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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class, A production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Homely Fry, and

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Speaker 1: I'm Tracy B. Wilson. We talked about Ruby Payne Scott

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Speaker 1: this week. Uh huh, a woman who I sort of love. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I will talk about one quote that I did not

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Speaker 1: include because it used phrasing that I think we both hate, sure,

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Speaker 1: but I want to mention it here because it's a

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Speaker 1: good example of how even people who are your allies

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Speaker 1: can say things that they maybe don't mean to be

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Speaker 1: so awful but are Oh no, which is that. In

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Speaker 1: Joan Freeman's biography, she describes Ruby as shrill. Oh I

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Speaker 1: hate it, I hate it, you would, But she also

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Speaker 1: says like, but she used that voice to like advocate

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Speaker 1: for change, and it's like, I see what you're doing,

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Speaker 1: but I know I wish, Yeah, she would have chosen

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Speaker 1: any other word again too, that was written many years ago.

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Speaker 1: I was just gonna ask when it was written, because

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Speaker 1: I for sure have read things for work that were

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Speaker 1: written a decade or more ago that I feel like

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Speaker 1: if the person were writing it today, they would not

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Speaker 1: have used that language. Yeah, I think she probably wouldn't have,

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Speaker 1: like I read I don't remember which. I think maybe

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Speaker 1: it was some of the GK. Chesterton research. There were

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Speaker 1: people that had a focus on his weight that I

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Speaker 1: think might No, I won't say it might have been

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Speaker 1: handled kind of sensitively for the because it wasn't it really,

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Speaker 1: But like, I really feel like some of the folks

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Speaker 1: who wrote those things, were they writing them now, would

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Speaker 1: not they choose different languages? Yeah, I really we didn't

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Speaker 1: talk a ton about it, but I really really love

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Speaker 1: pretty much discussion of Ruby and her family, and particularly

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Speaker 1: Ruby and Bill seemed smitten with each other. And there

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Speaker 1: are some very fun pictures that I found in one

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Speaker 1: of the biographies I read, which is called Under the Radar,

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Speaker 1: and they're pictures of them, like with their bushwalking club

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Speaker 1: and things that were taken by their bushwalking club. And

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Speaker 1: there's one particular photograph taken in nineteen forty seven, so

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Speaker 1: they would have been married a few years at that point,

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Speaker 1: and they're out in the middle of nowhere and Ruby

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Speaker 1: is washing Bill's hair and it's the sweetest, most charming

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Speaker 1: thing to me. It's so like cute, And you know,

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Speaker 1: anytime you see people who are married taking care of

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Speaker 1: one another in that way. I find it very charming

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Speaker 1: and it's so sweet, and they do always seem like

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Speaker 1: they're just sort of completely gago over each other, which

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Speaker 1: I love. Yeah. Yeah, we didn't talk about their kids much.

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Speaker 1: Their kids are still alive, but I will say they

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Speaker 1: produced a mathematician who's incredibly well respected in their son, Peter.

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Speaker 1: And there if you have, if any part of you,

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Speaker 1: if you are an art person, heard the name Fiona

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Speaker 1: and when is that Fiona Hall, the fairly well known sculptor,

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Speaker 1: it is that's their daughter. She has done a lot

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Speaker 1: of amazing art over the years and continues to so.

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Speaker 1: Like I said, I didn't want to focus on them

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Speaker 1: too much, but yes, pretty amazing kids from what seemed

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Speaker 1: to be two pretty amazing parents. When you think about

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Speaker 1: the fact that Bill was a feminist in the nineteen forties,

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Speaker 1: that seems pretty amazing. Yeah. They were apparently Ruby also

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Speaker 1: loved kiddies, which just endears me to her even more.

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Speaker 1: They always had cats at home. I found myself reading

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Speaker 1: about her and being floored at every turn. Yeah, because

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Speaker 1: she was so very outspoken about issues in ways that

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Speaker 1: we don't really think about happening until like the seventies.

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Speaker 1: In terms of her being like, no, we need equal

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Speaker 1: rights and that's gonna happen, and I'm not giving up,

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Speaker 1: and I'm advising all of my colleagues to not give

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Speaker 1: up until we get them. And it's like we did

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Speaker 1: nineteen forty nine. You were doing this right. I also

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Speaker 1: mentioned that we would talk a little bit about the

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Speaker 1: Communist Party thing. Yeah, so here is why there's not

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Speaker 1: much about it. She was suspected to be a member

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Speaker 1: of the Communist Party for a long time. Well she

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Speaker 1: must have been, because they gave her that nickname, right,

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Speaker 1: she was, but there wasn't conclusive evidence and like the

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Speaker 1: Australian Security Intelligence Organization had a dossier on her. They

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Speaker 1: thought she was a communist, but there wasn't any direct

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Speaker 1: evidence that they had initially, and it wasn't until later

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Speaker 1: when a person who had also been a member of

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Speaker 1: the Australian Communist Party, which I don't remember the exact

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Speaker 1: name of it, but was like, oh, yeah, she was

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Speaker 1: a member for a little while, and it seems like

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Speaker 1: it was one of those things for her that was

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Speaker 1: very much in line with her very very leftist politics.

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Speaker 1: And then as things kind of shifted in the world

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties, she stopped participating and was no

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Speaker 1: longer a member. But we don't have much more info

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Speaker 1: than what I just said, But we really don't. She

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Speaker 1: didn't seem to record anything about her thoughts on it

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Speaker 1: or her interest in it. She doesn't seem to have

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Speaker 1: been super active because it would have been more obvious,

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Speaker 1: I think, to more people, and the Asia would have

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Speaker 1: had more concrete information than they did. So it's a

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Speaker 1: little bit It's one of those strange things that comes

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Speaker 1: up a lot where it's like she was a Communist

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Speaker 1: and it's like, yeah, yes, but was she like was

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Speaker 1: she practicing This sounds like when you were talking about someone

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Speaker 1: lapsing as a religious follower, but she seems to not

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Speaker 1: have been doubled down into it by any means, right. Well, So,

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Speaker 1: one of the things that we've talked about related to

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Speaker 1: like the United States labor movement UH and like the

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Speaker 1: civil rights movement in the United States, is that like

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Speaker 1: a lot of these movements had a lot of ideas

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Speaker 1: in common with the Communist Party about like equality and workers'

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Speaker 1: rights and all of that. And my understanding of communism

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Speaker 1: in Australia specifically, especially in like around the nineteen forties,

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Speaker 1: ish was like really strong connections to the labor movement

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Speaker 1: and to organized labor and to like anti fascisms as

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Speaker 1: fascism started to grow in parts of the world. And

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Speaker 1: so I think it's a lot of people immediately start

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Speaker 1: to think about like the Soviet Union and Soviet politics

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Speaker 1: and things like that, and it's like there were some

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Speaker 1: other nuances vrolled and so if somebody's outlook was like

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Speaker 1: very very pro trade union and pro equal rights and

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Speaker 1: pro economic equality, it's it's not all of that all

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Speaker 1: that surprising, No, it completely trapped been. Yeah. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: did see in a brief mention in the New York

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Speaker 1: Times where they did that thing that they do obituaries

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Speaker 1: for people that never got oh yeah, obituaries. There was

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Speaker 1: a reference to an interview that I never found mentioned

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Speaker 1: anywhere else where. Her daughter said that even after she

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Speaker 1: had retired from her last job, she lived a pretty

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Speaker 1: quiet life, but she did go out and protest the

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Speaker 1: Vietnam War, which also tracks. But I didn't find any

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Speaker 1: other information about it. So that's another thing that I

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Speaker 1: didn't really feel like merited inclusion, because we couldn't substantiate

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Speaker 1: it in any kind of way, what an interesting woman. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: who you know, did a lot for science, did a

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Speaker 1: lot for women's rights without realizing it. I mean, I'm

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Speaker 1: sure she realized it, but like sure, I don't think

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Speaker 1: the women's rights movement really recognized her as an important

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Speaker 1: figure until much later. I still just love that she's like,

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Speaker 1: I'm on a ladder, you ding dong? Do you really

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Speaker 1: want to yeah? On skirts up there? Like she seems

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Speaker 1: like just so completely direct in all of this. I

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Speaker 1: love that she was like, no, I don't really think

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Speaker 1: I need to give you the date of my wedding.

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Speaker 1: I don't think you need that information, right. I just

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Speaker 1: love how it's just a little firecracker and also very smart,

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Speaker 1: and even people that thought they didn't like her were like, man,

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Speaker 1: she's a really good scientist. Yeah. There are a couple

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Speaker 1: of notes of people in some of her biographies, particularly

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Speaker 1: that longer one I mentioned earlier, where it is like, well,

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Speaker 1: we track down this colleague who said he really didn't

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Speaker 1: like her, but he really really respected her. It's like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: all right, then, yeah, I guess that's all you need.

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Speaker 1: Ruby Payne Scott. I also kind of accidentally timed this

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Speaker 1: so that it would come out right. I think it's

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Speaker 1: gonna end up being right before her birth date, and

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Speaker 1: the date of her death is also right right up

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Speaker 1: against her birth date by a little bit. So end

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Speaker 1: of May should just be Ruby Payint Scott Bestival in

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Speaker 1: my heart. Yeah, there you go. This week on the show,

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Speaker 1: we talked about has Chorist Nanaga and UH delegation from

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Speaker 1: Japan to North America and you Europe at a time

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Speaker 1: when sometimes it may seem to folks that the world

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Speaker 1: was not as interconnected as it really was. That is

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Speaker 1: something that we UH talked about a lot in an

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Speaker 1: interview that we did that with Dennis Carr. We mentioned

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Speaker 1: that interview at the beginning of this episode. It was

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Speaker 1: in conjunction with an exhibition at the Museum of Fine Arts,

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Speaker 1: Boston that was all about this Manila Galleon trade and

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Speaker 1: how the Manili, the Manila Galleon trade like influenced life

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Speaker 1: in the colonies, life in Europe, art, all of that

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Speaker 1: kind of stuff, and so like, we had already talked

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Speaker 1: some about the world being like globally connected at that

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Speaker 1: point in history when folks might not imagine that that

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Speaker 1: was the case. But I thought it was really interesting

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Speaker 1: to look at how Japan was more internationally connected than

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Speaker 1: folks might imagine if what they think of in term

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Speaker 1: of Japan becoming globally connected starts with Matthew Perry in

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Speaker 1: the nineteenth century. Yeah, I mean, I think that's it

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Speaker 1: exactly right. That is such a long period of their

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Speaker 1: isolationism that it and it's kind of been told that

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Speaker 1: way at various points. Yeah, as well. It's like Japan

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Speaker 1: was cut off from everyone until Matthew Perry writer, It's

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Speaker 1: like no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no no. This

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Speaker 1: the things that we talked about in this episode also

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Speaker 1: makes it clear that this was not like a light

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Speaker 1: switch that was thrown and suddenly Japan's borders were shut down.

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Speaker 1: That it was sort of a process that took place

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Speaker 1: over a period of time, and that the century or

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Speaker 1: more leading up to the borders being totally closed, like

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Speaker 1: had a lot of conflict going on, Like Japan's concerns

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Speaker 1: about whether Spain would basically conquer Japan based on what

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Speaker 1: we know of Spain in this seventeenth century, like those

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Speaker 1: were valid, Like they could see what had you know,

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Speaker 1: they could see that Spain had basically taken over the Philippines,

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Speaker 1: They had you know, heard from people in New Spain,

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Speaker 1: like what was happening to you know, the indigenous people

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Speaker 1: that were they were not living in like total a

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Speaker 1: total vacuum, So like concerns about what a deeper relationship

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Speaker 1: with Spain would mean, Like those were really valid concerns,

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Speaker 1: but also terrifying and violent time to be a Christian

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Speaker 1: living in Japan. And there were people who continued to

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Speaker 1: be Christian in practice Christianity in Japan after that that

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Speaker 1: had to do it in like total secrecy. One thing

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Speaker 1: that I said to Holly while working on this is

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Speaker 1: that I resolved that when this episode was done, the

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Speaker 1: next thing I was going to work on would be

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Speaker 1: something that just did not have an outline, that was

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Speaker 1: full of may have and possibly and this is a

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Speaker 1: little bit unclear, because these three episodes, not totally right

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Speaker 1: in a row, but very close together, have all been

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Speaker 1: very challenging just due to a lack of clear information

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Speaker 1: and resources about Mary Dyer and Nichelina watier Uh and

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Speaker 1: Husk Grosun and Naga. Yeah, I don't know. I sometimes

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Speaker 1: love those mystery ones because you can go here are

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Speaker 1: the three options, and you can kind of to reference

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Speaker 1: another recent one Okham's razor it a little bit and

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Speaker 1: be like, well, yeah, sure, really one of these seems

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Speaker 1: the most likely and involves the least supposition. Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: do want to point out too that I think, probably

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Speaker 1: in addition to thinking Japan was closed off forever until

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Speaker 1: the Perry expedition, I also suspect that many people, and

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Speaker 1: for me, I didn't realize this until I was well

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Speaker 1: into adulthood, that Christianity was already in Japan, well before

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Speaker 1: I would have guessed. Yeah, right, Like, the idea of

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Speaker 1: Christians being persecuted in Japan before the nineteenth century is

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Speaker 1: not something I think most people realize, at least certainly

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Speaker 1: not in my age group, because there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: a lot of very slanted accounts that suggest that, you know,

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Speaker 1: when European and American colonists started traveling beyond North America

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Speaker 1: into your other place, right, they brought Christianity with them.

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Speaker 1: And it's like, no, the beaten to the punch on

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Speaker 1: that one, guys. Yeah, I had on my short list

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Speaker 1: for a really, really long time. The Mass Crucifixion that

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Speaker 1: we talked about briefly in this episode, where the sam

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Speaker 1: Fella Bay incident had happened, and a group of Christians

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Speaker 1: was like rounded up and tortured and crucified like that

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Speaker 1: was horrifying. And I was having sort of the same

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Speaker 1: mental process when I heard about this happening, which was

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Speaker 1: that I did not even know that there were any

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Speaker 1: Christians in Japan at the time that that happened, Like

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Speaker 1: that I had really only heard about any of that

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Speaker 1: relating to like the nineteenth century and beyond, and finding

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Speaker 1: enough specific information about it and to make it a

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Speaker 1: whole episode was really challenging. And it was one of

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Speaker 1: those things where there was one specific book and one

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Speaker 1: specific library and I was like, maybe if I get

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Speaker 1: that book, I can do it. And I went and

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Speaker 1: got that book, which turned out to be a source

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Speaker 1: that was used on this episode, and I very quickly

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Speaker 1: was like, even with this book, don't I don't have

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Speaker 1: what I need. So it had just been sort of

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Speaker 1: lingering and I'm glad doesn't feel like the right word

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Speaker 1: because it is such a horrifying incident's talk about, but

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Speaker 1: like winding up finding a different topic that was related

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Speaker 1: to it where there could at least be mentioned of it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I appreciated. On a lighter note, Yeah, the way we

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Speaker 1: talked about and and you found in your research that

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of different takes on how the

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Speaker 1: delegation the embassy as it were, was portrayed. Made me

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Speaker 1: think about networks doing upfronts. Yeah, no, these guys are

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Speaker 1: gonna probably maybe be great leaders in Japan. It's kind

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Speaker 1: of like the way you announce stuff that you're hoping

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Speaker 1: you can get being done. You can get some ad

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Speaker 1: funding for Yeah. If you're not familiar with the term upfronts,

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Speaker 1: this is an event where like networks or podcast companies

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Speaker 1: or et cetera are doing presentations with the hope of

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Speaker 1: getting advertising commitments. Right, Like you'll see them referenced in

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Speaker 1: like any kind of entertainment press all the time, where

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Speaker 1: it's like, you know, NBC's upfronts, Disney's upfronts, blah blah blah.

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Speaker 1: We are they announced their projected roster for the next year, right,

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Speaker 1: and we do them for podcasting as well, like every

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Speaker 1: every big media thing that runs on advertising pretty much

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Speaker 1: does it. But it is often like you are. It's

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Speaker 1: it's not the intention isn't even to be shady, but

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Speaker 1: like sometimes you announce things that are in development that

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Speaker 1: may or may not come to fruition. This gets me

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Speaker 1: on a soapbox about various fandoms and how they're like,

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Speaker 1: but you said this is happening. It's like, well, it's planned.

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Speaker 1: Doesn't always mean that plans get through to the end,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, it's it's a thing where it's like, here's

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Speaker 1: what's gonna happen, here's what we're looking forward to in

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Speaker 1: our next year. And they don't always they don't always happen,

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Speaker 1: but in this case, it feels like maybe it was

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Speaker 1: a little more intentionally cloudy in the representation what was

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Speaker 1: going on. Yeah, based on the way that people writing

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Speaker 1: in English wrote about this, I really thought that there

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Speaker 1: was just like nothing to go on. And it was

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Speaker 1: fairly late in my research when I found a paper

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Speaker 1: written in English by a scholar writing in English who

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Speaker 1: had clearly been in Japan and done a lot of

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Speaker 1: research in Japan, and had this long list of Japanese

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Speaker 1: language sources, and I was like, WHOA, I did not

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Speaker 1: know any of these even existed, And so I start

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Speaker 1: putting them all into WorldCat and it's like most of

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Speaker 1: them just aren't aren't in libraries here, and like two

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Speaker 1: or three of them there's like, oh, I I could

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Speaker 1: Inner library loan this book in Japanese from Yale Great,

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Speaker 1: and then and then try to find a Japanese speaker

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Speaker 1: more proficient than my spouse, because while I can get

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Speaker 1: some help with Japanese things from my spouse, like I think, yes,

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Speaker 1: be a lot. And I was like, I'm just I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna have to go with the information that is available

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Speaker 1: on this in English, which is one of the challenges

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Speaker 1: of doing this show. Like we get a lot of

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Speaker 1: requests from folks who are like, I wish you would

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Speaker 1: talk about the history of place more like fill in

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Speaker 1: the blank, And a lot of times it's like, we

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Speaker 1: also wish we could do more on the history of

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Speaker 1: that place, but like a lot of the information about

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Speaker 1: that place is contained within that place, in the languages

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Speaker 1: spoken in that place, and is not accessible to us

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Speaker 1: living in the United State dates even if we did

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Speaker 1: have translators on staff in some cases, like the book

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Speaker 1: itself is not here. Yeah. By the way, I worry

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Speaker 1: that when you say on staff, people will think we

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Speaker 1: have a staff. No, we don't have a staff. And

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Speaker 1: I got asked once how many, like recently by someone

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Speaker 1: else who works in podcasting, how many people were on

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Speaker 1: our staff, and I probably came off as rude, but

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Speaker 1: I just started laughing maniacally. Yeah, it was like me

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Speaker 1: and Tracy. Yeah, sometimes when I am you know, in

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Speaker 1: uh cab or whatever, Like I'm somewhere where I'm having

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Speaker 1: a conversation with a random person and they ask what

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Speaker 1: do you do? And then they ask for more detail,

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Speaker 1: and I'm like, well, Holly and I research and write

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Speaker 1: every episode and we record it. Our producer Casey does

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Speaker 1: the audio editing on it. Sometimes we have one of

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Speaker 1: the other producers will do the audio edit if Casey's

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Speaker 1: not available for some reason. But like the really the

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Speaker 1: the research and the writing and all of that is

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Speaker 1: Holly and me, And there sometimes will be a paw

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Speaker 1: and then that sounds like a lot. It's like, yes,

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Speaker 1: it is a lot, and when you add it, it's

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Speaker 1: a lot. And all the resources on the thing are

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Speaker 1: in another country, in another language. Like it is a

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Speaker 1: way higher bar to putting out a new episode from

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Speaker 1: each of us every week. Yeah, just to get the basics.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, Happy Friday, whatever's happening on your weekend. I

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Speaker 1: hope it's great. We'll be back with a Saturday Classic tomorrow.

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Speaker 1: We'll be back on Monday with a brand new episode.

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Speaker 1: And we hope everybody has a great, great weekend. And

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Speaker 1: if you're working and your weekend is a different time,

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Speaker 1: or you don't have real weekends, whatever's on your plate,

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Speaker 1: hope it's great. Stuff you missed in History Class is

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Speaker 1: a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit

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Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to

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Speaker 1: your favorite shows.