1 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 2 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:18,080 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wisenthal and I'm Tracy Allowait. Tracy, did you 3 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:21,239 Speaker 1: like it the other day when you tweeted something and 4 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:23,280 Speaker 1: then I just stole your idea and wrote about it 5 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: in a newsletter. I wasn't actually trying to insinuate that, Joe. 6 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: I just thought it was funny. I thought it was 7 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:35,160 Speaker 1: a mind meld from like three thousand miles away. I'm 8 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:37,839 Speaker 1: not that arrogant that I would have assumed that you 9 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: had actually read my tweet, given that I think I 10 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:43,160 Speaker 1: tweeted it at like midnight your time in New York. 11 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 1: I do miss a lot of your tweets because we're 12 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 1: on such a different time zones. But for those who 13 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: are listening and don't know the context behind it, it 14 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: was a very interesting story in the crypto world this 15 00:00:54,880 --> 00:01:00,280 Speaker 1: week where a major exchange, major crypto exchange called ben Aunts, 16 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 1: they delisted a coin, causing the price of that coin 17 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:06,679 Speaker 1: to fall, and it raises all kinds of questions about 18 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 1: who really holds power in the crypto world and questions 19 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:16,120 Speaker 1: about decentralization and centralized because how decentralized can any anything be? 20 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 1: If one exchange can come along and say no, we're 21 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 1: not trading you anymore, and then the price plummets. Anyway, 22 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: Tracy tweeted about this conundrum. I had written about it 23 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:29,040 Speaker 1: in a newsletter, and I swear I didn't. I hadn't 24 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: seen Tracy's tweet, but she called me out for stealing 25 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:36,400 Speaker 1: her ideas. No, I didn't call you out. I complimented 26 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: you on having the exact same idea as me. No. Look, 27 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:43,039 Speaker 1: I think the reason why I was actually thinking about 28 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 1: it was because it reminded me of an old Odd 29 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 1: Thoughts episode, And I think it was actually the episode 30 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: where you were talking about your experience inventing a cryptocurrency 31 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 1: and what you learned from that whole uh saga, I guess. 32 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 1: And one of the things that you pointed out then 33 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: was you thought one of the reasons that the cryptocurrency 34 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 1: didn't actually take off was because it didn't get picked 35 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: up by any major exchanges, and without exchange participation, you 36 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: couldn't have pricing transparency and no one could really get 37 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 1: on board with it. So over and over and over again, 38 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 1: I think we've really seen the importance of exchanges when 39 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: it comes to crypto. For what is worth. My cryptocurrency 40 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: that I started with a friend several years ago failed 41 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 1: for many more reasons. Uh that just that many more, 42 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 1: including the fact that we never really took the project 43 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 1: that seriously to begin with, and it was kind of 44 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 1: a joke. Nonetheless, that was one of numerous issues that 45 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 1: we faced anyway, the power of exchanges. It just one 46 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: of obviously many interesting questions that arise in market structure, 47 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 1: and we've been talking a lot about market structure on 48 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:55,080 Speaker 1: the show recently. We recently did one about bond market structure. Obviously, 49 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 1: crypto market structure just like crypto itself in its very 50 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 1: early days. Nonetheless, people are trying to figure out what 51 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: it's going to look like. So I think this should 52 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 1: be an interesting conversation today because we are going to 53 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 1: be talking to someone in that field who's trying to 54 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: figure out and maybe we'll learn something about where the structure, 55 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 1: how market structure works today and then ultimately where it's 56 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 1: going in this space. All Right, I'm intrigued. Who do 57 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:22,640 Speaker 1: we have today? We're going to be talking to Alex 58 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:26,799 Speaker 1: Gordon Brander. He's the founder of Omega one. He's formerly 59 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 1: of Bridgewater. He's building a dark pool for crypto. So, Alex, 60 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: thank you very much for joining us, Good morning, thanks 61 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 1: for having me here today. What is Omega one and 62 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 1: how did you decide to launch it or what did 63 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 1: you see as the opportunity So Omega one, our first 64 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: offering is Omega Dock, which is a regulated institutional dock 65 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: pool for digital as steps. So let me just break 66 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: that down digital ass sets, meaning initially crypto and bitcoin, 67 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: but we also have our eye on the future where 68 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: we see stock spawns, real estate and currencies all moving 69 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 1: over into this digital environment. Dark pool we can talk 70 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 1: a bit more about for your listeners that don't know, 71 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: but as a particular kind of market microstructure or trading 72 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 1: venue that allows large orders to be placed in volatile 73 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:17,679 Speaker 1: markets without moving the markets and brings stability to market 74 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:21,679 Speaker 1: places and then regulated obviously we'll talk about what that means. 75 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:26,479 Speaker 1: So how did I come about doing this? So when 76 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:30,159 Speaker 1: I was at Bridgewater, I had the job of figuring 77 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 1: out how to build a next generation trading platform that 78 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 1: allowed very very large volumes of f X to get 79 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,600 Speaker 1: traded in a way they didn't push the market around. 80 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:46,039 Speaker 1: When I started first really getting deep into crypto in 81 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 1: and made small, little trades of a few thousand dollars 82 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 1: on exchanges. I was shocked to see the same kind 83 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:56,799 Speaker 1: of behavior that I was seeing when we were moving 84 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: around billions of dollars in FX and allies that the 85 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 1: market microstructures in crypto needed a lot of help to 86 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:06,840 Speaker 1: be able to build the kind of liquidity that was 87 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 1: required to then have this sort of flow of money 88 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: from the old world into the new. So that that's 89 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 1: what got me going. So, Alex, can you talk to 90 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:19,159 Speaker 1: us a little bit more about why the crypto market 91 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 1: in its current existence or its current form is actually 92 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 1: a liquid because we hear all these stories about, you know, 93 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:30,839 Speaker 1: even small trades having an outsized impact on the market, 94 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:34,599 Speaker 1: But we also hear a lot about bitcoin whales, people 95 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:37,600 Speaker 1: with big positions or who make big trades who are 96 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:40,920 Speaker 1: able to really really move the market. Why is does 97 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 1: this seem to be such a problem in crypto? So 98 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:49,840 Speaker 1: I think there's probably three different causes root causes behind that. 99 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: One is simply immaturity that you know, markets are ecosystems, 100 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,720 Speaker 1: and if you leave the ecosystem for a while, different 101 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:02,719 Speaker 1: kinds of sort of herbivores and carnivores and different kinds 102 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 1: of beasts enter the ecosystem and end up creating this 103 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:10,479 Speaker 1: sort of efficient landscape of trading, and in crypto, they 104 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: just hasn't been that long for you know, the agency 105 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:17,719 Speaker 1: brokers and market makers and OTC desk and all these 106 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: to really develop the tight web of inter relationships that 107 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: they have in other markets. So there's a there's an 108 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 1: immaturity piece. There's also, i think a more interesting thing, 109 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 1: which is crypto as a market that started off in 110 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 1: the retail world, and most of all the other asset 111 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:38,479 Speaker 1: classes that we know started institutional and moved retail, and 112 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 1: this thing started retail and at a time when there's 113 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 1: a really low barrier to entry for creating exchanges and 114 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: platforms that also never existed in previous asset classes. And 115 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: you have a lot of people who made a bunch 116 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: of money from being early adopters who then had, you know, 117 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: the confidence to start up venues. So you have a 118 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 1: very road set of people coming from very different places 119 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:07,679 Speaker 1: entering in and becoming players in this market. Again, so 120 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: that's just a different kind of starting point than in 121 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: than in traditional assets. And the third main thing is 122 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 1: regulation and compliance, which is what causes a lot of 123 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: harmonization in the other markets. So here's what my initial thought. 124 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 1: And obviously we can't talk about Omega one and specifically 125 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 1: how you're trying to solve this problem. But when I 126 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 1: hear like about, okay, there's going to be a dark 127 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: pool for crypto, my first thought is, isn't this kind 128 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: of premature because have we still even gotten to the 129 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 1: stage where we know institutions actually have any interest in 130 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 1: this at all, let alone some sort of like sophisticated 131 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 1: modern trading environment that we think is applicable to much 132 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: bigger markets. I would turn that around and say that 133 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: a lot of the larger institutions that we talked to 134 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 1: have a great deal of interest and entering the markets, 135 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 1: and then are held back by the lack of regulatory, compliant, 136 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 1: secure and liquid solutions to trade on. So it's a 137 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 1: little bit of a chicken egg problem here. It's also 138 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 1: the case that although everyone says price action doesn't matter, 139 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 1: you know, there are a lot of people who were 140 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:23,239 Speaker 1: pushing into the marketplace who at least probably held back 141 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: on pushing their bosses and compliance departments for approval while 142 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 1: the while the price was falling like a knife last year. 143 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 1: And I feel like we've hit the floor, and we're 144 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 1: turning on that front, and that is going to make 145 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 1: a difference to institutional interest because you know, the institutions 146 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: are primarily driven by the family offices and you know 147 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 1: an asset owners who are seeing the price rises and 148 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 1: now again wanting to get back into the asset class. 149 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 1: So when I hear dark pool for crypto, I have 150 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 1: a slightly different initial reaction, which is if you think 151 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 1: that one of the issues are one of the major 152 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 1: criticisms of the crypto market as it exists right now 153 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 1: is a lack of transparency. You know, people talk about 154 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:07,680 Speaker 1: the sort of murky world of crypto trading and various 155 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: exchanges um that possibly engage in uh sort of sketchy practices, 156 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 1: maybe order inflation, that sort of thing. And then you 157 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 1: think about dark pools, which you know it's died down 158 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 1: a little bit, but at one point a few years ago, 159 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:25,559 Speaker 1: dark pools had a terrible reputation and we're sort of 160 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: viewed again as these murky private exchanges where no one 161 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 1: knew what was going on and there was all this 162 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 1: predatory pricing. Michael Lewis basically wrote an entire book about this. 163 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:41,320 Speaker 1: How are dark pools going to benefit the crypto market, 164 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 1: given that one of the major criticisms has actually been 165 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: a lack of transparency. That's a great question, and I 166 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 1: think what we need to do to answer that is 167 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 1: look at what he is dark and what isn't. So 168 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 1: there's you know, it's it's a little bit cheesy, but 169 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 1: we use the phrase we're bringing dark pools into the 170 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:03,080 Speaker 1: light because what we're actually doing is, on the one hand, 171 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:06,440 Speaker 1: we're bringing dark pools into the crypto asset class. On 172 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 1: the other hand, we're bringing some technologies from crypto and 173 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:14,319 Speaker 1: blockchain into dark pools that actually increase the transparency. So 174 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:19,079 Speaker 1: what we see in you know, the actual blockchain transactions 175 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 1: and more transparent than anything else. We can all see 176 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:24,560 Speaker 1: what all of the bitcoin transactions are. It's what's going 177 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: on off chain in the sort of the murky world 178 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 1: of the exchanges and bots, which agree is, you know, 179 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: there are some real issues there. So we have one 180 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 1: major innovation that we have that no dark pool inequities has, 181 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 1: which is that the pricing of access to liquidity on 182 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 1: the dark pool is going to be mediated by a 183 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 1: token that is public, clear and transparent. So Bart Chiltern, 184 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: who's one of our Advisors has been one of the 185 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:55,839 Speaker 1: guys who's railed against the sort of h f T 186 00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 1: dark pool alliances where you know, there's these under the 187 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:03,679 Speaker 1: table contracts where high frequency trading firms get their own 188 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 1: order types and essentially get to predate on other clients 189 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 1: the dark pools in a non transparent way. All of 190 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 1: our market microstructure is public, transparent, is going to be audited. 191 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 1: We're working on a big four audit contracts, so actually 192 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 1: the pricing, the mechanics, and then even the trades afterwards 193 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:24,959 Speaker 1: are going to be printed onto a blockchain. So we're 194 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 1: bringing a lot of transparency. So what is the ent 195 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:31,679 Speaker 1: what's the dark part? So the dark part is if 196 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 1: you right now want to buy ten million dollars a 197 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: bitcoin and you announce that intention to the marketplace, you're 198 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 1: going to have your face ripped off because you go 199 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:43,080 Speaker 1: and you put that on an order and put that 200 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:45,960 Speaker 1: order on exchange and just rest everyone's going to see 201 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: that order and the price is going to move away 202 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 1: from you. God help you actually try to buy that 203 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 1: ten million dollars a bitcoin on the marketplace, you're going 204 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:55,839 Speaker 1: to eat up liquidity that's going to move the market. 205 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 1: Then all the bots are going to get freaked out, 206 00:11:57,920 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 1: and by the time you bought your ten million dollars, 207 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:03,959 Speaker 1: the prices move like five seven percent. You've paid basically 208 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:06,680 Speaker 1: three or four percent in slippage costs, and the fact 209 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:09,079 Speaker 1: that you paid ten basis points or twenty basis points 210 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 1: and fees on the exchange, you're paying eighty times that 211 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 1: much in terms of how much you're moving the market. 212 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 1: So that's the key thing. But a dark pool changes 213 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:20,680 Speaker 1: is it allows you to put that ten million dollar 214 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:23,719 Speaker 1: ordering in a discrete way and it gets done at 215 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 1: the market mid price, and every trade gets done at 216 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 1: the mid rather than moving out. No I mean, I mean, 217 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: you're you're plausing because people at home can't see it. 218 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:35,440 Speaker 1: But I'm making a weird of making like a skeptical phase. 219 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 1: I'm just still trying to figure out how fundamentally the 220 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 1: ten million dollar purchase of let's say it's a bitcoin, 221 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: even if done on a dark pool or in a 222 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:50,440 Speaker 1: dark pool, doesn't have the same issue run into the 223 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 1: same issue of eating up the existing liquidity because in 224 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 1: the end, you know, there's only so much people at 225 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 1: any given moment are selling it x Right, maybe this 226 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 1: is a dumb guy I'm just like, if everyone is 227 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:09,080 Speaker 1: buying and nobody is selling, a dark pool isn't going 228 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 1: to magically create sellers. But if there are people who 229 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 1: have buying intentions that they don't want to reveal because 230 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 1: they're afraid they'll move the market away from them, and 231 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: people have selling intentions they don't want to reveal, and 232 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:24,679 Speaker 1: they're both nibbling around the edges, and we give an 233 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:27,080 Speaker 1: opportunity for them to meet because they know they're going 234 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:30,200 Speaker 1: to meet at the fair market mid price, that enables 235 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:33,079 Speaker 1: both of them to come out. Now, if twice as 236 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 1: many people are buying as are selling, the price is 237 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 1: still going to be moving up in the marketplace, and 238 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 1: you know, the sellers are all going to get fed 239 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 1: on on our side, and the buyers are still gonna 240 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 1: be waiting for more sellers. But it's a it still 241 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 1: has a stabilizing action on the market compared to just 242 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 1: putting that order on analytics change. There's a key concept here, 243 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: which is when I say the mid price, what do 244 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 1: we mean by that? Who's mid price? So any dark 245 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:07,319 Speaker 1: pool needs to have an external price reference set because 246 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 1: it's not doing the price discovery with the lit orders, 247 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:14,439 Speaker 1: So you know where do we get that external price from? 248 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 1: And that's a that's a really interesting question to dig into. 249 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 1: Now we've looked at what the top fifty exchanges. We 250 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 1: looked at that bit wise report about how much of 251 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: the exchange volume was faked, and that was roughly in 252 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 1: line with our own analysis on this. So when you 253 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 1: look at the vast wealth of lit exchanges, you say, 254 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 1: where can we actually get a trustable price from. There's 255 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 1: actually only a few of those LIT exchanges that you know, 256 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 1: we feel are trustable for providing a mid price. So 257 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: what we're doing is actually UM working with a partner 258 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 1: to get pricing from all of the OTC in the 259 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 1: market maker desks, so we have a true price that 260 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: represents the broad set of liquidity in the whole bitcoin market. 261 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 1: And once that price is clear and being sort of 262 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 1: communicated out on the exchange and just inviting people to 263 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 1: meet at that midpoint, that will have an anchoring, stabilizing 264 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 1: effect on the overall marketplace. That's really interesting out of curiosity, 265 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: how different is that sort of true mid price to 266 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: some of the prices being reported on the exchanges, Like 267 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 1: how much of a gap is there between the two 268 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: that you've seen so far. Yeah, I mean that's a 269 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 1: great question. If you look at the equity dark pools, 270 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: it's really simple. There's a national best bid, there's a 271 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: national best offer, and the dark pool goes and mids 272 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 1: between the two of those, and there's you know, fiber 273 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 1: optic pipes and microwaves wiring everything together and it's all 274 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 1: clean and in crypto. You can see fifty dollar differences 275 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 1: between the mid of the order books on some of 276 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: these exchanges, and so you occasionally have definitely edged discrepancies 277 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 1: with wanted to exchanges that can be as much as 278 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 1: fifty or hundred bucks from what is sort of the 279 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: true weighted mid price. Those often don't tend to be 280 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: really there if you try to trade those orders, or 281 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 1: there's just kind of a few dollars there and everything fades. 282 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 1: But the data field, the market data field, is much 283 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: fuzzier and crypto than it is in FX or equities. So, 284 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: as you mentioned um and really with all kinds of networks, 285 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: but there's a chicken and egg problem with all this stuff. 286 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 1: How do you you know, ultimately you can have great technology, 287 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 1: but if nobody shows up to your exchange, then there 288 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 1: isn't going to be a whole lot of liquidity, even 289 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 1: in the best scenarios. So how do you plan to 290 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: solve that? Because there's a lot of people out there 291 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 1: trying to work on the institutional aspect of crypto in 292 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:10,680 Speaker 1: one way or another, whether it's on custodio solutions or exchanges, 293 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 1: and you have the legacy it's funny to call them legacy, 294 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 1: but you know the the legacy players like coin base, 295 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:23,160 Speaker 1: so they're trying to make a big push into institutional trading. 296 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 1: How do you plan it can only it can only 297 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 1: be so fragmented before there's no liquidity anywhere, Someone or 298 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 1: a few players have to really dominate. So how do 299 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:39,359 Speaker 1: you convince different entities of which there still aren't very many, 300 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 1: to coalesce around your platform. Number One, there's a minimum 301 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 1: ba of the regulatory and security and all of those 302 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: things the one needs to have to be entering into 303 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 1: that conversation. And once you actually really look away that 304 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 1: minimum barries, you've cut yourself down to a handful of players, 305 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 1: most of you don't even have product out that can 306 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 1: operate at that level. And then from that point onwards, 307 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: there's two things, at least from how we look at it. 308 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:10,639 Speaker 1: One is we have a unique offering that is not 309 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 1: actually competitive to the likes of a coin base or 310 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 1: a backed or an aeros x or an el max. 311 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 1: We're actually talking to those parties because each of them 312 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 1: will have excess beard or awful liquidity, and they may 313 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 1: have market making operations or OTC desks that will want 314 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 1: to have the opportunity to access mid price liquidity through 315 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: through our platform. So one having a different offering that 316 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:41,440 Speaker 1: actually offers something to all of those players as well 317 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 1: as to the end institutions. Two by kind of being 318 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 1: adults and professionals, and that filters things down some I 319 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:49,679 Speaker 1: hate to say, although not as much as it used to. 320 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 1: And then thirdly, and this is where it's a it's 321 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 1: a little bit more creative. We are. We have a 322 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 1: cryptocurrency token ourselves, and that token is something that we've 323 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:06,119 Speaker 1: designed to um build the network effects on the platform, 324 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:10,360 Speaker 1: to reward people for early participation, and to kind of 325 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:15,199 Speaker 1: price the access to liquidity on the platform. So you know, 326 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: this is something that the business isn't sort of built 327 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:22,439 Speaker 1: around it. A lot of crypto tokens rely on the 328 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 1: token itself to create the network effects, but it's kind 329 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:29,119 Speaker 1: of an accelerant for those network effects. So, Alex, I'm 330 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:34,159 Speaker 1: curious how you make decisions about which cryptocurrencies or assets 331 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:38,439 Speaker 1: to actually provide trading for on your platform. And this 332 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 1: sort of touches a little bit on Joe's totally original 333 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:47,920 Speaker 1: observation about Bitcoin SV, this sort of offshoot of bitcoin 334 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:53,359 Speaker 1: cash um that Finance decided to delist recently. You know, 335 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 1: they said they weren't comfortable with the cryptocurrency for various reasons. 336 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 1: And again, I wonder like what sort of factor as 337 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,880 Speaker 1: would go into your decision making process about which crypto 338 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:06,679 Speaker 1: or what type of crypto trading to provide. So the 339 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 1: first thing is, we're only going to be offering where 340 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 1: there's already sufficient liquidity in the marketplace for our offering 341 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 1: to make sense. So you know, we're starting off with 342 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 1: bitcoin only when we launch, and we're going to be 343 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:25,439 Speaker 1: doing probably not more than the top ten cryptos for 344 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: the foreseeable future. You know, we're not the folks who 345 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:33,159 Speaker 1: list two hundred and fifty four hundred different coins. Secondly, 346 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:36,439 Speaker 1: the Bermuda Monetary Authority, it is probably a good moment 347 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 1: to just talk about Bermuda here. So the Bermuda Montory 348 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 1: Authority is and our view the leading jurisdiction for regulating 349 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 1: digital assets, and they have a pretty clear framework for 350 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 1: looking at what coins can be listed on a registered exchange. 351 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:57,400 Speaker 1: For instance, we're steering clear privacy coins because that makes 352 00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 1: it very hard for us to do the A M 353 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:01,959 Speaker 1: L K ye see that we need to do. You know, 354 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:04,919 Speaker 1: there are there are coins which have reputational issues that 355 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 1: we talked to the to the b m A about. 356 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 1: Uh so where do you see this all going? And 357 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 1: you mentioned at the beginning that you're gonna start with 358 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:16,400 Speaker 1: sort of what we know is cryptocurrencies, bitcoin and so on, 359 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 1: but then you also mentioned like other types of assets 360 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,679 Speaker 1: that will be like traded as digital currencies. And I 361 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 1: hear people talk about this stuff and the idea of 362 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 1: like token izing equity or token izing bons or real 363 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:34,199 Speaker 1: estate and being some sort of crypto token, and I 364 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:38,879 Speaker 1: still don't understand why that is an improvement or why 365 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,479 Speaker 1: that is a why that would represent an innovation. So 366 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:45,359 Speaker 1: I'm curious in your view, like what the roadmap for 367 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 1: all this in terms of what actually is going to 368 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 1: be traded in this way. So yes, I do think 369 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,400 Speaker 1: that all asset classes are going to be traded on 370 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:59,640 Speaker 1: a blockchain, as digital assets, and that the efficiency gains 371 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 1: of near immediate settlement and all of the interoperability of 372 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 1: blockchains will make a difference. They're not making enough of 373 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: the difference today to overwhelm the liquidity barriers and other issues. 374 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 1: But where is it gonna go? Like, I just want 375 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 1: to push it back or my my when you say 376 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 1: that these efficiency gains, because we've had several discussions with people, 377 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 1: and one of the consistent themes when we talk about 378 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 1: crypto currencies or blockchain whatever is that it's not efficient, 379 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:33,199 Speaker 1: that's actually highly inefficient, and that traditional databases are far faster, 380 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:37,080 Speaker 1: are far less computationally intensive, are far less energy intensive, 381 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:44,200 Speaker 1: and that blockchains are basically these very clugi costly systems 382 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:47,160 Speaker 1: that are good for a narrow purpose. So you when 383 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 1: you talk about efficiency gains and those efficiency gains driving 384 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 1: more assets to be traded in this manner, that's like 385 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: the part I'm struggling to understand. So the efficiency is 386 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 1: absolutely not but it's more computationally efficient than doing things 387 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 1: in a centralized way. The efficiency comes from the one 388 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:09,959 Speaker 1: thing that blockchains are good at, which is giving everybody 389 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:13,119 Speaker 1: around the world or everybody in the network the same 390 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 1: picture of what's going on consistently and coherently across the 391 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:21,119 Speaker 1: whole network. So when you look at equity trading, for instance, 392 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:26,160 Speaker 1: that the nanosecond level trading of equities is highly efficient. 393 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,680 Speaker 1: You're not going to replace that by making it be 394 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,199 Speaker 1: traded on a blockchain. But the back end of that 395 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: equity trading there's still you know, stock certificates in dtc C. 396 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 1: There are cases you see where companies have a hundred 397 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 1: and five percent proxies because nobody is adding up the 398 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 1: shareholding of the companies. There's a huge amount of inefficiency 399 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:51,160 Speaker 1: in the layers underneath trading, which is why it still 400 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:54,920 Speaker 1: takes two or three days to even settle transactions, even 401 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 1: though the trades are taking place in nanoseconds. So it's 402 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:03,159 Speaker 1: more in having a coherent global ledger of who owns 403 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:07,200 Speaker 1: what that everyone can trust, which, especially in emerging markets 404 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 1: where there isn't even good title to land and things, 405 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 1: and you know, there's a lot of the world's population 406 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 1: who don't even have identity in the traditional way, you 407 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,679 Speaker 1: can make massive differences on that level. And then in 408 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 1: the more sort of industrialized capital markets, it's about having 409 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 1: a clear common settlement layer and then building a new 410 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 1: trade layer on top of that. Well, Alex Gilordan Brander 411 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 1: really appreciate you coming on. Fascinating and I'm really looking 412 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,119 Speaker 1: forward to watching where Omega one goes and just the 413 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 1: general landscape because obviously, like since the end of ten 414 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,200 Speaker 1: when the bubble peak, there was like so much hype 415 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 1: and enthusiasm about the institutional money coming in and then 416 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 1: the market flopped, and I'm still like sort of curious 417 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 1: where it's all happening. So we'll see if it eventually arrives. Absolutely, 418 00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: I mean it's um, it's definitely different being a crypt 419 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 1: a company in winter and it was in summer. I 420 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:05,920 Speaker 1: think shoots of spring are coming through right now, and 421 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 1: the good news is it's cleared a lot of the 422 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:12,159 Speaker 1: noise and scanners and hucksters out of the space and 423 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 1: you know, a strong survive. All right, Well, we'll have 424 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 1: you back in a couple of years and we'll see 425 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:32,959 Speaker 1: how it all I've developed. Thank you very much, Thank you, Tracy. 426 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 1: I'm really enjoying all of the market structure talk that 427 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:40,160 Speaker 1: we've been doing on I'm serious, No, I am too, 428 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,959 Speaker 1: uh corporate bomb, market structure and now a crypto structure. 429 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 1: It's great. I did think. I mean, it's slightly ironic 430 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 1: Alex's last point about green shoots coming through now. And 431 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:54,119 Speaker 1: you know, one of the things that seems to have 432 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 1: the crypto community feeling a bit better lately is the 433 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 1: fact that bitcoin has popped for five thousand dollars per 434 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:05,879 Speaker 1: coin once again. But the irony comes through that a 435 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 1: lot of people are saying that that pop was actually 436 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 1: because of one trade that probably moved the entire market. 437 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 1: So the illiquidity in this one instance seems to actually 438 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 1: have benefited the crypto market. And I keep thinking, you know, 439 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 1: going back to my initial question to Alex, because still, 440 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,639 Speaker 1: like when I hear like dark pools for crypto, like 441 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 1: this is such a new space, Like isn't there still 442 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 1: just an issue of anyone even like caring about this 443 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 1: or being sure that this will be around. But I guess, 444 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 1: like ultimately it is a chicken egg thing, and you 445 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,320 Speaker 1: know you can't have uh, you know, institutions aren't going 446 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 1: to be interested in entering the space unless they're good tools. 447 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 1: And the good tools won't be used unless there's actual 448 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: institutional interest. So someone's got to build this stuff. If 449 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:54,880 Speaker 1: you build it, they might come. I guess we only 450 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 1: have to wait. Uh, they might a couple of years 451 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 1: to find out. This has been another episode of the 452 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 1: Odd Thoughts Podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me 453 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 1: on Twitter at Tracy Alloway. And I'm Joe wisn'hal. You 454 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 1: can follow me on Twitter at The Stalwart and follow 455 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,480 Speaker 1: Alex on Twitter at Alex Omega One Project. And you 456 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 1: should follow our producer on Twitter. He's toe for four heads. 457 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,680 Speaker 1: He's at four heads t uh. And I want to 458 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:24,439 Speaker 1: thank our new producer who will be taking over the reins, 459 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,719 Speaker 1: Laura Carlson. She's on Twitter at Laura M. Carlson. And 460 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:32,440 Speaker 1: don't forget to follow Bloomberg's head of podcast, Francesca Levie 461 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,439 Speaker 1: at Francesca Today. Thanks for listening.