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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 1: You know I'm automatically attracted to beautiful I just started

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Speaker 1: kissing them. It's like a magnet. When you're a start,

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Speaker 1: they let you do it. You can do anything. That

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Speaker 1: infamous access Hollywood videotape of Donald Trump will be part

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Speaker 1: of the evidence that New York author Egene Carroll presents

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Speaker 1: in her civil defamation and battery case against Trump overclaims

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Speaker 1: that he raped her in a dressing room of Bergdoff

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Speaker 1: Goodman back in the nineties. Trump denies the allegations and

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Speaker 1: called it a made up scam on his truth social platform,

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Speaker 1: but he has not been in the courtroom where a

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Speaker 1: jury of six men and three women will decide whether

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Speaker 1: he's libel for sexually assaulting Carol decades ago and defaming

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Speaker 1: her last year by claiming on social media that she

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Speaker 1: fabricated the attack to sell a book. Joining Me is

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Speaker 1: Judy's litigation partner of ASK LP, where she leads the

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Speaker 1: Sexual abuse practice. This trials about an event that allegedly

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Speaker 1: happened thirty years ago. Tell us about the New York

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Speaker 1: Adult Survivors Act, which allows Carol to bring this case,

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Speaker 1: despite the statute of limitations.

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Speaker 2: So the New York's Adult Survirus Act addresses just that issue,

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Speaker 2: that being if there was a sexual assault sexual violence

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Speaker 2: that occurred against an individual who was eighteen years or older.

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Speaker 2: What it does is that it finally brings the law

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Speaker 2: to be more consistent with what studies and what science

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Speaker 2: has shown, and that is that typically individuals do not

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Speaker 2: fully disclose. They may even have partial disclosure, but they

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Speaker 2: don't do that until much later in life, average age

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Speaker 2: fifty two to fifty three. So this Adult Survivors Act

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Speaker 2: allows now for this one year what we call revival

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Speaker 2: window for claims to be brought. The window closes in

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Speaker 2: November of this year, so this would fall within that

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Speaker 2: Act and would be appropriate for her attorneys to file.

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Speaker 1: Carol's testimony is going to be bolstered by the testimony

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Speaker 1: of two women who publicly claimed that Trump sexually assaulted

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Speaker 1: them before the twenty sixteen election, as well as that

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Speaker 1: infamous Hollywood Access tape where Trump brags about how easy

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Speaker 1: it is for famous men to grope women. Explain why

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Speaker 1: the judge is allowing that evidence in which is not

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Speaker 1: specifically about this case.

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Speaker 2: What I believe that the judge basing is ruling on

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Speaker 2: is what we call modus operandi. Typically, Trump's attorney would

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Speaker 2: argue that that type of evidence would be prejudicial. However,

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Speaker 2: there's exceptions to that rule, and what the judge is

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Speaker 2: allowing is showing that this is a practice, this is

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Speaker 2: a pattern by this individual to engage in this type

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Speaker 2: of behavior, so it's not prejudiced the accused, but more

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Speaker 2: so to show that this is part and practice, that

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Speaker 2: this is the mode in which this individual carries out

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Speaker 2: these violent crimes.

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Speaker 1: Usually in civil cases, the plaintiff calls the defendant as

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Speaker 1: a witness. Why isn't the plaintiff calling Trump here?

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Speaker 2: Well, it's my understanding that missus Carroll's attorneys they have

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Speaker 2: a very damaging and very compelling recorded deposition, videotape deposition

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Speaker 2: of mister Trump. They were very wise during the discovery

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Speaker 2: process to make it videotape depositions. Not every deposition is videotaped,

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Speaker 2: but that deposition will be presented and show the jury

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Speaker 2: exactly what they need to corroborate and also as evidence

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Speaker 2: standing alone on itself, to show the culpability and to

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Speaker 2: show that Trump should be liable for the rape of

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Speaker 2: miss Carroll, and that's why it's not essential that they

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Speaker 2: call him.

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Speaker 1: Trump decided not to show up in person for the openings,

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Speaker 1: and he may not even attend the trial. Is that

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Speaker 1: a mistake on his part? The jury seeing that he's

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Speaker 1: not even.

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Speaker 2: There, well, you know, I think that speaks to two things.

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Speaker 2: I think that that speaks to the way that he

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Speaker 2: views these accusations. And it also I know that there

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Speaker 2: were certain arguments or applications made to the court by

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Speaker 2: mister Takapino, Trump's attorney to state that it would be

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Speaker 2: a logistical inconvenience for mister Trump to show up, and

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Speaker 2: that was the reason. Why do I think that that's

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Speaker 2: a disadvantage. Absolutely, if you know you have someone you're

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Speaker 2: being accused of raping another individual, of ruining their life,

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Speaker 2: you would expect that one would show up to show

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Speaker 2: the jury how serious you take these charges, and that

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Speaker 2: you were there to defend against these accusations. So I

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Speaker 2: think that the absence of mister Trump during this trial

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Speaker 2: speaks volumes to how he feels about the case, how

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Speaker 2: he feels about you know, women in general. But this

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Speaker 2: type of attitude I have seen through my work is

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Speaker 2: nothing new. You have individuals who act out, who believe

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Speaker 2: that the accusations of a woman, a man, an individual

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Speaker 2: who's alleging sexual violence against them, it's not taken seriously. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: that's still the attitude. So you know, it speaks volumes

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Speaker 2: to me, and it's not something that I would ever

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Speaker 2: recommend a client.

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Speaker 1: To Trump's lawyer Joe Tekapina during his opening, besides casting

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Speaker 1: Dad on nearly every detail of Carol's story, he followed

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Speaker 1: with an aggressive attack on her, accusing her of exploiting

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Speaker 1: her story for personal gain. Quote she became a celebrity

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Speaker 1: and loved every minute of it. Is it dangerous in

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Speaker 1: a case like this to attack the victim?

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Speaker 2: This defense that mister Trump's attorney Joe Tagapina is engaging

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Speaker 2: in is unfortunately common, and I think that the trend

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Speaker 2: is showing that it is unsuccessful. It is the oldest

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Speaker 2: tool in a litigator's book during the course of sexual

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Speaker 2: abuse litigation to try to cast the victim, to try

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Speaker 2: to cast the survivor miss Carroll an unfavorable light. We

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Speaker 2: know that Miss Carroll had risen to prominence, was an

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Speaker 2: accomplished career woman professional prior to meeting mister Trump, so

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Speaker 2: I think that he'll fail on that. And moreover, mister

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Speaker 2: Tagapina is engaging in a code that we know has

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Speaker 2: been practiced by individuals that have been accused and by

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Speaker 2: culture in general. And here's the code. One blame the victim.

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Speaker 2: The second part of that code is to not believe

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Speaker 2: the victim that Miss Carroll, it's my understanding. And also

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Speaker 2: her attorneys will present other individuals. We talked about this

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Speaker 2: just a moment ago, other individuals that also accused mister

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Speaker 2: Trump of sexual abuse. So also part of this code,

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Speaker 2: in addition to blaming the victim, is that you can't

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Speaker 2: have just one survivor say they were raped. You have

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Speaker 2: to have a cluster of individuals, more than one woman.

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Speaker 2: It's not enough to just move forward on the testimony

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Speaker 2: of just one individual. The code also includes retaliating against victims,

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Speaker 2: So blaming the victim is a form, it's a degree

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Speaker 2: of retaliation. So what he's doing, I think is very dangerous.

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Speaker 2: I think that this accomplished very successful professional woman. I

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Speaker 2: don't think that it will sit well with the jury.

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Speaker 2: And I think that individuals that believe that the way

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Speaker 2: to defend a claim to abuse a victim again and

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Speaker 2: retraumatize them through this sense of she's doing it for

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Speaker 2: There are plenty other ways for individuals to acquire fame

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Speaker 2: or notoriety. And I'm sure that missus Carroll would have

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Speaker 2: been smart enough, more skilled enough than to accuse mister

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Speaker 2: Trump of this heinous crime. And you know, it should

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Speaker 2: be noted that she had filed a separate lawsuit based

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Speaker 2: on defamation, and to me, that's a very powerful piece

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Speaker 2: of evidence.

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Speaker 1: Trump's lawyers were planning to show the jury excerpts of

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Speaker 1: Egen Carroll's deposition to show evidence of her past sex life,

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Speaker 1: and the judge barred.

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Speaker 2: That absolutely absolutely. You know, I'm a little shocked when

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Speaker 2: you've been accused of something like this and you're desperate

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Speaker 2: and you're looking for any type of defense. To me,

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Speaker 2: they are looking and searching in the bottom of the

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Speaker 2: barrel for a defense. So to try to bring in

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Speaker 2: a survivor's past sex life absolutely the most archaic tactic

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Speaker 2: they could have used. And it's actually quite embarrassing that

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Speaker 2: a survivor would have to even speak to her sex life,

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Speaker 2: whatever it is or lack thereof, So to me, that

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Speaker 2: is a very weak attempt and again scraping at the

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Speaker 2: bottom of the barrel, looking for anything and just trying

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Speaker 2: to distract the juror as to the issues.

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Speaker 1: How important is Egene Carrol's testimony when she does have

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Speaker 1: as we talked about before, she does have corroboration, So

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Speaker 1: how important is her testimony itself?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely very important. It's something that the jury. What we

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Speaker 2: call on our jurors to do is to evaluate the

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Speaker 2: credibility to look at the witness as they're testifying. And also,

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Speaker 2: because this was brought by her, they have to they

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Speaker 2: meeting her team. The plaintiff has to go forward with

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Speaker 2: presenting evidence to the jury through her testimony. So it's crucial.

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Speaker 2: It's crucial procedurally, and it's also crucial for the jury

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Speaker 2: to assess what she's talking about and also to assess

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Speaker 2: the different elements of the claims that she's making, the

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Speaker 2: allegations she's making. So it's very important, and you know,

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Speaker 2: the jury needs to hear what happened.

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to figure out what defense the Trump team

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Speaker 1: is going to put up besides attacking Carol's story. I mean,

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Speaker 1: especially if Trump isn't going to take the stand.

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Speaker 2: I agree with you on that point. What is the

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Speaker 2: defense and in my opinion, there is no defense. You know,

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Speaker 2: from what we know and what has been reported, it's

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Speaker 2: two things. And it goes back to that code that

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Speaker 2: I was referring to that many times being followed by

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Speaker 2: individuals accused of sexual abuse, sexual crimes, and what we

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Speaker 2: see in culture blame one defense, blame the victim. So

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Speaker 2: first you engage in these types of defenses. First, if

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Speaker 2: you can't call it a lie, which I think that

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Speaker 2: was one thing early on that mister Trump and his team,

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Speaker 2: they just tried to point the finger and say that's

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Speaker 2: a lie, didn't happen. Well, in response to that, what

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Speaker 2: do we see. We see Miss Carroll's team bring in

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Speaker 2: witnesses her what we call outcry witnesses or disclosure witnesses,

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Speaker 2: very compelling piece of evidence that she did disclose to

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Speaker 2: individuals what happened. And then if that doesn't work, and

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Speaker 2: then you say, well, they're making these accusations for some

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Speaker 2: type of alternative motives or reasons other than the truth.

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Speaker 2: And in this case, what do you have you have

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Speaker 2: mister Trump saying that it's because she's seeking notoriety, Well,

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Speaker 2: that will be defeated because miss Carroll's team will show

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Speaker 2: that she was already an accomplished career woman, and that

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Speaker 2: to me, in general, is a very weak defense. So,

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Speaker 2: you know, the sum of this, of what I'm saying

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Speaker 2: is that they are going to be hard pressed in

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Speaker 2: this case to mount a real, true and viable defense.

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Speaker 2: The evidence is compelling. The word of one woman, of

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Speaker 2: one survivor should be enough in general, and I believe

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Speaker 2: it will be enough in this trial.

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Speaker 1: The jury is composed of six men and three women.

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Speaker 1: Does the plaintiff in a case like this normally want

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Speaker 1: more women on the jury who might understand the story better.

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Speaker 2: You know, not necessarily the six men. They can have sisters,

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Speaker 2: maybe they have partners that are women. So today's jurors

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Speaker 2: are sophisticated enough to understand the issues and understand sexual violence,

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Speaker 2: and sexual violence doesn't just happen to women. It happens,

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Speaker 2: we know, to individuals of any sexual orientation or gender identity.

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Speaker 2: So you don't necessarily need to have sick x women

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Speaker 2: or a full women jury. Just similarly, you don't need

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Speaker 2: to have, you know, a jury of all one race

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Speaker 2: to understand the complexities of the issues. So that doesn't necessarily,

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Speaker 2: you know, cause concern. I have worked with and I

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Speaker 2: have clients that I've represented that have been survivors of

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Speaker 2: sexual abuse that are men themselves. So you know, individuals

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Speaker 2: today are sophisticated enough to understand violence and sexual violence.

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Speaker 1: Thanks Judy. That's Judy Saunders, litigation partner of ask LP

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Speaker 1: Rammy winning rapper Pras Michelle, who reinvented himself as a

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Speaker 1: political influencer, is at the center of a case about

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Speaker 1: an international, multimillion dollar conspiracy across two presidencies. Prosecutors contend

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Speaker 1: that Michelle funneled money from a Malaysian billionaire through straw

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Speaker 1: donors to Barack Obama's twenty twelve reelection campaign and tried

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Speaker 1: to squelch a Justice Department investigation and influence an extradition

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Speaker 1: case on behalf of China Under the Trump administration, That

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Speaker 1: billionaire Jolo is now a fugitive and Michelle, who made

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Speaker 1: at least eighty eight million dollars in the deals, is

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Speaker 1: on trial in federal court in Washington, d c. Joining

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Speaker 1: me is Bloomberg legal reporter David Voriakis. Michelle was paid

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Speaker 1: twenty million dollars to get Jolo a photo with President

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Speaker 1: Barack Obama in twenty twelve. Tell us about that.

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Speaker 3: Well, this trial is about pros Michelle, who was a

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Speaker 3: Grammy winning rapper from the nineteen nineties hip hop group

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Speaker 3: with Fujis. He made a lot of money that way,

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Speaker 3: and then about a or soa go, he became friends

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Speaker 3: with Jolo, who's a Malaysian tycoon who is suspected of

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Speaker 3: stealing literally billions of dollars from the Malaysian development from

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Speaker 3: one MDB, and that scandal has been investigated by the

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Speaker 3: United States and several other nations. Jolo in twenty twelve

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Speaker 3: wanted to get close to President Obama during his re

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Speaker 3: election campaign, and he really wanted a photograph with President Obama.

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Speaker 3: And Jolo had become friends with pros Michelle and had

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Speaker 3: partied with Praz and Praz traveled around the world for

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Speaker 3: a period with as Jolo did with other celebrities like

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Speaker 3: Leonardo DiCaprio. So in twenty twelve, Jolo paid almost twenty

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Speaker 3: one million to pros Michelle to help facilitate him getting

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Speaker 3: a photograph with President Obama. And this is one of

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Speaker 3: three conspiracies that pros Michelle is charged with at his

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Speaker 3: federal trial in Washington for.

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Speaker 1: Twenty million dollars couldn't Jolo have donated that and gotten

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Speaker 1: a photo that way.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's not easy to get close to the president,

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Speaker 3: and typically political donors who give a lot of money

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Speaker 3: can get close to the president and get a photograph

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Speaker 3: or get some FaceTime with the president. But in this case, Jolo,

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Speaker 3: as a Malaysian national, was not able to give political

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Speaker 3: donations to the Obama campaign. And he also had been

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Speaker 3: vetted by the Obama campaign and they were uncomfortable with

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Speaker 3: his playboy image and so they did not want him

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Speaker 3: in campaign events. Pros Michelle had promised that he would

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Speaker 3: do his best. He initially took a million dollars to

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Speaker 3: try to think about how to get a photograph or Jolo,

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Speaker 3: and then he tried to arrange so that Jolo could

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Speaker 3: get into two different campaign events in twenty twelve, and

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Speaker 3: in both cases the campaign would not allow Jolo in. Ultimately,

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Speaker 3: Jolo got his photograph with Barack and Michelle Obama at

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Speaker 3: the holiday party in twenty twelve, and there's a picture

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Speaker 3: of the three of them standing by a White House

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Speaker 3: Christmas tree.

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Speaker 1: Besides using straw donors to funnel illegal donations from low

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Speaker 1: into Obama's campaign, what else is he accused of here.

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Speaker 3: He's also accused of trying to get the Justice Department

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Speaker 3: to drop a pending civil forfeiture case against Jolo. What

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Speaker 3: happened in twenty sixteen is the Justice Department to Jolo

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Speaker 3: as the US investigations picked up and other investigations around

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Speaker 3: the world into whether Jolo stole these billions of dollars

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Speaker 3: and then laundered them. And so Jolo was very concerned

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Speaker 3: and he wanted to try to to see if he

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Speaker 3: could get those charges dropped. And so what he did

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Speaker 3: was Hey ultimately one hundred million dollars to a group

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Speaker 3: that included pros Michelle, and there were several other people

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Speaker 3: who pleaded guilty. There was a former Trump fundraiser, Elliott Broydy,

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Speaker 3: there was a former Justice Department attorney, George Higginbotham, whom

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Speaker 3: moon lighted as Michelle's lawyer. And there was Nicky Lum Davis,

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Speaker 3: who was a Hawaiian businessman. All three of them pleaded guilty,

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Speaker 3: but Trump pardoned Broidy, and at the trial, jurors heard

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Speaker 3: the testimony from Higginbotham and Broidy were government witnesses testifying

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Speaker 3: about how they tried to use Broidy's access to Donald

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Speaker 3: Trump and key figures in the Trump administration to get

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Speaker 3: the case against Jolo dropped. That was ultimately unsuccessful, and

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Speaker 3: later on Jolo was indicted twice by the Justice Department,

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Speaker 3: once in Washington and once in Brooklyn, New York.

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Speaker 1: Did the prosecutors offer Michelle a deal?

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Speaker 3: I believe that the prosecutors did try to negotiate a

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Speaker 3: free deal with Michelle, but ultimately was unsuccessful. He chose

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Speaker 3: to go to trial. He testified in his own defense,

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Speaker 3: and he denied that he was trying to funnel Jolo's

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Speaker 3: money into the Obama campaign. He denied that he knew

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Speaker 3: that he was supposed to register as a foreign agent

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Speaker 3: under the Foreign Agent's Registration Act to reflect his work

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Speaker 3: for Jolo in trying to convince the Trump administration to

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Speaker 3: drop their investigation of Jolo. And then there's a third

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Speaker 3: aspect to the trial, a third conspiracy, which is several

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Speaker 3: of the same players pros Michelle, Elliott, Roydy, Nicki, Lum Davis,

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Speaker 3: and a couple of others tried to get the US

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Speaker 3: government to extradite a Chinese billionaire, Guo Wanghwa, Guy who

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Speaker 3: was in the United States living in New York City

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Speaker 3: and was a friend of Steve Bannon. He was wanting

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Speaker 3: he acted as a dissident in the United States and

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Speaker 3: repeatedly criticize the Chinese government and Chinese officials quite explicitly.

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Speaker 3: The Chinese didn't like that, and they had charged him

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Speaker 3: with crimes in China. They wanted the Trump administration to

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Speaker 3: extradite him back so that they could put him on

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Speaker 3: trial in China. And so at the same time that

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Speaker 3: Cross Michelle was trying to get the US to draw

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Speaker 3: this investigation of Jolo, he was also trying to get

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Speaker 3: the US to extradite Kuo Wan Guai as Chinese billionaire

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Speaker 3: dissidents back to China, and there was a lot of

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Speaker 3: intrigue involved in those efforts. At one point he met

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Speaker 3: a high ranking security official from China, both in China

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Speaker 3: and at the Four Seasons Hotel in Manhattan, to talk

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Speaker 3: about the progress in trying to convince the Trump administration

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Speaker 3: to extradite Whoa and Guhy. At another point, George Higginbotham,

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Speaker 3: who was pros Michelle's personal attorney even though he worked

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Speaker 3: for the Justice Department, he went into the Chinese embassy

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Speaker 3: on a Sunday morning in Washington to talk about trying

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Speaker 3: to extradite Whoawan. Why that effort failed, as did the

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Speaker 3: effort to drop the Jolo investigations by the United States.

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Speaker 3: But pros Michelle got his money. He made eighteen or

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Speaker 3: nineteen million dollars from the twenty twelve effort to get

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Speaker 3: Jolo close to President Obama, and he made more than

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Speaker 3: seventy million dollars in the later efforts in twenty seventeen

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Speaker 3: to extradite Guoha and Guy and get the Jolo case dropped.

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Speaker 1: Did he have to give any of that money back.

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Speaker 3: It's not part of this trial, but previously the Justice

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Speaker 3: Department filed a civil forfeiture suit and feesed a number

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Speaker 3: of his accounts. That case is currently on hold, pending

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Speaker 3: the outcome of the criminal trial.

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Speaker 1: So tell us how was he on the stand? Was

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Speaker 1: he a good witness on his own behalf?

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Speaker 3: He came across at the end as a sympathetic figure.

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Speaker 3: I think it was clear that people understood him better beforehand.

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Speaker 3: The question is whether the jury will believe his explanations

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Speaker 3: about how he handled the tens of millions of dollars

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Speaker 3: he got from Jolo. The prosecutors say that Jolo essentially

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Speaker 3: was wandering his money through pros Michelle. And pros Michelle's

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Speaker 3: position is that once Jolo paid him the money, it

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Speaker 3: was his money and he was free to decide what

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Speaker 3: to do with it, That it was no longer Jolo's money,

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Speaker 3: and that he saw that money as an investment in

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Speaker 3: entertainment ventures.

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Speaker 1: So did the prosecutor make any inroads on cross examination

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Speaker 1: or did.

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Speaker 3: He hold up the prosecutors I thought scored a number

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Speaker 3: of points on cross examination, and you know, there's a

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Speaker 3: great deal of evidence against pros Michelle, and prose held

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Speaker 3: his ground on his central points that it was his money,

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Speaker 3: not Jolo's money, once he received it, that he was

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Speaker 3: not funneling Low's donations into the Obama campaign, and that

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Speaker 3: he was trying to you know, build entertainment business. But

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Speaker 3: there was a great deal of testimony against him. There

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Speaker 3: was a lot of documentary evidence, and there's his failure

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Speaker 3: to register under the Foreign Agent's Registration Act or you know,

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Speaker 3: as the agent of China, and so there's a considerable

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Speaker 3: amount of evidence that the government has a raid. We'll

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Speaker 3: just have to see how the jury is that.

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Speaker 1: So this has been a long trial and there have

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Speaker 1: been some high profile witness. Is why did Leo DiCaprio testify.

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Speaker 3: Well, DiCaprio essentially gave a lot of background on the

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Speaker 3: relationship between him and Jolo and Jolo's lifestyle about how

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Speaker 3: he spent millions of dollars, you know, living the high

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Speaker 3: life in clubs and the bars and on yachts. And

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Speaker 3: Dicaprios gave a critical piece of evidence that helped the

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Speaker 3: government's case, which is that he said he told DiCaprio

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Speaker 3: in twenty twelve that he wanted to put twenty to

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Speaker 3: thirty million dollars into the Democratic Party during the election cycle,

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Speaker 3: and DiCaprio said, wow, that's a lot of money. And

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Speaker 3: so that supports the government's contention that Jolo put twenty

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Speaker 3: million dollars toward getting a photograph with President Obama.

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Speaker 1: So what is the jury composition of the jury?

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Speaker 3: Seven women and five men and who We've been listening

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Speaker 3: closely for a month. This could take some time before

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Speaker 3: we get a verdict.

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Speaker 1: Well, I know you are going to be waiting for

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Speaker 1: the verdict, Dan, You'll let us know as soon as

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Speaker 1: it happens. Thanks so much, David. That's Bloomberg Legal reporter

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Speaker 1: David Voriakis, and that's it for this edition of The

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Law Show. Remember you can always get the latest

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Speaker 1: legal news on our Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can find

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Speaker 1: them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at www dot bloomberg

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