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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Markets Podcast. I'm Paul Sweeney. Alongside

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Speaker 1: my co host Matt Miller. Every business day we bring

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Speaker 1: you interviews from CEOs, market pros, and Bloomberg experts, along

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Speaker 1: with essential market moving news. Find the Bloomberg Markets Podcast

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Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts, and

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Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot com slash podcast. Let's get right to

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Speaker 1: our next guest, Sad Path Soda Ryan, chief revenue officer

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Speaker 1: from Verizon, joins a sad Path. Thanks so much for

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Speaker 1: joining us here, huge global company, Verizon Business Consumer. How

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Speaker 1: has your business changed in the last two years? Hey,

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Speaker 1: good morning everyone. Look, it's been a good time for us.

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Speaker 1: You know, as networks become even more important as people

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Speaker 1: work from home, remote work is more prevalent networks and

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Speaker 1: what we offer becomes really important. And for us, it's

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Speaker 1: also where we are launching five G you know, we

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Speaker 1: are right now at the cusp of a second phase

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Speaker 1: of the five G era where we turn on our

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Speaker 1: ce band network in a few weeks times. So it's

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Speaker 1: it's it's just a great time to be in this business.

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Speaker 1: So you are the chief revenue officer. I don't know

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Speaker 1: how deep into the tech you are, but you have

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Speaker 1: to have some um view on the safety of five G.

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Speaker 1: All of a sudden, for the first time last week,

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Speaker 1: I'm hearing that it's capable of messing with airplanes altitude

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Speaker 1: sensors and maybe you would make landing dangerous. To me,

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Speaker 1: it's pretty binary. Either it's dangerous or it's not. What's

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Speaker 1: the deal, It's not dangerous. Look, safeties are most important

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Speaker 1: to us, and it's kind of number one in what

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Speaker 1: we do. All we that are forty countries around the

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Speaker 1: world that have five G networks in the same CE

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Speaker 1: band that we operate in. Planes takeoff, planes land there

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Speaker 1: really well, one of the countries is France. You know,

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Speaker 1: American planes go in and get out there. What we

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Speaker 1: are proposing is a kind of a similar approach to

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Speaker 1: what's there in France, where we kind of have an

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Speaker 1: exclusionary zone just outside the airports where we have lower

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Speaker 1: power levels so there's no interference that way. You know.

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Speaker 1: We give the f A and the FCC six months

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Speaker 1: to work this out, but we feel very confident and

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Speaker 1: we just can't wait to launch the network. I mean,

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Speaker 1: even if you didn't have that sand path, what if

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Speaker 1: you had the strongest, most powerful five G signals right

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Speaker 1: up the tower. Um, would it interfere with I mean,

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Speaker 1: aren't the bandwidths different? Isn't Isn't there someone who made

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Speaker 1: sure that this is a different part of the frequency

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Speaker 1: before they sold you, um, this bundle? Yeah, exactly. Look,

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Speaker 1: you know we spent fifty three billion dollars for it. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And the laws of physics are the same either in

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Speaker 1: the United States or in France or any of the

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Speaker 1: other countries. In fact, in the US, the guard band

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Speaker 1: are kind of the protection band between the spectrum we

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Speaker 1: use and then the spectrum the airlines use. Is one

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Speaker 1: of the largest in the world, so there are two

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Speaker 1: different spectrums. We have a very large guard band, and

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Speaker 1: with us, you know, lowering power levels and other technical

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Speaker 1: things around airports, we see absolutely no risk. So Sampath

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Speaker 1: gives a sense advertising again a huge company. Um, how

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Speaker 1: what's the are you know, managing through the pandemic? How

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Speaker 1: has Verizon done? How has Verizon adapted? A couple of things,

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Speaker 1: you know, One, we have to balance out four of

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Speaker 1: our stakeholders, you know, whether it's employees, customers, shareholders, and

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Speaker 1: broader society. So just having that balance has been a

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Speaker 1: good framework for us to get through. The second is

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Speaker 1: that personal safety is important for our teams. But we

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Speaker 1: also realized that the service we operate networks is kind

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Speaker 1: of the backbone of the global economy today. It's the

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Speaker 1: rails on which most of the economy runs on. So

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Speaker 1: for us, it's been a careful balance of the four

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Speaker 1: stakeholders as well as ensuring that our networks up and

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Speaker 1: running at the same time. Now it's also the same

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Speaker 1: time we decided to deploy five G. More broadly, Actually,

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Speaker 1: it's been a little faster than what we had planned

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Speaker 1: because our construction has not stopped. We've moved applied faster.

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Speaker 1: So you know, a little bit of good and bad,

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Speaker 1: but overall is just a great time to be here.

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Speaker 1: The other thing I've noticed, um from the consumer side,

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Speaker 1: people have been using more data than ever on a

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Speaker 1: level that they probably wouldn't have imagined. Not just consuming um,

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Speaker 1: you know, uh media content like television shows and movies,

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Speaker 1: but they're doing all of their banking online, and they're

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Speaker 1: starting their cars with their phones and controlling their home

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Speaker 1: HVAC systems with their phones. And you know, this was

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Speaker 1: what was forecast to happen, but I don't think anyone

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Speaker 1: expected it to boom all of a sudden happening side

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Speaker 1: of the period of one year. Um, how is that

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Speaker 1: for you? Are you still offering unlimited data packages or

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Speaker 1: people using fort sixty gigs a month? Yeah, people are

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Speaker 1: using a lot of data. As you said, they use

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Speaker 1: it for everything. I wish I could say everything is

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Speaker 1: for great to you with my kids use it for

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Speaker 1: a lot more gaming than they need to. But yes,

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Speaker 1: definitely a lot of data consumption that's gone, which is

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Speaker 1: why the five G network is critical because one of

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Speaker 1: the biggest advantages of five G if you get more

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Speaker 1: throughput and more speed. So we're literally adding a ton

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Speaker 1: and a ton of a technical term, a ton of

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Speaker 1: capacity in the network. All right, Sam Path, thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for joining us. Really appreciate getting your thoughts there,

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Speaker 1: Sam Path, so many on a Ryan, chief revenue officer

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Speaker 1: for Verizon. I was just typing out a letter to

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Speaker 1: some of the producers upstairs at the Quick Take at

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Quick Take, a little pitch for them because I said,

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Speaker 1: you should have me on more I can talk about cars,

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Speaker 1: and they were like, yeah, all you want to talk

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Speaker 1: about is cars, But I said, look, it's at the

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Speaker 1: center of the economy, probably more so UM that any

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Speaker 1: time since Henry Ford started his production line, because these

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Speaker 1: vehicles use more and more chips, especially as they produce

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Speaker 1: UM more hybrids and e vs than they ever have before.

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Speaker 1: It's it's connected to the labor story, it's connected to

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Speaker 1: UH consumer spending, and it's just amazing. Let's let's focus

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Speaker 1: in on the chips part of it, because we have

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Speaker 1: not Cool Dougal Uh. He is a senior VP and

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Speaker 1: General manager of Automotive UH for qual Calm right now,

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Speaker 1: and they are I'm gonna get the biggest not Cool

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Speaker 1: correct me if if I'm wrong, the biggest automotive chip

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Speaker 1: maker in the world. I would like to see the

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Speaker 1: fastest going. Good morning, gentlemen, the fastest growing all right.

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Speaker 1: I just know because UM I was at the Munich

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Speaker 1: Auto Show. I spent a lot of time at car shows,

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Speaker 1: and UM I noticed so many products there, UM, from

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Speaker 1: the trucks to the cars to Ducati motorcycles are packing

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Speaker 1: qual Calm chips UM, and you can't make them fast enough. Right,

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Speaker 1: Are you still at a point where your order books

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Speaker 1: are completely full and you just can't ship them quickly enough.

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Speaker 1: To the customer. You know, that's right. We've been able

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Speaker 1: to stay ahead of the challenges that the industry has

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Speaker 1: had because we prioritize automotive over our other businesses, just

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Speaker 1: because of the complexity of the auto industry. But we

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Speaker 1: consider ourselves MATH bought in a very fortunate position because

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Speaker 1: you know, we uh, I would say, human as far

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Speaker 1: back as a decade ago, made the call that automotive

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Speaker 1: was a very important adjacency forkcom to start to focus

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Speaker 1: on and invest in as this market goes through a

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Speaker 1: significant amount of transformation, and we are seeing a lot

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Speaker 1: of the dividends of the investments we've made back then

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Speaker 1: pay out as we look ahead. Now, cool, maybe you

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Speaker 1: can settle an argument. Matt and I were just having

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Speaker 1: literally here in the studio about you know, I was questioning,

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Speaker 1: why are we still having such a pronounced chip shortage

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Speaker 1: on a global scale. Matt says, it was, you know,

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Speaker 1: just unprecedented increase in demand across a range of products.

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Speaker 1: I said, no, no, no, I think it's got to

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Speaker 1: come from the supply side. That maybe plant closures in Asia,

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Speaker 1: and so that really came on the supply side, but

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Speaker 1: so long ago, I know, But I'm just thinking, these

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Speaker 1: chip guys have got to figure this thing out, so

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Speaker 1: settle this debate for us. I think there are there

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Speaker 1: are a few different things going on, and I think

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Speaker 1: first of all, electrification is creating the need for new

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Speaker 1: architectures for vehicles. So there is a lot of focus

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Speaker 1: as you look at the next generation modern cars to

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Speaker 1: move towards an architecture that relies on semiconductors much more

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Speaker 1: heavily as it has. As you know, the the car

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Speaker 1: industry is moving more towards the mobility business, which means

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Speaker 1: you have to be able to have a tremendous amount

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Speaker 1: of software and semiconductors that power that software. UH. What

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Speaker 1: compounds become flexity is as we went through COVID UH,

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Speaker 1: the automotive architecture has relied on a variety of different

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Speaker 1: vintages of semiconductors. As architectures and automotive haven't evolved for

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Speaker 1: a long period of time, there is a dependency on

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Speaker 1: older architectures that use semiconductors in lagging process notes. That's

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Speaker 1: when most of the complexity is where you've been developing

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Speaker 1: semiconductors on older notes for a long period of time

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Speaker 1: that that have a lot more complexity to modernize. The

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Speaker 1: complexity is much less when you talk about the next

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Speaker 1: generation notes. So what we are starting to see is

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Speaker 1: a significant transition towards newer notes. You can't completely get

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Speaker 1: yourself out of the depends on older notes, but a

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Speaker 1: significant faster transition to newer nodes, which obviously places to

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Speaker 1: our advantage. I've noticed some some carmakers are just dropping

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Speaker 1: functions completely because they don't have the chips to power them.

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Speaker 1: For example, about ten years ago, a lot of the

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Speaker 1: carmakers started offering the style start technology where your motor

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Speaker 1: switches off at a stoplight. UM. Car guys hate it

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Speaker 1: right and always try and disable it. Now I've noticed

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Speaker 1: some car makers like GM, I'm building a truck on

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Speaker 1: their website and they say, uh, no stops to feature anymore.

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Speaker 1: So you get fifty dollars back. Are you are you

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Speaker 1: going to see more of that you think the cool

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Speaker 1: or less of that? Are Are we at a point

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Speaker 1: where this is getting better or we're or still worse?

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Speaker 1: I think it's an excellent question. I think that's an

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Speaker 1: example of the dependency on a small micro controller that

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Speaker 1: is in short supply and it's going to be harder

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Speaker 1: to get around. The transition we are seeing pollen mat

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Speaker 1: is that those steps of functions are moving to software,

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Speaker 1: so where you have much harder performance application processors that

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Speaker 1: the auto industry is now embracing, and a function like

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Speaker 1: stop start can actually be integrated as a software function

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Speaker 1: into the higher end processor as opposed to rely on

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Speaker 1: a simple discrete micro controller. So you will start to

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Speaker 1: see examples like this play out, and that functionality gets

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Speaker 1: subsumed into larger application processors that then manage that functionality

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Speaker 1: to software. All right, Nicole, here's the money question. When

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Speaker 1: is this chip shortage going to be addressed? Here? When

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Speaker 1: are we making back to more normalized supply demand. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think it's a complex question because it

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Speaker 1: is a bit different for each automaker. Everybody has a

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Speaker 1: slightly different type of challenge too. Smaller automakers are going

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Speaker 1: to be able to get around it faster, especially if

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Speaker 1: they move to newer architectures. The larger ones that have

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Speaker 1: a lot more complexity, lot more diversity across their uh

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Speaker 1: their portfolio, have a lot more dependency on the complexity

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Speaker 1: of the semiconductor crisis. But I would imagine, you know,

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Speaker 1: in the I think we are. I think towards the

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Speaker 1: end of twenty two we should certainly start to see

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Speaker 1: the industry come out of a lot of this complexity

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Speaker 1: on the whole. From our perspective, we have actually been

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Speaker 1: able to stay ahead of this challenge, but clearly we

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Speaker 1: supply a portion of the overall semiconductor portfolio within a

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Speaker 1: vehicle n cool what's the smartest car out there? What's

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Speaker 1: the what's the coolest, high highest tech vehicle that you

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Speaker 1: could buy right now? Yeah? I think, you know, there

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Speaker 1: are several because we have so many different partners and

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Speaker 1: customers that we work with. But you know, one thing

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Speaker 1: that we are very proud of is the fact that

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Speaker 1: the strategy that we've laid out over the last five

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Speaker 1: years has now culminated into working called the Snap Drag

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Speaker 1: and Digital Chassis, which is basically enabling automakers with the

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Speaker 1: newest tech, the latest semiconductors in software, connected to highly

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Speaker 1: complex ecosystems, whether it's in the autonomous space or in

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Speaker 1: the digital cockpit experience or five connectivity, and bringing that

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Speaker 1: together to help automakers make a much larger step up

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Speaker 1: in terms of modernization. We've been working with General Motors

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Speaker 1: for a number of years, but over twenty years. And

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Speaker 1: Mary Burton announced the partnership with us UH can see

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Speaker 1: yes a few days ago. We are very part of

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Speaker 1: the Altar Cruise work that we've been doing with them,

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Speaker 1: which is a level three door to door autonomous service.

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Speaker 1: We made an announcement with the bub back in November

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Speaker 1: on Ada. Wal Boy has been working with us. Difficult

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Speaker 1: to pick one of my favorite customers, all right, Nicole

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Speaker 1: Nicole Naldgal, Senior VP and General Manager Automotive for Qualcom.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. They need to get more chips out

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Speaker 1: into the marketplace. That's what their customers are demanding. We'll

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Speaker 1: see how long that plays out. We talked about that

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Speaker 1: they'll Take two again buying who are they buying? Other things?

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Speaker 1: Premium twelve billion? Large? That size. I didn't know there

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Speaker 1: was that arm for words with friends. It's not even scrabble,

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Speaker 1: it's an also ran. All right, let's check in with

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Speaker 1: an expert here on this deal. I mean Ben Sad

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Speaker 1: he is t MT analyst at Bloomberg Intelligence. I mean,

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Speaker 1: thanks so much for taking a time here. Is this

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Speaker 1: a good deal for Take two? Their stock is trading down? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I mean thanks for having me and and I think this

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Speaker 1: is a very good deal for for Take two, especially

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Speaker 1: as when you look at the numbers in this deal.

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Speaker 1: First of all, it looks like this is the largest

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Speaker 1: video game deal ever from a mini stand point. And

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Speaker 1: second of all, Take two previously they had almost ten

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Speaker 1: percent of theirselves from mobile, and this deal is gonna,

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Speaker 1: you know, the next few years is gonna push that

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Speaker 1: to over fifty serves of going to mobile. And that's

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Speaker 1: important because mobile is that first is growing. Uh you

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Speaker 1: know gaming, Uh certainly, I just I find that so

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Speaker 1: hard to believe because I don't know what you can

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Speaker 1: do with mobile. I I love video games I have

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Speaker 1: ever since, not Pong, but you know, Galactica and all

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Speaker 1: the way through, um Super Mario Brothers with Nintendo three

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Speaker 1: and none of the Daga up through. You know. Now

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Speaker 1: I'm playing Xbox all the time, Call of Duty and

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Speaker 1: even Red Dead unfortunately I hate it, but I play it. Um,

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Speaker 1: what can you do on mobile? There's like, aside from

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Speaker 1: Angry Birds, right, how can it can't even get complex enough?

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Speaker 1: You know, First, I would say you actually impressed me

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Speaker 1: earlier when you mentioned Collegual Vision, which is, you know,

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Speaker 1: one of the oldest came in conforts even before Autari,

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Speaker 1: so that was gooding knowledge knowledge there I didn't you

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Speaker 1: can know about that. But from gaming, you know, mobile

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Speaker 1: has been very successful because we don't target gamers. They

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Speaker 1: target uh segment in the population called hyper hyper casual gamers. Right,

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Speaker 1: somebody just plays can division a little bit, plays some

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Speaker 1: puzzles or something, or farm reels or world with friends,

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Speaker 1: and that's why this segment has imploded in the last

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Speaker 1: few years, and especially in Asia it has been doing

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Speaker 1: really really well. So really, if to focus on the

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Speaker 1: hyper casual quote unquote gamers, that's why there is a

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Speaker 1: huge success in this platform. I also wonder about the

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Speaker 1: lack of gamers. Are we worried that, you know, the

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Speaker 1: world just isn't producing enough young people. We're gonna actually

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Speaker 1: read a book, We're gonna, we're gonna we're gonna have

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Speaker 1: enough video games for sure, But are there enough consumers

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Speaker 1: for all this content? Yes? Absolutely, I think overall globally,

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Speaker 1: if you include the hyper casual gamers, there's over three

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Speaker 1: billion gamers right now. So it's not going to be

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Speaker 1: the lack of gamers, especially with this new generation there

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Speaker 1: are basically born in gaming. If you think about Fortnight

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Speaker 1: and other games like that. Gaming has become much more

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Speaker 1: mainstream than news to be back then, and now it's

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Speaker 1: all one handed, any billion dollar global industry. So the

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Speaker 1: industry is growing, the user basis growing, so it's not

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Speaker 1: going to be lack of gamers. I think to your point,

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Speaker 1: it's probably the lack of contact. And especially during the pandemic.

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Speaker 1: All the major video game makers were impacted by the pandemics,

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Speaker 1: but they have lower content that they expected. Uh, and

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Speaker 1: talking about this deal here quickly, Uh, Take two kept

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Speaker 1: delaying news about g t A six content of for six,

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Speaker 1: which is one of the major games being awaited in

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Speaker 1: this industry. And this is why this deal kind of

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Speaker 1: makes sense to uh, you know, to remove some of

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Speaker 1: the headaches in the top line that this company with

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Speaker 1: you facing, all right, I mean, thanks so much for

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Speaker 1: bringing us up to date on this big deal in

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Speaker 1: the gaming space. I mean, Ben sad tmt Annalys, Bloomberg Intelligence, Matt,

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Speaker 1: I got, I guess, I gotta. I mean, if you're

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Speaker 1: still there, are you a gamer too? Yes? Three years

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Speaker 1: gaming I started actually on the Commodore sixty four playing

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Speaker 1: space Taxi and Mule, and I've noticed a lot of

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Speaker 1: these games are coming back now you can get them

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Speaker 1: on your phone. That to me is an interesting thing

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Speaker 1: that these um vent games are coming back. Oh yes, look,

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Speaker 1: especially the indie companies. They are smaller ones. They make

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Speaker 1: games like that because the cord of love of resources.

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Speaker 1: And that's why you see Netflix, even Netflix getting into that. So, yes,

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Speaker 1: those are coming back because they have a lot of

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Speaker 1: interesting stolis there. Very cool. Okay, Paul, you're not a gamer,

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Speaker 1: of course not. I'm an adult. Okay, I bet you

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Speaker 1: would like Mule. I'm gonna show you Mule during the

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Speaker 1: break and then we'll see if, um, if you can

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Speaker 1: get into it. It's really it's a market. Okay. I

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Speaker 1: aged out after Atari. How about that? The Goldman sacks

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Speaker 1: that I grew up with and I competed against was

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Speaker 1: investment banking and investment banking, and that was basically and

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Speaker 1: bankers and traders, bankers and traders. But since the Great

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Speaker 1: was running it then so John Whitehead, uh, it might

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Speaker 1: even been like yeah, probably Core designed for a while there.

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Speaker 1: I'm going back in the day. Um but they've always

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Speaker 1: been the big bank, the big trading desk. But really

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Speaker 1: since Great Financial Crisis, they've been really branching out into

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Speaker 1: more consumer businesses. And I saw them some news there

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Speaker 1: Goldman adds GM credit cards to its Marcus consumer business.

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Speaker 1: I just shook my head. But what happened to my

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Speaker 1: old Goldman sex? All right? Shanani Basket, Wall Street reporter

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Speaker 1: for Bloomberg News. She joins the shore. She follows the

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Speaker 1: Wall Street beat closely. Goldman's continuing to expand out its

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Speaker 1: consumer business, right, yeah, listen, this is the second big

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Speaker 1: partnership that Goldman is announcing here with General Motors. Of course,

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Speaker 1: we know they had that big relationship with Apple before.

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Speaker 1: What you're seeing here is Goldman start to branch into

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Speaker 1: new places, so card business. To what extent do they

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Speaker 1: have their ambition to launch their own credit card without

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Speaker 1: the co brand? And also what does General Motors give them?

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Speaker 1: General Motors already has billions of customers in their own

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Speaker 1: credit card business, so now by partner with Goldman, the

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Speaker 1: hope is they could really expand on the millions of

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Speaker 1: customers they've been able to amass with Apple. To your point,

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Speaker 1: General Motors was previews a slee An investment banking client,

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Speaker 1: which they then converted now into what you're what do

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Speaker 1: you not buy? It, Matt, is that you know what,

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Speaker 1: grass grows faster than Goldman Sacks business. This has been

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Speaker 1: years in the making, and they seem to have done

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Speaker 1: very little with Apple. I mean, they could take over

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Speaker 1: your life if they wanted to. Apple and Goldman Sacks

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Speaker 1: together you could do everything one stop shop, um from

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Speaker 1: savings to checking to investment, credit card, I mean, you

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Speaker 1: name it. They're just not doing it. Marcus has taken

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Speaker 1: forever to get off the ground. Forever and ever and

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Speaker 1: ever and ever we've been talking about it. You were

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Speaker 1: in high school to that that's not true. I mean,

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Speaker 1: in the last couple of years they have and remember

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Speaker 1: these are very highly regulated businesses. To your point, Goldman

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Speaker 1: makes a couple hundred million a quarter on their consumer

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Speaker 1: business Revolute and and twenty six they came out of

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Speaker 1: the gates running, ready to win, picking up customers by

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Speaker 1: the millions. And where are they based in Europe exactly.

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Speaker 1: So it's been a lot harder in the US for

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Speaker 1: the big banks to really get their technology in line,

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Speaker 1: which is what makes these partnerships and these efforts so interesting.

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Speaker 1: They just need to buy the technology. They already run

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Speaker 1: the government, right, so they don't need to worry about regulations.

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Speaker 1: The government buys them. Let's the idea of the government

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Speaker 1: allowing Goldman Sacks to buy like a Stripe, for example,

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Speaker 1: which is a lot more back end infrastructure. The biggest

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Speaker 1: payments companies in the US, Matt, the biggest tech companies

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Speaker 1: are all back end financial, back of credit cards. They're

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Speaker 1: not consumer facing businesses. All Right, we're gonna have the

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Speaker 1: Super Bowl this year where so Fi Stadium in Los Angeles.

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Speaker 1: So far as a brand, I know, so it's a

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Speaker 1: brand that Goldman Sacks knows. So to Matt's point, I'm

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Speaker 1: almost at the point by a former set Goldman Sacks banker.

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Speaker 1: There's a dollar say it's only ten billion dollar company,

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Speaker 1: so you buy that with a couple of partners pocket change.

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Speaker 1: But at least that gets you a brand awareness, because

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Speaker 1: I think the MAT's point, one of the things that

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Speaker 1: I'm surprised about is the brand value. The brand awareness

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Speaker 1: of Marcus, I think is still obscure to what you

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Speaker 1: can get from it. They just launched investing products. They

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Speaker 1: have had that savings product. This is the year that

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Speaker 1: they're probably going to open a checking account. Once they

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Speaker 1: open that checking account is when they can be a

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Speaker 1: real full scale bank for consumers in a bigger way.

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Speaker 1: But to your point, they are not that yet by

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Speaker 1: any means. I mean, remember when we all got so

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Speaker 1: excited about the Apple card before it came out. Oh

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Speaker 1: my god, Apple is going to release a credit card.

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Speaker 1: This is gonna change finance forever. I gotta get one.

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Speaker 1: Do you have an Apple card? Do you have an

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Speaker 1: Apple Card? No? Neither. When I use Apple Pay, neither

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Speaker 1: do I. Of course we all use Apple Pay. But look,

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Speaker 1: they could just do so much. The first site that

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Speaker 1: I made the Apple page paying my subway. Listen there.

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Speaker 1: The car business is a harder one too, because you

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Speaker 1: have a Chase Sapphire, or you have City Group, the

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Speaker 1: biggest card tossure in the world, your Barclays. You're competing,

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Speaker 1: and they both offer better rewards programs than Apple and

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Speaker 1: Goldman Sax. Why not, because it's hard to think of

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Speaker 1: offering a good rewards program. The numbers are there, all

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Speaker 1: you have to do is beat the numbers, and they

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Speaker 1: make a ton on interest rates already. They don't need

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Speaker 1: to worry about the padding they have that well. Actually,

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Speaker 1: the interest rates are not making anything off of right

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Speaker 1: now because people are paying back their cards. But this

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Speaker 1: is this is why this is now into this year

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Speaker 1: a big deal because people are starting to borrow again

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Speaker 1: at a much bigger scale than they're taking out any

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Speaker 1: other type of loan. And so to get into it

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Speaker 1: now is a good time. But yes, it is an

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Speaker 1: extraordinarily hard time to get in the card business because

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Speaker 1: people want rewards. They want them and all forms, shapes

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Speaker 1: and sizes for different products. They want them in crypto sometimes.

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Speaker 1: So if you can't give your client everything, then can

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Speaker 1: you compete in the space is a perfectly legitimate question.

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Speaker 1: All right. I think we're saying basically, this isn't a

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Speaker 1: typical Goldman business because it hasn't just got that that

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Speaker 1: traction that you would expect, uh, this Goldman effort to do.

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Speaker 1: But we'll see how they continue to invest in it,

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Speaker 1: and we'll see how it continues to grow into the business.

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Speaker 1: Shanelli Bassek, thanks for joining us Wall Street reporter for

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