WEBVTT - Ep. 450: Apical Dominance 0:00:08.760 --> 0:00:13.320 If this is the me Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, 0:00:13.520 --> 0:00:18.599 bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listeningcast, you can't 0:00:18.600 --> 0:00:24.480 predict anything presented by First Light, creating proven versatile hunting 0:00:24.520 --> 0:00:28.920 apparel from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear. For every hunt, 0:00:29.280 --> 0:00:35.519 first Light, Go farther, stay longer. All right, we're in 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:39.519 our brand new studio. It's like Phil died. I couldn't 0:00:39.560 --> 0:00:41.360 I When I got in, I was so it was 0:00:41.400 --> 0:00:44.800 like I was sad and I realized that it's like 0:00:44.840 --> 0:00:45.360 Phil died. 0:00:45.840 --> 0:00:48.080 I'm still here, I promise, Yeah, but I wouldn't know 0:00:48.159 --> 0:00:48.960 that that's true. 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:50.919 Yeah, you can't see him behind all taking. 0:00:50.760 --> 0:00:52.080 From beyond the veil. 0:00:52.120 --> 0:00:54.120 He's like, yeah, it's like a ghost. 0:00:54.200 --> 0:00:56.360 Yeah, he's got like a little command and control center 0:00:56.560 --> 0:00:59.560 where it was like purposefully set up to not like 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:04.479 you could. You wouldn't even know. Even right now, sitting 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:06.080 here looking for him, I wouldn't know he's in here. 0:01:06.160 --> 0:01:07.319 It's like it's like the Wizard of Oz. 0:01:07.360 --> 0:01:09.360 Just pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. 0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:12.600 Cal suggested we get like a heart rate monitor up 0:01:12.640 --> 0:01:16.600 on the wall above Phil so we could at least 0:01:16.920 --> 0:01:18.240 see his vitals. 0:01:19.760 --> 0:01:22.399 I think Steve would have some fun games with that 0:01:22.400 --> 0:01:25.200 that would be very confusing to the listener, trying to 0:01:25.200 --> 0:01:27.560 see how he can spike poor Phil's heart rate. 0:01:27.640 --> 0:01:30.600 Back there, Man, one time I had I was doing 0:01:30.640 --> 0:01:35.880 this uh this life insurance policy where I had to lamp. 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:37.399 Some dude came over and I had to lamb my 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:38.880 couch and he hooked me up to a bunch and 0:01:39.000 --> 0:01:41.520 put a bunch of those little stickies on me to 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:46.280 monitor your heart rate, you know. And I'm laying on 0:01:46.319 --> 0:01:50.000 my couch and periodically you could hear I could hear 0:01:50.000 --> 0:01:54.560 my kids fight upstairs, you know, and you here like Matthew, 0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:58.680 stop it right. And I had and I'm and I 0:01:58.720 --> 0:02:01.440 had to be on this thing for twenty minutes. And 0:02:01.480 --> 0:02:03.000 I asked the guy, can you see that? He goes, 0:02:03.040 --> 0:02:07.720 Oh yeah, he goes every time that like when those 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:10.040 kids make that stomach noise. 0:02:13.040 --> 0:02:13.320 Nice. 0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:16.720 It takes a toll on you, man, slowly kills you. 0:02:18.919 --> 0:02:24.120 But back to Phil, He Phil, why you got it 0:02:24.160 --> 0:02:26.359 wrapped up in black blankets and stuff? Back there? 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:30.079 It's another temporary solution, Steve. It's a there's a lot 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:32.000 of cables. I was trying to make it less of 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:34.040 an isore. I think it might have had the opposite effect. 0:02:34.080 --> 0:02:37.079 He's waiting on a little coffin. He's waiting on a 0:02:37.080 --> 0:02:41.120 little coffin. Or he'll hide back there. Yeah, we've been 0:02:41.120 --> 0:02:43.440 talking about Phil is going to get a DJ deal, 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:49.280 like a platform Yeah, because picture well, no, DJs don't 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:50.880 use screens. 0:02:50.280 --> 0:02:54.400 Though, no, they don't. Put they're on platforms. You should, like, 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:57.400 you should take a picture of him and and be like, 0:02:57.480 --> 0:03:00.840 where's Phil? Post it and just see if anyone can 0:03:01.000 --> 0:03:02.960 can really see that he's back there. 0:03:03.280 --> 0:03:08.079 It's killing me. Join Today by author and Forrester, Michael Schneider. 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:09.960 Do you go like a Snyder? 0:03:11.160 --> 0:03:14.480 It's Snyder like Schneider, not like Schneider. 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:15.160 Not like Krin. 0:03:15.360 --> 0:03:19.280 It's it's been anglicized from the Yeah. 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:23.560 Uh man. When I got your book woods Wise, I'm trying, 0:03:23.600 --> 0:03:26.200 sad to say, this is the nicest way possible. I 0:03:26.240 --> 0:03:29.160 was initially dismissive because I've never read a forestry book 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:29.600 in my life. 0:03:30.960 --> 0:03:32.280 And you're in a big club. 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:37.320 Yeah, like most Yeah, like most Americans, like an overwhelming 0:03:37.360 --> 0:03:40.120 majority of Americas. I never read a forestry book. And 0:03:40.240 --> 0:03:43.160 the minute I it's sat on my desk and sad, 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:45.160 my desk, and one day I opened it and realized 0:03:45.200 --> 0:03:51.120 how it was structured. It's it's structured in like questions, 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:53.480 many of which are great questions, and it's like it 0:03:53.640 --> 0:03:56.040 poses a question and answers the question. 0:03:56.120 --> 0:03:57.600 Addresses the question. 0:03:57.560 --> 0:03:59.760 Addresses the questions, and some of them are unanswerable. 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:01.800 I'm big on that. 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:03.720 The minute I opened it up and saw that there's 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:09.200 a thing why are conifers shaped like cones? I was like, 0:04:09.200 --> 0:04:11.400 shod ever thought about that? Why are they shaped like cones? 0:04:11.440 --> 0:04:11.840 Awesome? 0:04:12.320 --> 0:04:13.960 No, that's when I wanted. That's why I told Krim 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:15.720 we should have this guy on to talk about all 0:04:15.760 --> 0:04:19.719 the like, because this is great for people's barroom banter capabilities. 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:25.320 To imagine some single fella, maagine some single fella down 0:04:25.320 --> 0:04:28.400 in the bar. Everyone go get Michael's book. 0:04:29.279 --> 0:04:30.359 It sounds like my past. 0:04:30.480 --> 0:04:34.920 Yeah, down the bar. It's a lovely young lady next 0:04:34.920 --> 0:04:37.040 to you, and you're like, shit, man, I can't think 0:04:37.080 --> 0:04:41.240 of a good icebreaker. You know, I can't be like 0:04:41.279 --> 0:04:46.080 you sure are pretty, because that don't fly. He'd be like, hey, man, 0:04:46.600 --> 0:04:51.120 do you ever wonder why uh you know pine trees 0:04:51.120 --> 0:04:56.440 are cone shaped? That's good, dude, that's rock. So solid. 0:04:56.560 --> 0:04:59.839 Put that one in your and your pick up. 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:04.120 That's real audience specific. I just came back from a 0:05:05.120 --> 0:05:08.800 wedding in La and I don't think that would have 0:05:08.800 --> 0:05:12.320 got you anywhere. And like, let me tell you why 0:05:12.360 --> 0:05:13.279 your lips look like that. 0:05:14.560 --> 0:05:17.480 No, so we're gonna we're gonna dig in. But tell 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:20.080 about your job, because you know the comedy Parks and 0:05:20.080 --> 0:05:21.840 w Reck. You were actually at a place called Parks 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:22.120 and Reck. 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:23.560 Yeah, Forest Parks and w Reck. 0:05:23.760 --> 0:05:24.760 Do you guys love that show? 0:05:25.040 --> 0:05:25.320 Yeah? 0:05:25.360 --> 0:05:27.279 And I got a lot of that over the years. 0:05:27.440 --> 0:05:32.520 And I'm like, oh, okay, sure. But and so I 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:35.560 was the commissioner. So that's also fun because you get 0:05:35.560 --> 0:05:37.000 to be the commission. 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:38.320 Yeah, you were a high level individual. 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:41.919 Well yeah, in a you know, big fish in a 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:45.440 small pond kind of way. But you know, so I 0:05:45.480 --> 0:05:47.800 am I am as of January first, I am no 0:05:47.880 --> 0:05:50.960 longer the commissioner of the Vermont Department of Forest, Parks 0:05:50.960 --> 0:05:53.480 and Recreation. But that's what you're referring to, and that's 0:05:53.480 --> 0:05:54.560 what I was for twelve years. 0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:56.080 This was sad about this. 0:05:56.120 --> 0:05:59.040 It was my choice. There's stuff I missed, the good people, 0:05:59.080 --> 0:06:02.279 the good stuff. The mission is amazing, credible, staff of 0:06:02.600 --> 0:06:07.640 professional foresters, biologists, you know, recreation specialists, parks people. But 0:06:07.720 --> 0:06:12.119 it's heavy to politics and bureaucracy and that that gets 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:14.880 old and uh and I did it for an inordinate 0:06:14.880 --> 0:06:18.080 amount of time. Uh historically speaking that you know, I 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:22.400 served through two government It's an appointed position by the governor. 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:26.560 You lead a department that has the it is well 0:06:26.640 --> 0:06:31.200 named with a statutory mission for forest force, health, forestry, 0:06:31.960 --> 0:06:35.520 the state park system, which is really quite excellent in Vermont, 0:06:35.800 --> 0:06:39.520 and then sort of broadly speaking, outdoor recreation. And we're 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:43.240 a sister department to the Department of Fish and Wildlife, 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:47.039 and so our our our forests are their habitat right, 0:06:47.520 --> 0:06:52.720 and so we we managed public lands cooperatively together. It's 0:06:52.720 --> 0:06:56.279 a really cool tradition of kind of inter departmental work 0:06:58.560 --> 0:07:01.320 and uh so it it It was amazing. I worked 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:06.480 for fourteen years prior to that within the department as 0:07:06.480 --> 0:07:10.000 a forester and as what we call a service forester. 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:15.000 Most states have in a Department of Forestry an arm 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:19.320 that includes people who give technical assistance to private landowners municipalities, 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:21.920 and that's what I did. That is like the best 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:24.640 job you can have. It's so cool. You're just out 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:28.800 with interesting people, walking interesting pieces of land and helping them. 0:07:29.040 --> 0:07:31.960 You don't have to drum up business. You're not really 0:07:32.040 --> 0:07:36.400 much of a regulator. You're just a facilitating conservation on 0:07:36.480 --> 0:07:38.560 private lands, which is you know in the East, is 0:07:38.600 --> 0:07:42.640 like it's the majority of the lands. And so that's 0:07:42.640 --> 0:07:44.720 what I did, and that's where the book really came from, 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:48.120 was just being with people and their fascinations with the woods, 0:07:48.120 --> 0:07:50.800 their ignorance with the woods, their love of the woods. 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:53.520 And then you know, collecting questions and realizing that I 0:07:53.600 --> 0:07:55.240 answer a lot of questions and I'm kind of a 0:07:55.280 --> 0:07:59.560 geek coming from a background in forest science in particular, 0:08:00.200 --> 0:08:03.160 thing about I grew disillusioned with we produced, you know, 0:08:03.160 --> 0:08:06.360 published peer reviewed papers that didn't really go anywhere except 0:08:06.400 --> 0:08:10.520 other scientists citing them and their proposals and their their work. 0:08:10.600 --> 0:08:13.120 And so I'd left wanting to get I took a 0:08:13.200 --> 0:08:15.560 chance at being one of these county foresters with a 0:08:15.600 --> 0:08:19.520 county as a geography of an area of jurisdiction, to 0:08:19.560 --> 0:08:22.600 give that kind of technical assistance with a hope that 0:08:22.680 --> 0:08:24.720 you know, maybe I can help bring the science to 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:30.320 the management and stewardship of private woodlands. And did that 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:35.400 for fourteen years, and then out of nowhere, an incoming governor. 0:08:35.480 --> 0:08:38.040 The transition team contacted me and said, hey, we're hearing things. 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:40.280 We wonder if you'd like to be the governor's you know, 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:44.520 commissioner for the governor. Then Peter Shumlin, a Democrat who 0:08:44.920 --> 0:08:48.120 who had been in this state Senate and was Senate 0:08:48.160 --> 0:08:53.280 pro Tem, ran first statewide office, won that election and 0:08:53.400 --> 0:08:55.040 was putting a team together, and they reached out to me. 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:57.680 I said, no, you kidding me. I mean maybe when 0:08:57.720 --> 0:09:00.560 I'm old then you know, my knees go and I 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:03.240 can't roam the woods anymore, and maybe I'll be like, 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:06.040 whys and then I'll be commissioner. And they're like, we're 0:09:06.080 --> 0:09:08.439 asking you now, and I went to I said no, 0:09:08.720 --> 0:09:11.520 I don't really am not interested. And then some I 0:09:11.520 --> 0:09:13.640 would call them elders and people in my life that 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:18.559 you know, we're trust and and have some wisdom. 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:19.120 Uh. 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:21.200 They were like, you got to do it, and so 0:09:21.280 --> 0:09:25.600 I took a chance. I said okay, and I lasted 0:09:25.600 --> 0:09:28.199 three terms with him. He decided to not run again, 0:09:29.360 --> 0:09:33.160 and the new governor, governor elected Scott, came in. He 0:09:33.400 --> 0:09:36.840 notified all the appointees, which is very typical. You know, 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:39.760 you know, please send in your resignation letters. If you 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:42.160 want to work in our administration, you're free to. But 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:44.720 you can apply just like everybody else, through the web portal, 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:46.040 which is what I did. 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:49.120 And uh kind of really okay, that was that a 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:50.040 different political party? 0:09:50.240 --> 0:09:52.680 Yes? I should have mentioned that. Yeah, totally, he's a Republican. 0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:55.640 Oh yeah, that's why the assumption was you're out. 0:09:55.720 --> 0:10:00.080 Yeah, it's pretty pretty traditional. And uh so you know 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:02.679 I did, and uh, I'm pretty sure I was the 0:10:02.760 --> 0:10:05.679 last kid picked. You know. Uh, they announced all these 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:08.679 new appointees and new secretaries of this and commissioners of that, 0:10:09.080 --> 0:10:11.439 and it was stressful because I'm into it. 0:10:11.480 --> 0:10:13.440 I'm like super So you went to the web portal, 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:17.960 I went filling out. Yeah, what it says like current 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:19.200 job would be like this job. 0:10:21.520 --> 0:10:23.880 Well, it's a little surreal, and I feel like I. 0:10:23.840 --> 0:10:26.920 Have very relevant work experiences since I have this job. 0:10:28.760 --> 0:10:32.760 Exactly. Uh, I'd like to say to his everlasting credit 0:10:32.840 --> 0:10:35.440 he uh, Now, they brought me in and and you know, 0:10:35.480 --> 0:10:37.360 it was, uh, it was pretty intense. I had some 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:41.440 very tough questions and some concerns, uh, because I you know, 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:43.000 into it and had kind of a big mouth and 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:45.360 was pushing for some certain things. Actually, to be honest, 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:47.520 it was uh Karint and I talked about a little 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:51.440 bit like forest fragmentation, the breaking of forest into smaller 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:53.840 and smaller pieces to the point where they become non 0:10:53.840 --> 0:10:56.640 functional as forest and habitat and connected lands, you know. 0:10:57.040 --> 0:10:59.760 And so in our state wide land use plans and regulation, 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:04.559 there's no lens for forests. It's a lot of other 0:11:04.720 --> 0:11:08.400 criteria they have to consider when when proposing some development, 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:10.400 Are you going to have an adverse impact on the 0:11:10.480 --> 0:11:13.160 environment in these various ways. Forest wasn't in there. And 0:11:13.200 --> 0:11:15.320 I was saying, you know, they're so important, they confer 0:11:15.440 --> 0:11:18.640 so much power and strength to our state. We should 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:22.000 have that as one of the checkboxes. No undue adverse impact, 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:24.520 or you avoid it, you minimize it, or you mitigate that. 0:11:25.640 --> 0:11:28.840 And they were really concerned because they thought that was 0:11:29.679 --> 0:11:32.960 only the only solution would be regulation, which this governor 0:11:33.040 --> 0:11:36.320 was very against taking property rights away from people. These 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:39.280 are things that matter to me too, And I was like, no, actually, 0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:43.160 there's an economic way through this. Let's reinvest in the loggers, 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:46.760 the workforce, the mills that are dying and eroding, let's 0:11:46.840 --> 0:11:49.880 rebuild the culture of forestry in our state as our 0:11:50.000 --> 0:11:52.800 last best hope to keep forest forest and to keep 0:11:52.840 --> 0:11:55.040 all of the many benefits that accrue to all of 0:11:55.120 --> 0:11:58.880 us from these private lands flowing. And they were like, 0:11:59.720 --> 0:12:04.120 oh okay, and he reappointed me, and I had another 0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:06.600 three year term with Governor Scott, which I'm for which 0:12:06.600 --> 0:12:10.240 I'm extremely grateful, And had to navigate all that, you know, 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:14.960 being kind of a tree freak, not kind of certifiable. 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:17.400 And a tree hug or tree freak hug some trees. 0:12:17.440 --> 0:12:19.120 But sometimes when you you need to. 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:20.120 Slap, don't. 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:25.280 Yeah, you know, but you know, sometimes oddly when you're 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:28.040 you know, you're gonna you know, boor cut into one 0:12:28.080 --> 0:12:29.959 to fell it, you get to wrap your arms around 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:33.719 a little bit sometimes. So it's a mixed bag, right, But. 0:12:33.760 --> 0:12:35.360 Yeah, so you know how to borer cut? 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:36.840 Oh absolutely. 0:12:36.880 --> 0:12:38.640 I recently learned that, Yeah, you need you. 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:40.120 Need to control, you need control. 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:44.560 Yeah, I was not cut sure where I come from. 0:12:44.600 --> 0:12:47.120 You're in control a huge piece of. 0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:49.000 Pie out of one side. Then you're coming from the 0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:49.360 air side. 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:52.040 Well, you come from a long tradition there, so yeah, 0:12:52.120 --> 0:12:56.200 directional felling, bar cutting, the hinge control. It's really cool 0:12:56.200 --> 0:12:58.520 when when you get it and it works, it's a 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:01.000 I've had so many loggers. I was like, you should 0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:03.280 go to the Game of logging training and like, no, no, 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:05.160 you know, I had to do this, you know, pencil 0:13:05.240 --> 0:13:08.920 Nick Forester, geek over theresiness. And then then then a 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:10.560 couple of them did it and they were like, wow, 0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:12.640 you know what, I gotta admit, this is pretty cool. 0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:15.440 So much more control, you know, chasing the tree down, 0:13:15.480 --> 0:13:19.520 you're you're you're you're holding that wood together until it's 0:13:19.559 --> 0:13:21.880 safe and ready and then flip it off. 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:23.880 And when we were when we were learning it, it 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:30.880 was explained to me we were cutting down a big walnut. Okay, yeah, 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:34.160 and these these these were like walnut specialists. These guys 0:13:34.160 --> 0:13:37.160 I was with their wallet specialists, and they're saying, on 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:39.440 a veneer log I mean, these guys are cutting like 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:42.560 they're down in the dirt, man, They're like, cut it 0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:45.880 down like in the roots. Yeah, and they're saying, no, 0:13:45.960 --> 0:13:47.880 you're not gonna come in here. And that cut a 0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:54.280 big you know, eight hundred dollars wedge exactly knee high 0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:57.280 and then whatever. You know, they're like very precise about 0:13:57.679 --> 0:14:02.599 they wanted zero waste way down low. I mean it 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:05.400 was that thing was ready for the stump grinder when 0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:07.320 they cut that thing down, and they were showing me 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:10.000 that little that cut, which I was like, that can't work, 0:14:10.120 --> 0:14:10.760 but that'll slick. 0:14:11.000 --> 0:14:11.440 Yeah. 0:14:11.800 --> 0:14:16.280 I went out with steel power equipment right and worked 0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:19.760 on a forestry project example that they had going in 0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:24.800 Oregon in conjunction with some tribal management, and they were 0:14:25.080 --> 0:14:30.120 doing this really technical felling of they wanted to drop 0:14:30.160 --> 0:14:35.400 these trees and they wanted them to overhang ever so 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:40.080 slightly into the river in order to provide overhead cover 0:14:40.280 --> 0:14:45.240 for spawning rainbow trout nice. And so they're like, yeah, 0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:48.080 you can drop them kind of in the water, but 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:53.040 not all the way right, And it was like it 0:14:53.080 --> 0:14:55.400 was a it was a big deal. And these two 0:14:56.120 --> 0:14:59.160 fellers that they had come out that work with steel 0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:02.360 all the time. The most painful part of the process 0:15:02.400 --> 0:15:05.800 for them was doing it slow enough so everybody else, 0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:08.560 all the state foresters and everybody could learn from it. 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:13.720 And it was just so day to day for these folks. 0:15:13.720 --> 0:15:16.560 But they're like, yeah, we're gonna put like these six 0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:20.800 limbs over the river. The rest of that tree is 0:15:20.800 --> 0:15:23.480 going to lay right here. And by right here, we 0:15:23.560 --> 0:15:25.320 mean and they walk out and they put a little 0:15:25.320 --> 0:15:28.400 flag right there and they walk back and it's like okay, 0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:30.640 and then this happens and you could just tell they're like, 0:15:31.160 --> 0:15:34.440 let us get on with this, jeez. But it was amazing, 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:37.560 Like every tree was just like that, and these are huge. 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:39.680 And it's a thing. It is impressive because it's not 0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:42.400 sort of by chance or they get lucky when someone 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:46.400 like they have control, and it's impressive, especially with leaning trees, 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:50.320 trees with defects, decay inside. They're not structurally sound. They're 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:53.400 really unpredictable, and yet people that really know what they're 0:15:53.440 --> 0:15:56.560 doing approach it with a plan that is real and 0:15:56.600 --> 0:15:57.040 it works. 0:15:57.080 --> 0:16:00.280 And I was staying with like the you know, kids 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:02.280 with soft hands on the other side of the river, 0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:05.000 and when that tree hit the ground, it was like 0:16:05.640 --> 0:16:07.600 it went through you, you know, and you're like, wow, 0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:09.720 that is a substantial chunk. 0:16:09.480 --> 0:16:12.760 Of what Yeah, no doubt, dude. I was. 0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:14.120 I don't want to say where I was. I was 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:19.160 at an event recently where I shook dozens of these 0:16:19.200 --> 0:16:23.880 softest hands I've ever touched, like more like real nice, 0:16:23.920 --> 0:16:26.360 to the point where I started to like anticipate it 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:31.480 if it made it. It's like it's kind of like 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:33.760 the noise when you shook the hands. Oh so weird. 0:16:34.560 --> 0:16:35.520 How are you doing back there, Phil? 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:39.000 You good, I'm doing great. I uh I take offense 0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:41.960 to these soft hands. Please continue. 0:16:42.720 --> 0:16:43.320 Uh. 0:16:43.720 --> 0:16:45.000 We got to touch on a couple of things, but 0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:46.440 I want to get when we come back. I want 0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:48.360 to I got two things I want. I want to 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:50.920 ask you about your disappointment about no one getting the 0:16:51.000 --> 0:16:54.080 Vermont honey thing or not not honey. I got my 0:16:54.120 --> 0:16:57.400 honey and syrup from Vermont. I'll point out right on. Yeah, 0:16:57.440 --> 0:17:01.120 but I got a friend that does both. But the 0:17:01.400 --> 0:17:05.719 sugar business maple syrup business, and two sugaring we call 0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:09.120 it sugaring. And two I want to tell you about 0:17:09.119 --> 0:17:11.560 one time I put a chainsaw into an oak tree 0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:19.840 and the gallons and gallons and gallons of water. It 0:17:19.960 --> 0:17:22.160 was like slicing into an old tractor tire. How much 0:17:22.160 --> 0:17:26.280 water come out of that tree? Uh, we'll get that 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:29.600 in the first cow lay out the corner layout the current. 0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:31.960 I think I think you got to explain your tractor tire. 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:35.680 Oh, in the old days, maybe they still do cethel No, 0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:37.600 they still do Oh. 0:17:37.560 --> 0:17:41.200 Well, I thought they use that sodium whatever. 0:17:42.920 --> 0:17:46.160 Yeah, it's just whatever. It doesn't freeze filled with water 0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:47.080 or just freeze in the winter. 0:17:47.600 --> 0:17:51.600 Yeah. We're doing a project one time where we had 0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:54.199 to cut Me and my brother had to cut one 0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:57.200 hundred of these little jackpines out and limb them and 0:17:57.240 --> 0:17:59.600 cut them to length and put them on stickers out 0:17:59.640 --> 0:18:02.879 in the feet and we were cutting to get in 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:07.239 there and left some little pungee sticks and put one 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:10.200 through a tractor tire. And I didn't know. I was young. 0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:13.320 I didn't know, and I didn't know that. I think 0:18:13.359 --> 0:18:15.840 it was full of Brian not air. 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:19.600 Yeah, I think they used to do a lot more 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:21.840 with before a tractors were four wheel drive. 0:18:22.280 --> 0:18:24.040 This was a two wheel drive forward. It was a 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:25.000 forward detractor. 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:27.760 Yeah, what was it like an AD smaller? 0:18:28.359 --> 0:18:30.359 I remember man had tires bass tall as me. 0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:33.199 Yeah. Anyway, the. 0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:39.280 Guys, the guys that I knew, had two wheel drive tractors, 0:18:39.320 --> 0:18:40.640 they put them in the rear tires. 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:43.520 It added weight to the tractor. That's exactly what this 0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:44.280 situation was. 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:50.000 More give you more attraction, and I think it also. 0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:55.920 Factories over it. Yeah, it lowers your center of gravity. 0:18:56.640 --> 0:18:58.920 Ballaced keeps you from tipping over. 0:18:59.240 --> 0:19:00.639 So you know, like that come. 0:19:00.520 --> 0:19:01.959 Out of this oak tree. 0:19:02.920 --> 0:19:06.320 And it wasn't flying squirrels, because that's another thing. 0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:08.880 Well, listen, man, the house I grew up in had 0:19:08.880 --> 0:19:12.960 a flying squirrel infestation, but I never had flying squirrels 0:19:13.000 --> 0:19:14.879 come out of a tree, had them come out of 0:19:14.920 --> 0:19:18.000 my house bad especially one time we came up and 0:19:18.680 --> 0:19:22.000 got on an extension ladder and started dropping mothballs down 0:19:22.040 --> 0:19:26.520 into a hole in the ceedar siding. Twenty four Flying squirrels. 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:29.520 I one time was sitting in a tree stand in 0:19:29.560 --> 0:19:32.600 New Jersey and I'm sitting there dark, waiting for the 0:19:32.640 --> 0:19:35.080 sun to come up, and it just gets like that 0:19:35.160 --> 0:19:37.320 gray light, and all of a sudden, like called the 0:19:37.320 --> 0:19:40.679 cold gray light, something like whizz passed my head and 0:19:40.720 --> 0:19:42.679 smacks the tree and runs up and it's like one 0:19:42.720 --> 0:19:43.160 of those deals. 0:19:43.160 --> 0:19:44.880 You're like, holy shit, like what was that? 0:19:45.480 --> 0:19:47.360 And then like a couple of seconds later another one 0:19:47.440 --> 0:19:50.960 what And I'm like what the hell is going on here? 0:19:51.000 --> 0:19:53.639 It was flying squirrels like soaring into the tree that 0:19:53.680 --> 0:19:55.639 I was sitting on, and it was they were like 0:19:55.880 --> 0:19:58.080 landing on the tree and then running up the tree. Yeah, 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:00.639 there was I don't know, probably a dozen that did that, 0:20:00.720 --> 0:20:02.200 and he like hit the tree that I was sitting 0:20:02.200 --> 0:20:03.640 on and ran up to the dop. 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:06.160 They don't get enough credit for how cool they are, right, Yeah. 0:20:06.359 --> 0:20:08.159 You when I was a kid, you could turn We 0:20:08.200 --> 0:20:10.359 had a bird feeder outside the kitchen window, like on 0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:13.400 the sill of the kitchen window, and sometimes you turn 0:20:13.480 --> 0:20:17.080 the light on at night in the kitchen and it'll 0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:19.640 illuminate that thing, and like the last thing you're expecting 0:20:19.760 --> 0:20:23.600 is a bunch of little squirrels sitting there eating fucking squirrels. 0:20:24.040 --> 0:20:27.560 That's an interesting waterfowl kind of comparison that you had there. 0:20:27.600 --> 0:20:30.280 Like you can start a new little uh hunting club 0:20:30.359 --> 0:20:33.880 right where you like identify the masked tree that those 0:20:33.920 --> 0:20:35.919 flying squirrels are going to in the morning. Oh and 0:20:35.960 --> 0:20:36.880 you go on set up. 0:20:37.480 --> 0:20:42.639 Yeah, wait all. 0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:44.280 Right, corner cross it. We've covered it to the dickens. Yeah, 0:20:44.320 --> 0:20:49.320 it might not. It's just a long story. It's like like, 0:20:49.400 --> 0:20:52.320 let's say you're the news. You don't apologize every time 0:20:52.320 --> 0:20:56.040 you cover the president. You'll be like, oh my god, 0:20:56.119 --> 0:20:57.880 here we are talking about the president again. 0:20:57.800 --> 0:20:58.600 And that's a big deal. 0:20:58.680 --> 0:21:00.400 It just it never ends. It just can is run. 0:21:00.440 --> 0:21:02.560 So the corner crossing deal and I don't even know, 0:21:02.960 --> 0:21:05.560 Like what if you're the news and you report on 0:21:05.600 --> 0:21:08.240 the president every day, you don't need to give back. 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:11.359 You don't need to go like So, there's this country, 0:21:11.440 --> 0:21:16.000 the US, and they have executively, they have they have 0:21:16.040 --> 0:21:26.320 a triumph triumvirate what's the word executive judicially Like this 0:21:26.480 --> 0:21:29.400 is the United States of America. They have a judicial system, 0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:33.320 they have a congressional system and an executive leadership system 0:21:33.359 --> 0:21:37.760 and it's a triumvirate check system of checks and balances 0:21:37.800 --> 0:21:41.159 and so that fella yesterday, right, you don't need to 0:21:41.160 --> 0:21:45.119 do all that. So the wyoming corner crossing case. If 0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:48.480 you're not familiar, I don't know what to tell you. 0:21:48.520 --> 0:21:51.240 Just go back and listen to go back and listen. 0:21:51.840 --> 0:21:54.280 Go back and listen to All Up in your Airspace. 0:21:55.359 --> 0:21:59.400 That was an episode. Go back and listen to Busted 0:21:59.440 --> 0:22:02.439 for Touching It. Yes, listen to that. 0:22:03.359 --> 0:22:05.399 Or read all the articles on the website, or. 0:22:05.359 --> 0:22:07.399 Read all the articles at the media dot com. And 0:22:07.600 --> 0:22:09.160 and Cal's gonna take it away. 0:22:10.720 --> 0:22:15.600 Thank you, Steve. You Cal, I want to uh, we're 0:22:15.600 --> 0:22:17.679 gonna go off of this assumption that everybody knows what 0:22:17.680 --> 0:22:19.439 we're talking about for the most part. And then I 0:22:19.480 --> 0:22:21.119 just want to hit on a couple of parts that 0:22:21.200 --> 0:22:23.920 I think people need to focus on and pay attention 0:22:24.000 --> 0:22:29.200 to because this is what is going to be brought 0:22:29.280 --> 0:22:32.640 up again and be central to the case going forward. 0:22:32.680 --> 0:22:35.680 Yes, you know we're having a forest round right now. 0:22:35.880 --> 0:22:36.160 Yes. 0:22:36.560 --> 0:22:40.439 Can you imagine the tension that Doug durn is feeling 0:22:40.520 --> 0:22:46.040 right now. He's holding his phone. He doesn't know what 0:22:46.160 --> 0:22:48.560 he's gonna write in about, but as soon as that's 0:22:48.600 --> 0:22:52.560 some bit what he's going to complain about to me yet, 0:22:52.920 --> 0:22:54.800 but he's ready or what he's going to fact check. 0:22:55.119 --> 0:22:55.840 He's ready. 0:22:56.080 --> 0:22:57.080 That's not what we call that. 0:22:57.160 --> 0:23:03.000 He probably got off his tractor and he's ready for 0:23:03.160 --> 0:23:07.200 something to be like, well quite hard put it. But anyways, 0:23:07.240 --> 0:23:08.879 go on col A. 0:23:08.920 --> 0:23:11.679 Lot of woodlot managers out there. 0:23:12.040 --> 0:23:15.119 You said private would private forest? I think he like 0:23:15.520 --> 0:23:18.080 just whatever he is doing, he's not doing, and I 0:23:18.160 --> 0:23:19.959 have he's poised and ready. 0:23:20.280 --> 0:23:22.480 Long time ago, chased a lady out to Vermont and 0:23:22.520 --> 0:23:25.600 did like a eight month stint in Vermont. And there's 0:23:25.720 --> 0:23:30.280 a lot of foresters doing non forestry jobs in Vermont. 0:23:30.440 --> 0:23:33.320 They came out of forestry school and just couldn't couldn't 0:23:33.320 --> 0:23:35.240 find a forestry paycheck. 0:23:35.320 --> 0:23:35.520 You know. 0:23:35.680 --> 0:23:37.640 So there are a lot of experts out there. 0:23:37.600 --> 0:23:39.200 Oh yeah, lots of experts. 0:23:39.320 --> 0:23:41.920 Yeah, yeah, so, and there's a lot. 0:23:42.680 --> 0:23:44.160 I'm good friends with one of them. 0:23:44.200 --> 0:23:48.320 There are a lot of experts on this case. And 0:23:48.359 --> 0:23:51.679 it's really interesting, right because it has to do, of course, 0:23:51.720 --> 0:23:58.960 with public and private interface here. So in this case 0:23:59.040 --> 0:24:02.399 corner crossing, which of course is stepping from one piece 0:24:02.440 --> 0:24:05.840 of public land to an adjoining corner of public land 0:24:06.160 --> 0:24:09.000 at the intersection of four parcels. 0:24:09.240 --> 0:24:10.760 I like the old checkerboard analogy. 0:24:10.880 --> 0:24:12.120 It is a checkerboard. 0:24:12.240 --> 0:24:18.840 Yes, so your public is black, say, private is red? Sure, 0:24:19.600 --> 0:24:26.000 and you're yeah, stepping from red to red, stepping from. 0:24:24.560 --> 0:24:34.399 On the diagonal black to black. Sure. Yeah. So four 0:24:34.720 --> 0:24:38.679 hunters from Missouri use this method to access pieces of 0:24:38.680 --> 0:24:43.040 blm land that are and of course the other adjoining 0:24:43.080 --> 0:24:48.119 corners are private land. In this case that we're speaking of, 0:24:49.240 --> 0:24:54.040 this fellow Fred Eshlman's private oasis in Wyoming called the 0:24:54.040 --> 0:24:59.920 Elk Mountain Ranch, and Eshelman decide to soothe these folk 0:25:00.520 --> 0:25:06.639 for criminal trespass. And I believe this is the the 0:25:06.680 --> 0:25:07.439 civil case. 0:25:07.760 --> 0:25:11.160 Yeah, they got acquitted for the on the criminal criminal. 0:25:11.680 --> 0:25:15.040 This is the civil case that the idea was. It 0:25:15.080 --> 0:25:19.040 was going to be tried in a civil court in Wyoming, 0:25:19.440 --> 0:25:24.200 but it was picked up by the Supreme Court. 0:25:26.560 --> 0:25:30.280 The juice got off on criminal and they stuck it 0:25:30.320 --> 0:25:31.080 to him in civil. 0:25:33.560 --> 0:25:34.560 Was that on TV too? 0:25:35.040 --> 0:25:40.520 And these guys criminal the criminal courts like, nah, you 0:25:40.560 --> 0:25:41.440 need to break a law. 0:25:42.600 --> 0:25:45.959 Because and this will give you like the reason as 0:25:46.040 --> 0:25:53.000 to why. Right Judge Scovdall, who is the the federal 0:25:54.000 --> 0:25:57.679 justice here writes in his opinion, the court finds that 0:25:57.760 --> 0:26:01.560 there that where a person corn crosses on foot within 0:26:01.640 --> 0:26:05.600 the checkerboard from public land to public land, without touching 0:26:05.640 --> 0:26:10.680 the surface of private land and without damaging private property, 0:26:10.960 --> 0:26:18.920 there is no liability for trespass. Very convenient that this 0:26:19.000 --> 0:26:23.480 line is in the opinion, because this is kind of 0:26:24.040 --> 0:26:28.400 where it stands in court. Is, Oh, really you want 0:26:28.440 --> 0:26:32.359 to sue? Where are the damages? How do we prove 0:26:32.440 --> 0:26:35.160 that there are damages to private land? 0:26:36.640 --> 0:26:36.760 Now? 0:26:36.840 --> 0:26:39.560 Didn't didn't Just a little bit earlier in another wrinkle 0:26:39.600 --> 0:26:45.280 in this the landowner had said. The landowner comes and says, uh, 0:26:48.240 --> 0:26:51.800 because my because I used to have exclusive access to 0:26:51.840 --> 0:26:56.600 this public land and I now, don't I feel that 0:26:56.680 --> 0:26:59.400 I've lost seven and a half million dollars in land 0:26:59.520 --> 0:27:03.280 value of land because I understood my ranch to sort 0:27:03.320 --> 0:27:10.280 of have to come with exclusive BLM access, and now 0:27:10.320 --> 0:27:14.479 that it's not my ranch feels to me seven hundred 0:27:14.960 --> 0:27:18.560 or seven and a half million dollars less valuable and 0:27:19.119 --> 0:27:21.920 didn't like in some prior thing the judge bring up, 0:27:23.400 --> 0:27:28.080 I'm not buying that that that's these guys problem, or 0:27:28.119 --> 0:27:31.760 that that's that that that I think you're mixing up 0:27:31.880 --> 0:27:34.359 like that that how are how did these guys cost 0:27:34.359 --> 0:27:37.080 you seven and a half million dollars when we. 0:27:38.400 --> 0:27:42.439 There's a a good chance there is a probable chance 0:27:42.920 --> 0:27:46.760 that we can't determine those damages because it's not illegal. 0:27:48.560 --> 0:27:51.000 Yeah, right, it's because it hinges on it being illegal. 0:27:51.280 --> 0:27:54.240 Yes, And it's like you bought a ranch that has 0:27:54.359 --> 0:27:58.040 this type of land configuration, this checkerboard land configuration on 0:27:58.160 --> 0:28:03.000 part of it. That's that's your private dealing and you 0:28:03.000 --> 0:28:04.480 should should have been aware of the risks. 0:28:04.560 --> 0:28:06.920 Yeah. I always felt that his gripe was should to 0:28:06.960 --> 0:28:10.399 be with the realtors and the lawyers that did the 0:28:10.440 --> 0:28:13.359 deal when he bought the ranch, because he bought the 0:28:13.440 --> 0:28:17.359 ranch under the under the someone gave him the impression 0:28:18.560 --> 0:28:21.400 that he had exclusive access to this and it and 0:28:21.560 --> 0:28:24.399 that idea hadn't been tested in the courts, and he 0:28:24.440 --> 0:28:28.439 should have and someone maybe falsely advertised this. 0:28:28.760 --> 0:28:31.920 But you understand you you've listened to my strip club analogy, right, 0:28:32.040 --> 0:28:36.240 no please? So I bought a. 0:28:35.280 --> 0:28:40.680 Heart rate meter. Just heart meter, spike, We're. 0:28:40.520 --> 0:28:45.400 Gonna have some good background music. Yeah. So I bought 0:28:45.440 --> 0:28:49.120 a condo and here in in Bozeman, Okay, it's in 0:28:49.160 --> 0:28:53.160 a commercial area of town. It butts up to commercial property. 0:28:53.520 --> 0:28:57.560 It is at least a partially commercial property in itself 0:28:57.640 --> 0:29:02.280 right put in the strip club and the property behind 0:29:03.000 --> 0:29:08.719 that directly a butt's up to My property was for 0:29:08.760 --> 0:29:11.680 sale at the time. It's it's been rented in long 0:29:11.760 --> 0:29:14.920 term leases for five years now. It just was up 0:29:14.920 --> 0:29:20.560 for sale again and sold again. And speaking about the 0:29:20.600 --> 0:29:23.720 future of this property, right because you're investing in the property, 0:29:24.560 --> 0:29:28.520 I was like, so, the big risk here is this, 0:29:29.280 --> 0:29:31.800 because of the nature, this changing face of this commercial 0:29:31.800 --> 0:29:36.280 property that is directly out my back window. If they 0:29:36.280 --> 0:29:41.360 were to put in some sort of like, oh, I 0:29:41.360 --> 0:29:44.080 don't know, like Bozeman thing these days of like a 0:29:44.120 --> 0:29:50.120 wine bar and tasting room or yes with yeah, and 0:29:50.560 --> 0:29:54.720 who knows, Like, my property value could very well go up. However, 0:29:55.120 --> 0:29:58.440 if it were to turn into like an ultimately like 0:29:58.560 --> 0:30:03.760 super sedy like liquor store slash strip club situation, my 0:30:03.880 --> 0:30:08.680 property values would very much likely go down. And this 0:30:08.840 --> 0:30:13.920 is me a non uh mogul of any sorts by 0:30:13.960 --> 0:30:20.720 anyone's standards, right, So I find it absolutely ridiculous that 0:30:21.480 --> 0:30:29.120 this particular fellow, with his long list of financial accomplishments 0:30:29.760 --> 0:30:34.080 could turn around and be like, yeah, well the real 0:30:34.160 --> 0:30:40.120 estate agent censol, I mean, was the victim here, you 0:30:40.160 --> 0:30:42.640 know what I mean. It's like that is part of 0:30:42.680 --> 0:30:45.600 what you do in your due diligence as an adult 0:30:45.960 --> 0:30:50.080 purchasing anything caveat emptor yes, sir, buyer beware. 0:30:51.040 --> 0:30:56.080 So hmmm, so you're pointing to the no liability Yeah. 0:30:56.120 --> 0:31:01.440 No, no, yeah, somebody forced him to purchase this before 0:31:01.480 --> 0:31:03.880 he was of legal age and he didn't quite understand 0:31:03.920 --> 0:31:07.320 the Yeah, you'd have to tell me quite quite the 0:31:07.320 --> 0:31:13.480 story of there. So anyway, and there's been these previous instances, 0:31:15.920 --> 0:31:19.479 the blue sky scenario here for this whole situation is 0:31:20.040 --> 0:31:24.720 this guy Eshelman would have been like, all right, don't 0:31:25.000 --> 0:31:27.360 just don't tell anybody that you guys are doing this. 0:31:27.720 --> 0:31:29.720 I don't want to see a bunch of cars parked here. 0:31:29.960 --> 0:31:32.360 It's a pain in the butt. There's going to be trash. 0:31:32.560 --> 0:31:35.600 There's reasons that we don't want people corner crossing in 0:31:35.680 --> 0:31:38.680 here because they're gonna spread weeds around, there's always a 0:31:38.760 --> 0:31:41.760 risk of fire. We just want good neighbors, right, you 0:31:41.800 --> 0:31:43.800 guys be good neighbors, will be good neighbors. 0:31:44.720 --> 0:31:48.040 Nobody ever that that might have been the strategic approach. Now, 0:31:48.280 --> 0:31:52.360 in hindsight, that might have been the strategic, the strategically 0:31:52.400 --> 0:31:53.120 sound approach. 0:31:53.320 --> 0:31:57.800 Yes, Now however, holy moly, yeah. 0:31:57.720 --> 0:31:59.760 You have to wait in line to jump that corner. 0:32:00.080 --> 0:32:04.120 Yeah, absolutely absolutely. It's an easy to get tagged because 0:32:04.120 --> 0:32:10.320 it's all private land with very little access. So you know, 0:32:10.640 --> 0:32:14.560 now that corner crossing is highly publicized. I guarantee there's 0:32:14.560 --> 0:32:15.600 going to be more traffic. 0:32:15.960 --> 0:32:20.840 Yeah, if you're just playing, If if the landowners just 0:32:20.880 --> 0:32:24.920 playing for himself and isn't interested in policy, which is 0:32:24.920 --> 0:32:29.880 probably true, you're right. He should have said, boys, you 0:32:29.960 --> 0:32:32.200 got me. But here's the deal. 0:32:32.560 --> 0:32:36.520 Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna build a quantt hut over here, 0:32:36.600 --> 0:32:40.120 and you guys can park in it, and then you 0:32:40.200 --> 0:32:42.440 come back out to the county road and you corner 0:32:42.480 --> 0:32:44.720 cross You let me know when you're gonna be out there. 0:32:44.840 --> 0:32:46.440 I'll let you know when I'm gonna be out there. 0:32:46.480 --> 0:32:48.120 And this is just gonna be our little thing. 0:32:48.200 --> 0:32:49.960 Exactly exactly. 0:32:50.080 --> 0:32:51.000 That's the long game. 0:32:51.160 --> 0:32:55.280 So that's good. That's some good insight. Cal I should 0:32:55.320 --> 0:32:56.960 have brought that up a long time ago. 0:32:58.360 --> 0:33:01.640 On facebook interesting points of this, and I'm very much 0:33:01.680 --> 0:33:04.680 burying the lead here. So obviously we got a great 0:33:04.760 --> 0:33:12.040 opinion from this judge, and that opinion stands, and these 0:33:12.040 --> 0:33:15.960 guys aren't going to get dinged with anything in this 0:33:16.120 --> 0:33:20.280 particular civil suit, which is great. However, it does not 0:33:20.560 --> 0:33:25.240 mean that, Okay, now corner crossing's totally legal. There still 0:33:25.280 --> 0:33:29.760 exists some gray area. But this opinion says based off 0:33:29.880 --> 0:33:33.840 of several cases, and I found it very interesting that 0:33:33.920 --> 0:33:37.360 he also looked at cases within the state of Wyoming 0:33:38.760 --> 0:33:43.640 and he didn't cite the Unlawful Enclosures Act, which is 0:33:43.920 --> 0:33:46.320 a federal act, and I thought, this is exactly what 0:33:46.400 --> 0:33:48.680 this is going to be totally based off of. But 0:33:48.800 --> 0:33:53.840 this judge, which says that you cannot create an obstruction 0:33:54.840 --> 0:34:02.600 that limits the public's ability to access public land. So 0:34:02.680 --> 0:34:09.320 at this corner, this common corner, an agent of Eshelman 0:34:09.880 --> 0:34:12.200 put to t posts and I think a little length 0:34:12.239 --> 0:34:15.799 to chain right at the corner that was supposed to 0:34:16.200 --> 0:34:19.919 be enough of an obstacle to where these gentlemen would 0:34:19.920 --> 0:34:23.600 have had to come into contact with private property in 0:34:23.719 --> 0:34:26.520 order to get over private property. So they went through 0:34:26.520 --> 0:34:33.760 the I would say, a very ceremonial effort of creating 0:34:33.800 --> 0:34:36.840 a ladder to go over to tea posts that don't 0:34:36.880 --> 0:34:39.960 connect to anything, right, Like a lot of folks could 0:34:39.960 --> 0:34:44.560 have jumped it. But they did this in order to 0:34:44.680 --> 0:34:48.400 signal to the land agents that hey, we're here to 0:34:48.480 --> 0:34:52.000 do this and we're going to do this ridiculous thing 0:34:52.160 --> 0:34:55.640 to show you that our intent is such and it's 0:34:55.640 --> 0:35:04.360 not to mess with your private property in any way. 0:35:07.680 --> 0:35:10.080 People are really getting hung up on this ladder thing, 0:35:10.440 --> 0:35:12.160 like that's what you have to do. 0:35:13.560 --> 0:35:16.280 Yeah, oh yeah, he's a defense maker professional. 0:35:16.520 --> 0:35:20.839 Yeah, so he's like, it wasn't hard, but people are 0:35:20.840 --> 0:35:25.240 really getting hung up on this ladder. And a ladder, 0:35:25.760 --> 0:35:28.560 like I said, it's a symbol. It's not necessary to 0:35:28.760 --> 0:35:29.360 corner cross. 0:35:29.480 --> 0:35:32.000 Was he talking about let us have the ladder. Do 0:35:32.120 --> 0:35:33.080 we follow up with him on that? 0:35:33.280 --> 0:35:35.239 Yeah, yeah, I'm in touch, but I think that we 0:35:35.280 --> 0:35:37.280 should sell some ladders on the website. 0:35:37.320 --> 0:35:39.879 Well no, but can't he I want that ladder. Yeah, 0:35:40.080 --> 0:35:42.880 I mean we have the we got weights and fish. 0:35:43.080 --> 0:35:43.680 Yeah, I know. 0:35:43.719 --> 0:35:45.720 We're adding to our you know, we're going to amass 0:35:45.840 --> 0:35:49.440 so many things. Facts are going to be incredibly valuable 0:35:49.440 --> 0:35:51.839 at a Sotheby's auction for our own auction. 0:35:52.360 --> 0:35:56.480 So another case known as the McKay the you went 0:35:56.560 --> 0:36:02.440 to development company case back in nineteen fourteen, is ruling 0:36:02.680 --> 0:36:09.080 that Justice fourteen, nineteen fourteen. What was going on back then, Well, 0:36:10.440 --> 0:36:13.239 it is. It's just an extension of what was going 0:36:13.280 --> 0:36:19.759 on when this checkerboard system of land was laid out. 0:36:20.960 --> 0:36:22.680 It was probably not a hunting thing. It was probably 0:36:22.719 --> 0:36:23.560 whatever else. 0:36:24.880 --> 0:36:28.360 Crazing. This is grazing, right, but just as it is now. 0:36:28.920 --> 0:36:32.799 It's you know, the landscape changes with new ownership coming in. 0:36:33.239 --> 0:36:36.560 People put up signs or three strand barber fence where 0:36:36.560 --> 0:36:38.279 it used to be open range. And I think that's 0:36:38.320 --> 0:36:40.440 what the case was here. So a guy was just 0:36:40.480 --> 0:36:45.040 moving his sheep to his historic grazing area on public land. 0:36:45.840 --> 0:36:48.319 The new landowner came in and took issue with that, 0:36:48.840 --> 0:36:52.960 and somehow, some way I should really read up on this. 0:36:54.480 --> 0:37:01.239 McKay took his right to access his public grazing allotment 0:37:02.880 --> 0:37:06.360 to the court and won. So that's another case. And 0:37:06.360 --> 0:37:08.640 then there's a nineteen seventy four case from the Tenth 0:37:08.680 --> 0:37:15.200 Circuit Court that was cited as well. And again these 0:37:15.239 --> 0:37:23.040 come down to damages right to access the public's right 0:37:23.120 --> 0:37:30.239 to access public ground. And a new case that just 0:37:30.280 --> 0:37:33.719 passed here, not case, but a new law in Wyoming 0:37:34.520 --> 0:37:39.480 that clarified some trustpass language without it was kind of 0:37:39.520 --> 0:37:42.640 an interesting thing because it didn't directly name corner crossing, 0:37:42.920 --> 0:37:47.880 but it absolutely pertains to corner crossing and proof in 0:37:47.920 --> 0:37:52.000 the pudding here is justice Goobdall used it. Where the 0:37:52.000 --> 0:37:58.680 Wyoming legislature passed law actually passed this year traveling through 0:37:58.719 --> 0:38:03.680 private property to access public land. This clarified what traveling 0:38:03.760 --> 0:38:07.759 through required physically touching or driving on the surface of 0:38:07.880 --> 0:38:10.920 private property, which would not apply to the hunters in 0:38:11.000 --> 0:38:16.839 this case. And so all these little building blocks kind 0:38:16.880 --> 0:38:22.719 of build up right now because of the This is 0:38:23.000 --> 0:38:30.279 a relatively narrow opinion. According to a mutual friend of 0:38:30.320 --> 0:38:32.960 ours who used to be with the BLM is now 0:38:33.000 --> 0:38:36.359 at the National Wildlife Federation. But because it does lay 0:38:36.400 --> 0:38:41.759 out like trespassing or walking from corner to corner in 0:38:41.840 --> 0:38:47.920 the checkerboard fashion versus a corner that's not in the 0:38:48.000 --> 0:38:51.560 checkerboard fashion, which is kind of confusing to me. But anyway, 0:38:51.880 --> 0:38:57.799 that's where we're at right now. It's I think a 0:38:57.880 --> 0:39:02.399 very positive thing. And everyone's pretty much in agreement that 0:39:03.400 --> 0:39:08.759 this landowner is going to appeal the case and try 0:39:08.760 --> 0:39:11.600 to take it to a higher court. So it's not 0:39:11.880 --> 0:39:19.160 over yet. If it's this is a you know, these 0:39:19.160 --> 0:39:23.919 are like federal actions. These are cases that would very 0:39:23.960 --> 0:39:28.440 well be cited by somebody else who is in this 0:39:28.560 --> 0:39:31.919 legal position, even if it is not in the state 0:39:31.920 --> 0:39:37.239 of Wyoming, which makes it a national thing. So tons 0:39:37.280 --> 0:39:42.120 of checkerboard here in Montana, Arizona, Utah, Wyoming. 0:39:42.719 --> 0:39:45.160 So I got a handful of thoughts that I'm going 0:39:45.200 --> 0:39:51.160 to given no particular order about on this issue. There 0:39:51.239 --> 0:39:59.839 was a little detail merged recently where the the misso 0:40:00.200 --> 0:40:03.239 corner crossers who've been who were in our I was 0:40:03.239 --> 0:40:05.360 gonna say, who've been here? They've been in our old studio. 0:40:05.480 --> 0:40:07.040 So we had we had a couple of the Missouri 0:40:07.080 --> 0:40:12.560 Corner Crossers on the podcast, they had their on X 0:40:13.920 --> 0:40:19.319 account subpoenaed, okay, which is is very common. So like 0:40:19.360 --> 0:40:21.640 game wardens people, you know, they can they can subpoena 0:40:21.680 --> 0:40:24.839 that kind of information. And there emerged is it being 0:40:24.880 --> 0:40:29.600 called waypoint number six? Yes, yeah, So when they had 0:40:29.640 --> 0:40:35.279 their on X account subpoenaed, here's this waypoint that was 0:40:35.360 --> 0:40:41.080 made very definitely, well not made. A pin was dropped 0:40:41.320 --> 0:40:43.080 very definitely on private property. 0:40:43.520 --> 0:40:45.719 Yeah, And these pins when you drop them are are 0:40:45.800 --> 0:40:48.359 dated and everything, so you. 0:40:48.320 --> 0:40:49.640 Could drop it from your house. 0:40:49.880 --> 0:40:56.319 Well that's that's the rub is they can't you know, 0:40:57.280 --> 0:41:01.960 you can't say for certain that the pin was created. 0:41:02.120 --> 0:41:04.200 There was also a lot of like apparently a lot 0:41:04.239 --> 0:41:08.560 of deleting of waypoints. But there was a pin that 0:41:08.719 --> 0:41:12.000 was made very much on private property, and that's been 0:41:12.040 --> 0:41:13.799 brought up and brought up and brought up, but it 0:41:13.800 --> 0:41:16.760 can't definitively be said. Was that pin made by someone 0:41:16.760 --> 0:41:21.000 who who hit mark my location? Or was that pin 0:41:21.320 --> 0:41:26.919 moved or just dropped for whatever reason, dropped a pin 0:41:27.480 --> 0:41:31.520 overround the guy's place? Hard to say. So that was 0:41:31.560 --> 0:41:35.680 like an interesting little wrinkle that I was watching and 0:41:36.040 --> 0:41:37.400 I think it might be it's like, you know, like 0:41:37.440 --> 0:41:39.960 the Grassy Knoll. I think it's like waypoint six. 0:41:41.400 --> 0:41:44.239 It was like, we don't I guess I don't know 0:41:44.280 --> 0:41:45.640 if we need to go in it. But like I'm 0:41:45.640 --> 0:41:49.719 cleaning up waypoints and trying to use folders mainly, so 0:41:49.800 --> 0:41:52.080 when I'm like showing off stuff on my computer, I'm 0:41:52.080 --> 0:41:53.920 not showing people all the other places I go. 0:41:55.040 --> 0:41:57.120 Where if I look at this computer's like awesome spot, 0:41:57.280 --> 0:41:58.279 awesome spot. 0:41:58.280 --> 0:42:01.440 Right exactly like you're sitting down Spencer Newhart and he's like, yeah, 0:42:01.480 --> 0:42:04.920 but what about this Turkey waypoint? And we're not talking 0:42:04.960 --> 0:42:08.520 about that, And I'm like, I can't hide half my 0:42:08.560 --> 0:42:13.800 computer anyway. So you know, there's a lot of general 0:42:13.840 --> 0:42:17.080 waypoints out there, and I'm like looking, I'm like, oh, 0:42:17.080 --> 0:42:20.279 it's totally landlocked, like totally landlocked. There's no way to 0:42:20.280 --> 0:42:23.640 get in there. Or now I've been there and that's 0:42:23.680 --> 0:42:25.920 not actually a county road, it's a private road. Or 0:42:26.040 --> 0:42:29.239 there's all these things where it's like I don't know, 0:42:29.360 --> 0:42:32.399 we're gonna head this way. Here's the waypoint, Steve, you'll 0:42:32.400 --> 0:42:35.200 figure it out type of thing right where you're and 0:42:35.239 --> 0:42:36.799 then there's other ways to do it too where you're 0:42:36.800 --> 0:42:41.000 like zoomed out far enough to where you're like fat fingering, or. 0:42:41.040 --> 0:42:44.839 You could say like, hey, I saw a strutter right 0:42:44.920 --> 0:42:49.719 here if you get on like but you can get 0:42:49.719 --> 0:42:51.920 on public and just try to get as close to 0:42:51.960 --> 0:42:54.200 where I saw this strutter from my car, so then 0:42:54.239 --> 0:42:55.080 you might have a way. 0:42:55.560 --> 0:42:57.160 I don't know there was a ton of that this 0:42:57.239 --> 0:42:58.200 spring just from me. 0:42:58.719 --> 0:43:00.279 Yeah, I'm just saying it's like a I have a 0:43:00.280 --> 0:43:02.600 bunch of white points like that where they're on private, 0:43:02.640 --> 0:43:05.879 but it's like I see a turkey here on private, sure, 0:43:05.960 --> 0:43:06.960 but I'm on public. 0:43:07.080 --> 0:43:09.440 Well, if your stuff, if your account ever gets subpoened, 0:43:09.800 --> 0:43:11.839 someone might say, what were you doing all over this 0:43:12.880 --> 0:43:13.480 guy's place? 0:43:13.840 --> 0:43:15.640 Well, they can clarify this. 0:43:16.719 --> 0:43:22.760 You can refer interesting wrinkle number one number two. People 0:43:22.840 --> 0:43:28.439 keep sitting back waiting for precedent setting or waiting for 0:43:28.760 --> 0:43:34.560 it to be to DA here's clarification. But the fact 0:43:34.600 --> 0:43:41.840 that that that like the rules aren't being rewritten yet, right, 0:43:42.000 --> 0:43:44.320 it's just a matter of It's just a matter of 0:43:44.400 --> 0:43:48.719 even if the law isn't clarified, if it's not publicly clarified, 0:43:49.000 --> 0:43:53.720 you know, in in the statutes, it is. It increasingly 0:43:54.000 --> 0:43:57.040 is what prosecutor is going to want to take this on, 0:43:58.120 --> 0:43:59.120 and it might be. 0:43:58.920 --> 0:44:01.880 Better have nothing going on in your county aside from this. 0:44:02.400 --> 0:44:05.560 It might be that when you go look at the statutes, 0:44:06.120 --> 0:44:10.200 it might still be confusing, but you would then look 0:44:10.239 --> 0:44:15.400 at the prosecution history and say the legal language is confusing. 0:44:15.840 --> 0:44:20.520 Yet no one and they've sure tried, No one has 0:44:20.520 --> 0:44:25.279 been successfully prosecuted. So it's like looking for this to 0:44:25.360 --> 0:44:28.200 all of a sudden where looking for the issue to 0:44:28.239 --> 0:44:33.239 get legally clarified might not happen to anybody's satisfaction, and 0:44:33.280 --> 0:44:36.920 it might just be inference. When someone says, can I 0:44:38.160 --> 0:44:40.200 because I don't understand when I read the law, I 0:44:40.200 --> 0:44:43.359 can't tell if it's okay not okay? Or why does 0:44:43.400 --> 0:44:45.759 the state recommend against it? What the hell does that mean? 0:44:46.239 --> 0:44:48.600 And they need point. One might point and say, well, 0:44:48.880 --> 0:44:53.640 here's the history of people trying to prosecute this, up 0:44:53.640 --> 0:44:55.799 to you if you really feel like going through all that, 0:44:55.840 --> 0:44:59.479 But generally you're like, so far to date, no one's 0:44:59.520 --> 0:45:01.319 been no one's been hung for it. 0:45:02.000 --> 0:45:06.000 I like to point out also that right now it's 0:45:06.440 --> 0:45:14.000 very much a motivated foot access only situation, and I 0:45:14.040 --> 0:45:18.920 think the longer this goes on, the door gets whiter 0:45:19.000 --> 0:45:22.960 and whiter to like, well, I have a high step 0:45:22.960 --> 0:45:27.319 in quarter horse, I'll guarantee I can put all four 0:45:27.360 --> 0:45:30.120 feet from public to public on my quarter horse as 0:45:30.120 --> 0:45:34.520 we walk across this pan oh right, or you know 0:45:34.600 --> 0:45:37.640 the means of transportation, because if you go through the 0:45:37.680 --> 0:45:40.879 threads and all the talking online about this, it's like, well, 0:45:40.920 --> 0:45:43.480 let's just make an easement on everyone, right, Well, was 0:45:43.520 --> 0:45:46.440 it a five foot wide easement? Is it forty inch 0:45:46.800 --> 0:45:50.040 easement enough for you know, a small trail side by side? 0:45:50.680 --> 0:45:53.000 Like what you know, where do we go from here? 0:45:53.719 --> 0:45:58.080 And you know, again, if I was a big land 0:45:58.120 --> 0:46:03.360 owner with the public interest in mind, and also you 0:46:03.400 --> 0:46:06.720 know all those things that I mentioned of, like wanting 0:46:06.760 --> 0:46:09.960 to protect like good grass stock, or be free from 0:46:09.960 --> 0:46:13.960 worrying about fire danger all those things, I'd just be like, 0:46:14.120 --> 0:46:18.840 let's just let's just not let's just just keep it 0:46:18.880 --> 0:46:21.359 how it is. The folks that want to figure it out, 0:46:21.360 --> 0:46:25.120 they can figure it out, and that's just gonna be 0:46:25.160 --> 0:46:26.320 the best thing for everybody. 0:46:26.640 --> 0:46:32.319 Uh Uh. Number three of my five wrinkles or things 0:46:32.360 --> 0:46:35.759 that I've occur to me as I think about this, 0:46:36.400 --> 0:46:43.439 accuracy fences aren't on surveyed lines for the most part. 0:46:43.480 --> 0:46:45.400 A lot of times fences are a guess, it's a 0:46:45.400 --> 0:46:48.279 matter of convenience. This is where we always understood it 0:46:48.360 --> 0:46:52.239 to be. You cannot go out. Let's say, all of 0:46:52.239 --> 0:46:55.720 a sudden, the law was clarified, very definitely. Corner crossing 0:46:55.760 --> 0:46:58.840 is legal law as you don't step foot on private land. Dude. 0:47:00.280 --> 0:47:03.400 This corner we're talking about Wyoming was a surveyed corner 0:47:04.080 --> 0:47:08.560 that had a marker on it. You cannot go out 0:47:08.680 --> 0:47:15.239 and use mapping apps fence placement and be that you're 0:47:15.320 --> 0:47:18.640 right on the money. I picture a future in which 0:47:18.840 --> 0:47:26.359 access proponents are spending money surveying corners, and even that 0:47:26.560 --> 0:47:29.960 is gonna get touchy because those corners are not gonna 0:47:29.960 --> 0:47:32.080 be where these fences that have been there for one 0:47:32.120 --> 0:47:35.480 hundred years stand. They're just not They're just not. 0:47:35.719 --> 0:47:40.600 I wanted one time was curious about a corner in 0:47:40.800 --> 0:47:44.759 eastern Montana and went to that corner because. 0:47:46.640 --> 0:47:49.359 Was it like, we're so close to the road. 0:47:49.520 --> 0:47:53.640 Is man, it's close to a road. 0:47:54.360 --> 0:47:56.759 You can either go around and it takes a lot 0:47:56.760 --> 0:47:58.319 of miles and a lot of time to get into 0:47:58.320 --> 0:48:01.600 this area, or it's like you can hop a corner 0:48:02.239 --> 0:48:04.240 close to a road, and I was just like curious 0:48:04.280 --> 0:48:06.279 about it. So I went to that corner and I 0:48:06.360 --> 0:48:09.520 found a corner pin looked at my on X and 0:48:09.560 --> 0:48:13.560 the corner pin was not like on X in the 0:48:13.560 --> 0:48:14.920 corner pin were off slightly. 0:48:15.280 --> 0:48:18.160 Yeah, but I mean, yeah, they don't advertise as being 0:48:18.239 --> 0:48:21.000 like it's like that. You don't like settle. You don't 0:48:21.040 --> 0:48:23.080 pull up an app on your phone and settle like 0:48:23.200 --> 0:48:26.520 legal disputes about property lines. I know, cause like mine, 0:48:26.640 --> 0:48:29.279 if that's the case, my driveway is a little bit 0:48:29.320 --> 0:48:32.759 out in the road. But I don't think it is. Yeah, right, Well, 0:48:32.880 --> 0:48:35.160 when you're hunting on a grand scale, you're not like, 0:48:35.360 --> 0:48:38.200 you know, they're not saying like, oh yeah, accurate to 0:48:38.320 --> 0:48:41.200 point to a quarter inch. Yeah, it's just not what 0:48:41.280 --> 0:48:44.680 it's it's not it's not its intention for people to 0:48:44.719 --> 0:48:49.680 think that you're just gonna run around willy nilly jumping fences. 0:48:49.760 --> 0:48:51.920 If this really becomes like a contentious thing and you're 0:48:51.920 --> 0:48:54.359 just gonna really nearly run around jumping fences thinking you're 0:48:54.360 --> 0:48:59.040 never to step and foot, it's like I wouldn't trust anything. Yeah, 0:48:59.080 --> 0:49:02.080 but a corner and that in this case, that had 0:49:02.120 --> 0:49:06.880 a corner mark number four. I like to point out 0:49:07.160 --> 0:49:09.760 these boys, these Missouri guys, this is like a detail 0:49:09.800 --> 0:49:19.200 that matters a lot to me. Asked and asked about, uh, 0:49:19.800 --> 0:49:21.399 can we do this? Can we do this? And we're 0:49:21.400 --> 0:49:25.879 told most and came out and said they're not doing 0:49:25.880 --> 0:49:31.480 anything wrong. Another officer came out from a different enforcement 0:49:31.520 --> 0:49:35.839 agency said they're not doing anything wrong. So they were 0:49:35.920 --> 0:49:39.480 doing like they did more due diligence on the issue 0:49:39.480 --> 0:49:42.160 than I've probably ever done on any access issue in 0:49:42.200 --> 0:49:47.480 my entire life and got completely mixed messaging. So in 0:49:47.560 --> 0:49:52.080 some ways, when they were talking about these guys being 0:49:52.520 --> 0:49:56.839 owing someone damages, I couldn't escape the feeling that there's 0:49:56.880 --> 0:50:01.040 a system that that that that failed them and being 0:50:01.040 --> 0:50:02.839 able to get a straight answer when you're really trying 0:50:02.840 --> 0:50:04.400 to go out and be like, well what about blank, 0:50:04.520 --> 0:50:07.919 everybody's like, oh, yeah, you can do that. I'm calling 0:50:07.960 --> 0:50:10.920 the cops. Cop comes out they can do that. Well, 0:50:10.920 --> 0:50:14.439 I'm gonna call a different cop that comes out and says, eh, 0:50:14.680 --> 0:50:17.200 let's try to arrest them. It's like, you can't do 0:50:17.320 --> 0:50:21.440 that to people. What was my last one? Oh, they 0:50:21.440 --> 0:50:27.840 weren't activists. They definitely your point about in hindsight to 0:50:27.840 --> 0:50:32.000 strike a deal with them. Like, I've always felt like 0:50:32.120 --> 0:50:34.840 I'm in dangerous waters when I try to bring up 0:50:34.920 --> 0:50:37.680 rolls of parks in relation to this situation. But like, 0:50:37.880 --> 0:50:41.400 they were not activists. They weren't trying to set precedent. 0:50:41.640 --> 0:50:44.600 They weren't trying to challenge precedent. They were legit Like, 0:50:44.640 --> 0:50:45.960 and I've met him, and I didn't think this is 0:50:46.000 --> 0:50:48.400 true until I met him. When I met him and 0:50:48.480 --> 0:50:50.160 heard the whole story from their mouths, I was like, 0:50:50.239 --> 0:50:54.280 these dudes were legitimately just going hunting and they probably 0:50:54.280 --> 0:50:58.680 would have never said a word to anybody. Yeah, we 0:50:58.680 --> 0:51:01.920 found a sweet spot. I'm not gonna tell anybody about it. 0:51:02.080 --> 0:51:05.120 They were not activists. No, people think they were activists. 0:51:05.120 --> 0:51:07.680 I assumed they were activists. They're not activists. 0:51:07.760 --> 0:51:10.919 Yeah, they basically had an over the counter tag opportunity 0:51:11.000 --> 0:51:13.959 as a non resident in an area that had good 0:51:14.040 --> 0:51:18.520 game populations. They have to drive all the way from Missouri. Like, 0:51:18.600 --> 0:51:21.360 these guys were not gonna all of a sudden to 0:51:21.440 --> 0:51:23.240 have twenty trucks at camp. 0:51:23.360 --> 0:51:26.240 Right, they're a bunch of middle ages love to hunt. 0:51:26.520 --> 0:51:27.440 Not activists, you. 0:51:27.440 --> 0:51:30.040 Know, but you could picture it being activist though, right, 0:51:30.280 --> 0:51:32.560 you can picture someone saying we're gonna push this to 0:51:32.600 --> 0:51:35.080 the Supreme Court and I'm gonna call the police and 0:51:35.080 --> 0:51:36.600 tell them to be there at eight am. When I 0:51:36.680 --> 0:51:40.400 jumped the corner and I'm gonna drive this home. By god, 0:51:41.320 --> 0:51:43.200 they were like, yeah, man, I think he's probably some 0:51:43.200 --> 0:51:47.319 good help back there if we like call around and 0:51:47.360 --> 0:51:49.719 clarify that what we think is true is true when 0:51:49.840 --> 0:51:52.799 going to hunt and holy cow, has it become talk 0:51:52.840 --> 0:51:56.080 about department of like unintended consequences? My god? 0:51:57.360 --> 0:52:01.000 Yeah, absolutely, that's my final point. But also, I mean, 0:52:01.080 --> 0:52:03.960 hats off to them too, because they weren't going to 0:52:04.120 --> 0:52:07.080 just like swallow a bad pill, right. They're like, well, no, 0:52:07.120 --> 0:52:08.200 that we are right. 0:52:09.080 --> 0:52:12.000 Yeah, they weren't activists, but they weren't suckers. Yeah, so 0:52:12.040 --> 0:52:14.080 when someone tried to stick it to them, they're like, Okay, 0:52:14.080 --> 0:52:17.600 I'm not. I mean, I'm confident in what I I'm 0:52:17.640 --> 0:52:20.240 confident that what I found out is true. I'm confident 0:52:20.400 --> 0:52:24.640 about the research. I'm confident about the informed assumptions I made, 0:52:24.880 --> 0:52:27.400 and to the to date they've been born out legally. 0:52:27.800 --> 0:52:31.520 Yeah, yeah, we do have to have to. I mean, 0:52:32.239 --> 0:52:36.120 Wyoming Chapter of Backcountry Hunters and Anglers for their expediency 0:52:36.200 --> 0:52:40.759 and back in these boys and oh and making sure 0:52:40.360 --> 0:52:42.799 that we're going to figure it out. I mean, that's 0:52:42.960 --> 0:52:46.880 that's amazing. I do have to say, I think this, 0:52:46.880 --> 0:52:50.720 this little story that I've told before is like really 0:52:50.760 --> 0:52:53.520 paints an interesting picture when we talk about because it's 0:52:53.560 --> 0:52:57.120 just so easy to simplify things into like land owner 0:52:59.080 --> 0:53:03.520 public land opposite sides of things. Right. Well, his buddy 0:53:03.560 --> 0:53:06.000 of mine, Leo, I used to guide on his place. 0:53:06.000 --> 0:53:10.360 He had an enormous chunk of Petroleum County, sweetheart of 0:53:10.360 --> 0:53:15.560 a human being, awesome, awesome guy, and I used to 0:53:15.600 --> 0:53:17.200 ride around with him all the time. He'd come down 0:53:17.239 --> 0:53:20.720 to our camp. We outfitted our base was on his place, 0:53:21.880 --> 0:53:24.239 and just to like nothing's black and white, right, he 0:53:24.719 --> 0:53:28.040 is a huge private landowner. He's got a bunch of 0:53:28.080 --> 0:53:32.200 his property in our private land public access program, which 0:53:32.239 --> 0:53:35.359 you know he can't outfit on. But we had our 0:53:35.360 --> 0:53:37.799 camp on a chunk of private that wasn't in his 0:53:38.880 --> 0:53:42.200 block management chunk. So you know, we had a sweet 0:53:42.200 --> 0:53:46.239 spot right there. So he had private, private access, he 0:53:46.280 --> 0:53:49.520 had private access open to the public. Truth be known, 0:53:49.520 --> 0:53:50.880 if he ever knocked on his door, he was just 0:53:50.920 --> 0:53:56.120 gonna say yes anyway, access. But he'd come down, he'd 0:53:56.239 --> 0:53:59.000 pick me up in the truck and we'd go just 0:53:59.360 --> 0:54:01.879 he'd want to stuff and I'd open gates for him, right, 0:54:01.960 --> 0:54:07.560 like very normal deal out there. And and I was 0:54:07.600 --> 0:54:11.080 always interested in learning more of the country. And I 0:54:11.120 --> 0:54:19.520 finally got a GPS and we came up to It's 0:54:19.600 --> 0:54:24.319 interesting because it's a state section aground, but the new 0:54:24.560 --> 0:54:29.400 lease on that state section was the first person to 0:54:29.440 --> 0:54:35.120 fence it, and the fence was ended up taking about 0:54:35.160 --> 0:54:41.120 a quarter mile of my buddy's private property. Like you 0:54:41.120 --> 0:54:45.160 could stand on the corner post and you're like, man, this, 0:54:45.440 --> 0:54:47.879 I'm like, hey, you look at this. I mean, look 0:54:48.000 --> 0:54:53.440 how far the fence is on to your place right 0:54:53.520 --> 0:54:57.440 on me're like GPS plat map the whole nine yards 0:54:57.640 --> 0:54:59.680 right because I was like doing my homework driving around 0:54:59.680 --> 0:55:04.720 with him, and he goes, huh. He goes, well, Ryan 0:55:05.960 --> 0:55:09.040 can on the whole damn world. And just like away 0:55:09.160 --> 0:55:11.319 we went and nothing was said. You know, it's like, 0:55:11.960 --> 0:55:15.120 well can the can on at all? You know, it's 0:55:15.200 --> 0:55:15.959 just like, oh my. 0:55:15.880 --> 0:55:18.399 God, Krinda's deleted on me the thing that I'm most 0:55:18.520 --> 0:55:21.400 dying to talk about, but we're short on time. Well, no, 0:55:21.800 --> 0:55:23.080 let me just hit it real quick, because this is 0:55:23.080 --> 0:55:25.720 the most interesting you want to talk about legal wrinkles. 0:55:26.600 --> 0:55:28.920 It's the weirdest thing when you go for if to 0:55:28.960 --> 0:55:30.319 say went out, there's never went and bought a gun. 0:55:30.360 --> 0:55:31.919 When you go buy a gun from an f FL 0:55:32.239 --> 0:55:35.000 a federal Firearms licensee, you come in and do a 0:55:35.080 --> 0:55:40.000 question a questionnaire, ten questions, eleven questions, stuff such as 0:55:40.080 --> 0:55:42.640 are there any restraining orders against you? Have you ever 0:55:42.680 --> 0:55:47.040 renounced your citizenship? Are you a fugitive from justice? Are 0:55:47.080 --> 0:55:49.800 you a felon? Are you addicted to drugs? 0:55:50.400 --> 0:55:53.600 Okay, there's like child support questions on there or something. 0:55:53.560 --> 0:55:55.040 I don't believe. I don't I can't think of a 0:55:55.080 --> 0:55:55.960 child support question. 0:55:56.160 --> 0:55:57.960 There may there may be like are you owing? 0:55:58.080 --> 0:56:05.200 I don't remember that? Not look him up? Well hunter Biden, dude, 0:56:05.200 --> 0:56:07.000 I'd never thought in a millionaires I would say that 0:56:07.160 --> 0:56:14.840 name in public because I like write, I don't like 0:56:14.920 --> 0:56:18.080 to go near politics that doesn't intersect with our areas 0:56:18.080 --> 0:56:23.640 of focus. However, he just intersected a thing that I'm 0:56:23.640 --> 0:56:29.360 interested in. He bought a gun in twenty eighteen, Okay, 0:56:32.239 --> 0:56:35.279 where a time when he has openly admitted he was 0:56:35.360 --> 0:56:41.799 a crack addict. Soften. When he filled out his FFL form, 0:56:41.880 --> 0:56:45.400 he said that he's not addicted to drugs, but then 0:56:45.520 --> 0:56:48.680 clarified that he is addicted to drugs in his book, 0:56:49.400 --> 0:56:55.600 in his book which puts him that he lied on 0:56:55.640 --> 0:57:02.080 the FFL form. So now his many enemies are coming 0:57:02.120 --> 0:57:05.759 after him to be like, dude, you lied on the 0:57:05.840 --> 0:57:11.200 gun control form. And his legal representatives are saying that 0:57:11.320 --> 0:57:16.000 if this becomes a legal exposure to him, he's gonna 0:57:16.040 --> 0:57:19.760 sue on behalf of his Second Amendment rights that a 0:57:19.840 --> 0:57:24.640 crack addict should certainly well be able to get a gun. 0:57:26.160 --> 0:57:29.760 Talk about like landing in a landing in a very 0:57:29.880 --> 0:57:35.840 unexpected spot, almost as almost as bewildering as I was 0:57:35.880 --> 0:57:38.800 when I saw it into that white oak and all 0:57:38.800 --> 0:57:44.000 that water came out, A lot of water came out 0:57:44.000 --> 0:57:46.120 of that tree. What was happening there? 0:57:47.720 --> 0:57:51.400 Harlow tree? Uh huh, big cavity in the middle. A 0:57:51.400 --> 0:57:54.720 lot of times the pith, the heartwood, the tree will 0:57:55.240 --> 0:57:59.160 decompose over time. And you know that's important for all 0:57:59.240 --> 0:58:02.080 kinds of critters that use those cavities, and the space 0:58:02.120 --> 0:58:10.320 inside as habitat is foldable water and everything not to me, no, uh, 0:58:10.520 --> 0:58:13.360 And so you know stem flow water runs down through 0:58:13.400 --> 0:58:15.800 the you know, up lands on the canopy, runs down 0:58:15.840 --> 0:58:18.120 the branches and finds its way into that. 0:58:18.240 --> 0:58:20.280 So you think it was it was rain water hiding 0:58:20.280 --> 0:58:22.160 in there. Yeah, filled up a hollow. 0:58:23.920 --> 0:58:27.520 Why are just trying to push your buddy's buttons now, Steve. 0:58:27.440 --> 0:58:29.560 Oh, you haven't done anything yet. He's gonna be this 0:58:29.840 --> 0:58:32.240 next one is not gonna rile them up. Okay, explain 0:58:32.400 --> 0:58:35.040 how why Like when you go look at a spruce tree, 0:58:35.560 --> 0:58:42.160 fir tree, okay, Christmas trees. Yeah, why are they shaped 0:58:42.200 --> 0:58:42.960 like a cone? 0:58:43.480 --> 0:58:46.360 Yeah? There, it's uh, it's a story of dominance and 0:58:46.400 --> 0:58:48.640 control and uh. 0:58:49.040 --> 0:58:54.760 This ties back to what I was just talking about transitions. 0:58:54.840 --> 0:58:58.760 I'm listening. I'm listening now. It's uh, it really begins 0:58:58.760 --> 0:59:01.160 with that. And you know, the imperative of the tree 0:59:01.160 --> 0:59:04.200 to grow up towards what the sun right, and so 0:59:06.160 --> 0:59:11.960 there's it's like hormones that control that are activated in 0:59:12.000 --> 0:59:14.360 the in the top of the tree, the growing tip, 0:59:14.440 --> 0:59:17.440 the leader, right. Uh, there's a leader at the top 0:59:17.640 --> 0:59:21.400 on the spruce and firs in particular, they all have them. 0:59:21.400 --> 0:59:23.800 But at the top and at the ends of each 0:59:23.840 --> 0:59:29.480 branch there is a bud that's enclosed next year's leaves 0:59:29.520 --> 0:59:34.680 and shoot growth that is controlled the opening and the 0:59:34.720 --> 0:59:39.439 extension of which is controlled by the Each of those 0:59:40.200 --> 0:59:43.760 leaders exerts control over all the other buds below and 0:59:43.800 --> 0:59:47.800 behind it. And so the leader at the top of 0:59:47.840 --> 0:59:50.760 the tree is exerting control over the ones just below. 0:59:50.800 --> 0:59:53.720 You look at the leader growth this u this summer 0:59:53.880 --> 0:59:56.600 on any of these trees, and you'll note an incredible 0:59:56.600 --> 1:00:00.760 pattern is that the top has that that noble length 1:00:00.840 --> 1:00:03.160 with the shoot length is longer on the top than 1:00:03.200 --> 1:00:05.920 it is on any of the subordinate branches. And that's 1:00:06.000 --> 1:00:08.000 because the leader is saying, I'm the leader, and I'm 1:00:08.040 --> 1:00:11.640 going up, and it exerts this hormonal control over the 1:00:11.840 --> 1:00:14.000 It sort of regulates the growth of the others to 1:00:14.120 --> 1:00:17.680 keep them from growing out sideways and trying to get 1:00:17.760 --> 1:00:19.640 up above it. Right, So it's it's this. 1:00:19.960 --> 1:00:22.760 But it's competing against its own self. Yeah, you can 1:00:22.840 --> 1:00:26.840 see it competing like it is, right, it's an organism. 1:00:27.880 --> 1:00:30.560 It's like a single individual. Sure you can see it 1:00:30.600 --> 1:00:33.760 competing against its neighbors time, but just a weird way 1:00:33.760 --> 1:00:35.760 to express at the top of the tree. But I 1:00:35.800 --> 1:00:39.040 guess it's like an ordered exactly it's ordered because it 1:00:39.080 --> 1:00:41.920 would be for one of the other branches to get 1:00:42.000 --> 1:00:45.120 uppity would be damaging to the whole tree. 1:00:44.880 --> 1:00:47.200 Right, because it's not really going in the right direction 1:00:47.440 --> 1:00:49.880 we need to get above. It's in fact, a way 1:00:49.920 --> 1:00:54.760 of ensuring or maximizing competitive edge over its neighbors is 1:00:54.800 --> 1:00:57.240 by making sure this the shoot, the leader is the 1:00:57.320 --> 1:01:00.280 leader and can really climb and get up above the 1:01:00.640 --> 1:01:04.120 competing plants around it, right, And so that's really what 1:01:04.160 --> 1:01:08.120 it is. It's just this pattern of control that, based 1:01:08.160 --> 1:01:13.480 on the way those conifer species are built, results in 1:01:13.520 --> 1:01:18.360 this sort of conical form. And then we can get 1:01:18.360 --> 1:01:20.600 into well what good is that? And that's a fun 1:01:20.720 --> 1:01:23.680 question in all these tree questions, is like any given trait, 1:01:24.600 --> 1:01:26.320 why does people are Why is it this way? Why 1:01:26.320 --> 1:01:28.920 is it that way? Well do basic answers. One is 1:01:29.640 --> 1:01:32.840 it happened sort of a mutation genetically. It just sort 1:01:32.880 --> 1:01:34.960 of occurred, and there's no good reason for it to 1:01:35.000 --> 1:01:38.920 be eliminated through selection. It doesn't harm the tree though, 1:01:38.960 --> 1:01:41.520 it sort of sticks around. The other answer is because 1:01:41.520 --> 1:01:44.760 it confers some advantage to the tree, right, And so 1:01:45.400 --> 1:01:50.880 in this case you're growing up and having this form, 1:01:51.640 --> 1:01:53.920 it's easy to imagine, well, where do these grow and 1:01:54.160 --> 1:01:58.760 montane environments heavy snow loads, and it's really good for 1:01:58.840 --> 1:02:02.880 shedding snow mm as opposed to that shape all out 1:02:02.880 --> 1:02:06.640 here bushy, and then you get branch breakage and snow loading. 1:02:07.400 --> 1:02:08.439 So it's it's a means. 1:02:08.560 --> 1:02:10.920 That's a good point, man. They do slough snow real effectively. 1:02:11.000 --> 1:02:11.360 Wicked. 1:02:11.520 --> 1:02:13.080 Yeah, yeah, like when you get it, when you get 1:02:13.160 --> 1:02:16.000 like a June snowstorm, and all the deciduous trees are 1:02:16.000 --> 1:02:18.640 like snapping and limbs falling off from those things to 1:02:18.680 --> 1:02:19.200 shake it off. 1:02:20.120 --> 1:02:22.480 And so you know, it sort of starts with this 1:02:22.600 --> 1:02:25.440 hormonal control as sort of a growth regulation in the shape, 1:02:25.920 --> 1:02:29.840 and we can all imagine it confers some ability in 1:02:29.880 --> 1:02:34.040 their environments to kind of outcompete others and and actually 1:02:34.120 --> 1:02:36.760 just survive. First of all. Yep, it's the first order 1:02:36.800 --> 1:02:37.280 of business. 1:02:37.880 --> 1:02:42.520 I have a Colorado blue spruce that the top got 1:02:42.560 --> 1:02:45.240 busted out of it. It's chaos up there, exactly. And 1:02:45.240 --> 1:02:47.000 I've gotten up there and tried to tie a new 1:02:47.080 --> 1:02:50.400 dude in there to see if he could, Like, I 1:02:50.440 --> 1:02:51.960 tied him with a rope. See if you would like 1:02:52.000 --> 1:02:55.960 assume the dude it's chaos on the top of that 1:02:55.960 --> 1:02:57.400 tree I've given up on. 1:02:57.520 --> 1:02:59.640 That was the next point would exactly that, And you've 1:02:59.680 --> 1:03:04.720 experien inst it is that when something does in pines 1:03:04.800 --> 1:03:09.480 is a a weavil that often goes for the terminal 1:03:09.480 --> 1:03:12.400 shoot the leader. That's what did it, and they it 1:03:12.560 --> 1:03:14.840 kills it, and then it's chaos. As you describe it. 1:03:14.880 --> 1:03:17.600 They it looks like a crow, not a crowls. That's 1:03:17.640 --> 1:03:19.440 like on a sailboat. It looks like I mean like 1:03:19.560 --> 1:03:21.360 literally which is broom. 1:03:22.000 --> 1:03:25.520 And so what we do, uh in that circumstance in 1:03:25.560 --> 1:03:27.960 your yard or Christmas tree growers do it all the 1:03:28.000 --> 1:03:30.520 time is you share. And so when you have one 1:03:30.560 --> 1:03:32.520 that the leader that's broken off, you can get up 1:03:32.560 --> 1:03:35.280 in there and and just trim back that chaos a 1:03:35.320 --> 1:03:37.880 little bit and choose one. That's what I've advised countless 1:03:37.920 --> 1:03:39.840 landowners is, Oh, you know, it's not the end of 1:03:39.840 --> 1:03:43.240 the world. You can just choose that next best one 1:03:43.560 --> 1:03:46.560 that turns the secondary branch that was not the leader, 1:03:46.840 --> 1:03:48.680 but who has done pretty well and seems to be 1:03:48.760 --> 1:03:51.600 in a favorable position. Clip the other ones around it, 1:03:51.640 --> 1:03:54.560 take a third of their shoot elongation, clip it off, 1:03:55.000 --> 1:03:58.200 pruning chairs, and then that one that you left now 1:03:58.240 --> 1:04:01.480 has this advantage and it will what we call apical 1:04:01.560 --> 1:04:04.160 dominance and become the one the boss. 1:04:04.160 --> 1:04:09.520 Shoot, it's a great name for the episode. Yeah, apical dominance. 1:04:10.200 --> 1:04:13.840 Look for that new podcast feed Nice Joe Seth, here's 1:04:13.840 --> 1:04:14.320 a forester. 1:04:15.040 --> 1:04:18.600 We we discussed that already and I immediately knew I 1:04:18.680 --> 1:04:20.200 liked him for a reason. And now I know. 1:04:20.240 --> 1:04:21.760 Why did he tell you about the tests he had 1:04:21.800 --> 1:04:22.560 to take? Tellim about the. 1:04:22.520 --> 1:04:26.720 Test we had a I think it was it was 1:04:27.120 --> 1:04:31.439 it was dendro dendrology. The we had a twig test 1:04:31.480 --> 1:04:33.920 where yeah, like an I D test where they gave 1:04:33.920 --> 1:04:36.920 you a section of of twig from the leaves. Leaves 1:04:36.920 --> 1:04:41.200 are yeah, said for sockers, yead identify. I forget how 1:04:41.200 --> 1:04:43.240 many different species. Well it was a lot you had. 1:04:43.400 --> 1:04:45.479 I thought you said, it's like seventy or something like that. 1:04:46.120 --> 1:04:48.680 Yeah, it's something high like that. Yeah. Yeah, we had 1:04:48.720 --> 1:04:50.480 it just by the bud, just by the bud. 1:04:50.680 --> 1:04:54.240 It's classic. We had our dendro final at the University 1:04:54.240 --> 1:04:56.240 of Vermont when I back in another century. 1:04:56.400 --> 1:04:56.560 Uh. 1:04:56.600 --> 1:04:59.160 It was one hundred uh samples and so it was 1:04:59.240 --> 1:05:02.360 mostly buds, twigs, leaf scars, fruits, you know, like all 1:05:02.360 --> 1:05:06.760 different kinds and uh it was sort of legendary as 1:05:06.840 --> 1:05:11.160 this like real ball busting exam but a lot of 1:05:11.200 --> 1:05:14.320 pride in in like smoking it and getting it for sure. 1:05:14.920 --> 1:05:17.440 Yeah, yeah, I got a question for you. It's not 1:05:17.440 --> 1:05:20.680 in your book. How dumb are you if you say acorn? 1:05:23.840 --> 1:05:24.880 I'm just for a friend. 1:05:26.400 --> 1:05:28.920 Yeah, you know, I like, I gotta say, and I'm 1:05:29.000 --> 1:05:32.320 hip to this, I'm not. Well, I'm I'm from from 1:05:34.920 --> 1:05:38.160 I will just say that, Steve. I really like hearing 1:05:38.240 --> 1:05:41.160 people who sound like they're from someplace, you know what 1:05:41.240 --> 1:05:44.640 I mean, America And I can't even say it is 1:05:44.680 --> 1:05:49.320 it akorn? When I hear some yeah, some tree love 1:05:49.360 --> 1:05:52.480 and nuts say acorn, I'm like, all right, he's from somewhere. 1:05:52.520 --> 1:05:52.800 I'm not. 1:05:53.040 --> 1:05:53.439 That's all. 1:05:53.640 --> 1:05:55.360 There's a I don't know if we have him on 1:05:55.360 --> 1:05:57.720 the website anymore. Of apparently there's some kind of patch 1:05:57.840 --> 1:06:00.360 or something with an acorn that says ache a e 1:06:00.520 --> 1:06:01.440 R n acren. 1:06:01.560 --> 1:06:05.080 I think just that that well, I think Paul Lewis 1:06:05.120 --> 1:06:07.000 made clay some of those patches. 1:06:18.880 --> 1:06:22.240 Uh, speaking of acorns, you know, my friend and I said, 1:06:22.240 --> 1:06:25.160 it's gonna be like fact checking everything you say. Yeah, 1:06:25.280 --> 1:06:26.880 me and him had a bet one time man, and 1:06:26.920 --> 1:06:28.960 I can't remember the details of the bet. I remember 1:06:28.960 --> 1:06:32.640 I won it. It's gonna get into a question that 1:06:32.680 --> 1:06:35.640 you had. There are a question you deal in woods wise, 1:06:36.600 --> 1:06:42.760 but how many pounds? What's the most pounds of acorns 1:06:44.000 --> 1:06:46.240 that an oak tree might throw off? 1:06:47.800 --> 1:06:50.160 Yeah, I don't know in a given amount of time, Like. 1:06:51.160 --> 1:06:54.000 I think Bubbly Dog might have said something like hundreds 1:06:54.040 --> 1:06:55.920 of pounds, and I was like, that can't be true. 1:06:55.920 --> 1:06:57.200 I can't remember the details of the bet. 1:06:58.280 --> 1:07:00.880 I don't know that that's crazy. I'm mean, it's you've 1:07:00.920 --> 1:07:02.840 walked around out there in a big year. It's like 1:07:02.920 --> 1:07:08.960 marbles underfoot, you know, you know it beg a lot 1:07:08.960 --> 1:07:11.200 of branches, a lot of leaves they put them out, Uh, 1:07:11.600 --> 1:07:14.800 one tree, I mean hundreds of pounds seems maybe it's 1:07:14.840 --> 1:07:15.760 a little steep. 1:07:15.640 --> 1:07:18.040 That that probably was that. I'm sure that wasn't what 1:07:18.120 --> 1:07:20.000 it was, But I just didn't know if you if 1:07:20.040 --> 1:07:20.720 you happened and. 1:07:21.480 --> 1:07:25.120 I could, I could that's actually find a bowl, I'm sure, yeah. 1:07:25.520 --> 1:07:30.240 And acorns are nothing when like that's like a piddly 1:07:30.320 --> 1:07:35.200 ass little fruit compared to like a horse chestnut or 1:07:35.280 --> 1:07:38.120 black walnut. And you like there's some trees out there 1:07:38.120 --> 1:07:40.800 that produce some hefty, hefty fruits. 1:07:41.360 --> 1:07:46.040 That'd be an interesting you know, like, how is it 1:07:46.200 --> 1:07:49.000 caribou that have the highest ratio of horn weight per 1:07:49.000 --> 1:07:51.920 body antler weight per body weight maybe or something like that. 1:07:52.280 --> 1:07:56.840 It'd be interesting. The what tree? Damn apple tree? 1:07:57.560 --> 1:08:04.280 Maybe citrus high weight, perinean highest weight per weight you know. 1:08:04.480 --> 1:08:08.080 Racial. But here's what okay, So on the acorn subject, 1:08:09.160 --> 1:08:14.560 you're going acorn? Oh, yeah, big time, now that he 1:08:14.600 --> 1:08:18.680 knows it's not stupid. Does the bumper crop of acorns 1:08:19.760 --> 1:08:22.040 predict a harsh winter? That's the thing I've heard my 1:08:22.080 --> 1:08:24.479 whole life. Of course, you have the trees made a 1:08:24.520 --> 1:08:28.280 lot of acorns. The thinking goes, trees produce a lot 1:08:28.280 --> 1:08:32.000 of acorns this year. Uh, they're and the logic is 1:08:32.000 --> 1:08:36.120 they're very nice, they're very kind, and they are wanting 1:08:36.160 --> 1:08:40.639 to help their animal brethren get through this severe knowing 1:08:40.680 --> 1:08:42.760 it's going to be such a bad winter and all 1:08:42.760 --> 1:08:46.040 the animals are going to be hard up. They have 1:08:47.160 --> 1:08:54.439 magnanimously thrown off a hellacious crop of acorns. 1:08:54.520 --> 1:08:57.200 Right, it's like the amount of black and a holy bugger? 1:08:57.640 --> 1:08:57.760 Right? 1:08:57.920 --> 1:08:58.519 Did you ever hear that? 1:08:58.600 --> 1:08:58.960 On though? 1:09:00.160 --> 1:09:02.599 Like a wooly bugger back east, like it's brown and black, 1:09:02.760 --> 1:09:04.800 and sometimes you see something that have a little bit 1:09:04.800 --> 1:09:05.479 of brown something. 1:09:05.479 --> 1:09:06.839 I've seen them all black before. 1:09:07.439 --> 1:09:07.880 And what's that. 1:09:08.240 --> 1:09:10.719 I've heard that the more black on the wooly bugger, 1:09:10.760 --> 1:09:11.960 the harsher the winter is going to be. 1:09:12.200 --> 1:09:15.680 And there's that the animals have a particularly thick fur 1:09:15.800 --> 1:09:18.439 this fall. It's gonna be a hellacious winner. 1:09:18.520 --> 1:09:22.160 Yeah. Yeah, So like those subjects you don't like to 1:09:22.200 --> 1:09:25.160 go near, this is these ky who am I to 1:09:25.560 --> 1:09:29.439 interrupt generations of folklore? You know that you know it's 1:09:29.479 --> 1:09:32.799 coming from a good place, But no, they're wrong. It's uh. 1:09:33.479 --> 1:09:37.400 In the case of masting, this sort of synchronous bulk 1:09:37.479 --> 1:09:42.120 production of seed or fruits within a species across quite 1:09:42.160 --> 1:09:45.280 a range. Explain synchronous all at the same time one year, 1:09:45.360 --> 1:09:48.400 where all the trees are are the oak trees in 1:09:48.439 --> 1:09:51.200 a given valley or whatever are all putting out a 1:09:51.200 --> 1:09:56.160 lot of acorns every year that year, so in synchrony 1:09:56.240 --> 1:09:59.680 with each other. Right, So that's masting in general. So 1:10:00.240 --> 1:10:03.720 this idea is that when that happens, it's any production 1:10:03.800 --> 1:10:08.200 of fruit really is more a reflection of past environmental 1:10:08.240 --> 1:10:11.679 conditions in particular and energetic conditions of the tree. It's 1:10:11.720 --> 1:10:15.040 sort of status health status. It's way more about what 1:10:15.160 --> 1:10:17.400 it has experienced in the last few years than what 1:10:17.520 --> 1:10:19.439 it is thinking the next year is going to be. 1:10:20.000 --> 1:10:22.640 So it's more a prediction of what has happened than 1:10:22.680 --> 1:10:25.479 a reflection of what has happened than a prediction of 1:10:25.479 --> 1:10:27.879 what is about to happen. It's not a good predictor 1:10:27.880 --> 1:10:31.000 of the future. It's telling you that did pretty well 1:10:31.080 --> 1:10:33.599 the last couple of years growing seasons in terms of moisture, 1:10:33.760 --> 1:10:38.960 nutrient uptake, solar gain. It takes a lot of energy 1:10:39.000 --> 1:10:41.640 to produce all of those fruits, and it's at the 1:10:41.680 --> 1:10:46.679 expense of root growth, diameter growth, shoot growth, height growth, right, 1:10:47.520 --> 1:10:50.559 But it's the biological imperative past those genes on and 1:10:50.600 --> 1:10:53.439 so they're built to do this. And what's really cool 1:10:53.560 --> 1:10:56.120 when you look across a range of species over a 1:10:56.160 --> 1:10:59.439 long march of time and geeky for scientists kind of 1:11:00.680 --> 1:11:05.280 tracking and then hypothesizing and testing, is what has emerged 1:11:05.360 --> 1:11:10.599 is this predator. It's a seed predator satiation hypothesis. That is, 1:11:11.000 --> 1:11:14.400 it's a strategy, a reproductive strategy to bulk up your 1:11:14.520 --> 1:11:17.960 energy story, your energy reserves and then put out a 1:11:17.960 --> 1:11:22.320 bunch of acorns in this case this year, everybody doing 1:11:22.360 --> 1:11:27.240 it kind of together to overwhelm all the seed predators 1:11:27.360 --> 1:11:28.040 think squirrels. 1:11:28.560 --> 1:11:32.519 Are you familiar with the term predator swamping? And with 1:11:32.760 --> 1:11:35.840 birds and animals, I mean like when you get these 1:11:35.920 --> 1:11:40.760 huge aggregations of nesting birds for it, like geese, like 1:11:40.920 --> 1:11:47.439 snow geese in the Arctic, huge aggregations synchronized egg laying, 1:11:48.760 --> 1:11:52.680 and they're getting hammered by predators. But it happens so 1:11:52.840 --> 1:11:57.439 fast that even with all the Arctic foxes, all the 1:11:57.479 --> 1:12:01.840 red foxes, everything, eating all those eggs, they can't get 1:12:01.880 --> 1:12:03.519 to them all in time. This is the same thing 1:12:03.720 --> 1:12:05.559 had you spread it out over the whole summer, they 1:12:05.560 --> 1:12:07.479 probably would have gotten every last one. But also it's 1:12:07.520 --> 1:12:10.920 like wham, we're gonna lose fifty fifty percent. They won't 1:12:10.920 --> 1:12:12.800 get to exactly, and then those ones will be able 1:12:12.840 --> 1:12:14.240 to fly by the time they get to them, you. 1:12:14.240 --> 1:12:18.240 Know, very similar. I think sort of idea here is that, yeah, 1:12:18.280 --> 1:12:20.800 in those big years you put out so many that 1:12:21.360 --> 1:12:24.000 some acorns are going to become oak trees, you know, 1:12:24.000 --> 1:12:26.439 they just and then the lean years where you don't 1:12:26.439 --> 1:12:31.280 put it out, that's actually keeping those squirrel populations somewhat 1:12:31.280 --> 1:12:34.360 in check. It's limiting them by by limiting their availability 1:12:34.360 --> 1:12:38.479 of food resources, right, So it's kind of both. And 1:12:38.600 --> 1:12:41.200 the idea is somebody gets a little wacky and start 1:12:41.200 --> 1:12:43.920 an oak tree, starts putting out in an off year. Well, 1:12:44.560 --> 1:12:48.320 they're going to lose all their acorns because the predators 1:12:48.360 --> 1:12:50.720 are kind of hungry for it. Right, So it's the 1:12:50.800 --> 1:12:52.840 same idea of like doing it at the same time 1:12:53.240 --> 1:12:55.559 and doing it over every few years instead of every 1:12:55.640 --> 1:12:58.920 year to build. So it's also allows you to then 1:12:59.000 --> 1:13:03.480 kind of rebuild your reserves, your energy and nutrient reserves 1:13:03.840 --> 1:13:07.880 so as to be able to make flowers and then 1:13:07.920 --> 1:13:10.559 fruits in the case of acorns, make sense. 1:13:10.400 --> 1:13:13.160 Yeah, you were pointing out in your book, you're pointing 1:13:13.160 --> 1:13:16.400 out an interesting thing as well, that a lot of 1:13:16.400 --> 1:13:20.519 oak trees are the same age, same same birth date 1:13:21.800 --> 1:13:26.120 because that system is effective. Like that, meaning on these 1:13:26.160 --> 1:13:28.200 years where they got like a piss poor amount of acorns, 1:13:28.680 --> 1:13:31.360 they're just getting eaten because there's not that many around 1:13:31.400 --> 1:13:33.120 and there's so many animals that they're going to find them. 1:13:33.439 --> 1:13:35.640 But then on those bumper crop years, you find that 1:13:35.680 --> 1:13:39.200 when you go into a stand, right, you'll find that 1:13:39.439 --> 1:13:44.719 those bumper crop years being actually reflected in any generation 1:13:45.400 --> 1:13:49.439 in recruitment, meaning like whatever twenty twenty two had a 1:13:49.439 --> 1:13:52.759 big bumper crop, you might find that down the road 1:13:53.040 --> 1:13:55.360 when you like age a bunch of trees, you age 1:13:55.360 --> 1:13:59.120 them back to that that that worked, like that big 1:13:59.200 --> 1:14:02.480 year was a made oak trees. 1:14:02.360 --> 1:14:05.000 Sort of cost benefit analysis, if you will. I mean, 1:14:05.040 --> 1:14:09.800 we're dangerously close to wild anthropomorphisms here all over the place, 1:14:09.840 --> 1:14:13.280 but it's helpful for the conversation, you know, to think 1:14:13.320 --> 1:14:15.439 of it this way. Yeah, and it stands to reason. 1:14:15.680 --> 1:14:17.600 And you brought up a thing that I've tried to 1:14:17.640 --> 1:14:23.320 explain in the past. Stephen Gould, Stephen J. Stephen J. Gould, 1:14:24.160 --> 1:14:28.800 He'd like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna butcher this this thought. 1:14:28.880 --> 1:14:30.599 He had such great stuff. 1:14:31.000 --> 1:14:34.000 But he was like, we're always looking at when we 1:14:34.000 --> 1:14:36.519 look at nature, we're always saying, well, why is that 1:14:36.600 --> 1:14:37.000 that way? 1:14:37.120 --> 1:14:37.240 Right? 1:14:37.280 --> 1:14:39.960 And nowadays, like at a time you would have looked 1:14:40.000 --> 1:14:42.400 and everything would have you know, everything would have been 1:14:42.400 --> 1:14:46.080 explained as something divine or hidden. Right. And then we 1:14:46.120 --> 1:14:50.400 fell in love with rational thought, and and and how 1:14:50.880 --> 1:14:54.000 we defined scientific rational thought. We fell in love with 1:14:54.000 --> 1:14:58.840 with natural selection evolution, and so we came this idea that, 1:14:58.960 --> 1:15:04.960 like everything you see must be advantageous exactly Okay, So 1:15:05.520 --> 1:15:10.840 why is that tree's bark grayish brown? What is the 1:15:10.880 --> 1:15:14.040 advantage of its bark being grayish brown? And Stephen J. Goolle, 1:15:14.040 --> 1:15:17.200 I can't remember why he wrote this, is he was saying, 1:15:18.439 --> 1:15:24.040 maybe just because exactly me, maybe really thick bark is 1:15:24.120 --> 1:15:27.680 advantageous to that tree because it's fire resistant. And for 1:15:27.720 --> 1:15:33.680 whatever reason that really thick bark is grayish brown. It 1:15:33.680 --> 1:15:35.720 doesn't hurt the tree, doesn't help the tree. It's just 1:15:35.720 --> 1:15:38.840 gray as brown. There's no why. And I think a 1:15:38.840 --> 1:15:41.960 lot of times we like to say animals do this. 1:15:41.960 --> 1:15:44.120 Because, yeah, what's its job. 1:15:44.400 --> 1:15:48.920 Yeah, they like to do that because and I'm like, 1:15:49.080 --> 1:15:51.360 I agree that they sure seem to like to do that. 1:15:51.439 --> 1:15:55.200 The because part man, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. 1:15:55.360 --> 1:15:57.840 It's rampants, they say. And you know, God bless some 1:15:57.880 --> 1:16:01.240 forestry students, natural history students. They were asking these questions, 1:16:01.320 --> 1:16:03.200 why why why is it doing this? And it's really 1:16:03.400 --> 1:16:05.720 I've found that it really bums people out when I 1:16:05.760 --> 1:16:08.920 say there may not be a good reason. The reason 1:16:08.960 --> 1:16:11.320 may be that there's no reason for it to go away. 1:16:12.040 --> 1:16:16.439 However it emerged genetic mutation or what have you. It's 1:16:16.439 --> 1:16:18.720 here now. It's not conferring an advantage. It's just not 1:16:19.040 --> 1:16:22.719 a disadvantage. There's no selection pressure against it to remove 1:16:22.720 --> 1:16:24.880 it from the population, so it kind of perpetuates. 1:16:25.160 --> 1:16:29.360 A salmon's egg might just be orange, yeah, exactly, And 1:16:29.400 --> 1:16:32.120 if they were blue, there might be just as many salmon. Yeah, 1:16:32.240 --> 1:16:34.320 there might be just as many salmon around or not. 1:16:34.560 --> 1:16:37.200 And that gets fun too, just like what's going on here. 1:16:37.280 --> 1:16:42.040 That's why I'm always advocated for parallel universes in which 1:16:42.040 --> 1:16:44.920 we could run one with blue salmon eggs, one run 1:16:44.960 --> 1:16:46.920 with orange salmon eggs, and check in with each other 1:16:46.920 --> 1:16:50.400 now and then and see, like, you know, no one's 1:16:50.400 --> 1:16:51.120 taken me up on this. 1:16:51.240 --> 1:16:53.839 I have a feeling that when when you're doing research, 1:16:54.120 --> 1:16:57.080 if you were doing field science and research, you know, 1:16:57.080 --> 1:17:00.200 I have your control group, you know you don't. I 1:17:00.240 --> 1:17:01.880 have a strong feeling that you'd always want to be 1:17:01.880 --> 1:17:02.960 in the out of control group. 1:17:03.040 --> 1:17:06.280 Mm m sure, Yeah, to keep an eye on that one. Yeah, Uh, 1:17:06.400 --> 1:17:09.080 here's the one you had in your book that we've 1:17:09.120 --> 1:17:13.120 talked about one hundred times. In context of property taxes, 1:17:15.360 --> 1:17:20.920 does a hilly acre contain more land than a flat one. 1:17:21.120 --> 1:17:25.720 I've always wondered this, like if you own deeply in 1:17:25.840 --> 1:17:28.800 sized like like a certain however, we define an acre 1:17:28.840 --> 1:17:32.320 of land okay, and it's deeply in sized or it's 1:17:32.360 --> 1:17:36.720 mountainous like that person is getting a screaming deal on 1:17:36.760 --> 1:17:40.439 property taxes over the guy that owns the flat land 1:17:41.160 --> 1:17:45.599 because the person with the super steep ground has to 1:17:45.640 --> 1:17:50.559 own more square footage of surface area. The then the 1:17:50.640 --> 1:17:56.120 person in western Kansas paying taxes on acre ground. 1:17:56.640 --> 1:17:57.160 You got it. 1:17:57.560 --> 1:17:59.720 I mean it's like, how wildly off can it be? 1:17:59.840 --> 1:18:02.360 Like how much square footage of land can you own 1:18:02.560 --> 1:18:04.080 that's still being called an acre? 1:18:04.200 --> 1:18:06.719 Well, funny you asked, because I did push the pencil 1:18:06.760 --> 1:18:07.080 around a. 1:18:07.040 --> 1:18:09.759 Little biting significant if. 1:18:09.680 --> 1:18:13.360 On a large enough area, yes, but in most ownership 1:18:13.560 --> 1:18:17.559 sort of size ranges, yeah, it's some but not huge. 1:18:17.680 --> 1:18:21.360 So the deal is, you're right, the thinking is sound. 1:18:21.720 --> 1:18:25.439 With all this hilly terrain, there's more surface area and 1:18:25.479 --> 1:18:26.400 you nailed that, but. 1:18:26.320 --> 1:18:27.840 Really explain what an acre is to. 1:18:28.240 --> 1:18:32.439 So an acre by definition is forty three, five hundred 1:18:32.439 --> 1:18:33.960 and sixty square feet. 1:18:34.000 --> 1:18:37.000 Of that number was drilled into my head. 1:18:37.160 --> 1:18:38.040 Oh yeah, it's. 1:18:38.080 --> 1:18:39.920 Over and over and over. 1:18:40.000 --> 1:18:42.320 It explains where it came four three six, It's like 1:18:42.840 --> 1:18:46.519 it's there, yeah, never leave. 1:18:47.920 --> 1:18:51.160 Yeah, So originally I mean so that's a two dimensional 1:18:51.240 --> 1:18:52.920 that right, And this comes back we'll get back to 1:18:52.960 --> 1:18:57.040 the question. That's that's the issue. It's a two dimensional measure. Uh, 1:18:57.080 --> 1:18:59.960 an acre it's square be two hundred and eight point 1:19:00.400 --> 1:19:05.679 seven feet on a side, it's forty three thousand, five 1:19:05.760 --> 1:19:10.120 hundred and sixty square feet. And that, as I understand, 1:19:10.360 --> 1:19:17.719 came originally from a furrow, which became a furlong, which 1:19:17.800 --> 1:19:20.400 became the acre. So this will all be all started 1:19:20.439 --> 1:19:26.200 from the length. The distance an oxen could plow before 1:19:26.240 --> 1:19:30.600 needing a break was the length, and then yeah, you 1:19:30.680 --> 1:19:33.880 gotta love it, right, and then that turned into a 1:19:33.920 --> 1:19:37.200 team in a certain period of time, that was the acre. 1:19:37.320 --> 1:19:41.519 Do you think an oxen standard existed somewhere like, oh, 1:19:41.720 --> 1:19:44.760 that is measured off of that oxen? Yeah right, that 1:19:44.800 --> 1:19:45.639 we keep here. 1:19:45.640 --> 1:19:48.840 Badass oxen. I'm doing way more than that, right. 1:19:48.920 --> 1:19:51.240 Like I've all four measured the ground, but who's picking 1:19:51.240 --> 1:19:51.920 the ox. 1:19:54.120 --> 1:19:59.120 Excellent point. So with that prehistory there, an acre is 1:19:59.360 --> 1:20:03.960 a fixed square footage of area. And where it comes 1:20:04.000 --> 1:20:07.200 back to this question of hilly acre have more land 1:20:07.280 --> 1:20:12.280 than a flat acre is well of a hilly acre 1:20:12.479 --> 1:20:15.439 has more surface area. And that's what you said, Steve, 1:20:15.479 --> 1:20:19.599 and that's right. But real estate back to the corner crossing, 1:20:19.600 --> 1:20:21.000 I don't know if we're allowed to go back there. 1:20:21.040 --> 1:20:24.479 But these these lots are laid out not on surface 1:20:24.520 --> 1:20:28.920 area but as horizontal distance sort of floating above the ground. 1:20:29.320 --> 1:20:32.679 This is known as plane surveying p L A n E. 1:20:33.120 --> 1:20:36.439 It's a plane. And so the concept is the acre 1:20:36.640 --> 1:20:39.280 is like sort of hovering above the ground in this 1:20:39.400 --> 1:20:42.479 two dimensional thing. Now, so if you go out and 1:20:42.520 --> 1:20:46.639 measure from one corner pin to another, down a steep 1:20:47.720 --> 1:20:51.080 into a canyon or whatever, pulling a tape to measure 1:20:51.080 --> 1:20:55.519 the distance that that slope distance, the ground distance would 1:20:55.520 --> 1:21:00.559 be more simple geometry then the horizontal distance vating above 1:21:00.600 --> 1:21:04.439 those two points. And so by convention, that's all by 1:21:04.520 --> 1:21:08.639 convention it has. That's surveying is based on plane surveying. 1:21:08.680 --> 1:21:13.080 Now there is at large, like big ass scales they're 1:21:13.160 --> 1:21:15.920 surveying that takes into account the curvature of the earth 1:21:16.120 --> 1:21:19.240 there is. Yeah, but that's not how property is measured 1:21:19.280 --> 1:21:23.360 and transacted, right, But that's a whole other kind of surveying. 1:21:23.439 --> 1:21:25.519 So in the best case scenario, you might have a 1:21:25.920 --> 1:21:30.120 one point what acres of surface area per you. 1:21:30.080 --> 1:21:32.559 Know, maybe zero point one point five you might get 1:21:32.960 --> 1:21:36.200 on this sort of garden variety. So people are getting 1:21:36.240 --> 1:21:38.880 a real scream a real screaming deal. But the bigger 1:21:38.880 --> 1:21:41.600 it gets, the steeper, the more of these folds that 1:21:41.640 --> 1:21:45.120 you have, Yeah, I mean you take takes a lot 1:21:45.240 --> 1:21:47.439 more to cover it if you are covering the surface. 1:21:47.560 --> 1:21:49.680 And that does translate and a touch on this in 1:21:49.720 --> 1:21:54.439 the book to growing conditions, opportunity sites for trees to exist, 1:21:55.400 --> 1:21:58.280 you know, on the slopes, and probably more important though 1:21:58.360 --> 1:22:03.840 where productivity of trees, timber, acorns deer because of their 1:22:03.920 --> 1:22:10.879 relationship with those trees and the fruits. It's more it's 1:22:11.280 --> 1:22:14.439 it's probably more about aspect the direction that slope faces 1:22:15.400 --> 1:22:18.200 where you we'll have a greater influence on what's growing 1:22:18.200 --> 1:22:21.360 there or the habitat conditions there. But anyway, the big 1:22:21.479 --> 1:22:24.679 version here is that the hilly acre has more surface area, 1:22:24.720 --> 1:22:28.680 but not more acres because acres are measured. As this 1:22:29.000 --> 1:22:31.320 plane hovering above about acorns. 1:22:32.640 --> 1:22:34.479 I still do a whole lot of looking out the 1:22:34.520 --> 1:22:38.519 airplane window every time I fly, and I honestly think 1:22:38.520 --> 1:22:42.160 about this a lot. Like us folks love to talk 1:22:42.200 --> 1:22:46.320 about like the grandeur of the landscape, right, and you're 1:22:46.360 --> 1:22:48.639 looking at all this amazing stuff, but you know, damn 1:22:48.640 --> 1:22:51.240 good and well there's somebody who's like, yeah, but wouldn't 1:22:51.240 --> 1:22:53.280 it just be nice if it was all flat? 1:22:53.400 --> 1:22:54.280 Oh? 1:22:54.439 --> 1:22:56.479 Right? So we really knew how much we had and 1:22:56.520 --> 1:23:00.559 how who owned what? Right, Like it just just make either. 1:23:00.479 --> 1:23:01.280 When I see people. 1:23:01.280 --> 1:23:03.760 When I see someone building the big like a new, 1:23:03.760 --> 1:23:07.160 big mansion on a steep hill, I'm al was like, yeah, 1:23:07.280 --> 1:23:10.920 he's got no flag ground that he was gonna put 1:23:10.920 --> 1:23:15.639 a garden, no tillable. Here's one of the answer really 1:23:15.640 --> 1:23:18.120 surprised me. I'm gonna spoil it by giving the answer. 1:23:18.479 --> 1:23:20.559 It's your show and then you do what you want 1:23:20.560 --> 1:23:24.439 with it. What did New England's forests look like prior 1:23:24.479 --> 1:23:28.240 to European settlement? When I dug into that one in 1:23:28.280 --> 1:23:30.760 the book, I was prepared to be depressed and was 1:23:30.800 --> 1:23:33.120 shocked to see that. You're like, you're The answer was 1:23:33.400 --> 1:23:38.080 probably about like they do now, there's some differences, but no, yeah, 1:23:38.120 --> 1:23:40.080 I was for some reason that I was like, uh, 1:23:40.160 --> 1:23:41.040 I felt good about it. 1:23:41.080 --> 1:23:43.639 Well, because the question is very specific to the forests, 1:23:43.800 --> 1:23:48.000 not the landscape, right, like like now we have less forest, yeah, sure, 1:23:48.560 --> 1:23:53.599 more egotoriums. Right. Uh So the forests though in sort 1:23:53.640 --> 1:23:57.600 of the composition structure, a species composition, the arrangement of 1:23:57.640 --> 1:24:01.840 the trees, that is surprisingly I would agree with you, 1:24:02.479 --> 1:24:08.920 evidently because remember nobody really remembers, uh, surprisingly similar in 1:24:09.000 --> 1:24:12.760 terms of species composition, with some changes, with some notable exceptions. Uh, 1:24:13.240 --> 1:24:17.960 in the northeast, we have more aspen, more cherry, more birch, 1:24:19.560 --> 1:24:23.479 and more red maple than it was believed to be 1:24:23.600 --> 1:24:29.040 the case per your European contact. Okay, so the expense 1:24:29.120 --> 1:24:33.360 of what those what do they all have in common? 1:24:33.400 --> 1:24:38.560 They're more early successional sort of, they have poor shade tolerance. 1:24:38.680 --> 1:24:41.479 That these are fast growing pioneer type species you know, 1:24:41.560 --> 1:24:44.439 live fast, die young. So at the expense of the 1:24:44.479 --> 1:24:48.559 other the late successional, the hemlock, sugar maple, beach, that 1:24:48.760 --> 1:24:53.799 yellow birch that live hundreds of years. So we we've 1:24:54.400 --> 1:25:00.000 so the records indicate oak has, particularly in southern New England, 1:25:00.960 --> 1:25:04.519 has gone down in preponderance. You know. To me, the 1:25:04.600 --> 1:25:07.360 interesting thing about all that work is it's I guess 1:25:07.400 --> 1:25:10.160 it's surprising you would thought, oh, man, radically different. 1:25:10.160 --> 1:25:12.240 Oh yeah, I thought it'd be like, oh, beech trees 1:25:12.280 --> 1:25:14.120 that were twenty feet across at the stone. 1:25:14.360 --> 1:25:17.519 Well, so so there's two things. One is the other 1:25:17.560 --> 1:25:21.000 piece is that the species mix that largely looks very 1:25:21.080 --> 1:25:25.880 much the same evidently is one. But I think it's 1:25:25.920 --> 1:25:27.360 really important to quickly move to. 1:25:28.920 --> 1:25:29.040 That. 1:25:29.160 --> 1:25:31.799 But the forest is very different. There are fewer lunkers, 1:25:31.880 --> 1:25:35.120 big ass giant trees, big old trees. There's way fewer 1:25:35.200 --> 1:25:40.080 down dead trees in a variety of sizes. Of course, 1:25:40.120 --> 1:25:42.960 woody material that we know now is plays this really 1:25:42.960 --> 1:25:47.719 important habitat and nutrients, cycling and water roll. Way less 1:25:47.720 --> 1:25:49.519 of that now than in the presettlement force. 1:25:49.560 --> 1:25:51.000 So when I said I was going to answer the question, 1:25:51.000 --> 1:25:55.240 I didn't do a very good job of answering it. Okay, 1:25:55.520 --> 1:25:57.240 well no, when I felt like you said, like, but 1:25:57.439 --> 1:25:59.880 like it would now yeah, so in species you got 1:25:59.880 --> 1:26:01.920 to cat Well. 1:26:01.840 --> 1:26:03.360 It's just that what do we mean by different? So 1:26:03.400 --> 1:26:06.679 the species mix is surprisingly similar, you were right about, 1:26:06.720 --> 1:26:08.880 And that's where you were going. I'm saying, there's more 1:26:08.920 --> 1:26:12.040 to a forest than the names of the trees out there. 1:26:12.040 --> 1:26:15.760 It's what sizes what ages, what physical spacing and arrangement 1:26:16.640 --> 1:26:21.280 there were, So old forests, which those primarily were, are 1:26:21.360 --> 1:26:25.439 exceedingly rare everywhere now, particularly in the northeast. One percent 1:26:25.479 --> 1:26:28.000 of the landscape is in what we would call actually 1:26:28.120 --> 1:26:34.200 old forest. Yeah, and so old forests are more than 1:26:34.360 --> 1:26:37.200 just the species that are there. It's it's so in 1:26:37.240 --> 1:26:39.439 other words, the species haven't changed all that much, with 1:26:39.560 --> 1:26:42.760 some notable exceptions. It's the composition, what we call the structure, 1:26:42.960 --> 1:26:46.640 the three dimensionality of the forest has changed a lot, 1:26:47.160 --> 1:26:50.639 a lot. And also I think there's reason to think that. 1:26:51.000 --> 1:26:53.559 I mean, these woods have been worked hard, right, they 1:26:53.600 --> 1:26:57.519 were cut repeatedly, and then they were it was sheep pasture, 1:26:57.640 --> 1:27:02.160 then it was cows, and so there's been an export 1:27:02.240 --> 1:27:07.040 of wool, milk wood, and let's not forget soil from 1:27:07.120 --> 1:27:11.240 these places, you know, over a few centuries. So they're 1:27:11.320 --> 1:27:13.680 much depleted. And I think it stands to reason that 1:27:13.720 --> 1:27:16.559 they're probably not they're different in other ways that maybe 1:27:16.560 --> 1:27:18.760 we're not able to see quite yet in terms of 1:27:18.760 --> 1:27:22.040 their what other organisms have gone missing, right that we 1:27:22.080 --> 1:27:25.679 don't pay attention to, not the charismatic megafauna. Right, they're 1:27:25.800 --> 1:27:28.200 largely the same with some we had elk, they're not 1:27:28.200 --> 1:27:30.600 there anymore. I mean, there's some big differences, but this 1:27:30.680 --> 1:27:31.879 makes sense like they're. 1:27:31.680 --> 1:27:34.559 Sort of like is it a fecundity type of question? 1:27:34.760 --> 1:27:37.680 Well, I'm sure the basic productivity of the sites I 1:27:38.000 --> 1:27:41.720 shouldn't say. I'm sure. I suspect strongly with reason that 1:27:41.760 --> 1:27:45.080 they're much depleted. The other piece I would think i'd 1:27:45.080 --> 1:27:47.840 say about this piece is that really floored me and 1:27:47.920 --> 1:27:51.360 I thought was really fun was how do I know this? 1:27:51.439 --> 1:27:51.559 Well? 1:27:51.600 --> 1:27:54.439 I know it from some published papers peer reviewed. How 1:27:54.439 --> 1:27:57.559 did they know it? This description of the change from 1:27:57.560 --> 1:28:00.680 the presettlement forest today? As I start the thing with 1:28:00.760 --> 1:28:03.240 kind of a wise ass remark, well nobody remembers. But 1:28:03.400 --> 1:28:07.679 fortunately the surveyors that were laying out the King's lots 1:28:07.680 --> 1:28:11.280 and original kind of doing doing these surveying in the north, 1:28:11.439 --> 1:28:14.519 in the northeast where they first landed, those first woodsmen 1:28:14.560 --> 1:28:17.320 going through the woods and surveying and laying out lots, 1:28:17.360 --> 1:28:20.720 and they were making notes of witness trees right on 1:28:20.800 --> 1:28:24.000 every corner, what are the trees around this? And so 1:28:24.080 --> 1:28:28.519 these researchers went and poured over, you know, hundreds and 1:28:28.600 --> 1:28:33.240 thousands of these old surveyor records and then kind of 1:28:33.439 --> 1:28:37.240 you know, kind of summarized and computerized them and kind 1:28:37.240 --> 1:28:40.040 of analyzed them. And that's the basis of this, Like 1:28:40.280 --> 1:28:44.680 what's the the occurrence of species then versus now? And 1:28:44.680 --> 1:28:46.200 that that's it. I just find that to be a 1:28:46.240 --> 1:28:49.360 really cool little bit of science to somebody where kind 1:28:49.360 --> 1:28:52.520 of creatively found a way to get at an answer. 1:28:52.200 --> 1:28:54.479 Maybe like accidental accidental citizen science. 1:28:54.640 --> 1:28:59.400 Yeah, really cool and right that these guys then cultivated 1:28:59.400 --> 1:29:01.600 and sort of un earth and sort of an archaeological 1:29:01.680 --> 1:29:04.960 kind of approach to those records and then rebuilt a 1:29:05.000 --> 1:29:09.840 picture of the species mix, but not the the as 1:29:09.880 --> 1:29:14.280 I say that, the structure and other forms of composition 1:29:14.320 --> 1:29:15.960 of the forest that are really important. 1:29:16.320 --> 1:29:16.479 Uh. 1:29:16.640 --> 1:29:20.680 Me and me and my colleague doctor Randall, we're discussing 1:29:20.720 --> 1:29:24.640 something like this recently where we're working on it. 1:29:24.680 --> 1:29:30.120 Sounds so official when you put it in those terms. 1:29:31.080 --> 1:29:34.080 We've made up a song about him. It's like what 1:29:34.280 --> 1:29:38.000 good is being a doctor when you can't prescribe no drug? 1:29:43.439 --> 1:29:46.640 It's like, how could there actually be a doctor of history. 1:29:48.680 --> 1:29:50.599 I gotta work on the tune, the melody, the melody 1:29:50.640 --> 1:29:53.879 and the lyrics is suffering. But doctor Randall, now we're observing. 1:29:54.600 --> 1:29:58.559 We're working on these audio We're working on these audio 1:29:58.600 --> 1:30:09.719 books about long hunters and mountain men. Okay, and rather 1:30:09.760 --> 1:30:13.400 than focusing on all the geopolitics and world events and stuff, 1:30:13.479 --> 1:30:16.600 focusing very heavily on the day to day nuts and 1:30:16.600 --> 1:30:20.160 bolts of how they did what they did. Maining. We 1:30:20.280 --> 1:30:24.559 know that Daniel Boone spent most of his career hunting 1:30:24.600 --> 1:30:30.720 deer hides. Okay, how how did he hunt deer? When 1:30:30.720 --> 1:30:32.280 he got up to a dead deer, what did he do? 1:30:33.960 --> 1:30:37.000 How did he prepare the hides for the market? How 1:30:37.000 --> 1:30:40.200 were they handled in camp? Why didn't they all rot 1:30:40.240 --> 1:30:43.920 when it rained? Who did he sell them to and where? 1:30:44.080 --> 1:30:47.439 And for how much? Who wanted that leather in for 1:30:47.479 --> 1:30:56.000 what purpose? Okay? So many of these questions are exceedingly 1:30:56.080 --> 1:31:02.080 difficult to find out. Other things that chroniclers of the 1:31:02.120 --> 1:31:06.360 time were fixated on are of low relevance to us, 1:31:07.120 --> 1:31:13.400 Meaning how an area was watered and what grew on 1:31:13.439 --> 1:31:19.559 it was of great importance to chroniclers. I went to 1:31:19.600 --> 1:31:23.439 the head of this creek. It was well watered here, here, here, 1:31:23.479 --> 1:31:27.759 and here with springs. There was a salt source here. 1:31:29.400 --> 1:31:34.920 This is what the timber array looked like. Uh, why 1:31:34.960 --> 1:31:37.200 in the hell would I write down how he skins deer? 1:31:38.840 --> 1:31:41.720 Who cares you skin deer? Like? You skin deer like? 1:31:42.000 --> 1:31:42.200 No? 1:31:42.439 --> 1:31:48.160 Like like write down what we ate? Whoever want to 1:31:48.160 --> 1:31:51.240 know that? What they want to know is is it 1:31:51.320 --> 1:31:56.280 well watered? And how right? And it's like it's in 1:31:56.320 --> 1:31:59.599 that way. And again there was always like the blazing 1:31:59.640 --> 1:32:02.240 of tree. It was they were going about what they 1:32:02.240 --> 1:32:05.160 were doing for money, and they were two steps ahead 1:32:05.520 --> 1:32:11.240 to describing land for other people. And I bring that 1:32:11.320 --> 1:32:13.680 up only because one it's a frustration that we're dealing with, 1:32:13.760 --> 1:32:17.200 and two, like those people did in New England, that 1:32:17.320 --> 1:32:21.679 might be an interesting that might be an interesting thing 1:32:21.720 --> 1:32:25.280 for for forresters trying to understand that middle ground that 1:32:25.479 --> 1:32:29.400 area of like Kentucky at that time. Because their descriptions 1:32:29.439 --> 1:32:34.640 do not conform at all to what the amount of 1:32:34.640 --> 1:32:39.160 American cane, right, Yeah, the amount of time they spend 1:32:39.320 --> 1:32:45.200 hiding in, living in, storing things in hollow trees. It's like, 1:32:45.280 --> 1:32:47.880 go find me some hollow trees now that a couple 1:32:47.960 --> 1:32:51.479 guys are going to sleep in. It's like what are 1:32:51.520 --> 1:32:52.639 they even talking about? 1:32:52.760 --> 1:32:52.920 Right? 1:32:55.080 --> 1:32:58.600 That stuff is just not He Boon lost one of 1:32:58.600 --> 1:33:00.799 his hunting buddies who got wounded hit by a musket 1:33:00.880 --> 1:33:04.000 ball and was high benchal blood to death in there, 1:33:04.040 --> 1:33:06.880 but went and hid himself in a hollow tree, gun 1:33:06.920 --> 1:33:09.040 and everything. It's like, where the hell's that tree? 1:33:09.120 --> 1:33:11.960 Yeah, few and far out there anymore. 1:33:12.280 --> 1:33:14.000 But in reading this stuff, it seems like it was 1:33:14.040 --> 1:33:16.040 like every time you turn around, there's a hollow tree 1:33:16.080 --> 1:33:18.360 big enough for you and your Boddy to like acts 1:33:18.400 --> 1:33:19.640 a hole into encamp in. 1:33:19.840 --> 1:33:23.320 Yep, yeah, no doubt. And that to me it raised 1:33:23.320 --> 1:33:26.320 a really important point that like these old forests that 1:33:26.560 --> 1:33:30.719 I would suggest are like that the best the best 1:33:31.080 --> 1:33:33.760 expression of a forest like it is, that's what they're 1:33:33.800 --> 1:33:35.439 supposed to be, right, So you look at those as 1:33:35.479 --> 1:33:38.360 the archetype of what a forest can be is like 1:33:38.400 --> 1:33:43.720 these old forests. A real common misconception is that it 1:33:43.800 --> 1:33:47.840 was this open. It's just this unbroken expanse of bomber trees, 1:33:48.080 --> 1:33:52.880 you know, huge trees from from Maine to Missouri, that 1:33:52.920 --> 1:33:55.839 whole bit. Now, even in these old forests, the evidence 1:33:55.920 --> 1:34:00.360 indicates and stands to reason that there's trees are under 1:34:00.360 --> 1:34:05.960 all kinds of daily, seasonal, yearly, long term assault. Right 1:34:06.000 --> 1:34:11.280 their branches break, there's insect outbreaks, wind, throw, ice, ice, storms, fire, 1:34:11.760 --> 1:34:15.680 and they occur and various return cycles and in various intensities, 1:34:15.680 --> 1:34:18.760 and that results over the long time in this kind 1:34:18.800 --> 1:34:22.000 of mixed mosaic of so you have even in these 1:34:22.080 --> 1:34:25.120 The point is, even in big, old, awesome, perfect if 1:34:25.120 --> 1:34:27.719 you will, old forests, there's baby trees, they're little trees. 1:34:27.760 --> 1:34:30.719 There's broken trees, there's ugly trees, there's patches of open 1:34:31.040 --> 1:34:36.240 there's wetland complaice beaver associated areas that with early successional habitats, 1:34:36.320 --> 1:34:40.719 that the matrix, if you will, was big bomber trees, 1:34:40.800 --> 1:34:43.800 old and long lasting, but interrupted here and there with 1:34:44.080 --> 1:34:48.920 all every conceivable stage of growth and type. Right, So 1:34:48.960 --> 1:34:50.920 that's what makes them powerful is they have all these 1:34:50.920 --> 1:34:54.880 different substrates, all these different surfaces, all these different possibilities 1:34:54.920 --> 1:34:58.840 for everything else associated to make a living. And that's 1:34:58.920 --> 1:35:02.599 what's really lacking now almost everywhere, you know, is. 1:35:02.560 --> 1:35:07.920 There an oh, sorry, is there an age an age 1:35:08.000 --> 1:35:11.479 kind of definition for the cutoff of you know, old 1:35:11.840 --> 1:35:12.280 of old. 1:35:12.720 --> 1:35:17.120 Yeah, growth, it depends by species. So like in the northeast, 1:35:17.840 --> 1:35:21.240 so eastern hemlock will go for maybe five hundred years, 1:35:22.360 --> 1:35:26.080 balsam fur not so much. You know, so an old 1:35:26.200 --> 1:35:28.640 balsam fir stand might be, you know, one hundred and 1:35:28.640 --> 1:35:30.800 fifty be wicked old for a bunch of balsam fur, 1:35:31.360 --> 1:35:36.360 but mid adolescents laid adolescents for hemlock stand, if you will, right, 1:35:36.680 --> 1:35:40.759 And so we define it less. I think ecologists define 1:35:40.760 --> 1:35:45.280 it less by just age and more by age and 1:35:45.479 --> 1:35:50.800 other evidence of having escaped human disturbance. Stumps, fences, you know, 1:35:50.840 --> 1:35:55.200 barbed wire, buried in trees, stone piles, all of it. Right, 1:35:55.320 --> 1:35:58.719 So we have a definition for our tax abatement program 1:35:58.760 --> 1:36:02.200 for forest landowners that you can qualify for you know, 1:36:02.240 --> 1:36:06.759 sort of different treatment, different management requirements for old forest 1:36:07.400 --> 1:36:10.240 if you can demonstrate yes and you meet this certain 1:36:10.240 --> 1:36:14.960 threshold of age for the appropriate to the forest type. 1:36:15.120 --> 1:36:17.640 But you also have to show that is not just 1:36:17.680 --> 1:36:20.759 a couple of big old trees that just escaped harvest 1:36:21.000 --> 1:36:24.680 or other disturbance, but that there's been no human disturbance 1:36:24.760 --> 1:36:27.320 for that long period of time. And then you look 1:36:27.360 --> 1:36:31.519 for other things like the presence of down trees in 1:36:31.600 --> 1:36:35.320 all diameter classes, not just little twigs on the ground, 1:36:35.400 --> 1:36:38.639 but big trees, you know, in various stages of decay. 1:36:38.760 --> 1:36:41.559 So you know it's all the parts and pieces that 1:36:42.240 --> 1:36:45.479 are considered when and I think most I think it's 1:36:45.479 --> 1:36:48.240 fair to say that's the a conventional approach to kind 1:36:48.240 --> 1:36:50.960 of defining or creating a threshold for what is or 1:36:51.080 --> 1:36:52.519 isn't an old forest. 1:36:53.000 --> 1:36:57.160 Had a couple real interesting days of hiking in northwest 1:36:57.200 --> 1:37:03.120 Montana here last week, and it was really gorgeous. But 1:37:03.280 --> 1:37:07.600 it all changed for me once I kind of realized 1:37:07.960 --> 1:37:11.320 what was happening is I was looking for this roost tree, 1:37:11.560 --> 1:37:14.200 like I knew these turkeys were in this area, and 1:37:14.400 --> 1:37:17.880 you know, typically a lot of landscapes is not that hard, 1:37:18.280 --> 1:37:20.599 like if you have a general area where the gobbles 1:37:20.600 --> 1:37:22.240 are coming from early in the morning. 1:37:22.479 --> 1:37:23.920 Oh to be like, yeah, I bet they're hanging out 1:37:23.920 --> 1:37:24.720 on that tree. 1:37:24.520 --> 1:37:29.080 Exactly like that one right. Well, because all of a sudden, 1:37:29.240 --> 1:37:32.240 I'm looking through this new lens, I started looking around 1:37:32.360 --> 1:37:36.759 this forest that was previously like very pretty and pleasant, 1:37:36.800 --> 1:37:40.080 and I'm like, there is not a tree here that 1:37:40.360 --> 1:37:44.840 is a different age class. Every single tree, you know, 1:37:44.960 --> 1:37:47.559 it was like the same. And it just it just 1:37:47.600 --> 1:37:50.800 like totally changed my experience because of that. Yeah, because 1:37:50.840 --> 1:37:54.200 it was just like it whoever was doing the forest 1:37:54.200 --> 1:37:57.479 try in that area, Like I mean, it was amazing, 1:37:57.600 --> 1:38:01.800 It was beautiful, it was wonderful. But there was no 1:38:01.960 --> 1:38:05.559 mistaking that everything had been touched by the hand of man, right. 1:38:05.760 --> 1:38:08.400 I was just like, oh, yeah. 1:38:07.800 --> 1:38:11.960 I am in like a city park almost, you know 1:38:12.000 --> 1:38:12.400 what I mean? 1:38:13.439 --> 1:38:25.960 Yeah, it was just big silver culture. Yes, let's get 1:38:25.960 --> 1:38:29.040 to the one everybody here wants to talk about. What's 1:38:29.040 --> 1:38:30.840 the difference between sat wood and heartwood. 1:38:32.800 --> 1:38:38.120 I can't go anywhere without people asking me that one. Steve, Uh, 1:38:38.160 --> 1:38:39.080 it's all wood. 1:38:38.920 --> 1:38:41.280 And you're gonna tie this into making light lighter material? 1:38:42.160 --> 1:38:46.880 Sure, okay, Uh, sat you know what I'm talking about, 1:38:47.200 --> 1:38:48.280 pine knots and whatnot. 1:38:48.360 --> 1:38:49.320 Is that tie into this or not? 1:38:49.800 --> 1:38:52.519 No? Not? Those are nots u and all like. 1:38:52.520 --> 1:38:54.120 The stuff that's got all the resident What the hell 1:38:54.160 --> 1:38:54.599 were Yeah? 1:38:54.640 --> 1:38:54.840 You had? 1:38:55.160 --> 1:38:56.479 Yeah, fat fat wood. 1:38:57.840 --> 1:39:00.280 I want to do satwood, heartwood. 1:38:59.800 --> 1:39:02.360 And Okay, so sapwood. 1:39:02.840 --> 1:39:06.920 Let's start with fat wood story where it makes most. 1:39:06.640 --> 1:39:09.160 Okay, we started with heartwood and sapwood. So I go there. 1:39:09.439 --> 1:39:14.960 And heartwood is is the wood in the inside of 1:39:15.000 --> 1:39:19.280 the tree, the oldest all of the oldest, the oldest 1:39:19.320 --> 1:39:23.200 wood within a tree. And the sapwood is the outermost 1:39:23.560 --> 1:39:26.120 ring of wood inside the bark. So we got to 1:39:26.200 --> 1:39:31.040 go anatomy one oh one here, and you've got xylum 1:39:31.160 --> 1:39:33.639 is the word that's just it's just a fancy name 1:39:33.680 --> 1:39:38.240 for wood. And you know, the cambium is this thin layer, 1:39:38.400 --> 1:39:42.360 a veil of living cells really near the just under 1:39:42.400 --> 1:39:46.880 the bark that divides and multiplies. It's it's really where 1:39:46.920 --> 1:39:50.280 tree growth happens. In diameter shoot growth is different. That's 1:39:50.320 --> 1:39:53.400 that apical bud that's extending the length of the tree. 1:39:53.439 --> 1:39:56.320 But diameter growth of the stem and the twigs that 1:39:56.439 --> 1:40:00.880 all comes from the cambium producing woods cells to the 1:40:00.920 --> 1:40:05.439 inside of itself and bark cells to the outside of itself. 1:40:05.880 --> 1:40:09.040 Go ya okay, And so as the tree and think of. 1:40:09.520 --> 1:40:11.800 The action is all happening at that layer, at. 1:40:11.680 --> 1:40:15.000 That layer exactly, and every year the tree puts on 1:40:15.280 --> 1:40:17.479 a layer. And you best way I think to think 1:40:17.520 --> 1:40:20.840 about this is like highway pylons, you know, traffic cones, 1:40:21.120 --> 1:40:22.920 like you stack them on top of each other. That's 1:40:22.960 --> 1:40:25.519 how the cone of growth is formed on a tree 1:40:25.520 --> 1:40:28.839 as well. So that why when you imagine cutting stacking 1:40:28.920 --> 1:40:32.040 up ten twelve highway cones on each other and then 1:40:32.200 --> 1:40:36.320 sawing through it transversely, you know, horizonally through. What would 1:40:36.320 --> 1:40:38.800 you have countain rings? You'd have rings. And that's how 1:40:38.840 --> 1:40:41.120 it works with trees. They lay down a layer of 1:40:41.160 --> 1:40:44.439 growth every year, and it's wood on the inside, bark 1:40:44.479 --> 1:40:47.280 on the outside. Well wait a minute, wait, how come 1:40:47.320 --> 1:40:49.479 there isn't this whole chunk of bark out there? Right? 1:40:49.520 --> 1:40:52.679 You got wood adding on every year. The quick answer 1:40:52.760 --> 1:40:55.559 there is that the bark sluffs off, it's exposed, and 1:40:55.680 --> 1:40:58.840 it it you know, So you have this relatively relatively 1:40:58.880 --> 1:41:01.400 thin layer of bark on the outside even though it's 1:41:01.439 --> 1:41:04.400 been created, just like the wood gets created on the 1:41:04.400 --> 1:41:05.479 inside people usually. 1:41:05.840 --> 1:41:07.320 So, yeah, so let's say you're talking about a four 1:41:07.360 --> 1:41:13.120 hundred year old tree. Yeah, okay, the oldest part presumably 1:41:13.280 --> 1:41:16.479 is like down at the bottom of the tree, dead center. Yes, okay, 1:41:16.520 --> 1:41:18.559 that's the oldest part, right, So on a four hundred 1:41:18.600 --> 1:41:20.799 year old tree, how old do you think. 1:41:20.680 --> 1:41:25.000 The bark is? That's you know, the bark that's there 1:41:25.200 --> 1:41:28.200 is only it depends on species and where so it 1:41:28.240 --> 1:41:31.559 will range. But it's way less than four hundred huh right, 1:41:31.720 --> 1:41:38.200 way like like more like tens I would think. Yeah, 1:41:38.560 --> 1:41:41.560 so you got wood on the inside, bark on the outside, 1:41:41.920 --> 1:41:45.040 and then the wood on the inside keeps adding, and 1:41:45.080 --> 1:41:48.719 so the innermost portion, which is the pith, the first 1:41:48.800 --> 1:41:50.759 formed wood on the center of the tree that usually 1:41:50.800 --> 1:41:53.920 gets crushed and kind of dissolves or whatever. The rest 1:41:53.960 --> 1:41:57.599 of those wood layers, they just become kind of their 1:41:57.640 --> 1:42:02.360 structural It's like it's the structure for the photosynthetic apparatus 1:42:02.439 --> 1:42:02.720 up top. 1:42:03.200 --> 1:42:05.600 They're live in some way. They're not like hair, like 1:42:05.680 --> 1:42:06.280 human hair. 1:42:06.400 --> 1:42:10.280 This is what's great. Most of a tree is dead, really, yeah, 1:42:10.320 --> 1:42:11.559 so including most of the. 1:42:11.520 --> 1:42:12.920 Wood, nothing's going on in there. 1:42:13.000 --> 1:42:15.599 Now I didn't say that it's but it's it's dead. 1:42:15.680 --> 1:42:18.280 And so that's that heartwood, which is the dead wood 1:42:18.280 --> 1:42:22.799 on the inside, is still a place where the growing 1:42:22.880 --> 1:42:26.280 points on the outside they send through. So if you 1:42:26.360 --> 1:42:28.400 if you look at a stump, sometimes you can see 1:42:28.439 --> 1:42:33.640 like a like spokes almost like they're called rays, and 1:42:33.720 --> 1:42:36.880 those are they allow this transport of stuff from the 1:42:37.360 --> 1:42:39.479 near the bark side of the tree to the center. 1:42:39.520 --> 1:42:41.960 That's kind of like the dumping ground for waste products. 1:42:42.240 --> 1:42:44.759 And that's why in your walnut you're speaking of earlier, 1:42:44.920 --> 1:42:47.840 the prized wood is the dark wood, right, that's a 1:42:47.920 --> 1:42:54.480 product of phenols, terpenes, other kind of secondary compounds and products, 1:42:54.600 --> 1:42:57.879 chemicals that get sort of sent there and they discolor 1:42:57.960 --> 1:43:01.519 the wood. They place some t microbial kind of role, 1:43:01.560 --> 1:43:05.639 I think anti fungal roll, but they they discolor the wood. 1:43:05.720 --> 1:43:08.760 And and that's why the value in black walnut is 1:43:09.040 --> 1:43:12.320 all heartwood, because it has this thin band of relatively white, 1:43:12.560 --> 1:43:16.240 light colored wood around the outside. That's the most recently 1:43:16.320 --> 1:43:19.880 laid down, last few years worth of wood. That's still 1:43:20.720 --> 1:43:22.840 most of the cells there are dead, but there have 1:43:22.920 --> 1:43:25.200 some live cells within them, and that's the plumbing system, 1:43:25.240 --> 1:43:28.120 the vascular system of the tree that pumps water from 1:43:28.200 --> 1:43:31.639 and nutrients from the from the ground up and takes 1:43:31.720 --> 1:43:34.160 carbohydrates formed by the leaves and sends it to the 1:43:34.280 --> 1:43:38.240 roots and storage and through the stamato growing points. So 1:43:38.479 --> 1:43:42.599 that's mostly all happening just inside the bark, just inside 1:43:42.600 --> 1:43:46.080 the cambium, those the last several years, and it varies 1:43:46.160 --> 1:43:48.840 widely by species, so I'm generalizing, but it's the last 1:43:48.840 --> 1:43:52.240 it's the most recent wood near the outside of the tree, 1:43:52.320 --> 1:43:55.160 but still on the inside of the cambium that is sapwood, 1:43:55.520 --> 1:43:57.320 and it tends to be light colored, and where all 1:43:57.360 --> 1:44:02.000 this translocation is going on, and it's the center wood 1:44:02.160 --> 1:44:05.439 is the heartwood, which is kind of mostly structural. It's 1:44:05.520 --> 1:44:07.680 just allowing. It's like the telephone poll on which all 1:44:07.680 --> 1:44:10.000 the living cells just continue to elevate and try to 1:44:10.040 --> 1:44:14.360 access sunlight and outcompete their neighbors. It has some other 1:44:14.400 --> 1:44:17.000 stuff going on, as I mentioned, the storage, the discoloration, 1:44:17.479 --> 1:44:21.800 et cetera. So that's heartwood on the inside, sapwood on 1:44:21.880 --> 1:44:25.760 the outside of the inside, and then cambium and then 1:44:25.800 --> 1:44:31.920 bark outside that fat wood is it's not I should 1:44:31.960 --> 1:44:34.880 just you know, this is a Southern thing. Not my expertise, 1:44:34.920 --> 1:44:39.879 but my understanding is this is from softwoods, Southern yellow pines, 1:44:40.040 --> 1:44:42.720 pitch pine, lob lolly shortly, if I think, in particular, 1:44:43.160 --> 1:44:46.000 which are very big on resins, and in soft woods 1:44:46.040 --> 1:44:48.920 that's often inside that you know, in these these rays 1:44:48.960 --> 1:44:53.639 and other places where you have resin ducts that are 1:44:53.800 --> 1:44:58.040 kind of used to stop infection, keep insects at bay, 1:44:58.120 --> 1:45:01.599 et cetera, you have these deposits of that stuff which 1:45:01.640 --> 1:45:05.360 is really combustible, and so you split that kind of softwood, 1:45:05.360 --> 1:45:09.160 those those those pines that have that are high in 1:45:09.360 --> 1:45:13.519 those pitch compounds and they become just great kindling. It's 1:45:13.600 --> 1:45:16.240 dry and it has this extra flammable stuff in it. 1:45:16.760 --> 1:45:18.559 Where'd you get that big ol'pile that you had. 1:45:20.080 --> 1:45:23.600 I was suspecting it was from a fur. Well, just 1:45:23.680 --> 1:45:25.559 gives the shape of the base. 1:45:25.760 --> 1:45:30.200 So it's interesting about fur. Now, Doug fur is not 1:45:30.240 --> 1:45:34.400 a true fur. So if it was Douglas in my world, 1:45:34.520 --> 1:45:38.559 Doug fur is a fury because yeah, right, so it's 1:45:38.600 --> 1:45:42.160 called pseudo suga menziesia I is the Latin name because 1:45:42.200 --> 1:45:45.320 it's it's a it's that would be false. Yeah, well 1:45:45.520 --> 1:45:48.200 there's we could do a whole podcast on really fun names. 1:45:48.760 --> 1:45:51.600 Latin names they often mean something, right, But anyway, No, 1:45:51.960 --> 1:45:56.080 Douglas fur is not a true fur. It's not a fur. 1:45:56.520 --> 1:46:02.000 It's just that's why it's Douglas dash fur. It's a well, 1:46:02.000 --> 1:46:05.280 it's a false hemlock. It's uh, it's in its own 1:46:05.439 --> 1:46:10.120 kind of category. And so but all of those so 1:46:10.479 --> 1:46:14.160 it would have resins in pitch, whereas what do you 1:46:14.200 --> 1:46:17.519 have white fur, white bark? What's the white white fur? 1:46:17.760 --> 1:46:18.000 White? 1:46:20.160 --> 1:46:22.920 That's a pine. So the furs you have like you 1:46:23.720 --> 1:46:30.320 you have pines. Yeah, those wouldn't have the stuff. They're 1:46:30.360 --> 1:46:33.759 just owing to the peculiarities of of true fur wood. 1:46:34.080 --> 1:46:38.000 And then uh, where's where's like Tamarak fall. 1:46:39.600 --> 1:46:44.800 Another awesome species. Uh, and uh Western larch hyeah another name, 1:46:45.520 --> 1:46:49.360 it's its own genus. And uh, you know we have 1:46:49.400 --> 1:46:53.759 an Eastern tamarack, Eastern larch, there's Japanese larch. They're commonly planted, 1:46:54.680 --> 1:46:57.799 but they all have they're different because they're they're built differently, 1:46:57.880 --> 1:47:03.120 and they largely the exonomic differentiations based on reproductive parts, 1:47:03.800 --> 1:47:06.679 and they differ, but does also to translate they bring 1:47:06.720 --> 1:47:10.800 along other anatomical and physiological differences as well, so they're 1:47:10.840 --> 1:47:14.640 all kind of different in there grouped. So spruces are 1:47:14.680 --> 1:47:17.960 different from pines, are different from furs, are different from 1:47:18.200 --> 1:47:22.280 false furs are different from larches and tamaracks, and the 1:47:22.320 --> 1:47:25.200 way they it's usually it's for those to tell them 1:47:25.200 --> 1:47:27.240 apart by the cones that's and then you go from 1:47:27.240 --> 1:47:30.760 there to other characteristics that we kind of correlate with 1:47:30.800 --> 1:47:34.840 those differences too, so they all translate into different wood 1:47:34.880 --> 1:47:39.280 properties that end up being different for structural use, for 1:47:39.280 --> 1:47:43.800 for visual appeal, and for these ecological differences. 1:47:44.400 --> 1:47:47.639 For this fat would high of us that we're talking about, 1:47:48.160 --> 1:47:50.960 because you can light anything on fire with it, right, 1:47:51.080 --> 1:47:56.240 it's crazy, crazy, flammable. In my experience, it is a tree. 1:47:57.040 --> 1:47:59.639 Not that I've been around for this entire story, mind you, 1:47:59.840 --> 1:48:02.800 but it's what I've what I've put together from what 1:48:02.840 --> 1:48:05.840 I've discovered on the ground, right, is it's a tree 1:48:05.840 --> 1:48:08.679 that stood for a long time, dead, dead standing tree. 1:48:09.200 --> 1:48:15.559 All that resin has migrated down and super condensed at 1:48:15.560 --> 1:48:19.080 the base at the base, and then eventually that tree 1:48:19.120 --> 1:48:23.200 tips over and then those shards are super easy to 1:48:23.800 --> 1:48:28.519 harvest in sometimes very large chunks. But they are very, 1:48:28.640 --> 1:48:32.120 very dance, super heavy, right, And that's that's like if 1:48:32.160 --> 1:48:37.120 they're it's almost fossilized, like to me, like the really 1:48:37.120 --> 1:48:40.759 good stuff is it's got almost like a plastic sheen 1:48:40.880 --> 1:48:42.840 to it. Yes, very dance, very heavy. 1:48:43.240 --> 1:48:46.400 Yes, you should ask him, Calves all over this? Did 1:48:46.439 --> 1:48:47.720 I mention I don't know a lot about this? 1:48:48.439 --> 1:48:50.400 You did a little bit, Yeah, because you put it 1:48:50.400 --> 1:48:52.719 to another people, you put it to the acre and people. 1:48:52.760 --> 1:48:55.200 Yeah, exactly. But I and I don't mean to suggest 1:48:55.280 --> 1:48:59.000 that it doesn't exist in your western conifers. And it 1:48:59.040 --> 1:49:01.559 sounds like you've experienced that here, cal And that's that's 1:49:01.760 --> 1:49:04.800 all stands to reason to me, And I can't refute it. 1:49:04.920 --> 1:49:07.920 My my identification is piss poor like western large. 1:49:08.600 --> 1:49:12.519 No problem, right, yeah, you probably you've probably got. 1:49:12.439 --> 1:49:15.479 Cedars, yeah, no problem. Yeah, but I gotta get I 1:49:15.520 --> 1:49:17.240 gotta get better, gotta spend more time with seth. 1:49:17.400 --> 1:49:19.280 We can, we can help you with that. Yeah, it's 1:49:19.320 --> 1:49:21.799 knowable and it's good to know those difference, yes, yeah, 1:49:21.800 --> 1:49:24.920 for sure, quick side you know. And back in dendro uh, 1:49:25.000 --> 1:49:27.360 dendrology study of trees. The naming thing, it's kind of 1:49:27.360 --> 1:49:31.000 basic in a forestry course of study. Right. I was 1:49:31.080 --> 1:49:34.080 lucky to have a couple of really great professors. Uh. 1:49:34.240 --> 1:49:37.040 One of them hinto thing. It stuck with me forever. 1:49:37.240 --> 1:49:38.720 He said, when we go out and lab you know, 1:49:38.720 --> 1:49:40.000 you do with the lectures, but then you go out 1:49:40.040 --> 1:49:42.200 and you look at stuff. And he'd said, the last 1:49:42.200 --> 1:49:44.080 thing I'm going to tell you about this tree is 1:49:44.120 --> 1:49:46.200 what its name is. I'm going to tell you what 1:49:46.280 --> 1:49:48.759 it's doing here, how it got here, what it relates 1:49:48.760 --> 1:49:51.679 to everything else around it, the critters, et cetera. Because 1:49:51.920 --> 1:49:53.800 you know, that's what matters. And then we give it 1:49:53.800 --> 1:49:56.000 a name, and that's the handle and the way we 1:49:56.080 --> 1:49:58.200 speak about it. And I think that was a really 1:49:58.240 --> 1:50:01.479 important lesson for me and countless others, it's like, this 1:50:01.560 --> 1:50:04.720 is why I've said similarly, we like to say that, 1:50:05.160 --> 1:50:08.320 you know, we talk about forest ecology and people kind 1:50:08.320 --> 1:50:11.080 of well immediately start to get nervous, like that sounds 1:50:11.080 --> 1:50:13.840 hard or that's going to hurt. I think it's really 1:50:13.840 --> 1:50:16.639 helpful to think of forests more as a verb than 1:50:16.640 --> 1:50:22.360 a noun, like forest is like not forested or foresting, 1:50:22.479 --> 1:50:25.400 but like a forest because it's it's they're just defined 1:50:25.400 --> 1:50:29.360 by function and we're really connected to it. Even though 1:50:30.040 --> 1:50:32.280 we've lost that connection in a big way, which is 1:50:32.280 --> 1:50:34.120 a whole other topic. Maybe we can get to it, 1:50:34.200 --> 1:50:36.200 but I think it's really helpful to start with what 1:50:36.200 --> 1:50:38.280 are they doing? And that's what you're all about. You're 1:50:38.320 --> 1:50:40.800 noticing that out there, and you're probably more tuned into 1:50:40.840 --> 1:50:42.920 that than the names. You're like, oh, I'm bad at that. 1:50:43.479 --> 1:50:46.120 But my guess is because of what you do and 1:50:46.200 --> 1:50:48.800 your passion for spending time out there, you've got all 1:50:48.880 --> 1:50:51.519 kinds of knowledge about function that you don't even know 1:50:51.560 --> 1:50:54.559 about that you're just putting together. And that's what's really cool. 1:50:54.800 --> 1:50:56.280 I think about the woods, there's a lot of that 1:50:56.360 --> 1:50:56.760 going on. 1:50:56.960 --> 1:50:58.000 Yeah, what's eating that? 1:50:58.360 --> 1:50:58.599 Yeah? 1:50:58.640 --> 1:51:00.240 Exactly, what's whatever? 1:51:00.280 --> 1:51:01.639 Reason something likes to sleep there. 1:51:01.840 --> 1:51:05.800 Yeah, what sort of dude with the musket is camped 1:51:05.840 --> 1:51:10.800 out inside there? But I just I offer that as 1:51:10.920 --> 1:51:13.280 kind of a helpful kind of premises. Think about them 1:51:13.280 --> 1:51:17.400 more as functional and connected. And when we the more 1:51:17.439 --> 1:51:19.320 and better we do that, the more and better pretty 1:51:19.360 --> 1:51:21.760 much everything else will be about our relationship with for us. 1:51:21.760 --> 1:51:24.360 Oh, it's so yeah, you're you're so spot on, because 1:51:24.520 --> 1:51:26.320 like you know, I can run through like a field 1:51:26.320 --> 1:51:30.920 of wild flowers and name a handful, but when whoever 1:51:30.960 --> 1:51:36.320 I'm hiking with, when I'm like and that's larkspur poisonous 1:51:36.360 --> 1:51:39.640 to cattle, They're like, holy shit, yeah, exactly. 1:51:41.000 --> 1:51:41.520 Exactly. 1:51:44.920 --> 1:51:46.880 You remember how we had that conversation about how some 1:51:46.880 --> 1:51:50.040 stuff just is. Yeah, right, I think that maybe Ghoul 1:51:50.200 --> 1:51:52.360 or one of those guys even called with that just 1:51:52.680 --> 1:52:00.240 stuff that is it seems like paper birches being white 1:52:00.840 --> 1:52:01.840 maybe isn't just is? 1:52:02.720 --> 1:52:06.280 You're right, what's with that? I mean, they so stand 1:52:06.320 --> 1:52:08.800 out and everything's kind of green and brown, and then 1:52:08.800 --> 1:52:12.439 they're there, they are being all super white, and uh, 1:52:12.479 --> 1:52:15.679 where do they get off? Yeah? So, uh, the thinking 1:52:15.720 --> 1:52:19.599 here is that this one may maybe just no reason 1:52:19.600 --> 1:52:20.320 for it to go away. 1:52:20.920 --> 1:52:23.320 But there's a compelling case. 1:52:23.400 --> 1:52:26.479 There's a really compelling case that has been made that 1:52:26.760 --> 1:52:29.759 this is about where they live. Think about paper birch. 1:52:29.760 --> 1:52:33.800 It's transcontinental, it's circumpolar. It's one of those tree species 1:52:33.800 --> 1:52:37.200 that exists all around the North Country. 1:52:37.280 --> 1:52:40.160 Yeah, there's a band of latitudes, and no matter where 1:52:40.200 --> 1:52:42.320 you go on the planet, at that band of latitudes, 1:52:42.320 --> 1:52:43.080 you'll find that tree. 1:52:43.200 --> 1:52:46.280 Yes, and that latitude tends to be what in a 1:52:46.320 --> 1:52:47.080 general way. 1:52:47.439 --> 1:52:50.200 Around the fifties, well cold, Okay. 1:52:50.479 --> 1:52:52.840 Let's about the latitude, but the condition's there, right and uh, 1:52:53.360 --> 1:52:56.440 And so the short answer here is it's been positive 1:52:56.520 --> 1:52:59.519 that that. And it's true for other associates. You caught 1:52:59.560 --> 1:53:03.599 your asss here at higher elevations. They're kind of light barked, too, 1:53:04.200 --> 1:53:08.160 thin and light barked. Is uh suggested to be a 1:53:08.200 --> 1:53:12.880 mechanism to reflect solar radiation? Why would a tree ever 1:53:12.920 --> 1:53:19.200 want to push away? You say, it's thin and white, 1:53:19.520 --> 1:53:22.080 and this is to keep them from heating up in 1:53:22.160 --> 1:53:23.719 winter with solar radiation. 1:53:23.920 --> 1:53:26.519 It's like the opposite of what you think, right, But you. 1:53:26.479 --> 1:53:29.760 Know, I was just recently saw a piece of a 1:53:29.800 --> 1:53:32.080 black piece of paper on a wall and a white 1:53:32.080 --> 1:53:34.240 piece of paper next to it and said, you know, 1:53:34.280 --> 1:53:35.600 on a sunny day, go ahead and touch it. And 1:53:35.600 --> 1:53:37.599 you put your hand on the black, it's hot. Put 1:53:37.600 --> 1:53:39.680 your hand on the white, it's cool. And so like 1:53:39.720 --> 1:53:41.640 it really makes a difference. Why does this matter to 1:53:41.680 --> 1:53:46.280 the paper birch tree? Uh? In the winter in those 1:53:46.280 --> 1:53:49.519 cold climates, you don't want to they have there's green 1:53:49.600 --> 1:53:52.840 living cells tissue underneath that bark, and they're ready to 1:53:52.920 --> 1:53:55.960 rip if if the conditions are right. You don't want 1:53:55.960 --> 1:53:58.960 to warm up and then be like, oh, let's let's 1:53:59.080 --> 1:54:02.080 start some cellular activity here and then have right and 1:54:02.080 --> 1:54:04.479 then have a cloud move over and then it's back 1:54:04.520 --> 1:54:08.559 to you know, fifteen degrees and those cells die. So 1:54:08.640 --> 1:54:12.280 this is presumed to have evolved as a mechanism to 1:54:12.360 --> 1:54:15.160 allow them to live in these super cold environments and 1:54:15.240 --> 1:54:18.439 not turn on growth when it gets a little warm 1:54:18.479 --> 1:54:20.680 on the stem because the sun is hitting it for 1:54:20.720 --> 1:54:24.879 a while, which happens, so it's reflecting away that incoming 1:54:24.920 --> 1:54:28.400 solar radiation in the winter to avoid that damage that 1:54:28.439 --> 1:54:31.599 would ensue if they tried to get going. 1:54:32.000 --> 1:54:36.040 And what backs it up is you look at other 1:54:37.720 --> 1:54:43.560 northern deciduous trees and you start seeing that yeah, like 1:54:43.600 --> 1:54:44.800 they all get a little lighter. 1:54:44.920 --> 1:54:46.880 Yeah, they tend to exactly like. 1:54:47.000 --> 1:54:50.200 You get alders that have You get alders that are 1:54:50.240 --> 1:54:55.520 like not quite as dark aspens a northerly tree not white, 1:54:55.600 --> 1:54:57.240 but definitely not dark. 1:54:57.120 --> 1:55:01.080 Lighter exactly, whereas lower latitudes the propondence or trees have 1:55:01.320 --> 1:55:04.080 dark bark. Because maybe just the opposite. It's kind of 1:55:04.120 --> 1:55:06.480 good to get to stay warm when it's kind of 1:55:06.480 --> 1:55:08.800 cool out. You can heat it, you can warm up 1:55:09.320 --> 1:55:12.520 and you know, optimize your sort of metabolism and other 1:55:12.600 --> 1:55:16.600 physiological activity in in one a cool day because you're 1:55:16.640 --> 1:55:19.360 you're actually able to absorb a little warmth more warmth 1:55:19.400 --> 1:55:19.880 from the sun. 1:55:20.720 --> 1:55:22.440 Got one more for it, And I think Crane might 1:55:22.480 --> 1:55:27.840 have one. You know how old guns like you know, 1:55:27.880 --> 1:55:30.440 Clay was just Clay has got to see speaking acorns. 1:55:30.960 --> 1:55:37.240 Clay has got to see davy crockets, actual gun Betsy, Uh, 1:55:38.160 --> 1:55:43.440 what's that where some family owns it? Okay, you're talking 1:55:43.480 --> 1:55:47.800 about curly maple? Is curly and birds eye maple the 1:55:47.800 --> 1:55:48.200 same thing? 1:55:48.280 --> 1:55:51.760 Or no? No, not not as I understand that it's 1:55:51.880 --> 1:55:55.800 very similar as this, you know, particular grain pattern in 1:55:55.840 --> 1:56:01.240 the wood of particularly maples, sugar maple, hard maple where 1:56:01.400 --> 1:56:07.240 you get this tiger curly. Uh, is this wavelike pattern 1:56:07.520 --> 1:56:11.280 in certain views of the wood. That's just you know, 1:56:11.320 --> 1:56:13.680 it's just cool. It's favored, it's highly prized, and. 1:56:14.000 --> 1:56:16.960 It doesn't they'd like it for guns because it doesn't split. 1:56:17.160 --> 1:56:20.160 It's dense. It's right, it's not uniform in the direction 1:56:20.480 --> 1:56:23.080 of the grain. It's not all like, and so that 1:56:23.120 --> 1:56:24.840 would make it much harder to split. It's like a 1:56:24.840 --> 1:56:28.880 burrel that's kind of like almost like cells growing out 1:56:28.920 --> 1:56:29.360 of control. 1:56:29.560 --> 1:56:31.800 His references are genuine buck bowed and burl. 1:56:31.760 --> 1:56:36.400 Exactly, uh, which is beautiful and uh, that's that's like. 1:56:36.760 --> 1:56:39.880 He'll spot those from his airplane now and then nice, 1:56:39.960 --> 1:56:41.800 he'll spot a good one of them's airplane. You can 1:56:41.840 --> 1:56:42.680 go find it later. 1:56:42.760 --> 1:56:44.840 But it's important for your listeners to know the bulls 1:56:44.880 --> 1:56:53.680 don't grow on those trees. The burls doing there. So uh, 1:56:53.760 --> 1:56:58.120 you know that's so that's this you know, atypical Uh, 1:56:58.240 --> 1:57:03.640 cellular division in growth atypical with particular respect to direction 1:57:03.920 --> 1:57:07.840 of how it grows. And you get these funky growth 1:57:07.840 --> 1:57:11.480 patterns that are beautiful and they're really hard to split 1:57:11.520 --> 1:57:16.320 because it's kind of it's denser, probably, right, and so 1:57:18.320 --> 1:57:21.200 I write about here bird's eye, which is a particular 1:57:21.440 --> 1:57:26.360 type yet again of figure you might even say disfigure 1:57:26.480 --> 1:57:27.360 in maple wood. 1:57:27.400 --> 1:57:31.600 That's not a kind of maple, Like it's not a 1:57:31.680 --> 1:57:34.600 kind of maple in any maple or no, it tends 1:57:34.640 --> 1:57:35.000 to be. 1:57:35.120 --> 1:57:38.440 I think it's really limited to sugar maple. Let see, 1:57:39.120 --> 1:57:40.640 I don't know that I've ever seen or heard of 1:57:40.640 --> 1:57:42.400 it in a red maple or a silver maple. For 1:57:43.440 --> 1:57:48.680 But so it's this odd growth in terms of wood development, 1:57:49.360 --> 1:57:54.280 uh that it results in these little that little figures 1:57:54.320 --> 1:57:56.400 that look like bird's eyes. That's why it's called bird's eye. 1:57:56.400 --> 1:57:59.120 And when you have like a like a spray of 1:57:59.160 --> 1:58:02.880 them across a surface, it's quite beautiful and striking. And 1:58:02.960 --> 1:58:05.720 there's legend about you know which trees have the bird's 1:58:05.720 --> 1:58:08.920 eye in it, because you know it commands a premium price. 1:58:08.960 --> 1:58:12.160 When you sell a tree, a log that has bird's eye, 1:58:12.160 --> 1:58:13.800 you're gonna pull that and put in a different pile. 1:58:13.960 --> 1:58:16.640 And you know you're gonna put your veneer sort, your 1:58:16.640 --> 1:58:19.920 bird's eye sort, your firewood sort, your regular so sort, 1:58:19.960 --> 1:58:24.160 you know, and you're gonna market those differently. And this 1:58:24.200 --> 1:58:26.560 is the highest And there's little of it, so that 1:58:27.120 --> 1:58:29.920 accordingly there was this this this great you know, there's 1:58:29.960 --> 1:58:32.720 traditions of you know, I knew one landowner once he 1:58:32.800 --> 1:58:36.360 was convinced Canadians from Quebec were coming down marauding and 1:58:36.360 --> 1:58:40.320 stealing his his his uh with machetes were hacking away 1:58:40.360 --> 1:58:42.720 to look at the base of trees to look for 1:58:42.920 --> 1:58:44.080 evidence of bird's eye. 1:58:44.600 --> 1:58:45.200 Canadians. 1:58:45.360 --> 1:58:46.520 That's the Canadians, you know. 1:58:46.960 --> 1:58:49.200 Yeah, yeah, it'll surprising one bit. 1:58:49.600 --> 1:58:52.600 No, everybody knows a Canadian and a hand. 1:58:53.520 --> 1:58:57.280 I mean, I don't think George was really accurate on 1:58:57.280 --> 1:58:58.800 that one. But you know, this is the kind of 1:58:58.840 --> 1:58:59.400 lure and the. 1:58:59.360 --> 1:59:01.760 Things that that till tale hack mark. 1:59:03.960 --> 1:59:08.320 I had one forester who helped me. We were looking 1:59:08.360 --> 1:59:11.440 and and he he's convinced that there's this like coke bottle, 1:59:12.040 --> 1:59:14.800 the old fashioned coke bottom coke bottle that at the 1:59:14.800 --> 1:59:17.600 bottom it's one diameter, but then it tapers and then 1:59:17.600 --> 1:59:19.920 it comes back up again. And then he would see 1:59:20.040 --> 1:59:23.160 that in certain sugar maple stems near the base and 1:59:23.160 --> 1:59:26.040 he'd say, oh, let's look at that, and he he 1:59:26.160 --> 1:59:29.200 has a correlation there, and yeah, and he's looking for 1:59:29.240 --> 1:59:32.440 bird's eye. Yeah, and everyone's got their way of doing it, 1:59:32.520 --> 1:59:36.960 you know, and it's a really low percentage of the 1:59:37.000 --> 1:59:39.760 trees that have it. It is it's not really well 1:59:39.840 --> 1:59:43.040 understood why, but it basically comes from any kind of 1:59:43.080 --> 1:59:45.720 a ding in the tree that can it's an injury. 1:59:45.720 --> 1:59:47.520 It could be could be a bird pack, it could 1:59:47.560 --> 1:59:51.960 be somebody getting crazy with their lawnmower, you know, whacking it, 1:59:52.120 --> 1:59:56.360 uh uh, or any number of things that go wrong 1:59:56.400 --> 1:59:58.600 out there that can in the young life of a 1:59:58.640 --> 2:00:01.400 tree can ding it and then that little the wound 2:00:01.480 --> 2:00:05.160 response that trees have can result in this in this 2:00:05.320 --> 2:00:08.640 particular case of like this this odd, gross pattern that 2:00:08.680 --> 2:00:12.520 then results in you know, ironically enough, highly valuable wood 2:00:12.600 --> 2:00:13.720 that was from damage. 2:00:14.200 --> 2:00:16.360 When that when that term first caught my interest, I 2:00:16.400 --> 2:00:19.240 was reading something in the Great Lakes region about what 2:00:19.480 --> 2:00:24.280 was floated down a river and it named species of trees, 2:00:25.040 --> 2:00:27.000 but then included in the list was that they would 2:00:27.040 --> 2:00:30.480 float birds, eye maple down the river, and I thought 2:00:30.520 --> 2:00:33.920 it was peculiar that they were like grading it, right, 2:00:34.560 --> 2:00:38.000 And then someone took note of that that that specifically 2:00:38.120 --> 2:00:40.040 is what they're sending down the river, right, because it's 2:00:40.240 --> 2:00:42.040 no you know, maybe maybe it was what maybe that's 2:00:42.040 --> 2:00:43.640 too dense to float, and they wouldn't send it down 2:00:43.680 --> 2:00:45.400 the river, but they were like sledging it out whatever 2:00:45.440 --> 2:00:47.160 the hell it was. It was like it was like 2:00:47.400 --> 2:00:52.000 white pine or whatever, white pine, oak, birds eye, maple, right, you. 2:00:51.960 --> 2:00:55.160 Know, and that's to be you know, that's reflecting. It's 2:00:55.400 --> 2:00:59.600 its economic value. That's like way more than your garden 2:00:59.680 --> 2:01:01.000 variety saw timber. 2:01:01.240 --> 2:01:03.560 I got a real broad question for it, and we 2:01:03.600 --> 2:01:05.520 can skip it if you don't want to tackle it. 2:01:05.600 --> 2:01:08.960 But do you have anything you want to say about fire? 2:01:09.320 --> 2:01:13.920 Like I'm just interested in regards like how we do 2:01:14.040 --> 2:01:16.760 with fire in the US right now, in regards to 2:01:16.800 --> 2:01:17.560 our forests. 2:01:17.640 --> 2:01:19.520 Yeah, there's a lot here and I'm happy to speak 2:01:19.560 --> 2:01:22.320 to it. Recognizing as a caveat right, I'm from the 2:01:22.360 --> 2:01:26.960 northeast said to be the asbestos forest. I'll quickly point 2:01:27.000 --> 2:01:29.720 out that, like I think asbestos burns, it just burns 2:01:30.080 --> 2:01:34.200 at really particular conditions. So we have in from Moht 2:01:34.200 --> 2:01:36.520 we had like we have like four hundred acres of 2:01:36.880 --> 2:01:39.960 like wildfire a year, mostly brush burners getting out of 2:01:40.000 --> 2:01:42.640 control at the wrong time. Yere, it's after snow melt, 2:01:42.680 --> 2:01:45.440 before leaf out. So the point is we don't have 2:01:45.880 --> 2:01:48.320 these days great incidents of wildland fire. We had a 2:01:48.360 --> 2:01:50.680 history of it. There's whole paper bird stands in the 2:01:50.680 --> 2:01:55.879 Green Mountains that were originated in the early nineteen hundreds 2:01:55.880 --> 2:01:59.000 with railroads and lack of spark arrestors and a different 2:01:59.000 --> 2:02:01.080 forest type without a lot of spruce slash on the 2:02:01.080 --> 2:02:02.800 ground and how they found it. So we have a 2:02:02.920 --> 2:02:07.680 history of fire, but it's really been very wet relatively speaking, 2:02:07.720 --> 2:02:11.200 and it's known as the asbestos force, whereas out here 2:02:11.400 --> 2:02:13.120 it's a big deal and it has been for some time. 2:02:13.160 --> 2:02:14.880 And I think it was kind of well said that 2:02:14.920 --> 2:02:17.760 somebody I heard say, like smoky light a little bit, 2:02:17.840 --> 2:02:21.320 you know, like fire is a part of these ecosystems. 2:02:21.360 --> 2:02:25.400 There are certain species that what we call serotinous cones. 2:02:25.480 --> 2:02:27.760 They need the heat of fire to open as an 2:02:27.760 --> 2:02:30.320 adaptive strategy to shoot their seeds out and land in 2:02:30.320 --> 2:02:33.240 that seed bed that's been prepared by fire. You mentioned 2:02:33.240 --> 2:02:36.280 the thick bark, say a giant sequoia. It's fire adapted, 2:02:36.320 --> 2:02:40.040 and so fire is part of the ecosystem. We've done 2:02:40.080 --> 2:02:44.360 an incredibly good job of eliminating it to the detriment 2:02:44.480 --> 2:02:47.440 of the ecological kind of functioning. And now we have 2:02:48.160 --> 2:02:52.000 monocultures and we have the clear cut and plant and 2:02:52.480 --> 2:02:54.800 keep fire out. And this is just a recipe for 2:02:55.000 --> 2:02:58.080 disaster and you're seeing it now and now it's exacerbated 2:02:58.080 --> 2:03:03.560 by climate change. Mountain pine bead and this is this 2:03:03.800 --> 2:03:08.400 perfect storm. And again I should say, you know, remember 2:03:08.440 --> 2:03:13.080 I'm from the Northeast. Uh, you know, I don't. I 2:03:13.120 --> 2:03:15.480 don't live it. And there's a lot here, as you're 2:03:15.520 --> 2:03:19.040 all well aware, and it's very intense. But I think 2:03:19.080 --> 2:03:21.640 for me, I'm willing to say we have a problem 2:03:21.840 --> 2:03:24.880 in having excluded fire for so long that now we 2:03:24.960 --> 2:03:27.920 have a whole new approaches to fuels management, fuel load 2:03:28.000 --> 2:03:32.040 reduction that's going to require, you know, people getting involved 2:03:32.040 --> 2:03:36.120 and actually doing stuff and thinking differently about fire. We 2:03:36.200 --> 2:03:40.080 do use controlled burn prescribe fire in certain natural community 2:03:40.080 --> 2:03:42.600 types in the Northeast because they've evolved with it. Pitch 2:03:42.640 --> 2:03:45.960 pine sandplane communities for example, need that fire. And we 2:03:46.040 --> 2:03:48.640 go out and set fires and it's really not popular 2:03:48.680 --> 2:03:51.200 with the neighbors, you know, with smoke and everything else 2:03:51.320 --> 2:03:55.640 is dangerous and it's really carefully controlled. So there needs 2:03:55.680 --> 2:03:58.880 to there's a role for fire naturally and now because 2:03:58.880 --> 2:04:05.280 everything's so unnatural over you know, decades, centuries really or 2:04:05.320 --> 2:04:08.120 at least a century. We're we're in a position where 2:04:08.400 --> 2:04:11.960 we're vulnerable and it's kind of meeting up with these 2:04:11.960 --> 2:04:16.120 other forces climate change, drought, et cetera that are exacerbating it. 2:04:16.240 --> 2:04:20.520 And it means intervention is called for and new approaches 2:04:20.560 --> 2:04:25.000 to forest management that think differently about wildland fire. And 2:04:25.040 --> 2:04:26.680 now we have more and more people living in that 2:04:27.200 --> 2:04:32.720 urban wildland fire interface, right and you know, fire wise communities, 2:04:32.760 --> 2:04:36.080 like we've we've had to shift a lot of things 2:04:36.080 --> 2:04:38.480 because of it. I don't know, there's there's a lot here. 2:04:38.640 --> 2:04:43.040 Oh yeah, and uh and I think it's easy to say, 2:04:43.200 --> 2:04:45.200 you know, kind of like we need more fire, but 2:04:45.440 --> 2:04:48.760 not if you live there. I mean, it's people's homes, livelihoods. 2:04:48.960 --> 2:04:52.280 It's it's a it's a hot mess really in a 2:04:52.320 --> 2:04:54.960 lot of ways. But even ecologically, I think there's a 2:04:55.000 --> 2:04:57.240 case it's made that we got to get this right, 2:04:57.360 --> 2:04:59.880 and we were a long way from being right there. 2:05:00.120 --> 2:05:02.840 Now you ever feel bad for a tree sawing into it? 2:05:03.640 --> 2:05:06.520 No, you know, honestly, And I'm really glad you asked, 2:05:06.520 --> 2:05:09.560 because all these things are balance and balance is a 2:05:09.560 --> 2:05:12.000 poor word. It's it's no balance when humans are involved. 2:05:12.040 --> 2:05:15.480 We have a incredible footprint on this planet. We ask 2:05:15.560 --> 2:05:18.440 a lot of these forests. And that's that's a big 2:05:18.480 --> 2:05:21.120 thing for me, is just that we are so disconnected 2:05:21.160 --> 2:05:24.240 generally as a as a culture from our daily consumption 2:05:24.280 --> 2:05:26.240 of wood products. You know, we're really into things like 2:05:26.280 --> 2:05:30.080 the burrow bowl and that don't hurt tree, you know, 2:05:30.200 --> 2:05:34.200 but but we use an awful lot of woods, do 2:05:34.320 --> 2:05:39.280 I get? I will tell you that when I when I, 2:05:39.600 --> 2:05:41.000 you know, cut a tree and you put a saw 2:05:41.040 --> 2:05:43.040 into a tree, I think about it. I'm like, and 2:05:43.320 --> 2:05:45.120 when I'm out there with the paint gun marking trees 2:05:45.120 --> 2:05:47.000 for harvest, I'm like, really, what am I going to 2:05:47.080 --> 2:05:47.920 make this place better? 2:05:48.000 --> 2:05:48.280 Really? 2:05:48.720 --> 2:05:50.880 And then so I think the premise for me is 2:05:51.280 --> 2:05:54.920 forests don't need us, but we really need them. In 2:05:54.960 --> 2:05:59.120 the in the history of people, there's never been a 2:05:59.160 --> 2:06:04.920 time when people weren't utterly dependent on wood for shelter, fuel, tools. 2:06:05.040 --> 2:06:08.760 You know, where's the evidence that it's ever going to change. 2:06:08.880 --> 2:06:11.320 In fact, we're moving back to wood from plastics and 2:06:11.440 --> 2:06:15.880 all kinds of cellulostic applications that basically anything made from 2:06:15.880 --> 2:06:19.600 plastic was once or could be made from wood, which 2:06:19.640 --> 2:06:22.160 is renewable if you do it right. It's not automatic. 2:06:22.440 --> 2:06:24.480 So we have to look at our just acknowledge our 2:06:24.520 --> 2:06:26.760 consumption of wood, and then we have to probably dial 2:06:26.800 --> 2:06:28.560 it back a little bit, and then we need to 2:06:28.560 --> 2:06:30.800 think about a new relationship with the land and how 2:06:30.840 --> 2:06:34.360 we obtain our wood and do it differently so that 2:06:34.560 --> 2:06:36.520 it and I think it's really possible. And that's what 2:06:36.640 --> 2:06:39.760 really excites me and keeps me going is and to 2:06:39.840 --> 2:06:43.200 somewhat to some extent a proselytizer, I suppose about an 2:06:43.280 --> 2:06:47.080 ecological forestry that is available to us now, and that 2:06:47.160 --> 2:06:50.480 can that's honest in that it meets our needs. And 2:06:50.560 --> 2:06:53.720 so every article I've read, we discussed this a bit, Kren. 2:06:53.840 --> 2:06:56.400 They go on about, well we need trees and the 2:06:56.400 --> 2:07:00.080 biodiversity crisis and the climate crisis. It's all true, but 2:07:00.720 --> 2:07:02.720 every one of them, I don't know that. I don't 2:07:02.760 --> 2:07:05.120 know that I've ever seen one that that that didn't 2:07:05.160 --> 2:07:09.680 stop short of saying, yeah, it's because of us, like 2:07:09.720 --> 2:07:13.320 we So I'm seeing documentaries that say it's because we're 2:07:13.320 --> 2:07:15.040 we're cutting these trees down and turning them into two 2:07:15.080 --> 2:07:17.480 by fours, and they stopped there, as if we're just 2:07:17.520 --> 2:07:19.680 doing that for a joy ride. We're putting them into 2:07:19.680 --> 2:07:23.560 two by fours because people are we need human habitat too, right, 2:07:24.040 --> 2:07:26.680 And so what's the deal here? We got to get 2:07:26.720 --> 2:07:30.880 past this very convenient Uh. The answer trees are we've 2:07:31.720 --> 2:07:34.320 we've The pandemic showed us how important it is for 2:07:34.360 --> 2:07:37.840 people to get outside historic spikes in outdoor recreation. That's 2:07:37.880 --> 2:07:39.880 really good. It puts pressure on certain places, but it's 2:07:39.920 --> 2:07:43.480 really good. It also showed us that is the pandemic 2:07:43.480 --> 2:07:46.000 showed us this how vulnerable we are in this global 2:07:46.000 --> 2:07:51.480 supply chain of wood products. In Vermont, in the immediate shutdown, forestry, 2:07:51.680 --> 2:07:55.840 logging and manufacturing wood products was not considered essential, and 2:07:55.960 --> 2:07:59.200 as Commissioner and the Deputy Commissioner and I our phones 2:07:59.200 --> 2:08:00.960 were ringing off the hook for about a twenty four 2:08:00.960 --> 2:08:03.120 hour periocing, you gotta be kidney. We have hospitals that 2:08:03.160 --> 2:08:05.440 are heated with wood. A third of from our school 2:08:05.520 --> 2:08:08.600 children go to schools heated by wood. All the Amazon 2:08:08.640 --> 2:08:12.720 packaging it comes from trees, man tongue depressors, it swabs, 2:08:12.720 --> 2:08:14.800 and all this medical supplies that were made from wood 2:08:15.400 --> 2:08:17.800 that were needed now in a big way in the pandemic. 2:08:17.840 --> 2:08:21.120 And yet we weren't be so two things, the pandemic 2:08:21.200 --> 2:08:23.600 for its shining a light on the importance of people 2:08:23.600 --> 2:08:27.640 getting outside and connecting with nature. And it's shone a 2:08:27.720 --> 2:08:31.280 light on our vulnerability and our dependence on wood, and 2:08:31.320 --> 2:08:33.560 our vulnerability and a global supply chain that we don't 2:08:33.560 --> 2:08:37.160 control everything. That combined with climate change, which has put 2:08:37.200 --> 2:08:39.160 a bright light on the importance of forests as our 2:08:39.240 --> 2:08:42.560 last best hope at mitigating atmospheric CO two and conferring 2:08:43.200 --> 2:08:47.040 enormous landscape resilience in a changing climate. You'd think that 2:08:47.120 --> 2:08:49.720 those two things putting all this new light, they'd be 2:08:49.720 --> 2:08:51.800 being like these forestry people were right all along. 2:08:51.600 --> 2:08:52.840 We really give them more money. 2:08:52.920 --> 2:08:56.000 Yeah, and you know, and now it didn't. In turn, 2:08:56.200 --> 2:08:59.920 what it turned out is we gotta stop logging upub 2:09:00.880 --> 2:09:03.360 I got sued as a commissioner I've personally named in 2:09:03.400 --> 2:09:06.720 a lawsuit saying we're illegally logging, which is just the science, 2:09:06.760 --> 2:09:09.320 the settled law of the land, and the you know, 2:09:09.520 --> 2:09:14.120 economic realities, don't they all say something different. But the 2:09:14.160 --> 2:09:17.320 reaction to these things is let's trees are good, let's 2:09:17.360 --> 2:09:21.960 leave them alone. And that's fine if you don't have 2:09:22.000 --> 2:09:24.760 any need for them. So I'm back to Forrest's met 2:09:25.280 --> 2:09:29.200 forest don't need us, we need them. With one exception, 2:09:29.360 --> 2:09:32.520 forests do need us when we've commed them up significantly, 2:09:32.560 --> 2:09:35.640 invasive species, all the fire thing. So we do have 2:09:35.680 --> 2:09:38.000 to kind of get back in there. But generally it 2:09:38.040 --> 2:09:41.800 begins with and we need them. And until we confront 2:09:41.840 --> 2:09:45.960 that massive need and consumption, we're not gonna get anywhere 2:09:45.960 --> 2:09:48.680 in policy. And we need a culture that is of 2:09:48.680 --> 2:09:50.560 the land from the land. And I feel like this 2:09:50.600 --> 2:09:53.840 is a real strong parallel with your conservation work and 2:09:53.880 --> 2:09:57.160 the mission at the Meat Eater for being realistic about 2:09:57.200 --> 2:09:59.920 food and about where it comes from and and honest 2:10:00.080 --> 2:10:03.320 league acquiring it and in a way that's you know, 2:10:03.360 --> 2:10:05.960 the North American model, and like it's a way of 2:10:06.000 --> 2:10:08.839 conservation and it's it's this is a very parallel story 2:10:09.520 --> 2:10:11.760 real Finally, I'll tell you what the Commissioner of Fishing 2:10:11.760 --> 2:10:15.120 Wildlife previously when I was there, he was getting a 2:10:15.160 --> 2:10:17.920 lot of flak from Protect our Wildlife bills to you've 2:10:17.960 --> 2:10:21.320 written about them, anti trapping, anti hounding, a lot of 2:10:21.360 --> 2:10:24.240 anti hunting, fishing stuff going on right now in the Northeast, 2:10:24.600 --> 2:10:26.680 and he was saying, you know, we'd go out and 2:10:26.800 --> 2:10:29.720 co miserate and have dinner a beer or something, and 2:10:30.120 --> 2:10:31.880 he'd say, you know, it's over and I'm like, yeah, 2:10:31.920 --> 2:10:34.760 it's a drag man, it's over for you. And he's like, well, 2:10:34.880 --> 2:10:37.240 won't Joe, it'd be too comfortable. They're coming your way. 2:10:37.640 --> 2:10:39.720 And I was like, no, No, people get trees and 2:10:39.760 --> 2:10:41.120 wood and we use it. And you know what, I 2:10:41.200 --> 2:10:43.840 think he was right. It's like it's like, it feels 2:10:43.920 --> 2:10:45.840 like it's kind of over, and maybe we just have 2:10:45.880 --> 2:10:48.640 to go this really dark period of disconnection from the 2:10:48.720 --> 2:10:52.280 land before things are going to really go bad, and 2:10:52.320 --> 2:10:54.360 then maybe someday we'll get hip to it and come 2:10:54.400 --> 2:10:54.960 back around. 2:10:55.280 --> 2:10:58.880 I think that there's a there's a little bit of 2:10:58.920 --> 2:11:01.680 a mental trap into and I'm guilty of it too, 2:11:01.680 --> 2:11:06.760 where I'm comfortable looking at a piece of wildlife habitat. 2:11:07.240 --> 2:11:08.840 I'm going to use a tree analogy, which is going 2:11:08.880 --> 2:11:11.400 to confuse things, But I'm comfortable looking at a piece 2:11:11.440 --> 2:11:17.320 of wildlife habitat as an apple tree, an ache, an oak, okay. 2:11:17.480 --> 2:11:20.960 And when you kill a bear, kill a deer, you're 2:11:21.280 --> 2:11:26.000 picking up acorns, meaning you maintain the integrity of the tree. 2:11:26.960 --> 2:11:29.440 The tree is going to continue to drop acorns. You 2:11:29.480 --> 2:11:34.760 can use these acorns in a measured way and the 2:11:34.760 --> 2:11:37.760 tree stays there. So it's the thing I try to 2:11:37.760 --> 2:11:40.560 explain to people often about why hunters spend so much 2:11:40.560 --> 2:11:44.960 time talking about the well being of habitat. Conservation minded 2:11:45.120 --> 2:11:46.840 individuals spend a lot of time talking about the well 2:11:46.880 --> 2:11:49.120 being of habitat, but they don't spend a lot of 2:11:49.160 --> 2:11:52.240 time talking about the well being of an individual deer. Right, 2:11:52.320 --> 2:11:55.600 the fewd is expendable, a product of the bigger thing. 2:11:57.520 --> 2:12:01.440 But man, like I have a play that's it's old 2:12:01.520 --> 2:12:10.400 growth coastal rainforest. Okay, in my yard, so to speak, 2:12:11.280 --> 2:12:17.520 we have cedars that are what are they said, six 2:12:17.640 --> 2:12:22.480 seven feet I don't know, yeah, or diameters bigger. I'll 2:12:22.480 --> 2:12:24.000 shoot all of deer in the world, not all dew 2:12:24.040 --> 2:12:26.440 in the world, but at a measured pace, with giving 2:12:26.440 --> 2:12:29.520 them time to replace. I'd be comfortable with getting deer 2:12:29.560 --> 2:12:34.600 the rest of my life. I could not. I could not, 2:12:35.680 --> 2:12:38.000 And it's just me. I'm not condemning someone that does. 2:12:38.120 --> 2:12:40.360 I personally would not be able to stick. 2:12:40.160 --> 2:12:42.200 A song onto that tree, right, and I wouldn't. 2:12:42.400 --> 2:12:44.200 I don't know why, Like I don't, but I don't 2:12:44.200 --> 2:12:47.200 know why it's like because that thing's been there since 2:12:47.200 --> 2:12:48.960 before the country was a country. 2:12:48.640 --> 2:12:50.440 And that's it. That's the answer. And they're damn few 2:12:50.480 --> 2:12:53.080 of those, and especially in association with others in this 2:12:53.160 --> 2:12:56.200 functional unit, like that's special. And so, don't get me wrong, 2:12:56.240 --> 2:12:58.520 I'm not arguing that we need to just mow down 2:12:58.560 --> 2:13:01.120 every acre hilly or fly. I get what I'm saying 2:13:01.280 --> 2:13:02.600 we need to have, but where you're going to need 2:13:02.600 --> 2:13:04.480 to meet it, and it's possible. There's this sort of 2:13:04.520 --> 2:13:06.880 triad model that's been put out there this years ago. 2:13:06.920 --> 2:13:09.200 It's actually a professor of wildlife biology at the Universe 2:13:09.280 --> 2:13:11.880 Humane coined this idea of the triad approach to kind 2:13:11.880 --> 2:13:15.520 of land use. That there's intensively managed areas with maybe 2:13:15.560 --> 2:13:18.880 even clear cutting plant in his day, and then there's 2:13:19.400 --> 2:13:21.680 wildland reserves they need to be part of the mix. 2:13:21.720 --> 2:13:25.800 And then the vast space in between is an ecological 2:13:25.800 --> 2:13:28.080 forestry that's you don't cut all those, maybe you don't 2:13:28.080 --> 2:13:30.440 cut any of those, and it's the site dependent and 2:13:30.680 --> 2:13:34.560 and it's about natural regeneration and retaining you know, the 2:13:34.600 --> 2:13:37.360 great Alder Leopold, he said, right, the first precaution of 2:13:37.360 --> 2:13:40.720 intelligent tinkering is to keep every cog and wheel. Doesn't 2:13:40.760 --> 2:13:44.000 mean keep all the trees, but keep all the representatives 2:13:44.000 --> 2:13:46.760 of the different types and like keep the function alive. 2:13:46.880 --> 2:13:49.920 So that's what modern forestry is in my mind. It's 2:13:49.960 --> 2:13:51.560 beautiful and it's needed. 2:13:52.280 --> 2:13:55.520 Yeah, just I don't like. I don't like where I 2:13:55.600 --> 2:13:59.600 left my comment because I failed to acknowledge like another 2:13:59.640 --> 2:14:04.840 part of the being that that as a hunter, I 2:14:04.880 --> 2:14:08.520 can look at the habitat and be the integrity of 2:14:08.560 --> 2:14:13.400 the habitat will be able to put off game. But 2:14:13.640 --> 2:14:17.600 I like what you're proposing that the integrity, If the 2:14:17.640 --> 2:14:22.840 forest's integrity is kept intact, it'll continue to put off 2:14:24.280 --> 2:14:27.560 forestry products, meaning the same way that a deer. You'll 2:14:27.600 --> 2:14:31.960 be like, well, no, that deer is expendable as long 2:14:31.960 --> 2:14:36.600 as the big broad mechanism is capable of making more 2:14:36.640 --> 2:14:39.720 of them in perpetuity. So like, yeah, but like what 2:14:39.760 --> 2:14:44.120 you're what you're looking at with forest cares is the tree. 2:14:44.560 --> 2:14:48.120 That tree, it's older than a deer significantly, but those 2:14:48.160 --> 2:14:51.040 trees can come out and that forest can maintain its 2:14:51.080 --> 2:14:54.160 integrity and make more. The time scale is very different. 2:14:54.720 --> 2:14:58.120 Work here is done the time scale, it won't be 2:14:58.200 --> 2:15:01.320 ready for harvest in a year, but it'll be ready 2:15:01.320 --> 2:15:01.919 for hart. 2:15:02.240 --> 2:15:06.080 It's great stuff and there's a lot here. Uh. 2:15:06.120 --> 2:15:09.720 The book we've been talking about is Woodwise, woods Wise, 2:15:09.800 --> 2:15:12.160 Wo's wise. I looked at that title for a couple 2:15:12.160 --> 2:15:13.879 minutes trying to figure out it should have been punctuated 2:15:13.920 --> 2:15:15.880 differently or anything. But I think you nailed it all right. 2:15:15.920 --> 2:15:20.080 Man hardly wanted to put like a an apostrophe, but 2:15:20.080 --> 2:15:22.400 it would have been an impostor yeah, it would have 2:15:22.400 --> 2:15:26.680 been an impost apostrophe. Woods Wise, an Exploration of Forests 2:15:26.720 --> 2:15:31.480 and Forestry by Michael Snyder. Can you buy us on 2:15:31.480 --> 2:15:32.640 Amazon and all that kind of place? 2:15:32.720 --> 2:15:35.400 You sure can. We like to support local bookstores, but 2:15:36.080 --> 2:15:36.560 you know, just. 2:15:36.520 --> 2:15:38.760 Be listen, me too, me too. If I know that 2:15:38.840 --> 2:15:41.560 some people you don't have access to it, and they're 2:15:41.560 --> 2:15:42.280 not you know what I mean? 2:15:42.360 --> 2:15:43.560 And I hope people will look. 2:15:44.080 --> 2:15:46.160 We got people to listen to the show an Interior Alaska. 2:15:46.200 --> 2:15:48.200 It's like, this is not it's just an option for him. 2:15:48.120 --> 2:15:50.600 God bless him. And yes it is available on Amazon 2:15:50.840 --> 2:15:51.440 and by all. 2:15:51.400 --> 2:15:52.960 Means, if you if you got a way to do it, 2:15:54.440 --> 2:15:57.560 if you've got a way to do it, UH, help 2:15:57.600 --> 2:15:59.320 out local bookstores because you can go down there and 2:15:59.400 --> 2:16:01.400 find books you know about and it's great. But I'm 2:16:01.520 --> 2:16:05.160 like I said, yeah, I also want people just to read. 2:16:05.120 --> 2:16:08.440 Exactly what it takes. Remember I used to say, like 2:16:08.880 --> 2:16:10.400 you got to think out of the box. I think 2:16:10.400 --> 2:16:12.680 we need to lower like I think we just need 2:16:12.720 --> 2:16:16.680 to think where you're thinking. Like let's not get like, 2:16:16.800 --> 2:16:18.960 let's we'll get to that, like where are you thinking? 2:16:20.640 --> 2:16:23.360 So can we get some thinking going on? 2:16:24.840 --> 2:16:27.280 Uh, it's a lot of fun. Woods Wise and Expiration 2:16:27.360 --> 2:16:29.520 of Forrest and Forest Street. Michael Snyder, Michael, thanks for 2:16:29.520 --> 2:16:31.640 coming on the show man my pleasure, Thanks for having me. 2:16:31.680 --> 2:16:51.920 Thanks, Thanks Michael, Seal Gray shine like silver in the sun. 2:16:55.720 --> 2:17:00.520 Right right, Oh my. 2:17:00.720 --> 2:17:07.280 Life, sweetheart, We're done, beat this damp horse to death, 2:17:08.480 --> 2:17:15.520 taking a new one and ride away. We're done, beat 2:17:15.680 --> 2:17:20.400 this damn horse to death, so take a new one 2:17:21.280 --> 2:17:22.000 and ride on.