1 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to wok F Daily with 2 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 1: Meet your Girl Danielle Moody. Pre recording from the Home Bunker. Folks, 3 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: I'm excited to introduce you to today's guests. Usually on 4 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:28,479 Speaker 1: wok F we do one on ones because I like 5 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 1: to go in depth with people and frankly, it's easier 6 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,840 Speaker 1: pre you the listener. But today we have a special 7 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:43,159 Speaker 1: two on one conversation with the hosts of the serial 8 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:50,520 Speaker 1: podcast Obscured, and I get into conversation with Emily Previty 9 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: and Stephanie Marudis from Kuvenda Media to discuss the first 10 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 1: season of Obscure, which dives into Folks, I'm going to 11 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 1: say a phrase that I've never said before, policing trauma, 12 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: those that have been abused and experienced trauma at the 13 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:24,960 Speaker 1: hands of police. You know, whenever we cover state sanctioned 14 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:31,759 Speaker 1: violence police brutality on this show, we are often trying 15 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: to humanize the person that was and then became a 16 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:43,480 Speaker 1: hashtag because of being shot, choked, killed by police officer 17 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: or white vigilante. We never then go back for those 18 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 1: that maybe didn't die, but were emotionally and physically harmed. 19 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: The effects that that kind of trauma has on larger 20 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 1: community and just the questioning of our unjust system as 21 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:20,799 Speaker 1: a whole. And so this series Obscured looks into this 22 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: issue in their first season, because these are two media 23 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 1: veterans that wanted to bring attention and spotlight issues that 24 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: legacy media leaves behind on the newsroom floor. And so 25 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:41,119 Speaker 1: they've done a ton of research and a ton of interviews, 26 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 1: and this conversation really brings to light all that we 27 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 1: don't know and all of the work that is left 28 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 1: to be done. So that conversation with the hosts and 29 00:02:54,800 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 1: founders of Kuvenda Media, Emily Previty and Stephanie Merude, is 30 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 1: coming up next, folks. I am very excited to welcome 31 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 1: to OKF Daily for the first time, the creators and 32 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: hosts behind Obscured by Couvenda Media, a series that dives 33 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: into underreported complex issues often missed in the daily news cycle. 34 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 1: Their inaugural series, From Words to Weapons, centers on the 35 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:32,640 Speaker 1: harrowing tales of law enforcement trauma survivors and the intricate 36 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: web of challenges, solutions, and hope and resilience that comes 37 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: along with that. So I am so excited Emily and 38 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 1: Stephanie to have the both of you on the show 39 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: please so that my listeners can get used to your voices. 40 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 1: Please introduce yourselves and tell us a little bit about 41 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: your your backgrounds and how you came together in Couvenda Media. 42 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 2: Danielle, thank you so much for having us today. My 43 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 2: name is Emily Previty. I'm the co creator and executive 44 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 2: executive editor. I've obscured and my background is in newspapers originally, 45 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 2: but then got back to radio. I had gotten into 46 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 2: journalism initially working for WXPN, which is a music focused 47 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:22,840 Speaker 2: radio station in Philadelphia, but worked for the morning new 48 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 2: show when I was an undergraduate, and I was working 49 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:29,359 Speaker 2: for the Press of Atlantic City covering city hall and 50 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 2: casinos when Stephanie and I cross paths initially, but then 51 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 2: you know, several years later, each working for NPR affiliates 52 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 2: based in Pennsylvania, collaborated with some other journalists on a 53 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 2: long form podcast series called Grapple, and we really hit 54 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:52,720 Speaker 2: it off. Felt like our you know, approaches and interests 55 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 2: were aligned as far as reporting. Stayed in touch. It's 56 00:04:56,400 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 2: some side projects together, and I joined Stephanie full time 57 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 2: at Kuvenda in twenty twenty one to launch Obscured. Awesome. 58 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks Danielle for having us on the show. We're 59 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 3: excited to be here. I'm Stephanie Marutis and I fell 60 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 3: into journalism accidentally, i'd say after college. I had a 61 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 3: day job and I started volunteering with a Greek community 62 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 3: radio station in New York City. I had a show, 63 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 3: a community affair show, and was the reporter, producer and 64 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:35,479 Speaker 3: host for a Greek diaspora show. And I really loved it. 65 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: I loved it more than my day job. 66 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 3: And I decided to make the switch to become a 67 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:43,840 Speaker 3: public radio reporter and I was fortunate to be able 68 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 3: to do so. And I first started working at WYPR 69 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 3: in Baltimore, the NPR affiliate. I grew up in Baltimore, 70 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 3: and so it was great to be able to report 71 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:56,720 Speaker 3: on my hometown. And then I made the switch to 72 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 3: whroy Y in Philadelphia, where we're based, and spent my 73 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 3: time as a general assignment reporter, you know, covering education, healthcare, immigration, 74 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 3: and just continued to, you know, try to hone the 75 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,159 Speaker 3: craft as much as possible and got really into oral 76 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 3: history on the side and reading about personal accounts and 77 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:21,279 Speaker 3: thinking a lot about how public policy impacts our lives 78 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 3: flash Forward, went from being a reporter to a producer, 79 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:30,720 Speaker 3: started working on audio documentaries and eventually did another deep 80 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 3: dive study into oral history and that really catapulted to 81 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 3: that really catapulted me to start Covenda Media as a 82 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 3: production company to produce narratives through social change. And as 83 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 3: Emily mentioned, we came together on Grapple and uh that was, 84 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 3: you know, just an extraordinary experience with a wonderful team, 85 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 3: and then insight into the collaboration with Emily and thinking 86 00:06:57,520 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 3: about how could we do this again? And this is 87 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:00,479 Speaker 3: where we are today day. 88 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 1: Amazing. I love the background and love the story of 89 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: how the two of you came together. I think that, 90 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: you know, storytelling, particularly around justice issues are incredibly important. 91 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: And what I find is that we get very much 92 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: bogged down by statistics and stories are what turn statistics 93 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 1: into people and humans with lives and and how those 94 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 1: policy decisions affect people's day to day lives. I think 95 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: is where we are needing right. We need more of 96 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: that in order to understand why policy matters, like why 97 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: it matters to your day to day life. So let 98 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 1: me let me ask you this, and and Emily if 99 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: you if you'll kick us off with the response, which is, 100 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: you know, tell us about Obscured and that first season, 101 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 1: because let me tell you that, when I think about 102 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: all of the names that kind of rattle through my 103 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 1: head of unarmed black people, children, women who were killed 104 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 1: by police, when I think about those people that would 105 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: become hashtags that then came from communities, families, you know, schools, 106 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:32,200 Speaker 1: and the loss that kind of is a ripple effect. 107 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 1: We don't really ever dig into that kind of trauma 108 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: and the fact that you even named it as you know, 109 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:43,680 Speaker 1: people who were victimized by police police trauma. Just talk 110 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 1: to us about that first season and really your why 111 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: behind it. 112 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 2: So the idea for the first season, well, it had 113 00:08:56,280 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 2: been years since I had reported on criminal justice, account 114 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 2: ability and excessive force, but I had done that before 115 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 2: and switched medium, switched jobs and beats since then, but 116 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:13,439 Speaker 2: had really continued to follow the issue and care very 117 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 2: deeply about it over the years. Wanted to get back 118 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 2: to that should the opportunity present, and so that was 119 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:21,959 Speaker 2: in my mind, but we hadn't decided what we were 120 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 2: going to do, how we were going to focus the 121 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 2: first season of Obscured. I was researching an episode for 122 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 2: At the Core of Care, which is a podcast that 123 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 2: predates my time at Kuvenda with Stephanie, but that she 124 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 2: has produced with a nursing advocacy organization for years, and 125 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 2: was researching an episode for that about standardizing sexual assault 126 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 2: exam procedures. And you know, I came across nurse who 127 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 2: was on the schedule for a conference for forensic nurses 128 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:05,439 Speaker 2: specific and the title of her presentation was developing a protocol. 129 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 2: I don't remember the exact title off the top of 130 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 2: my head, but it was about developing the protocol for 131 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 2: caring for people who were survivors of law enforcement trauma, 132 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 2: developing a forensic model for doing so. And I asked 133 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:21,960 Speaker 2: her about that sort of as a warm up, but 134 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 2: then that's where the conversation went, and it was clear 135 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 2: to me immediately that her story and her work could 136 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 2: be part of, if not the focus, of the first season. 137 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 2: And her name is Maya Anderson. She runs the undergraduate 138 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:42,319 Speaker 2: and graduate nursing programs at Morgan State University in Baltimore. 139 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 1: And Stephanie, for you, you know. 140 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 2: What. 141 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 1: Brought you to this being the focus of the first 142 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: season and why was it important to tell this kind 143 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: of again. You know, we see a lot you know, 144 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:06,560 Speaker 1: I noticed, I don't know if you guys notice, but 145 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 1: every time there is some type of nationalized uh incident 146 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 1: involving police, then all of a sudden, my social media 147 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: seems to be flooded with all of these heartwarming videos 148 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:20,559 Speaker 1: of police showing up in neighborhoods and you know, and 149 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 1: playing jump rope and doing all of these things. So 150 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:26,960 Speaker 1: why was it important for you to show that the 151 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 1: trauma side. 152 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,960 Speaker 3: Yes, thanks for that question. And I think as we 153 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 3: think about why we're doing obscured in the first place, uh, 154 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 3: that could help set the stage to help me answer 155 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 3: the question. Emily and I, you know, spent time uh 156 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 3: working in legacy media organizations and uh, you know, working 157 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 3: in the daily news cycle, and you know, we've just 158 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:52,320 Speaker 3: noticed so many redundancies. You know, you really see the 159 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:55,679 Speaker 3: same story kind of over and over again, and uh, 160 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 3: you know, your listeners and you and us, you know, 161 00:11:57,960 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 3: we're just consumed in content. 162 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 2: We have a lot of content. 163 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 3: Coming at us all the time on various platforms, and 164 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 3: I think as journalist, Emily and I, you know, feel 165 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:10,439 Speaker 3: committed to being able to report on angles of stories 166 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 3: that do not often you know, get told in the 167 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 3: in the coverage that you see in the media, and 168 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 3: you know, we start to think about, you know, how 169 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 3: could we help contribute to moving a conversation forward on 170 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 3: an issue. And I think, as Emily mentioned when she 171 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 3: spoke with Maya Anderson, you know, that struck us as, Wow, 172 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 3: that's an angle of this topic we've never heard about. 173 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 3: You know, that forensic nurse who has seen people present 174 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:42,079 Speaker 3: in the emergency department who need care and they need 175 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 3: to have a protocol, uh, you know, and that it's 176 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 3: it's controversial, and there's a lot of pushback, you know, 177 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 3: around this, and you know, as she lays out in 178 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 3: episode seven of our series, and and some of the 179 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 3: other nurses who are interviewed, you know, it's this dynamic 180 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 3: of calling the police on the police, and that's really 181 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 3: hard to do. And so we thought that this is 182 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 3: a story that needs to be told. And to Emily's credit, 183 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 3: you know, she spent the last few years digging deep, 184 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 3: doing a ton of research, developing sources, you know, really 185 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:21,680 Speaker 3: trying to tell this story that's not told and so 186 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 3: that fit with our mission of Obscured, and you know, 187 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 3: it's it's difficult to report, and you know, Emily, you know, 188 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 3: and I would identify some potential sources and you know, 189 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 3: try to connect with you know, sources and they might 190 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:40,959 Speaker 3: be ready to talk, but then in some cases they weren't. 191 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 3: And we totally get that, and it's a thank you 192 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 3: for considering the time. You know, we we we understand. 193 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 3: So it took time to develop trust and and sources. 194 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 3: And I think in Emily's reporting you can see that 195 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 3: we took a trauma informed approach. In our narrative episodes. 196 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 1: The series begins with the story of Jimmy Warren, and 197 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 1: so I'd love for you to be able to explain 198 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:14,319 Speaker 1: to the listeners about that case and why you decided 199 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 1: to start the series with him. 200 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 2: Sure, so Jimmy Warren's case. If you follow these issues closely, 201 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 2: you might remember back in twenty sixteen, there was a 202 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 2: major decision in the fall of that year from the 203 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 2: Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court that got a lot of attention 204 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 2: because it basically stated that, you know, police need to 205 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 2: consider the long term generational trauma that people of color 206 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 2: have over police abuse, oppression, over law enforcement trauma, and 207 00:14:56,560 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 2: that just because someone runs from the police not mean 208 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 2: that they're guilty, and that is something when the police 209 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 2: are making a calculus of whether to pursue someone, whether 210 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 2: to arrest someone, whether that's going to be considered justifiable 211 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 2: or appropriate in the court of law, running is not 212 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 2: a good enough reason, essentially, And basically, you know, I 213 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 2: had been talking to a capital defense attorney and she 214 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 2: sort of reminded me that about that case. I noticed 215 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 2: that no one had interviewed Jimmy, and end of the 216 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 2: articles that I could find, his attorney that handled this 217 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 2: case at the appellate level had never met him. And 218 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 2: both of those things struck me as highly unusual. None 219 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 2: of the stories that I found said even something like, 220 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 2: you know, we tried to reach Jimmy and we couldn't 221 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 2: or anything like that. And so, you know, it seemed 222 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 2: to me that if we could find this person whose 223 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 2: case was, you know, it made a major statement. Basically, 224 00:15:58,120 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 2: of course, it's the state court, so it's not the 225 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 2: law of the land, but it certainly did have an impact, 226 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 2: as we discovered through further reporting. But you know, I mean, 227 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 2: we did talk to Jimmy and he immediately agreed to 228 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 2: you know, sit down with me. I went to Boston. 229 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 2: We had a pretty lengthy interview and he's a fantastic storyteller, 230 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 2: and you know, was just a great interview, and we 231 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 2: felt like one the attention on the case could serve 232 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 2: as a good entry point for listeners who follow this issue. 233 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 2: They may remember it because it did make national headlines, 234 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 2: but then also the nature of the case, it's not 235 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 2: rooted in any kind of physical injury. But and as 236 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 2: he speaks to in episode one of the From Words 237 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 2: Weapons series, just this long term like over policing and 238 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 2: the effects of that. And we hoped that that would 239 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 2: establish the ubiquity of law enforcement trauma and the true 240 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 2: high relevance of this issue, you know, again looking at 241 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 2: it in a way that we don't often see in 242 00:16:57,280 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 2: the news. 243 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: What you know, and this is a question for the 244 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:05,399 Speaker 1: both of you, and I'd love to hear both of 245 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:08,720 Speaker 1: your thoughts on this. What was the most surprising thing 246 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 1: that you discovered, you know, through your research and through 247 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 1: putting together this series, Because it seems like the research 248 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: that you've done, the people that you've talked to h 249 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:27,360 Speaker 1: is so extensive. What surprised you the most? And anyone 250 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 1: can can jump in and go first. 251 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 2: Hmmm, what is the most surprising thing. So I guess 252 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 2: I should caveat this by working as a journalist basically 253 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 2: for my entire career, we can be I mean, I 254 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 2: could be. Almost nothing is surprising, even though it may 255 00:17:54,640 --> 00:18:06,200 Speaker 2: be kind of outrageous or infuriating. I'm thinking about I'm 256 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:10,159 Speaker 2: thinking about episode three, and that is about Chesterholman, the 257 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 2: third who was exonerated after serving nearly three decades in 258 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:18,439 Speaker 2: prison for a murder he did not commit. And just 259 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:22,880 Speaker 2: the fact that there isn't support for people who've been 260 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 2: wrongfully convicted in the way that there should be, given 261 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:33,920 Speaker 2: the fact that the state, the government has already essentially 262 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 2: admitted their error and the harm that it caused by 263 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:41,919 Speaker 2: virtue of this person. It's wrongful conviction. So you know, 264 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:44,919 Speaker 2: there's not a lot of support. It's all over the 265 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:48,479 Speaker 2: map as far as state by state, Pennsylvania is one 266 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:51,200 Speaker 2: of about of a dozen that if you don't go 267 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 2: the route of litigation, you aren't compensated for this harm 268 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 2: that you suffer. Which why should someone have to go 269 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 2: through that again or file a lawsuit? I mean, it 270 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 2: should be a choice, right, And so recognizing that most 271 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 2: states have an alternate path that's more of an application 272 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:16,400 Speaker 2: process and it's all over the map. As I said, 273 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 2: it's very different. There are states. Systems for this are 274 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 2: not all created equal. But you know, I would say 275 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 2: that I don't know if i'd use the word surprising, 276 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:31,440 Speaker 2: but I thought I was certainly outraged to discover that. 277 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, that is horrendous to have to then go through 278 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 1: the legal system that unjustly convicted you to try and 279 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 1: correct a harm that was caused to you is pretty wild. 280 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 2: Sure. And in Chuster's case and the cases of many 281 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 2: others who have been through this, it's there's a true 282 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:57,680 Speaker 2: cost associated with it. I mean, if you serve time 283 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:01,360 Speaker 2: in prison, it's just you know, there's mental health support 284 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:04,199 Speaker 2: that you're going to need. You have to restart your 285 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 2: entire life, maybe you want to go back to school, 286 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 2: you want to get job training. I mean, the list 287 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 2: just goes on and on, right and your family, if 288 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:16,880 Speaker 2: you know your family was supporting you through this, and 289 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 2: you know they may be in debt from trying to 290 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:24,119 Speaker 2: pay for attorneys to try to overturn your case, I mean, yeah, 291 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:31,119 Speaker 2: it was just kind of shocking, Yeah, to see the 292 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:34,360 Speaker 2: effort that people have to go through to be compensated 293 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:38,160 Speaker 2: for all of that, and Stephanie. 294 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:41,679 Speaker 1: For you what was the most surprising. 295 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:46,159 Speaker 3: I would add to Emily's you know, episode three and 296 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 3: this topic, and you know, just to shout out Emily 297 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:53,120 Speaker 3: as well. You know, she really laid out the politics 298 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 3: in Pennsylvania behind you know, compensation for wrongfully convicted and 299 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:01,919 Speaker 3: you know we don't have a statute for that, and 300 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 3: just sort of how contentious that is in the state. 301 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 3: And so that was also illuminating, besides the whole story, 302 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 3: you know, of what happened to Chester Home in the 303 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 3: third I would also say in an episode that we 304 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 3: released on December twentieth, it is a conversation with a 305 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:26,159 Speaker 3: physician who has worked in public health and it's about 306 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 3: post incarceration. Excuse me, it's about post incarceration healthcare and 307 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:35,200 Speaker 3: navigating mistrust within the medical system. And uh. Doctor Deva 308 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 3: Vencatt is the co founder and co director of an 309 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 3: organization in Pittsburgh for people after they've been incarcerated, and 310 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 3: you know, she's very candid about what happens, you know, 311 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 3: in terms of healthcare for people while they're incarcerated and afterwards, 312 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 3: and how they're treated and how they can't get the 313 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 3: same access to care and are viewed differently, really without humanity, 314 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 3: and that that really just opened my eyes again just 315 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 3: sort of stories that you don't hear and you know 316 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:12,199 Speaker 3: she has, you know, that first hand experience, and you know, 317 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:15,479 Speaker 3: is part of a group of healthcare professionals who are 318 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:17,360 Speaker 3: trying to change that. And they're they're taking a harm 319 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:21,920 Speaker 3: reduction approach to care, you know, right after uh people 320 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 3: are released, you know, they're they're meeting them right away, 321 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 3: you know, trying to say, can we connect you with healthcare? 322 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 3: Because she told us and as we've learned from a 323 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,160 Speaker 3: nurse navigator who's you know, part of her staff as well, 324 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:38,200 Speaker 3: that formerly incarcerated individuals are at higher risk of dying 325 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 3: right after release than those first wow. 326 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:41,159 Speaker 1: Wow. 327 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know it comes everything from substance abuse potential 328 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 3: to you know, just having health care and uh So 329 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:53,359 Speaker 3: that that really was like whoa so? And I feel 330 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 3: I could go on about other surprises, but thank you 331 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:56,920 Speaker 3: for the question. 332 00:22:57,720 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. 333 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 1: Absolutely. As I close out with with the both of you, 334 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 1: I just I want to say thank you so much 335 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 1: for the work that you've done to bring you know, 336 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:18,959 Speaker 1: these stories to light and just your perspective and how 337 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:24,680 Speaker 1: you were looking at us using media and narrative to 338 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 1: to have an impact into how policy can change our 339 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 1: lives for the better or for the worse. So please 340 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:37,120 Speaker 1: Emily tell folks how they can connect with the series, 341 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:40,920 Speaker 1: how they can listen, you know, and and learn more. 342 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 2: So you can find Obscured on any major streaming platform. 343 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 2: You could go to podlink and put an obscured and 344 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 2: you'll find it there. We are on social media at 345 00:23:56,040 --> 00:24:01,160 Speaker 2: Kuvenda Media. I'm on social at emily Underscore Previty and 346 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 2: the website is Couvendimedia dot com k O u v 347 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:13,879 Speaker 2: e n d Amedia dot com. Amazing. 348 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,399 Speaker 1: Thank you both so much for making the time for 349 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 1: wok F. I really appreciate you. 350 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for the conversation Danielle. 351 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 3: Thank you Danielle. We really enjoyed being on the show. 352 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 1: That is it for me today, dear friends on woke 353 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 1: F as always, power to the people and to all 354 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,400 Speaker 1: the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.