never, I guess been lucky enough to have a 1:52:40.920 --> 1:52:45.960 collar on one, but a property that a hunt has one. 1:52:46.360 --> 1:52:50.360 Right now, He just got pictures from a puny buddy 1:52:50.360 --> 1:52:53.040 about a week ago that the cactus buck is back. 1:52:53.120 --> 1:52:55.080 So see there last year, It was there last year. 1:52:55.120 --> 1:52:56.479 What did you notice him due last year? 1:52:57.280 --> 1:52:57.519 He? 1:52:57.720 --> 1:52:59.519 Uh, he hung out with the doze. 1:52:59.680 --> 1:53:00.600 Yeah. 1:53:00.680 --> 1:53:02.519 Yeah, they just like don't participate in the room. 1:53:02.560 --> 1:53:05.280 Nope, not at all. 1:53:05.720 --> 1:53:06.200 Uh. 1:53:07.080 --> 1:53:12.760 The deer writer Pat Durkin, he had an observation where 1:53:12.760 --> 1:53:15.600 he when he was the editor Deer and Deer Hunting magazine, 1:53:15.800 --> 1:53:21.200 he profiled a great many big buck killers okay, and 1:53:21.240 --> 1:53:25.920 he had come to this kind of realization after a while. 1:53:25.960 --> 1:53:30.040 There's a lot of amazing big buck killers. They couldn't 1:53:30.040 --> 1:53:31.880 tell you what kind of tree their tree stands hanging in, 1:53:32.680 --> 1:53:36.280 meaning it's just like it's not like a wood's there's 1:53:36.320 --> 1:53:38.559 a point at which it's not like a woodsmanship thing. 1:53:38.760 --> 1:53:41.439 It's like they're just good at killing box. They're not 1:53:41.680 --> 1:53:47.920 generalist woodsmen. You know, do you ever feel like your research, 1:53:49.960 --> 1:53:53.880 like in real on the ground application as a deer hunter, 1:53:53.960 --> 1:53:56.920 does your research guide your activities or is like deer 1:53:57.040 --> 1:54:01.640 hunting is just deer hunting and it doesn't matter what 1:54:01.680 --> 1:54:03.920 you know to be true from all your projects. 1:54:04.280 --> 1:54:11.040 Yeah, yes, it does guides. Yeah, And a lot of 1:54:11.040 --> 1:54:15.240 that is about hunting pressure and thinking about and you know, 1:54:15.320 --> 1:54:18.640 this doesn't work everywhere in the US. In the southeast, 1:54:18.720 --> 1:54:20.640 you know a lot a lot of stand hunting, a 1:54:20.640 --> 1:54:23.800 lot of permanent stand hunting and so forth, and and 1:54:24.000 --> 1:54:27.919 just recognizing that deer know when you're on the property 1:54:28.479 --> 1:54:32.600 and it's and it's not gunshots, it's it's you being there, 1:54:32.840 --> 1:54:37.080 you being on an ATV. It's the smells, the sounds, 1:54:37.120 --> 1:54:40.760 all that they they know when you're there. And one 1:54:40.800 --> 1:54:43.800 thing that has really changed when we try to really 1:54:43.840 --> 1:54:49.240 advise now is when when you hunt, if you're going 1:54:49.280 --> 1:54:52.480 to hunt a particular stand, particular area, only go on 1:54:52.560 --> 1:54:56.000 the days where you're going to minimize the opportunity of 1:54:56.080 --> 1:54:59.760 bumping deer, because we know the research I talked about earlier. 1:55:00.080 --> 1:55:02.919 After a couple days and deer know you're on the property, 1:55:03.360 --> 1:55:07.120 they're going to start behaving differently. So doing whatever you 1:55:07.160 --> 1:55:11.440 can to minimize your footprint, so to speak, on the property. 1:55:12.120 --> 1:55:15.760 That's probably one of the biggest things. And then some 1:55:15.880 --> 1:55:20.600 really boring stuff that people roll their eyes about. But 1:55:21.080 --> 1:55:26.080 in terms of antler quality, herd condition, things like that density, 1:55:26.800 --> 1:55:31.400 deer density, dough harvest, stuff like that. I know how 1:55:31.440 --> 1:55:34.840 critically important that is. And people are trying to figure 1:55:34.840 --> 1:55:36.880 out what the heck's going on with our deer. The 1:55:36.960 --> 1:55:39.320 quality of the deer is down, we're doing all this, 1:55:39.440 --> 1:55:41.440 that and the other. You just got too many deer. 1:55:42.120 --> 1:55:45.120 You just have too many mouths relative to the amount 1:55:45.160 --> 1:55:49.080 of range that you have in the food supply. So 1:55:49.840 --> 1:55:51.680 pretty mundane. But stuff like that. 1:55:51.840 --> 1:55:56.840 Yeah, well, I could definitely picture management information, But just 1:55:56.920 --> 1:55:59.880 like how you go about where you're putting your stand, 1:56:00.080 --> 1:56:02.240 when you're out there what you're doing with the wind, 1:56:02.720 --> 1:56:04.920 But I could see with the stuff, with the research 1:56:04.960 --> 1:56:08.400 you've done around how they handle pressure, you might look 1:56:08.440 --> 1:56:11.360 at a place, look what everybody's up to, and then 1:56:11.560 --> 1:56:13.560 based on what you've seen, be like I think when 1:56:13.600 --> 1:56:15.320 the pressure hits, I think you're going to see more 1:56:15.320 --> 1:56:17.080 of this, You're gonna see less of that, and that 1:56:17.160 --> 1:56:18.240 might guide your movements. 1:56:18.560 --> 1:56:21.440 Yeah, what I do all the time. So, yeah, what 1:56:21.480 --> 1:56:24.400 we talked about approach, try to minimize your disturbance of 1:56:24.440 --> 1:56:29.000 the deer. I think about during the rut, I think 1:56:29.040 --> 1:56:33.680 about where are those dough focal groups on the landscape. 1:56:34.200 --> 1:56:37.320 What are going to be the movement or cover corridors 1:56:37.680 --> 1:56:41.440 that might link those areas up and so it won't 1:56:41.440 --> 1:56:44.040 be hunting on food. It's going to be hunting on 1:56:44.120 --> 1:56:47.480 a corridor. And then finally when you get to the 1:56:47.520 --> 1:56:50.720 post rut, I'm focusing on food. So the evidence is 1:56:50.800 --> 1:56:54.080 really really clear with that. When you get a month 1:56:54.200 --> 1:56:56.600 past the peak of the rut, they got to recover 1:56:56.680 --> 1:56:59.640 that twenty percent of their body weight. They're hungry, and 1:56:59.720 --> 1:57:01.720 food plots in my neck of the woods us a 1:57:01.760 --> 1:57:02.680 great place to haunt. 1:57:03.240 --> 1:57:07.960 M think, well, that spencer Newhart. 1:57:08.600 --> 1:57:10.120 Can I make two study requests? 1:57:10.720 --> 1:57:13.080 Absolutely well, okay one of them. 1:57:13.360 --> 1:57:15.760 I haunt a lot of places in the West where 1:57:16.080 --> 1:57:20.920 whitetail habitat and mule deer habitat overlap, but I never 1:57:20.920 --> 1:57:23.120 see them interact with each other. I'm always like pretty 1:57:23.120 --> 1:57:25.040 shocked that I could. I could, in the same hunt 1:57:25.400 --> 1:57:27.840 see a couple of white tails and a couple of 1:57:27.920 --> 1:57:31.040 mule deers, but they like don't have any social interaction 1:57:31.840 --> 1:57:34.640 anything to do with them. I would be very interested in, 1:57:34.840 --> 1:57:36.480 like if if you took that same study and you 1:57:36.480 --> 1:57:40.160 put a dough down a corral and she got to 1:57:40.240 --> 1:57:42.360 choose between a muley buck and a white tail buck, 1:57:42.560 --> 1:57:45.760 I imagine would be very high highly skewed for the white 1:57:45.760 --> 1:57:47.960 tail buck, like ninety plus percent, just based on what 1:57:48.000 --> 1:57:51.080 I've seen. But I don't know that I'm interested in 1:57:51.120 --> 1:57:53.800 anything like what a white tail buck and a mule 1:57:53.880 --> 1:57:56.320 deer buck would do if they encountered each other. 1:57:56.480 --> 1:57:58.240 That's a great thing. Or if you just took like 1:57:59.400 --> 1:58:04.200 if you just took like older arrays hmm, like order 1:58:04.320 --> 1:58:07.240 from a mild deer dough and estriss and odor from 1:58:07.240 --> 1:58:09.880 a white tail dough and estrus and like put it 1:58:09.920 --> 1:58:11.840 in front of both boxes. He like, oh, that's the 1:58:11.880 --> 1:58:13.680 white tail, you know, Yeah, that's a great. 1:58:13.560 --> 1:58:16.720 And in my observations, they interact as though like an 1:58:16.760 --> 1:58:19.040 elk in a white tail would interact. They just show 1:58:19.120 --> 1:58:21.360 no interest in each other. But I can't imagine it's 1:58:21.360 --> 1:58:21.840 that simple. 1:58:21.880 --> 1:58:23.000 You know, how you get funding for this? 1:58:23.720 --> 1:58:25.520 Remember how a few years ago you couldn't get funding 1:58:25.520 --> 1:58:28.200 for anything if it didn't have to do with climate. Yeah, okay, 1:58:29.120 --> 1:58:31.839 so pitch it like this. More and more white tails 1:58:31.920 --> 1:58:34.640 moving into more and more mildier country, mild deer are 1:58:34.680 --> 1:58:36.840 in a tough spot. Milder are probably going to be 1:58:36.880 --> 1:58:39.880 in a tougher spot with increased competition from white tails 1:58:40.000 --> 1:58:43.240 increase competition for elk. So go to the Mild Deer 1:58:43.400 --> 1:58:46.680 Foundation and be like, we need to understand more about 1:58:46.720 --> 1:58:49.240 as these as these white tails are colonizing more and 1:58:49.280 --> 1:58:51.960 more mildier country, how do they interact? We did, and 1:58:52.000 --> 1:58:54.280 here's all you're funding. Now there you go, got that problem. 1:58:54.800 --> 1:58:56.960 What do you think on like how they interact with 1:58:57.000 --> 1:58:59.960 each other in the wild. Don't know a lot about 1:59:00.160 --> 1:59:02.280 that because that's out of my that's side of my 1:59:02.360 --> 1:59:05.760 home range over there, But I do think it would 1:59:05.800 --> 1:59:10.320 be interesting to challenge a white tailed dough with a 1:59:10.520 --> 1:59:15.360 fully mature, large antlered mule deer and then a smaller, 1:59:15.680 --> 1:59:21.360 younger whitetail. Really, is it the species straw or the 1:59:21.360 --> 1:59:25.160 the phenotype of this is a good father, a good sire. 1:59:25.120 --> 1:59:27.560 And biology would tell us that she would be making 1:59:27.560 --> 1:59:30.400 a poor decision by going with the Muley right, because 1:59:30.440 --> 1:59:34.280 their offspring really fail with their escape mechanism, like they 1:59:34.320 --> 1:59:39.280 can't start or something like that is viable. I don't 1:59:39.320 --> 1:59:40.280 know if that's is that true? 1:59:40.360 --> 1:59:41.960 I think that I think it's like I think it's 1:59:42.040 --> 1:59:43.760 like a horse. 1:59:43.400 --> 1:59:44.800 And a donkey throwing a mule. 1:59:45.040 --> 1:59:45.640 I thought. 1:59:48.080 --> 1:59:50.320 They're viable. Okay, they're sexually viable. 1:59:50.320 --> 1:59:51.800 We're gonna learn when he does the study. 1:59:52.320 --> 1:59:54.240 You know what I'd throw into that study? Man, if 1:59:54.280 --> 1:59:58.240 you got like time to burn, man, if there's any 1:59:58.400 --> 2:00:03.760 like h if symmetry matters to dose joan, is there 2:00:03.760 --> 2:00:09.720 any like disadvantage to being atypical? It probably gets hard 2:00:09.760 --> 2:00:12.400 after a while to tease out all these little differences, though, 2:00:12.440 --> 2:00:12.760 don't it. 2:00:12.920 --> 2:00:20.240 Yeah, but you could manipulate it. It would be obvious. Yeah, yeah, nine, yeah, yeah, 2:00:20.240 --> 2:00:22.800 you could attach stuff to where it's really. 2:00:22.920 --> 2:00:24.480 He's got a club on one side. 2:00:24.720 --> 2:00:26.560 Yeah, yeah, you can do that. 2:00:27.200 --> 2:00:29.920 The other study I'd be interested in is a deer's 2:00:30.000 --> 2:00:32.920 response to yellow soybeans. I've been told all my life, 2:00:33.000 --> 2:00:34.680 and I feel like I've maybe witnessed it some but 2:00:34.720 --> 2:00:37.080 I don't know if I'm witnessing it because I'm supposed 2:00:37.120 --> 2:00:39.680 to witness it. But a deer given the choice in 2:00:39.760 --> 2:00:41.960 a in a big old soybean field, if there's some 2:00:42.200 --> 2:00:45.800 green beans, some yellow beans, and some brown beans, which 2:00:45.840 --> 2:00:48.360 the yellow is the ripening stage going from green to brown, 2:00:48.800 --> 2:00:51.160 they won't pick the yellow ones. They just taste worse, 2:00:51.760 --> 2:00:55.000 taste worse. Is that something you've heard seen? 2:00:56.000 --> 2:01:00.840 No, I haven't, but I think that's logical. So turning 2:01:00.920 --> 2:01:03.280 yellow from the desiccation that they're growing. 2:01:05.160 --> 2:01:08.360 Sounds like yeah, good? Like that. You know. I got 2:01:08.360 --> 2:01:11.200 some friends that are songwriters, and over the years, I've 2:01:11.240 --> 2:01:12.720 learned that they just do not want to hear our 2:01:12.760 --> 2:01:16.880 song ideas. But they don't even when you try to 2:01:16.880 --> 2:01:18.280 do it like a joke and give them a song 2:01:18.320 --> 2:01:19.960 idea but you're serious, but you're trying to act like 2:01:19.960 --> 2:01:21.440 it's a joke, they don't want to hear it. 2:01:21.720 --> 2:01:25.840 I like how you use the word hour. But but 2:01:26.240 --> 2:01:28.400 do they give you the obligatory that's a good. 2:01:29.840 --> 2:01:32.120 Just nothing to it. Do you like hearing study ideas? 2:01:32.840 --> 2:01:38.520 I do. Snow, you got a pile of. 2:01:39.360 --> 2:01:42.160 Some of them. Some of them can be really cuckoo. 2:01:43.040 --> 2:01:46.040 So you're you know, you're given a seminar and you 2:01:46.080 --> 2:01:50.840 always have what you ought to do? Is sure that 2:01:50.880 --> 2:01:51.480 can get old? 2:01:53.360 --> 2:01:54.040 What else? Man? 2:01:54.160 --> 2:01:55.120 I could go on all day. 2:01:55.600 --> 2:01:57.680 They just like to cap it off. If if hunters 2:01:57.720 --> 2:02:00.000 want to take what you've seen in your movement still 2:02:00.000 --> 2:02:01.640 but he's an apply it to the rut this year? 2:02:01.800 --> 2:02:02.760 What does that look like? 2:02:02.920 --> 2:02:03.160 Yeah? 2:02:03.200 --> 2:02:05.200 Yeah, how can they be more successful? 2:02:06.840 --> 2:02:11.520 So if you again, if you're going after a target buck, 2:02:11.720 --> 2:02:16.640 a particular buck, your greater opportunity for him to demonstrate 2:02:17.000 --> 2:02:19.320 site fidelity. So if you know where he's hanging out, 2:02:19.920 --> 2:02:23.360 you need to do that in the pre rut. If 2:02:23.400 --> 2:02:26.160 on the other hand, you are just gonna there's a 2:02:26.200 --> 2:02:28.200 lot of big bucks in the area. I just want 2:02:28.200 --> 2:02:31.640 to increase my odds for intercepting one that's going to 2:02:31.720 --> 2:02:33.960 be during the peak of the rut, a. 2:02:33.840 --> 2:02:36.040 Pre rut window being like late October. 2:02:36.720 --> 2:02:39.000 Well it depends when you is, say it's like a. 2:02:39.080 --> 2:02:40.960 November fifteen rut, that's the peak rut. 2:02:41.040 --> 2:02:44.320 Yeah, so let's go one month or greater before the 2:02:44.360 --> 2:02:47.600 peak of the rut. Okay, yeah, so like October fifteen 2:02:47.680 --> 2:02:50.440 then in your neck of the woods. Yeah okay, yeah, 2:02:50.440 --> 2:02:51.160 that'd be about right. 2:02:51.440 --> 2:02:54.360 Okay, So just make sure I'm track what you're saying, 2:02:54.400 --> 2:02:56.600 Like when we when you pick the November fifteenth, we 2:02:56.640 --> 2:02:59.120 would agree that peak rut is sort of like the 2:02:59.200 --> 2:03:02.640 day when you have the highest relative number of doughs 2:03:02.640 --> 2:03:05.400 in estres. That's what is that fair to define peak 2:03:05.440 --> 2:03:05.960 rut that way? 2:03:06.360 --> 2:03:09.080 Yeah, but rather than day, we might say over a 2:03:09.120 --> 2:03:12.960 two week, over a two week period, about half of 2:03:13.040 --> 2:03:16.560 the does have been into estres. So yes, that is 2:03:16.600 --> 2:03:19.800 going to be the series of days where the greatest 2:03:19.840 --> 2:03:20.920 number and greatest proportion. 2:03:21.480 --> 2:03:23.880 So there's a there's a two week window, like if 2:03:23.920 --> 2:03:26.640 you take a like just generally with white tail deer, 2:03:26.680 --> 2:03:29.760 there's a two week window in which fifty percent of 2:03:29.760 --> 2:03:32.640 the does come into estres. And we're going to declare 2:03:32.680 --> 2:03:34.360 that two week window peak rut. 2:03:34.560 --> 2:03:38.240 Yeah, you know, if it's a synchronized rut and so forth. 2:03:38.480 --> 2:03:41.200 Yeah, generally speaking, So that that's kind of funny because 2:03:41.200 --> 2:03:43.960 then when you hear guys killing some giant that no 2:03:44.000 --> 2:03:48.920 one has ever seen, never showed up on their cameras, like, 2:03:49.040 --> 2:03:52.320 that's that, dude, it's cruise, an excursion, he's an excursion book. Yeah, 2:03:52.360 --> 2:03:55.520 he excurreted off your place. Yeah, and excirted on some 2:03:55.600 --> 2:03:56.200 other goal. 2:03:56.240 --> 2:03:57.480 Somebody else and they got him. 2:03:57.680 --> 2:03:58.720 Yeah, exactly right. 2:04:00.640 --> 2:04:03.280 And then if you didn't get them pre rut, if 2:04:03.280 --> 2:04:05.880 you didn't get them during the rut, hunt food in 2:04:05.920 --> 2:04:11.400 the post rut, okay, yeah, and during the rut you 2:04:11.480 --> 2:04:16.160 might want to here's an interesting finding. We actually looked 2:04:16.200 --> 2:04:19.480 at food plot use, two different types of food plot use, 2:04:21.280 --> 2:04:23.920 and so on our study area. By the way, our 2:04:23.920 --> 2:04:27.400 study area was fifty to sixty thousand acres, so pretty big, 2:04:27.440 --> 2:04:30.600 pretty big footprint, and we had every making model of 2:04:30.640 --> 2:04:32.800 food plot you could have. We had quarter acre food 2:04:32.800 --> 2:04:36.440 plots acre all the way up to twenty acre food plots, 2:04:36.920 --> 2:04:39.640 and so we wanted to look at is there any 2:04:39.800 --> 2:04:45.560 food plot size that deer would come to that disproportionately and. 2:04:45.520 --> 2:04:48.760 So the size you weren't varying what you were growing. 2:04:50.000 --> 2:04:54.760 Good, good question. We had so many food plots that 2:04:54.800 --> 2:04:57.160 we had to assume that some of them had wheat 2:04:57.160 --> 2:04:59.680 and clover some of them had brassicas. We had to 2:04:59.680 --> 2:05:02.920 assume all that kind of smoothed, doubt that the actual 2:05:03.080 --> 2:05:06.400 plantings within it. But yes, it was just size and 2:05:06.920 --> 2:05:12.920 what we found. Even though two times the amount of 2:05:12.960 --> 2:05:18.200 like the smaller one acre food plots, the sweet spot 2:05:18.360 --> 2:05:23.880 was three four five acres. Really they disproportionately selected that 2:05:24.280 --> 2:05:25.440 size of plot. 2:05:26.040 --> 2:05:27.360 That feels secure to them. 2:05:27.480 --> 2:05:32.560 So why why would they do that? And so we 2:05:33.040 --> 2:05:38.160 think it's because what do small food plots not provide 2:05:38.560 --> 2:05:42.360 over the course of the hunting season. What happens to them? 2:05:42.680 --> 2:05:43.520 They get eaten out. 2:05:43.440 --> 2:05:47.040 They get over brows, they get overwhelmed. So not only 2:05:47.080 --> 2:05:49.240 because of the size of it and the number of 2:05:49.320 --> 2:05:52.120 deer on it. You don't have as many hours of 2:05:52.400 --> 2:05:55.640 photosynthesis going on because the smaller in the shade all that. 2:05:56.040 --> 2:05:58.960 Then you get to this three four five acre. Now 2:05:59.000 --> 2:06:03.120 you've got a big area. You're now producing more forage 2:06:03.440 --> 2:06:07.680 per acre, and now we've got a social aspect of 2:06:07.720 --> 2:06:10.160 it too, which I'll get to in a second. But 2:06:10.200 --> 2:06:12.680 then after that it was diminishing returns. So we didn't 2:06:12.680 --> 2:06:14.920 see anything greater of a ten acre plot versus a 2:06:14.920 --> 2:06:15.680 three acre plot. 2:06:17.080 --> 2:06:22.320 Oh okay, they didn't prefer five over twenty. 2:06:22.360 --> 2:06:22.800 They did. 2:06:23.320 --> 2:06:24.080 I'm sorry they did. 2:06:24.160 --> 2:06:26.760 Yeah, yeah, yeah, And so we saw a big drop 2:06:26.800 --> 2:06:32.560 off in relative to their availability on the landscape. Deer 2:06:32.600 --> 2:06:38.320 were disproportionately choosing those plots over the ones smaller and 2:06:38.400 --> 2:06:39.440 the ones larger. 2:06:39.600 --> 2:06:41.640 What's the argument against a bigger plot? Do you think 2:06:41.760 --> 2:06:42.360 in his head? 2:06:43.640 --> 2:06:46.600 I think you reach a particular size and there's just 2:06:46.640 --> 2:06:49.640 only so many deer in the area or are gonna 2:06:49.760 --> 2:06:50.320 use it. 2:06:51.400 --> 2:06:52.800 And I would say they're vulnerable. 2:06:53.040 --> 2:06:59.240 There's it's like a like like why do you feel 2:06:59.760 --> 2:07:06.440 a avoids? Like why is he avoiding a big food plot? 2:07:06.960 --> 2:07:09.280 I see what you mean. Now, yeah, he doesn't want 2:07:09.280 --> 2:07:11.680 to go into the middle of a big, old ten 2:07:11.800 --> 2:07:16.240 or twenty acres. Yeah, because that's security possibly, so yes, exposure. 2:07:15.800 --> 2:07:16.680 It's exposed. 2:07:16.760 --> 2:07:22.080 Yeah. So when you look at during the year, if 2:07:22.120 --> 2:07:27.440 you look at the number of visits per day, you 2:07:27.440 --> 2:07:31.040 will see that they are visiting more during the rut. 2:07:31.680 --> 2:07:33.680 So you think about how we analyze the data, it's 2:07:33.720 --> 2:07:35.920 just ding, did he visit the plot or not? Yes, 2:07:36.000 --> 2:07:39.800 and you tally those up. So they're visiting those food 2:07:39.840 --> 2:07:43.640 plots more during the day. So some of that is food, 2:07:44.200 --> 2:07:47.800 some of it is also socially. I mean they're cruising 2:07:47.480 --> 2:07:50.960 looking for dose. When you get to the end of 2:07:51.040 --> 2:07:54.080 the year, during the post rut, they will have just 2:07:54.120 --> 2:07:59.000 as many or less visits, but their duration is longer. 2:07:59.520 --> 2:08:02.960 So now they are visiting for the purpose of forage 2:08:03.480 --> 2:08:05.640 and not socially looking for a female. 2:08:05.760 --> 2:08:10.880 Yep, cow man. No, it's a lot of great information. 2:08:13.840 --> 2:08:16.200 I got such a good study. I had to say 2:08:16.960 --> 2:08:17.960 so hard to explain. 2:08:19.360 --> 2:08:22.000 I'm like a post book right now, and all I 2:08:22.000 --> 2:08:23.760 can think about is some food. And we got to 2:08:23.800 --> 2:08:25.440 do this trivia in like thirty minutes. 2:08:26.200 --> 2:08:27.680 Dude, thanks for coming on and wrap it up. 2:08:27.760 --> 2:08:32.920 Yeah, man, I love your the extension, like, tell people 2:08:33.000 --> 2:08:34.920 go how to go find your work and to see exauce. 2:08:34.960 --> 2:08:37.120 I mean, you got you have your academic publications, but 2:08:37.120 --> 2:08:39.960 you're also producing stuff for just guys like us. Yeah, 2:08:40.000 --> 2:08:42.000 so tell people how to go, how to go kind 2:08:42.000 --> 2:08:45.000 of find some of your infographics. 2:08:44.000 --> 2:08:48.360 And yeah, a couple places so you can go to 2:08:48.400 --> 2:08:51.760 the Msudar lab dot com. That's our website that has 2:08:51.880 --> 2:08:55.200 all of these publications on there. We also do a 2:08:55.200 --> 2:08:58.960 lot of this on social media, so we're on Facebook, Instagram, 2:08:59.320 --> 2:09:01.720 we have a YouTube channel with a lot of different videos, 2:09:01.800 --> 2:09:04.960 podcasts where we talk about this type of stuff. Podcast 2:09:05.080 --> 2:09:10.920 is Deer University, so MSU Deer Lab, the website, social media, 2:09:11.600 --> 2:09:14.000 uh YouTube. You ought to be able to get us. 2:09:14.560 --> 2:09:18.160 If it's on the private side outside of the university. 2:09:18.240 --> 2:09:21.040 If you're looking for help with land management, go to 2:09:21.080 --> 2:09:24.560 Wildlife Investments dot com and there's a lot of us there. 2:09:24.560 --> 2:09:28.160 A little company consulting work that's for consulting work. 2:09:28.200 --> 2:09:31.920 Yeah, that's great, man. And on that consulting work you 2:09:32.000 --> 2:09:34.919 kind of you probably do. You go survey the property, 2:09:35.000 --> 2:09:36.720 talk about what's going on, what could be better? 2:09:37.000 --> 2:09:43.920 Right, what strategies, habitat habitat management, deer ducks, turkey, quail, 2:09:44.240 --> 2:09:47.040 whatever you want with wildlife management. All right, we've got 2:09:47.080 --> 2:09:47.760 an expert. 2:09:47.560 --> 2:09:54.200 To help you. Right again, doctor Bronson Strickland from University 2:09:54.200 --> 2:09:55.560 of Mississippi. 2:09:56.880 --> 2:09:58.680 Hale State, Mississippi State. 2:09:58.560 --> 2:10:01.960 University, Mississippi State University. We have that same problem in 2:10:02.000 --> 2:10:03.680 Michigan because we've got U of M and M s 2:10:03.760 --> 2:10:04.760 U well. 2:10:08.760 --> 2:10:13.440 With the M specific with them specifically specifically. 2:10:13.600 --> 2:10:17.520 And then the the extension material is like the extension 2:10:17.880 --> 2:10:20.000 piece I was talking about that shows like that kind 2:10:20.000 --> 2:10:23.920 of puts your study on the lunar stuff. That's that's uh, 2:10:24.160 --> 2:10:30.280 that's a Michigan State University Extension pieced a Mississippi State 2:10:30.360 --> 2:10:35.560 University Extension piece that puts down it's a great graphic 2:10:36.040 --> 2:10:41.640 because it puts down what people think, the idiosyncrasies of 2:10:41.640 --> 2:10:46.000 what people think, what's found, and then it puts it 2:10:46.040 --> 2:10:49.600 into all these like percentages, and then whatever kind of 2:10:49.640 --> 2:10:53.240 guy you are, moon underfoot, moon overhead, full moon rising, 2:10:53.400 --> 2:10:57.240 full moon setting, you can go and track every possible 2:10:57.360 --> 2:10:58.959 variation and find out. 2:11:01.040 --> 2:11:04.760 Yards per hour all that, and you can go put 2:11:04.760 --> 2:11:06.400 your mind at ease about what's going on. 2:11:06.560 --> 2:11:09.360 That's right. I mean, it's very It is a when 2:11:09.400 --> 2:11:11.960 you look through it. I spent thirty minutes staring at 2:11:11.960 --> 2:11:17.000 it today. It is a very convincing portrayal of like 2:11:17.520 --> 2:11:19.080 looking at something quite thoroughly. 2:11:19.280 --> 2:11:19.760 Yeah. 2:11:19.840 --> 2:11:21.080 Yeah, it's a great piece. 2:11:21.200 --> 2:11:21.880 Appreciate that. 2:11:21.920 --> 2:11:22.160 Thank you. 2:11:22.240 --> 2:11:25.160 In poster form, it would take up a lot of walls. 2:11:24.880 --> 2:11:26.760 It sure would, it sure would. 2:11:27.080 --> 2:11:30.640 Yeah, but you might think about a small poster. We will, yeah, 2:11:30.920 --> 2:11:33.120 with the real salient points in it next time. 2:11:33.280 --> 2:11:35.600 Okay, thank you very much for coming on. 2:11:36.840 --> 2:11:39.200 We're all going to be, if not better deer hunters, better, 2:11:39.240 --> 2:11:41.200 Dear observers now, thank 2:11:41.240 --> 2:11:42.560 You, thanks Ronson,