WEBVTT - Sam Adler-Bell & Stephen Vladeck 0:00:00.640 --> 0:00:04.160 Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:07.160 where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 0:00:07.160 --> 0:00:11.840 today's best minds, and former Congressman George Santos has been 0:00:11.880 --> 0:00:16.680 sentenced to eighty seven months in prison. We have such 0:00:16.720 --> 0:00:20.400 a great show for you today. Know your enemy is 0:00:21.000 --> 0:00:27.120 Sam Adler. Bell stops by to talk about the arrest 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:32.040 of the Wisconsin judge and all the authoritarian fuckery. Then 0:00:32.200 --> 0:00:37.159 we'll talk to the Shadow Docket author Stephen Vladdock about 0:00:37.320 --> 0:00:40.559 whether or not the Trump administration can do that legally. 0:00:40.920 --> 0:00:44.000 Spoiler they cannot, Samali. 0:00:44.840 --> 0:00:49.280 I think we have seen a new aggression in Trump's 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:53.479 authoritarian rule. Cash Pattel announced that they're going to bring 0:00:53.479 --> 0:00:57.040 a judge up on obstruction charges, and Pam Bondi has 0:00:57.080 --> 0:00:57.560 doubled down. 0:00:57.640 --> 0:00:59.320 Let's hear what she has to say. 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:01.600 To our judiciary is beyond me. 0:01:01.920 --> 0:01:04.919 So when the American public hears this and they think 0:01:05.280 --> 0:01:09.080 these were once substanding people in their communities and their 0:01:09.240 --> 0:01:12.520 professions and they put it all on the line for this, 0:01:13.720 --> 0:01:17.280 Have you dug into their motive, like what inspired them 0:01:17.800 --> 0:01:19.800 to carry out these acts? 0:01:19.840 --> 0:01:22.200 In harbor criminals? They're deranged. 0:01:22.200 --> 0:01:25.120 It's all I can think of I cannot believe. I 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:27.600 think some of these judges think they are beyond and 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:30.520 above the law, and they are not. And we're sending 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:34.360 a very strong message today. If you are harboring a fugitive, 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:36.959 we don't care who you are. If you are helping 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:40.360 hide one, if you are giving a TDA member guns, 0:01:40.400 --> 0:01:43.039 anyone who is illegally in this country, we will come 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:44.800 after you and we will prosecute you. 0:01:44.800 --> 0:01:49.120 You know, the false equivalency here is staggering. If you're 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:53.560 giving somebody guns or trying to keep them from being 0:01:54.000 --> 0:02:00.600 arrested by ICE goons who are not wearing police costs. Right, 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:03.840 Like we've seen these videos of these ICE members in 0:02:03.960 --> 0:02:08.440 playing clothes. They arrested a student in a hedge job 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:11.880 because she'd written an op ed. You'll remember that that 0:02:12.000 --> 0:02:16.320 happened in Boston. So look, man, First of all, being 0:02:16.320 --> 0:02:19.360 in this country illegally was not a crime. It was 0:02:19.400 --> 0:02:23.240 not a criminalized crime until Donald Trump made it so 0:02:23.600 --> 0:02:26.720 right before that, it was a civil crime. That's number one. 0:02:27.320 --> 0:02:32.360 Number two, ICE was not supposed to go to courthouses. 0:02:32.440 --> 0:02:34.880 That's a new Trump thing. I mean, this is the 0:02:34.960 --> 0:02:38.680 thing about this administration. They're changing laws really fast and 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:41.280 saying that it's Democrats who are doing something wrong. But 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:44.680 all of these are new laws, right, like that ice 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:47.799 can go to schools, that ice can go to courthouses, 0:02:47.840 --> 0:02:51.560 that ice can go to hospitals. And then they're losing 0:02:51.600 --> 0:02:55.000 in the courts. So you'll remember that this Supreme Court, 0:02:55.040 --> 0:02:58.080 which is the most conservative court ever, the one that 0:02:58.320 --> 0:03:02.480 overturned Roe v. Wade, a nineteen seventy three statute. This 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:06.639 Supreme Court ruled nine zero that even if you're not 0:03:06.720 --> 0:03:09.120 a citizen, you still have the right to do process. 0:03:09.320 --> 0:03:12.639 Think about that for a minute. Okay, Trump administration had 0:03:12.639 --> 0:03:15.800 said migrants, illegal immigrants do not have the right to 0:03:15.840 --> 0:03:18.639 do process. Well, guess what the fucking Supreme Court said 0:03:18.680 --> 0:03:22.600 they do. So let me tell you something. Pambondi may 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:27.640 be very pretty, but she is wrong, and she's wrong. 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:31.160 These are not people doing criminal activities. These are people 0:03:31.639 --> 0:03:34.120 listening to their consciences. And here is a moment in 0:03:34.160 --> 0:03:37.200 American life where we all know that what the Trump 0:03:37.200 --> 0:03:42.200 administration is doing is wrong and often illegal. And you'll remember, 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:44.920 the Supreme Court said that Donald Trump needed to bring 0:03:45.000 --> 0:03:49.600 back Garcia, right, and he has not brought back Garcia. 0:03:49.920 --> 0:03:53.120 He's in Seacott in El Salvador, and had he not 0:03:53.280 --> 0:03:55.680 been sent there, none of this would have happened. So 0:03:55.920 --> 0:04:00.560 do not comply. Peacefully pushback. The lesson from Harvard can 0:04:00.560 --> 0:04:02.800 be a lesson to all of us, which is none 0:04:02.800 --> 0:04:05.880 of this is legal, none of this is okay. You 0:04:05.960 --> 0:04:08.320 need to stand up, just like this judge did. The 0:04:08.440 --> 0:04:11.720 chances that this judge ends up in jail are zero 0:04:12.000 --> 0:04:16.000 because this is crazy, because this administration is acting in 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:19.720 a way that is illegal and there should be no 0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:22.720 question about it. And she can say whatever she wants 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:24.440 on Fox News, but we all know the truth. 0:04:24.839 --> 0:04:26.960 Yes, And speaking of the truth, Molly. 0:04:27.200 --> 0:04:30.920 Many people are saying that mister Trump in his one 0:04:31.000 --> 0:04:35.080 hundred Days interview with Time Magazine was not sounding like 0:04:35.200 --> 0:04:38.240 his mental faculties are so good. They did not sound 0:04:38.279 --> 0:04:40.240 like they're the greatest. They did not sound like they're 0:04:40.240 --> 0:04:42.880 the greatest ever. They did not sound like they're doing great. 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:44.240 Everybody's saying this. 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:48.800 It's pretty funny, though. I Mean, the one thing I 0:04:48.839 --> 0:04:52.159 will say is it's amazing. So when you listen to 0:04:52.920 --> 0:04:56.640 Trump's incredible. Actually, I was on the train going to 0:04:56.680 --> 0:04:59.200 the District of Columbia today and I listened to the 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:04.640 Time magazine they publish the entire transcript, And I implore 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:08.800 you listen to a Trump transcript, because you forget when 0:05:08.960 --> 0:05:12.239 when journalists right about Trump, they never make him sound 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:15.039 quite as bat shit as he really does in real life. 0:05:15.120 --> 0:05:19.640 And when you put his ramblings together, it is just 0:05:19.960 --> 0:05:24.760 incredible stuff. So do yourself a favor. Take a few 0:05:24.800 --> 0:05:27.839 minutes to listen to that Time magazine transcript of Donald 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:31.400 Trump saying things like, I mean, basically, the man thinks 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:34.880 Jerome Pal is responsible for all his problems. And let 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:37.480 me tell you a secret, Jerome Pal is very much 0:05:37.600 --> 0:05:40.000 non responsible for all of Donald Trump's problems. 0:05:40.160 --> 0:05:43.480 Yeah, I think that that's his own bad instincts. Speaking 0:05:43.520 --> 0:05:46.960 of his own bad instincts. When asked about a millionaire 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:50.440 tax hike, Trump said, I love the concept, but it 0:05:50.480 --> 0:05:52.080 may not be acceptable to the public. 0:05:52.520 --> 0:05:55.880 Get the public. That public is not your problem, honey. 0:05:56.360 --> 0:06:00.280 Your problem is your donors and yourself should be a 0:06:00.320 --> 0:06:03.560 millionaire tax apps fucking looney. But is Donald Trump going 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:05.560 to do it? No fucking why. I mean, the man 0:06:05.760 --> 0:06:08.640 was put in the job to extend the tax cut. 0:06:08.920 --> 0:06:12.039 You know, there's one smart person in this entire administration, 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:15.119 and his name is Steve Bannon and Steve Bannon knows 0:06:15.120 --> 0:06:17.640 that if you passed a millionaire's tax, it would be 0:06:17.720 --> 0:06:22.120 incredibly good for this administration because then Democrats couldn't push 0:06:22.160 --> 0:06:23.600 back on a lot of stuff. But you know what's 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:24.880 going to happen, not that. 0:06:25.320 --> 0:06:26.560 I got to disagree with you. 0:06:26.640 --> 0:06:29.800 I think he's going to adopt big structural bailly from 0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:32.200 Elizabeth Ward, and he's going to take the two petties 0:06:32.240 --> 0:06:34.000 and he's going to text the millionaires just like you 0:06:34.080 --> 0:06:34.440 said it. 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:37.480 Yes, he's the millionaires and the billionaires. 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:37.960 Yeah. 0:06:38.040 --> 0:06:41.520 You know who he looks to for policy proposals, Elizabeth Warren. 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:45.560 He loves Elizabeth Warren. Yeah, No, that is not happening. 0:06:46.160 --> 0:06:49.279 We would be remiss, though, to say that nearly every 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:53.200 poll on this subject shows that has overwhelming support by 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:54.080 large margins. 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:55.360 We very rarely see. 0:06:55.880 --> 0:07:01.000 No, this is absolutely true. But there is absolutely no way. 0:07:01.800 --> 0:07:08.640 There's zero chance that Donald Trump enacts progressive taxation. Zero chance. 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:11.280 And by the way, this is like one of these 0:07:11.320 --> 0:07:14.520 things where even reporting on it is kind of malpracticed 0:07:14.560 --> 0:07:18.679 because the whole ethos of the Republican Party is letting 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:23.280 their friends get away with stuff. So whatever, sure, okay, 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:24.160 it's not happening. 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:30.520 Crony capitalism is the brand, yeah, Cronyism and stupidity is 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:30.880 the brand. 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:32.480 Yeah. Yeah. 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:36.040 So the DNC, who we let's be honest, where you 0:07:36.080 --> 0:07:39.080 worry about which direction they're heading in, have given a 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:42.960 pretty good indicator to us that they're maybe getting a 0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:47.240 clue since they are now embracing formerd DNC chair Howard 0:07:47.280 --> 0:07:49.880 Dean's fifty state strategy and they say they're going to 0:07:50.040 --> 0:07:51.080 organize everywhere. 0:07:51.440 --> 0:07:54.600 Don't they always embrace the fifty state strategy. 0:07:54.680 --> 0:07:58.440 Hasn't that been Robert Manuel said absolutely not. Fuck that, 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:02.520 under no circumstance. That was the Howard Dean ram Emanuel War. 0:08:02.560 --> 0:08:06.040 Okay, I mean I don't know. I mean yes, listen, 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:09.560 I love Howard Dean. He's a frequent guest of this podcast. 0:08:09.880 --> 0:08:11.600 Do I think that they should do it? Of course 0:08:11.640 --> 0:08:14.280 they should do a fucking but Trump's polling is now 0:08:14.560 --> 0:08:17.040 almost lower than it was in his first administration when 0:08:17.040 --> 0:08:19.600 we had COVID and none of us could leave the house. Okay, 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:22.800 he is crashing and burning, and Democrats, it would be 0:08:22.880 --> 0:08:27.840 malpracticed not to run someone in every fucking seat. That's Oklahoma, 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:32.840 that's Ohio, that's all of those red state seats because 0:08:32.880 --> 0:08:37.360 the truth is Trump is not a good candidate. He's 0:08:37.440 --> 0:08:41.360 running a wildly unpopular agenda. I think it's very likely 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:44.160 we're going to see why we have a government regulation 0:08:44.640 --> 0:08:47.680 to avoid the kind of catastrophes that ineverently are going 0:08:47.760 --> 0:08:50.160 to happen when you don't have government regulation. 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:51.480 Sounds right to me. 0:08:56.120 --> 0:08:59.320 Sam Adler bel is the co host of the famous 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:05.000 Know You're Enemy podcast. Welcome to Fast Politics, Sam. 0:09:04.800 --> 0:09:06.840 Hi, great to be here, Great to meet you. 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:10.080 Yeah, it's great to meet you. I think of you 0:09:10.160 --> 0:09:13.000 as like just a very smart person who is good 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:13.600 at talking. 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:15.040 Oh that's good. 0:09:15.280 --> 0:09:17.720 I hope I live up to your expectations. You set 0:09:17.760 --> 0:09:19.120 the bar high for your listeners. 0:09:19.480 --> 0:09:21.440 I think we have to talk about this. So they 0:09:21.520 --> 0:09:27.360 arrested a judge in Wisconsin. She's a county judge elected partisan. 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:32.880 But here's the real I feel like this concerning truth. 0:09:33.200 --> 0:09:37.520 She's partisan in that she believes that people should rule 0:09:37.559 --> 0:09:40.440 of lights right. She believes in the rule, but she 0:09:40.440 --> 0:09:44.680 also believes like people should have rights even if they 0:09:44.760 --> 0:09:48.160 are not in this country legally, which is also something 0:09:48.200 --> 0:09:52.080 that our very conservative Supreme Court believes. So make it 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:52.640 make sense. 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:56.840 Yeah, that is just any abstract something that's very concerning 0:09:56.880 --> 0:09:59.319 about this political moment that you can that we all 0:09:59.320 --> 0:10:02.280 would have to agree. Yeah, well, she's a partisan, But 0:10:02.400 --> 0:10:06.199 what that means nowadays is that one party cares at 0:10:06.240 --> 0:10:12.040 all about the rules, norms, laws, constitutional legality, and one 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:16.520 of them does not. And so what does nonpartisan mean anymore? 0:10:17.240 --> 0:10:20.280 I find it pretty disturbing. I don't know the details 0:10:20.280 --> 0:10:23.880 of this case. What were the circumstances of her arrest? 0:10:24.040 --> 0:10:25.720 I mean, I read the headlines. 0:10:25.840 --> 0:10:28.880 So the Washington Post has a story. Again, this is 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:31.840 like one of these things where it's a new story, 0:10:32.040 --> 0:10:34.800 it's just reported on so there's more facts coming up. 0:10:34.840 --> 0:10:37.240 But the Washington Post had a story on it. She 0:10:38.400 --> 0:10:42.200 was in trouble because she had an illegal immigrant in 0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:46.880 her courtroom for a battery charge, which is not related 0:10:46.920 --> 0:10:51.440 to his This is like, again, these are the results 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:55.880 of criminalizing what has not been until the Trump administration 0:10:56.040 --> 0:11:00.719 a criminal activity, which is being in this country legally, right. 0:11:00.800 --> 0:11:05.680 That was not a criminal activity until trump Ism criminalized it. 0:11:05.679 --> 0:11:08.559 It was not a criminal activity, and now it is. 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:13.080 So this judge who let this man go out a 0:11:13.120 --> 0:11:16.280 different door because Ice was waiting outside of the courtroom 0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:20.679 to get him again, something that is a new Trump phenomenon, 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:25.160 having ice allowed in federal or state court hases, and 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:29.640 he was chased down by ice that arrested. These aren't 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:33.880 these same ICE agents who we've seen arresting people, you know, 0:11:33.920 --> 0:11:38.280 wearing plain clothes covering their faces. There may be some connection. 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:42.280 Some of them are connected to local militias, right, we 0:11:42.360 --> 0:11:45.480 saw that in reporting in the Washington Post. She has 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:48.520 been arrested now. So the question is all of these 0:11:48.559 --> 0:11:52.560 are new circumstances brought to bear because of trump Ism, 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:57.680 because Trump has changed the designation of certain crimes. But 0:11:57.800 --> 0:12:01.080 the question is like does this mean and again, this 0:12:01.200 --> 0:12:03.240 is like yet another moment of like are we on 0:12:03.280 --> 0:12:06.439 a constitutional grisis? Ice is certainly acting in a way 0:12:06.480 --> 0:12:09.080 they did not act with any other president ever. 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:12.760 Yeah, And the kinds of situations where you don't know 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:15.880 how dire or how far along the path to full 0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:21.440 authoritarianism we are produces these kinds of moments where someone 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:24.280 like this judge or someone else in a position of 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:27.880 momentary authority over somebody else's life, has to make this 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:31.960 decision like, well do I trust this you know, like 0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:37.480 pseudo gestapo to treat this person according to the law 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:40.960 or according to their human rights. And I think increasingly 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:43.959 we're seeing situations where, you know, in an encouraging way, 0:12:44.000 --> 0:12:47.160 people make a decision that's like, no, this is an 0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:50.680 extreme circumstance, and it demands a kind of moral courage 0:12:51.200 --> 0:12:55.400 that would seem to be norm breaking in another circumstance. 0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:57.840 I'm not saying that that's necessarily true about this judge. 0:12:57.840 --> 0:12:59.880 I don't know the details, but what it reminds me 0:12:59.880 --> 0:13:03.040 of is just in the first Trump administration, there were 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:06.559 also circumstances where people, you know, were kind of they 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:10.559 felt the need to do something extreme to protect against 0:13:10.840 --> 0:13:13.480 an extreme behavior by the administration. But then there was 0:13:13.520 --> 0:13:18.280 this very strong impulse that, well, if we break norms 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:21.520 in reaction to their norm breaking, are we just setting 0:13:21.559 --> 0:13:26.359 up this kind of inevitable you know, domino chain decline 0:13:26.440 --> 0:13:30.319 of consecutive norm breaking. I feel like, and I never 0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:33.520 really got there in the first administration. I'm here now. 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:36.800 I'm there now that we really kind of are out 0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:40.280 in the breach. We're in a very, very very dire 0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:44.520 situation where the kinds of choices people have to make 0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:47.760 about what's normal and not normal to do. I think 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:51.560 those things are changing. You see it with the universities, 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:54.040 for example, who are first kind of like, all right, 0:13:54.120 --> 0:13:57.640 you know, come on campus. Sure, uh, you know, detain 0:13:57.800 --> 0:14:00.240 these students. Sure we'll make a deal with you or whatever. 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:03.719 But then it becomes clear that no, this isn't this 0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:08.560 isn't a normal administration. It isn't just new people in 0:14:08.679 --> 0:14:12.120 charge with different values. It's getting very very dire and 0:14:12.240 --> 0:14:15.080 very very bleak. And you know, it used to be 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:17.880 that when we talked this way in the first administration, 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:21.920 and I did, sometimes we were accused of having trumped 0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:26.040 arrangement syndrome or having some kind of secret, unstated wish, 0:14:26.400 --> 0:14:28.880 a wish for there to be a real authoritarian situation. 0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:31.400 But actually this is just kind of a normal, very 0:14:31.440 --> 0:14:34.520 bad Republican administration. It's not so different. But I just 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:38.280 don't think that story stands up anymore, because it seems 0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:41.320 very clear that they are willing to go all the 0:14:41.320 --> 0:14:44.440 way in every single direction and on every single issue, 0:14:44.480 --> 0:14:48.400 all at once. That just changes the situation. 0:14:48.480 --> 0:14:49.960 As far as I'm concerned. 0:14:49.960 --> 0:14:53.240 I vacillate between being like, these guys are so stupid. 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:58.600 It's great. Here they are arresting a judge in Wisconsin, right, Wisconsin, 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:03.960 where they just love lost a judicial election that Elon 0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:09.640 mush put in thirty million dollars. Okay, So like, obviously 0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:12.720 Wisconsin is going to be a place, it's a purple 0:15:12.760 --> 0:15:15.800 state where this kind of thing is going to stand 0:15:15.840 --> 0:15:20.280 out in a way that it wouldn't in say, are Medillo, Texas, 0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:24.720 Like you could arrest whoever you want in Texas's first district. 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:27.560 I mean I heard ones from a member of Congress 0:15:27.560 --> 0:15:30.840 who was running for office there that they didn't open 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:35.440 the polls on time and that he had seen Proud 0:15:35.480 --> 0:15:39.359 Boys around the area or some kind of neo militia. 0:15:39.720 --> 0:15:42.440 Like it's a huge country. There is a lot of 0:15:42.520 --> 0:15:46.040 room for this federal government to do in crazy stuff. 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:51.040 But when you do it in Wisconsin to a partisan 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:55.280 Democrat who has been elected, and I mean, I just 0:15:55.320 --> 0:15:58.960 think they constantly do things which are like if you 0:15:59.040 --> 0:16:03.239 wanted to enact authoritarianism the way they have in Hungary, 0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:05.920 there is a playbook for that, and it's slow. 0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:09.520 No, I think that's right. I mean it's always been 0:16:09.560 --> 0:16:13.320 weird with Trump to feel and with Trump World and 0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:16.840 the Mega movement to feel like our greatest protection against 0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:21.600 their you know, most extreme designs is their incompetence and 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:22.520 their recklessness. 0:16:22.680 --> 0:16:23.960 But that may be the case. 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:26.600 I mean, that's clearly the case right now with the 0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:29.400 trade war, which is just not going to be popular, 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:32.680 and it is definitely they're definitely shooting themselves in the foot. 0:16:32.840 --> 0:16:35.400 It's definitely the reason that his numbers are going down. 0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:38.200 I just think it's obvious, and you just have to 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:41.000 you know, it's just crazy to be in a situation 0:16:41.040 --> 0:16:44.000 where we're like, oh, thank goodness, these people are idiots, 0:16:44.280 --> 0:16:47.840 because obviously there are situations where their recklessness is totally 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:52.760 consonant with their dangerousness. But I agree, I agree with 0:16:52.800 --> 0:16:55.320 you about that. I take your point very much about 0:16:55.560 --> 0:16:58.280 if they were wanted to do this right, you know, 0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:02.440 which to say, to do it successfully and strategically. You know, 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:05.560 if they wanted to really fundamentally change this country without 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:09.560 igniting some kind of you know, resistance movement and resistance 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:13.399 from the institutions of this country, you know, they would 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:17.000 have started slow, and they would have built on the 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:20.479 license and the kind of sense of you know, that 0:17:20.520 --> 0:17:22.959 period of time right after he was elected, when Democrats 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:24.919 were like, ah, well, I guess this is just a 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:27.040 conservative country. We're just going to have to go along 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:29.920 with it, you know, people saying, let's make deals where 0:17:29.920 --> 0:17:32.719 we can work with these people, let's face the facts, 0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:37.320 you know, taking that moment of kind of legitimacy and 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:39.920 building on it by doing things that were really popular 0:17:39.960 --> 0:17:44.280 for a while and kind of magnanimous even, and that 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:48.920 then you can gradually turn the screws on the authoritarian agenda. 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:51.199 But they didn't do it that way. They went with 0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:54.439 this other thing. And it's just a weird situation to 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:57.040 be in because I'm simultaneously relieved that they're doing it 0:17:57.080 --> 0:18:02.080 so recklessly and also made absolutely crazy by the kind 0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:04.520 of ferocity of it and the feeling that you just 0:18:04.600 --> 0:18:06.399 never know what they're going to do. Oh, the FBI 0:18:06.800 --> 0:18:08.760 director is going to get on Twitter and said we 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:12.280 arrested a judge, or like, are you so happy? Aren't 0:18:12.280 --> 0:18:13.040 you so thrilled? 0:18:13.240 --> 0:18:13.560 Ohn? 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:15.040 And then he deletes it. 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:17.680 I know my sense was that he deleted it because 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:20.720 he said in the post we believe that she did this, 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:23.200 or that it's like, Okay, you arrested at judge because 0:18:23.240 --> 0:18:27.160 you heard something that's a pretty extreme thing to do. 0:18:27.680 --> 0:18:30.320 But yeah, I'm with you. There's just it's just it's 0:18:30.359 --> 0:18:33.400 a whiplash though, to feel like relieved that they're more 0:18:33.440 --> 0:18:35.680 reckless and stupid than you could possibly have imagined. 0:18:36.080 --> 0:18:38.679 Yes, I agree it's a whiplash, but it's also I 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:41.200 want to get back to the tariffs, because the tariffs 0:18:41.240 --> 0:18:48.200 are the single thing Like ten Griffin, Okay, major Republican donor, 0:18:48.600 --> 0:18:52.639 biggest donor of the cycle, did not donate to Trump, 0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:57.760 but donated to every other Republican you've ever thought of, 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:01.560 or dreamed of or knew of. It was like Donald 0:19:01.600 --> 0:19:03.840 Trump is ru I mean, I want to find the 0:19:03.960 --> 0:19:07.000 Ken Griffin quote because I feel like it's one of 0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:09.920 these things where it's like, now, he didn't really say that, 0:19:10.240 --> 0:19:12.840 but he really did say that in fact, and even 0:19:13.000 --> 0:19:17.919 like the cover of the Economist, right, this is the Economist, Okay, 0:19:18.119 --> 0:19:22.240 the woke Economist. This is like not the nation says 0:19:22.440 --> 0:19:25.679 only one three hundred and sixty one days to go, 0:19:25.760 --> 0:19:27.439 and then it has a picture of like a bald 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:30.280 eagle that looks like it's been through what we've all 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:32.800 been through in the last almost one hundred days. 0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:36.240 Yeah, yeah, no, it's true. I mean again, there's another 0:19:36.840 --> 0:19:41.320 irony of feeling like the saviors of our republic are 0:19:41.359 --> 0:19:44.600 going to have to be like bond traders and Wall Street, 0:19:44.880 --> 0:19:47.320 you know. As a socialist myself, I'm kind of like, 0:19:47.480 --> 0:19:50.520 oh god, yes, okay, they're coming to our rescue, the 0:19:50.560 --> 0:19:53.639 people who just move money around and make money. But 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:56.920 it's true that they really just they got out over 0:19:56.960 --> 0:19:57.720 their skis. 0:19:57.960 --> 0:20:00.040 I'm going to read this to you because I I 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:01.960 feel like I'm sorry to do this. I know you're 0:20:01.960 --> 0:20:05.119 a socialist. One of my kids is a Marxist. My 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:08.760 husband's like a blue Anon capitalist, so he's like, we're 0:20:08.800 --> 0:20:10.000 going to fix Americay. 0:20:10.080 --> 0:20:12.840 True, Hey, it takes all types, you know, right. 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:14.240 We have it all. And then I have a never 0:20:14.280 --> 0:20:19.000 Trump Republican. I have one good kid. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. 0:20:19.000 --> 0:20:21.280 I have lots of good kids. The United States was 0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:24.560 more than just a nation. It's a brand. Okay, I'm 0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:27.800 sure you love this. It's a universal brand, whether it's 0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:30.840 our contraur or financial strength or military strength. It was 0:20:30.920 --> 0:20:33.399 like an aspiration post of the world. We're eroding that 0:20:33.640 --> 0:20:37.600 brand right now, Okay. Like, I mean, I'm sorry, but 0:20:37.640 --> 0:20:41.679 if you're a Republican donor of saying that, like stick deal. 0:20:42.119 --> 0:20:44.760 Yeah, I mean it makes me wonder about and this 0:20:44.840 --> 0:20:47.680 is we can only speculate about, but like, what are 0:20:47.680 --> 0:20:52.480 the circumstances that have made them so hubristic? Is it 0:20:52.720 --> 0:20:57.200 just that the goal of surrounding him with only yes 0:20:57.880 --> 0:21:01.520 men and women and the goal of you know, retribution 0:21:01.840 --> 0:21:05.679 being the kind of like you know, the reason you 0:21:05.720 --> 0:21:10.280 know for his presidency. Is it just that there's nobody going, hey, 0:21:10.320 --> 0:21:12.560 wait a mang ad minute, that the bond markets are 0:21:12.560 --> 0:21:15.520 going to freak out if we do this now, like 0:21:15.840 --> 0:21:19.000 Ken Griffin, people don't always answer his calls or like, 0:21:19.080 --> 0:21:22.040 what is it? What is it that creates this license 0:21:22.040 --> 0:21:24.119 in their minds that makes them think that they can 0:21:24.160 --> 0:21:24.880 get away with it? 0:21:25.280 --> 0:21:28.200 You know what Trump did was he scared these people, 0:21:28.240 --> 0:21:30.000 and they were scared of him. I mean that's like 0:21:30.000 --> 0:21:33.040 like Lisa Murkowski. They don't want the mean tweets. They 0:21:33.080 --> 0:21:35.280 don't want to have to pay for security, they don't 0:21:35.320 --> 0:21:38.800 want Maga one two three coming outside their house with 0:21:38.840 --> 0:21:41.840 a gun. Like actually think about this a lot, and you, 0:21:41.880 --> 0:21:43.679 as a student of history, I actually wanted to talk 0:21:43.720 --> 0:21:46.679 to you about this. Which is so My grandfather was 0:21:46.920 --> 0:21:50.520 jailed by the House in an American activity, Howard Fast 0:21:50.720 --> 0:21:53.480 and he was a communist. Refused to name names not 0:21:54.040 --> 0:22:00.360 a particularly brave guy, right, not, but did the thing 0:22:00.440 --> 0:22:03.399 in that moment. I believe that part of how we 0:22:03.480 --> 0:22:07.159 got here is that, like we are just in modern life, 0:22:07.640 --> 0:22:10.760 we are not used to bravery of any sort. 0:22:10.880 --> 0:22:12.480 Yeah, yeah, yeah, what. 0:22:12.359 --> 0:22:14.320 Do you think about that? Because if you look at 0:22:14.359 --> 0:22:16.200 like this sort of the last. 0:22:15.920 --> 0:22:18.960 Fifty years, Yeah, there's a lot of different ways to 0:22:19.000 --> 0:22:22.400 go to tackle this, but like I generally think that, yeah, 0:22:22.440 --> 0:22:25.840 the kind of resources that we have as a political 0:22:25.880 --> 0:22:32.639 and moral culture for rewarding true bravery, moral courage, selflessness 0:22:32.920 --> 0:22:35.680