WEBVTT - The Religious Right's War on Abortion 0:00:06.559 --> 0:00:10.360 Welcome. We welcome to it could happen here a podcast 0:00:10.680 --> 0:00:15.800 here it happens. Uh, yeah, that that that happens. Yeah, 0:00:15.840 --> 0:00:18.960 I'm I'm Christopher Long. I'm doing my best Robin impersonation 0:00:19.000 --> 0:00:27.280 because Robert has abandoned us for another interview. We yeah, 0:00:27.320 --> 0:00:29.440 we were. We are here to talk today about the 0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:31.400 fact that it did, in fact happen here, by which 0:00:31.400 --> 0:00:35.120 I mean, the Supreme Court has essentially, by fiat overturned 0:00:35.159 --> 0:00:39.000 drove Way and allowed Texas as a just draconian, weird 0:00:39.120 --> 0:00:44.720 snitch paying, indescribably illegal anti abortion law to go into effect. 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:47.199 And you know, a lot of people I think are 0:00:47.240 --> 0:00:50.160 shocked by this, and I think we're all sort of horrified. 0:00:50.280 --> 0:00:51.760 But for those of us who grew up in sort 0:00:51.760 --> 0:00:54.279 of right wing, magelical Christian communities, and watch how they 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:58.520 organized and watch how I'm mobilized, it's not really a surprise. No, 0:00:58.640 --> 0:01:03.040 I'm so bored with everybody's surprise. Please stop. I've been 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:08.920 saying this for so long, so long, so just like 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:13.360 just like standing in the street screaming from the rooftops. 0:01:13.440 --> 0:01:20.200 Just please, yeah, y'all listen now. It's like like when 0:01:20.240 --> 0:01:23.280 there's like a list of like the set schedule for 0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:26.679 a show and then you're surprised that it actually had 0:01:26.760 --> 0:01:30.120 that they do all those songs. Yes, it's like it's 0:01:30.160 --> 0:01:33.400 like the writing has been on the wall and the 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:37.840 and the floor and the paper and the years, forty 0:01:38.000 --> 0:01:41.160 fucking years, like there should be there, like there should 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:44.399 be outrage, but there should be no shock. Yes. Correct, 0:01:44.840 --> 0:01:48.360 Garrison's also here. Hi Garrison, Hello, this is that could 0:01:48.400 --> 0:01:53.560 happen here. We're talking about Texas is Um abortion ruling 0:01:53.600 --> 0:01:56.400 and well, and then in the Supreme Court's ruling on Garrison, 0:01:57.280 --> 0:02:01.040 Christopher already said that they're here. And then who who 0:02:01.040 --> 0:02:06.920 are our other two people today? I'm Karen Darkwater. I'm 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:11.040 the co host of the Kitchen Table Cult podcast and 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:16.200 also a Democratic Assembly District delegate for California, and I 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:21.880 have feelings. And I'm Eve Attinger, the other co host 0:02:21.960 --> 0:02:29.160 of Kitchen Table Cult podcast and angry writer. Mostly I 0:02:29.280 --> 0:02:31.799 think all of us on this podcast could be qualified 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:39.359 as angry writers professionally angry online. I just realized we 0:02:39.360 --> 0:02:41.640 should probably say that Karen and I grew up Quiverful, 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:45.799 which is you know, relevant to this subject. Yeah, we 0:02:45.800 --> 0:02:47.720 should go into because I think all all four of us, 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:51.200 UM have grown up in some degree of of the 0:02:51.560 --> 0:02:54.960 of the more extreme Christian factory. And yeah, you two 0:02:55.040 --> 0:02:58.280 specifically have some what why why don't you explain to 0:02:58.840 --> 0:03:02.280 the listeners kind of what your background is like. I 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:05.640 don't know, like the text version of it, because we 0:03:05.680 --> 0:03:08.960 have other other things to talk about as well. Okay. UM. 0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:13.600 I was raised as part of the Sovereign Grace Ministries 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:17.400 cult and was homeschool K through twelve and UM the 0:03:17.400 --> 0:03:22.520 oldest of nine kids. My family were hardcore, quarter full 0:03:22.840 --> 0:03:28.560 courtship people. UM. And then I left and got married 0:03:28.800 --> 0:03:32.519 and then got divorced and got out and it exploded 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:36.360 my whole family and now they're all out too nice. 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:42.000 Very similar to Eve, with the exception of UM. My 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:46.040 parents did not go to Sam and Grace. They did 0:03:46.040 --> 0:03:48.200 their own thing, and we're their own cult and church 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:53.320 hopped around a lot. Um. I'm the oldest eight ish 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:56.680 my parents had. My mom had ten full term pregnancies, 0:03:56.800 --> 0:03:59.520 but two of them were still born, so I'm the 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:03.600 oldest of technically ten, but in reality eight. UM also 0:04:04.120 --> 0:04:08.120 homeschooled K through twelve, grew up being told that I 0:04:08.200 --> 0:04:11.360 was supposed to be, you know, a housewife and have 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:15.240 lots of babies, ran away in my eighteenth birthday, got married, 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:20.159 was married for seven years and a surprisingly healthy ish marriage. Um, 0:04:20.680 --> 0:04:25.960 got divorced, started HRT, wound up in California, have been 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:28.680 working through all of that ship for the last like 0:04:29.279 --> 0:04:33.080 twelve years at this point. And we grew up together 0:04:33.360 --> 0:04:35.560 sort of. We know each other from high school. We've 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:38.120 been you know, conspiring to take over the world since 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:40.680 we were like fifteen. Yeah. Yeah, we've been friends since 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:43.480 we were like fifteen and did a lot of writing 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:46.320 in the day, and we still do. Like everything that 0:04:46.360 --> 0:04:48.839 we're doing now is still stuff we did in high school. 0:04:49.000 --> 0:04:52.240 It's like everything and nothing has changed. Like we're still writing, 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:57.000 we're still doing podcasts. It's just, uh, we've we've switched. Uh. 0:04:59.240 --> 0:05:05.400 We were doing pod us when Audacity was in beta, 0:05:05.600 --> 0:05:10.719 Like it was hard. Yeah, I guess I'm in the 0:05:10.720 --> 0:05:13.520 slightly weird position of being in a group of people 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:15.839 where I had probably like I had not even probably 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:18.599 I had the least funked up right wing Christian childhood. 0:05:18.640 --> 0:05:22.360 But yeah, I still grew up in a I guess 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:26.880 more mainline like a town that was sort of dominated 0:05:26.880 --> 0:05:31.840 by a sort of more mainline Evangelical University. It's as 0:05:31.839 --> 0:05:33.800 hard to say, go back to the beginning on this 0:05:33.880 --> 0:05:37.280 because you can pick like seven millions of roments. But 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:40.920 I think since since we're sort of focusing on abortion, um, 0:05:40.960 --> 0:05:45.160 I want to start by asking about the story of 0:05:45.200 --> 0:05:47.680 sort of how the Evangelical started caring about abortion, because 0:05:47.720 --> 0:05:50.360 that's that's a relatively recent thing, especially compared to sort 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:53.400 of Catholicism, and so yeah, I guess how how how 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:55.800 did that start? And how you know what what sort 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:58.599 relationship between that and and the birth of the modern 0:05:58.680 --> 0:06:10.120 religious right. Well, have you heard of Philish? Lastly? Philish? Laughly? 0:06:10.279 --> 0:06:19.039 So much? Um? Gross, Okay, I'm not enough rage just 0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:20.880 more than Enoe. I was trying to think of like 0:06:20.920 --> 0:06:24.200 an appropriate like horror sound effect to go right after 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:29.760 her name. Yeah, we can. We can get Daniel to 0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:34.080 add a horror Daniel add the worst possible sound effect 0:06:34.120 --> 0:06:38.159 you can think of for after you says do you 0:06:38.279 --> 0:06:43.640 know philis shop Philip shoply if it will not be enough, 0:06:43.720 --> 0:06:46.400 but we have to try. Yeah, it will not, It 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:49.719 will not be dark enough. But just no, I'm just 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:54.240 sitting here being like, there's so much information. If I 0:06:54.320 --> 0:06:56.839 just start is going to be a waterfall and like 0:06:56.960 --> 0:06:58.719 somebody's going to have to jump in and be like 0:06:58.800 --> 0:07:06.440 stop talking. Yeah, okay. So back in the sixties and 0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:10.040 the book Jesus and John Wayne by Christ and Dum 0:07:10.560 --> 0:07:14.640 gets into this a lot um, the church was having 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:18.040 kind of like a crisis of self in a lot 0:07:18.120 --> 0:07:22.600 of ways. Um, this is the height of the free 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:26.200 love movement, and the Vietnam War is going very badly 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:31.160 and uh, you know, the church is losing youth to 0:07:32.240 --> 0:07:36.560 cynicism and drugs and sex and like. So there's this 0:07:36.560 --> 0:07:40.280 this whole like contingent of like OCEHP we have to 0:07:40.360 --> 0:07:45.160 like get the political and religious stuff back on track 0:07:45.560 --> 0:07:51.440 according to our belief system um, and birth control and 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:56.600 abortion we're not really part of the picture um for 0:07:56.800 --> 0:08:03.000 that that strategy until like the eighties, and it was 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:09.080 kind of this whole like thing that was a manufactured crisis, um, 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:12.440 but it was it was the thing that they could 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:17.520 get voters of both Catholic and evangelical backgrounds to coalesce around. 0:08:17.800 --> 0:08:23.560 And they stumbled into this because fucking phillashial athlete was 0:08:24.040 --> 0:08:30.680 um really good at direct mail organizing. She was able 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:36.440 to get mailing lists and get like housewives with free 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:40.079 time to get on the phone and call elected officials 0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:45.760 and just kind of show up storm Barton, storm Capital 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:49.480 Steps and like talk to officials and get you know 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:54.240 this like overwhelming appearance of like your constituency is for 0:08:54.280 --> 0:08:57.760 this thing um, which is a really common thing that 0:08:57.840 --> 0:09:01.960 you see in the religious rights still to Yeah, mailing 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:05.120 lists have such a has such an interesting background and 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:07.960 right wing organizing, but that would be like physical mailing 0:09:07.960 --> 0:09:10.280 lists back in the day. Lots of the big names 0:09:10.360 --> 0:09:12.680 in in like the growing fire right to that, and 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:14.319 even today you can even look at like stuff for 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:17.640 January six with like Trump's email list follows the same 0:09:18.120 --> 0:09:20.240 follows the same strategy, and like the left ing the 0:09:20.240 --> 0:09:24.480 Democrats never do this. Ship well, okay, actually there's there's 0:09:24.520 --> 0:09:27.080 one instance. So there was someone who was involved with 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:29.680 shlafley Is organizing and the mailing list stuff who was 0:09:30.000 --> 0:09:34.040 who flipped and was participating in Act Up New York 0:09:34.400 --> 0:09:37.520 organizing and taught them how to use mailing lists. So 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:41.120 sure Sarah Schulman's book about Active New York gets into this, 0:09:41.160 --> 0:09:43.480 and it's really interesting to see, like, but I think 0:09:43.480 --> 0:09:45.320 that's the only instance I can think of that like 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:49.120 the left picked up on that, but shlaughly started it, 0:09:49.320 --> 0:09:53.400 focused on the family, picked it up, everybody ran with it, 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:57.880 and it is the default method now for organizing a 0:09:57.920 --> 0:10:01.959 block voter base. Yea. And one of the things that 0:10:02.040 --> 0:10:03.880 she was doing, so she was against the r A 0:10:04.000 --> 0:10:06.599 and that was like her thing was the r A 0:10:06.760 --> 0:10:08.760 is going to actually limit women's rights. And it was 0:10:08.800 --> 0:10:12.720 kind of about, like, you have certain protections as a 0:10:12.760 --> 0:10:15.960 housewife because you're entitled to like this level of support 0:10:16.080 --> 0:10:17.760 and all of this stuff, and like you don't want 0:10:17.800 --> 0:10:20.280 to be drafted. And so that was kind of how 0:10:20.360 --> 0:10:25.520 she was framing that conversation. And she framed in one 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:30.040 of her Equal Forum newsletters the conversation about abortion as 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:33.960 being tied up in that, and that got people's attention. 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:37.120 And she was a Catholic, and the Catholics are have 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:41.080 consistently been against abortion, and the Evangelicals up until that 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:45.000 point were not, and they really just wanted to separate 0:10:45.000 --> 0:10:47.160 themselves from the Catholics on this issue. And they called 0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:51.199 it therapeutic abortion. So if it's like rape, incest, or 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:55.760 like dangering the life of the mother, they assumed that 0:10:55.800 --> 0:11:00.400 those were reasonable reasons to do that, and they, you know, 0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:03.520 we're worried about overpopulation, and so they were talking about 0:11:03.520 --> 0:11:06.640 birth control is a good thing, and and the Catholics 0:11:06.679 --> 0:11:09.480 were against all of it. And so Shafley was able 0:11:09.520 --> 0:11:17.000 to mobilize this Catholic and Evangelical female voter base. Um, 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:21.080 white ladies, primarily white women. Um, white women are always 0:11:21.080 --> 0:11:29.800 the problem. Um too move the the attention and the 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:35.960 conversation in this particular direction. And once they killed the 0:11:35.960 --> 0:11:40.160 e r A, the rest of the evangelical political leadership 0:11:40.280 --> 0:11:44.600 on the right, we're like, okay, this is like we're 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:52.120 crossing the ecumenical aisle. We should pay attention to this. Um. 0:11:52.160 --> 0:11:55.880 So I mean, I've got um this this book in 0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:58.760 front of me, here, all my sources here. So this 0:11:58.840 --> 0:12:02.000 is The Evangelicals by Francis Fitzgerald, and it's kind of 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:06.360 the definitive history of the Evangelicals in America, and it's 0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:11.200 fucking great. Um. One of the things that she traces 0:12:11.360 --> 0:12:13.920 is this whole conversation. And there's this line in here 0:12:13.920 --> 0:12:19.040 where it's like the Southern Baptist Convention affirmed a like 0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:23.920 neutral stance on abortion, like against abortions on demand and 0:12:24.000 --> 0:12:27.240 like you know, doing it thoughtlessly, but like they were 0:12:27.280 --> 0:12:33.520 neutral on the concept overall until sucking yep, as they're 0:12:33.640 --> 0:12:42.280 like group doctrinal policy. And that's around when like the 0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:47.120 moral majority started becoming a thing, and also when people 0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:51.040 were starting to freak out about like they're not being 0:12:51.160 --> 0:12:55.800 a majority of white people. And at some point the 0:12:55.800 --> 0:12:59.640 the rhetoric turned from well, I mean, it's always been 0:12:59.679 --> 0:13:02.640 like about the babies, but at some point it got 0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:08.360 translated into we have to literally outbreed the left, which 0:13:08.440 --> 0:13:11.880 is what I grew up in. Yeah, so we grew 0:13:11.960 --> 0:13:16.120 up in UM under the influence of Mary Pride's The 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:20.000 Way Home and The Long like All the Way Home Heard, 0:13:20.000 --> 0:13:22.360 two books that she wrote about kind of that kicked 0:13:22.400 --> 0:13:27.040 off the quiverable movement. UM. But let me go back. 0:13:27.080 --> 0:13:29.000 I want to I want to go through this timeline 0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:33.800 that I pulled pulled together yesterday. So the Moral majority 0:13:34.040 --> 0:13:37.240 was started by way Rich in nineteen seventy The Southern 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:42.319 Baptist Convention started their pro abortion or neutral toward abortion 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:47.320 policy in in nineteen seventy two was when Schlafley started 0:13:47.320 --> 0:13:50.160 opposing the e R A. N. Seventy three is rov Wade. 0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:55.079 Nineteen seventy four is when Schlafley's newsletter goes out arguing 0:13:55.120 --> 0:13:58.960 that the ear A is gonna make abortion you know 0:13:59.600 --> 0:14:06.160 on the and um Billy Graham is still pro abortion, 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:13.360 and then Carter loses in yeah, and that's when the 0:14:13.400 --> 0:14:17.920 whole thing flips once Reagan wins. That is that is 0:14:17.920 --> 0:14:22.240 such an interesting timeline of events and basically basically it 0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:25.680 went perfect for them, except except for like Roevie Wave 0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:27.520 was a little bit of like a hiccup, but like 0:14:28.040 --> 0:14:31.120 they really were successful in organizing in a way that's 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:35.360 almost kind of unparalleled in the ramp up to Reagan 0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:38.760 getting an office, right, and then Mary Pride was in 0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:43.240 the late eighties, and like it was so she like 0:14:43.400 --> 0:14:46.920 founded the coverful movement of the like, actually, women, you 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:52.280 are being um contrary to your own satisfaction for yourself 0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:55.720 if you are staying at work and not having babies, 0:14:56.000 --> 0:14:58.440 and you will be like fulfilled if you go home 0:14:58.880 --> 0:15:02.480 and keep house and had babies. And birth control is 0:15:02.800 --> 0:15:06.400 against God's will and is like thwarding your like self 0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:09.840 fulfillment and your best purpose. So like that's the book 0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:14.320 that kicked my parents down the quiver full road. Yeah. 0:15:14.960 --> 0:15:18.560 I think one of the interesting things here is and 0:15:18.680 --> 0:15:20.600 you see this like in Italy too, although it's a 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:22.720 less right ring form with with the Christian Democrats. But 0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:28.320 it's like this is like the the focus on, like 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:31.560 the sort of Christian focus on on rolling back feminism 0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:35.120 and then bringing women into their movements is something that's 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:38.520 very very important to not just anti abortion stuff, but 0:15:38.560 --> 0:15:40.720 to this sort of the broader rollback of of the 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:42.760 left over the whole course in the twenty century. And 0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:45.560 you see this in you know, in the way that's 0:15:45.600 --> 0:15:46.960 sort of you know, what what what what the left 0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:48.560 is doing at this time, Like they have the feminist movement, 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:50.280 but the feminist movement in a lot of ways is 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:53.680 detached from sort of the workers movements, and this becomes 0:15:53.720 --> 0:15:55.360 like the way you roll back the worker's movement is 0:15:55.480 --> 0:15:57.480 the workers movements ignoring women, and so you know, the 0:15:57.840 --> 0:16:00.520 right targets them and wins and and I think also 0:16:00.600 --> 0:16:02.120 you know, and this this is also you know, we 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:07.760 talked about this sort of with Reagan's alliance with the evangelicals. Weird, 0:16:08.400 --> 0:16:11.440 but it's somewhat tenuous, but you know that this is 0:16:11.640 --> 0:16:14.680 you know, in in in a lot of ways, this 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:16.880 stuff like these people that this is more matority, like 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:20.760 this is this is how neoliberalism happens, and I think 0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:23.040 like in in a lot like this, this is sort 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:24.160 of like I guess like you could have it like 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:27.440 the sort of you know, it's it's one of the 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:30.120 sort of electoral shock troop things that that happens to 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:32.840 start pushing this stuff. Well, it's such a class and 0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:35.120 race based thing. And this is why that, like the 0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:38.480 pushing back against feminism stuff started being so popular among 0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:42.600 this particular group. I think is you had this idea 0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:45.280 of like, oh, ship, this means that if our husbands 0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:48.880 leave us or we leave them, we have to support 0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:50.760 ourselves because we might might not be able to give 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:54.600 like stay at home wife levels of alimony anymore because 0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:56.520 we won't have the legal protections under the e r 0:16:56.600 --> 0:17:01.480 A if it passes, so like, uh, that means we'd 0:17:01.520 --> 0:17:04.879 have to work. And that's not what white ladies do. 0:17:05.880 --> 0:17:08.560 You know. It's just kind of like this like white 0:17:08.640 --> 0:17:12.480 lady fragility thing. You know, it goes all the way 0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:16.240 back through everything. Yeah, it becomes just like it becomes 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:18.840 this hammer that you can beat like everyone else with 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:22.200 like whatever sort of like and I think this is 0:17:22.240 --> 0:17:25.439 why there's so much shock about Texas right now is 0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:30.439 because It's like, um, the only women who are going 0:17:30.480 --> 0:17:35.520 to be like actually introduced to new dangers right now 0:17:36.160 --> 0:17:39.320 or the uterus having people introduced to new dangers under 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:44.480 this abortion ban under this new policy is white ladies. 0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:50.880 Everybody else has been vulnerable in this way already, and 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:55.240 so the shock and surprise is like, Yeah, being a 0:17:55.280 --> 0:18:02.000 white woman does not necessarily protect you from the patriarchy. Yeah, 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:07.080 especially if you're not rich, Like if you have money 0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:10.679 to fleet the state of Texas, you're fine, but otherwise, 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:15.840 like you're just sucked. Racial solidarity screws you over once again. 0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:24.600 M hmm. Everything comes back to racism, honestly. Yeah, Like 0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:26.639 I think everything with this coalition is it like a 0:18:26.640 --> 0:18:28.960 lot of the original basis of this and you can 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:31.000 talk about was more than I camp, but was about 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:33.040 like the original thing they were trying to do was 0:18:33.080 --> 0:18:36.879 stopping desegregation from happening and maintaining desegregation, you know, And 0:18:37.119 --> 0:18:39.760 this this feeds into sort of private school stuff. Yeah, 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:44.919 even take it Away movement started. I'm like, so have 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:50.920 you heard about Jones University? Sound effect for that one too? 0:18:51.000 --> 0:18:52.679 We could we could talk. I'm planning and writing a 0:18:52.680 --> 0:19:00.480 Bastards about Bob Jones University coming up here soon to degregate. Yeah. Yeah, 0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:03.840 uh that only and like it was like like ninet 0:19:04.040 --> 0:19:08.360 nine they allowed interracial dating, I think, Yeah, but they 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:11.440 were I think it was like yes, but also only 0:19:11.480 --> 0:19:16.800 if your parents agree. Yeah, we still require parental consent. 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:20.160 All of all of my English was by Bob Jones 0:19:20.280 --> 0:19:24.280 University Press. We ran into that a lot too. Yeah, 0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:26.359 And the fun thing about the English is that you're 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:29.760 not actually learning English. You're learning like propaganda through the 0:19:29.840 --> 0:19:32.400 veil of English. So like you learn about like climate 0:19:32.480 --> 0:19:36.120 change denialism through your English program. Just just it's one 0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:40.800 of the most most fun things. Yeah, is the way 0:19:40.800 --> 0:19:43.040 that they structure their education. And like oddly to like 0:19:43.160 --> 0:19:45.280 I'm not sure this is similar to I don't know 0:19:45.680 --> 0:19:49.720 how your personal opinions on abortion evolved throughout your process 0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:55.000 of de radicalization. Yeah, but like like like for me, 0:19:55.119 --> 0:19:57.560 like for some reason, that was one of the last 0:19:57.560 --> 0:19:59.760 things to change, Like I I got on, like that 0:19:59.840 --> 0:20:02.280 was one of the last things to actually get like 0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:05.159 kicked off of of my brain. Like I like I 0:20:05.720 --> 0:20:08.040 changed on like a whole bunch of other views around 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:11.240 around like queerness and stuff, like way before I switched 0:20:11.280 --> 0:20:13.359 around abortion, it was one of the things that like 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:17.280 they really like, like I think that's their propaganda, and 0:20:17.320 --> 0:20:20.400 it really was able to like sink sink its claws 0:20:20.680 --> 0:20:23.760 into my brain. Well, it's like it's like the Q 0:20:23.960 --> 0:20:27.480 and On stuff and all of the like mythology around 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:30.040 sex trafficking that we have right now is like it's 0:20:30.040 --> 0:20:35.160 all about save the babies. And then that's like engender 0:20:35.320 --> 0:20:38.960 such a lack of critical thinking because your emotional engagement 0:20:39.040 --> 0:20:42.439 locks immediately and they can convince you of anything and 0:20:42.560 --> 0:20:46.080 most of it's not true. Yeah, yeah, I think, yeah, 0:20:46.080 --> 0:20:48.320 I think it really is similar to a lot of mean, 0:20:48.720 --> 0:20:51.080 all the qun stuff we're cut and stuff you know 0:20:51.119 --> 0:20:53.240 that that was popped that was getting very big last year. 0:20:53.280 --> 0:20:55.600 It's really just a continuation of this same thing. It's 0:20:55.640 --> 0:20:58.240 just with it's just for the new mask on um. 0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:00.159 A lot of this kind of stuff play is on 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:04.240 the same interest that is put into focused by the 0:21:04.280 --> 0:21:08.679 same bad actors. Yeah, Like, it's honestly not surprising to 0:21:08.720 --> 0:21:13.720 me that so many evangelical Christians and just like generally 0:21:13.800 --> 0:21:17.320 right wing people fell for Q and On because it 0:21:17.440 --> 0:21:22.280 already confirms all of their priors, Like they're already believing 0:21:22.320 --> 0:21:24.359 most of this stuff and it's just like, oh, sure, 0:21:24.440 --> 0:21:26.960 I can make that leap of logic, and like for us, 0:21:26.960 --> 0:21:29.639 we're like there was, you know, a whole gymnastics of 0:21:29.640 --> 0:21:31.840 course you had to go through, but they were already 0:21:32.080 --> 0:21:34.560 already there. Okay, I want to jump in here and 0:21:34.920 --> 0:21:38.320 tie up some some threads between these conversations, because one 0:21:38.320 --> 0:21:42.080 of the things that these these conspiracy theories and the 0:21:42.200 --> 0:21:47.200 like anti abortion stuff having common is anti Semitism and UM. 0:21:47.280 --> 0:21:52.159 And so the mythology of the Q and on, like 0:21:52.400 --> 0:21:56.720 celebrities using babies blood for skincare kind of thing goes 0:21:56.800 --> 0:21:59.720 back to the Middle Ages to blood libel, which is 0:22:00.119 --> 0:22:05.320 an anti Semitic um mythology that was used to excuse 0:22:05.400 --> 0:22:11.360 like murdering lots of Jews um. And the similarly, the 0:22:11.359 --> 0:22:16.400 whole conversation around abortion, the using stuff from the Old 0:22:16.440 --> 0:22:20.960 Testament to proof text your evangelical belief in like like 0:22:22.280 --> 0:22:25.600 the you know, life starts from conception kind of thing 0:22:26.160 --> 0:22:30.960 um goes against Jewish tradition and Jewish understanding of these texts, 0:22:31.000 --> 0:22:35.080 Like the Jewish tradition is life starts at the first breath, 0:22:36.280 --> 0:22:40.840 so like if the baby is viable on its own 0:22:40.920 --> 0:22:43.159 and able to come out and like then it breathes, 0:22:43.359 --> 0:22:45.080 then it's a life, then it's a person. That's when 0:22:45.080 --> 0:22:47.480 the spirit enters the body. As far as I'm my 0:22:47.640 --> 0:22:53.360 understanding goes, and so the like evangelicals again using biblical 0:22:53.400 --> 0:22:59.720 literalism and proof texting and trying to you know, shape 0:22:59.800 --> 0:23:05.240 the Bible into a uh texts that they can reinforce 0:23:05.280 --> 0:23:08.560 all of their prior beliefs around, rather than reading it 0:23:08.640 --> 0:23:14.240 as literature with a historical context and like like collective 0:23:14.280 --> 0:23:20.840 understanding by another group of people, like it's just one 0:23:20.880 --> 0:23:22.880 of those another one of those examples, and so this 0:23:22.960 --> 0:23:25.760 is built into it is this like yeah, well the 0:23:25.760 --> 0:23:30.040 Bible says this that they It's like no, actually, like 0:23:30.200 --> 0:23:32.520 that's not how the rest of the world has interpreted 0:23:32.560 --> 0:23:46.200 these same texts. This plays into so many other things 0:23:46.200 --> 0:23:49.240 that the right is currently grasping on. Like we we 0:23:49.359 --> 0:23:51.480 could usually talk about the intersection and not not even 0:23:51.480 --> 0:23:55.159 not even this intersection, but the direct continuation of anti 0:23:55.200 --> 0:24:00.840 abortion stuff into anti vaxx stuff, Like all of these 0:24:00.880 --> 0:24:03.520 things are the exact same thread. They all come from 0:24:03.560 --> 0:24:07.240 the exact same place, and it's propagated by the same people. Um, 0:24:07.240 --> 0:24:09.720 Like all of these things like once you start to 0:24:09.720 --> 0:24:11.320 look into this, you're like, oh, no, it's all the 0:24:11.359 --> 0:24:15.760 same thing. It's always wrapped up in this same spiral. Yeah, 0:24:16.040 --> 0:24:21.360 I mean the m and it goes into using essential 0:24:21.400 --> 0:24:28.359 oils for like healing and like not trusting doctors and 0:24:28.800 --> 0:24:32.000 like there's good reasons to mistress the medical institution and 0:24:32.119 --> 0:24:38.280 like big pharma. Not for these reasons though, I'm sorry, 0:24:38.720 --> 0:24:43.359 like Glonial Silver maybe not, Like we couldn't if we 0:24:43.400 --> 0:24:45.480 went to the doctor as a kid, like if our 0:24:45.480 --> 0:24:47.320 parents were got to the doctor, that was that was 0:24:47.400 --> 0:24:53.280 like a breach of faith. Um, you know, yeah, my 0:24:53.320 --> 0:24:55.840 mom's a nurse, so like we actually had like skipped 0:24:55.840 --> 0:24:59.520 a lot of this stuff. But Karen has stories. Yeah, 0:24:59.720 --> 0:25:04.000 my parents they got involved in this cult called Cleansing 0:25:04.040 --> 0:25:06.720 Stream and that was where they were introduced to demonic 0:25:06.720 --> 0:25:10.320 possession and also faith healing, and they left the cult 0:25:10.359 --> 0:25:14.520 because they believed the demonic possession levels of that group 0:25:14.800 --> 0:25:18.560 was ridiculous and it was, but they didn't leave behind 0:25:18.600 --> 0:25:23.760 the faith healing, so did not Like I literally didn't 0:25:23.800 --> 0:25:29.560 see a doctor from the time I was like maybe 0:25:29.840 --> 0:25:33.399 five until I was eighteen, and I went to the 0:25:33.440 --> 0:25:35.879 doctor and I was like, I know, I had my 0:25:35.920 --> 0:25:40.400 tetanus before it was ten and everything else nothing happened, 0:25:40.440 --> 0:25:45.399 So please catch me up, because I didn't see anyone. 0:25:45.440 --> 0:25:48.880 I had literally like infections that could have been treated 0:25:48.880 --> 0:25:51.080 with antibiotics and cleared up in like a week that 0:25:51.160 --> 0:25:53.960 lasted for like two years because my parents were that 0:25:54.119 --> 0:25:57.160 adamant about the doctors being evil. And the reason was 0:25:58.600 --> 0:26:03.919 because in the concordance, if you look up the word 0:26:05.040 --> 0:26:13.679 uh for like medicine, it's parmachea and farmachea translates into witchcraft. 0:26:13.760 --> 0:26:17.080 And so my parents were like, well, obviously that means 0:26:17.119 --> 0:26:20.719 medicine is witchcraft, and witchcraft is of the devil, So 0:26:20.920 --> 0:26:24.320