Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. I don't just stories of things we simply
Speaker 1: don't know the answer too. Hi. There, Welcome to another
Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Sideways. I'm Joe, joined as always by
Speaker 1: my lovely co host and Steve and your normal co
Speaker 1: host Steve's that was very nice. Sorry, yeah, I'm lovely. Yeah. Alright,
Speaker 1: so we're gonna and we're gonna solve another cool mystery
Speaker 1: this week. Our mystery um this week is set in
Speaker 1: the town of Ketty, California, And of course we're talking
Speaker 1: about the Ketty UFO incident. Don't get people's hopes now,
Speaker 1: I know no UFOs and Ketty and there might have
Speaker 1: been I don't know, but just a brief warning. This
Speaker 1: is this is about multiple murder mystery and it's kind
Speaker 1: of gruesome. Yeah. Yeah, it's not nice. I was not
Speaker 1: excited doing the research. Yeah, I don't want to. You
Speaker 1: should have watched the documentary. Na, did you read the
Speaker 1: autopsy reports? Maybe was it in the research? Yeah? Then yes,
Speaker 1: I don't blame you for skipping them. At least there
Speaker 1: are no photos, although you know it's funny. No, go ahead,
Speaker 1: I'm talking to go off on that rabbit hole. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: so we're talking about the kitty murders. Yes, famous kiddy
Speaker 1: murders from one. But first I want to give a
Speaker 1: shout out to our listener, Clarissa. Hello Clarissa. Sorry Clarissa.
Speaker 1: I'm sure you get that a lot, so sorry. But anyway,
Speaker 1: Actually I found this one on my own like a
Speaker 1: while back, and as I was researching it for this
Speaker 1: week's episode, I went through the listeners suggestions and discovered
Speaker 1: the guests actually somebody had suggested it, so you get
Speaker 1: to have credit where credits do indeed. So yeah, thanks Clarissa. Okay,
Speaker 1: let's talk about Ketty briefly. So, Kenny, California is a
Speaker 1: very small town. It's getting smaller. It's yeah. Population and yeah,
Speaker 1: population in the year two thousand was nineties six. Population
Speaker 1: in two thousand ten was sixty six. That's almost like
Speaker 1: wag entire O. I know. It's uh. It started out
Speaker 1: actually it's kind of successful. When it was first founded,
Speaker 1: I believe in nineteen ten, it was a kind of
Speaker 1: a waypoint on the rail line up to you seventy
Speaker 1: or somewhere, or off to Utah. But and so there
Speaker 1: was a nice little resort there and it was a
Speaker 1: pleasant little place, nice scenery, but it had followed on
Speaker 1: hard times by the time and by the time our
Speaker 1: mystery had occurred and it was not really so much
Speaker 1: a resort town anymore. There were still all these cabins
Speaker 1: in the resort. The guy, but the guy who bought
Speaker 1: the resort owned it. Tourists were coming there, so he
Speaker 1: wounded up renting the cabins out his low income housing. Well,
Speaker 1: it was nice of him, pad mortgage. Yeah. Yeah, when
Speaker 1: you find tennants where you can find tennants, yeah, but
Speaker 1: then have to be low income housing. So we're so
Speaker 1: people have an idea. You know, Caddy is close to
Speaker 1: what major town for people to know, it's about ninety
Speaker 1: miles northwest of Reno, about about eighty miles east of
Speaker 1: Red Bluff, California, About sixty miles maybe northeast of Chico, California. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, the whole areas in National Forest that's
Speaker 1: in the middle of the what what national Forests? I
Speaker 1: think it's the National Forest because it's in Pluis County.
Speaker 1: That would make Yeah, you know that area of California
Speaker 1: is really beautiful to see. Eras are just really nice. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: have you ever gone on any of those? Uh? I mean,
Speaker 1: obviously I've never been to this particular town, but have
Speaker 1: you ever driven through some of that area. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: a slow drive, but it's not because it's windy roads.
Speaker 1: It's because you want to take a look around. Yeah,
Speaker 1: except you don't want to stop in Kitty. I know,
Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah, our mystery begins in Ketty, in
Speaker 1: Cabin twenty eight of the resort, which is, of course
Speaker 1: not not really a resort anymore. Cabin was being rented
Speaker 1: to Glenness Sharp, who went by the name of Sue
Speaker 1: and her five kids, Uh, John, Sheila, Tina, Ricky and Gregg.
Speaker 1: She had a lot of kids, so John, John was fifteen,
Speaker 1: Sheila was seventeen, Tina was twelve, and the youngest were
Speaker 1: Ricky and Gregg. They were ten and five. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: she was did you say she was thirty six? He
Speaker 1: was yet six. That's that's a passel of kids in
Speaker 1: a short amount of time. She cracked out a bunch
Speaker 1: of them. She had moved into that cabin cay in
Speaker 1: November nineteen eighties, so they had been living there that
Speaker 1: long really, maybe half a year. On the night of
Speaker 1: April eleventh, one faithful night, Sheila, Sheila was the fourteen
Speaker 1: year old daughter on seventeen. You're right, okay, yeah, John
Speaker 1: was fourteen. You're right, alright, alr right. The episode where
Speaker 1: I get correct you serves me right. So Sheila goes
Speaker 1: next door to cabin twenty seven for a sleepover with
Speaker 1: a friend. And Justin Easton, who lived in Cabin twenty six,
Speaker 1: was friends with the two youngest boys, so he was
Speaker 1: over at their place. Were a sleepover and this was
Speaker 1: a Saturday night. Yeah, so sleepovers on a weekend makes sense. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I remembered you being a weekend. I just couldn't been
Speaker 1: one day. Yeah, it was a Saturday. And here's a
Speaker 1: fun fact to Justin Easton was the steps of one
Speaker 1: of the suspects for the murder. So those three boys,
Speaker 1: the youngest ones, went to bed in the back bedroom
Speaker 1: at some undetermined time. Then John Sharp, he was a
Speaker 1: fifteen year old, spent most of the day hanging with
Speaker 1: a friend named Dana Wingate in a town called Quincy,
Speaker 1: which is seven miles south of Kenny, And they were
Speaker 1: seen on Highway seventy apparently by a couple who was
Speaker 1: driving on the highway. Why they didn't stop and pick
Speaker 1: them up, I don't know they were. They were hitchhiking
Speaker 1: back to Ketty from Quincy, and they were seen between
Speaker 1: nine and ten pm, although I've seen another timeline that
Speaker 1: has some spotted on the highway at eleven pm, so
Speaker 1: there's a little bit of a conflict there. Well. And
Speaker 1: I know that those boys had been at at Dana's
Speaker 1: house and had asked to go if they could could
Speaker 1: stay over at at Johnny's Johnny's house, and one of
Speaker 1: the stipulations was, yeah, you're welcome to go as long
Speaker 1: as you can get a ride, you don't hitchhike, and
Speaker 1: oh yeah, we want hitchhike, don't worry, no big deal.
Speaker 1: And obviously they totally did it anyway, which is a
Speaker 1: teenage boy thing to do. Yeah, it is definitely. I'm
Speaker 1: not sure what it was like. I mean, I hitched
Speaker 1: hike a lot when I was not a lot, actually,
Speaker 1: but I hitchhike some when I was a teenager, and
Speaker 1: it was a lot easier to get rides back in
Speaker 1: those days. But then then we had a fewers here
Speaker 1: and there, and suddenly people are not really into picking
Speaker 1: up hitchhickers anymore. Yeah, I've never picked up a hitchhike,
Speaker 1: nor have I ever hitchhiked. Ever, I haven't hitchhiked. But
Speaker 1: I grew up in a really small town where you
Speaker 1: knew most of the guys, and it was typically guys,
Speaker 1: most of the guys you saw walking down the street.
Speaker 1: So you'd be driving down, Oh there's Mark. Let me
Speaker 1: pull over and give Mark a ride, and so Mark
Speaker 1: would come running the car. Hey, thanks buddy, and you
Speaker 1: give Mark a ride at least as far as you
Speaker 1: were going. I wouldn't go out of my way, but hey,
Speaker 1: I can get you here and then you're on your
Speaker 1: own from there and save them ten miles. They're happy,
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, sure, yeah, Well the way back to these
Speaker 1: guys they so Dana, as you said, it was planning
Speaker 1: on spending the night at Cabin twenty eight, and which
Speaker 1: bad idea, Dana, really bad idea. It's it's unclear when
Speaker 1: they arrived. Some people of hypothesized that perhaps the crime
Speaker 1: was already underway when they showed up and just they're
Speaker 1: bad luck, really bad timing on their part. Have people
Speaker 1: theorized that they brought the crime with them, Yeah, actually,
Speaker 1: and that is that's definitely one of the possibilities I
Speaker 1: would consider. Yeah, yeah, you get picked up by a Mr.
Speaker 1: Psycho Killer. Yeah, and and comes inside with you and yeah,
Speaker 1: can I come? Can I use your bathroom? You too?
Speaker 1: You too have been alluding to what's going on, and
Speaker 1: our listeners don't know what's going on. We gotta tell
Speaker 1: you about what happened here, because so far we've just
Speaker 1: board them with information people that don't matter. That's fair. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Dan's Danni is coming home with Johnny Sharp and they're
Speaker 1: gonna He's going to spend the night there. They've got
Speaker 1: to sleep over in the back bedroom, three little three
Speaker 1: young boys back. They're already gone to bed. Um Sue
Speaker 1: Sharp and her daughter Tina, who's twelve, are not yet asleep.
Speaker 1: And Tina might have been asleep, I'm not sure, but
Speaker 1: more about that in a second. On the morning of
Speaker 1: April twelve, Sheila Sharp, who remember what next door for
Speaker 1: a sleepover. She came home about eight am and discovered
Speaker 1: that she was an orphan. Of course, yeah, yeah, Actually
Speaker 1: it turns out she really wasn't an orphan. I checked,
Speaker 1: and actually she had her father still living, and so
Speaker 1: they're surviving. Sharp children want to live with the father,
Speaker 1: so that's good. So she wasn't really an orphan. And
Speaker 1: I just couldn't resist, so Sue her son, Johnny Sharp
Speaker 1: and the friend Dana Wingate had all been bludgeoned and
Speaker 1: stabbed to death. Yeah, really horrible, bloody crime. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: and Tina Sharp was missing. Tina sharpwell, girl girl was gone. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The bodies have been tired up with, tied up with
Speaker 1: with white adhesive tape, probably medical tape, and also electrical
Speaker 1: wire extension chords. Basically yeah, and um, and then they
Speaker 1: were like, you know, beaten to death with with a
Speaker 1: hammer and then stabbed death. Amazingly, the three young boys
Speaker 1: in the back bedroom were untouched and it appeared that
Speaker 1: they they slept through the whole thing, although it's hard
Speaker 1: to imagine exactly how they could have done that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I I have run through my head a million scenarios
Speaker 1: on how that would have happened, and as if yet
Speaker 1: I can't figure out a way. Well, you know, here's
Speaker 1: the thing about kids, particularly kids of that age, is
Speaker 1: when they sleep, they sleep, particularly if they've been raised
Speaker 1: and maybe uh kind of more difficult home life environment.
Speaker 1: You know, if you're trained from a child as a
Speaker 1: baby to sleep through stuff, which is what you do
Speaker 1: with babies, because you have to because you have to
Speaker 1: get stuff done while they're sleeping. They can pretty much
Speaker 1: sleep usually, you know, five to ten year olds can
Speaker 1: sleep through you know, at least vacuuming and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: And you know, unless there it's possible that these murders
Speaker 1: were carried out without a whole lot of screaming. Given
Speaker 1: some of the injuries, it's possible that there wasn't actual screaming.
Speaker 1: And then you know, all the rest of the noises
Speaker 1: could have been relatively quiet. Well, and if if there's
Speaker 1: a TV on and you're used to hear in the TV,
Speaker 1: then in your little kid brain that all melts together.
Speaker 1: I mean, I I know that I slept through earthquakes
Speaker 1: as a kid. I once rolled out of the top
Speaker 1: bunk of a bunk bed as a kid in my
Speaker 1: sleep and didn't wake up, so I know the kids can. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well that that tells you a lot about me now,
Speaker 1: because I'm pretty sure I laid it on my head.
Speaker 1: But no, I mean that that does explain it. But
Speaker 1: the other thing is that, you know, the only thing
Speaker 1: that that I could figure out how these boys could
Speaker 1: have slept through it, if indeed they did, is that
Speaker 1: Sue she had I think was her underwear and a
Speaker 1: rag crammed in her mouth as a gag. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: was like a blue bandana, yeah, which and it was
Speaker 1: like the blue bandanna was which was jammed into her
Speaker 1: mouth fairly deep, yea. And that secured with adhesive tape
Speaker 1: and then and then like women's underwear wrapped around that.
Speaker 1: So which I don't even want to get into the
Speaker 1: Freudian reason that's there, but that the the two boys
Speaker 1: were not we're not gags as far as I know.
Speaker 1: Was she the only one who was stabbed through the neck? Now,
Speaker 1: actually it was her son, John got stabbed through the neck,
Speaker 1: and so that the cause of death in the case
Speaker 1: of John was was severing of the crodd artery. Well
Speaker 1: that would that could sever some boal. Yeah. Well, but
Speaker 1: but the thing is they were tied up. Well, let's
Speaker 1: let's let me ask you this. Are we going to
Speaker 1: get into the rest of the details about crime later
Speaker 1: or should we just do it now? I was going
Speaker 1: to I was going to talk about the autopsy in
Speaker 1: a minute. Let's let's okay, because because there's some things
Speaker 1: about like what you were saying, I know some details,
Speaker 1: but I don't want to I don't want to jump
Speaker 1: the shark here. Yeah, well that the wrong term. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's the wrong term totally, and our show will never jump. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there is. There is some dispute about whether Justin, perhaps
Speaker 1: Justin Easton, actually actually did wake up and open the
Speaker 1: door and look out and witness are all the and
Speaker 1: he's given such wildly varying accounts. How old is he though,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure. I think it was ten or twelve
Speaker 1: or something like that. He was friends with the younger
Speaker 1: anywhere from I guess five to twelve. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I can see how your story could change a couple
Speaker 1: of times. Yeah, yeah, Well, the hard thing about his
Speaker 1: story and the way that it changed is what happened.
Speaker 1: I know that I was the only one who went
Speaker 1: ahead and sacrificed three hours of my life to watch
Speaker 1: the documentaries that were made on this summer. Really into
Speaker 1: all our listeners. I did it for you. You You don't
Speaker 1: have to listen to the weird mono and then stereo
Speaker 1: audio thing that goes on in this documentary. But they
Speaker 1: record him and they talk about it, and one is
Speaker 1: when you listen to this guy tell the account of
Speaker 1: what happens, and I understand it's twenty some years later
Speaker 1: because the documentary was done in the early two thousand's.
Speaker 1: He's been telling this story for years. But he you
Speaker 1: could see he is just glaze eyed, repeating things like
Speaker 1: there's no emotion. He's not thinking about it. He's regurgitating words.
Speaker 1: We were watching it on the couch and my fiance
Speaker 1: was sitting there watching it. I was listening to the
Speaker 1: audio and headphones, and she's going, there's something weird about
Speaker 1: that dude. And I imagine it's because of what he
Speaker 1: went through and then all of the attention that was
Speaker 1: paid on him. But the hard part is I I
Speaker 1: have a hard part with his story, and I blame
Speaker 1: it on the cops. Do you guys know that the
Speaker 1: cops put him under hypnosis. Yeah, the the lead investigator
Speaker 1: had him hypnotized, so he told the story once it
Speaker 1: shifted a little bit. They hypnotized him, it shift a
Speaker 1: little bit, and then it just kind of it did
Speaker 1: this weird progression through times. So I really I would
Speaker 1: like to say that he didn't see anything. I kind
Speaker 1: of suspect that he didn't and he set himself like
Speaker 1: you know, on one account, he like got up and
Speaker 1: opened the door and saw this in another account, it's
Speaker 1: like he had a dream. It just dreamed the whole thing.
Speaker 1: So he And the thing about hypnosis too is you
Speaker 1: can't force somebody to be hypnotized. The subject has to
Speaker 1: want to be hypnotized. Well, yeah, maybe they didn't even
Speaker 1: have him actually under well and here, well that's exactly
Speaker 1: because during that one during hypnosis, I think one of
Speaker 1: the things he said is that he was watching from
Speaker 1: a crack in the bedroom door. As he watched the
Speaker 1: he said it was two men. Watched them go out
Speaker 1: into the kitchen and out the kitchen door. But evidently
Speaker 1: when you're standing in that bedroom you can't see the kitchen.
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, I think that this is what it
Speaker 1: sounds like to me, is like a little kid trying
Speaker 1: to be helpful. Yeah, you know, nail on the head.
Speaker 1: You know, it's a little kid who was like traumatized
Speaker 1: quite frankly by what they saw and trying to be helpful.
Speaker 1: And if a cop, you know, is in your face
Speaker 1: saying okay, okay, justin what'd you see? And you go nothing,
Speaker 1: And they go are you sure you didn't see anything?
Speaker 1: And you go, well, no, I guess I cracked the door.
Speaker 1: I woke up. They're like, yeah, because there's no way
Speaker 1: you could have slept through that, Justin, You're right, you could.
Speaker 1: You must have woken up. And then you know, and
Speaker 1: cops often think they're being helpful or whatever with that,
Speaker 1: they're actually pulling the story out of the lead. Oh god,
Speaker 1: I gotta think of something now, because this happened so
Speaker 1: I don't know. I didn't see the video obviously, so
Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah, yeah, no, it's is I put
Speaker 1: him under highly questionable as a witness to this whole thing.
Speaker 1: That's that's kind of the point that I want to
Speaker 1: go to. So do I Yeah, I definitely do. I'm
Speaker 1: glad we're on the same page. Yeah, definitely. As I
Speaker 1: mentioned Tina was missing, Justin was actually the first person
Speaker 1: that I know of who pointed out that Tina was missing.
Speaker 1: In my opinion, the only beneficial thing he did, yeah,
Speaker 1: I And and funny thing too is he mentioned that
Speaker 1: the cops weren't really paying attention to Eventually they concluded
Speaker 1: that Tina was indeed missing. It was one of the
Speaker 1: parents got involved and listened to him and finally figured out, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a kid missing. Yeah. It's funny that the cops
Speaker 1: after questioning Justin sent him home and he went home
Speaker 1: about thirty maybe that morning, down to cabin twenty six,
Speaker 1: and his mom said something to him like, you know,
Speaker 1: how how was it or how is it or how
Speaker 1: are they? And he said they're all dead and she's like, yeah, nad,
Speaker 1: don't joke around like that, and he's going, no, mom,
Speaker 1: they're all dead. The sharps are all dead. And she
Speaker 1: finally figured out that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And so maybe
Speaker 1: that's one reason he's a little a little messed up. Yeah. No,
Speaker 1: I don't blame him for his shifting story. I blame
Speaker 1: the situation probably. Yeah, that's tough one. So they started
Speaker 1: looking for Tina. Yeah, that major girl hunt was undertaken
Speaker 1: for Tina Sharp and she was not found. In April
Speaker 1: nine four, guy named Ronald Pedrini was looking for antique
Speaker 1: bottles and such things in the woods around Campai teen,
Speaker 1: which is a place about twenty nine miles away from Kenny,
Speaker 1: and found part of a human skull. So he called
Speaker 1: the cops and then they took it in a possession
Speaker 1: and they did a search of the immediate area and
Speaker 1: found nothing. Oh that's not what I heard. Yeah, well, no,
Speaker 1: that was in That was in April the About six
Speaker 1: weeks later they got an honest phone call, but I
Speaker 1: think I was on a thirty as somebody told them
Speaker 1: to look more around Caine Campaig teen and they found more.
Speaker 1: They found bones. They found it most importantly, they found
Speaker 1: a lower job bone. Yeah, and quote other evidence pieces, right,
Speaker 1: other evidence pieces. You have part of some blue jeans,
Speaker 1: h you know, and stuff. I'm I'm not sure if
Speaker 1: they documented that stuff actually belonged to Tina or not.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you could at that point. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, but but the lower job bone was key
Speaker 1: because they could identify her through dental records. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: so it's hard to say what happened to Tina. Obviously
Speaker 1: they took her for a reason. I don't think they
Speaker 1: just killed her and hold her body away. But we'll
Speaker 1: talk about that in a little bit. Do we have
Speaker 1: to two weeks in a row? Really? Come on, you guys,
Speaker 1: you're killing me here. Well more cheerful note, you guys
Speaker 1: want to talk about autopsy autos? Okay, su Sharp. First,
Speaker 1: her autopsy reported considerable dried and smear blood on the
Speaker 1: soles of her feet, which is interesting, which indicates that
Speaker 1: she actually was on her feet, because she didn't have
Speaker 1: wounds on her feet, but she was on her feet,
Speaker 1: apparently walking through blood. At some point they found her
Speaker 1: on the couch, laying down on the couch with a
Speaker 1: blanket over here. Yeah yeah, but at some point she
Speaker 1: had walked through the blood. Nobody really knows why. At
Speaker 1: this point her wrists and ankles were bound by white
Speaker 1: Did he take sorry? Did they find footprints in the blood,
Speaker 1: like on the floor, I have not found any mention
Speaker 1: of that. They probably they probably were bloody footprints. I
Speaker 1: think think hard because Sheila came home and likely checked
Speaker 1: the bat. Right, she's the one who discovered this scene.
Speaker 1: She didn't go in the house. She opened the door
Speaker 1: and looked in and saw everything and screamed and ran. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's yeah. Yeah, But but no, I I've looked at
Speaker 1: those pretty extensively. Unfortunately, I've looked at the crime scene
Speaker 1: photos and there are blood smears all over, But I
Speaker 1: didn't see footprints. So it's almost like there was blood
Speaker 1: and you were standing in the pool of it and
Speaker 1: then moved somewhere else. So you're not walking. If you
Speaker 1: catch what I'm going for here, you were standing in
Speaker 1: it and then you're not walking anymore. Yeah, but I
Speaker 1: don't know. I didn't see footprints anywhere. No, I didn't
Speaker 1: see any either, and they're not mentioned anywhere in any
Speaker 1: of the police reports anyway. Back to her autopsy, so
Speaker 1: she had been she was taken into the morgue. By
Speaker 1: the way, are all still bound up and everything. So
Speaker 1: there's a pretty in depth description in the optopsy report
Speaker 1: of the way she was all at her wounds and
Speaker 1: how she was bound up. They used electrical extension cords
Speaker 1: to tie her up in addition to the tape. There
Speaker 1: was one around her wrists and then and then the
Speaker 1: second one was heavier. It was tied to her wrist
Speaker 1: and then it went down to her ankles and tied
Speaker 1: her ankles together. So she was she was kind of
Speaker 1: hog tied, and she was all yeah, but were not
Speaker 1: hog tied with her hands behind her hands were in
Speaker 1: front of her. Hog Tight's wrong way, but it was
Speaker 1: ankles and connected. She was well, yeah, And and of
Speaker 1: course we've already talked about the gag which was quote
Speaker 1: embedded deeply in the mouth unquote quoting to the autop scene.
Speaker 1: There was evidence around her head and face of a
Speaker 1: lot of blunt force trauma, which is of course the hammer.
Speaker 1: This was done with a hammer, which is found its
Speaker 1: crime scene. There are lots of lacerations also stab wounds
Speaker 1: in the chest and abdomen and one in the neck.
Speaker 1: So the cause of death was listed for her blunt
Speaker 1: force trauma and stabbing. So in other words, it's not
Speaker 1: quite clear she died of brain injuries first or being
Speaker 1: stabbed in the chest. And you know, so so both
Speaker 1: you know, they just flipped the coin. Dana Wingate, on
Speaker 1: the other hand, he'd been beaten about the head, but
Speaker 1: he was not stabbed at all. He was strangled to death.
Speaker 1: His legs were also bound with his electrical cord, but
Speaker 1: his wrists were bound with tape only, which indicates that
Speaker 1: I guess they run out of extension cords. I think. So. Yeah,
Speaker 1: head and face showed blunt force trauma, but again not stabbed.
Speaker 1: And and it appears that he was he was He
Speaker 1: might have been killed by the blows to the head,
Speaker 1: but they, whoever it was, laid him on his back
Speaker 1: and strangle him for good measure. So before we get
Speaker 1: onto the next one, I know we've talked about it
Speaker 1: a couple of times. Now in this description as the
Speaker 1: medical tape, there was a lot of medical tape used
Speaker 1: to bind these people enough that it was more than
Speaker 1: one role. And they weren't the same kind. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: they were different widths. They had a good supply of it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that's the weird thing is I can understand. I mean,
Speaker 1: we've all got medical tape in the medicine cabinet, the
Speaker 1: little silly spool that you get when you buy gauze
Speaker 1: or whatever. But this was a lot of medical tape.
Speaker 1: When you think a couple of loops around ankles and
Speaker 1: then wrists and through multiple people. I don't understand why
Speaker 1: there was so much medical tape. That's something I don't
Speaker 1: I haven't figured out either, somebody. I mean, it's you
Speaker 1: know that probably what they should have done was searched
Speaker 1: every house and gone to everybody's medical medical supplies and
Speaker 1: whoever is missing all their tape, Hey, you know, you're
Speaker 1: the killer. Joe always has a really simple explanation, Well,
Speaker 1: all you have to do is do this, and then hey,
Speaker 1: they're the killer. Yeah. Yeah. It appears that most, if
Speaker 1: not all, the weapons and equipment were found on scene,
Speaker 1: like for example, the you know, the hammer I believe
Speaker 1: was found there, and then the state knife was easily
Speaker 1: found in the kitchen. Obviously, if you're going to tie
Speaker 1: people up and you're planet ahead and you're bringing your supplies,
Speaker 1: you're gonna bring rope and electrical cords. So that was
Speaker 1: medical tape. Yeah, the medical tape is something that the
Speaker 1: killer might have brought with, might been there, like I
Speaker 1: have a first aid kit in my car. Yeah, true. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: and the thing about the medical tape is, I mean
Speaker 1: we we started to talk about this earlier, is that
Speaker 1: the medical tape there was no blood underneath it, which
Speaker 1: means these people were all taped up and then killed
Speaker 1: and then killed. Yeah, same thing with the What's harder
Speaker 1: to tell with electrical cord, but the tape made a
Speaker 1: very clear band when removed, there was nothing under it.
Speaker 1: So they were taped up before they were killed. In fairness,
Speaker 1: you would do that. You wouldn't. Why would you tape
Speaker 1: a dead body up to stage a scene? Yeah, I
Speaker 1: guess there's people do that, people stage scenes, But I'm
Speaker 1: just saying it's it wasn't stage at all. It was,
Speaker 1: but it was weird that they taped and then tied them.
Speaker 1: I don't know what that was about, if that was
Speaker 1: just for good measure or what it maybe if this
Speaker 1: if this person who did this, or person's it may
Speaker 1: be that medical tape was just something to keep in
Speaker 1: good supply because you actually planned on doing something like this.
Speaker 1: So and I'll see you're driving around your car and
Speaker 1: you pick up a couple of hitchhikers. You decide, you know,
Speaker 1: you're gonna commit a little multiple murderaction tonight, and so
Speaker 1: you just reached out to the seat where you got
Speaker 1: your stash of this stuff that you use for tying
Speaker 1: people up. And maybe that wasn't well ahead. Sorry, the
Speaker 1: extension chords, it seems like they were only used to
Speaker 1: do the hot what we're calling hog tying, hog tying
Speaker 1: but whatever they like, tying from the arms to the
Speaker 1: legs to the wrist. Right, Well, that was one John
Speaker 1: wasn't tied like that too. The boys were tied together.
Speaker 1: They were, yeah, they had they had they had tape
Speaker 1: around their wrists and but and they also and they
Speaker 1: were they had tape around their their legs too. And
Speaker 1: then they had one long extension cord was tied around
Speaker 1: Dana's legs and then it went over to the other
Speaker 1: half of it was used to tie John. And the
Speaker 1: thing about that is that when I kept reading, when
Speaker 1: I kept reading the description, I thought that they were
Speaker 1: found feet to feed, but no, they were laying parallel
Speaker 1: to each other. It was just a long enough extension. Okay,
Speaker 1: that's yeah, that's weird to me. I was going to say,
Speaker 1: it would make sense that you would have to improvise
Speaker 1: or use an extension cord if you were going to
Speaker 1: try and type a length like that, because you couldn't
Speaker 1: use tape necessarily. But I don't know why, I've never
Speaker 1: seen anything about this. But I also wonder if again, okay,
Speaker 1: somebody used what they found on site electrical cords. Sue
Speaker 1: had five kids that lived in a rural area. Kids
Speaker 1: screw around and they get hurt, so I wonder if
Speaker 1: that was something she had in her medical kits, so
Speaker 1: to speak. And again, it was just a something of convenience,
Speaker 1: a couple of roles. Maybe you know, you get one
Speaker 1: and you lose it, you misplace it, you gotta go
Speaker 1: get another one because and then find the first one. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's and also there would there would be a plentiful
Speaker 1: supply of electric of extension chords in this place because
Speaker 1: it's an old cabin, there's probably no more than one
Speaker 1: electrical outlet per room, so there's gonna be lots of
Speaker 1: extension cords. Yeah, no, there was. Well, one of the
Speaker 1: extension chords was from Sue and Tina's room, one was
Speaker 1: from the living room. So yeah, they pulled them from
Speaker 1: multiple rooms. Yeah. Quickly about John Sharp, there's not much
Speaker 1: more to be said about him, is off tops. He
Speaker 1: indicated again that he was killed by the severing of
Speaker 1: his crodd ory artery, but he again had a lot
Speaker 1: of blunt force trauma. The really vicious crime, I mean
Speaker 1: bashing somebody in the head in the face with a
Speaker 1: hammer and then stabbing him with a knife. Yeah, pretty
Speaker 1: appalling crime. Okay, the wall, Oh yeah, one of the things,
Speaker 1: the walls have been apparently stabbed. Somebody had like stabbed
Speaker 1: the walls. Yeah, it's um. When you were a kid,
Speaker 1: did you ever try to throw a knife into a tree.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's it seemed like that, like there was
Speaker 1: just gazillions of little stab martin several walls, as if
Speaker 1: somebody was trying to throw a knife into a wall
Speaker 1: and get it to stick. That odd, but that gives
Speaker 1: it does make you wonder if perhaps they were looking
Speaker 1: for something like they were looking for a false compartment
Speaker 1: behind the wall. That's true. Oh yeah, oh that Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're using it as kind of a sound sounding board. Yeah.
Speaker 1: One theory that has been has been put forth. This
Speaker 1: is apparently what somebody somewhere in the town. So there's
Speaker 1: a lot of statements that are out there in the
Speaker 1: record is being made by whom to whom the record
Speaker 1: is not always clear. It's a little town full of
Speaker 1: tons and tons of rumors. Yeah, lots of One rumor
Speaker 1: was that it was a drug deal gone bad and
Speaker 1: then a couple of people were just in the wrong
Speaker 1: place at the wrong time. Presumably that's John and Dana,
Speaker 1: and so yeah, that's true. Yeah, I mean, I I
Speaker 1: don't agree with the drug deal gone bad. But is
Speaker 1: that in your I'm assuming that's in the theory section
Speaker 1: or should we talk about that? Uh, now we can
Speaker 1: talk about it now. It's not really in my in
Speaker 1: the theory section, because the thing about it is is
Speaker 1: there's no evidence. Like one of the suspects, there was
Speaker 1: some some talk, some evidence that he actually sold the
Speaker 1: hash and then supplemented his income making selling hash, and
Speaker 1: but there's no evidence of the kind of high value
Speaker 1: drug smuggling in the town that would that would actually
Speaker 1: motivate you to immerse somebody. Well, coke moved through that
Speaker 1: town evidently at that time. Ye, cocaine was a trade,
Speaker 1: but in quantities sufficient to cause somebody to get murdered.
Speaker 1: And the thing is, Sue was clean. There was no
Speaker 1: drugs inner system when they did the autopsy. She didn't drink,
Speaker 1: she didn't do drugs, as far as I could tell I.
Speaker 1: I had a hard time tracking down her background. Maybe
Speaker 1: you found better information than I did, But from everything
Speaker 1: that I found, she was a straight arrow. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think so. I don't know why she would have been
Speaker 1: involved in anything like that. That doesn't make any sense
Speaker 1: in fairness, though straight arrows make the best dealers, that's true. Well,
Speaker 1: but she also and maybe this is in your theory section,
Speaker 1: she had a couple of skiezy boyfriends. Yeah, and that's
Speaker 1: not Yeah, it's not that there's a section either. But
Speaker 1: but you're right. I mean, actually a straight arrow would would,
Speaker 1: if nothing else, make for a good courier, good you know,
Speaker 1: or a good place to stash your stuff. That's that's
Speaker 1: why I was so good in the drug trade, I
Speaker 1: mean would make Yeah, do you want to talk about
Speaker 1: the skull before we move on the soft tissue bit
Speaker 1: soft tissue? Yeah, I feel like that's really interesting and compelling. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well we should talk about that. Yeah, back to Tina's
Speaker 1: skull um. It was found three years almost three years today.
Speaker 1: It was like three years and ten days I think
Speaker 1: three years in eleven days after afterwards, and it wasn't
Speaker 1: particularly weathered, which indicated it hadn't been in that spot
Speaker 1: probably for the whole three years. And it actually still
Speaker 1: had some soft tissue in it. It did. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: still had some some some brain matter in there and stuff,
Speaker 1: which would indicate because if it had been if it's
Speaker 1: three years, the bugs and everything would have cleaned that out.
Speaker 1: So if it's been outdoors even for three years in
Speaker 1: that area, now that that conflicts with the stuff that
Speaker 1: I've seen from the corner corner who examined it, because
Speaker 1: he said it was clean. There was no but there
Speaker 1: was no organic material left on it. It was stained
Speaker 1: on one side from the dirt but slightly bleached on
Speaker 1: the other, meaning it sat in the same spot that
Speaker 1: wasn't a sunny spot but did get sun for at
Speaker 1: least a couple of years. Okay, so that's I was.
Speaker 1: That was then. Unfortunately I apologize to our listeners. Well, no,
Speaker 1: I don't. I mean, that's what he said, but I
Speaker 1: don't know if his recollection is right because it was
Speaker 1: an interview done with him years later. But but this
Speaker 1: is the hard part is that these always there's so
Speaker 1: many interpretations. Yea, it is easy. Yeah, I'm not sure
Speaker 1: exactly why her body he was put there. I don't
Speaker 1: think she was murdered immediately, but you know I don't either. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's horrified to think about. But I think she
Speaker 1: might have lived for quite a while after you can
Speaker 1: get napped. Oh yeah, I don't agree with how. I
Speaker 1: think she lived a day or two, but have just
Speaker 1: been a day or two. It could have been longer.
Speaker 1: I don't know. Well, we'll talk about that a little
Speaker 1: bit later. But yeah, A list a few suspects here.
Speaker 1: Martin Ray Smart, also known as Marty Smart. Marty Smart.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I've never I never really paid attention to
Speaker 1: the fact that it's Marty Smart. Yeah, Marty, it makes
Speaker 1: you want to say, mighty smart. Well, it makes me
Speaker 1: think of that what was that silly Detective Show in
Speaker 1: the sixties. Get that's all I was gonna say. It
Speaker 1: reminds me of ax Man, right what a bit like
Speaker 1: Joe Wordan, go Ward Snowart and Robert and Bobbert's Smartest
Speaker 1: and a man. Yeah, we've watched it. It's fine, Okay,
Speaker 1: So Marty Smart, Mrighty Smart. Uh. Yeah. I lived in
Speaker 1: Cabin twenty six. He was not a model citizen. Supposedly,
Speaker 1: Rumors rumored in the seventies he was living in Phoenix
Speaker 1: at that time and tried to murder his brother and
Speaker 1: expressed the desire to blow up his parents house. Yeah,
Speaker 1: apparently he went off to look for explosives but changed
Speaker 1: his mind. So good, that's lucky for the parents. Huh
Speaker 1: he uh. Maryland said that at some point in nineteen Sorry,
Speaker 1: who's Maryland? Oh? Yeah, that was his wife, Marylyn. I'm
Speaker 1: sorry didn't mention that. Yeah, he married Maryland I think
Speaker 1: in seventy nine, Maryland being Justin's mom. Yeah, Justin's mom,
Speaker 1: Justin's was it Justin Smart? Was his name Justin Easton?
Speaker 1: I think he kept Stad's name. Yeah, alright, sorry, just yeah,
Speaker 1: because that was one of my hard parts. But this
Speaker 1: is names flip all over the place, and so, yeah,
Speaker 1: they're not always consistent or correct on the websites invite
Speaker 1: and and like, all these people in this town are named,
Speaker 1: and this person was drove over to his place and
Speaker 1: saw him do that, and there's all these different names,
Speaker 1: and it's just it's hard to keep tracking the whole thing. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I could make info graphics about just about every
Speaker 1: one of these stories. Yeah, I'm not going to, though,
Speaker 1: it's not worth the effort. But Mary, but Maryland said
Speaker 1: that he actually tried to run run her and the
Speaker 1: kids over in nine eight with a car. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: had apparently had a real anger problem. Happy marriage, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, I know. He was Marty smart, as was
Speaker 1: the guy that was selling hash. One person, one person
Speaker 1: in town reports reportedly said he saw a brick of
Speaker 1: hash that looked like a wait, about a pound in
Speaker 1: Marty's house. Oh yeah, that's a lot of hash that
Speaker 1: last me a week or two. And yeah, in March
Speaker 1: nine one, he went to the Reno Veterans Administration Hospital
Speaker 1: to check into the psych ward because he was apparently
Speaker 1: having some psych problems. That evidently was at the request
Speaker 1: of his wife. Yeah, she coerced him or of his
Speaker 1: to talk him in to go in and get and
Speaker 1: checked in for help because he had relationship issues. Yeah
Speaker 1: you management. Yeah, that's one of the things he discussed
Speaker 1: with the therapist. He's having marriage problems. Uh, she was
Speaker 1: threatening to divorce him. And he had anger problems. Oh yeah.
Speaker 1: There Another indication he had anger problems is at one
Speaker 1: point he threatened to break Johnny Sharp's hands, the ten
Speaker 1: year old Johnny Sharp, the fifteen year old Sharp. Yeah
Speaker 1: that's not done much better really, Yeah. Yeah, his wife
Speaker 1: said Maryland said that he didn't like teenagers period. He
Speaker 1: thought they were all punks, and he really didn't like yeah,
Speaker 1: all of them. Yeah, and didn't like women particularly either.
Speaker 1: I thought they were all slots and horrors. So yeah,
Speaker 1: he had serious issues. Yeah. Yeah. He later claimed to
Speaker 1: a therapist that he thought he had PTSD from his
Speaker 1: time in Vietnam. It turns out he had really soft
Speaker 1: duty in Vietnam. He was he was a cook, and
Speaker 1: he was he was far far away from the war zone,
Speaker 1: and so he probably had If you want to avoid
Speaker 1: getting shot, the best possible place to be in Vietnam,
Speaker 1: you're with the U. S. Military. His therapist, this therapist
Speaker 1: really shot that down. Yeah, rightfully. So I can I
Speaker 1: give you my impression of Marty or Martin depending on
Speaker 1: which thing you read. I've known a lot of guys
Speaker 1: like him. You come from a because they come from
Speaker 1: a small town where a bunch of guys went to
Speaker 1: Vietnam and they came back and it's a rural community
Speaker 1: and they didn't get the help they needed. And they
Speaker 1: have a lot of macho bravado about them because that's
Speaker 1: their defense mechanism. And some and they'd says I'm gonna
Speaker 1: beat the crap out of you or I'm gonna kill you,
Speaker 1: and some of it was just a lot of it
Speaker 1: was talk from a lot of it, but there were
Speaker 1: somewhere you went, oh, wait, that guy is actually kind
Speaker 1: of serious in a little scary and aren't smart. He
Speaker 1: he strikes me is a little leaning towards the serious
Speaker 1: scary side than the full of hot air side. Yeah. Possibly,
Speaker 1: he did that have a history of violence well, and
Speaker 1: the things that he said those are the very indicative
Speaker 1: of things that I've heard before. And it just but
Speaker 1: the things that he's done that his actions or why,
Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, part of that wasn't an actually an
Speaker 1: act he was had a few scrooge loops. Yeah, that
Speaker 1: sounds like. But yeah, this thing about small towns is
Speaker 1: that the nutcases and the psychos, you really can't avoid
Speaker 1: running into him if you live in a big city.
Speaker 1: They're kind of self seggregating that they're living off in
Speaker 1: the port, in the port part of town, and you
Speaker 1: hopefully or not, and then well, it's it's also terrible
Speaker 1: because the cycle for them is so much smaller and tighter.
Speaker 1: Think about it. You live in a metro area and
Speaker 1: you've got some issues, and you run into somebody and
Speaker 1: they anger you, and you think about it, but you
Speaker 1: don't see that person for six months, so by the
Speaker 1: time you see them, all that pent up whatever, it
Speaker 1: is just kind of dissipated. Whereas if you run into
Speaker 1: somebody and you live in a small town and they've
Speaker 1: done something to anger you, and it's starting to cycle up,
Speaker 1: and then you see them three days later, cycles up more,
Speaker 1: four days later, two days later, it's like just these
Speaker 1: these these these situations or pressure cookers for a personality
Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, small towns aren't all just not all
Speaker 1: milk and honey, not rainbows and small towns. Interestingly enough,
Speaker 1: they vary in their culture. Like I grew up, I
Speaker 1: spent most of my young Ringer gears in a small town.
Speaker 1: And uh, I think it's fair to say there was
Speaker 1: another town about seven miles away that culturally was significantly
Speaker 1: different from ours. And and uh, it really is true.
Speaker 1: They're not It's not all Mayberry or anything like some
Speaker 1: of them are. Some of them are really nice places,
Speaker 1: full of nice people, you know, and some of them
Speaker 1: are full jerks. Yeah, people with problems. Yeah. Can we
Speaker 1: start talking about the mystery here? Yeah? No, I'm totally
Speaker 1: off here. Yeah, we we really kind of delve into
Speaker 1: that a little bit too much. Also, I can't commiserate.
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's that's true. Okay, So back to the vetting.
Speaker 1: So he's in the pside ward. His his claim for
Speaker 1: ps PTSD has been kind of rebooked. Yeah, And eventually
Speaker 1: he got he checked out and went back to Ketty
Speaker 1: and he brought a friend that he had met in
Speaker 1: the VA hospital, another guy with metal metal issues. Good idea. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'll talk about this guy a little bit later. Marty.
Speaker 1: We're still talking about Marty being a suspect. Apparently on
Speaker 1: somebody recalled him saying on April four or the eleventh,
Speaker 1: that somebody knew it was a Saturday, but I couldn't
Speaker 1: remember specifically what date it was. Marty had told him
Speaker 1: that if he Marty didn't get things straightened out, he
Speaker 1: might kill somebody. And was that I could never clue
Speaker 1: in was that straightened out with his wife or just
Speaker 1: straightened out in general, or do you know that's that's
Speaker 1: it's very vague. It's very vague. Yeh. Marty of course
Speaker 1: was a suspect. I think one of the things that
Speaker 1: that one of the things that sort of got the
Speaker 1: police interested in him is that his wife the day
Speaker 1: of April twelfth, when the bodies were discovered, his wife
Speaker 1: moved out well and her son was one of the
Speaker 1: surviving boys as well, and it would explain why his
Speaker 1: story changed. Yeah, like if he opened the door and
Speaker 1: saw his stepdad like killing a bunch of people, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you might say, yeah, I saw something, and they'd say, okay, son,
Speaker 1: what'd you see and you'd go, uh, nothing, I don't
Speaker 1: want to get a whooping nothing nothing. He might kill
Speaker 1: me too. Nothing could have been that, although it's um
Speaker 1: you know, if if Marty was, if Marty Smart was
Speaker 1: as abusive as some people say it was towards Maryland
Speaker 1: and possibly kids also, wouldn't that be a grand opportunity
Speaker 1: to say, yeah, yeah, it was my stepdad murdering those people,
Speaker 1: and so he gets carted off, He gets carted off
Speaker 1: to prison, and you can go find a better step dad. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I guess there's that fear, there's the irrational fear.
Speaker 1: Yeah that twelve, Yeah, that's yeah. Among us as adults,
Speaker 1: that's a very easy logical thing to say, Hey, I
Speaker 1: can get rid of this jerk. But as a kid,
Speaker 1: you don't know, because you know, you just don't have
Speaker 1: the life experience and your emotions are all erratic and weird.
Speaker 1: That's an easy way to think. But that's not the
Speaker 1: way that the kids at that age thing. Probably not.
Speaker 1: But and I have no idea if he had justin
Speaker 1: witnessed anything or not. I don't think he did. I
Speaker 1: don't know. I kind of doubt it, but yeah, we
Speaker 1: talked about it. Marty, of course was a suspect again
Speaker 1: he left two doors down history of violence. He was
Speaker 1: known to not like Sue because he believed that Sue
Speaker 1: was trying was trying to persuade Maryland to leave him.
Speaker 1: She probably was, because yeah, he was a bit of
Speaker 1: a jerk. So yeah, and he uh, he at one
Speaker 1: point in his sessions with the psychotherapist did talk about
Speaker 1: this and talk about this quote unquote bitch who was
Speaker 1: trying to turn his wife against him, and that undoubtedly
Speaker 1: that was probably Sue. He had a motive, not not
Speaker 1: really much of a motive. I don't I don't think
Speaker 1: that's enough of a motive for any rational person to
Speaker 1: murder four people. He may not have been rational, doesn't
Speaker 1: have to be rational. Yeah, So he was questioned and everything,
Speaker 1: and he took a polygraph test which he passed. But
Speaker 1: then a month after the murders, this didn't come to
Speaker 1: light until years later. Yeah, and for for a reason.
Speaker 1: But the month after the murders, he talked to his
Speaker 1: therapist to get it to the v A and he
Speaker 1: said that he had killed Sue Sharp and he said
Speaker 1: he did he did it because Sue was trying to
Speaker 1: talk Maryland into leaving him. Wait, when when did he
Speaker 1: talk to the therapist. That would have been in nine one. Oh,
Speaker 1: I thought it was later on than that. Now it
Speaker 1: was in and then uh, unless, unless of course the
Speaker 1: source where I got this again confused about the timeline.
Speaker 1: There are so many timelines out there and so many,
Speaker 1: so many different statements by various people. The therapist, of
Speaker 1: course couldn't reveal this. They're there, they can't. But after
Speaker 1: Marty died, he died in the year two thousand, the
Speaker 1: therapists apparently waited ten years. And maybe that's no. I
Speaker 1: think the therapist did contact the police, and because they're
Speaker 1: required by law too to give that information. You know,
Speaker 1: client confidentiality only goes so far. Murder doesn't cover murder.
Speaker 1: But the cops got the information and then did nothing
Speaker 1: with it, So that was a little bit of incompetence
Speaker 1: there or otherwise, who knows. Apparently the therapist contacted them
Speaker 1: again some years later after Marty died and brought the
Speaker 1: issue up again, and they reopened the investigation, or at
Speaker 1: least took a look at it. But again the school case.
Speaker 1: By this time, it's two thousand and ten. I think
Speaker 1: when that when that when he took it up with
Speaker 1: them again. Well, and he was already dead at that point, Yeah,
Speaker 1: he was dead ten years. Uh. And interestingly, though he
Speaker 1: Marty said nothing about the other murders. He didn't say
Speaker 1: anything about that. He just said he killed Sue. Yeah, interesting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: very that doesn't make sense. It really doesn't, because that's
Speaker 1: what that would mean is he goes over there and
Speaker 1: he kills Sue and then and leaves her corpse on
Speaker 1: the Lisa corpse on the on the couch with a
Speaker 1: blanket over it, and then maybe the other two come
Speaker 1: the two boys come home with the psycho, the psycho killer,
Speaker 1: who's giving them a ride, and then he and then
Speaker 1: the psycho killer murders them. This is the weirdest bad
Speaker 1: look scenario. Would that be an amazing coincidence? Alternately, Alternately, she,
Speaker 1: I mean, she doesn't seem the type, but she, for
Speaker 1: whatever reason, kills the boys and then herself to death.
Speaker 1: Then Marty comes over for whatever reason, and because he's
Speaker 1: rolled up or whatever, Well he was drunk that night, right,
Speaker 1: so it's blames her blood on her feet, right, And
Speaker 1: then he sees what happened and was already angry at
Speaker 1: her and kills her in a similar manner and ties
Speaker 1: her up and leaves her on the couch. And I
Speaker 1: don't know what happens to Tina, she even less, I know,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I mean, she's hit sacking in Highway seventy
Speaker 1: and she gets picked up by Mr Secho Killer. There
Speaker 1: you go. No, what about so what about the friend?
Speaker 1: The friend? Oh yeah, let's talk about her friends, his
Speaker 1: friend or his friend. I mean, yeah, yeah, Marty's friend.
Speaker 1: And he brought back from the second ward. Uh. This
Speaker 1: guy's name full name was Severing, John Balbadee. Didn't we
Speaker 1: have somebody who was named Severing in a case before?
Speaker 1: Wasn't it in the toy and be tiles se? Yeah? Okay,
Speaker 1: that name really sounds familiars. Yeah, I can't believe that
Speaker 1: the first time you'd ever heard Severneah. Oh yeah, I
Speaker 1: had a friend growing up name Severn. So name for me? Sorry,
Speaker 1: I was like, well, I thought that was all in
Speaker 1: the name. Rest now Bobade uh one by the nickname
Speaker 1: of bowl. Alright, that's what I said, Boada, it's balbade
Speaker 1: So I'm still trying to learn how to pronounce that
Speaker 1: name babade. But Bo was staying with the Smart. He
Speaker 1: came back from Reno Via and stayed with the Smart,
Speaker 1: sleeping on the couch. Reportedly, he liked to get up
Speaker 1: at night and wander around outside. It's a little lanky,
Speaker 1: but maybe he had insomnia. Yeah. He was also in
Speaker 1: psychiatric therapy, just like Marty was met Sue Sharp on
Speaker 1: April eighth, three days before the murders, and reportedly the
Speaker 1: next day said he'd like to get to know we're better. Yeah.
Speaker 1: She was a pretty lady and she was probably nice
Speaker 1: to him, Yeah, could have been. And then probably the
Speaker 1: dating prospects in that town were not that huge. Yeah.
Speaker 1: On the night of April eleven, Marty Beau and Maryland
Speaker 1: got dressed up and then they were they put on
Speaker 1: suits and all kinds of nice clothes and stuff, and
Speaker 1: they went to the back door bar and ketty, which
Speaker 1: was they walked to. Yeah, they walked to it. It's
Speaker 1: a tiny little town. Yeah. And that reportedly they left
Speaker 1: about nine thirty and they stopped. According to some accounts,
Speaker 1: they stopped by Sue Sharp's house to ask if she
Speaker 1: wanted to tag along, and she said she wasn't interested.
Speaker 1: That are you look at them? And how many kids
Speaker 1: I have here? Yeah, and they were all like that
Speaker 1: just against the bad you know, it was the eighties. Yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 1: And uh so she had four kids there and two
Speaker 1: more that were out hitchacking or something or still in
Speaker 1: Quincy at the time, so she just didn't want to go,
Speaker 1: and apparently she didn't drink anyway, so you know what
Speaker 1: you wanted, but makes sense to turn down the offer. Yeah. Uh,
Speaker 1: So they hung out at the back door bar and
Speaker 1: then about twelve thirty or so that they changed the
Speaker 1: music in the bar. Yeah, they changed the type of
Speaker 1: music they were playing in Bow got really angry about
Speaker 1: it because he liked country and they were playing rock
Speaker 1: and roll. Uh, that's what gets me riled up every time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm ready, I'm ready to kill people over stuff like that.
Speaker 1: They went back to Cabin twenty six and Marylyn went
Speaker 1: to bed. At this point, Marty wanted to go back
Speaker 1: to the bar, but Bo was still really furious about
Speaker 1: the music change. They even called the bar. Marty caught
Speaker 1: the car with the bar and complained about it to
Speaker 1: the bar attender. And all sense tells you the size
Speaker 1: of the town when you can call the bar and
Speaker 1: complain about the music, and and and Bo was like,
Speaker 1: Marty wants to go, but Bo was so mad he
Speaker 1: just has to calm down for a while. So really yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: But eventually they did go back to the bar, then
Speaker 1: return at some unknown time because Marilyn was asleep when
Speaker 1: she woke up, Marty was in bed with her and
Speaker 1: but was asleep in the couch. Who knows what they
Speaker 1: were up to or wet when they came back. Well,
Speaker 1: they did go to the bar. Evidently they were there
Speaker 1: at last call. Yeah, Marty was wearing a green suit
Speaker 1: for for heading the bar, but the next day the
Speaker 1: suit was gone, and Marilynd said she never saw it again,
Speaker 1: which is suspicious. But on the other hand, she moved
Speaker 1: out of that place on April twelve, So so I
Speaker 1: woke up the morning of April that the green suit
Speaker 1: was not there. I never saw it again. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: she but when she moved out, she said she was
Speaker 1: afraid of what Marty might do to her and the kids.
Speaker 1: But again, that doesn't necessarily indicate that Marty was a murderer,
Speaker 1: and she was afraid of getting murdered, And she just
Speaker 1: might have realized I'm in a not good situation and
Speaker 1: oh my god, my neighbor just got brutally murdered. I
Speaker 1: should probably make a life change. Yeah, I know, I know, seriously,
Speaker 1: And I told you as I told you before you
Speaker 1: got justin arrived home from Cavin twenty run eight thirty
Speaker 1: am and told her that everybody was dead at the
Speaker 1: same time that day, about that same time, a guy
Speaker 1: named Jim Meeks went over to Marty Smarts house and
Speaker 1: saw that he was burning yard debris in the yard
Speaker 1: and said that he believed he saw a pair of
Speaker 1: shoes in the middle of the pile of burning debris. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't really know. I'm not sure about this because
Speaker 1: the thing about it is is my understanding of it
Speaker 1: is when they went back to the house and before
Speaker 1: they return to the bar, they changed their clothes. I
Speaker 1: mean you've read that in some accounts, right, I think
Speaker 1: I have. Yeah, there's some. Yeah, there were so many
Speaker 1: papers the one website that I think all three of
Speaker 1: us drew on pretty heavily for like the reports and
Speaker 1: the papers, because it was a plathora of information there was,
Speaker 1: so it was actually information overloads. So it's made it
Speaker 1: kind of hard to pull details. Yeah. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, so some some some say they change your clothes.
Speaker 1: Of course, on the other hand, if you're all gussie up,
Speaker 1: but we're your best clothes, you're gonna want to change. Well,
Speaker 1: if to commit a murder, yeah, no, I mean if
Speaker 1: you you know, you came home, So this is what
Speaker 1: happens for me. I don't know about you guys, but
Speaker 1: you get all dressed up and you go out and
Speaker 1: you're like, yeah, this is fun, and you go home
Speaker 1: and you're like, I wish I was wearing jeans right now. Yeah,
Speaker 1: jeans and you know, sweatshirt on and oh let's yeah, sure,
Speaker 1: let's go back out to the bar. Yeah, okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: no problem. That happened to me every time I wear
Speaker 1: my best dress. I know, you know, but no, I
Speaker 1: I can see that, you know, it's you're not You
Speaker 1: probably get dressed up because Maryland was like, wouldn't it
Speaker 1: be fun if we all got dressed up? And this
Speaker 1: is not a place where guys typically wear a suit. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so it seems unlikely that Marty and Beau would be like,
Speaker 1: you know, want to be really fun and if we
Speaker 1: put on our suits. Yeah, I could just see a
Speaker 1: guy in a collared shirt, in a suit or in
Speaker 1: a tie for a couple of hours, having a couple
Speaker 1: of drinks, and the first thing you want to do
Speaker 1: is get out of that. Absolutely. Yeah. And actually, probably
Speaker 1: Bou wanted to be all dressed up because he was
Speaker 1: probably hoping to find him a woman in the bar
Speaker 1: and have to spending a few hours in a bar.
Speaker 1: He realizes that it's his hopes of actually finding somebody
Speaker 1: in the bar were pretty much and he's super angry. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's super angry. So why I keep wearing the suit,
Speaker 1: you know, when there's no women in the bar anyway,
Speaker 1: So they probably changed. Don't use up your good juju. No,
Speaker 1: absolutely not. Supposedly, Maryland told Jim Meeks later in that day,
Speaker 1: that's April twelve, that she's seen a bloody hammer in
Speaker 1: the basement of Cabin twenty six. Wasn't the hammer found
Speaker 1: at the scene. Yeah it was. It's clearly visible in
Speaker 1: one of the crime scene photographs. Ye Oh no, it
Speaker 1: sounds like a disgruntled next wife. Although I guess, well,
Speaker 1: I don't. I gotta tell you, I I have never
Speaker 1: seen that many cabins in the woods that have basements, actually,
Speaker 1: so that's that kind of makes me wonder right there. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: I guess my argument pro her having seen that is
Speaker 1: it's I don't know that you would be able to
Speaker 1: tell if it was only one hammer. It could have
Speaker 1: been more than one hammer too, you know, if it
Speaker 1: were two guys, two guys to hammers to hammers well
Speaker 1: didn't also tell the cops, oh, by the way, my
Speaker 1: hammer went missing. Yeah, they made he made a lot
Speaker 1: of interesting statements. There was one they called in the
Speaker 1: Department of Justice and the DJ investigators had a little
Speaker 1: interview with him, and he made a couple of other
Speaker 1: sort of semi incriminating stage. Yeah, he's said some weird stuff. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Like it was like like and talking about his stepson's
Speaker 1: possibly observing the crime, he said something in the order
Speaker 1: of it's possible, that it's possible, and I just didn't
Speaker 1: notice him. Well, it's just like wow, really, that's the
Speaker 1: kind of thing that they should have kind of maybe
Speaker 1: zeroed in on and kind of hammered away at. And
Speaker 1: they really it was kind of a lackluster investigating. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there were there were so many things that were botched.
Speaker 1: There was so there was Johnny and then what was
Speaker 1: the other boy that was in No, in the no,
Speaker 1: the boys that were in the room that survived. There
Speaker 1: was Justin and also Ricky and Greg. Yeah, and I
Speaker 1: can't remember which one of him was being interviewed by
Speaker 1: the Department of Justice, but you can hear if you
Speaker 1: listen to the tape. It's the guy saying you know,
Speaker 1: the time and the date and his name and interviewing
Speaker 1: subjects so and so, and puts the mic over to
Speaker 1: the kid to get a mic test to make sure
Speaker 1: everything's working. And then the rest of the tape is
Speaker 1: blankly the thing just shut off or just stopped recording,
Speaker 1: and they they like did the test to make sure
Speaker 1: it work, but didn't have the aptitude to go, oh,
Speaker 1: that's funny. The little lights on it stopped moving. Oh well,
Speaker 1: we'll keep going this Actually, in fairness to them, we've
Speaker 1: actually committed the same mistake. Life was at steak. Yeah, fairness,
Speaker 1: nobody's life was at stake in not either. The lives
Speaker 1: had been already good. Joe's life was kind of at
Speaker 1: steak because I was just so done with that story. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that was that was not a great anyway back to
Speaker 1: this botched investigated investigation. Well, just another word about the hammer.
Speaker 1: There might have been two hammers. He might have taken
Speaker 1: his bloody hammer home with them, but wouldn't have washed
Speaker 1: it off. But but there was all of the tools. Okay,
Speaker 1: so it was a hammer and a knife, and a
Speaker 1: steak knife and and a butcher knife, and they had
Speaker 1: all been wiped down at the scene of the crime.
Speaker 1: They weren't covered in gads of blood. Okay, Well, if
Speaker 1: you took the time to wipe down the tools of
Speaker 1: the murder and leave them at the murder scene, why
Speaker 1: in the hell would you take a bloody one home? No? No, no,
Speaker 1: And you want to if you possibly can, you want
Speaker 1: to leave the murder weapons the scene. Yeah, Yeah, that
Speaker 1: that that that whole There was a bloody hammer in
Speaker 1: the basement. Thing That doesn't jie with what was at
Speaker 1: the scene of the nonsense. And I don't know, I
Speaker 1: don't know if if Marilyn was lying, more likely Jim
Speaker 1: Meeks was lying, or maybe somebody just made this stuff
Speaker 1: up and stuck into the record at some point. Let's
Speaker 1: talking about theories for a little bit. Yeah, God, are
Speaker 1: we not there yet? Yeah, And there's a there's a
Speaker 1: lot more if you guys want to do more research,
Speaker 1: follow some of the links. Uh, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: stuff out there. Just to make this not a five
Speaker 1: hour episode, I've omitted lots of stuff. And also because
Speaker 1: some of its conflicting and and it's fragmentary, so and so,
Speaker 1: you know, you know, Bob C said this, and yeah,
Speaker 1: a lot of it is recounting five ten twenty thirty
Speaker 1: years later, and those are bound to conflict from statement
Speaker 1: one to statement five. A person is going to change
Speaker 1: it without intending to over time. Absolutely, the memories a
Speaker 1: tricky thing. Okay, back to our series Sue number one.
Speaker 1: Sue was the target of the attack that she was
Speaker 1: the one who wanted to kill some people of theorist.
Speaker 1: She was bound and gagged and then forced to watch
Speaker 1: as John and Data were murdered and Tina was tied
Speaker 1: up production. So us whoever did this really hated Sue. Yeah,
Speaker 1: if this is what happened, then no doubt they explained
Speaker 1: in detail or he explained it do tell what he
Speaker 1: was going to be doing with Tina just to make
Speaker 1: her predicament that that much more horrible before murdering her.
Speaker 1: But I don't understand why he or they didn't haul
Speaker 1: the other two children out of the back bedroom and
Speaker 1: kill them. They were strangers there. You know, you wouldn't
Speaker 1: know that those kids were back there. That's possible if
Speaker 1: you think you to have a look around, but maybe
Speaker 1: not well, but you could say, is there anybody else home? No,
Speaker 1: all my kids are sleeping at the neighbor's house. As
Speaker 1: a preventative statement to protect your children. Yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean I but you know, if Sue was a target
Speaker 1: of the attack, the only person intended seemed to have
Speaker 1: a grudge against her was Marty, right, Marty Smart, who
Speaker 1: would have known how many kids she had, who would
Speaker 1: have known that his stepson is in the other room.
Speaker 1: He would have known that. This is one of the
Speaker 1: reasons I have strong doubts. Even though everybody else thinks
Speaker 1: Marty Smart did this, I have strong doubts that he did.
Speaker 1: I mean, I really don't, because I really do think
Speaker 1: I have to have doubts. Well, just because he had
Speaker 1: a criminal history and a history of violence, but never
Speaker 1: anything this savage, never anything that savage, and he would
Speaker 1: have done it. If he wanted to kill Sue, he
Speaker 1: would have found a way to maybe have doctor tick
Speaker 1: her out in the woods and kill her out there.
Speaker 1: He wouldn't do it with the steps on in the
Speaker 1: next room. Do you think, m again, this assumes I mean,
Speaker 1: this assumes he was, like you know, it assumes a
Speaker 1: lot of that. But it also you know, just because
Speaker 1: Sue was the target, I guess Sue was the target
Speaker 1: of the attack, assumes that somebody knew who she was, Right, Okay,
Speaker 1: all right, never mind, you say it assumes that somebody
Speaker 1: that that person knows Sue, but she intended target that
Speaker 1: they have to know who she is. Yeah, well that's
Speaker 1: there's another possibility and somebody that didn't know Sue, but
Speaker 1: it was just a psychopathic jerk, So we'll get to that.
Speaker 1: That's that's you know, somebody somebody gave the boys a
Speaker 1: ride home and saw Sue and was like, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I would like some of that, thank you. And then
Speaker 1: or more likely, I think saw Tina and hey, I
Speaker 1: want some of that. I know, I know it's terrible,
Speaker 1: but she was the one that was abducted. Remember, no,
Speaker 1: I don't either. But let's get on to another theater theory,
Speaker 1: which is Tina was the reason for the attack and
Speaker 1: everybody else was collateral damage. So some people have said
Speaker 1: that Bo really liked young girls. So say, if it
Speaker 1: was Bo, you know, he goes over there and well,
Speaker 1: he's got it. He's got to deal with the mother,
Speaker 1: kill her, and then abducted the girl, and then the
Speaker 1: other two show up. That the two boys show up,
Speaker 1: and so he's got to whack them. Walk in on,
Speaker 1: they walk in on. He's got to whack them too.
Speaker 1: I have you also heard about the allegations of the
Speaker 1: involvement between Marty and Tina. Yeah, well I heard something
Speaker 1: about that was possibly some sort of a relationship there,
Speaker 1: but there there. I have seen stuff that speculates that
Speaker 1: Tina was pregnant. She's at it's possible, It's possible, or
Speaker 1: there was fear that she was pregnant by Marty and
Speaker 1: that he, thinking that he was going to protect his
Speaker 1: world what he had and not let that get out
Speaker 1: and destroy it, went after her, and of course that
Speaker 1: meant Sue was the collateral damage. And before he could
Speaker 1: abscond with her and do whatever he intended to do
Speaker 1: with her to erase that evidence, the other two boys arrived.
Speaker 1: I have a really hard time with that, except that,
Speaker 1: I mean, initially you think, well, if this guy was
Speaker 1: having doing something sexual in nature with this girl, she
Speaker 1: would have told somebody, except that unfortunately, it's not the
Speaker 1: first time she had been molested by an adult, so
Speaker 1: she may have just never said this. Lots of speculation.
Speaker 1: Lots of kids get molested and don't say anything. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's Unfortunately, what the pedophiles count on
Speaker 1: is that they're too scared to say anything. But this
Speaker 1: is speculation. I can't say that it's true. I've seen
Speaker 1: it a little bit jibes, but a lot of it doesn't. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I've never seen any strong evidence that indicates to me
Speaker 1: that that's true. But the other thing about it is
Speaker 1: is that if he needed to get rid of Tina,
Speaker 1: and obviously get rid of the body because La Tops,
Speaker 1: it would have revealed that she was pregnant. Right, So
Speaker 1: if you need to do that, there are better ways
Speaker 1: to do it than killing a bunch of people. He
Speaker 1: could have easily, You could have easily just set up
Speaker 1: a meeting with her, especially if he was sleeping with her. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he could have just like you know, Center called her
Speaker 1: and said, hey, let's get together, and then then just
Speaker 1: take her out in the woods and murder her and
Speaker 1: bury her body. I'd like to introduce Exhibit one. Alcohol
Speaker 1: get drunk, You make dumb decisions. People make a lot
Speaker 1: of dumb decisions when they're I'm just gonna fix this now,
Speaker 1: and then they don't. I'm not I'm not accusing anything,
Speaker 1: but seeing I mean, we've all seen that. Again. I
Speaker 1: don't I don't buy this one. But if we're going
Speaker 1: to run down that avenue. I can see how it
Speaker 1: could have played out bad, whereas in his head was
Speaker 1: very simple, walk in, knockout suit, take take Tina, and
Speaker 1: get out, and instead it turns into a blood bath. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: I gotta say he lacked out because usually when people
Speaker 1: commit really stupid off the cuff crimes like that, especially
Speaker 1: multiple murders, they almost always get caught. Yeah that's what
Speaker 1: a few they got away with it? If that's what?
Speaker 1: If that's I'm still not sure that Marty did this
Speaker 1: at all. Next, Next there are the three of the
Speaker 1: three young boys in the bedroom. Did it? But yeah,
Speaker 1: somebody actually actually got this one off of Redhead somebody
Speaker 1: sometimes I love Reddit. Uh well, actually they got to
Speaker 1: put it out there, said you know this this this
Speaker 1: kind of makes sense. But but really, come on, it
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense that they were too young, they had
Speaker 1: no move. Well I guess, okay, so like young kids
Speaker 1: do dump things sometimes thinking they're playing right, they think
Speaker 1: it's like fun. But in reality, now that was the
Speaker 1: time when I was a kid, We're having a sleepover
Speaker 1: and we got hammers and killed a family. Well, we
Speaker 1: didn't mean to mean he was an accident. No. I
Speaker 1: think the thing is that if you think that's fun
Speaker 1: at ages five through twelve, you're probably going to exhibit
Speaker 1: some of those tendencies later in life too. It sounds
Speaker 1: like these boys didn't ever do they would all be
Speaker 1: in prison for sure or hopefully. I mean, that's that's
Speaker 1: the beginning of you know, psychotic behavior. And you would
Speaker 1: think that there would have been a lot of missing
Speaker 1: cats and dogs and stuff like that. This this is
Speaker 1: the build up stage, not the beginning. Tested out not
Speaker 1: to kill your first human being. Yeah. So anyway, I
Speaker 1: thought it was a fun theory, so I thought i'd
Speaker 1: put it in there. Thank you for that. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: a little boy with murdering people another theory? Um funny games? Yeah,
Speaker 1: another serious Charles Ing and Leonard Lake. Uh these have
Speaker 1: you heard of these guys? Yeah, vicious, a couple of
Speaker 1: vicious serial killers. They had. Leonard Lake had a place
Speaker 1: in uh near not in but near Willseyville, California, which
Speaker 1: is about a hundred miles south of Ketty. And he
Speaker 1: had this kind of was kind of a fairly remote
Speaker 1: cabin and he had built himself a dungeon next to
Speaker 1: the cabin that he and then yeah, and build dungeons. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I never want to know. Yeah, they would. What these
Speaker 1: guys would do is they would abduct like a family
Speaker 1: or a group of people. They would usually kill them
Speaker 1: in and the babies fast, you know, because they didn't
Speaker 1: they need them. But they keep the women around and
Speaker 1: then rape them and torture them horribly, and that eventually
Speaker 1: murdered them too. This is like, what's that movie Hostile?
Speaker 1: I don't watch movies like that. I don't either, That's
Speaker 1: why I'm asking. This makes me think of like the
Speaker 1: crap I see in the previews of movies like that. Yeah, anyway,
Speaker 1: but as far as it being the pair of them,
Speaker 1: but yeah, if you if you do a little googling
Speaker 1: on these two, yeah they had they had a real
Speaker 1: crime spree there. They killed a bunch of people pretty
Speaker 1: horribly too. But you gotta rule Charles hang out because
Speaker 1: as far as I was able to find, he was
Speaker 1: in prison until night two. That's just like a correction
Speaker 1: has gone wrong situation that Yeah, you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: if somebody's already been in jail and then gets released
Speaker 1: and goes on a rape, torture, murder spree for a
Speaker 1: couple of years, I feel like something failed there. Well,
Speaker 1: he was in he was in a military prison, so
Speaker 1: they weren't really trying to rehabilitate him. Yeah. Yeah, But
Speaker 1: he got out of prison in nineteen eighty two. He's
Speaker 1: been in contact with Leonard Lake already. They already knew
Speaker 1: each other, and Lay invited him to come up there
Speaker 1: and live at his cabin, and you know, they just
Speaker 1: to hang out up there and just occasionally, you know,
Speaker 1: go out and find some innocent people to abduct and
Speaker 1: murder horribly like what I'm saying, In could not have
Speaker 1: been involved. And by the way, at this point he
Speaker 1: was Leonard Lake, who is the guy I'm putting forth
Speaker 1: as a suspect, A possible, remotely possible suspect, was not
Speaker 1: yet Inisconsin's a little remote cabin. It's possible. I'm not
Speaker 1: saying he lived in Kitty, by the way, he didn't,
Speaker 1: but who knows. Maybe he was driving through Highway seventies
Speaker 1: spots a couple of teenage boys hitchhiking, picks them up,
Speaker 1: takes them back. Because the murders that he and Charles
Speaker 1: Inn committed together were incredibly vicious, and let's let's face it,
Speaker 1: the Kiddy murders were also incredibly vicious. I have no evidence,
Speaker 1: no proof whatsoever that it was actually him, but it
Speaker 1: makes sense because Tina was the one that was abducted.
Speaker 1: Now he's he's he's mobile, he doesn't have a dungeon
Speaker 1: or anything like that. He can only take one person
Speaker 1: with him. You take the smallest, Yeah, you take the smallest,
Speaker 1: You take the smallest one. So yeah, the weakest of
Speaker 1: the bunch. Yeah, yeah, take her. And of course he
Speaker 1: doesn't have his dungeons, so he can't. He's so he's
Speaker 1: got to just take her somewhere and you know, Tork
Speaker 1: tore her and then murder her and leave her the
Speaker 1: other ones he killed on the spot. And then that's
Speaker 1: what they would do again. They would they would kill
Speaker 1: the people that they weren't interested in raping first. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I feel I feel like and Lake are the equivalent
Speaker 1: of Devon. Last week, when we talked about the McCann case,
Speaker 1: there was the random guy that lived in Spain that
Speaker 1: was listed as a suspect in Germany. Can't pronounce yes
Speaker 1: because well, this is somebody who years later we know
Speaker 1: is a not Tory is bad person that was in
Speaker 1: the same general area exactly. That's that's my same feeling
Speaker 1: about this. There's president for it, though. I mean, oftentimes
Speaker 1: you find after you know a serial killer has been caught,
Speaker 1: you find, oh, well, they also lived in this area
Speaker 1: where these murders that are kind of similar or not
Speaker 1: totally similar, happened a couple of years before. It's that
Speaker 1: testing the water's face. Yeah, I'm not saying it's it's not,
Speaker 1: but that's that's my initial impression. Yeah, I think it's
Speaker 1: definitely something. I have really no evidence for it, but
Speaker 1: it just seems to me that, you know, I would
Speaker 1: think Leonard Lake is as strong as suspect as Marty
Speaker 1: Smart because Mrty Smart, for you, even though he was
Speaker 1: kind of screwed up and had an anger problem, he
Speaker 1: you know, as far as I can tell, he didn't
Speaker 1: show the kind of viciousness that it would have taken.
Speaker 1: All you have to do is go look at the
Speaker 1: crime scene photos to kind of understand what we're talking.
Speaker 1: Vicious is the exact actually the word, yes, because it's
Speaker 1: not to make a joke, but it was overkill. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was. It was absolute. The over the top was
Speaker 1: what was going on. It was it was just it
Speaker 1: wasn't just getting the job done. It was sadistic. Sadistic,
Speaker 1: But that's one of the things. It's a weird thing
Speaker 1: in favor of Martin not being responsible. Is that on
Speaker 1: in the tapes with him from the cops, he's like,
Speaker 1: I I don't understand how somebody could do that. If
Speaker 1: I had somebody to kill, I'd get in, I'd get
Speaker 1: it done, and i'd get out. I wouldn't do all
Speaker 1: this other stuff, which, okay, well, maybe that's you know,
Speaker 1: him leading the path to defend himself, to lead them off.
Speaker 1: But at the same time he doesn't sound he sounds
Speaker 1: like he just saying, like, dude, that was so weird.
Speaker 1: Why would you do that in a normal conversational tone
Speaker 1: that pass into it? Yeah, exactly, exactly. The and you know,
Speaker 1: remember only one was gagged, so it was it was
Speaker 1: Sue Sharp that was gagged. The boys were the boys.
Speaker 1: The boys were knocked out. Yeah, the boys got cocked
Speaker 1: out pretty fast, it did. Yeah. But yeah, it looked
Speaker 1: like Sue was alive for a while, out of conscious.
Speaker 1: And again it's quite possible if she had to witness
Speaker 1: the murders of those two boys. Well, and there was
Speaker 1: a lot of blood on the bottom of her feet,
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean, you know, somebody's blood. The one thing,
Speaker 1: thankfully that I was really surprised about was there was
Speaker 1: no sexual misconduct in this whole thing. Well like thankfully
Speaker 1: rape never came into this as far as as far
Speaker 1: as far as they found out in any of it.
Speaker 1: For the victims that were left in the cabin that
Speaker 1: was not there, and I was that's one of the
Speaker 1: that's the weird thing. Okay, Well, if the boys are fine,
Speaker 1: Sue's fine, and Tina's taken, it doesn't make sense. You
Speaker 1: would think that somebody that was on a let's kill
Speaker 1: him and have a little set choll funds free wouldn't
Speaker 1: have cared. But that's that's very general, very vague. I
Speaker 1: understand that before anybody lights up and as a heyday
Speaker 1: and sends me a Wikipedia article about weird perversions, I
Speaker 1: know that that's not exactly right, but it just seems
Speaker 1: like you would have seen more indications of something like
Speaker 1: that in the whole thing, which is I mean, personally,
Speaker 1: I hope that you know they took Tino away and
Speaker 1: then did her in quietly, but I don't know, I
Speaker 1: don't understand why they would have done that. I'm saying
Speaker 1: what I would like to hear. That's that's what I
Speaker 1: would like to believe too. But yeah, I can't conceivably
Speaker 1: think of a reason why. But anyway, do you guys
Speaker 1: have any more theories? Thankfully? No, yeah, exactly case. I'm sorry. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, I know it's but it was time for
Speaker 1: us to do a hideous it's been a while, it was. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: I don't think we're gonna be able to solve this one, unfortunately,
Speaker 1: unless we go down there with our magnifying glasses. I
Speaker 1: think that it's yeah, cabin did the cabalist demo, Yeah,
Speaker 1: something like that. They were condemned and they finally bulldozed him. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I don't think they were probably people lining up
Speaker 1: to go live in that cabin anyway. I think there
Speaker 1: was one family did move in afterwards, and actually maybe
Speaker 1: they didn't know, but you know, I mean, you've seen
Speaker 1: the crime scene photographs the cabin. The cabin was an armpit.
Speaker 1: It was it was. I would have to be pretty
Speaker 1: damn poor before I would live in that place. Take
Speaker 1: your college dorm room and put wood paneling and ugly
Speaker 1: seventies carpet in it, and then twenty years of dirt
Speaker 1: and we're talking not wood paneling, the nice stuff with
Speaker 1: the stuff that's made out of kind of press board,
Speaker 1: with the lambing of stuff that the ugly, nasty stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, I know the stuff you find in nineteen
Speaker 1: fifties trailers. Yeah, the kind I grew up in. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I know that. Yeah. The place was dump so glad
Speaker 1: I didn't have to live there. And I'm glad I
Speaker 1: didn't live there because i'd be dead, so thank god. Alright, son, No, nope, nope,
Speaker 1: out there is Okay. Well, I think that's it for
Speaker 1: this week, so sorry, apologize. I know we usually solve things,
Speaker 1: but not this week. Sorry. Yeah. I think according to
Speaker 1: our drinking game, that means that you have to like
Speaker 1: finish like five beers or something something. I'm sorry about that.
Speaker 1: Hung over. Yeah no, well I gotta do it. I
Speaker 1: want to get people drink. All right, So let me
Speaker 1: give you some some very very important information. First of all,
Speaker 1: you want to find our website. You'll find links about
Speaker 1: this story as well as the story itself to be downloaded.
Speaker 1: That's thinking Sideways podcast dot com. You can leave comments, uh,
Speaker 1: and of course listen to episodes. Of course, you can
Speaker 1: also find us on iTunes, which is probably where you're
Speaker 1: finding us. So remember, subscribe, give us a review, give
Speaker 1: us a comment. We like that stuff. You can stream us, uh,
Speaker 1: pretty much anywhere, and I mean, I don't know how
Speaker 1: many streaming services there are nowadays a lot of them,
Speaker 1: so I find one of those that stream us. You
Speaker 1: can find us on Facebook. You can also find us
Speaker 1: on Twitter where we are Thinking Sideways, not thinking, but
Speaker 1: thinking sideways. And if you want to send us an email,
Speaker 1: you can send us an email at Thinking Sideways Podcast
Speaker 1: at gmail dot com. Um, you know, we suggestions are great.
Speaker 1: If you just want to tell us how awesome we are,
Speaker 1: that's great. If you have constructive criticism, that's good too. Oh,
Speaker 1: don't forget. On the website, theory is on the right
Speaker 1: hand panel. The link for shirts because we do have
Speaker 1: an iPhone and iPhone cases and we had a couple
Speaker 1: of different things, but those are There's a link for
Speaker 1: Zazzle that takes you right to our store, so those
Speaker 1: are there as well, which reminds me I need to
Speaker 1: buy my shirt. Yeah, yeah, we have to buy our
Speaker 1: own shirts. No, I know it's zazz Actually. Zazzle wrote
Speaker 1: us an email just yesterday saying they're running out of stock.
Speaker 1: Better buy your T shirts and mugson. Yeah. I better
Speaker 1: be the same. Yeah. Alright, Well that's it for this week.
Speaker 1: Another mystery down. You guys have any remaining thoughts. I
Speaker 1: really don't want to have to walk to my car
Speaker 1: right now. Let's let's I'll huddle in the bathroom. Yeah,
Speaker 1: lock the door. Well, there's plenty of water. We'll take
Speaker 1: some cans of food. It'll be safe. Alright, Bye, guys,
Speaker 1: All right, so long for this week. Bye. Why are
Speaker 1: you giving me that weird look?