1 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:04,760 Speaker 1: Strange Arrivals is a production of I Heart three D 2 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: audio for full exposure listen with headphones used from time 3 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: to time of hiding information about UFO. What do you 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,960 Speaker 1: have to say directment whose charges are absolutely untrue? Actually, 5 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: the United States Air Force releases statistics on the UFO 6 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: phenomena through the Department of Defense Press Test periodically, and 7 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: we've always honored accredited media when they want to investigate 8 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 1: a given specific siting. There's nothing to hide. There's nothing 9 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 1: to hide it all. Is there anything in the files, 10 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:42,559 Speaker 1: either classified or unclassified, that would indicate that there may 11 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: be extra terrestrial visitors overhead? What's to all? The protect 12 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 1: is completely class and there's nothing in the record to 13 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 1: could indicate that we have been visited by any of fantacism. 14 00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: How does the Air Force look upon people who make 15 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: full for to the UFO. They look at him as 16 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: qualified a. Yes, they do look on him as qualified observers. Actually, 17 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 1: most people who report a UFO sighting patreontic citizens who 18 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:18,959 Speaker 1: have been mystified by something that they've seen. I'm Toby 19 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 1: Ball and this is Strange Arrivals. A six months after 20 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 1: the assassination of President Kennedy a police officer named Lonnie 21 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: Zamora chased a speeding car down a desert stretch of 22 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: highway outside the town of Socorro, New Mexico. While in pursuit, 23 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: he heard a roaring sound, and looking to the sowest, 24 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: saw a flame in the sky, maybe a half mile 25 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 1: in the distance. He knew that there was a dynamite 26 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 1: shack somewhere in that area and figured it must have exploded. 27 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: He abandoned his pursuit of the speeding car and drove 28 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: in the direction of the flame. In a report about 29 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: the incident filed by Colonel Eric de Jacquier of the 30 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: United States Air Force, he has the more claiming that 31 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: the flame was quote bluish and sort of orange and color. However, 32 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 1: he could not tell the size of the flame, which 33 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 1: was slowly descending. The flame was of a narrow type 34 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 1: and streamed down into a sort of funnel shape end quote. 35 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 1: Zamora drove slowly westward on a gravel road. Here he 36 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 1: is describing what happened next in an interview with K. 37 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 1: S R. C. S. Walter Schrode, I went up the 38 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: road for about has a mile. Again, UH came up 39 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 1: to this a little balcon deal there on the side 40 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 1: of the old night for a glance about the of 41 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: the window. Look to my lad in the white object 42 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:23,080 Speaker 1: on the ground. Far thought it might be a card 43 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 1: that turned over. Also really the real thing. Harry going 44 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: out there to investigate. Maybe somebody would be hurt. Uh 45 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: that diamond saw his white at a jape luke an object. 46 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 1: It was a luminum white in color, though he pointed 47 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 1: out not chrome. Photos taken later of the site show 48 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 1: a desert scene, low scrub, sandy soil, rocks, distant mountains. 49 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: He's a half mile or more from town. He briefly 50 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 1: stopped his cruiser and saw two figures by the egg 51 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 1: shaped object to what appeared to be people dressed in 52 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 1: white uniforms with they have gentmts on like spaceman or anything. Low. 53 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: I would say, there are people. I just I saw 54 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 1: something white, white color like he didn't. You could not 55 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 1: identify them as actually being a human being. And you 56 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 1: and I were they two of them? I would say 57 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 1: were two, because one with some fronds and the other 58 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 1: talked to him back so more a radio back to 59 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 1: headquarters that he was going to investigate. He lost sight 60 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:38,720 Speaker 1: of the figures in the white overalls. Leaving his car, 61 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 1: he began to walk towards the object, which he now 62 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 1: saw was resting on two outward slanting legs, but his 63 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:51,599 Speaker 1: approach was cut short by a sudden loud noise. When 64 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: it took off, it made a loud, loud, growing sound 65 00:04:56,320 --> 00:05:05,720 Speaker 1: that the very low noise rower panicked. Zamora turned and 66 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: ran in the opposite direction. He banged his leg on 67 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: the bumper of the cruiser, fell to the ground, losing 68 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:17,719 Speaker 1: his glasses, and scrambled to get further away. The object 69 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:21,840 Speaker 1: emitted a bluish orange flame. Zamora said he was concerned 70 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 1: it might blow up, but instead it rose into the air, 71 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:29,279 Speaker 1: and then after it got up near about the sound 72 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 1: seemed to disappeared. The sound was It was very very 73 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 1: quiet there with the craft in the air and silently 74 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: moving away from him. He noticed a marking on the side, 75 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 1: which a second report has him describing as being read 76 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: about a foot to a foot and a half in 77 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:53,799 Speaker 1: height and shaped like a quote crescent with a vertical 78 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 1: arrow and horizontal lines underneath. Samura claimed that the object 79 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,720 Speaker 1: then aimed in altitude and moved off to the south. 80 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 1: Later in this radio interview, Walter Schrode asked this strange question. 81 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 1: It wasn't dragging anything. We had a report that dragging 82 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: something as that land was dragging log n. Shrode said 83 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:26,479 Speaker 1: he heard reports that the object was dragging something. Zamora 84 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:32,720 Speaker 1: denied it. The interview ended abruptly when Zamora said, excuse, 85 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 1: we wanted some military people that the ones up to me. Now, 86 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: let pole when you have the military people are here 87 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 1: from Ulefo to talk to you right now and ask 88 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 1: you some more questions about this. The military people who 89 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: had come to speak with him were from the US 90 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: Air Force, and we're working on Project blue Book, the 91 00:06:56,760 --> 00:07:02,040 Speaker 1: effort to investigate and explain uf fositeings. While Blue Book 92 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 1: officially ended in nineteen sixty nine, it has lived on 93 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: in popular culture. At least three television shows, Project UFO 94 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 1: Dark Skies in the History Channels show Project blue Book 95 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: have centered on Bluebook investigations, and it is found in 96 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 1: countless other shows, movies, and books. Ezekiel saw the wheel. 97 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: This is the wheel, he said, he saw. These are 98 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 1: unidentified flying objects that people say they are seeing. Now, 99 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 1: are they proof that we are being visited by civilizations 100 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: from other stars? Are just? What are they? The United 101 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: States Air Force began an investigation of this high strangeness 102 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: in a search for the truth. What you were about 103 00:07:54,240 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 1: to see is part of that twenty years search. The 104 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 1: UFO era is generally considered to start in when a 105 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: pilot named Kenneth Arnold saw nine metallic flying discs traveling 106 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 1: at high speeds near Mount Rainier. His story hit the newspapers. 107 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 1: Two days later, The Chicago Sun for one ran a 108 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 1: page two story headlined supersonic flying saucers cited by Idaho 109 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 1: pilot speed estimated at twelve hundred miles an hour when 110 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:35,680 Speaker 1: seeing ten thousand feet up near Mount Rainier. Two weeks later, 111 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 1: in New Mexico, the public information officer at Roswell Army 112 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: Air Force Base issued a press release stating that the 113 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 1: five hundred and ninth Operations Group had recovered a flying 114 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 1: disc that had crashed on ranch land. The Roswell crash 115 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: is probably the best snow own of all UFO stories. 116 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 1: We'll get to it later in this series. But while 117 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:10,439 Speaker 1: these are the two most famous UFO incidents from ninety seven, 118 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 1: they are far from the only ones. This is Air 119 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 1: Force Captain Hector Quintinilla, speaking in nineteen sixty four. At 120 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: the time, he was the head of Project Blue Book. 121 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 1: You're nine. We had a rash of unidentified flying objects 122 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 1: we recorded to the Air Force. A researcher named Ted 123 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 1: Blocher set out to document just how many UFO reports 124 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 1: there were that year. On January one, nixty seven, he 125 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:46,719 Speaker 1: made public his findings in a book called Report on 126 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 1: the UFO Wave of ninety seven, published by the National 127 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena or NIGHTCAP, a leading civilian 128 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 1: UFO research organization. It was just the fantastic the number 129 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 1: of cases that he found. He found eight hundred thirty cases, 130 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 1: initially found well over a thousand. When he finished, he 131 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: published a book on the eight cases that he had done, 132 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 1: and I got interested in what he was doing. My 133 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 1: name is jan Aldrich. I am retired from the Army 134 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:27,559 Speaker 1: with twenty five years and I'm retired from the Post 135 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 1: Office twenty five years. During my army career, I worked 136 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 1: in meteorology, intelligence and security, safety and personnel, so I 137 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 1: have quite a bit of experience in all these areas, 138 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: and I started looking at newspapers to find more cases. 139 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 1: Bloacher only done about a hundred and seventy newspapers in 140 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:02,199 Speaker 1: the United States and Canada. I continued this on, and 141 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 1: he continued on, we continue to find more and more cases. 142 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 1: There was about eleven thousand newspapers in North America in 143 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: just a few had been scanned, had looked for items, 144 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 1: and it was obvious that if there's eight hundred items 145 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:28,199 Speaker 1: in about two hundred newspapers, what are there going to 146 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 1: be in a thousand, two thousand, five thousand. I said, 147 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: my goal is doing three thousand newspapers with the help 148 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:39,599 Speaker 1: of people all over the world looking through newspapers, and 149 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 1: we were able to do about five thousand total newspapers. 150 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 1: Those Some of the cases were admittedly trivial. These were, 151 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:54,359 Speaker 1: after all, the earliest days of the UFO era. Aldridge, 152 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 1: Bloacher and others were able to identify about three thousand 153 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 1: sightings reported in nine three thousand. Is is interesting what Bloatcher, 154 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 1: myself and other people that looked at what we found, 155 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 1: Amain Michelle, Dr James McDonald at the University of Arizona 156 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:25,199 Speaker 1: and other people said, Oh, the UFO activity that we 157 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 1: know of currently existed in except maybe abductions. This is 158 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 1: kind of a revelation. The phenomenon does not evolve. In 159 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 1: other words, almost anything that you think of when you 160 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 1: think about UFOs today turned up in the cases from 161 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: except for abductions. Again. Captain Hector Quentinilla on the seven 162 00:12:56,040 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 1: UFO sightings. During this time, Jene Sanford directed the Air 163 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:06,679 Speaker 1: Force to establish an office to try to determine what 164 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 1: these unidentified flying objects were. The program that became Project 165 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:18,439 Speaker 1: blue Book started out as Project sign. The program is 166 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 1: threefold and the Air Force interest in you FOLS is 167 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 1: first to determine if a possible threat to the security 168 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:34,079 Speaker 1: of the United States exists. Second, to determine the technical 169 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: or scientific characteristics of any such youthfols. Third, to try 170 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 1: to explain are identified. All youthol sightings reported to the 171 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 1: services the U FOLS as such do not pose any 172 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:54,079 Speaker 1: threat to the security of the United States. I do 173 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: get a number of reports from people who claim that 174 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 1: they have um seeing little green men. Retired Air Force 175 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 1: pilot James mcgahey the program was started primarily out of 176 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 1: concern over security issues that possibly had nothing to do 177 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 1: with alien spacecraft. It had to do is something going 178 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 1: on in the airspace United States. Is possibly some foreign 179 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 1: country doing something, possibly the Soviet Union and that's really 180 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: why it started. Jan Aldredge Project site had a lot 181 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: of engineers and aviation experts involved with it. It involved 182 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 1: lots of people, and it probably as far as the 183 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: military goes, is probably the biggest project. It became fairly 184 00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 1: apparent very early on that people were seeing all kinds 185 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 1: of things in the sky, but most of them could 186 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 1: easily be explained with prosaic explanations of natural phenomena, misidentification, 187 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 1: and various auto connectic effects, various other psychological effects and 188 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: visual effects. And the Air Force said, why are we 189 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 1: doing this? We don't want to be doing this. Projects 190 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 1: Signs name changed in to Project Grudge, and with the 191 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 1: name change came a change in direction, a certainty that 192 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 1: what people were seeing we're not extraterrestrial craft. The attitude 193 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 1: was now that we can explain all these things away, 194 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 1: either as hoaxes, hallucinations or man made objects. And that 195 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 1: was their theme song for about up till the middle 196 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 1: of fifty one. After January it changed its name to 197 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 1: Project blue Book. They had a bunch of reserve Air 198 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 1: Force officers who were called into service because of the 199 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: Korean War and they were put on this so ahead 200 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: about eight eight or nine people that we're working on 201 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 1: UFOs in that era up to all about early nineteen 202 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: fifty three. Then these people started to be released from 203 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 1: active duty service. The program was never very big. Most 204 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 1: of the time it was only five people, one officer 205 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: or a couple enlisted people as secretary and one consultant, 206 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 1: j Allen Heineck. At the beginning of their interest in UFOs, 207 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 1: the Air Force contacted Jay Allan Heinek at the time 208 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: and astronomer at Ohio State University to see if he 209 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 1: might be interested in consulting on what was then Project sign. 210 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: They understood that some percentage of the cases would be 211 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: traceable back to stars, meteors, and other such phenomena. He 212 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: liked to claim that he was like the innocent bystander 213 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:11,680 Speaker 1: who got shot accidentally. This is in the late nineteen forties. 214 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:15,920 Speaker 1: He was teaching astronomy at Ohio State and one day 215 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 1: a couple of Air Force people from right Field It's 216 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:24,639 Speaker 1: not right Patterson Dayton came to visit him at the university. Hi, 217 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: I'm Mark O'Connell. I am the author of The Close 218 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 1: Encounters Man. How one man made the world believe in UFOs. 219 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 1: It's a biography of Dr J. Allen Heineck, who is 220 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:37,200 Speaker 1: one of the best known, if not the best known 221 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:41,920 Speaker 1: UFO experts of all time. After making small talk for 222 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 1: a while, they said, hey, so what do you know 223 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 1: about these UFOs. Well, UFOs were a new thing in 224 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:52,639 Speaker 1: that time period, and Heineck, being a serious scientists, just 225 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 1: kind of shrugged it off and said, well, you know, 226 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:56,200 Speaker 1: I think the whole thing is kind of stupid. I 227 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 1: think it's just a phase. People are still kind of 228 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 1: jumpy after Pearl Harbor, are worried about sneak attacks and 229 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: these are of force. People said, well, we have a 230 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 1: job for you if you're interested, because we have a 231 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: whole pile of these UFO reports and we don't know 232 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:09,440 Speaker 1: what to do with them, and we'd like to have 233 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 1: an astronomer look at them and tell us if these 234 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 1: people are really just seeing ordinary astronomical objects that they're 235 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:24,119 Speaker 1: just misinterpreting somehow. And heine said sure. I mean, basically 236 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:27,679 Speaker 1: to him, it was easy money. He Nick is an 237 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: interesting and important figure in UFO lore, and we will 238 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:34,919 Speaker 1: spend more time looking at his life and career as 239 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 1: a UFO investigator, but for now, what's important is that 240 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 1: he was involved in an effort to look at the 241 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:46,920 Speaker 1: information that had been collected during Projects Sign Project Grudge 242 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 1: in the early days of Project Blue Book. This effort 243 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 1: was known informally as the Robertson Panel. In the CIA 244 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:02,160 Speaker 1: put together a panel, a Committee on the the Scientific 245 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 1: Study of UFOs something like that was the official title. 246 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:08,359 Speaker 1: And it's one of those things where the report was 247 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 1: classified for a long time. It wasn't until you know, 248 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 1: decades later that the public got to see the report. 249 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:19,920 Speaker 1: But the Robertson Panel was dedicated to looking at whether 250 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 1: or not the UFO phenomenon might be a threat. I 251 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 1: am Aaron Gullias. I'm a history teacher and writer and 252 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:33,639 Speaker 1: the host of the Saucer Life podcast. Like most defense 253 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:37,880 Speaker 1: and intelligence establishment efforts to investigate UFOs in the nineteen fifties, 254 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 1: this was mostly concerned about not about determining what the 255 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 1: things in the sky are, but determining whether or not 256 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:48,159 Speaker 1: the things in the sky are a danger to national 257 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:52,120 Speaker 1: security or something that needs to be dealt with immediately. 258 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 1: James mcgahey. At that time, they were again concerned about 259 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:04,640 Speaker 1: Soviet disinformation because the Soviet unions since in Brown nine, 260 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: has spent a huge amount of time trying to see disinformation, 261 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 1: trying to disrupt society in the United States. The KJB 262 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 1: at various other organizations just trying to make trouble inside 263 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:26,240 Speaker 1: the United States, whether physical trouble or psychological trouble, and 264 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 1: the CIA was very concerned that the Soviet Union might 265 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:35,879 Speaker 1: use UFOs as a way to spread panic in the 266 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:41,359 Speaker 1: United States. The Robertson Panel was so named because it 267 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 1: was chaired by Howard Robertson, a highly respected physicist and 268 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 1: mathematician at cal Tech who also worked on a number 269 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: of government and military programs. He was asked by the 270 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 1: CIA to assemble a team of experts to evaluate the 271 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 1: UFO evidence to date. The panel comprised mostly other physicists, 272 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:07,159 Speaker 1: along with a CIA officer who was also a missile 273 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 1: expert and served as the panel secretary. And it was 274 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:14,440 Speaker 1: very disappointed right off the bat with the Robertson panel 275 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 1: because he was invited in a sort of a guest speaker, 276 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 1: but he wasn't part of the panel, and he legitimately 277 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,439 Speaker 1: felt that he probably should have been part of that panel. 278 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 1: So it was handled very very informally without much serious intent, 279 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:32,639 Speaker 1: and iin it just basically felt like when he went 280 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 1: into interview with them, when he gave testimony to this panel, 281 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:40,080 Speaker 1: that he was just sort of dismissed, and you know, 282 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 1: they didn't really take anything he said very seriously. In all, 283 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,440 Speaker 1: the panel met for twelve hours over four days and 284 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:52,200 Speaker 1: examined twenty three cases, or about one percent of the 285 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 1: total number that were available. At one point, they watched 286 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:00,200 Speaker 1: a movie of some UFOs taken by an air worse 287 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 1: photographer military photographer that's actually, even today is still pretty 288 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:08,159 Speaker 1: remarkable film to watch. They've projected the film on a 289 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 1: wall in the conference room where you couldn't make out 290 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:13,159 Speaker 1: much detail, and all the members of the panel said, oh, well, 291 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:16,399 Speaker 1: those are obviously seagulls. Well, this took place in Utah, 292 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 1: very far from any oceans, so I don't know where 293 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 1: they thought seagulls were coming from. So that was the 294 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 1: Robertson panel. Heinek was pretty disappointed in how that worked out. 295 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 1: Aaron Gullies. The Robertson panel concluded that you know, physically, 296 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 1: sort of operationally, there was no real danger from the UFOs, 297 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 1: but the concept of the UFOs, the concept of invaders 298 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:48,399 Speaker 1: from outer space, the concerns about people not knowing what 299 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 1: these things might be. In the government not knowing or 300 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 1: not sharing what these things might be, that there might 301 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:57,639 Speaker 1: be some negative effects on the public with regard to 302 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 1: keeping them focused on the Soviet Union, as you know, 303 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:05,880 Speaker 1: geopolitical enemy number one. They worried that that the UFOs 304 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: might be a distraction if if, sort of the popular 305 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 1: conception of UFOs as alien craft continued to to be 306 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:18,240 Speaker 1: on the rise. So among the recommendations the Robertson panel 307 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 1: made was to work on the educational side of things 308 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 1: to encourage media outlets to present their news stories and 309 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:31,159 Speaker 1: documentaries on on the UFOs as being essentially harmless, not 310 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:33,399 Speaker 1: a danger, not anything to worry about, to sort of 311 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 1: defang and devenomize the UFOs as an existential threat. The 312 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 1: recommendations weren't just to discourage the view that UFOs were 313 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 1: something to be concerned about, but also to encourage the 314 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,879 Speaker 1: development of skills to help people evaluate any information they 315 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:56,360 Speaker 1: were provided with. The CIA actually said in that report 316 00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:01,919 Speaker 1: that we should create a program to teach critical thinking 317 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: to the American public such that they will not be 318 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 1: easily swayed by disinformation and panic. The things that are real. 319 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 1: It's probably the best thing. The CIA ever said un 320 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: virtually it was instituted. So the Robertson panel ended up 321 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:27,639 Speaker 1: disregarding UFOs as physical entities. Might there have been a 322 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:31,159 Speaker 1: thumb on the scale. In reply to a letter from 323 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 1: James Klotts that was posted to the computer UFO network 324 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 1: on the Worldwide Web or Coupon, Robertson panel member Thornton 325 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:46,440 Speaker 1: Page wrote, quote, HP Robertson told us in the first 326 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 1: private No Outsiders session that our job was to reduce 327 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 1: public concern and show that UFO reports could be explained 328 00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 1: by conventional reasoning. End quote. There's no corroboration for this story, 329 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,639 Speaker 1: but it is interesting in what it implies about the 330 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 1: goals of the meetings. So the Robertson panel dismissed the 331 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:15,200 Speaker 1: notion that UFOs were real, physical objects or anything that 332 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 1: the public should be concerned about. And yet people continued 333 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,879 Speaker 1: to see things that they couldn't explain, and the Air 334 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:27,719 Speaker 1: Force kept investigating, And one of these investigations drew Alan 335 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 1: Heinik to the small town of Socorro, New Mexico, to 336 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 1: try to determine what a local policeman had seen in 337 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 1: the desert after the break strange arrivals will return in 338 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 1: a moment. So back to Lonnie Zamora and his sighting 339 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 1: in Socorro, New Mexico in ninety sixty four. Remember, Zamora 340 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:07,200 Speaker 1: had been chasing a speeding car on when he heard 341 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,440 Speaker 1: a roaring sound and saw flames descending from the sky. 342 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 1: He turned off the highway and came upon two white 343 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 1: clad figures outside an egg shaped craft. With another loud roar, 344 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 1: the craft took off again, flying low over the desert 345 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 1: before rising into the sky. The Air Force clearly felt 346 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 1: a sense of urgency to deal with this sighting. The 347 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,920 Speaker 1: first report on the case was filed two days after 348 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 1: the encounter on April. On April, a second report was 349 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 1: submitted on four days after the encounter. Alan Heinik was 350 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:52,920 Speaker 1: summoned to New Mexico to assist with the investigation. This 351 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:57,920 Speaker 1: is Heinik speaking with k s r C radio's Walter Schrode. 352 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 1: If you don't mind like to a here here so 353 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:07,200 Speaker 1: I see um whether you're common province might be on 354 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 1: this and I might ask any direct questions because I 355 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,399 Speaker 1: don't know why the questions you can cannot answer you 356 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 1: this opinion and and an honor to appreciate it very much. Well, yeah, 357 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,920 Speaker 1: first off, I should say there's no question of my 358 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 1: not being able to answer anything because I'm acting as 359 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:30,640 Speaker 1: u uh independent investigating might say. Um. But the fact 360 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 1: that I don't have anything to say the things that's 361 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 1: puggling to me is I'm sure it must be to 362 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 1: the folks around here. UM. I certainly believe that Zama 363 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 1: had a most interesting and significant experience, and I'm particularly 364 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,480 Speaker 1: interested in the tracks that were left and the analysis 365 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,399 Speaker 1: of the samples of material from those tracks. And until 366 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,920 Speaker 1: you know more about it, thus, all I can say, 367 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,160 Speaker 1: disappointing to you perhaps is something that right, I'm apposed 368 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:10,479 Speaker 1: as you are. From the beginning there was confusion as 369 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:14,640 Speaker 1: public statements by Heinich and the Air Force investigators were 370 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 1: at odds with those of Zamora and other locals. This 371 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:23,920 Speaker 1: is Lonnie Zamora with the ever President Walter Schrode. Schrode 372 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:29,160 Speaker 1: had asked Samora if the craft he saw bore any markings, Yes, 373 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:34,919 Speaker 1: they did not from them all, I didn't see the market. Well, 374 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 1: I went up closer to it. I did to the market, 375 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 1: and someone said that the markings that you saw it 376 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 1: was an upside down be with three lines running through 377 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 1: its group that goes They feel though the one who 378 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:52,960 Speaker 1: say doesn't marketing, and they don't want to say anything 379 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 1: about the markets or every more question you on, Matt, 380 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 1: and we run into an area that they don't want 381 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 1: to to talk about when you just say so. But 382 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 1: when Schrod interviewed Heinek, Heineck disputed that the Air Force 383 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 1: had put any restrictions on what Zamora could say. I 384 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:15,080 Speaker 1: was called by the Pentagon this morning, and there's an 385 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 1: Associated Press's report out to the effect that some Air 386 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 1: Force person had told Mr Zamara not to say anything 387 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:31,160 Speaker 1: about the lettering, and I was asked specifically to find 388 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 1: out whether this statement had been made, who made it 389 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 1: and all that sort of thing. Zamara tells me that 390 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 1: no one Air Force or no one else told him 391 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 1: not to say anything about it. But this is how 392 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:46,480 Speaker 1: these rumors get started. To emphasize the point that the 393 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 1: Pentagon had nothing to hide. Heinick described the marking as 394 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 1: related to him by Zamora. He said, Zamora quote described 395 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: it to me as an inverted V. Was sort of 396 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 1: a bar Across said earlier we heard that Samora described 397 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 1: it as a quote crescent with a vertical arrow and 398 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 1: horizontal lines underneath, which isn't exactly the same as what 399 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 1: Heineck says, but close enough that I don't think Heinek 400 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 1: is being intentionally misleading. Later in the interview, Schrode asked 401 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 1: Heineck Samoura had told them that there had been men 402 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 1: around the craft. I know that there were earlier reports 403 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 1: that he had seen people, but to me, he said 404 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 1: nothing specific about people that he describes seeing objects that 405 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 1: appeared to be in white coveralls. He indicated that he 406 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:46,400 Speaker 1: saw something along the side on the side of the 407 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 1: instrument of the device that resembled white cover rolls. Yes. 408 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,959 Speaker 1: But when Race Stanford, a NYECAP investigator who had come 409 00:30:56,000 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 1: to Skoro to look into Zamora's claims, asked lew Us Ridell, 410 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 1: the editor of a Sakora newspaper who had talked to 411 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 1: Zamora about the encounter, there is again this disconnect between 412 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,640 Speaker 1: the stories that Samora is telling and high Neck's assertions. 413 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 1: And talking to Dr I him by the Samori told 414 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 1: him nothing specific at all about seeing any men, imply 415 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 1: they hadn't even he hadn't even mentioned any men. He 416 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 1: later seemed to come down and say that you mentioned 417 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 1: cover all after very funny questioning by one of the 418 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 1: persons to his present. But did in this talk with 419 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 1: Zamara soon after the citing, since you were one of 420 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,760 Speaker 1: the first to be there, did he mentioned to you 421 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 1: that he actually saw a man or just cover off. 422 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 1: Um he really doesn't have did and he said there 423 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 1: were cool and even swimming bone bim men. But you 424 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 1: learnt to think so over go, he said to be 425 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 1: when you were still in the car. The one of 426 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 1: them a boat of a man objects had their BacT 427 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 1: to him and one of them turned around and not 428 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 1: him square in the face. That was the exact words. 429 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 1: And he very definitely uh deliso two men at at 430 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:31,080 Speaker 1: Obe and uh he said immediately m uh. They disappeared 431 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:35,840 Speaker 1: and kindly got in the plane from the side, from 432 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:40,960 Speaker 1: the west side, and the plane lifted up. And start 433 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:45,920 Speaker 1: of the investigation was made more difficult by a lack 434 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 1: of physical evidence. There were some shallow depressions where the 435 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 1: more I had seen the craft, and some of the 436 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 1: brushes of burn marks, but that was all. The Air 437 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 1: Force investigators at the scene listed the acts that they 438 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:05,000 Speaker 1: were able to establish. They were unable to find any 439 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 1: witnesses other than Zamora. There were no unidentified helicopters or 440 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 1: aircraft in the area at that time, and no unusual 441 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:18,960 Speaker 1: radar readings. The weather was windy but clear, so a 442 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 1: weather phenomenon was ruled out. There was no evidence of 443 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:26,200 Speaker 1: markings of any sort in the area other than the 444 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 1: shallow depressions where the craft had been. Soil samples taken 445 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 1: from the site disclosed no foreign material or unusual radiation 446 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 1: and burn brush, so no evidence of chemical propellants. There 447 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:45,040 Speaker 1: was no evidence presented that the object was extraterrestrial in 448 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 1: origin or represented a threat to the security of the 449 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 1: United States. But despite these findings, there was a general 450 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 1: belief that Zamora had seen something that he hadn't hallucinated, 451 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:04,480 Speaker 1: and he wasn't lying. Heinich wrote that Zamora, although not 452 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:09,360 Speaker 1: overly bright or articulate, is basically sincere, honest and reliable. 453 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,760 Speaker 1: He would not be capable of contriving a complete hoax, 454 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 1: nor would his temperament indicate that he would have the 455 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:20,840 Speaker 1: slightest interest in such. In fact, Heinik was sure that 456 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 1: Zamora had seen a physical object and that it was 457 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:29,800 Speaker 1: important to determine what exactly that object was given the 458 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 1: proximity to Air Force Bass such as Holloman and Kurtland. 459 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,239 Speaker 1: The investigation focused on whether the craft could have been 460 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:42,760 Speaker 1: a helicopter, an experimental lunar module, or a vertical takeoff 461 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 1: and landing aircraft, a kind of hybrid vehicle that could 462 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 1: take off like a helicopter and then fly like a plane. 463 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,879 Speaker 1: A considerable amount of space in the Project Bluebook file 464 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:58,879 Speaker 1: about the Zamora case is taken up with letters sent 465 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:01,959 Speaker 1: to try to det herman if any of those types 466 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:05,759 Speaker 1: of aircraft might have been active in that area at 467 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:10,640 Speaker 1: the date and time of Samora's encounter. These inquiries did 468 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:14,960 Speaker 1: not turn up an explanation. Could it have been a hoax? 469 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 1: That is some people's preferred theory. See Lonnie Zamora wasn't 470 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:25,240 Speaker 1: just a so Cora police officer. He was an actual 471 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,160 Speaker 1: police officer in the police force. But he was also 472 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:31,440 Speaker 1: a campus police officer at the New Mexico Institute of 473 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 1: Mining and Technology, which is a very respectable college there, 474 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:40,200 Speaker 1: smallish but respected. Hi. I am Brian Dunning. I'm best 475 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:44,439 Speaker 1: known for the Skeptoid podcast at skeptoid dot com, where 476 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:49,320 Speaker 1: we take a science based look at urban legends. It 477 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 1: was like a character in a movie. Okay, he's the 478 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:53,480 Speaker 1: guy that all the students would make fun of. He 479 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 1: was extremely rigid, he was overweight. I mean they would 480 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:00,719 Speaker 1: make fun of him. And what the president of the 481 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:04,400 Speaker 1: university always said, it was, Yes, this was some of 482 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:06,759 Speaker 1: our students. They were making fun of him. They were 483 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,360 Speaker 1: hoaxing him. They put a big balloon out in the desert. 484 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:13,279 Speaker 1: They tricked him into chasing one of their guys up 485 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 1: this dirt road, and once he got there, they put 486 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:19,719 Speaker 1: this balloon with some flashing lights on it and they 487 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,960 Speaker 1: towed it off at high speed, following behind another car 488 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:25,920 Speaker 1: and another road, something like you might expect out of 489 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:30,719 Speaker 1: the movie Animal House. Okay, remember this odd question that 490 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:35,920 Speaker 1: Walter Schroede asked Lonnie Zamora. It wasn't dragging anything. We 491 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:46,000 Speaker 1: had a report that dragging something. It makes me wonder if, 492 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:50,840 Speaker 1: in fact, the UFO wasn't dragging something but was actually 493 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:57,360 Speaker 1: being towed. But Zamora seems to deny this. Regardless, there's 494 00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:01,759 Speaker 1: documentation that a student hoax was suspected, at least by 495 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:06,239 Speaker 1: some people. The president of the New Mexico Institute of 496 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:12,280 Speaker 1: Mining and Technology was named Sterling Colgate. In he received 497 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,120 Speaker 1: a letter from his friend, the chemist and winner of 498 00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:20,000 Speaker 1: two Nobel Prizes, Linus Pauling, that included a question about 499 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:25,239 Speaker 1: the Zamora encounter. In response, Colgate wrote, I have good 500 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:31,480 Speaker 1: indication of student who engineered hoax. Student has left now. 501 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:35,200 Speaker 1: Lonnie Zamora always stuck to his story, and by all accounts, 502 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:41,400 Speaker 1: Lonnie Zamora was a straight up, straightforward guy. He was honest, 503 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:44,640 Speaker 1: he was patriotic, he loved his family, he was a good, 504 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 1: strong member of the community. Literally, I've never heard anyone 505 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,560 Speaker 1: say anything bad about the guy, that he was unreliable, 506 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,080 Speaker 1: and not for a minute do I claim that he 507 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:57,239 Speaker 1: was lying or making anything up. Nevertheless, if the word 508 00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,359 Speaker 1: gets out that you were hoaxed, most of us are 509 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:04,320 Speaker 1: more likely to kind of double down on our original 510 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 1: story than to admit that we were hoaxed and fooled 511 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,719 Speaker 1: by a bunch of snot nosed jerky kids at this university. 512 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,280 Speaker 1: The balloon idea had been floated earlier in the files 513 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:18,640 Speaker 1: and dismissed in part because the winds that day were 514 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:23,080 Speaker 1: blowing opposite the direction that the object took. There was 515 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:26,040 Speaker 1: also speculation about whether a car could have towed the 516 00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:31,720 Speaker 1: balloon as Dunning describes, but that was similarly doubted because 517 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,840 Speaker 1: the expectation was that a car would have kicked up dust, 518 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,880 Speaker 1: and there was no report of dust nor retire tracks 519 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:44,959 Speaker 1: from a TOKR found at the scene. In April letter 520 00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:49,560 Speaker 1: to Donald Menzel at the Harvard Observatory, heim Nick expressed 521 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:54,160 Speaker 1: skepticism about a hoax, and he tells this anecdote which 522 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:59,239 Speaker 1: seems to address the explanation voiced by Dunning. The path 523 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,160 Speaker 1: once told me of an instance in which some college 524 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,759 Speaker 1: students wanted to get even with the geology professor, so 525 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:10,680 Speaker 1: they planted a quote meteorite unquote and contrived an explosion 526 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:13,040 Speaker 1: at some instant part of the state, and had this 527 00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:18,120 Speaker 1: poor professor running around ragged chasing a meteor right. The perpetrators, however, 528 00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,200 Speaker 1: were caught and expelled from school because they simply couldn't 529 00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:25,640 Speaker 1: keep their secret. They quote confided unquote to friends, who 530 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:29,560 Speaker 1: in turn confided to others. And there you are. So 531 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,920 Speaker 1: where does this leave us? The case has never been 532 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:39,239 Speaker 1: conclusively solved. As Brian Dunning says, the Lonnie Zamora story is. 533 00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:42,160 Speaker 1: You'll find it as one of the foundational stones in 534 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:47,359 Speaker 1: any book about UFO stories. In the end, you are 535 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:52,080 Speaker 1: left with a credible witness, but only one. The physical 536 00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:56,279 Speaker 1: evidence is scant. The description of the vehicle and egg 537 00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,520 Speaker 1: on stilts seems like something you'd see on a science 538 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:03,520 Speaker 1: fiction movie or television show more than an actual craft 539 00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:08,799 Speaker 1: from an advanced civilization. But the alternative explanations aren't without 540 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:13,320 Speaker 1: their flaws. I find myself agreeing with Dunning because I 541 00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:17,000 Speaker 1: can imagine entire tracks being missed in the desert, or 542 00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:19,520 Speaker 1: the search for them taking place after the wind and 543 00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:23,480 Speaker 1: the weather had obscured them. That seems more likely to 544 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,080 Speaker 1: me than a visit by a craft from a different 545 00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:31,239 Speaker 1: planet or, in Jim Peniston's view, a different time. In 546 00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:36,000 Speaker 1: the letter to Menzel Heineck offered his thoughts a year 547 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:39,840 Speaker 1: after the encounter, it seems much more likely to me 548 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,120 Speaker 1: that he saw a strange test craft which is super secret. 549 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:46,239 Speaker 1: The flaws in this reasoning or that if it is 550 00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:49,359 Speaker 1: so secret, why would anyone be landing a half mile 551 00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:53,440 Speaker 1: south of a town. Why also have we been unable 552 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:57,480 Speaker 1: to an earth from various agencies any classified clues as 553 00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:01,600 Speaker 1: such going on? And that's probably the best place to 554 00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:05,399 Speaker 1: leave it. With the caveat that the default position here 555 00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:09,840 Speaker 1: is not an extraterrestrial craft. There is no evidence that 556 00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:13,360 Speaker 1: this is the case. There is simply a sighting, and 557 00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:17,720 Speaker 1: in the absence of a definitive explanation, the most likely 558 00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:23,680 Speaker 1: possible solutions. What this undoubtedly was was another story in 559 00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:27,600 Speaker 1: a growing litany of such stories that seemed to indicate 560 00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:30,719 Speaker 1: that there was something going on in our skies that 561 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:35,960 Speaker 1: the government either couldn't explain or was keeping secret. Heinek 562 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:40,560 Speaker 1: acknowledged this in his letter to Donald Menzel. There is 563 00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,319 Speaker 1: no question that a mighty folklore is being built up 564 00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:46,879 Speaker 1: in this whole field. Someday it might be worth while 565 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:49,879 Speaker 1: to document all this for the benefit of historians who 566 00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:54,280 Speaker 1: will look back at the era. Two years later, another 567 00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:58,040 Speaker 1: piece of this folklore would be born in Michigan, an 568 00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:01,480 Speaker 1: event that would come to symbolize the public's distrust over 569 00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:06,240 Speaker 1: the government handling of UFO reports and shake Alan Heineck's 570 00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:09,040 Speaker 1: belief in the work he was doing for the Air Force. 571 00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:14,920 Speaker 1: Hi Nick, the Air Force's skeptical scientists investigator, would become 572 00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:25,719 Speaker 1: a believer next time on Strange Arrivals. Strange Arrivals is 573 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:28,440 Speaker 1: a production of I Heeart three D audio and Grimm 574 00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:31,480 Speaker 1: and mild from Aaron Manky. This episode was written and 575 00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:34,840 Speaker 1: hosted by Toby Ball and produced by Miranda Hawkins and 576 00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:39,480 Speaker 1: Josh Thame, with executive producers Alex Williams, Matt Frederick, and 577 00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:43,239 Speaker 1: Aaron Manky, and special thanks to Wendy Connors, creator of 578 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:47,240 Speaker 1: the Faded Discs archive of UFO related audio on archive 579 00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:50,719 Speaker 1: dot org. Learn more about Strange Rivals over at grimm 580 00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:54,360 Speaker 1: and mild dot com, and find more podcasts from My 581 00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:58,399 Speaker 1: heart Radio by visiting the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 582 00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:00,640 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite chows