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Speaker 1: The Book of Joe Podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey there, welcome back to the latest episode of the

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Speaker 1: Book of Joe Podcast with me Tom Berducci and my

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Speaker 1: good buddy Joe Madden and Joe, I've got to tell

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Speaker 1: you if something happened this week, an Angel's pitcher did

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Speaker 1: something that nobody has done this year, and it has

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Speaker 1: been done only ten times in the last four years.

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Speaker 1: And believe it or not, it does not involve show.

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Speaker 1: Hey Otani, by the way, let's just get this out

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Speaker 1: of the way with Otani, I still do not see

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Speaker 1: Arti Moreno trading show. Hey, Otani, They're a five hundred team,

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Speaker 1: and if you're telling me that Arti Moreno is going

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Speaker 1: to give up on a two hundred and thirty four

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Speaker 1: million dollar team with Mike Trout coming back in September

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Speaker 1: when they're four and a half games out of a

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Speaker 1: wildcard and most of all, shoh Otani has a chance

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Speaker 1: to break Aaron Judge's home run record and Artie Moreno

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Speaker 1: is going to give up all of that to get

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Speaker 1: a couple of prospects. Sorry, I'm not buying.

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Speaker 2: You're probably absolutely correct. And when you put it, you know,

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Speaker 2: the four and a half behind in a wildcard. The

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Speaker 2: second World Card makes a huge difference. And I keep

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Speaker 2: going back to the time with the Rays we were

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Speaker 2: down nine nine games or something like that, eight and

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Speaker 2: a half or nine on September first, and got into

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Speaker 2: the wildcard with that the greatest night in baseball. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: I mean, the thing is if you guess to the

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Speaker 2: point where you don't get in, you've kept him. You

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Speaker 2: don't get anything for it. There's that's gotta bother you

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Speaker 2: just a little bit. But then again, there's so many

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Speaker 2: this is different, there's more I've thought about it. There's

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Speaker 2: so many other items attached to this. As you just

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Speaker 2: described that, it would be very difficult, almost under any

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Speaker 2: circumstances for Already to do that. So you're probably right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know how much it means to Already to

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Speaker 1: put an entertaining team on the field, very fan friendly place.

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Speaker 1: If you go to a game at Angel Stadium and

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Speaker 1: to take show Ayotani away from them when he's chasing records, man,

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Speaker 1: that would be painful. Okay, So what Angels pitcher am

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Speaker 1: I talking about? And what feet am I talking about?

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Speaker 1: If it's not Showhy, it's Griffin Canning who threw one

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Speaker 1: hundred and twenty pitches. That is the first one hundred

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Speaker 1: and twenty pitch game of the twenty twenty three season.

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Speaker 1: It took more than half a season for a manager

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Speaker 1: to allow a pitcher to throw one hundred and twenty pitches,

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Speaker 1: and it's been done only ten times in the last

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Speaker 1: four years. So good on Phil Nevin. Griffin Canning was

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Speaker 1: he struck out twelve five and two thirds innings, had

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Speaker 1: some traffic, six hits, three walks. But obviously Phil Nevin's

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Speaker 1: watching the game and he saw a guy who had

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Speaker 1: good stuff. Obviously swing and miss stuff had him staying

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Speaker 1: in his delivery, his arms not going to fall off.

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Speaker 1: One hundred and twenty. I don't know how he came

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Speaker 1: up with this number, that that's the magic number. Nobody

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Speaker 1: can go beyond. And listen, you know, Joe, the Angels

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Speaker 1: love the six man rotation, so you always have the

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Speaker 1: built in recovery day on the other side of it. Now, listen,

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Speaker 1: we've talked about this, Joe, and I wondering about your

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Speaker 1: thoughts here on these hard pitch counts and especially not

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Speaker 1: allowing pitchers to even approach one twenty.

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Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I was watching that game, and

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Speaker 2: Griff looked outstanding. I really like Griffin Canny different. His

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Speaker 2: velocity was up, his breaking ball did not have the hump,

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Speaker 2: and it was sharp. He just looked more confident pitching.

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Speaker 2: I've always thought that was the big thing with him,

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Speaker 2: is that just to believe in himself because he has

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Speaker 2: good stuff. He's a great athlete. So I even before

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Speaker 2: you said Griff's name, I really I thought that might

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Speaker 2: have been the answer to the question. So, yeah, the

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Speaker 2: pitch count situation, I've never been a subscriber to this

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Speaker 2: one hundred pitch exercise that everybody's kind of devolved into.

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Speaker 2: For me, like you just suggested, when a picture came

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Speaker 2: out of his delivery would be one of the indicators

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Speaker 2: for me, all of a sudden, trying to force it.

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Speaker 2: You could see him grinding and trying to get more velocity,

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Speaker 2: trying to manufacture things. When your pitcher starts to attempt

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Speaker 2: to manufacture velocity or break on the mound and you

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Speaker 2: can see it, that's probably the time to get him

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Speaker 2: out of there. Things are going to go awry. He's

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Speaker 2: going to stop making good pitches. So that number one.

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Speaker 2: Number two, I'll give you an example James Shields. Shields

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Speaker 2: went off, though I can't remember the year, I'm bad

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Speaker 2: with that, but started pitching a lot of complete games

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Speaker 2: or like the seventh eighth inning kind of games. And

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Speaker 2: his waterloo number for me, weirdly was like one oh. Wait,

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Speaker 2: that was the number I had to look at because

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Speaker 2: he would go, go, go cruise, and all of a

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Speaker 2: sudden it comes one hundred, no problem. And then we

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Speaker 2: get into that one oh eight, one ten area and

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Speaker 2: things would just start to fall apart. But eventually, and

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Speaker 2: I talked him about it, eventually he got beyond that also,

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Speaker 2: and again his arm definitely did not fall off. And

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Speaker 2: although he had problems prior to becoming who he was

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Speaker 2: as a very good major league pitcher. So yeah, I agree,

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Speaker 2: watch a delivery, know your guy. Six man rotation. Absolutely,

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Speaker 2: you have more liberty to extend a pitcher and have

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Speaker 2: him go more deeply into the game pitch number wise,

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Speaker 2: and sometimes last point you might have like the first

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Speaker 2: two winnings you might throw forty forty five or maybe

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Speaker 2: even fifty pitches based on two long innings, settle down,

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Speaker 2: and then all of a sudden you got your at

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Speaker 2: one hundred at after seven and you've only thrown sixty

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Speaker 2: pitches for the last three innings whatever or five innings,

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Speaker 2: So there's a difference in how you get there. Watch

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Speaker 2: what your guy's doings, he's settled in, is he cruising,

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Speaker 2: is he out of his delivery? All those things should

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Speaker 2: be factors and not just a number.

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Speaker 1: Let me give you some speaking of numbers, some numbers

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Speaker 1: pitchers under the age of thirty two, because you know

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Speaker 1: that the governors get even less for younger pitchers in

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Speaker 1: the game. Not the thirty two is that young. But

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Speaker 1: for all pitchers under the age of thirty two, this year,

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Speaker 1: no one's thrown more than one hundred and fifteen pitches.

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Speaker 1: And again for all pitchers, one hundred and twenty pitch

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Speaker 1: games I mentioned Canning is the only one this year,

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Speaker 1: last year, three, twenty twenty one, five, in twenty eleven.

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Speaker 1: It's not too long ago, one hundred and twenty nine.

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Speaker 1: You're gonna go back to two thousand, four hundred and

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Speaker 1: sixty six. There were more one hundred and twenty pitch

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Speaker 1: games in the first ten days of the two thousand season.

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Speaker 1: Then in the past four years combined. That's how far

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Speaker 1: things have been cut back in terms of allowing pitchers

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Speaker 1: really any kind of a length. And again, I don't

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Speaker 1: know how he came up with this number. One twenty

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Speaker 1: is like that's the third rail of pitching. Nobody And

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Speaker 1: that's kind of what bothers me, Joe, is that it's

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Speaker 1: such a one size fits all thing. Right, you're telling

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Speaker 1: me that there are some guys who, as you mentioned,

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Speaker 1: stay in their delivery, have an extra day of rest

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Speaker 1: or especially an established guy at his thirties, bigger body guy,

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Speaker 1: he can't get to one twenty. When it was routine

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Speaker 1: just a decade ago, ten years ago, you know, there

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Speaker 1: were twenty five guys who were twenty five and younger

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Speaker 1: were allowed to go one twenty ten times. It hasn't

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Speaker 1: It happened once in the last five years. That was

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Speaker 1: Shane Bieber in twenty twenty one, where a guy twenty

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Speaker 1: five and under went one hundred and twenty pitches.

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Speaker 2: Are we just conditioning exactly?

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Speaker 1: You look at the minor leagues. That's what's happening. Guys

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Speaker 1: are getting to make major leagues without throwing one hundred pitches.

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Speaker 1: That's a fact I've seen this. I'm talking about young

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Speaker 1: pitchers who've had three four years in the minor leagues

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Speaker 1: are getting to the major leagues without ever throwing even

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Speaker 1: one hundred pitches. And look around here at the trade deadline,

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Speaker 1: look at all the teams looking for starting pitching, the Dodgers,

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Speaker 1: the Rays, the Diamondbacks, the Reds, the Marlins, the Astros.

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Speaker 1: Why self fulfilling prophecy, We're not developing pitchers to provide length.

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Speaker 2: Let me ask you, I mean with the the starters.

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Speaker 2: It's almost to the point where, like like you're saying,

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Speaker 2: in the minor leagues, nobody's really developing the starters to

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Speaker 2: to pitch more deeply into the game. So we devalue

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Speaker 2: the starter. I mean, with the advent of this the

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Speaker 2: uber bullpens, where you want to hand the game over

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Speaker 2: to this guy, this guy, and this guy because we're

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Speaker 2: all throwing one hundred miles an hour. There's I think

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Speaker 2: that that plays into this somehow. That's just organizationally driven

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Speaker 2: or analytically driven. That's part of what you're seeing. And

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Speaker 2: I'm beyond that the starters themselves. Although I watched Nola

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Speaker 2: Pich last night, he really pitched well with Philadelphia. But

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Speaker 2: are we like developing this this group of like a

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Speaker 2: full effort not I hate the term maximum effort. I

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Speaker 2: always hate it because you always should be giving your

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Speaker 2: best effort. But full effort pitchers where they're just coming

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Speaker 2: on glued every pitch. There's no art to the pitching

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Speaker 2: at all. I'm just trying to throw as hard as

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Speaker 2: I can for as long as I can. Is that

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Speaker 2: is that part of the mentality too, which then causes

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Speaker 2: these guys to burn out more quickly in the game

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Speaker 2: that happens. Although I was watching lizid Herman last night,

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Speaker 2: nice change up watching, like I said, Nola really some

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Speaker 2: nice shape to the pitches. I watched Hendrix the other day,

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Speaker 2: so I mean, I don't know exactly what it is,

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Speaker 2: but there's a devaluation of the starters themselves. They want

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Speaker 2: managers are like top Step want to get that guy

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Speaker 2: out of there because I need to get these bigger

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Speaker 2: arms in there based on what my analytical department tells

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Speaker 2: me to do. That's part of it. And again like

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Speaker 2: the method full effort, let's go top of the zone,

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Speaker 2: throw it as hard as I can, and it's the

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Speaker 2: art of pitching is pretty much gone awright just because

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Speaker 2: it's been proven. I guess you get to it above

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Speaker 2: a certain velocity, number contact becomes less, strikeouts go up.

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Speaker 2: So's there's all conspiring components of this that I think

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Speaker 2: if you broke them all down and sat down and

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Speaker 2: put a list on, you know why this is happening.

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Speaker 2: The way the pitchers have been taught to pitch down

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Speaker 2: and what the organizations are looking for compared to what

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Speaker 2: have been going on before. There's there's definitely a distance

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Speaker 2: between those two things that is causing this to occur.

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Speaker 2: And I'm with you, man, I like it because I

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Speaker 2: for me, you get a better bullpen by having a

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Speaker 2: guy going more deeply into the game, and I it's

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Speaker 2: just common sense.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you're right about the mentality of starting pitchers.

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Speaker 1: It's basically a relief mentality. Now, if you look at velocity,

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Speaker 1: it's the highest in the first inning, So I get it.

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Speaker 1: They're encouraged to do that that the game is predicated on. Hey,

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Speaker 1: we've got a lot of guys behind you in the bullpen.

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Speaker 1: And if you watch the All Star Game is a

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Speaker 1: good example of what's happened to the game because you

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Speaker 1: really didn't have brand name star starting pitchers going out

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Speaker 1: there to pitch in the game. We just don't have

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Speaker 1: those because pitchers aren't getting as many wins. And I

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Speaker 1: know the win is not a great stat to value

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Speaker 1: the true value of a pitcher, but fans dig it. Man,

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Speaker 1: If you're a twenty game winner, Listen, you walk into

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Speaker 1: a bar and you say, hey, I want twenty games

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Speaker 1: in the big leagues, You're gonna press a lot more

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Speaker 1: people than talking about your FIP. So when you watch

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Speaker 1: the All Star Game, it's a bunch of heart throwing

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Speaker 1: relievers one after the other who come into the game

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Speaker 1: and you're like, you know, hey, where's Randy Johnson, Where's

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Speaker 1: Greg Maddox. You know we're not getting those stars right,

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Speaker 1: And think about this, Joe and I go back to

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Speaker 1: the Rays. They've never had a pitcher twenty five and

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Speaker 1: younger throw one hundred and twenty pitches.

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Speaker 2: Never.

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Speaker 1: The last time they had any pitcher throw one hundred

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Speaker 1: and twenty games was seven years ago Drew Smiley. And

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Speaker 1: by the way, Drew Smiley also was the only twenty

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Speaker 1: five U pitcher who threw one hundred and sixteen pitches.

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Speaker 1: That was back in twenty fourteen. Joe, when you had

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Speaker 1: him pitching against the Texas Rangers, had thrown seven shutout innings.

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Speaker 1: He was at ninety four pitches. You put him out

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Speaker 1: there in the eighth with a six to nothing lead,

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Speaker 1: and he kind of struggled that inning and gave up,

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Speaker 1: you know, a couple of runs and you took him

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Speaker 1: out at that point. But Drew Smiley, you had him

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Speaker 1: twenty fourteen, a young pitcher one hundred and sixteen pitches

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Speaker 1: is still pitching today.

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Speaker 2: A mine one stretch. I've always looking for that with

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Speaker 2: starting pitchers. When they get to that point and they're

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Speaker 2: doing really well, let him go. They have to learn

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Speaker 2: how to pitch the eighth and be successful and then

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Speaker 2: the ninth and walk off the field and shake hands.

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Speaker 2: Without opportunity, it's never going to happen. I do believe

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Speaker 2: we've talked about this before it transforms pitchers. I talked

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Speaker 2: about Jake Arietta with the Cubs that year when he

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Speaker 2: had that complete game shut out in Minnesota, but it

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Speaker 2: took a little flack over because it was eight and nothing.

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Speaker 2: I left them in there to complete the game. But

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Speaker 2: then he became a beast after that. And you're looking

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Speaker 2: for Smiley to become a beast. I remember he did

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Speaker 2: with Edwin Jackson where he the ninety ninth pitch in

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Speaker 2: the game in Texas one night the old Ballpark, he

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Speaker 2: threw a pitch ninety nine miles an hour. So these

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Speaker 2: guys don't know what they can do it. It's again

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Speaker 2: the mine one stretch has a difficult time going back

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Speaker 2: to its original form. I want them to think they

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Speaker 2: can do this, and they're going to become better when

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Speaker 2: they're able to finish what they complete. Man, it's a

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Speaker 2: game changer for them and for the team. Last point. First,

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Speaker 2: any velocity. I was always concerned Andy, I'm gonna use shields.

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Speaker 2: He as an example, when he came out throwing ninety

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Speaker 2: four in the first inning, that was like, I get

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Speaker 2: a little bit upset, or not upset, but concerned about

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Speaker 2: it because sometimes he's just so over Anthony's He's thinking

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Speaker 2: velocity tonight, and that is counterintuitive to his great change

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Speaker 2: up is really good curveball that I thought. I kept

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Speaker 2: telling him, Man, throw that pitch more off, and it's

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Speaker 2: that good. So sometimes with my guys, if I look

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Speaker 2: at the gun and the numbers a little bit high

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Speaker 2: in that personning, sometimes I get concerned. And that to

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Speaker 2: me is where the gun plays an important role for

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Speaker 2: me as a manager just watching things like that because

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Speaker 2: they overamped, trying too hard, you know, just trying to

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Speaker 2: blow the ball by hitters and not really pitching like

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Speaker 2: they can. So those are the different things that I've

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Speaker 2: been able to that I always was able to try

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Speaker 2: to ascertain or understand from what I'm watching. But first

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Speaker 2: inning velocity can bother me sometimes. And I love especially

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Speaker 2: like a Drew Smiley, if he had been able to

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Speaker 2: finish that game, I really believe it's a difference makeup

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Speaker 2: for him career wise.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's a question. I get a lot, you know,

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Speaker 1: in today's game, where the athletes are better trained, bigger, stronger,

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Speaker 1: and they have more recovery, why are they pitching less?

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Speaker 1: And my answer is they can't. They are fully capable

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Speaker 1: of throwing more pitches, throwing more innings. They're not allowed to.

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Speaker 1: They're being trained to do less. That's your answer, it is,

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Speaker 1: That's correct. Our next topic, Joe, it's on the issue

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Speaker 1: of cookie cutter. I brought up something and I'll call

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Speaker 1: it a mini rant on LB Network, And after I

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Speaker 1: brought it up, my phone started blowing up with people

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Speaker 1: and I'm talking about former players, coaches saying right on,

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Speaker 1: brother we'll talk about that when we get back, Okay, Joe,

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Speaker 1: I mentioned I had a mini rant on MLB Network

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Speaker 1: and I saw it for the fourth time this year.

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Speaker 1: The winning run scored on a wild pitch and the

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Speaker 1: catcher was in a one knee stance. I understand the

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Speaker 1: one knee stance. I get it. I understand the game.

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Speaker 1: You want to steal pitches in the zone, especially down

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Speaker 1: on the zone. You want to take some load off

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Speaker 1: of your catcher. It's great, I love it, But when

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Speaker 1: the winning run is on third base, if the ball

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Speaker 1: gets by you and you lose the game. To me,

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Speaker 1: you must prioritize that runner on third base and not

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Speaker 1: trying to steal a low strike. I've just seen it

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Speaker 1: too many times this year, and again I understand the

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Speaker 1: premise behind it, and I agree that it works. But

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Speaker 1: you know, it's kind of like as a defender on

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Speaker 1: the field in a late game situation where you're defending

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Speaker 1: maybe the batter in the box if you're up by one,

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Speaker 1: or the runner on second base. You have to defend

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Speaker 1: the runner on third and I'm sorry, you just cannot

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Speaker 1: move your body as well when you're in a one

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Speaker 1: knee stance. So I went off a little bit on that,

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Speaker 1: and these teams doing things the same way regardless of

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Speaker 1: game situation. And that's why I started to hear from

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Speaker 1: a lot of general managers former catchers. It's like, please,

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Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought this up, because why do teams

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Speaker 1: keep doing it? Joe, you're a former catcher. They give

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Speaker 1: me your take on this topic.

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Speaker 2: Well, first of all, it's nothing new for a goud

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Speaker 2: to go to one knee. I mean, we were able

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Speaker 2: to do that back in the day. Nobody on in

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Speaker 2: less than two strikes. You would go to one knee

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Speaker 2: just to preserve your legs. And when it came to receiving,

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Speaker 2: yeah you could. The thing that ever talks about is

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Speaker 2: even angling your body on corners. I mean, just to

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Speaker 2: get to one knee, angle in right handed picture, outside corner,

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Speaker 2: right handed hitter catching, just turn your right shoulder in

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Speaker 2: a little bit and all of a sudden, boom you

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Speaker 2: present better to the pitcher. It's easy to hold that

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Speaker 2: ball moving away from you. All these little things in play.

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Speaker 2: I mean, Bob Boone was around Boonie a lot. Booney

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Speaker 2: had this great concept where he talked about you like

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Speaker 2: a little solo cup used to use to get water

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Speaker 2: out of the cooler. The circular circumference and then the

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Speaker 2: point comes back into your chest for years, booney, And

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Speaker 2: that's what I adopted. Whatever you receive on the circumference

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Speaker 2: of this cone, you just bring back, draw back to

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Speaker 2: the point low. You get lower than a low ball,

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Speaker 2: you get outside, outside and above, and you bring the

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Speaker 2: ball back. It's nothing new. It's just that all of

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Speaker 2: a sudden it became more popular again with the advent

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Speaker 2: of social media and the ability to get these kind

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Speaker 2: of messages out there. All of a sudden, it's considered

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Speaker 2: new or in vogue whatever. So yes, I'm good with

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Speaker 2: the one nobody on base. I don't have to throw

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Speaker 2: anybody out less than two strikes. I don't have to

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Speaker 2: block it. That's what you really can. Relax and do

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Speaker 2: whatever you need to do. But when there is a

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Speaker 2: runner on base, and especially now with the stolen bases

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Speaker 2: becoming so lucrative and positive, and often you do. I

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Speaker 2: used to get in trouble as a thrower when I

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Speaker 2: would get lazy with my left kneed getting or my

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Speaker 2: stum my rightney kind of going down and touching the

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Speaker 2: ground and coming back up. Wow, it was tough to

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Speaker 2: gain your rhythm throwing. So and again I listen, I

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Speaker 2: wasn't the end all, That's not what I'm saying. But

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Speaker 2: you could feel the difference. So for me, nobody on

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Speaker 2: base less than two outs sit as much as you want.

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Speaker 2: Tony Pain used to sit on the ground in Cleveland.

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Speaker 2: Nobody ever talks about this. Happened a lot. It's nothing new.

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Speaker 2: So yes, I don't like when I lose a game

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Speaker 2: when the catcher's just picking up balls with the run

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Speaker 2: around third base, winning run situation. Whatever. You can do

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Speaker 2: both things, and you could do both things well if

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Speaker 2: you nurture and t shit, and that's it. I I've

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Speaker 2: been I've been watching, I actually said recently, I think

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Speaker 2: I've been impressed with some guys that I thought, even

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Speaker 2: in spite of being on one dey, I've seen some

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Speaker 2: pretty good blocking with different catchers that have gotten that down.

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Speaker 2: They're really agi with the upper half of their body.

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Speaker 2: But and again, like I said, it does help your legs.

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Speaker 2: I mean, if you get to that position as a catcher,

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Speaker 2: the fatigue factor should be less. However, there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of technique involved here. I think you can do both

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Speaker 2: things and you pick the right time to do either.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you make a good point there, Joe.

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Speaker 1: There should be room for both. And listen, we wouldn't

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Speaker 1: tell batters to stand the exact same way in the

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Speaker 1: batter's box and they're set up. We wouldn't tell pitchers

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Speaker 1: that deliveries should be exactly the same. So catchers common

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Speaker 1: different sizes, different flexibilities, They have different strains, different levels

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Speaker 1: of agility. Why are we treating them the same? And

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Speaker 1: I understand what you're saying. I've seen guys who can

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Speaker 1: do it. You know, there's guys back there who are

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Speaker 1: very athletic who can do it, and Natalie Rushman type

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Speaker 1: of catcher. But I'm telling you you can't treat everybody

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Speaker 1: the same because I see, especially these bigger guys, when

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Speaker 1: they're on the one knee, if that pitch is going

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Speaker 1: to be on the other side, in other words, the

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Speaker 1: side where the knee is up, not where the knee

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Speaker 1: is down, he just physically cannot move to that side

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Speaker 1: and can't get the body in front of the pitch.

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Speaker 1: So you're at diversity of just being a first basement

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Speaker 1: and trying to scoop the ball backhanded. That's it. You've

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Speaker 1: lost the ability to get the body in front of

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Speaker 1: the ball.

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Speaker 2: Well the opposite foot. I mean you were saying, if

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Speaker 2: you're when you're trying to go to your right as

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Speaker 2: an example, a big part of that is pushing off

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Speaker 2: with your left foot to really extend your distance, your

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Speaker 2: ability to cover more ground on that side. So there's

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Speaker 2: it works both ways. You're always trying to use the

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Speaker 2: opposite leg to push you in that direction. You're trying

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Speaker 2: to get your body on an angle so that you

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Speaker 2: block the ball and keep it like kind of a

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Speaker 2: funnel over home plate in front of you, as opposed

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Speaker 2: to you've seen guys and this was part of my

403
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Speaker 2: scot reports prior to serious guys would go to block

404
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Speaker 2: and the ball primate would just scoll almost anywhere. So

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Speaker 2: if you could ascertain that from a certain catcher, the

406
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Speaker 2: moment you see a ball in the dirt, you're going

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Speaker 2: because you know he does not control the ball and

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Speaker 2: the dirt well in front of him, whereas there are

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Speaker 2: others that it'll hit them and it is like a

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Speaker 2: sponge and the ball pretty much just falls right in

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Speaker 2: front of the catcher. More difficult to really the anticipate

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Speaker 2: ball in the dirt in advance. So all these all

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Speaker 2: these things have always been there, and again people are

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Speaker 2: react as though it's new and it's never been spoken

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Speaker 2: about before. It has different guys athletically could do different things.

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Speaker 2: But back in the day, if you got caught that

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Speaker 2: ball got by you because you were received to be

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Speaker 2: lazy in regards to your stance and how you moved,

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Speaker 2: there'd be a lot of questions to answer right there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the difference now is we have all

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Speaker 1: these measurables, right, So I go back. I really thought

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Speaker 1: it really began to proliferate with the Minnesota Twins. They

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Speaker 1: had Mitch Garber there who was not a plus defender

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Speaker 1: behind the plate, and they're catching instructor Tanner Swanson had

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Speaker 1: him adopt the one knee, and you know, if you

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Speaker 1: look at the metrics that show the Twins were getting

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Speaker 1: more pitches that year. And I'm not a one hundred

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Speaker 1: percent believer in some of these metrics, an umpire can

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Speaker 1: flat out miss a pitch and the catcher will get

430
00:22:00,358 --> 00:22:04,158
Speaker 1: credit for framing it. But that being said, you know,

431
00:22:04,198 --> 00:22:07,278
Speaker 1: the Yankees actually hired Tanner Swanson because the Twins did

432
00:22:07,278 --> 00:22:09,798
Speaker 1: such a good job stealing pitches and it's a thing

433
00:22:09,878 --> 00:22:14,718
Speaker 1: in baseball now where they're chasing these metrics of pitch framing.

434
00:22:14,958 --> 00:22:17,798
Speaker 1: So what Tony pain you did now is that there's

435
00:22:17,878 --> 00:22:21,318
Speaker 1: numbers being attached to it and that's why it's proliferated.

436
00:22:21,718 --> 00:22:24,118
Speaker 1: And hey, Joe, I want to give you some props

437
00:22:24,198 --> 00:22:27,238
Speaker 1: because you called something before the year started on pitchouts,

438
00:22:27,758 --> 00:22:31,238
Speaker 1: and I've actually started to see a few old school pitchouts.

439
00:22:31,278 --> 00:22:33,958
Speaker 1: We talked about the proliferation of stolen bases with the

440
00:22:33,998 --> 00:22:37,438
Speaker 1: new rules, and one way to combat that is with

441
00:22:37,558 --> 00:22:39,878
Speaker 1: pitch outs. I've seen it, especially if you've had one

442
00:22:39,998 --> 00:22:43,118
Speaker 1: or two disengagements by the pitcher and now the runner

443
00:22:43,158 --> 00:22:46,398
Speaker 1: thinks it's green light time and you hold count leverage.

444
00:22:46,598 --> 00:22:49,078
Speaker 1: Great spot to have a pitchcat. I saw Brian Snicker

445
00:22:49,118 --> 00:22:50,998
Speaker 1: do it the other day. And you're not seeing like

446
00:22:51,038 --> 00:22:53,158
Speaker 1: we did in the eighties. But I think it's coming

447
00:22:53,198 --> 00:22:54,878
Speaker 1: back a little bit. And credit to you, Joe, you

448
00:22:54,918 --> 00:22:56,438
Speaker 1: saw that coming well.

449
00:22:56,558 --> 00:22:58,078
Speaker 2: I mean, let me just go back to one thing

450
00:22:58,078 --> 00:23:00,678
Speaker 2: real quick and hold that thought. But the framing part

451
00:23:00,718 --> 00:23:04,398
Speaker 2: of it, I'm surprised that umpires are not more offended

452
00:23:04,438 --> 00:23:06,118
Speaker 2: by all this. I really am. I mean the fact

453
00:23:06,118 --> 00:23:09,318
Speaker 2: that they're being deceived. I mean, I know they have

454
00:23:09,398 --> 00:23:11,558
Speaker 2: to go over things, but if I know I'm being

455
00:23:11,598 --> 00:23:14,038
Speaker 2: deceived by catcher pulling pitches, and I watch it all

456
00:23:14,078 --> 00:23:17,958
Speaker 2: the time Back in the day, man again, you the

457
00:23:18,038 --> 00:23:20,158
Speaker 2: guy would just tell you flat out don't do that.

458
00:23:20,318 --> 00:23:24,918
Speaker 2: You're not going to get anything. So I'm still baffled

459
00:23:24,958 --> 00:23:27,198
Speaker 2: by the fact that umpires have not been offended by

460
00:23:27,238 --> 00:23:30,838
Speaker 2: this framing proliferation over the last several years, and what

461
00:23:30,878 --> 00:23:33,598
Speaker 2: it means and how it makes them not look so good.

462
00:23:34,038 --> 00:23:37,758
Speaker 2: So that part I've always I'm amazed about number two

463
00:23:38,198 --> 00:23:40,198
Speaker 2: to pitch out. Part of it is a lot of

464
00:23:40,238 --> 00:23:43,118
Speaker 2: these managers have never pitched out. Some of the bench

465
00:23:43,158 --> 00:23:46,438
Speaker 2: coaches have. And the thing you're always concerned about is

466
00:23:46,478 --> 00:23:48,958
Speaker 2: how's my pitcher going to react if I'm wrong? And

467
00:23:48,998 --> 00:23:51,518
Speaker 2: I used to have those conversations with my pitchers in

468
00:23:51,558 --> 00:23:55,598
Speaker 2: the preseason. Listen, if I'm wrong, don't blow up. You're

469
00:23:55,718 --> 00:23:59,558
Speaker 2: very capable of throwing a strike after throwing an intentional ball.

470
00:23:59,958 --> 00:24:03,278
Speaker 2: I've seen you do it before, Kyle Hendricks. I never

471
00:24:03,318 --> 00:24:04,918
Speaker 2: got to the point where I did it, but I

472
00:24:05,238 --> 00:24:07,118
Speaker 2: talked to him about this, I said, Kyle, because you're

473
00:24:07,478 --> 00:24:09,318
Speaker 2: you know, you're sinker ball guy, you put the ball

474
00:24:09,358 --> 00:24:12,958
Speaker 2: on the ground. Would you be offended if I'm wrong?

475
00:24:13,038 --> 00:24:14,718
Speaker 2: If we pitch out on a two to one count

476
00:24:14,758 --> 00:24:17,878
Speaker 2: as an example, and he said, no, go for it, man.

477
00:24:18,158 --> 00:24:21,998
Speaker 2: Kyle's beautiful man. But these are the kind of strategies

478
00:24:22,078 --> 00:24:25,558
Speaker 2: you need to discuss in advance. You're able to find

479
00:24:25,558 --> 00:24:27,918
Speaker 2: out what are the counts when guys like to go. Normally,

480
00:24:27,918 --> 00:24:30,478
Speaker 2: it's early in account that you're going to especially today,

481
00:24:30,518 --> 00:24:32,598
Speaker 2: and with the good base dealers of the past, they

482
00:24:32,638 --> 00:24:34,798
Speaker 2: would want to run early in the account as opposed

483
00:24:34,798 --> 00:24:37,238
Speaker 2: to late in the account. Number one. Number two. If

484
00:24:37,238 --> 00:24:39,238
Speaker 2: teams are playing a four game series. If I'm playing

485
00:24:39,238 --> 00:24:41,198
Speaker 2: a four game series against a team right now that

486
00:24:41,318 --> 00:24:43,678
Speaker 2: likes to run, I definitely want to pitch out in

487
00:24:43,718 --> 00:24:46,518
Speaker 2: that first game, and I would alert my pitchers and

488
00:24:46,558 --> 00:24:48,878
Speaker 2: catchers listen, we're going to pitch out more in this

489
00:24:48,918 --> 00:24:50,438
Speaker 2: first game, because I want them to think about it

490
00:24:50,438 --> 00:24:52,838
Speaker 2: because they're here for four days. In the Texas League,

491
00:24:52,838 --> 00:24:55,358
Speaker 2: it was five and sometimes six game series. So I

492
00:24:55,358 --> 00:24:56,918
Speaker 2: would always tell my guys the same they We're going

493
00:24:56,958 --> 00:24:59,998
Speaker 2: to pitch out in this first game multiple times, just

494
00:25:00,038 --> 00:25:02,678
Speaker 2: to see if that slows them down. So these are

495
00:25:02,718 --> 00:25:07,118
Speaker 2: the seed of doubt is a very powerful tool to

496
00:25:07,238 --> 00:25:09,758
Speaker 2: put in place against your opposition. If you could plant

497
00:25:09,798 --> 00:25:13,398
Speaker 2: that seed, it could work in your favorite advantage as

498
00:25:13,438 --> 00:25:16,478
Speaker 2: as the series goes along. So again it's it's just

499
00:25:16,558 --> 00:25:18,438
Speaker 2: it's not in a vacuum. All these things need to

500
00:25:18,438 --> 00:25:20,878
Speaker 2: be considered and you have to be willing to take

501
00:25:20,998 --> 00:25:24,438
Speaker 2: chances and break down to the fact that I looking

502
00:25:24,518 --> 00:25:26,758
Speaker 2: at the base runner and what he does differently, and

503
00:25:26,758 --> 00:25:29,838
Speaker 2: there's there's there's definitely things you can see with the

504
00:25:29,918 --> 00:25:33,238
Speaker 2: runner signs where he only looks like he's going when

505
00:25:33,238 --> 00:25:35,758
Speaker 2: he's leaning. But the better base runners to me, where

506
00:25:35,798 --> 00:25:37,798
Speaker 2: that guys that always looked like they were going and

507
00:25:37,838 --> 00:25:40,758
Speaker 2: they didn't. I always encourage my guys to always look

508
00:25:40,798 --> 00:25:43,518
Speaker 2: like you're going and an attempt to deceive those that

509
00:25:43,558 --> 00:25:46,078
Speaker 2: are making a calling pitch out. So all this stuff

510
00:25:46,118 --> 00:25:46,798
Speaker 2: was in play.

511
00:25:46,598 --> 00:25:50,078
Speaker 1: Man looking runnersh I call it. I think that's a

512
00:25:50,118 --> 00:25:53,158
Speaker 1: great idea, especially Joe in today's game. If I'm a

513
00:25:53,238 --> 00:25:55,558
Speaker 1: runner and I know I have the even the threat

514
00:25:55,558 --> 00:25:58,318
Speaker 1: of a stolen base, look like you're going to run,

515
00:25:58,398 --> 00:26:00,918
Speaker 1: because what you could do now is you can start

516
00:26:01,038 --> 00:26:04,078
Speaker 1: using up those disengagements correct and that's going to make

517
00:26:04,118 --> 00:26:06,718
Speaker 1: it easier to run. So yeah, I'm with you guys

518
00:26:06,758 --> 00:26:08,598
Speaker 1: who have a short lead and the hands are on

519
00:26:08,678 --> 00:26:11,638
Speaker 1: their hips. I'm not into that. And listen, I love

520
00:26:11,678 --> 00:26:14,118
Speaker 1: the idea too. Have shown your playbook early in the series,

521
00:26:14,438 --> 00:26:17,518
Speaker 1: letting the other team know that you will use those tools.

522
00:26:17,878 --> 00:26:19,558
Speaker 1: And speaking of tools, and we're going to bring this

523
00:26:19,558 --> 00:26:21,678
Speaker 1: all the way back to Griffin Canning. I saw something

524
00:26:21,678 --> 00:26:24,358
Speaker 1: in that game, Joe was just I loved it. You know,

525
00:26:24,398 --> 00:26:26,558
Speaker 1: the Yankees now in the minor leagues are teaching this

526
00:26:26,678 --> 00:26:29,558
Speaker 1: vault lead at first base, and we've seen Anthony Vaulty

527
00:26:29,598 --> 00:26:32,398
Speaker 1: do it in the major leagues. Well, the Angels came

528
00:26:32,478 --> 00:26:35,638
Speaker 1: up with the antidote to it. They actually put on

529
00:26:35,678 --> 00:26:38,838
Speaker 1: a plan time pickoff play, which I've never seen at

530
00:26:38,838 --> 00:26:41,638
Speaker 1: first base. Joe, maybe you have, but I've seen at

531
00:26:41,678 --> 00:26:45,158
Speaker 1: second base a lot where the pitcher doesn't look at

532
00:26:45,198 --> 00:26:48,078
Speaker 1: the runner. He's just following the catcher's lead. And when

533
00:26:48,118 --> 00:26:52,398
Speaker 1: that catcher flashes the glove down, yeah, the players on

534
00:26:52,718 --> 00:26:56,358
Speaker 1: the pitcher spins and turns. In this case, the catcher

535
00:26:56,478 --> 00:27:00,558
Speaker 1: flashed his glove immediately when Perraza started doing the vault lead,

536
00:27:00,598 --> 00:27:02,958
Speaker 1: that little hop lead at first base. So he's stuck

537
00:27:02,998 --> 00:27:05,798
Speaker 1: in the air as Canning, and you know, Kenning's got

538
00:27:05,838 --> 00:27:09,158
Speaker 1: really quick feet. Good athlete picked him off at first base.

539
00:27:09,518 --> 00:27:12,398
Speaker 1: I love that. That's just a great job of the

540
00:27:12,438 --> 00:27:15,438
Speaker 1: Angel scouting and coming up with a way to defend

541
00:27:16,278 --> 00:27:17,878
Speaker 1: what's sort of a trend now in the game, these

542
00:27:17,958 --> 00:27:18,598
Speaker 1: vault leads.

543
00:27:18,998 --> 00:27:21,358
Speaker 2: Was that was just a runner on first base only.

544
00:27:21,198 --> 00:27:23,438
Speaker 1: That's it run around first base. As I said, I've

545
00:27:23,518 --> 00:27:26,118
Speaker 1: not seen that at first base. I've only seen that

546
00:27:26,158 --> 00:27:27,878
Speaker 1: at second base. Of course you don't need it now

547
00:27:27,878 --> 00:27:30,358
Speaker 1: with PitchCom. You can do that with PitchCom, but at

548
00:27:30,398 --> 00:27:33,318
Speaker 1: first base, the catcher can see the runner at first

549
00:27:33,318 --> 00:27:35,958
Speaker 1: base do his vault and that's when the glove goes down.

550
00:27:36,038 --> 00:27:37,878
Speaker 1: Sure kudos for the Angels. Nice play.

551
00:27:38,278 --> 00:27:40,678
Speaker 2: Yeah, Tony Gwinn was really good at that. At second base.

552
00:27:40,718 --> 00:27:43,478
Speaker 2: There was a lot of guys that were really good.

553
00:27:43,358 --> 00:27:46,638
Speaker 2: The runner at second base take his lead, pitcher looks

554
00:27:46,678 --> 00:27:49,318
Speaker 2: at him, he stands still. The moment the pitcher looks back,

555
00:27:49,358 --> 00:27:51,838
Speaker 2: he takes a hop and then if the pitcher doesn't

556
00:27:51,838 --> 00:27:54,558
Speaker 2: come back at him, then he goes. So there's all

557
00:27:54,598 --> 00:27:57,038
Speaker 2: these little the nuance with the I'd never heard it

558
00:27:57,118 --> 00:27:59,998
Speaker 2: called the vault lead. I understand that but yeah, you

559
00:28:00,038 --> 00:28:01,638
Speaker 2: can do that. The other one would be when that's

560
00:28:01,678 --> 00:28:03,678
Speaker 2: what I was asking about runners on first and second

561
00:28:04,438 --> 00:28:07,558
Speaker 2: picture comes set and he looks this way like towards

562
00:28:07,558 --> 00:28:10,158
Speaker 2: second base, and that's when they run. The first basement

563
00:28:10,158 --> 00:28:12,998
Speaker 2: breaks behind the runner at first base from a right

564
00:28:12,998 --> 00:28:15,278
Speaker 2: handed picture, and you have a chance to pick him there.

565
00:28:15,318 --> 00:28:18,438
Speaker 2: So there's there's all these picks have been in play before.

566
00:28:19,318 --> 00:28:21,878
Speaker 2: I don't know that I've necessarily seen glove down with

567
00:28:21,918 --> 00:28:24,678
Speaker 2: the runner at first base. Only glove down was a

568
00:28:24,678 --> 00:28:27,718
Speaker 2: big play with the runner on second base. The thing

569
00:28:27,758 --> 00:28:30,158
Speaker 2: with all of that too, is and I've always all

570
00:28:30,158 --> 00:28:32,758
Speaker 2: these pickoff plays for me. Once you put him in

571
00:28:32,798 --> 00:28:35,998
Speaker 2: the spring training, that's beautiful, But you need to have

572
00:28:36,198 --> 00:28:39,598
Speaker 2: reoccurring like during PfP pictures fielding practice during the season.

573
00:28:39,918 --> 00:28:42,238
Speaker 2: You bring your guys out maybe I don't know once

574
00:28:42,398 --> 00:28:45,358
Speaker 2: every other homestand a ten game homestand and review. You

575
00:28:45,478 --> 00:28:48,158
Speaker 2: review the timing and the mechanics of these plays because

576
00:28:48,158 --> 00:28:50,438
Speaker 2: then you will use them. And then furthermore, you have

577
00:28:50,478 --> 00:28:52,638
Speaker 2: to know which pictures are comfortable doing this stuff or not.

578
00:28:53,078 --> 00:28:56,718
Speaker 2: All these all these little nuance matters. Some pictures don't

579
00:28:56,758 --> 00:28:58,678
Speaker 2: like to throw to first base, as you know, and

580
00:28:58,718 --> 00:29:01,398
Speaker 2: so you can't work certain plays with certain pictures. And

581
00:29:02,198 --> 00:29:04,758
Speaker 2: then the timing in and of itself. Some guys forget

582
00:29:04,798 --> 00:29:06,838
Speaker 2: what the timing is all about. Crazy, but it's true.

583
00:29:06,958 --> 00:29:08,998
Speaker 2: So you need to remind yourself during the season with

584
00:29:09,078 --> 00:29:14,798
Speaker 2: little vignette, small practices during homestand to cover your pickoff

585
00:29:14,798 --> 00:29:16,478
Speaker 2: plays if you really want to get into them.

586
00:29:16,798 --> 00:29:19,238
Speaker 1: I really enjoy talking about this stuff with you, Joe.

587
00:29:19,318 --> 00:29:22,238
Speaker 1: I mean, you see the game in such a detailed way,

588
00:29:22,318 --> 00:29:25,918
Speaker 1: but it doesn't know, you don't get really caught up

589
00:29:25,958 --> 00:29:27,758
Speaker 1: in it, but you understand what you're seeing it. I

590
00:29:27,758 --> 00:29:30,038
Speaker 1: think you're training as a catcher probably comes into play

591
00:29:30,038 --> 00:29:32,078
Speaker 1: as a manager, where you see the whole field and

592
00:29:33,518 --> 00:29:35,478
Speaker 1: you're responsible basically for every position.

593
00:29:35,518 --> 00:29:38,158
Speaker 2: When you're a catcher, you are, I mean, and listen,

594
00:29:38,238 --> 00:29:42,918
Speaker 2: you you're you know catching. It is true, you could

595
00:29:42,958 --> 00:29:44,838
Speaker 2: go for four and stink at the play, but if

596
00:29:44,878 --> 00:29:46,638
Speaker 2: your pitcher pitches well and you win the game, you

597
00:29:46,678 --> 00:29:49,038
Speaker 2: go home. You're exalted. That is like, that's like going

598
00:29:49,038 --> 00:29:52,438
Speaker 2: three to four with the bomb. And with the catcher's perspective,

599
00:29:52,958 --> 00:29:54,798
Speaker 2: you are you are watching the whole game and right

600
00:29:54,838 --> 00:29:56,838
Speaker 2: down to the point where you're handling the pitching staff,

601
00:29:57,118 --> 00:30:00,838
Speaker 2: which truly is the game. I mean, for me, catchers

602
00:30:00,838 --> 00:30:06,518
Speaker 2: that really spend quality time understanding the game plan but

603
00:30:06,598 --> 00:30:09,758
Speaker 2: also understanding how to get your guy through some difficult moments,

604
00:30:09,798 --> 00:30:13,758
Speaker 2: the conversations in the dugout, there's the proper trips to

605
00:30:13,838 --> 00:30:16,518
Speaker 2: the mount at the right time. All that stuff matters.

606
00:30:16,558 --> 00:30:19,118
Speaker 2: And again you talk about this. Everybody talks about this

607
00:30:19,318 --> 00:30:22,718
Speaker 2: or mentions it, but there's really never into detail how

608
00:30:22,718 --> 00:30:26,998
Speaker 2: important this actually is. So Yadi, even Lina, Why were

609
00:30:27,038 --> 00:30:29,758
Speaker 2: the Cardinals so successful for so long? There you go,

610
00:30:30,318 --> 00:30:32,838
Speaker 2: this guy had all that feel and he was so

611
00:30:33,158 --> 00:30:34,998
Speaker 2: good at picking the right times to do things. And

612
00:30:35,118 --> 00:30:37,158
Speaker 2: is remember how calm he would walk out to the

613
00:30:37,558 --> 00:30:41,318
Speaker 2: mound in a really tight situation. Part of the effect

614
00:30:41,318 --> 00:30:44,438
Speaker 2: there was walking slowly to the mound and making sure

615
00:30:44,518 --> 00:30:48,278
Speaker 2: my guy slowed things down. And I know that's counterintuitive

616
00:30:48,318 --> 00:30:51,078
Speaker 2: to today's game, but those are the kind of the Again,

617
00:30:51,158 --> 00:30:53,838
Speaker 2: nuance is so important. That's really helped that Cardinal staff

618
00:30:54,278 --> 00:30:57,398
Speaker 2: for so many years was Yadi slow walk to the mount.

619
00:30:57,758 --> 00:31:01,598
Speaker 1: I agree, catchers, they are managers in training, at least

620
00:31:01,598 --> 00:31:04,918
Speaker 1: the good ones. Hey, this is Hall of fame, and

621
00:31:04,958 --> 00:31:07,678
Speaker 1: when we get back, I want to give proper due

622
00:31:07,678 --> 00:31:10,598
Speaker 1: and respect to the newest Hall of Famer is being

623
00:31:10,638 --> 00:31:14,878
Speaker 1: inducted Sunday in Cooperstown, New York, Scott Rolland and Freddie McGriff.

624
00:31:15,558 --> 00:31:28,238
Speaker 1: We'll be right back, Joe. It's always a great time

625
00:31:28,278 --> 00:31:32,198
Speaker 1: in Cooperstown, New York. If any of our listeners haven't

626
00:31:32,238 --> 00:31:34,998
Speaker 1: been there, it's definitely worth a trip, whether they're there

627
00:31:35,038 --> 00:31:39,398
Speaker 1: for induction weekend or not, Matt. If you love baseball,

628
00:31:39,518 --> 00:31:42,758
Speaker 1: it's a bucket list destination and it is fun. With

629
00:31:42,998 --> 00:31:46,398
Speaker 1: its induction weekend. It means so much to the guys

630
00:31:46,398 --> 00:31:48,038
Speaker 1: who are in the Hall of Fame, and especially the

631
00:31:48,118 --> 00:31:49,998
Speaker 1: ones going in. As I mentioned this year, we have

632
00:31:50,038 --> 00:31:53,558
Speaker 1: Scott Roland and Freddie McGriff. Let's start with Freddie first,

633
00:31:54,238 --> 00:31:56,958
Speaker 1: Tampa guy, Joe. I'm not sure if he was around

634
00:31:56,998 --> 00:32:00,838
Speaker 1: your raised teams much, but just a terrific human being.

635
00:32:01,198 --> 00:32:04,398
Speaker 1: I was a writer who voted every year for fred griff,

636
00:32:04,478 --> 00:32:07,278
Speaker 1: and he went oher for ten on the writer's ballot.

637
00:32:07,438 --> 00:32:10,598
Speaker 1: In all my years voting, I can't recall a time

638
00:32:11,278 --> 00:32:17,038
Speaker 1: where a player received really criminal support when it talks.

639
00:32:17,198 --> 00:32:19,278
Speaker 1: When I talk about Freddy never even getting to the

640
00:32:19,318 --> 00:32:23,878
Speaker 1: halfway point. He got on a committee vote the Contemporary

641
00:32:23,918 --> 00:32:27,718
Speaker 1: Era Committee and went in unanimously. So good for Fred McGriff.

642
00:32:28,518 --> 00:32:31,918
Speaker 1: He definitely deserves it. Your thoughts on crime Dog.

643
00:32:32,238 --> 00:32:35,758
Speaker 2: Yeah, so happy. Freddie is wonderful. He is all of that.

644
00:32:36,518 --> 00:32:38,678
Speaker 2: When I first got the job with the Devil Rays,

645
00:32:38,878 --> 00:32:41,958
Speaker 2: I invited several former Rays double Rays to come out

646
00:32:41,958 --> 00:32:44,078
Speaker 2: to camp, and of course Freddie was one of them,

647
00:32:44,118 --> 00:32:47,078
Speaker 2: and that's how I got to know him. Him, David Martinez,

648
00:32:47,158 --> 00:32:51,518
Speaker 2: Haid Davy coming on out, Roberto Hernandez, some dudes that

649
00:32:51,558 --> 00:32:55,278
Speaker 2: had played prior to that. So Freddie shows up and

650
00:32:55,358 --> 00:32:57,758
Speaker 2: first of all, never heard the guy laugh. It's the

651
00:32:57,758 --> 00:33:00,038
Speaker 2: most contagious laugh in history, and you just can't help

652
00:33:00,438 --> 00:33:03,078
Speaker 2: he just does all that. But as a baseball player,

653
00:33:03,398 --> 00:33:07,918
Speaker 2: you know, worked against him from the other dugout such

654
00:33:08,038 --> 00:33:09,958
Speaker 2: a good hit. I mean, everybody just talks about power,

655
00:33:09,958 --> 00:33:11,918
Speaker 2: and he had four in ninety three home runs and

656
00:33:12,478 --> 00:33:15,278
Speaker 2: mismissed that five hundred whatever. But this guy can hit,

657
00:33:15,878 --> 00:33:18,918
Speaker 2: and for a power hitter, he really pretty much balanced

658
00:33:18,918 --> 00:33:22,558
Speaker 2: out his walks to strikeouts, which I always consider when

659
00:33:22,558 --> 00:33:24,518
Speaker 2: I look at a hitter. So that was something I

660
00:33:24,558 --> 00:33:26,518
Speaker 2: thought was interesting, as Ops was way up there. In

661
00:33:26,518 --> 00:33:30,598
Speaker 2: the fact he played nineteen years, right, was it nineteen, Yeah,

662
00:33:30,638 --> 00:33:31,158
Speaker 2: something like that.

663
00:33:31,198 --> 00:33:33,118
Speaker 1: He was just so consistent too.

664
00:33:33,398 --> 00:33:35,318
Speaker 2: You have the longevity component of all this. You have

665
00:33:35,358 --> 00:33:37,998
Speaker 2: to consider all that. So he had power, he was

666
00:33:38,038 --> 00:33:41,398
Speaker 2: a good hitter, he had a great concept of the

667
00:33:41,438 --> 00:33:44,518
Speaker 2: strike zone, he played wonderful defense, and on top of that,

668
00:33:44,798 --> 00:33:49,118
Speaker 2: in the clubhouse, like you already mentioned, hard to beat

669
00:33:49,398 --> 00:33:53,998
Speaker 2: Freddie as a guy. He's a man's man within the clubhouse,

670
00:33:54,198 --> 00:33:57,238
Speaker 2: funny guy and also a great baseball player. So I

671
00:33:57,238 --> 00:33:59,438
Speaker 2: couldn't be happier for him. He was a little bit

672
00:33:59,438 --> 00:34:02,078
Speaker 2: in the angels the race front office when I was

673
00:34:02,118 --> 00:34:03,918
Speaker 2: down there, and I did get him to come out

674
00:34:04,038 --> 00:34:05,918
Speaker 2: the camp and I did get him to participate a

675
00:34:05,958 --> 00:34:08,718
Speaker 2: little bit, but the draw of Old Memorial golf Course

676
00:34:08,718 --> 00:34:12,358
Speaker 2: got him quite often. But regardless, I really liked the

677
00:34:12,398 --> 00:34:14,798
Speaker 2: guy a lot, and I'm very pleased for his getting

678
00:34:14,838 --> 00:34:15,318
Speaker 2: into the Hall.

679
00:34:15,638 --> 00:34:18,518
Speaker 1: Yeah, Listen, one of the things many things about Freddy

680
00:34:18,598 --> 00:34:22,758
Speaker 1: that stands out is he defined a cleanup hitter when

681
00:34:22,758 --> 00:34:25,438
Speaker 1: that term really meaned a lot. And I know lineup

682
00:34:25,438 --> 00:34:27,598
Speaker 1: construction has changed a lot, but for the better part

683
00:34:27,598 --> 00:34:31,918
Speaker 1: of baseball history, the cleanup hitter was the rock solid guy, right.

684
00:34:31,998 --> 00:34:33,958
Speaker 1: He was the guy who's going to provide power. He's

685
00:34:33,998 --> 00:34:35,958
Speaker 1: going to drive in runs. And if you're a manager

686
00:34:35,998 --> 00:34:39,358
Speaker 1: and you've got Fred McGriff, you can almost print your

687
00:34:39,398 --> 00:34:41,798
Speaker 1: lineup cards with his name in there because he posted

688
00:34:41,918 --> 00:34:44,838
Speaker 1: every day. There's only two players in the history of

689
00:34:44,838 --> 00:34:48,438
Speaker 1: this game who have batted cleanup more than Fred McGriff.

690
00:34:48,638 --> 00:34:52,398
Speaker 1: That's Eddie Murray and Honus Wagner, two first ballot Hall

691
00:34:52,438 --> 00:34:55,398
Speaker 1: of Famers. And I'll tell you a quick story, Joe,

692
00:34:55,438 --> 00:34:58,198
Speaker 1: about what it meant to opposing managers when you had

693
00:34:58,198 --> 00:35:00,718
Speaker 1: the presence of Fred McGriff in a lineup to deal with.

694
00:35:00,998 --> 00:35:03,838
Speaker 1: It's Game five in the nineteen ninety six World Series.

695
00:35:04,518 --> 00:35:06,998
Speaker 1: The Yankees are in Atlanta. They're clinging to a one

696
00:35:07,078 --> 00:35:10,558
Speaker 1: to nothing lead. It's the ninth inning and Joe Tory

697
00:35:10,638 --> 00:35:14,998
Speaker 1: has two runners on base and Andy Pettitt, his pitcher,

698
00:35:15,678 --> 00:35:19,278
Speaker 1: is due up. Now, common sense tells you you hit

699
00:35:19,278 --> 00:35:22,038
Speaker 1: for Andy Pettitt. You try to go for an insurance

700
00:35:22,118 --> 00:35:24,478
Speaker 1: running that situation, and you turn the game over to

701
00:35:24,558 --> 00:35:29,798
Speaker 1: your closer, John Wetland. Instead, Tory lets Andy Pettitt back,

702
00:35:30,758 --> 00:35:34,278
Speaker 1: and Andy's wife is in the stands Laura, and she says,

703
00:35:34,398 --> 00:35:38,158
Speaker 1: what is he doing? He never does this Andy never

704
00:35:38,238 --> 00:35:41,678
Speaker 1: pitches the ninth inning. When I asked Tory about it later,

705
00:35:41,878 --> 00:35:44,798
Speaker 1: he said, I did it because Fred McGriff was due

706
00:35:44,878 --> 00:35:47,998
Speaker 1: second in that bottom of the ninth inning. And he said,

707
00:35:48,078 --> 00:35:51,558
Speaker 1: fred McGriff scared the you know what out of me.

708
00:35:52,278 --> 00:35:54,198
Speaker 1: And Freddy read the book we put in the book

709
00:35:54,238 --> 00:35:57,278
Speaker 1: The Yankee Years, and he was just blown away. Freddy

710
00:35:57,358 --> 00:35:59,918
Speaker 1: such a humble guy, as you know, Joe. He thought

711
00:35:59,918 --> 00:36:03,238
Speaker 1: that was the ultimate compliment that another manager thought so

712
00:36:03,438 --> 00:36:07,438
Speaker 1: much of him that Joe Torrey left Andy Pettitt in

713
00:36:07,438 --> 00:36:10,398
Speaker 1: in a one nothing game to bat just because he

714
00:36:10,438 --> 00:36:12,718
Speaker 1: wanted the left handed Pettit to pitch the bottom of

715
00:36:12,758 --> 00:36:16,598
Speaker 1: the ninth to Fred McGriff. And it worked out. I mean,

716
00:36:16,718 --> 00:36:19,158
Speaker 1: Wetland eventually came in and closed the game out and

717
00:36:19,198 --> 00:36:22,078
Speaker 1: the Yankees won one to nothing. That's Fred McGriff, the

718
00:36:22,118 --> 00:36:24,718
Speaker 1: specter of Fred McGriff in the lineup, and he changed

719
00:36:24,718 --> 00:36:27,678
Speaker 1: the Braves team of the nineties by the acquisition from

720
00:36:27,718 --> 00:36:31,398
Speaker 1: San Diego. You know this as a manager, Joe, there's

721
00:36:31,398 --> 00:36:33,318
Speaker 1: certain guys in the in the lineup that you have

722
00:36:33,438 --> 00:36:36,718
Speaker 1: to account for all the time, and they will dictate decisions.

723
00:36:36,958 --> 00:36:38,678
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wasn't an a game like that. But at

724
00:36:38,718 --> 00:36:41,318
Speaker 2: the time I walked Josh Hamilton with the bases loaded

725
00:36:41,398 --> 00:36:44,678
Speaker 2: in Texas, that was, you know, the first time I

726
00:36:44,718 --> 00:36:47,358
Speaker 2: did anything like that. And furthermore, he's just talking about

727
00:36:47,398 --> 00:36:51,958
Speaker 2: that situation Zim sitting right next to Joe, right Don Zimmer, Yep,

728
00:36:52,038 --> 00:36:55,198
Speaker 2: I'd love to have heard that conversation because his I mean,

729
00:36:55,238 --> 00:36:57,998
Speaker 2: I can imagine if Joe had said that to Zim.

730
00:36:58,478 --> 00:37:01,558
Speaker 2: I know immediately that Zim would have supported that decision

731
00:37:01,558 --> 00:37:06,278
Speaker 2: because he loved the outside the bar kind of connotation

732
00:37:06,478 --> 00:37:09,798
Speaker 2: to it. I'd be curious to test Joe about that

733
00:37:11,158 --> 00:37:14,038
Speaker 2: or if Zim had possibly ran it by him before,

734
00:37:14,398 --> 00:37:18,038
Speaker 2: because that is a classic that's where manager bench coach

735
00:37:18,078 --> 00:37:20,918
Speaker 2: worked really well together. When you get Joe and Zim

736
00:37:20,958 --> 00:37:23,838
Speaker 2: working together like that, both respect each other so much,

737
00:37:24,118 --> 00:37:26,758
Speaker 2: and you have a manager there that's not unwilling to

738
00:37:26,878 --> 00:37:29,998
Speaker 2: listen or take advice from a guy like Zim or

739
00:37:30,038 --> 00:37:34,758
Speaker 2: a guy like Tory talking to Don, and Zim would

740
00:37:34,758 --> 00:37:37,038
Speaker 2: be there and support one hundred percent of my support

741
00:37:37,038 --> 00:37:38,718
Speaker 2: what you're talking about right here. So that had to

742
00:37:38,758 --> 00:37:40,718
Speaker 2: be a great conversation leading up to that moment.

743
00:37:41,038 --> 00:37:44,998
Speaker 1: There's a great observation the byplay, the relationship between Tory

744
00:37:44,998 --> 00:37:48,358
Speaker 1: and Zimmer was that's the ideal situation because don Zimmers

745
00:37:48,438 --> 00:37:50,918
Speaker 1: you know, I love to play an aggressive game, and

746
00:37:50,998 --> 00:37:53,638
Speaker 1: he would put thoughts in Joe's mind that otherwise might

747
00:37:53,678 --> 00:37:55,598
Speaker 1: not have been there. It doesn't mean that Joe was

748
00:37:55,638 --> 00:37:57,598
Speaker 1: following him one hundred percent of the time. But if

749
00:37:57,678 --> 00:38:00,838
Speaker 1: Joe decided not to take a suggestion and Zim from

750
00:38:00,958 --> 00:38:03,478
Speaker 1: Zim and implement it, it wasn't like Zim was offended.

751
00:38:03,638 --> 00:38:06,638
Speaker 1: You just move on to the next play. Yeah, I

752
00:38:06,678 --> 00:38:07,718
Speaker 1: mean that's.

753
00:38:07,318 --> 00:38:09,998
Speaker 2: How about the World Series with the Indians. He was

754
00:38:09,998 --> 00:38:11,758
Speaker 2: in my head there, that's right when we tried to bunt.

755
00:38:11,798 --> 00:38:13,878
Speaker 2: I tried to bun with a hobby with the full county.

756
00:38:15,038 --> 00:38:19,318
Speaker 2: Here do it. He can't do it.

757
00:38:19,358 --> 00:38:24,558
Speaker 1: So he's influencing even you. He don Okay, Scott Roland,

758
00:38:24,718 --> 00:38:26,998
Speaker 1: you don't kind of like McGriff I mean, Freddie went

759
00:38:26,998 --> 00:38:29,918
Speaker 1: over ten on the writer's ballot. It took Scott rolling

760
00:38:30,238 --> 00:38:33,038
Speaker 1: six ballots to get into the Hall of Fame. And

761
00:38:33,078 --> 00:38:36,358
Speaker 1: I love their stories. I think they're instructive because you know,

762
00:38:36,598 --> 00:38:40,798
Speaker 1: not every Hall of Famer was MVP. Not every Hall

763
00:38:40,838 --> 00:38:44,318
Speaker 1: of Famer played for one team his whole career. You

764
00:38:44,358 --> 00:38:48,478
Speaker 1: know there's some longer paths to Cooperstown and Roland, like McGriff,

765
00:38:48,558 --> 00:38:51,358
Speaker 1: played for a bunch of teams. But when you break

766
00:38:51,398 --> 00:38:54,678
Speaker 1: down the numbers, Scott Roland was one of the ten

767
00:38:54,998 --> 00:38:58,518
Speaker 1: best third basemen of all time. And that's true when

768
00:38:58,558 --> 00:39:03,438
Speaker 1: you look at the way he combined base running, especially defense, slugging,

769
00:39:03,758 --> 00:39:07,718
Speaker 1: the ability to get on base, and again he Joe.

770
00:39:07,718 --> 00:39:09,918
Speaker 1: He might not have been one of those guys where

771
00:39:09,918 --> 00:39:12,238
Speaker 1: you saw him one night and you said, that's Hall

772
00:39:12,238 --> 00:39:15,078
Speaker 1: of Famer, but if you look over the course of

773
00:39:15,118 --> 00:39:17,278
Speaker 1: his career and this is the guy who played at

774
00:39:17,358 --> 00:39:20,638
Speaker 1: two hundred and forty five pounds and he played third

775
00:39:20,638 --> 00:39:24,238
Speaker 1: base like a shortstop. Scott Roland, I'm happy for him

776
00:39:24,278 --> 00:39:28,318
Speaker 1: another like Fred McGriff, great dude who had to wait

777
00:39:28,318 --> 00:39:30,358
Speaker 1: a long time to get that call, and he is

778
00:39:30,438 --> 00:39:32,478
Speaker 1: so deserving of the Hall of Fame. He belongs.

779
00:39:33,238 --> 00:39:37,198
Speaker 2: That's a wonderful description because you just described a really,

780
00:39:37,238 --> 00:39:40,998
Speaker 2: really good baseball player. When I worked against him, he's

781
00:39:40,998 --> 00:39:43,998
Speaker 2: gonna beat you somehow. He was so intense and so

782
00:39:44,198 --> 00:39:48,238
Speaker 2: involved in every pitch and one of those guys wh

783
00:39:48,238 --> 00:39:52,238
Speaker 2: would never quit. And you're right, third base the plays

784
00:39:52,278 --> 00:39:55,558
Speaker 2: were unbelievable at bats when it really mattered heads up,

785
00:39:57,238 --> 00:39:59,878
Speaker 2: just a really good base like I said, good base runner.

786
00:40:00,238 --> 00:40:02,558
Speaker 2: I would always respected him just for the way he

787
00:40:02,718 --> 00:40:05,518
Speaker 2: played the game, for a lack of a better term,

788
00:40:05,598 --> 00:40:08,278
Speaker 2: because he played the entire game and he cared and

789
00:40:08,318 --> 00:40:11,718
Speaker 2: he was a winner. That's what I saw when I

790
00:40:11,718 --> 00:40:14,118
Speaker 2: saw him on the field. Damn. I mean, this guy

791
00:40:14,198 --> 00:40:17,078
Speaker 2: comes to play every night, and he comes to play

792
00:40:17,078 --> 00:40:19,718
Speaker 2: with a full toolbox. There is every tool in that

793
00:40:19,798 --> 00:40:22,678
Speaker 2: toolbox and they come to bear that night. Plus, like

794
00:40:22,718 --> 00:40:26,398
Speaker 2: I said, I don't know him personally, but from my perspective,

795
00:40:26,398 --> 00:40:30,678
Speaker 2: it's incredible desire to succeed. He had this thing about

796
00:40:30,758 --> 00:40:32,878
Speaker 2: him that I don't know what kind of a leader

797
00:40:32,878 --> 00:40:34,238
Speaker 2: he was in the clubhouse. I don't know what was

798
00:40:34,318 --> 00:40:37,878
Speaker 2: vocal or by people would just follow by his example.

799
00:40:38,238 --> 00:40:41,598
Speaker 2: But he had all those ingredients to me from a distance,

800
00:40:41,998 --> 00:40:44,558
Speaker 2: and I had so much respect for him, and always

801
00:40:44,798 --> 00:40:47,278
Speaker 2: you always were concerned that he did not want to

802
00:40:47,278 --> 00:40:49,518
Speaker 2: see him up there at the wrong time because he

803
00:40:49,638 --> 00:40:51,158
Speaker 2: was that in tune to every pitch.

804
00:40:51,718 --> 00:40:55,758
Speaker 1: You know. I like doing comps because sometimes you appreciate

805
00:40:55,758 --> 00:40:57,718
Speaker 1: a player more when you say he's a lot like

806
00:40:57,798 --> 00:41:00,678
Speaker 1: another player. So I wanted to give you in both

807
00:41:00,678 --> 00:41:05,638
Speaker 1: these cases of Roland and McGriff present day comps. Okay,

808
00:41:06,198 --> 00:41:08,798
Speaker 1: Scott Rowland, let's take him at the age of thirty two,

809
00:41:09,158 --> 00:41:12,198
Speaker 1: and that's the age of Nolan Arnado right now. And

810
00:41:12,238 --> 00:41:14,918
Speaker 1: a lot of people think, oh, Nolan Aronado man, he's

811
00:41:15,038 --> 00:41:17,118
Speaker 1: slammed Don Hall of Famer and he probably will be

812
00:41:17,398 --> 00:41:20,638
Speaker 1: with his consistency, the defense off the charts at third base,

813
00:41:20,838 --> 00:41:23,958
Speaker 1: consistent thirty home run, one hundred RBI guy. At the

814
00:41:23,998 --> 00:41:27,158
Speaker 1: age of thirty two, Scott Rowland was a two to

815
00:41:27,198 --> 00:41:30,398
Speaker 1: eighty three hitter with an eight to seventy nine ops.

816
00:41:30,438 --> 00:41:33,758
Speaker 1: Nolan Arenado to eighty eight hitter with an eight seventy

817
00:41:33,838 --> 00:41:38,678
Speaker 1: nine ops. Exactly the same. The war for Scott Roland

818
00:41:38,718 --> 00:41:43,318
Speaker 1: fifty five point one for Nolan Arnado fifty three point five.

819
00:41:43,678 --> 00:41:46,958
Speaker 1: Roland's actually slightly ahead. So think about that. Scott Roland

820
00:41:46,958 --> 00:41:49,718
Speaker 1: at the age of thirty two was Nolan Aronado, and

821
00:41:49,758 --> 00:41:52,918
Speaker 1: we talk about Ernato as slamm Don Hall of Famer.

822
00:41:53,358 --> 00:41:56,798
Speaker 1: I'll give you one for Freddy McGriff and it's another

823
00:41:56,838 --> 00:42:00,158
Speaker 1: first baseman named Freddy. It's Freddy Freeman, who's thirty three.

824
00:42:00,478 --> 00:42:03,198
Speaker 1: Let's take Freddy McGriff at age thirty two, and compare

825
00:42:03,278 --> 00:42:07,158
Speaker 1: him to Freddy Foeman, McGriff's ops is actually higher. The

826
00:42:07,358 --> 00:42:11,158
Speaker 1: very close nine oh two to eight ninety seven slugging

827
00:42:11,478 --> 00:42:13,998
Speaker 1: McGriff's got an edge five twenty one to five eleven

828
00:42:14,158 --> 00:42:16,998
Speaker 1: home runs. McGriff's was slightly ahead three thirty nine to

829
00:42:17,038 --> 00:42:22,118
Speaker 1: three h nine RBIs McGriff one thousand and seven, Freeman

830
00:42:22,558 --> 00:42:27,558
Speaker 1: one thousand and four. They're essentially statistical duplicates. That's how

831
00:42:27,598 --> 00:42:30,558
Speaker 1: good Freddy McGriff was. If you're watching baseball today, you're

832
00:42:30,558 --> 00:42:33,638
Speaker 1: watching Freddy Freeman, and you go, man, this guy's one

833
00:42:33,638 --> 00:42:35,478
Speaker 1: of the best first basemen in the game. He's headed

834
00:42:35,518 --> 00:42:38,478
Speaker 1: for the Hall of Fame. That was fred McGriff. And

835
00:42:38,518 --> 00:42:41,038
Speaker 1: that's why I'm stunned that the writers didn't vote him in,

836
00:42:41,158 --> 00:42:44,198
Speaker 1: and it took a committee to rectify that mistake.

837
00:42:44,998 --> 00:42:47,998
Speaker 2: Wow, that's right on the money. I'm a big Aeronauto fan,

838
00:42:48,038 --> 00:42:50,318
Speaker 2: of course, I am. Everybody is. I saw his first

839
00:42:50,358 --> 00:42:54,118
Speaker 2: game in Colorado. I did his golf tournament this past

840
00:42:54,638 --> 00:42:58,158
Speaker 2: spring before they went to camp. Really a wonderful man,

841
00:42:58,278 --> 00:43:02,998
Speaker 2: young man, and he's Yeah, but the way just described

842
00:43:03,198 --> 00:43:05,758
Speaker 2: Scotty Rowling could ease I could easily have said exactly

843
00:43:05,798 --> 00:43:08,358
Speaker 2: the same things about Aeronauto. The only difference is I

844
00:43:08,398 --> 00:43:11,838
Speaker 2: saw Aeronaudo in person more often. And yeah, with Freddie

845
00:43:11,838 --> 00:43:15,598
Speaker 2: and Freddie, that's really interesting stuff. Man, it's good. That's

846
00:43:15,638 --> 00:43:18,918
Speaker 2: good research on your part. I think it personifies and

847
00:43:19,358 --> 00:43:23,398
Speaker 2: exact terms where these both of these guys are going

848
00:43:23,398 --> 00:43:27,838
Speaker 2: in the future, Aeronaudo and Freddie Freeman. And yeah, I

849
00:43:27,878 --> 00:43:29,518
Speaker 2: think it does put a lot of things in perspective

850
00:43:29,518 --> 00:43:34,638
Speaker 2: for the naysayers of either Roland or Freddie McGriff as

851
00:43:34,678 --> 00:43:36,598
Speaker 2: they got voted into the Hall. And I did hear

852
00:43:36,678 --> 00:43:38,998
Speaker 2: some of that or you read some of that. But now,

853
00:43:39,678 --> 00:43:42,238
Speaker 2: contemporary wise, if you look at these players, which you

854
00:43:42,678 --> 00:43:47,718
Speaker 2: I would think contemporary baseball fans will easily say, and

855
00:43:47,838 --> 00:43:50,398
Speaker 2: especially these guys play a couple more years that Aeronauto's

856
00:43:50,438 --> 00:43:52,398
Speaker 2: in the Hall of Fame, Freddie Freeman's in the Hall

857
00:43:52,438 --> 00:43:55,078
Speaker 2: of Fame, and that really answers all those questions. That

858
00:43:55,158 --> 00:43:58,078
Speaker 2: puts that to rest about Freddie McGriff and Scott Roland.

859
00:43:58,438 --> 00:44:02,198
Speaker 1: Well, congratulations to both Scott Rowland and fred McGriff. It's

860
00:44:02,238 --> 00:44:05,238
Speaker 1: always a treat to see these when these guys get

861
00:44:05,318 --> 00:44:09,038
Speaker 1: up there. Scott Rowland, he's got a dry sense of humor.

862
00:44:09,078 --> 00:44:12,198
Speaker 1: I'm expecting him to drop a few funny lines and

863
00:44:12,238 --> 00:44:14,678
Speaker 1: Freddie McGriff yeah, I'm with you, Joe. I just want

864
00:44:14,718 --> 00:44:16,358
Speaker 1: to hear him laugh. I'm sure he will. He'll be

865
00:44:16,398 --> 00:44:19,838
Speaker 1: smiling the whole time. He's got that infectious laugh he is.

866
00:44:19,878 --> 00:44:22,478
Speaker 2: And if he brings Chico Fernandez, the video guy for

867
00:44:22,518 --> 00:44:24,198
Speaker 2: the race, which I would love for him to do

868
00:44:24,878 --> 00:44:29,318
Speaker 2: during the games down there at the trop Freddy at

869
00:44:29,358 --> 00:44:31,078
Speaker 2: the time when it was permitted and all that stuff.

870
00:44:31,678 --> 00:44:33,958
Speaker 2: I'd walk back to check on something, Freddye be sitting

871
00:44:33,958 --> 00:44:37,758
Speaker 2: there with Chico, and Chico makes Freddy laugh, and that's

872
00:44:37,798 --> 00:44:39,398
Speaker 2: all I needed to know, because it was a tough

873
00:44:39,398 --> 00:44:41,958
Speaker 2: part of the game. I go back there and Freddie

874
00:44:41,958 --> 00:44:44,318
Speaker 2: would be there smiling with Chico. So hopefully he's gonn

875
00:44:44,318 --> 00:44:47,078
Speaker 2: invite Chico to his induction ceremonies. That would be awesome,

876
00:44:47,398 --> 00:44:47,958
Speaker 2: very cool.

877
00:44:48,278 --> 00:44:50,318
Speaker 1: It's been a pleasure of this latest episode of the

878
00:44:50,318 --> 00:44:53,158
Speaker 1: Book of Joe and Joey. You always come through as

879
00:44:53,158 --> 00:44:55,198
Speaker 1: a closer for us taking this out. What do you

880
00:44:55,238 --> 00:44:55,798
Speaker 1: have today?

881
00:44:56,238 --> 00:45:01,678
Speaker 2: Well, it really I think personifies again exemplifies exactly what's

882
00:45:01,678 --> 00:45:05,158
Speaker 2: going on in the game. This comes from Brats Ricky, real, real, succinct,

883
00:45:05,438 --> 00:45:07,918
Speaker 2: and right to the point. A great ballplayer. There's a

884
00:45:07,958 --> 00:45:10,478
Speaker 2: player who will take a chance. And I think that's

885
00:45:10,518 --> 00:45:13,358
Speaker 2: what we're seeing. And I know in recent interviews I've

886
00:45:13,358 --> 00:45:15,398
Speaker 2: done talking about teams that are stuck in a little

887
00:45:15,398 --> 00:45:18,678
Speaker 2: bit of a malaise. Take chances, don't just be stationed

888
00:45:18,718 --> 00:45:21,118
Speaker 2: in station. Don't be afraid of making a mistake. And

889
00:45:21,158 --> 00:45:23,238
Speaker 2: if you do make If a player makes a mistake,

890
00:45:23,598 --> 00:45:26,558
Speaker 2: talk to him about it. Don't punish him, don't denigrate

891
00:45:26,638 --> 00:45:30,638
Speaker 2: him for it, go through the situation and reconstruct exactly

892
00:45:30,678 --> 00:45:33,558
Speaker 2: what happened and possibly help him make a better decision

893
00:45:33,638 --> 00:45:36,998
Speaker 2: next time. So I'm in full agreement with this. A great,

894
00:45:37,238 --> 00:45:40,078
Speaker 2: not good ball player, A great ballplayer. There's a player

895
00:45:40,118 --> 00:45:43,358
Speaker 2: who would take a chance, and fortune favors the bolt.

896
00:45:43,398 --> 00:45:45,878
Speaker 2: That's all encapsulated there, mister Rickey's quote.

897
00:45:45,998 --> 00:45:48,118
Speaker 1: I love that thought. I immediately thought of the Tampa

898
00:45:48,158 --> 00:45:50,158
Speaker 1: Bay Rays. You know, they'll get thrown out of the

899
00:45:50,158 --> 00:45:53,198
Speaker 1: basis from time to time, but there's no governors on

900
00:45:53,238 --> 00:45:55,158
Speaker 1: those guys. And I love the fact that Kevin Cash

901
00:45:55,198 --> 00:45:57,958
Speaker 1: allows them to be themselves. What's the line you'd like

902
00:45:57,998 --> 00:46:00,478
Speaker 1: to use, Joe that never get in the way of greatness.

903
00:46:00,798 --> 00:46:02,798
Speaker 1: Let's give these guys the freedom to be great.

904
00:46:02,998 --> 00:46:04,998
Speaker 2: And that's what Ricky said. A great ballplayer, not a

905
00:46:04,998 --> 00:46:07,318
Speaker 2: good ballplayer. I love it takes a chance.

906
00:46:07,558 --> 00:46:09,878
Speaker 1: Great show, Joe. We will do it again next time.

907
00:46:09,998 --> 00:46:12,038
Speaker 2: All right, brother, have a great day. Thanks man.

908
00:46:20,038 --> 00:46:23,238
Speaker 1: The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.

909
00:46:23,478 --> 00:46:28,358
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

910
00:46:28,598 --> 00:46:30,358
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.