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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking to

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Speaker 2: crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker alongside Courtney Armstrong

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Speaker 2: and body Move In. It's Sunday, August tenth, and it

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Speaker 2: is scientific Sunday, I might add, and guess what. We

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Speaker 2: have a stacked night of headlines. Joseph Scott Morgan, our

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Speaker 2: very favorite forensics expert and post of the hit podcast

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Speaker 2: body Bags, is back and listen. There's a lot to unpack.

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Speaker 2: There has been a major dump of prime scene photos

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Speaker 2: in the Idaho massacre case. We're going to be delicately

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Speaker 2: unpacking the forensics on that, and also Joseph going to

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Speaker 2: share with us his theory about the circumstances around Marilyn

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Speaker 2: Monroe's alleged suicide. I guess that's been caught into question.

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Speaker 2: We even think she committed suicide anymore, So don't answer.

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Speaker 2: Joseph's going to actually talk us through it. And also

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Speaker 2: later in the show, if we get to it, we're

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Speaker 2: going to be discussing the case that everybody is talking about,

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Speaker 2: the husband who has been convicted for killing his wife

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Speaker 2: on Safari. Lots to discuss there, so Joseph, welcome back,

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Speaker 2: first and foremost. Yeah, we're so happy to have you back.

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Speaker 3: Guys. My favorite night of the week is that really

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Speaker 3: love being with you guys. It's like hanging out.

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Speaker 4: With That's so funny, you say, great friends.

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Speaker 3: And just chilling out and talking.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we're talking.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's my favorite night too, So what a coincidence?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, I love it. I love hanging out with

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Speaker 3: you guys and exploring science with you all.

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Speaker 2: Well, I will say, having been gone for a few nights,

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Speaker 2: it is such a great thing to be back with

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Speaker 2: the people that I love and respect the most. So let's,

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Speaker 2: you know, make sure we get our forensics on tonight

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Speaker 2: and listen, we have a talk back to jump to

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Speaker 2: right from the start, so let's go to that first.

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Speaker 5: This is Christine from Canada. Good morning, ladies, and good

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Speaker 5: morning mister Morgan. I would like to know if the

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Speaker 5: company k Bar has ever released a statement with regards

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Speaker 5: to the use of their knife during the horrific night,

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Speaker 5: and have they pulled the make and model of knife

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Speaker 5: from the production line. Thanks ladies, Thanks mister Morgan having it.

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Speaker 3: Wow, what a great question. I have not had anyone

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Speaker 3: over all this periods Tom asked that question. My thought

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Speaker 3: was was that the police had gone to the company,

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Speaker 3: which the company is actually and forgive me it is

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Speaker 3: scapes me right now. The company is not actually called

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Speaker 3: kar kbar will sold to another company several years ago.

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Speaker 3: But it is an excellent question. And you know, that's

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Speaker 3: one of the things that we do in forensics. We

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Speaker 3: will actually go and check a production line or ad

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Speaker 3: for the production line information and when and most things

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Speaker 3: like this. You can think about guns, knives, garbage bags.

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Speaker 3: They're all made in lots, okay, so there's like a

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Speaker 3: specific run. Now a gun and a knife are a

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Speaker 3: little bit more intensive. Okay. So you would then say

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Speaker 3: garbage bags, the garbage bag, we actually look at them

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Speaker 3: because we have unfortunately, we have cases involving garbage bags

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Speaker 3: that contain human remains. That just kind of jumped in mind.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, going back to the manufacturer, and I think

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Speaker 3: that that's a fascinating thing to really consider. Because of this,

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Speaker 3: in forensics, we have something that's called individualization, and that

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Speaker 3: goes to every element of evidence that we collect. What

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Speaker 3: is it that sets it apart from everything else? I've

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Speaker 3: always wondered, and I don't know that this question will

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Speaker 3: ever be answered, what kind of marks were left behind? Specifically,

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Speaker 3: see if I can put this delicately in the skeletal

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Speaker 3: features of each victim, and how does that translate to

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Speaker 3: the edge that blade. I really wondered because we haven't

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Speaker 3: heard anything about radiological reports. And I've often wondered if

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Speaker 3: any kind of metal had peeled off at any point

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Speaker 3: in time and it could be appreciated on X ray,

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Speaker 3: because that's something that would commonly do with bullets. And

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Speaker 3: I've seen knives actually shear in the autopsy room and

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Speaker 3: on X rays, and so that is something interesting to consider.

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Speaker 4: So like metal fragments perhaps, yeah, like shings of so

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Speaker 4: to speak.

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Speaker 3: Wow, Yeah, And you have to think about the repetitive

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Speaker 3: nature of the use. As horrible as this is, over

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Speaker 3: and over and over again that night. And I'm not

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Speaker 3: saying that it was structurally compromised in any way, but

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Speaker 3: you have to keep that within the realm of possibility.

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Speaker 3: The edge would not be as sharp as it was

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Speaker 3: when this and started and at the end, if you

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Speaker 3: have a more dull Knie, there will be a higher

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Speaker 3: probability that that could translate into some kind of scientific evidence.

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Speaker 6: Right.

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Speaker 7: It's so interesting that you asked about if Kbar the company,

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Speaker 7: you know, if they put out a statement because it

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Speaker 7: has been very publicly tied to this case. But also

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Speaker 7: what kind of response would you say, Like this is

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Speaker 7: maybe a poor analogy, but if anyone watched these Sex

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Speaker 7: and Cities spin off and just like that, they killed

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Speaker 7: the main character off at the very beginning because he

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Speaker 7: was on a peloton, right, and they talked about it

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Speaker 7: the whole I mean for seasons and episodes, but like,

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Speaker 7: it wasn't pelletpon's fault. It wasn't the device's fault. But

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Speaker 7: it's an interesting.

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Speaker 2: I'd be curious sometimes we'll be surprised everybody. I mean

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Speaker 2: we tick in k Bar.

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Speaker 4: We don't normally see kinds of statements from companies like

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Speaker 4: Smith and Wesson. Doesn't come out every time there's a

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Speaker 4: school shooting.

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Speaker 7: Right.

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Speaker 3: No, here's the thing. You know, when you think about

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Speaker 3: firearms with guns and one of the most fascinating things

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Speaker 3: you ever get to go to a crime lab and

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Speaker 3: go into the ballistics area. It is unbelievable because they

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Speaker 3: have representative samples of most firearms that you can imagine,

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Speaker 3: so they have that template that they're working from. How

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Speaker 3: many templates are there K bars out there? Because one

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Speaker 3: of the reasons this case case has captured me so

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Speaker 3: much was the weapon that was used. Out of all

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Speaker 3: the weapons in the world that could have been chosen

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Speaker 3: to perpetrate this madness, it was a K bar And

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Speaker 3: I know K bar from long long ago, had heard

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Speaker 3: about it, never heard about it used in a homicide

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Speaker 3: like this.

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Speaker 4: Well, didn't Donny Rollins use CA bar the Deinesville Ripper?

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Speaker 3: He very well might have. I know that. You know

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Speaker 3: he was camping out. You know, he lived this kind

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Speaker 3: of hermit light life so many years ago. I can't recall.

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Speaker 4: I don't recall either honestly, but I know that he.

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Speaker 3: Did have a knife because that was his tool preference.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'd be curious too, Joseph, based on everything

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Speaker 2: that we know about this case now, which is becoming

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Speaker 2: a lot of details, has there ever been anything that

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Speaker 2: made us clearer on why Brian Coburger actually chose that

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Speaker 2: particular weapon. Do you have a theory on that.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think something that kind of flashed back in

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Speaker 3: my mind. Do you guys remember seeing those junior RTC

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Speaker 3: photos of him, Yes, they go back to years. He

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Speaker 3: was a bit heavier there, and it would not surprise

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Speaker 3: me if he may have in his past, and I

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Speaker 3: think through the jail rt see images, we can you know,

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Speaker 3: put this Ford had he thought about going into the military.

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Speaker 3: And if you're a student of military history, particularly one

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Speaker 3: of the biggest military events has ever happened in US

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Speaker 3: history of the World War two, k bar featured significantly,

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Speaker 3: particularly in the Pacific theater. You can watch the movies.

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Speaker 3: I go back and look at some of the black

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Speaker 3: and whites, you know, like John Wayne, sans Avi, Regima,

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Speaker 3: those guys, they're all caring k bars that in that movie.

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Speaker 3: They actually had a manual for knife five. So I

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Speaker 3: wonder if maybe that caused his attention at some point.

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Speaker 4: Interesting, Yeah, I just got taha, just send us a note.

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Speaker 4: Danny Rollins the Games of Rapper. He did use a

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Speaker 4: K bar in the nineteen ninety murders of five students

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Speaker 4: in Gainesville, Florida. I thought it was really real sick.

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Speaker 3: Oh oh boy.

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Speaker 2: But that tracks because you would have to assume that

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Speaker 2: Brian Coberger has been tracking these other killers, so we

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Speaker 2: know that he was a fan necessarily, but that would

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Speaker 2: make We're going to get into that later.

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Speaker 4: We're going to get into that later tonight because there

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Speaker 4: is evidence that Brian Coberger was particularly interested in Danny Rowling.

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Speaker 2: So we just found that out.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, a lot, and that is a bulk of what

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Speaker 7: we're going to be talking about is all of this

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Speaker 7: new information that has just come out. Listen, this is

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Speaker 7: true Crime Tonight. We're on iHeartRadio. I'm Courtney Armstrong here

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Speaker 7: with Body Movin and Stephanie Leidecker and we are thrilled

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Speaker 7: to be joined with our forensic expert favorite Joseph Scott Morgan.

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Speaker 7: We're about to jump into a bunch of newly released

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Speaker 7: evidence in the Idaho college murder case. So we want

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Speaker 7: to converse with you. Eight and eight three one crime.

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Speaker 7: Give us a call. Body, can you lay the table

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Speaker 7: a little bit?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So this is in relation to the Idaho student murders.

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Speaker 4: Newly released neighborhood surveillance footage and dozens and dozens of

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Speaker 4: haunting photographs pull back the curtain a little bit on

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Speaker 4: the off campus home where in twenty twenty two, Brian

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Speaker 4: Coberger carried out the brutal murders of four college students,

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Speaker 4: offering the public its most detailed glimpse into the crime

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Speaker 4: scene yet. And listen, we would be remiss if we

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Speaker 4: didn't mention that the family of Kaylee Gonsolve release this

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Speaker 4: statement in regards to the photo release. In regards I'm

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Speaker 4: quoting in regards to the crime scene photos being released

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Speaker 4: of Kaylee, Maddie, Ethan, and Xana. We know they are

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Speaker 4: out there, but we are begging you not to share them.

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Speaker 4: These pictures are extremely private and cause immense pain and

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Speaker 4: trauma for all of our families. Please help us by

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Speaker 4: not reposting or sharing them. We are asking kindly for

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Speaker 4: your help and respect to this extremely sensitive matter. Thank you,

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Speaker 4: ps instead post your favorite photo of them. So here's

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Speaker 4: my thing, And I absolutely respect the family, and you know,

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Speaker 4: my heart it breaks for them that they have to

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Speaker 4: wake up and see this on the internet, right, I mean,

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Speaker 4: just it's horrifying. But I would rather talk about these

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Speaker 4: with you guys with respect and the reverence they deserve

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Speaker 4: than let the people that are unhinged completely talk about

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Speaker 4: this and just be completely like glorifying, you know, things

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Speaker 4: like oh, there wasn't I didn't.

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Speaker 2: There's not enough.

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Speaker 4: Blood there, you know, there had to be a clean

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Speaker 4: up crew coming, like they're just going crazy. So I

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Speaker 4: think it's important for us to speak about these. Right,

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Speaker 4: we're in the true we're in the true crime world.

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Speaker 4: We're absolutely going to be talking about these. We're not

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Speaker 4: going to be sharing them, but we are going to

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Speaker 4: be talking about these with respect, right, I mean, can

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Speaker 4: we agree?

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Speaker 2: We totally agree, obviously, But I also would suggest that

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Speaker 2: listeners don't have to look at it. We have Joseph here,

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Speaker 2: we can all discuss it. I wish I hadn't seen,

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Speaker 2: you know, so many of not only just these photos,

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Speaker 2: but in so many of the cases. So I would

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Speaker 2: encourage listeners not to look, not to share, and we

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Speaker 2: can do a very ethical unpack now, right. You know,

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Speaker 2: you guys are such clime brains starting off.

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Speaker 4: You know, the first photo I saw was I'm just

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Speaker 4: going to talk about the photos, if that's okay with

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Speaker 4: you guys.

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Speaker 8: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Sure.

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Speaker 4: The first photo I saw was of Kaylee's bedroom and

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Speaker 4: it's you know, nothing is gory in there. It was

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Speaker 4: completely un you know, unchanged. But the haunting part of

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Speaker 4: it is that Murphy Kaylee's dog is hiding under her

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Speaker 4: desk in this photo. And when you read the supplement

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Speaker 4: of reports that go along with these photos, by the way,

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Speaker 4: that were released in the previous week, we learned that

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Speaker 4: they had to coax Murphy out so like he was scared.

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Speaker 4: Murphy was scared, petrified, so petrified. Yeah, and it's it's

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Speaker 4: a haunting photo and it really it was the photo

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Speaker 4: I saw all the photos the day they released, and

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Speaker 4: it was the one photo I couldn't let go of

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Speaker 4: because it really painted a picture right of the night

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Speaker 4: without having to look at blood, without having to do anything.

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Speaker 4: It really painted a picture of that night to me.

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Speaker 7: Listen, we're going to continue to follow this. When we

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Speaker 7: come back, we're going to have more information about the

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Speaker 7: digital forensics that have been released in from Brian Koberger's

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Speaker 7: phone in relation to the Idaho college student murder case.

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Speaker 7: And also Joseph Scott Morgan's gonna tell us what really

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Speaker 7: happened with Marilyn Monroe. Stick around True Crime tonight.

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Speaker 2: It is Scientific Sunday, and of course Joseph Scott Morgan,

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Speaker 2: forensics expert and also host of the hit podcast Body

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Speaker 2: bags is here, and he's here on the perfect night

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Speaker 2: because there has just been a major dump of information

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Speaker 2: in the Idaho massacre, obviously the Brian Coburger Idaho killings.

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Speaker 2: You know, I hate saying his name and I don't

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Speaker 2: know how to get around it. What are we calling

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Speaker 2: him right now? Or just the killer? The murderer we

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Speaker 2: should say has decided to say nothing. But now we

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Speaker 2: are getting some glimpses into the forensics and they're pretty harrowing.

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Speaker 2: The Gonzalez family and the Chapin family victims. Families have

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Speaker 2: suggested that we really don't share them. So we're going

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Speaker 2: to pass that information along to you all as well,

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Speaker 2: and hopefully unpack it so you don't have to look.

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Speaker 2: It's scary stuff, grizzly stuff. Joseph, you know you know

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Speaker 2: this better than anybody, buddy. Do you want to set

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Speaker 2: us up a little bit before Joseph digs into the forensics.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So, through a public records request, NBC affiliate kt

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Speaker 4: BB obtained nearly two hundred there's actually one hundred and

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Speaker 4: eighty two, and we know that from Supplemental four of

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Speaker 4: the Moscow Police records Stump that we just got the

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Speaker 4: photolog contains one hundred and eighty two photographs, and the

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Speaker 4: news outlets have released around twenty three of them, and

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Speaker 4: they're redacted, they're blurred, but a lot of you know,

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Speaker 4: a lot of the images are just of daily life,

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Speaker 4: like you know, there's a laundry basket with clothes, and

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Speaker 4: there's beer bottles. This is a college home, right, red

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Speaker 4: solo cuff, Yeah, read, so there's an beer cang table,

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Speaker 4: like there's things is that you know, you would expect

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Speaker 4: to see in a college home. You know, Maddie comes

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Speaker 4: home and she takes off her Doc Martins and climbs

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Speaker 4: into bed and you can we can see a photo

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Speaker 4: of her Doc Martins on the floor, like it's it's

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Speaker 4: just a normal home. But then throughout those photos there's

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Speaker 4: this very unnormal scene, okay, and you know it's just

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Speaker 4: it's hard to describe. I'm doing my best, but it's

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Speaker 4: it's harrowing. You know, a small number of these photos

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Speaker 4: capture just like the grim reality of what happened there

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Speaker 4: nearly three years ago now already, and you know, there's

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Speaker 4: blood staining the hardwood floors, soaking into the bedding and

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Speaker 4: splattered across walls. We see smudges on a night stand

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Speaker 4: of blood and I'm and I really want to talk

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Speaker 4: to Joseph about what those things mean. Okay, Now there's

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Speaker 4: two photos in particular. One is of Maddie's floor and

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Speaker 4: it's right inside her door, and the other is of

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Speaker 4: Xana's floor and it's near the entry way to her room. Well,

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Speaker 4: it's inside her room near the door as well, actually,

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Speaker 4: and the blood droplets are perfectly round. Okay, they're perfectly round, Joseph,

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Speaker 4: What does that mean?

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Speaker 3: Well, this is what's recalled. This is what's referred to

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Speaker 3: as kind of a passive dripping. And this is quite

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Speaker 3: chilling because you can ascertain the movement of an object

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Speaker 3: based upon its position if you have a liquid, particularly

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Speaker 3: a viscous liquid like blood. And let me see how

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Speaker 3: I can frame this for you. If an individual had

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Speaker 3: a knife in their hand and they're in a static position,

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Speaker 3: that means they're not moving and this object, this knife,

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Speaker 3: is saturated with blood. What's going to happen is as

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Speaker 3: that person is standing still. Just for mind, just think

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Speaker 3: of yourself standing still in a doorway and you're holding

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Speaker 3: this inundated instrument with blood, and all of that blood

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Speaker 3: is seeking the tip of that knife and gravity is

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Speaker 3: pulling it down and then it passively. Passively there's that

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Speaker 3: word drops straight down and that's most of the time.

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Speaker 3: That's where you will get these perfect circles because there's

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Speaker 3: no dynamicism to them where they're flying through the air

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Speaker 3: and this sort of thing. Yeah, there's no tail, and

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Speaker 3: here's here's the cool thing. Most of the time, the

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Speaker 3: tail will tell you direction of travel. Okay, it's like

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Speaker 3: a pointer. And I did see it looked like it

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Speaker 3: was on the face of a door, not the door facing,

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Speaker 3: but actually the facing of the door. And they're kind

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Speaker 3: of diagonally oriented, and this means that's a dynamic event

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Speaker 3: where this blood depth is sho hit that surface. And

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Speaker 3: one of the things I teach my students and I

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Speaker 3: showed them an old image from Vietnam, actually an old

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Speaker 3: movie of napalm being dropped, and when you see these canisters,

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Speaker 3: this is a great way to kind of understand dynamics

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Speaker 3: of blood. See these cannisters released from a fighter jet.

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Speaker 3: It begins to roll through the air, and as it's

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Speaker 3: getting to the terminal point where it's launched, everything gets

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Speaker 3: more and more narrow and you can tell the direction

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Speaker 3: of flight of that napalm, and that's in a big way.

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Speaker 3: Think about that the same way as you do the blood. Okay,

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Speaker 3: it's traveling in a particular delect direction and it's giving that.

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Speaker 3: The problem is here is that we don't necessarily have

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Speaker 3: We don't necessarily have a what we refer to as

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Speaker 3: a macro shot of the door, the room, the floor.

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Speaker 3: And that's the way we work at Crimson. You take

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Speaker 3: macro shot, you go to mid range, then you do

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Speaker 3: micro shots, and you're doing it three hundred and sixty degrees.

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Speaker 3: It's like all we teach all points of the compass.

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Speaker 3: So you kind of move like this, and then you're

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Speaker 3: going concentrically as opposed to eccentrically. You start out broad

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Speaker 3: and then you narrow that down and that way you

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Speaker 3: go back. And you mentioned that there are how many

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Speaker 3: photos that they got in the dump. It was in

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Speaker 3: excess of time, Okay, so just understand there. I don't

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Speaker 3: know for a fact. I would say that there's probably

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Speaker 3: total number is probably approaching a thousand. That's just what

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Speaker 3: has been released. That's how detailed we generally are with photography.

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Speaker 3: Because what you're doing and everybody needs to get a

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Speaker 3: hold of this idea. You're freezing that moment in time.

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Speaker 3: You can never return back to it. So to tell

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Speaker 3: this story with these victims, have to freeze that moment

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Speaker 3: because you'll never get it back right, And it's a

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Speaker 3: you know, and it's kind of an uh uh. It's

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Speaker 3: a heavy task to be burned with because you want

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Speaker 3: to make sure that you get everything and some of

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Speaker 3: the stuff hides from you. Have to be very purpose,

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Speaker 3: very careful. No outside distractions. Don't talk to me while

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Speaker 3: I'm doing what I'm doing. Stay away from me. Just

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Speaker 3: let me photograph.

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Speaker 4: So these perfectly round circles, these perfectly round drops on

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Speaker 4: the inside the door, just just inside the door. Does

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Speaker 4: this tell us that he's he maybe observed his work

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Speaker 4: instead there for a moment.

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Speaker 2: Yeau's let me, That's what I thought.

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Speaker 4: Also, so I don't think Xanna interrupted him.

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Speaker 3: Well, I don't know, but I do know based upon

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Speaker 3: science that the subject that was holding this item that

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Speaker 3: saturate with blood paused and surveiled the area. I don't know,

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Speaker 3: maybe its exactly, And so they're kind of drinking this.

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Speaker 3: This individual is drinking all of the scent for one moment,

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Speaker 3: panting around where do I go next? What do I

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Speaker 3: do next? And that's why this is so just this

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Speaker 3: little bit that we're talking about, That's why this is

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Speaker 3: so incredibly chilling, because you get an idea of movement.

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Speaker 3: We haven't had this, right, I mean, people have speculated

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Speaker 3: about movement, but this is kind of evidence of at

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Speaker 3: least a pause. Now you don't necessarily know which direction

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Speaker 3: he went after that, but you know, just based upon that,

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Speaker 3: that this individual stood there as this blood dripped off

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Speaker 3: the tip of the knife.

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Speaker 4: It's harrowing to think about, Like it's harrowing to think

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Speaker 4: about him taking it in basically right, taking in what

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Speaker 4: he's done in both of these rooms at some point.

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Speaker 4: We don't know if it was you know, we know

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Speaker 4: it was after something because there's blood, but we don't

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Speaker 4: know in the sequential order of things. And if he

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Speaker 4: was rocking, he wouldn't be sitting there pausing.

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Speaker 2: But let's be for.

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Speaker 3: Real, right, and you know, there's there's always this this

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Speaker 3: specter of this idea. This individual did not necessarily count

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Speaker 3: on all of these subjects being there. So wouldn't you

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Speaker 3: take a pause? Well I don't know, but I would

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Speaker 3: you know, you're what do I do now in the

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Speaker 3: midst of all of the this adrenaline dump that this

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Speaker 3: individual's going through and orientation, it's dark. Where am I

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Speaker 3: going to go from here? Was it illuminated? I've always

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Speaker 3: wondered if he ever took a flash light with him

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Speaker 3: or some type. Did he have a phone with him?

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Speaker 3: You know that he was illuminating this area. How could

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Speaker 3: he keep it clean where you know, all of these

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Speaker 3: little things. I'm thinking probably more flashlight, not phone, right

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Speaker 3: because we know about the phone, but you know, you

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Speaker 3: think about flashlight just to veil the area. I'm thinking

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Speaker 3: about it. You can use a flashlight the blind victims

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Speaker 3: with I mean, if you've ever been oh yes, it's

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Speaker 3: like you know, you're disoriented and particularly in pitch pitch dark.

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Speaker 3: So and I don't know that that's the case, but

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Speaker 3: I'm just.

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Speaker 2: Saying could be that.

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Speaker 4: I mean, Bethany reported seeing a flash. That's the flash

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Speaker 4: right there. We've never been able to well wrap our

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Speaker 4: breaths around Bethany's on the first floor though, still, but

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Speaker 4: me it was.

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Speaker 2: So often around with it on exactly it might have

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Speaker 2: gone off multiple times, that might not have been the

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Speaker 2: only time. And just for anybody who's like not as

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Speaker 2: aware of the scene. Remember Madison Mogan and Kelly Gonzalveez,

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Speaker 2: they're on the top top floor, so he had to

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Speaker 2: go through a slider go to the top top floor.

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Speaker 2: And when you talk about a pause, it's a pause

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Speaker 2: by the killer with his weapon. Now we know at

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Speaker 2: his life at his side. Like the scariest movie ever

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Speaker 2: in the blood is dripping one by one by one

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Speaker 2: onto the floor, which is why those droplets are so significant.

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Speaker 2: It's a haunting detail, and the flesh that makes sense

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Speaker 2: it does.

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Speaker 4: There's another photo, Joseph, I, oh, I don't know if

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Speaker 4: we're gonna have time in this segment to get with it,

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Speaker 4: but I'll save it for the next one. The other

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Speaker 4: one that was interesting to me was the ping pong photo.

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Speaker 4: It's it's a living room and this is a really

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Speaker 4: quick one so I can get into it. The ping

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Speaker 4: pong or I'm sorry, the beer pong table. It's right

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Speaker 4: in the middle of the living room. And we know

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Speaker 4: from the photologue that they did find evidence of blood

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Speaker 4: on the pong table, but we don't know what it

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Speaker 4: looks like since we didn't get a photo of the blood.

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Speaker 4: But I'm kind of wondering if it's a transfer because

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Speaker 4: it's right in the middle of the table and he

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Speaker 4: would have gone past that pong table to get to

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Speaker 4: Zanna's room.

432
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that could come. You know, I've always held

433
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 3: that whatever uh you know, raiment that he had on,

434
00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 3: whatever clothing, would have been super saturated. If you don't

435
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,920
Speaker 3: have spatial awareness, you can brush up against an area

436
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:05,959
Speaker 3: and that is going to be a transfer. Or if

437
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,639
Speaker 3: he's trying to catch his breath, that could be a lean.

438
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,680
Speaker 3: And so if your hand or the gloved hand has

439
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 3: blood on it, you can transfer. And here in body,

440
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 3: I got to tell you one of the key things

441
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:22,119
Speaker 3: here is trying to understand form of that transfer. What

442
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 3: shape does it take? I think that's kind of interesting.

443
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:25,120
Speaker 2: It's key.

444
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:29,159
Speaker 7: Yeah, there's a lot more information that has come out

445
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 7: just in the past honestly hours, So keep it here.

446
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 7: We have Justseph Scott Morgan answering all of your forensic questions.

447
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:37,439
Speaker 2: We want to hear from you.

448
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 7: So call us eighty eight three one Crime, True Crime tonight.

449
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 2: And listen. We've had a really big info dump. I

450
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:56,640
Speaker 2: don't like that word info dump, but that's how they

451
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 2: say it in behind the scenes, and it's true a

452
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:01,920
Speaker 2: lot of the forensics and the photographs from the crime

453
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 2: scenes and the Idaho massacre have been released. They're redacted,

454
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,200
Speaker 2: but they are very telling of some of the things

455
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 2: that we just haven't had clean answers on, so we

456
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:15,639
Speaker 2: want to be very sensitive about it. First and foremost,

457
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:18,639
Speaker 2: we really are suggesting that you all don't have to

458
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:22,399
Speaker 2: listen or look. I should say, we can unpack it

459
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 2: here with smart brains. You know, Joseph, you do that

460
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 2: also sensitively, and you know we want to hear from you.

461
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:31,680
Speaker 2: So if you have any questions, please jump in eight

462
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,399
Speaker 2: eight eight three one crime, or you could always hit

463
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 2: us up on our socials at True Crime Tonight's show

464
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,879
Speaker 2: on TikTok and Instagram, or also on Facebook at True

465
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 2: Crime Tonight. Or you could also leave us a talkback,

466
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 2: which is that you know, download your iHeartRadio app top

467
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,119
Speaker 2: right hand corner, push the button and boom, you can

468
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 2: leave your message and you're on the show. Speaking of

469
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 2: which we have one right now.

470
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 3: I was thinking about with Brian cober Her and the

471
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 3: flash of light in the firecrackers sound that was heard.

472
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:10,199
Speaker 8: Could there have been like a taser or something like

473
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,879
Speaker 8: that that was used on the dog just wondering what

474
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 8: you thought.

475
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 2: Thanks, love you guys by.

476
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 4: Interesting, interesting question because I never thought about a taser

477
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 4: being used on Murphy.

478
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,399
Speaker 2: What do guys think That makes sense to me too,

479
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 2: to be honest, because again, we've always been curious about

480
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 2: why Murphy, this beloved dog of Kaylee Gonzalveez, is why

481
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 2: there wasn't maybe more activity or maybe why he didn't

482
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 2: take the dog's life. Thank god he didn't. By the way,

483
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 2: if you don't know this case and where you're kind

484
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,200
Speaker 2: of joining us here and jumping in, we're talking about

485
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 2: the Idaho College murders. For incredible students were murdered. The

486
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 2: killer and murderer has confessed to all four killings is

487
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 2: now serve multiple life sentences behind bars, and as a result,

488
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 2: there was no trial. And because there was no trial,

489
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:11,440
Speaker 2: we've had some new information shared with us from law

490
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 2: enforcement that was being saved for the trial. So we're

491
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:17,400
Speaker 2: unpacking that as sensitively as possible.

492
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 4: Yes we are, and we have a caller right now.

493
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 4: Do we want to get the call and ready to

494
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:23,119
Speaker 4: do it?

495
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:23,360
Speaker 7: Yes?

496
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 2: Absolutely do it?

497
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 1: Meg?

498
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,680
Speaker 8: Hi, Meg, Hey, thank you, Hey, this is Meg. Thank

499
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,159
Speaker 8: you so much for taking my call. I just I

500
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:35,639
Speaker 8: am part of a true crime community, and there's a

501
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 8: lot of debate on whether or not Kaylee was actually

502
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 8: in the bed with Maddie when the attack started. I

503
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 8: am of the belief that she was and just woke

504
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 8: up and started, you know, perhaps screaming. Some people think

505
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 8: that she interrupted and came in. I just feel like

506
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 8: if she did interrupt, there would be more disturbance, Like

507
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 8: they're in the doorway, like Mattie's shoes were still perfectly still.

508
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 8: And yes, ye see you know a lot of blood.

509
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 8: And I was just going to ask mister Morgan what

510
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 8: he thought.

511
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks thanks for calling. Yeah, I uh we're two

512
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 3: minds of this, uh or are of one mind? Rather

513
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 3: forgive me in a long day? Yeah? Absolutely, I I

514
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 3: agree uh with with your uh your view of this,

515
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 3: I think because you know, we have to think back

516
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 3: to what mister Gonzalvee said. Uh he had some kind

517
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 3: of knowledge about this because he talked about he almost

518
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 3: described it almost like an entrapment, uh, where Maddie was

519
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 3: in between uh you know, uh Kayley in the door

520
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 3: and that's contained in that bed. And there's also speculation

521
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 3: that at some point in Tom Kaylee uh may very

522
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 3: well have been in either a uh, completely up upright

523
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 3: position in the bed, you know, kind of laying back

524
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 3: in a swall, or partially seated so that her shoulders

525
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 3: were elevated above the level of ways. Now, I don't

526
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 3: I don't know how we would go about validating that,

527
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 3: but it seems more logical to me than her coming

528
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 3: in and discovering this individual in the room with him.

529
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I'm I'm the opposite mind here. I believe

530
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 4: Kaylee interrupted him. I believe he threw her onto the bed.

531
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 4: I think she was sitting upright at one point because

532
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 4: of the blood spatter that we see in the photos

533
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 4: that were going over the.

534
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 2: Listen.

535
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 4: Dylan is insistent that she heard Kaylee say somebody's here,

536
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 4: and then like ten minutes had passed and she heard

537
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 4: a man saying a not a nice way. Don't worry,

538
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 4: I'm going to help you. It has to be Kayley,

539
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 4: And the only way that happens is if she's outside

540
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 4: of that room and goes in.

541
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 2: That's just my opinion.

542
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 7: Yeah, I counted that as well. What's your rationale, Stephanie.

543
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 2: I just think that they were two best friends. Reminders

544
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 2: Kaylee and Madison were raised like sisters. You know, they

545
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 2: grew up together, so you know, picture it. You go

546
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 2: out for a night playing with your buds, and you

547
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 2: come back and you're you're just going to crash in

548
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 2: the same bed. Remember Kaylee was returning for the weekend,

549
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:21,960
Speaker 2: so you know, they probably wouldn't want to sleep in

550
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 2: separate rooms. So they were just doing like sisters do.

551
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 2: That to me has always really tracked just based on

552
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 2: what I know about them or what we've been told

553
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 2: about them. I should say, Court, and you're shaking your head,

554
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 2: what's your opinion?

555
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 7: Well, my thought is and body referenced Dylan's statement. So

556
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 7: Dylan is one of the surviving thank God roommates witnesses.

557
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 7: And I just don't give that much weight to her

558
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 7: saying it was ten minutes after because in the middle

559
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 7: of the night, and this is this is just a

560
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 7: no dig on her. But I don't think you have

561
00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 7: the sense of time, and I don't put a lot.

562
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 2: Of That's a good point.

563
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 4: That is that is a super valid and good point.

564
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 4: We also have to remember they cut out a huge

565
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 4: wall right next to the desk, which is right near

566
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 4: the door, which is where Kaylee would have entered. I

567
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 4: think she was attacked there. I think that's why they

568
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 4: removed the wall. I think he threw her on the bed.

569
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 4: She landed in an upright position. He continued to attack

570
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 4: her while she was sitting upright and then she perished.

571
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 2: What if what if he was attacking her and ripped

572
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 2: her out of the bed.

573
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 4: Maybe, I mean, listen, anything is possible. I don't know.

574
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 2: I'm an idiot.

575
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 7: You know.

576
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 3: One of the things I'm thinking about is if that

577
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 3: wall and we've talked about this a couple of times

578
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 3: where the wall was removed and it would be a

579
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 3: slab of you know, sheet rock that's cut out and

580
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 3: it's commonly done at cromp scenes. And if he came

581
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 3: to rest there, for instance, if this is like a transfer,

582
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 3: could have leaned against it. Remember we're talking about adrenaline

583
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 3: dump here. This is an exhausting event. Let me remember

584
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 3: how many how many injuries do we know of relative

585
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 3: to Kaylee alone? You know, mister Gonzalez said like thirty.

586
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 3: I think that's the police and the interview that they

587
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 3: give gave said like twenty nine. And we're just talking

588
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 3: about straight up stab ones or sharp force injuries. Not

589
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 3: to mention this horrible disfigurement thing that's going on with

590
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 3: her face, So you would have a lot of transfer

591
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 3: onto again, going back to what I've always held, you'd

592
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 3: have a lot of transfer coming back on to him.

593
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 3: This is a very intimate thing. It's going to transfer

594
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 3: on to him. We don't know where did he lean

595
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 3: on that area?

596
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 2: Medi yeah, maybe, Yeah.

597
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 7: There's a lot of information coming at us from different directions.

598
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 7: This is true crime tonight. We're on iHeartRadio and we

599
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 7: are speaking with Joseph Scott Morgan, forensic expert, and it

600
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 7: is about the Idaho student murders and the information that

601
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:10,279
Speaker 7: has been recently resealed since the case did not go

602
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 7: to court, and indeed the murderer is behind bars. If

603
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 7: you want to join the question the conversation and ask

604
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 7: us or Joseph Scott Morgan questions eighted eight three to

605
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:24,320
Speaker 7: one Crime. Joseph, is there any sort of overarching takeaway

606
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 7: or any specific any thing that you saw that made

607
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 7: you say huh? This illuminates that or raises more questions

608
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 7: with regard to the photos.

609
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 3: Now, I think most of it was confirmatory to me.

610
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 3: You know. One of the things that really struck me

611
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 3: is such a it's such a I don't know. I

612
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 3: don't know if the words for destroon, but it just

613
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 3: there was an image that the news media took where

614
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 3: we could see and through the window there in the

615
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 3: great room space, and we actually saw the solo cups.

616
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:57,840
Speaker 3: I don't know if you remember that that table was cluttered.

617
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,839
Speaker 3: That's from the exterior of the house, and now it's

618
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 3: contextualized with this crime scene image where it's you're flashing

619
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 3: back to that spot, only it's from a different angle.

620
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:10,880
Speaker 3: You know, whoever it was it took that shot. It

621
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:13,640
Speaker 3: may have been a screen capture off a video from

622
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 3: the news media, but you go back into that house,

623
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 3: I think for me, I really expected to see more

624
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 3: evidence of blood. This goes to the idea of containment,

625
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:35,800
Speaker 3: that these things happened in specific forgive me for saying

626
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 3: that these this butchery took place in specific locations, and

627
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 3: those victims did not move from that location. He killed

628
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 3: them where they were, and so you've got this supersaturation

629
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,359
Speaker 3: that's going on there. Again, I point you to the

630
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,279
Speaker 3: exhibit of the blood that's exterior to the house that

631
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,359
Speaker 3: has now been confirmed as being ethan. You know, he

632
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:02,359
Speaker 3: did not move from that spot. Uh. And as I've

633
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 3: mentioned before, these events with sharp force injuries are the

634
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 3: bloodiest crimp scenes you will ever enter onto. Even considering

635
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 3: massive gunfire, it doesn't compare to sharp force injuries.

636
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:16,320
Speaker 2: Right there.

637
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:20,800
Speaker 4: You mentioned they probably very much likely died in the spot.

638
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 4: There's one one exception, I think, Joseph and I think

639
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:28,360
Speaker 4: that was Sanna's room. And in many of the photos

640
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,279
Speaker 4: we can see that there was clearly a struggle. Right,

641
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:35,760
Speaker 4: there's smears of blood on her nightstand, which implies movement

642
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 4: and pressure.

643
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, yeah, it does. And I think that that's

644
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 3: the point well taken. Yeah, let me rephrase my answer.

645
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:54,440
Speaker 2: No, no, for the record, yes, records show so containment.

646
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 3: It goes into that one physical space that is designated

647
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 3: as her room. It didn't travel all. Yeah, so it's complained.

648
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:06,800
Speaker 3: And let me throw this out there, if you like

649
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 3: this one, if you like that one. I believe that

650
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:14,319
Speaker 3: out of all of these victims, Zanna probably took the

651
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:16,839
Speaker 3: worst of it. You know, because we're hearing numbers that

652
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 3: are as an old death investigator forensic science professor, these

653
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 3: are astronomical numbers when you begin to think about the

654
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,319
Speaker 3: butchery that took on that took place with her. You know,

655
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,359
Speaker 3: we heard Kaylee earlier, maybe thirty, that's what mister Gonzalvez said.

656
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:37,760
Speaker 3: It doesn't approach what Xanna went through. When we're beginning

657
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 3: to hear about the number I've heard is fifty and

658
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,279
Speaker 3: it maybe more or less, I don't know, but that's

659
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,840
Speaker 3: a huge number, particularly when it comes to stab ones.

660
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 2: That's right, we're unpacking these recent photos that have been

661
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 2: shared publicly from law enforcement surrounding the Idaho massacre and

662
00:37:56,000 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 2: the murders of for incredible college students, Smogan, Kaylie, Gonsalvez,

663
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 2: even Shapen and of course Zaturkarnodle and the families are

664
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 2: really encouraging everyone to not look because they are grizzly

665
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 2: and private and personal insensitive. And you know, I'm curious

666
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 2: what you guys think about that. I could really feel

667
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:19,840
Speaker 2: for them and appreciate that. And is it appropriate for

668
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 2: those photos to be out there or is it necessary?

669
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:24,320
Speaker 2: I guess is the question.

670
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 7: I'll be honest, I really just primarily follow what the

671
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 7: victim's family does. And I can say this having made

672
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 7: quite a bit of documentaries with Stephanie Leidecker and been

673
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:40,320
Speaker 7: lucky enough to do that at KT. The first thought

674
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:42,920
Speaker 7: beyond what does the network think or anyone else, is

675
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 7: what do the families think who have seen this? And

676
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:50,800
Speaker 7: you know, listen, I think these would have come out if.

677
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 2: There were a trial.

678
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 7: But I also really respect that people don't need to

679
00:38:56,120 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 7: be sending, posting, meming anything else. We're here to talking

680
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:03,760
Speaker 7: with the forensic expert about what potentially can be learned,

681
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:08,320
Speaker 7: and I think it's best kept contained, is my thought.

682
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:12,399
Speaker 4: I Listen, we're in the true crime business, and this

683
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 4: is analyzing what happened in a crime. And I think

684
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 4: it would be silly to think that we're not going

685
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:22,279
Speaker 4: to talk about these But we're not showing them, right,

686
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:26,879
Speaker 4: we're not glorifying them. We're not, you know, And if

687
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 4: we didn't talk about them, then I would be like, Okay,

688
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 4: they're capitulating a little bit too, you know, families in

689
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 4: some way. But you know, this is our business and

690
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:38,319
Speaker 4: this is what we do, and this is what we're

691
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:39,240
Speaker 4: supposed to be doing.

692
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:41,360
Speaker 2: What do you think, Joseph?

693
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:44,880
Speaker 3: Okay? For me, I think I think they made a

694
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:48,719
Speaker 3: good decision here by releasing them, and this is why

695
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 3: they got out in front of it, and this is

696
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:56,799
Speaker 3: such a sensitive thing. They now control. They being the authorities,

697
00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 3: control what's going to be out there. Now, that doesn't

698
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:06,320
Speaker 3: mean that somebody with ill intent can't still get these

699
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 3: and release them. We saw what happened a few weeks

700
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 3: back when that episode of that program on a Friday

701
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 3: Night was released and we had all this stuff pushed

702
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:21,440
Speaker 3: out there. The authorities in an official capacity were not

703
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:25,280
Speaker 3: in control of that. They released these. They're in control

704
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:28,239
Speaker 3: of it. I have had images in cases I've been

705
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 3: involved in. I remember one many many years ago that

706
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:37,280
Speaker 3: showed up on the internet that originated out of Germany,

707
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 3: and it was a case I was involved in, and

708
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 3: it was horrible. I mean it was a horrible case.

709
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:46,440
Speaker 3: You want to be in control of this. This in

710
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 3: particular because listen, they did avoid the family, avoided going

711
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:55,879
Speaker 3: through a trial. Okay, they avoided not having to sit

712
00:40:55,920 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 3: there and listen and watch and see. This is a

713
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 3: road that they're going to go down. They being the

714
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 3: authorities where they're in control of this thing, and they

715
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:10,279
Speaker 3: can actually dictate what's going to be.

716
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:13,400
Speaker 2: Out there, totally fair and listen, we're going to continue

717
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 2: to be discussing this case. You know, there's obviously going

718
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 2: to be new pieces of information coming out. So for

719
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 2: tonight though, I think we'll put this to bed for

720
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:24,759
Speaker 2: the evening because also, Joseph, we want to hear from

721
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:29,799
Speaker 2: you about this Marilyn Munroe theory around her alleged suicide.

722
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 2: So say, what my mom is really popping up right

723
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:35,359
Speaker 2: now is she can't wait to hear about this. And

724
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,280
Speaker 2: then also the case that we're all talking about this

725
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,600
Speaker 2: man who killed his wife on Safari, we want to

726
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 2: hear from you eight eight eight three one crime. This

727
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 2: is true crime tonight, we're talking true crime all the time.

728
00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:59,359
Speaker 2: We need to take a break and talk about Marilyn Monroe.

729
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 2: So we'll get to that in a moment, because Joseph has,

730
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:05,320
Speaker 2: you know, some theories about whether or not she actually

731
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 2: took her own life. And then also later in the show,

732
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 2: we're going to be discussing this Larry Rudolph man who's

733
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:14,799
Speaker 2: been convicted of killing his wife so Fari, this guy,

734
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:18,839
Speaker 2: so lots to discuss on that one, Courtney, take it away.

735
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 2: Where do you want to start? Okay, this is a.

736
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 7: Quick update, but something we've been talking about for one

737
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 7: week and it was a week long man hunt. Yeah,

738
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 7: this is what happened in Anaconna, Montana authorities have taken

739
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:36,239
Speaker 7: the suspect into custody for the shooting that happened at

740
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 7: the Owl Bar.

741
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:39,879
Speaker 2: So great job, authorities.

742
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 7: This is one of the what three man hunts that

743
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:47,319
Speaker 7: we were talking about last week. It was kind of unbelievable,

744
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:51,360
Speaker 7: but the suspects in custody Michael Paul Brown, who was

745
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 7: a forty five year old Army veteran. Again, this happened

746
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 7: August first, so the manhunt was swift and effective and

747
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 7: very sadly for local residents were killed in the shooting,

748
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:09,440
Speaker 7: including a bartender Nancy Kelly, and patrons Daniel Bailey, David Leech,

749
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 7: and Tony Palm. So we really send our deep miscondolences

750
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:17,400
Speaker 7: to the family and.

751
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:21,319
Speaker 2: Are happy that he has been captured. So yeah, hats

752
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:24,319
Speaker 2: off to law enforcement too. Think about it. These manhunts

753
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:28,879
Speaker 2: are so dangerous, right, so you know, again to the

754
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:31,520
Speaker 2: to the men and women in blue who keep us

755
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:33,800
Speaker 2: safe about hats off, well done.

756
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:36,920
Speaker 4: That's another update in Arkansas. Do you guys remember the

757
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 4: Devil's Den? Yes, of course, yes, of course. It's just happened,

758
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:44,399
Speaker 4: and you know we've been following it as well. And

759
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:48,240
Speaker 4: the guy arrested. He's an Arkansas teacher. He was arrested

760
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:52,440
Speaker 4: for killing both mom and dad and they're possibly they

761
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,280
Speaker 4: think he might be tied to an unsolved murder in Vermont.

762
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:01,479
Speaker 4: Really yeah so on July, Yeah, so just recently. July

763
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:04,480
Speaker 4: twenty sixth, twenty eight year old school teacher. His name

764
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:09,719
Speaker 4: is Andrew McGann. He allegedly stabbed Clinton David Brink and

765
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:13,319
Speaker 4: his wife, Kristen Amanda Brink to death while they were

766
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:17,760
Speaker 4: hiking with their two little girls in Devil's Den, Arkansas.

767
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 4: Four days later, he was arrested at a barber shop

768
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:24,240
Speaker 4: mid haircut, where he admitted to the crimes. Since his arrest,

769
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 4: investigators have opened inquiries to his connection to this twenty

770
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 4: twenty three murder of Honoree Fleming. So apparently this woman

771
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 4: was hiking and she was killed, and they're looking at

772
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:41,239
Speaker 4: this guy for a possible connection. Wow, Yeah, this.

773
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:43,880
Speaker 7: Guy moved around. Should it be the same. He is

774
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 7: a suspect, But he's a suspect. But I haven't heard

775
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 7: any evidence linking him to Vermont at any time. We

776
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:55,720
Speaker 7: know he lived in Texas and Oklahoma, right, but you know, yeah,

777
00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:00,680
Speaker 7: but nothing in Vermont. Nothing in Vermont. Okay, well, still

778
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:04,440
Speaker 7: still unfolding, Still unfolding, and we're gonna, you know, we're

779
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 7: going to keep it up. And the suspect who murdered

780
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 7: Honoree was described as a white man in his twenties,

781
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,600
Speaker 7: about five po ten, with short red hair, so I mean,

782
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 7: things kind of line up. He was reportedly wearing a

783
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 7: dark gray shirt and carrying a black backpack.

784
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:27,120
Speaker 4: Police released a composite sketch of him based on the

785
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 4: accounts of somebody who was a witness, and there is,

786
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:33,839
Speaker 4: i'm know, a resemblance. I'm not gonna lie like it's

787
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 4: kind of eerie. Yeah, but you know, Vermont State Police

788
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:39,719
Speaker 4: are continuing to actively pursue all the leads in the

789
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:42,839
Speaker 4: case and have not confirmed any direct connection to him

790
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:45,279
Speaker 4: at this time. But we're gonna, We're gonna keep on it.

791
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:46,920
Speaker 4: We're gonna, we're gonna keep reporting on it.

792
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:49,160
Speaker 2: Can I just say, you guys did such a wonderful

793
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:51,920
Speaker 2: job last week. I had the benefit of tuning in.

794
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 2: I was moving, which is as anybody has who has

795
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:58,799
Speaker 2: ever moved. Yes, it's always you know, far harder than

796
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:01,759
Speaker 2: you think. But it is such a joy to get

797
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:05,880
Speaker 2: to work with you and hearing you guys live was

798
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 2: was so exciting and you just did such a great job.

799
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 2: So I'm really proud to be back. We missed you,

800
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 2: We really did. We There was a lot of man

801
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:14,279
Speaker 2: hunts without me, so it.

802
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:16,640
Speaker 7: Was and you know we didn't have the full stat

803
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 7: everybody was at large.

804
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 2: You know, I'm like in my little black mask, you know,

805
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:30,319
Speaker 2: dead in the nightcusing. But yeah, you guys are such

806
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 2: a great job.

807
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:33,480
Speaker 4: Well, you're listening to true crime. You're listening to true

808
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 4: crime tonight on iHeartRadio where we talk true crime all

809
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:39,360
Speaker 4: the time. I'm body movin and I'm here with Stephanie Leidecker.

810
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:43,120
Speaker 4: We're so glad you're back. Courtney Armstrong and forensic expert

811
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 4: Joseph Scott Morgan. We're talking about the true crime headlines

812
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:51,239
Speaker 4: of the day. We're going to segue into Marilyn Monroe

813
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:54,080
Speaker 4: and if you want to weigh in, give us your thoughts,

814
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:56,359
Speaker 4: give us a call eighty eight thirty one Crime or

815
00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 4: send us a talkback message. Courtney, get us set the

816
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 4: table for me, Okay to me.

817
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:07,800
Speaker 7: Yeah, okay, this is really interesting. The coroner who performed

818
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:12,960
Speaker 7: the autopsy in Marilyn monroe Rose death they've since revealed

819
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:16,680
Speaker 7: doubts over the circumstances of her death. This comes sixty

820
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:21,320
Speaker 7: three years later. So, Marilyn Monroe died back in August

821
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 7: of nineteen sixty two. She was only thirty six years old.

822
00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:30,319
Speaker 7: She was found in her home in Los Angeles the

823
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:35,799
Speaker 7: day after her alleged suicide, and her official cause of

824
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:40,800
Speaker 7: death was a probable suicide due to an overdose of barbituates. However,

825
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:44,600
Speaker 7: a lot of people have speculated she was murdered and

826
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 7: her death was staged to look like the suicide. So, Joseph,

827
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:52,719
Speaker 7: there's a little bit more info. But what tell us

828
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:54,200
Speaker 7: why you brought this up?

829
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 3: Well, the reason I brought it up is that somebody

830
00:47:57,080 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 3: had brought it up to me. There's been a recent

831
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 3: biography that has dropped that's been written by a lady

832
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:06,800
Speaker 3: named Anne Troy, and it's about one of my heroes

833
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:10,839
Speaker 3: in forensic pathology, and that's doctor Tom Nogucci. I look

834
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 3: up to him. He's taught so many people. He was

835
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:18,400
Speaker 3: the La County Corner and he actually he wrote a

836
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:21,640
Speaker 3: great book back in ninety three. Back in eighty three,

837
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:25,719
Speaker 3: him personally called Corner at Large. And listen, guys, he's

838
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:30,800
Speaker 3: done the autopsies on Belushi, the Tate La Bianca, he did.

839
00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:35,239
Speaker 3: He did Marilyn Monroe, he did Bobby Kenned, all right.

840
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 3: So that's how high an esteem that many of us

841
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:42,880
Speaker 3: hold him based upon all of these cases he's been

842
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:45,799
Speaker 3: involved in. And he was a hands on guy. So

843
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:50,719
Speaker 3: in this book he's apparently related that he felt like

844
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:53,880
Speaker 3: the breaks were put on him relative to Marilyn Monroe.

845
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:56,279
Speaker 3: As a matter of fact, to the point, were some

846
00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 3: of the tissue samples he had taken at autopsy, which

847
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 3: is something that's commonly done, were destroyed, And he says

848
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:10,160
Speaker 3: they were destroyed by the chief toxicologists, and that other studies,

849
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 3: other toxicological studies were not done. And since he was

850
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:17,279
Speaker 3: a junior member of the staff, he felt kind of

851
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:20,440
Speaker 3: handcuffed in this, like he even though he's thirty seven

852
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:23,520
Speaker 3: years old, that's very young for forensic pathologists, particularly in

853
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:25,880
Speaker 3: a shop the size of la even back then in

854
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:30,240
Speaker 3: sixty two, they were you know, he it was almost

855
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 3: he's intimating that someone was preventing him from moving forward.

856
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:38,239
Speaker 3: And this man has never been afraid of anything, but

857
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 3: in this particular case, you know, there were problems and

858
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:48,759
Speaker 3: so from his perspective. And look, this speculation's gone on

859
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:52,280
Speaker 3: for years and years relative to Marilyn Monroe and about

860
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 3: how she died. I can tell you this. She was

861
00:49:54,640 --> 00:50:00,760
Speaker 3: found completely nude with a sheet on her bed, lying

862
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 3: in a prone position. The phone or telephone. It was

863
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:07,880
Speaker 3: a hardline phone, obviously, that's what they had, is lying

864
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 3: the receiver's line immediately adjacent to her hand. There's in

865
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:17,560
Speaker 3: pill bottles. But here's the problem. When doctor Magucci did

866
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:21,120
Speaker 3: her autopsy, guess what they didn't find in her stomach

867
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:23,920
Speaker 3: pill any pills.

868
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:25,560
Speaker 2: There were no pills in her stockach.

869
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 6: No.

870
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:30,160
Speaker 3: And the thing about pills, here's how this breaks down.

871
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:35,319
Speaker 3: If you ingest pills. Okay, we can see that at autopsy,

872
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:41,200
Speaker 3: actual physical the physical remnant of it, and particularly if

873
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:46,480
Speaker 3: it is a life ending event, your digestive system shuts down.

874
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:51,120
Speaker 3: But here's something really curious about the other end of

875
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:56,000
Speaker 3: her digestive system. In her colon, there were focal areas

876
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 3: of hemorrhage and congestion. Well, focal areas of congestion. I'll

877
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:02,680
Speaker 3: say that hemorrhage and one of the things that has

878
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:05,200
Speaker 3: been put forward and it's not Listen, I'm not the

879
00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:08,319
Speaker 3: first presson to say this and said for years that

880
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 3: either she was given a suppository or perhaps an enema

881
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 3: of some kind containing this drug cocktail. And this drug

882
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:19,399
Speaker 3: cocktail that the found on board with her. Guys, this

883
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:22,680
Speaker 3: is the same drug cocktail that she used in other

884
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:27,279
Speaker 3: countries for people to end their life. This is the

885
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 3: same cocktail I'm just actually used now in the recipe

886
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:32,880
Speaker 3: for lethal injection.

887
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:36,160
Speaker 4: Well, and isn't taking drugs that way more effective?

888
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:37,600
Speaker 2: I've heard that.

889
00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:39,279
Speaker 4: I don't know if that's Oh yes, and I don't

890
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:41,480
Speaker 4: have any first and experience, that's what I've heard.

891
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:44,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, stop the press for one second for for me

892
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:46,239
Speaker 2: and my mom.

893
00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:48,799
Speaker 4: So Stephanie is literally freaking around.

894
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:52,360
Speaker 2: Just like I can't get enough of this conversation for starters,

895
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:55,400
Speaker 2: So what does that mean? So she was given a

896
00:51:55,480 --> 00:51:58,799
Speaker 2: lethal amount of a cocktail of sorts of a pill

897
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:02,759
Speaker 2: cocktail time that you would get, say in Switzerland, for

898
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:07,120
Speaker 2: a sistical assistance to a medical assistant suicide if you're

899
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:10,560
Speaker 2: like suffering from a disease. We should talk about that

900
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 2: one night. She should. But then so they're given she's

901
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:17,319
Speaker 2: given his cocktail. What's the enema part of it? Like,

902
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:18,000
Speaker 2: how does that?

903
00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:18,279
Speaker 5: Well?

904
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:20,200
Speaker 3: I don't know. I mean, I'm just I'm throwing that

905
00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:22,759
Speaker 3: out there. It was kind of yeah, it was in

906
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:26,319
Speaker 3: her colon. So some people have stated I've heard some

907
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:30,360
Speaker 3: people say suppository, which would be a hard compression. It

908
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:33,720
Speaker 3: would have to be of a combination of this nimbatol

909
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:38,840
Speaker 3: uh and chloral hydrate, which she did have in copious amounts,

910
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:42,760
Speaker 3: by the way lethal levels that she had. And yet

911
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:47,600
Speaker 3: to that point, when drugs are introduced into this portion

912
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:53,480
Speaker 3: of the body, okay, they're absorbed really really quickly. I

913
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:55,799
Speaker 3: actually had a case many years ago where a guy

914
00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:58,560
Speaker 3: was muling drugs in from Bolivia and he was this

915
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:01,080
Speaker 3: little farm guy that had and pulled in by one

916
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:04,600
Speaker 3: of the drug cartels. They made him in just they

917
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:10,040
Speaker 3: made him ingest twenty five condoms filled with ten grams

918
00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:14,040
Speaker 3: of pure cocaine, and he was trying to run to

919
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:17,279
Speaker 3: meet the ride and one of those and these were

920
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:21,120
Speaker 3: in the lower bowel, and one of these ruptured and

921
00:53:21,160 --> 00:53:24,000
Speaker 3: it killed him as he stood there. Now that's cocaine,

922
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:27,919
Speaker 3: and again this is directly absorbed, and so I think

923
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:30,120
Speaker 3: that that's where a lot of this comes from. People

924
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:34,560
Speaker 3: have often have often thought, you know, that is this

925
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:37,719
Speaker 3: even plausible. I don't know. I mean, you're talking about

926
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:41,600
Speaker 3: drugs that are listed as chlorohydrate is actually listed as

927
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:46,960
Speaker 3: a hypnotic. These are drugs that also that you're given

928
00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:52,439
Speaker 3: prior to surgery. Now our benzos that we have out there,

929
00:53:52,560 --> 00:53:55,839
Speaker 3: you think about clonazepam and those sorts of things. These

930
00:53:55,920 --> 00:54:00,400
Speaker 3: drugs were actually prescribed in the past as kind of

931
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:03,439
Speaker 3: people that had high anxiety. But they're so lethal that's

932
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:07,120
Speaker 3: not done anymore. But they are still used as a

933
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:12,400
Speaker 3: precursor for anesthesia, so that tablet that gives you or

934
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:14,960
Speaker 3: that injection that gives you kind of groovy feeling before

935
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:17,640
Speaker 3: you go into that deep, dark black space where you

936
00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:21,520
Speaker 3: have surgery, it can be part of that drug cocktail.

937
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:25,560
Speaker 3: So it's it's it's certainly something to chew on and

938
00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:27,919
Speaker 3: to and to think about, you know, relative to what

939
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:30,560
Speaker 3: may have happened to her and Nagucci. I go back

940
00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:33,319
Speaker 3: to I'm not promoting this book. I'm just saying that's

941
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:35,799
Speaker 3: where this all rose up from. I had them reach

942
00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:38,200
Speaker 3: out to me this week wanting to talk about this

943
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:39,320
Speaker 3: on a local network.

944
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:42,000
Speaker 7: Well, I have to say, and this is off the

945
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:46,359
Speaker 7: pharmacology and onto the Kennedys who you mentioned. So maybe

946
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:49,080
Speaker 7: it's the topic for another time, but I've always wondered

947
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:53,280
Speaker 7: if something happened to Marilyn Rolltt that she was silenced

948
00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:57,280
Speaker 7: because of her relationships with the Yeah exactly, I mean, okay.

949
00:54:57,160 --> 00:54:57,480
Speaker 9: Thank you.

950
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:06,280
Speaker 2: She never should Sorry, sorry, so is Courtney's that's ridiculous. Listen,

951
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:09,480
Speaker 2: we've been talking a lot about the Idaho massacre and

952
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:14,319
Speaker 2: the recent developments with this information shared by law enforcement

953
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:16,680
Speaker 2: of photographs of the crime scenes in some of the

954
00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:19,640
Speaker 2: newer details which are all pretty harrowing. If you have

955
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:23,239
Speaker 2: any comments or feedback you want to jump into the conversation,

956
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:27,160
Speaker 2: please do eight eight eight three one crime. Please call

957
00:55:27,239 --> 00:55:28,920
Speaker 2: us or leave us a message. You could also leave

958
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 2: us a talk back on the iHeart app, or you

959
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:33,680
Speaker 2: could also hit us up on our socials at True

960
00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:37,640
Speaker 2: Crime Tonight's show on Instagram and TikTok, or at True

961
00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:41,239
Speaker 2: Crime Tonight on Facebook. So listen, we're going to put

962
00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:44,399
Speaker 2: Idaho aside for one moment. And then, also, Joseph, you're

963
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:47,720
Speaker 2: talking a lot about this Marilyn Monroe alleged suicide. Perhaps

964
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:51,279
Speaker 2: she was killed. I know all the Armstrongs and lie

965
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:56,800
Speaker 2: Deckers across America are saying yeah, we think so too. Again,

966
00:55:56,840 --> 00:55:58,640
Speaker 2: if you have a comment or want to jump in

967
00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:02,359
Speaker 2: and join the convo, please do. And then there's this

968
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:06,239
Speaker 2: guy who murders his wife while on safari. He's now

969
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:09,120
Speaker 2: being convicted Larry Rudolph Courtney, Do you want to share

970
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:10,400
Speaker 2: a little of the update on that?

971
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:16,040
Speaker 7: Absolutely, this was a weekend watch and I really can't

972
00:56:16,120 --> 00:56:18,400
Speaker 7: recommend it more. It's three parts, but the parts are

973
00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:21,880
Speaker 7: not long. It's on Hulu. It's called Trophy Wife Murder

974
00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:25,680
Speaker 7: on Safari, and in it, it's the story of this

975
00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:29,680
Speaker 7: Pittsburgh area dentist, a guy named Larry Rudolph, and he

976
00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:32,720
Speaker 7: was convicted in twenty twenty two of murdering his wife,

977
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:37,400
Speaker 7: this apparently lovely woman named Bianca, and he did it

978
00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:42,440
Speaker 7: during a hunting safari in Zambia many years prior October

979
00:56:42,480 --> 00:56:49,400
Speaker 7: twenty sixteen. So Larry the dentist staged his wife's death

980
00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:53,200
Speaker 7: and tried to make it appear accidental, and doing that,

981
00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:57,520
Speaker 7: he ended up getting about five million dollars in one

982
00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:01,439
Speaker 7: of the nine life insurance policies he had taken out

983
00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:01,839
Speaker 7: on her.

984
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:08,440
Speaker 2: Nine would you possibly need nine life insurance policies? How

985
00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:11,960
Speaker 2: is that even possible? I mean, bit by bit, you know.

986
00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:16,840
Speaker 7: And this was all so he could start a new

987
00:57:16,920 --> 00:57:21,040
Speaker 7: life with his really long term mistress, this woman named Lorie,

988
00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:27,120
Speaker 7: and prosecutors alleged that she really helped the murder. Thought

989
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:30,280
Speaker 7: it was a great idea to get rid of the wife.

990
00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:31,200
Speaker 2: Yes she did.

991
00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:35,760
Speaker 7: Laurie wanted to live the life that Larry's wife was living.

992
00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:41,400
Speaker 7: And she's in you know this right at the top.

993
00:57:41,640 --> 00:57:45,160
Speaker 7: She is in prison because she helped conceal evidence. She

994
00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:48,160
Speaker 7: definitely benefited with the five million dollars of the nine

995
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:49,480
Speaker 7: life insurance policies.

996
00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:52,720
Speaker 2: Wait, no spoiler alerts here if you haven't seen it yet,

997
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:55,800
Speaker 2: I have not. So this guy goes on safari like

998
00:57:56,240 --> 00:57:59,680
Speaker 2: a prized vacation with his beloved wife, and meantime he

999
00:57:59,720 --> 00:58:04,840
Speaker 2: has a mistress, Lauri and Laurie and Larry. Laurie and Larry.

1000
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:07,880
Speaker 2: How appropriate those two think it's a great idea just

1001
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:10,240
Speaker 2: to knock her off and take a bunch of money.

1002
00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:12,640
Speaker 2: This is the story as old as time, is it?

1003
00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:16,800
Speaker 2: Not a dentist? Is he a dentist? He's a dentist.

1004
00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:21,000
Speaker 7: And maybe my favorite part of this documentary was watching

1005
00:58:21,040 --> 00:58:24,720
Speaker 7: because they really they go back almost twenty years before

1006
00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:28,800
Speaker 7: the murder and up until seven years after, so you

1007
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:32,560
Speaker 7: get the scope. And this guy Larry, Oh, Stephanie, they

1008
00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:35,200
Speaker 7: use the word megalomaniac to describe him.

1009
00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:37,880
Speaker 2: Did you jump up and scream at the television?

1010
00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:38,000
Speaker 9: Yes?

1011
00:58:38,160 --> 00:58:40,560
Speaker 2: I did. Hey, can you tell us again, just because

1012
00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:42,280
Speaker 2: I haven't heard it in a few days? What is

1013
00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:44,760
Speaker 2: megl and nomaniac?

1014
00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:48,479
Speaker 7: Megalomaniac. It's a person who thinks the world centers from them.

1015
00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:54,600
Speaker 7: And this guy with picture cable commercials from the eighties

1016
00:58:54,720 --> 00:58:56,320
Speaker 7: and he's a dentist.

1017
00:58:55,880 --> 00:58:58,040
Speaker 2: And he was like, I'm gonna help.

1018
00:58:57,880 --> 00:59:04,960
Speaker 7: You out, and jack for miles, smiles for miles and listen.

1019
00:59:05,040 --> 00:59:05,840
Speaker 2: It's a good watch.

1020
00:59:05,960 --> 00:59:11,520
Speaker 7: The people they have telling the story, including the children

1021
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:18,520
Speaker 7: of both Larry, yeah, and also of Lourie. Laurie had children. Also,

1022
00:59:19,320 --> 00:59:22,280
Speaker 7: Laurie has, to my knowledge, one daughter. There was one

1023
00:59:22,320 --> 00:59:23,240
Speaker 7: daughter who appeared.

1024
00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:29,120
Speaker 2: Her life is destroyed. Yeah, yeah, lives are destroyed. Yeah

1025
00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:31,720
Speaker 2: that we're ruining the show for anybody, I assume, right,

1026
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:32,080
Speaker 2: we're not.

1027
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:34,680
Speaker 7: No, I mean, it's it's in the top kind of

1028
00:59:34,720 --> 00:59:38,640
Speaker 7: the top line of what happened. But honestly, it is

1029
00:59:38,680 --> 00:59:41,200
Speaker 7: so worth the watch again to see the twenty year

1030
00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:43,040
Speaker 7: lead up and this.

1031
00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:47,760
Speaker 2: Guy, Larry is one hell of a guy.

1032
00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:51,960
Speaker 7: And the people that they have describing what happened in Zambia,

1033
00:59:52,520 --> 00:59:57,360
Speaker 7: it's unbelievable. There's this guy only Yeah, Dan, he was

1034
00:59:57,400 --> 01:00:01,280
Speaker 7: a former US ambassador to Zambia, so he helps helps

1035
01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:04,400
Speaker 7: tell the story. It was complicated with the forensics.

1036
01:00:04,920 --> 01:00:05,320
Speaker 2: Joseph.

1037
01:00:05,520 --> 01:00:09,040
Speaker 3: Joseph, Well, listen, I've been following the story for a

1038
01:00:09,040 --> 01:00:11,800
Speaker 3: long time, long before we actually covered this on Body

1039
01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:14,760
Speaker 3: Bags a couple of years ago when we first got

1040
01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:16,960
Speaker 3: wind of it, because I was so fascinated by it.

1041
01:00:17,680 --> 01:00:20,840
Speaker 3: And the reason I was fascinated by it is like

1042
01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:23,960
Speaker 3: so many perpetrators, and we can call him a perpetrator

1043
01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:28,400
Speaker 3: now right right, Oh, he wanted to dispose of her

1044
01:00:28,560 --> 01:00:32,680
Speaker 3: body there and that was, you know, going back to

1045
01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:36,160
Speaker 3: the work that the constantly did. This guy's sharp as

1046
01:00:36,200 --> 01:00:38,600
Speaker 3: attack and I'm referring to the guy that was with

1047
01:00:38,680 --> 01:00:42,000
Speaker 3: the US consulate. He could not understand the urgency of

1048
01:00:42,080 --> 01:00:45,360
Speaker 3: wanting to have the body cremated. And for some reason,

1049
01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:47,760
Speaker 3: I don't know, maybe this guy's maybe this guy's got

1050
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:50,880
Speaker 3: a future as a medical legal death investigator. Something went

1051
01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:53,880
Speaker 3: off in this guy's brain said this just doesn't this

1052
01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:55,840
Speaker 3: is not rocking the way it should be, and so

1053
01:00:55,960 --> 01:01:00,160
Speaker 3: he's wanting to dispose the body because therein in the body,

1054
01:01:00,920 --> 01:01:05,240
Speaker 3: guess what you had information relative to the range of

1055
01:01:05,280 --> 01:01:07,320
Speaker 3: the fire of the weapon. He wanted to get rid

1056
01:01:07,360 --> 01:01:11,560
Speaker 3: of the body so that would be gone. And it's

1057
01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:14,560
Speaker 3: a real plumb case to go over. I'm glad that

1058
01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:18,320
Speaker 3: they did a doc about this because it's fascinating.

1059
01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:21,720
Speaker 2: Wow. I'm going to have to watch it now. I haven't.

1060
01:01:21,760 --> 01:01:23,240
Speaker 2: I didn't watch it, but I'm going to have to.

1061
01:01:24,520 --> 01:01:25,160
Speaker 2: You should too.

1062
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:28,160
Speaker 4: Please out there an audience, Lang, go watch this documentary

1063
01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:29,480
Speaker 4: so we can talk about it a little bit more

1064
01:01:29,520 --> 01:01:31,800
Speaker 4: and get Joseph back on our show a bunch. You're

1065
01:01:31,840 --> 01:01:34,360
Speaker 4: listening to True Crime Tonight, where we talk true crime

1066
01:01:34,400 --> 01:01:36,360
Speaker 4: all the time. I'm body and I'm here with Stephanie

1067
01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:39,800
Speaker 4: Courtney and forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan. We were just

1068
01:01:39,880 --> 01:01:42,919
Speaker 4: talking about Trophy Life Murder on Safari. You can find

1069
01:01:42,960 --> 01:01:45,000
Speaker 4: it on Hulu. If you want to weigh in with

1070
01:01:45,040 --> 01:01:47,320
Speaker 4: your thoughts, call us at eighty eight thirty one Crime,

1071
01:01:47,840 --> 01:01:50,720
Speaker 4: or you can send us a talkback message. When you're

1072
01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:53,480
Speaker 4: listening on the iHeartRadio app. Just put a little microphone

1073
01:01:53,840 --> 01:01:55,800
Speaker 4: icon on the upper right hand corner and you'll be

1074
01:01:55,840 --> 01:01:58,200
Speaker 4: on the show and we have a talkback right now.

1075
01:01:58,960 --> 01:02:00,560
Speaker 2: Hi, It's Stephanie from Slovenia.

1076
01:02:00,560 --> 01:02:00,720
Speaker 7: Again.

1077
01:02:00,760 --> 01:02:02,080
Speaker 2: I've got a lot of questions for you.

1078
01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:05,680
Speaker 10: So do you think that Brian Colberger applying for the police,

1079
01:02:05,720 --> 01:02:08,520
Speaker 10: if he would have gotten that position that he would have,

1080
01:02:09,200 --> 01:02:13,280
Speaker 10: it would have dissuade him from actually committing this atrocious crime?

1081
01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:15,760
Speaker 2: Or do you think that he would have hidden behind

1082
01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:19,200
Speaker 2: his badge? Oh what a good voice you have, by

1083
01:02:19,240 --> 01:02:22,440
Speaker 2: the way, I mean, honestly like you are. You are

1084
01:02:22,560 --> 01:02:26,040
Speaker 2: meant to be with Allison. Great name, great voice.

1085
01:02:26,120 --> 01:02:31,160
Speaker 4: Come on, I'm going to defer to uh Joseph DiAngelo

1086
01:02:31,240 --> 01:02:34,720
Speaker 4: the Golden State Killer ear On's I don't think it

1087
01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:36,800
Speaker 4: would have. I don't think it would have stopped Brian

1088
01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:40,960
Speaker 4: Coberger from killing I think that you know, uh, the

1089
01:02:40,960 --> 01:02:43,200
Speaker 4: Golden State Killer was a cop, you know, and he

1090
01:02:43,920 --> 01:02:49,920
Speaker 4: obviously was raping women and murdering women for decades and decades.

1091
01:02:50,880 --> 01:02:53,400
Speaker 4: I don't I don't think the badge was strong enough

1092
01:02:53,400 --> 01:02:55,080
Speaker 4: to pull away his urges.

1093
01:02:55,160 --> 01:02:58,080
Speaker 2: What do you guys think? I think he was really

1094
01:02:58,120 --> 01:03:00,560
Speaker 2: into getting a badge. Though you know, we obviously we

1095
01:03:00,600 --> 01:03:03,440
Speaker 2: made the documentary on Peacock. Please check it out. Joseph

1096
01:03:03,640 --> 01:03:07,280
Speaker 2: is you know, so extraordinary in it. By the way,

1097
01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:09,959
Speaker 2: he wanted to be a cop since the tenth grade

1098
01:03:10,040 --> 01:03:12,720
Speaker 2: or eleventh grade. So this was the guy we were

1099
01:03:12,720 --> 01:03:15,920
Speaker 2: told by a school official that he was like ooh, ooh,

1100
01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:18,200
Speaker 2: me me, the guy in like the front of the row,

1101
01:03:18,360 --> 01:03:20,280
Speaker 2: like answering all the questions to be the star of

1102
01:03:20,400 --> 01:03:23,720
Speaker 2: cop class, which he was literally in in eleventh grade.

1103
01:03:24,240 --> 01:03:26,640
Speaker 2: And then something went a little wonky with you know,

1104
01:03:27,040 --> 01:03:29,760
Speaker 2: two classmates and they said he was a little off,

1105
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:33,320
Speaker 2: and boom, he got booted from cop class and this

1106
01:03:33,440 --> 01:03:36,840
Speaker 2: program that was very you know, prestigious. He would have

1107
01:03:36,840 --> 01:03:39,640
Speaker 2: been in law enforcement, so they kicked him out. Did

1108
01:03:39,640 --> 01:03:43,440
Speaker 2: that become his his sort of break with law enforcement? Yeah,

1109
01:03:43,480 --> 01:03:46,440
Speaker 2: and then he went on to be a security officer,

1110
01:03:46,560 --> 01:03:49,160
Speaker 2: which is also pretty harrowing. We've heard this now after

1111
01:03:49,240 --> 01:03:52,720
Speaker 2: high school. I think this is a guy who really

1112
01:03:52,840 --> 01:03:57,880
Speaker 2: wanted to attach to law enforcement in some way and

1113
01:03:58,320 --> 01:04:03,080
Speaker 2: felt excluded either from law enforcement or from ladies in general,

1114
01:04:03,760 --> 01:04:08,440
Speaker 2: and somehow there was a perfect storm of weird at COVID.

1115
01:04:08,760 --> 01:04:12,480
Speaker 2: It's also a tale about isolation, ed isolation. This is

1116
01:04:12,520 --> 01:04:15,960
Speaker 2: a guy that you know, had zero friends because he

1117
01:04:16,120 --> 01:04:19,760
Speaker 2: was weird. And you know, did that foster this behavior

1118
01:04:19,920 --> 01:04:22,080
Speaker 2: in this foster what would become a monster?

1119
01:04:23,560 --> 01:04:27,120
Speaker 4: Well, you know, he he just stayed. He's stuff. Sorry,

1120
01:04:27,160 --> 01:04:31,280
Speaker 4: he destabilized, Like he moved from his familial home right

1121
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:35,200
Speaker 4: and moved as far away as you can from the

1122
01:04:35,200 --> 01:04:39,400
Speaker 4: state of Pennsylvania Washington straight right. And he's got this

1123
01:04:39,840 --> 01:04:41,880
Speaker 4: attachment to his mother, which we're going to be talking

1124
01:04:41,920 --> 01:04:45,480
Speaker 4: about in the next segment, so please stay tuned. He's

1125
01:04:45,480 --> 01:04:47,840
Speaker 4: got this attachment to his mother. He's his and he's

1126
01:04:47,880 --> 01:04:51,440
Speaker 4: getting in trouble. The position is to stabilizing, like in

1127
01:04:51,520 --> 01:04:54,520
Speaker 4: real time. Very true, It's so true. It's all crumbling.

1128
01:04:55,000 --> 01:04:57,320
Speaker 4: And by the way, he would have been a nightmare.

1129
01:04:57,360 --> 01:05:00,080
Speaker 4: Cop into to the original.

1130
01:04:59,720 --> 01:05:05,240
Speaker 2: Question, this guy with a badge would have been a

1131
01:05:05,600 --> 01:05:09,760
Speaker 2: total nightmare. So yes, I do think he would have

1132
01:05:09,840 --> 01:05:11,640
Speaker 2: loved it. Yes, I do think he would have hid

1133
01:05:11,680 --> 01:05:13,959
Speaker 2: behind it. And yes, I personally think he still would

1134
01:05:13,960 --> 01:05:16,440
Speaker 2: have struck. He just would have felt more empowered to

1135
01:05:16,440 --> 01:05:18,600
Speaker 2: do so and do it again and again and again.

1136
01:05:19,200 --> 01:05:19,920
Speaker 2: My two cents.

1137
01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:23,880
Speaker 4: Wow, what do you think, Courtney?

1138
01:05:23,880 --> 01:05:29,040
Speaker 7: I'm sorry, Hey, I also agree that even though Stephanie mentioned,

1139
01:05:29,120 --> 01:05:32,560
Speaker 7: you know, potentially the point of him being disenfranchised from

1140
01:05:32,640 --> 01:05:36,120
Speaker 7: not becoming the police through his high school. I think

1141
01:05:36,160 --> 01:05:41,240
Speaker 7: this was an inevitability with him, and whichever turned the

1142
01:05:41,320 --> 01:05:44,640
Speaker 7: road made very sadly, I think it would have ended

1143
01:05:44,640 --> 01:05:47,200
Speaker 7: how it did and more and proliferated.

1144
01:05:48,040 --> 01:05:51,920
Speaker 2: So a good question, Yeah, Joseph, what do you.

1145
01:05:51,920 --> 01:05:57,880
Speaker 3: Think police departments are para military organizations? It would have

1146
01:05:57,920 --> 01:05:59,840
Speaker 3: been hell for the people on the street that would

1147
01:05:59,840 --> 01:06:03,880
Speaker 3: have encountered him as submitting population, but he would have

1148
01:06:03,880 --> 01:06:06,680
Speaker 3: played hell inside the organization as well, because you have

1149
01:06:06,720 --> 01:06:09,440
Speaker 3: a rank structure. This guy does not do well with

1150
01:06:09,480 --> 01:06:14,000
Speaker 3: the rank structure. Look how he treated his supervising EHD

1151
01:06:14,640 --> 01:06:18,720
Speaker 3: right at Washington. If you have that kind of boldness

1152
01:06:18,760 --> 01:06:22,040
Speaker 3: about you, if he insert you know, he's got to

1153
01:06:22,080 --> 01:06:24,960
Speaker 3: be the smartest guy in the room. You know, he's

1154
01:06:25,000 --> 01:06:28,960
Speaker 3: always talking over people. He probably doesn't listen except for

1155
01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:32,520
Speaker 3: those things he puts value on. And you put him

1156
01:06:32,560 --> 01:06:35,880
Speaker 3: into a law enforcement environment and it's a train wreck.

1157
01:06:35,920 --> 01:06:41,760
Speaker 3: You're begging for a catastrophe from that perspective. And also, Buddy,

1158
01:06:41,800 --> 01:06:44,000
Speaker 3: I gotta tell you I could not agree with you

1159
01:06:44,040 --> 01:06:47,919
Speaker 3: more about Angelo because I thought about that. I thought

1160
01:06:48,000 --> 01:06:51,120
Speaker 3: that that's the golden ticket. If you're a cop and

1161
01:06:51,160 --> 01:06:54,640
Speaker 3: you're the sinister person, that's the golden ticket to get

1162
01:06:54,680 --> 01:06:58,760
Speaker 3: access to people at their most vulnerable moments, just like

1163
01:06:58,880 --> 01:06:59,680
Speaker 3: DiAngelo did.

1164
01:07:00,000 --> 01:07:03,240
Speaker 4: Absolutely right. Well, stick around, we have more coming up.

1165
01:07:03,640 --> 01:07:05,680
Speaker 4: We're going to dig into some of the forensics that

1166
01:07:05,720 --> 01:07:08,920
Speaker 4: are found on Brian Cobergers phone. Keep it right here,

1167
01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:11,880
Speaker 4: True crime tonight. We're talking true crime all the time.

1168
01:07:22,480 --> 01:07:25,160
Speaker 2: And listen, there's been so much to unpack. It's always

1169
01:07:25,160 --> 01:07:27,960
Speaker 2: this balance between figuring out what can we cover and

1170
01:07:28,040 --> 01:07:30,280
Speaker 2: how do we get to our talkbacks and callers, So

1171
01:07:30,720 --> 01:07:32,840
Speaker 2: bear with us. I think we're going to jump to

1172
01:07:32,880 --> 01:07:35,160
Speaker 2: a caller real quick. Here's a talkback.

1173
01:07:35,440 --> 01:07:38,400
Speaker 6: It is mean, ladies, this is time, just a Nashville,

1174
01:07:38,640 --> 01:07:40,760
Speaker 6: and I have a question. Okay to you guys have

1175
01:07:40,920 --> 01:07:43,800
Speaker 6: been covering along with everybody else in the country, but

1176
01:07:43,840 --> 01:07:45,960
Speaker 6: I don't really want to use the killer's name, or

1177
01:07:46,040 --> 01:07:48,960
Speaker 6: his initials or even his inmate numbers. I'm just going

1178
01:07:49,040 --> 01:07:51,720
Speaker 6: to call him inmate the zero, but I'll call off

1179
01:07:51,760 --> 01:07:54,040
Speaker 6: hand exactly how long it was estimated that he was

1180
01:07:54,080 --> 01:07:56,760
Speaker 6: in the house and none of the murders. But I've

1181
01:07:56,760 --> 01:07:59,680
Speaker 6: been trying to wrap my head around how physically texting

1182
01:07:59,720 --> 01:08:02,360
Speaker 6: it a band to commit for murders with the number

1183
01:08:02,400 --> 01:08:05,480
Speaker 6: of staff rings he inflicted on his dictis. I know

1184
01:08:05,640 --> 01:08:07,880
Speaker 6: he's lost a lot of weight thro his younger days,

1185
01:08:07,960 --> 01:08:10,800
Speaker 6: so maybe he was possibly still working out. But do

1186
01:08:10,840 --> 01:08:13,240
Speaker 6: you think that he could have hate to even say

1187
01:08:13,280 --> 01:08:16,400
Speaker 6: it like this, trained for this or do you think

1188
01:08:16,560 --> 01:08:19,599
Speaker 6: he's adrenaline kicked in and he was working slowly off

1189
01:08:19,640 --> 01:08:23,599
Speaker 6: of that? Great question, you guys think and I've missed

1190
01:08:23,680 --> 01:08:28,920
Speaker 6: having Stephanie on board, so I mess for a genuine surprise, outrage,

1191
01:08:29,120 --> 01:08:31,920
Speaker 6: astonishment when you guys discuss details of the case of

1192
01:08:32,040 --> 01:08:34,960
Speaker 6: looking forward to her turn. Absolutely love the show.

1193
01:08:35,360 --> 01:08:39,400
Speaker 2: Thanks guys, you're so sweet. I swear there's no money

1194
01:08:39,640 --> 01:08:44,280
Speaker 2: exchanged for that kindness. Well, we all feel the exact

1195
01:08:44,560 --> 01:08:48,679
Speaker 2: same way. Is so lovely. Thank you for the sweet words.

1196
01:08:49,040 --> 01:08:51,400
Speaker 2: This is such a great question because I think we

1197
01:08:51,439 --> 01:08:54,160
Speaker 2: all have a very real answer to it. Joseph, what

1198
01:08:54,200 --> 01:08:55,040
Speaker 2: do you say? First?

1199
01:08:55,320 --> 01:08:58,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that there wasn't adrenaline dump in the beginning.

1200
01:08:59,120 --> 01:09:01,360
Speaker 3: And again I still hole to the idea that this

1201
01:09:01,600 --> 01:09:06,559
Speaker 3: was a sexually motivated event. So he's hyper sexualized at

1202
01:09:06,560 --> 01:09:09,960
Speaker 3: this point because he's been fantasizing about this. You get

1203
01:09:09,960 --> 01:09:12,360
Speaker 3: the adrenaline dump and then if you walk into this

1204
01:09:12,479 --> 01:09:16,400
Speaker 3: environment and there's more people than you expected, you're going

1205
01:09:16,479 --> 01:09:19,360
Speaker 3: to get a subsequent dump as well. So if you

1206
01:09:20,840 --> 01:09:24,240
Speaker 3: master the people on the top floor and then you

1207
01:09:24,360 --> 01:09:27,040
Speaker 3: have to go downstairs and do it again, Yeah, I

1208
01:09:27,040 --> 01:09:29,360
Speaker 3: think that that's going to play a big role into this,

1209
01:09:29,640 --> 01:09:33,760
Speaker 3: and I think that's what was energizing him throughout this

1210
01:09:34,160 --> 01:09:35,640
Speaker 3: entire entire situation.

1211
01:09:36,320 --> 01:09:39,120
Speaker 4: And we know from Histrava history, which is like a

1212
01:09:39,200 --> 01:09:43,280
Speaker 4: running app that tracks your runs, he was running quite

1213
01:09:43,280 --> 01:09:46,160
Speaker 4: a bit, he was training and so to speak, so

1214
01:09:46,240 --> 01:09:49,519
Speaker 4: he had endurance, right. So I think that it's a

1215
01:09:49,680 --> 01:09:53,160
Speaker 4: really good question, and I think that he was physically fit.

1216
01:09:53,320 --> 01:09:54,800
Speaker 4: I think he was ready for this. I think he

1217
01:09:54,920 --> 01:09:56,760
Speaker 4: definitely prepared for it. I don't know if you want

1218
01:09:56,760 --> 01:09:59,160
Speaker 4: to call it training or not, but I do think

1219
01:09:59,240 --> 01:10:01,840
Speaker 4: it's definitely possible. And I think what I'm going to

1220
01:10:01,880 --> 01:10:04,799
Speaker 4: talk about next might shed a little bit of insight

1221
01:10:04,840 --> 01:10:10,240
Speaker 4: on that. So celebrate and celebrate is the software that

1222
01:10:10,280 --> 01:10:15,240
Speaker 4: does like digital forensics, you know, digging on electronic devices

1223
01:10:15,280 --> 01:10:18,080
Speaker 4: like cell phones, and their standard throughout the country.

1224
01:10:18,080 --> 01:10:18,719
Speaker 2: So celebrate.

1225
01:10:18,840 --> 01:10:23,840
Speaker 4: Senior Director of Forensic Research, Heather Barnhart and her colleague

1226
01:10:24,120 --> 01:10:27,040
Speaker 4: Jared Barnhart, who is the head of strategy and advocacy.

1227
01:10:28,000 --> 01:10:32,839
Speaker 4: They sifted through Brian Coberger's phone data, uncovering a chilling pattern.

1228
01:10:32,880 --> 01:10:36,519
Speaker 4: Now they were hired by the state to testify a trial.

1229
01:10:36,600 --> 01:10:41,000
Speaker 4: Since there's no trial, they did an interview with The Independent. Okay,

1230
01:10:41,000 --> 01:10:46,000
Speaker 4: which is a publication in this article came out very recently,

1231
01:10:46,000 --> 01:10:51,639
Speaker 4: I think yesterday, and it's it's incredible. So at exactly

1232
01:10:51,680 --> 01:10:55,280
Speaker 4: two fifty four am, during the window when prosecutors say

1233
01:10:55,320 --> 01:10:59,160
Speaker 4: the killings occurred, Coburger's phone went dark. But it wasn't

1234
01:10:59,200 --> 01:11:03,719
Speaker 4: just a simple power down. He deliberately disabled Wi Fi,

1235
01:11:04,280 --> 01:11:08,679
Speaker 4: then disabled his cellular service and location tracking, then shut

1236
01:11:08,760 --> 01:11:12,720
Speaker 4: down his device entirely and forensically speaking, this is how

1237
01:11:12,760 --> 01:11:15,400
Speaker 4: you do it, Okay, this is how you do it.

1238
01:11:15,680 --> 01:11:19,760
Speaker 4: For nearly two hours, his digital presence vanished. At four

1239
01:11:19,960 --> 01:11:22,760
Speaker 4: forty eight am, the phone came back to life as

1240
01:11:22,800 --> 01:11:26,160
Speaker 4: if nothing had happened. But the blackout wasn't the only

1241
01:11:26,200 --> 01:11:30,280
Speaker 4: thing hiding in his phone. Barnhardt found evidence of a

1242
01:11:30,320 --> 01:11:34,439
Speaker 4: man steeped in criminal research PDF case files detailed reports

1243
01:11:34,439 --> 01:11:38,360
Speaker 4: on serial killers, for instance, like Danny Rawling who is

1244
01:11:38,439 --> 01:11:41,920
Speaker 4: the Gainesville Ripper, which we've been talking about before who

1245
01:11:42,080 --> 01:11:44,760
Speaker 4: used a K bar on college students in the past,

1246
01:11:45,080 --> 01:11:49,200
Speaker 4: and a trail of private browsing sessions routed through VPNs.

1247
01:11:49,720 --> 01:11:54,400
Speaker 4: He scrubbed, hid and deleted, yet fragments remained. Painting a

1248
01:11:54,439 --> 01:11:58,000
Speaker 4: portrait of an obsess of I'm sorry, painting a portrait

1249
01:11:58,040 --> 01:12:01,960
Speaker 4: of a session in planning. So, reviewing this data, Heather

1250
01:12:02,120 --> 01:12:06,240
Speaker 4: Barnhardt didn't head her words. She said, Hoberger hadn't stumbled

1251
01:12:06,240 --> 01:12:09,559
Speaker 4: into this. He acted. He did not act on a whim.

1252
01:12:10,040 --> 01:12:12,640
Speaker 4: He prepared, she said, And I'm using quotes when I

1253
01:12:12,640 --> 01:12:16,559
Speaker 4: say he prepared. In that quiet digital evidence, investigators found

1254
01:12:16,600 --> 01:12:19,360
Speaker 4: the story of a man who meticulously set the stage

1255
01:12:19,360 --> 01:12:22,240
Speaker 4: for murder and thought he had erased the footprints he

1256
01:12:22,320 --> 01:12:27,040
Speaker 4: left behind. So to our talkback, yeah, he trained. He

1257
01:12:27,160 --> 01:12:27,840
Speaker 4: definitely trained.

1258
01:12:28,040 --> 01:12:29,840
Speaker 2: And by the way, I think, Joseph, you and I

1259
01:12:29,920 --> 01:12:32,120
Speaker 2: discussed this very early on. You were the one that's

1260
01:12:32,120 --> 01:12:35,840
Speaker 2: put this in my head that he was probably practicing

1261
01:12:36,000 --> 01:12:40,200
Speaker 2: with his k bar, just flipping open the sheath and

1262
01:12:40,240 --> 01:12:42,600
Speaker 2: practicing taking out a knife and putting it back in

1263
01:12:42,720 --> 01:12:45,280
Speaker 2: and taking it out, putting it back in. We know

1264
01:12:45,400 --> 01:12:49,879
Speaker 2: this was planned, so yeah, physically, he was likely training

1265
01:12:50,160 --> 01:12:52,960
Speaker 2: knowing full way there was going to be this big moment.

1266
01:12:53,040 --> 01:12:55,599
Speaker 2: He was doing polls about it, you know, and this

1267
01:12:55,640 --> 01:12:57,880
Speaker 2: is a guy that took his like weight so seriously,

1268
01:12:58,040 --> 01:13:00,200
Speaker 2: so I'm with you guys. I think he was is

1269
01:13:00,240 --> 01:13:01,519
Speaker 2: for sure training right.

1270
01:13:02,000 --> 01:13:05,160
Speaker 3: So I'm sorry justin no, no, I was just going

1271
01:13:05,240 --> 01:13:07,200
Speaker 3: to say, I concur and I think that with the

1272
01:13:07,240 --> 01:13:10,920
Speaker 3: digital evidence, this is just further you know, backs this

1273
01:13:10,960 --> 01:13:15,280
Speaker 3: whole idea up. And there's there's a term in the

1274
01:13:15,360 --> 01:13:20,880
Speaker 3: law I n T e n T intent and so

1275
01:13:21,040 --> 01:13:26,559
Speaker 3: this goes to intent body. I think that it's fascinating also,

1276
01:13:26,680 --> 01:13:30,240
Speaker 3: and there's nothing wrong with having a VPN, right, I mean,

1277
01:13:30,280 --> 01:13:32,920
Speaker 3: there's there's nothing wrong with it, and I understand why

1278
01:13:32,960 --> 01:13:36,800
Speaker 3: people do it. But he had the VPN on his phone.

1279
01:13:36,880 --> 01:13:41,080
Speaker 3: They came up with that as well. So with the encryption,

1280
01:13:41,800 --> 01:13:45,640
Speaker 3: it's sending this this thing to different locations so that

1281
01:13:45,720 --> 01:13:49,200
Speaker 3: it doesn't come back to him again, another brick in

1282
01:13:49,280 --> 01:13:52,519
Speaker 3: building this this house of intent, if you will, or

1283
01:13:52,560 --> 01:13:56,320
Speaker 3: foundation of intent. I think that that's that's a fascinating

1284
01:13:56,800 --> 01:13:59,599
Speaker 3: thing as well. And he's going to be he listen,

1285
01:13:59,680 --> 01:14:01,760
Speaker 3: he knows he's going to be paining off of these

1286
01:14:01,760 --> 01:14:04,760
Speaker 3: cell towers and the idea that he goes dark during

1287
01:14:04,760 --> 01:14:08,439
Speaker 3: this period of time. I found it very interesting that

1288
01:14:08,760 --> 01:14:12,880
Speaker 3: one of the examiners actually stated that he made this

1289
01:14:13,280 --> 01:14:15,960
Speaker 3: very difficult for us. Yes, and these are people that

1290
01:14:16,080 --> 01:14:21,040
Speaker 3: deal with very difficult situations in trying to kind of

1291
01:14:21,560 --> 01:14:27,880
Speaker 3: unwind forensic data. It's an amazing field. These people are

1292
01:14:27,920 --> 01:14:30,639
Speaker 3: really good at what they do, and the fact that

1293
01:14:30,720 --> 01:14:33,559
Speaker 3: he made it difficult for them really goes It gives

1294
01:14:33,560 --> 01:14:35,080
Speaker 3: you an insight into his planning.

1295
01:14:35,920 --> 01:14:39,280
Speaker 4: Despite all the planning he did, and Jared did say,

1296
01:14:39,400 --> 01:14:42,439
Speaker 4: this is someone who tried really hard not to be detected.

1297
01:14:42,840 --> 01:14:46,600
Speaker 4: But despite all the measures that Brian Coberger took, investigators

1298
01:14:46,600 --> 01:14:49,320
Speaker 4: did find quite a bit. They found that he had

1299
01:14:49,320 --> 01:14:53,840
Speaker 4: downloaded reports on the Idaho murders and did extensive searches

1300
01:14:53,880 --> 01:14:54,559
Speaker 4: on the victims.

1301
01:14:56,280 --> 01:14:58,320
Speaker 2: Sat through the fact.

1302
01:14:57,720 --> 01:15:00,599
Speaker 4: Of course, because I mean the idle he's downloading reports

1303
01:15:00,640 --> 01:15:02,799
Speaker 4: on the murders as well as.

1304
01:15:02,840 --> 01:15:04,479
Speaker 2: These extensive searches for the victims.

1305
01:15:04,479 --> 01:15:04,639
Speaker 3: Act.

1306
01:15:04,680 --> 01:15:06,640
Speaker 2: Do you think he felt guilty, maybe like he was

1307
01:15:06,680 --> 01:15:10,320
Speaker 2: maybe feuling some remorse and he was looking into it.

1308
01:15:10,760 --> 01:15:10,880
Speaker 5: No.

1309
01:15:12,000 --> 01:15:12,799
Speaker 2: I think he took.

1310
01:15:12,720 --> 01:15:17,240
Speaker 4: Great pleasure in knowing how wonderful these these these young

1311
01:15:17,280 --> 01:15:20,080
Speaker 4: adults work. I keep wanting to say kids, young adults.

1312
01:15:20,120 --> 01:15:22,639
Speaker 4: I'm fifty on these are kids to me. I think

1313
01:15:22,680 --> 01:15:26,320
Speaker 4: he took a lot of pleasure knowing how much pain

1314
01:15:26,360 --> 01:15:30,600
Speaker 4: he caused. I really do. Yeah, Now this and this

1315
01:15:30,680 --> 01:15:34,679
Speaker 4: is interesting. Why find network logs showing his phone passively

1316
01:15:34,680 --> 01:15:36,599
Speaker 4: seeking out networks as you're walking through?

1317
01:15:36,680 --> 01:15:36,920
Speaker 2: Right?

1318
01:15:37,560 --> 01:15:41,800
Speaker 4: One notable log tied his device to the mad Greek

1319
01:15:42,760 --> 01:15:44,599
Speaker 4: and the mad Greek if you don't, if you're not

1320
01:15:44,640 --> 01:15:48,160
Speaker 4: fully conversant, the mad Greek is where Zanna and Maddie worked.

1321
01:15:48,600 --> 01:15:51,120
Speaker 4: Now we don't know from the article because they used

1322
01:15:51,160 --> 01:15:54,439
Speaker 4: different verbs. And I'm in tech, so I understand these

1323
01:15:54,520 --> 01:15:57,800
Speaker 4: these words, but they're not super clear on whether if

1324
01:15:57,840 --> 01:16:02,559
Speaker 4: he joined the network or if he just it just

1325
01:16:02,680 --> 01:16:03,679
Speaker 4: popped up on his phone.

1326
01:16:04,360 --> 01:16:04,960
Speaker 2: They're not clear.

1327
01:16:05,080 --> 01:16:09,599
Speaker 4: They use both terms interchangeably and they're very different. They

1328
01:16:09,640 --> 01:16:12,080
Speaker 4: say passive in one and then they say joined in another.

1329
01:16:12,160 --> 01:16:13,439
Speaker 4: So I'm not clear.

1330
01:16:14,840 --> 01:16:17,400
Speaker 7: But it is so interesting since the Mad Greek, I mean,

1331
01:16:17,439 --> 01:16:20,400
Speaker 7: this has been something that's been discussed by many. Did

1332
01:16:20,439 --> 01:16:24,800
Speaker 7: he indeed go and actually see any of the victims there?

1333
01:16:25,640 --> 01:16:27,400
Speaker 2: And for the record, the Mad Greek if you don't

1334
01:16:27,400 --> 01:16:30,639
Speaker 2: know what that is, it's this Vegan restaurant in Towns.

1335
01:16:32,720 --> 01:16:35,080
Speaker 2: They have vegan food there and one of the only

1336
01:16:35,840 --> 01:16:39,200
Speaker 2: in the area, So we know this murderer was a vegan,

1337
01:16:39,479 --> 01:16:41,679
Speaker 2: so likely he would have gone there. And we also

1338
01:16:41,800 --> 01:16:44,920
Speaker 2: know that Madison Mogen and you know Xaner Kernodle were

1339
01:16:44,960 --> 01:16:49,320
Speaker 2: also waitresses there at one point and worked there. By

1340
01:16:49,360 --> 01:16:51,320
Speaker 2: the way, in the documentary, we had to take it

1341
01:16:51,360 --> 01:16:55,799
Speaker 2: out because there really wasn't any proof about the mad Greek.

1342
01:16:56,000 --> 01:16:59,080
Speaker 2: So that was one of the many, many details that

1343
01:16:59,120 --> 01:17:02,880
Speaker 2: we had to really legally leave out because it wasn't

1344
01:17:02,920 --> 01:17:05,960
Speaker 2: one hundred percent facts, right, And now we know that

1345
01:17:05,960 --> 01:17:11,080
Speaker 2: that was at least a path crost, right, and how

1346
01:17:11,640 --> 01:17:14,880
Speaker 2: ponting that is also right? Put it back in? Can

1347
01:17:14,920 --> 01:17:16,240
Speaker 2: you can you put it back in? Then we're gonna

1348
01:17:16,240 --> 01:17:16,439
Speaker 2: go back.

1349
01:17:16,640 --> 01:17:20,360
Speaker 4: Well, the other section of this article talks about his

1350
01:17:20,439 --> 01:17:24,880
Speaker 4: relationship with his mother, and it's very interesting. In call

1351
01:17:24,960 --> 01:17:29,000
Speaker 4: and text record show he contacted his parents incessantly, starting

1352
01:17:29,200 --> 01:17:32,880
Speaker 4: starting the morning after the murders. So this is what

1353
01:17:32,920 --> 01:17:35,840
Speaker 4: she said, Starting at six thirteen am the morning after

1354
01:17:35,880 --> 01:17:38,920
Speaker 4: the murders, he's calling and texting his mom and dad

1355
01:17:39,160 --> 01:17:45,280
Speaker 4: non stop. It was incessant, Heather said, interesting, interesting, right,

1356
01:17:45,320 --> 01:17:47,000
Speaker 4: which we know, and that's a relationship.

1357
01:17:47,080 --> 01:17:48,840
Speaker 2: We learned that from dateline and we weren't sure if

1358
01:17:48,840 --> 01:17:49,320
Speaker 2: it was true.

1359
01:17:49,479 --> 01:17:49,639
Speaker 4: Right.

1360
01:17:49,640 --> 01:17:52,840
Speaker 2: We also learned that even right before he was actually

1361
01:17:52,920 --> 01:17:55,599
Speaker 2: sentenced or was saying I'm guilty and you know, went

1362
01:17:55,640 --> 01:17:58,880
Speaker 2: to his you know what is it called why might

1363
01:17:59,000 --> 01:18:02,520
Speaker 2: change his when he changed his plea that you know infamous?

1364
01:18:02,680 --> 01:18:04,639
Speaker 2: You know day what is it a month ago now

1365
01:18:04,960 --> 01:18:07,280
Speaker 2: that he was you know, with his mom calling her

1366
01:18:07,360 --> 01:18:10,000
Speaker 2: on the phone all day, all night from the jail

1367
01:18:10,000 --> 01:18:12,240
Speaker 2: he was being housed in. This is around the phone

1368
01:18:12,240 --> 01:18:14,400
Speaker 2: with his mom, right, Jared said.

1369
01:18:14,439 --> 01:18:16,680
Speaker 4: The moment we started to look at the messaging, it

1370
01:18:16,760 --> 01:18:19,519
Speaker 4: made me think of the Bates Motel, referencing the movie

1371
01:18:19,560 --> 01:18:21,200
Speaker 4: Psycho right in Norman Bates.

1372
01:18:21,520 --> 01:18:22,479
Speaker 2: And here's what he says.

1373
01:18:22,800 --> 01:18:25,719
Speaker 4: I mean it was like mother and the label mother

1374
01:18:26,320 --> 01:18:28,439
Speaker 4: and the constant contact with his mom.

1375
01:18:28,600 --> 01:18:30,479
Speaker 2: It was wild. That's a direct quote.

1376
01:18:30,680 --> 01:18:33,040
Speaker 4: This is a professional We should unpack this.

1377
01:18:33,640 --> 01:18:38,679
Speaker 3: I know, I would love to see a spreadsheet relative

1378
01:18:38,720 --> 01:18:42,080
Speaker 3: to the frequency before me too homicides where he was

1379
01:18:42,120 --> 01:18:45,720
Speaker 3: calling Mama and daddy too, and then afterwards just to

1380
01:18:45,800 --> 01:18:47,280
Speaker 3: kind of compare and contrast here.

1381
01:18:47,400 --> 01:18:49,120
Speaker 2: I want the whole celebrate report.

1382
01:18:49,400 --> 01:18:54,920
Speaker 4: Email me hello at body mooveing dot com.

1383
01:18:54,960 --> 01:18:56,200
Speaker 2: This is also very interesting.

1384
01:18:56,240 --> 01:18:58,759
Speaker 4: On December twenty ninth, this is the day before the arrest,

1385
01:18:59,360 --> 01:19:03,519
Speaker 4: Coberger began calling and texting his parents obsessively, just like

1386
01:19:03,560 --> 01:19:06,800
Speaker 4: he had the morning of the murders. But I don't

1387
01:19:06,840 --> 01:19:09,720
Speaker 4: know why he's calling them. He's at their host but whatever.

1388
01:19:09,479 --> 01:19:11,280
Speaker 2: Right, he's started for in the basement, this guy. So

1389
01:19:11,320 --> 01:19:14,120
Speaker 2: he had a very real relationship. His mom was very

1390
01:19:14,120 --> 01:19:16,639
Speaker 2: protective of him, right, because he was this odd, weird

1391
01:19:16,760 --> 01:19:20,000
Speaker 2: kid that she was probably trying to protect, right.

1392
01:19:20,360 --> 01:19:22,759
Speaker 7: Yeah, And there's a lot more of this will keep

1393
01:19:22,880 --> 01:19:26,360
Speaker 7: unpacking during the week and as the information unfolds, as

1394
01:19:26,360 --> 01:19:29,440
Speaker 7: it will continue to as the court releases documents.

1395
01:19:29,920 --> 01:19:32,760
Speaker 2: We're talking true crime all the time. I'm Steph here

1396
01:19:32,760 --> 01:19:35,599
Speaker 2: with Courtney and body and of course Joseph Scott Morgan,

1397
01:19:35,640 --> 01:19:39,920
Speaker 2: forensics expert and host of the podcast Body Bags three

1398
01:19:40,240 --> 01:19:43,920
Speaker 2: a week he does. So if you have not tuned

1399
01:19:43,960 --> 01:19:46,800
Speaker 2: in to listen, do you tune into a podcast? Yeah

1400
01:19:46,840 --> 01:19:50,439
Speaker 2: you can, ish make sure you download his podcast three

1401
01:19:50,479 --> 01:19:54,559
Speaker 2: times a week. That's three body Bags cases. And he's

1402
01:19:54,640 --> 01:19:57,080
Speaker 2: just the best and they're so good. So more of

1403
01:19:57,120 --> 01:19:59,760
Speaker 2: that and more of him to come. And also this

1404
01:19:59,800 --> 01:20:02,479
Speaker 2: week listen, we have a lot to cover. I haven't

1405
01:20:02,479 --> 01:20:05,320
Speaker 2: heard too much of you guys talking about Epstein, So

1406
01:20:05,520 --> 01:20:07,200
Speaker 2: we're gonna have to do a proper ketchup on that

1407
01:20:07,280 --> 01:20:12,080
Speaker 2: tomorrow because I have plenty listens my vacation. Okay, fine, fine, man,

1408
01:20:12,240 --> 01:20:14,320
Speaker 2: So we do have to do a little unpack about

1409
01:20:14,320 --> 01:20:19,599
Speaker 2: that tomorrow for sure. Remember, everybody, we have talkback Tuesdays happening,

1410
01:20:19,840 --> 01:20:22,280
Speaker 2: so listen. If we didn't get to your talk back tonight,

1411
01:20:22,360 --> 01:20:26,600
Speaker 2: it's just because we've been blabbering too much. And I apologize,

1412
01:20:26,600 --> 01:20:30,559
Speaker 2: but them is literally let's just let's just blame me.

1413
01:20:30,960 --> 01:20:34,120
Speaker 2: And that said, we have talkback Tuesdays coming up, so

1414
01:20:34,160 --> 01:20:37,240
Speaker 2: make sure you start bringing them. Just download the iHeart

1415
01:20:37,280 --> 01:20:40,720
Speaker 2: app top right hand corner, leave, push the button, leave

1416
01:20:40,760 --> 01:20:43,439
Speaker 2: a message, and boom you are on the show. And

1417
01:20:43,720 --> 01:20:45,280
Speaker 2: I don't know what to tell you, but this Maril

1418
01:20:45,320 --> 01:20:48,559
Speaker 2: Monroe thing has got me stumped. So if you have

1419
01:20:48,600 --> 01:20:51,759
Speaker 2: any comments about that, please let us know as well.

1420
01:20:51,800 --> 01:20:56,080
Speaker 2: This night has flown by me. Anything you want to share.

1421
01:20:56,520 --> 01:21:01,360
Speaker 7: I mean, I also, I honestly, my cackles or hackles

1422
01:21:01,479 --> 01:21:04,320
Speaker 7: or whatever, raise is got so high when you mentioned

1423
01:21:04,360 --> 01:21:07,720
Speaker 7: that the same corner treated both Marilyn Monroe and the Kennedys,

1424
01:21:07,760 --> 01:21:11,120
Speaker 7: and yeah, so I'm just going to be I don't know,

1425
01:21:11,240 --> 01:21:13,040
Speaker 7: doing some conspiratorial research.

1426
01:21:13,360 --> 01:21:15,120
Speaker 4: That's I think we should talk about that case a

1427
01:21:15,160 --> 01:21:17,280
Speaker 4: little bit more. Actually, yeah, very interesting.

1428
01:21:17,560 --> 01:21:19,600
Speaker 2: You always doing the best cases, Joseph.

1429
01:21:19,600 --> 01:21:21,760
Speaker 3: We're gonna we're gonna be talking about it on Bodybacks.

1430
01:21:21,760 --> 01:21:26,320
Speaker 3: I can assure major episode us know it. And also

1431
01:21:26,520 --> 01:21:30,080
Speaker 3: we're going to be doing a retrospective on the career

1432
01:21:30,120 --> 01:21:33,760
Speaker 3: of doctor Magucci. So that's going to be really cool

1433
01:21:33,760 --> 01:21:37,040
Speaker 3: as well. David aren planning planning stages of that. But

1434
01:21:37,360 --> 01:21:39,040
Speaker 3: we'll address Maryland's case as well.

1435
01:21:39,760 --> 01:21:41,160
Speaker 2: By the way, shout out to Dave.

1436
01:21:42,680 --> 01:21:43,080
Speaker 3: My Man.

1437
01:21:43,280 --> 01:21:47,120
Speaker 4: I got to talk today to our you know, uh,

1438
01:21:47,240 --> 01:21:50,800
Speaker 4: somebody that I idolize, and so today has been like

1439
01:21:50,840 --> 01:21:52,519
Speaker 4: a really great day for me. We're going to have

1440
01:21:52,800 --> 01:21:56,400
Speaker 4: James Fitzgerald on our show. He is the former FBI

1441
01:21:56,640 --> 01:21:59,479
Speaker 4: linguist who basically called the Unibomber, and if you haven't

1442
01:21:59,479 --> 01:22:02,040
Speaker 4: seen Manhunt Unibomber.

1443
01:22:01,840 --> 01:22:02,679
Speaker 2: Please check it out.

1444
01:22:02,760 --> 01:22:04,960
Speaker 4: He is a personal idol of mine in fact, and

1445
01:22:05,000 --> 01:22:07,640
Speaker 4: the girls will attest to this. I actually before he

1446
01:22:07,680 --> 01:22:09,599
Speaker 4: came on, I almost threw up and started crying. Right,

1447
01:22:09,640 --> 01:22:13,520
Speaker 4: and I was like, that is true. I was so nervous.

1448
01:22:13,680 --> 01:22:16,240
Speaker 4: I was so nervous. So I'm just really excited to

1449
01:22:16,240 --> 01:22:17,760
Speaker 4: talk to him. And he's going to be on our

1450
01:22:17,760 --> 01:22:20,519
Speaker 4: show on Thursday. And you know, if you have any

1451
01:22:20,560 --> 01:22:22,639
Speaker 4: questions for him, give us a call eighty eight thirty

1452
01:22:22,640 --> 01:22:25,400
Speaker 4: one Crime or leave a talkback for him, like this

1453
01:22:25,479 --> 01:22:29,679
Speaker 4: is the this is the guy, the guy that does

1454
01:22:29,720 --> 01:22:31,479
Speaker 4: the he's amazing, right, Joseph.

1455
01:22:31,880 --> 01:22:34,560
Speaker 2: And the linguist guy is that he looks at language

1456
01:22:34,720 --> 01:22:39,080
Speaker 2: right and so he can study manifestos also bodies like

1457
01:22:39,439 --> 01:22:42,599
Speaker 2: you knowing being Her eyes were popping out of her head.

1458
01:22:42,720 --> 01:22:43,720
Speaker 2: She was so excited.

1459
01:22:43,800 --> 01:22:45,439
Speaker 4: So when Taha told me that I was going to

1460
01:22:45,479 --> 01:22:46,760
Speaker 4: have a chance to talk to him, I was like,

1461
01:22:46,840 --> 01:22:47,240
Speaker 4: oh my god.

1462
01:22:47,240 --> 01:22:50,640
Speaker 2: I started calling himself Boston, Oh blessed am. I like,

1463
01:22:50,880 --> 01:22:54,840
Speaker 2: I'm just an idiot. A good Sunday. I don't like

1464
01:22:54,880 --> 01:22:56,680
Speaker 2: it when you say you're just an idiot. I know

1465
01:22:56,720 --> 01:22:59,400
Speaker 2: you mean, I'm just like you. I'm just like everybody else.

1466
01:22:59,439 --> 01:23:01,559
Speaker 2: That's all I meant. I'm not I'm an amateur. I'm

1467
01:23:01,560 --> 01:23:02,799
Speaker 2: not an idiot.

1468
01:23:03,040 --> 01:23:06,679
Speaker 9: I was gonna say, I know Courtney is not an idiot,

1469
01:23:06,760 --> 01:23:09,400
Speaker 9: so that must have been aimed at me. No fair enough,

1470
01:23:09,439 --> 01:23:12,759
Speaker 9: fair enough, but not you body moving, not you Joseph

1471
01:23:12,800 --> 01:23:15,040
Speaker 9: Scott Morgan, and not you Courtney or I'm strong.

1472
01:23:17,439 --> 01:23:21,000
Speaker 2: You're all good, so far, so good, so again eight

1473
01:23:21,000 --> 01:23:22,800
Speaker 2: aight eight three one crime. And you can also leave

1474
01:23:22,840 --> 01:23:25,080
Speaker 2: us some messages on our socials, at True Crime Tonight's

1475
01:23:25,080 --> 01:23:29,160
Speaker 2: show on TikTok and Instagram, and at True Crime Tonight

1476
01:23:29,560 --> 01:23:33,160
Speaker 2: on Facebook. So please any and all ways we will

1477
01:23:33,200 --> 01:23:35,120
Speaker 2: take them. And by the way, if it's after ours,

1478
01:23:35,200 --> 01:23:38,360
Speaker 2: you could also leave us a voicemail. I mean, there's

1479
01:23:38,400 --> 01:23:40,519
Speaker 2: no excuse. So we're going to speak to you tomorrow.

1480
01:23:40,680 --> 01:23:43,200
Speaker 2: We're looking forward to it already. Please have a wonderful

1481
01:23:43,240 --> 01:23:45,920
Speaker 2: rest of your Sunday night. Be safe. We love you.

1482
01:23:46,240 --> 01:23:49,320
Speaker 2: This is True Crime Tonight. We've talked to True Crime

1483
01:23:49,680 --> 01:23:52,080
Speaker 2: for a lot of the time. We'll see you tomorrow.

1484
01:23:52,280 --> 01:23:52,439
Speaker 5: BA