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Speaker 1: If this is the me Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listeningcast, you can't

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Speaker 1: predict anything presented by First Light, creating proven versatile hunting

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Speaker 1: apparel from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear. For every hunt,

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Speaker 1: first Light, Go farther, stay longer. All right, we're in

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Speaker 1: our brand new studio. It's like Phil died. I couldn't

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Speaker 1: I When I got in, I was so it was

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Speaker 1: like I was sad and I realized that it's like

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Speaker 1: Phil died.

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Speaker 2: I'm still here, I promise, Yeah, but I wouldn't know

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Speaker 2: that that's true.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you can't see him behind all taking.

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Speaker 4: From beyond the veil.

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Speaker 3: He's like, yeah, it's like a ghost.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he's got like a little command and control center

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Speaker 1: where it was like purposefully set up to not like

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Speaker 1: you could. You wouldn't even know. Even right now, sitting

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Speaker 1: here looking for him, I wouldn't know he's in here.

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Speaker 3: It's like it's like the Wizard of Oz.

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Speaker 4: Just pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

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Speaker 1: Cal suggested we get like a heart rate monitor up

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Speaker 1: on the wall above Phil so we could at least

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Speaker 1: see his vitals.

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Speaker 4: I think Steve would have some fun games with that

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Speaker 4: that would be very confusing to the listener, trying to

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Speaker 4: see how he can spike poor Phil's heart rate.

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Speaker 1: Back there, Man, one time I had I was doing

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Speaker 1: this uh this life insurance policy where I had to lamp.

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Speaker 1: Some dude came over and I had to lamb my

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Speaker 1: couch and he hooked me up to a bunch and

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Speaker 1: put a bunch of those little stickies on me to

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Speaker 1: monitor your heart rate, you know. And I'm laying on

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Speaker 1: my couch and periodically you could hear I could hear

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Speaker 1: my kids fight upstairs, you know, and you here like Matthew,

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Speaker 1: stop it right. And I had and I'm and I

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Speaker 1: had to be on this thing for twenty minutes. And

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Speaker 1: I asked the guy, can you see that? He goes,

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, he goes every time that like when those

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Speaker 1: kids make that stomach noise.

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Speaker 3: Nice.

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Speaker 1: It takes a toll on you, man, slowly kills you.

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Speaker 1: But back to Phil, He Phil, why you got it

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Speaker 1: wrapped up in black blankets and stuff? Back there?

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Speaker 2: It's another temporary solution, Steve. It's a there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of cables. I was trying to make it less of

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Speaker 2: an isore. I think it might have had the opposite effect.

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Speaker 1: He's waiting on a little coffin. He's waiting on a

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Speaker 1: little coffin. Or he'll hide back there. Yeah, we've been

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Speaker 1: talking about Phil is going to get a DJ deal,

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Speaker 1: like a platform Yeah, because picture well, no, DJs don't

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Speaker 1: use screens.

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Speaker 5: Though, no, they don't. Put they're on platforms. You should, like,

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Speaker 5: you should take a picture of him and and be like,

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Speaker 5: where's Phil? Post it and just see if anyone can

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Speaker 5: can really see that he's back there.

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Speaker 1: It's killing me. Join Today by author and Forrester, Michael Schneider.

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Speaker 1: Do you go like a Snyder?

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Speaker 6: It's Snyder like Schneider, not like Schneider.

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Speaker 1: Not like Krin.

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Speaker 6: It's it's been anglicized from the Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Uh man. When I got your book woods Wise, I'm trying,

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Speaker 1: sad to say, this is the nicest way possible. I

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Speaker 1: was initially dismissive because I've never read a forestry book

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Speaker 1: in my life.

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Speaker 6: And you're in a big club.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like most Yeah, like most Americans, like an overwhelming

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Speaker 1: majority of Americas. I never read a forestry book. And

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Speaker 1: the minute I it's sat on my desk and sad,

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Speaker 1: my desk, and one day I opened it and realized

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Speaker 1: how it was structured. It's it's structured in like questions,

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Speaker 1: many of which are great questions, and it's like it

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Speaker 1: poses a question and answers the question.

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Speaker 6: Addresses the question.

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Speaker 3: Addresses the questions, and some of them are unanswerable.

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Speaker 6: I'm big on that.

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Speaker 1: The minute I opened it up and saw that there's

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Speaker 1: a thing why are conifers shaped like cones? I was like,

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Speaker 1: shod ever thought about that? Why are they shaped like cones?

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Speaker 6: Awesome?

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Speaker 1: No, that's when I wanted. That's why I told Krim

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Speaker 1: we should have this guy on to talk about all

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Speaker 1: the like, because this is great for people's barroom banter capabilities.

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Speaker 1: To imagine some single fella, maagine some single fella down

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Speaker 1: in the bar. Everyone go get Michael's book.

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Speaker 3: It sounds like my past.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, down the bar. It's a lovely young lady next

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Speaker 1: to you, and you're like, shit, man, I can't think

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Speaker 1: of a good icebreaker. You know, I can't be like

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Speaker 1: you sure are pretty, because that don't fly. He'd be like, hey, man,

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Speaker 1: do you ever wonder why uh you know pine trees

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Speaker 1: are cone shaped? That's good, dude, that's rock. So solid.

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Speaker 3: Put that one in your and your pick up.

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Speaker 4: That's real audience specific. I just came back from a

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Speaker 4: wedding in La and I don't think that would have

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Speaker 4: got you anywhere. And like, let me tell you why

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Speaker 4: your lips look like that.

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Speaker 1: No, so we're gonna we're gonna dig in. But tell

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Speaker 1: about your job, because you know the comedy Parks and

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Speaker 1: w Reck. You were actually at a place called Parks

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Speaker 1: and Reck.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, Forest Parks and w Reck.

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Speaker 1: Do you guys love that show?

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Speaker 7: Yeah?

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Speaker 6: And I got a lot of that over the years.

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Speaker 6: And I'm like, oh, okay, sure. But and so I

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Speaker 6: was the commissioner. So that's also fun because you get

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Speaker 6: to be the commission.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you were a high level individual.

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Speaker 6: Well yeah, in a you know, big fish in a

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Speaker 6: small pond kind of way. But you know, so I

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Speaker 6: am I am as of January first, I am no

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Speaker 6: longer the commissioner of the Vermont Department of Forest, Parks

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Speaker 6: and Recreation. But that's what you're referring to, and that's

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Speaker 6: what I was for twelve years.

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Speaker 1: This was sad about this.

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Speaker 6: It was my choice. There's stuff I missed, the good people,

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Speaker 6: the good stuff. The mission is amazing, credible, staff of

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Speaker 6: professional foresters, biologists, you know, recreation specialists, parks people. But

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Speaker 6: it's heavy to politics and bureaucracy and that that gets

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Speaker 6: old and uh and I did it for an inordinate

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Speaker 6: amount of time. Uh historically speaking that you know, I

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Speaker 6: served through two government It's an appointed position by the governor.

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Speaker 6: You lead a department that has the it is well

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Speaker 6: named with a statutory mission for forest force, health, forestry,

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Speaker 6: the state park system, which is really quite excellent in Vermont,

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Speaker 6: and then sort of broadly speaking, outdoor recreation. And we're

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Speaker 6: a sister department to the Department of Fish and Wildlife,

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Speaker 6: and so our our our forests are their habitat right,

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Speaker 6: and so we we managed public lands cooperatively together. It's

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Speaker 6: a really cool tradition of kind of inter departmental work

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Speaker 6: and uh so it it It was amazing. I worked

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Speaker 6: for fourteen years prior to that within the department as

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Speaker 6: a forester and as what we call a service forester.

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Speaker 6: Most states have in a Department of Forestry an arm

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Speaker 6: that includes people who give technical assistance to private landowners municipalities,

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Speaker 6: and that's what I did. That is like the best

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Speaker 6: job you can have. It's so cool. You're just out

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Speaker 6: with interesting people, walking interesting pieces of land and helping them.

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Speaker 6: You don't have to drum up business. You're not really

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Speaker 6: much of a regulator. You're just a facilitating conservation on

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Speaker 6: private lands, which is you know in the East, is

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Speaker 6: like it's the majority of the lands. And so that's

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Speaker 6: what I did, and that's where the book really came from,

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Speaker 6: was just being with people and their fascinations with the woods,

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Speaker 6: their ignorance with the woods, their love of the woods.

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Speaker 6: And then you know, collecting questions and realizing that I

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Speaker 6: answer a lot of questions and I'm kind of a

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Speaker 6: geek coming from a background in forest science in particular,

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Speaker 6: thing about I grew disillusioned with we produced, you know,

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Speaker 6: published peer reviewed papers that didn't really go anywhere except

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Speaker 6: other scientists citing them and their proposals and their their work.

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Speaker 6: And so I'd left wanting to get I took a

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Speaker 6: chance at being one of these county foresters with a

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Speaker 6: county as a geography of an area of jurisdiction, to

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Speaker 6: give that kind of technical assistance with a hope that

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Speaker 6: you know, maybe I can help bring the science to

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Speaker 6: the management and stewardship of private woodlands. And did that

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Speaker 6: for fourteen years, and then out of nowhere, an incoming governor.

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Speaker 6: The transition team contacted me and said, hey, we're hearing things.

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Speaker 6: We wonder if you'd like to be the governor's you know,

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Speaker 6: commissioner for the governor. Then Peter Shumlin, a Democrat who

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Speaker 6: who had been in this state Senate and was Senate

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Speaker 6: pro Tem, ran first statewide office, won that election and

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Speaker 6: was putting a team together, and they reached out to me.

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Speaker 6: I said, no, you kidding me. I mean maybe when

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Speaker 6: I'm old then you know, my knees go and I

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Speaker 6: can't roam the woods anymore, and maybe I'll be like,

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Speaker 6: whys and then I'll be commissioner. And they're like, we're

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Speaker 6: asking you now, and I went to I said no,

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Speaker 6: I don't really am not interested. And then some I

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Speaker 6: would call them elders and people in my life that

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Speaker 6: you know, we're trust and and have some wisdom.

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Speaker 5: Uh.

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Speaker 6: They were like, you got to do it, and so

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Speaker 6: I took a chance. I said okay, and I lasted

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Speaker 6: three terms with him. He decided to not run again,

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Speaker 6: and the new governor, governor elected Scott, came in. He

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Speaker 6: notified all the appointees, which is very typical. You know,

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Speaker 6: you know, please send in your resignation letters. If you

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Speaker 6: want to work in our administration, you're free to. But

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Speaker 6: you can apply just like everybody else, through the web portal,

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Speaker 6: which is what I did.

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Speaker 1: And uh kind of really okay, that was that a

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Speaker 1: different political party?

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Speaker 6: Yes? I should have mentioned that. Yeah, totally, he's a Republican.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's why the assumption was you're out.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, it's pretty pretty traditional. And uh so you know

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Speaker 6: I did, and uh, I'm pretty sure I was the

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Speaker 6: last kid picked. You know. Uh, they announced all these

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Speaker 6: new appointees and new secretaries of this and commissioners of that,

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Speaker 6: and it was stressful because I'm into it.

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Speaker 1: I'm like super So you went to the web portal,

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Speaker 1: I went filling out. Yeah, what it says like current

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Speaker 1: job would be like this job.

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Speaker 6: Well, it's a little surreal, and I feel like I.

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Speaker 1: Have very relevant work experiences since I have this job.

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Speaker 6: Exactly. Uh, I'd like to say to his everlasting credit

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Speaker 6: he uh, Now, they brought me in and and you know,

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Speaker 6: it was, uh, it was pretty intense. I had some

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Speaker 6: very tough questions and some concerns, uh, because I you know,

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Speaker 6: into it and had kind of a big mouth and

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Speaker 6: was pushing for some certain things. Actually, to be honest,

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Speaker 6: it was uh Karint and I talked about a little

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Speaker 6: bit like forest fragmentation, the breaking of forest into smaller

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Speaker 6: and smaller pieces to the point where they become non

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Speaker 6: functional as forest and habitat and connected lands, you know.

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Speaker 6: And so in our state wide land use plans and regulation,

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Speaker 6: there's no lens for forests. It's a lot of other

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Speaker 6: criteria they have to consider when when proposing some development,

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Speaker 6: Are you going to have an adverse impact on the

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Speaker 6: environment in these various ways. Forest wasn't in there. And

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Speaker 6: I was saying, you know, they're so important, they confer

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Speaker 6: so much power and strength to our state. We should

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Speaker 6: have that as one of the checkboxes. No undue adverse impact,

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Speaker 6: or you avoid it, you minimize it, or you mitigate that.

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Speaker 6: And they were really concerned because they thought that was

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Speaker 6: only the only solution would be regulation, which this governor

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Speaker 6: was very against taking property rights away from people. These

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Speaker 6: are things that matter to me too, And I was like, no, actually,

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Speaker 6: there's an economic way through this. Let's reinvest in the loggers,

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Speaker 6: the workforce, the mills that are dying and eroding, let's

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Speaker 6: rebuild the culture of forestry in our state as our

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Speaker 6: last best hope to keep forest forest and to keep

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Speaker 6: all of the many benefits that accrue to all of

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Speaker 6: us from these private lands flowing. And they were like,

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Speaker 6: oh okay, and he reappointed me, and I had another

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Speaker 6: three year term with Governor Scott, which I'm for which

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Speaker 6: I'm extremely grateful, And had to navigate all that, you know,

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Speaker 6: being kind of a tree freak, not kind of certifiable.

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Speaker 1: And a tree hug or tree freak hug some trees.

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Speaker 6: But sometimes when you you need to.

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Speaker 1: Slap, don't.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, you know, but you know, sometimes oddly when you're

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Speaker 6: you know, you're gonna you know, boor cut into one

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Speaker 6: to fell it, you get to wrap your arms around

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Speaker 6: a little bit sometimes. So it's a mixed bag, right, But.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so you know how to borer cut?

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Speaker 6: Oh absolutely.

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Speaker 1: I recently learned that, Yeah, you need you.

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Speaker 6: Need to control, you need control.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was not cut sure where I come from.

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Speaker 3: You're in control a huge piece of.

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Speaker 1: Pie out of one side. Then you're coming from the

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Speaker 1: air side.

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Speaker 6: Well, you come from a long tradition there, so yeah,

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Speaker 6: directional felling, bar cutting, the hinge control. It's really cool

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Speaker 6: when when you get it and it works, it's a

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Speaker 6: I've had so many loggers. I was like, you should

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Speaker 6: go to the Game of logging training and like, no, no,

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Speaker 6: you know, I had to do this, you know, pencil

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Speaker 6: Nick Forester, geek over theresiness. And then then then a

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Speaker 6: couple of them did it and they were like, wow,

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Speaker 6: you know what, I gotta admit, this is pretty cool.

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Speaker 6: So much more control, you know, chasing the tree down,

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Speaker 6: you're you're you're you're holding that wood together until it's

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Speaker 6: safe and ready and then flip it off.

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Speaker 1: And when we were when we were learning it, it

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Speaker 1: was explained to me we were cutting down a big walnut. Okay, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and these these these were like walnut specialists. These guys

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Speaker 1: I was with their wallet specialists, and they're saying, on

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Speaker 1: a veneer log I mean, these guys are cutting like

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Speaker 1: they're down in the dirt, man, They're like, cut it

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Speaker 1: down like in the roots. Yeah, and they're saying, no,

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Speaker 1: you're not gonna come in here. And that cut a

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Speaker 1: big you know, eight hundred dollars wedge exactly knee high

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Speaker 1: and then whatever. You know, they're like very precise about

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Speaker 1: they wanted zero waste way down low. I mean it

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Speaker 1: was that thing was ready for the stump grinder when

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Speaker 1: they cut that thing down, and they were showing me

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Speaker 1: that little that cut, which I was like, that can't work,

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Speaker 1: but that'll slick.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I went out with steel power equipment right and worked

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Speaker 4: on a forestry project example that they had going in

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Speaker 4: Oregon in conjunction with some tribal management, and they were

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Speaker 4: doing this really technical felling of they wanted to drop

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Speaker 4: these trees and they wanted them to overhang ever so

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Speaker 4: slightly into the river in order to provide overhead cover

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Speaker 4: for spawning rainbow trout nice. And so they're like, yeah,

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Speaker 4: you can drop them kind of in the water, but

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Speaker 4: not all the way right, And it was like it

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Speaker 4: was a it was a big deal. And these two

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Speaker 4: fellers that they had come out that work with steel

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Speaker 4: all the time. The most painful part of the process

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Speaker 4: for them was doing it slow enough so everybody else,

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Speaker 4: all the state foresters and everybody could learn from it.

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Speaker 4: And it was just so day to day for these folks.

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Speaker 4: But they're like, yeah, we're gonna put like these six

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Speaker 4: limbs over the river. The rest of that tree is

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Speaker 4: going to lay right here. And by right here, we

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Speaker 4: mean and they walk out and they put a little

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Speaker 4: flag right there and they walk back and it's like okay,

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Speaker 4: and then this happens and you could just tell they're like,

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Speaker 4: let us get on with this, jeez. But it was amazing,

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Speaker 4: Like every tree was just like that, and these are huge.

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Speaker 6: And it's a thing. It is impressive because it's not

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Speaker 6: sort of by chance or they get lucky when someone

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Speaker 6: like they have control, and it's impressive, especially with leaning trees,

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Speaker 6: trees with defects, decay inside. They're not structurally sound. They're

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Speaker 6: really unpredictable, and yet people that really know what they're

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Speaker 6: doing approach it with a plan that is real and

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Speaker 6: it works.

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Speaker 4: And I was staying with like the you know, kids

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Speaker 4: with soft hands on the other side of the river,

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Speaker 4: and when that tree hit the ground, it was like

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Speaker 4: it went through you, you know, and you're like, wow,

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Speaker 4: that is a substantial chunk.

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Speaker 6: Of what Yeah, no doubt, dude. I was.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to say where I was. I was

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Speaker 1: at an event recently where I shook dozens of these

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Speaker 1: softest hands I've ever touched, like more like real nice,

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Speaker 1: to the point where I started to like anticipate it

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Speaker 1: if it made it. It's like it's kind of like

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Speaker 1: the noise when you shook the hands. Oh so weird.

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Speaker 1: How are you doing back there, Phil?

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Speaker 2: You good, I'm doing great. I uh I take offense

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Speaker 2: to these soft hands. Please continue.

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Speaker 6: Uh.

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Speaker 1: We got to touch on a couple of things, but

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Speaker 1: I want to get when we come back. I want

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Speaker 1: to I got two things I want. I want to

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Speaker 1: ask you about your disappointment about no one getting the

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Speaker 1: Vermont honey thing or not not honey. I got my

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Speaker 1: honey and syrup from Vermont. I'll point out right on. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but I got a friend that does both. But the

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Speaker 1: sugar business maple syrup business, and two sugaring we call

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Speaker 1: it sugaring. And two I want to tell you about

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Speaker 1: one time I put a chainsaw into an oak tree

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Speaker 1: and the gallons and gallons and gallons of water. It

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Speaker 1: was like slicing into an old tractor tire. How much

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Speaker 1: water come out of that tree? Uh, we'll get that

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Speaker 1: in the first cow lay out the corner layout the current.

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Speaker 4: I think I think you got to explain your tractor tire.

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Speaker 1: Oh, in the old days, maybe they still do cethel No,

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Speaker 1: they still do Oh.

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Speaker 4: Well, I thought they use that sodium whatever.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, it's just whatever. It doesn't freeze filled with water

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Speaker 8: or just freeze in the winter.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. We're doing a project one time where we had

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Speaker 1: to cut Me and my brother had to cut one

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Speaker 1: hundred of these little jackpines out and limb them and

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Speaker 1: cut them to length and put them on stickers out

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Speaker 1: in the feet and we were cutting to get in

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Speaker 1: there and left some little pungee sticks and put one

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Speaker 1: through a tractor tire. And I didn't know. I was young.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know, and I didn't know that. I think

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Speaker 1: it was full of Brian not air.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, I think they used to do a lot more

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Speaker 8: with before a tractors were four wheel drive.

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Speaker 1: This was a two wheel drive forward. It was a

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Speaker 1: forward detractor.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, what was it like an AD smaller?

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Speaker 1: I remember man had tires bass tall as me.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Anyway, the.

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Speaker 8: Guys, the guys that I knew, had two wheel drive tractors,

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Speaker 8: they put them in the rear tires.

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Speaker 1: It added weight to the tractor. That's exactly what this

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Speaker 1: situation was.

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Speaker 3: More give you more attraction, and I think it also.

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Speaker 8: Factories over it. Yeah, it lowers your center of gravity.

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Speaker 8: Ballaced keeps you from tipping over.

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Speaker 3: So you know, like that come.

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Speaker 1: Out of this oak tree.

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Speaker 6: And it wasn't flying squirrels, because that's another thing.

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Speaker 1: Well, listen, man, the house I grew up in had

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Speaker 1: a flying squirrel infestation, but I never had flying squirrels

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Speaker 1: come out of a tree, had them come out of

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Speaker 1: my house bad especially one time we came up and

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Speaker 1: got on an extension ladder and started dropping mothballs down

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Speaker 1: into a hole in the ceedar siding. Twenty four Flying squirrels.

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Speaker 8: I one time was sitting in a tree stand in

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Speaker 8: New Jersey and I'm sitting there dark, waiting for the

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Speaker 8: sun to come up, and it just gets like that

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Speaker 8: gray light, and all of a sudden, like called the

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Speaker 8: cold gray light, something like whizz passed my head and

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Speaker 8: smacks the tree and runs up and it's like one

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Speaker 8: of those deals.

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Speaker 3: You're like, holy shit, like what was that?

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Speaker 8: And then like a couple of seconds later another one

380
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Speaker 8: what And I'm like what the hell is going on here?

381
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Speaker 8: It was flying squirrels like soaring into the tree that

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Speaker 8: I was sitting on, and it was they were like

383
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Speaker 8: landing on the tree and then running up the tree. Yeah,

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Speaker 8: there was I don't know, probably a dozen that did that,

385
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Speaker 8: and he like hit the tree that I was sitting

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Speaker 8: on and ran up to the dop.

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Speaker 1: They don't get enough credit for how cool they are, right, Yeah.

388
00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:08,159
Speaker 1: You when I was a kid, you could turn We

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Speaker 1: had a bird feeder outside the kitchen window, like on

390
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Speaker 1: the sill of the kitchen window, and sometimes you turn

391
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Speaker 1: the light on at night in the kitchen and it'll

392
00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:19,640
Speaker 1: illuminate that thing, and like the last thing you're expecting

393
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Speaker 1: is a bunch of little squirrels sitting there eating fucking squirrels.

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Speaker 4: That's an interesting waterfowl kind of comparison that you had there.

395
00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,280
Speaker 4: Like you can start a new little uh hunting club

396
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Speaker 4: right where you like identify the masked tree that those

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Speaker 4: flying squirrels are going to in the morning. Oh and

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Speaker 4: you go on set up.

399
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Speaker 3: Yeah, wait all.

400
00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:44,280
Speaker 1: Right, corner cross it. We've covered it to the dickens. Yeah,

401
00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:49,320
Speaker 1: it might not. It's just a long story. It's like like,

402
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,320
Speaker 1: let's say you're the news. You don't apologize every time

403
00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:56,040
Speaker 1: you cover the president. You'll be like, oh my god,

404
00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:57,880
Speaker 1: here we are talking about the president again.

405
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Speaker 5: And that's a big deal.

406
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Speaker 1: It just it never ends. It just can is run.

407
00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:02,560
Speaker 1: So the corner crossing deal and I don't even know,

408
00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:05,560
Speaker 1: Like what if you're the news and you report on

409
00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,240
Speaker 1: the president every day, you don't need to give back.

410
00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:11,359
Speaker 1: You don't need to go like So, there's this country,

411
00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:16,000
Speaker 1: the US, and they have executively, they have they have

412
00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:26,320
Speaker 1: a triumph triumvirate what's the word executive judicially Like this

413
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,400
Speaker 1: is the United States of America. They have a judicial system,

414
00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:33,320
Speaker 1: they have a congressional system and an executive leadership system

415
00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:37,760
Speaker 1: and it's a triumvirate check system of checks and balances

416
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:41,159
Speaker 1: and so that fella yesterday, right, you don't need to

417
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:45,119
Speaker 1: do all that. So the wyoming corner crossing case. If

418
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,480
Speaker 1: you're not familiar, I don't know what to tell you.

419
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,240
Speaker 1: Just go back and listen to go back and listen.

420
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,280
Speaker 1: Go back and listen to All Up in your Airspace.

421
00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:59,400
Speaker 1: That was an episode. Go back and listen to Busted

422
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,439
Speaker 1: for Touching It. Yes, listen to that.

423
00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:05,399
Speaker 3: Or read all the articles on the website, or.

424
00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:07,399
Speaker 1: Read all the articles at the media dot com. And

425
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Speaker 1: and Cal's gonna take it away.

426
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Speaker 4: Thank you, Steve. You Cal, I want to uh, we're

427
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:17,679
Speaker 4: gonna go off of this assumption that everybody knows what

428
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:19,439
Speaker 4: we're talking about for the most part. And then I

429
00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:21,119
Speaker 4: just want to hit on a couple of parts that

430
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,920
Speaker 4: I think people need to focus on and pay attention

431
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:29,200
Speaker 4: to because this is what is going to be brought

432
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,640
Speaker 4: up again and be central to the case going forward.

433
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,680
Speaker 1: Yes, you know we're having a forest round right now.

434
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:36,160
Speaker 4: Yes.

435
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:40,439
Speaker 1: Can you imagine the tension that Doug durn is feeling

436
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:46,040
Speaker 1: right now. He's holding his phone. He doesn't know what

437
00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,560
Speaker 1: he's gonna write in about, but as soon as that's

438
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:52,560
Speaker 1: some bit what he's going to complain about to me yet,

439
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 1: but he's ready or what he's going to fact check.

440
00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:55,840
Speaker 1: He's ready.

441
00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:57,080
Speaker 6: That's not what we call that.

442
00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:03,000
Speaker 1: He probably got off his tractor and he's ready for

443
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:07,200
Speaker 1: something to be like, well quite hard put it. But anyways,

444
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:08,879
Speaker 1: go on col A.

445
00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,679
Speaker 4: Lot of woodlot managers out there.

446
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,119
Speaker 1: You said private would private forest? I think he like

447
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,080
Speaker 1: just whatever he is doing, he's not doing, and I

448
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:19,959
Speaker 1: have he's poised and ready.

449
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:22,480
Speaker 4: Long time ago, chased a lady out to Vermont and

450
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,600
Speaker 4: did like a eight month stint in Vermont. And there's

451
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:30,280
Speaker 4: a lot of foresters doing non forestry jobs in Vermont.

452
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 4: They came out of forestry school and just couldn't couldn't

453
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:35,240
Speaker 4: find a forestry paycheck.

454
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 5: You know.

455
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:37,640
Speaker 4: So there are a lot of experts out there.

456
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:39,200
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, lots of experts.

457
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:41,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, so, and there's a lot.

458
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:44,160
Speaker 1: I'm good friends with one of them.

459
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 4: There are a lot of experts on this case. And

460
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:51,679
Speaker 4: it's really interesting, right because it has to do, of course,

461
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:58,960
Speaker 4: with public and private interface here. So in this case

462
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:02,399
Speaker 4: corner crossing, which of course is stepping from one piece

463
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,840
Speaker 4: of public land to an adjoining corner of public land

464
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 4: at the intersection of four parcels.

465
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 1: I like the old checkerboard analogy.

466
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:12,120
Speaker 4: It is a checkerboard.

467
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:18,840
Speaker 1: Yes, so your public is black, say, private is red? Sure,

468
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 1: and you're yeah, stepping from red to red, stepping from.

469
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:34,399
Speaker 4: On the diagonal black to black. Sure. Yeah. So four

470
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:38,679
Speaker 4: hunters from Missouri use this method to access pieces of

471
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 4: blm land that are and of course the other adjoining

472
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:48,119
Speaker 4: corners are private land. In this case that we're speaking of,

473
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 4: this fellow Fred Eshlman's private oasis in Wyoming called the

474
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 4: Elk Mountain Ranch, and Eshelman decide to soothe these folk

475
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:06,639
Speaker 4: for criminal trespass. And I believe this is the the

476
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:07,439
Speaker 4: civil case.

477
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:11,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, they got acquitted for the on the criminal criminal.

478
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,040
Speaker 4: This is the civil case that the idea was. It

479
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 4: was going to be tried in a civil court in Wyoming,

480
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:24,200
Speaker 4: but it was picked up by the Supreme Court.

481
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 1: The juice got off on criminal and they stuck it

482
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 1: to him in civil.

483
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 4: Was that on TV too?

484
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 1: And these guys criminal the criminal courts like, nah, you

485
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:41,440
Speaker 1: need to break a law.

486
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,959
Speaker 4: Because and this will give you like the reason as

487
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 4: to why. Right Judge Scovdall, who is the the federal

488
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,679
Speaker 4: justice here writes in his opinion, the court finds that

489
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 4: there that where a person corn crosses on foot within

490
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 4: the checkerboard from public land to public land, without touching

491
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 4: the surface of private land and without damaging private property,

492
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:18,920
Speaker 4: there is no liability for trespass. Very convenient that this

493
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 4: line is in the opinion, because this is kind of

494
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:28,400
Speaker 4: where it stands in court. Is, Oh, really you want

495
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:32,359
Speaker 4: to sue? Where are the damages? How do we prove

496
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,160
Speaker 4: that there are damages to private land?

497
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 3: Now?

498
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 1: Didn't didn't Just a little bit earlier in another wrinkle

499
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 1: in this the landowner had said. The landowner comes and says, uh,

500
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 1: because my because I used to have exclusive access to

501
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 1: this public land and I now, don't I feel that

502
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,400
Speaker 1: I've lost seven and a half million dollars in land

503
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 1: value of land because I understood my ranch to sort

504
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 1: of have to come with exclusive BLM access, and now

505
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:14,479
Speaker 1: that it's not my ranch feels to me seven hundred

506
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 1: or seven and a half million dollars less valuable and

507
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,920
Speaker 1: didn't like in some prior thing the judge bring up,

508
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 1: I'm not buying that that that's these guys problem, or

509
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 1: that that's that that that I think you're mixing up

510
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 1: like that that how are how did these guys cost

511
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 1: you seven and a half million dollars when we.

512
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,439
Speaker 4: There's a a good chance there is a probable chance

513
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 4: that we can't determine those damages because it's not illegal.

514
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, it's because it hinges on it being illegal.

515
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 4: Yes, And it's like you bought a ranch that has

516
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 4: this type of land configuration, this checkerboard land configuration on

517
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 4: part of it. That's that's your private dealing and you

518
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 4: should should have been aware of the risks.

519
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:06,920
Speaker 1: Yeah. I always felt that his gripe was should to

520
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,399
Speaker 1: be with the realtors and the lawyers that did the

521
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 1: deal when he bought the ranch, because he bought the

522
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:17,359
Speaker 1: ranch under the under the someone gave him the impression

523
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,400
Speaker 1: that he had exclusive access to this and it and

524
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,399
Speaker 1: that idea hadn't been tested in the courts, and he

525
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:28,439
Speaker 1: should have and someone maybe falsely advertised this.

526
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,920
Speaker 4: But you understand you you've listened to my strip club analogy, right,

527
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 4: no please? So I bought a.

528
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 1: Heart rate meter. Just heart meter, spike, We're.

529
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 4: Gonna have some good background music. Yeah. So I bought

530
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 4: a condo and here in in Bozeman, Okay, it's in

531
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 4: a commercial area of town. It butts up to commercial property.

532
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 4: It is at least a partially commercial property in itself

533
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 4: right put in the strip club and the property behind

534
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:08,719
Speaker 4: that directly a butt's up to My property was for

535
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 4: sale at the time. It's it's been rented in long

536
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 4: term leases for five years now. It just was up

537
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 4: for sale again and sold again. And speaking about the

538
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,720
Speaker 4: future of this property, right because you're investing in the property,

539
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 4: I was like, so, the big risk here is this,

540
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 4: because of the nature, this changing face of this commercial

541
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 4: property that is directly out my back window. If they

542
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 4: were to put in some sort of like, oh, I

543
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 4: don't know, like Bozeman thing these days of like a

544
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 4: wine bar and tasting room or yes with yeah, and

545
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 4: who knows, Like, my property value could very well go up. However,

546
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 4: if it were to turn into like an ultimately like

547
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 4: super sedy like liquor store slash strip club situation, my

548
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 4: property values would very much likely go down. And this

549
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 4: is me a non uh mogul of any sorts by

550
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 4: anyone's standards, right, So I find it absolutely ridiculous that

551
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 4: this particular fellow, with his long list of financial accomplishments

552
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 4: could turn around and be like, yeah, well the real

553
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 4: estate agent censol, I mean, was the victim here, you

554
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 4: know what I mean. It's like that is part of

555
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 4: what you do in your due diligence as an adult

556
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 4: purchasing anything caveat emptor yes, sir, buyer beware.

557
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 1: So hmmm, so you're pointing to the no liability Yeah.

558
00:30:56,120 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 4: No, no, yeah, somebody forced him to purchase this before

559
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 4: he was of legal age and he didn't quite understand

560
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 4: the Yeah, you'd have to tell me quite quite the

561
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 4: story of there. So anyway, and there's been these previous instances,

562
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:19,479
Speaker 4: the blue sky scenario here for this whole situation is

563
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:24,720
Speaker 4: this guy Eshelman would have been like, all right, don't

564
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 4: just don't tell anybody that you guys are doing this.

565
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 4: I don't want to see a bunch of cars parked here.

566
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 4: It's a pain in the butt. There's going to be trash.

567
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 4: There's reasons that we don't want people corner crossing in

568
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 4: here because they're gonna spread weeds around, there's always a

569
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 4: risk of fire. We just want good neighbors, right, you

570
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 4: guys be good neighbors, will be good neighbors.

571
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 1: Nobody ever that that might have been the strategic approach. Now,

572
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 1: in hindsight, that might have been the strategic, the strategically

573
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 1: sound approach.

574
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 4: Yes, Now however, holy moly, yeah.

575
00:31:57,720 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 1: You have to wait in line to jump that corner.

576
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely absolutely. It's an easy to get tagged because

577
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 4: it's all private land with very little access. So you know,

578
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 4: now that corner crossing is highly publicized. I guarantee there's

579
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 4: going to be more traffic.

580
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you're just playing, If if the landowners just

581
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 1: playing for himself and isn't interested in policy, which is

582
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 1: probably true, you're right. He should have said, boys, you

583
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 1: got me. But here's the deal.

584
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna build a quantt hut over here,

585
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 4: and you guys can park in it, and then you

586
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 4: come back out to the county road and you corner

587
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 4: cross You let me know when you're gonna be out there.

588
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 1: I'll let you know when I'm gonna be out there.

589
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 1: And this is just gonna be our little thing.

590
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 6: Exactly exactly.

591
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 4: That's the long game.

592
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 1: So that's good. That's some good insight. Cal I should

593
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 1: have brought that up a long time ago.

594
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 4: On facebook interesting points of this, and I'm very much

595
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 4: burying the lead here. So obviously we got a great

596
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 4: opinion from this judge, and that opinion stands, and these

597
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 4: guys aren't going to get dinged with anything in this

598
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 4: particular civil suit, which is great. However, it does not

599
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 4: mean that, Okay, now corner crossing's totally legal. There still

600
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 4: exists some gray area. But this opinion says based off

601
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 4: of several cases, and I found it very interesting that

602
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 4: he also looked at cases within the state of Wyoming

603
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 4: and he didn't cite the Unlawful Enclosures Act, which is

604
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 4: a federal act, and I thought, this is exactly what

605
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 4: this is going to be totally based off of. But

606
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 4: this judge, which says that you cannot create an obstruction

607
00:33:54,840 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 4: that limits the public's ability to access public land. So

608
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:09,320
Speaker 4: at this corner, this common corner, an agent of Eshelman

609
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 4: put to t posts and I think a little length

610
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,799
Speaker 4: to chain right at the corner that was supposed to

611
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:19,919
Speaker 4: be enough of an obstacle to where these gentlemen would

612
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 4: have had to come into contact with private property in

613
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 4: order to get over private property. So they went through

614
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:33,760
Speaker 4: the I would say, a very ceremonial effort of creating

615
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,840
Speaker 4: a ladder to go over to tea posts that don't

616
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 4: connect to anything, right, Like a lot of folks could

617
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 4: have jumped it. But they did this in order to

618
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:48,400
Speaker 4: signal to the land agents that hey, we're here to

619
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 4: do this and we're going to do this ridiculous thing

620
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 4: to show you that our intent is such and it's

621
00:34:55,640 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 4: not to mess with your private property in any way.

622
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 4: People are really getting hung up on this ladder thing,

623
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 4: like that's what you have to do.

624
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh yeah, he's a defense maker professional.

625
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:20,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, so he's like, it wasn't hard, but people are

626
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:25,240
Speaker 4: really getting hung up on this ladder. And a ladder,

627
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 4: like I said, it's a symbol. It's not necessary to

628
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 4: corner cross.

629
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 1: Was he talking about let us have the ladder. Do

630
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 1: we follow up with him on that?

631
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:35,239
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I'm in touch, but I think that we

632
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:37,280
Speaker 5: should sell some ladders on the website.

633
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:39,879
Speaker 1: Well no, but can't he I want that ladder. Yeah,

634
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:42,880
Speaker 1: I mean we have the we got weights and fish.

635
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, I know.

636
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:45,720
Speaker 5: We're adding to our you know, we're going to amass

637
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 5: so many things. Facts are going to be incredibly valuable

638
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:51,839
Speaker 5: at a Sotheby's auction for our own auction.

639
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 4: So another case known as the McKay the you went

640
00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:02,440
Speaker 4: to development company case back in nineteen fourteen, is ruling

641
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 4: that Justice fourteen, nineteen fourteen. What was going on back then, Well,

642
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,239
Speaker 4: it is. It's just an extension of what was going

643
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:19,759
Speaker 4: on when this checkerboard system of land was laid out.

644
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 1: It was probably not a hunting thing. It was probably

645
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 1: whatever else.

646
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:28,360
Speaker 4: Crazing. This is grazing, right, but just as it is now.

647
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:32,799
Speaker 4: It's you know, the landscape changes with new ownership coming in.

648
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,560
Speaker 4: People put up signs or three strand barber fence where

649
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:38,279
Speaker 4: it used to be open range. And I think that's

650
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 4: what the case was here. So a guy was just

651
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 4: moving his sheep to his historic grazing area on public land.

652
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:48,319
Speaker 4: The new landowner came in and took issue with that,

653
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 4: and somehow, some way I should really read up on this.

654
00:36:54,480 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 4: McKay took his right to access his public grazing allotment

655
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,360
Speaker 4: to the court and won. So that's another case. And

656
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 4: then there's a nineteen seventy four case from the Tenth

657
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 4: Circuit Court that was cited as well. And again these

658
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 4: come down to damages right to access the public's right

659
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 4: to access public ground. And a new case that just

660
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,719
Speaker 4: passed here, not case, but a new law in Wyoming

661
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:39,480
Speaker 4: that clarified some trustpass language without it was kind of

662
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 4: an interesting thing because it didn't directly name corner crossing,

663
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 4: but it absolutely pertains to corner crossing and proof in

664
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 4: the pudding here is justice Goobdall used it. Where the

665
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 4: Wyoming legislature passed law actually passed this year traveling through

666
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 4: private property to access public land. This clarified what traveling

667
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:07,759
Speaker 4: through required physically touching or driving on the surface of

668
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 4: private property, which would not apply to the hunters in

669
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:16,839
Speaker 4: this case. And so all these little building blocks kind

670
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 4: of build up right now because of the This is

671
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:30,279
Speaker 4: a relatively narrow opinion. According to a mutual friend of

672
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 4: ours who used to be with the BLM is now

673
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:36,359
Speaker 4: at the National Wildlife Federation. But because it does lay

674
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:41,759
Speaker 4: out like trespassing or walking from corner to corner in

675
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:47,920
Speaker 4: the checkerboard fashion versus a corner that's not in the

676
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 4: checkerboard fashion, which is kind of confusing to me. But anyway,

677
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:57,799
Speaker 4: that's where we're at right now. It's I think a

678
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:02,399
Speaker 4: very positive thing. And everyone's pretty much in agreement that

679
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 4: this landowner is going to appeal the case and try

680
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 4: to take it to a higher court. So it's not

681
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 4: over yet. If it's this is a you know, these

682
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:23,919
Speaker 4: are like federal actions. These are cases that would very

683
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 4: well be cited by somebody else who is in this

684
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:31,919
Speaker 4: legal position, even if it is not in the state

685
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:37,239
Speaker 4: of Wyoming, which makes it a national thing. So tons

686
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 4: of checkerboard here in Montana, Arizona, Utah, Wyoming.

687
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 1: So I got a handful of thoughts that I'm going

688
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:51,160
Speaker 1: to given no particular order about on this issue. There

689
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:59,839
Speaker 1: was a little detail merged recently where the the misso

690
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,239
Speaker 1: corner crossers who've been who were in our I was

691
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:05,360
Speaker 1: gonna say, who've been here? They've been in our old studio.

692
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 1: So we had we had a couple of the Missouri

693
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 1: Corner Crossers on the podcast, they had their on X

694
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:19,319
Speaker 1: account subpoenaed, okay, which is is very common. So like

695
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 1: game wardens people, you know, they can they can subpoena

696
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,839
Speaker 1: that kind of information. And there emerged is it being

697
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:29,600
Speaker 1: called waypoint number six? Yes, yeah, So when they had

698
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:35,279
Speaker 1: their on X account subpoenaed, here's this waypoint that was

699
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 1: made very definitely, well not made. A pin was dropped

700
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 1: very definitely on private property.

701
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:45,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, And these pins when you drop them are are

702
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,359
Speaker 4: dated and everything, so you.

703
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 6: Could drop it from your house.

704
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:56,319
Speaker 1: Well that's that's the rub is they can't you know,

705
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:01,960
Speaker 1: you can't say for certain that the pin was created.

706
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 1: There was also a lot of like apparently a lot

707
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 1: of deleting of waypoints. But there was a pin that

708
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 1: was made very much on private property, and that's been

709
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:13,799
Speaker 1: brought up and brought up and brought up, but it

710
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:16,760
Speaker 1: can't definitively be said. Was that pin made by someone

711
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 1: who who hit mark my location? Or was that pin

712
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:26,919
Speaker 1: moved or just dropped for whatever reason, dropped a pin

713
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 1: overround the guy's place? Hard to say. So that was

714
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 1: like an interesting little wrinkle that I was watching and

715
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 1: I think it might be it's like, you know, like

716
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 1: the Grassy Knoll. I think it's like waypoint six.

717
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 4: It was like, we don't I guess I don't know

718
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 4: if we need to go in it. But like I'm

719
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:49,719
Speaker 4: cleaning up waypoints and trying to use folders mainly, so

720
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 4: when I'm like showing off stuff on my computer, I'm

721
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:53,920
Speaker 4: not showing people all the other places I go.

722
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 1: Where if I look at this computer's like awesome spot,

723
00:41:57,280 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 1: awesome spot.

724
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:01,440
Speaker 4: Right exactly like you're sitting down Spencer Newhart and he's like, yeah,

725
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 4: but what about this Turkey waypoint? And we're not talking

726
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 4: about that, And I'm like, I can't hide half my

727
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:13,800
Speaker 4: computer anyway. So you know, there's a lot of general

728
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:17,080
Speaker 4: waypoints out there, and I'm like looking, I'm like, oh,

729
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:20,279
Speaker 4: it's totally landlocked, like totally landlocked. There's no way to

730
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 4: get in there. Or now I've been there and that's

731
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 4: not actually a county road, it's a private road. Or

732
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:29,239
Speaker 4: there's all these things where it's like I don't know,

733
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:32,399
Speaker 4: we're gonna head this way. Here's the waypoint, Steve, you'll

734
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 4: figure it out type of thing right where you're and

735
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:36,799
Speaker 4: then there's other ways to do it too where you're

736
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 4: like zoomed out far enough to where you're like fat fingering, or.

737
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,839
Speaker 1: You could say like, hey, I saw a strutter right

738
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 1: here if you get on like but you can get

739
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:51,920
Speaker 1: on public and just try to get as close to

740
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 1: where I saw this strutter from my car, so then

741
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 1: you might have a way.

742
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:57,160
Speaker 4: I don't know there was a ton of that this

743
00:42:57,239 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 4: spring just from me.

744
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:00,279
Speaker 8: Yeah, I'm just saying it's like a I have a

745
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 8: bunch of white points like that where they're on private,

746
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:05,879
Speaker 8: but it's like I see a turkey here on private, sure,

747
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 8: but I'm on public.

748
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:09,440
Speaker 1: Well, if your stuff, if your account ever gets subpoened,

749
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:11,839
Speaker 1: someone might say, what were you doing all over this

750
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 1: guy's place?

751
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 3: Well, they can clarify this.

752
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:22,760
Speaker 1: You can refer interesting wrinkle number one number two. People

753
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:28,439
Speaker 1: keep sitting back waiting for precedent setting or waiting for

754
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 1: it to be to DA here's clarification. But the fact

755
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:41,840
Speaker 1: that that that like the rules aren't being rewritten yet, right,

756
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:44,320
Speaker 1: it's just a matter of It's just a matter of

757
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:48,719
Speaker 1: even if the law isn't clarified, if it's not publicly clarified,

758
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:53,720
Speaker 1: you know, in in the statutes, it is. It increasingly

759
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 1: is what prosecutor is going to want to take this on,

760
00:43:58,120 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 1: and it might be.

761
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 4: Better have nothing going on in your county aside from this.

762
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 1: It might be that when you go look at the statutes,

763
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 1: it might still be confusing, but you would then look

764
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 1: at the prosecution history and say the legal language is confusing.

765
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 1: Yet no one and they've sure tried, No one has

766
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:25,279
Speaker 1: been successfully prosecuted. So it's like looking for this to

767
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 1: all of a sudden where looking for the issue to

768
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:33,239
Speaker 1: get legally clarified might not happen to anybody's satisfaction, and

769
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:36,920
Speaker 1: it might just be inference. When someone says, can I

770
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 1: because I don't understand when I read the law, I

771
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:43,359
Speaker 1: can't tell if it's okay not okay? Or why does

772
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:45,759
Speaker 1: the state recommend against it? What the hell does that mean?

773
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 1: And they need point. One might point and say, well,

774
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 1: here's the history of people trying to prosecute this, up

775
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:55,799
Speaker 1: to you if you really feel like going through all that,

776
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:59,479
Speaker 1: But generally you're like, so far to date, no one's

777
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:01,319
Speaker 1: been no one's been hung for it.

778
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 4: I like to point out also that right now it's

779
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 4: very much a motivated foot access only situation, and I

780
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:18,920
Speaker 4: think the longer this goes on, the door gets whiter

781
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 4: and whiter to like, well, I have a high step

782
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:27,319
Speaker 4: in quarter horse, I'll guarantee I can put all four

783
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 4: feet from public to public on my quarter horse as

784
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 4: we walk across this pan oh right, or you know

785
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 4: the means of transportation, because if you go through the

786
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:40,879
Speaker 4: threads and all the talking online about this, it's like, well,

787
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 4: let's just make an easement on everyone, right, Well, was

788
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 4: it a five foot wide easement? Is it forty inch

789
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 4: easement enough for you know, a small trail side by side?

790
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 4: Like what you know, where do we go from here?

791
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 4: And you know, again, if I was a big land

792
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:03,360
Speaker 4: owner with the public interest in mind, and also you

793
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:06,720
Speaker 4: know all those things that I mentioned of, like wanting

794
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:09,960
Speaker 4: to protect like good grass stock, or be free from

795
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:13,960
Speaker 4: worrying about fire danger all those things, I'd just be like,

796
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:18,840
Speaker 4: let's just let's just not let's just just keep it

797
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:21,359
Speaker 4: how it is. The folks that want to figure it out,

798
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 4: they can figure it out, and that's just gonna be

799
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:26,320
Speaker 4: the best thing for everybody.

800
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:32,319
Speaker 1: Uh Uh. Number three of my five wrinkles or things

801
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:35,759
Speaker 1: that I've occur to me as I think about this,

802
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:43,439
Speaker 1: accuracy fences aren't on surveyed lines for the most part.

803
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:45,400
Speaker 1: A lot of times fences are a guess, it's a

804
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:48,279
Speaker 1: matter of convenience. This is where we always understood it

805
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:52,239
Speaker 1: to be. You cannot go out. Let's say, all of

806
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:55,720
Speaker 1: a sudden, the law was clarified, very definitely. Corner crossing

807
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:58,840
Speaker 1: is legal law as you don't step foot on private land. Dude.

808
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:03,400
Speaker 1: This corner we're talking about Wyoming was a surveyed corner

809
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 1: that had a marker on it. You cannot go out

810
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:15,239
Speaker 1: and use mapping apps fence placement and be that you're

811
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 1: right on the money. I picture a future in which

812
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:26,359
Speaker 1: access proponents are spending money surveying corners, and even that

813
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 1: is gonna get touchy because those corners are not gonna

814
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 1: be where these fences that have been there for one

815
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 1: hundred years stand. They're just not They're just not.

816
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 8: I wanted one time was curious about a corner in

817
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:44,759
Speaker 8: eastern Montana and went to that corner because.

818
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:49,359
Speaker 4: Was it like, we're so close to the road.

819
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:53,640
Speaker 3: Is man, it's close to a road.

820
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:56,759
Speaker 8: You can either go around and it takes a lot

821
00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:58,319
Speaker 8: of miles and a lot of time to get into

822
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 8: this area, or it's like you can hop a corner

823
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:04,240
Speaker 8: close to a road, and I was just like curious

824
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:06,279
Speaker 8: about it. So I went to that corner and I

825
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 8: found a corner pin looked at my on X and

826
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 8: the corner pin was not like on X in the

827
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:14,920
Speaker 8: corner pin were off slightly.

828
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I mean, yeah, they don't advertise as being

829
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:21,000
Speaker 1: like it's like that. You don't like settle. You don't

830
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 1: pull up an app on your phone and settle like

831
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 1: legal disputes about property lines. I know, cause like mine,

832
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:29,279
Speaker 1: if that's the case, my driveway is a little bit

833
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:32,759
Speaker 1: out in the road. But I don't think it is. Yeah, right, Well,

834
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 1: when you're hunting on a grand scale, you're not like,

835
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 1: you know, they're not saying like, oh yeah, accurate to

836
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:41,200
Speaker 1: point to a quarter inch. Yeah, it's just not what

837
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:44,680
Speaker 1: it's it's not it's not its intention for people to

838
00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 1: think that you're just gonna run around willy nilly jumping fences.

839
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:51,920
Speaker 1: If this really becomes like a contentious thing and you're

840
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:54,359
Speaker 1: just gonna really nearly run around jumping fences thinking you're

841
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:59,040
Speaker 1: never to step and foot, it's like I wouldn't trust anything. Yeah,

842
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 1: but a corner and that in this case, that had

843
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:06,880
Speaker 1: a corner mark number four. I like to point out

844
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:09,760
Speaker 1: these boys, these Missouri guys, this is like a detail

845
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 1: that matters a lot to me. Asked and asked about, uh,

846
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:21,399
Speaker 1: can we do this? Can we do this? And we're

847
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:25,879
Speaker 1: told most and came out and said they're not doing

848
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 1: anything wrong. Another officer came out from a different enforcement

849
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:35,839
Speaker 1: agency said they're not doing anything wrong. So they were

850
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 1: doing like they did more due diligence on the issue

851
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:42,160
Speaker 1: than I've probably ever done on any access issue in

852
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 1: my entire life and got completely mixed messaging. So in

853
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 1: some ways, when they were talking about these guys being

854
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:56,839
Speaker 1: owing someone damages, I couldn't escape the feeling that there's

855
00:49:56,880 --> 00:50:01,040
Speaker 1: a system that that that that failed them and being

856
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:02,839
Speaker 1: able to get a straight answer when you're really trying

857
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:04,400
Speaker 1: to go out and be like, well what about blank,

858
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:07,919
Speaker 1: everybody's like, oh, yeah, you can do that. I'm calling

859
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:10,920
Speaker 1: the cops. Cop comes out they can do that. Well,

860
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:14,439
Speaker 1: I'm gonna call a different cop that comes out and says, eh,

861
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 1: let's try to arrest them. It's like, you can't do

862
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:21,440
Speaker 1: that to people. What was my last one? Oh, they

863
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:27,840
Speaker 1: weren't activists. They definitely your point about in hindsight to

864
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 1: strike a deal with them. Like, I've always felt like

865
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:34,840
Speaker 1: I'm in dangerous waters when I try to bring up

866
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:37,680
Speaker 1: rolls of parks in relation to this situation. But like,

867
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:41,400
Speaker 1: they were not activists. They weren't trying to set precedent.

868
00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:44,600
Speaker 1: They weren't trying to challenge precedent. They were legit Like,

869
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:45,960
Speaker 1: and I've met him, and I didn't think this is

870
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:48,400
Speaker 1: true until I met him. When I met him and

871
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:50,160
Speaker 1: heard the whole story from their mouths, I was like,

872
00:50:50,239 --> 00:50:54,280
Speaker 1: these dudes were legitimately just going hunting and they probably

873
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:58,680
Speaker 1: would have never said a word to anybody. Yeah, we

874
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:01,920
Speaker 1: found a sweet spot. I'm not gonna tell anybody about it.

875
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:05,120
Speaker 1: They were not activists. No, people think they were activists.

876
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:07,680
Speaker 1: I assumed they were activists. They're not activists.

877
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:10,919
Speaker 4: Yeah, they basically had an over the counter tag opportunity

878
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:13,959
Speaker 4: as a non resident in an area that had good

879
00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 4: game populations. They have to drive all the way from Missouri. Like,

880
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:21,360
Speaker 4: these guys were not gonna all of a sudden to

881
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:23,240
Speaker 4: have twenty trucks at camp.

882
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:26,240
Speaker 5: Right, they're a bunch of middle ages love to hunt.

883
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:27,440
Speaker 3: Not activists, you.

884
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:30,040
Speaker 1: Know, but you could picture it being activist though, right,

885
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:32,560
Speaker 1: you can picture someone saying we're gonna push this to

886
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:35,080
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court and I'm gonna call the police and

887
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:36,600
Speaker 1: tell them to be there at eight am. When I

888
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:40,400
Speaker 1: jumped the corner and I'm gonna drive this home. By god,

889
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:43,200
Speaker 1: they were like, yeah, man, I think he's probably some

890
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:47,319
Speaker 1: good help back there if we like call around and

891
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:49,719
Speaker 1: clarify that what we think is true is true when

892
00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:52,799
Speaker 1: going to hunt and holy cow, has it become talk

893
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:56,080
Speaker 1: about department of like unintended consequences? My god?

894
00:51:57,360 --> 00:52:01,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, that's my final point. But also, I mean,

895
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:03,960
Speaker 4: hats off to them too, because they weren't going to

896
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:07,080
Speaker 4: just like swallow a bad pill, right. They're like, well, no,

897
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:08,200
Speaker 4: that we are right.

898
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:12,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, they weren't activists, but they weren't suckers. Yeah, so

899
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:14,080
Speaker 1: when someone tried to stick it to them, they're like, Okay,

900
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:17,600
Speaker 1: I'm not. I mean, I'm confident in what I I'm

901
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:20,240
Speaker 1: confident that what I found out is true. I'm confident

902
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:24,640
Speaker 1: about the research. I'm confident about the informed assumptions I made,

903
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:27,400
Speaker 1: and to the to date they've been born out legally.

904
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:31,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, we do have to have to. I mean,

905
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:36,120
Speaker 4: Wyoming Chapter of Backcountry Hunters and Anglers for their expediency

906
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:40,759
Speaker 4: and back in these boys and oh and making sure

907
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:42,799
Speaker 4: that we're going to figure it out. I mean, that's

908
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:46,880
Speaker 4: that's amazing. I do have to say, I think this,

909
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:50,720
Speaker 4: this little story that I've told before is like really

910
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:53,520
Speaker 4: paints an interesting picture when we talk about because it's

911
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:57,120
Speaker 4: just so easy to simplify things into like land owner

912
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:03,520
Speaker 4: public land opposite sides of things. Right. Well, his buddy

913
00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:06,000
Speaker 4: of mine, Leo, I used to guide on his place.

914
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:10,360
Speaker 4: He had an enormous chunk of Petroleum County, sweetheart of

915
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:15,560
Speaker 4: a human being, awesome, awesome guy, and I used to

916
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:17,200
Speaker 4: ride around with him all the time. He'd come down

917
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:20,720
Speaker 4: to our camp. We outfitted our base was on his place,

918
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:24,239
Speaker 4: and just to like nothing's black and white, right, he

919
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:28,040
Speaker 4: is a huge private landowner. He's got a bunch of

920
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:32,200
Speaker 4: his property in our private land public access program, which

921
00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:35,359
Speaker 4: you know he can't outfit on. But we had our

922
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:37,799
Speaker 4: camp on a chunk of private that wasn't in his

923
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:42,200
Speaker 4: block management chunk. So you know, we had a sweet

924
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:46,239
Speaker 4: spot right there. So he had private, private access, he

925
00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:49,520
Speaker 4: had private access open to the public. Truth be known,

926
00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:50,880
Speaker 4: if he ever knocked on his door, he was just

927
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:56,120
Speaker 4: gonna say yes anyway, access. But he'd come down, he'd

928
00:53:56,239 --> 00:53:59,000
Speaker 4: pick me up in the truck and we'd go just

929
00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:01,879
Speaker 4: he'd want to stuff and I'd open gates for him, right,

930
00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:07,560
Speaker 4: like very normal deal out there. And and I was

931
00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:11,080
Speaker 4: always interested in learning more of the country. And I

932
00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:19,520
Speaker 4: finally got a GPS and we came up to It's

933
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:24,319
Speaker 4: interesting because it's a state section aground, but the new

934
00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:29,400
Speaker 4: lease on that state section was the first person to

935
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:35,120
Speaker 4: fence it, and the fence was ended up taking about

936
00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:41,120
Speaker 4: a quarter mile of my buddy's private property. Like you

937
00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:45,160
Speaker 4: could stand on the corner post and you're like, man, this,

938
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:47,879
Speaker 4: I'm like, hey, you look at this. I mean, look

939
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:53,440
Speaker 4: how far the fence is on to your place right

940
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:57,440
Speaker 4: on me're like GPS plat map the whole nine yards

941
00:54:57,640 --> 00:54:59,680
Speaker 4: right because I was like doing my homework driving around

942
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:04,720
Speaker 4: with him, and he goes, huh. He goes, well, Ryan

943
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:09,040
Speaker 4: can on the whole damn world. And just like away

944
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:11,319
Speaker 4: we went and nothing was said. You know, it's like,

945
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:15,120
Speaker 4: well can the can on at all? You know, it's

946
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:15,959
Speaker 4: just like, oh my.

947
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:18,399
Speaker 1: God, Krinda's deleted on me the thing that I'm most

948
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:21,400
Speaker 1: dying to talk about, but we're short on time. Well, no,

949
00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:23,080
Speaker 1: let me just hit it real quick, because this is

950
00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:25,720
Speaker 1: the most interesting you want to talk about legal wrinkles.

951
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:28,920
Speaker 1: It's the weirdest thing when you go for if to

952
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:30,319
Speaker 1: say went out, there's never went and bought a gun.

953
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:31,919
Speaker 1: When you go buy a gun from an f FL

954
00:55:32,239 --> 00:55:35,000
Speaker 1: a federal Firearms licensee, you come in and do a

955
00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:40,000
Speaker 1: question a questionnaire, ten questions, eleven questions, stuff such as

956
00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:42,640
Speaker 1: are there any restraining orders against you? Have you ever

957
00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:47,040
Speaker 1: renounced your citizenship? Are you a fugitive from justice? Are

958
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:49,800
Speaker 1: you a felon? Are you addicted to drugs?

959
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:53,600
Speaker 3: Okay, there's like child support questions on there or something.

960
00:55:53,560 --> 00:55:55,040
Speaker 1: I don't believe. I don't I can't think of a

961
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:55,960
Speaker 1: child support question.

962
00:55:56,160 --> 00:55:57,960
Speaker 5: There may there may be like are you owing?

963
00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:05,200
Speaker 1: I don't remember that? Not look him up? Well hunter Biden, dude,

964
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:07,000
Speaker 1: I'd never thought in a millionaires I would say that

965
00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:14,840
Speaker 1: name in public because I like write, I don't like

966
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:18,080
Speaker 1: to go near politics that doesn't intersect with our areas

967
00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:23,640
Speaker 1: of focus. However, he just intersected a thing that I'm

968
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:29,360
Speaker 1: interested in. He bought a gun in twenty eighteen, Okay,

969
00:56:32,239 --> 00:56:35,279
Speaker 1: where a time when he has openly admitted he was

970
00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:41,799
Speaker 1: a crack addict. Soften. When he filled out his FFL form,

971
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:45,400
Speaker 1: he said that he's not addicted to drugs, but then

972
00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:48,680
Speaker 1: clarified that he is addicted to drugs in his book,

973
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:55,600
Speaker 1: in his book which puts him that he lied on

974
00:56:55,640 --> 00:57:02,080
Speaker 1: the FFL form. So now his many enemies are coming

975
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:05,759
Speaker 1: after him to be like, dude, you lied on the

976
00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:11,200
Speaker 1: gun control form. And his legal representatives are saying that

977
00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:16,000
Speaker 1: if this becomes a legal exposure to him, he's gonna

978
00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:19,760
Speaker 1: sue on behalf of his Second Amendment rights that a

979
00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:24,640
Speaker 1: crack addict should certainly well be able to get a gun.

980
00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:29,760
Speaker 1: Talk about like landing in a landing in a very

981
00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:35,840
Speaker 1: unexpected spot, almost as almost as bewildering as I was

982
00:57:35,880 --> 00:57:38,800
Speaker 1: when I saw it into that white oak and all

983
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:44,000
Speaker 1: that water came out, A lot of water came out

984
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:46,120
Speaker 1: of that tree. What was happening there?

985
00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:51,400
Speaker 6: Harlow tree? Uh huh, big cavity in the middle. A

986
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:54,720
Speaker 6: lot of times the pith, the heartwood, the tree will

987
00:57:55,240 --> 00:57:59,160
Speaker 6: decompose over time. And you know that's important for all

988
00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:02,080
Speaker 6: kinds of critters that use those cavities, and the space

989
00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:10,320
Speaker 6: inside as habitat is foldable water and everything not to me, no, uh,

990
00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:13,360
Speaker 6: And so you know stem flow water runs down through

991
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:15,800
Speaker 6: the you know, up lands on the canopy, runs down

992
00:58:15,840 --> 00:58:18,120
Speaker 6: the branches and finds its way into that.

993
00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:20,280
Speaker 1: So you think it was it was rain water hiding

994
00:58:20,280 --> 00:58:22,160
Speaker 1: in there. Yeah, filled up a hollow.

995
00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:27,520
Speaker 6: Why are just trying to push your buddy's buttons now, Steve.

996
00:58:27,440 --> 00:58:29,560
Speaker 1: Oh, you haven't done anything yet. He's gonna be this

997
00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:32,240
Speaker 1: next one is not gonna rile them up. Okay, explain

998
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:35,040
Speaker 1: how why Like when you go look at a spruce tree,

999
00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:42,160
Speaker 1: fir tree, okay, Christmas trees. Yeah, why are they shaped

1000
00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:42,960
Speaker 1: like a cone?

1001
00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:46,360
Speaker 6: Yeah? There, it's uh, it's a story of dominance and

1002
00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:48,640
Speaker 6: control and uh.

1003
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:54,760
Speaker 1: This ties back to what I was just talking about transitions.

1004
00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:58,760
Speaker 6: I'm listening. I'm listening now. It's uh, it really begins

1005
00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:01,160
Speaker 6: with that. And you know, the imperative of the tree

1006
00:59:01,160 --> 00:59:04,200
Speaker 6: to grow up towards what the sun right, and so

1007
00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:11,960
Speaker 6: there's it's like hormones that control that are activated in

1008
00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:14,360
Speaker 6: the in the top of the tree, the growing tip,

1009
00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:17,440
Speaker 6: the leader, right. Uh, there's a leader at the top

1010
00:59:17,640 --> 00:59:21,400
Speaker 6: on the spruce and firs in particular, they all have them.

1011
00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:23,800
Speaker 6: But at the top and at the ends of each

1012
00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:29,480
Speaker 6: branch there is a bud that's enclosed next year's leaves

1013
00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:34,680
Speaker 6: and shoot growth that is controlled the opening and the

1014
00:59:34,720 --> 00:59:39,439
Speaker 6: extension of which is controlled by the Each of those

1015
00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:43,760
Speaker 6: leaders exerts control over all the other buds below and

1016
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:47,800
Speaker 6: behind it. And so the leader at the top of

1017
00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:50,760
Speaker 6: the tree is exerting control over the ones just below.

1018
00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:53,720
Speaker 6: You look at the leader growth this u this summer

1019
00:59:53,880 --> 00:59:56,600
Speaker 6: on any of these trees, and you'll note an incredible

1020
00:59:56,600 --> 01:00:00,760
Speaker 6: pattern is that the top has that that noble length

1021
01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:03,160
Speaker 6: with the shoot length is longer on the top than

1022
01:00:03,200 --> 01:00:05,920
Speaker 6: it is on any of the subordinate branches. And that's

1023
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:08,000
Speaker 6: because the leader is saying, I'm the leader, and I'm

1024
01:00:08,040 --> 01:00:11,640
Speaker 6: going up, and it exerts this hormonal control over the

1025
01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:14,000
Speaker 6: It sort of regulates the growth of the others to

1026
01:00:14,120 --> 01:00:17,680
Speaker 6: keep them from growing out sideways and trying to get

1027
01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:19,640
Speaker 6: up above it. Right, So it's it's this.

1028
01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:22,760
Speaker 1: But it's competing against its own self. Yeah, you can

1029
01:00:22,840 --> 01:00:26,840
Speaker 1: see it competing like it is, right, it's an organism.

1030
01:00:27,880 --> 01:00:30,560
Speaker 1: It's like a single individual. Sure you can see it

1031
01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:33,760
Speaker 1: competing against its neighbors time, but just a weird way

1032
01:00:33,760 --> 01:00:35,760
Speaker 1: to express at the top of the tree. But I

1033
01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:39,040
Speaker 1: guess it's like an ordered exactly it's ordered because it

1034
01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:41,920
Speaker 1: would be for one of the other branches to get

1035
01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:45,120
Speaker 1: uppity would be damaging to the whole tree.

1036
01:00:44,880 --> 01:00:47,200
Speaker 6: Right, because it's not really going in the right direction

1037
01:00:47,440 --> 01:00:49,880
Speaker 6: we need to get above. It's in fact, a way

1038
01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:54,760
Speaker 6: of ensuring or maximizing competitive edge over its neighbors is

1039
01:00:54,800 --> 01:00:57,240
Speaker 6: by making sure this the shoot, the leader is the

1040
01:00:57,320 --> 01:01:00,280
Speaker 6: leader and can really climb and get up above the

1041
01:01:00,640 --> 01:01:04,120
Speaker 6: competing plants around it, right, And so that's really what

1042
01:01:04,160 --> 01:01:08,120
Speaker 6: it is. It's just this pattern of control that, based

1043
01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:13,480
Speaker 6: on the way those conifer species are built, results in

1044
01:01:13,520 --> 01:01:18,360
Speaker 6: this sort of conical form. And then we can get

1045
01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:20,600
Speaker 6: into well what good is that? And that's a fun

1046
01:01:20,720 --> 01:01:23,680
Speaker 6: question in all these tree questions, is like any given trait,

1047
01:01:24,600 --> 01:01:26,320
Speaker 6: why does people are Why is it this way? Why

1048
01:01:26,320 --> 01:01:28,920
Speaker 6: is it that way? Well do basic answers. One is

1049
01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:32,840
Speaker 6: it happened sort of a mutation genetically. It just sort

1050
01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:34,960
Speaker 6: of occurred, and there's no good reason for it to

1051
01:01:35,000 --> 01:01:38,920
Speaker 6: be eliminated through selection. It doesn't harm the tree though,

1052
01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:41,520
Speaker 6: it sort of sticks around. The other answer is because

1053
01:01:41,520 --> 01:01:44,760
Speaker 6: it confers some advantage to the tree, right, And so

1054
01:01:45,400 --> 01:01:50,880
Speaker 6: in this case you're growing up and having this form,

1055
01:01:51,640 --> 01:01:53,920
Speaker 6: it's easy to imagine, well, where do these grow and

1056
01:01:54,160 --> 01:01:58,760
Speaker 6: montane environments heavy snow loads, and it's really good for

1057
01:01:58,840 --> 01:02:02,880
Speaker 6: shedding snow mm as opposed to that shape all out

1058
01:02:02,880 --> 01:02:06,640
Speaker 6: here bushy, and then you get branch breakage and snow loading.

1059
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:08,439
Speaker 6: So it's it's a means.

1060
01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:10,920
Speaker 1: That's a good point, man. They do slough snow real effectively.

1061
01:02:11,000 --> 01:02:11,360
Speaker 6: Wicked.

1062
01:02:11,520 --> 01:02:13,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, like when you get it, when you get

1063
01:02:13,160 --> 01:02:16,000
Speaker 1: like a June snowstorm, and all the deciduous trees are

1064
01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:18,640
Speaker 1: like snapping and limbs falling off from those things to

1065
01:02:18,680 --> 01:02:19,200
Speaker 1: shake it off.

1066
01:02:20,120 --> 01:02:22,480
Speaker 6: And so you know, it sort of starts with this

1067
01:02:22,600 --> 01:02:25,440
Speaker 6: hormonal control as sort of a growth regulation in the shape,

1068
01:02:25,920 --> 01:02:29,840
Speaker 6: and we can all imagine it confers some ability in

1069
01:02:29,880 --> 01:02:34,040
Speaker 6: their environments to kind of outcompete others and and actually

1070
01:02:34,120 --> 01:02:36,760
Speaker 6: just survive. First of all. Yep, it's the first order

1071
01:02:36,800 --> 01:02:37,280
Speaker 6: of business.

1072
01:02:37,880 --> 01:02:42,520
Speaker 1: I have a Colorado blue spruce that the top got

1073
01:02:42,560 --> 01:02:45,240
Speaker 1: busted out of it. It's chaos up there, exactly. And

1074
01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:47,000
Speaker 1: I've gotten up there and tried to tie a new

1075
01:02:47,080 --> 01:02:50,400
Speaker 1: dude in there to see if he could, Like, I

1076
01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:51,960
Speaker 1: tied him with a rope. See if you would like

1077
01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:55,960
Speaker 1: assume the dude it's chaos on the top of that

1078
01:02:55,960 --> 01:02:57,400
Speaker 1: tree I've given up on.

1079
01:02:57,520 --> 01:02:59,640
Speaker 6: That was the next point would exactly that, And you've

1080
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:04,720
Speaker 6: experien inst it is that when something does in pines

1081
01:03:04,800 --> 01:03:09,480
Speaker 6: is a a weavil that often goes for the terminal

1082
01:03:09,480 --> 01:03:12,400
Speaker 6: shoot the leader. That's what did it, and they it

1083
01:03:12,560 --> 01:03:14,840
Speaker 6: kills it, and then it's chaos. As you describe it.

1084
01:03:14,880 --> 01:03:17,600
Speaker 1: They it looks like a crow, not a crowls. That's

1085
01:03:17,640 --> 01:03:19,440
Speaker 1: like on a sailboat. It looks like I mean like

1086
01:03:19,560 --> 01:03:21,360
Speaker 1: literally which is broom.

1087
01:03:22,000 --> 01:03:25,520
Speaker 6: And so what we do, uh in that circumstance in

1088
01:03:25,560 --> 01:03:27,960
Speaker 6: your yard or Christmas tree growers do it all the

1089
01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:30,520
Speaker 6: time is you share. And so when you have one

1090
01:03:30,560 --> 01:03:32,520
Speaker 6: that the leader that's broken off, you can get up

1091
01:03:32,560 --> 01:03:35,280
Speaker 6: in there and and just trim back that chaos a

1092
01:03:35,320 --> 01:03:37,880
Speaker 6: little bit and choose one. That's what I've advised countless

1093
01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:39,840
Speaker 6: landowners is, Oh, you know, it's not the end of

1094
01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:43,240
Speaker 6: the world. You can just choose that next best one

1095
01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:46,560
Speaker 6: that turns the secondary branch that was not the leader,

1096
01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:48,680
Speaker 6: but who has done pretty well and seems to be

1097
01:03:48,760 --> 01:03:51,600
Speaker 6: in a favorable position. Clip the other ones around it,

1098
01:03:51,640 --> 01:03:54,560
Speaker 6: take a third of their shoot elongation, clip it off,

1099
01:03:55,000 --> 01:03:58,200
Speaker 6: pruning chairs, and then that one that you left now

1100
01:03:58,240 --> 01:04:01,480
Speaker 6: has this advantage and it will what we call apical

1101
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:04,160
Speaker 6: dominance and become the one the boss.

1102
01:04:04,160 --> 01:04:09,520
Speaker 1: Shoot, it's a great name for the episode. Yeah, apical dominance.

1103
01:04:10,200 --> 01:04:13,840
Speaker 1: Look for that new podcast feed Nice Joe Seth, here's

1104
01:04:13,840 --> 01:04:14,320
Speaker 1: a forester.

1105
01:04:15,040 --> 01:04:18,600
Speaker 6: We we discussed that already and I immediately knew I

1106
01:04:18,680 --> 01:04:20,200
Speaker 6: liked him for a reason. And now I know.

1107
01:04:20,240 --> 01:04:21,760
Speaker 1: Why did he tell you about the tests he had

1108
01:04:21,800 --> 01:04:22,560
Speaker 1: to take? Tellim about the.

1109
01:04:22,520 --> 01:04:26,720
Speaker 8: Test we had a I think it was it was

1110
01:04:27,120 --> 01:04:31,439
Speaker 8: it was dendro dendrology. The we had a twig test

1111
01:04:31,480 --> 01:04:33,920
Speaker 8: where yeah, like an I D test where they gave

1112
01:04:33,920 --> 01:04:36,920
Speaker 8: you a section of of twig from the leaves. Leaves

1113
01:04:36,920 --> 01:04:41,200
Speaker 8: are yeah, said for sockers, yead identify. I forget how

1114
01:04:41,200 --> 01:04:43,240
Speaker 8: many different species. Well it was a lot you had.

1115
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:45,479
Speaker 1: I thought you said, it's like seventy or something like that.

1116
01:04:46,120 --> 01:04:48,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's something high like that. Yeah. Yeah, we had

1117
01:04:48,720 --> 01:04:50,480
Speaker 3: it just by the bud, just by the bud.

1118
01:04:50,680 --> 01:04:54,240
Speaker 6: It's classic. We had our dendro final at the University

1119
01:04:54,240 --> 01:04:56,240
Speaker 6: of Vermont when I back in another century.

1120
01:04:56,400 --> 01:04:56,560
Speaker 2: Uh.

1121
01:04:56,600 --> 01:04:59,160
Speaker 6: It was one hundred uh samples and so it was

1122
01:04:59,240 --> 01:05:02,360
Speaker 6: mostly buds, twigs, leaf scars, fruits, you know, like all

1123
01:05:02,360 --> 01:05:06,760
Speaker 6: different kinds and uh it was sort of legendary as

1124
01:05:06,840 --> 01:05:11,160
Speaker 6: this like real ball busting exam but a lot of

1125
01:05:11,200 --> 01:05:14,320
Speaker 6: pride in in like smoking it and getting it for sure.

1126
01:05:14,920 --> 01:05:17,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I got a question for you. It's not

1127
01:05:17,440 --> 01:05:20,680
Speaker 1: in your book. How dumb are you if you say acorn?

1128
01:05:23,840 --> 01:05:24,880
Speaker 3: I'm just for a friend.

1129
01:05:26,400 --> 01:05:28,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, you know, I like, I gotta say, and I'm

1130
01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:32,320
Speaker 6: hip to this, I'm not. Well, I'm I'm from from

1131
01:05:34,920 --> 01:05:38,160
Speaker 6: I will just say that, Steve. I really like hearing

1132
01:05:38,240 --> 01:05:41,160
Speaker 6: people who sound like they're from someplace, you know what

1133
01:05:41,240 --> 01:05:44,640
Speaker 6: I mean, America And I can't even say it is

1134
01:05:44,680 --> 01:05:49,320
Speaker 6: it akorn? When I hear some yeah, some tree love

1135
01:05:49,360 --> 01:05:52,480
Speaker 6: and nuts say acorn, I'm like, all right, he's from somewhere.

1136
01:05:52,520 --> 01:05:52,800
Speaker 3: I'm not.

1137
01:05:53,040 --> 01:05:53,439
Speaker 6: That's all.

1138
01:05:53,640 --> 01:05:55,360
Speaker 1: There's a I don't know if we have him on

1139
01:05:55,360 --> 01:05:57,720
Speaker 1: the website anymore. Of apparently there's some kind of patch

1140
01:05:57,840 --> 01:06:00,360
Speaker 1: or something with an acorn that says ache a e

1141
01:06:00,520 --> 01:06:01,440
Speaker 1: R n acren.

1142
01:06:01,560 --> 01:06:05,080
Speaker 8: I think just that that well, I think Paul Lewis

1143
01:06:05,120 --> 01:06:07,000
Speaker 8: made clay some of those patches.

1144
01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:22,240
Speaker 1: Uh, speaking of acorns, you know, my friend and I said,

1145
01:06:22,240 --> 01:06:25,160
Speaker 1: it's gonna be like fact checking everything you say. Yeah,

1146
01:06:25,280 --> 01:06:26,880
Speaker 1: me and him had a bet one time man, and

1147
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:28,960
Speaker 1: I can't remember the details of the bet. I remember

1148
01:06:28,960 --> 01:06:32,640
Speaker 1: I won it. It's gonna get into a question that

1149
01:06:32,680 --> 01:06:35,640
Speaker 1: you had. There are a question you deal in woods wise,

1150
01:06:36,600 --> 01:06:42,760
Speaker 1: but how many pounds? What's the most pounds of acorns

1151
01:06:44,000 --> 01:06:46,240
Speaker 1: that an oak tree might throw off?

1152
01:06:47,800 --> 01:06:50,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know in a given amount of time, Like.

1153
01:06:51,160 --> 01:06:54,000
Speaker 1: I think Bubbly Dog might have said something like hundreds

1154
01:06:54,040 --> 01:06:55,920
Speaker 1: of pounds, and I was like, that can't be true.

1155
01:06:55,920 --> 01:06:57,200
Speaker 1: I can't remember the details of the bet.

1156
01:06:58,280 --> 01:07:00,880
Speaker 6: I don't know that that's crazy. I'm mean, it's you've

1157
01:07:00,920 --> 01:07:02,840
Speaker 6: walked around out there in a big year. It's like

1158
01:07:02,920 --> 01:07:08,960
Speaker 6: marbles underfoot, you know, you know it beg a lot

1159
01:07:08,960 --> 01:07:11,200
Speaker 6: of branches, a lot of leaves they put them out, Uh,

1160
01:07:11,600 --> 01:07:14,800
Speaker 6: one tree, I mean hundreds of pounds seems maybe it's

1161
01:07:14,840 --> 01:07:15,760
Speaker 6: a little steep.

1162
01:07:15,640 --> 01:07:18,040
Speaker 1: That that probably was that. I'm sure that wasn't what

1163
01:07:18,120 --> 01:07:20,000
Speaker 1: it was, But I just didn't know if you if

1164
01:07:20,040 --> 01:07:20,720
Speaker 1: you happened and.

1165
01:07:21,480 --> 01:07:25,120
Speaker 6: I could, I could that's actually find a bowl, I'm sure, yeah.

1166
01:07:25,520 --> 01:07:30,240
Speaker 4: And acorns are nothing when like that's like a piddly

1167
01:07:30,320 --> 01:07:35,200
Speaker 4: ass little fruit compared to like a horse chestnut or

1168
01:07:35,280 --> 01:07:38,120
Speaker 4: black walnut. And you like there's some trees out there

1169
01:07:38,120 --> 01:07:40,800
Speaker 4: that produce some hefty, hefty fruits.

1170
01:07:41,360 --> 01:07:46,040
Speaker 1: That'd be an interesting you know, like, how is it

1171
01:07:46,200 --> 01:07:49,000
Speaker 1: caribou that have the highest ratio of horn weight per

1172
01:07:49,000 --> 01:07:51,920
Speaker 1: body antler weight per body weight maybe or something like that.

1173
01:07:52,280 --> 01:07:56,840
Speaker 1: It'd be interesting. The what tree? Damn apple tree?

1174
01:07:57,560 --> 01:08:04,280
Speaker 8: Maybe citrus high weight, perinean highest weight per weight you know.

1175
01:08:04,480 --> 01:08:08,080
Speaker 1: Racial. But here's what okay, So on the acorn subject,

1176
01:08:09,160 --> 01:08:14,560
Speaker 1: you're going acorn? Oh, yeah, big time, now that he

1177
01:08:14,600 --> 01:08:18,680
Speaker 1: knows it's not stupid. Does the bumper crop of acorns

1178
01:08:19,760 --> 01:08:22,040
Speaker 1: predict a harsh winter? That's the thing I've heard my

1179
01:08:22,080 --> 01:08:24,479
Speaker 1: whole life. Of course, you have the trees made a

1180
01:08:24,520 --> 01:08:28,280
Speaker 1: lot of acorns. The thinking goes, trees produce a lot

1181
01:08:28,280 --> 01:08:32,000
Speaker 1: of acorns this year. Uh, they're and the logic is

1182
01:08:32,000 --> 01:08:36,120
Speaker 1: they're very nice, they're very kind, and they are wanting

1183
01:08:36,160 --> 01:08:40,639
Speaker 1: to help their animal brethren get through this severe knowing

1184
01:08:40,680 --> 01:08:42,760
Speaker 1: it's going to be such a bad winter and all

1185
01:08:42,760 --> 01:08:46,040
Speaker 1: the animals are going to be hard up. They have

1186
01:08:47,160 --> 01:08:54,439
Speaker 1: magnanimously thrown off a hellacious crop of acorns.

1187
01:08:54,520 --> 01:08:57,200
Speaker 3: Right, it's like the amount of black and a holy bugger?

1188
01:08:57,640 --> 01:08:57,760
Speaker 1: Right?

1189
01:08:57,920 --> 01:08:58,519
Speaker 3: Did you ever hear that?

1190
01:08:58,600 --> 01:08:58,960
Speaker 6: On though?

1191
01:09:00,160 --> 01:09:02,599
Speaker 8: Like a wooly bugger back east, like it's brown and black,

1192
01:09:02,760 --> 01:09:04,800
Speaker 8: and sometimes you see something that have a little bit

1193
01:09:04,800 --> 01:09:05,479
Speaker 8: of brown something.

1194
01:09:05,479 --> 01:09:06,839
Speaker 3: I've seen them all black before.

1195
01:09:07,439 --> 01:09:07,880
Speaker 1: And what's that.

1196
01:09:08,240 --> 01:09:10,719
Speaker 8: I've heard that the more black on the wooly bugger,

1197
01:09:10,760 --> 01:09:11,960
Speaker 8: the harsher the winter is going to be.

1198
01:09:12,200 --> 01:09:15,680
Speaker 1: And there's that the animals have a particularly thick fur

1199
01:09:15,800 --> 01:09:18,439
Speaker 1: this fall. It's gonna be a hellacious winner.

1200
01:09:18,520 --> 01:09:22,160
Speaker 6: Yeah. Yeah, So like those subjects you don't like to

1201
01:09:22,200 --> 01:09:25,160
Speaker 6: go near, this is these ky who am I to

1202
01:09:25,560 --> 01:09:29,439
Speaker 6: interrupt generations of folklore? You know that you know it's

1203
01:09:29,479 --> 01:09:32,799
Speaker 6: coming from a good place, But no, they're wrong. It's uh.

1204
01:09:33,479 --> 01:09:37,400
Speaker 6: In the case of masting, this sort of synchronous bulk

1205
01:09:37,479 --> 01:09:42,120
Speaker 6: production of seed or fruits within a species across quite

1206
01:09:42,160 --> 01:09:45,280
Speaker 6: a range. Explain synchronous all at the same time one year,

1207
01:09:45,360 --> 01:09:48,400
Speaker 6: where all the trees are are the oak trees in

1208
01:09:48,439 --> 01:09:51,200
Speaker 6: a given valley or whatever are all putting out a

1209
01:09:51,200 --> 01:09:56,160
Speaker 6: lot of acorns every year that year, so in synchrony

1210
01:09:56,240 --> 01:09:59,680
Speaker 6: with each other. Right, So that's masting in general. So

1211
01:10:00,240 --> 01:10:03,720
Speaker 6: this idea is that when that happens, it's any production

1212
01:10:03,800 --> 01:10:08,200
Speaker 6: of fruit really is more a reflection of past environmental

1213
01:10:08,240 --> 01:10:11,679
Speaker 6: conditions in particular and energetic conditions of the tree. It's

1214
01:10:11,720 --> 01:10:15,040
Speaker 6: sort of status health status. It's way more about what

1215
01:10:15,160 --> 01:10:17,400
Speaker 6: it has experienced in the last few years than what

1216
01:10:17,520 --> 01:10:19,439
Speaker 6: it is thinking the next year is going to be.

1217
01:10:20,000 --> 01:10:22,640
Speaker 6: So it's more a prediction of what has happened than

1218
01:10:22,680 --> 01:10:25,479
Speaker 6: a reflection of what has happened than a prediction of

1219
01:10:25,479 --> 01:10:27,879
Speaker 6: what is about to happen. It's not a good predictor

1220
01:10:27,880 --> 01:10:31,000
Speaker 6: of the future. It's telling you that did pretty well

1221
01:10:31,080 --> 01:10:33,599
Speaker 6: the last couple of years growing seasons in terms of moisture,

1222
01:10:33,760 --> 01:10:38,960
Speaker 6: nutrient uptake, solar gain. It takes a lot of energy

1223
01:10:39,000 --> 01:10:41,640
Speaker 6: to produce all of those fruits, and it's at the

1224
01:10:41,680 --> 01:10:46,679
Speaker 6: expense of root growth, diameter growth, shoot growth, height growth, right,

1225
01:10:47,520 --> 01:10:50,559
Speaker 6: But it's the biological imperative past those genes on and

1226
01:10:50,600 --> 01:10:53,439
Speaker 6: so they're built to do this. And what's really cool

1227
01:10:53,560 --> 01:10:56,120
Speaker 6: when you look across a range of species over a

1228
01:10:56,160 --> 01:10:59,439
Speaker 6: long march of time and geeky for scientists kind of

1229
01:11:00,680 --> 01:11:05,280
Speaker 6: tracking and then hypothesizing and testing, is what has emerged

1230
01:11:05,360 --> 01:11:10,599
Speaker 6: is this predator. It's a seed predator satiation hypothesis. That is,

1231
01:11:11,000 --> 01:11:14,400
Speaker 6: it's a strategy, a reproductive strategy to bulk up your

1232
01:11:14,520 --> 01:11:17,960
Speaker 6: energy story, your energy reserves and then put out a

1233
01:11:17,960 --> 01:11:22,320
Speaker 6: bunch of acorns in this case this year, everybody doing

1234
01:11:22,360 --> 01:11:27,240
Speaker 6: it kind of together to overwhelm all the seed predators

1235
01:11:27,360 --> 01:11:28,040
Speaker 6: think squirrels.

1236
01:11:28,560 --> 01:11:32,519
Speaker 1: Are you familiar with the term predator swamping? And with

1237
01:11:32,760 --> 01:11:35,840
Speaker 1: birds and animals, I mean like when you get these

1238
01:11:35,920 --> 01:11:40,760
Speaker 1: huge aggregations of nesting birds for it, like geese, like

1239
01:11:40,920 --> 01:11:47,439
Speaker 1: snow geese in the Arctic, huge aggregations synchronized egg laying,

1240
01:11:48,760 --> 01:11:52,680
Speaker 1: and they're getting hammered by predators. But it happens so

1241
01:11:52,840 --> 01:11:57,439
Speaker 1: fast that even with all the Arctic foxes, all the

1242
01:11:57,479 --> 01:12:01,840
Speaker 1: red foxes, everything, eating all those eggs, they can't get

1243
01:12:01,880 --> 01:12:03,519
Speaker 1: to them all in time. This is the same thing

1244
01:12:03,720 --> 01:12:05,559
Speaker 1: had you spread it out over the whole summer, they

1245
01:12:05,560 --> 01:12:07,479
Speaker 1: probably would have gotten every last one. But also it's

1246
01:12:07,520 --> 01:12:10,920
Speaker 1: like wham, we're gonna lose fifty fifty percent. They won't

1247
01:12:10,920 --> 01:12:12,800
Speaker 1: get to exactly, and then those ones will be able

1248
01:12:12,840 --> 01:12:14,240
Speaker 1: to fly by the time they get to them, you.

1249
01:12:14,240 --> 01:12:18,240
Speaker 6: Know, very similar. I think sort of idea here is that, yeah,

1250
01:12:18,280 --> 01:12:20,800
Speaker 6: in those big years you put out so many that

1251
01:12:21,360 --> 01:12:24,000
Speaker 6: some acorns are going to become oak trees, you know,

1252
01:12:24,000 --> 01:12:26,439
Speaker 6: they just and then the lean years where you don't

1253
01:12:26,439 --> 01:12:31,280
Speaker 6: put it out, that's actually keeping those squirrel populations somewhat

1254
01:12:31,280 --> 01:12:34,360
Speaker 6: in check. It's limiting them by by limiting their availability

1255
01:12:34,360 --> 01:12:38,479
Speaker 6: of food resources, right, So it's kind of both. And

1256
01:12:38,600 --> 01:12:41,200
Speaker 6: the idea is somebody gets a little wacky and start

1257
01:12:41,200 --> 01:12:43,920
Speaker 6: an oak tree, starts putting out in an off year. Well,

1258
01:12:44,560 --> 01:12:48,320
Speaker 6: they're going to lose all their acorns because the predators

1259
01:12:48,360 --> 01:12:50,720
Speaker 6: are kind of hungry for it. Right, So it's the

1260
01:12:50,800 --> 01:12:52,840
Speaker 6: same idea of like doing it at the same time

1261
01:12:53,240 --> 01:12:55,559
Speaker 6: and doing it over every few years instead of every

1262
01:12:55,640 --> 01:12:58,920
Speaker 6: year to build. So it's also allows you to then

1263
01:12:59,000 --> 01:13:03,480
Speaker 6: kind of rebuild your reserves, your energy and nutrient reserves

1264
01:13:03,840 --> 01:13:07,880
Speaker 6: so as to be able to make flowers and then

1265
01:13:07,920 --> 01:13:10,559
Speaker 6: fruits in the case of acorns, make sense.

1266
01:13:10,400 --> 01:13:13,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, you were pointing out in your book, you're pointing

1267
01:13:13,160 --> 01:13:16,400
Speaker 1: out an interesting thing as well, that a lot of

1268
01:13:16,400 --> 01:13:20,519
Speaker 1: oak trees are the same age, same same birth date

1269
01:13:21,800 --> 01:13:26,120
Speaker 1: because that system is effective. Like that, meaning on these

1270
01:13:26,160 --> 01:13:28,200
Speaker 1: years where they got like a piss poor amount of acorns,

1271
01:13:28,680 --> 01:13:31,360
Speaker 1: they're just getting eaten because there's not that many around

1272
01:13:31,400 --> 01:13:33,120
Speaker 1: and there's so many animals that they're going to find them.

1273
01:13:33,439 --> 01:13:35,640
Speaker 1: But then on those bumper crop years, you find that

1274
01:13:35,680 --> 01:13:39,200
Speaker 1: when you go into a stand, right, you'll find that

1275
01:13:39,439 --> 01:13:44,719
Speaker 1: those bumper crop years being actually reflected in any generation

1276
01:13:45,400 --> 01:13:49,439
Speaker 1: in recruitment, meaning like whatever twenty twenty two had a

1277
01:13:49,439 --> 01:13:52,759
Speaker 1: big bumper crop, you might find that down the road

1278
01:13:53,040 --> 01:13:55,360
Speaker 1: when you like age a bunch of trees, you age

1279
01:13:55,360 --> 01:13:59,120
Speaker 1: them back to that that that worked, like that big

1280
01:13:59,200 --> 01:14:02,480
Speaker 1: year was a made oak trees.

1281
01:14:02,360 --> 01:14:05,000
Speaker 6: Sort of cost benefit analysis, if you will. I mean,

1282
01:14:05,040 --> 01:14:09,800
Speaker 6: we're dangerously close to wild anthropomorphisms here all over the place,

1283
01:14:09,840 --> 01:14:13,280
Speaker 6: but it's helpful for the conversation, you know, to think

1284
01:14:13,320 --> 01:14:15,439
Speaker 6: of it this way. Yeah, and it stands to reason.

1285
01:14:15,680 --> 01:14:17,600
Speaker 1: And you brought up a thing that I've tried to

1286
01:14:17,640 --> 01:14:23,320
Speaker 1: explain in the past. Stephen Gould, Stephen J. Stephen J. Gould,

1287
01:14:24,160 --> 01:14:28,800
Speaker 1: He'd like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna butcher this this thought.

1288
01:14:28,880 --> 01:14:30,599
Speaker 6: He had such great stuff.

1289
01:14:31,000 --> 01:14:34,000
Speaker 1: But he was like, we're always looking at when we

1290
01:14:34,000 --> 01:14:36,519
Speaker 1: look at nature, we're always saying, well, why is that

1291
01:14:36,600 --> 01:14:37,000
Speaker 1: that way?

1292
01:14:37,120 --> 01:14:37,240
Speaker 6: Right?

1293
01:14:37,280 --> 01:14:39,960
Speaker 1: And nowadays, like at a time you would have looked

1294
01:14:40,000 --> 01:14:42,400
Speaker 1: and everything would have you know, everything would have been

1295
01:14:42,400 --> 01:14:46,080
Speaker 1: explained as something divine or hidden. Right. And then we

1296
01:14:46,120 --> 01:14:50,400
Speaker 1: fell in love with rational thought, and and and how

1297
01:14:50,880 --> 01:14:54,000
Speaker 1: we defined scientific rational thought. We fell in love with

1298
01:14:54,000 --> 01:14:58,840
Speaker 1: with natural selection evolution, and so we came this idea that,

1299
01:14:58,960 --> 01:15:04,960
Speaker 1: like everything you see must be advantageous exactly Okay, So

1300
01:15:05,520 --> 01:15:10,840
Speaker 1: why is that tree's bark grayish brown? What is the

1301
01:15:10,880 --> 01:15:14,040
Speaker 1: advantage of its bark being grayish brown? And Stephen J. Goolle,

1302
01:15:14,040 --> 01:15:17,200
Speaker 1: I can't remember why he wrote this, is he was saying,

1303
01:15:18,439 --> 01:15:24,040
Speaker 1: maybe just because exactly me, maybe really thick bark is

1304
01:15:24,120 --> 01:15:27,680
Speaker 1: advantageous to that tree because it's fire resistant. And for

1305
01:15:27,720 --> 01:15:33,680
Speaker 1: whatever reason that really thick bark is grayish brown. It

1306
01:15:33,680 --> 01:15:35,720
Speaker 1: doesn't hurt the tree, doesn't help the tree. It's just

1307
01:15:35,720 --> 01:15:38,840
Speaker 1: gray as brown. There's no why. And I think a

1308
01:15:38,840 --> 01:15:41,960
Speaker 1: lot of times we like to say animals do this.

1309
01:15:41,960 --> 01:15:44,120
Speaker 4: Because, yeah, what's its job.

1310
01:15:44,400 --> 01:15:48,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, they like to do that because and I'm like,

1311
01:15:49,080 --> 01:15:51,360
Speaker 1: I agree that they sure seem to like to do that.

1312
01:15:51,439 --> 01:15:55,200
Speaker 1: The because part man, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know.

1313
01:15:55,360 --> 01:15:57,840
Speaker 6: It's rampants, they say. And you know, God bless some

1314
01:15:57,880 --> 01:16:01,240
Speaker 6: forestry students, natural history students. They were asking these questions,

1315
01:16:01,320 --> 01:16:03,200
Speaker 6: why why why is it doing this? And it's really

1316
01:16:03,400 --> 01:16:05,720
Speaker 6: I've found that it really bums people out when I

1317
01:16:05,760 --> 01:16:08,920
Speaker 6: say there may not be a good reason. The reason

1318
01:16:08,960 --> 01:16:11,320
Speaker 6: may be that there's no reason for it to go away.

1319
01:16:12,040 --> 01:16:16,439
Speaker 6: However it emerged genetic mutation or what have you. It's

1320
01:16:16,439 --> 01:16:18,720
Speaker 6: here now. It's not conferring an advantage. It's just not

1321
01:16:19,040 --> 01:16:22,719
Speaker 6: a disadvantage. There's no selection pressure against it to remove

1322
01:16:22,720 --> 01:16:24,880
Speaker 6: it from the population, so it kind of perpetuates.

1323
01:16:25,160 --> 01:16:29,360
Speaker 1: A salmon's egg might just be orange, yeah, exactly, And

1324
01:16:29,400 --> 01:16:32,120
Speaker 1: if they were blue, there might be just as many salmon. Yeah,

1325
01:16:32,240 --> 01:16:34,320
Speaker 1: there might be just as many salmon around or not.

1326
01:16:34,560 --> 01:16:37,200
Speaker 6: And that gets fun too, just like what's going on here.

1327
01:16:37,280 --> 01:16:42,040
Speaker 1: That's why I'm always advocated for parallel universes in which

1328
01:16:42,040 --> 01:16:44,920
Speaker 1: we could run one with blue salmon eggs, one run

1329
01:16:44,960 --> 01:16:46,920
Speaker 1: with orange salmon eggs, and check in with each other

1330
01:16:46,920 --> 01:16:50,400
Speaker 1: now and then and see, like, you know, no one's

1331
01:16:50,400 --> 01:16:51,120
Speaker 1: taken me up on this.

1332
01:16:51,240 --> 01:16:53,839
Speaker 6: I have a feeling that when when you're doing research,

1333
01:16:54,120 --> 01:16:57,080
Speaker 6: if you were doing field science and research, you know,

1334
01:16:57,080 --> 01:17:00,200
Speaker 6: I have your control group, you know you don't. I

1335
01:17:00,240 --> 01:17:01,880
Speaker 6: have a strong feeling that you'd always want to be

1336
01:17:01,880 --> 01:17:02,960
Speaker 6: in the out of control group.

1337
01:17:03,040 --> 01:17:06,280
Speaker 1: Mm m sure, Yeah, to keep an eye on that one. Yeah, Uh,

1338
01:17:06,400 --> 01:17:09,080
Speaker 1: here's the one you had in your book that we've

1339
01:17:09,120 --> 01:17:13,120
Speaker 1: talked about one hundred times. In context of property taxes,

1340
01:17:15,360 --> 01:17:20,920
Speaker 1: does a hilly acre contain more land than a flat one.

1341
01:17:21,120 --> 01:17:25,720
Speaker 1: I've always wondered this, like if you own deeply in

1342
01:17:25,840 --> 01:17:28,800
Speaker 1: sized like like a certain however, we define an acre

1343
01:17:28,840 --> 01:17:32,320
Speaker 1: of land okay, and it's deeply in sized or it's

1344
01:17:32,360 --> 01:17:36,720
Speaker 1: mountainous like that person is getting a screaming deal on

1345
01:17:36,760 --> 01:17:40,439
Speaker 1: property taxes over the guy that owns the flat land

1346
01:17:41,160 --> 01:17:45,599
Speaker 1: because the person with the super steep ground has to

1347
01:17:45,640 --> 01:17:50,559
Speaker 1: own more square footage of surface area. The then the

1348
01:17:50,640 --> 01:17:56,120
Speaker 1: person in western Kansas paying taxes on acre ground.

1349
01:17:56,640 --> 01:17:57,160
Speaker 6: You got it.

1350
01:17:57,560 --> 01:17:59,720
Speaker 1: I mean it's like, how wildly off can it be?

1351
01:17:59,840 --> 01:18:02,360
Speaker 1: Like how much square footage of land can you own

1352
01:18:02,560 --> 01:18:04,080
Speaker 1: that's still being called an acre?

1353
01:18:04,200 --> 01:18:06,719
Speaker 6: Well, funny you asked, because I did push the pencil

1354
01:18:06,760 --> 01:18:07,080
Speaker 6: around a.

1355
01:18:07,040 --> 01:18:09,759
Speaker 1: Little biting significant if.

1356
01:18:09,680 --> 01:18:13,360
Speaker 6: On a large enough area, yes, but in most ownership

1357
01:18:13,560 --> 01:18:17,559
Speaker 6: sort of size ranges, yeah, it's some but not huge.

1358
01:18:17,680 --> 01:18:21,360
Speaker 6: So the deal is, you're right, the thinking is sound.

1359
01:18:21,720 --> 01:18:25,439
Speaker 6: With all this hilly terrain, there's more surface area and

1360
01:18:25,479 --> 01:18:26,400
Speaker 6: you nailed that, but.

1361
01:18:26,320 --> 01:18:27,840
Speaker 1: Really explain what an acre is to.

1362
01:18:28,240 --> 01:18:32,439
Speaker 6: So an acre by definition is forty three, five hundred

1363
01:18:32,439 --> 01:18:33,960
Speaker 6: and sixty square feet.

1364
01:18:34,000 --> 01:18:37,000
Speaker 3: Of that number was drilled into my head.

1365
01:18:37,160 --> 01:18:38,040
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, it's.

1366
01:18:38,080 --> 01:18:39,920
Speaker 3: Over and over and over.

1367
01:18:40,000 --> 01:18:42,320
Speaker 8: It explains where it came four three six, It's like

1368
01:18:42,840 --> 01:18:46,519
Speaker 8: it's there, yeah, never leave.

1369
01:18:47,920 --> 01:18:51,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, So originally I mean so that's a two dimensional

1370
01:18:51,240 --> 01:18:52,920
Speaker 6: that right, And this comes back we'll get back to

1371
01:18:52,960 --> 01:18:57,040
Speaker 6: the question. That's that's the issue. It's a two dimensional measure. Uh,

1372
01:18:57,080 --> 01:18:59,960
Speaker 6: an acre it's square be two hundred and eight point

1373
01:19:00,400 --> 01:19:05,679
Speaker 6: seven feet on a side, it's forty three thousand, five

1374
01:19:05,760 --> 01:19:10,120
Speaker 6: hundred and sixty square feet. And that, as I understand,

1375
01:19:10,360 --> 01:19:17,719
Speaker 6: came originally from a furrow, which became a furlong, which

1376
01:19:17,800 --> 01:19:20,400
Speaker 6: became the acre. So this will all be all started

1377
01:19:20,439 --> 01:19:26,200
Speaker 6: from the length. The distance an oxen could plow before

1378
01:19:26,240 --> 01:19:30,600
Speaker 6: needing a break was the length, and then yeah, you

1379
01:19:30,680 --> 01:19:33,880
Speaker 6: gotta love it, right, and then that turned into a

1380
01:19:33,920 --> 01:19:37,200
Speaker 6: team in a certain period of time, that was the acre.

1381
01:19:37,320 --> 01:19:41,519
Speaker 4: Do you think an oxen standard existed somewhere like, oh,

1382
01:19:41,720 --> 01:19:44,760
Speaker 4: that is measured off of that oxen? Yeah right, that

1383
01:19:44,800 --> 01:19:45,639
Speaker 4: we keep here.

1384
01:19:45,640 --> 01:19:48,840
Speaker 6: Badass oxen. I'm doing way more than that, right.

1385
01:19:48,920 --> 01:19:51,240
Speaker 1: Like I've all four measured the ground, but who's picking

1386
01:19:51,240 --> 01:19:51,920
Speaker 1: the ox.

1387
01:19:54,120 --> 01:19:59,120
Speaker 6: Excellent point. So with that prehistory there, an acre is

1388
01:19:59,360 --> 01:20:03,960
Speaker 6: a fixed square footage of area. And where it comes

1389
01:20:04,000 --> 01:20:07,200
Speaker 6: back to this question of hilly acre have more land

1390
01:20:07,280 --> 01:20:12,280
Speaker 6: than a flat acre is well of a hilly acre

1391
01:20:12,479 --> 01:20:15,439
Speaker 6: has more surface area. And that's what you said, Steve,

1392
01:20:15,479 --> 01:20:19,599
Speaker 6: and that's right. But real estate back to the corner crossing,

1393
01:20:19,600 --> 01:20:21,000
Speaker 6: I don't know if we're allowed to go back there.

1394
01:20:21,040 --> 01:20:24,479
Speaker 6: But these these lots are laid out not on surface

1395
01:20:24,520 --> 01:20:28,920
Speaker 6: area but as horizontal distance sort of floating above the ground.

1396
01:20:29,320 --> 01:20:32,679
Speaker 6: This is known as plane surveying p L A n E.

1397
01:20:33,120 --> 01:20:36,439
Speaker 6: It's a plane. And so the concept is the acre

1398
01:20:36,640 --> 01:20:39,280
Speaker 6: is like sort of hovering above the ground in this

1399
01:20:39,400 --> 01:20:42,479
Speaker 6: two dimensional thing. Now, so if you go out and

1400
01:20:42,520 --> 01:20:46,639
Speaker 6: measure from one corner pin to another, down a steep

1401
01:20:47,720 --> 01:20:51,080
Speaker 6: into a canyon or whatever, pulling a tape to measure

1402
01:20:51,080 --> 01:20:55,519
Speaker 6: the distance that that slope distance, the ground distance would

1403
01:20:55,520 --> 01:21:00,559
Speaker 6: be more simple geometry then the horizontal distance vating above

1404
01:21:00,600 --> 01:21:04,439
Speaker 6: those two points. And so by convention, that's all by

1405
01:21:04,520 --> 01:21:08,639
Speaker 6: convention it has. That's surveying is based on plane surveying.

1406
01:21:08,680 --> 01:21:13,080
Speaker 6: Now there is at large, like big ass scales they're

1407
01:21:13,160 --> 01:21:15,920
Speaker 6: surveying that takes into account the curvature of the earth

1408
01:21:16,120 --> 01:21:19,240
Speaker 6: there is. Yeah, but that's not how property is measured

1409
01:21:19,280 --> 01:21:23,360
Speaker 6: and transacted, right, But that's a whole other kind of surveying.

1410
01:21:23,439 --> 01:21:25,519
Speaker 1: So in the best case scenario, you might have a

1411
01:21:25,920 --> 01:21:30,120
Speaker 1: one point what acres of surface area per you.

1412
01:21:30,080 --> 01:21:32,559
Speaker 6: Know, maybe zero point one point five you might get

1413
01:21:32,960 --> 01:21:36,200
Speaker 6: on this sort of garden variety. So people are getting

1414
01:21:36,240 --> 01:21:38,880
Speaker 6: a real scream a real screaming deal. But the bigger

1415
01:21:38,880 --> 01:21:41,600
Speaker 6: it gets, the steeper, the more of these folds that

1416
01:21:41,640 --> 01:21:45,120
Speaker 6: you have, Yeah, I mean you take takes a lot

1417
01:21:45,240 --> 01:21:47,439
Speaker 6: more to cover it if you are covering the surface.

1418
01:21:47,560 --> 01:21:49,680
Speaker 6: And that does translate and a touch on this in

1419
01:21:49,720 --> 01:21:54,439
Speaker 6: the book to growing conditions, opportunity sites for trees to exist,

1420
01:21:55,400 --> 01:21:58,280
Speaker 6: you know, on the slopes, and probably more important though

1421
01:21:58,360 --> 01:22:03,840
Speaker 6: where productivity of trees, timber, acorns deer because of their

1422
01:22:03,920 --> 01:22:10,879
Speaker 6: relationship with those trees and the fruits. It's more it's

1423
01:22:11,280 --> 01:22:14,439
Speaker 6: it's probably more about aspect the direction that slope faces

1424
01:22:15,400 --> 01:22:18,200
Speaker 6: where you we'll have a greater influence on what's growing

1425
01:22:18,200 --> 01:22:21,360
Speaker 6: there or the habitat conditions there. But anyway, the big

1426
01:22:21,479 --> 01:22:24,679
Speaker 6: version here is that the hilly acre has more surface area,

1427
01:22:24,720 --> 01:22:28,680
Speaker 6: but not more acres because acres are measured. As this

1428
01:22:29,000 --> 01:22:31,320
Speaker 6: plane hovering above about acorns.

1429
01:22:32,640 --> 01:22:34,479
Speaker 4: I still do a whole lot of looking out the

1430
01:22:34,520 --> 01:22:38,519
Speaker 4: airplane window every time I fly, and I honestly think

1431
01:22:38,520 --> 01:22:42,160
Speaker 4: about this a lot. Like us folks love to talk

1432
01:22:42,200 --> 01:22:46,320
Speaker 4: about like the grandeur of the landscape, right, and you're

1433
01:22:46,360 --> 01:22:48,639
Speaker 4: looking at all this amazing stuff, but you know, damn

1434
01:22:48,640 --> 01:22:51,240
Speaker 4: good and well there's somebody who's like, yeah, but wouldn't

1435
01:22:51,240 --> 01:22:53,280
Speaker 4: it just be nice if it was all flat?

1436
01:22:53,400 --> 01:22:54,280
Speaker 6: Oh?

1437
01:22:54,439 --> 01:22:56,479
Speaker 4: Right? So we really knew how much we had and

1438
01:22:56,520 --> 01:23:00,559
Speaker 4: how who owned what? Right, Like it just just make either.

1439
01:23:00,479 --> 01:23:01,280
Speaker 3: When I see people.

1440
01:23:01,280 --> 01:23:03,760
Speaker 1: When I see someone building the big like a new,

1441
01:23:03,760 --> 01:23:07,160
Speaker 1: big mansion on a steep hill, I'm al was like, yeah,

1442
01:23:07,280 --> 01:23:10,920
Speaker 1: he's got no flag ground that he was gonna put

1443
01:23:10,920 --> 01:23:15,639
Speaker 1: a garden, no tillable. Here's one of the answer really

1444
01:23:15,640 --> 01:23:18,120
Speaker 1: surprised me. I'm gonna spoil it by giving the answer.

1445
01:23:18,479 --> 01:23:20,559
Speaker 1: It's your show and then you do what you want

1446
01:23:20,560 --> 01:23:24,439
Speaker 1: with it. What did New England's forests look like prior

1447
01:23:24,479 --> 01:23:28,240
Speaker 1: to European settlement? When I dug into that one in

1448
01:23:28,280 --> 01:23:30,760
Speaker 1: the book, I was prepared to be depressed and was

1449
01:23:30,800 --> 01:23:33,120
Speaker 1: shocked to see that. You're like, you're The answer was

1450
01:23:33,400 --> 01:23:38,080
Speaker 1: probably about like they do now, there's some differences, but no, yeah,

1451
01:23:38,120 --> 01:23:40,080
Speaker 1: I was for some reason that I was like, uh,

1452
01:23:40,160 --> 01:23:41,040
Speaker 1: I felt good about it.

1453
01:23:41,080 --> 01:23:43,639
Speaker 6: Well, because the question is very specific to the forests,

1454
01:23:43,800 --> 01:23:48,000
Speaker 6: not the landscape, right, like like now we have less forest, yeah, sure,

1455
01:23:48,560 --> 01:23:53,599
Speaker 6: more egotoriums. Right. Uh So the forests though in sort

1456
01:23:53,640 --> 01:23:57,600
Speaker 6: of the composition structure, a species composition, the arrangement of

1457
01:23:57,640 --> 01:24:01,840
Speaker 6: the trees, that is surprisingly I would agree with you,

1458
01:24:02,479 --> 01:24:08,920
Speaker 6: evidently because remember nobody really remembers, uh, surprisingly similar in

1459
01:24:09,000 --> 01:24:12,760
Speaker 6: terms of species composition, with some changes, with some notable exceptions. Uh,

1460
01:24:13,240 --> 01:24:17,960
Speaker 6: in the northeast, we have more aspen, more cherry, more birch,

1461
01:24:19,560 --> 01:24:23,479
Speaker 6: and more red maple than it was believed to be

1462
01:24:23,600 --> 01:24:29,040
Speaker 6: the case per your European contact. Okay, so the expense

1463
01:24:29,120 --> 01:24:33,360
Speaker 6: of what those what do they all have in common?

1464
01:24:33,400 --> 01:24:38,560
Speaker 6: They're more early successional sort of, they have poor shade tolerance.

1465
01:24:38,680 --> 01:24:41,479
Speaker 6: That these are fast growing pioneer type species you know,

1466
01:24:41,560 --> 01:24:44,439
Speaker 6: live fast, die young. So at the expense of the

1467
01:24:44,479 --> 01:24:48,559
Speaker 6: other the late successional, the hemlock, sugar maple, beach, that

1468
01:24:48,760 --> 01:24:53,799
Speaker 6: yellow birch that live hundreds of years. So we we've

1469
01:24:54,400 --> 01:25:00,000
Speaker 6: so the records indicate oak has, particularly in southern New England,

1470
01:25:00,960 --> 01:25:04,519
Speaker 6: has gone down in preponderance. You know. To me, the

1471
01:25:04,600 --> 01:25:07,360
Speaker 6: interesting thing about all that work is it's I guess

1472
01:25:07,400 --> 01:25:10,160
Speaker 6: it's surprising you would thought, oh, man, radically different.

1473
01:25:10,160 --> 01:25:12,240
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I thought it'd be like, oh, beech trees

1474
01:25:12,280 --> 01:25:14,120
Speaker 1: that were twenty feet across at the stone.

1475
01:25:14,360 --> 01:25:17,519
Speaker 6: Well, so so there's two things. One is the other

1476
01:25:17,560 --> 01:25:21,000
Speaker 6: piece is that the species mix that largely looks very

1477
01:25:21,080 --> 01:25:25,880
Speaker 6: much the same evidently is one. But I think it's

1478
01:25:25,920 --> 01:25:27,360
Speaker 6: really important to quickly move to.

1479
01:25:28,920 --> 01:25:29,040
Speaker 1: That.

1480
01:25:29,160 --> 01:25:31,799
Speaker 6: But the forest is very different. There are fewer lunkers,

1481
01:25:31,880 --> 01:25:35,120
Speaker 6: big ass giant trees, big old trees. There's way fewer

1482
01:25:35,200 --> 01:25:40,080
Speaker 6: down dead trees in a variety of sizes. Of course,

1483
01:25:40,120 --> 01:25:42,960
Speaker 6: woody material that we know now is plays this really

1484
01:25:42,960 --> 01:25:47,719
Speaker 6: important habitat and nutrients, cycling and water roll. Way less

1485
01:25:47,720 --> 01:25:49,519
Speaker 6: of that now than in the presettlement force.

1486
01:25:49,560 --> 01:25:51,000
Speaker 1: So when I said I was going to answer the question,

1487
01:25:51,000 --> 01:25:55,240
Speaker 1: I didn't do a very good job of answering it. Okay,

1488
01:25:55,520 --> 01:25:57,240
Speaker 1: well no, when I felt like you said, like, but

1489
01:25:57,439 --> 01:25:59,880
Speaker 1: like it would now yeah, so in species you got

1490
01:25:59,880 --> 01:26:01,920
Speaker 1: to cat Well.

1491
01:26:01,840 --> 01:26:03,360
Speaker 6: It's just that what do we mean by different? So

1492
01:26:03,400 --> 01:26:06,679
Speaker 6: the species mix is surprisingly similar, you were right about,

1493
01:26:06,720 --> 01:26:08,880
Speaker 6: And that's where you were going. I'm saying, there's more

1494
01:26:08,920 --> 01:26:12,040
Speaker 6: to a forest than the names of the trees out there.

1495
01:26:12,040 --> 01:26:15,760
Speaker 6: It's what sizes what ages, what physical spacing and arrangement

1496
01:26:16,640 --> 01:26:21,280
Speaker 6: there were, So old forests, which those primarily were, are

1497
01:26:21,360 --> 01:26:25,439
Speaker 6: exceedingly rare everywhere now, particularly in the northeast. One percent

1498
01:26:25,479 --> 01:26:28,000
Speaker 6: of the landscape is in what we would call actually

1499
01:26:28,120 --> 01:26:34,200
Speaker 6: old forest. Yeah, and so old forests are more than

1500
01:26:34,360 --> 01:26:37,200
Speaker 6: just the species that are there. It's it's so in

1501
01:26:37,240 --> 01:26:39,439
Speaker 6: other words, the species haven't changed all that much, with

1502
01:26:39,560 --> 01:26:42,760
Speaker 6: some notable exceptions. It's the composition, what we call the structure,

1503
01:26:42,960 --> 01:26:46,640
Speaker 6: the three dimensionality of the forest has changed a lot,

1504
01:26:47,160 --> 01:26:50,639
Speaker 6: a lot. And also I think there's reason to think that.

1505
01:26:51,000 --> 01:26:53,559
Speaker 6: I mean, these woods have been worked hard, right, they

1506
01:26:53,600 --> 01:26:57,519
Speaker 6: were cut repeatedly, and then they were it was sheep pasture,

1507
01:26:57,640 --> 01:27:02,160
Speaker 6: then it was cows, and so there's been an export

1508
01:27:02,240 --> 01:27:07,040
Speaker 6: of wool, milk wood, and let's not forget soil from

1509
01:27:07,120 --> 01:27:11,240
Speaker 6: these places, you know, over a few centuries. So they're

1510
01:27:11,320 --> 01:27:13,680
Speaker 6: much depleted. And I think it stands to reason that

1511
01:27:13,720 --> 01:27:16,559
Speaker 6: they're probably not they're different in other ways that maybe

1512
01:27:16,560 --> 01:27:18,760
Speaker 6: we're not able to see quite yet in terms of

1513
01:27:18,760 --> 01:27:22,040
Speaker 6: their what other organisms have gone missing, right that we

1514
01:27:22,080 --> 01:27:25,679
Speaker 6: don't pay attention to, not the charismatic megafauna. Right, they're

1515
01:27:25,800 --> 01:27:28,200
Speaker 6: largely the same with some we had elk, they're not

1516
01:27:28,200 --> 01:27:30,600
Speaker 6: there anymore. I mean, there's some big differences, but this

1517
01:27:30,680 --> 01:27:31,879
Speaker 6: makes sense like they're.

1518
01:27:31,680 --> 01:27:34,559
Speaker 4: Sort of like is it a fecundity type of question?

1519
01:27:34,760 --> 01:27:37,680
Speaker 6: Well, I'm sure the basic productivity of the sites I

1520
01:27:38,000 --> 01:27:41,720
Speaker 6: shouldn't say. I'm sure. I suspect strongly with reason that

1521
01:27:41,760 --> 01:27:45,080
Speaker 6: they're much depleted. The other piece I would think i'd

1522
01:27:45,080 --> 01:27:47,840
Speaker 6: say about this piece is that really floored me and

1523
01:27:47,920 --> 01:27:51,360
Speaker 6: I thought was really fun was how do I know this?

1524
01:27:51,439 --> 01:27:51,559
Speaker 2: Well?

1525
01:27:51,600 --> 01:27:54,439
Speaker 6: I know it from some published papers peer reviewed. How

1526
01:27:54,439 --> 01:27:57,559
Speaker 6: did they know it? This description of the change from

1527
01:27:57,560 --> 01:28:00,680
Speaker 6: the presettlement forest today? As I start the thing with

1528
01:28:00,760 --> 01:28:03,240
Speaker 6: kind of a wise ass remark, well nobody remembers. But

1529
01:28:03,400 --> 01:28:07,679
Speaker 6: fortunately the surveyors that were laying out the King's lots

1530
01:28:07,680 --> 01:28:11,280
Speaker 6: and original kind of doing doing these surveying in the north,

1531
01:28:11,439 --> 01:28:14,519
Speaker 6: in the northeast where they first landed, those first woodsmen

1532
01:28:14,560 --> 01:28:17,320
Speaker 6: going through the woods and surveying and laying out lots,

1533
01:28:17,360 --> 01:28:20,720
Speaker 6: and they were making notes of witness trees right on

1534
01:28:20,800 --> 01:28:24,000
Speaker 6: every corner, what are the trees around this? And so

1535
01:28:24,080 --> 01:28:28,519
Speaker 6: these researchers went and poured over, you know, hundreds and

1536
01:28:28,600 --> 01:28:33,240
Speaker 6: thousands of these old surveyor records and then kind of

1537
01:28:33,439 --> 01:28:37,240
Speaker 6: you know, kind of summarized and computerized them and kind

1538
01:28:37,240 --> 01:28:40,040
Speaker 6: of analyzed them. And that's the basis of this, Like

1539
01:28:40,280 --> 01:28:44,680
Speaker 6: what's the the occurrence of species then versus now? And

1540
01:28:44,680 --> 01:28:46,200
Speaker 6: that that's it. I just find that to be a

1541
01:28:46,240 --> 01:28:49,360
Speaker 6: really cool little bit of science to somebody where kind

1542
01:28:49,360 --> 01:28:52,520
Speaker 6: of creatively found a way to get at an answer.

1543
01:28:52,200 --> 01:28:54,479
Speaker 1: Maybe like accidental accidental citizen science.

1544
01:28:54,640 --> 01:28:59,400
Speaker 6: Yeah, really cool and right that these guys then cultivated

1545
01:28:59,400 --> 01:29:01,600
Speaker 6: and sort of un earth and sort of an archaeological

1546
01:29:01,680 --> 01:29:04,960
Speaker 6: kind of approach to those records and then rebuilt a

1547
01:29:05,000 --> 01:29:09,840
Speaker 6: picture of the species mix, but not the the as

1548
01:29:09,880 --> 01:29:14,280
Speaker 6: I say that, the structure and other forms of composition

1549
01:29:14,320 --> 01:29:15,960
Speaker 6: of the forest that are really important.

1550
01:29:16,320 --> 01:29:16,479
Speaker 7: Uh.

1551
01:29:16,640 --> 01:29:20,680
Speaker 1: Me and me and my colleague doctor Randall, we're discussing

1552
01:29:20,720 --> 01:29:24,640
Speaker 1: something like this recently where we're working on it.

1553
01:29:24,680 --> 01:29:30,120
Speaker 4: Sounds so official when you put it in those terms.

1554
01:29:31,080 --> 01:29:34,080
Speaker 1: We've made up a song about him. It's like what

1555
01:29:34,280 --> 01:29:38,000
Speaker 1: good is being a doctor when you can't prescribe no drug?

1556
01:29:43,439 --> 01:29:46,640
Speaker 1: It's like, how could there actually be a doctor of history.

1557
01:29:48,680 --> 01:29:50,599
Speaker 1: I gotta work on the tune, the melody, the melody

1558
01:29:50,640 --> 01:29:53,879
Speaker 1: and the lyrics is suffering. But doctor Randall, now we're observing.

1559
01:29:54,600 --> 01:29:58,559
Speaker 1: We're working on these audio We're working on these audio

1560
01:29:58,600 --> 01:30:09,719
Speaker 1: books about long hunters and mountain men. Okay, and rather

1561
01:30:09,760 --> 01:30:13,400
Speaker 1: than focusing on all the geopolitics and world events and stuff,

1562
01:30:13,479 --> 01:30:16,600
Speaker 1: focusing very heavily on the day to day nuts and

1563
01:30:16,600 --> 01:30:20,160
Speaker 1: bolts of how they did what they did. Maining. We

1564
01:30:20,280 --> 01:30:24,559
Speaker 1: know that Daniel Boone spent most of his career hunting

1565
01:30:24,600 --> 01:30:30,720
Speaker 1: deer hides. Okay, how how did he hunt deer? When

1566
01:30:30,720 --> 01:30:32,280
Speaker 1: he got up to a dead deer, what did he do?

1567
01:30:33,960 --> 01:30:37,000
Speaker 1: How did he prepare the hides for the market? How

1568
01:30:37,000 --> 01:30:40,200
Speaker 1: were they handled in camp? Why didn't they all rot

1569
01:30:40,240 --> 01:30:43,920
Speaker 1: when it rained? Who did he sell them to and where?

1570
01:30:44,080 --> 01:30:47,439
Speaker 1: And for how much? Who wanted that leather in for

1571
01:30:47,479 --> 01:30:56,000
Speaker 1: what purpose? Okay? So many of these questions are exceedingly

1572
01:30:56,080 --> 01:31:02,080
Speaker 1: difficult to find out. Other things that chroniclers of the

1573
01:31:02,120 --> 01:31:06,360
Speaker 1: time were fixated on are of low relevance to us,

1574
01:31:07,120 --> 01:31:13,400
Speaker 1: Meaning how an area was watered and what grew on

1575
01:31:13,439 --> 01:31:19,559
Speaker 1: it was of great importance to chroniclers. I went to

1576
01:31:19,600 --> 01:31:23,439
Speaker 1: the head of this creek. It was well watered here, here, here,

1577
01:31:23,479 --> 01:31:27,759
Speaker 1: and here with springs. There was a salt source here.

1578
01:31:29,400 --> 01:31:34,920
Speaker 1: This is what the timber array looked like. Uh, why

1579
01:31:34,960 --> 01:31:37,200
Speaker 1: in the hell would I write down how he skins deer?

1580
01:31:38,840 --> 01:31:41,720
Speaker 1: Who cares you skin deer? Like? You skin deer like?

1581
01:31:42,000 --> 01:31:42,200
Speaker 3: No?

1582
01:31:42,439 --> 01:31:48,160
Speaker 1: Like like write down what we ate? Whoever want to

1583
01:31:48,160 --> 01:31:51,240
Speaker 1: know that? What they want to know is is it

1584
01:31:51,320 --> 01:31:56,280
Speaker 1: well watered? And how right? And it's like it's in

1585
01:31:56,320 --> 01:31:59,599
Speaker 1: that way. And again there was always like the blazing

1586
01:31:59,640 --> 01:32:02,240
Speaker 1: of tree. It was they were going about what they

1587
01:32:02,240 --> 01:32:05,160
Speaker 1: were doing for money, and they were two steps ahead

1588
01:32:05,520 --> 01:32:11,240
Speaker 1: to describing land for other people. And I bring that

1589
01:32:11,320 --> 01:32:13,680
Speaker 1: up only because one it's a frustration that we're dealing with,

1590
01:32:13,760 --> 01:32:17,200
Speaker 1: and two, like those people did in New England, that

1591
01:32:17,320 --> 01:32:21,679
Speaker 1: might be an interesting that might be an interesting thing

1592
01:32:21,720 --> 01:32:25,280
Speaker 1: for for forresters trying to understand that middle ground that

1593
01:32:25,479 --> 01:32:29,400
Speaker 1: area of like Kentucky at that time. Because their descriptions

1594
01:32:29,439 --> 01:32:34,640
Speaker 1: do not conform at all to what the amount of

1595
01:32:34,640 --> 01:32:39,160
Speaker 1: American cane, right, Yeah, the amount of time they spend

1596
01:32:39,320 --> 01:32:45,200
Speaker 1: hiding in, living in, storing things in hollow trees. It's like,

1597
01:32:45,280 --> 01:32:47,880
Speaker 1: go find me some hollow trees now that a couple

1598
01:32:47,960 --> 01:32:51,479
Speaker 1: guys are going to sleep in. It's like what are

1599
01:32:51,520 --> 01:32:52,639
Speaker 1: they even talking about?

1600
01:32:52,760 --> 01:32:52,920
Speaker 6: Right?

1601
01:32:55,080 --> 01:32:58,600
Speaker 1: That stuff is just not He Boon lost one of

1602
01:32:58,600 --> 01:33:00,799
Speaker 1: his hunting buddies who got wounded hit by a musket

1603
01:33:00,880 --> 01:33:04,000
Speaker 1: ball and was high benchal blood to death in there,

1604
01:33:04,040 --> 01:33:06,880
Speaker 1: but went and hid himself in a hollow tree, gun

1605
01:33:06,920 --> 01:33:09,040
Speaker 1: and everything. It's like, where the hell's that tree?

1606
01:33:09,120 --> 01:33:11,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, few and far out there anymore.

1607
01:33:12,280 --> 01:33:14,000
Speaker 1: But in reading this stuff, it seems like it was

1608
01:33:14,040 --> 01:33:16,040
Speaker 1: like every time you turn around, there's a hollow tree

1609
01:33:16,080 --> 01:33:18,360
Speaker 1: big enough for you and your Boddy to like acts

1610
01:33:18,400 --> 01:33:19,640
Speaker 1: a hole into encamp in.

1611
01:33:19,840 --> 01:33:23,320
Speaker 6: Yep, yeah, no doubt. And that to me it raised

1612
01:33:23,320 --> 01:33:26,320
Speaker 6: a really important point that like these old forests that

1613
01:33:26,560 --> 01:33:30,719
Speaker 6: I would suggest are like that the best the best

1614
01:33:31,080 --> 01:33:33,760
Speaker 6: expression of a forest like it is, that's what they're

1615
01:33:33,800 --> 01:33:35,439
Speaker 6: supposed to be, right, So you look at those as

1616
01:33:35,479 --> 01:33:38,360
Speaker 6: the archetype of what a forest can be is like

1617
01:33:38,400 --> 01:33:43,720
Speaker 6: these old forests. A real common misconception is that it

1618
01:33:43,800 --> 01:33:47,840
Speaker 6: was this open. It's just this unbroken expanse of bomber trees,

1619
01:33:48,080 --> 01:33:52,880
Speaker 6: you know, huge trees from from Maine to Missouri, that

1620
01:33:52,920 --> 01:33:55,839
Speaker 6: whole bit. Now, even in these old forests, the evidence

1621
01:33:55,920 --> 01:34:00,360
Speaker 6: indicates and stands to reason that there's trees are under

1622
01:34:00,360 --> 01:34:05,960
Speaker 6: all kinds of daily, seasonal, yearly, long term assault. Right

1623
01:34:06,000 --> 01:34:11,280
Speaker 6: their branches break, there's insect outbreaks, wind, throw, ice, ice, storms, fire,

1624
01:34:11,760 --> 01:34:15,680
Speaker 6: and they occur and various return cycles and in various intensities,

1625
01:34:15,680 --> 01:34:18,760
Speaker 6: and that results over the long time in this kind

1626
01:34:18,800 --> 01:34:22,000
Speaker 6: of mixed mosaic of so you have even in these

1627
01:34:22,080 --> 01:34:25,120
Speaker 6: The point is, even in big, old, awesome, perfect if

1628
01:34:25,120 --> 01:34:27,719
Speaker 6: you will, old forests, there's baby trees, they're little trees.

1629
01:34:27,760 --> 01:34:30,719
Speaker 6: There's broken trees, there's ugly trees, there's patches of open

1630
01:34:31,040 --> 01:34:36,240
Speaker 6: there's wetland complaice beaver associated areas that with early successional habitats,

1631
01:34:36,320 --> 01:34:40,719
Speaker 6: that the matrix, if you will, was big bomber trees,

1632
01:34:40,800 --> 01:34:43,800
Speaker 6: old and long lasting, but interrupted here and there with

1633
01:34:44,080 --> 01:34:48,920
Speaker 6: all every conceivable stage of growth and type. Right, So

1634
01:34:48,960 --> 01:34:50,920
Speaker 6: that's what makes them powerful is they have all these

1635
01:34:50,920 --> 01:34:54,880
Speaker 6: different substrates, all these different surfaces, all these different possibilities

1636
01:34:54,920 --> 01:34:58,840
Speaker 6: for everything else associated to make a living. And that's

1637
01:34:58,920 --> 01:35:02,599
Speaker 6: what's really lacking now almost everywhere, you know, is.

1638
01:35:02,560 --> 01:35:07,920
Speaker 5: There an oh, sorry, is there an age an age

1639
01:35:08,000 --> 01:35:11,479
Speaker 5: kind of definition for the cutoff of you know, old

1640
01:35:11,840 --> 01:35:12,280
Speaker 5: of old.

1641
01:35:12,720 --> 01:35:17,120
Speaker 6: Yeah, growth, it depends by species. So like in the northeast,

1642
01:35:17,840 --> 01:35:21,240
Speaker 6: so eastern hemlock will go for maybe five hundred years,

1643
01:35:22,360 --> 01:35:26,080
Speaker 6: balsam fur not so much. You know, so an old

1644
01:35:26,200 --> 01:35:28,640
Speaker 6: balsam fir stand might be, you know, one hundred and

1645
01:35:28,640 --> 01:35:30,800
Speaker 6: fifty be wicked old for a bunch of balsam fur,

1646
01:35:31,360 --> 01:35:36,360
Speaker 6: but mid adolescents laid adolescents for hemlock stand, if you will, right,

1647
01:35:36,680 --> 01:35:40,759
Speaker 6: And so we define it less. I think ecologists define

1648
01:35:40,760 --> 01:35:45,280
Speaker 6: it less by just age and more by age and

1649
01:35:45,479 --> 01:35:50,800
Speaker 6: other evidence of having escaped human disturbance. Stumps, fences, you know,

1650
01:35:50,840 --> 01:35:55,200
Speaker 6: barbed wire, buried in trees, stone piles, all of it. Right,

1651
01:35:55,320 --> 01:35:58,719
Speaker 6: So we have a definition for our tax abatement program

1652
01:35:58,760 --> 01:36:02,200
Speaker 6: for forest landowners that you can qualify for you know,

1653
01:36:02,240 --> 01:36:06,759
Speaker 6: sort of different treatment, different management requirements for old forest

1654
01:36:07,400 --> 01:36:10,240
Speaker 6: if you can demonstrate yes and you meet this certain

1655
01:36:10,240 --> 01:36:14,960
Speaker 6: threshold of age for the appropriate to the forest type.

1656
01:36:15,120 --> 01:36:17,640
Speaker 6: But you also have to show that is not just

1657
01:36:17,680 --> 01:36:20,759
Speaker 6: a couple of big old trees that just escaped harvest

1658
01:36:21,000 --> 01:36:24,680
Speaker 6: or other disturbance, but that there's been no human disturbance

1659
01:36:24,760 --> 01:36:27,320
Speaker 6: for that long period of time. And then you look

1660
01:36:27,360 --> 01:36:31,519
Speaker 6: for other things like the presence of down trees in

1661
01:36:31,600 --> 01:36:35,320
Speaker 6: all diameter classes, not just little twigs on the ground,

1662
01:36:35,400 --> 01:36:38,639
Speaker 6: but big trees, you know, in various stages of decay.

1663
01:36:38,760 --> 01:36:41,559
Speaker 6: So you know it's all the parts and pieces that

1664
01:36:42,240 --> 01:36:45,479
Speaker 6: are considered when and I think most I think it's

1665
01:36:45,479 --> 01:36:48,240
Speaker 6: fair to say that's the a conventional approach to kind

1666
01:36:48,240 --> 01:36:50,960
Speaker 6: of defining or creating a threshold for what is or

1667
01:36:51,080 --> 01:36:52,519
Speaker 6: isn't an old forest.

1668
01:36:53,000 --> 01:36:57,160
Speaker 4: Had a couple real interesting days of hiking in northwest

1669
01:36:57,200 --> 01:37:03,120
Speaker 4: Montana here last week, and it was really gorgeous. But

1670
01:37:03,280 --> 01:37:07,600
Speaker 4: it all changed for me once I kind of realized

1671
01:37:07,960 --> 01:37:11,320
Speaker 4: what was happening is I was looking for this roost tree,

1672
01:37:11,560 --> 01:37:14,200
Speaker 4: like I knew these turkeys were in this area, and

1673
01:37:14,400 --> 01:37:17,880
Speaker 4: you know, typically a lot of landscapes is not that hard,

1674
01:37:18,280 --> 01:37:20,599
Speaker 4: like if you have a general area where the gobbles

1675
01:37:20,600 --> 01:37:22,240
Speaker 4: are coming from early in the morning.

1676
01:37:22,479 --> 01:37:23,920
Speaker 1: Oh to be like, yeah, I bet they're hanging out

1677
01:37:23,920 --> 01:37:24,720
Speaker 1: on that tree.

1678
01:37:24,520 --> 01:37:29,080
Speaker 4: Exactly like that one right. Well, because all of a sudden,

1679
01:37:29,240 --> 01:37:32,240
Speaker 4: I'm looking through this new lens, I started looking around

1680
01:37:32,360 --> 01:37:36,759
Speaker 4: this forest that was previously like very pretty and pleasant,

1681
01:37:36,800 --> 01:37:40,080
Speaker 4: and I'm like, there is not a tree here that

1682
01:37:40,360 --> 01:37:44,840
Speaker 4: is a different age class. Every single tree, you know,

1683
01:37:44,960 --> 01:37:47,559
Speaker 4: it was like the same. And it just it just

1684
01:37:47,600 --> 01:37:50,800
Speaker 4: like totally changed my experience because of that. Yeah, because

1685
01:37:50,840 --> 01:37:54,200
Speaker 4: it was just like it whoever was doing the forest

1686
01:37:54,200 --> 01:37:57,479
Speaker 4: try in that area, Like I mean, it was amazing,

1687
01:37:57,600 --> 01:38:01,800
Speaker 4: It was beautiful, it was wonderful. But there was no

1688
01:38:01,960 --> 01:38:05,559
Speaker 4: mistaking that everything had been touched by the hand of man, right.

1689
01:38:05,760 --> 01:38:08,400
Speaker 3: I was just like, oh, yeah.

1690
01:38:07,800 --> 01:38:11,960
Speaker 4: I am in like a city park almost, you know

1691
01:38:12,000 --> 01:38:12,400
Speaker 4: what I mean?

1692
01:38:13,439 --> 01:38:25,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was just big silver culture. Yes, let's get

1693
01:38:25,960 --> 01:38:29,040
Speaker 1: to the one everybody here wants to talk about. What's

1694
01:38:29,040 --> 01:38:30,840
Speaker 1: the difference between sat wood and heartwood.

1695
01:38:32,800 --> 01:38:38,120
Speaker 6: I can't go anywhere without people asking me that one. Steve, Uh,

1696
01:38:38,160 --> 01:38:39,080
Speaker 6: it's all wood.

1697
01:38:38,920 --> 01:38:41,280
Speaker 1: And you're gonna tie this into making light lighter material?

1698
01:38:42,160 --> 01:38:46,880
Speaker 6: Sure, okay, Uh, sat you know what I'm talking about,

1699
01:38:47,200 --> 01:38:48,280
Speaker 6: pine knots and whatnot.

1700
01:38:48,360 --> 01:38:49,320
Speaker 1: Is that tie into this or not?

1701
01:38:49,800 --> 01:38:52,519
Speaker 6: No? Not? Those are nots u and all like.

1702
01:38:52,520 --> 01:38:54,120
Speaker 1: The stuff that's got all the resident What the hell

1703
01:38:54,160 --> 01:38:54,599
Speaker 1: were Yeah?

1704
01:38:54,640 --> 01:38:54,840
Speaker 7: You had?

1705
01:38:55,160 --> 01:38:56,479
Speaker 6: Yeah, fat fat wood.

1706
01:38:57,840 --> 01:39:00,280
Speaker 1: I want to do satwood, heartwood.

1707
01:38:59,800 --> 01:39:02,360
Speaker 6: And Okay, so sapwood.

1708
01:39:02,840 --> 01:39:06,920
Speaker 1: Let's start with fat wood story where it makes most.

1709
01:39:06,640 --> 01:39:09,160
Speaker 6: Okay, we started with heartwood and sapwood. So I go there.

1710
01:39:09,439 --> 01:39:14,960
Speaker 6: And heartwood is is the wood in the inside of

1711
01:39:15,000 --> 01:39:19,280
Speaker 6: the tree, the oldest all of the oldest, the oldest

1712
01:39:19,320 --> 01:39:23,200
Speaker 6: wood within a tree. And the sapwood is the outermost

1713
01:39:23,560 --> 01:39:26,120
Speaker 6: ring of wood inside the bark. So we got to

1714
01:39:26,200 --> 01:39:31,040
Speaker 6: go anatomy one oh one here, and you've got xylum

1715
01:39:31,160 --> 01:39:33,639
Speaker 6: is the word that's just it's just a fancy name

1716
01:39:33,680 --> 01:39:38,240
Speaker 6: for wood. And you know, the cambium is this thin layer,

1717
01:39:38,400 --> 01:39:42,360
Speaker 6: a veil of living cells really near the just under

1718
01:39:42,400 --> 01:39:46,880
Speaker 6: the bark that divides and multiplies. It's it's really where

1719
01:39:46,920 --> 01:39:50,280
Speaker 6: tree growth happens. In diameter shoot growth is different. That's

1720
01:39:50,320 --> 01:39:53,400
Speaker 6: that apical bud that's extending the length of the tree.

1721
01:39:53,439 --> 01:39:56,320
Speaker 6: But diameter growth of the stem and the twigs that

1722
01:39:56,439 --> 01:40:00,880
Speaker 6: all comes from the cambium producing woods cells to the

1723
01:40:00,920 --> 01:40:05,439
Speaker 6: inside of itself and bark cells to the outside of itself.

1724
01:40:05,880 --> 01:40:09,040
Speaker 6: Go ya okay, And so as the tree and think of.

1725
01:40:09,520 --> 01:40:11,800
Speaker 1: The action is all happening at that layer, at.

1726
01:40:11,680 --> 01:40:15,000
Speaker 6: That layer exactly, and every year the tree puts on

1727
01:40:15,280 --> 01:40:17,479
Speaker 6: a layer. And you best way I think to think

1728
01:40:17,520 --> 01:40:20,840
Speaker 6: about this is like highway pylons, you know, traffic cones,

1729
01:40:21,120 --> 01:40:22,920
Speaker 6: like you stack them on top of each other. That's

1730
01:40:22,960 --> 01:40:25,519
Speaker 6: how the cone of growth is formed on a tree

1731
01:40:25,520 --> 01:40:28,839
Speaker 6: as well. So that why when you imagine cutting stacking

1732
01:40:28,920 --> 01:40:32,040
Speaker 6: up ten twelve highway cones on each other and then

1733
01:40:32,200 --> 01:40:36,320
Speaker 6: sawing through it transversely, you know, horizonally through. What would

1734
01:40:36,320 --> 01:40:38,800
Speaker 6: you have countain rings? You'd have rings. And that's how

1735
01:40:38,840 --> 01:40:41,120
Speaker 6: it works with trees. They lay down a layer of

1736
01:40:41,160 --> 01:40:44,439
Speaker 6: growth every year, and it's wood on the inside, bark

1737
01:40:44,479 --> 01:40:47,280
Speaker 6: on the outside. Well wait a minute, wait, how come

1738
01:40:47,320 --> 01:40:49,479
Speaker 6: there isn't this whole chunk of bark out there? Right?

1739
01:40:49,520 --> 01:40:52,679
Speaker 6: You got wood adding on every year. The quick answer

1740
01:40:52,760 --> 01:40:55,559
Speaker 6: there is that the bark sluffs off, it's exposed, and

1741
01:40:55,680 --> 01:40:58,840
Speaker 6: it it you know, So you have this relatively relatively

1742
01:40:58,880 --> 01:41:01,400
Speaker 6: thin layer of bark on the outside even though it's

1743
01:41:01,439 --> 01:41:04,400
Speaker 6: been created, just like the wood gets created on the

1744
01:41:04,400 --> 01:41:05,479
Speaker 6: inside people usually.

1745
01:41:05,840 --> 01:41:07,320
Speaker 1: So, yeah, so let's say you're talking about a four

1746
01:41:07,360 --> 01:41:13,120
Speaker 1: hundred year old tree. Yeah, okay, the oldest part presumably

1747
01:41:13,280 --> 01:41:16,479
Speaker 1: is like down at the bottom of the tree, dead center. Yes, okay,

1748
01:41:16,520 --> 01:41:18,559
Speaker 1: that's the oldest part, right, So on a four hundred

1749
01:41:18,600 --> 01:41:20,799
Speaker 1: year old tree, how old do you think.

1750
01:41:20,680 --> 01:41:25,000
Speaker 6: The bark is? That's you know, the bark that's there

1751
01:41:25,200 --> 01:41:28,200
Speaker 6: is only it depends on species and where so it

1752
01:41:28,240 --> 01:41:31,559
Speaker 6: will range. But it's way less than four hundred huh right,

1753
01:41:31,720 --> 01:41:38,200
Speaker 6: way like like more like tens I would think. Yeah,

1754
01:41:38,560 --> 01:41:41,560
Speaker 6: so you got wood on the inside, bark on the outside,

1755
01:41:41,920 --> 01:41:45,040
Speaker 6: and then the wood on the inside keeps adding, and

1756
01:41:45,080 --> 01:41:48,719
Speaker 6: so the innermost portion, which is the pith, the first

1757
01:41:48,800 --> 01:41:50,759
Speaker 6: formed wood on the center of the tree that usually

1758
01:41:50,800 --> 01:41:53,920
Speaker 6: gets crushed and kind of dissolves or whatever. The rest

1759
01:41:53,960 --> 01:41:57,599
Speaker 6: of those wood layers, they just become kind of their

1760
01:41:57,640 --> 01:42:02,360
Speaker 6: structural It's like it's the structure for the photosynthetic apparatus

1761
01:42:02,439 --> 01:42:02,720
Speaker 6: up top.

1762
01:42:03,200 --> 01:42:05,600
Speaker 1: They're live in some way. They're not like hair, like

1763
01:42:05,680 --> 01:42:06,280
Speaker 1: human hair.

1764
01:42:06,400 --> 01:42:10,280
Speaker 6: This is what's great. Most of a tree is dead, really, yeah,

1765
01:42:10,320 --> 01:42:11,559
Speaker 6: so including most of the.

1766
01:42:11,520 --> 01:42:12,920
Speaker 1: Wood, nothing's going on in there.

1767
01:42:13,000 --> 01:42:15,599
Speaker 6: Now I didn't say that it's but it's it's dead.

1768
01:42:15,680 --> 01:42:18,280
Speaker 6: And so that's that heartwood, which is the dead wood

1769
01:42:18,280 --> 01:42:22,799
Speaker 6: on the inside, is still a place where the growing

1770
01:42:22,880 --> 01:42:26,280
Speaker 6: points on the outside they send through. So if you

1771
01:42:26,360 --> 01:42:28,400
Speaker 6: if you look at a stump, sometimes you can see

1772
01:42:28,439 --> 01:42:33,640
Speaker 6: like a like spokes almost like they're called rays, and

1773
01:42:33,720 --> 01:42:36,880
Speaker 6: those are they allow this transport of stuff from the

1774
01:42:37,360 --> 01:42:39,479
Speaker 6: near the bark side of the tree to the center.

1775
01:42:39,520 --> 01:42:41,960
Speaker 6: That's kind of like the dumping ground for waste products.

1776
01:42:42,240 --> 01:42:44,759
Speaker 6: And that's why in your walnut you're speaking of earlier,

1777
01:42:44,920 --> 01:42:47,840
Speaker 6: the prized wood is the dark wood, right, that's a

1778
01:42:47,920 --> 01:42:54,480
Speaker 6: product of phenols, terpenes, other kind of secondary compounds and products,

1779
01:42:54,600 --> 01:42:57,879
Speaker 6: chemicals that get sort of sent there and they discolor

1780
01:42:57,960 --> 01:43:01,519
Speaker 6: the wood. They place some t microbial kind of role,

1781
01:43:01,560 --> 01:43:05,639
Speaker 6: I think anti fungal roll, but they they discolor the wood.

1782
01:43:05,720 --> 01:43:08,760
Speaker 6: And and that's why the value in black walnut is

1783
01:43:09,040 --> 01:43:12,320
Speaker 6: all heartwood, because it has this thin band of relatively white,

1784
01:43:12,560 --> 01:43:16,240
Speaker 6: light colored wood around the outside. That's the most recently

1785
01:43:16,320 --> 01:43:19,880
Speaker 6: laid down, last few years worth of wood. That's still

1786
01:43:20,720 --> 01:43:22,840
Speaker 6: most of the cells there are dead, but there have

1787
01:43:22,920 --> 01:43:25,200
Speaker 6: some live cells within them, and that's the plumbing system,

1788
01:43:25,240 --> 01:43:28,120
Speaker 6: the vascular system of the tree that pumps water from

1789
01:43:28,200 --> 01:43:31,639
Speaker 6: and nutrients from the from the ground up and takes

1790
01:43:31,720 --> 01:43:34,160
Speaker 6: carbohydrates formed by the leaves and sends it to the

1791
01:43:34,280 --> 01:43:38,240
Speaker 6: roots and storage and through the stamato growing points. So

1792
01:43:38,479 --> 01:43:42,599
Speaker 6: that's mostly all happening just inside the bark, just inside

1793
01:43:42,600 --> 01:43:46,080
Speaker 6: the cambium, those the last several years, and it varies

1794
01:43:46,160 --> 01:43:48,840
Speaker 6: widely by species, so I'm generalizing, but it's the last

1795
01:43:48,840 --> 01:43:52,240
Speaker 6: it's the most recent wood near the outside of the tree,

1796
01:43:52,320 --> 01:43:55,160
Speaker 6: but still on the inside of the cambium that is sapwood,

1797
01:43:55,520 --> 01:43:57,320
Speaker 6: and it tends to be light colored, and where all

1798
01:43:57,360 --> 01:44:02,000
Speaker 6: this translocation is going on, and it's the center wood

1799
01:44:02,160 --> 01:44:05,439
Speaker 6: is the heartwood, which is kind of mostly structural. It's

1800
01:44:05,520 --> 01:44:07,680
Speaker 6: just allowing. It's like the telephone poll on which all

1801
01:44:07,680 --> 01:44:10,000
Speaker 6: the living cells just continue to elevate and try to

1802
01:44:10,040 --> 01:44:14,360
Speaker 6: access sunlight and outcompete their neighbors. It has some other

1803
01:44:14,400 --> 01:44:17,000
Speaker 6: stuff going on, as I mentioned, the storage, the discoloration,

1804
01:44:17,479 --> 01:44:21,800
Speaker 6: et cetera. So that's heartwood on the inside, sapwood on

1805
01:44:21,880 --> 01:44:25,760
Speaker 6: the outside of the inside, and then cambium and then

1806
01:44:25,800 --> 01:44:31,920
Speaker 6: bark outside that fat wood is it's not I should

1807
01:44:31,960 --> 01:44:34,880
Speaker 6: just you know, this is a Southern thing. Not my expertise,

1808
01:44:34,920 --> 01:44:39,879
Speaker 6: but my understanding is this is from softwoods, Southern yellow pines,

1809
01:44:40,040 --> 01:44:42,720
Speaker 6: pitch pine, lob lolly shortly, if I think, in particular,

1810
01:44:43,160 --> 01:44:46,000
Speaker 6: which are very big on resins, and in soft woods

1811
01:44:46,040 --> 01:44:48,920
Speaker 6: that's often inside that you know, in these these rays

1812
01:44:48,960 --> 01:44:53,639
Speaker 6: and other places where you have resin ducts that are

1813
01:44:53,800 --> 01:44:58,040
Speaker 6: kind of used to stop infection, keep insects at bay,

1814
01:44:58,120 --> 01:45:01,599
Speaker 6: et cetera, you have these deposits of that stuff which

1815
01:45:01,640 --> 01:45:05,360
Speaker 6: is really combustible, and so you split that kind of softwood,

1816
01:45:05,360 --> 01:45:09,160
Speaker 6: those those those pines that have that are high in

1817
01:45:09,360 --> 01:45:13,519
Speaker 6: those pitch compounds and they become just great kindling. It's

1818
01:45:13,600 --> 01:45:16,240
Speaker 6: dry and it has this extra flammable stuff in it.

1819
01:45:16,760 --> 01:45:18,559
Speaker 1: Where'd you get that big ol'pile that you had.

1820
01:45:20,080 --> 01:45:23,600
Speaker 4: I was suspecting it was from a fur. Well, just

1821
01:45:23,680 --> 01:45:25,559
Speaker 4: gives the shape of the base.

1822
01:45:25,760 --> 01:45:30,200
Speaker 6: So it's interesting about fur. Now, Doug fur is not

1823
01:45:30,240 --> 01:45:34,400
Speaker 6: a true fur. So if it was Douglas in my world,

1824
01:45:34,520 --> 01:45:38,559
Speaker 6: Doug fur is a fury because yeah, right, so it's

1825
01:45:38,600 --> 01:45:42,160
Speaker 6: called pseudo suga menziesia I is the Latin name because

1826
01:45:42,200 --> 01:45:45,320
Speaker 6: it's it's a it's that would be false. Yeah, well

1827
01:45:45,520 --> 01:45:48,200
Speaker 6: there's we could do a whole podcast on really fun names.

1828
01:45:48,760 --> 01:45:51,600
Speaker 6: Latin names they often mean something, right, But anyway, No,

1829
01:45:51,960 --> 01:45:56,080
Speaker 6: Douglas fur is not a true fur. It's not a fur.

1830
01:45:56,520 --> 01:46:02,000
Speaker 6: It's just that's why it's Douglas dash fur. It's a well,

1831
01:46:02,000 --> 01:46:05,280
Speaker 6: it's a false hemlock. It's uh, it's in its own

1832
01:46:05,439 --> 01:46:10,120
Speaker 6: kind of category. And so but all of those so

1833
01:46:10,479 --> 01:46:14,160
Speaker 6: it would have resins in pitch, whereas what do you

1834
01:46:14,200 --> 01:46:17,519
Speaker 6: have white fur, white bark? What's the white white fur?

1835
01:46:17,760 --> 01:46:18,000
Speaker 1: White?

1836
01:46:20,160 --> 01:46:22,920
Speaker 6: That's a pine. So the furs you have like you

1837
01:46:23,720 --> 01:46:30,320
Speaker 6: you have pines. Yeah, those wouldn't have the stuff. They're

1838
01:46:30,360 --> 01:46:33,759
Speaker 6: just owing to the peculiarities of of true fur wood.

1839
01:46:34,080 --> 01:46:38,000
Speaker 4: And then uh, where's where's like Tamarak fall.

1840
01:46:39,600 --> 01:46:44,800
Speaker 6: Another awesome species. Uh, and uh Western larch hyeah another name,

1841
01:46:45,520 --> 01:46:49,360
Speaker 6: it's its own genus. And uh, you know we have

1842
01:46:49,400 --> 01:46:53,759
Speaker 6: an Eastern tamarack, Eastern larch, there's Japanese larch. They're commonly planted,

1843
01:46:54,680 --> 01:46:57,799
Speaker 6: but they all have they're different because they're they're built differently,

1844
01:46:57,880 --> 01:47:03,120
Speaker 6: and they largely the exonomic differentiations based on reproductive parts,

1845
01:47:03,800 --> 01:47:06,679
Speaker 6: and they differ, but does also to translate they bring

1846
01:47:06,720 --> 01:47:10,800
Speaker 6: along other anatomical and physiological differences as well, so they're

1847
01:47:10,840 --> 01:47:14,640
Speaker 6: all kind of different in there grouped. So spruces are

1848
01:47:14,680 --> 01:47:17,960
Speaker 6: different from pines, are different from furs, are different from

1849
01:47:18,200 --> 01:47:22,280
Speaker 6: false furs are different from larches and tamaracks, and the

1850
01:47:22,320 --> 01:47:25,200
Speaker 6: way they it's usually it's for those to tell them

1851
01:47:25,200 --> 01:47:27,240
Speaker 6: apart by the cones that's and then you go from

1852
01:47:27,240 --> 01:47:30,760
Speaker 6: there to other characteristics that we kind of correlate with

1853
01:47:30,800 --> 01:47:34,840
Speaker 6: those differences too, so they all translate into different wood

1854
01:47:34,880 --> 01:47:39,280
Speaker 6: properties that end up being different for structural use, for

1855
01:47:39,280 --> 01:47:43,800
Speaker 6: for visual appeal, and for these ecological differences.

1856
01:47:44,400 --> 01:47:47,639
Speaker 4: For this fat would high of us that we're talking about,

1857
01:47:48,160 --> 01:47:50,960
Speaker 4: because you can light anything on fire with it, right,

1858
01:47:51,080 --> 01:47:56,240
Speaker 4: it's crazy, crazy, flammable. In my experience, it is a tree.

1859
01:47:57,040 --> 01:47:59,639
Speaker 4: Not that I've been around for this entire story, mind you,

1860
01:47:59,840 --> 01:48:02,800
Speaker 4: but it's what I've what I've put together from what

1861
01:48:02,840 --> 01:48:05,840
Speaker 4: I've discovered on the ground, right, is it's a tree

1862
01:48:05,840 --> 01:48:08,679
Speaker 4: that stood for a long time, dead, dead standing tree.

1863
01:48:09,200 --> 01:48:15,559
Speaker 4: All that resin has migrated down and super condensed at

1864
01:48:15,560 --> 01:48:19,080
Speaker 4: the base at the base, and then eventually that tree

1865
01:48:19,120 --> 01:48:23,200
Speaker 4: tips over and then those shards are super easy to

1866
01:48:23,800 --> 01:48:28,519
Speaker 4: harvest in sometimes very large chunks. But they are very,

1867
01:48:28,640 --> 01:48:32,120
Speaker 4: very dance, super heavy, right, And that's that's like if

1868
01:48:32,160 --> 01:48:37,120
Speaker 4: they're it's almost fossilized, like to me, like the really

1869
01:48:37,120 --> 01:48:40,759
Speaker 4: good stuff is it's got almost like a plastic sheen

1870
01:48:40,880 --> 01:48:42,840
Speaker 4: to it. Yes, very dance, very heavy.

1871
01:48:43,240 --> 01:48:46,400
Speaker 6: Yes, you should ask him, Calves all over this? Did

1872
01:48:46,439 --> 01:48:47,720
Speaker 6: I mention I don't know a lot about this?

1873
01:48:48,439 --> 01:48:50,400
Speaker 1: You did a little bit, Yeah, because you put it

1874
01:48:50,400 --> 01:48:52,719
Speaker 1: to another people, you put it to the acre and people.

1875
01:48:52,760 --> 01:48:55,200
Speaker 6: Yeah, exactly. But I and I don't mean to suggest

1876
01:48:55,280 --> 01:48:59,000
Speaker 6: that it doesn't exist in your western conifers. And it

1877
01:48:59,040 --> 01:49:01,559
Speaker 6: sounds like you've experienced that here, cal And that's that's

1878
01:49:01,760 --> 01:49:04,800
Speaker 6: all stands to reason to me, And I can't refute it.

1879
01:49:04,920 --> 01:49:07,920
Speaker 4: My my identification is piss poor like western large.

1880
01:49:08,600 --> 01:49:12,519
Speaker 6: No problem, right, yeah, you probably you've probably got.

1881
01:49:12,439 --> 01:49:15,479
Speaker 4: Cedars, yeah, no problem. Yeah, but I gotta get I

1882
01:49:15,520 --> 01:49:17,240
Speaker 4: gotta get better, gotta spend more time with seth.

1883
01:49:17,400 --> 01:49:19,280
Speaker 6: We can, we can help you with that. Yeah, it's

1884
01:49:19,320 --> 01:49:21,799
Speaker 6: knowable and it's good to know those difference, yes, yeah,

1885
01:49:21,800 --> 01:49:24,920
Speaker 6: for sure, quick side you know. And back in dendro uh,

1886
01:49:25,000 --> 01:49:27,360
Speaker 6: dendrology study of trees. The naming thing, it's kind of

1887
01:49:27,360 --> 01:49:31,000
Speaker 6: basic in a forestry course of study. Right. I was

1888
01:49:31,080 --> 01:49:34,080
Speaker 6: lucky to have a couple of really great professors. Uh.

1889
01:49:34,240 --> 01:49:37,040
Speaker 6: One of them hinto thing. It stuck with me forever.

1890
01:49:37,240 --> 01:49:38,720
Speaker 6: He said, when we go out and lab you know,

1891
01:49:38,720 --> 01:49:40,000
Speaker 6: you do with the lectures, but then you go out

1892
01:49:40,040 --> 01:49:42,200
Speaker 6: and you look at stuff. And he'd said, the last

1893
01:49:42,200 --> 01:49:44,080
Speaker 6: thing I'm going to tell you about this tree is

1894
01:49:44,120 --> 01:49:46,200
Speaker 6: what its name is. I'm going to tell you what

1895
01:49:46,280 --> 01:49:48,759
Speaker 6: it's doing here, how it got here, what it relates

1896
01:49:48,760 --> 01:49:51,679
Speaker 6: to everything else around it, the critters, et cetera. Because

1897
01:49:51,920 --> 01:49:53,800
Speaker 6: you know, that's what matters. And then we give it

1898
01:49:53,800 --> 01:49:56,000
Speaker 6: a name, and that's the handle and the way we

1899
01:49:56,080 --> 01:49:58,200
Speaker 6: speak about it. And I think that was a really

1900
01:49:58,240 --> 01:50:01,479
Speaker 6: important lesson for me and countless others, it's like, this

1901
01:50:01,560 --> 01:50:04,720
Speaker 6: is why I've said similarly, we like to say that,

1902
01:50:05,160 --> 01:50:08,320
Speaker 6: you know, we talk about forest ecology and people kind

1903
01:50:08,320 --> 01:50:11,080
Speaker 6: of well immediately start to get nervous, like that sounds

1904
01:50:11,080 --> 01:50:13,840
Speaker 6: hard or that's going to hurt. I think it's really

1905
01:50:13,840 --> 01:50:16,639
Speaker 6: helpful to think of forests more as a verb than

1906
01:50:16,640 --> 01:50:22,360
Speaker 6: a noun, like forest is like not forested or foresting,

1907
01:50:22,479 --> 01:50:25,400
Speaker 6: but like a forest because it's it's they're just defined

1908
01:50:25,400 --> 01:50:29,360
Speaker 6: by function and we're really connected to it. Even though

1909
01:50:30,040 --> 01:50:32,280
Speaker 6: we've lost that connection in a big way, which is

1910
01:50:32,280 --> 01:50:34,120
Speaker 6: a whole other topic. Maybe we can get to it,

1911
01:50:34,200 --> 01:50:36,200
Speaker 6: but I think it's really helpful to start with what

1912
01:50:36,200 --> 01:50:38,280
Speaker 6: are they doing? And that's what you're all about. You're

1913
01:50:38,320 --> 01:50:40,800
Speaker 6: noticing that out there, and you're probably more tuned into

1914
01:50:40,840 --> 01:50:42,920
Speaker 6: that than the names. You're like, oh, I'm bad at that.

1915
01:50:43,479 --> 01:50:46,120
Speaker 6: But my guess is because of what you do and

1916
01:50:46,200 --> 01:50:48,800
Speaker 6: your passion for spending time out there, you've got all

1917
01:50:48,880 --> 01:50:51,519
Speaker 6: kinds of knowledge about function that you don't even know

1918
01:50:51,560 --> 01:50:54,559
Speaker 6: about that you're just putting together. And that's what's really cool.

1919
01:50:54,800 --> 01:50:56,280
Speaker 6: I think about the woods, there's a lot of that

1920
01:50:56,360 --> 01:50:56,760
Speaker 6: going on.

1921
01:50:56,960 --> 01:50:58,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, what's eating that?

1922
01:50:58,360 --> 01:50:58,599
Speaker 6: Yeah?

1923
01:50:58,640 --> 01:51:00,240
Speaker 1: Exactly, what's whatever?

1924
01:51:00,280 --> 01:51:01,639
Speaker 4: Reason something likes to sleep there.

1925
01:51:01,840 --> 01:51:05,800
Speaker 6: Yeah, what sort of dude with the musket is camped

1926
01:51:05,840 --> 01:51:10,800
Speaker 6: out inside there? But I just I offer that as

1927
01:51:10,920 --> 01:51:13,280
Speaker 6: kind of a helpful kind of premises. Think about them

1928
01:51:13,280 --> 01:51:17,400
Speaker 6: more as functional and connected. And when we the more

1929
01:51:17,439 --> 01:51:19,320
Speaker 6: and better we do that, the more and better pretty

1930
01:51:19,360 --> 01:51:21,760
Speaker 6: much everything else will be about our relationship with for us.

1931
01:51:21,760 --> 01:51:24,360
Speaker 4: Oh, it's so yeah, you're you're so spot on, because

1932
01:51:24,520 --> 01:51:26,320
Speaker 4: like you know, I can run through like a field

1933
01:51:26,320 --> 01:51:30,920
Speaker 4: of wild flowers and name a handful, but when whoever

1934
01:51:30,960 --> 01:51:36,320
Speaker 4: I'm hiking with, when I'm like and that's larkspur poisonous

1935
01:51:36,360 --> 01:51:39,640
Speaker 4: to cattle, They're like, holy shit, yeah, exactly.

1936
01:51:41,000 --> 01:51:41,520
Speaker 6: Exactly.

1937
01:51:44,920 --> 01:51:46,880
Speaker 1: You remember how we had that conversation about how some

1938
01:51:46,880 --> 01:51:50,040
Speaker 1: stuff just is. Yeah, right, I think that maybe Ghoul

1939
01:51:50,200 --> 01:51:52,360
Speaker 1: or one of those guys even called with that just

1940
01:51:52,680 --> 01:52:00,240
Speaker 1: stuff that is it seems like paper birches being white

1941
01:52:00,840 --> 01:52:01,840
Speaker 1: maybe isn't just is?

1942
01:52:02,720 --> 01:52:06,280
Speaker 6: You're right, what's with that? I mean, they so stand

1943
01:52:06,320 --> 01:52:08,800
Speaker 6: out and everything's kind of green and brown, and then

1944
01:52:08,800 --> 01:52:12,439
Speaker 6: they're there, they are being all super white, and uh,

1945
01:52:12,479 --> 01:52:15,679
Speaker 6: where do they get off? Yeah? So, uh, the thinking

1946
01:52:15,720 --> 01:52:19,599
Speaker 6: here is that this one may maybe just no reason

1947
01:52:19,600 --> 01:52:20,320
Speaker 6: for it to go away.

1948
01:52:20,920 --> 01:52:23,320
Speaker 1: But there's a compelling case.

1949
01:52:23,400 --> 01:52:26,479
Speaker 6: There's a really compelling case that has been made that

1950
01:52:26,760 --> 01:52:29,759
Speaker 6: this is about where they live. Think about paper birch.

1951
01:52:29,760 --> 01:52:33,800
Speaker 6: It's transcontinental, it's circumpolar. It's one of those tree species

1952
01:52:33,800 --> 01:52:37,200
Speaker 6: that exists all around the North Country.

1953
01:52:37,280 --> 01:52:40,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a band of latitudes, and no matter where

1954
01:52:40,200 --> 01:52:42,320
Speaker 1: you go on the planet, at that band of latitudes,

1955
01:52:42,320 --> 01:52:43,080
Speaker 1: you'll find that tree.

1956
01:52:43,200 --> 01:52:46,280
Speaker 6: Yes, and that latitude tends to be what in a

1957
01:52:46,320 --> 01:52:47,080
Speaker 6: general way.

1958
01:52:47,439 --> 01:52:50,200
Speaker 1: Around the fifties, well cold, Okay.

1959
01:52:50,479 --> 01:52:52,840
Speaker 6: Let's about the latitude, but the condition's there, right and uh,

1960
01:52:53,360 --> 01:52:56,440
Speaker 6: And so the short answer here is it's been positive

1961
01:52:56,520 --> 01:52:59,519
Speaker 6: that that. And it's true for other associates. You caught

1962
01:52:59,560 --> 01:53:03,599
Speaker 6: your asss here at higher elevations. They're kind of light barked, too,

1963
01:53:04,200 --> 01:53:08,160
Speaker 6: thin and light barked. Is uh suggested to be a

1964
01:53:08,200 --> 01:53:12,880
Speaker 6: mechanism to reflect solar radiation? Why would a tree ever

1965
01:53:12,920 --> 01:53:19,200
Speaker 6: want to push away? You say, it's thin and white,

1966
01:53:19,520 --> 01:53:22,080
Speaker 6: and this is to keep them from heating up in

1967
01:53:22,160 --> 01:53:23,719
Speaker 6: winter with solar radiation.

1968
01:53:23,920 --> 01:53:26,519
Speaker 1: It's like the opposite of what you think, right, But you.

1969
01:53:26,479 --> 01:53:29,760
Speaker 6: Know, I was just recently saw a piece of a

1970
01:53:29,800 --> 01:53:32,080
Speaker 6: black piece of paper on a wall and a white

1971
01:53:32,080 --> 01:53:34,240
Speaker 6: piece of paper next to it and said, you know,

1972
01:53:34,280 --> 01:53:35,600
Speaker 6: on a sunny day, go ahead and touch it. And

1973
01:53:35,600 --> 01:53:37,599
Speaker 6: you put your hand on the black, it's hot. Put

1974
01:53:37,600 --> 01:53:39,680
Speaker 6: your hand on the white, it's cool. And so like

1975
01:53:39,720 --> 01:53:41,640
Speaker 6: it really makes a difference. Why does this matter to

1976
01:53:41,680 --> 01:53:46,280
Speaker 6: the paper birch tree? Uh? In the winter in those

1977
01:53:46,280 --> 01:53:49,519
Speaker 6: cold climates, you don't want to they have there's green

1978
01:53:49,600 --> 01:53:52,840
Speaker 6: living cells tissue underneath that bark, and they're ready to

1979
01:53:52,920 --> 01:53:55,960
Speaker 6: rip if if the conditions are right. You don't want

1980
01:53:55,960 --> 01:53:58,960
Speaker 6: to warm up and then be like, oh, let's let's

1981
01:53:59,080 --> 01:54:02,080
Speaker 6: start some cellular activity here and then have right and

1982
01:54:02,080 --> 01:54:04,479
Speaker 6: then have a cloud move over and then it's back

1983
01:54:04,520 --> 01:54:08,559
Speaker 6: to you know, fifteen degrees and those cells die. So

1984
01:54:08,640 --> 01:54:12,280
Speaker 6: this is presumed to have evolved as a mechanism to

1985
01:54:12,360 --> 01:54:15,160
Speaker 6: allow them to live in these super cold environments and

1986
01:54:15,240 --> 01:54:18,439
Speaker 6: not turn on growth when it gets a little warm

1987
01:54:18,479 --> 01:54:20,680
Speaker 6: on the stem because the sun is hitting it for

1988
01:54:20,720 --> 01:54:24,879
Speaker 6: a while, which happens, so it's reflecting away that incoming

1989
01:54:24,920 --> 01:54:28,400
Speaker 6: solar radiation in the winter to avoid that damage that

1990
01:54:28,439 --> 01:54:31,599
Speaker 6: would ensue if they tried to get going.

1991
01:54:32,000 --> 01:54:36,040
Speaker 1: And what backs it up is you look at other

1992
01:54:37,720 --> 01:54:43,560
Speaker 1: northern deciduous trees and you start seeing that yeah, like

1993
01:54:43,600 --> 01:54:44,800
Speaker 1: they all get a little lighter.

1994
01:54:44,920 --> 01:54:46,880
Speaker 6: Yeah, they tend to exactly like.

1995
01:54:47,000 --> 01:54:50,200
Speaker 1: You get alders that have You get alders that are

1996
01:54:50,240 --> 01:54:55,520
Speaker 1: like not quite as dark aspens a northerly tree not white,

1997
01:54:55,600 --> 01:54:57,240
Speaker 1: but definitely not dark.

1998
01:54:57,120 --> 01:55:01,080
Speaker 6: Lighter exactly, whereas lower latitudes the propondence or trees have

1999
01:55:01,320 --> 01:55:04,080
Speaker 6: dark bark. Because maybe just the opposite. It's kind of

2000
01:55:04,120 --> 01:55:06,480
Speaker 6: good to get to stay warm when it's kind of

2001
01:55:06,480 --> 01:55:08,800
Speaker 6: cool out. You can heat it, you can warm up

2002
01:55:09,320 --> 01:55:12,520
Speaker 6: and you know, optimize your sort of metabolism and other

2003
01:55:12,600 --> 01:55:16,600
Speaker 6: physiological activity in in one a cool day because you're

2004
01:55:16,640 --> 01:55:19,360
Speaker 6: you're actually able to absorb a little warmth more warmth

2005
01:55:19,400 --> 01:55:19,880
Speaker 6: from the sun.

2006
01:55:20,720 --> 01:55:22,440
Speaker 1: Got one more for it, And I think Crane might

2007
01:55:22,480 --> 01:55:27,840
Speaker 1: have one. You know how old guns like you know,

2008
01:55:27,880 --> 01:55:30,440
Speaker 1: Clay was just Clay has got to see speaking acorns.

2009
01:55:30,960 --> 01:55:37,240
Speaker 1: Clay has got to see davy crockets, actual gun Betsy, Uh,

2010
01:55:38,160 --> 01:55:43,440
Speaker 1: what's that where some family owns it? Okay, you're talking

2011
01:55:43,480 --> 01:55:47,800
Speaker 1: about curly maple? Is curly and birds eye maple the

2012
01:55:47,800 --> 01:55:48,200
Speaker 1: same thing?

2013
01:55:48,280 --> 01:55:51,760
Speaker 6: Or no? No, not not as I understand that it's

2014
01:55:51,880 --> 01:55:55,800
Speaker 6: very similar as this, you know, particular grain pattern in

2015
01:55:55,840 --> 01:56:01,240
Speaker 6: the wood of particularly maples, sugar maple, hard maple where

2016
01:56:01,400 --> 01:56:07,240
Speaker 6: you get this tiger curly. Uh, is this wavelike pattern

2017
01:56:07,520 --> 01:56:11,280
Speaker 6: in certain views of the wood. That's just you know,

2018
01:56:11,320 --> 01:56:13,680
Speaker 6: it's just cool. It's favored, it's highly prized, and.

2019
01:56:14,000 --> 01:56:16,960
Speaker 1: It doesn't they'd like it for guns because it doesn't split.

2020
01:56:17,160 --> 01:56:20,160
Speaker 6: It's dense. It's right, it's not uniform in the direction

2021
01:56:20,480 --> 01:56:23,080
Speaker 6: of the grain. It's not all like, and so that

2022
01:56:23,120 --> 01:56:24,840
Speaker 6: would make it much harder to split. It's like a

2023
01:56:24,840 --> 01:56:28,880
Speaker 6: burrel that's kind of like almost like cells growing out

2024
01:56:28,920 --> 01:56:29,360
Speaker 6: of control.

2025
01:56:29,560 --> 01:56:31,800
Speaker 1: His references are genuine buck bowed and burl.

2026
01:56:31,760 --> 01:56:36,400
Speaker 6: Exactly, uh, which is beautiful and uh, that's that's like.

2027
01:56:36,760 --> 01:56:39,880
Speaker 1: He'll spot those from his airplane now and then nice,

2028
01:56:39,960 --> 01:56:41,800
Speaker 1: he'll spot a good one of them's airplane. You can

2029
01:56:41,840 --> 01:56:42,680
Speaker 1: go find it later.

2030
01:56:42,760 --> 01:56:44,840
Speaker 6: But it's important for your listeners to know the bulls

2031
01:56:44,880 --> 01:56:53,680
Speaker 6: don't grow on those trees. The burls doing there. So uh,

2032
01:56:53,760 --> 01:56:58,120
Speaker 6: you know that's so that's this you know, atypical Uh,

2033
01:56:58,240 --> 01:57:03,640
Speaker 6: cellular division in growth atypical with particular respect to direction

2034
01:57:03,920 --> 01:57:07,840
Speaker 6: of how it grows. And you get these funky growth

2035
01:57:07,840 --> 01:57:11,480
Speaker 6: patterns that are beautiful and they're really hard to split

2036
01:57:11,520 --> 01:57:16,320
Speaker 6: because it's kind of it's denser, probably, right, and so

2037
01:57:18,320 --> 01:57:21,200
Speaker 6: I write about here bird's eye, which is a particular

2038
01:57:21,440 --> 01:57:26,360
Speaker 6: type yet again of figure you might even say disfigure

2039
01:57:26,480 --> 01:57:27,360
Speaker 6: in maple wood.

2040
01:57:27,400 --> 01:57:31,600
Speaker 1: That's not a kind of maple, Like it's not a

2041
01:57:31,680 --> 01:57:34,600
Speaker 1: kind of maple in any maple or no, it tends

2042
01:57:34,640 --> 01:57:35,000
Speaker 1: to be.

2043
01:57:35,120 --> 01:57:38,440
Speaker 6: I think it's really limited to sugar maple. Let see,

2044
01:57:39,120 --> 01:57:40,640
Speaker 6: I don't know that I've ever seen or heard of

2045
01:57:40,640 --> 01:57:42,400
Speaker 6: it in a red maple or a silver maple. For

2046
01:57:43,440 --> 01:57:48,680
Speaker 6: But so it's this odd growth in terms of wood development,

2047
01:57:49,360 --> 01:57:54,280
Speaker 6: uh that it results in these little that little figures

2048
01:57:54,320 --> 01:57:56,400
Speaker 6: that look like bird's eyes. That's why it's called bird's eye.

2049
01:57:56,400 --> 01:57:59,120
Speaker 6: And when you have like a like a spray of

2050
01:57:59,160 --> 01:58:02,880
Speaker 6: them across a surface, it's quite beautiful and striking. And

2051
01:58:02,960 --> 01:58:05,720
Speaker 6: there's legend about you know which trees have the bird's

2052
01:58:05,720 --> 01:58:08,920
Speaker 6: eye in it, because you know it commands a premium price.

2053
01:58:08,960 --> 01:58:12,160
Speaker 6: When you sell a tree, a log that has bird's eye,

2054
01:58:12,160 --> 01:58:13,800
Speaker 6: you're gonna pull that and put in a different pile.

2055
01:58:13,960 --> 01:58:16,640
Speaker 6: And you know you're gonna put your veneer sort, your

2056
01:58:16,640 --> 01:58:19,920
Speaker 6: bird's eye sort, your firewood sort, your regular so sort,

2057
01:58:19,960 --> 01:58:24,160
Speaker 6: you know, and you're gonna market those differently. And this

2058
01:58:24,200 --> 01:58:26,560
Speaker 6: is the highest And there's little of it, so that

2059
01:58:27,120 --> 01:58:29,920
Speaker 6: accordingly there was this this this great you know, there's

2060
01:58:29,960 --> 01:58:32,720
Speaker 6: traditions of you know, I knew one landowner once he

2061
01:58:32,800 --> 01:58:36,360
Speaker 6: was convinced Canadians from Quebec were coming down marauding and

2062
01:58:36,360 --> 01:58:40,320
Speaker 6: stealing his his his uh with machetes were hacking away

2063
01:58:40,360 --> 01:58:42,720
Speaker 6: to look at the base of trees to look for

2064
01:58:42,920 --> 01:58:44,080
Speaker 6: evidence of bird's eye.

2065
01:58:44,600 --> 01:58:45,200
Speaker 1: Canadians.

2066
01:58:45,360 --> 01:58:46,520
Speaker 6: That's the Canadians, you know.

2067
01:58:46,960 --> 01:58:49,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it'll surprising one bit.

2068
01:58:49,600 --> 01:58:52,600
Speaker 4: No, everybody knows a Canadian and a hand.

2069
01:58:53,520 --> 01:58:57,280
Speaker 6: I mean, I don't think George was really accurate on

2070
01:58:57,280 --> 01:58:58,800
Speaker 6: that one. But you know, this is the kind of

2071
01:58:58,840 --> 01:58:59,400
Speaker 6: lure and the.

2072
01:58:59,360 --> 01:59:01,760
Speaker 1: Things that that till tale hack mark.

2073
01:59:03,960 --> 01:59:08,320
Speaker 6: I had one forester who helped me. We were looking

2074
01:59:08,360 --> 01:59:11,440
Speaker 6: and and he he's convinced that there's this like coke bottle,

2075
01:59:12,040 --> 01:59:14,800
Speaker 6: the old fashioned coke bottom coke bottle that at the

2076
01:59:14,800 --> 01:59:17,600
Speaker 6: bottom it's one diameter, but then it tapers and then

2077
01:59:17,600 --> 01:59:19,920
Speaker 6: it comes back up again. And then he would see

2078
01:59:20,040 --> 01:59:23,160
Speaker 6: that in certain sugar maple stems near the base and

2079
01:59:23,160 --> 01:59:26,040
Speaker 6: he'd say, oh, let's look at that, and he he

2080
01:59:26,160 --> 01:59:29,200
Speaker 6: has a correlation there, and yeah, and he's looking for

2081
01:59:29,240 --> 01:59:32,440
Speaker 6: bird's eye. Yeah, and everyone's got their way of doing it,

2082
01:59:32,520 --> 01:59:36,960
Speaker 6: you know, and it's a really low percentage of the

2083
01:59:37,000 --> 01:59:39,760
Speaker 6: trees that have it. It is it's not really well

2084
01:59:39,840 --> 01:59:43,040
Speaker 6: understood why, but it basically comes from any kind of

2085
01:59:43,080 --> 01:59:45,720
Speaker 6: a ding in the tree that can it's an injury.

2086
01:59:45,720 --> 01:59:47,520
Speaker 6: It could be could be a bird pack, it could

2087
01:59:47,560 --> 01:59:51,960
Speaker 6: be somebody getting crazy with their lawnmower, you know, whacking it,

2088
01:59:52,120 --> 01:59:56,360
Speaker 6: uh uh, or any number of things that go wrong

2089
01:59:56,400 --> 01:59:58,600
Speaker 6: out there that can in the young life of a

2090
01:59:58,640 --> 02:00:01,400
Speaker 6: tree can ding it and then that little the wound

2091
02:00:01,480 --> 02:00:05,160
Speaker 6: response that trees have can result in this in this

2092
02:00:05,320 --> 02:00:08,640
Speaker 6: particular case of like this this odd, gross pattern that

2093
02:00:08,680 --> 02:00:12,520
Speaker 6: then results in you know, ironically enough, highly valuable wood

2094
02:00:12,600 --> 02:00:13,720
Speaker 6: that was from damage.

2095
02:00:14,200 --> 02:00:16,360
Speaker 1: When that when that term first caught my interest, I

2096
02:00:16,400 --> 02:00:19,240
Speaker 1: was reading something in the Great Lakes region about what

2097
02:00:19,480 --> 02:00:24,280
Speaker 1: was floated down a river and it named species of trees,

2098
02:00:25,040 --> 02:00:27,000
Speaker 1: but then included in the list was that they would

2099
02:00:27,040 --> 02:00:30,480
Speaker 1: float birds, eye maple down the river, and I thought

2100
02:00:30,520 --> 02:00:33,920
Speaker 1: it was peculiar that they were like grading it, right,

2101
02:00:34,560 --> 02:00:38,000
Speaker 1: And then someone took note of that that that specifically

2102
02:00:38,120 --> 02:00:40,040
Speaker 1: is what they're sending down the river, right, because it's

2103
02:00:40,240 --> 02:00:42,040
Speaker 1: no you know, maybe maybe it was what maybe that's

2104
02:00:42,040 --> 02:00:43,640
Speaker 1: too dense to float, and they wouldn't send it down

2105
02:00:43,680 --> 02:00:45,400
Speaker 1: the river, but they were like sledging it out whatever

2106
02:00:45,440 --> 02:00:47,160
Speaker 1: the hell it was. It was like it was like

2107
02:00:47,400 --> 02:00:52,000
Speaker 1: white pine or whatever, white pine, oak, birds eye, maple, right, you.

2108
02:00:51,960 --> 02:00:55,160
Speaker 6: Know, and that's to be you know, that's reflecting. It's

2109
02:00:55,400 --> 02:00:59,600
Speaker 6: its economic value. That's like way more than your garden

2110
02:00:59,680 --> 02:01:01,000
Speaker 6: variety saw timber.

2111
02:01:01,240 --> 02:01:03,560
Speaker 4: I got a real broad question for it, and we

2112
02:01:03,600 --> 02:01:05,520
Speaker 4: can skip it if you don't want to tackle it.

2113
02:01:05,600 --> 02:01:08,960
Speaker 4: But do you have anything you want to say about fire?

2114
02:01:09,320 --> 02:01:13,920
Speaker 4: Like I'm just interested in regards like how we do

2115
02:01:14,040 --> 02:01:16,760
Speaker 4: with fire in the US right now, in regards to

2116
02:01:16,800 --> 02:01:17,560
Speaker 4: our forests.

2117
02:01:17,640 --> 02:01:19,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, there's a lot here and I'm happy to speak

2118
02:01:19,560 --> 02:01:22,320
Speaker 6: to it. Recognizing as a caveat right, I'm from the

2119
02:01:22,360 --> 02:01:26,960
Speaker 6: northeast said to be the asbestos forest. I'll quickly point

2120
02:01:27,000 --> 02:01:29,720
Speaker 6: out that, like I think asbestos burns, it just burns

2121
02:01:30,080 --> 02:01:34,200
Speaker 6: at really particular conditions. So we have in from Moht

2122
02:01:34,200 --> 02:01:36,520
Speaker 6: we had like we have like four hundred acres of

2123
02:01:36,880 --> 02:01:39,960
Speaker 6: like wildfire a year, mostly brush burners getting out of

2124
02:01:40,000 --> 02:01:42,640
Speaker 6: control at the wrong time. Yere, it's after snow melt,

2125
02:01:42,680 --> 02:01:45,440
Speaker 6: before leaf out. So the point is we don't have

2126
02:01:45,880 --> 02:01:48,320
Speaker 6: these days great incidents of wildland fire. We had a

2127
02:01:48,360 --> 02:01:50,680
Speaker 6: history of it. There's whole paper bird stands in the

2128
02:01:50,680 --> 02:01:55,879
Speaker 6: Green Mountains that were originated in the early nineteen hundreds

2129
02:01:55,880 --> 02:01:59,000
Speaker 6: with railroads and lack of spark arrestors and a different

2130
02:01:59,000 --> 02:02:01,080
Speaker 6: forest type without a lot of spruce slash on the

2131
02:02:01,080 --> 02:02:02,800
Speaker 6: ground and how they found it. So we have a

2132
02:02:02,920 --> 02:02:07,680
Speaker 6: history of fire, but it's really been very wet relatively speaking,

2133
02:02:07,720 --> 02:02:11,200
Speaker 6: and it's known as the asbestos force, whereas out here

2134
02:02:11,400 --> 02:02:13,120
Speaker 6: it's a big deal and it has been for some time.

2135
02:02:13,160 --> 02:02:14,880
Speaker 6: And I think it was kind of well said that

2136
02:02:14,920 --> 02:02:17,760
Speaker 6: somebody I heard say, like smoky light a little bit,

2137
02:02:17,840 --> 02:02:21,320
Speaker 6: you know, like fire is a part of these ecosystems.

2138
02:02:21,360 --> 02:02:25,400
Speaker 6: There are certain species that what we call serotinous cones.

2139
02:02:25,480 --> 02:02:27,760
Speaker 6: They need the heat of fire to open as an

2140
02:02:27,760 --> 02:02:30,320
Speaker 6: adaptive strategy to shoot their seeds out and land in

2141
02:02:30,320 --> 02:02:33,240
Speaker 6: that seed bed that's been prepared by fire. You mentioned

2142
02:02:33,240 --> 02:02:36,280
Speaker 6: the thick bark, say a giant sequoia. It's fire adapted,

2143
02:02:36,320 --> 02:02:40,040
Speaker 6: and so fire is part of the ecosystem. We've done

2144
02:02:40,080 --> 02:02:44,360
Speaker 6: an incredibly good job of eliminating it to the detriment

2145
02:02:44,480 --> 02:02:47,440
Speaker 6: of the ecological kind of functioning. And now we have

2146
02:02:48,160 --> 02:02:52,000
Speaker 6: monocultures and we have the clear cut and plant and

2147
02:02:52,480 --> 02:02:54,800
Speaker 6: keep fire out. And this is just a recipe for

2148
02:02:55,000 --> 02:02:58,080
Speaker 6: disaster and you're seeing it now and now it's exacerbated

2149
02:02:58,080 --> 02:03:03,560
Speaker 6: by climate change. Mountain pine bead and this is this

2150
02:03:03,800 --> 02:03:08,400
Speaker 6: perfect storm. And again I should say, you know, remember

2151
02:03:08,440 --> 02:03:13,080
Speaker 6: I'm from the Northeast. Uh, you know, I don't. I

2152
02:03:13,120 --> 02:03:15,480
Speaker 6: don't live it. And there's a lot here, as you're

2153
02:03:15,520 --> 02:03:19,040
Speaker 6: all well aware, and it's very intense. But I think

2154
02:03:19,080 --> 02:03:21,640
Speaker 6: for me, I'm willing to say we have a problem

2155
02:03:21,840 --> 02:03:24,880
Speaker 6: in having excluded fire for so long that now we

2156
02:03:24,960 --> 02:03:27,920
Speaker 6: have a whole new approaches to fuels management, fuel load

2157
02:03:28,000 --> 02:03:32,040
Speaker 6: reduction that's going to require, you know, people getting involved

2158
02:03:32,040 --> 02:03:36,120
Speaker 6: and actually doing stuff and thinking differently about fire. We

2159
02:03:36,200 --> 02:03:40,080
Speaker 6: do use controlled burn prescribe fire in certain natural community

2160
02:03:40,080 --> 02:03:42,600
Speaker 6: types in the Northeast because they've evolved with it. Pitch

2161
02:03:42,640 --> 02:03:45,960
Speaker 6: pine sandplane communities for example, need that fire. And we

2162
02:03:46,040 --> 02:03:48,640
Speaker 6: go out and set fires and it's really not popular

2163
02:03:48,680 --> 02:03:51,200
Speaker 6: with the neighbors, you know, with smoke and everything else

2164
02:03:51,320 --> 02:03:55,640
Speaker 6: is dangerous and it's really carefully controlled. So there needs

2165
02:03:55,680 --> 02:03:58,880
Speaker 6: to there's a role for fire naturally and now because

2166
02:03:58,880 --> 02:04:05,280
Speaker 6: everything's so unnatural over you know, decades, centuries really or

2167
02:04:05,320 --> 02:04:08,120
Speaker 6: at least a century. We're we're in a position where

2168
02:04:08,400 --> 02:04:11,960
Speaker 6: we're vulnerable and it's kind of meeting up with these

2169
02:04:11,960 --> 02:04:16,120
Speaker 6: other forces climate change, drought, et cetera that are exacerbating it.

2170
02:04:16,240 --> 02:04:20,520
Speaker 6: And it means intervention is called for and new approaches

2171
02:04:20,560 --> 02:04:25,000
Speaker 6: to forest management that think differently about wildland fire. And

2172
02:04:25,040 --> 02:04:26,680
Speaker 6: now we have more and more people living in that

2173
02:04:27,200 --> 02:04:32,720
Speaker 6: urban wildland fire interface, right and you know, fire wise communities,

2174
02:04:32,760 --> 02:04:36,080
Speaker 6: like we've we've had to shift a lot of things

2175
02:04:36,080 --> 02:04:38,480
Speaker 6: because of it. I don't know, there's there's a lot here.

2176
02:04:38,640 --> 02:04:43,040
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, and uh and I think it's easy to say,

2177
02:04:43,200 --> 02:04:45,200
Speaker 6: you know, kind of like we need more fire, but

2178
02:04:45,440 --> 02:04:48,760
Speaker 6: not if you live there. I mean, it's people's homes, livelihoods.

2179
02:04:48,960 --> 02:04:52,280
Speaker 6: It's it's a it's a hot mess really in a

2180
02:04:52,320 --> 02:04:54,960
Speaker 6: lot of ways. But even ecologically, I think there's a

2181
02:04:55,000 --> 02:04:57,240
Speaker 6: case it's made that we got to get this right,

2182
02:04:57,360 --> 02:04:59,880
Speaker 6: and we were a long way from being right there.

2183
02:05:00,120 --> 02:05:02,840
Speaker 1: Now you ever feel bad for a tree sawing into it?

2184
02:05:03,640 --> 02:05:06,520
Speaker 6: No, you know, honestly, And I'm really glad you asked,

2185
02:05:06,520 --> 02:05:09,560
Speaker 6: because all these things are balance and balance is a

2186
02:05:09,560 --> 02:05:12,000
Speaker 6: poor word. It's it's no balance when humans are involved.

2187
02:05:12,040 --> 02:05:15,480
Speaker 6: We have a incredible footprint on this planet. We ask

2188
02:05:15,560 --> 02:05:18,440
Speaker 6: a lot of these forests. And that's that's a big

2189
02:05:18,480 --> 02:05:21,120
Speaker 6: thing for me, is just that we are so disconnected

2190
02:05:21,160 --> 02:05:24,240
Speaker 6: generally as a as a culture from our daily consumption

2191
02:05:24,280 --> 02:05:26,240
Speaker 6: of wood products. You know, we're really into things like

2192
02:05:26,280 --> 02:05:30,080
Speaker 6: the burrow bowl and that don't hurt tree, you know,

2193
02:05:30,200 --> 02:05:34,200
Speaker 6: but but we use an awful lot of woods, do

2194
02:05:34,320 --> 02:05:39,280
Speaker 6: I get? I will tell you that when I when I,

2195
02:05:39,600 --> 02:05:41,000
Speaker 6: you know, cut a tree and you put a saw

2196
02:05:41,040 --> 02:05:43,040
Speaker 6: into a tree, I think about it. I'm like, and

2197
02:05:43,320 --> 02:05:45,120
Speaker 6: when I'm out there with the paint gun marking trees

2198
02:05:45,120 --> 02:05:47,000
Speaker 6: for harvest, I'm like, really, what am I going to

2199
02:05:47,080 --> 02:05:47,920
Speaker 6: make this place better?

2200
02:05:48,000 --> 02:05:48,280
Speaker 3: Really?

2201
02:05:48,720 --> 02:05:50,880
Speaker 6: And then so I think the premise for me is

2202
02:05:51,280 --> 02:05:54,920
Speaker 6: forests don't need us, but we really need them. In

2203
02:05:54,960 --> 02:05:59,120
Speaker 6: the in the history of people, there's never been a

2204
02:05:59,160 --> 02:06:04,920
Speaker 6: time when people weren't utterly dependent on wood for shelter, fuel, tools.

2205
02:06:05,040 --> 02:06:08,760
Speaker 6: You know, where's the evidence that it's ever going to change.

2206
02:06:08,880 --> 02:06:11,320
Speaker 6: In fact, we're moving back to wood from plastics and

2207
02:06:11,440 --> 02:06:15,880
Speaker 6: all kinds of cellulostic applications that basically anything made from

2208
02:06:15,880 --> 02:06:19,600
Speaker 6: plastic was once or could be made from wood, which

2209
02:06:19,640 --> 02:06:22,160
Speaker 6: is renewable if you do it right. It's not automatic.

2210
02:06:22,440 --> 02:06:24,480
Speaker 6: So we have to look at our just acknowledge our

2211
02:06:24,520 --> 02:06:26,760
Speaker 6: consumption of wood, and then we have to probably dial

2212
02:06:26,800 --> 02:06:28,560
Speaker 6: it back a little bit, and then we need to

2213
02:06:28,560 --> 02:06:30,800
Speaker 6: think about a new relationship with the land and how

2214
02:06:30,840 --> 02:06:34,360
Speaker 6: we obtain our wood and do it differently so that

2215
02:06:34,560 --> 02:06:36,520
Speaker 6: it and I think it's really possible. And that's what

2216
02:06:36,640 --> 02:06:39,760
Speaker 6: really excites me and keeps me going is and to

2217
02:06:39,840 --> 02:06:43,200
Speaker 6: somewhat to some extent a proselytizer, I suppose about an

2218
02:06:43,280 --> 02:06:47,080
Speaker 6: ecological forestry that is available to us now, and that

2219
02:06:47,160 --> 02:06:50,480
Speaker 6: can that's honest in that it meets our needs. And

2220
02:06:50,560 --> 02:06:53,720
Speaker 6: so every article I've read, we discussed this a bit, Kren.

2221
02:06:53,840 --> 02:06:56,400
Speaker 6: They go on about, well we need trees and the

2222
02:06:56,400 --> 02:07:00,080
Speaker 6: biodiversity crisis and the climate crisis. It's all true, but

2223
02:07:00,720 --> 02:07:02,720
Speaker 6: every one of them, I don't know that. I don't

2224
02:07:02,760 --> 02:07:05,120
Speaker 6: know that I've ever seen one that that that didn't

2225
02:07:05,160 --> 02:07:09,680
Speaker 6: stop short of saying, yeah, it's because of us, like

2226
02:07:09,720 --> 02:07:13,320
Speaker 6: we So I'm seeing documentaries that say it's because we're

2227
02:07:13,320 --> 02:07:15,040
Speaker 6: we're cutting these trees down and turning them into two

2228
02:07:15,080 --> 02:07:17,480
Speaker 6: by fours, and they stopped there, as if we're just

2229
02:07:17,520 --> 02:07:19,680
Speaker 6: doing that for a joy ride. We're putting them into

2230
02:07:19,680 --> 02:07:23,560
Speaker 6: two by fours because people are we need human habitat too, right,

2231
02:07:24,040 --> 02:07:26,680
Speaker 6: And so what's the deal here? We got to get

2232
02:07:26,720 --> 02:07:30,880
Speaker 6: past this very convenient Uh. The answer trees are we've

2233
02:07:31,720 --> 02:07:34,320
Speaker 6: we've The pandemic showed us how important it is for

2234
02:07:34,360 --> 02:07:37,840
Speaker 6: people to get outside historic spikes in outdoor recreation. That's

2235
02:07:37,880 --> 02:07:39,880
Speaker 6: really good. It puts pressure on certain places, but it's

2236
02:07:39,920 --> 02:07:43,480
Speaker 6: really good. It also showed us that is the pandemic

2237
02:07:43,480 --> 02:07:46,000
Speaker 6: showed us this how vulnerable we are in this global

2238
02:07:46,000 --> 02:07:51,480
Speaker 6: supply chain of wood products. In Vermont, in the immediate shutdown, forestry,

2239
02:07:51,680 --> 02:07:55,840
Speaker 6: logging and manufacturing wood products was not considered essential, and

2240
02:07:55,960 --> 02:07:59,200
Speaker 6: as Commissioner and the Deputy Commissioner and I our phones

2241
02:07:59,200 --> 02:08:00,960
Speaker 6: were ringing off the hook for about a twenty four

2242
02:08:00,960 --> 02:08:03,120
Speaker 6: hour periocing, you gotta be kidney. We have hospitals that

2243
02:08:03,160 --> 02:08:05,440
Speaker 6: are heated with wood. A third of from our school

2244
02:08:05,520 --> 02:08:08,600
Speaker 6: children go to schools heated by wood. All the Amazon

2245
02:08:08,640 --> 02:08:12,720
Speaker 6: packaging it comes from trees, man tongue depressors, it swabs,

2246
02:08:12,720 --> 02:08:14,800
Speaker 6: and all this medical supplies that were made from wood

2247
02:08:15,400 --> 02:08:17,800
Speaker 6: that were needed now in a big way in the pandemic.

2248
02:08:17,840 --> 02:08:21,120
Speaker 6: And yet we weren't be so two things, the pandemic

2249
02:08:21,200 --> 02:08:23,600
Speaker 6: for its shining a light on the importance of people

2250
02:08:23,600 --> 02:08:27,640
Speaker 6: getting outside and connecting with nature. And it's shone a

2251
02:08:27,720 --> 02:08:31,280
Speaker 6: light on our vulnerability and our dependence on wood, and

2252
02:08:31,320 --> 02:08:33,560
Speaker 6: our vulnerability and a global supply chain that we don't

2253
02:08:33,560 --> 02:08:37,160
Speaker 6: control everything. That combined with climate change, which has put

2254
02:08:37,200 --> 02:08:39,160
Speaker 6: a bright light on the importance of forests as our

2255
02:08:39,240 --> 02:08:42,560
Speaker 6: last best hope at mitigating atmospheric CO two and conferring

2256
02:08:43,200 --> 02:08:47,040
Speaker 6: enormous landscape resilience in a changing climate. You'd think that

2257
02:08:47,120 --> 02:08:49,720
Speaker 6: those two things putting all this new light, they'd be

2258
02:08:49,720 --> 02:08:51,800
Speaker 6: being like these forestry people were right all along.

2259
02:08:51,600 --> 02:08:52,840
Speaker 1: We really give them more money.

2260
02:08:52,920 --> 02:08:56,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, and you know, and now it didn't. In turn,

2261
02:08:56,200 --> 02:08:59,920
Speaker 6: what it turned out is we gotta stop logging upub

2262
02:09:00,880 --> 02:09:03,360
Speaker 6: I got sued as a commissioner I've personally named in

2263
02:09:03,400 --> 02:09:06,720
Speaker 6: a lawsuit saying we're illegally logging, which is just the science,

2264
02:09:06,760 --> 02:09:09,320
Speaker 6: the settled law of the land, and the you know,

2265
02:09:09,520 --> 02:09:14,120
Speaker 6: economic realities, don't they all say something different. But the

2266
02:09:14,160 --> 02:09:17,320
Speaker 6: reaction to these things is let's trees are good, let's

2267
02:09:17,360 --> 02:09:21,960
Speaker 6: leave them alone. And that's fine if you don't have

2268
02:09:22,000 --> 02:09:24,760
Speaker 6: any need for them. So I'm back to Forrest's met

2269
02:09:25,280 --> 02:09:29,200
Speaker 6: forest don't need us, we need them. With one exception,

2270
02:09:29,360 --> 02:09:32,520
Speaker 6: forests do need us when we've commed them up significantly,

2271
02:09:32,560 --> 02:09:35,640
Speaker 6: invasive species, all the fire thing. So we do have

2272
02:09:35,680 --> 02:09:38,000
Speaker 6: to kind of get back in there. But generally it

2273
02:09:38,040 --> 02:09:41,800
Speaker 6: begins with and we need them. And until we confront

2274
02:09:41,840 --> 02:09:45,960
Speaker 6: that massive need and consumption, we're not gonna get anywhere

2275
02:09:45,960 --> 02:09:48,680
Speaker 6: in policy. And we need a culture that is of

2276
02:09:48,680 --> 02:09:50,560
Speaker 6: the land from the land. And I feel like this

2277
02:09:50,600 --> 02:09:53,840
Speaker 6: is a real strong parallel with your conservation work and

2278
02:09:53,880 --> 02:09:57,160
Speaker 6: the mission at the Meat Eater for being realistic about

2279
02:09:57,200 --> 02:09:59,920
Speaker 6: food and about where it comes from and and honest

2280
02:10:00,080 --> 02:10:03,320
Speaker 6: league acquiring it and in a way that's you know,

2281
02:10:03,360 --> 02:10:05,960
Speaker 6: the North American model, and like it's a way of

2282
02:10:06,000 --> 02:10:08,839
Speaker 6: conservation and it's it's this is a very parallel story

2283
02:10:09,520 --> 02:10:11,760
Speaker 6: real Finally, I'll tell you what the Commissioner of Fishing

2284
02:10:11,760 --> 02:10:15,120
Speaker 6: Wildlife previously when I was there, he was getting a

2285
02:10:15,160 --> 02:10:17,920
Speaker 6: lot of flak from Protect our Wildlife bills to you've

2286
02:10:17,960 --> 02:10:21,320
Speaker 6: written about them, anti trapping, anti hounding, a lot of

2287
02:10:21,360 --> 02:10:24,240
Speaker 6: anti hunting, fishing stuff going on right now in the Northeast,

2288
02:10:24,600 --> 02:10:26,680
Speaker 6: and he was saying, you know, we'd go out and

2289
02:10:26,800 --> 02:10:29,720
Speaker 6: co miserate and have dinner a beer or something, and

2290
02:10:30,120 --> 02:10:31,880
Speaker 6: he'd say, you know, it's over and I'm like, yeah,

2291
02:10:31,920 --> 02:10:34,760
Speaker 6: it's a drag man, it's over for you. And he's like, well,

2292
02:10:34,880 --> 02:10:37,240
Speaker 6: won't Joe, it'd be too comfortable. They're coming your way.

2293
02:10:37,640 --> 02:10:39,720
Speaker 6: And I was like, no, No, people get trees and

2294
02:10:39,760 --> 02:10:41,120
Speaker 6: wood and we use it. And you know what, I

2295
02:10:41,200 --> 02:10:43,840
Speaker 6: think he was right. It's like it's like, it feels

2296
02:10:43,920 --> 02:10:45,840
Speaker 6: like it's kind of over, and maybe we just have

2297
02:10:45,880 --> 02:10:48,640
Speaker 6: to go this really dark period of disconnection from the

2298
02:10:48,720 --> 02:10:52,280
Speaker 6: land before things are going to really go bad, and

2299
02:10:52,320 --> 02:10:54,360
Speaker 6: then maybe someday we'll get hip to it and come

2300
02:10:54,400 --> 02:10:54,960
Speaker 6: back around.

2301
02:10:55,280 --> 02:10:58,880
Speaker 1: I think that there's a there's a little bit of

2302
02:10:58,920 --> 02:11:01,680
Speaker 1: a mental trap into and I'm guilty of it too,

2303
02:11:01,680 --> 02:11:06,760
Speaker 1: where I'm comfortable looking at a piece of wildlife habitat.

2304
02:11:07,240 --> 02:11:08,840
Speaker 1: I'm going to use a tree analogy, which is going

2305
02:11:08,880 --> 02:11:11,400
Speaker 1: to confuse things, But I'm comfortable looking at a piece

2306
02:11:11,440 --> 02:11:17,320
Speaker 1: of wildlife habitat as an apple tree, an ache, an oak, okay.

2307
02:11:17,480 --> 02:11:20,960
Speaker 1: And when you kill a bear, kill a deer, you're

2308
02:11:21,280 --> 02:11:26,000
Speaker 1: picking up acorns, meaning you maintain the integrity of the tree.

2309
02:11:26,960 --> 02:11:29,440
Speaker 1: The tree is going to continue to drop acorns. You

2310
02:11:29,480 --> 02:11:34,760
Speaker 1: can use these acorns in a measured way and the

2311
02:11:34,760 --> 02:11:37,760
Speaker 1: tree stays there. So it's the thing I try to

2312
02:11:37,760 --> 02:11:40,560
Speaker 1: explain to people often about why hunters spend so much

2313
02:11:40,560 --> 02:11:44,960
Speaker 1: time talking about the well being of habitat. Conservation minded

2314
02:11:45,120 --> 02:11:46,840
Speaker 1: individuals spend a lot of time talking about the well

2315
02:11:46,880 --> 02:11:49,120
Speaker 1: being of habitat, but they don't spend a lot of

2316
02:11:49,160 --> 02:11:52,240
Speaker 1: time talking about the well being of an individual deer. Right,

2317
02:11:52,320 --> 02:11:55,600
Speaker 1: the fewd is expendable, a product of the bigger thing.

2318
02:11:57,520 --> 02:12:01,440
Speaker 1: But man, like I have a play that's it's old

2319
02:12:01,520 --> 02:12:10,400
Speaker 1: growth coastal rainforest. Okay, in my yard, so to speak,

2320
02:12:11,280 --> 02:12:17,520
Speaker 1: we have cedars that are what are they said, six

2321
02:12:17,640 --> 02:12:22,480
Speaker 1: seven feet I don't know, yeah, or diameters bigger. I'll

2322
02:12:22,480 --> 02:12:24,000
Speaker 1: shoot all of deer in the world, not all dew

2323
02:12:24,040 --> 02:12:26,440
Speaker 1: in the world, but at a measured pace, with giving

2324
02:12:26,440 --> 02:12:29,520
Speaker 1: them time to replace. I'd be comfortable with getting deer

2325
02:12:29,560 --> 02:12:34,600
Speaker 1: the rest of my life. I could not. I could not,

2326
02:12:35,680 --> 02:12:38,000
Speaker 1: And it's just me. I'm not condemning someone that does.

2327
02:12:38,120 --> 02:12:40,360
Speaker 1: I personally would not be able to stick.

2328
02:12:40,160 --> 02:12:42,200
Speaker 6: A song onto that tree, right, and I wouldn't.

2329
02:12:42,400 --> 02:12:44,200
Speaker 1: I don't know why, Like I don't, but I don't

2330
02:12:44,200 --> 02:12:47,200
Speaker 1: know why it's like because that thing's been there since

2331
02:12:47,200 --> 02:12:48,960
Speaker 1: before the country was a country.

2332
02:12:48,640 --> 02:12:50,440
Speaker 6: And that's it. That's the answer. And they're damn few

2333
02:12:50,480 --> 02:12:53,080
Speaker 6: of those, and especially in association with others in this

2334
02:12:53,160 --> 02:12:56,200
Speaker 6: functional unit, like that's special. And so, don't get me wrong,

2335
02:12:56,240 --> 02:12:58,520
Speaker 6: I'm not arguing that we need to just mow down

2336
02:12:58,560 --> 02:13:01,120
Speaker 6: every acre hilly or fly. I get what I'm saying

2337
02:13:01,280 --> 02:13:02,600
Speaker 6: we need to have, but where you're going to need

2338
02:13:02,600 --> 02:13:04,480
Speaker 6: to meet it, and it's possible. There's this sort of

2339
02:13:04,520 --> 02:13:06,880
Speaker 6: triad model that's been put out there this years ago.

2340
02:13:06,920 --> 02:13:09,200
Speaker 6: It's actually a professor of wildlife biology at the Universe

2341
02:13:09,280 --> 02:13:11,880
Speaker 6: Humane coined this idea of the triad approach to kind

2342
02:13:11,880 --> 02:13:15,520
Speaker 6: of land use. That there's intensively managed areas with maybe

2343
02:13:15,560 --> 02:13:18,880
Speaker 6: even clear cutting plant in his day, and then there's

2344
02:13:19,400 --> 02:13:21,680
Speaker 6: wildland reserves they need to be part of the mix.

2345
02:13:21,720 --> 02:13:25,800
Speaker 6: And then the vast space in between is an ecological

2346
02:13:25,800 --> 02:13:28,080
Speaker 6: forestry that's you don't cut all those, maybe you don't

2347
02:13:28,080 --> 02:13:30,440
Speaker 6: cut any of those, and it's the site dependent and

2348
02:13:30,680 --> 02:13:34,560
Speaker 6: and it's about natural regeneration and retaining you know, the

2349
02:13:34,600 --> 02:13:37,360
Speaker 6: great Alder Leopold, he said, right, the first precaution of

2350
02:13:37,360 --> 02:13:40,720
Speaker 6: intelligent tinkering is to keep every cog and wheel. Doesn't

2351
02:13:40,760 --> 02:13:44,000
Speaker 6: mean keep all the trees, but keep all the representatives

2352
02:13:44,000 --> 02:13:46,760
Speaker 6: of the different types and like keep the function alive.

2353
02:13:46,880 --> 02:13:49,920
Speaker 6: So that's what modern forestry is in my mind. It's

2354
02:13:49,960 --> 02:13:51,560
Speaker 6: beautiful and it's needed.

2355
02:13:52,280 --> 02:13:55,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, just I don't like. I don't like where I

2356
02:13:55,600 --> 02:13:59,600
Speaker 1: left my comment because I failed to acknowledge like another

2357
02:13:59,640 --> 02:14:04,840
Speaker 1: part of the being that that as a hunter, I

2358
02:14:04,880 --> 02:14:08,520
Speaker 1: can look at the habitat and be the integrity of

2359
02:14:08,560 --> 02:14:13,400
Speaker 1: the habitat will be able to put off game. But

2360
02:14:13,640 --> 02:14:17,600
Speaker 1: I like what you're proposing that the integrity, If the

2361
02:14:17,640 --> 02:14:22,840
Speaker 1: forest's integrity is kept intact, it'll continue to put off

2362
02:14:24,280 --> 02:14:27,560
Speaker 1: forestry products, meaning the same way that a deer. You'll

2363
02:14:27,600 --> 02:14:31,960
Speaker 1: be like, well, no, that deer is expendable as long

2364
02:14:31,960 --> 02:14:36,600
Speaker 1: as the big broad mechanism is capable of making more

2365
02:14:36,640 --> 02:14:39,720
Speaker 1: of them in perpetuity. So like, yeah, but like what

2366
02:14:39,760 --> 02:14:44,120
Speaker 1: you're what you're looking at with forest cares is the tree.

2367
02:14:44,560 --> 02:14:48,120
Speaker 1: That tree, it's older than a deer significantly, but those

2368
02:14:48,160 --> 02:14:51,040
Speaker 1: trees can come out and that forest can maintain its

2369
02:14:51,080 --> 02:14:54,160
Speaker 1: integrity and make more. The time scale is very different.

2370
02:14:54,720 --> 02:14:58,120
Speaker 1: Work here is done the time scale, it won't be

2371
02:14:58,200 --> 02:15:01,320
Speaker 1: ready for harvest in a year, but it'll be ready

2372
02:15:01,320 --> 02:15:01,919
Speaker 1: for hart.

2373
02:15:02,240 --> 02:15:06,080
Speaker 6: It's great stuff and there's a lot here. Uh.

2374
02:15:06,120 --> 02:15:09,720
Speaker 1: The book we've been talking about is Woodwise, woods Wise,

2375
02:15:09,800 --> 02:15:12,160
Speaker 1: Wo's wise. I looked at that title for a couple

2376
02:15:12,160 --> 02:15:13,879
Speaker 1: minutes trying to figure out it should have been punctuated

2377
02:15:13,920 --> 02:15:15,880
Speaker 1: differently or anything. But I think you nailed it all right.

2378
02:15:15,920 --> 02:15:20,080
Speaker 1: Man hardly wanted to put like a an apostrophe, but

2379
02:15:20,080 --> 02:15:22,400
Speaker 1: it would have been an impostor yeah, it would have

2380
02:15:22,400 --> 02:15:26,680
Speaker 1: been an impost apostrophe. Woods Wise, an Exploration of Forests

2381
02:15:26,720 --> 02:15:31,480
Speaker 1: and Forestry by Michael Snyder. Can you buy us on

2382
02:15:31,480 --> 02:15:32,640
Speaker 1: Amazon and all that kind of place?

2383
02:15:32,720 --> 02:15:35,400
Speaker 6: You sure can. We like to support local bookstores, but

2384
02:15:36,080 --> 02:15:36,560
Speaker 6: you know, just.

2385
02:15:36,520 --> 02:15:38,760
Speaker 1: Be listen, me too, me too. If I know that

2386
02:15:38,840 --> 02:15:41,560
Speaker 1: some people you don't have access to it, and they're

2387
02:15:41,560 --> 02:15:42,280
Speaker 1: not you know what I mean?

2388
02:15:42,360 --> 02:15:43,560
Speaker 6: And I hope people will look.

2389
02:15:44,080 --> 02:15:46,160
Speaker 1: We got people to listen to the show an Interior Alaska.

2390
02:15:46,200 --> 02:15:48,200
Speaker 1: It's like, this is not it's just an option for him.

2391
02:15:48,120 --> 02:15:50,600
Speaker 6: God bless him. And yes it is available on Amazon

2392
02:15:50,840 --> 02:15:51,440
Speaker 6: and by all.

2393
02:15:51,400 --> 02:15:52,960
Speaker 1: Means, if you if you got a way to do it,

2394
02:15:54,440 --> 02:15:57,560
Speaker 1: if you've got a way to do it, UH, help

2395
02:15:57,600 --> 02:15:59,320
Speaker 1: out local bookstores because you can go down there and

2396
02:15:59,400 --> 02:16:01,400
Speaker 1: find books you know about and it's great. But I'm

2397
02:16:01,520 --> 02:16:05,160
Speaker 1: like I said, yeah, I also want people just to read.

2398
02:16:05,120 --> 02:16:08,440
Speaker 6: Exactly what it takes. Remember I used to say, like

2399
02:16:08,880 --> 02:16:10,400
Speaker 6: you got to think out of the box. I think

2400
02:16:10,400 --> 02:16:12,680
Speaker 6: we need to lower like I think we just need

2401
02:16:12,720 --> 02:16:16,680
Speaker 6: to think where you're thinking. Like let's not get like,

2402
02:16:16,800 --> 02:16:18,960
Speaker 6: let's we'll get to that, like where are you thinking?

2403
02:16:20,640 --> 02:16:23,360
Speaker 6: So can we get some thinking going on?

2404
02:16:24,840 --> 02:16:27,280
Speaker 1: Uh, it's a lot of fun. Woods Wise and Expiration

2405
02:16:27,360 --> 02:16:29,520
Speaker 1: of Forrest and Forest Street. Michael Snyder, Michael, thanks for

2406
02:16:29,520 --> 02:16:31,640
Speaker 1: coming on the show man my pleasure, Thanks for having me.

2407
02:16:31,680 --> 02:16:51,920
Speaker 9: Thanks, Thanks Michael, Seal Gray shine like silver in the sun.

2408
02:16:55,720 --> 02:17:00,520
Speaker 3: Right right, Oh my.

2409
02:17:00,720 --> 02:17:07,280
Speaker 7: Life, sweetheart, We're done, beat this damp horse to death,

2410
02:17:08,480 --> 02:17:15,520
Speaker 7: taking a new one and ride away. We're done, beat

2411
02:17:15,680 --> 02:17:20,400
Speaker 7: this damn horse to death, so take a new one

2412
02:17:21,280 --> 02:17:22,000
Speaker 7: and ride on.